Enmity

[Dale]

I have seen quite a few posts thus far pertaining to Enmity challenges, and some posters even going so far as to suggest the paladin should have his enmity output doubled to make them more viable tanks. Now with this I have an issue, and I will explain why.

One of the key differences between a good player and a bad player is the ability to manage their enmity. This is a big part to the challenge of this game - and the fact an effective damage dealer can rip hate off the Paladin is the way it should be. It makes the battle more interesting and thought-provoking. If the Paladin could simply keep hate all the time easily no matter what the other members of the party did the game's battle system would suffer greatly as a result.

Example: state of point if a Dragoon goes nuts at the beginning of a Nm fight spamming weapon skills and dies because of it, that is the way it should be and is not the fault of the Paladin, and buffs should not be giving to the Paladin to prevent this from happening either, else many fights would turn into bland "spam the most damage you can as quick as you can till its dead" monotony This would be dull and way too easy.

Paladins need to learn to stop blaming themselves with damage dealers draw enmity and get themselves killed, because 9 times out of 10 it's usually not the paladin's fault, but the dead guy's because he took a bigger bite then he could chew.

[Bilonn]

I agree fully with this.
It's like I've said:

A Paladin -should- be the first one to die if things fail out. However, if it's some DD's fault for starting opening on the mob at 100% health with every hate-gaining move he has available, there is no way I'm going to be able to save him, and I'm not going to worry about it. Futhermore, if I were to get "why didn't you tank it off me", I'll tell them why, and if they don't like it, I can find other people who know how a party operates to join up with. (In fact, this is one reason why I prefer to keep to parties with LS members only...)

I know how it works from both sides. That's even why, as I'm working on Samurai now, I KNOW not to open against the mob with a WS. I wait for a short while, letting the tank take control, and -then- I open my can of whoop-ass on them. Only time I purposefully went in and pulled max hate was when it was [Last Boss] for me that day, and I burned my 2hr and chained the sucker--but everyone, even the healers, knew I was going to do that before I did it.

Know your job and how it works--but know how the other jobs have to work too! A tank can't work right if the healer spams high-tier cures, if the mages blast nukes, or if the DDs start skillchains too soon!

[Kirth]

That's not the reason people are suggesting enmity changes. It's because there currently is no need for Paladins and there need to be incentives for utilizing the class in group situations. It's not just enmity changes either; people are just brainstorming up some suggestions for creating a niche/role for Paladin in the future.

[JagerForrester]

Exp parties have leaned towards zerging everything because it's possible to kill this way and live through it.
And NMs have been shadow tanked more often than blood tanked. Because sooner or later, a healer runs out of MP to heal blood tanks and the DDs that get hit with AoEs.

The idea of slowing down to keep control of a monster or taking damage is incomprehensible in FFXI's change of gameplay for the community. Beating things down while taking little to no damage as possible is everyone's mindset. Someday I hope PLD will shine again where monsters will be forced to be blood tanked because shadows would disappear if hit by a monster that can see through Utsusemi and/or Seigan.

[Rieul]

The main reason to stack Enmity atm (imho, of course) is due to the HIGH amount of mobs with hate-resetting moves in Abyssea.
So even if you were doing everything you possibly could and the mob uses a TP move that resets your CE and VE to 0…
You better hope you have some Serious Enmity to stack on that Flash or you and your PT are outta luck. :eek:
I think if there were less mobs that could reset enmity at the blink of an eye PLD would be more viable then as a Main Tank again. I suppose it is how it should be however and PLD has been reduced to a puller/DD/backup_healer for the time being.

[Mordanthos]

That's not the reason people are suggesting enmity changes. It's because there currently is no need for Paladins and there need to be incentives for utilizing the class in group situations. It's not just enmity changes either; people are just brainstorming up some suggestions for creating a niche/role for Paladin in the future.

Even if the player base believes that PLD has no use in NM fights, it doesn't completely eliminate the fact that u can still use a PLD as a great tank anyways, whether its dying slow or not, its going to die anyways. No one said just because we dont "need" paladins anymore we just arent going to use them. I'm positive if you shouted in Jeuno to start an NM camp session for seals on your paladin, you could still easily get a group going to tank it, ive had people send me tells to come tank stuff. PLD isnt a dead class, they tank just fine, just open your mouth in town and "start" the group, you are afterall, suppose to be the leader of the group, so show some initiative and start your own group. Yourhealer will be happy to have a PLD as there tank since they have less MP consumption to heal you anyways in the long run.

[Nepharite]

Even if the player base believes that PLD has no use in NM fights, it doesn't completely eliminate the fact that u can still use a PLD as a great tank anyways, whether its dying slow or not, its going to die anyways. No one said just because we dont "need" paladins anymore we just arent going to use them. I'm positive if you shouted in Jeuno to start an NM camp session for seals on your paladin, you could still easily get a group going to tank it, ive had people send me tells to come tank stuff. PLD isnt a dead class, they tank just fine, just open your mouth in town and "start" the group, you are afterall, suppose to be the leader of the group, so show some initiative and start your own group. Yourhealer will be happy to have a PLD as there tank since they have less MP consumption to heal you anyways in the long run.

Yes pld can tank fine, its just not as effective as other tanks.
A mnk can cap ve/ce much faster than a pld could ever hope of doing. Plus it has a lot more survivability than a pld.
So basically mnk beats out pld on the 2 most important parts. (gaining/keeping hate and staying alive)

edit. Also to those saying DD should manage their dd output to not draw hate is for pld tanking, but if you have a dd tank then that usually allows the other dd to go all out. Its just more effective.

[Anethia]

I had the idea that paladin should either have a flash 2 or a native provoke ability. This would allow paladins to make use of other subjob options besides warrior for hate management and damage mitigation.

My other idea was in regards to /nin. This seems to be the sub of choice for pretty much any situation now. That being said nin is the only job I can really think of that is nerfed the most when subbed, with yonin and innin being rendered totally unusable by any other job/nin. They are great hate management tools and should be made available to be used by other jobs when subbing nin.

A lot of people will cry "oh no you can't do that, it'll make nin useless and blah blah blah". Not the way I see it. Nin already gets 4 ni shadows and 3 ichi shadows. 5/4 if they have the +1/2 af3 feet and they also get migawari ichi. Not only that but have some of the highest Eva in game. My suggestion is to make the abilities like /Sam seigan and hasso. the positive effects on those when /Sam are only half that of a full sam while the negative effects on recast timers are the same as a full Sam. In other words yonin and innins positive effects would only be half that of a full nin, while the negatives will be full strength.

At that point it can be up to the paladin to use a shield for extra defense, or offhand a sword for extra damage. Though paladin/nin will still only have 3/3 shadows per utsu ni and ichi and still be as evasive as brick wall.

[JagerForrester]

evasive as a brick wall.
I laughed.

But I do agree PLDs should get provoke, maybe not at the time Wars get it or when PLDs get it when subbing, but somewhere when all PLDs ever sub WAR for is for provoke.

[Runespider]

There are loads of ways to fix pld if Square really wanted to.

The emnity idea would work, allowing cures to exceed the current cap, dissallowing any DD tanking (since damage done by any source would be unable to exceed the old cap and mages curing you would be killed) and giving pld a JA that allows it to also exceed the cap (give it to nin too but using this JA would greatly nerf its DD capability equalising it to pld as a tank). So like, any form of damage can go upto the current 100% cap at best, but cures, pld&nin using the special JA can take it upto 150%. Every job in the game should not be able to cap hate as they currently can.

Another way is to make new endgame mobs that simply don't take damage well at all under any circumstances and have lots of conal aoe moves(or normal moves being conal aoe, like iron giants), very high -damage taken and -magic dmg (lower hp to make the fight lengths about the same). In this way holding hate via damage simply won't work and again cures would exceed a DD's ability to tank anything at all. Specific tanks would be the only jobs able to hold hate while DD pick away at it. Mobs like this of course would also need to go into hyper rage mode doing massive unstunnable aoes if their hp bar drops too quick (to stop zergs and make the fight more tactical).

Lastly make all endgame mobs have high regain and lots of aoe moves, also make them rage within a fairly short amount of time to force you to put a lot of DD on it. Now give pld spells which give defferent types of auras, ie -50%+ damage taken to everyone within 10 distance of the pld. Pld with -dmg taken aura that covers all the DD allows you to take the mob down with lots of DD on it, also the mobs should have regular stages where it cannot be damaged every 5-10% hp taken aswell as -dmg to ranged attacks to stop zerging or getting around the need for auras.

The current hate system is stupid and terrible, makes no sense the hate system does not give benefits and ways to exceed current limits to it's tanking classes. Laughable design that a powerful DD can make a paladin useless and unable under any means to get hate off them lol

[Cream_Soda]

emnity idea would work, allowing cures to exceed the current cap, dissallowing any DD tanking (since damage done by any source would be unable to exceed the old cap and mages curing you would be killed) and giving pld a JA that allows it to also exceed the cap (give it to nin too but using this JA would greatly nerf its DD capability equalising it to pld as a tank). So like, any form of damage can go upto the current 100% cap at best, but cures, pld&nin using the special JA can take it upto 150%. Every job in the game should not be able to cap hate as they currently can.Blu and rdm would still be able to tank better than PLD w/ this set up.


Another way is to make new endgame mobs that simply don't take damage well at all under any circumstances and have lots of conal aoe moves(or normal moves being conal aoe, like iron giants), very high -damage taken and -magic dmg (lower hp to make the fight lengths about the same). In this way holding hate via damage simply won't work and again cures would exceed a DD's ability to tank anything at all. Specific tanks would be the only jobs able to hold hate while DD pick away at it. Mobs like this of course would also need to go into hyper rage mode doing massive unstunnable aoes if their hp bar drops too quick (to stop zergs and make the fight more tactical).Same thing applies, a rdm or blu would be a better tank here than PLD


Lastly make all endgame mobs have high regain and lots of aoe moves, also make them rage within a fairly short amount of time to force you to put a lot of DD on it. Now give pld spells which give defferent types of auras, ie -50%+ damage taken to everyone within 10 distance of the pld. Pld with -dmg taken aura that covers all the DD allows you to take the mob down with lots of DD on it, also the mobs should have regular stages where it cannot be damaged every 5-10% hp taken aswell as -dmg to ranged attacks to stop zerging or getting around the need for auras.DT caps at 50% anyways, any decent geared DD would hardly be affected by this, if at all.

All horrible ideas.

[hiko]

fix CE/VE modifier for damage dealt, give PLD an enmity boost trait (doesn't count in enmity+ cap, also affect VE decay), a damage resistance trait (doesnt count in DT- cap)

[Greever]

funny thing is, pre lvl cap update, I could easily pull hate from any pld just melee'in with most of my DD's lol, not just mnk. A DD restraining itself has nothing to do with how a pld holds hate. Everyone caps out the same sooner or later.

TBH, pld isent a viable tank for anything that can be blink tanked. Other jobs just do it better. Blood tanking, other jobs just do it better lol. Holding hate, other jobs just do it better lol.

Raising enmity cap just for pld means u cap out and just stand there, u wont have much to do. Takes out a whole aspect of the game imo. pld caps hate, cure bomb pld, no risk of deathga/wipeage since no one can get hate off the pld. Would be nice to be able to go balls to the wall with certian jobs and not risk death. But it wont be the fix cause SE wont do it. Only way to make pld the #1 tank, is to make it a top teir DD in the game lol

Dont say...but outside of abyssea. Outside of abyssea, any DD is a better tank with /nin. If mob is squishy, pld cant cap hate. If mob is strong, DD's will cap hate just as fast as pld and be able to keep up because their DoT is not nearly as good as any DD. If ur not getting hit ur not curing, if ur curing the DD that pulled hate ur helping him survive as he continues to tank lol.

[Dale]

funny thing is, pre lvl cap update, I could easily pull hate from any pld just melee'in with most of my DD's lol, not just mnk. A DD restraining itself has nothing to do with how a pld holds hate. Everyone caps out the same sooner or later.

TBH, pld isent a viable tank for anything that can be blink tanked. Other jobs just do it better. Blood tanking, other jobs just do it better lol. Holding hate, other jobs just do it better lol.

Raising enmity cap just for pld means u cap out and just stand there, u wont have much to do. Takes out a whole aspect of the game imo. pld caps hate, cure bomb pld, no risk of deathga/wipeage since no one can get hate off the pld. Would be nice to be able to go balls to the wall with certian jobs and not risk death. But it wont be the fix cause SE wont do it. Only way to make pld the #1 tank, is to make it a top teir DD in the game lol

Dont say...but outside of abyssea. Outside of abyssea, any DD is a better tank with /nin. If mob is squishy, pld cant cap hate. If mob is strong, DD's will cap hate just as fast as pld and be able to keep up because their DoT is not nearly as good as any DD. If ur not getting hit ur not curing, if ur curing the DD that pulled hate ur helping him survive as he continues to tank lol.

A DD restraining itself deffinitely has an impact on how well a Paladin can hold hate, especially toward the beginning of a fight. So i just disagree with you there.

I also disagree with you that blink/tanks just totally overshadow paladins. On certain fights Blink Tanks are better, on others Paladins are better. Paladin is the master of heal/tanking, and i've already tanked several Nms in abyssea without any healing support and no atma, something a blink tank probably coudn't have pulled off, or if it did, would have been very dangerous. It would be stupid if we were the best tank on everything anyway. It just depends on the situation and what you are up against.

