Voidwatch, the Xbox360 and its issues/bugs.

[Ryotto]

I just did Hahava twice with a full alliance. Only to d/c at 1% on Hahava T4 Voidwatch. I come back a few minutes later, only to find out, half of my alliance disconnected, and we are ALL on Xbox 360. This isn't this first Voidwatch NM this has happened on either. Something needs to be done about this and I would assume the GMs wouldn't be stingy and reimburse us stones/cells? Anyone able to help with this issue or have the same issue on your server? I am rather annoyed with the game because everytime I do Voidwatch for friends, half the alliance disconnects and we lose items.

[Triffle]

Yup, happens every time for all the people on Xbox's on my server. We don't exactly disconnect though. Our Xbox 360s just freeze. Same thing that happens during Besieged if you stay in it too long. Apparently it also freezes if you stay too long in Beaucedine Glaciar [S] and if you try to enter the Aquatic Depopulization in Moblin Maze Mongers.

The only way it seems to kind of stop freezing during Voidwatch is to relog during each fight. As much as it is a pain to do, it does cut down the freezing by like 95%.

[Camate]

Greetings!

Producer Hiromichi Tanaka commented earlier on the Xbox freezing issue during Voidwatch battles and I would like to share it with you all.




I would like to inform you of the current progress with the XBOX360 freezing issue.
I apologize for the inconveniences this has caused.

■Issue
　For FFXI, the necessary renderings in-game are deployed from read memory files and then displayed.

　The effect management program receives requests for necessary in-game effects, requests the effect file, and plays it back at the deployment stage from memory or opens the effect files that are not necessary due to area changes, etc.

Files that are being read consume memory, while files that are opened free up memory.

The necessary structuring for effect rendering is contained in effect files.
Models, sound, sequences, textures, and other things are packed and when organized together it makes it possible to render a single magic spell or other things.

The effect management program has a cache feature so that even if the same magic spell is requested, as long as it has already been deployed from memory, it will re-use the existing memory without reading the file. This feature quickly responds to effect requests and will not use up free memory space, but for other effect requests it needs to read the file and it consumes memory. As the amount of things that need to be read increase, memory consumption increases as well.

Currently these types of effect files are remaining in memory more than we had thought and as a result it is causing termination due to a lack of memory. As a countermeasure to this, we are monitoring the cases where memory consumption is large and adding a process to open these effects that are not being utilized.

With this addition, it will be possible to free up memory and inhibit the things that cause insufficient memory while playing.

■Current Status
　For the hardware specs of the 360, memory that stores textures and memory that stores things other than textures are shared, creating a scenario where there are situations that easily cause insufficient memory. Due to this, when we first confirmed the occurrence of insufficient memory we tried to open the effect textures that were being shared; however, there were cases where program termination would occur during playback and we were forced to change our approach. 　

Also, when adding an open process, we discovered a number of areas for insufficient memory that we did not expect, so we proceeded to handle this as well so that problem would not worsen.

Currently, we changed this so not only the textures, but all effect files in general would be covered by the open process and we are now performing tests in test environments and official client. Unfortunately, even with this, problems related to textures are occurring, and we are currently trying to eliminate the problems one by one.

At any rate, we are working on this with higher priority than other content development, but we are behind on this, diving into this situation where nothing has been fixed. Unfortunately these fixes didn’t make it in time for the version update that just took place; however, the programmers are working their hardest to make it for the March version update.

If there are any significant developments with this issue I will be sure to let you all know.

[Tagrineth]

Translation: Yes, it really is a much more complex issue than people have assumed.

[Kraggy]

'XBox limitations', makes a nice change from 'PS2 limitations' as the excuse.

[wish12oz]

'XBox limitations', makes a nice change from 'PS2 limitations' as the excuse.

wwwwwwwwwww

[Kristal]

I wonder if the same issue is also responsible for the occasional invisible maws, confluxes and npcs on PC.

[Kaisha]

I wonder if the same issue is also responsible for the occasional invisible maws, confluxes and npcs on PC.
That's more a problem with XI's network code. It doesn't handshake on a lot of stuff, so if you miss the packet that says "Load this object up", it never double-checks that you received, so you're forced to either log, or run out of range of the entity to make the server resend it.

At any rate, I'm curious if that problem with the 360 is related to the problem where prolonged visits to a single zone start making FFXI jitter badly non-stop after a few hours. I used to have bad performance late into LS abyssea runs during its primetime, which tend to result in zoning out taking over 15 seconds to commence.

[SpankWustler]

Too Long; Did Not Read Version:

"In an ideal world, we would work on it for another month. Then we would accept our failures and the system's limitations and begin work on an app to help people find dumpsters where still functional PC's are often thrown away.

