Battle Balance Adjustment: TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill

[Bayohne]

Since increasing the level cap to 99, we have been making systematic adjustments to jobs, battles and various other parameters.

The reason being that since our original plan was to maintain the level cap at 75, it was necessary to make adjustments to allow continued growth up to level 99 and to be able to add other types of new content.

We plan on addressing the following three issues with the next round of adjustments.


Resistance to Enfeebling Magic
We will be removing the instances of enfeebling magic not taking effect on monsters and HNMs that have resistance to specific elements. A very small number of special monsters will maintain the ability to completely resist enfeeblement, but it will become possible to cast enfeebling spells on most monsters that used to resist outright.
※Spells will not take effect every time and spells may still be resisted if your enfeebling skill is low. Monsters with high resistance will be enfeebled for a shorter amount of time.



Cure Potency
Cure potency will be affected more significantly by healing magic skill. If a player has high healing magic skill, cure potency will be greatly increased, but low healing magic skill will have almost no effect on cure potency. The effect of skill level on cure potency will vary based on the type of cure, but cures lower than Cure V will be affected the most. Note that Curaga, Cura and Waltzes will not be affected.

Cure I-IV: Up to 1.4 times the normal cure potency
Cure V-VI: Almost no change

With this adjustment combined with the increase of cure potency mentioned earlier (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20089), we would like to increase opportunities for mages jobs other than white mage to serve as healers.



TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill
We will be adjusting the specs of save TP so that it serves as the minimum possible TP amount gained through using a weaponskill. In other words, the greater the amount of TP gained through the weaponskill and the save TP value itself will be the actual TP gained.

For example:

Save TP value is 20, TP gained through the weaponskill is 25: 25TP
Save TP value is 20, TP gained through the weaponskill is 15: 20TP
Save TP value is 20, weaponskill misses: 20TP

The TP gained after using a weaponskill will be more stable, but there will be fewer instances where players gain a very large amount of TP through one weaponskill. Also, with the adjustments to save TP, samurai’s job ability Hagakure’s save TP effects will be increased.


We would like the discussion in this thread focus on “TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill” exclusively.

For the other two topics, please refer to the following threads:

Resistance to Enfeebling Magic
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20484　
Cure Potency
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20485
　
　

[Spiritreaver]

TP Gained through Use of a Weaponskill
We will be adjusting the specs of save TP so that it serves as the minimum possible TP amount gained through using a weaponskill. In other words, the greater the amount of TP gained through the weaponskill and the save TP value itself will be the actual TP gained.

For example:

Save TP value is 20, TP gained through the weaponskill is 25: 25TP
Save TP value is 20, TP gained through the weaponskill is 15: 20TP
Save TP value is 20, weaponskill misses: 20TP

The TP gained after using a weaponskill will be more stable, but there will be fewer instances where players gain a very large amount of TP through one weaponskill. Also, with the adjustments to save TP, samurai’s job ability Hagakure’s save TP effects will be increased.




Will the developers be adding in gear with "Save TP"+ that DD jobs will have reasonable access to? Or will this ability remain one of limited accessibility(SAM JA, roll from a COR, or atma/atmacite)?

[Byrth]

Save TP would go from being useful to almost useless. It's your move, but this strikes me as a bad decision.

[Insaniac]

I can't figure out if this is an intentional or unintentional SAM buff.

[Greatguardian]

I can't figure out if this is an intentional or unintentional SAM buff.

All SAM buff are intentional SAM buff.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KatanasAreJustBetter

[DarkBass]

Uh... im missing the part where you guys are angry. How exactly is having a minimum amount of tp towards your next weaponskill (the minimum amount being 20, even if you miss) or a getting large amount of tp back sometimes when it connects bad?

[Greatguardian]

Do you not know how Save TP works as of now?

This nerf will effectively castrate Miser's Roll. Even an XI Miser's will not shave off a hit for any 2-hand/ranged DD unless they specifically gear for it, which is stupid and won't happen.

[Glamdring]

Will the developers be adding in gear with "Save TP"+ that DD jobs will have reasonable access to? Or will this ability remain one of limited accessibility(SAM JA, roll from a COR, or atma/atmacite)?

they already have a big one, the weapon made from the weapon skill path in Magian Trials. Noone uses it anymore because they're all about the new weapon skill from an Empy weapon, but the option IS there. Personally, I love my Fusetto +2 on my dancer, and I'll be upgrading it. Also, if they ever do the adjustment to Raja's they mentioned about a year ago to accomodate for the game not being level 75 anymore, there's another one...

[Insaniac]

In case no one picked up on the SAM buff. This nerf takes every 2h DD in VW from a 2-hit to a 3 or 4-hit depending on haste and regain. SAM however drops to a 2 or 3 hit.

If I'm wrong someone please correct me.

[Insaniac]

they already have a big one, the weapon made from the weapon skill path in Magian Trials. Noone uses it anymore because they're all about the new weapon skill from an Empy weapon, but the option IS there. Personally, I love my Fusetto +2 on my dancer, and I'll be upgrading it. Also, if they ever do the adjustment to Raja's they mentioned about a year ago to accomodate for the game not being level 75 anymore, there's another one...That's Store TP, champ.

[Ica]

That's Store TP, champ.

Or TP Bonus maybe? I was confused as well by the post. D:

[Insaniac]

Or TP Bonus maybe? I was confused as well by the post. D:
Rajas doesn't have TP bonus on it.

[SpankWustler]

Uh... im missing the part where you guys are angry. How exactly is having a minimum amount of tp towards your next weaponskill (the minimum amount being 20, even if you miss) or a getting large amount of tp back sometimes when it connects bad?

Before, 20 Save TP would add 20 TP to the TP return from a weaponskill. So, weaponskills could return 40+ TP.

Now, 20 Save TP just sets the minimum TP return to 20 but does not add 20 TP to the weaponskill's normal return. It only has a large effect if the weaponskill misses, which should be about 5% of the time.

The largest effect is on Miser's Roll, since it's the most common source of Save TP. This change makes Miser's Roll alone entirely useless for ranged weapons, effectively useless for two-handed weapons, and a horrible option for one-handed weapons.

[Ica]

Rajas doesn't have TP bonus on it.

Whoops, I was only looking at the part where he was talking about his dagger.

[saevel]

Uh... im missing the part where you guys are angry. How exactly is having a minimum amount of tp towards your next weaponskill (the minimum amount being 20, even if you miss) or a getting large amount of tp back sometimes when it connects bad?

Because previous they used atmacite + Misers Roll to get 40~50+ TP back from WS's. Similiar to the old school Penta SAM builds.

[Insaniac]

You know what would have been a better fix for all this. A cap on Save TP. That way Miser's would have had some use outside of VW. No one is gonna do Miser's outside for a +7-10 TP return on WS with an 11. You know why they didn't do that? Cause it would have hurt SAM every 5 minutes instead of COR all the time. Can we get a buff to Miser's or something? Maybe 30 for a 5 and 40 for an 11? Miser's really turned things around for COR in the useful buff department and now it's being taken away.

[Arek]

If you do this adjustment on Save TP... and increase the SAM JA... Miser's Roll needs also a Buffs !

I was really having fun in Voidwatch as COR those days... Now, I'm a little unconfident for the future. :/

Miser's Roll Buffs please ! >_<

[Vivik]

Thank you SE for essentially making Misers Roll useless outside of Voidwatch. You guys sure have your finger in the pulse of the community. Sometimes I wonder if the producers have ever played the damn game...

[Mirabelle]

After being largely shelved through the Abyssea era I was really starting to enjoy COR in VW. Now they decide to take away the one buff that made up for not having a haste roll. GDI.

Why didn't they just nerf the atmacite instead?

I guess this is karmic retribution for me being secretly glad about the BST TH thing.

Guess I'll just have fun in VW until the nerf hits and then get pigeonholed back to my jobs I don't like playing but others find more useful.

Really SE. Was Anyone unhappy with getting misers roll? Did it really upset game balance that much? Were bands of CORs bullying BRDs at the back of the school bus?

[Economizer]

I wonder how Save TP and Conserve TP will interact with each other in relation to this.

[Ica]

I'm surprised more people aren't expressing unhappiness with this nerf.

[saevel]

I'm surprised more people aren't expressing unhappiness with this nerf.

Their too busy crying over the BST TH nerf. Honestly going from TH2 to TH1 isn't that big a deal, especially if they introduce some sort of gear to compensate.

[Mirabelle]

I'm surprised more people aren't expressing unhappiness with this nerf.

I'm not sure everyone understood Save TP. I think when people realize you go from 65 TP after a WS to 25 TP, they'll be unimpressed. Since most DD parties in VW use a COR for largely this purpose, it won't take them too long to realize this hurts more than a TH nerf to BST. It affects all ranged attackers and 2H significantly.

[Insaniac]

This nerf is also contrary to 2 previous statements made about VW. They want the overall duration of fights to be shorter and they want people with normal gear to be able to participate. How does lowering the potential damage output in VW by a pretty big amount do anything but the exact opposite of those 2 things?

With the addition of auto capped red and blue lights this also means people are going to be more likely to replace lower damage proc jobs with WARs MNKs and SAMs to make up for this new DPS hit. GG working to destroy the few things VW had going for it SE.

[Spiritreaver]

I'm surprised more people aren't expressing unhappiness with this nerf.

Personally hoping for some type of reply to my question before i get emotional one way or the other.

[SpankWustler]

Here I am, finally recovered from a pretty miserable surgery and the condition it cured. Just having gotten back into my routine of exercising and doing stuff productive human beings are expected to do and exposing myself in pubic places, I'm able to really make time for FFXI again.

I had high hopes that I'd be able to use Corsair more these days, and maybe even have a job other than White Mage that I both enjoy and could use to great effect in certain activities.

So much for that.


I wonder how Save TP and Conserve TP will interact with each other in relation to this.

I assume the higher value will still overwrite the lower value, since the change is meant to make Save TP worse rather than better. Oddly enough, the practicality of Conserve TP is increased either way since people are less likely to have a Save TP buff active to overwrite it.


バランス!

[Ica]

With the addition of auto capped red and blue lights this also means people are going to be more likely to replace lower damage proc jobs with WARs MNKs and SAMs to make up for this new DPS hit. GG working to destroy the few things VW had going for it SE.

But that's balanced, right?

[Greatguardian]

I'm surprised more people aren't expressing unhappiness with this nerf.

It's mind boggling. This is a massive nerf to Corsair, and a solid DD nerf to everyone (since it's a nerf to a buffer's buffs). I guess that many people just don't understand how this works in the first place?

[Vivik]

It's mind boggling. This is a massive nerf to Corsair, and a solid DD nerf to everyone (since it's a nerf to a buffer's buffs). I guess that many people just don't understand how this works in the first place?

I understand how it works and as a cor I think it fucking sucks!

[Insaniac]

My theory is this is the point where there's so many holes in the dam people stop trying to plug them with their fingers and just say fuck it. Honestly why even bother. The faster my posting rights get revoked for not having an active account the better.

[Ica]

It's mind boggling. This is a massive nerf to Corsair, and a solid DD nerf to everyone (since it's a nerf to a buffer's buffs). I guess that many people just don't understand how this works in the first place?

Yeah, that's the only reason I can come up with as well. Either they don't play COR, or bring one to events, so it's not a big deal? Or as it was put by one LS mate earlier: there's no save TP on pink/perle gear so it must not be something the majority of the player base needs to care about!

[Rezeak]

imo setting a cap at 50 tp would been a better way to go so atleast miser roll will still be useful.

[SpankWustler]

http://i.imgur.com/0SNFI.jpg

[Vivik]

http://i.imgur.com/0SNFI.jpg

BARANCE!*

yAY!

[Mindi]

This is really a slap in the face for all the COR who were usefull in a group event again. In the end you can still do Misers+Atmacite of Discipline for 45 SaveTP... but not sure if ppl will careenough since alot of lolcor still out there who arent trying to hold 11regain/mis up fulltime in VW making the benefits of those 2 buffs not as strong anymore.

I think the maintask of the Dev's is to find out what ways of combat the playerbase actually use for their fights and then they think about how to nerf it. They saw us useing COR's and Atmacite of Discipline in VW to together with Regain roll/Atmacite to be able to have a very high WS frequency.. and they think "ehh what are the players doing?! this doesnt work like i intentended! Need...to...nerf...."

