Stormsurge vs Boost/Gain.

[Garota]

Balance. I want it now. WHM has potential to cap their Boost-Spells at +25. RDM doesn't matter because it's lame and unaccessionable... I'm stuck at +12 with Capped Merits onto Stormsurge & Augmented Relic Boots+2. Do something about it SE Devs. This is unbalanced.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Boost spell's intention is to increase stats, Stormsurge is a merit to augment storm spells. There is no need to change this +12 was the best they did, and it's all they should do.

[Dantedmc]

Except whm/sch hailstorm + boost int > sch hailstorm . Or firestorm + boost str. Not to mention the boosts are not tied to a storm making them all around superior. Whm could give firestorm and boost-int to the blm instead of firestorm + 7(12) str. It's not as big a deal to me as sch as a some other issues, but it's still a valid argument.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Except whm/sch hailstorm + boost int > sch hailstorm . Or firestorm + boost str. Not to mention the boosts are not tied to a storm making them all around superior. Whm could give firestorm and boost-int to the blm instead of firestorm + 7(12) str. It's not as big a deal to me as sch as a some other issues, but it's still a valid argument.

Such is the bonus of /sch

main sch grants a stats bonus, but again you're not understanding this, the stats you gain is a bonus on the storm spells themselves. whm/sch does not gain these and it requires them to do two spells Storm (minus the ones they don't get) then a Boost spell. They are two separate spells, that do two different things.

12 is basically half what WHM can do on the spell line (at max skill: 500) that ONLY does the stats bonus. Seriously SCH is a mix between WHM/BLM stop asking for everything both jobs have it's not happening.

You can't compare casting two spells to casting just the one.

[Einalem]

1) If you are sub SCH, you do not get SCH merits. This means if you Storm, there will be no stat change.
2) I would not be opposed to a rescaling of the Stormsurge Stat Bonus.

As an Elvaan SCH, I would appreciate the rescale to allow me an INT bonus w/ Stormsurge on Hailstorm to compare to a naked Taru.
FFXI Stat calculator says: the difference is 13. This actually only puts us 1 stat point in Surge between the Highest INT and lowest INT races.
In the opposite case of MND: Taru only have an 8 MND deficit, so this still works.
They could up the amount of surge by 1, this would allow Voidstorm and even 4 stat increase base, so this does 'balance', even if it isn't something as dramatic as you want.

[Zhronne]

Except whm/sch hailstorm + boost int > sch hailstorm . Or firestorm + boost str. Not to mention the boosts are not tied to a storm making them all around superior. Whm could give firestorm and boost-int to the blm instead of firestorm + 7(12) str. It's not as big a deal to me as sch as a some other issues, but it's still a valid argument.
Heh... indeed.
Kinda sad but that's the state of the job as of now =/

[Dantedmc]

Such is the bonus of /sch

main sch grants a stats bonus, but again you're not understanding this, the stats you gain is a bonus on the storm spells themselves. whm/sch does not gain these and it requires them to do two spells Storm (minus the ones they don't get) then a Boost spell. They are two separate spells, that do two different things.

12 is basically half what WHM can do on the spell line (at max skill: 500) that ONLY does the stats bonus. Seriously SCH is a mix between WHM/BLM stop asking for everything both jobs have it's not happening.

You can't compare casting two spells to casting just the one.

It's not that big of a deal to cast two spells. In a DD pt you won't even have to cast storms and can just focus on gain-str or something. If you happen to have a cor, tossing them a firestorm won't be much of an issue. If your in a mage heavy pt use accession. If for some reason you have a lone blm in the pt with a bunch of melee I guess they'll lose out (though when does that happen?)

Though I guess It doesn't matter, I'm contemplating demeriting stormsurge for the 1 merit strats, since the most I get from it is +7 (12) int during hailstorm.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's not that big of a deal to cast two spells. In a DD pt you won't even have to cast storms and can just focus on gain-str or something. If you happen to have a cor, tossing them a firestorm won't be much of an issue. If your in a mage heavy pt use accession. If for some reason you have a lone blm in the pt with a bunch of melee I guess they'll lose out (though when does that happen?)

Though I guess It doesn't matter, I'm contemplating demeriting stormsurge for the 1 merit strats, since the most I get from it is +7 (12) int during hailstorm.

It's not the point.

2 Spells, when you can do one on SCH main for half the potency, it doesn't need to be more powerful.

[Dantedmc]

How often do you cast windstorm to give wind weather bonus and 12 agi? the only ones that really goes together is int and hailstorm and maybe firestorm and str for wildfire cors.

[Sotek]

A gimped version of Boost/Gain as a merit option (and gear option) is down right pathetic.
A gimped version of Boost/Gain as Scholars best (and pretty much only decent) merit option is SE at their finest.

Repeat suggestion #47: Give Stormsurge +3% weather effect per merit.

inb4 "no double weather because sch doesn't share storm spells with me :(" and all that other assorted idiocy.

[Eric]

... so the group 2 merit adjustments came, and stormsurge got absolutely no adjustment. Do you guys think there's absolutely any chance SE will think of doing something like what Sotek said? I always ask BLMs and WHMs in my parties if they want any weather, and they mostly respond with "idc." The people who actually thank me for Hailstorm are grateful for the INT bonus, rather than the weather bonus. +3% effect per merit is nothing close to game-breaking.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

... so the group 2 merit adjustments came, and stormsurge got absolutely no adjustment. Do you guys think there's absolutely any chance SE will think of doing something like what Sotek said? I always ask BLMs and WHMs in my parties if they want any weather, and they mostly respond with "idc." The people who actually thank me for Hailstorm are grateful for the INT bonus, rather than the weather bonus. +3% effect per merit is nothing close to game-breaking.

A 25% Boost isn't game breaking when you consider this + every other bonus in gear..... right!!! Okay then.

[Sotek]

Game breaking is Cures doing 9999 damage.

Game changing is Embrava.

A natural progression to Storm spells is neither of these things, you're an idiot if you think magic damage getting a boost is ever going to be game breaking. Even if I'd said +15% per merit, SAM would still be out damaging SCH and BLM.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Game breaking is Cures doing 9999 damage.

Game changing is Embrava.

A natural progression to Storm spells is neither of these things, you're an idiot if you think magic damage getting a boost is ever going to be game breaking. Even if I'd said +15% per merit, SAM would still be out damaging SCH and BLM.

Over-powering a job is game breaking, you're an idiot if you think otherwise.

A bug doesn't suddenly become the only way to break a game, don't delude yourself.

