[dev1080] Thief - Assassin's Charge/feint proposed Adjustments

[Karbuncle]

For those who didn't read

Assassin's Charge Merits are giving a 25% Bonus to Accuracy with Each Merit (Total of +100% Acc)

Feint Is giving ~25% higher Chance to upgrade TH (total of +100% Chance)

That said, Lets discuss!:

---------------
Assassin's Charge Change?
Useless!. Sorry if that comes off harsh :). Assassin's Charge is 99% of the time stacked with Sneak Attack, or Trick Attack, to provide best results. Accuracy bonus would be 100% Worthless (Since, SA/TA Guarantees all hits are successful on the first round of Main hand/Offhand Swings) . Could we please re-evaluate this? Perhaps:

"Increases Triple Attack Damage From Assassin's Charge by 5% Per Merit, Total 20%". (Would be a weaker version of Overwhelm, Still limited by Direction (SA) or Restricted by Person (TA))
**Alternatively, If thats too powerful, 2.5% Per Merit, Total 10%.
**Alternatively, If that too is too powerful, a simple "increases Attack by 25%" Would be more beneficial. Accuracy is just... Useless for it is what i'm getting at :X

Please Consider it ^^;

-------
Feint's Change?
I don't want to talk about it. Treasure Hunter is a touchy Subject for THF, Suffice to say, I'm going with 5/5 Feint merits, 1/5 Assassin's Charge, 4/5 Aura Steal.

Only reason i'm staying with 5/5 Feint is because Ambush is still Garbage due to its directional restrictions.

Your Opinions, Views? I know some Thieves out there want to talk about it.

How will this effect your current merit set up?

[Vold]

Looks like I'll be redoing feint. I never did do the zerg thing to put it to use so I switched it for aura steal... now it's going to be useful, I guess. I am a treasure hunter at heart so I'm always game for more TH.

I suppose I'll do 5/5 feint, 1/5 AC and 4/5 aura steal. It just makes the most sense even though aura is about as useful as ambush for me.

[Babekeke]

I'm currently 5/5 feint, 5/5 aura steal.

Where you say assassin's charge update is useless, I disagree. It's brilliant that the merits 2-5 are useless, because it means that it requires only 1 merit without gimping ourselves XD

I was sort of torn between which to drop a merit for to obtain AC though. I <3 a 100% dispel for the few mobs that use something worth stealing (def boost/eva boost/att boost... even shell if solo vs casting mobs) but.... a 100% chance to increase TH every 2 minutes? I'd be stupid to pass that up I think. TH on long fights should always be well into the double-figures now, and I might even see some of these mythic TH15s that I've heard about.

So yeah, 5/5 Feint, 4/5 Aura Steal, 1/5 Assassin's Charge. Same as every other thief on this game I imagine.

[Karbuncle]

Where you say assassin's charge update is useless, I disagree. It's brilliant that the merits 2-5 are useless, because it means that it requires only 1 merit without gimping ourselves XD

I love our optimism, Thats actually a good point ^^

Edit: Also, Its not 100% Chance to upgrade TH, Its "+100%" Chance. Meaning, If your upgrade rate is 5%, with Feint, It will be 10%.

it just doubles the current TH upgrade rate from how i read it.

[Motenten]

I love our optimism, Thats actually a good point ^^

Edit: Also, Its not 100% Chance to upgrade TH, Its "+100%" Chance. Meaning, If your upgrade rate is 5%, with Feint, It will be 10%.

it just doubles the current TH upgrade rate from how i read it.

That doesn't really make sense. From a few minor parses I have, the chance of TH leveling up from just normal melee hits is about 1%. Since Feint generally isn't stacked with SA/TA, that would be the baseline figure you'd most likely to apply it to, and saying it has a fractional chance (1.25%, 1.5%, 1.75%) of leveling up with 2/3/4 merits just sounds silly (most percentages in the game only work in whole unit increments, so you could either have 1% or 2%, but not 1.5%).

In addition, while there's already been a typo or two in the translations, it doesn't say anything about "+100%", it just says "by 25% per point". Fun with interpreting percentages, I guess.

[Karbuncle]

Feint lasts about 45 seconds, If it was 100% Chance to upgrade TH for 45 seconds, You could hit TH80 in that time frame with just a single THF <_>

I guess it could technically be "100%" with just feint on (I.E upgrades when Feint Lands)... But still, on a 3 minute timer, With multiple Thieves, You could drive TH up to insane amounts in a short period of time.

[Motenten]

Feint lasts about 45 seconds, If it was 100% Chance to upgrade TH for 45 seconds, You could hit TH80 in that time frame with just a single THF <_>

I guess it could technically be "100%" with just feint on (I.E upgrades when Feint Lands)... But still, on a 3 minute timer, With multiple Thieves, You could drive TH up to insane amounts in a short period of time.

Ah, you were interpreting it to mean an increased chance for TH to level up while a mob has Feint applied to it? I was expecting it to be the chance for TH to level up on the hit that applied Feint (sort of like the increased chance to level up TH on the hit that gets the SA or TA bonus).

And yes, on a two minute timer, it has the potential to be taken really high with multiple thfs. A single thf would have 4 SATA chances plus one (potentially) guaranteed Feint chance, plus normal hits, every 2 minutes. A 10 minute fight would give... 100% * 5 Feint = 5, 5% * 20 SATA = 1, and say 1% * 200 normal = 2, total of +8 TH on top of 6 or 7 base, potentially TH 15. Well, there's probably a cap on it somewhere so multiple thfs can't skyrocket the value.

[FrankReynolds]

I read it as a 100% chance to proc every 2 minutes, but SE is an evil genie. They will probably come squash that hope.

I was really hoping that they would boost the actual effects of treasure hunter, instead of just making the silly number go higher. Treasure hunter level 1,000,006 still doesn't mean crap if the drop rate is only increased by .00001% for every 100 levels.

I've always had feint capped because it comes in handy for things that have high eva, merit parties where half the DDs don't have capped skills, low man stuff where I am trying to land steps, and the fact that I almost never have a need for aura steal.

[Nerathun]

Your Opinions, Views?We got screwed again...

Unique abilities that bring THF into big fight ? And I insist on the unique trait. Right now we are simply looking at ours giving away to others.

Define a role where THF can be usefull again would be nice.

- Damage : Other DDs are better for that since the very beginning.
- Tank : Other jobs have real tool for that. We don't.
- Hate management : Say hello to DRG
- Drop rate increase : TH will be something common soon and well TH2 vs THx who cares...

