Small Request to Raise Dagger's Base Damage a tad.

[Karbuncle]

Hello again Thief friends! (And DNC's I guess, This affects you!)

I have just a small request to the Dev team. Can they increase Dagger base damage by a small amount? Only level ~80+ ones, As an Example:

Weapon - Original - New
Kila - DMG:38 - DMG:39
Kila +1 - DMG:41 - DMG:42
Kila +2 - DMG:43 - DMG:45
Kila +3 - DMG:45 - DMG:47
Thokcha - DMG:47 - DMG:49
Mandau85 - DMG:46 - DMG:48
Mandau90 - DMG:49 - DMG:51
Mandau95 - DMG:53 - DMG:55
Mandau99 - DMG:55 - DMG:59
Twasthar85 - DMG:45 - DMG:47
Twasthar90 - DMG:48 - DMG:50
Twasthar95 - DMG:52 - DMG:54
Twasthar99 - DMG:55 - DMG:58
Lux Pugio - DMG:48 - DMG:50
Coruscanti - DMG:49 - DMG:51
Supernal Knife - DMG:49 - DMG:52
Asteria - DMG:50 - DMG:53

And basically, all other level ~85+ Daggers have their Base Damage raised by 1-2. I know it doesn't seem like a lot, But i feel daggers got kinda jipped when it came to damage increases from 76~99.

Again, Small request. But something i feel would be a nice upgrade. It'd be a small boost to THF and DNC, but a boost non-the-less.

[Laphine]

i like this.

One exemple i can think of on how dagger got jipped is kikoku vs mandau. Back at 75 it was 42 vs 39 base damage. At 99 it's 64 vs 55. Where is the love SE?!

Then again katana and dagger have similar dps right now. Increasing their base damage would give quite an edge to daggers.

[Karbuncle]

I thought about adding Katana to the list - Honestly, They deserve a small upping as well.

[Laphine]

I wonder. And then how would swords fare there? lol I sense a chain reaction. All high end weapons seem to have similar dps. Oh wait, i just noticed the 2H ones seem to have the highest now. Yeah...it should have been the other way around considering how 2H is favored these days.

[Karbuncle]

Sword has actually gotten a much larger boost than most 1 handed weaponry.

Excalibur actually has higher DPS than Mandau at 99.

[Laphine]

Indeed, it's a shame mandau lost the dps crown. But one-hand weapons sure have close dps. Excal vs mandau is 1880 vs 1875. Now something like ragnarok...1991. Crazy.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, Ragnarok went from Ragnarofl, to epic weapon.

[Kitkat]

Kinda interesting how they reversed the DPS values from 75-99 on some of those eh? I remember Mandau being higher than other relics, now it is under several, but only marginally. Personally I would have liked to see higher than 55 also since it would have increased weapon rank...even if it was just a couple higher. Not sure why it has to be lower....but I sense the "balance" trend has something to do with it.

[Babekeke]

Rmember when comparing dagger vs katana that NIN has an extra 10% delay reduction than THF, and 5% more than DNC, upping their DPS. (except when we're at haste cap)

[Ophannus]

Gungnir used to be 3DMG behind Apocalypse, and Bravura was always 1D behind Gungnir. Now Bravura is 146, Gungnir is 147, and Apocalypse is 154 :/

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Sword has actually gotten a much larger boost than most 1 handed weaponry.

Excalibur actually has higher DPS than Mandau at 99.

It should have a higher DPS than a dagger, all swords should. Daggers are weaker but less Delay with Swords being stronger but with more delay.

[Arcon]

Where is the love SE?!

All the love they stored up for THF over the course of almost a decade was unleashed at once in the magnificence that is Bully. Don't expect any less than five years to go by before they do anything else that could please us, unless, of course, you'd be satisfied with five new TH items, all of them daggers, with lower base damage than any of the suggested ones here. Because SE knows as well as every other person who doesn't play THF that we're nothing but TH whores.

[Laphine]

(true strike) ; ;

I still have high hopes tho, Lv99 means it's time to tweak things around for everyone. No wonder the word of the hour is balance lol.