[Sotek]

Guess Embrava was game breaking then.

You're still deluding yourself if you think an extra 15% on Storm spells is overpowering in any sense, though.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Guess Embrava was game breaking then.

You're still deluding yourself if you think an extra 15% on Storm spells is overpowering in any sense, though.

Hence it's under a 2-hour, restriction placed. (ignoring a blatant game exploit)

PS. Wow if you think a spell that grants a straight 25% potency isn't overpowered.

[Sotek]

Hence it's under a 2-hour, restriction placed. (ignoring a blatant game exploit)

And yet Embrava is used for practically everything, near fulltime to boot. As far as restrictions go, they really couldn't have failed any harder.


PS. Wow if you think a spell that grants a straight 25% potency isn't overpowered.

Because it isn't, and its certainly not a potency boost, it's a affinity boost. Learn the difference.
In terms of restrictions, every spell not being the same element forcing the SCH to constantly reapply Storm spells is far better than that failure you cite as being Embravas (non-existent) restriction. Time spent casting Storm spells is time spent not nuking or healing, even if you only keep them up on yourself it is a pretty noticeable negative impact on the amount of nukes you do over time, in terms of DoT it isn't going to be a straight +25%.

But ignoring that, an extra 15% magic damage still isn't going to push BLM or SCH close to a real DDs damage. You're complaint is either; "Magic Damage should suck", which is countered by the fact they added +20% damage with Trials and you seemingly don't care about that, or "SCH shouldn't get buffs that gives +25% magic affinity", which is countered by:

PS. Wow if you think a spell that grants a straight 25%~41% ATK boost* isn't overpowered.

*or substitute any useful buff in the game.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

And yet Embrava is used for practically everything, near fulltime to boot. As far as restrictions go, they really couldn't have failed any harder.

For now, if they start using Legion style/original "non easy-mode" style in all their endgame unless it's 15 minutes, you have multiple SCH's or you use an exploit it can not be used fulltime.

[Raksha]

Locking your 2 hour isnt an exploit.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2817-Brew-Lock?p=34730&viewfull=1#post34730

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Locking your 2 hour isnt an exploit.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/2817-Brew-Lock?p=34730&viewfull=1#post34730

A truer reply: We have no idea how to fix it, or it can't be fixed so we'll pretend it's intended.

[Cabalabob]

Repeat suggestion #47: Give Stormsurge +3% weather effect

I think this is a nice idea, as long as this boost is effectively double weather, so if there is single weather or double weather already in effect then it would do nothing.

[Siiri]

Scholar doesn't need anything. You have your overpowered 2 hour which is used for all new content, guaranteeing you a spot in every alliance, or 2 in nyzul party of 6. Just hope SE doesn't nerf it, which they should.

[Sotek]

You're totally right, SCH being literally only useful because of its 2Hr means SCH should get absolutely no adjustments what-so-ever, Libra and Modus should remain absolutely useless and a waste of space.

Or, you know, we could accept that fact that other than Regen and Storm spells SCH pretty much lacks any sense of real uniqueness outside its 2Hr, continue to improve on that niche and stop being ignorant of the fact that SE is adding 20 new 2Hrs and Embrava is almost certainly going to become less useful if SE continues their trend of 2Hr adjustments.

Fairly irrelevant though, considering the development team doesn't give a rats ass about what goes on in the job forums unless they've already got something planned, implemented it on the test server and are looking for feedback when all they're going to get is "This completely sucks". Quite obviously they're too busy playing chef to actually bother balancing this game worth a damn.

[Siiri]

You're totally right, SCH being literally only useful because of its 2Hr means SCH should get absolutely no adjustments what-so-ever, Libra and Modus should remain absolutely useless and a waste of space.


I didn't see where we were discussing MV and Libra in this thread. I thought it was about if stormsurge needed a 15% increase to weather spells. I don't think that is needed. Sch has already replaced blm in any alliance for stuns, just take a sch/blm riding strats. Giving them more storm damage over blm in addition to ebullience is to much. I understand sch had a bad year or two, but scholar is a job always right on the cusp of obsoleting white mage and black mage if buffed too much.

[Sotek]

I didn't see where we were discussing MV and Libra in this thread.

No, but I believe your exact words were "Scholar doesn't need anything", and Modus working and Libra being worth a damn is something that is needed.


I thought it was about if stormsurge needed a 15% increase to weather spells.

Wrong again. I suggested Stormsurge getting a +3%/merit boost (some time ago), everyone has either agreed with me or outright rejected the idea without offering any alternative or building on the concept. Nope, just "hurhur it's overpowered", "hurhur Embrava" and "SCH can apparently completely replace Stunners, cast Storm spells and nuke efficiently all simultaneously".
The premise for this thread (and my suggestion) is that Stormsurge is shit and Storm spells are mostly accessibly to everyone, so far you've added pretty much nothing to the thread.


Giving them more storm damage over blm in addition to ebullience is to much.

Storm spells are unique to SCH and we absolutely cannot cast them on BLM or WHM, I called it months ago:


inb4 "no double weather because sch doesn't share storm spells with me :(" and all that other assorted idiocy.

Horseshit events like Nyzul hardly count in this respect, BLM and WHM were completely irrelevant in Nyzul long before SE released Embrava and Storm spells have next to nothing to do with the event itself. Arguably Aurorastorm is a boon, but Cure IV is already at such a ridiculous state that it hardly matters.

[Merton9999]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate on this one and you guys can tell me if I'm being dumb or math-lazy.

When I'm on WHM, that +25 bonus to the whole party is nice as far as that big number goes, but it feels limited in the sense that it has to be the same stat for everyone, or at least for all the DDs and another for the back line. Now of course I could run around trying to align myself perfectly to give different people different stats, but that kind of BRD act doesn't seem feasible when my primary purpose is to keep the group alive, so I don't bother with that.

On SCH my group has gotten into asking for the Stormsurge stat that mods their preferred WS. I comply because I'm generally a people-pleaser over a number cruncher that wants to argue, but that's my question for this group. Would the dps from giving +12 STR firestorm to everyone outweigh the boosts to their main WS from different storm spells? I'm thinking primarily Abyssea now where WSs are going off every second. Outside it would be different of course.

So what I'm saying is +12 seems balanced to me because I can tailor it to each player whereas on WHM I'm stuck with giving the same +25 to everyone. But that's under the assumption that a different stat based on WS mod comes close to +25 STR to all DDs over time. That's where I'm math-lazy.