In this most horrible and balanced of all worlds, we're going to work on it forever and probably never fix it. It will become a black hole in terms of manpower just as it's black hole in terms of processing power. A gaping wound that never heals no matter how it is bandaged. We're still going to try. Sorry, bro."

[Novowels]

what about all the issues for years on PS2 about system freezes when doing cutscene zoning using a special entrance (WG teleporters and Abyssea Maws). constant black screen lockup requiring a full reboot of the system

[Greatguardian]

Translation: Yes, it really is a much more complex issue than people have assumed.

noit'snot.

Their memoized cache was getting too big for the 360 because it happens to share system/graphical RAM (PCs and PS3s do not, and PS2 plays at a lower resolution). The 360 only has 512MB of RAM compared to PS2's 256MB, overall not a huge jump in active memory even though it's generally a more powerful console.

The issue is extremely simple to look at, but extremely difficult to fix because you're basically forced to say "Well. The 360 is straight up too weak to handle all these animations in the memoized cache at the same time. Wat do?"

The easiest solution would be to start lowering the resolution that 360 players can play at, which a reasonable person might understand because, frankly, the console isn't strong enough any more, but unfortunately the majority of players are not reasonable and I'm sure this would never get cleared by management.

Beyond that, they either need to find a way to flush the memo more often (creating more strain on the processor and hard drive, which may not help at all), or reduce the file size of the textures being pulled by the game and stored in the memo without affecting their apparent resolution (Which may not even be a permanent fix).

I do not envy the programmers assigned to this.

[hideka]

so basical he is trying to say that a current generation system cant handle the specs of a PREVIOUS generations game? i smell bull. i think they dont know their ass from their elbow and the result is our current situation.

[Robmelee]

Basically, for the time being until the Development team can produce a viable solution for this Xbox 360 problem for VoidWatch;

us Xbox 360 players that are regularly involved in VoidWatch (multiple-runs) in the same zone will have to either log off and log back in or leave the zone and come back in (if a zone exit is near by) every one or two battles to reduce odds of Xbox 360 console terminations (freezes) by 100% if you choose to re-log/re-zone every battle OR by 85% if you choose to re-log/re-zone every two battles.

Just last night I was doing the VW Jueno T3 "Pil" run x12, and I re-zoned every two battles and never crashed once. But on different runs before when I wasn't zoning or re-logging I would crash most certainly by the 3rd or at the latest 4th battle.

Just FYI; Xbox 360 users going for entire VW Tier clears need not to take these temporary measures since "clear" runs only involves the killing of each mob once and moving on the next zone mob thus clearing the temp memory on Xbox 360 that the Producer just mention.

I hope all that I just said was at all helpful. Peace!

[hideka]

hey, heres an idea. wow did this back almost a decade ago. /reload. produces the effect of "zoning" and reloads you in the same position. this resets any UI bugs, or world bugs client side. wouldnt be hard to do since tractor can already do this.

[hideka]

and i get the same issues on PC, but never crash, just massive stacking lag after the second battle is over.

[Frost]

I'm just really glad they gave actual information, and not the usual brush off.

Thank you for giving us the straight answer SE, and not talking down to us like we're all idiots.

[Greatguardian]

I'm just really glad they gave actual information, and not the usual brush off.

Thank you for giving us the straight answer SE, and not talking down to us like we're all idiots.

No kidding. It's much appreciated.

@Hideka: There's a reason programmers use memoization in the first place.

[HimuraKenshyn]

What if you turn most of the effects off from the config? would that alleviate the issue some what it shouldn't have to load them if not displaying them.

[wish12oz]

hey, heres an idea. wow did this back almost a decade ago. /reload.

I have a better idea, spend $100 and get a PC that runs FFXI better then a PS2 or 360 so SE can discontinue support for them.

[hideka]

i play on PC lol >_>

[Robmelee]

What if you turn most of the effects off from the config? would that alleviate the issue some what it shouldn't have to load them if not displaying them.

I've tried this already as I'm sure a number of other Xbox 360 players have tried this as well, to no avail. At the end of the day it all results to how the system handles its memory dump. PC's generally can handle memory dumps continuously. Problem with the Xbox 360. Like other poster's have indicated the Xbox 360 console is capped at certain number of memory (512MB) and the way its program to dump data to put it simply leaving out the technical jargon, isnt at the acceptable rate that FFXI can reasonably be handled (on a spaming level or JA's, WS's, etc). For example When you have a 18 man alliance constantly spamming there abilities in a tight space on a 360 system thats a constant flow of data coming in and out, in and out. Lets just say that day flow is at number of 1000 and its Threshold level is 512, so if the flow of data (new vs old) can't keep up with the threshold. That always results to systematic crash, thus resulting to Xbox 360 freezes. Sure enough, one can disable all animations but that only delays the inevitable by maybe 1 or 2 more battles.