With this nerf to saveTP i think they really should raise the amount of SaveTp on Miser's roll.. or Cut away the Lower TP Gain on Blitzersroll so cor could use it as a haste roll.. or change blitzer to a real Hasteroll.

[Babekeke]

I can't help but wonder if when the new COR rolls were announced, everyone just said "yes thank you, they're great" instead of "I'll never use it still, Miser's and Tactician's is the only way to go!" that this nerf may have never happened?

[SpankWustler]

I can't help but wonder if when the new COR rolls were announced, everyone just said "yes thank you, they're great" instead of "I'll never use it still, Miser's and Tactician's is the only way to go!" that this nerf may have never happened?

This reminds me of the parable: "I cried that I had no shoes, until I met the maniac who sawed off my feet."

[saevel]

It's not as bad as people are crying about. Doing Discipline + Coercion with Misers and Tacticians and getting 60+ TP back after each WS was getting broken. Players basically never stopped WSing. Now your can still stack those buffs and instead of 60+ TP your getting 30~40+ TP back. And considering you couldn't ever get that much back from a regular WS, then Misers isn't useless in any way, its just not overwhelming broken anymore.

[Insaniac]

There are better ways that they could have fixed it. Such as a cap on the maximum TP return of a WS at 50. I'm fully aware that 70tp return on WSs was over the top and I was saying it would get nerfed from day one but this change is stupid. This change makes miser's 95% useless outside of VW and inside probably loses big time to double march in DPS increases so now COR will mostly be there for procs. OH WAIT YOU WON'T NEED TO PROC ANYMORE WHEN THIS GOES LIVE!!!

[Seha]

This throws Miser's roll down the gutter. They either pump the roll's values to about double the amount, or corsairs are just going back to lv 75 buffs. The idea about a tp return cap wasn't bad, but someone at SE simply isn't able to think creatively I guess, always use the worst possible solution for every problem.

[SpankWustler]

It's not as bad as people are crying about. Doing Discipline + Coercion with Misers and Tacticians and getting 60+ TP back after each WS was getting broken. Players basically never stopped WSing. Now your can still stack those buffs and instead of 60+ TP your getting 30~40+ TP back. And considering you couldn't ever get that much back from a regular WS, then Misers isn't useless in any way, its just not overwhelming broken anymore.

Miser's Roll will be effectively useless outside of Voidwatch. It might add a few TP, but going back to Chaos/Something will be far more effective. You have successfully described the only situation in which Miser's Roll will still be useful: Voidwatch.

How Save TP from Miser's Roll interacts with Save TP from Atmacite could have been changed or the cap on Save TP could have been lowered. Instead, the Development Bros drowned the baby in the bath water didn't even bother throwing the mess out.

[Insaniac]

This throws Miser's roll down the gutter. They either pump the roll's values to about double the amount, or corsairs are just going back to lv 75 buffs. The idea about a tp return cap wasn't bad, but someone at SE simply isn't able to think creatively I guess, always use the worst possible solution for every problem.
The thing is the right option, the one I mention, is the least creative option. They went out of their way to think of a more creative and more ruinous method to nerf.

[Vivik]

To be honest, one of my biggest gripes about this nerf is a selfish one. I was really enjoying not having to shoot for TP in Viodwatch. Bullets on my server are on average of 400k a stack. That's about triple what they were when I started to level Corsair. I rather enjoy using Misers/Tactitions and only having to QD between WS for TP. It saves quite a bit on the cost of ammo.

Hey Bayohne, since the Devs threw BST a bone with recipes on jugs hows about they throw some towards COR and RNG on bullets too? The cost of shooting for TP is ridiculous! Make it happen. <3

[cidbahamut]

This is a terrible change and the devs should feel bad about themselves for coming up with it.

Miser's Roll needs to be adjusted for balance. I'm thinking...a value of 20 for the unlucky roll and it just goes up from there.

[Pootersmash]

I'm assuming the problem behind this change is the +40 save tp available in VoidWatch. If VW is the problem area, then i suggest they change that, not the underlying mechanic. I would 100% rather they nerf the atmacite, than the whole mechanic right now.

SE, please realize that this change makes the roll 100% useless to all DD.

I 3
II 5
III 7
IV 9
V 20
VI 11
VII 2
VIII 13
IX 15
X 17
XI 25

How many DD's have much less than 15tp per WS? meaning only 3 out of the 11 rolls are actually a buff now. and those three aren't really much of a buff. Please, change the atmacite instead or find some way to balance the trait in VW. Heck, Conserve TP instead of Save tp on the atmacite still might be usefull, but would solve your problem.

As for the sam "Buff" everyone is complaining about... Most sams get 20+tp per hit as is. so a save TP+20 JA wouldn't do anything. chance are they'll change it to +40 which will just keep it the same. but they wouldnt' have to do that if they fixed the actual problem area instead of altering a trait's mechanic

[Insaniac]

@ 2 posts up

For what they are trying to accomplish they can't do something like that. If they buff Miser's then we are back up to 60-70tp returns in VW even if you miss and they might as well not nerf it at all. The only sensible answer is to cap WS returns at something like 50tp.

[Insaniac]

As for the sam "Buff" everyone is complaining about... Most sams get 20+tp per hit as is. so a save TP+20 JA wouldn't do anything. chance are they'll change it to +40 which will just keep it the same. but they wouldnt' have to do that if they fixed the actual problem area instead of altering a trait's mechanic When I talk about a SAM buff I'm not talking about the buff to the JA. What I mean is that the save TP nerf indirectly increases the disparity between SAM and other DDs WS frequency in VW.

[ZeroUnlimited]

It's not as bad as people are crying about. Doing Discipline + Coercion with Misers and Tacticians and getting 60+ TP back after each WS was getting broken. Players basically never stopped WSing. Now your can still stack those buffs and instead of 60+ TP your getting 30~40+ TP back. And considering you couldn't ever get that much back from a regular WS, then Misers isn't useless in any way, its just not overwhelming broken anymore.

This. I can see why they nerfed it and honestly I'm finding myself in agreement with it.

[Ica]

This. I can see why they nerfed it and honestly I'm finding myself in agreement with it.

No. They should have put a cap on it rather than nerf it completely. This makes having only a COR, or only the atmacite, completely useless.

[Vivik]

This. I can see why they nerfed it and honestly I'm finding myself in agreement with it.

You both fail to realize the usefulness of Misers outside of Voidwatch which is where it will be completely useless now. I really have no problem with the VW part of it. But VW is only one event.

[Insaniac]

Limiting TP return to 50ish is NP and I completely understand it but there is a better way to do it. I'm still convinced the reason they chose to fuck CORs was so the save TP on the SAM JA would stay useful ALL the time. A cap on TP return would mean that Hagakure would SITUATIONALLY be slightly less useful and that just simply can't be allowed.

[Pootersmash]

You both fail to realize the usefulness of Misers outside of Voidwatch which is where it will be completely useless now. I really have no problem with the VW part of it. But VW is only one event.

This exactly. right now outside VW, Miser's is just viable. decent in some situations, not so decent in others.
this will take it to usefull on only 2-3 rolls, and 100% not effective for every other roll. Buffs should always be a buff, not just
10% of the time.

[Cursed]

Is this SE trolling us?... srsly...

SE>>Hi. More nerfs. This time for all of you"
SAM>> me too?
SE>> no silly. you get a boost. you're so precious.

[saevel]

You both fail to realize the usefulness of Misers outside of Voidwatch which is where it will be completely useless now. I really have no problem with the VW part of it. But VW is only one event.

Which is what event exactly.....

Dynamis ...


"Legion" hasn't been released yet, so we have no idea how that's gonna go.

Anyhow, the problem was the way in which Misers worked, or specifically "Save TP" worked. It reduced your 100TP requirement to 80 or less. That in and of itself is borderline broken. Throw in Save TP as an atmacite and it becomes really broken.

Now I don't think SE should of changed the mechanic the way they did, instead a cap or some sort of reduction would of been a better idea. But this is SE, they nerf everything into oblivion. See Gravity I / II as a prime example.

[Vivik]

Which is what event exactly.....

Einherjar, Assaults, Anything in Abyssea, Salvage, Up coming Nyzul. Just because you don't do an event does not mean other people do not.

As far as your TP requirement maybe you can explain exactly what you mean because I have no idea what you're trying to say. Misers is a straight up TP buff meaning at a roll of 11 it give 25tp. So after they gimp it down it means without conserve TP trait you will get only 25tp after you WS making the roll pretty much useless.

[Ica]

Which is what event exactly.....

Dynamis ...

I keep forgetting SE took all events but Voidwatch out of the game. My bad, never mind. I guess this nerf is okay then.

Miser's roll is a buff. It's designed to make you more powerful then you are without it. If they want to put a cap on it, fine. But why make it so you get virtually no use from it?

[Mirabelle]

Why do people think it is broken to be able to frequently WS in an event where the mobs are just plain nasty with AoE's making toe-to-toe fighting near impossible without temps. Esp since procing is tied to hitting the right WS in the first place?

It seems to me that VW was working as intended making it useful to have a COR and several DD in a party to maximize success chances. Now they plan on Nerfing Misers roll, AoE effects, need for procs which will turn VW into BRD/SAM/WHM onry fests.

No one was complaining about VW from a mechanics standpoint. Complaints were about drop rates and rare loot hitting the floor.

What on earth did COR's do to deserve being made less useful in this event (especially since we were largely locked out of Abyssea for the last two years). Oh no, one of the least played most expensive jobs has become relevant again...quick fix it.

[Ophannus]

Wait COR was locked out of Abyssea? Pretty sure Wildfire is the most overpowered WS in Abyssea which has comprised endgame for the past 2 years.

[Mirabelle]

Wait COR was locked out of Abyssea? Pretty sure Wildfire is the most overpowered WS in Abyssea which has comprised endgame for the past 2 years.

So a 1 trick pony brew bitch was its usefuness. And that was once you got your Armageddon finished and not before. There was a lot of Abyssea content before that point (gaining abyssites, atma, zone wins, AF3 +1 seals).

But COR wasn't needed for procs, buffs, TH. It helped a bit with damage, but even with WF a COR couldn't solo anything in abyssea other than trash mobs.

Coming in once everyone had their KI's, popping a brew or two and one-shotting or two shotting NM's is hardly what I call playing COR (as fun as it is the first few times)

[Chriscoffey]

This constant nerfing of jobs while sam stays to the good is bias as hell. If any jobs needs the nerf cannon it has been sam for years YET constantly staying their "precious" child.

[Ganukay]

How can they do this in the name of balance when it makes cor a lot less useful? Dumb nerf

[saevel]

Einherjar, Assaults, Anything in Abyssea, Salvage, Up coming Nyzul. Just because you don't do an event does not mean other people do not.

As far as your TP requirement maybe you can explain exactly what you mean because I have no idea what you're trying to say. Misers is a straight up TP buff meaning at a roll of 11 it give 25tp. So after they gimp it down it means without conserve TP trait you will get only 25tp after you WS making the roll pretty much useless.

/sigh

Needing to explain basic DD builds.
Typically a DD needs 100 TP to get a Ws off, most build their gear sets around this number. By reducing this number you enable them to WS more, and by reducing it further through atmacite it allows them to never stop WSing.

I can understand that newer players might not remember this, but there once was a job / build setup that could do exactly what your doing now. It involved polearm and a SAM, DRG or WAR. Back then we got full TP return on every hit with a WS, thus Penta could return 50 or more TP. It was the best setup you could get, only eclipsed by a MNK with the base relic knuckles, but only barely. SE swung their nerf hammer and changed it to the TP system we have now. Anyone who didn't see this coming was either blinding themselves, or is to new to remember the original TP nerf.

As for those events. LMAO. Every last one of those is a joke and you all know it. Your blustering to try to create a false sense of support for your position. You used misers for voidwatch pure and simple. Everything else is just BS.

[Vivik]

/sigh

Needing to explain basic DD builds.
Typically a DD needs 100 TP to get a Ws off, most build their gear sets around this number. By reducing this number you enable them to WS more, and by reducing it further through atmacite it allows them to never stop WSing.

I can understand that newer players might not remember this, but there once was a job / build setup that could do exactly what your doing now. It involved polearm and a SAM, DRG or WAR. Back then we got full TP return on every hit with a WS, thus Penta could return 50 or more TP. It was the best setup you could get, only eclipsed by a MNK with the base relic knuckles, but only barely. SE swung their nerf hammer and changed it to the TP system we have now. Anyone who didn't see this coming was either blinding themselves, or is to new to remember the original TP nerf.