Leaves out, why playing THF now ? Why like a job that is screwed so often ? I'm already masochist for playing this game for so long and I won't /ragequit for that but still. I hate this kind of [Dev Track] :mad:

[Jile]

I'd love it if the Dev's would Fix TH so it works better (or at least a notable difference in drop
rate with stacked TH effect so there's a point to stacking TH) rather than gimp other jobs as
a "fix" to TH being broken or adding gimmicks to increase stacked TH.

As it stands, I don't believe there is a notable difference between drops from TH7 and
(exaggerating a little) TH100 and SE should address this issue before making changes
that allow easier/quicker TH effect when at the moment stacked TH doesn't appear to
impact drops.

The only thing that makes sense is "if" TH (effect) is working as intended, SE must have
also changed mob's treasure pooling so higher TH made much less of a difference than
it used to. Going back a few years a relic hand THF vs a non relic THF had a substantial,
real, noticeable difference in overall drops vs someone without.

[Geabrielle]

I was sort of hoping that the evasion down percentage would have been boosted per merit upgrade. I'm not too excited about the TH increase because it doesn't change anything about the niche THF has been crushed into for ages.

I'm actually 5/5 Feint, 5/5 Assassin's Charge ... I had Aura Steal for awhile but I found it to be useless to my particular usage. :/ I suppose I'm the Stepchild THF of the community.

[Cream_Soda]

Not useless at all, really. You now get max recast with 1 merit instead of 5 and can allocate merits elsewhere.

[Geabrielle]

Not useless at all, really. You now get max recast with 1 merit instead of 5 and can allocate merits elsewhere.

No, no. I mean I never get asked to be THF for anything where stealing a mob's buff is useful and I don't need it for myself because I take abusive advantage of my Adventure Fellow for buffs and what not when I am committing personal shenanigans.

[Cream_Soda]

My post was directed at the OP, sorry I didn't clarify

[Karbuncle]

My post was directed at the OP, sorry I didn't clarify

For Assassin's Charge?

Yah i addressed that in like, the fourth post :P

[Cream_Soda]

I'm lazy lol, I just read the first post and responded to that!

[Babekeke]

As it stands, I don't believe there is a notable difference between drops from TH7 and
(exaggerating a little) TH100 and SE should address this issue before making changes
that allow easier/quicker TH effect when at the moment stacked TH doesn't appear to
impact drops.

Mocchi already did a test... TH9 vs TH10 to see if it was working correctly. The result was that they got more drops with TH10 than TH9, so it's working as intended. Unfortunately they didn't show us their results, so it could well have been 1000 mobs killed, 500 items with TH9, 501 items with TH10. TH working as it should >.>

On the other hand it could have been 500/550, we just can't be sure.

[Jile]

Mocchi already did a test... TH9 vs TH10 to see if it was working correctly. The result was that they got more drops with TH10 than TH9, so it's working as intended. Unfortunately they didn't show us their results, so it could well have been 1000 mobs killed, 500 items with TH9, 501 items with TH10. TH working as it should >.>

On the other hand it could have been 500/550, we just can't be sure.

Well, I guess I stand corrected if that's the case ~ Thanks for the info.

I guess I'll have to do some more detailed testing of my own as well. Drops seem much worse since the TH-effect was added but perhaps that's just my experience with it.

[FrankReynolds]

Mocchi already did a test... TH9 vs TH10 to see if it was working correctly. The result was that they got more drops with TH10 than TH9, so it's working as intended. Unfortunately they didn't show us their results, so it could well have been 1000 mobs killed, 500 items with TH9, 501 items with TH10. TH working as it should >.>

On the other hand it could have been 500/550, we just can't be sure.


Other people have done testing with larger samples. It's not that much.

How much of an increase would 9 -> 10 have to provide to make it worth the extra time it takes to proc (if you can get it to proc)? I'm guessing that with almost anything that is not a timed or lottery spawn, spending more that a minute or two trying to upgrade (beyond the time it would normally take to kill) is not actually helping.

[Ziero]

Personally, I still feel both changes are...kinda useless. As a Thf I've always hated that SE felt our job's only purpose was to enhance drops so the change to Feint is not one I'm looking forward to. And with Ass. Charge, when you get the Augmented +2 Relic feet, you get +5 Crit Hit rate in addition to the +3 TAtt, +TAtt Damage if you fully merit Assassin's Charge, so you'd still want to fully merit it anyway.

I mean, instead of going 5/5 Feint, 4/5 Aura Steal, 1/5 Ass. Charge I guess I can go 5/5 Ass. Charge, 4/5 Aura Steal and 1/5 Feint. In the end however, it doesn't really change anything. It's not like these changes open us up to having more merit options, it still comes down to juggling merits between the same three categories.

In light of seeing other jobs get lesser used JAs have their recasts dropped or their durations changed, I was kind of hoping Steal/Despoil/Mug would see some adjustments. Personally, I feel the act of actively taking something away from the mob is more in line of what a "Thief" should be as opposed to just being a job that makes things drop more frequently. Instead all Thfs get is the joy of having to rearrange merits. It doesn't really make the job better at anything and instead just reinforces our role as "Treasure Whore", something I'm not too fond of.

[Arcon]

Ah, you were interpreting it to mean an increased chance for TH to level up while a mob has Feint applied to it? I was expecting it to be the chance for TH to level up on the hit that applied Feint (sort of like the increased chance to level up TH on the hit that gets the SA or TA bonus).

This is how I understood it as well, and it was why I wanted to go from 0/5 to 5/5 next update. However, now you have me wondering.

Right now I'm 5/5 AC and 5/5 AS, depending on how they go about it, I may do 5/5 Feint, 5/5 AS next update. If, however, the TH upgrade thing turns out to be disappointing (who are we kidding, it's THF we're talking about), I think I'll actually remain 0/5 Feint, just because I can't be bothered.

[Babekeke]

Other people have done testing with larger samples. It's not that much.

How much of an increase would 9 -> 10 have to provide to make it worth the extra time it takes to proc (if you can get it to proc)? I'm guessing that with almost anything that is not a timed or lottery spawn, spending more that a minute or two trying to upgrade (beyond the time it would normally take to kill) is not actually helping.

Whatever it would have to be, it isn't now. I rarely see above TH10 right now, even in abyssea where I have TH8 to start with, because kill speed still gets you more drops than raising TH. Unless it's perhaps a mob like Eccentric Eve where you spent forever farming all the KIs.

[Karbuncle]

god save you if you're implying you use Atma of Dread then go on to discuss Killspeed > TH! That's tremendous backpedaling lol. Bad Babekeke, Bad

That aside, In regards to a fellow posting about "Crit Hit Rate+5% with Ass. Charge" ---- This seems ultimately useless anywhere but Abyssea really, Cause Evisceration is pretty obsolete due to Exenterator, outside, of course. And Critical hit Rate does nothing for a 100% Crit (SA/TA - Again, With most AC being paired with SA/TA...) it makes it useless.