[Karbuncle]

It should have a higher DPS than a dagger, all swords should. Daggers are weaker but less Delay with Swords being stronger but with more delay.

Daggers are classically generally the king of DPS Weaponry since they're all but f**k-useless otherwise. Swords should not have a higher DPS. They should be slightly behind Dagger, Not far, But slightly behind.

Swords DPS should be close to Dagger, But slightly below. Daggers should not be Weaker and Less Damage over time than Swords. Swords should have Higher Base damage, But Slightly less DPS Than Daggers.

Daggers shouldn't have the Lowest Base Damage and Medium DPS, Generally the scale tips in the direction of

High Damage - Low DPS
Low Damage - High DPS

it was like that at 75 at least, Not everything should be the same (I.E Ragnarok being highest DPS right now i think its a good idea, Only because of how this game works and GS generally frowned upon at level 75), But its like, An unwritten law D:!

Besides, This boost to Daggers wouldn't effect how a BLU or PLD DD's, It'd just make THF and DNC a slight SLIGHT bit more competitive. Enough to make a difference? Maybe not, But enough to make us happy? yes.

[Babekeke]

It should have a higher DPS than a dagger, all swords should. Daggers are weaker but less Delay with Swords being stronger but with more delay.

You're confusing DPS with Base Damage.
DPS = Damage Per Second.
You can have 2 weapons: 1 weak and low delay, 1 strong with high delay with identical DPS. This is the area that relics should be at 99, but Mandau ALWAYS worked out as the highest DPS in the game. Now at 99 Twashtar equals it, and other weapons are surpassing it. It's just not right.

[Falseliberty]

whats sad is way way back SE had to bump dagger base damage once before

totally behind this thou

while we at it how about a bump in marksmanship! B+ maybe? oh oh and some new status bolts to reflect lvl 99
higher lvl acid and bloody bolts! and something to finally trump ziska would be nice(not to mention new bolts would mean something new for crafters to make)
opps sorry didnt mean to derail

[Longshot]

I wouldn't mind a bump in marksmanship AND a decent ranged weapon to use. They already put THF on a bunch of gear with MAB for QD and such and then gave us Last Stand. Sadly I think level 75 Culverin and Cannon shells are the best weapons still available to THFs. Let's fix this.

[Babekeke]

I wouldn't mind a bump in marksmanship AND a decent ranged weapon to use. They already put THF on a bunch of gear with MAB for QD and such and then gave us Last Stand. Sadly I think level 75 Culverin and Cannon shells are the best weapons still available to THFs. Let's fix this.

A Better Xbow than Darkwing +1 please :)

[Karbuncle]

I'm not shamelessly bumping this thread, I just remembered that i still want this.

[Aana]

I think it was all rather planned. At 75 no job that could equip mandau (or any goood daggers) had any DW and at most could get DW2 from /nin. Now thf has native DW3, any job can get DW3 from /nin. Rdm has temper. Brd....lolbrd. I think the dagger damage in general was edged down relative to other options because dagger users (thf and dnc) have stupid amounts of atk speed compared to at 75. Rdm still has temper to work with, and no one cares about brd.

Not that I wouldnt 'mind' a boost, but I really dont feel its neccessary at all. 2handers are already about to get a HUGE nerf bat when they nerf save TP. I wont be on drg getting 40-60TP returns after a WS anymore in VW having a darn 2-3hit build with a multi atk weapon. The rediculous amount of WS frequency for 2handers is going to get a MASSIVE drop. When that happens melee DOT from just hitting mobs means a lot more and that is where thf/nin/dnc completely manhandle 2handers.

[Karbuncle]

I think it was all rather planned. At 75 no job that could equip mandau (or any goood daggers) had any DW and at most could get DW2 from /nin. Now thf has native DW3, any job can get DW3 from /nin. Rdm has temper. Brd....lolbrd. I think the dagger damage in general was edged down relative to other options because dagger users (thf and dnc) have stupid amounts of atk speed compared to at 75. Rdm still has temper to work with, and no one cares about brd.

NIN Didn't get a Katana nerf, Their weapons went up pretty much the same rate. And they gained 2 more traits of Dual Wield IIRC, 1 whole more than THF Gained from 75 (/NIN Dual Wield II)... Same for MNK, MNK's weapons actually got a MAJOR boost, Spharai over doubled its damage, While MNKs continued to get more Martial arts, and Higher base damage from Skill.