A lot of paladins seem to just want to be the number 1 best tank against everything. That's not going to happen, and to be honest, it shouldn't. Monks need their day in the sun too - and frankly I'm glad to see so many more viable tanks in abyssea. MMOs have a tendancy to become way too dd heavy and overly reliant on one or two tank jobs. IMHO any melee should be able to tank.

A Paladin can do so much more than tank anyway. He can DD well (I don't care what anyone says, they can). They can heal well, especially if they use a staff for spirit taker. They can even play an effective support role with flash and cover. There is nothing wrong with this job, and there is plenty of stuff you can do if you find yourself in a situation where you aren't the best tank present.

But all that being said, I'm not against seeing some buffs :) And i woudn't mind seeing Paladins get their own provoke or an upgrade to the flash spell, as long as it didn't allow them to keep the enemy's attention easily no matter what everyone else did.

[Zagen]

A DD restraining itself deffinitely has an impact on how well a Paladin can hold hate, especially toward the beginning of a fight. So i just disagree with you there.

You're missing what others are saying about MNK. There isn't a need for other DDs to restrain themselves when the MNK tank isn't restraining themselves because they will keep hate capped or recap it relatively quickly when compared to PLD.

Also why does everyone keep saying "PLD needs Provoke"? it was a crappy way to get hate before Abyssea it is still a crappy way to get hate now. I mean why was PLD/NIN the way to tank things if zerging was out of the question pre-Abyssea? Oh that's right shadow's lowered hate loss > provoke's hate gain.

[Runespider]

Blu and rdm would still be able to tank better than PLD.

You could easily find ways to stop both of those jobs tanking(although i see nothing wrong with having 3-4 tanks as opposed to everything can tank, as it is), ie. give mobs conal tp moves or auras that have horribly dibilitating unremovable debuffs (slow2, silence, massive mp draining disease etc) which they could then make pld and nin immune to via new JA. Ultimately Square would use their own ideas anyway so spending too much thought or arguing specific ideas as a player is pointless, they were just to show a few ideas of things that could be done to show it's not impossible, they could make up proper fixes (being paid to do this stuff and all).

When I mention this stuff of course I mean new proper raid mobs, HNM or bigger events. Not abyssea fluff which is now finished and done.

Personally I would like to see blood tanking back, fix defence etc but they probably won't do that either.

[Martel]

The thing that always worried me when people say things like, "Fix def/VIT", is that SE will actually do it. And do it badly.

Any changes to such a fundamental function would end up being global. Meaning, sure, our def matters now. But the mobs def really, really matters now, lol. And howls of rage were heard across the world as people's DD output went down the drain.

I'm sure people will say something like, "But they'd only do it to PLD". This is SE. Remember the 2 hander update? When all the 2H type mobs(spiders, ohgod, drg mobs, etc) started tearing people to shreds? Somehow, I doubt giving 2H mobs a boost was needed to balance player dual wield vs 2H weapons. Or maybe the mamool DRGs were pissed at the NINs?

But really, it was necessary to change monster mechanics as well, because it was a change to a fundamental DMG mechanic. Like DEF and VIT. Now... they might manage to limit it to PLD mobs. Then we'd just have some crazy tough PLD mobs.

But hey, if they did "fix" def/vit, then everyone would be doing terrible damage. Then PLD could tank with flash and cure kits again. Ahh, the not-so-good ol' days.

[Greever]

A DD restraining itself deffinitely has an impact on how well a Paladin can hold hate, especially toward the beginning of a fight. So i just disagree with you there.

I also disagree with you that blink/tanks just totally overshadow paladins. On certain fights Blink Tanks are better, on others Paladins are better. Paladin is the master of heal/tanking, and i've already tanked several Nms in abyssea without any healing support and no atma, something a blink tank probably coudn't have pulled off, or if it did, would have been very dangerous. It would be stupid if we were the best tank on everything anyway. It just depends on the situation and what you are up against.

A lot of paladins seem to just want to be the number 1 best tank against everything. That's not going to happen, and to be honest, it shouldn't. Monks need their day in the sun too - and frankly I'm glad to see so many more viable tanks in abyssea. MMOs have a tendancy to become way too dd heavy and overly reliant on one or two tank jobs. IMHO any melee should be able to tank.

A Paladin can do so much more than tank anyway. He can DD well (I don't care what anyone says, they can). They can heal well, especially if they use a staff for spirit taker. They can even play an effective support role with flash and cover. There is nothing wrong with this job, and there is plenty of stuff you can do if you find yourself in a situation where you aren't the best tank present.

But all that being said, I'm not against seeing some buffs :) And i woudn't mind seeing Paladins get their own provoke or an upgrade to the flash spell, as long as it didn't allow them to keep the enemy's attention easily no matter what everyone else did.

Its hard to restrain urself from just melee'in lol.

There were very few mobs that could be blood tanked that mattered pre-abyssea. In those cases usually /rdm could be used. But also in those cases RDM and or Blu could be better at it. And back in the day if u were using a pld tank for anything that mattered, it was /nin. Can u name one relevent NM that would be blood tanked, and which subjob was prefered? in any of those cases if its /rdm, a main rdm or blu could do it better.

Dont get me wrong, I used to love pld. played it for a long time. But as time progressed, I found that pld dosent have a nich compared to other jobs. Basically any job can do what a pld can with the same buffs (marches/haste/pro/shell/healing support). Pld had and still has no singular place in the game since its designed role (pld was designed to tank) can be filled by so many other jobs. It kinda makes me think of it as the frankenstien monster of the game lol. Its not a mage and its not a DD, its somewhere inbetween (yes pld can DD...other jobs just do it better lol).

Yes soloing with pld is great, ive solo'd things at 75 with pld/dnc that i would only try on rdm (only reason i did it on pld is because of attonement to make the fight faster lol).

As it stands, plds new motto should be "...other jobs just do it better"

[Greever]

You could easily find ways to stop both of those jobs tanking(although i see nothing wrong with having 3-4 tanks as opposed to everything can tank, as it is), ie. give mobs conal tp moves or auras that have horribly dibilitating unremovable debuffs (slow2, silence, massive mp draining disease etc) which they could then make pld and nin immune to via new JA. Ultimately Square would use their own ideas anyway so spending too much thought or arguing specific ideas as a player is pointless, they were just to show a few ideas of things that could be done to show it's not impossible, they could make up proper fixes (being paid to do this stuff and all).

When I mention this stuff of course I mean new proper raid mobs, HNM or bigger events. Not abyssea fluff which is now finished and done.

Personally I would like to see blood tanking back, fix defence etc but they probably won't do that either.

Why go through such extream measures to make 1 job relevent?

[Martel]

Can you name one relevant* NM that would be blood tanked, and which subjob was preferred? In any of those cases if its /rdm, a main rdm or blu could do it better.
*the above quote was edited for spelling and punctuation*

I used to do Yilbegan as PLD/BLU. Fun mob. Gave me mad parry skill ups. Now, I don't know that Blu or RDM couldn't tank him better. I've never seen either of them try it. But I do have to wonder how a RDM would even keep hate. All the hate spells got nerfed. I guess try some Chant spam? Yilbegan was really tough defensively at 75, but I guess we'd just have to see about now.

[Dale]

Its hard to restrain urself from just melee'in lol.

There were very few mobs that could be blood tanked that mattered pre-abyssea. In those cases usually /rdm could be used. But also in those cases RDM and or Blu could be better at it. And back in the day if u were using a pld tank for anything that mattered, it was /nin. Can u name one relevent NM that would be blood tanked, and which subjob was prefered? in any of those cases if its /rdm, a main rdm or blu could do it better.

Dont get me wrong, I used to love pld. played it for a long time. But as time progressed, I found that pld dosent have a nich compared to other jobs. Basically any job can do what a pld can with the same buffs (marches/haste/pro/shell/healing support). Pld had and still has no singular place in the game since its designed role (pld was designed to tank) can be filled by so many other jobs. It kinda makes me think of it as the frankenstien monster of the game lol. Its not a mage and its not a DD, its somewhere inbetween (yes pld can DD...other jobs just do it better lol).

Yes soloing with pld is great, ive solo'd things at 75 with pld/dnc that i would only try on rdm (only reason i did it on pld is because of attonement to make the fight faster lol).

As it stands, plds new motto should be "...other jobs just do it better"

I just haven't seen this in my experiences. Now things may change once strong atma is attained or something, but I would match up my tanking against any blink tank i've ever played with on the vast majority of things. I dont' think they overshadow me at all, and i'm more self-sufficient and require much less support - especially later on in the game when Paladin really starts to impress.

Now I will admit there are some bosses who have annoying moves that make blink tanking prefered - such as a NM with enpetrify or something like that. In a situation like that, yes - i will agree a blink tank is better. But from my own experiences, I compete just fine as a viable tank and believe paladins do have the edge against most things. With the addition of phalanx alone this job has easily grown 3 times stronger than it ever was, and that's not even counting the numerous other buffs they have gotten.

Also, a lot of people on this forum underestimate the amount of enmity heals create. Cure 4 spam makes a lot more enmity than most dd's are capable of, especially if you team that up with flash and some enmity gear. Paladins are hate mongers - and I just don't see why so many on this forum act like Paladins are at the bottom of the tanking pool. I just haven't see this, and I'm more than satisified with my paladin's performance. It is the best its' been since I have started playing this game.

I"d love to agree with my fellow paladins and say we desperately need huge buffs. But if I did would be for selfish dishonest reasons. I really do feel this job is pretty incredible right now, and I haven't even started getting the powerful atma yet.

[Greatguardian]

Cure spam is some of the most MP-Inefficient Enmity gain in the entire game. Blood tanking also means your CE is getting smashed to bits every time you take a hit, lowering your overall enmity levels.

[Dale]

Cure spam is some of the most MP-Inefficient Enmity gain in the entire game. Blood tanking also means your CE is getting smashed to bits every time you take a hit, lowering your overall enmity levels.

Well I don't want to get into too much detail on this - but there are multiple ways to recover and conserve mp on this game, and perhaps that is where Paladins dissapointed with their abilities should instead focus on. It is quite effective at creating tons of hate.

The Paladin's real strength has always been his ability to heal and tank, and IMHO that is where players should put their focus on if they want to maximize the potential of their paladin.

If you just want to focus on holding threat and doing damage while other people keep you alive then there are better job options out there for that kind of play - monk being among them.

[Greatguardian]

You don't need to explain anything. Go ahead and work under the assumption I know all there is to know about the PLD job class. I can still tell you that cure cheating in this day and age is generally a waste of both time and MP. You gain significantly more Enmity overall by TP'ing and using your accumulated TP to launch Chant du Cygne (It should always outdamage Sanguine/Atonement) than you would interrupting your attack rounds for unnecessary cures.

I'm not saying a PLD shouldn't cure itself if it takes damage, but you are much better off avoiding taking damage in the first place (Utsusemi) and only curing when you actually do take damage (or someone else does). Blood tanking is only viable when you can realistically reduce the damage you take to the point where you are producing more average Enmity per second than you lose by taking damage.

[Dale]

You don't need to explain anything. Go ahead and work under the assumption I know all there is to know about the PLD job class. I can still tell you that cure cheating in this day and age is generally a waste of both time and MP. You gain significantly more Enmity overall by TP'ing and using your accumulated TP to launch Chant du Cygne (It should always outdamage Sanguine/Atonement) than you would interrupting your attack rounds for unnecessary cures.

I'm not saying a PLD shouldn't cure itself if it takes damage, but you are much better off avoiding taking damage in the first place (Utsusemi) and only curing when you actually do take damage (or someone else does). Blood tanking is only viable when you can realistically reduce the damage you take to the point where you are producing more average Enmity per second than you lose by taking damage.

You are missing my point.

My point is if you are wanting to focus on a job that concentrates on doing high damage and using utsusemi to avoid taking damage you are better off playing a different job. Paladin is not built to be a high-damaging ninja-like class, and we have too many people who are trying to turn the Paladin job into something it isn't.

If you feel healing is a waste of mp and don't like the heal/tank concept, then Paladin isn't the job for you, and that is most likely the source for your discontent.

Paladins are designed to be healers that tank. That is the whole concept behind the job. If you want to be a tank who relies on high damage and shadows to get the job done, there are other jobs better suited for it.

[Martel]

You are missing my point.

My point is if you are wanting to focus on a job that concentrates on doing high damage and using utsusemi to avoid taking damage you are better off playing a different job. Paladin is not built to be a high-damaging ninja-like class, and we have too many people who are trying to turn the Paladin job into something it isn't

Well, unfortunately, about the only way to make PLD reasonably useful at the moment, is to make it "something it isn't". And SE doesn't seem to mind the idea either, considering the delightful amount of excellent DD stats on our AF3.


If you feel healing is a waste of mp and don't like the heal/tank concept, then Paladin isn't the job for you, and that is most likely the source for your discontent.

He didn't say that curing was a waste of mp. He said the curing for enmity was a waste of mp and time. And he's right. It is. The CE modifier for cure enmity has been declining since lvl one. And it hasn't stopped. Only slowed in its rate of decrease. The more levels we gain, the worse curing becomes as an enmity tool.

Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

Notice the difference?

Melee dmg is twice as effective in the first place, is gained just sitting there hitting the mob, and doesn't cost mp. But, of course, no PLD would cure in +0 enmity, so lets work with that.

