Real PvP can we have it PLEASE S.E

[wizzitywillican]

I have been sayin for a long long time that all this game needs to be perfect is some kind of PvP that we can use anywhere (exept mabee in citys) some option where u could go hostile with another player like other games do and they could accept your battle request doesnt seem like such a hard thing to implament but I belive it would remove @ least 80% of the arguing in this game you could just fight over who gets the camp or nm and be done with it. if someone calls you a gimp you could just go hostile and prove whos gimp.. IMO his would be the best update to the game ever !! EVER !!!
please post up here if you agree !!

[Zarchery]

What exactly is wrong with Brenner?

[Arcon]

What exactly is wrong with Brenner?

Stupid rules/gameplay, takes ages to set up.

[Rewyen]

If it could be toggled (like WoW), I'd be all for it. I can think of a few people that deserved a good jump to the face at one time or another. Brenner is alright, but as was mentioned, it takes forever to set it up and you don't get much in the way of variety.

[Alhanelem]

Ballista > Brenner

But no, we don't want anywhere PvP. We just want the PvP that already exists to be improved.

[Karbuncle]

I wouldn't mind an improvement to the existing PVP System.

Honestly, If you want a World-PVP Game go play WoW. I'm not saying that sarcastically either. WoW does PvP Really well, sometimes a bit one-sided, But well.

FFXI was originally designed without PVP in mind, It was designed purely as a PVE Game. PVP Was added (Half-assedly) At a later time due to some amount of demand for it. Now that its in the game, Would be real nice to see some adjustments. Unfortunately they missed their opportunity to add anything meaningful across Mid-tear range (30~70) In terms of armor cause no one has jobs those levels anymore >_>. (Can't believe i'm almost wanting Abyssea to be 65+...)

Either way, They could improve on Ballista, But it would take some time... Adding more Abdjahlis(w/e) Zones would be a nice start. Toggling PVP in open world could be enjoyable... For some... I think I'd not have a problem with it really, It won't effect me at all so long as i keep it toggled off, and i can laugh at the Ethugs who challenge me to pvp when i claim a mob they want.

So, I'm all for it now :D

But it will never happen, because its not within SE's vision of FFXI. which Ironically was suppose to be "Teamwork" which is now apparently "Battle Royale and F**k you" (Relic/myth/emp-99trials hi). So who knows, at this point maybe they'll just introduce a PVP Based Lotting system, They want us to kill eachother for 1 impossible to obtain item, Maybe they'll just take it a step further and have us literally kill eachother for it.

Finish killing Arch Dynamis Lord > Free for all Last man standing gets the 99 Relic Item.

Edit; *Sorry* i brought my 99Relic Rage into this thread. If you dont wanna see it, pretty much just ignore the last paragraph ^^

[Liir]

Can the devs provide any insight on the state of Ballista/Brenner/Diorama ever receiving an update?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Can the devs provide any insight on the state of Ballista/Brenner/Diorama ever receiving an update?No point in updating pointless things no one but the smallest persentage of people have an interest in. But SE has proven they like to waste time on crap, so it's possible.
Also...
If you want PvP, GO PLAY A PVP GAME. -_-

[Arcon]

Also...
If you want PvP, GO PLAY A PVP GAME. -_-

I could point to any of your posts of you complaining in another thread and say "If you want X go play a game that does X", and the sentiment would be equally retarded, which is why I won't do that. I'd just like to point out just how retarded your attempt at being clever really is, which is very, very retarded.

[Liir]

No point in updating pointless things no one but the smallest persentage of people have an interest in. But SE has proven they like to waste time on crap, so it's possible.
Also...
If you want PvP, GO PLAY A PVP GAME. -_-

The only reason I even have a glimmer of hope that there could be an update for PvP is because they accounced something about Pankration. Ballista has been around much longer than Pankration, and has seen far more attention than Pankration ever did.

[saevel]

The only reason I even have a glimmer of hope that there could be an update for PvP is because they accounced something about Pankration. Ballista has been around much longer than Pankration, and has seen far more attention than Pankration ever did.

Ok I'll meet you with whatever job combo you bring

And proceed to destroy you on RDM/BLM. (BLU and PLD are also good)

The jobs in this game are not balanced around PvP, certain jobs have a ridiculous advantage, so much that SE had to create NM's that are immune to that jobs abilities. A RDM/BLM would solo any player the same way they solo'd all the old NM's and HNMs, before SE made everything immune to grav / bind / silence / para. It would be a boring long 15+ min fight, but the results are inevitable, unless the RDM in question was a noob and tried to melee you.

Then you have BLU's, who can run how to someone and kill them in seconds while keeping them stun locked the entire fight. Between HB and SL a BLU can effectively stun lock anything, then just use high damage spells in between with Disseverment being the first one out the gate (18hp/tick poison says hi). With Q.Cont, Q.Strike, A.Spikes and even G.Rush your pretty much going to die without ever using a single ability.

And finally the most hilarious, the PLD. I've personally witnessed a VS MNK try to one on one an Aegis PLD (not even brOchain). The MNK kept losing over and over again. The last fight the PLD disengaged and just stood there for 5 min letting the MNK beat on him, just to prove the point. The only thing's that can kill a PLD are a zerging BLU or a kiting RDM, and even then it's gonna be a ridiculously long fight.

To fix this, SE would need to nerf RDM, BLU, PLD into the ground which would make them useless in PvP content (hero to zero status). Not much they can do really.

[Liir]

The games were designed to be team events. Thereby making teamwork a significant factor in playing. It doesn't particularly matter that a 1 vs 1 scenario is unbalanced.

[saevel]

The games were designed to be team events. Thereby making teamwork a significant factor in playing. It doesn't particularly matter that a 1 vs 1 scenario is unbalanced.

Except those jobs I mentioned above would decimate a team of two to three members.

RDM/BLM and BLU both have aoe sleepga. RDM particularly can CC multiple entities.

So take any three members you want, and put them against a PT of RDM + PLD + BLU and absolutely nothing could win.

[Rohelius]

You say it like AoE sleepga >All.... Poison pots anyone? lol rdm-pld-blu are good strong 1v1 but in team battles good strategy beats anything, this is after all Final Fantasy.

[Liir]

Except those jobs I mentioned above would decimate a team of two to three members.

RDM/BLM and BLU both have aoe sleepga. RDM particularly can CC multiple entities.

So take any three members you want, and put them against a PT of RDM + PLD + BLU and absolutely nothing could win.

So? Ballista already has measures in place to reduce the effects of sleep and other enfeebling spells. And at this stage of the game, it won't be hard to get any particular jobs on one's team anyway. Again though, this point doesn't even matter...as what Rohelius says is exactly the point:


in team battles good strategy beats anything

This is what true Ballista followers love about the PvP content in FFXI. We could care less about what happens in 1 vs 1 scenarios.

I personally am not advocating a sort of 1 vs 1 WoW type design of PvP. I'm simply asking for even a modest update to Ballista/Brenner/Diorama to bring it up to speed with current content. There are people who very much enjoy the team-based PvP that these events offer.

[saevel]

You say it like AoE sleepga >All.... Poison pots anyone? lol rdm-pld-blu are good strong 1v1 but in team battles good strategy beats anything, this is after all Final Fantasy.

I understand your thinking that sleepga is used to sleep people, it's not.

Sleepga is used because not only does it wipe shadows, but it also cause's the sleep status effect. Even with a DoT on it will take one game tick to wake up, meaning that for approx 3s your standing there slept. This gives the RDM time to apply silence / paralyze to block reapplication of utsusemi and to force you to go onto the defense. After you wake up the RDM's next move will be Sleep 1, followed by bind or grav. Then it turns into a slow drawn out kiting match where the RDM is keeping you debuffed (silence / para / slow / poison II) and leeching your HP away with Drain / Aspir. Eventually you will die, it's only a matter of time. Sab Poison II is 20hp/tick, followed by Bio II for 5~6 and three of the ele debuffs for 5~6 each. That much -HP/tick is going to kill even the Aegis PLD tank from earlier, the one that sat there and had a HF VS MNK beat on him for five min while disengaged.

RDM/BLM is the cheapest pvp combo in the game, the RDM job itself was so bad that SE had to make nearly every NM created in the last few years immune to all their abilities.

When your talking "team work" you can spout out about strategy all you want. Ultimately it'll be three vs three, meaning no matter how you stack one team to kill a single RDM, the RDM/BLM's team will have two more people. Imagine that monstrously annoying debuff from above, but coupled with a BLU running up and killing you in under 10s while keeping you stunned.

BLU looks like,
A.Claws (remove shadows)
Head Butt
Disseverment (high damage, 18hp/tick poison)
CA, Efflux Q.Continum
Sudden Lunge
A.Spikes

And if for some reason your ~still~ alive at this point, finish with Quadra Strike and possibly a Goblin Rush.

Heck RDM/BLM + BLU x 2, the BLU's zerg down two other team members, the RDM kites the last until the BLU's are finished. No matter how you shuffle it around, RDM BLU and PLD are so incredibly powerful vs squishy things (read: players) that they'll always win.

Wait .. you think it's unfair that the BLU destroyed your WHM before bothering with the MNK or SAM on your team? You think it's not right that the RDM kept your two heavy hitters enfeebled into oblivion while the BLU's worked over your healer, then moved onto each of them in turn. That is how PvP goes, the weakest members will always be picked off first.

[Urteil]

I understand your thinking that sleepga is used to sleep people, it's not.

Sleepga is used because not only does it wipe shadows, but it also cause's the sleep status effect. Even with a DoT on it will take one game tick to wake up, meaning that for approx 3s your standing there slept. This gives the RDM time to apply silence / paralyze to block reapplication of utsusemi and to force you to go onto the defense. After you wake up the RDM's next move will be Sleep 1, followed by bind or grav. Then it turns into a slow drawn out kiting match where the RDM is keeping you debuffed (silence / para / slow / poison II) and leeching your HP away with Drain / Aspir. Eventually you will die, it's only a matter of time. Sab Poison II is 20hp/tick, followed by Bio II for 5~6 and three of the ele debuffs for 5~6 each. That much -HP/tick is going to kill even the Aegis PLD tank from earlier, the one that sat there and had a HF VS MNK beat on him for five min while disengaged.

RDM/BLM is the cheapest pvp combo in the game, the RDM job itself was so bad that SE had to make nearly every NM created in the last few years immune to all their abilities.

When your talking "team work" you can spout out about strategy all you want. Ultimately it'll be three vs three, meaning no matter how you stack one team to kill a single RDM, the RDM/BLM's team will have two more people. Imagine that monstrously annoying debuff from above, but coupled with a BLU running up and killing you in under 10s while keeping you stunned.

BLU looks like,
A.Claws (remove shadows)
Head Butt
Disseverment (high damage, 18hp/tick poison)
CA, Efflux Q.Continum
Sudden Lunge
A.Spikes

And if for some reason your ~still~ alive at this point, finish with Quadra Strike and possibly a Goblin Rush.

Heck RDM/BLM + BLU x 2, the BLU's zerg down two other team members, the RDM kites the last until the BLU's are finished. No matter how you shuffle it around, RDM BLU and PLD are so incredibly powerful vs squishy things (read: players) that they'll always win.

Wait .. you think it's unfair that the BLU destroyed your WHM before bothering with the MNK or SAM on your team? You think it's not right that the RDM kept your two heavy hitters enfeebled into oblivion while the BLU's worked over your healer, then moved onto each of them in turn. That is how PvP goes, the weakest members will always be picked off first.

I care about 1v1 because a person who can stand against all is much better on a team than someone who can hardly stand on their own two feet. Teams are often used to hide your shortcomings and take place in victories that weren't really yours.

That being said, I am very good on a team, and I enjoy team Ballista. However quite frankly most of you including the guy I quote have no idea what you are talking about.


The fact that you'd sub BLM on RDM means that you're terrible, this is the problem with amateurs go around spouting opinions that cloud everyone else's judgement, irresponsible.

Your ideas around BLU revolve around physical spells which have short casting range and can easily be avoided by movement.

What kind of shit BLU doesn't use CC spells and expect someone to stand still near them, where are the magical blue spells. You didn't even mention Absolute Terror which is the REAL broken thing about BLU. The reason why the perception of "PvP isn't balanced" isn't because of the basic problems that come into every MMORPG, its because people like you come around and spout torrents of feces that people believe. Honestly there is pretty good balance, where many jobs considered to only "support" stand a hell of a chance against more "traditional" jobs and through proper gear choices you can take enfeebling power away from jobs that rely on it.

Get resistance gear, explore the options like CHR meva weapons vs enfeebling happy targets, or Eva swords for martial jobs, get outside of the box.


/SCH makes Sleepga worthless you really should be using break.

Are you living in 2007? And even then your strategy is pure penis.

What kind of piss WHM are you talking about? WHM can easily hit 50% pdt self haste buff against all debuffs and have decent WS with Flash Nova (unavoidable, magic damage they can rotate with flash.)

Bard is crazy with Duradabla with empyrean/mandau. They can hit 50% pdt, debuff you into oblivion and rotate dispels rendering buffs worthless, NEARLY IMMUNE TO SILENCE without gear, and on top of that they have access to AoE/ Single target light sleep and Dark sleep if they sub scholar. Oh and you can't interrupt their spells unless you time stun/whatever perfectly because of the bar finishes and they are un-stunned it fires anyway.

Bard can rotate 3 powerful songs to cater itself to any target

Transfer to Phoenix and if you can beat my Dark Knight I'll give you 41 100 Byne Bills, let's record it.
I bet you don't even have a Flawless ribbon or augmented Vunkerl Islet rings, and from what it sounds like you don't know the value of -DT gear.

Mana wall + -DT gear on a BLM? Get out of here.

You sir need to sit down, or transfer and fight me in about 25 minutes.
I'll bend you over 1v1., even a COR/SCH would just blow through this nonsense. Shit.