Same for Swords, and BLU Got Dual Wield II and III as well.

I just cannot agree with that train of thought. Sorry :(


Not that I wouldnt 'mind' a boost, but I really dont feel its neccessary at all.

THF and DNC are arguably the worst Damage dealers in the game by a wide wide margin. I think its pretty necessary, for nothing more than to simply level the playing field. Besides, its not like adding 2~4 Damage to our weapons would snuff out other jobs, Would just make us more competitive.

Bringing up Ragnarok, DRK since 75 has gotten a JA that went from 30s, to 3min, That increases their Attack by 25% and reduces their Delay by 25%, I don't see Scythe or GS Getting nerfed, IN fact, Ragnarok went from one of the worst "DD" Relic to quite possibly one of the best.

Buffs are handed out in subtle ways everywhere... Except daggers. Dagger WS's are all quite weak comparitively to other WS, and even with SATA, Rarely can match the numbers of a good Ukon WAR, who has no JA Restrictions on making their WS not suck hardcore. (Admittedly, an non-Zerk/Blood-rage Ukkos won't be as epeen as one with, But the WS still holds up strongly on its own)

Shoha as an example as well. Can be spammed for insane damage. Resolution and Upheaval close behind. All these WS have fTP mods sitting around 4.0~5.0, Same as Exenterator, The only difference is that Those weapons have a Base damage in the 120+ Range, while Daggers sit around 47 (Thok).

So even with equal mods, Dagger is always doomed to be significantly weaker from the start, Unless for DNC and THF, you pair it with SA/TA or the Flourishes. Theres no need for Daggers to have such low base damage than its not even a good DPS weapon anymore, as well as having no power-hitting WS, and over-all lack-luster in general.


2handers are already about to get a HUGE nerf bat when they nerf save TP.

Really could care less about 2 handers getting quite possibly the most well deserved nerf in 8 years. They're already so far infront of any other DD by a wide margin this nerf will take them from here:

2handed ------------------------------------------- 1 handers
to
2handed ------------------------------------------ 1 handers

That nerf only widely effected 1 event, Voidwatch, anyway.


I wont be on drg getting 40-60TP returns after a WS anymore in VW having a darn 2-3hit build with a multi atk weapon.

Was broken anyway. Shouldn't judge your opinion on rather a weapon needs adjusting simply because 2handers can no longer have 1 hit builds or were infinitely broken.


The rediculous amount of WS frequency for 2handers is going to get a MASSIVE drop. When that happens melee DOT from just hitting mobs means a lot more and that is where thf/nin/dnc completely manhandle 2handers.

It won't drop off by that much. Sure, They've ruined save TP. But 2handers were ruling 1handers way before Save TP Got abused in VW.

also, When you're getting Haste and March, on top of things like last resort, Or Hasso, The difference in delay between a Dagger and a Great axe is about 1 Second, and when an Ukon can crit for 800+ Outside abyssea, Daggers do not stand a remote chance.

I'm going to show you want i mean by the above. Assuming a THF and a WAR or DRK at Capped/near capped Haste (Easily Obtained with combinations of a BRD/Haste Spell/Hasso/Last resort, Which is present in most real endgame events)

THF: Mandau/Thokcha - Dual wield III, 25% Haste in Gear, Haste (Spell), 1 March.(Whch is overkilling cap i believe)
Delay: 366
At Haste Cap: 74

DRK: Apoc - Last Resort (25%) Haste (15%) Marchs (20%) Gear (25%)
Delay: 513
At Haste cap: 103

WAR: Ukon(D:156) - Hasso (10%) (Hastes 40%) (Gear 25%)
Delay: 482
75% Haste: 121

So while THF maintains the lowest Delay, the Difference in delay between the above is probably about 0.5seconds or less. While THF Can maintain a 25% Haste and 25% Dual Wield (Though they don't "mend" as 50%, But close), WAR can get 25% Gear, and 10% Hasso, and DRK Can get 25% Gear, 25%JA(3/5min) or 10%JA(all the time). SAM as well 25%/10%, DRG 25%/10%.