This is the reason why Xbox 360 players have to zone or re-log (every 1 or 2 VoidWatch! battles) to force a dump of data in the RAM, to avoid 360 system freezes.

The PC does not have this problem because the PC constantly flows the current data both (new and old) and then flushes it right out instantaneously, this process occurs at a much faster rate than Xbox 360's.

Xbox 360 does flush the data, but a a much slower rate, so as more new data comes in and as the old data remains, always results to system crash if not zoning or logging at the apporpriate points in between mutiple runs of VoidWatch! battles.

I sincerely hope the Square Enix Development Team will have sustainable solution to this Xbox 360 problem in the very near future, hopefully by the March 2012 Version Update like the Producer's said as possible projection date.

I play on both PC and Xbox 360, but I prefer playing on 360 for now due to my PC being a crappy one.

[Eric]

All of you should just get a PC and an xbox (or ps2) controller adapter. This is one of the many reasons why I think MMOs shouldn't be made for consoles.

I run FFXI at a 1600x900 resolution(overlay and background) at a constant 29.5 FPS. It looks better and performs better than FFXI for Xbox 360. This is with a 2-year-old 14'' laptop. It's not even a gaming laptop.

It's not out of the question to recommend upgrading your PC. Not only will you be able to play FFXI on it, but it will do better at handling your everyday computer needs.

EDIT: OH GOD I just tried playing FFXI on xbox and there was already a big framerate drop just stepping outside from my mog house into port windurst. The graphics quality was terrible too.

I don't see how anyone would prefer this to hooking a PC up to a TV via HDMI.

[Camate]

Greetings!

There was another update from Yoji Fujito in regards to the Xbox 360 freezing issue during Voidwatch that I would like to share with you all.



Thank you very much for your patience.
I’d like to report that we are in our final adjustment phase for the program fixes of the areas that are causing the freezing issue.

Currently, we’ve run our tests and the edited program is displaying the behavior that we envisioned.
However, there are still some bugs that are left, similar to what was expressed in Producer Tanaka’s previous comment.

We are at the point where we would really like to prepare a Xbox 360 version test server and have everyone check this out, but the test server is setup for the Windows versions and it is not possible.
Since the Xbox 360 version functions with a system that is similar to the Windows version, we will apply the same treatment to the Windows version and monitor the situation. Since the Windows version itself has a large amount of effects that consume a lot of memory, this should also lighten this up as well.
Also, this current issue has to do with effect textures, so it will be possible to fix this without affecting the specs if this bug occurs.

We would really appreciate it if everyone who tests the game on the test server could keep an eye out for this and send in reports.

Things to observe:
All effects. Below are examples:

Effects when players use weapon skills, magic, and abilities
Effects when enemies use their abilities
Effects displayed in cut scenes
Effects from item and equipment usage


What to look for:


Texture glitches
Freezing (effect data corruption or editing program bug)


In the case that any of the above problems occur, please let us know with a detailed bug report what happened and in what case it happened.

Also, once everything is running properly on the test server we will applying the edit program to a version update in the near future.

Thank you all very much for your cooperation and support.

[saevel]

That's more a problem with XI's network code. It doesn't handshake on a lot of stuff, so if you miss the packet that says "Load this object up", it never double-checks that you received, so you're forced to either log, or run out of range of the entity to make the server resend it.

At any rate, I'm curious if that problem with the 360 is related to the problem where prolonged visits to a single zone start making FFXI jitter badly non-stop after a few hours. I used to have bad performance late into LS abyssea runs during its primetime, which tend to result in zoning out taking over 15 seconds to commence.

FFXI use's UDP on ports 50000+ to communicate with the world servers. UDP by it's nature is state-less, meaning no packet acknowledgement or session information. It also happens to be faster by requiring less processing and having less administrative overhead. UDP's used for things where missing packets won't result in a failure, things like VoIP and VTC connections.

[Kaisha]

Greetings!

There was another update from Yoji Fujito in regards to the Xbox 360 freezing issue during Voidwatch that I would like to share with you all.
I'm curious if this 'fix' addresses one of the ancient bugs I've seen from time to time, where a manticore's breath attack will come out as a series of glitched looking squares.

Also curious if a byproduct of it will reduce severe lag on special effects like 10+ people smacking a mob when it has a spikes effect up.


FFXI use's UDP on ports 50000+ to communicate with the world servers. UDP by it's nature is state-less, meaning no packet acknowledgement or session information. It also happens to be faster by requiring less processing and having less administrative overhead. UDP's used for things where missing packets won't result in a failure, things like VoIP and VTC connections.
I know how UDP operates, but it doesn't excuse that there's zero checks done regularly to ensure all entities in the area are as expected.