Bring: BLU/SCH RDM/BLM RDM/SCH PLD or whatever
And I hope you have a Tizona, Aegis + Excal/Burtgang or something fabulous.

[Snowmoofin]

I barely pvp and I can tell you Saevel that is an over simplistic view of pvp so much can easily can wrong in your battle plan there, break, sleep, getting your mp aspired away, etc. also why use asuran claws, there are cheaper faster spells to do the same job like delta thrust which comes with a handy plague. BLUs are a powerful job don't get me wrong but any good pvper will know blus weakness is range, its very easy to run out of range of most of our spells or to just aspir our limited mp pool away. Even the one "broken spell" we have in pvp absolute terror is easy to just run from.

Not only that but you neglected water bomb which is a solid silence spell that does a bit of knowledge and decent range. And you didn't mention pinecone bomb which gives you times to set up aa spell or give time to put up occultation or barrier tusk or cocoon.

[Zaknafein]

Did some Brenner last night with LSmates one of which went rdm. Sure while Rdm is beastly in PvP it is hardly unbeatable, especially as was mentioned previously. "Teamwork." Although I suppose it is too much of a stretch to expect people to work together in PvP when they are clamoring to do everything else in a MMO by themselves with their 3 mules. Well news flash... that sort of playstyle isn't going to help you in PvP.

Anyways we had a blast last night. Nothing in FFXI will ever give you the rush you feel when facing another player(s). It almost feels like a different game, because your strategies, and approach are so different from the mindless zerging/procing of normal PvE. It is a fantastic way to get to know people, and really gives the game experience a new leash on life for players bored to tears with repetitive collection of magian blah blah blah.

If you don't like PvP fine. Congratulations even. The fact is though if it was given some attention, and revamped to be more accessible with less hassle people would do it more often. W/e resources spent on it pay dividends, because it is the epitome of "reusable content" a.k.a. MMO gold.

No matter how many times you have PvP'd when you face someone using a different strategy or job combo it is unlike previous experiences.

[Urteil]

I thought Lakshmi was known for its PvP.

It could be quite possible that Saveal Saveeal whatever, is the worst PvP'er/Player on the planet.

I'm half expecting to hear shit like "haste takes time to proc" or "double attack gear is better than haste before haste cap" or "fSTR DON'T MEAN SHIT."


I keep re-reading these posts trying to see if I'm misunderstanding them, then I saw the impossible folks, something I thought only existed in the fevered dreams of gnomish mad-men.

Somebody actually wasting Saboteur on Poison. Not paralyze, silence. Poison:


A Sab Poison II is 20hp/tick, followed by Bio II for 5~6 and three of the ele debuffs for 5~6 each. That much -HP/tick is going to kill even the Aegis PLD tank from earlier, the one that sat there and had a HF VS MNK beat on him for five min while disengaged.


http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c5/Sakaio/wtfisthisshit.jpg

[Jackaverted]

Sleepga is used because not only does it wipe shadows, but it also cause's the sleep status effect. Even with a DoT on it will take one game tick to wake up, meaning that for approx 3s your standing there slept. This gives the RDM time to apply silence / paralyze to block reapplication of utsusemi and to force you to go onto the defense. After you wake up the RDM's next move will be Sleep 1, followed by bind or grav.

If your intent is to wipe shadows, as a Red Mage you have Diaga which has a casting time of 1.5 seconds (half the sleepga casting time) for 12 MP and a very quick recast timer. Because of that, you shouldn't need to worry about landing Silence /immediately/, instead your first move should usually be Gravity. Even if you silence an opponent that relies on shadows, they can just flee away in attempt to waste the duration partially. With Gravity they cannot flee away, nor can they get close enough to you in order to start pressuring you into defensive action. This is also a wonderful time to implement Saboteur, as it enhances Gravity to the point of near-immobility. And if they get shadows up again, oh look Diaga is back up and now all shadow timers are down, allowing for enfeebling without needing to immediately silence. Addle+Slow combination sends recast timers straight to hell. Or, you can even Diaga > Break (since the DoT damage from Diaga does not cancel Break) and have enough time to land every enfeeble you wish.


Then it turns into a slow drawn out kiting match where the RDM is keeping you debuffed (silence / para / slow / poison II) and leeching your HP away with Drain / Aspir. Eventually you will die, it's only a matter of time. Sab Poison II is 20hp/tick, followed by Bio II for 5~6 and three of the ele debuffs for 5~6 each. That much -HP/tick is going to kill even the Aegis PLD tank from earlier, the one that sat there and had a HF VS MNK beat on him for five min while disengaged.

DoT kiting is also not a very reliable option for PvP. Even if you can successfully keep a target away from you for a while, resistance to Gravity/Bind would skyrocket too quickly to be able to maintain distance for fifteen minutes. There is really no "eventually," the longer the fights last, the weaker an enfeebler will become. To be honest someone could even allow a Red Mage to kite him at the beginning, just to build resistance to major enfeebles and be able to attack without being impeded.


Sab Poison II is 20hp/tick

What is this, I don't even.

[saevel]

Did some Brenner last night with LSmates one of which went rdm. Sure while Rdm is beastly in PvP it is hardly unbeatable, especially as was mentioned previously. "Teamwork." Although I suppose it is too much of a stretch to expect people to work together in PvP when they are clamoring to do everything else in a MMO by themselves with their 3 mules. Well news flash... that sort of playstyle isn't going to help you in PvP.

Anyways we had a blast last night. Nothing in FFXI will ever give you the rush you feel when facing another player(s). It almost feels like a different game, because your strategies, and approach are so different from the mindless zerging/procing of normal PvE. It is a fantastic way to get to know people, and really gives the game experience a new leash on life for players bored to tears with repetitive collection of magian blah blah blah.

If you don't like PvP fine. Congratulations even. The fact is though if it was given some attention, and revamped to be more accessible with less hassle people would do it more often. W/e resources spent on it pay dividends, because it is the epitome of "reusable content" a.k.a. MMO gold.

No matter how many times you have PvP'd when you face someone using a different strategy or job combo it is unlike previous experiences.


Let me guess .... they tried to melee.

RDM should never melee in PvP, they should be kiting and treating other players as NM's with 1600~2000HP.

"Teamwork" means jack squat because no matter what you do on one side, the other side can do as well. It won't be three vs one RDM, it'll be three vs one RDM + two BLU, or some other combination. What your saying is that multiple people beat a single RDM, but you completely forget that the RDM / BLU / PLD has two other players with them.

The whole point of all this is that FFXI is balanced around PvE, players teaming up vs horribly overpowered monsters. PvP isn't going to work due to how the abilities and specializations were divided up amongst the jobs. Right now PvP seems "fun" because there is no reward. The moment they include someone on the level of a VWNM body's into the event, you'll see a flood of players. Players will quickly figure out that if they play as groups of RDM / BLU / PLD's they will win the most and therefor get the most points for their gear. Players who do not have those jobs leveled / geared will feel bad as their left out / behind and get beaten constantly.

[Urteil]

A whole bunch of illogical shit.

I'm talking about a single person killing a single Red Mage.
As in 1 vs. 1
In case you can't understand that's a single person fighting another single person.
If you aren't still on board, let's represent people as oranges. You'd have two oranges in your basket.
And to get more specific, my Dark Knight vs your mythical invincible nonsense.


You haven't transferred to get your easy 41 100 byne bills yet. Fuck it. I'll give you 61 I was going to turn them in tonight to the Goblin anyway.




*** There's also a lot of items in this game that make very little sense. I call them Ballista items, go look at equipment like the Jurfu's cloak or Arete Del Sol, or the weird ass augments they put on Abyssea items - there's more balancing than you think.

[saevel]

If your intent is to wipe shadows, as a Red Mage you have Diaga which has a casting time of 1.5 seconds (half the sleepga casting time) for 12 MP and a very quick recast timer. Because of that, you shouldn't need to worry about landing Silence /immediately/, instead your first move should usually be Gravity. Even if you silence an opponent that relies on shadows, they can just flee away in attempt to waste the duration partially. With Gravity they cannot flee away, nor can they get close enough to you in order to start pressuring you into defensive action. This is also a wonderful time to implement Saboteur, as it enhances Gravity to the point of near-immobility. And if they get shadows up again, oh look Diaga is back up and now all shadow timers are down, allowing for enfeebling without needing to immediately silence. Addle+Slow combination sends recast timers straight to hell. Or, you can even Diaga > Break (since the DoT damage from Diaga does not cancel Break) and have enough time to land every enfeeble you wish.



DoT kiting is also not a very reliable option for PvP. Even if you can successfully keep a target away from you for a while, resistance to Gravity/Bind would skyrocket too quickly to be able to maintain distance for fifteen minutes. There is really no "eventually," the longer the fights last, the weaker an enfeebler will become. To be honest someone could even allow a Red Mage to kite him at the beginning, just to build resistance to major enfeebles and be able to attack without being impeded.



What is this, I don't even.

You don't have a clue on RDM for PvP. Have you ~ever~ fought a MNK or BLU before?

The gradual resistance is very slow. You'll get more then enough spells off to kill the target before resistance every becomes an issue. The whole point of those spells is to reduce the options available to the player and force them to spend their time on items and not combating you. You deliberately avoided addressing the real reason you use sleep, the stun effect. If the other player hasn't used a poison pot, that's just a bonus. You kill them with drain / aspir and DoT's over time, typically within 5 min but someone with a ton of items can last 10 min.

Poison II is 10hp/tick for 120 seconds, 40 ticks for 400 damage.

Sab doubles both the duration and DoT effect of Poison II. You get 20hp/tick at 240 seconds, 80 ticks for 1600 damage. Combined with drain spam it means your target eventually dies. This is for a one vs one contest where your just running them around. Which is ridiculously easy to do. In a team vs team fight, you would Sab Paralyze II onto the MNK, DNC, SAM or whomever on the other team relies on JA's the most.

[Urteil]

You don't have a clue on RDM for PvP. Have you ~ever~ fought a MNK or BLU before?

The gradual resistance is very slow. You'll get more then enough spells off to kill the target before resistance every becomes an issue. The whole point of those spells is to reduce the options available to the player and force them to spend their time on items and not combating you. You deliberately avoided addressing the real reason you use sleep, the stun effect. If the other player hasn't used a poison pot, that's just a bonus. You kill them with drain / aspir and DoT's over time, typically within 5 min but someone with a ton of items can last 10 min.

Poison II is 10hp/tick for 120 seconds, 40 ticks for 400 damage.

Sab doubles both the duration and DoT effect of Poison II. You get 20hp/tick at 240 seconds, 80 ticks for 1600 damage. Combined with drain spam it means your target eventually dies. This is for a one vs one contest where your just running them around. Which is ridiculously easy to do. In a team vs team fight, you would Sab Paralyze II onto the MNK, DNC, SAM or whomever on the other team relies on JA's the most.

/sch Sublimation wakes you like poison.
Its called resist gravity, erase and poisona.

You are terrible at PvP because you seem to not understand the power of resistance gear.
While you're draining/aspiring the other person does it too, the fact that you tote poison over silence is blows my mind, can you even tie your own shoes?

You don't have enough pride to not turn down a 61 100 byne bill offer to put your money where your mouth is? Make a mule, I"ll show it to you in a trade.


Is the person fighting the RDM standing still? You're an idiot, transfer over here so I can smack you around, this grows tiresome, I doubt anything bigger than the prospects I've just offered you has come your way.

O great PvP RDM master of the ages.

[Zaknafein]

Let me guess .... they tried to melee.

RDM should never melee in PvP, they should be kiting and treating other players as NM's with 1600~2000HP.

"Teamwork" means jack squat because no matter what you do on one side, the other side can do as well. It won't be three vs one RDM, it'll be three vs one RDM + two BLU, or some other combination. What your saying is that multiple people beat a single RDM, but you completely forget that the RDM / BLU / PLD has two other players with them.

The whole point of all this is that FFXI is balanced around PvE, players teaming up vs horribly overpowered monsters. PvP isn't going to work due to how the abilities and specializations were divided up amongst the jobs. Right now PvP seems "fun" because there is no reward. The moment they include someone on the level of a VWNM body's into the event, you'll see a flood of players. Players will quickly figure out that if they play as groups of RDM / BLU / PLD's they will win the most and therefor get the most points for their gear. Players who do not have those jobs leveled / geared will feel bad as their left out / behind and get beaten constantly.

A) They never once engaged. Was completely enfeeble/Dot/nuke a.k.a. your "doomsday scenario" lol. It is a lsmate who has excellent gear, and is a very accomplished player. As I said earlier she got me good a few times, however my rabbit had it's share of kills as well. As did the other participants a Blm, and a Sam.

B) You talk in absolutes about what the "other" team will be comprised of. Is it possible that you don't even know that brenner randomizes the teams?

C) I tried to respond to your posts logically, but I have the feeling that you are a tool like has been mentioned earlier. Bottom line is if you hate PvP so much, and it is so awful why are you even participating in this thread?

[Urteil]

Y You deliberately avoided addressing the real reason you use sleep, the stun effect. If the other player hasn't used a poison pot, that's just a bonus. You kill them with drain / aspir and DoT's over time, typically within 5 min but someone with a ton of items can last 10 min.

The real reason you use sleep, is the STUN effect?

You mean not to immobilize a person to spam dispel, get ahead in the aspir cycle, or buy time to recover?


What is this, I don't even. I keep re-reading this . . . I don't know why.

[Keinn]

I would have liked FFXI to have a PVP server option, but unfortunately, full world PVP would never happen.
SE has based the story of the game all around everyone being the children of Altana, and how they all have to band together to face the evils and such. Having people fighting each other all over the place just doesn't match their theme.

A dedicated Colosseum would be great, though.

[Urteil]

I would have liked FFXI to have a PVP server option, but unfortunately, full world PVP would never happen.
SE has based the story of the game all around everyone being the children of Altana, and how they all have to band together to face the evils and such. Having people fighting each other all over the place just doesn't match their theme.