500 cure with +50 enmity, 468 CE.

Now, my TP build has +20 enmity in it(just as a side effect of DD stats, I'm not stacking enmity for DD, lol), so lets factor that into the melee dmg.

500 dmg +20 enmity, 750 CE. 468 vs 750. And one of these makes the mob dead sooner. And you can easily do 500 dmg in a single attack round, with good DD atmas and gear.

Not to mention, as soon as I get 100% TP and throw out a nice 3k'ish chant, we're looking at a spike of 3750 CE, and instantly capped VE. And if we were near the start of that fight, I'd throw up sentinel before that chant, putting it at 7500 CE. Out of a 10k CE cap...

Curing has its place. As a survival tool. And cure kits have their place, as a situational tool(unmelee'able/flying mob, don't kill it yet!, etc.) But DMG as a hate tool is vastly superior.


Paladins are designed to be healers that tank. That is the whole concept behind the job. If you want to be a tank who relies on high damage and shadows to get the job done, there are other jobs better suited for it.

Back in 2004, certainly. But the game has changed. Change with it, or be left behind. Unless SE makes drastic changes to PLD or the game itself, DD style, and often /nin, is the reality of the effective PLD. And if SE does make those changes, we will study them, and change with them. Will you?


then Paladin isn't the job for you

I would say, based on his accurate understanding of the current PLD, that PLD certainly is the job for him.

[Dale]

Well, unfortunately, about the only way to make PLD reasonably useful at the moment, is to make it "something it isn't". And SE doesn't seem to mind the idea either, considering the delightful amount of excellent DD stats on our AF3.


He didn't say that curing was a waste of mp. He said the curing for enmity was a waste of mp and time. And he's right. It is. The CE modifier for cure enmity has been declining since lvl one. And it hasn't stopped. Only slowed in its rate of decrease. The more levels we gain, the worse curing becomes as an enmity tool.

Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

Notice the difference?

Melee dmg is twice as effective in the first place, is gained just sitting there hitting the mob, and doesn't cost mp. But, of course, no PLD would cure in +0 enmity, so lets work with that.

500 cure with +50 enmity, 468 CE.

Now, my TP build has +20 enmity in it(just as a side effect of DD stats, I'm not stacking enmity for DD, lol), so lets factor that into the melee dmg.

500 dmg +20 enmity, 750 CE. 468 vs 750. And one of these makes the mob dead sooner. And you can easily do 500 dmg in a single attack round, with good DD atmas and gear.

Not to mention, as soon as I get 100% TP and throw out a nice 3k'ish chant, we're looking at a spike of 3750 CE, and instantly capped VE. And if we were near the start of that fight, I'd throw up sentinel before that chant, putting it at 7500 CE. Out of a 10k CE cap...

Curing has its place. As a survival tool. And cure kits have their place, as a situational tool(unmelee'able/flying mob, don't kill it yet!, etc.) But DMG as a hate tool is vastly superior.



Back in 2004, certainly. But the game has changed. Change with it, or be left behind. Unless SE makes drastic changes to PLD or the game itself, DD style, and often /nin, is the reality of the effective PLD. And if SE does make those changes, we will study them, and change with them. Will you?



I would say, based on his accurate understanding of the current PLD, that PLD certainly is the job for him.

I hate when people piecemeal my posts like this. I'm just going to reply to it all at once.

Paladins are plenty useful in there current state, and there really isn't much DD stuff on AF3. Most of it centers on defensive stats and has some nice accuracy bonuses as well, which is great for paladin tanks, since accuracy food really isn't an option for any paladin wanting to maximize their defense.

IMHO, the worst thing you can do to a Paladin is forget about your healing and pretend you are a ninja. That is probably the main reason so many people are unhappy with the job. And their AF3 in no way resembles this kinda of playstyle. There is a tiny bit of haste on it and some strength, but that's about it. It is deffinitely a defensive set, as it should be. Tons of HP and Mp also, stats which any good heal/tank will drool over :)

Curing is not a waste of mp for enmity. Not only does it create a ton of enmity, but it also restores your HP as well, so you get two things in one. And just because you are curing yourself doesn't mean you can't melee also - so basically your whole argument makes no sense.

Curing does not prevent you from meleeing or doing damage. That's just silly to think that. Obvioulsy a paladin meleeing and using weapon skills and curing on top of that is going to create a lot more enmity than a paladin who does nothing but melee and use weapon skills. That's the bottom line, and what i was pointing out. I never said a paladin should sheath his sword and just use cures and stop hitting the monster and using his weapon skills.

And the game hasn't changed in the respect you say it has since 2004. In fact I'd say Paladins far excel in their role as a healing tank than ever they did way back when in 2004.

And this was my point. If you don't like to cure yourself to create extra enmity while keeping yourself alive - Paladin just isn't the job you should play IMHO. If you want to blink tank and rely on maximizing your melee damage to create enmity and neglect your heals, you probably should be playing something else. That's why so many paladins at the moment are envious of monks and other blink tanks...because they are trying to be like monks or ninjas with plate armor on and it's just not working out for them as well as it is for jobs that are actually made for it.

Finally to close i'll just say this,
The Paladin is indeed a heal/tank, and that is a very accurate understanding of the job. We are not ninjas in plate armor. That is a very poor understanding of the job.

We just completely disagree with one another, so might as well leave it at that.

This job is awesome for players who want to maximize their ability to tank and keep themselves alive while doing it. It's what we actually excel at.

This job is not awesome for players who want to maximize their enmity by doing huge melee dps. You will always be overshadowed by other jobs if you attempt this, and that's why you see so many unhappy paladins.

We have way too many people playing paladin right now who would be far better suited playing as a warrior, monk, or even ninja.

[Lutschfactor]

dale, after playing pld since i could remember..i started in 02 after high school. u have by far said it the best way anyone can on how a pld should be a pld. i only wish i could have stated those things earlier then u. i agree with u on just about everything u have to say about how a pld should be a pld. we both know the only real way to do the damage is with the atmas...but this game is more then atmas...at the moment it is abyssea and its obvious to everyone who plays. there will be a time when abyssea is no longer needed. like sky, sea, and limbus. then all u people who cant tank on mnk will be crying for a pld who has worked his ass off to get the af3 and chant and aegis and all magic and physical down gear they can get. one day we will have our victory.

[Sagian]

Lets say you do a cure 4 for 500 hp.

That comes out to 312 CE on a lvl 90 player.
500 points of melee dmg comes to 625 CE on a lvl 95 target.

Notice the difference?


Yes, but how long does it actually take a PLD to do 500 points of mele damage or accumulate TP for a WS vs casting a Cure IV? When you start trying to crunch numbers like this, you have to take time into account. You also need to take into account the fact that the DD's are doing damage at the same time the PLD is.

Sure, your weapon skill may get hate, but if I let you take a couple hits, throw a Cure IV at you and then Provoke, guess who's going to have hate again... and if I happen to have the TP, throw in a WS for good measure.

Of course I'm assuming hate isn't capped for both of us and I'm talking about IT mobs here. Anything less is usually too soft and too quick to die to bother with.

[Greatguardian]

Sigh.

It's abundantly clear that a lot of people posting don't really know how Enmity works, so I'll help out.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13235.html

The above is an incredibly extensive compendium of Enmity testing and knowledge. Kaeko (Kanican) has contributed literal mountains of information to the playerbase. Take the time to read through it, and you will find yourself better able to understand the FFXI Enmity system.

All Paladins Should Read This. (All senior citizens should wear life alert, etc)

Edit: I'll just make a new thread for this link, actually. I don't want it to get overlooked here.

[Sekundes]

Sigh.

It's abundantly clear that a lot of people posting don't really know how Enmity works, so I'll help out.

http://kanican.livejournal.com/13235.html

The above is an incredibly extensive compendium of Enmity testing and knowledge. Kaeko (Kanican) has contributed literal mountains of information to the playerbase. Take the time to read through it, and you will find yourself better able to understand the FFXI Enmity system.

All Paladins Should Read This. (All senior citizens should wear life alert, etc)

Edit: I'll just make a new thread for this link, actually. I don't want it to get overlooked here.

Thanks for posting that, perhaps some will read it and even understand what is missing.

[Martel]

I hate when people piecemeal my posts like this. I'm just going to reply to it all at once.

I'm not sure why this offends you so, but you'd best get used to it, cause its about to happen again. I'm not much of a writer, really. I find it easier to address things one thought at a time. And quoting the thought I'm addressing before hand means I don't have to paraphrase, or reference it before hand. I can just reply.

Well, I can at least try to address whole paragraphs if that makes you feel any better.


Paladins are plenty useful in there current state, and there really isn't much DD stuff on AF3. Most of it centers on defensive stats and has some nice accuracy bonuses as well, which is great for paladin tanks, since accuracy food really isn't an option for any paladin wanting to maximize their defense.

IMHO, the worst thing you can do to a Paladin is forget about your healing and pretend you are a ninja. That is probably the main reason so many people are unhappy with the job. And their AF3 in no way resembles this kinda of playstyle. There is a tiny bit of haste on it and some strength, but that's about it. It is deffinitely a defensive set, as it should be. Tons of HP and Mp also, stats which any good heal/tank will drool over :)

The reason many PLDs are dissatisfied isn't because they're playing the job wrong. It's because, no matter how they play, a large portion of the player base considers PLD useless. The howls of "Fix PLD! Fix PLD!" ringing through these forums, and most other forums, is a fair indication that PLD is not at the top of its game, much less in demand as a tank.

PLD AF3 isn't a defensive set, its a balanced set. Nearly every piece of it offers both offensive and defensive bonuses. The sole exception being the head which has a defensive/casting role. I would hardly call 12% haste a "tiny bit of haste". That's nearly half way to the haste cap in 3 pieces of gear. Personally, I TP in 4/5 Creed +2, and while you could argue about the body, the hands, feet and legs are best-in-slot TP gear. SE certainly did it right on the creed set. Now how does a set packed with DD stats not reflect a DD PLD playstyle? Having great TP gear with good defensive stats on it as well does even more to encourage and enable a PLD to play DD style.

And who the hell is pretending to be a NIN? Personally, I've hardly been on /nin recently, much less dual wielding. But I have an Ochain, and thus have other effective options that most PLDs do not.

Subbing nin, and/or DD'ing, doesn't mean we're ignoring our other capabilities, or pretending to be another job. It just means we use them only when necessary and appropriate.


Curing is not a waste of mp for enmity. Not only does it create a ton of enmity, but it also restores your HP as well, so you get two things in one. And just because you are curing yourself doesn't mean you can't melee also - so basically your whole argument makes no sense.

Curing purely for enmity, is a waste of time and mp. Note that 'purely' there. That means that you aren't already missing hp, thus the HP recovered is moot.

In order for cure to be cast purely for enmity, the use of a cure kit(or cheat, whatever name you prefer) is implied. You do know what that is right? In case you don't, as the misunderstanding in your post seems to imply, I will explain. A cure kit is when you use gear to first lower your max hp, then raise it up again, and fill the created gap by curing. Thus you weren't missing hp in the first place and the cure is cast only for the resulting enmity gain.

If you've been damaged, by all means cure yourself. I did state that curing has its place, as a survival tool. Curing for survival sake is a useful part of PLD. It's expected, and we haven't argued against curing to stay alive.

Melee attacks cannot process while casting a spell. Common knowledge, isn't it? Certainly, you can remain engaged to the mob while you cure spam, but every spell cast pecks holes in your DPS. Even a short spell like cure 4 will cost you a whole melee round. Even spamming you'll sneak a hit in here and there. But your over all DPS and WS rate takes a hit.

As for the two things at once, DD'ing not only generates excellent enmity, it does what we came here to do. Kill the mob, reap the rewards. and does it faster.

So basically your whole argument makes no sense.


Curing does not prevent you from meleeing or doing damage. That's just silly to think that. Obvioulsy a paladin meleeing and using weapon skills and curing on top of that is going to create a lot more enmity than a paladin who does nothing but melee and use weapon skills. That's the bottom line, and what i was pointing out. I never said a paladin should sheath his sword and just use cures and stop hitting the monster and using his weapon skills.

You have this backwards. A pld who is continuous interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob.


And the game hasn't changed in the respect you say it has since 2004. In fact I'd say Paladins far excel in their role as a healing tank than ever they did way back when in 2004.

I can't imagine in what respect you think I'm speaking that would honestly allow you to say that the game hasn't changed. PLD's role? To hear most people tell it it no longer even has one. Because nearly everything has changed. Even PLD itself. But more so, the enmity mechanics and situation that govern those roles.

The enmity modifiers for damage, dealt and taken. The cure mods. The levels of damage poeple are able to put out. The amount of damage people can survive. All of these have changed drastically.

Due to these changes, nearly any DD can be used as a tank, and survive. PLD's role. To hear most tell it, is to go change jobs. Which ironically is what you've been telling us to do.

Basically, PLD is not needed. There are very few, if any, mobs that can't be tanked by other jobs. And most of those jobs bring more utility(higher dmg, weakness procs) with them.

You call PLD a healer/tank.. but PLD can't fill the healer role alone on anything serious. Try PLD main healing on say.. Raja. I'd like to see a pld manage that without brewing or using fanatics/fools drinks. A WHM, or other additional support, will still be needed. And if you need a whm anyway, why not bring an tank that deals more dmg? Or has weakness procs that are needed?


