[dev1081] BRD - are job improvements on the table???

[Tinuviel]

This thread is motivated because I feel SE has done very little to improve bard over the past 1-2 years. If you consider how other jobs have grown from lvl 75-99 and compare that with bard, its quite apalling.

SE's release of group 2 merit adjustments seems to worsen bard, if anything. I was quite happy with the 5min recast troubadours.

If SE wants to make actual improvments, I think they should be a little more creative than what they suggest in [dev1081]. I would propose making troubadour/nightingale JA that u get at lvl 76, and remove them from group 2 merits entirely. Instead, add new songs. All the new songs from 76-99, with exception of ballad3, are pretty underwhelming and highly situational. Give bard massacre elegy and a regain song in the group 2 merits... whatever, just add some new songs that are interesting!

Considering the DD potential COR has (particularly wildfire), I think its reasonable that BRD would be a better support role than COR is. At present, this is not the case. While stepping up BRD's debuff role is certainly a good aspect to job adjustment, I think its extremely weak as a stand-alone strategy

[detlef]

I was quite happy with the 5min recast troubadours.
Say what?

This is only an improvement. Soon you will very easily be able to just stick a merit each into Nightingale and Troubadour and call it a day.

[Reain]

Now

Nightingale 5/5:
song casting time-50%
song recast time -50%
10min recast

Troubadour 5/5:
song casting time+50%
song duration +100%
10min recast


After change

Nightingale 5/5:
song casting time-70%
song recast time -50%
10min recast

Troubadour 5/5
song casting time+50%
song duration +100%
song accuracy+100%
10min recast

Song accuracy+100% for 60 seconds seems incredible, I wonder how it will work and how the enhances troubadour effect on Bard's justaucorps +2 will affect it. It would be great if this allowed you to proc threnody on monsters that are immune. 1/5 will equal what we have currently with 5/5.

[Creelo]

Yeah, this is only a buff to Night/Troub, so I really wouldn't be complaining about that.

I would be complaining still about our lack of Massacre Elegy and Tier III March. Would seriously love a TP Regain song as well... >.<

[Zhronne]

Do we really need a third tier of March?
Anyway, atm I think I'll keep 5/5 on both Troub and Night.
Adventurer's Dirge doesn't stack beyond the -enm cap, so it sounds just as useful as Animus: Minuo.
Foe Sirvente is a different thing, it's a potentially useful song but with the current state the game is in, I don't see many situations where you'd use it.
Now if we still were back in the old days there would have been a bunch, but in the days of abyssea and voidwatch would you really use Foe Sirvente?

I guess we have to keep an eye on it for the future, if new content is added where such a song could be useful, I'll just go 5/5 on it, and spend the rest in Night and Troub.

[Retsujo]

I could see a third tier of March that can't be stacked with others and is as powerful as I and II together, yes.

[Creelo]

The reason why March III would be extremely beneficial to Bard is that it could potentially allow for Brd's without Gjallarhorn to cap magical Haste (along with Haste the spell of course) without the need for Marcato.

For Bard's with Gjallarhorn lvl 99, March III could potentially allow for magical Haste to be capped with just Marcato + March III, which would be an awesome buff for Gjallarhorn as it would free up another song slot for something else.

Basically, if you don't have Gjallarhorn, you'll still want March III. If you do have Gjallarhorn, you'll really want March III.

One of the reasons as to why March III is being brought up too is because it appeared to be in the dats (along with a bunch of other spells/JA animations) found at the end of October. Posted the link somewhere before in the Bard forums but cannot find... ugh. x.x

Here it is. Around the 30sec mark is where March III is presumed to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qv7MKFxlyM

Below are some numbers about Magical Haste and Marches that I just reposted for reference. Would like to spoiler it so it's not so huge, but not sure how. :/




Base March Values
Advancing March's = 64/1024
Victory = 96/1024

With March+4
(Current max for Brds, each March+1 gives 16/1024 Haste, so 64/1024 extra haste with March+4. All Bard's should have AF3+2 Hands for that extra March+1 considering how easy they are to get.)

Advancing+4 = 128/1024 = 12.5% Haste
Victory+4 = 160/1024 = 15.625% Haste

Haste the spell already gives 150/1024 = 14.65% Haste.

Magic Haste caps at 448/1024 = 43.75% Haste.

128+160+150 = 438/1024 = 42.78% Haste is the current cap to what we can get without Marcato or Gjallarhorn99's March+5. Basically, Brd's with Langeleik (March+4) are 1% away from capping Magical Haste. Bard's with just March+3 are about 4% away from the cap.

But since we have Marcato, Brd's that have been keeping up with their equipment should allow for capped Magic Haste roughly 60%~ of the time already. (3min12sec base, 6:24 with Troub, or 3min->6min if just March+3) Gjallarhorn isn't needed to cap magical Haste roughly 60% of the time. Even March+3x2 can cap Magical Haste with Marcato.

With March+5
Advancing+5 144/1024 = 14.06% Haste
Victory+5 176/1024 = 17.19% Haste
Together = 320/1024 = 31.25% Haste

So basically, with Haste (150/1024), March+5 x2 + Haste is overkill (470/1024 as opposed to 448/1024).

You may think you could potentially Marcato Victory March+5 to be able to drop a March, but that's still only 264/1024 = 25.78% Haste, thus you'll still need to sing Advancing March and have Haste to cap Magic Haste.