I guess the JP fire off Assassin's Charge regularly or something, has to be reason why SE would think these additions would be good.

The only useful to come out of these Merit adjustments is that I can Move 4 merits our of Asn Charge and still get 5 min recast :D (as pointed out earlier)

[Arcon]

god save you if you're implying you use Atma of Dread then go on to discuss Killspeed > TH! That's tremendous backpedaling lol. Bad Babekeke, Bad

Don't think that's what he suggested. I think he just meant getting full TH on certain NMs is worth it, when killspeed doesn't matter (for big NM fights).


I guess the JP fire off Assassin's Charge regularly or something, has to be reason why SE would think these additions would be good.

Actually, I've heard someone on the WAR forums argue that Warrior's Charge (forced Double Attack) is best use in the TP phase for faster TP gain. Now, that dude was obviously mentally challenged, but maybe others employ a similar reasoning?

[Karbuncle]

On WAR at least it has some slight foundation, Double Attack on a TP Phase would give a good WAR about 40TP. On THF, You'd get about 10 more TP.. Not worth it.

I'd kill anyone who thought that way :(

[Saiken253]

I'm happy with the THF update. def going what most are going to go with 5/5 feint, 4/5 aura, and 1/5 charge.

Also, it's not explicitly talked about, but the TH cap was 15, but with the introduction to the af2+2 hands the cap has been risen to TH18. I can't find nor remember where I found this, but there is a hard cap on TH and it's affected by TH gear. So even if it's 100% for each first attack in a round, it would still stop at 18. If it is still as you said earlier Karbuncle, I still approve(effectively doubling the chance to upgrade with 5/5 feint) makes attaining the cap twice as easy :D.

[Arcon]

Also, it's not explicitly talked about, but the TH cap was 15, but with the introduction to the af2+2 hands the cap has been risen to TH18. I can't find nor remember where I found this, but there is a hard cap on TH and it's affected by TH gear.

First time hearing about it and I don't believe it. I can't possibly imagine how anyone could have found the cap, even if it existed.

[Saiken253]

well, we might be able to confirm this soon ^^

[Arcon]

well, we might be able to confirm this soon ^^

How exactly? Because I have absolutely no idea. Not unless we get 16 base TH.

[Babekeke]

god save you if you're implying you use Atma of Dread then go on to discuss Killspeed > TH! That's tremendous backpedaling lol. Bad Babekeke, Bad

I agree, I was aware of this as soon as I hit 'post', but hoped noone would notice. What I actually meant is that guaranteed TH > messing around hoping for those chances of raising. Our group usually has ~12 people and we spam empy weapon mobs. No matter which atmas I use, I'm not going to make the kills all that much quicker by using GH or Sanguine Scythe, or which ever other combo people prefer with apoc and rr. Especially since I'm main-handing a Thokcha and stuff dies so fast I don't bother to switch out THF knife (I'd forget to re-equip it!).

[Arcon]

[..] stuff dies so fast I don't bother to switch out THF knife (I'd forget to re-equip it!).

I think that was Karby's point. Using a DD dagger combination fulltime would give you better results than to change it, even if you did remember. Although it's true that in larger groups the difference becomes lower, but I don't assume you're all 12 hitting on Dhalmels trying to get triggers? For any kind of low level trash mob it's a lot faster to just kill with a proper dagger combination than trying to maximize TH on each mob.

[Babekeke]

I think that was Karby's point. Using a DD dagger combination fulltime would give you better results than to change it, even if you did remember. Although it's true that in larger groups the difference becomes lower, but I don't assume you're all 12 hitting on Dhalmels trying to get triggers? For any kind of low level trash mob it's a lot faster to just kill with a proper dagger combination than trying to maximize TH on each mob.

On trash I rarely solo anything, I just tag every mob that the others are killing. 2 mobs per person all tagged tends to be all the pops we need.

[Mindi]

Assassin's Charge:
While the change to min recast is really nice, the Buff the Dev's want to do to AC is totally pointless. Noone, and really NOONE needs ACC to this Ability. It is like almost allways used with SA and/or TA and wont need ACC there. And even when someone would use it outside of a WS (whyever he does... hit wrong macro?!) he wont need ACC aswell, if he does.. he need to skillup dagger :)
So my Suggestion would be to add another enhancement to it when you invest additional Merits into this.. good would be something like a Attack bonus, Trippleattackdmg+.. hell even Subtleblow would be more usefull then ACC lol

Feint:
Well dont have much to say about this, i dont mind it too much, but it doesnt change much either. i probably keep 4/5 or 5/5 in it just for the placebo-TH+
An enhance to what it currenty does would be better, and not enhance TH Proc chance. It would be Nice if Faint would be what it is now at 1 Merit, and when you spend additional Merits into it the crit hit evasion of the mob will be also lowered by some % (like the feather step DNC does)

and beside those 2 Merit change announces i really wish the Dev's would look into Ambush aswell.

Ambush:
This Ability is currently totaly useless. Like i said at AC.. ACC shouldnt be an issue. I really hope this Meritability will change aswell.
My suggested change to Ambush: When attacking a mob from behind the THF gets enhanced crit hitrate and crithitdmg, each merit in it further enhance the crithitrate and crithit dmg. I think this would be a really nice change to ambush, it still would require the THF to hit from behind, so it wouldn't be so powerfull and your fav BALANCE would still be there. (In addition to this, when Bully effect is on the mob it should work from any direction, like SA^^) Either keep it auto-ability with lesser effect, or make it a usable ability like NIN have Innin and make it a stronger effect

[Nynja]

Ambush:
(In addition to this, when Bully effect is on the mob it should work from any direction, like SA^^) Either keep it auto-ability with lesser effect, or make it a usable ability like NIN have Innin and make it a stronger effect

Has anyone ever tested if there was a spaghetti code mishap in regards to Bully and Ambush? When bully is active on a mob, ambush takes effect?

[Arcon]

Has anyone ever tested if there was a spaghetti code mishap in regards to Bully and Ambush? When bully is active on a mob, ambush takes effect?

Would be fun to figure out, sounds certainly plausible. That would require someone to merit Ambush, though.

[Nynja]

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/imgs/mpj12.jpg

bottom row = ambush...theres SOME people out there with 5/5 ambush, just gotta find em

[Karbuncle]

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/imgs/mpj12.jpg

bottom row = ambush...theres SOME people out there with 5/5 ambush, just gotta find em

And slap them senseless for being idiots.