And this was my point. If you don't like to cure yourself to create extra enmity while keeping yourself alive - Paladin just isn't the job you should play IMHO. If you want to blink tank and rely on maximizing your melee damage to create enmity and neglect your heals, you probably should be playing something else. That's why so many paladins at the moment are envious of monks and other blink tanks...because they are trying to be like monks or ninjas with plate armor on and it's just not working out for them as well as it is for jobs that are actually made for it.

I already addressed the cure, job, and job change issue in here I think. For the remainder..

Who said I wanted to blink tank? I like blood tanking. And thanks to Ochain I can do it effectively on most mobs. Shadows, for me, are a necessary evil. There are still mobs I'd need them on. Usually anything with a really dangerous additional effect on melee hit, en-doom, etc.

And who's trying to be a mnk or nin? I DD PLD style. Sword, shield, and 10 mobs feeding me TP. XD Although, dual wield has its place in DD as well. If additional defenses aren't needed, boost your DD.

Whoa.. I hit the character limit. Is this SE's way of telling me I'm long-winded? Splitting into 2 posts. I suppose that is one issue with quoting like I have been. Although its an issue I've never run into till now.

[Martel]

Finally to close i'll just say this,
The Paladin is indeed a heal/tank, and that is a very accurate understanding of the job. We are not ninjas in plate armor. That is a very poor understanding of the job.

We just completely disagree with one another, so might as well leave it at that.

This job is awesome for players who want to maximize their ability to tank and keep themselves alive while doing it. It's what we actually excel at.

This job is not awesome for players who want to maximize their enmity by doing huge melee dps. You will always be overshadowed by other jobs if you attempt this, and that's why you see so many unhappy paladins.

We have way too many people playing paladin right now who would be far better suited playing as a warrior, monk, or even ninja.

Again with this ninja thing.. well, I covered that already, and most of the rest of this section.

PLD overshadowed eh. Yep can't argue there. There are better DD jobs. But you make it sound like if we stay in this little 2004 PLD role, we won't be over shadowed.

Thing is, it's a fairly common opinion that PLD has already been completely overshadowed in every way. A healer/tank eh..? A MNK or NIN /DNC(or a DNC main) can do that too. A blood tank, BLU is quite good at that as well SO is MNK, but that 's really more counter tanking. And deals more DMG. But.. why are we trying to blood tank anyway? Evasion, blink, or counter tanking are more effective. Less dmg taken, reduced risk of nasty en-effects, and you don't have to gear for dmg reduction(well, with eva tanking you usually do need some eva+) so you get a higher dmg output. And there's reduced mob TP feed since its not hitting you. Finish what your doing faster,and thus reap greater rewards over time. Where is the need for a PLD? And if they don't need it.. well they'll bring something more useful.

So, to close I'll just say this;

I don't want to be a MNK, NIN, or any other job. I want to be, an effective, efficient, and useful PLD. And I'm doing everything I can to reach that, despite PLDs unfavorable situation.

I asked you, if you would seek to understand the current situation, and future changes, and if you'd adapt to them. I think the answer to that is pretty clearly, No.

[Ordoric]

pld is the tank job the way other jobs have been minipulated pld needs some buffing however some dd is over powerd loved colibi as pld 2 sam pole arm drg and rng i wanted to see a marco " WATCH HO FAST I DIE "<sidewinder>

[Dale]

I'm not sure why this offends you so, but you'd best get used to it, cause its about to happen again. I'm not much of a writer, really. I find it easier to address things one thought at a time. And quoting the thought I'm addressing before hand means I don't have to paraphrase, or reference it before hand. I can just reply.

Well, I can at least try to address whole paragraphs if that makes you feel any better.



The reason many PLDs are dissatisfied isn't because they're playing the job wrong. It's because, no matter how they play, a large portion of the player base considers PLD useless. The howls of "Fix PLD! Fix PLD!" ringing through these forums, and most other forums, is a fair indication that PLD is not at the top of its game, much less in demand as a tank.

PLD AF3 isn't a defensive set, its a balanced set. Nearly every piece of it offers both offensive and defensive bonuses. The sole exception being the head which has a defensive/casting role. I would hardly call 12% haste a "tiny bit of haste". That's nearly half way to the haste cap in 3 pieces of gear. Personally, I TP in 4/5 Creed +2, and while you could argue about the body, the hands, feet and legs are best-in-slot TP gear. SE certainly did it right on the creed set. Now how does a set packed with DD stats not reflect a DD PLD playstyle? Having great TP gear with good defensive stats on it as well does even more to encourage and enable a PLD to play DD style.

And who the hell is pretending to be a NIN? Personally, I've hardly been on /nin recently, much less dual wielding. But I have an Ochain, and thus have other effective options that most PLDs do not.

Subbing nin, and/or DD'ing, doesn't mean we're ignoring our other capabilities, or pretending to be another job. It just means we use them only when necessary and appropriate.



Curing purely for enmity, is a waste of time and mp. Note that 'purely' there. That means that you aren't already missing hp, thus the HP recovered is moot.

In order for cure to be cast purely for enmity, the use of a cure kit(or cheat, whatever name you prefer) is implied. You do know what that is right? In case you don't, as the misunderstanding in your post seems to imply, I will explain. A cure kit is when you use gear to first lower your max hp, then raise it up again, and fill the created gap by curing. Thus you weren't missing hp in the first place and the cure is cast only for the resulting enmity gain.

If you've been damaged, by all means cure yourself. I did state that curing has its place, as a survival tool. Curing for survival sake is a useful part of PLD. It's expected, and we haven't argued against curing to stay alive.

Melee attacks cannot process while casting a spell. Common knowledge, isn't it? Certainly, you can remain engaged to the mob while you cure spam, but every spell cast pecks holes in your DPS. Even a short spell like cure 4 will cost you a whole melee round. Even spamming you'll sneak a hit in here and there. But your over all DPS and WS rate takes a hit.

As for the two things at once, DD'ing not only generates excellent enmity, it does what we came here to do. Kill the mob, reap the rewards. and does it faster.

So basically your whole argument makes no sense.



You have this backwards. A pld who is continuous interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob.



I can't imagine in what respect you think I'm speaking that would honestly allow you to say that the game hasn't changed. PLD's role? To hear most people tell it it no longer even has one. Because nearly everything has changed. Even PLD itself. But more so, the enmity mechanics and situation that govern those roles.

The enmity modifiers for damage, dealt and taken. The cure mods. The levels of damage poeple are able to put out. The amount of damage people can survive. All of these have changed drastically.

Due to these changes, nearly any DD can be used as a tank, and survive. PLD's role. To hear most tell it, is to go change jobs. Which ironically is what you've been telling us to do.

Basically, PLD is not needed. There are very few, if any, mobs that can't be tanked by other jobs. And most of those jobs bring more utility(higher dmg, weakness procs) with them.

You call PLD a healer/tank.. but PLD can't fill the healer role alone on anything serious. Try PLD main healing on say.. Raja. I'd like to see a pld manage that without brewing or using fanatics/fools drinks. A WHM, or other additional support, will still be needed. And if you need a whm anyway, why not bring an tank that deals more dmg? Or has weakness procs that are needed?



I already addressed the cure, job, and job change issue in here I think. For the remainder..

Who said I wanted to blink tank? I like blood tanking. And thanks to Ochain I can do it effectively on most mobs. Shadows, for me, are a necessary evil. There are still mobs I'd need them on. Usually anything with a really dangerous additional effect on melee hit, en-doom, etc.

And who's trying to be a mnk or nin? I DD PLD style. Sword, shield, and 10 mobs feeding me TP. XD Although, dual wield has its place in DD as well. If additional defenses aren't needed, boost your DD.

Whoa.. I hit the character limit. Is this SE's way of telling me I'm long-winded? Splitting into 2 posts. I suppose that is one issue with quoting like I have been. Although its an issue I've never run into till now.

It's annoying to respond to because it's broken up into tons of different pieces. But i'll deal with it...i'll just answer you generally.

I never said paladins should cure when they don't have hp missing. That is just stupid. Who on earth would waste mp curing themselves if they aren't missing any hp. Not only would that be pointless, as it woudn't generate any enmity anyway - but is just idiotic. You can use cures for both - to create enmity and to restore missing hp. This debate has gotten ludicrous.

And a ton of people are trying to be ninjas with their paladin. You may not be one of them, but a lot of them are. But you sidestepped my point.. A paladin is better off healing and doing damage to create enmity than he is just increasing his damage, that is what i'm saying. If you want to be a job who focuses on damage dealing, be something else - paladin is not your best choice. We are - in fact - healing tanks. That's what the job is, and what it was meant to be - and that hasn't changed.

[Greatguardian]

It's annoying to respond to because it's broken up into tons of different pieces. But i'll deal with it...i'll just answer you generally.

I never said paladins should cure when they don't have hp missing. That is just stupid. Who on earth would waste curing themselves if they aren't missing any hp. Not only would that be pointless, as it woudn't generate any enmity anyway - but is just idiotic. You can use cures for both - to create enmity and to restore missing hp. This debate has gotten ludicrous.

And a ton of people are trying to be ninjas with their paladin. You may not be one of them, but a lot of them are. But you sidestepped my point, which indicates a weakness. A paladin is better off healing and doing damage to create enmity than he is just increasing his damage, that is what i'm saying. If you want to be a job who focuses on damage dealing, be something else - paladin is not your best choice. We are - in fact - healing tanks. That's what the job is, and what it was meant to be - and that hasn't changed.

ITT: What it was "meant to be" versus How it best performs.

Guess I should start subbing RDM on my NIN and stick to enfeebling/pulling, then.

[Dale]

ITT: What it was "meant to be" versus How it best performs.

Guess I should start subbing RDM on my NIN and stick to enfeebling/pulling, then.

Paladin performs quite well as a healing/tank and I got no complaints

[Greatguardian]

Paladin performs quite well as a healing/tank and I got no complaints - but if you think it does better as a /rdm or /nin to enfeeble and pull... go for it, but it's no wonder you are dissatisfied with your paladin lol

You misread. I was referring to NIN/RDM enfeebling/pulling as "What Square Enix designed the job to be".

I'm not at all dissatisfied with PLD. I'm sitting here scratching my head at all these people posting complaint threads about it, proposing fixes. PLD works fine as an auxiliary job. It doesn't have any issues maintaining capped Enmity, and it can deal damage around the strength of a Bst or a Thf in Abyssea.

The reasons people avoid PLDs are twofold:

1) Most PLDs suck. Really, really suck. Like, cannot even salvage them. They are horrible, horrible, horrible PLDs. Total waste of space. PLD has an extremely high ratio of Suck to Good in its playerbase. This is partially because of reason 2.

2) PLD is unnecessary in a lowman environment. Most high end players aim to be efficient and get things done as quickly and with as few people as possible. In this context, it makes no sense to bring a PLD to anything Abyssea related. WAR, NIN, and MNK cover all Red and Blue procs (with Hexa from a Whm), and all deal significantly more damage than a PLD. THF deals about as much damage as PLD, but at the same time adds TH. Generally speaking, if you have enough extra people that bringing a PLD is not detracting from your efficiency, you're probably still better off getting that PLD on something else and splitting your group up.

So this basically leaves you with high end players only using PLD when they feel like messing around, or not really worrying about efficiency (typically this is only among friend groups), and then all the horrible, horrible, low tier PLDs that inhabit the game. Chances are, if you're getting a PLD you don't know, they're horrible.

[Dale]

You misread. I was referring to NIN/RDM enfeebling/pulling as "What Square Enix designed the job to be".

I'm not at all dissatisfied with PLD. I'm sitting here scratching my head at all these people posting complaint threads about it, proposing fixes. PLD works fine as an auxiliary job. It doesn't have any issues maintaining capped Enmity, and it can deal damage around the strength of a Bst or a Thf in Abyssea.

The reasons people avoid PLDs are twofold:

1) Most PLDs suck. Really, really suck. Like, cannot even salvage them. They are horrible, horrible, horrible PLDs. Total waste of space. PLD has an extremely high ratio of Suck to Good in its playerbase. This is partially because of reason 2.

2) PLD is unnecessary in a lowman environment. Most high end players aim to be efficient and get things done as quickly and with as few people as possible. In this context, it makes no sense to bring a PLD to anything Abyssea related. WAR, NIN, and MNK cover all Red and Blue procs (with Hexa from a Whm), and all deal significantly more damage than a PLD. THF deals about as much damage as PLD, but at the same time adds TH. Generally speaking, if you have enough extra people that bringing a PLD is not detracting from your efficiency, you're probably still better off getting that PLD on something else and splitting your group up.

So this basically leaves you with high end players only using PLD when they feel like messing around, or not really worrying about efficiency (typically this is only among friend groups), and then all the horrible, horrible, low tier PLDs that inhabit the game. Chances are, if you're getting a PLD you don't know, they're horrible.

Ok well i'm sorry I misread your post. Thought you said sub redmage or ninja, not "on" ninja. Though I have to say I think Ninjas and Red Mages make excellent enfeeblers.

And the reason so many Paladins suck is because they try to mimic the paladins in their linkshells who basically outgear the content they are doing, so they are able to play in....i'll say odd ways and get away with it. And the lowbie thinks it is awesome and tries to copy it to a much lesser affect.