A dedicated Colosseum would be great, though.


I don't want full world PvP, a /duel when bored outside of towns or even them just increasing the EXP reward from OM's to 20,000 that also gives you some Conquest Points or Cruor would be enough.

The ideal fix would be that every person on the winning team gets 15,000~ CP which could be used to fuel Voidwatch etc.

Or EXP.

Or Cruor, or the ability to pick.

[Xantavia]

I barely pvp and I can tell you Saevel that is an over simplistic view of pvp so much can easily can wrong in your battle plan there, break, sleep, getting your mp aspired away, etc. also why use asuran claws, there are cheaper faster spells to do the same job like delta thrust which comes with a handy plague. BLUs are a powerful job don't get me wrong but any good pvper will know blus weakness is range, its very easy to run out of range of most of our spells or to just aspir our limited mp pool away. Even the one "broken spell" we have in pvp absolute terror is easy to just run from.

Not only that but you neglected water bomb which is a solid silence spell that does a bit of knowledge and decent range. And you didn't mention pinecone bomb which gives you times to set up aa spell or give time to put up occultation or barrier tusk or cocoon.
You forgot to toss out regurgitation to help with the range issue. (unless bind doesn't work in these PvP fights. I've never done them myself)

[Urteil]

You forgot to toss out regurgitation to help with the range issue. (unless bind doesn't work in these PvP fights. I've never done them myself)

Bind works and regurgitation is very good.

[tyrantsyn]

I'd like to see the gear swap penalty removed. I'd also like to see some worth wild reward's thrown in.

RDM is pretty beastly against a lot of job's in pvp. I know from personal experience I can hold of 2 PLD's with a decent effort. BLU is a monster tho. If you can't keep it silence they just rip you apart.

[Urteil]

I'd like to see the gear swap penalty removed. I'd also like to see some worth wild reward's thrown in.

RDM is pretty beastly against a lot of job's in pvp. I know from personal experience I can hold of 2 PLD's with a decent effort. BLU is a monster tho. If you can't keep it silence they just rip you apart.

Those are some terrible PLD's, if they have had basic gear and were using RDM sub Breaking would be very very hard and sleeping them next to impssible. You'd be forced to rely on AoE Manifest bind and even then they could just pop fealty at the beginning and Zerg you.

More than likley they would both just Divine Emblem Holy and bring you to about 30% hp in two seconds, then either both use Holy II or move into finish the job.

Maybe in 2009, however turtling is not really viable with the amazing amount of base DMG on weapons today.

A BLU rips you apart if you stand still, if you melee kite between 5-7' which is the melee range in Ballista you will be fine, or you can aspir their MP pool while keeping them CC'd. They'll be forced to CC you but silence is not the "only" way to deal with a BLU things like a Samurai with Konzen-Ittai are just as deadly, or Wild Fire COR with regain/blitzer's.



I don't mind the gear swap penalty because if it didn't exist (aside from the blinking problem) we could rotate perfect resist setups and many jobs like DRK or SAM wouldn't have to sacrifice -DT for resistance and gain too many advantages instead of having to carefully maximize their slot choices.

The same goes especially for jobs with high enfeebling power, they either need to choose between maximizing their accuracy or having survivability.

[Arcon]

I'd like to see the gear swap penalty removed. I'd also like to see some worth wild reward's thrown in.

That's due to blinking making people untargettable. Unless they fix blinking (which they can and should), or at least the associated target-loss (same thing), this will not be changed.

[tyrantsyn]

Those are some terrible PLD's, if they have had basic gear and were using RDM sub Breaking would be very very hard and sleeping them next to impssible. You'd be forced to rely on AoE Manifest bind and even then they could just pop fealty at the beginning and Zerg you.

More than likley they would both just Divine Emblem Holy and bring you to about 30% hp in two seconds, then either both use Holy II or move into finish the job.

Maybe in 2009, however turtling is not really viable with the amazing amount of base DMG on weapons today.

A BLU rips you apart if you stand still, if you melee kite between 5-7' which is the melee range in Ballista you will be fine, or you can aspir their MP pool while keeping them CC'd. They'll be forced to CC you but silence is not the "only" way to deal with a BLU things like a Samurai with Konzen-Ittai are just as deadly, or Wild Fire COR with regain/blitzer's.



I don't mind the gear swap penalty because if it didn't exist (aside from the blinking problem) we could rotate perfect resist setups and many jobs like DRK or SAM wouldn't have to sacrifice -DT for resistance and gain too many advantages instead of having to carefully maximize their slot choices.

The same goes especially for jobs with high enfeebling power, they either need to choose between maximizing their accuracy or having survivability.

I was targeting the weaker of the 2 PLD with the break spell and keeping him out of the fight. When engage with the Ochain/almace PLD it was a combination of BIO III, poison II, Icespike's, silence, enspell damage, slow and what ever else I felt like throwing at him that won the day. With out some way to consistently remove all the enfeeble's and Dot's he just slowly died. I'll admit, the added pld didn't have much in the way of gear. But the Ochain/almace PLD was tip top and had just got done working my UKON/WAR.

You know the whole thing with pvp is you can paint a million different picture with how it would go down. But the only one that count's is the one that actually happen. Those 2 couldn't figure out a way to take me out. They weren't bad PLD's, they just didn't have a way to get rid of me and my bag of trick's. The idea's you suggested could work. If I didn't debuff fealty after it went up or didn't sleep/break/silence them on the spot when I engage them.

[Starry]

What exactly is wrong with Brenner?

No progression loot - to start.

Oh, and it's boring, useless, and no queue system.

[Zintonik]

a similar thread have been created as well regarding the lack of pvp on this game http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17832-Non-existent-pvp-content-needs-the-be-addressed-asap

[Zintonik]

Those are some terrible PLD's, if they have had basic gear and were using RDM sub Breaking would be very very hard and sleeping them next to impssible. You'd be forced to rely on AoE Manifest bind and even then they could just pop fealty at the beginning and Zerg you.

More than likley they would both just Divine Emblem Holy and bring you to about 30% hp in two seconds, then either both use Holy II or move into finish the job.

Maybe in 2009, however turtling is not really viable with the amazing amount of base DMG on weapons today.

A BLU rips you apart if you stand still, if you melee kite between 5-7' which is the melee range in Ballista you will be fine, or you can aspir their MP pool while keeping them CC'd. They'll be forced to CC you but silence is not the "only" way to deal with a BLU things like a Samurai with Konzen-Ittai are just as deadly, or Wild Fire COR with regain/blitzer's.



I don't mind the gear swap penalty because if it didn't exist (aside from the blinking problem) we could rotate perfect resist setups and many jobs like DRK or SAM wouldn't have to sacrifice -DT for resistance and gain too many advantages instead of having to carefully maximize their slot choices.

The same goes especially for jobs with high enfeebling power, they either need to choose between maximizing their accuracy or having survivability.
pld is crap vs rdm, poison2/bio3 and icepikes = byebye, pld cant also damage a rdm/gain tp with sissy sword

[Zintonik]

people that pvp on this game wants a duel button/option to have fun outside towns and battle freely against other players that wants to pvp/accept duel request, brenner/ballista are very outdated and poorly executed pvp systems that takes ages to set up and reserve to match someone , last month i wanted to pvp a blu but i could not do it because all ballista slots was reserved/taken, i had to wait 3 hours for the next reservation... i mean really.. not to mention that when a reservation is set up and that person doesn't show up, the reservation time still remains active for 1 hour, and you cannot enter/participate

[Alhanelem]

Even a duel function would have to be restricted to certain areas- or you oculd have people trying to cause disruption by spamming duel requests in events or something.

It's best to just keep PvP in designated events, and polish up the balance and offer some better incentives to participate. Adjust the ballista schedule so the lowest level caps are removed, and add a 75 cap, perhaps. It definitely does need to be made somehow easier to access, as well. the license needs to be removed and allow people to participate freely.

Ballista needs to be more inviting and more open, right now it's limited to a very tight group of people, some of which can be a bit uppity at times. Nobody seems to want to just relax and have a good time.

[Missdivine]

Even a duel function would have to be restricted to certain areas- or you oculd have people trying to cause disruption by spamming duel requests in events or something.

It's best to just keep PvP in designated events, and polish up the balance and offer some better incentives to participate. Adjust the ballista schedule so the lowest level caps are removed, and add a 75 cap, perhaps. It definitely does need to be made somehow easier to access, as well. the license needs to be removed and allow people to participate freely.

Ballista needs to be more inviting and more open, right now it's limited to a very tight group of people, some of which can be a bit uppity at times. Nobody seems to want to just relax and have a good time.

sure... because SE won't even come with the idea of giving you the option of blocking someone that is spamming you duel requests right? please...


the game just need open pvp/ pvp arenas like they will do on ff14 on patch 2.0

[Kaisha]

I'd be all for a simple duel-request system a la WoW's setup.

Would make it easier to better test the effects of some abilities and spells also.

[Alhanelem]

sure... because SE won't even come with the idea of giving you the option of blocking someone that is spamming you duel requests right? please...


the game just need open pvp/ pvp arenas like they will do on ff14 on patch 2.0Open PvP just will not work for this game. There's no basis for it. If the three nations were at war with each other and there was some logical reason for such PvP to exist, then it would make sense. as it is, any PvP that isn't painted as a recreational event / battle exercise doesn't make sense in FFXI"s world. There are no opposing factions for players to take sides on.

Realistically, the best thing they can do is to adjust and polish what they already have, make it feel more rewarding, and make it more accessible. Any totally new PvP system would require too much work on the devs part when there are a lot of other things to do.

[Natenn]

just need to bring back the old HNM pop once a day or week, all the pvp we need.

[Alhanelem]

I see what you did there.


Buuuut, no thanks.

[Draylo]

More like bot vs bot

[Meiisein]

I'm of the opinion that unless the game was designed for PvP first it'll never be balanced. After all PvP player mechanics will work perfectly fine in PvE if the game content is tuned to it. The reverse is rarely true though. Take WoW as an example. 1v1 and even 2v2 will never be balanced simply due to raid mechanics not being designed for the low numbers of small scale PvP.

That said I'm not opposed to adding more PvP options to FFXI as long as it doesn't come at a cost to the games future PvE path. I don't see that happening though. FFXI is very much operating on limited resources. Taking the time to add this feature will almost certainly come at the cost of something else.

[Evviva]

If you want uncap official matches: Fenrir
If you want 60 cap official matches: Carbuncle(jp time only) and Lakshmi

Ballista in it's current state is absolutely perfect.
Although, uncap needs a damage adjustment -again-

I've taken it upon myself to promote ballista on Undine - but unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive for people to participate.

[Alhanelem]

If you want uncap official matches: Fenrir
If you want 60 cap official matches: Carbuncle(jp time only) and Lakshmi

Ballista in it's current state is absolutely perfect. Ballista is not perfect, and the fact that you can't simply do it whenever you want and regardless of your server should be a good indicator of that. I love Ballista, but it has barriers to entry that SE needs to resolve before any rank-and-file player will take any interest in it.

[Evviva]

Ballista is not perfect, and the fact that you can't simply do it whenever you want and regardless of your server should be a good indicator of that. I love Ballista, but it has barriers to entry that SE needs to resolve before any rank-and-file player will take any interest in it.
If there was a lineup of players waiting to get into the diorama, I could see your point.

[Alhanelem]

Err, my whole point is there ISN'T a lineup of players waiting to get in. If ballista was "perfect," then enough people would be playing it such that official matches would occur on a regular basis, you could shout for and find people for custom matches any time, and you wouldn't have to switch servers just to find players.

Part of the reason nobody does ballista is there's no incentive to. The other part of it is the technical flaws, having to make special macros just for ballista due to the gearswap restriction (which was instituted largely because of a flaw in the game itself that still exists to this day), and the fact that the level of balance varies significantly with the chosen cap. If it was perfect, then level cap wouldn't matter that much for the level of enjoyment and people would play at all caps.

In short, don't call something nobody wants to do "perfect." It has nothing to do with people not liking PvP and everything to do with the flaws in the PvP system.

[Minibuddha]

Idk I am with Evviva. I love ballista and playing on Lakshmi.

Now as far as 1 vs 1 I feel a place in Jeuno/Aht Urghan like a battlefield for ballista anytime would be fun. Allow like 15 different arras to battle in and allow others to watch. It is free to play and for fun.

[Alhanelem]

I love ballista too. It's just not "perfect." It is fallacious to be "with" someone calling it perfect when it's not. Everything in the game can be improved and Ballista is no exception.

It's a simple fact: If it was so "perfect," there would be more people playing it.

Becuase every class is not directly balanced against every other, 1v1 is poor in this game and I don't understand why people want it so much. The PvP system was designed around it being a team game, just like the rest of the game was originally. Ballista is at its best when you're playing with two full teams and you're actually playing the "game" of ballista instead of mindlessly attacking each other. There is much more strategy and tactics in play when it is played the way it was designed.

[Evviva]

Err, my whole point is there ISN'T a lineup of players waiting to get in. If ballista was "perfect," then enough people would be playing it such that official matches would occur on a regular basis, you could shout for and find people for custom matches any time, and you wouldn't have to switch servers just to find players.

I understand your point, but you have to remember ballista is very old... after all it is 2012, and with that being said; ballista did indeed flourish with its inception for consecutive years - think: capped out official matches for level 30, 40, 50, 60 and 75 cap.. we even had people pouring into the diorama for 1v1 duels and random shenanigans.

The game has changed drastically over the years, and every so often ballista would receive minor updates as well - they weren't as glamorous as the rest of the game, nor were they sparkled in front of the player base... but they were absolutely present.


Part of the reason nobody does ballista is there's no incentive to.
I see this very often, and it always seems to be in the form of tangible rewards.

It really is a shame that people's interest is solely propelled by this facet, when on the contrary the pure enjoyment gained out of ballista keeps myself and numerous others coming back after all these years.