On a more serious note. If they made Ambush work like SA, when Bully is active, its benefits come from anywhere? it'd still be useless because its what... 15 accuracy? (I think 5% Triple Attack too with the +2 relic body, But the +2 Relic Body has no haste value.. 5% Haste vs 5% Triple attack...? Not worth the 5 merits)

[Nynja]

I'm not asking on a serious note...like I said, spaghetti code, so the lulz.

[Karbuncle]

Well Derp Nynja, I know that.

[Babekeke]

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/imgs/mpj12.jpg

bottom row = ambush...theres SOME people out there with 5/5 ambush, just gotta find em

These people don't actually play THF. They leeched it to 99 wearing pink, and wanted to merit it for completion. They probably didn't even read what they were meriting.

I hope!

[Kysaiana]

For some reason I though these changes were live as of the Feb. 14 update but they're not even on the test server yet. What I get for skimming over the job changes. Anyway, I'll definitely be lowering Assassin's Charge to 1/5 when this happens, since I was able to land all 3 hits pretty consistently even with flash on last night... As far as feint goes, I guess I'll have to see the TH rate on it and either leave it at 4/5 or up it to 5/5.

[Delvish]

Just for arguements sake, I will use Assassin's Charge in TP mode when I'm /dnc in an oshi-I-need-tp moment. It isn't much, but usually will at least push me within an attack phase of Waltz.

As for the updates themselves, I think the TH bonus to Feint is rather awesome. Means we can alternate Feint and Bully (more or less) and really see some TH progression. That being said, it still all depends on the TH cap and over-all usefulness. From the looks of it, VW and Legion are the endgame events of 99, so THWhore will still not have a use beyond Aby-farm, old school events, and Nyzul uncharted.

Long story short. Assassin's Charge 1/5, Aura Steal 4/5, Feint 5/5, then hang up the bonnet for my other jobs.

[Babekeke]

Just for arguements sake, I will use Assassin's Charge in TP mode when I'm /dnc in an oshi-I-need-tp moment. It isn't much, but usually will at least push me within an attack phase of Waltz.

Are you missing a lot of Triple Attack gear? With merits you're at 11%. Raider's Bonnet +2 3%, Epona's Ring 3%, Triplus Dagger 3%. This is where I am right now with TA, 20% that's 1 every 5 swings (on average) outside of abyssea. With Raider's Earring and Assassin's Pouliaines on my wishlist I'll be at 24% which is almost once every 4 swings. On top of that, there is 2% double Attack on Atheling, 2% on Twilight belt, 3% on Epona's, which equates to 6.4% (at 20% TA - 6.04% at 24%) after the triple attack has missed it's chance to proc for a total of 26% chance of a multi-hit with my gear, and 30% chance if you have the other 2 pieces.

Given the 2 second delay upon using a JA, you'd get more TP from letting yourself auto-attack than you would from hitting AC unless you are hitting it while you are not engaged, to build that initial TP.

TBH if you're fighting something that you really need the extra TP on, you're probably riding the waltz timer anyway, so you might as well just save AC for your WS and get it killed faster.

[Laphine]

why use raider's earring? Brutal is better for any achievable TA rate. Also, the super TA rate that would be necessary for raiders to win will also make it a lousy increase to dps, and i bet a simple attack earring would beat it then.

[Kysaiana]

Atheling mantel actually has 3% double attack rate, and I wouldn't use raider's over brutal earring. The only time I use AC on a melee swing is if I'm /dnc and low on HP and want to be sure I get a triple attack so I can heal myself.

[Karbuncle]

Don't forget Twilight Belt's 2%, and if you're a good Thief these days you'll be /WAR anyway to most events (bar maybe Dynamis).

So right off the bat with Atheling + Twilight /WAR you got 15% Double Attack. 20% With brutal. I stopped using Triplus Dagger when i got my Flame-knife. So my Triple Attack rate is 20% (Head, Ring, Feet, Natural+merits)

So with a Brutal You're looking at 20 / 20
With Raiders its 15 / 21

Think Brutal Wins.

[Babekeke]

Like I said in the other thread, I got the earring for BLM, so I don't have Suppa. I use brutal/Aesis now, but will swap to raiders/brutal. I did the maths for 3% DA on Atheling, not 2%, just typo'd 2% there, and I always forget about the 5% on brutal for some reason.
With Epona's 3% as well and /war it's 23% DA. Stacked with 24% TA it's a 41% chance to multi-attack, even outside of abyssea.

[Khajit]

Personally, I still feel both changes are...kinda useless. As a Thf I've always hated that SE felt our job's only purpose was to enhance drops so the change to Feint is not one I'm looking forward to. And with Ass. Charge, when you get the Augmented +2 Relic feet, you get +5 Crit Hit rate in addition to the +3 TAtt, +TAtt Damage if you fully merit Assassin's Charge, so you'd still want to fully merit it anyway.

I mean, instead of going 5/5 Feint, 4/5 Aura Steal, 1/5 Ass. Charge I guess I can go 5/5 Ass. Charge, 4/5 Aura Steal and 1/5 Feint. In the end however, it doesn't really change anything. It's not like these changes open us up to having more merit options, it still comes down to juggling merits between the same three categories.

In light of seeing other jobs get lesser used JAs have their recasts dropped or their durations changed, I was kind of hoping Steal/Despoil/Mug would see some adjustments. Personally, I feel the act of actively taking something away from the mob is more in line of what a "Thief" should be as opposed to just being a job that makes things drop more frequently. Instead all Thfs get is the joy of having to rearrange merits. It doesn't really make the job better at anything and instead just reinforces our role as "Treasure Whore", something I'm not too fond of.

Evisceration isnt a ws we stack with SA/TA anymore because exenterator is better and the other ws like rudra/mercy dont crit either so the 5% crit bonus is effectively useless if you were under the impression it actually does something


Just for arguements sake, I will use Assassin's Charge in TP mode when I'm /dnc in an oshi-I-need-tp moment. It isn't much, but usually will at least push me within an attack phase of Waltz.


using A charge for tpgain actually lowers the tp obtained thanks to jadelay so dont do that.

[Aana]

FYI you guys are all behind the times. We assumed for years that SATA+WS worked like solo SATA for acc.

It doesnt.

When SA/TA(with assassin) all hits have 100% acc. Offhand]/Singles/Doubles/Triples/Quads. All 100% acc.

When SA/TA+WS is used, there is no such acc bonus beyond the FIRST hit. The offhand hit and any DA/TA/QA do NOT have guranteed acc. We often stack dex out the wazoo, so acc isnt much of a problem, but if you are diligent watching your TP returns you will see that it isnt the case. This has been a misconception for years because we all just assumed it worked like a melee SA/TA. It doesnt.