I don't think a +15% additional weather bonus would be bad, and I certainly don't think it would be unbalanced, but I'd miss giving specific weather to people. That's just a personal preference, enjoying the job as pseudo-Geomancer as I do. Or Sotek, are you saying keep the +7 from the original merits and have Argute Loafers +2 add the 3% weather bonus per merit? That I could do.

I was always hoping for a JA for storms though. One that elevates them to double weather or double/triple stormsurge stat. A timer that allowed it to be kept on 2-3 people would be ideal.

All the time I've played SCH I knew exactly one person in game that had some weird hatred for it and thought it was overpowered. Incidentally she was a very annoying emo borderline-suicidal teenager. I was happy all the adults I played with said watching me play it made them interested in leveling it, regardless of the work they put into their WHM and/or BLM. Most importantly, all of them understood the inherent limitations in actually playing the job, and that its balance status could not be determined by comparing two numbers in a chat log.

[Delvish]

I have competitions with my BLM and WHM friends. Never win at either, but am at least a contender as SCH. We are each well geared for are jobs and play them well too. SCH is a secondary mage. We can't surpass the mains, but we can suffice. The WHMs and BLMs that complain are the poor skilled and poor equipped BLMs and WHMs that see SCHs oneshotting mobs with Water V while they can't get half-way down on BLizzard V (True story). Thanks for the Devil's Advocate Merto, good insight to the perks of both.

[Sasaraixx]

Merton you do make some good points. If it is a choice between have +25 stats or +12 and applying them individually, I think I would take the former. I know a lot of the newer weaponskills have funky mods on them, so I can see your point. The question of whether or not giving +25 STR to your entire front line party can pull ahead of missing out on giving a more moderate boost to those unique modifiers is the proper one. Like you, I'm not sure! I think you would also have to factor in the time you spend casting each of those unique spells and possible stratagems used, etc. I also think that in Abyssea it would make less of a difference given all of the inflated stats do to atmas and cruor enhancements.

I can see the "balance" argument, but if we want to play devil's advocate, as someone else pointed out a WHM/SCH can provide most of the storm spells on top of the stat gain. The ability to do both had been exclusive to SCH.

I'm actually a bit ambivalent to this issue. Like Sotek, I'd rather see the other SCH issues dealt with. And if I hear one more person complain about Embrava, I may throw something at them. I won't type the rant that I would love to give them for fear that it might draw SE to the complaints and they actually begin to believe that SCH is not only fine, but overpowered.

[Merton9999]

Yeah the reason I posted was because I'm really not sure myself, but my main point is that there's so much more to consider than just the straight final number of 25 vs. 12.

For example, you're right about the time to apply each storm individually, but then I think what a pain it is on WHM to reapply boosts mid-battle since you have to be in range. As we all know, sometimes coming in range is not advisable, especially given the long casting time of boosts as opposed to barspells. So realistically with boosts, people may be going without any bonus at all whereas with storms you can safely full-time the bonus, at least from the safe-distance perspective. I'm especially thinking of dispel happy mobs, where boosts are the last thing I would reapply on WHM, but on SCH I have a little more freedom there.

I'm not sure what you mean about WHM/SCH being able to do both. /SCH storms won't have the +stat bonus. Unless you meant just the random weather activation for nukes/SC's and weather-specific gear activation. Then yeah, that sits oddly with me too.

[Ezikiel]

there is a Scholar potency boost under startagems i think paired with storm spells it should give double weather and a higher boost

[Merton9999]

there is a Scholar potency boost under startagems i think paired with storm spells it should give double weather and a higher boost

I always thought Rapture should work with more than just cures and lolDivine. Has anyone ever used it to boost the Dia dot? Not I. Anyway, enhance regen potency, stoneskin potency, etc. It wouldn't be a horrible way to enhance storm spells I guess. I'd still prefer a new JA to do this though, so we could effectively boost weather for 2-3 people depending on the recast. If it were tied to our already stretched strategem count I'm afraid I might never use it for boosting storms.

[Camate]

As a couple players in this thread have already stated, Boost/Gain spell’s sole effect is to increase stats. On the other hand, scholar’s storm spell’s main effect is to give weather related bonuses and as an additional bonus they also give a slight increase in stats, which is why they are not as high as other stat enhancing spells.

Something I would like for everyone to keep in mind when asking for adjustments and changes is that each job has various facets that are very different, including their spells and abilities, and it’s not always an easy comparison of “Why does X job have this, when Y job has only this?”

With the above in mind, if there are any suggestions for aspects you would like to see improved, list them out and I will be happy to let the development team know.

[Delvish]

Go easy on Camate guys... >.< *Prepares the floodgates*

[Merton9999]

Go easy on Camate guys... >.< *Prepares the floodgates*

I actually kind of agree with him, playing both jobs as I do, at least in comparing the two numbers from a balance standpoint. I don't know if I buy the dual-purpose argument though. It's rare that the weather effect and the stat boost are both beneficial to the same player. Hailstorm is the only one that sticks out, but my BLMs want thunderstorm anyway, at least outside Abyssea. Are people really doing fire elemental SCs a lot, or is there some awesome gear that's activated by thunder/wind/fire/sand storm too?

I think more along the lines of full-timing the boost on WHM. In current activities I can't really do that, especially when dispel is flying. The proximity and casting time just don't allow for it, unless I just suck on WHM. I have no problem keeping storms up on SCH though.

This still doesn't address the fact that SCH group II merits are pretty awful though. Despite the fact that, all things considered, I don't see a problem with 12 vs 25 given boost spells restrictions, I'd still ask for an enhancement to storms in the end.

Camate, I'm still sticking with a "Geomancy" JA that doubles storm potency, in both the weather effect and the stat boost. The recast should allow for 2-3 members to have the boost at once. Don't tie it to strategems because I'd probably never use it except when soloing.

[Raksha]

As a couple players in this thread have already stated, Boost/Gain spell’s sole effect is to increase stats. On the other hand, scholar’s storm spell’s main effect is to give weather related bonuses and as an additional bonus they also give a slight increase in stats, which is why they are not as high as other stat enhancing spells.

Something I would like for everyone to keep in mind when asking for adjustments and changes is that each job has various facets that are very different, including their spells and abilities, and it’s not always an easy comparison of “Why does X job have this, when Y job has only this?”

With the above in mind, if there are any suggestions for aspects you would like to see improved, list them out and I will be happy to let the development team know.

I'm not spending merits to give people weather, i'm spending merits to give them a pathetic stat boost.

See the problem?