So THF without outside help is probably has about ~10% more delay reduction than the big hitter 2handers. Not really impressive considering those weapons raw damage potential.

The above serves no real purpose other than show that 2handers will still kick 1 handers, Dagger specifically, up and down the street with or without Save TP being broken, and that Daggers maintain one of the worst damage output possibilities in the game.

They're in need of a buff, this small buff will help them a little, It won't bridge the gap, but it'll make it less horrible.

Please :D

[Laphine]

Yeah i agree with you Karb. Since everyone has DW3 now, daggers having lower natural dps will just make us sit under everyone else. But well that's probably what they want from us anyway. TH ONRY.

edit: oh and 1 march doesn't floor our delay even if we use suppa and raiderang. We go to about 30% delay with that.

[Karbuncle]

Yeah i agree with you Karb. Since everyone has DW3 now, daggers having lower natural dps will just make us sit under everyone else. But well that's probably what they want from us anyway. TH ONRY.

edit: oh and 1 march doesn't floor our delay even if we use suppa and raiderang. We go to about 30% delay with that.

I see, So you'll need both marches? I tried using the BG Formula but i messed it up i guess. lol :X

[Laphine]

need both plus a varying extra oomph from haste samba. Or maybe drop the second march, but samba will be a must. For instance, capped magic haste + capped equip haste + 33% DW = 79.06% delay reduction. If we had samba, removing the DW pieces would be a good idea then. Although it's pretty rare to do stuff at capped magic haste these days (or it was for me) since we need 2hs for that.

[Karbuncle]

that b eing the case just hurts THF a little more their delay would sit around 90 or so then in most situations. While DRks and WARs in the above example would stay the same.

[Laphine]

I guess, if you consider capping haste long before them i good thing. I think it's wasted potential, since you won't really need all that haste you will probably receive because the other dds in the party still need them.

Placing the thf in the same situation of the war, the thf will have 76.65% haste while the war has 75%. 86 delay/round vs 121 delay/round. 71.16 dps vs 77.35 dps.

If we factor stuff like DA/TA/crits, i think the thf can potentially win against the war on melee dps (well, could close the gap for sure). THF lacks the ability to spam epeen ws tho hehe.

[Aana]

Its not quite as simple as "daggers were stronger relative to katanas at 75 so it should be that way at 99".

At 75 Thf had no native DW which meant we HAD to /nin. If your talking about DD potential, it was
75: Thf/nin vs Nin/War
99: Thf/War vs Nin/War.

Sure nin has some ~10% more DW than they used to. We have 13% more DW than at 75 AND can sub whatever we want. Zerk/DA or steps, or med/sekka or whatever sub traits you get are more important than a point or 2 of base damage. We also have a boatload more DA/TA/Multi hit gear and cap haste where only 2handers could before. We have gained a lot of ground in a lot of areas.

Similarly, Dnc got a LOOOOT of DW and general DD power upgrades that turned it from laughable at 75 and actually really nice now.

This is why i say we dont 'need' it to achieve the ranking we had vs other 1handers at 75 because we have gained a lot more than most other 1handers since 75.

1hand vs 2hander is a totally different can of worms, but if you are getting your ass kicked by a nin you should probably reconsider how your playing. Dncs and nins have the same problems we do. No big OMGBBQ redonculous WS. Dnc has a few boosting abilities, thf has sata, nin just has more DW to 'compensate' for that. Compared to each other, Thf, Nin and Dnc are fairly well balanced tbh. But there is still a rift between 1 and 2handers and, like i said, thats a whole other can of worms.

Frankly, the DW being either good or 'limiting potential' is just a half full/half empty thing. Sure if were buffed to hell, hasso/JA haste>DW because no TP reduction for same net effect. On the upside, DW comes in MUCH larger quantities and is always available even when your not at capped haste. I know i dont run around with a pocket 2hr brd double march. Im fortunate because i have a pocket rdm haste :P

Half empty: Capped out/zerg stuff DW is limiting.
Half full: The other 95% of the time DW 33% (or more if dnc or nin) is far stronger than lolHasso 10%.