As for those events. LMAO. Every last one of those is a joke and you all know it. Your blustering to try to create a false sense of support for your position. You used misers for voidwatch pure and simple. Everything else is just BS.

So because you talk about TP in a completely backwards manner, I'm stupid? Yeah, ok...lol. I understand you're trying to be the cool kid and all but you have no Idea what I do in game for events. Fact is I go cor to Einherjar every week. I go cor to Abyssea every week. I should not have to explain why these events are still valid and I think even if I did you're too thick to grasp the concept.
Simple fact is SE is making this roll useless outside of Voidwatch. If you have a valid point to make instead of moronic insults I would love to hear it.

[Ica]

/sigh

Needing to explain basic DD builds.
Typically a DD needs 100 TP to get a Ws off, most build their gear sets around this number. By reducing this number you enable them to WS more, and by reducing it further through atmacite it allows them to never stop WSing.

I can understand that newer players might not remember this, but there once was a job / build setup that could do exactly what your doing now. It involved polearm and a SAM, DRG or WAR. Back then we got full TP return on every hit with a WS, thus Penta could return 50 or more TP. It was the best setup you could get, only eclipsed by a MNK with the base relic knuckles, but only barely. SE swung their nerf hammer and changed it to the TP system we have now. Anyone who didn't see this coming was either blinding themselves, or is to new to remember the original TP nerf.

It seems originally we were in agreement about SE going about "fixing" save TP the wrong way by completely nerfing it down instead of putting a cap on it (which is the important issue), but now you're just being an arrogant, condescending twatbag. So...

Again, just because you don't do any of those events doesn't mean other people don't. That might be too difficult a concept for you to understand; if so, I do apologize.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go and tell my friends and linkshell mates that we have to stop doing any and all events besides Voidwatch, as it is the only true relevant content in the game and anything else is a meaningless joke.

[Ahrana]

/sigh

Needing to explain basic DD builds.
Typically a DD needs 100 TP to get a Ws off, most build their gear sets around this number. By reducing this number you enable them to WS more, and by reducing it further through atmacite it allows them to never stop WSing.

I can understand that newer players might not remember this, but there once was a job / build setup that could do exactly what your doing now. It involved polearm and a SAM, DRG or WAR. Back then we got full TP return on every hit with a WS, thus Penta could return 50 or more TP. It was the best setup you could get, only eclipsed by a MNK with the base relic knuckles, but only barely. SE swung their nerf hammer and changed it to the TP system we have now. Anyone who didn't see this coming was either blinding themselves, or is to new to remember the original TP nerf.

As for those events. LMAO. Every last one of those is a joke and you all know it. Your blustering to try to create a false sense of support for your position. You used misers for voidwatch pure and simple. Everything else is just BS.

Yay, using pentaspam as justification for nerfs! It's only been 8 years since said nerf happened.

Since you're obviously a hardcore super vet, you should know that weaponskill frequency has been the way to beat most baddies. For the first time since release a job could compete with bard to maximize weaponskill frequency. That's obviously not allowed, so corsairs are getting beaten with the nerf stick. This is SE saying marchx2 onry.

Because if there's one job that is just oodles of fun to play, it's bard.

[Babekeke]

COR: "But I have my 2 standard melee rolls macro'd! Now I have to choose a different one from the other 8 DD-based rolls!"

Sometimes asking people to think outside the box is just too much.

[Dawnn]

This is ridiculous... I'm a samurai and I don't want to be babied like this!
I WANT TO SHINE FROM MY PLAY STYLE AND GEAR

There is no glory whatsoever in nerfing EVERY other job until its near useless.
Thank you SE for spoon-feeding us but I think its time you let us sams learn to walk on our own damn feet

[saevel]

COR: "But I have my 2 standard melee rolls macro'd! Now I have to choose a different one from the other 8 DD-based rolls!"

Sometimes asking people to think outside the box is just too much.

More like that's the only two rolls they bothered to buy on their COR after abyssea burning it to 99. They might of got evokers just cause.


COR still has plenty of offensive buffs, their just pissed the broken one is being nerfed. And while it's a rather heavy handed nerf, it's not unexpected seeing as they've done this exact same nerf in the past.

And the absolutely hilarious part is, this won't change VWNM much except for those who purposely built for it. Instead of getting 50+ TP after a WS they'll now get 35~40 TP after a WS, adds a full attack round to their WS time, but not much else. "Outside of abysea" doing ... farming or whatever, they'll still have QD / SS / WF / combined with all the other rolls. Saying COR is "useless" is a perfect example of Hyperbole. Want to see a "useless" job, go look at RDM, BST, PUP or SMN (other then PD zerg). Even the mighty PLD is nearly useless with it's sole ability being that it can hold a crazy offensive NM while an alliance recovers from a near wipe.

But no, the job that can not only buff others, but smash a mobs face in, is somehow "useless" without a single buff. You'd think they were nerfing WF and QD with how people are reacting.

[Insaniac]

I don't think people are even reacting that badly so I don't know where you are getting that from.. Most people are just asking for it to be nerfed differently so that you don't need an atmacite for it to actually do something of note. And maybe I skimmed over it but when did anyone say COR would be useless?

[SpankWustler]

COR: "But I have my 2 standard melee rolls macro'd! Now I have to choose a different one from the other 8 DD-based rolls!"

Sometimes asking people to think outside the box is just too much.

Generally, it was best to switch the second slot between Chaos Roll and Tactician's Roll already, depending on the time people could spend engaged and the amount of Haste present.

The death of Miser's Roll outside of Voidwatch isn't being lamented because it was the standard roll. It's being lamenting because Miser's roll was the only roll that was vaguely in the same neighborhood as the Marches a Bard could offer.

[Greatguardian]

Wait COR was locked out of Abyssea? Pretty sure Wildfire is the most overpowered WS in Abyssea which has comprised endgame for the past 2 years.

lol what. Wildfire barely keeps up in per-WS damage compared to any melee worth a shit, and Corsair has practically 0 white damage to speak of. Brew is the only time when a Wildfire Cor is a worthwhile DD in Abyssea.

[Pootersmash]

More like that's the only two rolls they bothered to buy on their COR after abyssea burning it to 99. They might of got evokers just cause.


COR still has plenty of offensive buffs, their just pissed the broken one is being nerfed. And while it's a rather heavy handed nerf, it's not unexpected seeing as they've done this exact same nerf in the past.

And the absolutely hilarious part is, this won't change VWNM much except for those who purposely built for it. Instead of getting 50+ TP after a WS they'll now get 35~40 TP after a WS, adds a full attack round to their WS time, but not much else. "Outside of abysea" doing ... farming or whatever, they'll still have QD / SS / WF / combined with all the other rolls. Saying COR is "useless" is a perfect example of Hyperbole. Want to see a "useless" job, go look at RDM, BST, PUP or SMN (other then PD zerg). Even the mighty PLD is nearly useless with it's sole ability being that it can hold a crazy offensive NM while an alliance recovers from a near wipe.

But no, the job that can not only buff others, but smash a mobs face in, is somehow "useless" without a single buff. You'd think they were nerfing WF and QD with how people are reacting.

Ok, couple points cause you don't seem to understand what others(or even yourself) are saying. We are not complaining because Cor is being nerfed, it's not cor being nerfed, it is a entire game mechanic being made 100% useless. This is apparent because they decided that they NEEDED to change the one JA that utilized the trait so that it wouldn't be rendered useless(in respect to the save tp portion).

Also, how many "Viable" DD buffs does cor get? lets look at the list.

Copycat rolls:
ATK+ Decent
ACC+ only usefull in a handfull of fights

unique rolls:
store tp use lowered due to increase in store tp gear, bad rolls = no end effect
crit Decent
DA Decent
regain Decent
misers not as viable as people think outside of VW. bad rolls = no end effect on x-hit builds. but viable if forcing 11's.

so yes, there are other(better) rolls, but lowers the overall utility. Personally, I've yet to use miser's outside of VW, due to crappy rolls not being usefull enough. now crappy rolls are 100% not a buff, and the good rolls will a buff only in definition, not accomplishing anything in the end(no reduction in x-hit build).

I just want it to remain slightly viable outside of VW. and be nerfed in VW, because I agree that it is over the top in that one scenario. In your example, Penta spam could be used ANYWHERE. this is only powerfull in 1 event due to 1 atmacite. nerf that please.

[Cuzuki]

lol what. Wildfire barely keeps up in per-WS damage compared to any melee worth a shit, and Corsair has practically 0 white damage to speak of. Brew is the only time when a Wildfire Cor is a worthwhile DD in Abyssea.

Then obviously you've only seen CORs that don't know how to equip for and get the right atmas for Wildfire and don't take advantage/can't take advantage of the Navarch's Bottes+1/+2. CORs I personally know punch holes in things with Wildfire in Abyssea and can easily keep up with others in damage.

[Greatguardian]

Then obviously you've only seen CORs that don't know how to equip for and get the right atmas for Wildfire and don't take advantage/can't take advantage of the Navarch's Bottes+1/+2. CORs I personally know punch holes in things with Wildfire in Abyssea and can easily keep up with others in damage.

Are you serious? Corsair is one of my favorite jobs. I can easily break 5k Wildfires in Abyssea (6k w/feet, etc).

Know the problem? So can any other DD worth a shit. 5k is nothing special. Corsair has a shit-tastic WS frequency in Abyssea and practically non-existent white damage. It's easily left behind by any decent melee. If your Corsair is keeping up, then your melees suck.

[Babekeke]

Ok, couple points cause you don't seem to understand what others(or even yourself) are saying. We are not complaining because Cor is being nerfed, it's not cor being nerfed, it is a entire game mechanic being made 100% useless. This is apparent because they decided that they NEEDED to change the one JA that utilized the trait so that it wouldn't be rendered useless(in respect to the save tp portion).

Also, how many "Viable" DD buffs does cor get? lets look at the list.

Copycat rolls:
ATK+ Decent
ACC+ only usefull in a handfull of fights

unique rolls:
store tp use lowered due to increase in store tp gear, bad rolls = no end effect
crit Decent
DA Decent
regain Decent
misers not as viable as people think outside of VW. bad rolls = no end effect on x-hit builds. but viable if forcing 11's.

so yes, there are other(better) rolls, but lowers the overall utility. Personally, I've yet to use miser's outside of VW, due to crappy rolls not being usefull enough. now crappy rolls are 100% not a buff, and the good rolls will a buff only in definition, not accomplishing anything in the end(no reduction in x-hit build).

I just want it to remain slightly viable outside of VW. and be nerfed in VW, because I agree that it is over the top in that one scenario. In your example, Penta spam could be used ANYWHERE. this is only powerfull in 1 event due to 1 atmacite. nerf that please.

If I'm not mistaken, there are 2 regain rolls? And inside VW there's a regain atma too (and 1 that offers sphere regain which affects your mates, but not you)

[Greatguardian]

If I'm not mistaken, there are 2 regain rolls? And inside VW there's a regain atma too (and 1 that offers sphere regain which affects your mates, but not you)

You are mistaken. There is one regain roll.

[Ophannus]

5k wildfires are consistent, compared to random ass Drakesbanes which range randomly from 2-4k in abyssea and lets not even talk about DRK damage.

[Chriscoffey]

5k wildfires are consistent, compared to random ass Drakesbanes which range randomly from 2-4k in abyssea and lets not even talk about DRK damage.
^^ They should try other melee before saying such nonsense.

I think you people need to do more VW to see how able a cor is to kill/DOT things because they are very good compared to other various melee (Rex says Hi).

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rex is custard...

[Pootersmash]

^^ They should try other melee before saying such nonsense.

I think you people need to do more VW to see how able a cor is to kill/DOT things because they are very good compared to other various melee (Rex says Hi).

One fight does not make a job a great DD job all around. on rex WF can do over 3k, on a NM with magic dmg taken +12.5%. but on any other VWNM, any good DD will do more WS dmg than wildfire. The main highpoint to cor dmg is that it's consistant, and low hate meaning they will keep ticking when melee DD's die.