With Daurdabla, you could do Marchx2+Marcato'd Third Song with Gjallarhorn lvl99, while still capping Magic Haste without Marcato, but that's nothing to really go ape shit over lol, especially since the important stat (capping Magical Haste) can already be done now ~60% of the time.

If SE would've released that third tier of March... (We know it's there in the dats!!), and it would follow the same base values as Advancing/Victory, thus having a 128/1024 Haste base with capped skill, March+5 would allow for 208/1024 = 20.31% Haste, with Marcato roughly 30.47% Haste. This would allow for only a Marcato'd MarchIII+5 being needed to cap Magical Haste (along with Haste itself of course). This would probably require a high amount of skill gear needed to do this, which would make Gjallarhorn's skill and "All Songs+4" way more useful.

[Zhronne]

I could see a third tier of March that can't be stacked with others and is as powerful as I and II together, yes.
Uhm I'd rather not have all these exceptions and special things that work differently. I prefer consolidated things.
A third tier of a song that cannot be stacked with the previous tiers because it's too powerful sounds like a very bad design idea to me.



Here it is. Around the 30sec mark is where March III is presumed to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qv7MKFxlyM

So that was really the animation for March3? I always assumed it was Pining Nocturne's animation.
As for the rest I dunno what to say.

If I were to hope for something, I would hope for BRD to get more songs, especially more unique effects. COR got more and more and more and more special buffs, and they can also do very nice damage. All we can do is buff and we got nothing special, most of the times we're stuck recasting marches. /sigh
But we all know that's not going to happen, so from this light a new tier for an already existing song is definitely more likely.

Still, I remain unconvinced by march3. I mean I get your awesome post (tnx btw!) but you're making it look as if DDs *need* to be at the ~80% haste cap 24/7.
But do they really?
I'd say that it's too easy already to reach zerg-like setups/buffs in situations where it shouldn't normally be allowed to reach those conditions.
This makes us players too powerful, and to counterbalance that developers have a hard time creating challenging mobs, up to the point they're either too easy (99% of the time) or just retardedly broken/annoying/frustrating.

Full haste cap should be something we give in special situations (and we can already do that with soulvoice, maybe with Marcato too), should it really be something to demand from developers to give to us? Should it be something to aim for?
Not saying I have the answer, but I do ask myself these questions and honestly I'm not really sure if I really want a March3 yet, I'm still kinda torn.

On one hand I'd love other things, and I'd rather make so the game doesn't become even more broken than it already is. But on the other hand a third tier of march would open up new possibilities and, in the end, it's still better than getting the nothing we've been practically getting lately.
Meh =/ Hard to explain how I really feel about this.

[Flionheart]

I'd prefer unique songs (debuffs as well as buffs) over higher tiers of currently available songs. I would not be opposed to March III if it was as potent as MI and MII together, meaning you'd have a space for another beneficial song. The Daurdabla supports this already I guess.

[Reain]

From test server update today:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9871790/bardmerit.JPG

5/5 Nightingale is 100% instant cast on songs but, unlike quick-magic there is still a recast timer.

With 5/5 Troubadour elementals still resisted their element/element they are strong to as normal.

[detlef]

I've never liked insta-cast stuff in the past because it was random and you could easily be stuck casting in your precast set. But if it's 100%? Wow that's very nice.

As for Troub, I guess some things are just... immune. I wonder how it affects non-elemental mobs that have specific strengths... Maybe I'll give it a whirl tonight.

Also what? Spectacular fast cast? Unerring song accuracy? That's some flavor text right there.

[Reain]

Doesn't seem to change what a monster is susceptible to, just guarantees it lands if it can be landed I think. Still useful though.

Kinda interesting they buffed Nightingale and Troubadour and haven't touched Sirvente/Dirge.

[Zhronne]

Think I'm gonna go 1/5 on Night, don't want it to fuck up with my pre-cast/post-cast sets.
5/5 Troub sounds good.
Now what to get with 4 merits?
Dirge sounds laughable.
Sirvente COULD be useful, if only this game still had a large quantity of situations where you want a PLD to tank and DDs to hold up hate/damage.

Dunno what to do, but whatever I'll choose I really want to avoid going above 1/5 Night for the above mentioned reasons.


Edit:
Forgot to mention, the Troub accuracy will probably do close to nothing in the current situation we're in. A good bard has a lot of CHR/Macc/Skill gear nowadays, you can hardly find stuff that still regularly resist a couple of casts, and for Voidwatch you have Ascetic's Tonic. Usually either mobs are immune to an element, or you stick a song within a couple of tries.
But with the incoming reform to debuffs, I assume they will affect songs as well, which should allow us to land Requiem on stuff, and also debuff things we couldn't previously debuff.
Mobs can still resist though, or so SE said.
In such a scenario, I figure bigger accuracy from Troub (and in general from gear etc) will be more desirable than it is nowadays.

[Creelo]

Elementals are flat out immune to their associated elemental debuffs, right? Am not sure, but I feel like they would be.

I feel like as long as the mob isn't immune, Troubadour 5/5 will probably allow debuffs like Finale/Dark Thren to land on mobs like Pixies, where they're aren't flat out immune, but have high resistance.

At least, that's what I'm hoping lol, if not, then it's fairly useless :/

[Ophannus]

There are rules you can make to allow different pre-cast and post-cast variables when the JA is up such that certain gear is locked in such as singing/wind/string until the JA wears off or is cancelled.