The other part of it is the technical flaws, having to make special macros just for ballista due to the gearswap restriction
A good friend of mine spams his equipment change macro when he is near a rook while trying to score with many opponents preventing him from doing so.
...now this is a perfectly acceptable strategy, as it increases his chances of scoring, and doesn't penalize him too much unless he decides to fight back - for me, a simple counter to this is playing on a pc... others not so lucky might not share the same advantage.(ps2, xbox360)

So yes, a "restriction" but a very good one.

And if blinking and equipment changing was allowed... ninjas.. ninjas everywhere.


and the fact that the level of balance varies significantly with the chosen cap. If it was perfect, then level cap wouldn't matter that much for the level of enjoyment and people would play at all caps.
In every single level cap there was a job combination that greatly overpowered others, inducing players to pursuit a clear advantage.
This malicious behavior caused a lot of level caps to simply die out.


In short, don't call something nobody wants to do "perfect." It has nothing to do with people not liking PvP and everything to do with the flaws in the PvP system.
The message that I've been trying to convey is the exhilarating feeling of adrenaline that ballista provides, the unwavering competition of a well played match(or a 1v1 if that's your cup of tea).

But in short, adjusting to the environment and dedicating effort to adapting is a lot more difficult than asking for a fix. I understand~

[Minibuddha]

It is not perfect but I love it the way it is. That is called Stratagy. Yeah sure the rewards are low but its worth it to me. I enjoy my time there playing with everyone, win, lose or draw. See, Players who do come, often do so, to have fun. The newer generation of players as compared to 2004 is very different. The few of us still here from then. To those who joined in like 2008, ballista was shown as nothing but a waste of time. To those who appriciate the whole game, like us, ballista is an event of fun, and teamwork. Such as we teamwork to make Abyssea happen, to make walk of echos happen, campaign, missions, quests, we all do teamwork. Ballista is just against real people instead of monsters, means more stratagy. Its not perfect. Something does not need to be perfect to enjoy it. Each race has its own specific weaknesses and strengths. Balancing it would require that a taru and elvaan can hit for the same damage. also that magic can be cast the same with all races for same damage. I feel let a taru have weaker STR and a galka have more HP. There are ways around everything. It just takes thinking. It can be done.

[Alhanelem]

I see this very often, and it always seems to be in the form of tangible rewards.

It really is a shame that people's interest is solely propelled by this facet, when on the contrary the pure enjoyment gained out of ballista keeps myself and numerous others coming back after all these years.It's a simple fact that reward drives gameplay in an MMO. In some ways it is sad and I agree, but it applies to everything we do in the game. Why do you think Walk of Echoes is unpopular (even though I find it a fun and interesting event)? Because the rewards are disproportionate to the effort.

Would WoW's PvP be as popular as it is if there were no rewards for doing it (even thought the rewards are mainly useful for PvP and not for anything else)? I really don't think so.

If I could have something, even if it was just a useless trinket that let people know that I played ballista and I was good at it, I would take it. The titles/chevrons aren't good enough because you can't even keep them indefinitely. I'm not really asking for much here. There were a few special hats made for PvP, but they only exist on a handful of characters that probably aren't even playing the game anymore because it was a one-time live event they were awarded at, making them among the rarest items in the game. But if you ever actually saw one of them, you'd know that guy has been places. :p

At the very least, the already-existing reward (EXP) could at least be brought in line with the time taken to recieve it or at least adjusted to account for the fact that EXP awarded for almost everything else in the game has been increased dramatically.

[Evviva]

I completely comprehend your point of view... but to be perfectly honest. I cannot relate.

Ballista in itself is a reward, a treat - a welcome change from the monotony of FFXI.

It truly is a shame that more players can't open their eyes beyond the tangible rewards.:confused:

[Alhanelem]

I completely comprehend your point of view... but to be perfectly honest. I cannot relate.

Ballista in itself is a reward, a treat - a welcome change from the monotony of FFXI.

It truly is a shame that more players can't open their eyes beyond the tangible rewards.:confused:
Unforunately, the vast majority of people on this earth are not so pure as to enjoy something that has no reward. tangible rewards, even if they aren't functional, can be attractive. The fact is, if there was more incentive, the event would get more exposure, and people would discover "OK, the reward is cool, but hey, this is actually FUN!" People would be more keen to discover it and then participate more in PvP regardless of any future reward.

(I don't want to see rewards because I want them personally, I want to see them because it would mean I get to play ballista more)

TL;DR: You really just need something to hook people in. Once you have them, as long as they're having fun, it doesn't matter what comes after that.

[Evviva]

I agree with everything you have said, kudos~

My only wish is for people to step one foot into ballista... maybe then they might realize how incredibly deep and rewarding it can be!

[Alhanelem]

Ahh, I remember my previous (and only slightly successful) attempts to promote PvP. I even used Player Event Support to try to garner a bit of attention. Anyone who walked by tillecoe was greeted by this guy telling them to play ballista... or else.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b16/Tahngarthor/goldenorc2.png

I also had this stuff in PJ:
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b16/Tahngarthor/mightymorphingpowermoogles.png

[Evviva]

Hah! That's awesome!

On a side note:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/29423/ballista-royale/


Also, http://vanatime.de.vu/.

60cap and uncap official matches.
60cap and uncap Hako(Diorama mirror matches).
1v1 bouts.

Everything is possible~

If interested, pop on to the test server and grab a pearl. Event scheduling will be that much easier.

In case a sack-holder is not online, please PM myself/vyii or deshio.

Straight copy from the thread I created on ffxiah: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/28447/ballista-test-server/4/

Please join us~
It is evident that ballista will not be receiving any updates in the near future.. so let's make the best of it!

[Draylo]

How do you get the ability to place those things for player events? I've never done one or seen one lol, just know of the special hotel place in Aht Urghan.

[Alhanelem]

There's a form where you apply for player event support on the official site. After submitting an event, a GM will speak to you before your scheduled time to set up the NPCs for you and make sure everything meets with your approval.

(Note that the golden Orc there is not one of the normal objects you can choose in the form- The GM helping me mistakenly put that there, and I said "you know, that's cooler than what I picked. Can you just leave him there?")

At any rate, I prefer uncapped ballista, as I hate level caps in general and it's more fun to have all your abilities available- especially on a few jobs that really need them to be effective in PvP. I also don't like having to dig through my storage to retrieve AF and low level gear. (Sometimes for uncapped, we'll institute house rules, like no relic/mythic/empy weapons to ensure the playing field is still reasonably level). The metagame is very different, but the balance is not as off as some people think.

And we should not give up in asking for adjustments- keep asking and maybe one day we'll receive something.

[Evviva]

Oh yes, we actually played a few matches last night. Uncap.

By all means, if the community keeps pushing.. I'm sure some result will come out of it!

In the meantime. Captain Planet, or Undine if you prefer~

[Evviva]

Before our conversation about the definition of the word perfect, I made this post :

If you want uncap official matches: Fenrir
If you want 60 cap official matches: Carbuncle(jp time only) and Lakshmi

Ballista in it's current state is absolutely perfect.
Although, uncap needs a damage adjustment -again-

I've taken it upon myself to promote ballista on Undine - but unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive for people to participate.

So, let's get real for a moment. Players have a choice.
1.) Wait for the dev team to take notice of the numerous threads created and do something about ballista.
2.) Promote ballista on your home server, and hope that it catches on.
3.) Level an alternate character and join a server that still plays.
4.) Server transfer to an aforementioned server.
5.) Log on to the test server, Undine.
6.) Keep swarming the forums with ideas on how ballista should be changed, while consequently arguing with everyone who might have a different opinion.
7.) Do nothing.


All 60 cap vs uncap vs team vs 1v1 semantics aside there is a clear and present truth in all of this.
The people that are most vocal more often than not fall into the category of 1, 6 & 7.
Of course, everything mentioned is directly relative to how much people actually care about ballista. :p

In the meantime, I'll keep trying to promote ballista on Undine - even though there really is no reward in it for me and the many others that happen to join.

tldr; If you want to play, do something and stop waiting~

[Alhanelem]

1) We're already doing this, and it's a good thing.
2) This is nearly impossible. people either wont play unless their grievances with the system are addressed, or if they don't know about it, are difficult to convince to join since there is no incentive (the number of people in this game that happily do something for nothing is shockingly small)
3) I shouldn't have to pay extra money to play certain content just because the people that like it most are on a different server than the one I randomly got put on when I created my character 8 years ago.
4) See #3
5) People have done this, but the number of people that actively participate in test server activities is very low so the situation isn't much better
6) You place an extremely negative connotation on this, when in fact it is a good idea for us to all be discussing the issues with ballista. I don't see anyone acting as though their opinion is the only one, which is what you seem to be suggesting here.
7) The people that care but do nothing are only doing nothing because they don't know what they should do.

[Evviva]

Enjoy ballista~

In the meantime, I will as well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oIFZkn3nCk&list=UUGlV1qUodPPcljEVmwWBh3g&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mAUHtpDpFc&list=UUGlV1qUodPPcljEVmwWBh3g&index=4&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrxeZqjmR0k&list=UUGlV1qUodPPcljEVmwWBh3g&index=7&feature=plcp

Daily.

[Alhanelem]

If only that could happen on every server...

[Karbuncle]

Hay guys, My server does Ballista some times so that means the event is perfect and you're all crazy for thinking it needs an update :D!

/sarcasm off.

on a Slightly more serious note, Ballista suffers from the problem of having no reward. Which is why most people don't bother doing it. I like the idea of more PVP, but at the same time, I realize SE Does not like that idea, Or didn't, some odd years ago.

Advertising Ballista on your server could be a good idea. I'd start by making a thread on the FFXIAH Server Forums, Maybe one here too, If you can get enough interest, Could probably spread it by word of mouth then too.

Kinda late in the game, Everyones bored and hates Voidwatch, nows the perfect chance to coerce them to kill eachother.

[Evviva]

When did ballista -stop- being perfect?
Was it never perfect?
Why do players still devote a blunt of their time to -playing- ballista?

All I can see from numerous posts is that ballista lacks rewards. Is that what players want?
Please help me understand.

What do players want exactly?

I'll start.
I love extremely competitive and fast paced ballista. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8OhV6Bn7qM
There is nothing in this game that provides -me- with the same rush, it's a drug.

With that being said, ballista has always been ruled by japanese players.
-My- personal goal is to find equally disciplined, devoted and skilled NA/EU players who share a passion for ballista.

Ballista is extremely complex and deep, asking for an update seems very strange to -me-.


Thanks for reading!

Video courtesy of Vyii~

[Alhanelem]

Was it never perfect? Yes. It was never perfect. Nothing is ever perfect.
Why do players still devote a blunt of their time to -playing- ballista? I don't know anyone who does this.

What do players want exactly?commonly wished-for things;

1) Removal of blinking from the entire game thus removing the need for the gear-swap penalty. Many players do not like not being able to maximize their potential in PvP.
2)Rewards. Some people want a reason to do ballista versus doing anything else in the game that they might also find fun. Most people get the "rush" you speak of when the reward center in their brain is triggered by a chemical reaction in their body. in most cases, this is typically gained by recieving something and the brain interpreting it as a benefit.
3) more control accomodations: Some existing things could be revised, like instead of having a text command and taking up a macro slot to use /targetopp, simply having the F8 key do the same thing
4)Polished balance at all levels of play. The balance isn't bad when you factor in team play, but it isn't flawless (nor is it in any game in existence0
5)Easier to access. Make the ballista license quest completely optional, and perhaps add an extra perk to it in exchange. having to complete some of the missions and do a boring, run-all-over-the-world quest just to participate hinders people getting into it. i've asked a number of people to join me, then I explain to them they need to do a quest for the official matches. They go off and start to do it, and then I never hear from them again. Also, simplify the sign-up process. Just like almost everything else in this game, it's needlessly complicated. Another great thing would be to sign up from the pursuviants and be teleported to the match automatically if it happens. No more teleporting to a match only to have it not happen.

6)Drastically reduce weakness in PvP and/or raise cast time: This one's not really required but just a thought I had. The tactical choice and advantage of being able to keep Petras if you are raised is marred by 2 things. One, until you've died several times, it's actually hard to raise someone before your timer ends. Two, weakness is a death sentence. No point in raising someone to save their petras when they're almost certain to just die again and it leaves the raiser in a vulnerable position for a long time.
7) Make ballista and brenner reservations good for a period of time from application, instead of for set start and end times. Even better, make the Dioramas always accessible for play publicly at all times, and make reservations only for private matches. This will also make things a bit more inviting, and reduce competition for time slots. During the last hours my ballista event (pictures above), a JP group took over the Diorama just before i could and would not the 10 or so people I worked hard to gather join them.

8) Not ever going to happen, but my biggest dream: Cross server official mode battlegrounds. Quite simply, eliminating the barriers between all the players who want to do ballista. The test server does help in this regard, but it's not a very convenient option. Nobody should have to switch servers and abandon friends just to enjoy one piece of the game that isn't popular on their server.
9) Revamp the schedule. Eliminate 30/40/50 caps: even when a lot of people were participating in ballista on our server when it was in test stages, nobody did the low level caps- 60 and uncapped were the only ones that ever happened. eliminate the 1 hour gap between matches, and in fact have matches active in all three areas at the same time, so players can choose the mode they prefer. "Hmm, tonight might be a good night for ballista... next match; 30 cap best of three. nope, maybe not.'


Just because you personally love it the way it is doesn't mean that it can't be improved.

I honestly think your overbearing nature may turn more people off than on. Lighten up and be a little more open minded. What seems strange to -you- may not be strange to many others.

If I could do ballista regularly, without paying whatever it costs for a server transfer and thus without severing ties to lots of people I may know, that would keep me playing this game a lot longer.

[Evviva]

I'm not going to comment on the suggestions you posted, good luck.
This is not a sarcastic statement, all of my posts are written without any notion of sarcasm in mind.

Since you don't care enough to read my posts thoroughly and quote my post(s) correctly, I shall extend the same courtesy.