Now, the discussion of how good of a DD cor is was for inside abyssea, in which case anyone that thinks cor is among the top of the list is just simply not looking at it from all angles. WF can do 5k in abyssea. Smite can do up to 8k, Ukko's can do up to 8k, Shoha 7k. now they aren't as consistant, and tend to average more in the 3-4k range per WS. but the big kicker is the melee dmg. for mnk, getting to 100tp does more dmg than smite already. War is about the same amount of dmg as Ukko's. and Sam WS's nearly non-stop in abyssea. Every other DD uses atmas that benifit both WS dmg, and melee dmg. Cor uses atmas that only boost the WS dmg, meaning the already lackluster /ra falls even farther behind leaving only the occasional quickdraw to try to keep up. All of this translates to VW as well. Every other DD is doing melee dmg as well, the split just changes more to WS's which is why cor can keep up more easily.

Anyway, enough derailing about the power/lack of power of the Cor in the DD deparment. The point is simply that the nerf to Save TP completely makes Miser's roll useless in any situation that you're not getting another form of the trait(all but VW and sam). a Buff should ALWAYS be a buff, not just 10% of the time. the other 90% of the time they will gain more TP from WS's than the save tp would provide, canceling out the buff.

[Insaniac]

Yeah, I really don't know where all this "COR usefulness" talk is coming from. No one arguing for a different type of nerf has really said anything about COR being useless. Nerfing in this fashion throws too many other things out of balance like SAMs WS frequency vs. other 2h DDs inside VW and the desirability of COR vs. BRD outside VW. A 50 tp return cap is the obvious answer.

[Babekeke]

You are mistaken. There is one regain roll.

So what's with Companion's roll showing Regain and Regen?
And obviously Tactician's roll.

1 + 1 = 2 last time I checked, though it has been a while since I was at school^^

[Yinnyth]

There are many rolls which are, functionally speaking, worthless. If they wish to throw one of the best rolls onto the pile of worthless rolls, perhaps they should consider pulling one or more of the other rolls off that pile. And I'm sorry, but the PLD and WHM roll changes are fundamentally disgusting. Boosting the other rolls is a nice touch, but this doesn't change the fact that they're just a moderate increase to a buff-type that is almost never needed. To compare these changes to what a bard would be facing, it's like marches getting nerfed so they don't stack with any other form of haste and in return, pastoral, gavotte, capriccio, operetta, and round get their strengths slightly boosted; the best song gets nerfed to the point where it's useless, the worst songs are still the worst, but slightly better than they were.

[Yinnyth]

So what's with Companion's roll showing Regain and Regen?
And obviously Tactician's roll.

1 + 1 = 2 last time I checked, though it has been a while since I was at school^^

Context is important.


If I'm not mistaken, there are 2 regain rolls? And inside VW there's a regain atma too (and 1 that offers sphere regain which affects your mates, but not you)

No one went "HOLY CRAP! Can we use Atma of the Apocalypse in VW too?!" because it's clear from the context that you mean "atmacite" even though you used the word "atma" as an abbreviation instead. Just like how when GG said you were mistaken and there's only one regain roll, it's clear from the context he means "one regain roll which can affect a player".

One thing I can't decypher from your context, however, is whether or not you're really trying to use Companion's Roll as an argument that corsair will still be strong after this next update.

[Dawnn]

So what's with Companion's roll showing Regain and Regen?
And obviously Tactician's roll.

1 + 1 = 2 last time I checked, though it has been a while since I was at school^^

companion's roll
pets? maybe? =p

[SpankWustler]

There are many rolls which are, functionally speaking, worthless. If they wish to throw one of the best rolls onto the pile of worthless rolls, perhaps they should consider pulling one or more of the other rolls off that pile. And I'm sorry, but the PLD and WHM roll changes are fundamentally disgusting. Boosting the other rolls is a nice touch, but this doesn't change the fact that they're just a moderate increase to a buff-type that is almost never needed. To compare these changes to what a bard would be facing, it's like marches getting nerfed so they don't stack with any other form of haste and in return, pastoral, gavotte, capriccio, operetta, and round get their strengths slightly boosted; the best song gets nerfed to the point where it's useless, the worst songs are still the worst, but slightly better than they were.

I have a feeling that if we could know how useful some of the Development Bros think the new Paladin and White Mage rolls will be, certain parts our brains would catch on fire. It would just be too much of a system shock.

At the bare minimum, it would be similar to watching the evening news alongside a schizophrenic who thinks all news anchors are speaking to him directly.

[Seha]

Seriously, I'd rather they put a cap on savetp or nerf the atmacite instead of the roll, I'd like to still use it in Legion you know.

[darkhorror]

This is a terrible way to make an adjustment to save tp. If you want it so that people can't constantly WS. Just set the max tp return on WS to 50. That way save tp is useful, without having to use two things at once to make it useful.

[Greatguardian]

5k wildfires are consistent, compared to random ass Drakesbanes which range randomly from 2-4k in abyssea and lets not even talk about DRK damage.


^^ They should try other melee before saying such nonsense.

I think you people need to do more VW to see how able a cor is to kill/DOT things because they are very good compared to other various melee (Rex says Hi).

You're both missing the point.

COR is a great DD in Voidwatch. It's awesome. I parse pretty damn high on it a lot of the time.

In Abyssea, however, it is not. No one gives a damn about per-WS damage. Seriously. It is not some sort of magic quantifier for how much damage a job is capable of doing. Summoner can do 5k BPs, does that mean it's able to keep up with WAR? Hell no.

1) Cor's WS frequency is lower than any hasted melee DD in Abyssea.

2) Cor's white damage is nonexistant, especially compared to DDs who are rocking RR/SS/Apoc and getting 1k crits with 15% TA.

3) 2k Drakesbanes are low, you're using an OAT lance and probably no food if you're hitting those numbers often. And if you're using a bloody OAT lance, then there's a reason your WS is averaging lower - you WS a hell of a lot more often.

4) For those who just can't read, I'll reiterate that Cor is awesome in Voidwatch. It is not, however, awesome in Abyssea. It is pretty damn terrible in Abyssea.

Unrelated tangent: Companion's Roll is for pets only, holy shit.

[Yinnyth]

This is a terrible way to make an adjustment to save tp. If you want it so that people can't constantly WS. Just set the max tp return on WS to 50. That way save tp is useful, without having to use two things at once to make it useful.

It's my opinion that the balance would be better maintained for later if max TP return and save TP both got individual caps of some sort. So a max TP return of 66.6, and a save TP cap of 40, for example. That way they could add some awesome piece of gear that has save TP+10, conserve TP+15, and store TP+20, and when combined with miser's roll you'll still get some sort of boost out of conserve TP when it kicks in.

As a side note, I hate hard caps in general. I would much rather see a system of diminishing returns.

[Tinuviel]

In regard to "TP Gained Through A weaponskill":
I think its well understood that the change to Save TP will completely ruin the value of Miser's Roll (we have 90-95% accuracy, we don't waste buffs on a "if i miss my ws" scenario). There is some serious dismay about this, as this was a really defining and highly valued roll for Cor. I believe that SE should change how Save TP works for the purpose of game balance (having 60+ TP after a WS is too broken, imo); however, just nerfing Miser's Roll is a very weak approach if thats all that is done. I would like to see this overall approach to Save TP:

1. If Save TP stat is greater than normal TP return, then TP returned from WS is your Save TP value (this is what they already said they will be doing)
2. Save TP stat caps at some value (probably 40-50TP)
3. Increase potency of Miser's Roll so that it isn't completely useless (15-35 Save TP, based on roll)
4. Add more gear that can give Save TP

[Rukkirii]

The reason that we're adjusting the specifications for save TP is that we're working to prevent weapon skills from being executed non-stop when stacking save TP, store TP, and conserve TP. As such, there are no plans to increase the effect of Miser Roll because it would cancel out the point of the save TP adjustment. Miser Roll's save TP effect will still stack with other effects and equipment.

[SpankWustler]

The reason that we're adjusting the specifications for save TP is that we're working to prevent weapon skills from being executed non-stop when stacking save TP, store TP, and conserve TP. As such, there are no plans to increase the effect of Miser Roll because it would cancel out the point of the save TP adjustment. Miser Roll's save TP effect will still stack with other effects and equipment.

Because of the specific nature of this adjustment, Miser's Roll will ONLY have a palpable effect in situations where a large amount of Save TP is present from another source. Couldn't the same limitations be imposed through a hard cap on total TP return from a weaponskill + Save TP + other stuff or something similar?

[Ophannus]

Outside of Voidwatch there's almost no other situations where players can garner any kind of "Save TP" unless they're a Samurai under the effect of Hagakure.

Also in situations where "Conserve TP" and "Save TP" are both present on the same player in any combination of values, "Conserve TP" will *NEVER* activate. This has been tested extensively in Voidwatch and DRG and DNC will never have their trait "Conserve TP" activate so long as "Save TP" is present from Atmacite of Discipline or Miser's Roll. Glitch or intentional?

[Dragoy]

The reason that we're adjusting the specifications for save TP is that we're working to prevent weapon skills from being executed non-stop when stacking save TP, store TP, and conserve TP.
However it is OK for the Monsters to do this, yes?

Haha, sorry... I just had to. ^^

[Rohelius]

Because of the specific nature of this adjustment, Miser's Roll will ONLY have a palpable effect in situations where a large amount of Save TP is present from another source. Couldn't the same limitations be imposed through a hard cap on total TP return from a weaponskill + Save TP + other stuff or something similar?

But that would cap SAM too and that's a no no in SE's book.

[Nightfyre]

My face when the dev bros don't even know that Conserve TP can't proc over Save TP.

Also, what exactly is so bad about being able to spam weaponskills anyway?

[Greatguardian]

Because of the specific nature of this adjustment, Miser's Roll will ONLY have a palpable effect in situations where a large amount of Save TP is present from another source. Couldn't the same limitations be imposed through a hard cap on total TP return from a weaponskill + Save TP + other stuff or something similar?

Seriously, this. Just hard cap WS TP return at 50. A standard 2-hand DD getting Miser's Roll is going to be looking at a 45% TP return, exactly what you'd get with the current adjustments if you combine Atmacite of Discipline and Miser's Roll.

And if the Devs are intentionally giving you misleading or bad information, then I must apologize to you Ruki. However, it's nothing short of rage-inducing when the Developers set off everyone's bullshit-o-meter by bringing up Conserve TP and Save TP in the same sentence. They don't stack. We know they don't stack, so the Devs who programmed the bloody traits in the first place ought to know that they don't bloody stack.

[Kimble]

Honestly, this nerf is dumb in the way its being done.

SE, ffs, please listen for once and instead make WS TP return cap at 50 TP returned. If you aren't going to do this, I demand at least a freaking haste roll then.

[Chamaan]

My understanding from their posts has been that the comreps have and do still play this game. I can't imagine how much it must suck for them to communicate with the programmers, having actual knowledge of the game beyond the 1's and 0's and knowing these changes are trash but still having to tow the company line.

Cheers, cats and kitten. Keep filling out those DPS Reports and filing them with the furnace. I don't envy you.

[Mirabelle]

The reason that we're adjusting the specifications for save TP is that we're working to prevent weapon skills from being executed non-stop when stacking save TP, store TP, and conserve TP. As such, there are no plans to increase the effect of Miser Roll because it would cancel out the point of the save TP adjustment. Miser Roll's save TP effect will still stack with other effects and equipment.

Strange how this didn't matter when they introduced an atmacite of 20 Save TP, knowing full well it would stack with other Save TP effects. Then they are shocked when people get 1-2 hit builds.
Listen SE, COR's spent money on this roll only to have it made less useful than SAM roll, a roll we got 4 years and 35 levels ago at a lower cost. If you do this, you might as well remove the roll, give us our Gil back and introduce a haste roll.

The whole population is asking for a cap on TP returned. Just tell us why that is impossible when almost all the players are in agreement it is a superior option.

[Motenten]

The reason that we're adjusting the specifications for save TP is that we're working to prevent weapon skills from being executed non-stop when stacking save TP, store TP, and conserve TP. As such, there are no plans to increase the effect of Miser Roll because it would cancel out the point of the save TP adjustment. Miser Roll's save TP effect will still stack with other effects and equipment.


All right, Rukkirii -- Direct question.

Player understanding is that Save TP and Conserve TP do not stack. That is, if you have any sort of Save TP buff present, Conserve TP cannot activate. As such, it cannot and should not be a factor in any decision related to Save TP adjustments. Are the devs working from the assumption that they stack? Are they misapprehending the mechanics, or is player testing faulty?