[Sotek]

Go easy on Camate guys... >.< *Prepares the floodgates*

I imagine I'm one of the more vocal players, but I'm in a perpetual state of not caring at this point, certainly not enough to rant like I used to.

That said, I never cared about the stats boost balance to begin with, in fact I advocated outright removing it or at least reducing it by changing the Enhances "Stormsurge" effect on Argute Loafers +2. The stats boost on Stormsurge was random in my opinion, Storm spells should have had a potency boost. Sadly, Camates post in no way touches on a potency increase for Storm spells, which I thought was the bulk of this thread. WHM can offer Boost-STR or Boost-INT and whichever Storm an individual wants bar the last three, while SCH can offer all the Storms with, in most cases, absolutely useless stats attached. The issue is that there is no sense of progression with Storm spells while most of them are accessible from subjob now, the fact that WHM can offer a superior (and relevant) stats boost as well is just insult to injury in my opinion.

Anyway, reduce the level we learn Storm spells at such that /SCH has access to all of them (this makes far more sense than Helices) and change Argute Loafers +2 to +3%/merit (what I originally hoped it would do) or add a new JA like Merton says and I'll just unmerit Stormsurge. I'd rather have the former since it redeems SCHs merits in some way, but I've suggested the later in the past so I'm not about to disagree with it.

While you here Camate, Libra could really do with a range increase and Modus Veritas is not working, if they give the same working as expected line could you hit them or something for me? They're not even major issues, just simple ones. My faith in the development team completely dissipates when such simple matters are not addressed or just completely ignored.

[Sasaraixx]

As a couple players in this thread have already stated, Boost/Gain spell’s sole effect is to increase stats. On the other hand, scholar’s storm spell’s main effect is to give weather related bonuses and as an additional bonus they also give a slight increase in stats, which is why they are not as high as other stat enhancing spells.

Something I would like for everyone to keep in mind when asking for adjustments and changes is that each job has various facets that are very different, including their spells and abilities, and it’s not always an easy comparison of “Why does X job have this, when Y job has only this?”

With the above in mind, if there are any suggestions for aspects you would like to see improved, list them out and I will be happy to let the development team know.

Aside from the OP, I think that most of us are saying that a WHM can give a full powered storm effect (save the last 3) AND a superior stat boost with the ability to mix and match.

I also think that most of us really don't care about the weaker stat boost itself aside from the fact that, 1. It is sadly our best merit option and 2. it just reinforces that outside of our 2hr there aren't many buffs that are unique to a SCH that are actually useful. Both of these problems could be addressed without having to improve the stat effect to storm spells and I would hope that is what happens. That would be a much better use of the dev team's time.

[Merton9999]

Aside from the OP, I think that most of us are saying that a WHM can give a full powered storm effect (save the last 3) AND a superior stat boost with the ability to mix and match.

So true. WHM/SCH is capable of giving the weather boost and an independent stat boost, both of which provide simultaneous benefit. It really shoots the devs' dual-benefit defense for limited Stormsurge stat boosts out of the sky.



The issue is that there is no sense of progression with Storm spells while most of them are accessible from subjob now.

This is my biggest problem with them. I was one of the people clamoring for Geomancer when ToAU was first announced. I was excited to see the potential SCH storm spells would have, then they didn't grow at all. The Klimaform bonus on AF3 is nice, but not the progression level I expected with a unique spell line. That's really why I'd like to see a unique JA that addresses storm potency alone.

I have to agree regarding Libra too. It's such a minor ability but in the few cases where it's helpful the range limitation is insufferable. We've heard the "working as intended" silliness concerning Modus Veritas, but I don't recall a response about Libra range, nor any further information on adding additional statistics to it.

I know, let me use Libra on Nyzule lamps to reveal their order.

[Yinnyth]

So true. WHM/SCH is capable of giving the weather boost and an independent stat boost, both of which provide simultaneous benefit. It really shoots the devs' dual-benefit defense for limited Stormsurge stat boosts out of the sky.

By that logic, sch can sub bard to use etudes to increase the amount of the attribute they're enhancing. My opinion is that the weather spells are about weather. Stormsurge is a secondary boost which also gives weather spells some use in situations where they wouldn't otherwise be useful.

Could just be me, but I'd rather see tier II storm spells (double weather) than a boost to stormsurge.

[Raksha]

By that logic, sch can sub bard to use etudes to increase the amount of the attribute they're enhancing. My opinion is that the weather spells are about weather. Stormsurge is a secondary boost which also gives weather spells some use in situations where they wouldn't otherwise be useful.

Could just be me, but I'd rather see tier II storm spells (double weather) than a boost to stormsurge.

SCH is actually a useful sub for whm, and also you can only have 1 brd song as /brd. Of course you knew all of this already.

I would also rather have t2 storms than revamped stormsurge, but there's no reason we can't have both.

[Sotek]

My only concern with an ability is that there is a finite number of separate ability recasts a job can have, though I don't think SCH is anywhere near the limit. Might be a concern with Group 3 merits coming in October, though. Then again I think they were working on fixing that issue anyway.

I'd still want an adjustment for Stormsurge regardless though, as it is it just isn't all that great as a merit option. Until recently it was our best merit option and it still is one of the better options, which is just pathetic. In my opinion, they should give it the stats boost by default, maybe limit it to Light Arts only casting in a similar fashion to how Regen works (whether that makes it SCH specific is up for debate). Change Stormsurge into a blatant copy for Avatars Favor, Hailstorm giving MAB, Firestorm giving ATK, Voidstorm giving Refresh, etc. to provide some actual utility to them and the Enhances "Stormsurge" effect could remain exactly the same. As secondary buffs, stats boosts just aren't merit worthy in my opinion, MAB and Refresh are. Voidstorm would no doubt be balanced in a similar fashion to how it currently is.

That would couple nicely with a Geomancer ability, depending on how they work it. Rather than the ability itself giving double weather, I think it could work better if they treated Storm spells in a similar fashion to BRD songs. Usually you can only have one cast on you at a time, Geomancer ability allows you to have two on at one time (heck, I'm tempted to say screw the ability and just slap that on Tupsimati, throws any complaints of balance right out the window). That would allow for double weather to be cast as well as different combinations to provide some versatility to the job. Hailstorm and Thunderstorm gives weather for the most common nukes as well as MAB and INT for both, Thunderstorm and Firestorm gives STR, DEX, ATK and ACC for DDs and so on. Refresh on Voidstorm might seem a bit overkill, but I'd say it would mostly be useless. Aurorastorm and Voidstorm for healing? You'd get both their Stormsurge buffs, but surely the weather bonuses would cancel each other out. If that isn't enough, they could just make it so weather still overwrites to a degree while retaining the ability to stack two weathers. Firestorm overwrite Hailstorm for example.