Another factor is a lot of paladins never learn how to solo - level up mega fast in abyssea to the point their combat skills can't keep up - and are gimped considerably as a result. Many of them also never bother to level up their enhancing skill, which has a significant impact on Phalanx, which is the best thing to happen to paladin since the shield buff.

And from my understanding, a lot of jobs are unnecessary in abyssea once the most powerful atma is attained, as it allows jobs to buff considerably to the point they are no longer reliant on other jobs to make up for their weaknesses. So I don't see this as being a problem with the paladin. It's just an abyssea phenomenon, where the usual rules don't apply.

[Greatguardian]

You're right, it's not limited to PLD. But I don't see people clamoring to get BSTs, PUPs, or SMNs in their linkshells in the overworld either. It applies both inside and out. If anything, Abyssea promotes a greater job diversity by requiring at least 6 unique jobs to full proc any single NM (MNK/WAR, NIN/WAR, WAR, WHM, BLU/NIN, BLM/BRD). Outside, you could just have a BRD/BLM, WHM/SCH, and any two DDs and you'll be set.

[Dale]

You're right, it's not limited to PLD. But I don't see people clamoring to get BSTs, PUPs, or SMNs in their linkshells in the overworld either. It applies both inside and out. If anything, Abyssea promotes a greater job diversity by requiring at least 6 unique jobs to full proc any single NM (MNK/WAR, NIN/WAR, WAR, WHM, BLU/NIN, BLM/BRD). Outside, you could just have a BRD/BLM, WHM/SCH, and any two DDs and you'll be set.

Well I've had quite a few linkshells trying to snag me to use retribution for them on abyssea NMs.

I understand your point though - but that could be primarily due to the fact BST, PUPS, and SMNs are just more rare on your server, so there is more of a demand for them. I think SE's intent was to give jobs with a less dominant role more of a purpose in abyssea.

Far as being on the outside - who cares if an ignorant exp party snubs you. Paladin is a beast solo, can chain incredibly tough monsters for all the exp you could ever want. So it's their loss really. Just solo your exp or party with friends. There is no need to deal with cocky DDs who think they are awesome tanks because they have both a bard and white mage supporting their butts.

[Martel]

I never said paladins should cure when they don't have hp missing. That is just stupid. Who on earth would waste mp curing themselves if they aren't missing any hp. Not only would that be pointless, as it woudn't generate any enmity anyway - but is just idiotic. You can use cures for both - to create enmity and to restore missing hp. This debate has gotten ludicrous.

Are.. You serious? I'm not getting trolled am I? I even explained this in my post. Did you read it? The part about Cure Kits(cheats)? Well, I'll try again.

The reason someone would cure themselves when they haven't been damaged is for the enmity. Cause they aren't going to cure for 0. A cure kit, is when you use gear swaps to create a difference between your current and max hp. That difference can then be filled by curing. So, Equip hp-, then convert hp>mp gear, start casting cure, remove all the -gear and equip HP+ and enmity gear. That's a cure kit.

They were created, and mostly used when tanking /nin, since you didn't take dmg, but did lose small amounts of hate via shadow loss. But after the introduction of atonement and the accompanying increase in PLDs DD output, they were regulated to a back up form of enmity gain. As Atonement spam is far more effective if you can tp/ws the mob. Cure kits are still useful if you can't DD a mob, but if you can DD they're now mostly a waste of time.

I really want to know how you didn't know what a cure kit is. How long have you been a PLD? Did you never tank any HNM type mobs? Or any major NMS at all?

It is Cure kit spam, Which greatguardian brought up while when mentioning the low efficiency of cure enmity, that I object to. Which is what i thought you were advocating, initially. But Greatguardian also noted that curing for survival is fine, just not good hate compared to DD.

But you know.. Since you apparently aren't advocating cure kits, and arguing for normal cures as a source of hate.. that's even worse for your argument. Because someone must take dmg to be cured. And if you have hate, that's you, losing hate to be able to cure. 2 steps forward, one step back. And the rate of Curing is limited by how fast you're taking dmg. Once your HP is full, you stop getting hate via cures. DD just keeps on rollin'.


And a ton of people are trying to be ninjas with their paladin. You may not be one of them, but a lot of them are. But you sidestepped my point.. A paladin is better off healing and doing damage to create enmity than he is just increasing his damage, that is what i'm saying. If you want to be a job who focuses on damage dealing, be something else - paladin is not your best choice. We are - in fact - healing tanks. That's what the job is, and what it was meant to be - and that hasn't changed.

I didn't sidestep your point. I addressed it directly.

"You have this backwards. A pld who is continuously interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob."

I seem to recall addressing the job concern already too..

"I don't want to be a MNK, NIN, or any other job. I want to be, an effective, efficient, and useful PLD. And I'm doing everything I can to reach that, despite PLDs unfavorable situation."

Did you read my posts? Why am I addressing the same points over and over with no change to counter my argument.

[Greever]

Are.. You serious? I'm not getting trolled am I? I even explained this in my post. Did you read it? The part about Cure Kits(cheats)? Well, I'll try again.

The reason someone would cure themselves when they haven't been damaged is for the enmity. Cause they aren't going to cure for 0. A cure kit, is when you use gear swaps to create a difference between your current and max hp. That difference can then be filled by curing. So, Equip hp-, then convert hp>mp gear, start casting cure, remove all the -gear and equip HP+ and enmity gear. That's a cure kit.

They were created, and mostly used when tanking /nin, since you didn't take dmg, but did lose small amounts of hate via shadow loss. But after the introduction of atonement and the accompanying increase in PLDs DD output, they were regulated to a back up form of enmity gain. As Atonement spam is far more effective if you can tp/ws the mob. Cure kits are still useful if you can't DD a mob, but if you can DD they're now mostly a waste of time.

I really want to know how you didn't know what a cure kit is. How long have you been a PLD? Did you never tank any HNM type mobs? Or any major NMS at all?

It is Cure kit spam, Which greatguardian brought up while when mentioning the low efficiency of cure enmity, that I object to. Which is what i thought you were advocating, initially. But Greatguardian also noted that curing for survival is fine, just not good hate compared to DD.

But you know.. Since you apparently aren't advocating cure kits, and arguing for normal cures as a source of hate.. that's even worse for your argument. Because someone must take dmg to be cured. And if you have hate, that's you, losing hate to be able to cure. 2 steps forward, one step back. And the rate of Curing is limited by how fast you're taking dmg. Once your HP is full, you stop getting hate via cures. DD just keeps on rollin'.



I didn't sidestep your point. I addressed it directly.

"You have this backwards. A pld who is continuously interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob."

I seem to recall addressing the job concern already too..

"I don't want to be a MNK, NIN, or any other job. I want to be, an effective, efficient, and useful PLD. And I'm doing everything I can to reach that, despite PLDs unfavorable situation."

Did you read my posts? Why am I addressing the same points over and over with no change to counter my argument.

Because ppl like Dale still live in '04 and refuse to change with how the game is played

[Auredant]

I have seen quite a few posts thus far pertaining to Enmity challenges, and some posters even going so far as to suggest the paladin should have his enmity output doubled to make them more viable tanks. Now with this I have an issue, and I will explain why.

One of the key differences between a good player and a bad player is the ability to manage their enmity. This is a big part to the challenge of this game - and the fact an effective damage dealer can rip hate off the Paladin is the way it should be. It makes the battle more interesting and thought-provoking. If the Paladin could simply keep hate all the time easily no matter what the other members of the party did the game's battle system would suffer greatly as a result.

Example: state of point if a Dragoon goes nuts at the beginning of a Nm fight spamming weapon skills and dies because of it, that is the way it should be and is not the fault of the Paladin, and buffs should not be giving to the Paladin to prevent this from happening either, else many fights would turn into bland "spam the most damage you can as quick as you can till its dead" monotony This would be dull and way too easy.

Paladins need to learn to stop blaming themselves with damage dealers draw enmity and get themselves killed, because 9 times out of 10 it's usually not the paladin's fault, but the dead guy's because he took a bigger bite then he could chew.
while that was generally the case the game has changed. a dd no longer has to "go nuts" to rip hate off a tank. It is an issue that needs adressing if pld is to become a viable job again

[Auredant]

There are loads of ways to fix pld if Square really wanted to.

The emnity idea would work, allowing cures to exceed the current cap, dissallowing any DD tanking (since damage done by any source would be unable to exceed the old cap and mages curing you would be killed) and giving pld a JA that allows it to also exceed the cap (give it to nin too but using this JA would greatly nerf its DD capability equalising it to pld as a tank). So like, any form of damage can go upto the current 100% cap at best, but cures, pld&nin using the special JA can take it upto 150%. Every job in the game should not be able to cap hate as they currently can.

Another way is to make new endgame mobs that simply don't take damage well at all under any circumstances and have lots of conal aoe moves(or normal moves being conal aoe, like iron giants), very high -damage taken and -magic dmg (lower hp to make the fight lengths about the same). In this way holding hate via damage simply won't work and again cures would exceed a DD's ability to tank anything at all. Specific tanks would be the only jobs able to hold hate while DD pick away at it. Mobs like this of course would also need to go into hyper rage mode doing massive unstunnable aoes if their hp bar drops too quick (to stop zergs and make the fight more tactical).

Lastly make all endgame mobs have high regain and lots of aoe moves, also make them rage within a fairly short amount of time to force you to put a lot of DD on it. Now give pld spells which give defferent types of auras, ie -50%+ damage taken to everyone within 10 distance of the pld. Pld with -dmg taken aura that covers all the DD allows you to take the mob down with lots of DD on it, also the mobs should have regular stages where it cannot be damaged every 5-10% hp taken aswell as -dmg to ranged attacks to stop zerging or getting around the need for auras.

The current hate system is stupid and terrible, makes no sense the hate system does not give benefits and ways to exceed current limits to it's tanking classes. Laughable design that a powerful DD can make a paladin useless and unable under any means to get hate off them lol
I like this pld aura idea...would require testing but this alone would breathe life into the job.

[Dale]

Are.. You serious? I'm not getting trolled am I? I even explained this in my post. Did you read it? The part about Cure Kits(cheats)? Well, I'll try again.

The reason someone would cure themselves when they haven't been damaged is for the enmity. Cause they aren't going to cure for 0. A cure kit, is when you use gear swaps to create a difference between your current and max hp. That difference can then be filled by curing. So, Equip hp-, then convert hp>mp gear, start casting cure, remove all the -gear and equip HP+ and enmity gear. That's a cure kit.

They were created, and mostly used when tanking /nin, since you didn't take dmg, but did lose small amounts of hate via shadow loss. But after the introduction of atonement and the accompanying increase in PLDs DD output, they were regulated to a back up form of enmity gain. As Atonement spam is far more effective if you can tp/ws the mob. Cure kits are still useful if you can't DD a mob, but if you can DD they're now mostly a waste of time.

I really want to know how you didn't know what a cure kit is. How long have you been a PLD? Did you never tank any HNM type mobs? Or any major NMS at all?

It is Cure kit spam, Which greatguardian brought up while when mentioning the low efficiency of cure enmity, that I object to. Which is what i thought you were advocating, initially. But Greatguardian also noted that curing for survival is fine, just not good hate compared to DD.

But you know.. Since you apparently aren't advocating cure kits, and arguing for normal cures as a source of hate.. that's even worse for your argument. Because someone must take dmg to be cured. And if you have hate, that's you, losing hate to be able to cure. 2 steps forward, one step back. And the rate of Curing is limited by how fast you're taking dmg. Once your HP is full, you stop getting hate via cures. DD just keeps on rollin'.



I didn't sidestep your point. I addressed it directly.

"You have this backwards. A pld who is continuously interrupting his DPS and TP gain to cast poor enmity spells like cure will generate far less enmity than a PLD focused on his damage output. Sure, I'll cure if I need to, but if I've got a whm standing behind me, I'll let them cure while I kill the mob."

I seem to recall addressing the job concern already too..

"I don't want to be a MNK, NIN, or any other job. I want to be, an effective, efficient, and useful PLD. And I'm doing everything I can to reach that, despite PLDs unfavorable situation."

Did you read my posts? Why am I addressing the same points over and over with no change to counter my argument.

Well if you would respond to me in a single post without splitting it up in a million different sections like you are writing a freaking book with chapters perhaps i could follow your replies better :)

Firstly - i never suggested paladins should do weak cures and spam them for crap enmity. That is a retarded strat, and silly how you are going off on this acting like that's what i suggested paladins do. But i've talked about this nonsense enough - so i'm moving on. I never said they should do that.

And you did sidestep my point, and you are still side stepping a point. A paladin curing himself to recover his hp while doing melee and weapon skills will generate more enmity than a paldin who does nothing but melee and do weapon skills. Now of course a paladin who spends all his time spamming weak cures to for crap enmity is not going to be effective, but i never suggested a paladin do that.

In short - you understimate how effective casting powerful heals on yourself to recover at least 400 hps back on yourself while tanking is for creating extra enmity. And if you want me to counter your arguments argue about something i actually said.

Now that being said stop complaining about my inability to follow your responses. If you want me to follow them better, stop splitting your replies up into so many different sections. Otherwise, stop complaining about it :)

[Dale]

Because ppl like Dale still live in '04 and refuse to change with how the game is played

w/e greever

Just because it's 2011 doesn't mean paladins should stop curing themselves, and I think this whole discussion has turned into nonsense. Obviously the paladin was designed to heal himself while tanking. If you want to be a job that focuses on primarily doing high melee damage, the paladin is a poor choice in jobs. We are designed to heal ourselves, and that will help fix the enmity gap so many of you are feeling when compared with other high damage melee.