I can understand a concern about TP return if someone not completely familiar with the interrelations between the effects looked at the combo and thought, "25 TP return on the weaponskill, 25 Save TP from Miser's Roll, 20 Save TP from Atmacite, and a possible 20 TP Conserve TP proc gives back 90 TP! Add a couple ticks of Tactician's Roll and regain Atmacite and they could weaponskill non-stop!" Except that that can't be the case; the maximum would be 70 TP plus the regain. Still substantial, but not to the extreme that seems to be the concern of whoever came up with this decision.

And, as has been suggested, simply placing a cap on the total TP return would also be fine. 50 TP would require two additional hits to reach 100 TP even for the extremes on sam, and 3 hits for most other two-handers (never mind the one-handers and H2H users who are nowhere near the lofty heights of TP return that the two-handers are).

[Yinnyth]

Not sure if devs oblivious...

7O
@ GGG
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Or intentionally making miser's roll worthless.

The overwhelming player reaction on this thread so far has been that the nerf is indeed needed for VW, but pwnhammers one of COR's best rolls everywhere else. No one would ever use miser's roll outside VW after this update, and even inside VW it's usefulness is open to debate.

Considering Rukkirii's answer seems to focus only on its use in VW and not anywhere else, I'm starting to get the feeling the community reps are under instructions to dodge the obvious and painful answer: "We know it will be worthless outside VW. That's intentional."

Still, I hope it is something they're simply overlooking.

[Babekeke]

companion's roll
pets? maybe? =p

Wow, I re-read the effects of this roll several times to see if I was missing something, and every time missed the word pet ><

{Please forgive me}

[saevel]

Not sure if devs oblivious...

7O
@ GGG
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3^/^^/^//^^^^/^/^//^////(@RBBBB@BBO
7/^^//^^//^/((OOSOO#(^///7@BBB@@@@BBC
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Or intentionally making miser's roll worthless.

The overwhelming player reaction on this thread so far has been that the nerf is indeed needed for VW, but pwnhammers one of COR's best rolls everywhere else. No one would ever use miser's roll outside VW after this update, and even inside VW it's usefulness is open to debate.

Considering Rukkirii's answer seems to focus only on its use in VW and not anywhere else, I'm starting to get the feeling the community reps are under instructions to dodge the obvious and painful answer: "We know it will be worthless outside VW. That's intentional."

Still, I hope it is something they're simply overlooking.

So COR's use one of the other rolls instead, like the +Attack or +DA one.

[Insaniac]

So COR's use one of the other rolls instead, like the +Attack or +DA one.You're assuming a COR without Miser's has any place in an event that doesn't need them for procs. CORs won't use other rolls they will be replaced by BRDs with double march just like they were at 75 cap.

[Seha]

10 bloody pages(now 11)of people saying put a cap on tp return instead of this and it's completely ignored(with a wrong justification nonetheless). Just what are these forums for? We would all go back to posting on bg, ah and zam only if we just wanted to discuss between us. Unless the jp section is all over this update cheering and clapping, is it the case? Or is it just someone in the dev team sayin "oh snap I didn't think about that...better pretend it's no good".

[Mirabelle]

So COR's use one of the other rolls instead, like the +Attack or +DA one.

Then why did we bother with raising the level cap at all if COR's are just supposed to use the same old rolls from 75 cap and be considered second rate to BRD's. Miser's roll was one of the rolls that put COR on a somewhat even footing with BRD at least in VW.

They advanced all the jobs with new abilities as the levels raised. COR got several new rolls of which 2 were useful (Tacticians, Misers). Now we are down to only one of the new rolls being useful. Given the cost of Die at the higher levels its pretty inconsiderate.

[Vivik]

The reason that we're adjusting the specifications for save TP is that we're working to prevent weapon skills from being executed non-stop when stacking save TP, store TP, and conserve TP. As such, there are no plans to increase the effect of Miser Roll because it would cancel out the point of the save TP adjustment. Miser Roll's save TP effect will still stack with other effects and equipment.

This is a load of crap. I have lost all confidence in this development team at this point. They obviously don't think about anything before they decide to adjust it. It's seems to me they are just throwing adjustments out there to see what the player reaction would be on fixing it because they have no clue how to fix it themselves. I mean come on you don't know how your own game mechanics work?

Gimping Misers Roll is obviously the easiest thing to do, but it's not the right thing to do. The development team is just showing us how inept they have become (or always were). Take your time and do it right the first time. Put a hard cap of 50% in for any TP gained through WS, problem solved...

[Chamaan]

Everyone's so angry they're going to end up retaliating by revisiting the multihit WS TP nerf from back in the olden days. Now the first hit in a WS will also give only 1 TP. *dusts off hands* Soblem prolved.

[Yinnyth]

So COR's use one of the other rolls instead, like the +Attack or +DA one.

That's... half the point we're making here. Corsairs won't bother using miser's roll anywhere but VW. Even in VW, I'd argue that it's better for DDs to begin using a different atmacite and a different second roll because you don't always get a corsair for your party, and not every DD might be using the atmacite. The roll and the atmacite alone will be nearly worthless.

Yeah, stacking up save TP is broken like crazy, and it needs to be fixed, but not at the cost of a job's versatility. There are other ways to fix the problem, such as a cap on save TP or a cap on maximum returned TP.

[Juilan]

Everyone's so angry they're going to end up retaliating by revisiting the multihit WS TP nerf from back in the olden days. Now the first hit in a WS will also give only 1 TP. *dusts off hands* Soblem prolved.

They don't listen to the good ideas, don't give them more bad ideas... because if they listen to those they should cut our fee to 5$/month >.>

[Yinnyth]

They don't listen to the good ideas, don't give them more bad ideas... because if they listen to those they should cut our fee to 5$/month >.>

Unfortunately, "Good" is subjective. I have many things I strongly disagree with the majority of NA players about (Dynamis, in particular), and I even come from the same culture as NA players. It seems to me that the JP concerns are more frequently addressed, however. If you take a look at when community reps post "responses" to certain topics, they put up anonymous "quotes" which are most likely paraphrasing concerns of other players. However, going through the thread they choose to put those responses in... you'd be hard pressed to find any player who voices the concerns the reps are actually responding to. Does this mean they're making up questions which no one has actually asked them, or are they direct responses to JP questions merely translated so we get a heads up on the direction the game is about to go in?

It's my belief that the devs actually read the forums, but since they're Japanese, they don't read the English, French, or German forums. I'm not saying that's a bad thing- it would mean they really do care about their game, and just see us as the disgusting, uncivilized slobs that we are. But it creates a sort of "glitch" for us NA players. We raise a concern, wait a week, and get a response that seems to have nothing to do with the concern we raised in the first place.

The reason for this is... well, you ever play that elementary school game "telephone"? These forums pervert our intentions in a similar fashion. Each player has a thought in their head, and they try to relate it through text. Text which cannot adequately relay tone, authority, or urgency. Our text is then read by community reps who may or may not fully comprehend what we're trying to say, then attempt to put it into terms their brain can understand and relay to others. They then bring up these modified concerns with the devs in a completely different language (and we've seen how much can get lost in translation ourselves). The devs then attempt to understand, and give a response. The community reps then translate back to English and post on the forums. Then we go "wtf is this abomination? This has nothing to do with what I asked..." because instead of hearing "Miser's roll will have no use anywhere outside of VW.", the devs heard "i liek turtles."

I'm not saying the community reps suck at translating, please don't mistake me as saying that. I'm merely saying we're playing a game of telephone in which the language changes twice.

Please forgive my rambling, I'm merely musing on why it's so hard to get an answer to the question you actually asked.

[Peldin]

^^ That's a lot of words to just say "our concerns are probably not reaching the devs because of translation issues"

[SpankWustler]

Then we go "wtf is this abomination? This has nothing to do with what I asked..." because instead of hearing "Miser's roll will have no use anywhere outside of VW.", the devs heard "i liek turtles."

In this month's mind-bending issue of Tales of Balance, the disturbing origin story of Crude Ralphie is made known!

[Mirabelle]

How hard is it to translate: Save TP should have a hard cap?

[Duzell]

How hard is it to translate: Save TP should have a hard cap?

Fed through auto-translator: TP を保存したハードキャップべきである
Translates back to english as: To save a TP should be hard cap

(Sounds alot like an old electronics manual)

[Senseinokaneko]

You know, I read a lot of people talking about how cor would go back to being a unimportant or undesired job. In my mind, Cor will always be desirable; probably because I have a bard for everything I do and that there is no reason to come to anything with a 2nd bard, especially with Darabula in the picture. Don't get me wrong, I completely dislike this update, but even without misers id put a cor with the dd party if they had a bard. Rogues roll and chaos roll is not a bad combo whatsoever; on the contrary it will amplify any good dd's damage immensely.

That being said, it would suck to be the cor and lose a significant chunk of your damage output and yes i believe that an overall cap is the best solution to the problem as it doesnt enrage cause as much anger for people who spent cruor on the atmacite of discipline.

I also think a haste roll would either be too much, or just so weak when they implement it that it doesnt even matter; both of those will end up with it getting nerfed and made useless whether its at the start or after its proven overpowered.

[Yinnyth]

You know, I read a lot of people talking about how cor would go back to being a unimportant or undesired job. In my mind, Cor will always be desirable; probably because I have a bard for everything I do and that there is no reason to come to anything with a 2nd bard, especially with Darabula in the picture. Don't get me wrong, I completely dislike this update, but even without misers id put a cor with the dd party if they had a bard.

Actually, they're not so much saying that cor will be worthless, they're saying that if you have to choose between cor or brd, you'd choose brd. Your arguments are that if a bard is in the party, then corsair is pretty neat. I'm guessing you'd probably agree that bard does more for the party than corsair.

Which I should mention is ok because bard's ability to deal damage is significantly lower than corsair's. However, bard makes up for this with their ability to pull, debuff, crowd-control, and help with whm duties vastly better than corsair could, so bard is overall a better choice.

[saevel]

Actually, they're not so much saying that cor will be worthless, they're saying that if you have to choose between cor or brd, you'd choose brd. Your arguments are that if a bard is in the party, then corsair is pretty neat. I'm guessing you'd probably agree that bard does more for the party than corsair.

Which I should mention is ok because bard's ability to deal damage is significantly lower than corsair's. However, bard makes up for this with their ability to pull, debuff, crowd-control, and help with whm duties vastly better than corsair could, so bard is overall a better choice.

There is currently ~NO~ situation where you choose one from the other. You need both for Voidwatch. Upcoming Legion encourages big groups thus no issue there. This leaves Nyzule isle as the only 6-man content, and COR is just as useful as BRD, both have light based sleeps and the COR does a hellova lot more damage then the BRD, especially if they have WF.

[Neisan_Quetz]

... Which is mostly nullified by the amount of damage brd adds to the other DDs post nerf. Cor doesn't come close especially with their lower WS frequency post nerf.

[Theytak]

tl;dr

This is why it's be firm belief that rather than trying to debate and discuss with the devs, we should debate and discuss amongst ourselves, then devise a system of numbers, pictures, and pictograms with which we can clearly and easily communicate our opinions in a way that contains no subtle hints or nuances, is straightforward, direct, and incredibly blunt, and cannot ever be lost in translation.

[Pootersmash]

The real issue that I have isn't cor vs brd, or cor's overall usefulness, or anything along that line. The point I want to make to the devs is that they are destroying a perfectly reasonable game mechanic, purely because it is broken in ONE situation.

Please, please, please... "Fix" the situation that causes it to be broken, not the entire mechanic. It is not very powerful as is outside of VW, it's actually about 50% useless(needing lucky/11 rolls to have an effect). After the "Fix" it will be 95% useless, and now 50% useless in VW.

I fully agree with the reasoning as to why it needs be adjusted inside of Voidwatch. 70-80tp after every WS is a bit over the top. but I don't see how 40tp after a WS is over the top everywhere else, seeing as it requires a cor, and requires some luck to actually achieve it.

Aside from this, it is actually EASIER for you to either change the Atmacite in question, or simply cap tp gained after WS to 50. With your proposed change, you have to adjust the mechanic as a whole(more likely to have unintended consequences), and then also change SAM's JA.

[Mirabelle]

Has anyone tested this out as to whether the nerf was implemented. I went briefly out the other day on COR and seemed to be getting Miser's and WS TP stacking still. My eyeball test may not have been totally accurate since I was running tacticians and taking damage.