Regarding Modus Veritas, I'd like to think they'll admit its broken now, they did remove it from the stagger list in Voidwatch after all. Libra was one of the first things I mentioned on this forum and I've never seen them respond to it, so that's great. If Modus is still working as expected and Libras range is a balance issue, I'm sure I'll get myself banned from here in the rage posts that would follow. I don't even care that much about the abilities (though I love my Modus suggestion (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18821-Modus-Veritas-Accuracy-Suggestion?p=251695&viewfull=1#post251695), but thats practically a whole new ability), I just cant tolerate that level of incompetence anymore.

Only other thing I'd really like to see for SCH is some more (more? are there even any?) Stratagem related abilities. Something like;
-An ability that makes it so Stratagems you currently have in effect are not used up on your next spell, which would be great for conserving Stratagems and casting buffs or using Immanence.
-An ability that switches your Arts/Addenda (LA to DA, AB to AW, etc), which would just be useful and also conserves Stratagem usage to a degree since you wouldn't have to blow a Stratagem on an Addenda when switching Arts.
-An ability that augments the effect of your next Stratagem, such as Accession/Manifestation working on more spells, Rapture/Ebullience enhancing the effect or duration of enfeebles, Perpetuance enhancing potency (stronger SS, Regen, etc.) and Immanence giving a Burstbound effect (Chainbound for Magic Bursts) regardless of whether you successfully executed a SC with it.
Honestly, that last one could have been Enlightenment, give it a 5 minute duration and have it wear off after X Stratagems are used, where X is the number of merits put in it. Certainly beats INT/MND on my Rereaise recast, couple that with a Stormsurge adjustment and I might actually have to put some thought into what I merit.

[Ophannus]

So true. WHM/SCH is capable of giving the weather boost and an independent stat boost, both of which provide simultaneous benefit. It really shoots the devs' dual-benefit defense for limited Stormsurge stat boosts out of the sky.

And SCH/RDM has Sublimation and a full power convert.

In any case WHM/SCH can give aoe stat boosts AND weather but lot of jobs can double up on things with a sub that the sub can't do as a main.
-DRK/WAR gets a 25% attack boost, 3 minute last resort as well as 3min Berserk. WAR/DRK doesn't get a full powered Last Resort though.
-SCH/WHM gets Rapture+Divine Seal+aoe cure, WHM/SCH only gets Divine Seal and AoE.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I'm not spending merits to give people weather, i'm spending merits to give them a pathetic stat boost.

See the problem?

Don't get Stormsurge then. See the solution?

The argument of SCH/WHM doing (some) of the weather bonus' is absurd. There is so many cases SCH/RDM as an example where the main job (SCH99) has far more of a benefit than the subjob at 99 (RDM99).

You're also forgetting WHM unless you scatter the party has to give the same Stat bonus to ALL party members, SCH does not.

Basically: If you want the same potency as two spells that only do the stat buff, then I want my stat buff spell to give weather as well.

[Sotek]

The argument of SCH/WHM doing (some) of the weather bonus' is absurd. There is so many cases SCH/RDM as an example where the main job (SCH99) has far more of a benefit than the subjob at 99 (RDM99).

Are you kidding? That would be relevant if I were saying "SCH should be superior with SCH spells and RDM spells/abilities". I'm not. SCH should be superior with its own unique spells. If I were a RDM in the RDM forum, guess what I'd be saying?
If a job has a predominant and unique aspect, that job should boast mastery at it. That message is true for any job, RDM are welcome to claim Phalanx back from SCH, in fact I'd agree with them, but this is the SCH forum and we're talking about SCH. RDM sucks so SCH (or any job for that matter) should suck is not a valid argument, if you have an issue with SCH being superior with RDM spells/abilities, go argue that RDM should be superior with them and hopefully the irony wont be lost on you. Such an issue is in no way an argument against another job excelling at what makes that job unique.


You're also forgetting WHM unless you scatter the party has to give the same Stat bonus to ALL party members, SCH does not.

You're also forgetting that BLMs will only ever want INT and in all likelihood DDs will only ever want STR, and that WHM can then tailor weather to suit their needs while SCH is stuck giving a BLM who wants to cast Aero an absolutely worthless AGI boost. Heck, if SE lowered the level on Storm spells (which again, I'd be perfectly OK with), WHM could have Aurorastorm and a MND boost while SCH is stuck with the most worthless stat in the game; CHR. As a merit option, Stormsurge is just pathetic. Feel free to claim every job has pathetic merit options so Stormsurge sucking is OK, I just love repeating myself.

I swear, this kind of lazy thinking is exactly why I'm beginning to hate FFXI. Balance is a mess and people would sooner say "That's just the way it is" than take a jobs unique aspect and build upon it. Granted, that pretty much is the way it is, but "The development team sucks" is not an argument against receiving better content, it's an argument for getting a new development team.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Are you kidding? That would be relevant if I were saying "SCH should be superior with SCH spells and RDM spells/abilities". I'm not. SCH should be superior with its own unique spells. If I were a RDM in the RDM forum, guess what I'd be saying?
If a job has a predominant and unique aspect, that job should boast mastery at it. That message is true for any job, RDM are welcome to claim Phalanx back from SCH, in fact I'd agree with them, but this is the SCH forum and we're talking about SCH. RDM sucks so SCH (or any job for that matter) should suck is not a valid argument, if you have an issue with SCH being superior with RDM spells/abilities, go argue that RDM should be superior with them and hopefully the irony wont be lost on you. Such an issue is in no way an argument against another job excelling at what makes that job unique.

You're also forgetting that BLMs will only ever want INT and in all likelihood DDs will only ever want STR, and that WHM can then tailor weather to suit their needs while SCH is stuck giving a BLM who wants to cast Aero an absolutely worthless AGI boost. Heck, if SE lowered the level on Storm spells (which again, I'd be perfectly OK with), WHM could have Aurorastorm and a MND boost while SCH is stuck with the most worthless stat in the game; CHR. As a merit option, Stormsurge is just pathetic. Feel free to claim every job has pathetic merit options so Stormsurge sucking is OK, I just love repeating myself.

I swear, this kind of lazy thinking is exactly why I'm beginning to hate FFXI. Balance is a mess and people would sooner say "That's just the way it is" than take a jobs unique aspect and build upon it. Granted, that pretty much is the way it is, but "The development team sucks" is not an argument against receiving better content, it's an argument for getting a new development team.