The acc bonus isnt 100% useless because we have been 100% wrong on our assumption on acc with SATA+WS and its still (obviously) a commonly held belief.

[Karbuncle]

FYI you guys are all behind the times. We assumed for years that SATA+WS worked like solo SATA for acc.

It doesnt.

When SA/TA(with assassin) all hits have 100% acc. Offhand/Singles/Doubles/Triples/Quads. All 100% acc.

When SA/TA+WS is used, there is no such acc bonus beyond the FIRST hit. The offhand hit and any DA/TA/QA do NOT have guranteed acc. We often stack dex out the wazoo, so acc isnt much of a problem, but if you are diligent watching your TP returns you will see that it isnt the case. This has been a misconception for years because we all just assumed it worked like a melee SA/TA. It doesnt.

The acc bonus isnt 100% useless because we have been 100% wrong on our assumption on acc with SATA+WS and its still (obviously) a commonly held belief.

Not saying i don't believe you....

But can you provide me with these tests and proof please :)? With all these new revelations I'm starting to learn to not take things at face value.

[Babekeke]

FYI you guys are all behind the times. We assumed for years that SATA+WS worked like solo SATA for acc.

It doesnt.

When SA/TA(with assassin) all hits have 100% acc. Offhand/Singles/Doubles/Triples/Quads. All 100% acc.

When SA/TA+WS is used, there is no such acc bonus beyond the FIRST hit. The offhand hit and any DA/TA/QA do NOT have guranteed acc. We often stack dex out the wazoo, so acc isnt much of a problem, but if you are diligent watching your TP returns you will see that it isnt the case. This has been a misconception for years because we all just assumed it worked like a melee SA/TA. It doesnt.

The acc bonus isnt 100% useless because we have been 100% wrong on our assumption on acc with SATA+WS and its still (obviously) a commonly held belief.

All additional hits caused by a multi-hit weaponskill aren't 100% acc. We've known this for years. It's always been a good idea to stick acc gear on, because a 5-hit ws with an off-hand swing and triple attack (unstacked) is Asuran Fists territory which has something like (off the top of my head) 8% chance to land all 8 hits even with capped acc. Even stacked, DE and Evis have 4 hits that aren't guaranteed.

However, if anyone can show me a screenshot of a bully > sneak attack > ws that returned less than 9%tp (for main and off-hand only) with proof that you were dual-wielding, don't have plague on and didn't kill the mob before all hits went off... oh wait that's practically impossible.

I rarely see less than 14tp returns, and I'm happy with that. Not forgetting that ADL is probably the only mob high enough to worry about acc on that a THF might fight. (WoE and VW = {Job Change}) And there's always Sushi.

[Arcon]

However, if anyone can show me a screenshot of a bully > sneak attack > ws that returned less than 9%tp (for main and off-hand only) with proof that you were dual-wielding, don't have plague on and didn't kill the mob before all hits went off... oh wait that's practically impossible.

Single hit TP return (9.2%) (http://95.156.209.71/pub/ffxi/pics/testing/Staff%20single%20hit%20TP%20return.png)

Full SA+AC+WS TP return (11.2%) (http://95.156.209.71/pub/ffxi/pics/testing/Staff%20SAACWS%20TP%20return%20full.png)

Not full SA+AC+WS TP return (10.2%) (http://95.156.209.71/pub/ffxi/pics/testing/Staff%20SAACWS%20TP%20return%20low.png)

Conclusion:
100% Triple Attack accuracy with SA+AC doesn't apply to WS.

Test info:
My hit rate was floored (Vicissitude, Mounted Champion, Voracious Violet, only HP cruor buff, no DEX+ or Acc/Skill+ gear) and it took me a while to get 11% TP on WS, just to show the max TP return was indeed 11% with all three hits connecting. The gear was the exact same in all scenarios with no Store TP. I was on THF/WAR to get access to Heavy Swing.

Edit: The 11% was attained without VV Atma, as you can see on the screenshot. My hit rate was so low that building TP took me ages, so I switched after that. The 10% TP screenshot couldn't have happened if the Regain tick kicked in, so obviously it was attained through a 2/3 hit connect on WS.

[Karbuncle]

Single hit TP return (9.2%) (http://95.156.209.71/pub/ffxi/pics/testing/Staff%20single%20hit%20TP%20return.png)

Full SA+AC+WS TP return (11.2%) (http://95.156.209.71/pub/ffxi/pics/testing/Staff%20SAACWS%20TP%20return%20full.png)

Not full SA+AC+WS TP return (10.2%) (http://95.156.209.71/pub/ffxi/pics/testing/Staff%20SAACWS%20TP%20return%20low.png)

Conclusion:
100% Triple Attack accuracy with SA+AC doesn't apply to WS.

Test info:
My hit rate was floored (Vicissitude, Mounted Champion, Voracious Violet, only HP cruor buff, no DEX+ or Acc/Skill+ gear) and it took me a while to get 11% TP on WS, just to show the max TP return was indeed 11% with all three hits connecting. The gear was the exact same in all scenarios with no Store TP. I was on THF/WAR to get access to Heavy Swing.

Edit: The 11% was attained without VV Atma, as you can see on the screenshot. My hit rate was so low that building TP took me ages, so I switched after that. The 10% TP screenshot couldn't have happened if the Regain tick kicked in, so obviously it was attained through a 2/3 hit connect on WS.

Going to go test this myself using an easier method, Called a Blind Potion. Cause i fail to believe this... It turns my whole world upside down

[Arcon]

Going to go test this myself using an easier method, Called a Blind Potion. Cause i fail to believe this... It turns my whole world upside down

I didn't know Blinding Potions were that potent, I only now looked it up myself. Wouldn't have made it much easier though, although you could /NIN to make sure you don't get hit after WS. Single wielding and doing Mandalic Stab should be just as efficient though. I chose dolls because they're usually EM or T because of the people EXPing there, and Aby offers other things as well (like insane HP pool and Atma).

[Karbuncle]

I didn't know Blinding Potions were that potent, I only now looked it up myself. Wouldn't have made it much easier though, although you could /NIN to make sure you don't get hit after WS. Single wielding and doing Mandalic Stab should be just as efficient though. I chose dolls because they're usually EM or T because of the people EXPing there, and Aby offers other things as well (like insane HP pool and Atma).

Well my Initial Tests show...

TP/hit - 11
SA WS - 11
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS + Blind potion - 12
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13

... I don't know, Theres something else at work here. The chance of me landing 2, Let alone 3 Hits of a SA/AC if the second/third hit weren't heavily acc buffed is so improbable... That I'd have a higher chance of winning the Bonanza than landing 3 hits in a row with Floored Accuracy.