[Greatguardian]

Has anyone tested this out as to whether the nerf was implemented. I went briefly out the other day on COR and seemed to be getting Miser's and WS TP stacking still. My eyeball test may not have been totally accurate since I was running tacticians and taking damage.

This was not implemented in the Monday update.

[Mirabelle]

OK so my eyeball test was accurate after all. Guess we get a reprieve for a few weeks at least. Hope they are actually reconsidering the notion.

[Saiken253]

It actually will make the potential of the amount of TP "return" you get much much lower. You will no longer get above 25~30 tp from your WSs anymore because of this "update" where as before, especially on sam, i frequently got 60~80 tp return(yes, i could WS in the next 1-2 hits lol...). So this is really a nerf.

[Camate]

Since Hagakure is a one-time ability that grants an effect to the next weapon skill used and does not give a full-time benefit, based off of your feedback and dev./QA team testing, we have decided to increase the effect a bit.

While it won’t make it in time for tomorrow’s test server update, the save TP amount for Hagakure will be increase from 35 to 40.

[Neisan_Quetz]

How about not making miser's roll completely useless? Was that ever given thought? Especially after the bullcrap line involving Save TP and Conserve TP effects on one character, when Save TP and Conserve TP don't stack?

[Brolic]

Since Hagakure is a one-time ability that grants an effect to the next weapon skill used and does not give a full-time benefit, based off of your feedback and dev./QA team testing, we have decided to increase the effect a bit.

While it won’t make it in time for tomorrow’s test server update, the save TP amount for Hagakure will be increase from 35 to 40.
run away... now

[SpankWustler]

How about not making miser's roll completely useless? Was that ever given thought? Especially after the bullcrap line involving Save TP and Conserve TP effects on one character, when Save TP and Conserve TP don't stack?

This sums up my thoughts and feelings as well, tone and all.

[Ophannus]

Since Hagakure is a one-time ability that grants an effect to the next weapon skill used and does not give a full-time benefit, based off of your feedback and dev./QA team testing, we have decided to increase the effect a bit.

While it won’t make it in time for tomorrow’s test server update, the save TP amount for Hagakure will be increase from 35 to 40.

I'll try and hold them back while you make a break for it! Fly you fool!

[SpankWustler]

I'll try and hold them back while you make a break for it! Fly you fool!

You are no match for me!

http://troll.me/images/butthurt-dweller/i-shall-pass-stealth-fart.jpg

[Kristal]

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

[Brolic]

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.


New value|__________________|_________________|Old value

what are we missing? hint, it begins with a "B"

[Greatguardian]

I ain't even mad.

It's more a numb feeling at this point.

[SpankWustler]

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

Very few people are making the claim that weaponskills returns of 60 TP weren't ridiculous, even if they were fun. The chief, if not only, complaint is that the new way Store TP is calculated is absolutely awful for Miser's Roll.

There are lots of other ways Save TP's effects could have been made more reasonable without Miser's Roll being made Voidwatch-only in the process.

[Aldersyde]

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

It's kind of galling at this point where some jobs are getting nerfed for barance-sake while SAM just keeps getting boosted, no matter how small it may be.

[Starry]

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

Did you coast all the way to 766 posts with that kinda nonsense?

[Dragoy]

Did you coast all the way to 766 posts with that kinda nonsense?
For what it is worth, Kristal has posted a lot of 'nonsense' that I can remember.

You?

Not so much.
Which takes us to the point of your point: What is it?

Did you have something to say about them adjustments on TP-Gained through the use of Weapon Skills¿?

Where is it!


As for me, I'm not sure what to think about it.
I often do play as a Samurai, but I do not do Voidwatch, at all, so that might have quite a bit of an effect to the conversation on-going so I will just not say a thing... of any.

[Yinnyth]

Damn guys, stop bitching about this already. Save TP was horrendously overpowered, it had to be changed one way or the other.

Setting aside the point that I love, and have always loved your siggy for now...

Save TP is overpowered in one and only one circumstance: Voidwatch. The reason for this is because with a corsair and high TP-return WSs and the correct atmacite, you would be capable of more than 60 TP returned per WS. THIS IS NOT DISPUTED AS OVERPOWERED. The reason people object to the changes is that Miser's Roll will not be used anywhere but voidwatch, and I argue that after the changes it shouldn't even be used in voidwatch.

I'm a bard by trade. It's my most serious job in the game. Even I think that haste is more overpowered than save TP, and it's the one thing that makes my primary job so enticing in parties. The solution for save TP should be the same as it is for haste. A hard cap. Or hell, a hard cap on maximum TP return.

[Quetzacoatl]

Since Hagakure is a one-time ability that grants an effect to the next weapon skill used and does not give a full-time benefit, based off of your feedback and dev./QA team testing, we have decided to increase the effect a bit.

While it won’t make it in time for tomorrow’s test server update, the save TP amount for Hagakure will be increase from 35 to 40.

GODDAMN IT, NO

SAMURAI NEEDS NOTHING MORE. THIS IS NON-NEGOTIABLE.

[Seha]

Camate is now on top of the hate list.
And I wanna see you blood tank all this, not evade like you've been doing.

[Esvedium]

THIS IS NOT BALANCE!

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Camate is now on top of the hate list.
And I wanna see you blood tank all this, not evade like you've been doing.

To be fair, he's only the messenger.

[Mirabelle]

I can't believe they saw fit to fix a SAM ability while not addressing the overwhelming feedback from COR's and non-COR's alike.

How can Carnate even feel good about himself saying this change for the SAM JA was due to "feedback" No one has even commented in the billion posts about the SAM ability. What feedback?

/rant

I hate SE.

[Jomen]

So, sam gets a boost to Hagakure and everyone QQs? That isn't the point of this. Really SAM is, and has always been, about storing tp and using it effectively, the only job that comes close to it is dnc. For all you lolsams that only play it because you thought ukko and vere were getting nerfed. Go cry some where else, there's no point. If they nerf save tp and kept hagakure at the same level of save tp (I usually get 18-20 tp back on wses) then there'd be no point to the job ability besides tp bonus. I'm surprised no one has cried about us having a hagun ability, but whatevs.

As for the true nature of this, I don't agree with nerfs, but saying that SAM is being favored, in this case, is inaccurate. I don't like that they pulled power away from Corsair though. I feel like this was one of the main reasons why COR shined so much in the past few months. With their ability to fire off wildfires almost back to back with saving tp as well as buffing a party and making them go ws crazy haha. But honestly, I've never seen misers used outside of VW to begin with. Most of the time I see chaos/tact rolls in abyssea....or anywhere else that isn't VW. Still though, taking away utility from a job is pretty weak, no good se...no good.

[cidbahamut]

So, sam gets a boost to Hagakure and everyone QQs?

You're missing the point.

The Save TP change kicked Miser's Roll to the rubbish heap and nothing has been done to make Miser's Roll remotely viable. The SAM JA was hacked down to "moderately less useful than before but still useful" and SE comes along and gives it a boost, while conveniently ignoring Miser's Roll which is in dire need of some love now. Pair this with the long history of SE treating SAM as something of a favored job and there should be zero surprise that there is resentment over it and outright hostility.

[Aldersyde]

As for the true nature of this, I don't agree with nerfs, but saying that SAM is being favored, in this case, is inaccurate.

I want to hear you reasoning on this. The way I see it, SE trashed miser's roll, which pretty much made things worse for every other dd out there. Now, they're saying that hagakure is being boosted. It's a small boost, but it's still a boost. When I see the majority off dds being worse off and see one job given a boost for compensation, I'd say that there's some favoritism going on in regards to SAM.

But go ahead, show me how my thinking is wrong.

[Quetzacoatl]

Camate is now on top of the hate list.
I don't hate Camate, I hate the Development team at SE headquarters for thinking that they haven't boosted SAM enough, when it clearly is already overpowered

[saevel]

I want to hear you reasoning on this. The way I see it, SE trashed miser's roll, which pretty much made things worse for every other dd out there. Now, they're saying that hagakure is being boosted. It's a small boost, but it's still a boost. When I see the majority off dds being worse off and see one job given a boost for compensation, I'd say that there's some favoritism going on in regards to SAM.

But go ahead, show me how my thinking is wrong.

That's because the way Hagakure is now, once they make this change it won't do anything. The nerf to Save TP is also a Nerf to SAM as they can no longer use Hagakure to jump to the next WS. SE is upping the value so that it's not completely worthless as an ability.

So yes, SE is nerfing SAM, just not as hard as their nerfing Misers roll.

[Aldersyde]

That's because the way Hagakure is now, once they make this change it won't do anything. The nerf to Save TP is also a Nerf to SAM as they can no longer use Hagakure to jump to the next WS. SE is upping the value so that it's not completely worthless as an ability.

So yes, SE is nerfing SAM, just not as hard as their nerfing Misers roll.

Which is basically what I said. All dds get nerfed on save tp but sam got a boost to hagakure, even if it is small. It's the equivalent of a pat on the head and saying "Don't worry, we still love you!", while basically telling every other dd to suck it. It was totally unnecessary when SAM is a very strong job as is.

Inb4 some sam starts whining about how they were hosed in abyssea.

[SpankWustler]

Going from +20 Save TP to +40 Save TP will keep Hagakure pretty the same for Samurai after the change, assuming a five-hit build. It makes sense that it should remain roughly the same; Hagakure is a 3 minute recast ability that lasts one weaponskill. The effect should be nice.

The Development Bros okaying the more-or-less current effects of Hagakure taking place ever begs the question, though. What's so overwhelming about Miser's Roll when not combined with other (typically Voidwatch-specific) sources of extra TP that it can not be adjusted as well? Do the Development Bros just dislike miserly people?

Maybe the adjustment shouldn't be as drastic as that of Hagakure, since Miser's Roll is active forever and ever. I still don't understand the reasoning behind updating one ability to retain it's current use and leaving the other as highly, highly situational.

[saevel]

Which is basically what I said. All dds get nerfed on save tp but sam got a boost to hagakure, even if it is small. It's the equivalent of a pat on the head and saying "Don't worry, we still love you!", while basically telling every other dd to suck it. It was totally unnecessary when SAM is a very strong job as is.

Inb4 some sam starts whining about how they were hosed in abyssea.

Wow, I didn't know other DD's had an ability that gave them Save TP on the next WS.

[Mirabelle]

Wow, I didn't know other DD's had an ability that gave them Save TP on the next WS.

Yes its that little dice icon on the top of the screen. Requires a COR to be in your party to activate.

[Pootersmash]

I also didn't realize sam was immune to that little dice symbol... They still lose the same amount of save tp as every other job. Regardless of the power of sams, I'm sure you would not be happy if the primary purpose of one of your JA's was rendered null and void due to a mechanic's change(that still shouldn't happen).

Regardless, the point still remains that save tp should not be handled in this way. Alter the atmacite, or place a cap. that is what everybody is telling you, please do it. Yes, it is overpowered in Voidwatch, so fix it there only.

[Siiri]

SAM is SE's spoiled little brat job. Certainly not shocked SE is favoring them once again.

[Leylia]

I agree with almost everyone that this change of the mechanics of save tp is the dumbest way to fix the situation we have in VW when everyone just chains WSs back to back making a brew look like it wouldn't be anything special. Not only does it seem to require more effort than simply changing the Atmacite but its changes range much further than said situation which harbors the issues. I would also plead for your cause and say keep the roll like it is and don'tmake it useless.

However, I do not see the justice in everyone bashing on the change of Hagakure. The said "boost" brings it to exactly the same point where it was before anyway, so there is no enhancement whatsoever. I have a TP return after a WS (used with Hagakure in effect) of 38-39TP and now, after the change, I will recieve 40TP. Everyone claiming this is a boost -to make the math complete, we are talking about 1-2TP every 3minutes- is not really sane. Let us now look at the roll under normal circumstances:

Let us assume our cor hit the jackpot, an 11 so the save tp amount is 25:
a) System as of now
SAM gets back 25 + 18 or 19 = 43 or 44 (+25)
THF gets back lets go as high as 25 + 12 = 37 = +25

Result both get the same benefit from the roll

b) Future system
SAM gets back 25TP = +7 or +6 from WS without save tp
THF gets back 25TP = +13 from WS without save tp

Result: Thf gets double the bonus than SAM gets from the new system

Now I wanna ask you: do you still consider SAM the big winner in this situation (which is the most beneficial for SAM, lower rolls will yield NO bonus to SAM while other jobs still would recieve some)? It works exactly like that for all other set ups as well, the bonus for lower TP return WSs and jobs is bigger than the bonus for the high tp return WSs. So compared to now, where a SAM gets the same boost as all other jobs, in the future it will get less than most others out of the save tp effect, no matter the source, no matter the amount you actually have.