[Sarick]

I know how UDP operates, but it doesn't excuse that there's zero checks done regularly to ensure all entities in the area are as expected.

This could be helped if SE had a /resend for zone data.

[saevel]

I know how UDP operates, but it doesn't excuse that there's zero checks done regularly to ensure all entities in the area are as expected.

Umm apparently you don't. The entire purpose of UDP is fire and forget, if data is lost ohh well it'll be sent again eventually. If the UDP datagram is lost, then there is on way for the client to know it didn't receive it and thus ask for it again. It's session-less, there is no SYN/ACK nor FIN packets to indicate the opening and closing of connections, the game programmers have to incorporate that themselves. Using some form of packet checking would defeat the entire purpose of UDP, might as well use TCP and let the network handle lost packets for you.

In short, it's impossible for a client to check data it doesn't know about. As far as it's concerned those aren't supposed to be there because the server hasn't told it that they are there.

[Camate]

Howdy!

I’d just like to give another update on the status of the Xbox 360 freeze issue.
We have performed tests with the editing program applied to the Windows version and a number of minute problems have been eliminated. As such, we will be implementing the current editing program into the game during this month’s version update.

We would like to keep a close watch on this even after the version update, so if you see any problems, please be sure to let us know!

[Duzell]

Howdy!

I’d just like to give another update on the status of the Xbox 360 freeze issue.
We have performed tests with the editing program applied to the Windows version and a number of minute problems have been eliminated. As such, we will be implementing the current editing program into the game during this month’s version update.

We would like to keep a close watch on this even after the version update, so if you see any problems, please be sure to let us know!

I know mirosoft is not going to allow you to set up a test server since there still upset FFXI doesnt need gold membership, but are the dev team able to set up 360s locally and hook them directly into the test server for testing purposes or are the poor hapless 360 users guniee pigs for each update and they go live without testing on every platform?

[Kraggy]

I know mirosoft is not going to allow you to set up a test server since there still upset FFXI doesnt need gold membership, but are the dev team able to set up 360s locally and hook them directly into the test server for testing purposes or are the poor hapless 360 users guniee pigs for each update and they go live without testing on every platform?
You seem to be equating the publicly available Test Server and internal QA testing. M$'s dislike of the former doesn't mean the latter doesn't exist.

[Mirabelle]

Howdy!

I’d just like to give another update on the status of the Xbox 360 freeze issue.
We have performed tests with the editing program applied to the Windows version and a number of minute problems have been eliminated. As such, we will be implementing the current editing program into the game during this month’s version update.

We would like to keep a close watch on this even after the version update, so if you see any problems, please be sure to let us know!

Are these changes supposed to fix the problem? Or just some other XBOX issues like the delay in loading new zones?

[Komachii]

so, anyone did vw on xbox since update?

[Camate]

Greetings!

With the version update that just took place the other day, countermeasures have been implemented for the issue where the Xbox360 would freeze due to many in-game effects going off.

Regarding the issue where the game freezes for a short period of time upon zone change, this is due to the loading of game data from local resources. In the case the freeze issue does not resolve after a certain period of time, we believe it may be due to another cause, so please send us the details if you encounter this.
(The issue where the game freezes for a short period of time also occurs in the Windows version.)

On a side note, in regards to the issue where the light from the lantern shines directly on the ground, which has been occurring after the March version update, the QA team has confirmed this issue under testing environments. We are working on this matter to have it resolved and will give an update once there is progress. Thank you for your patience and we apologize for any inconveniences these issues may cause.
(This issue also occurs in the Windows version)

[Dragoy]

And to balance that, they broke the game for Linux users!

I know that it is not a supported Operating System for the game but I just wanted to mention it here as well. ^^


--waist-deep-debugging

[Fmaxgluttony]

I've done VW on 360 since the update i haven't frozen in any battle can spam all fight's without worry now and just to fully test i've dropped all filters it was laggy but definitely they fixed the 360 version of VW.

[Dragoy]

I've done VW on 360 since the update i haven't frozen in any battle can spam all fight's without worry now and just to fully test i've dropped all filters it was laggy but definitely they fixed the 360 version of VW.
Have you tried other things it had issues with, namely Besieged?

[Helel]

WHY MUST THE LANTERN SHINE ON THE GROUND.

[Fmaxgluttony]

no i haven't tried besieged.

[Dragoy]

no i haven't tried besieged.
Okipoki.

The fixes likely have no effect on that judging from what they have told us, but I was still wondering. ^^

[Linku]

They broke the game for Linux users!

Yep, very annoying.

[Fmaxgluttony]

Just finished a besieged didn't freeze at all and i was full attacking no hiding by AH so seems fixed to me, do note it is still very laggy XD.