Let alone twice. Its really quite baffling. The absolute improbability of it... There has to be something more to this...

[Arcon]

Well my Initial Tests show...

TP/hit - 11
SA WS - 11
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS - 13
SA AC WS + Blind potion - 12
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13
SA AC WS + Blind Potion - 13

... I don't know, Theres something else at work here. The chance of me landing 2, Let alone 3 Hits of a SA/AC if the second/third hit weren't heavily acc buffed is so improbable... That I'd have a higher chance of winning the Bonanza than landing 3 hits in a row with Floored Accuracy.

Let alone twice. Its really quite baffling. The absolute improbability of it... There has to be something more to this...

Maybe your accuracy was not as low as you think it was? Is Blinding Potion really -256? What was your hit rate, and what level was the mob?

Also, it's quite possible that WS get an innate accuracy bonus for all hits regardless. Me, for one, I had a very hard time getting that 11% TP return, only managed that once.

[Arcon]

Having done quite a few more tests I've noticed something interesting ish. I got 10% TP almost every time, with a few 11% TP exceptions. I've never seen 9% TP return. I guess the old "only first two hits" rule applies to this as well. Perfect accuracy on the first two hits, and regular accuracy on the third hit.

Regardless, the verdict stands, additional merits for this are almost entirely wasted.

[Aana]

Finally found the original thread that tested this back in 2010 (http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=245&mid=1263428185314042375).

I miss spoke in my other post. Offhand does land, but anything besides main+offhand has no ac boost. Screenshots and everything. Screenshot of a 9TP return, SA+AC Sharkbite when the TP return for 2 hits is only 9. Its pretty undisputable. Missed both triple attack hits AND the 'second' sharkbite hit. Whole thing but main and off completely whiffed.

Credit to Melphina for this test.

[Karbuncle]

Having done quite a few more tests I've noticed something interesting ish. I got 10% TP almost every time, with a few 11% TP exceptions. I've never seen 9% TP return. I guess the old "only first two hits" rule applies to this as well. Perfect accuracy on the first two hits, and regular accuracy on the third hit.

Regardless, the verdict stands, additional merits for this are almost entirely wasted.

Yah, Seems to be a "First two hits" Situation.

My accuracy was most certainly floored btw >_>

[Aana]

/points up. Only the main/offhand that give full hit TP (4.X generally) are 100%. Everything else can miss.

I wouldnt say extra merits are fully wasted. All the options are meh. What are you going to do instead? Ambush? lolTH feint? None of the 'additional effects' are OMGBBQ GOTA HAZ!

I will add though, mercy stroke thfs should strongly consider AC merits because unlike the rest of us that stack 90+ dex on all our WS for loads of acc on WS anyway, a mandau thf using str based mercy builds doesnt have all that free acc. Acc on an AC is most welcome in a build like that on a WS that strong.

[Arcon]

/points up. Only the main/offhand that give full hit TP (4.X generally) are 100%. Everything else can miss.

/points up. That makes no sense. Explain my minimum of 10% TP return please.

I have a theory that would explain both Melphina's and my results, but I need some further testing to make sure. I'll try to finish it after work today.

[Aana]

I was pointing to the link in my post that clearly shows a 9tp return. You only need 1 incidence that all hits can miss to prove all hits can miss. The question was "do additional hits have guaranteed acc like melee SATA?" The screenshot of 9tp proves the answer is no.

What more complex theory do you need when it clearly shows they all missed, and it was also sharkbite which meant that the triple (2hits) and the 'second' hit of SB missed. It doesnt get much clearer than that.

What else is there to explain that needs some further analysis?

[Arcon]

I was pointing to the link in my post that clearly shows a 9tp return. You only need 1 incidence that all hits can miss to prove all hits can miss. The question was "do additional hits have guaranteed acc like melee SATA?" The screenshot of 9tp proves the answer is no.

What a limited point of view. Here's mine:
When dual wielding, two hits have perfect accuracy
When using a two-handed weapon, two hits have perfect accuracy

Now, the chance that this is a coincidence is the chance that one of the two extra hits connected to the power of the number of samples, so
1-(1-(2*acc*(1-acc)))^n,
where acc is the actual hit rate (20% in my case) and n is the testing sample (well over 20, but don't know the exact number, so I'll use that). So, the chance that this is a coincidence is less than 0.04%, or put differently, it's 99.96% probable that they're related. Yet, you're saying this doesn't need further analysis?

Also, how is saying "it works on the first two hits" more complex than "it works on the certain two hits when dual wielding but otherwise on one hit"? And how is it more complex if we already know that there's other effects that work on the first two hits of a WS (like the ability to double/triple attack)?

[Aana]

Lulz i didnt see you were testing with a staff (assumed daggers since it was a thf discussion :P) so i couldnt imagine what you still needed to 'verify' that wasnt already in the link i posted. I thought you were trying to create some weird model beyond "you can miss additional 1tp hits" for SA+Dagger skills when it is quite clear from my link that you could. Makes way more sense now.

On staves:
Its been known for years that SA+WS with a 2handed weapon gurantees the 1st TWO hits. This has been the case since SA+Sturmwind/Double thrust/Enpi was all the rage in 2004. Thats why you cant get a 9% with a staff with such crap acc leaving you with 10 in most cases. The 11 was probably just an odball outlier since acc can only get floored for melee hits to 20%, so always a 1/5 chance to land that 3rd hit and probably just rolled lucky.

SA with 1handed weapons is 100% on the 1st hit. If you DW, you also get 100% on the offhand.

2hand=1st 2 hit 100%. 1hand=main 100%, offhand(if applicable) 100%.

[Arcon]

On staves:
Its been known for years that SA+WS with a 2handed weapon gurantees the 1st TWO hits. This has been the case since SA+Sturmwind/Double thrust/Enpi was all the rage in 2004.

I guess that, relatively speaking, I'm still new to the THF scene. I didn't have a DD pre-2009 and only leveled THF later that year, and I've never once been DD/THF, so none of that was known to me. However, it seems you're the one overcomplicating things now. It seems pretty obvious and simple: SA/TA guarantee the first two hits of a weapon skill to land. There's no need for any distinction by cases.

[Falseliberty]

something something the new merit stuff for AC is gonna give chance @ quadruple attack now instead of ACC per merit?

[Karbuncle]

something something the new merit stuff for AC is gonna give chance @ quadruple attack now instead of ACC per merit?

... What?

Where are you getting that from >_>?