Conclusion: while it is dumb to change a whole system because of one situation and while it is even more dumb to rob one of the best abilities from a job, stop complaining about SAM favoritsm here. Search that somewhere else where it might even be true, here it simply isn't.

PS: I assumed those 12TP since I do not exactly know what the average TP return is on a THF with a dagger that sports a delay of 190

[saevel]

Yes its that little dice icon on the top of the screen. Requires a COR to be in your party to activate.

So ... DDs ability's are a COR ...
Yeah you know, SAM's get those too, that JA doesn't interfere with them.

All SE did was prevent a JA from becoming less then useless.

[Aldersyde]

All SE did was prevent a JA from becoming less then useless.

How nice of them, too bad the same consideration wasn't given to COR's JA....unless you think that the change to miser's roll is somehow beneficial now?

Hagakure wasn't even necessary when it was introduced. SAM had a pretty deep bag of tricks already.

[Mirabelle]

So ... DDs ability's are a COR ...
Yeah you know, SAM's get those too, that JA doesn't interfere with them.

All SE did was prevent a JA from becoming less then useless.

Sure save a JA that wasn't necessary and kill a JA on a job that's had trouble for years maintaining a foothold in Vanadiel. While a powerful job, COR was always second fiddle to BRD due to the lack of Haste and second fiddle to other DD due to ammo options and B ranked weapons. And on top of it the job costs gil.

How much gil did SAM spend on any of their JA? How much did COR spend on Miser's roll?

Save TP nerf kills the roll unless SE starts adding in a ton of Save TP gear to stack with it. You can argue it will continue in VWNM, but given DD don't know if they will be with a COR they won't be rocking Discipline anymore as its a useless atmacite without a COR for any two hander.

[saevel]

Sure save a JA that wasn't necessary and kill a JA on a job that's had trouble for years maintaining a foothold in Vanadiel. While a powerful job, COR was always second fiddle to BRD due to the lack of Haste and second fiddle to other DD due to ammo options and B ranked weapons. And on top of it the job costs gil.

How much gil did SAM spend on any of their JA? How much did COR spend on Miser's roll?

Save TP nerf kills the roll unless SE starts adding in a ton of Save TP gear to stack with it. You can argue it will continue in VWNM, but given DD don't know if they will be with a COR they won't be rocking Discipline anymore as its a useless atmacite without a COR for any two hander.

WTF are you smoking?

COR was always wanting for the express purpose that it's buffs stack with BRD's. Ever since it was introduced you put DD x 3 + BRD + COR + Healer in your DD pt. If your were really good you'd have the healer in a different party and put a fourth DD in that slot. March x 2 + Chaos + either the Sam or War roll was the zerg setup of choice. This was years before Abyssea was ever introduced.

[Mirabelle]

WTF are you smoking?

COR was always wanting for the express purpose that it's buffs stack with BRD's. Ever since it was introduced you put DD x 3 + BRD + COR + Healer in your DD pt. If your were really good you'd have the healer in a different party and put a fourth DD in that slot. March x 2 + Chaos + either the Sam or War roll was the zerg setup of choice. This was years before Abyssea was ever introduced.

That was COR's one niche and it was years ago. But since meripo was not the only endgame activity, COR was generally not overly welcome over BRD in most other endgame events. Given that fact and the fact it cost serious Gil to level, there was never more than 15 COR's on the server even in the meripo heyday. That's what I mean by a foothold. Plenty of folks tell me they never ever had a COR in their party for any event up until the VW craze.

[Jomen]

I won't go back and address every person that commented with my reference but I will address most of the concerns although I think Saevel has already done this.

Why do I think that Sam was not favored with this boost. NOTHING CHANGED. Basically, the original form of hagakure did not have the save tp limitations that are being implemented so I have already been getting back 40 tp per ws (tachi: shoha). With the new system in place, my save tp on a ja will be nerfed just like miser's roll. Now, why change hagakure to something significant again and keep the nerf on miser's? I think a poster said it best, "the save tp ja comes from cors". Other dds have different strengths they're trying to get into. I know drgs, wars, and drks with 5 hit builds too that don't need miser's rolls to do damage every few seconds. This is part of learning to play your job better. Sams are used to getting tp back at an alarming rate and good sams at the moment can do a 5 hit haste capped build if they know where to look. The lolsams that don't are usually not getting 40 tp back from hagakure or even 18 from wses. That said, again, SAM is about TP. Cor is about buffing. Why nerf a job who is based in tp so that you can please a group of cors who have waaaay more buffs to pick from. Thank god they didn't nerf the regain roll eh?

As for me "missing the point". In my original post I addressed this. But this isn't a direct attack against corsairs either. They didn't say "we're nerfing miser's roll" they said they're adjusting the save tp trait. This also affects equipment (sam equipment, dnc equipment, etc) and many other aspects of the game. I still don't believe that they should hurt corsair's utility as a job but maybe they have plans coming down the road later. Also, let me point something out, miser's roll is relatively new!! Before vw, it wasn't even used and people were beating lots of mega bosses without it. You don't need super save tp to win things. Easy button doesn't solve everything. Remember how to use strategy and smart playing and you'll be able to pwn like back in the 75 cap days when miser's roll was just a DD's wet dream.

[Mirabelle]

Cor is about buffing. Why nerf a job who is based in tp so that you can please a group of cors who have waaaay more buffs to pick from. Thank god they didn't nerf the regain roll eh?

The whole idea of progressing to level 99 for COR would presumably mean getting new rolls that add further power to the job. If we are just going to be using old 75 level rolls, why bother advancing the job at all? Tactician's/Miser's are the only two of the whole batch of 76-99 rolls that gets any use from most COR's. With the nerf, it will only be Tactician's. That's one roll in 700k gil of new rolls. Did BRD not get upgraded songs across all their lines? Are they using only level 75 songs these days?

COR is a buffing job that had found a niche in VW due to a powerful roll. That's being nerfed to a level where the roll becomes totally useless. I've put up with useless rolls on COR, but never had one that was useful become useless with a change in formula. We're not talking a minor tweak to balance it. We are talking making it totally useless.

All COR's are asking is to turn Save TP into a capped trait. 50TP returned makes it still powerful and doesn't make it totally useless. And it nerfs it to a level where all here pretty much agree its reasonable as far as balance.

[SpankWustler]

Thank god they didn't nerf the regain roll eh?

I would have preferred a heavy-handed change to regain to the heavy-handed change to Save TP, actually. Save TP interacts more nicely with delay reduction and other things which can actually render regain useless if folks are engaged. Regain is actually found outside of Miser's Roll, Hagakure, and one Atmacite so it would also give the Development Bros a more gratifying sensation to make Regain somehow worse.

I'm not sure why you want to interpret all these posts as people saying Hagakure shouldn't be adjusted. A few folks definitely are, for some weird reason, but I don't think people venting some bile via one-liners on the internet matters that much.

It's more like watching a plumber fix the toilet in one bathroom and leave the other as a broken poo-swamp. It's nice to have that one bathroom fixed, because climbing onto the neighbors' roof at 4 AM and pooping down their chimney was a tiring thing and this metaphor is getting weird, but it makes a bro question what that plumber is thinking.

When this change was announced, stuff about Conserve TP was mentioned when Conserve TP doesn't stack with Save TP in a viable way. A lot of people complained and the response was basically "You see me adjustin', you be hatin'...I shall continue adjustin' normally." without any elaboration on why a hard cap wasn't considered instead or on how Conserve TP works or doesn't work alongside Save TP.

At this point, I'd just like to know what led Development Bros to make the change exactly the way they made it. Then I can write a novella about hallucinated insects, Fransisco can stick Tanaka's head on top of Emperor Palpatine or maybe a penguin, everybody can wear the numbers or letters off their Chaos Roll macros, and the world can turn onward.

[Greatguardian]

WTF are you smoking?

COR was always wanting for the express purpose that it's buffs stack with BRD's. Ever since it was introduced you put DD x 3 + BRD + COR + Healer in your DD pt. If your were really good you'd have the healer in a different party and put a fourth DD in that slot. March x 2 + Chaos + either the Sam or War roll was the zerg setup of choice. This was years before Abyssea was ever introduced.

I think you mean BRD+DNC+Healer + DDx3. COR's buffs never touched BRD or DNC, and going from 3 DDs to 2 + Cor meant the Cor's buffs would have to add over 50% Damage to each of the remaining DDs to be worthwhile. That never happened, and thus COR was fairly useless at 75. Also: Curaga was/is king in zergs. Putting the healer in an off party was not an elite move, but a dumb one that is really only suited for merit parties.

COR was only ever choice on things like lv75-80 Absolute Virtue where the added attack was a big deal and the COR could just drop from the party after rolling to get the Bard in (thereby not taking up a slot at all).

[saevel]

If you do this adjustment on Save TP... and increase the SAM JA... Miser's Roll needs also a Buffs !

I was really having fun in Voidwatch as COR those days... Now, I'm a little unconfident for the future. :/

Miser's Roll Buffs please ! >_<

I'm totally for buffing Miser's roll if their going to change how Save TP works.

[Kristal]

Did you coast all the way to 766 posts with that kinda nonsense?

Hardly, I'm not Mellowy... To be fair, I'm pretty much across the board with posts, so there's bound to be some nonsense ones. Keep in mind though, that opinions don't have to be nonsense just because they don't match yours. And if someone can show me my line of reasoning is wrong, I will acknowledge that as well.

In this case though, I was targetting the general response to the upcoming nerf. There is a lot of gnashing of teeth, and very little thought behind it. Some people actually have worthwhile arguments to offer, but they get lost in a sea of vitriolic comments.

[Mirabelle]

I think you mean BRD+DNC+Healer + DDx3. COR's buffs never touched BRD or DNC, and going from 3 DDs to 2 + Cor meant the Cor's buffs would have to add over 50% Damage to each of the remaining DDs to be worthwhile. That never happened, and thus COR was fairly useless at 75. Also: Curaga was/is king in zergs. Putting the healer in an off party was not an elite move, but a dumb one that is really only suited for merit parties.

COR was only ever choice on things like lv75-80 Absolute Virtue where the added attack was a big deal and the COR could just drop from the party after rolling to get the Bard in (thereby not taking up a slot at all).

I think only a small population knew that BRD + DNC was better than BRD + COR due to the fact that haste remains king. Of course most Meripos I was involved with were happy to just get one buffing job.


Edit (to keep on topic): And devs, if you read this, listen to what every COR and non-COR has said about Save TP: put in a cap!

[cidbahamut]

Edit (to keep on topic): And devs, if you read this, listen to what every COR and non-COR has said about Save TP: put in a cap!

Update notes:
* changing how Save TP works
* Save TP now caps at X
* trollface.jpg

[Yinnyth]

Let me list all the reasons I think this change sucks:

1. Miser's roll becomes worthless except in situations where the cor and all the DDs have other sources of save-TP which are greater than miser's roll to begin with (none of those situations currently exist ingame).

2. Voidwrought's atmacite, which most avid voidwatchers have already spent at least half a million cruor into, becomes worthless unless you currently have miser's roll on. If you have miser's roll on, shame on your corsair.

3. If enough save-TP gear, or a save-TP song, or another save-TP atmacite are added to the game, we run into the same problem again: ridiculous TP return on WSs.

4. Save-TP and store-TP will no longer stack, so it will be best to gear towards either one or the other.

5. Hagakure's save-TP effect becomes worthless and it would only be used for its TP bonus effect (addressed by the devs).

So why haven't the other 4 problems been addressed or even acknowleged? My best guess is that the Japanese players don't view these things as problems at all, but since I can't read Japanese, I can't say for certain. (I'm not saying this with disdain for Japanese players- merely acknowleging that there are more JP players than NA and as such, the devs are likely to overlook a complaint if only NA players are making it.)

[Kristal]

So why haven't the other 4 problems been addressed or even acknowleged?

Because they might not be problems?