There is more to consider than the 'ideal situation' mathematically flawless examples when considering the merits of weapons. Thf will never win in a zerg and i dont really think thats even neccessary to be a valued job. We have other issues, but being the best zerger is a change that we wont get and isnt really worth fighting for imo.

I parsed an event a couple weeks ago vs my buddies drg. His damage split was like 75% WS damage. 5% jumps, 20% melee. Mine as thf was around 50/50 melee/WS. He did more WS damage per WS and did more total WS than me. Amazing! But I still beat the bejesus outta him because my melee damage was astronomical. I forget the numbers exactly, but he only did like 30 actual melee hits. I did something rediculosu like 250+. He had so much JA and WS animation spam and I had so much free wailing time with crazy amounts of DA/TA and DW (thf/war) i obliterated every DD in the zone mostly because of melee atks.

I know "1 parse doesnt mean anything/blah blah". I only use it as an anecdote to say: Dont be so quick to focus on the lack of epeen WS and ignore the DPS strengths we DO have. Its the same reason back at 75 people ignored us till they ran a parser and noticed all those toothpick stabs add up more than you think. Our melee damage is lightyears ahead of ANY sam/war/drg/drk in a normal situation that doesnt involve super buffed super zergs.

[Karbuncle]

Thf will never win in a zerg and i dont really think thats even neccessary to be a valued job. We have other issues, but being the best zerger is a change that we wont get and isnt really worth fighting for imo.

Thats not even the Issue >_>

I'm not expecting this to put us at the top of the zerg list, It'd just be a small boost to our damage. I felt like daggers got jipped on the way up, to the point Mandau, the original DPS king, Is now behind i think it is 3 Weapons, I just feel like if THF has just 1 thing, It should be the highest DPS in a weapon.

Not to be a king zerg.

[Laphine]

I would welcome this small boost anyway. And since it isn't big, it doesn't sound as something completely unreasonable (broken).

My real true wish is a change to our main tools, SA/TA, because of course, it would affect our performance the most. And they really deserve to be able to contribute more in this DW/zergy world.

[Aana]

Forest getting lost for the trees. Im saying theres no real need for it. If you take a poll of all thfs about "would you like dagger damage raised" the answer would be "yes". If you asked samurais "would you like meditate to have an extra tick" theyd say yes. What DD doesnt want more damage? The the question is why do we need the buff?

If the reason is "Mandau was the higest DPS weapon at 75 and its not now" Im just pointing out that there is something (accidental or intentional who knows) that makes some sense. Thf and Dnc (dagger jobs) didnt have many of the enhancements that they do today that easily compensates for the swapping DPS of Daggers and katanas (even though exceptionally minor change anyway).

To be blunt, I never liked anything that the justification is "just because i want it". I want to do more damage isnt a good enough reason because EVERYONE has that argument. Wars have that argument and I bet that would make a lot of people suddenly have double standards.

Why does THF need more damage? Is it going to change anything? Give us a warm fuzzy feeling for 10 min after the update and forget that TH is why we cant have nice things? It serves no purpose. What reason besides the universal "I like to hurt things more" is there? 2 points of dagger damage wont fucntionally change a dang thing. We wont get invited more. We wont be somehow more 'useful'. Other peoples perception about the job wont change. What does it accomplish? All i see is we get an imaginary trophy that says "Mandau has the highest DPS of 20 relic weapons!!" which is a tittle that i really dont give a shit about, and im about to HAVE a mandau in probably a week.

If it doesnt change anything, then whats the point?

[Karbuncle]

This might take a moment. So please bare with me. I easily lose my train of thought :D


Why does THF need more damage?

Because they suck at just about everything else thanks to SE not wanting to do anything with the job since TH keeps it 'useful'. Which is actually complete bull in voidwatch because TH is worthless to any group worth a damn.

THF is behind in Damage, But its still a part of its job. THF is a TH, and a DD. The Enmity control BS Barely holds water in a 2-man group, let alone an Alliance situation. SE Doesn't seem to realize just because we have Trick Attack and 2 JA's on a shared timer than grab a small amount of Enmity doesn't mean we're master of the flow of Enmity like they imagine.