But you can play the job however you want. But just let me say it's no wonder to me - just by reading the way so many of you play this job - they you are all clamoring for more buffs, say the job sucks or isnt' viable ect...

Paladins who think healing is a waste and is a thing of the past. I have heard it all now lol

I wonder what is next. Black mages who don't nuke and demand their melee be buffed because they are no longer viable as dps :)

[Dale]

while that was generally the case the game has changed. a dd no longer has to "go nuts" to rip hate off a tank. It is an issue that needs adressing if pld is to become a viable job again

Well it is still the case as far as i'm concerned. I have no trouble keeping the mobs off my dps or getting it back off my dps when they play smart and don't over-reach what they can handle.

The Paladin is plenty viable in my judgement, but as always, you are free to disagree :)

[Zagen]

And you did sidestep my point, and you are still side stepping a point. A paladin curing himself to recover his hp while doing melee and weapon skills will generate more enmity than a paldin who does nothing but melee and do weapon skills. Now of course a paladin who spends all his time spamming weak cures to for crap enmity is not going to be effective, but i never suggested a paladin do that.

In short - you understimate how effective casting powerful heals on yourself to recover at least 400 hps back on yourself while tanking is for creating extra enmity. And if you want me to counter your arguments argue about something i actually said.

Do you understand that every spell you cast reduces your DPS(damage per second) as well as TP gain? Currently the most effective way to gain both CE and VE Enmity is through damage dealt from melee and WSs (this is why melee rip hate/tank so easily). While Cures generate hate they are costly not only to MP but to overall hate gain as you must interrupt your DPS.

[Sagian]

Do you understand that every spell you cast reduces your DPS(damage per second) as well as TP gain? Currently the most effective way to gain both CE and VE Enmity is through damage dealt from melee and WSs (this is why melee rip hate/tank so easily). While Cures generate hate they are costly not only to MP but to overall hate gain as you must interrupt your DPS.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what kind of damage do you think a single hit is going to do to gain more enmity than a Cure IV?

[Martel]

Dale,

I already stated that I misunderstood your stance on cures. Clearly you could not be advocating the use of cure kit spam when you don't understand what a cure kit is. Despite my having explained it twice.

To ensure I'm not misinterpreting anything else I'll lay out what I've understood about your image of PLD as a healer/tank. If you find any of this to be inaccurate, please correct it, and explain in more detail.

The healer/tank:

Blood tanks.
Cures when damaged.
TP's and ws's normally, but does not gear for DD.
I assume idles in PDT/DEF/VIT gear?
Subjob preference? I don't think it was stated aside from not /nin.
Policy on gear swaps?
Has no trouble holding hate, off DD that restrain themselves properly.
Anyone who disagrees with these points should go play mnk or nin?

Again please correct any misunderstandings on my part about this.

I'm also rather curious about the experiences that drive and support your play style. Could we hear a bit about your pld history?

Perhaps a bit on your:
NM/HNM tanking experience.
Event tanking(Dynamis,Limbus,Einhejar,etc)
NM solo.

Lastly, I recall you mentioned not having powerful atma yet. Can I then assume, that you have not personally experienced high end Abyssea PLD DD? Do the DD amongst your LS mates/friends also lack powerful atma?

[Zagen]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but what kind of damage do you think a single hit is going to do to gain more enmity than a Cure IV?

- First it isn't just 1 hit. While the spell will cast within in the time of 1 hit you aren't accounting for the delay the game adds when you cast a spell or use a Job Ability which adds up to 2 and 3 sings every other cast or so. My PLD still needs improvement in DD gear and I can do 100-150 damage a swing in Abyssea not counting Crits which thanks to RR happen a lot, sorry haven't paid attention outside of Abyssea but I doubt its gonna be lower than what I can do in Abyssea.

- Second you aren't accounting for a Joyeuse OAT proc if you're using it or a Double Attack or a Triple Attack proc.

- Third the TP gained from these hits you miss will mean reduced TP gained which in turn means reduced WSs. Atonement was great back in the day for the 750 damage it could do but now in Abyssea a DD geared/Atma'ed PLD can pump out 1.2-1.8k Vorpal Blades or Sanguine Blades. 3-5k Chant du Cygne if you have it.

I don't know about you but that all sounds like Cure IV just helped cost you a lot more enmity than it could have given you.

Don't get me wrong it is great in a pinch to cure you but for hate gain it hurts more than it helps.

[Greever]

w/e greever

Just because it's 2011 doesn't mean paladins should stop curing themselves, and I think this whole discussion has turned into nonsense. Obviously the paladin was designed to heal himself while tanking. If you want to be a job that focuses on primarily doing high melee damage, the paladin is a poor choice in jobs. We are designed to heal ourselves, and that will help fix the enmity gap so many of you are feeling when compared with other high damage melee.

But you can play the job however you want. But just let me say it's no wonder to me - just by reading the way so many of you play this job - they you are all clamoring for more buffs, say the job sucks or isnt' viable ect...

Paladins who think healing is a waste and is a thing of the past. I have heard it all now lol

I wonder what is next. Black mages who don't nuke and demand their melee be buffed because they are no longer viable as dps :)

u just dont get it do u. there is no relevant mob in this game that a pld can tank with out support. If a mob can be shadow tanked (/nin) give any DD the same support you would give to a pld and the DD will tank just as good if not better. The same goes for blood tanking. as mentioned before getting -pdt% gear is a joke now, and given the same support pld loses this battle also.

Who gives a shit if a pld can cure itself in an event where said pld needs support? 90% of the time, if ur curing urself for survival AND u have support, ur getting cure bombed, in which case destroys ur arguement that u can use cure for hate. But then again if ur talking about cure spamming for hate/survival, DNC dose it better.

U see my last statement? ill repeat it, DNC dose it better. No matter what arguement u make, u can attach that statement to any other job and its the god honest truth. There are only a few exceptions, but thats barely a handful where Pld dose it better. And that is the real problem with the job, not lack of holding hate or JA's.

[Sagian]

- First it isn't just 1 hit. While the spell will cast within in the time of 1 hit you aren't accounting for the delay the game adds when you cast a spell or use a Job Ability which adds up to 2 and 3 sings every other cast or so. My PLD still needs improvement in DD gear and I can do 100-150 damage a swing in Abyssea not counting Crits which thanks to RR happen a lot, sorry haven't paid attention outside of Abyssea but I doubt its gonna be lower than what I can do in Abyssea.

- Second you aren't accounting for a Joyeuse OAT proc if you're using it or a Double Attack or a Triple Attack proc.

- Third the TP gained from these hits you miss will mean reduced TP gained which in turn means reduced WSs. Atonement was great back in the day for the 750 damage it could do but now in Abyssea a DD geared/Atma'ed PLD can pump out 1.2-1.8k Vorpal Blades or Sanguine Blades. 3-5k Chant du Cygne if you have it.

I don't know about you but that all sounds like Cure IV just helped cost you a lot more enmity than it could have given you.

Don't get me wrong it is great in a pinch to cure you but for hate gain it hurts more than it helps.

Then why does it work 95% of the time?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if someone else has hate, and I'm hitting the mob, and they're hitting the mob, and I'm doing WS's, and they're doing WS's, I might get hate for a moment, but I'm unable to lock hate. If I throw a Cure IV on the person getting hit, I have the mobs undivided attention, at least for a while.

[Zagen]

Then why does it work 95% of the time?

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but if someone else has hate, and I'm hitting the mob, and they're hitting the mob, and I'm doing WS's, and they're doing WS's, I might get hate for a moment, but I'm unable to lock hate. If I throw a Cure IV on the person getting hit, I have the mobs undivided attention, at least for a while.
I highly doubt it works 50% of the time let alone 95% of the time assuming you have decent DDs.

On anything that isn't strong to physical damage my WAR averages 250+ a hit not counting crits or widowmaker's bonus, my MNK does 150ish per punch on average and gets 2 cycles to every 3 a PLD gets, keep in mind that's 4 hits vs. 3 hits not counting DA or kick attacks. That means I will be capping/recapping CE/VE hate faster than PLD even if they spam Cure IV on me unless there is 0 ways for me to mitigate any of the damage I'm taking i.e. no shadows, counters, evasion, parries, guards.

This is why a PLD can't keep up once a DD caps hate they can keep it capped much easier than PLD, this sounds bad but at the same time from a design stand point it sounds correct, it means a DD has to hold back or they will die because the PLD won't be tanking. But there is the real problem DDs aren't as squishy as they used to be.

[Dale]

u just dont get it do u. there is no relevant mob in this game that a pld can tank with out support. If a mob can be shadow tanked (/nin) give any DD the same support you would give to a pld and the DD will tank just as good if not better. The same goes for blood tanking. as mentioned before getting -pdt% gear is a joke now, and given the same support pld loses this battle also.

Who gives a shit if a pld can cure itself in an event where said pld needs support? 90% of the time, if ur curing urself for survival AND u have support, ur getting cure bombed, in which case destroys ur arguement that u can use cure for hate. But then again if ur talking about cure spamming for hate/survival, DNC dose it better.

U see my last statement? ill repeat it, DNC dose it better. No matter what arguement u make, u can attach that statement to any other job and its the god honest truth. There are only a few exceptions, but thats barely a handful where Pld dose it better. And that is the real problem with the job, not lack of holding hate or JA's.

I don't know what you mean when you say "relevant" mob. I tank mobs all the time without healing support - but i suppose none of those are "relevant" in your opinion :)

Anyway, i'm getting tired of this silly argument. Play paladin like you want. If you don't want to heal yourself with your paladin then don't. If you want to be a dps with your paladin, have at it. If you think the job sucks and every other job is better, just play a different job. I don't see us getting anywhere on this, cause we aren't going to agree. And if SE wants to buff us, fine - I won't complain. I love buffs. Just don't say the job sucks or that every other job is better, cause that's what i got a beef with.

[Dale]

Dale,

I already stated that I misunderstood your stance on cures. Clearly you could not be advocating the use of cure kit spam when you don't understand what a cure kit is. Despite my having explained it twice.

To ensure I'm not misinterpreting anything else I'll lay out what I've understood about your image of PLD as a healer/tank. If you find any of this to be inaccurate, please correct it, and explain in more detail.

The healer/tank:

Blood tanks.
Cures when damaged.
TP's and ws's normally, but does not gear for DD.
I assume idles in PDT/DEF/VIT gear?
Subjob preference? I don't think it was stated aside from not /nin.
Policy on gear swaps?
Has no trouble holding hate, off DD that restrain themselves properly.
Anyone who disagrees with these points should go play mnk or nin?

Again please correct any misunderstandings on my part about this.

I'm also rather curious about the experiences that drive and support your play style. Could we hear a bit about your pld history?

Perhaps a bit on your:
NM/HNM tanking experience.
Event tanking(Dynamis,Limbus,Einhejar,etc)
NM solo.

Lastly, I recall you mentioned not having powerful atma yet. Can I then assume, that you have not personally experienced high end Abyssea PLD DD? Do the DD amongst your LS mates/friends also lack powerful atma?

Thank you for not splitting apart my post, I appreciate that :)

I'm not going to get into specific details about my paladin because I don't want this discussion to turn into a conversation about me. I like to keep things general.

I have no problem with paladins who want to gear for more damage. I have done it myself on occasion. My problem is when a paladin sees himself as nothing but a damage dealer, and refuses to use his cure spell, focusing all of his efforts into doing more damage.

When a Paladin starts behaving like that I feel they would be better off playing a different job. And people who play like that and fuss at SE because they can't compete with jobs built to do nothing but damage are mostly the people i'm telling should go play monk or warrior.

If you don't want to make healing an important part of your gameplay and instead focus entirely on doing as much damage as you can - I think probably the Paladin just isn't the job you should be playing. There are better job choices out there for that kind of gameplay. That's all i'm saying.

[Dale]

I highly doubt it works 50% of the time let alone 95% of the time assuming you have decent DDs.

On anything that isn't strong to physical damage my WAR averages 250+ a hit not counting crits or widowmaker's bonus, my MNK does 150ish per punch on average and gets 2 cycles to every 3 a PLD gets, keep in mind that's 4 hits vs. 3 hits not counting DA or kick attacks. That means I will be capping/recapping CE/VE hate faster than PLD even if they spam Cure IV on me unless there is 0 ways for me to mitigate any of the damage I'm taking i.e. no shadows, counters, evasion, parries, guards.

This is why a PLD can't keep up once a DD caps hate they can keep it capped much easier than PLD, this sounds bad but at the same time from a design stand point it sounds correct, it means a DD has to hold back or they will die because the PLD won't be tanking. But there is the real problem DDs aren't as squishy as they used to be.

This argument is silly. You act as if Paladins are weaklings and can't dish out healthy melee damage on their own. They can, especially if well-geared. It's not a comparison between a paladin's cures and a DD's offense, it's a comparison between a Paladin's offense + cures and a DD's offense.

But that aside, all of this really doesn't matter. Monks should be able to tank, as should warriors. Paladins can tank also. They are all tanks. Paladins have cures. Monks and warriors have higher offense. They all tank in their own way. I don't see the problem here.

[Zagen]

This argument is silly. You act as if Paladins are weaklings and can't dish out healthy melee damage on their own. They can, especially if well-geared. It's not a comparison between a paladin's cures and a DD's offense, it's a comparison between a Paladin's offense + cures and a DD's offense.