With Save TP, you will always gain TP after a WS. Even when Conserve TP and Store TP will fail you.
* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin
* Inhibit TP
* Enemy TP accumulation (New effect, Phorcys Schuhs has PD:ETA-10%. What if you fight a NM with -50% or -90%?)


And what if SE decides that Save TP also guards against Absorb TP and TP Reset effects such as Feather Tickle? (Weapon swap TP loss might go a bit too far.) Maybe worth checking it out on the test server, and offer it to SE as a suggestion?

[Neisan_Quetz]

... /Facepalm...

[Mirabelle]

With Save TP, you will always gain TP after a WS. Even when Conserve TP and Store TP will fail you.
* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin
* Inhibit TP
* Enemy TP accumulation (New effect, Phorcys Schuhs has PD:ETA-10%. What if you fight a NM with -50% or -90%?)

None of these situations occur frequently enough to necessitate a full time roll or a full time atmacite.

Yinnyth points remain totally valid.

Since they told us what the save TP change will do, I can't see how testing it out on the test server will be of any value. We know what the save TP mechanic will be. We know Save TP as a passive trait would help you in certain situations like missing WS's. But as a JA on SAM and an Active roll for COR or an infused atmacite, its going to be superceded in effect by any number of other options that give persistent and more frequent benefits.

[Yinnyth]

With Save TP, you will always gain TP after a WS. Even when Conserve TP and Store TP will fail you.
* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin


I cut out the last 2 scenarios you outlined because they don't exist ingame yet (if ever), so they're not worth arguing for or against.

PD, invinc, and immunity, you really shouldn't be WSing into anyways, but on the offchance you get screwed by bad timing, you're still gonna spend 30 or more seconds not building TP regardless of whether or not your WS gave you TP, so the ~18 TP you get back (estimated save-TP on an average miser's roll... may vary depending on your corsair's luck/stupidity) would be nothing compared to the ~30 TP that tactician's roll would get you (estimating 3/tick on average) during the 30 seconds of PD/invinc.

Shadows? Yeah, I suppose that VW beetle can be annoying with shadows. He's also annoying with evasion, so building TP on him in the first place is just a pain in the ass. If you're trying to get melees to proc him, better off with rng and tactician's rolls.

Whiffing the WS? If this problem is common to the point where save-TP becomes a useful fallback, you're better off with rng roll. Because not only does RNG roll increase your chances of getting full TP after a WS, but it also increases the chances of your WS actually doing damage, which miser's roll does not do.

[Kristal]

I cut out the last 2 scenarios you outlined because they don't exist ingame yet (if ever), so they're not worth arguing for or against.

Oh, I'm sorry.. I wasn't aware Yurin:Ichi, Penance and Phorcys Schuhs were not in the game yet. Or are they???
And it would be unthinkable for SE to give different levels of ETA to existing/future NMs, would it...

And yes, the other situations are not going to be a factor for every WS you do. Low levels of Save TP will be worthless as they will be below average TP return at all times. But that goes for a lot of stats.

Save TP is a relatively new effect that was implemented poorly, but people have grown addicted to it.
No matter how it's going to be changed, people are going to have to go cold turkey. COR will lose it's glamour time spotlight, and can go play checkers with the RDM again.

[SpankWustler]

* First hit misses
* Shadows
* Perfect Dodge
* Invincible/100% damage immunity/Stoneskin

If you're using weaponskills under these situations often, I feel bad for you son, you have 99 problems but Save TP's function ain't one. Not worth considering.

The first hit should miss a around 5% of the time on most content and Hunter's Roll would be a better choice if it's occurring more often. The other situations occur even more rarely than that.


* Inhibit TP
* Enemy TP accumulation (New effect, Phorcys Schuhs has PD:ETA-10%. What if you fight a NM with -50% or -90%?

These would be worth considering if they existed for enemies. However, they don't. I'm not sure that they never will, but it seems silly to assume any meaningful number of new monsters are going to get anything that isn't a bunch of HP, an AoE or two, and maybe - just maybe - an annoying Silence or Bio aura.

Implementing something poorly isn't a good reason to change it poorly as well. I realize there are some Development Bros who enjoy doing things poorly and their feelings matter too, so the change will probably pass as-is, but I might as well complain anyway.

[Mirabelle]

Implementing something poorly isn't a good reason to change it poorly as well. I realize there are some Development Bros who enjoy doing things poorly and their feelings matter too, so the change will probably pass as-is, but I might as well complain anyway.

Yes, I wonder sometimes if it isn't just plain old human pride that leads to these decisions. SE suggests one approach, the community universally recommends another, and SE just goes all pig-headed about it. We've got 18 pages of discussion here where everyone says, yes Save TP was broken and a cap would be a good fix. Yet at no time has anyone from the community team addressed why a cap isn't being considered, why they are sticking with their guns to make Miser's roll useless, etc.

Even a simple word, to say, "we are doing it this way since more Save TP gear will be added in the future", would be welcome.

But I suspect they are just sitting there saying, "Well, really what the players were saying is right, but how do we change it and make it look like we weren't idiots in the first place?"

[Jomen]

All COR's are asking is to turn Save TP into a capped trait. 50TP returned makes it still powerful and doesn't make it totally useless. And it nerfs it to a level where all here pretty much agree its reasonable as far as balance.

I completely agree, I also have COR leveled, it's one of my lesser used jobs because I hate being forced to do one thing in battle since I don't have an empy gun. However, if I did whip it out, I would want it to make a big impact. I think you're on the right track of having it with a higher cap. Or at least stack on top of the lolbalanced save tp they are implementing.



I'm not sure why you want to interpret all these posts as people saying Hagakure shouldn't be adjusted. A few folks definitely are, for some weird reason, but I don't think people venting some bile via one-liners on the internet matters that much.

Lol, basically, the first couple of pages are QQs about hagakure and SAM getting too much. That's why I mentioned the "things won't change" portion of my post. Sams are gonna get tp faster than you period. That's just the way the world works. That said, you made a lot more valid points then this in your post. I am confused even now as to how conserve tp actually affects anything. Does it work along side save tp to reduce the amount even more? Is it a percentage chance to conserve? Is it useful at all? I weapon skill in conserve tp shoes and I don't personally see a huge tp difference. That said, I haven't really been playing much lately :/ Maybe I'll come back when Legion or "Super VoidWatch III:revenge of the logs" (turbo edition) is announced.

[SpankWustler]

I am confused even now as to how conserve tp actually affects anything. Does it work along side save tp to reduce the amount even more? Is it a percentage chance to conserve? Is it useful at all? I weapon skill in conserve tp shoes and I don't personally see a huge tp difference.

What's known for certain: It's very similar to Conserve MP in some ways and very different in others. The similarity is that equipment only affects the proc rate (base 25%) and not the amount, and the difference is that the amount conserved is always 1 to 20. As you tell from reading this and from your experience, Conserve TP doesn't exactly return buckets of TP.

What's foggier: How Conserve TP does or doesn't stack with Save TP exactly. This is a hard thing to test because it requires time to gain TP, certain buffs on certain jobs, consistency across weaponskills, and some other awful stuff that skips my mind at present.

No one has ever once reported that the two simply stack straight-up, yet this would be very easy to see if a high-end Conserve TP activation that provided 10-20 TP occured in Voidwatch or under the effects of Miser's Roll and only one single occurrence would be needed to prove the possibility. Since that one occurrence has yet to be reported, it seems unlikely they stack in a straight-forward manner if at all.

If they do "stack", it seems more likely that the higher amount between the two simply wins. Given that most sources of Save TP are over 20 at present, this would have the same end effect as the two traits not stacking at all.

It's very possible more people were complaining about Hagakure being adjusted than I originally thought. The many one-sentence-long "They're favoring Samurai because SE employees also enjoy rice balls! I HAVE RAGE!" posts read about the same while I was skimming the topic for meatier posts so I just figured they were from the same handful of people.

[Mirabelle]

So I assume SE's silence over the last week since implementing changes on the test server is recognition that they just don't give a damn about our opinion.

A simple explanation as to why a cap is undoable would be kind.

[Byrth]

They said they're adding a cap system and a voucher system last week. You can even pick which boss floor you'd like to be capped out.

[SpankWustler]

They said they're adding a cap system and a voucher system last week. You can even pick which boss floor you'd like to be capped out.

Edit: Oh, you were replying to the idea that they were silent about all the changes on the test server. In that case, my joke made no sense! I R DUM!

[hiko]

Lgn. Gt. Katana 1 Rare Exclusive

Great Katana
DMG:117 Delay:450 STR+5 Attack+10 "Save TP"+25
Lv 99 SAM
here is why they don't just put a cap on save tp
Now you can start QQ that SAM get everything

[SpankWustler]

here is why they don't just put a cap on save tp
Now you can start QQ that SAM get everything

Using Tachi: Shoha, a Samurai would already get back 16 TP minimum with that thing. It's very unlikely an extra 9 TP is cutting down on the number of hits needed to reach 100 TP.

All 25 Save TP on a two-handed weapon will really do is let a bro Weaponskill in full Weaponskill damage gear without worrying about Store TP and maybe take a few Store TP pieces out of his or her TP set. It would be an improvement for sure, but very far from going into Voidwatch-mode and cutting one's time to 100 TP in half.

Post-adjustment Save TP will certainly be more useful on equipment than on an outside buff, since it's a lot easier to change your Store TP equipment to match your other equipment than to match a buff you may not have (and that may not be worth having).

[hiko]

on itself I agree it's nothing big, stack with atmacite and you save one hit per round(+some extra TP), if you get roll, you're back to pre nerf TP return.

[SpankWustler]

on itself I agree it's nothing big, stack with atmacite and you save one hit per round(+some extra TP), if you get roll, you're back to pre nerf TP return.

Apparently, there's a hard cap of 50 now, too. (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/108199-Random-Facts-Thread-Other?p=5078765&viewfull=1#post5078765)

So, even TP gain for corner cases within Voidwatch is going to be worse than TP gain before the change by about half-a-hit. It's good, but not "before the change" good. I'm not sure what the implications of all this are, because of Regain and other stuff also found in Voidwatch, but the Development Bros really have truly made Save TP less effective across the board.

I'm happy to see a hard cap even though I strongly dislike the main bits of the change to Save TP. It prevents the same problem they've awkwardly solved from just popping up again later and being solved even more awkwardly with even more severity.

I have no idea why I'm taking such an interest in this. I guess the dedication that the Development Bros have to making something worse, which seems far-too-often absent when they attempt to make something better, is impressive to me on some level.

[Mirabelle]

Glad they added in the cap like we suggested lol. Too bad they kept their save TP neutering idea as well.

Guess I'll enjoy Misers roll for now then never use it again when the nerf hits. Wish I could get that 500k cruor I spent on that atmacite back.

[Greatguardian]

No wonder they ignored our plea for a cap. They were doing that anyways in addition to the mega nerfs. Go figure.

[cidbahamut]

Update notes:
* changing how Save TP works
* Save TP now caps at X
* trollface.jpg
I told you guys this was going to happen.

[SpankWustler]

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/imagebuzz/terminal01/2011/1/27/14/troll-faces-hit-finland-14519-1296157290-20.jpg

[Fupafighter]

SO lemme get this straight. We already get shafted on drops in VW, so they decide they want to make our means of killing the NM alot slower, and then tell us they will be reducing the amount of temps we recieve via proc, and they aren't going to increase the drop rate, but will give us claim slips, so that people who ALREADY HAVE the item can sell. I think they should atleast make claim slips so you don't have to obtain the item, but can take claim slip right away. I know plenty of people who will be annoiyed that they have to keep their coruscanti that they want to drop, just for that .02% chance that another may drop to them and they may sell it. Seems almost RETARDED to me.

[Dragoy]

troll-faces-hit-finland-14519-1296157290-20.jpg
Heh, I can't read the smaller text, but the title is basically something like “Objective: Harassment” or “The purpose being harassment”...
Can't really think of a better translation right now. Tired.

And further in, it speaks of how “spammers and trolls kill conversations in the internet-communities with their behaviour”.

Is that your purpose?
Is that what you want?

Well, do ya!?

On another note, the heading on the lower-left says: “12 years of imprisonment to for taking a head”. No idea what head, how it was taken, or/and where it was taken to since that's all that's visible... It doesn't exactly say that it was stolen, but rather it was just taken from someone... or some thing...

Awk-waaard.

As for the topic, I'll just wait and see. ^^