No more pathetic than WHM's Regen Merit, RDM's Accuracy merits and so on. SCH's is actually quite good in comparison.

Even if they upped to stats to be equal to the max of RDM and WHM Aurorastorm will forever be CHR, same as the others. SCH doesn't have a line of stat boosting spells, just weather spells with a small bonus for some people.

SE will never allow Double Weather, unless they added tier II stormspells, so in other words never.

As i said before: If you don't like Stormsurge: DON'T MERIT IT

[Sotek]

No more pathetic than WHM's Regen Merit, RDM's Accuracy merits and so on. SCH's is actually quite good in comparison.

I know I kind of told you to bring up this line of argument, but I honestly didn't think you'd be stupid enough to do it. Bravo. RDM or WHM having sucky merit options is not an argument against SCH having better merit options, its an argument for RDM or WHM getting better merit options as well. This is the SCH forum, so we're going to talk about SCH and not every other job. Get the hell over it.

But wait a minute, I think I'm missing something here... Oh right, Regen and Macc merits are Group 1 merits, Stormsurge is Group 2. Good job clutching at straws (FYI, SCH has Macc merits as Group 2 merits, though I guess at least they're not split by element), if you want to compare Group 1 merits I'll just throw Modus Veritas out there for you.


As i said before: If you don't like Stormsurge: DON'T MERIT IT

OK, sure.
Legion sucks, I better not suggest ways the could improve it and just not do the event.
Voidwatch sucks, better not suggest ways they could improve it and just not to the event.
FFXI sucks, better not suggest ways they could improve it and just cancel my damn subscription.

I swear, are you even aware of the purpose of this forum?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I know I kind of told you to bring up this line of argument, but I honestly didn't think you'd be stupid enough to do it. Bravo. RDM or WHM having sucky merit options is not an argument against SCH having better merit options, its an argument for RDM or WHM getting better merit options as well. This is the SCH forum, so we're going to talk about SCH and not every other job. Get the hell over it.

But wait a minute, I think I'm missing something here... Oh right, Regen and Macc merits are Group 1 merits. Good job clutching at straws (FYI, SCH has Macc merits as Group 2 merits, though I guess at least they're not split by element), if you want to compare Group 1 merits I'll just throw Modus Veritas out there for you.



OK, sure.
Legion sucks, I better not suggest ways the could improve it and just not do the event.
Voidwatch sucks, better not suggest ways they could improve it and just not to the event.
FFXI sucks, better not suggest ways they could improve it and just cancel my damn subscription.

I swear, are you even aware of the purpose of this forum?

I'm well aware what it's for:

People to post to fake the belief their opinion is actually even remotely considered by the developers, when in reality the official forums are as useful as unofficial forums in that they don't care for opinions on either.

Do you know what they're for?

[Cowardlybabooon]

Can you make accession at least have a bigger AoE range?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Can you make accession at least have a bigger AoE range?

See this is an alright idea, though I'd imagine it'd come in the form of equipment, since it's how they did it for BRD and COR.

[Sotek]

I'm well aware what it's for:

People to post to fake the belief their opinion is actually even remotely considered by the developers, when in reality the official forums are as useful as unofficial forums in that they don't care for opinions on either.

Do you know what they're for?

A brilliant attempt to change topic, but no. The forums are for us to post suggestions, regardless of whether they'll actually be considered (I do find your point hilarious though, considering on multiple occasions I've pretty much stated that my opinion is something the developers will completely disregard). You post absolutely nothing that can even be considered remotely useful to molding a decent suggestion, "Don't merit it" is by far the most worthless thing you can possibly say but damn it, looks like you're going to keep on saying it.

So, back on topic. Do explain how job X having sucky merits is an argument against job Y getting an adjustment, and not an argument for job X getting an adjustment as well (I even took the names out to help remove your obvious bias).


See this is an alright idea

It would be if this topic wasn't about Stormsurge, keep trying to steer away from an argument you were clearly failing from the start, I'm sure I wont notice sooner or later.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

A brilliant attempt to change topic, but no. The forums are for us to post suggestions, regardless of whether they'll actually be considered (I do find your point hilarious though, considering on multiple occasions I've pretty much stated that my opinion is something the developers will completely disregard). You post absolutely nothing that can even be considered remotely useful to molding a decent suggestion, "Don't merit it" is by far the most worthless thing you can possibly say but damn it, looks like you're going to keep on saying it.

So, back on topic. Do explain how job X having sucky merits is an argument against job Y getting an adjustment, and not an argument for job X getting an adjustment as well (I even took the names out to help remove your obvious bias).



It would be if this topic wasn't about Stormsurge, keep trying to steer away from an argument you were clearly failing from the start, I'm sure I wont notice sooner or later.

Then in that case it's done, they said No. So surely the topic should be closed? Agreed? Good!

[Sotek]

Then in that case it's done, they said No. So surely the topic should be closed? Agreed? Good!

And your attempts to derail become less and less imaginative. Fairly sure Camates exact words were:

With the above in mind, if there are any suggestions for aspects you would like to see improved, list them out and I will be happy to let the development team know.
I've listed out suggestions regarding Stormsurge. You've done absolutely nothing worthwhile. Goodnight, troll.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

And your attempts to derail become less and less imaginative. Fairly sure Camates exact words were:

I've listed out suggestions regarding Stormsurge. You've done absolutely nothing worthwhile. Goodnight, troll.

Translation: No, don't have to be a Genius really.

And your suggestion is OP and wont happen, admittedly not really rare for SCH at the moment, but nevertheless.

[Sotek]

I'd say something like "Good job explaining how its overpowered and providing constructive criticism, thus adding anything to this thread", but I'm fairly sure we've done this dance before so whatever.

[Jerbob]

While I certainly agree that the decision to improve merit abilities shouldn't involve comparisons with the "worth" of other job's merit abilities - the old "Equalise potential upwards instead of with nerfs" debates spring to mind - I think it is important to remember that the intrinsic worth of Stormsurge merits has not changed. They still provide the same bonus that they have always provided, and that bonus is still useful. It is only when comparing Stormsurge to another job's abilities - White Mage - that people are unsatisfied with Stormsurge. This is the point at which I disagree with the "demands" being made here.