But that aside, all of this really doesn't matter. Monks should be able to tank, as should warriors. Paladins can tank also. They are all tanks. Paladins have cures. Monks and warriors have higher offense. They all tank in their own way. I don't see the problem here.

How is the argument that a DD can cap/recap hate faster than a PLD who is DDing and/or using Cure spells for hate silly? It isn't that PLD's can't deal damage its that they can't deal enough compared to other jobs.

It isn't just WAR and MNK I used those as reference because I played them recently. I've tanked better than PLD on BLU as well, my friend out tanks my PLD as well as several other PLDs we've PTed with on THF even when he Trick Attacks them. I've had DNCs who're setup to DD/tank hold better hate than PLDs in the group the few times we went with PLDs and DNC. Where does it stop as to who can or can't tank? I mean right now it's pretty much if you can DD better than PLD you can tank better than PLD.

I'd even dare say a SAM could out tank a PLD in Abyssea even those RR favors PLD assuming the SAM knows how to play SAM tank.

[Dale]

How is the argument that a DD can cap/recap hate faster than a PLD who is DDing and/or using Cure spells for hate silly? It isn't that PLD's can't deal damage its that they can't deal enough compared to other jobs.

It isn't just WAR and MNK I used those as reference because I played them recently. I've tanked better than PLD on BLU as well, my friend out tanks my PLD as well as several other PLDs we've PTed with on THF even when he Trick Attacks them. I've had DNCs who're setup to DD/tank hold better hate than PLDs in the group the few times we went with PLDs and DNC. Where does it stop as to who can or can't tank? I mean right now it's pretty much if you can DD better than PLD you can tank better than PLD.

I'd even dare say a SAM could out tank a PLD in Abyssea even those RR favors PLD assuming the SAM knows how to play SAM tank.

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.

[Greever]

I don't know what you mean when you say "relevant" mob. I tank mobs all the time without healing support - but i suppose none of those are "relevant" in your opinion :)

Anyway, i'm getting tired of this silly argument. Play paladin like you want. If you don't want to heal yourself with your paladin then don't. If you want to be a dps with your paladin, have at it. If you think the job sucks and every other job is better, just play a different job. I don't see us getting anywhere on this, cause we aren't going to agree.

relevant mob = any nm (should have said nm in previous post) that is worth killing for some sort of gain other then exp. ex: Rani, Alfard, Apademak, Dragua, Orthrus.

Not Exp mobs or teir 1 abyssea nm's...Id just love for u to say u tank any of those mobs w/o support lol.

Did i say anything about not healing myself as pld lol? U keep pushing the point that cure spammage is the way to go to tank, when its actually detremental when it comes to tanking. I am in no way saying that its bad to cure urself if need be, but depending on cure 4 to hold hate is useless.

Think about it for a few min, y did atonement enhance pld tanking? Could it be because when paired with a joyeuse a pld could pump out 750 dmg ws' in a very short amount of time?

[Greatguardian]

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.

I would agree with you if not for the fact that I know you're talking about Pld/War bloodtanking. I posted a thread with a link to Kaeko's blog for a reason, and I highly suggest you read through it. It's a long read, but it's worthwhile.

Simply put, you aren't gaining much/any Enmity by curing yourself when you take damage because the act of taking damage in the first place drops your Enmity levels. I leave the any in there because it is implied in some of your other posts that you do not gear swap or use macros at all, so it is highly unlikely you are putting enough Enmity+ in your cures to make up for the Enmity lost; that, or you are fulltiming Enmity and thus losing out on other important TP stats.

[Greever]

I thought the way you framed it was silly cause you neglected to point out a Paladin can dish out some respectable melee damage also and he has cures on top of that. So he can keep his hp topped off also, maintaining a high rate of enmity as well - similiar to what you are saying a warrior or monk can do by using shadows.

I guess it jsut depends what you mean when you say "out-tank". Im sure there are fights were monks and warriors can create more enmity than a Paladin. But there is a lot of fights where a Paladin can create more enmity than a monk or warrior as well. Quite a few mobs out there have insanely high physical defense. Just depends what you are up against, and I think you are exagerating how bad Paladins compare with other melee jobs.

name some of those other nm's plz. cause with the same support to kill said nm, a high end DD will do it better

[Dale]

relevant mob = any nm (should have said nm in previous post) that is worth killing for some sort of gain other then exp. ex: Rani, Alfard, Apademak, Dragua, Orthrus.

Not Exp mobs or teir 1 abyssea nm's...Id just love for u to say u tank any of those mobs w/o support lol.

Did i say anything about not healing myself as pld lol? U keep pushing the point that cure spammage is the way to go to tank, when its actually detremental when it comes to tanking. I am in no way saying that its bad to cure urself if need be, but depending on cure 4 to hold hate is useless.

Think about it for a few min, y did atonement enhance pld tanking? Could it be because when paired with a joyeuse a pld could pump out 750 dmg ws' in a very short amount of time?

I've killed plenty of NMs without healing support. I've killed NMs in campaigns without healing support. I"m new to abyssea, so i'm not sure what tier1 NMs are, but I killed some NM spider other day without any healing support. I can chain IT monsters without healing support. But all of this is besides the point, as your definition of what is "relevant" is way too limited for my tastes.

I think you underetsimate how well a paladin can sustain himself with heals. I don't know what you mean by "heal spammage" so i won't really comment only to say healing yourself to recover missing hp ins't a waste and certainly doesn't hurt the paladin's tanking.

I agree attonement deffinitely enhanced the pld tanking. That one was a game-changer. Not only does it allow you to do nice damage fast, but it also lets you gear more defensively - as you no longer need huge amounts of strength and attack to hit hard, plus it bypasses physical defense.

So i agree with you on attonment...but i have no clue how that takes away from the fact healing yourself to recover your hp is good. So the last part of you argument makes little sense to me. The small amount of time it takes away from your melee to heal yourself is deffinitely worth it. And coming from someone who uses attonement with a sword that hits more times than a joyeuse, I think i'm on solid ground with that conclusion.

Look. Play paladin your way and i'll play it my way. I can live with that. Just don't say the job sucks or is at the bottom of the pool, cause it isn't. The fact we have white magic does mean we need less support than other tanks, and that is our strength when compared to other tanks like monks and warriors. That was my point.

[Dale]

name some of those other nm's plz. cause with the same support to kill said nm, a high end DD will do it better

Really? Even a NM that is almost immune to physical damage? How would a monk or warrior do better on something like that then would a paladin who can use heals and attonement to create enmity? Say a NM elemental or turtle, something like that.

[Greatguardian]

Really? Even a NM that is almost immune to physical damage? How would a monk or warrior do better on something like that then would a paladin who can use heals and attonement to create enmity? Say a NM elemental or turtle, something like that.

I don't have any issues fighting turtles or elementals on MNK. I sit on over 1,000 Attack when I need to, idling at over 800 without berserk. Please read my previous post as well.

[Dale]

I don't have any issues fighting turtles or elementals on MNK. I sit on over 1,000 Attack when I need to, idling at over 800 without berserk. Please read my previous post as well.

How much do you hit a NM turtle or elemental for with your monk?

[Greatguardian]

How much do you hit a NM turtle or elemental for with your monk?

For more than my Almace PLD buddy does. Zing!

[Avarice]

For more than my Almace PLD buddy does. Zing!

Ha, this guy.

[Dale]

For more than my Almace PLD buddy does. Zing!

That was an evasive reply. Let me try again :)

How much does your monk hit a Nm turtle or elemental for?

[Greatguardian]

That was an evasive reply. Let me try again :)

How much does your monk hit a Nm turtle or elemental for?

Hell if I know. Which turtle/Elemental NM? Chukwa? Lacovie? Heroes of Abyssea VNMs? Adamantoise? They're not all the same. Pick one.

[Avarice]

That was an evasive reply. Let me try again :)


GG can't evade to save his life.

[Greatguardian]

GG can't evade to save his life.

:( Oh yeah, well well, according to the PLD forums your job sucks and you can't keep hate off me. So there!

[Dale]

Hell if I know. Which turtle/Elemental NM? Chukwa? Lacovie? Heroes of Abyssea VNMs? Adamantoise? They're not all the same. Pick one.

ok. Chukwa then. how much does your monk hit him for?

[Greatguardian]

ok. Chukwa then. how much does your monk hit him for?

idk, 150-200/punch with 2k-3k VSmite? Even if you picked Lacovie the numbers wouldn't be too different. I easily hit 5k-6k average VSmites on normal NMs and IT mobs.

[Avarice]

ok. Chukwa then. how much does your monk hit him for?

Putting aside that Monk is already among the top 3 DDs in game at the moment, he has Verethragna, so his numbers on most NMs are going to be in the 3000-5000+'s, even on Chukwa or Lacovie (who really aren't as "defenseful" as you'd think), whereas regular Monks with their Ascetic's Fury will probably be doing about half of that if lucky.

[Dale]

idk, 150-200/punch with 2k-3k VSmite? Even if you picked Lacovie the numbers wouldn't be too different. I easily hit 5k-6k average VSmites on normal NMs and IT mobs.

really, monks can hit it that hard? is that with or without atma. And do you hit elementals for that same kind of damage?

[Greatguardian]

really, monks can hit it that hard? is that with or without atma. And do you hit elementals for that same kind of damage?

Obviously it's with Atma since we're inside Abyssea and NMs are scaled up. I can hit 5k Smites outside Abyssea too with AF3+2 body/Impetus =/. And yes, I hit elementals and avatars and such for about the same, if not more, damage. Those are a lot easier to hit since they typically just have -50% PDT instead of high defense.

[Dale]

Putting aside that Monk is already among the top 3 DDs in game at the moment, he has Verethragna, so his numbers on most NMs are going to be in the 3000-5000+'s, even on Chukwa or Lacovie (who really aren't as "defenseful" as you'd think), whereas regular Monks with their Ascetic's Fury will probably be doing about half of that if lucky.

And how do you know how "defenseful" (i don't know why you said that in quotes, i never used such a word) i think they are?

I was just pulling mobs off the top of my head that had high defense. Stop trying to be so condescending.

[Dale]

Obviously it's with Atma since we're inside Abyssea and NMs are scaled up. I can hit 5k Smites outside Abyssea too with AF3+2 body/Impetus =/. And yes, I hit elementals and avatars and such for about the same, if not more, damage. Those are a lot easier to hit since they typically just have -50% PDT instead of high defense.

How much do you hit them without Atma?

Or an elemental let's say not inside abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

How much do you hit them without Atma?

Or an elemental let's say not inside abyssea.

I wouldn't be hitting Chukwa without Atma. False comparison to the extreme.

Adamantoise without Atma? About the same as Chukwa with Atma.

Elementals outside Abyssea are even easier, as I already mentioned. They don't have huge def, their def sucks. They just have -50% PDT. It's fairly easy to hit 1k-3k WS on them, depending on self-buffs.

[Dale]

I wouldn't be hitting Chukwa without Atma. False comparison to the extreme.

.

Ok that would explain it then. I had a hard time understanding how you could be hitting that turtle so hard, but we did the fight without any atma. So it takes you from not hitting to 200 damage a hit. Lol nice, i really do need to get me some of that.

[Greatguardian]

Ok that would explain it then. I had a hard time understanding how you could be hitting that turtle so hard, but we did the fight without any atma. So it takes you from not hitting to 200 damage a hit. Lol nice, i really do need to get me some of that

... No. For like the 20th time in two days, you completely misunderstood what I wrote.

"I wouldn't be hitting Chukwa without Atma." means I would absolutely not be dumb enough to go into Abyssea and fight an NM without equipping my Atma first. Why would I waste my time with that? Trying to compare anything in Abyssea with or without Atma is just asinine, since anyone with an ounce of sense would be equipping their Atma if they have it.

[Avarice]

And how do you know how "defenseful" (i don't know why you said that in quotes, i never used such a word) i think they are?

I was just pulling mobs off the top of my head that had high defense. Stop trying to be so condescending.

The statement was a generalized one, and not aimed at you specifically. I said 'defenseful' in quotation marks since it's not a real word in the English dictionary, thus by putting it in quotation marks I accept that it's not a real word but decide to use it anyway for lack of a better word coming to mind at the time of typing.

[Dale]

The statement was a generalized one, and not aimed at you specifically. I said 'defenseful' in quotation marks since it's not a real word in the English dictionary, thus by putting it in quotation marks I accept that it's not a real word but decide to use it anyway for lack of a better word coming to mind at the time of typing.

Alright, sorry i took it harder than you meant it then. Thought you were trying to make me look like an idiot by using words that do not exist and contributing them to me :)

[Dale]

... No. For like the 20th time in two days, you completely misunderstood what I wrote.

"I wouldn't be hitting Chukwa without Atma." means I would absolutely not be dumb enough to go into Abyssea and fight an NM without equipping my Atma first. Why would I waste my time with that? Trying to compare anything in Abyssea with or without Atma is just asinine, since anyone with an ounce of sense would be equipping their Atma if they have it.

It's not asinine lol Maybe they just started doing abyssea, and haven't had a chance to get atma yet.

[Greatguardian]

It's not asinine lol Maybe they just started doing abyssea, and haven't had a chance to get atma yet.