So. Why do we need more Damage? its a function of the job. Just like Enmity control and Treasure Hunter. That and more Damage plays a credence to our Enmity control. More damage = Stronger Trick Attacks.


Is it going to change anything?

I'll kill quicker. What else is there to need in FFXI? I kill quicker means i Climb higher in Neo-Nyzul, I get more Currency in Dynamis, More Light-Bonus from Zerging in Voidwatch. More Damage changes a lot, Even if by a small amount, its by no means a trivial enhancement.


Give us a warm fuzzy feeling for 10 min after the update and forget that TH is why we cant have nice things?

Yes and the above.


It serves no purpose.

False. Serves plenty of purpose. Just read above.


What reason besides the universal "I like to hurt things more" is there?

What more reason do i need? Nay, What more reason does any person in this game need?

Why do you Get a relic? To hurt things more
Why do you do Voidwatch? To get gear to hurt things more.
Why do you do Neo-Nyzul? To get gear to hurt things more.

This entire game at its core is to hurt things more. So, You say it like its a bad thing, When in reality, Hurting things more is the only reason we bother to get out of Aurore Gear, The only reason we bother getting the hard stuff. Hurting things more is the core of this game.


2 points of dagger damage wont fucntionally change a dang thing.

4 points for Mandau. But thats besides the point. On a Thokcha, With a DMG of 47, An upgrade to 49 is about 3% more Damage. 4 points to Mandau is about ~6% more (base damage), and it would also put it back on the best DPS weapon.


We wont get invited more.

Who cares? I don't plan on this adjustment suddenly making 18 Man THF Zerg alliances the in thing, i plan on it making me more useful in the events i already go too, and being 1 step in the right direction for the job..

Neo Nyzul, Voidwatch, Dynamis, Abyssea. I've made a million THF suggestion, i have a compilation thread, IF you think I'm only suggesting Damage outputs, Read my other threads, I've made suggestions ranging from Enmity controlling to Pure Damage enhancements to TH buffs. This is just one of the many things that should be done to improve the job.


We wont be somehow more 'useful'.

No? Is a WAR with 90 Ukon more useful than a WAR with 85 ukon? Yes. Because it deals more damage, even by a small margin. More damage = more useful in the situations you're invited too.


Other peoples perception about the job wont change.

Irrelevant and I'm shocked you'd even bother bringing this up. People are stupid. Vehemently stupid. of course the ignorant masses will never change their sheepish opinion. But I and other THFs will take the buff and put it to its use for the events we're already invited too (named above)


What does it accomplish?

The same thing the entire game is driven by. More Damage.


All i see is we get an imaginary trophy that says "Mandau has the highest DPS of 20 relic weapons!!" which is a tittle that i really dont give a shit about

Sounds like a Personal problem. I can't change your point of view any more than i can turn the sky purple. Thats in your corner.

Plus, I've suggested more than this, and this suggestion in itself is a buff to all Daggers, not just Mandau.


If it doesnt change anything, then whats the point?

Think I answered this finely above. Its changes as much as getting that next piece of gear does. The driving point of the MMO, Getting the next thing to make you kill other things faster. Its increasing killspeed.

It changes what at the core is the reason for even playing an MMO. Killing things faster. Leveling up to kill faster, Getting gear to kill faster, Making friends who don't suck to kill faster!

Killing faster is quite frankly the best reason to want something, as its what drives people. That and looking cool in town i suppose. Always fun.

Aaaaannnddd I'm going to sleep - Give me something to do when i wake up ^_~

[Aana]

No i mean a REASON that is not "i wanna stab moar".

For example: 1st dagger damage boost
The game changed virtually overnight from a SC+MB+Hate set on the tank dynamic to a bounce-hate DD burn on mobs that people could hit. Thf went from super capable and needed job because it fit the dynamics flawlessly to the fat kid in dodgeball because thf was to constricted in its original design to fit the new burn world. The dagger update combined with assassin revolutionized thf play and took thf from a spike damage, position oriented hate setter in a SC+MB world to a DoT machine with a positional component. It made another style of play viable when the designed style became obsolete.