But, to note:
I honestly think your overbearing nature may turn more people off than on. Lighten up and be a little more open minded.
A quick search provided me with...

At any rate, I prefer uncapped ballista, as I hate level caps in general

I also don't like having to dig through my storage to retrieve AF and low level gear.
...there are many more quotes I can delve into, but I will stop. After all my overbearing nature may turn more people off than on... and....oh I should try to be more open minded?

60cap and uncap official matches.
60cap and uncap Hako(Diorama mirror matches).
1v1 bouts.

Everything is possible~
A quick excerpt from one of my posts, in an attempt to promote ballista on Undine, the test server.

I'm not holding back anymore.

This thread is called: Real PvP can we have it PLEASE S.E.
How ironic~
A very small percentage of the EU and NA player-base has actually experienced real ballista.
Let alone know what it is.

I unlike many others showcased on this forum, don't have the luxury to ponder of special updates for ballista, as I am -still- after a multitude of years playing trying to perfect my game.(Yes, perfect my game!)

Don't believe me? Visit this blog: http://vyiv.wordpress.com/ and read just one strategy outlined.

I tried to keep this as short as possible, since I'm expecting a written ostentation of no, but...

[Ritsuka]

well if they did then all the noobs would get f#$# up by the old school players that know how to play this game ^_~
PVP is ok but you get docked a point for gear swiping which kinda sucks

[Karbuncle]

When did ballista -stop- being perfect?
Was it never perfect?
Why do players still devote a blunt of their time to -playing- ballista?

I'll drop a hint on you. Just because maybe 5% of a Population plays Ballista, does not mean the Event is perfect. Think with me here, People play FFXIV, no one would argue its perfect. People do Chocobo Racing, No ones saying thats perfect. Just because you can enjoy event, does not mean its PERFECT.

Can. you. Follow. This. Logic?

Your logic is mixed up. You think, "well, I enjoy Ballista, and some people on my server likely totally less than 2% of the Servers population do as well... So its a perfect Event." When in reality, If it was a perfect event, You'd likely never get to play it because theres a limit on how many people can participate in Ballista, and if it was a useful event, people would be lining up to do it.

Same could be said for the Reserved zones, If Ballista was popular, You'd likely never get in. In reality, You can only Ballista so often because its so unpopular.

You and your 5-10 Buddies on one server does not constitute a completed, well built, perfect event. It just means you guys are so bored out of your eyeballs you find running in circles around eachother fun. Which I can see happening, Because even i sometimes feel like running in circles swinging a knife at people.


All I can see from numerous posts is that ballista lacks rewards. Is that what players want?
Please help me understand.

What do players want exactly?

I can't speak for other players, But what i want is what every other game already has for PVP, Rewards. a Meaning to actually doing it. If i wanted to do something for no reward over and over I'd continue doing Voidwatch. I understand for you, Being able to fight someone whos probably running in circles around you because thats as "Strategic" as most people get in Ballista is really exciting.

But for most players, Its lacking. Half the people in this thread probably really enjoy Ballista, They just wish it was more popular so people would participate and the could stroke their epeen to pwning noobs who are in ballista for the rewards. For a lot of players, its a turn off because it feels like some jobs are extremely favored in Ballista, which is true to some extent. My only peeve with it is i can't switch gear. That is why i hate the event personally.

If i wanted to run around in 1 set of gear pretending it was acceptable I'd make rude posts yelling at everyone for being so rude. In my eyes, Locking gear makes it a terrible event. You can't maximize your job, So it benefits jobs who are basically retard-proof. Jobs like THF are good and F**ked because they are very Macro heavy jobs. Same with RDM. Jobs like that are boned in Ballista because they have to chose 1 Gearset.

I know why its penalized, because Blinking could be abused as a tactic. But it still frustrates me. So basically to sum it up, People want reasons for their actions, they want rewards for their effort. Helplessly beating up some guy over and over is only fun so many times.

And for the record before you prance on about not reading, I read your entire post, But what i had answers for was the first half, and yes, I even watched your Videos. It pretty much matches what i expect out of Ballista. on side destroying the other while people run around in circles.

Got to give the guy credit though, He loves his Ballista, and he looks like a good player, Have nothing against him. Just the event itself sucks.

[Evviva]

What is this?
You did not even answer one question. As per your logic... ballista has always had this magical 5% of the population participating?


You and your 5-10 Buddies on one server does not constitute a completed, well built, perfect event.

Oversight?
If you want uncap official matches: Fenrir
If you want 60 cap official matches: Carbuncle(jp time only) and Lakshmi

Ballista in it's current state is absolutely perfect.
Although, uncap needs a damage adjustment -again-

I've taken it upon myself to promote ballista on Undine - but unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive for people to participate.


And for the record before you prance on about not reading, I read your entire post, But what i had answers for was the first half.
Did you really? That would insinuate that you read my last post and your comprehension of ballista tactics is running in circles around each other?

I appreciate the attempt at being witty, But unfortunately, Your post further outlines my point.

[Arcon]

They did answer your questions, both Karbuncle and Alhanelem. I'll give it a shot, too, maybe you just need to hear it over and over from different people.


When did ballista -stop- being perfect?

It was never perfect.


Was it never perfect?

Yes.


Why do players still devote a blunt of their time to -playing- ballista?

"Players" makes it sound like a lot of people actually do that. But they don't. Only some do, a minor fraction. And it's because these "some" people enjoy it, which says nothing about why others don't or about the state of the event as a whole. Some people enjoy Windows Pinball (including me), that doesn't make it better or even "good". It just means that it falls into a favorable part on the spectrum of things I enjoy.


All I can see from numerous posts is that ballista lacks rewards. Is that what players want?

Yes. I also like how you've indirectly excluded yourself from the playerbase in this sentence, implying that you're fully aware of how lacking in players this event actually is.


What do players want exactly?

Entertainment. Entertainment, however, covers an extremely large range of activities. To you, playing Ballista in its current form is entertaining. That is not the case for most other people, and both Alhanelem and Karbuncle have given you plenty of reasons why. Here's the ones I consider most important:
No rewards. May sound like a poor reason to you, but it's the core of an RPG: developing your character. That's why people love obtaining new gear and getting new spells. Ballista features absolutely zero such content and as such goes against the very nature of MMORPGs, which is why not many people playing this game are into it.
Jobs are heavily unbalanced. People like their jobs to be useful in some way, but for Ballista that's usually not the case.
The game wasn't designed for PvP. That is different from before, because is not about balance, this is simply about the playstyle. The "circling" issue Karbuncle mentioned is quite a relevant one, as it goes against how this game is usually played, which is either steadily facing a mob where targeting is a big issue. That's why it can be abused by running around opponents. That doesn't work on mobs, since the server would automatically autoadjust. And the delay makes that more guesswork than strategy for PvP.
People don't wanna change their playstyle entirely for one event. Disabling gear swaps makes every aspect of their usual playstyle (gear for the moment) completely invalid. However, it does not change the requirement for different aspects, only the ability of the players to maximize each one, which is a kick in the nuts. Add to that that they'd have to change all their macros just for it and that alone makes it not worth it for a majority of people.
Organisation and scheduling. It's horrible to try and get a Ballista match started. You just can't go like "hey, let's PvP", you actually have to wait and schedule with the (currently empty) pre-reserved time slots for certain events. And starting a match in itself is an art, one that most people don't have the patience for.

These are a few of the issues most people currently have with Ballista. You, on the other hand, only have one reason for it: "It's fun to me and a few friends". You can praise it as much as you want, but if you don't see or acknowledge these issues that most people have with it then you're just being ignorant. Or you do acknowledge them but don't want to accept them, which makes you arrogant in believing that your opinion is worth more than other peoples'.


I appreciate the attempt at being witty, But unfortunately, Your post further outlines my point.

What exactly is your point? I seem to have lost that somewhere along the way. Or you have, I don't know yet which it is. Are you trying to convince us that Ballista is good, even though we have our opinion and you can't argue opinions?

I also wanna note that personally I like Ballista. And when I say "like" I mean that despite the reasons I listed above, all of which annoy me, it would provide me with enough entertainment for me to actually do it. The only reason why I don't is simply because I can't find any other people who feel this way at all. The last person I knew who enjoyed Ballista quit some time ago.

[Karbuncle]

What is this?
You did not even answer one question. As per your logic... ballista has always had this magical 5% of the population participating?

You aren't good with exaggerated and sarcastic statements are you? Or are just being purposefully thick headed? Those numbers aren't real, they're a intentional low-end number of the situation to drive emphasis on the idea Ballista is unpopular.


Oversight?

Nope, I was implying that your "View" of Ballista is narrowed to your little handful of people community who actually do the event. Even if you had 200 participants regularly, Thats still only about 0.1~0.2% of the Entire population doing Ballista. If you told me you had 2,000 people regularly doing Ballista with you, I'd probably still point out thats still about 1~2% of the current population.

I'm not saying you can't enjoy Ballista, but claiming its perfect is probably one of the more confounding things I've ever heard. So tell me, How many people do you actually have participating regularly in your Ballista? Again, the games population is what, about ~150,000? I really just don't know.


Did you really?

Every. Last. Word. Of that post. I didn't read your other posts, But i read the one i quoted. To the extent i could.


That would insinuate that you read my last post and your comprehension of ballista tactics is running in circles around each other?

actually, The Running around in a circle was more of a joke That i find funny, and thats all that matters, ever. Because thats all people do in Ballista. engage and run around in circles trying to avoid being hit. I mean, Except the RNG Who stood there and took it like a good Galka.


I appreciate the attempt at being witty, But unfortunately, Your post further outlines my point.

If your point is "Ballista sucks and I'm entirely too thickheaded to see why it sucks so hard", I can agree with you on this, If its anything but that, I can't say I'm outlining it. Ballista sucks as is. Its a half-had event with absolutely no effort put into it. Look at PVP in other games to really see how it could be done well. PVP in FFXI was a half-hearted attempt to appeal to the people crying for PVP.

Thats the core of the issue though, FFXI from the beginning was designed completely to be PVE Only. When FFXI was first released, there was no PVP, FFXI's vision was a PVE Game entirely, There was enough demand to add PVP, but SE didn't want PVP, they wanted a world where people co-operate. Or something to that extent, Theres an interview about it from waaaaay back when. However, when PVP Was added, There was no real thought to balance in it. It was just thrown in.

The game was never designed to be PVP, there is no PVP Balance when JA's and JT's are considered, or Weaponskills, etc. The game is designed around PVE, so when PVP is tossed into a core-designed PVE Game, It creates Ballista. Penalties for switching armor because they had to think of a way to stop that from being abused, etc, and why some WS and spells seem to be ungodly powerful in PVP, capable of one-shotting players. Even the battle system is not designed for PVP.

Everything about Ballista is a failed attempt to integrate PVP to an entirely from-the-core PVE Designed game. They did a decent job, but the event lacks any spirit or reason. Its just 'there', and has gotten I believe next to no updates or adjustments since its release.

Its not entirely Ballista's fault either, Its just this game was designed ground-up to be complete PVE, and if you try to integrate PVP into a game designed for PVE, it becomes clunky, and you get crap like Penalties for switching gear, which is a designed aspect of the entire game you're suppose to use to maximize your job.

So no, the event is not perfect, its very very far from perfect. I'm not saying you can't enjoy the event, Its just not perfect.

[Evviva]

They did answer your questions, both Karbuncle and Alhanelem. I'll give it a shot, too, maybe you just need to hear it over and over from different people.
Perfect was immediately recognized as a fallacy, in reality it derived from an opinion that was mentioned here:

If you want uncap official matches: Fenrir
If you want 60 cap official matches: Carbuncle(jp time only) and Lakshmi

Ballista in it's current state is absolutely perfect.
Although, uncap needs a damage adjustment -again-

I've taken it upon myself to promote ballista on Undine - but unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive for people to participate.
An informative post that was completely disregarded and met with scorn entirely for the use of one word.
To elaborate:
Perfect, in this case, is an opinion based on countless hours of research designed to combat an otherwise under researched event. An opening, if you will, for some great information exchange.
"What does this person know that I don't? Their opinion differs greatly from mine."

Instead, in forum fashion I was greeted with anarchy and nescient statements.

Ballista is not perfect, and the fact that you can't simply do it whenever you want and regardless of your server should be a good indicator of that. I love Ballista, but it has barriers to entry that SE needs to resolve before any rank-and-file player will take any interest in it.
How often do you really want to play? Excluding 30, 40 and 50 cap - a typical vana day will include 3 60 cap matches and 3 99 cap official matches. Diorama-Abdjhals-Ghelsba and Abdhaljs Isle-Purgonorgo are available for reservation every 2 real time hours..(really though, reservation is available at any time) the later of the two nullifies the need for a ballista license.
That means 9.6 hours of any given day, official matches are available. Not enough? Between the two venues of Diorama-Abdjhals-Ghelsba and Abdhaljs Isle-Purgonorgo the possibilities are unbounded.

So, let's try this again, without the use of perfect~
When did ballista -stop- being popular?
Was it never popular?
Why do players still devote a blunt of their time to -playing- ballista?

Thanks in advance for answering!


"Players" makes it sound like a lot of people actually do that. But they don't. Only some do, a minor fraction. And it's because these "some" people enjoy it, which says nothing about why others don't or about the state of the event as a whole. Some people enjoy Windows Pinball (including me), that doesn't make it better or even "good". It just means that it falls into a favorable part on the spectrum of things I enjoy.
Ballista is one of the longest lasting events this game has to offer, currently an invisible minority of roughly 300 "Players".
It might be very lucid to forget the ample following this event had with its inception and the countless years people stayed loyal to it's charm.
Did Windows Pinball suddenly stop being enjoyable, did it fall out of the spectrum of things you enjoy?


Yes. I also like how you've indirectly excluded yourself from the playerbase in this sentence, implying that you're fully aware of how lacking in players this event actually is.
Finally!
Somebody who can decipher my hawkish posts!