It does not make sense to claim that Stormsurge is worthless "because White Mage can do it better". Someone is not going to turn down Firestorm because they can have, or already have, Boost-STR, the ease of use and practicalities of the two different lines of spells notwithstanding. The irony of the original poster's claim of a lack of balance is readily apparent when considering almost everything that SCH is capable of doing in comparison to other jobs, the recent changes to Regen being the most obvious. SCH does not have a claim to attribute-boosting effects any more than White Mage has a claim to placing stoneskin on party members - they are secondary effects. If White Mage's Boost-XXX line of spells precisely duplicated storm spells (including weather component) and then improved upon them then perhaps there would be merit to this line of discussion, but this is not the case - and dependence on a subjob to cast those storms in the first place doesn't change that.

Changing stormsurge to confer a +25 attribute bonus would be a duplication of a whole line of spells for one job and arguably a second. If the only motivation for making this change is simply that White Mage (and Red Mage) possess something that SCH does not, then that motivation is, in my opinion, not good enough.

The argument for improving Stormsurge because of a claimed weakness is an entirely different topic that should not include the "X job can do this and so I want it." undercurrent, but should be mindful of the place of SCH in the game and its relative capabilities compared to jobs that perform the same function. The fact that SCH's support abilities, storms in particular, have a direct impact on its own capabilities as a nuker or healer are unfortunate because it makes these comparisons all the more important, regardless of whether you're able or not to give these boons to others.

For example, I would argue that a hypothetical 5/5 Stormsurge merit effect of increasing storm spell effects to the equivalent of double weather (a total of a +25% increase in potency when using the correct equipment, I believe?) isn't balanced out merely by the fact that SCH can share this with other jobs. Potency increases for a hybrid job that is already teetering on the edge of being very competitive with dedicated jobs are always going to be difficult to justify, and I don't think this is any different.

Because storm spells are a support tool, I think it would be easier to justify improving the Stormsurge merit by giving it new capabilities that the SCH cannot directly take advantage of themselves - this would avoid the comparison with other jobs that "compete" with SCH in similar fields. As storms already improve magical prowess, perhaps Stormsurge could, in addition to the +7(12) attribute bonus, give a +1 percent per merit bonus to damage and accuracy for weaponskills that match the element of the storm? Perhaps not the perfect solution but it illustrates the concept of avoiding the more direct "job balance" issues that can crop up.

[tyrantsyn]

Balance. I want it now. WHM has potential to cap their Boost-Spells at +25. RDM doesn't matter because it's lame and unaccessionable... I'm stuck at +12 with Capped Merits onto Stormsurge & Augmented Relic Boots+2. Do something about it SE Devs. This is unbalanced.

There's still basically a balance issue between the gain and boost spell's as well. The DEV's themselves have pointed out several time's that aoe spell's are typically weaker than a single targeted counter parts. Yet both gain and boost at the same enhancing skills deliver the same amount of increase. Which doesn't make sense.

[Merton9999]

The argument for improving Stormsurge because of a claimed weakness is an entirely different topic that should not include the "X job can do this and so I want it."
...
Because storm spells are a support tool, I think it would be easier to justify improving the Stormsurge merit by giving it new capabilities that the SCH cannot directly take advantage of themselves - this would avoid the comparison with other jobs that "compete" with SCH in similar fields. As storms already improve magical prowess, perhaps Stormsurge could, in addition to the +7(12) attribute bonus, give a +1 percent per merit bonus to damage and accuracy for weaponskills that match the element of the storm? Perhaps not the perfect solution but it illustrates the concept of avoiding the more direct "job balance" issues that can crop up.


I agree with this 100%. Except for the OP, I think this is the spirit of most of the posts here too. I'm not bothered by the fact that WHM bonus is higher. Playing both jobs regularly, if I'm annoyed by anything it's the proximity, casting time, and all-for-one aspects of boosts, not the potency of Stormsurge.

My only problem was that the dev reasoning behind Stormsurge potency seemed poor. I don't want them to continue to think that SCH storms don't deserve an increase in utility because they currently provide two benefits. In actual practice, they don't in most cases. In other words, if Camate had said The dev team feels a stat increase half the strength of boost spells is balanced because we feel it is more likely that in many situations WHM will only be able to maintain a worthwhile enhancement half of the time., that would have made me think someone over there is actually playing the game. Implying that firestorm is providing both a STR and weather bonus to the WAR does not make me think that.

I think the spirit here is that storm spells themselves, being a defining feature of the job, have seen too little growth with the cap raise, independent of how they relate to WHM and RDM. It's an entire unique spell line that you can really get away with casting very little of. Also, that it's troubling Stormsurge has been our best merit option. Of course other jobs have bad merit options, but I see this exactly like Sotek: I'm not asking for SCH merits to be better because they are worse than WHM, I'm asking because they are bad themselves. Another job being worse doesn't justify that or make me want a boost any less. It makes me want that other job to get something better also. I'm just not inclined to use the SCH board to suggest that.

I like your final suggestion of having storms increase WS potency ... I think. While I'd like a "Geomancy" job ability to increase weather to tier two, my Geomancer side primarily wants a reason to full-time different weather on the whole party. That's actually why I initially liked Stormsurge upon introduction - I had a reason to cast storms on more than 2-3 people. A simple potency increase in the weather effect won't motivate me keeping storms on everyone. Adding damage to WSs of the matching element might increase the motivation. Similarly, what about a decent Save TP bonus to WSs of the same element?

The problem with either of these is that they may obsolete the current Stormsurge effect entirely. In order for both the current Stormsurge stat bonus and an additional WS bonus to apply you'd have to have the storm spell match both your desired stat increase and the WS element. If the WS bonus outdoes the Stormsurge stat potency, we might disregard the stat bonus altogether. Then again, maybe having both effects would be worth it for when those elements actually do line up. I just don't know my WS elements well enough to know if that would happen 50% of the time or 5%.

[Delvish]

I actually never thought of this and like the idea quite a bit. Weather spells assist magic abilities to a great extent, and I think it would be a great idea to see Weather spells increase the damage of WS/SCs, naturally based upon their skill chain element. Magic WS like Earth Crusher obviously get a boost from duststorm, but physical weapons could be better improved based upon their SC properties, and any element would do. Thus, a Light (not Transfixion) based WS for example would gain benefit from Aurorastorm, Firestorm, Windstorm, and Rainstorm equally (or have a slight preference).

[Eric]

While a completely random idea (in my opinion), this doesn't sound bad. Helices and storms--what used to be the trademark spells of a scholar--have become usable by anyone who chooses to go /SCH, therefore making us even more irrelevant(outside the scope of Embrava burns) than we already are.