Dagger damage+assassin solved a gaping problem on a useless job and made it viable in a world that had made it obsolete.

The update was a clear answer to a clear problem. The only problem you have presented that would actually be solved is "Mandau would be retain its 'best raw DPS' number compared to other relics". Wow. A measurement of a weapon in a vacuum on paper as the 'strongest' weapon when not actually wielded by a character. Thats so useful to me. I can go onto FFXIAH.com and click 'sort by DPS' and mandau will be on top! OH YEAH BABY! Who cares. Thats just a matter of misplaced pride on a digital item, not even on your own character, just an item. Surely you can see why this is not a convincing show of 'need'? How else can I rehash that point? I guess we need to fix it so that the DPS and base damage rankings are identical across the board as they were at 75 because that is important at all? Status quo for the sake of the status quo? Poor, poor reasoning.

As to the rest of your responses, all i got was "SE isnt fixing thf how wed like so damage is all we can hope for". Im not willing to 'settle' for more damage because SE is stupid. Its not the solution to the problem of poor hate mechanics and poorly designed elements that had a cool concept but bad implementation. You are throwing up your hands and saying "well all we can POSSIBLY get now is damage because SE is to stupid to give us anything we want". Screw that. Make thf the concept it was supposed to be. Make tanking and hate control viable and therefore thf a strategic choice instead of just throwing damage at it.

Damage doesnt solve a single one of the problems you listed with thf and statements like "Damage is a part of the job" is just as viable a reason as a warrior saying "damage is part of the job. I want more DA." Same with "Ill kill quicker" or any other item that boils down to "i waann kill stuff faster". Why should a thf get more dagger damage when a warrior can make ALL the same 'arguments'. They should get it too. Why is thf 'deserving' of a damage boost when all your reasons are "i want to kill stuff better" over every single other job in the game? Rdm is farther down the totem pole and arguably more 'deserving' if you are using current DD potential rankings to justify an increase. If you arent using ranking then what are you using to justify it?

Im talking about a simple show of need. Justification. To what question is "more base damage" the answer that is actually thf specific and not every DD specific? Otherwise, just upe everyones base damage so EVERYONE can just kill stuff faster since thats the whole point! Just hand out an item called 'Primeval IV' that constantly drips right into your veins imbuing you with "killing faster POWA" since that fits all the requirements you listed that make an MMO fun and great.

Killing faster via obtaining gear and overcoming challenges and reaping the rewards is one thing. Getting stonger weapons because you asked the Devs nicely is something else.

[Karbuncle]

This might be tougher. But i'll give it a shot! Please read it all. I promise its not filled with anger and snarky attacks on you instead of arguments against and for the Opinions had.


No i mean a REASON that is not "i wanna stab moar".

For example: 1st dagger damage boost
The game changed virtually overnight from a SC+MB+Hate set on the tank dynamic to a bounce-hate DD burn on mobs that people could hit. Thf went from super capable and needed job because it fit the dynamics flawlessly to the fat kid in dodgeball because thf was to constricted in its original design to fit the new burn world. The dagger update combined with assassin revolutionized thf play and took thf from a spike damage, position oriented hate setter in a SC+MB world to a DoT machine with a positional component. It made another style of play viable when the designed style became obsolete.

I see. So The Dagger boost was originally introduced, in your opinion, because the game mechanics shifted and THF became obsolete due to the dynamic play-style shift?

This makes sense.


Dagger damage+assassin solved a gaping problem on a useless job and made it viable in a world that had made it obsolete

I can't quite agree with this. THF Sucked before that, and It just sucked slightly less after those updates... Kinda like what my adjustment would propose.

Assassin gave THF a new ability, to be able to Separate SA and TA effectively. This was a big boost. I concur. But they still weren't invited for anything other than TH. It was a Band-Aid on a Gun-shot.

Just like this would be. But if you put enough bandaids on it, Maybe you'll forget theres a bullet in your lungs? At least long enough to go to the hospital.

No? yah, I think we're dead already.



The update was a clear answer to a clear problem. The only problem you have presented that would actually be solved is "Mandau would be retain its 'best raw DPS' number compared to other relics".