But sorry I misunderstood you :)

It doesn't bother me, but lack of Atmas doesn't speak for the job as a whole. A person in particular not having Atmas is fine. But that person wouldn't be a useful representative of damage on NMs either. There is the general case, and then the specific anecdotal case. For the purposes of job discussion, the general case is almost always a safer bet.

[Dale]

I would agree with you if not for the fact that I know you're talking about Pld/War bloodtanking. I posted a thread with a link to Kaeko's blog for a reason, and I highly suggest you read through it. It's a long read, but it's worthwhile.

Simply put, you aren't gaining much/any Enmity by curing yourself when you take damage because the act of taking damage in the first place drops your Enmity levels. I leave the any in there because it is implied in some of your other posts that you do not gear swap or use macros at all, so it is highly unlikely you are putting enough Enmity+ in your cures to make up for the Enmity lost; that, or you are fulltiming Enmity and thus losing out on other important TP stats.

I am not talking about pld/war blood tanking. Just to clear that up. I don't even know exactly what that term means.

And yes, i'm aware you lose enmity when you are hit. That is why healing yourself when you need to is so beneficial for a tank to do, as it helps recover the lost enmity. Obvioulsy if you were to just stand there after getting hit and not heal yourself you are going to lose more than if you had healed yourself. Therefore - it is wise to heal yourself as a paladin. That's all I am saying. It can be used effectively as an enmity tool, as well as a surivival tool. It's good. Paladins should use it.

As far as "blood tanking" as a pld/war, i'll leave that for your guide to discuss.

[Dale]

It doesn't bother me, but lack of Atmas doesn't speak for the job as a whole. A person in particular not having Atmas is fine. But that person wouldn't be a useful representative of damage on NMs either. There is the general case, and then the specific anecdotal case. For the purposes of job discussion, the general case is almost always a safer bet.

I'm not even sure what that meant. So i'll refrain from commenting at the risk of misunderstanding you again :)

But I will just say this. Even taking into account high end atma, the monk may be able to put out more damage than a Paladin - but he will never be able to heal himself effectively. And I do think this advantage is overlooked by too many paladins, and does contribute to this self-loathing many paladins seem to have about their job. It is a real and significant advantage they have over other tanks with higher offenses - and does help balance it out.

[Zagen]

But I will just say this. Even taking into account high end atma, the monk may be able to put out more damage than a Paladin - but he will never be able to heal himself effectively. And I do think this advantage is overlooked by too many paladins, and does contribute to this self-loathing many paladins seem to have about their job. It is a real and significant advantage they have over other tanks with higher offenses - and does help balance it out.

Please read this: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3450-Enmity-How-It-Works-(All-Paladins-Should-Read-This)

1 Cure IV when accounting for casting time (2.5 seconds) and casting/JA delay (2 seconds) will essentially cost you 2 attack rounds with Haste/Marches. If your PLD can swing for 150 damage or more you will generate more hate than a Cure IV for 450 cast on a 75 will do.

When you're with a group or just a WHM being able to heal yourself effectively as you keep calling it when you're the tank means nothing if it gets you less hate than your own DDing will get you because the more you cure yourself the sooner you're going to lose hate.

[Dale]

Please read this: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/3450-Enmity-How-It-Works-(All-Paladins-Should-Read-This)

1 Cure IV when accounting for casting time (2.5 seconds) and casting/JA delay (2 seconds) will essentially cost you 2 attack rounds with Haste/Marches. If your PLD can swing for 150 damage or more you will generate more hate than a Cure IV for 450 cast on a 75 will do.

When you're with a group or just a WHM being able to heal yourself effectively as you keep calling it when you're the tank means nothing if it gets you less hate than your own DDing will get you because the more you cure yourself the sooner you're going to lose hate.

Zagen, even in this rare situation you are theorizing where a paladin has all these buffs and great DD gear to where he could possibly do so much damage in 2.5 seconds that the enmity it would create would be more than a Cure 4, you are forgetting one important point. It isn't just creating enmity, it is also restoring your HP - which is what keeps you alive :)

It's worth doing. Use your heals. Otherwise you are better off just being a full-blown damage dealer.

[Zagen]

Zagen, even in this rare situation you are theorizing where a paladin has all these buffs and great DD gear to where he could possibly do so much damage in 2.5 seconds that the enmity it would create would be more than a Cure 4, you are forgetting one important point. It isn't just creating enmity, it is also restoring your HP - which is what keeps you alive :)

It's worth doing. Use your heals. Otherwise you are better off just being a full-blown damage dealer.

I'm theorizing that a PLD would have 3 buffs from 2 jobs and technically it could be 1 player on BRD/WHM doing the buffs. My PLD on a good amount of NMs in Abyssea can hit 150+ on normal hits that doesn't count crits which run 200+ and my PLD still needs work wen it comes to DD setup. That's just with Atma/Cruor/Food I don't get where you feel there are tons of buffs that are rare.

This shouldn't be a rare situation unless you're small manning something at which point a MNK/NIN/THF/DNC is a better tank than PLD because the damage dealt is more hate gained/regained than your cure IV. Keep in mind the fewer buffs you have the more the game currently favors MNK/DNC, NIN/DNC, DNC/NIN, and even THF/NIN depending on the NM.

When many NMs have TP moves that can do 1-2k+ your Cure IV isn't going to keep you alive or help counteract the damage you just took. The hate you gain/regain from meleeing instead of locking yourself in a Cure IV will help make sure your hate is above a WHM who just cast Cure VI on you to recover the HP you lost.

I've tanked many NMs on PLD, MNK, WAR, DNC, and even a few on BLU. All in hopes to have fun doing it while learning how each job can best tank in general because I do find it fun. PLD spamming cures is a dead idea and has been for a long time.

Edit: Food for thought with a 224 delay weapon and 0 Haste which is well frankly unheard of, 224 / 60 = 3.74 seconds since your Cure IV takes 4.5 seconds it still breaks 2 attack cycles on a sword since you can't have 25% of an attack cycle.

[Dale]

I'm theorizing that a PLD would have 3 buffs from 2 jobs and technically it could be 1 player on BRD/WHM doing the buffs. My PLD on a good amount of NMs in Abyssea can hit 150+ on normal hits that doesn't count crits which run 200+ and my PLD still needs work wen it comes to DD setup. That's just with Atma/Cruor/Food I don't get where you feel there are tons of buffs that are rare.

This shouldn't be a rare situation unless you're small manning something at which point a MNK/NIN/THF/DNC is a better tank than PLD because the damage dealt is more hate gained/regained than your cure IV. Keep in mind the fewer buffs you have the more the game currently favors MNK/DNC, NIN/DNC, DNC/NIN, and even THF/NIN depending on the NM.

When many NMs have TP moves that can do 1-2k+ your Cure IV isn't going to keep you alive or help counteract the damage you just took. The hate you gain/regain from meleeing instead of locking yourself in a Cure IV will help make sure your hate is above a WHM who just cast Cure VI on you to recover the HP you lost.

I've tanked many NMs on PLD, MNK, WAR, DNC, and even a few on BLU. All in hopes to have fun doing it while learning how each job can best tank in general because I do find it fun. PLD spamming cures is a dead idea and has been for a long time.

Well just the presence of a bard period makes it a rare occasion if you ask me.

And again with this "spamming cure" thing. I never know how to respond to this comment, but if you are suggesting Paladins using their heal spells is a dead idea and has been dead for a long time, maybe you should start waking it back up cause i coudn't do 99% of the things i do without it :)

[Zagen]

Well just the presence of a bard period makes it a rare occasion if you ask me.

And again with this "spamming cure" thing. I never know how to respond to this comment, but if you are suggesting Paladins using their heal spells is a dead idea and has been dead for a long time, maybe you should start waking it back up cause i coudn't do 99% of the things i do without it :)

Perfect example the Cockatrice NM in Abyssea - Altepa that drops PLD/RDM/THF/SAM Hand Seals I went MNK/DNC with a group that was MNK, WHM, THF, PLD, BLM. The PLD is the one that usually tanks a lot of NMs when we're holding them to get !!s we need. Also decently geared/skilled when it comes to a survivalist PLD (lacks a good DD set that is decent IMO) and the only time he tanked while using Cure IV as needed on my MNK was when cover was up. I tanked all of the fights many of them just by meleeing.

Can you explain what happened? I mean he was curing me the WHM was a Dualbox just there for Stona and "Oh Crap" moments.

Edit: The moment you cast 1 Cure IV you've lost more hate than I can gain from meleeing on PLD so Spamming can range from once in a while to every time it is ready to go. It sucks for hate gain period unless you bring a level 30 mule and cure cheat with them.

[Dale]

Perfect example the Cockatrice NM in Abyssea - Altepa that drops PLD/RDM/THF/SAM Hand Seals I went MNK/DNC with a group that was MNK, WHM, THF, PLD, BLM. The PLD is the one that usually tanks a lot of NMs when we're holding them to get !!s we need. Also decently geared/skilled when it comes to a survivalist PLD (lacks a good DD set that is decent IMO) and the only time he tanked while using Cure IV as needed on my MNK was when cover was up. I tanked all of the fights many of them just by meleeing.

Can you explain what happened? I mean he was curing me the WHM was a Dualbox just there for Stona and "Oh Crap" moments.

Edit: The moment you cast 1 Cure IV you've lost more hate than I can gain from meleeing on PLD so Spamming can range from once in a while to every time it is ready to go. It sucks for hate gain period unless you bring a level 30 mule and cure cheat with them.

Well i can't really comment on this, i've never fought the cockatrice NM thingy.

I did however fight some spider NM in abyssea that dropped a seal for ninja and dancer, and would have never been able to kill it had I not used my healing spells to keep myself alive :)

Look - if you dont' want to heal on your paladin and think it's a waste that's your business. I think it's silly and see no value in playing a Paladin if you aren't going to use your healing spells, but that is - afterall - just my opinion. There is turning into a dead end argument, case you are never going to convince me healing isn't worth doing and I guess i'm never going to convince you healing is worth doing.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

[Zagen]

Well i can't really comment on this, i've never fought the cockatrice NM thingy.

I did however fight some spider NM in abyssea that dropped a seal for ninja and dancer, and would have never been able to kill it had I not used my healing spells to keep myself alive :)

Look - if you dont' want to heal on your paladin and think it's a waste that's your business. I think it's silly and see no value in playing a Paladin if you aren't going to use your healing spells, but that is - afterall - just my opinion. There is turning into a dead end argument, case you are never going to convince me healing isn't worth doing and I guess i'm never going to convince you healing is worth doing.

Let's just agree to disagree on this one.

The topic is on Enmity >.> I'd hope you could see that I'm pointing out cures are pointless because they cause you to gain less hate than the melee swings you'd get to swing if you didn't cast cures. When you have support you shouldn't have moments where you need to cure much.

But as you said all you care about is using your cures because you want to regardless of how they affect Enmity and efficiency as a tank.

[Greever]

I've killed plenty of NMs without healing support. I've killed NMs in campaigns without healing support. I"m new to abyssea, so i'm not sure what tier1 NMs are, but I killed some NM spider other day without any healing support. I can chain IT monsters without healing support. But all of this is besides the point, as your definition of what is "relevant" is way too limited for my tastes.

I think you underetsimate how well a paladin can sustain himself with heals. I don't know what you mean by "heal spammage" so i won't really comment only to say healing yourself to recover missing hp ins't a waste and certainly doesn't hurt the paladin's tanking.

I agree attonement deffinitely enhanced the pld tanking. That one was a game-changer. Not only does it allow you to do nice damage fast, but it also lets you gear more defensively - as you no longer need huge amounts of strength and attack to hit hard, plus it bypasses physical defense.

So i agree with you on attonment...but i have no clue how that takes away from the fact healing yourself to recover your hp is good. So the last part of you argument makes little sense to me. The small amount of time it takes away from your melee to heal yourself is deffinitely worth it. And coming from someone who uses attonement with a sword that hits more times than a joyeuse, I think i'm on solid ground with that conclusion.

Look. Play paladin your way and i'll play it my way. I can live with that. Just don't say the job sucks or is at the bottom of the pool, cause it isn't. The fact we have white magic does mean we need less support than other tanks, and that is our strength when compared to other tanks like monks and warriors. That was my point.

ok, i think ur misunderstanding where im comming from. when u started this post it was about tanking. in my world tanking means holding hate while others in your party attack the mob. not soloing. If ur soloing, other jobs just do it better lol.

but seriously, i still stand by my orignal argument. In a situation (situation where u have support = ls events, dynamis, einherjar...basically endgame)where u have support, other jobs just do it better then pld. and if soloing, other jobs just do it better too lol.

And about atonement, idk y you would gear for def for it. to max out atonement haste/acc was the way to go lol...just like any DD knows, more DPS = more ws = mob dead faster. Thats y alot of DD jobs make x-hit builds, that means they can ws more often (mainly 2handers i think) or jobs like nin and mnk hit the haste cap to get as many attack rounds in as little time as possible. Again this was before abyssea.

Idk about u, but back when i played pld (pre abyssea)i had about 7 full gearsets for pld and always carried 5 of them on me at all times. (haste, fastcast, cure kit, -pdt, enmity, -mdt/+mdb and fire resist) and depending on the situation i geared accordingly.

but like i said before, depending on the situation...other jobs just do it better.

[Greever]

after reading the last few pages, it clear he dosent do endgame in anyway. Otherwise i think he would understand what most of us are trying to explain lol.