[Motenten]

The untranslated post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/21210-dev1080-dev1084-%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A9%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%BC%E3%83%81%E3%83%A3%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%81%A8%E3%82%A2%E3%82%B5%E3%82%B7%E3%83%B3%E3%83%81%E3%83%A3%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%81%AE%E8%AA%BF%E6%95%B4%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6?p=285069&viewfull=1#post285069) from a few days ago. Rough translation:

[[
First couple quotes are notes about the original dev1080/dev1084 plans, which was reducing default recast time from 15 minutes to 5, and adding 25% accuracy per additional merit rather than reducing recast time. The translated versions of those are here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20418-dev1080-Job-Adjustments-Thief) and here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20434-dev1084-Job-Adjustments-Warrior-Part-II).

Since they worked out that you virtually never need any substantial amount of additional accuracy, they planned to change the effect.

Note that the original change is what's going in on the test server tomorrow.

Concerns

If the use of the abilities was only for auto-attack, it'd be fine. However the effect isn't so workable when combined with weaponskills. It can only either work with the first hit or all hits.

Essentially, either you can get the accuracy boost on the first hit allong with the DA/TA (which makes the accuracy mostly useless due to the innate boost you get on the first hit anyway, and even less so when combined with SA/TA), or get the accuracy on all hits but also have the DA/TA proc on all hits (which is overpowered).


So, the effect of the revised change is that:

Warrior's Charge: Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll triple attack rather than just double attack.

Assassin's Charge: Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll quadruple attack rather than just triple attack.
]]

There's also a followup post in that same thread made yesterday to answer some questions a jp poster had.

[Karbuncle]

Hmmm, I'm going to Keep 5/5 Feint, But maybe go with 4/5Asn Charge and 1/5 Aura Steal, Keep my merits how they are, 20% Chance of Quad attack on Mercy stroke doesn't strike me as horrible.

[Laphine]

a 20% chance of an extra hit still sounds silly. Although it's not like we have so many options...

I would rather have a decent boost to triple attack damage instead. This (hopefully) would affect the damage of the main hit of a ws, making it much more juicy.

[Arcon]

I would rather have a decent boost to triple attack damage instead. This (hopefully) would affect the damage of the main hit of a ws, making it much more juicy.

It would likely work like DA and TA and just add another melee round of the main weapon in the mix. Which, I have to say, sounds pretty awesome to me, I have no idea why people are not psyched about this. I'm pretty sure I'll keep 5/5 AC and maybe 5/5 AS, depending on how shitty the TH adjustment for Feint will be.

[Laphine]

You mean instead of 3 hits we would have, idk, 6? lol Certainly it would be awesome, but by Motenten's words it doesn't sound like that at all for me.

"Instead of -2:30 to the reuse timer, additional merits add 5% to the chance that you'll quadruple attack rather than just triple attack."

But if an AC triple attack had a chance to proc a quadruple, it would be very interesting indeed. Otherwise we are talking about a single extra hit worth of damage every 25min of AC usage.

[Arcon]

You mean instead of 3 hits we would have, idk, 6? lol Certainly it would be awesome, but by Motenten's words it doesn't sound like that at all for me.

Huh? Why not? I don't see him say anything about it.


But if an AC triple attack had a chance to proc a quadruple, it would be very interesting indeed. Otherwise we are talking about a single extra hit worth of damage every 25min of AC usage.

A single extra hit worth of damage every 5min (why 25min?). Doesn't sound too bad to me. What if AC would give the next WS a 15% damage boost? Because that's about what it boils down to, even more depending on WS.

[Laphine]

I considered that the QA replaces TA back there. 20% chance to get a quadruple it's 1 QA every 5 ACs. 1 lousy extra hit in 25min. Now if the QA is procd from the TA, we would have 3 extra hits every 25min. Much better.

[Arcon]

I considered that the QA replaces TA back there. 20% chance to get a quadruple it's 1 QA every 5 ACs. 1 lousy extra hit in 25min. Now if the QA is procd from the TA, we would have 3 extra hits every 25min. Much better.

I see, talking averages. And I maintain that this is better than the alternative (accuracy boost). Assassin's Charge is a pretty small bonus in itself, if you think about it, this is still quite nice.

[Aana]

I guess that, relatively speaking, I'm still new to the THF scene. I didn't have a DD pre-2009 and only leveled THF later that year, and I've never once been DD/THF, so none of that was known to me. However, it seems you're the one overcomplicating things now. It seems pretty obvious and simple: SA/TA guarantee the first two hits of a weapon skill to land. There's no need for any distinction by cases.

I realize it sounds nitpicky, but its just not quite the same thing. 2hand is 1st 2 hits. 1hand is just the 1st hit (IE sharkbite single wield doesnt land both hits, or evis or anything else), UNLESS you DW and then it gets the stats of your offhand instead of your mainhand for the second 100% hit. Its not a big deal anymore since DW is native, but its still not the 1st 2 hits. And i didnt mean that everyone should know it and your dumb, i was only pointing out that its been known for years so you dont have to go personally verify and reinvent the wheel on old stuff.
______________________________
On topic, the quad attack is ok i guess. I would be flabberghasted if it actually added an additional 3 hits BEYOND the 2 that TA gives. I would suspect that it just makes the triple into a quad and nothing more. We do still have the 8hit limitation to deal with which would make it worthless on things like evis/DE that is already5+1 hit normally (DW) and 8 with just a normal TA. Even on 4+1 Exenterator a quad atack on 1st hit would prevent a TA on the offhand hit which is actually a bit of a kick in the teeth.

I wouldnt really loose any sleep over a 20% shot every 5 min to land 1 extra hit (that can miss) on a WS unless you are a Twash/Mandau thf as those WS have monster mods and only 1+1 hit base so it wont overwrite a TA proc on the offhand. QA+TA=7hit rudra/mercy.....that sounds kinda nice for some screenies, even though it has little effect on overall DOT as a thf.

Honestly, none of our merit 'adjustments' do anything really awesome. But the adjustments do take the 'cookie cutter' effect away. You can stick 1 in everything then whatever the F you want after that since none are so game breaking that you MUST HAZ EET. I do like that aspect of a little customization, even if minor.

[Arcon]

I realize it sounds nitpicky, but its just not quite the same thing. 2hand is 1st 2 hits. 1hand is just the 1st hit (IE sharkbite single wield doesnt land both hits, or evis or anything else), UNLESS you DW and then it gets the stats of your offhand instead of your mainhand for the second 100% hit. Its not a big deal anymore since DW is native, but its still not the 1st 2 hits. And i didnt mean that everyone should know it and your dumb, i was only pointing out that its been known for years so you dont have to go personally verify and reinvent the wheel on old stuff.