Rather than to increase the stat bonuses granted by stormsurge (an idea that I find uninspired and fueled by jealousy), I think the sort of idea that Jerbob introduced is something that would make the effect of the -storm spells once again something unique to our job.

[Merton9999]

You know what would really make me happy? If a JA added to increase storm spell weather potency also gave the weather and day bonus a 100% activation rate, like obis currently do. That way I could not only free up those inventory slots, but also be able to use something else in the waist slot.

If people would cry about spending all those hours on obis, make it so you gain a trait for each element every time you trade an obi to an NPC. The trait allows the JA to affect that element.

I'd also be curious how a guaranteed weather bonus on an SC would compare to Stormsurge stat bonuses. So would DDs be better off with Aurorastorm/Voidstorm giving a guaranteed skillchain bonus than they would with +12 STR?

This would be slightly less meaningful if they add that Prism Obi people have asked for, at least for mages and the inventory benefit. Also part of me just wants a simple double weather effect JA. But then I'd miss caring about zone weather. With an additional benefit of 100% weather activation, I'd be happy enough about my inventory and that freed up waist slot to live with a +1%-2% increase per merit on weather potency rather than a full double weather effect.

[Rambus]

As a couple players in this thread have already stated, Boost/Gain spell’s sole effect is to increase stats. On the other hand, scholar’s storm spell’s main effect is to give weather related bonuses and as an additional bonus they also give a slight increase in stats, which is why they are not as high as other stat enhancing spells.

Something I would like for everyone to keep in mind when asking for adjustments and changes is that each job has various facets that are very different, including their spells and abilities, and it’s not always an easy comparison of “Why does X job have this, when Y job has only this?”

With the above in mind, if there are any suggestions for aspects you would like to see improved, list them out and I will be happy to let the development team know.

I'm not spending merits to give people weather, i'm spending merits to give them a pathetic stat boost.

See the problem?
That^
They are different abilities sure (Talking to rep) but you are talking about merit boost.

there is no merit that is called "Boost: Boost/Gain spells"

Also remember a RDM/SCH can give themselves a bigger stat boost and weather and that whm/sch can give anyone weather and a stat boost.

(Have not tried but can arm AOE those stat spells off Accession? T^T)

Point is where is the balance of WHM subbing our spells but we can't sub theirs?

[Calatilla]

RDM can't aoe any of its self cast only buffs, that's one of the reasons they`re irrelevant.

[Luvbunny]

If only these so called weather bonus is giving 15% bonus damage to WS skill chain on the correct elements similar to the gorget and obi, and stack with them.... then you can see why you would want SCH to dispense these corresponding weather.

[Einalem]

Fact: SCH seem to like weather more than stat bonuses!
Fact: SCH Definitely want Double Weather!
Fact: Difference between potency in Single to Double weather is 15%

Camate wants specific feedback? Make Stormsurge Buff grant a +3% Weather effect bonus per Merit point.

[Raksha]

If only these so called weather bonus is giving 15% bonus damage to WS skill chain on the correct elements similar to the gorget and obi, and stack with them.... then you can see why you would want SCH to dispense these corresponding weather.



Hey that's a good idea!

allow weather spells to give an +ftp bonus to corresponding WS similar to gorget/belt/mekira-oto.

All of those Reso drks would cream their pants.

[Thorbean]

So double weather is too strong and increased stat bonus is too strong. I'm ok with that, so what about:

Stormsurge: Grants spells matching current storm element +3 MAB per merit.

The stat boost is nice, but the most important part of storms for me is Klimaform + storm for enfeebles against highly resistant mobs. Makes getting an Immunobreak alot easier and lets you focus on other stuff. Wouldn't mind having our AF spell increased to level 50 though. Handing it out to every other job who /SCH is the biggest kick in the nutts IMO.

[Calatilla]

Having Klimaform as /sch is not really any different from getting everything a RDM main has as /rdm at full potency. I agree though since it's sch`s AF spell that it shouldn't be subbable.

But if they do change it to a lvl 50 spell then they should do the same with Convert and Refresh.

[Tesahade]

Having Klimaform as /sch is not really any different from getting everything a RDM main has as /rdm at full potency. I agree though since it's sch`s AF spell that it shouldn't be subbable.

But if they do change it to a lvl 50 spell then they should do the same with Convert and Refresh.

Because convert and refresh are rdm's AF ability and spell? no? there not so there is no correlation between what you're saying and the spell being changed to sch only.

What you're saying would be closer to if all storm spells were raised to 50+ that convert and refresh should see the same
treatment. Klimaform is an "AF spell" because it is rewarded for completing the second quest after the one to unlock sch for most jobs this grants you a job specific weapon (by most i mean all other jobs including rdm). A weapon that no other job can equip simply because they are subbing the job this is where the belief that Sch's AF spell Klimaform should be Sch only. It should have no effect to any other job gettin spells raised for things to be unique to the job this is about a "AF weapon" being job specific rather then sub-job specific

[Raksha]

I dont necessarily think klimaform should be un-subbable.

I do however think that RDM being able to composure it, while SCH can't Perpetuance it is a bit lopsided.

[Merton9999]

Because convert and refresh are rdm's AF ability and spell? no? there not so there is no correlation between what you're saying and the spell being changed to sch only.

What you're saying would be closer to if all storm spells were raised to 50+ that convert and refresh should see the same
treatment. Klimaform is an "AF spell" because it is rewarded for completing the second quest after the one to unlock sch for most jobs this grants you a job specific weapon (by most i mean all other jobs including rdm). A weapon that no other job can equip simply because they are subbing the job this is where the belief that Sch's AF spell Klimaform should be Sch only. It should have no effect to any other job gettin spells raised for things to be unique to the job this is about a "AF weapon" being job specific rather then sub-job specific

Even as psycho SCH main it's never bothered me at all that Klimaform can be subbed. Before this was possible there were two unbroken rules regarding subbable stuff:

1. All spells are subbable
2. No AF1 is subbable

Klimaform had to break one of these rules. Since Klimaform started its life by breaking rules for AF1 by being a spell in the first place, it makes more sense to me that if it were to follow either of the unbroken rules above, it would be the one for spells and not for AF1.

In the end, though, the rules don't mean much. SE has shown they can do whatever they want with subbable stuff. We get /Convert but not /Afflatus. Like Raksha, I'm more annoyed that Composure + Klimaform is allowed but Perpetuance + Klimaform can't happen. It's not that odd in the overall history though. I always thought it was funny that I came on RDM to stun stuff instead of BLM or DRK because RDM had a better specific use of the spell it couldn't use natively.