I never said that the event is not lacking in players, I might have hinted at disagreement:
If there was a lineup of players waiting to get into the diorama, I could see your point.
Instead, I will mention that over the course of the years, ballista has experienced what I like to call the vinification process.
Many have tried ballista, and all forms associated with it, but few have actually prevailed through the obvious and the not so obvious obstacles.
Nowadays, players have a very indiscreet attitude of "Hmmph. I can't be assed"


[list] No rewards. May sound like a poor reason to you, but it's the core of an RPG: developing your character. That's why people love obtaining new gear and getting new spells. Ballista features absolutely zero such content and as such goes against the very nature of MMORPGs, which is why not many people playing this game are into it.
Augmenting equipment might not be as interesting as other activities in the game with a tangible reward, but this reward is most certainly readily available.
Even specifically funding your efforts for one certain piece of equipment could be constituted as a reward.


The game wasn't designed for PvP.
Agreed, but should we stop playing it entirely and dissolve our efforts?
There are options:
So, let's get real for a moment. Players have a choice.
1.) Wait for the dev team to take notice of the numerous threads created and do something about ballista.
2.) Promote ballista on your home server, and hope that it catches on.
3.) Level an alternate character and join a server that still plays.
4.) Server transfer to an aforementioned server.
5.) Log on to the test server, Undine.
6.) Keep swarming the forums with ideas on how ballista should be changed, while consequently arguing with everyone who might have a different opinion.
7.) Do nothing.
My apologies for the crude wording of #6.


People don't wanna change their playstyle entirely for one event. Disabling gear swaps makes every aspect of their usual playstyle (gear for the moment) completely invalid. However, it does not change the requirement for different aspects, only the ability of the players to maximize each one, which is a kick in the nuts. Add to that that they'd have to change all their macros just for it and that alone makes it not worth it for a majority of people.
Ah, I see.. the deterrent is equipment changing, macro rebuilding and the overall adaptation to a not so worthwhile event, okay, got it.
I think this comes down to acceptance. As it is, and has been, ballista and brenner are our only sources of pvp, so it's a matter of accepting these flaws and moving on. This deterrent is entirely too great for a large percentage, and that is okay. Frankly speaking, you either play -or- you don't and wait for an update.


What exactly is your point? I seem to have lost that somewhere along the way. Or you have, I don't know yet which it is. Are you trying to convince us that Ballista is good, even though we have our opinion and you can't argue opinions?
Thank you, I don't believe I have quite localized my point as evidently as I should have.

Ballista is very old, players have come and gone. With it's many imperfections, I personally feel that it is not too late to congregate all remaining ballistars on a favourable server: read Undine.

Thanks for reading.

[Karbuncle]

Your statement was met with opposition because your statement was heinously invalid. Ballista is not perfect.

You're attempting to play the victim here by acting like Helm and I are bullying you for liking Ballista, in reality, We just disagree with the assertion Ballista is perfect. I personally disagree with your apparently bewilderment to the idea people don't think Ballista is perfect/"Popular".

But i see you are now saying this:


So, let's try this again, without the use of perfect~
When did ballista -stop- being popular?
Was it never popular?
Why do players still devote a blunt of their time to -playing- ballista?


So i'll answer that for you. Ballista was popular way back when, well, more popular than it is now, even had a Ballista Royale. It stopped being popular when people realized it had no rewards or reasons to do it other than bragging rights, and that it was a half-had attempt at PVP that had major balance flaws and favored certain jobs heavily.

Just because you know a close-knit cliche of people who enjoy Ballista, Does not equal popular event. Popular would mean that its actually liked and enjoyed daily by a good majority of players, where as Ballista is a wasteland on most every server, no matter the time. Walk of Echoes has some good money items and people farm it now and again, but its not popular.

Ballista in itself is a functioning event, Its just very little planning appears to have gone into it, and the fact FFXI Was a designed PVE Game really shows in Ballista. Strategy involves running around in circles, and it removes key aspects of the game (Gear swapping).

So again i state, Enjoy your Ballista to its full extent, but open your eyes and realizes its very far from Popular or perfect. It caters to a very small niche amount of people. Every player has likely Ballista'd once or twice, But only that small niche of player regularly does it. Its great for those with competitive spirit, but If there was a Top 10 of PVP Events amongst MMO's/Games, FFXI Wouldn't make it, It probably wouldn't make the top 100.

What it really boils down too is Ballista is a poorly executed event with no rewards, thats why its never going to be popular, unless its changed.

I get what you're saying, Hell, I see where you're coming from, its just Ballista is really a failed event. People play Ballista probably slightly more than people do MMM, or Chocobo Races, The event has its group/following of devoted players, but as a community whole, the event is dead to most people.

Its not to say you can't have fun with it, Its just to say I feel the OP Has a valid point in asking for an update.

[Zerich]

I just want to camp the maws, FC's, gimp pt's, and outskirts of towns to pwn sum n00bz.

[Karbuncle]

And a little something to add...

Wanting Ballista to become more popular is always good. because as is, Theres probably less than 5% of the entire population who even knows theres NPC that exist to tell you Ballista schedules.

That is the universal symbol of a failed event. It would be nice if it got some kind of update. I'm sure a lot of people would complain, but if there was a big "Ballista/PVP Patch" I think it would be for the better of a game, It would give people a reason to actually get the best armor.

This patch would have to address a lot of Issues

*Accessibility. They need to add an area like "The Arena", A "Any time you want" Kind of battle area to challenge others. Dior-Ghelsba was nice, But its 1 zone, Abj-Island.. Same problem. A full Arena Battle area with multiple "Fields" to combat on would be ideal. Accessible any time.

*Rewards. Give rewards that make it worth doing as well. It doesn't need to be epic, But something other than doing it for shits and giggles. I can't honestly make any suggestions, But adding Victory spoils to the winner might be a bit nice. Doesn't need to be huge, Just so long as its not logs and ores.

*Fixing of the System. Find a way to work around Swapping gear, even if it means locking your Characters Visual model during Ballista matches, so when you swap gear, you wont blink. A big big issue for me, and a lot of others, is gear swap penalties. It cheapens Ballista. Also completely rebalancing Weaponskills and magics inside Ballista would help. which brings me to my next point

*Tanaka the event: A.K.A Balance. There needs to be serious consideration to abilities and damage formulas/etc in Ballista. Some jobs are admittedly way to overpowered. Sure theres ways to combat it, But no job should have the ability to floor you in 1-2 hits max, in a time-frame of a few seconds.

---

Now, In my opinion, I think while in Ballista, All players max HP Should be doubled. Battles are way to short in Ballista and usually consist of "Hit until you get TP > WS, Whoever gets TP first wins!", There should be a little more than that. I can't give you any ideas but hey, it would be nice.

[Evviva]

Ballista in it's current state is absolutely perfect.
Break that down.

In it's current state it is absolutely perfect.
This means, that after countless struggles(read: playing the game) and many hours of research, we have finally found a way to perfect and adapt to the imperfect system that is in place and co-exist... is this even slightly appealing?

Note: If an opponent is circling you, there are numerous courses of action you can take, the most known counter is locking on and walking backwards.. preferrably with your back parallel to a wall. But be aware that your opponent can just as easily, unlock and walk through your defensive stance.
- Equipment swapping? Tweak your sets to perfection, so that you may adjust accordingly when not engaged - you're a white mage that just home pointed. major aspir target? no problem, slap on some dark resist equipment(60 cap only, 99 cap seems to need 200+ resistance - whereas in 60 cap, the magic number is 100) and be weary of every slot you exchanged, adjusting your playstyle accordingly.
- To add, learning how to quarry correctly will increase your offensive and defensive output ten-fold.
Of course, these are some of the strategies used in the current available system. If you do not like the system... well the solution is simple.

I'm dealing in the now, and I'm completely agreeing that ballista is not perfect in it's entirety, but we sucked it up and are enjoying the content presented for what it is.
That's not to say that future updates are not welcome, which seems to be how my post(s) have been interpreted.

Before the notion of this being applicable only to our group, guess what.. we are here and reaching out to anyone who cares!

Not once do I mention that ballista as a whole is not perfect.
Not once do I mention that ballista is a wildly popular event.

I simply asked -3- questions to help myself and my "niche" group understand the masses.

I sincerely thank you and anyone else who might take the time for answering those questions.
I truly do hope the development team takes notice and initializes action toward enriching the experience.

[Evviva]

Now, In my opinion, I think while in Ballista, All players max HP Should be doubled. Battles are way to short in Ballista and usually consist of "Hit until you get TP > WS, Whoever gets TP first wins!", There should be a little more than that. I can't give you any ideas but hey, it would be nice.

It is entirely possible to have a body boost or a giants drink on for a large portion of any given match.

Not to discredit your suggestion, I do hope it does come to fruition~

[Minibuddha]

I agree with Evviva. Its fine as it is. I love the design and what to and how to go about. Im not perfrct but I love playing it and challenging yourself. The reward is being there and doing something different non Abyssea, non voidwatch material. As ive been around since 2004 I enjoy different things. Storylines, battles, different things. Ballista is always different. Not leveling, beating Shinryu 1400 times its very different. That is why I love it. I can bring many jobs and enjoy it. Thus I do. That is what I enjoy. Let people have opinions Evviva's is brilliant. So dont go bashing others for ideas. If you are going to troll, go find a bridge k thx.

[Urteil]

And a little something to add...

Wanting Ballista to become more popular is always good. because as is, Theres probably less than 5% of the entire population who even knows theres NPC that exist to tell you Ballista schedules.

That is the universal symbol of a failed event. It would be nice if it got some kind of update. I'm sure a lot of people would complain, but if there was a big "Ballista/PVP Patch" I think it would be for the better of a game, It would give people a reason to actually get the best armor.

This patch would have to address a lot of Issues

*Accessibility. They need to add an area like "The Arena", A "Any time you want" Kind of battle area to challenge others. Dior-Ghelsba was nice, But its 1 zone, Abj-Island.. Same problem. A full Arena Battle area with multiple "Fields" to combat on would be ideal. Accessible any time.

*Rewards. Give rewards that make it worth doing as well. It doesn't need to be epic, But something other than doing it for shits and giggles. I can't honestly make any suggestions, But adding Victory spoils to the winner might be a bit nice. Doesn't need to be huge, Just so long as its not logs and ores.

*Fixing of the System. Find a way to work around Swapping gear, even if it means locking your Characters Visual model during Ballista matches, so when you swap gear, you wont blink. A big big issue for me, and a lot of others, is gear swap penalties. It cheapens Ballista. Also completely rebalancing Weaponskills and magics inside Ballista would help. which brings me to my next point

*Tanaka the event: A.K.A Balance. There needs to be serious consideration to abilities and damage formulas/etc in Ballista. Some jobs are admittedly way to overpowered. Sure theres ways to combat it, But no job should have the ability to floor you in 1-2 hits max, in a time-frame of a few seconds.

---

Now, In my opinion, I think while in Ballista, All players max HP Should be doubled. Battles are way to short in Ballista and usually consist of "Hit until you get TP > WS, Whoever gets TP first wins!", There should be a little more than that. I can't give you any ideas but hey, it would be nice.

Also whoever gets TP first doesn't always win with abilities like:

Mana Wall
Sentinel
Flash
Fan Dance
Third Eye
etc.

And the ability to run around in large amounts of -DT than ever thought possible @ 75. Getting TP is a big part of it but there are many ways around it.

Weaponskills used to NOT be balanced when they would one shot everyone before the softcap of 999 damage was introduced for singular attacks, the only things you see doing absurd damage are when:

A) You're fighting a noob, or a person who has sacrificed defense for offense/magicalaccuracy/magicaloffense/haste

B)Wildfire.

Even spells like Comet with the lv. 99 Magian Staff have a hard time breaking 800+ on me and thats in a hybrid set of defense/offense for the Black Mage otherwise he'd get floored in three to four swings with no PDT.

WS's like Fudo/Resoultion/Ukkos rarely if ever break the 999 cap (unless they multi hit) and if they are going out in full WS gear/full offense gear they are going to pay for it so its not even feasible to be "one shotting" anyone besides someone who has no idea what they are doing.

1v1 Matches with high level of skill involved do have gear swaps during successful enfeebles or "tp dumps" so it can't be used against you, RDM's swapping from shield/sword to staff setup, or a DRK opening with Drain II in a full absorb set and swapping into a PDT set taking the necessary penalties to do so.

In Team Matches I have many sets based on what enfeebling capabilities the enemy has, whether I will be defending or trying to score, and what people on the opposing team I will be actively hunting down or in some cases avoiding.

Ie.-
If I'm on "Kill the BLM or Breakga Person" duty, I'm going to load a haste setup, with resist and not have a whole bunch of defensive options.





No gear swapping doesn't cheapen anything, if anything it broadens your horizons and forces you to make smarter and more effective decisions.

Knowing what sets to use and switch out tactfully based on your enemy, your opposing team, their make up, your support and plan of attack, is enriching not cheapening.

My DRK running around with -50DT with scripted resist sets or at 65% haste (or more with the proper support) with no long term sacrifice to my defensive capabilities vs magic/enfeebles because I can instantly change on demand: is retarded.

Knowing what gear to pick based on your enemy, nuances in their play style, equipment and composition of your team, is far more cerebral than having a magical wardrobe I can instantly change into during battle.

I do it in PvE it works there, it simply would not work in PvP.

[Evviva]

In ballista, players are exposed to a capacious variety of emotions, and more often than not it brings out the most unfavorable side of people.
Coincidentally, the remaining ballistars are 90% japanese... cultural disparities?

In my opinion, this is a considerable factor of the decline.