Well, apparently I do because much of what you said is not correct. It does always work on the first two hits, even when single-wielding. Show me one screenshot of a single-wielded SA/TA'd Shark Bite returning less than 6 TP. I just tested it with Fast Blade and I never got less than 7 TP return, but I got plenty of 6TP returns without it. Much of what you think is "known" is often "guessed" or sometimes "misinterpreted". Ask people what's known about TH and they will tell you everything from "it doesn't do anything" to "it guarantees every third drop but only if you're wearing a subligar and are facing towards the mothercrystal".

Also, about TP return when dual wielding, the first two hits return full TP. This is undisputable fact and can be very easily tested. To my knowledge, it's currently believed that the offhand hit occurs right after the mainhand hit (something I don't subscribe to myself yet), hence the second full TP return would be from the offhand hit. However, personally I think people just assumed the offhand hit to occur right after the mainhand hit because of the TP return of the second hit. I have found no testing supporting either theory, and unless that can be provided somehow I'll get on to testing that myself soon.

So, either way, current testing fully supports the theory that the rule is simply "first two hits of a WS" for the accuracy boost from SA/TA, even when single-wielding and even when the second hit is the offhand hit, as may very well be the case.

[Ophannus]

Any word yet if TH11 is the cap? Since 5/5 Feint merits would be 100% chance of increasing TH and the recast is 5min, can it be possible to see if TH11 is the cap by feinting every 5 min for about 30min with base TH7 on test server?

[Laphine]

Feint is 2min recast. Also, TH11 was never a cap considering the TH12 pics out there. But maybe we could prove them to be fake pics? lol i never saw th12 i think.

The real question, since i haven't read anything and stopped playing yet again, is whether feint is 100% TH proc at the feinting hit or a double proc rate while it's effect is up.

[Arcon]

Feint is 2min recast. Also, TH11 was never a cap considering the TH12 pics out there. But maybe we could prove them to be fake pics? lol i never saw th12 i think.

Pretty sure it's uncapped. I don't know where people get 11 from, when there's been tons of reports going to 13 and higher, there's a few screenshots with 14+ about (even on this forum somewhere).


The real question, since i haven't read anything and stopped playing yet again, is whether feint is 100% TH proc at the feinting hit or a double proc rate while it's effect is up.

That is the big question, currently. Personally I think it's the latter. I don't think SE will actually make it increase TH so readily, this would lead to big abuse (like on Behemoth). Could get 5 THF to increase TH to 30 in ten minutes, which sounds just ridiculous. Although if it had a cap, this would definitely be the way to find out.

[SpankWustler]

That is the big question, currently. Personally I think it's the latter. I don't think SE will actually make it increase TH so readily, this would lead to big abuse (like on Behemoth). Could get 5 THF to increase TH to 30 in ten minutes, which sounds just ridiculous. Although if it had a cap, this would definitely be the way to find out.

My extremely cynical guess: People will attain Treasure Hunter 30 regularly, be very happy for a very short time, and soon thereafter discover that Treasure Hunter 30 is roughly 2.7% better than the usual highs of Treasure Hunter 10~.

I always assume there's going to be a Twilight Zone Twist to every change, just so I can feel like some sort of doom-saying prophet who can predict the future if it turns out I'm right. I make similar predictions about my bowel movements.

[Esvedium]

Pretty sure it's uncapped. I don't know where people get 11 from, when there's been tons of reports going to 13 and higher, there's a few screenshots with 14+ about (even on this forum somewhere).



That is the big question, currently. Personally I think it's the latter. I don't think SE will actually make it increase TH so readily, this would lead to big abuse (like on Behemoth). Could get 5 THF to increase TH to 30 in ten minutes, which sounds just ridiculous. Although if it had a cap, this would definitely be the way to find out.

You assume that TH30 would actually mean something...

[Babekeke]

[dev1080] Thief
Assassin’s Charge
Recast time has been reduced from fifteen minutes to five.
Additional merit points now increase the chance of a fourfold attack by 5% per merit point.
Feint
Recast time has been reduced from ten minutes to two.
Additional merit points no longer reduce recast time, but instead raise the chance of Treasure Hunter leveling up by 25% per point.

Did they tell us about this? or just sprung it upon us? Either way, I like it!

Edit: wait actually, at least with acc, I knew 1/5 was the way ahead... now I have to think >.>

[Arcon]

Did they tell us about this? or just sprung it upon us? Either way, I like it!

Edit: wait actually, at least with acc, I knew 1/5 was the way ahead... now I have to think >.>

Yush, they did tell us that a while ago, because everyone seemed unimpressed about the accuracy boost. Same goes for the Warrior's Charge update, which will now grant a chance at a triple attack.

[Babekeke]

Wow, I must have read it whilst drunk or asleep... I went to find the post and I've already 'liked' it. Don't remember seeing it at all.

Warrior's charge is a no-brainer though. Tomahawk and Aggressive aim are worthless.
Aura Steal has it's uses, but I think I'll likely scrap it for good now.

[Arcon]

I'm pretty sure I'll do 5/5 AS and AC. I have very little use for both Feint and TH at this point in time.

Also, Tomahawk is a VW proc. I've come across several WARs who merited it just for that. Not me though.

[Yinnyth]

Well, from what I've seen myself in Dynamis, 5/5 feint IS NOT a 100% TH+ proc. Not sure if it's been mentioned by people on test server before now. Not sure if it's a bug. Not sure if it's just a poor choice of words for the merit description. Not sure if there's some fundamental thing about TH+ procs I just don't understand. But I was using feint every chance I got vs. NMs and it just wasn't getting me TH+. Heck, I went out to some really weak mobs just now (but not so weak that I could 1-shot them) and tried feint 3 times. 0 TH+ procs.

[Karbuncle]

I posted a response in your bug thread, but yah, its bad interpretation i guess.

Feint gives +100% Chance to upgrade TH, and a 100% Chance.

It doubles your base rate pretty much. For instance, 10% of 10% is 1%, So with Capped Feint, You'd get 100% of 10%, Doubling it to 20% (Example numbers).

Was discussed when it was introduced on test server. Working as intended.

[Babekeke]

Hmmm, well I always forget to use feint, so unless I add it to a ws macro, maybe I'm better off just going AS AC too. I hoped that it was 100%, not +100%, but I guess I was sorely mistaken, afterall, 12-14 mins for a party with 1 THF to guarantee TH15 is of course broken (oh no, wait we usually kill stuff within 3 mins).

Is it just me, or does anyone else find themselves giving a little 'woohoo' if they kill a NM and see just 1 single TH proc?
I don't mean that I care that much because the difference between TH8 and TH9 is amazing, I just mean that it's such a rare occurrance.