[Atomic_Skull]

I just remember this post on Allakhazam from back in 2004:


I dont see it that way. I see one on one fights as something you would do in Norg. You would talk to the guard at the gate and ask him about PvP. You get a cut scene where the guard tells you that it happens but its illegal. He tells you how in fact they just arrested a ring that was staging fights down in the galka district last week. It seems some of the people have Tenshodo connections. You go to the galka district and talk to the galka that needed the zinc ore. It seems he is in trouble again. He owes money to tenshodo and has been fighting trying to win the money he needs. The fights are just to harsh though and the injuries are getting worse with each one. He doenst know if he will be able to win the next fight and if he doenst,the Tenshodo wont be happy. Cordelia shows up and overhears. She is very angry that he is doing this and wants to pay the tenshodo back herself. He wont accept it and stormes out. Cordelia then asks you if you can go talk to them and get them to accept the money. You go to the warehouse in port bastok and talk to the people there. They say they are happy to take her money,but there is a fight scheduled,and a fight theres going to be. He suggests that if you take the galkas place in the fight,he will accept the money and release him from his debt. He tells you to go talk to a man in norg. You talk to the man in norg,get a cut scene. He isnt happy that he wont have a galka in the arena,but "I guess even someone as pathetic as you will do,so long as there is blood for the crowd" He calls over a pirate moogle and your are warped to teh arena. You must fight a level capped battle where you basically get the $@#$ beat out of you. If you can take a certain amount of damage before going down,you get a cut scene.Your told you must have impressed,becuase he usually doesnt let anyone out of the ring alive. You are now allowed to have PVP fights in the arena.

You would talk to the "Pirate Moogle". (yes,he would have an eye patch and call you matey instead of kupo) You would both agree on a level cap (could be asymetric even,like 45rdm vs 47pld). You might even wager some money on it. The pirate moogle would then warp you to the steel cage,with a hord or screaming virtual spectators watching, where you would fight to the death. If you die,you lose experience,becuase this is Norg,and unlike balista,its real combat. I can see the pirate moogles response now. "Of course you loose xp when you die,what do you think this is matey? a game? Go back and play your little balista game if your not up for a real challenge. (all his pirate moogle buddies would laugh at you)

[Evviva]

I may have posted some things that I could see how people could take out of context.
My only wish is for people to see how good the current ballista is. All improvements needed aside.

[Alhanelem]

In it's current state it is absolutely perfect. ... My only wish is for people to see how good the current ballista is.Please, stop saying this.

If it was so perfect, it would have more players. Period, end of story.

It may be perfect *for you*, but not for everyone else. I understand you're just trying to emphasize how much fun you have with it. But that can be said with "ballista is great" not "ballista is perfect." You need to realize why ballista is not as popular as it could have been and offer your own ideas and ways that it could be made more attractive to current non-players of ballista. Promoting it helps, but it's clearly not enough to make it more mainstream.

You don't need to tell anyone in this thread that ballista is *good*. Most of the people posting in this thread already enjoy ballista. But we cannot ignore the fact that it needs attention on SE's part if it is to ever catch on to a greater extent than it does now. There are just too many things getting in the way of more people participating. My goal and desire is to break down some of those barriers so that whenever someone wants to break from the grind, they can do it in this game and hop in to some Ballista. Just going around spouting how perfect and amazing it is won't achieve that.



No gear swapping doesn't cheapen anythingJust so you're aware, the only reason the gear swap restriction exists is to prevent the abuse of the blinking "feature" to make people lose their target lock on you. If blinking didn't happen, this "feature" probably wouldn't exist.

And a few notes on your posts further back. You responded to my criticism of your overbearing nature by quoting me being finicky about what kinds of matches I like and suggesting that I'm "overbearing" as a result. That's not being overbearing. That's just stating what ballista matches I prefer. and "Prefer" doesn't mean I'm not open at all to anything else. You keep shoving down everyone's throats how perfect you think the game is and how everyone should play it because it's nothing short of that. You are trying too hard to convince people, ignoring all flaws and insisting to everyone that you're right about what you say. That's being overbearing ("arrogant" also comes to mind). I didn't tell you this to offend you, I told you this because I enjoy ballista too, I know people who enjoy it, and I want to bring more players in- but I recognize that just telling people "hey there's this amazing thing in the game called ballista" is not going to cut it by itself.

All you needed to do to have more support behind you was recognize that ballista *is lots of fun*, rather than *is perfect.*

per·fect  [adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings.

You just need to get off your high horse and work with the other fans of ballista in this thread, instead of work against them. A revival of ballista would actually bring me more fully back to the game, as I haven't been playing a lot recently (and nearly every time I log on, I find myself trying to get some people to play it). But that won't happen if we ignore its problems.

[Minibuddha]

Please, stop saying this.

If it was so perfect, it would have more players. Period, end of story.

It may be perfect *for you*, but not for everyone else. I understand you're just trying to emphasize how much fun you have with it. But that can be said with "ballista is great" not "ballista is perfect." You need to realize why ballista is not as popular as it could have been and offer your own ideas and ways that it could be made more attractive to current non-players of ballista. Promoting it helps, but it's clearly not enough to make it more mainstream.

You don't need to tell anyone in this thread that ballista is *good*. Most of the people posting in this thread already enjoy ballista. But we cannot ignore the fact that it needs attention on SE's part if it is to ever catch on to a greater extent than it does now. There are just too many things getting in the way of more people participating. My goal and desire is to break down some of those barriers so that whenever someone wants to break from the grind, they can do it in this game and hop in to some Ballista. Just going around spouting how perfect and amazing it is won't achieve that.

Just so you're aware, the only reason the gear swap restriction exists is to prevent the abuse of the blinking "feature" to make people lose their target lock on you. If blinking didn't happen, this "feature" probably wouldn't exist.

And a few notes on your posts further back. You responded to my criticism of your overbearing nature by quoting me being finicky about what kinds of matches I like and suggesting that I'm "overbearing" as a result. That's not being overbearing. That's just stating what ballista matches I prefer. and "Prefer" doesn't mean I'm not open at all to anything else. You keep shoving down everyone's throats how perfect you think the game is and how everyone should play it because it's nothing short of that. You are trying too hard to convince people, ignoring all flaws and insisting to everyone that you're right about what you say. That's being overbearing ("arrogant" also comes to mind). I didn't tell you this to offend you, I told you this because I enjoy ballista too, I know people who enjoy it, and I want to bring more players in- but I recognize that just telling people "hey there's this amazing thing in the game called ballista" is not going to cut it by itself.

All you needed to do to have more support behind you was recognize that ballista *is lots of fun*, rather than *is perfect.*

per·fect  [adj., n. pur-fikt; v. per-fekt] entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings.

You just need to get off your high horse and work with the other fans of ballista in this thread, instead of work against them. A revival of ballista would actually bring me more fully back to the game, as I haven't been playing a lot recently (and nearly every time I log on, I find myself trying to get some people to play it). But that won't happen if we ignore its problems.


I still find it balanced. Race, jobs make it a factor. A tarutaru drk will not hit as hard as an elvaan. A galka blm will not do as much magic damage as a taru. You have to be clever and think it through. I come as a taru drg and I can be mean as a snake, but if I have 5 sidewinders hit me im done after 2. So if you build hp, defense and higher attack, a taru drg can be a force. This makes things balance. Its not perfect but this is why its a stratigical thinking game and not a halo wanna be. You have to outsmart yoyr opponent and take that person out. People think RDM you are doomed. If you are a PUP you can take on a RDM. A PLD not as much. its thinking, stratagy, not pull trigger. My suggestion: come ballista one time. Try facing people, you will be excited and yet improve things.
people are different. Different jobs happen. Its a sport of fun win or lose.

[Alhanelem]

I still find it balanced. Race, jobs make it a factor. A tarutaru drk will not hit as hard as an elvaan. A galka blm will not do as much magic damage as a taru.The only real factor in race (the only one that really matters) is HP. Tarutaru can have several hundred less HP than a galka- but the INT difference between a galka and a tarutaru is not going to result in a several hundred damage difference. This is pretty much the only glaring balance issue. Some jobs have some stand-out combos, but they have counters and smart tactics can avoid getting ruined by them, so in the end, most of these are fine the way they are.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me. I already know all this stuff. Ballista is a team game. Not every job is supposed to be perfectly matched against every other job. The balance and the strategy comes out most when you play ballista the way it was designed, with teams of players, not one vs one.

The balance is not perfect, but no game ever does have perfect balance- something to take into consideration.

Even something that is great can always be improved. Ballista is no exception, and while it is lots of fun, it could still be made better. "It's not a PvP game" is not the reason ballista didn't perform as well as it could have, even though I know quite a few people who throw that statement around.

[Evviva]

One more time for the lurkers! :D

Currently, two servers hold 60 cap official matches - Lakshmi and Carbuncle (Fenrir server I've heard has 60cap matches occur as well, but need some confirmation!).
The JP population of Lakshmi has been dwindling.. the majority has moved to Carbuncle in an attempt to make one universal ballista server.

As for 99 cap matches: Fenrir is known for this, and I've personally heard that it is still active.. but confirmation is needed!


The linkshell I am part of, BallistaRevolution is situated on Lakshmi.
We currently have about 10-15 active members, mix of na/eu/jp.
Our website can be found here :http://vyiv.wordpress.com/

We are always looking for strong members, and we take ballista very seriously.
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/27964/was-ballista-your-favorite-thing-to-do-in-ffxi/

Both servers have diorama specialty games called "Hako". Japanese wording for Box.
Essentially, the concept of Hako was introduced with the inception of the BallistaRoyale, and conclusively, is quite similar. In other words, this player made event is very old. The players that do partake are very profficient~

The rules:
- The level cap is 60
- Subjobs are allowed
- Matches are 15 minutes in length - all or nothing(in the case of a 5v5 or 6v6 the time allotted is extended to 20 minutes, with a 3 minute preparatory phase).
- Outside items are NOT allowed
- No duplicate main jobs, all jobs are mirrored, i.e; SAM/WAR DRK/SAM MNK/WAR vs SAM/WAR DRK/SAM MNK/WAR
- The following jobs are allowed to participate: SAM, WAR, DRK, MNK, DRG, RNG, PLD, RDM, WHM (In special cases, BLU DNC SCH are allowed to participate)
- Sub jobs are static for all jobs: SAM/WAR, WAR/SAM, DRK/SAM, DRG/SAM, MNK/WAR, RNG/SAM, PLD/WAR(or /WHM), RDM/BLM(or /WHM), WHM/SCH(or /RDM, or /BLM) - if allowed to participate: DNC/SAM, SCH/WHM(or /RDM) and BLU/WAR(or /WHM)
- Auto-balance rules are applied
- Minimum amount of members per team is 3
- Maximum amount of members per team is 6
- A called game difference of 20 petras will be applied
The rules are not always this static, we do make exceptions - although the points listed are the general outline!

For a video preview of Hako:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKgpqgbKrfE (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LST8uoVXSws (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMzMxm2AvCE (Part 3)

Courtesy of Teishi/Desuyo: http://www.youtube.com/user/deshi0?feature=watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8OhV6Bn7qM&context=C4d6652bADvjVQa1PpcFMVcy2BNoJ3cfNnzwgDoe-L1G4NO2IdQyQ= (4v4 game)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A9ovloFj28&context=C4b8b229ADvjVQa1PpcFMVcy2BNoJ3ceO6dUamzZOx-k3gZiIl6Qs= (5v5 game)

Courtesy of Vyii: http://www.youtube.com/user/vyiv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88ctaU7DvBI&feature=plcp&context=C4095f9cVDvjVQa1PpcFMEr9G9CiPoTiphYaanuf0vJlZvpYRiw94%3D (Game 4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--WjZJOqz1o&feature=plcp&context=C4da096cVDvjVQa1PpcFMEr9G9CiPoTmYf1PeCbrRzqneOISdMYq0%3D (Game 5)

Courtesy of Zirkk: http://www.youtube.com/user/Zirk1337?feature=watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwKzqE9Wqz0&context=C48376ddADvjVQa1PpcFP4RpbhyUnIVP0znfG_dpW7lvHupQANJK8=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKCC6Cjn-LQ&context=C4e10946ADvjVQa1PpcFP4RpbhyUnIVJ17ulXrlYsG7Xn8p4IZ3i0=

Courtesy of Teska: http://www.youtube.com/user/Prejdent

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFqXjAOertE (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdKhyA5g9Mw (Part 2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrxeZqjmR0k (5v5 game)

These videos are my own: http://www.youtube.com/user/Evviva3980?feature=mhee

It should be noted, if you are looking to participate in hako matches.. we do not tolerate any rude behaviour or derogatory remarks - to us ballista is a sport; all laws of sportsmanship apply.

The test server Undine, seemed to be the perfect opportunity to hold any kind of ballista, but thus far it was met with only mild success: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/28447/ballista-test-server/



Thanks for reading~ ;)

[Natenn]

They really should have a pure pvp srever D= im not server hopping just for that, be nice if they had a pvp specific server that held matches in any zone you want.

[Scudo]

They really should have a pure pvp srever D= im not server hopping just for that, be nice if they had a pvp specific server that held matches in any zone you want.

That would be great =)

[Minibuddha]

They really should have a pure pvp srever D= im not server hopping just for that, be nice if they had a pvp specific server that held matches in any zone you want.

That would solve a lot. or the idea of a gladiator type stadium for pvp.

As for what im saying on balance, dont judge ballista. Keep trying it. I love it.

[Oakrest]

I also think they should just add a PvP server or two that you can transfer to - and while outside town, anyone not in your party could be engaged.

[Alhanelem]

Ballista should really be made good and attractive enough to be played on all servers. nobody should have to move servers just to play one part of the game.

and this 'hako" idea is problematic at best because not everyone plays every job and thus it wouldn't always be possible to mirror jobs and then some people would be excluded on that basis. You also shouldn't have to do this to have a good, balanced game. Having a rule like this is basically an admission of balance flaws. Also, you're excluding more than half the jobs from the game. There's no good reason for this. It makes no sense to go around spouting "ballista is perfect' and then suggesting we all try a bunch of house rules that were made up clearly to address balance issues. Any rule set that says certain jobs can not play is not a good one. (In my particular case, every job I have except one would be excluded from these house rules)

Please, stop trying to pull everyone to you and instead focus on what we can do to make the event more popular in general. We need to continue to be loud about this until the existence of the fan base is acknowledged.

[Evviva]

Having a rule like this is basically an admission of balance flaws.
Without a doubt~


We need to continue to be loud about this until the existence of the fan base is acknowledged.
I'm not quite sure how much louder we can get.

[Alhanelem]

How about a ballista competition on the test server? :D



This would be awesome and I would like to work towards doing something like that in the future (trust me it has been on my mind!). I can't make any promises, but give me some time and I will see what I can do :)


A small acknowledgement. :) Try to show your support for something like this.

[Evviva]

:D
Good find!
Very happy to see =)

[Alukat]

They really should have a pure pvp srever D= im not server hopping just for that, be nice if they had a pvp specific server that held matches in any zone you want.

or an arena on each server, this arena could be opened 4 times each day for 3 hours.
Then you have to accumulate pvp-points and they can be exchanged for rare crafting mats , trial items,special r/e pvp gear.
Also new trials could be added to augment the EG gear, the items for this trials are only purchaseable with PVP points.
The advantage of this is that you have to do the PVE stuff to get the basic item (proof of being good at PVE) and the PVP stuff to augment it (PVP proof).

[Alhanelem]

Anything that involves the word 'server' is too much work.

[Evviva]

Hmmm...

Sometimes I wonder if we're ever going to get a clear response ;s

[Alhanelem]

Starting to look like I'll have to stick to XIV If I want to get my pvp and final fantasy fix at the same time (But even that is several months away =\ )

[Evviva]

Kudos to everyone that believed SE might finally give Ballista some love.. roughly 6 years after the Ballista Royale. I salute you~

[Alistaire]

What are you guys even talking about? This game has excellent PVP. It's called parsing.

[Camiie]

I don't mind them expanding PVP as long as they:

1. Never try to balance any aspect of the rest of the game around what happens in PVP
2. Make sure that any gear rewards from PVP are only usable in PVP
3. Require an opt-in to be eligible for duel invites, rather than an opt-out to avoid them
4. Have duels end before K.O. status
5. Have no dueling in towns even if that town is one where battles are possible such as Al Zhabi or WotG cities

Basically PVP should never disrupt the rest of the game in any way. It should never intrude on anyone who doesn't want to be involved with it.

[Evviva]

I don't mind them expanding PVP as long as they:

1. Never try to balance any aspect of the rest of the game around what happens in PVP
2. Make sure that any gear rewards from PVP are only usable in PVP
3. Require an opt-in to be eligible for duel invites, rather than an opt-out to avoid them
4. Have duels end before K.O. status
5. Have no dueling in towns even if that town is one where battles are possible such as Al Zhabi or WotG cities

Basically PVP should never disrupt the rest of the game in any way. It should never intrude on anyone who doesn't want to be involved with it.

I couldn't agree more!
Very wise post, cheers Camiie~

[CapriciousOne]

You don't have a clue on RDM for PvP. Have you ~ever~ fought a MNK or BLU before?

The gradual resistance is very slow. You'll get more then enough spells off to kill the target before resistance every becomes an issue. The whole point of those spells is to reduce the options available to the player and force them to spend their time on items and not combating you. You deliberately avoided addressing the real reason you use sleep, the stun effect. If the other player hasn't used a poison pot, that's just a bonus. You kill them with drain / aspir and DoT's over time, typically within 5 min but someone with a ton of items can last 10 min.

Poison II is 10hp/tick for 120 seconds, 40 ticks for 400 damage.

Sab doubles both the duration and DoT effect of Poison II. You get 20hp/tick at 240 seconds, 80 ticks for 1600 damage. Combined with drain spam it means your target eventually dies. This is for a one vs one contest where your just running them around. Which is ridiculously easy to do. In a team vs team fight, you would Sab Paralyze II onto the MNK, DNC, SAM or whomever on the other team relies on JA's the most.

One you seem to forget there are ranged weapons capable of stunning, paralyzing, and sleeping you to keep you from running around as well as drain hp/mp while you do as well.

Second, while Saboteur paralyze I/II is potent, if timed right by a competent dancer it can still be removed rather easily and quickly. In addition with /DNC almost any job can weight you down with Desperate Flourish if your running around is becoming annoying not to mention the ability to self skill chain for max damage very easily if they are equiped with a "TP Bonus+100" and ws at 100tp not to mention have the Jinx Discus with a curse effect to reduce your max HP for a bit if it procs.

If I'm correct rdm doesnt exactly have a direct way to get rid of that without subbing /whm or using items and even then are they even able to access that spell as /whm anyway? Dont get me wrong RDM is my mainstay and has many options but the worse thing you can do is overestimate your ability and underestimate your opponents.

[saevel]

Most of the things you listed are short range effects. At short ranges RDM is vulnerable and should do whatever it can to maintain a distance from everyone else, especially BLUs. Ranged weapons are a joke in PvP, players are not monsters who just stand there looking at you, they move around and thus make ranged weapons nearly useless.

The whole idea was to manipulate your opponent and to force them to do the things you want them to do. Sab Para II is stupidly strong, DNC and /DNC have 1 shot are removing it and if failed have an annoying timer to wait on. Even if removed normal Para II is still strong and can be reapplied, and even still it forced the opponent to use their abilities to remove it in the first place. You slowly drain / aspir / ect.. your opponent down until they die while denying them any way to actually hurt you.

[CapriciousOne]

Most of the things you listed are short range effects. At short ranges RDM is vulnerable and should do whatever it can to maintain a distance from everyone else, especially BLUs. Ranged weapons are a joke in PvP, players are not monsters who just stand there looking at you, they move around and thus make ranged weapons nearly useless.

The whole idea was to manipulate your opponent and to force them to do the things you want them to do. Sab Para II is stupidly strong, DNC and /DNC have 1 shot are removing it and if failed have an annoying timer to wait on. Even if removed normal Para II is still strong and can be reapplied, and even still it forced the opponent to use their abilities to remove it in the first place. You slowly drain / aspir / ect.. your opponent down until they die while denying them any way to actually hurt you.


I know what the idea is and you are making the assumption that the person you are contesting isnt already geared up with their opponent in mind. From what i seen so far as people leveling and farming thought that might actually be true for most but not me. If i'm a non mage job I gear for mage encounters when possible and i'm sure others do as well since they do the most damage with their magic. Some people like to gear to their strengths in hope of just doing massive damage quickly to end the fight, I on the other gear to improve survivability by suring up some of my weaknesses a little more. I'm sure that others that do that as well but from what i've seen online, and read on these forums, there isnt many.

XD Also you talk as if our movement speed is super duper fast enough to run out the range of a ranged weapon or something and like everything else in this game, accuracy is subject to skill so sounds to me like your not into skill up ranged weapons at all. In addition there are plenty of elemental resistance pieces to lower the potency of direct damage spells as well as enfreebles even with saboteur to make it far easier to withstand most of those attacks if people bother to acquire/craft them. As per my experience I dont see RDM as all that "vulnerable" up close but then again I solo more than party so I dont face NM mobs like in aby all that often to say that with authority. In any case, the calculations in pvp would be way different than that of pve and the implications of player skill would weigh more heavily because we dont get complete or insanely high resistance against stuff like mobs. As a result, if PVP it was introduced and implemented I think your statements would prove highly overstated in reality but until they actually do we unfortunately can only speculate :(

[Caketime]

Most of the things you listed are short range effects. At short ranges RDM is vulnerable and should do whatever it can to maintain a distance from everyone else, especially BLUs. Ranged weapons are a joke in PvP, players are not monsters who just stand there looking at you, they move around and thus make ranged weapons nearly useless.

The whole idea was to manipulate your opponent and to force them to do the things you want them to do. Sab Para II is stupidly strong, DNC and /DNC have 1 shot are removing it and if failed have an annoying timer to wait on. Even if removed normal Para II is still strong and can be reapplied, and even still it forced the opponent to use their abilities to remove it in the first place. You slowly drain / aspir / ect.. your opponent down until they die while denying them any way to actually hurt you.

So a Ranger has never shot you in PVP before? Also, how would you deal with a player that brings items/gear to counter your spells and enfeebling effects? Also also, has anyone ever tried your strategy and forced you to do what they want, or are all of your examples hypothetical and not based on actual gameplay?

[Demon6324236]

Most people over here seem to restrict the use of items in PvP so not sure that would be much of a problem depending on how people are on the other servers.

[Caketime]

Restricted item use? Lmfao, that's like agreeing to fight a Kung Fu master with both hands tied around your back and blindfolded, sporting a gaping chest wound. Might as well just lie down and die.

[Sunrider]

The jobs in this game are not balanced around PvP, certain jobs have a ridiculous advantage, so much that SE had to create NM's that are immune to that jobs abilities.While I agree that PvP should be balanced so all classes have some kind of fighting chance, we're already playing game where not all jobs are created or invited equally. Some are better for certain events than others, there's no reason PvP wouldn't be the same.



2. Make sure that any gear rewards from PVP are only usable in PVPWhy?

Just what is the reason that PvE event rewards should be useful anywhere, but fringe events like PvP must only award situationally useful items? I didn't think anyone particularly appreciated items with bonuses limited to Campaign or Besieged or Conquest, why would we want to continue that trend?


5. Have no dueling in towns even if that town is one where battles are possible such as Al Zhabi or WotG citiesAgain, why?

If the environment is available for PvE, there should be no harm in allowing it for PvP, so long as disinterested players are naturally excluded from the proceedings (which you detailed with that opt-in provision). If it harms none of the players not participating, what problem is there in hosting duels/battle royales in Whitegate?

[Demon6324236]

I didn't mean 1 player can use items and the other cant, which seems to be how you took it. Both players are still on equal footing item wise, I was simply saying though that using items to counter enfeebling wouldn't work at least here, which is probably why /SCH tends to be the dominant subjob thanks to Light Arts/Addendum:White giving the -ra spells to remove them.

[Caketime]

I took it as people don't use items as some sort of honor code thing, electing to use only their available abilities/spells. If that's true, then lol.

[Demon6324236]

Nah the rules are just generally set to where no items are allowed. Either way I myself don't see PvP worth spending money on anyways so it makes things more in my favor to be honest as I only tend to PvP friends, or at least only for fun.

[Caketime]

I play BST, so I don't mind spending a little extra here and there for fun. I should see about setting up some Brenner matches soon, all this talk of pvp is making me want to work around the derp scheduling to thump on my LS buddies.

[CapriciousOne]

Restricted item use? Lmfao, that's like agreeing to fight a Kung Fu master with both hands tied around your back and blindfolded, sporting a gaping chest wound. Might as well just lie down and die.
LMFAO I swear that is so the truth about PvP especially on DC Universe Online that is all you hear about all day unless you filter it out. "boohoo you cured yourself that only reason you won sob sob sob" I be like dude its a FIGHT the goal is to not let your opponent kick your behind at any and all cost not be a freaking punching bag. I swear people are so afraid of a long drawn out battle its down right sad and pathetic. The longer the fight takes the more rewarding is to get the victory. You should see it, down right hilarious.

I mean I want my opponent to bring all he/she can to defeat me so when I still beat them regardless they definitively know who is boss. On racing games, I do the same bring your fastest car and race me no matter what I bring to the race so what when I destroy you, you know you never stood a chance anyway. To me that is what real PvP. I mean it not my fault if people dont have the forethought to level up a craft like alchemy and cooking to help them boost their combat capacity and I did nor is it their fault if i didnt level either of those to 110 like them if I lose. I say if you PvP don't come for battle, prepare for WAR LOL.

[Camiie]

Why?

Just what is the reason that PvE event rewards should be useful anywhere, but fringe events like PvP must only award situationally useful items? I didn't think anyone particularly appreciated items with bonuses limited to Campaign or Besieged or Conquest, why would we want to continue that trend?

Because PVP IS a fringe event, and no one should have to PVP for a possible best-in-slot item. PVP needs to be wholly and completely optional., and that's the only way to guarantee it stays that way.


Again, why?

If the environment is available for PvE, there should be no harm in allowing it for PvP, so long as disinterested players are naturally excluded from the proceedings (which you detailed with that opt-in provision). If it harms none of the players not participating, what problem is there in hosting duels/battle royales in Whitegate?

Imagine people dueling in Port Jeuno. Tell me that doesn't add to people's lag and slowdown. That certainly affects disinterested players. And please don't tell me they should leave if it's a problem for them.

[Sunrider]

Imagine people dueling in Port Jeuno. Tell me that doesn't add to people's lag and slowdown. That certainly affects disinterested players. And please don't tell me they should leave if it's a problem for them.I can respect that, though I was talking about areas already open to PvE, so Jeuno isn't a valid example. Any place where one might already fear an incursion (your bad for idling in Whitegate or Bastok [S], for example), wouldn't be any worse for having PvP.


Because PVP IS a fringe event, and no one should have to PVP for a possible best-in-slot item. PVP needs to be wholly and completely optional., and that's the only way to guarantee it stays that way.Obvious statement is obvious.

Any event is fringe if it doesn't offer much of anything. Would you do Salvage time after time if all it's treasures were only useful in Assault? If PvP offered the best drops in the game, people would flock to it regardless of liking for the event, much like the Dynamis or the aforementioned Salvage. Popularity is a shaky argument simply because the popularity of the popular events already hinges on the rewards offered.



But, that's beside the point. Rewards offered from PvP don't have to be exclusive-top-of-the-line-get-this-or-ur-gimp treasure, it could be as simple as side-grades to currently offered stuff, or -1s of rewards from more popular events. There's even the option of borrowing from BCNMs and offering alternative NM drops.

All of the above can satisfy both the regular PvP enthusiast while maybe occasionally enticing someone who isn't normally interested. The point is to offer rewards that aren't super-niche space-takers.