Is it really such a bloody deal to want to regain something that was lost? I guess not, But at the same time. I Get where you're coming from. I can imagine my face if i saw a WAR thread asking for a Gaxe Damage boost.


Wow. A measurement of a weapon in a vacuum on paper as the 'strongest' weapon when not actually wielded by a character.

I can't imagine what you're trying to convey here. unless you're an idiot (you as in general public no "you're" as in specifically you), You realize DPS is only the foundation to a weapon potential.

but of course.


Thats just a matter of misplaced pride on a digital item not even on your own character, just an item.

I'm confused. Whats bad about having pride in something? Wrong. I'm very prideful in my character. I love my THF. I've grown attached to i over the years.


Surely you can see why this is not a convincing show of 'need'?

You've made your point clear. i get it. Surely you can see that I get your point, I just disagree with it some of it. Just like you disagree with my reason or needing or wanting this.


I guess we need to fix it so that the DPS and base damage rankings are identical across the board as they were at 75 because that is important at all? Status quo for the sake of the status quo? Poor, poor reasoning.

Oh wow, You must be a politician to get from "I would like Daggers to receive a small boost to improve their overall effectiveness and DPS, here let me cite an example." to "KEEP ALL THE WEAPONS THE SAME DPS RATIO OR ELSE".

Joking aside. Don't do that. Its beneath you. You can come up with something better than that based in reality.


As to the rest of your responses, all i got was "SE isnt fixing thf how wed like so damage is all we can hope for".

I've made countless others to boost THF in every aspect. Enmity Control, Damage output, Party Support/Debuffing point of view.

You seem to be narrowing your responses specifically to try and paint a picture of me that is completely inaccurate. I implore you to explore the venue. DD Is just one aspect of THF i would like to see receive a buff.


Im not willing to 'settle' for more damage because SE is stupid. Its not the solution to the problem of poor hate mechanics and poorly designed elements that had a cool concept but bad implementation. You are throwing up your hands and saying "well all we can POSSIBLY get now is damage because SE is to stupid to give us anything we want".

Also Wrong. Very very wrong. I won't lie, I know SE is incompetent, but I offer a lot of suggestions. Each one simple step in the right direction. Read; This is just 1 Suggestion in an ocean of suggestions that would make THF More competitive in endgame content

Its a Suggestion for a step in the right direction. You can't always have Improvements that go from "eh" to "WTF OMG THATS AWESOME" like say, Last resort. Sometimes Little buffs dished out over time can improve a job far more than one big FIREWORKS update.


Screw that. Make thf the concept it was supposed to be. Make tanking and hate control viable and therefore thf a strategic choice instead of just throwing damage at it.

This we can agree on. If only you knew...


Damage doesnt solve a single one of the problems you listed with thf and statements like "Damage is a part of the job" is just as viable a reason as a warrior saying "damage is part of the job. I want more DA." Same with "Ill kill quicker" or any other item that boils down to "i waann kill stuff faster". Why should a thf get more dagger damage when a warrior can make ALL the same 'arguments'. They should get it too. Why is thf 'deserving' of a damage boost when all your reasons are "i want to kill stuff better" over every single other job in the game? Rdm is farther down the totem pole and arguably more 'deserving' if you are using current DD potential rankings to justify an increase. If you arent using ranking then what are you using to justify it?

Not even going to break this one apart, Just going to tell you to read what i wrote above. Its 1 small Step for THF in the right direction. Of course becoming another Cookie-Cutter DD is not the solution, If you read my other threads, You'd know this too. But sometimes support isn't enough. Enmity control is nothing more than a faint vision of use in todays FFXI with their inability to raise the Enmity cap or rework enmity, its all kinda meh.

The type of improvement that would be required to really grasp fundamentals of Enmity would be an astronomical taking. But, Do a little searching, You may find a suggestion i made some time ago about Improvements to Enmity Control. To sum it up.

Split Timers of col/Acomp. Reduce Coll to 30s, Accomp to 2m
Add a JA that allows us to "Dump" 25% of our Enmity - 30min timer
Add a JA That allows us to Dump 50% of our Enmity - 2minmin
Add a JA That allows us to "Give" 25% of our Enmity - 30min
A JA that allows us to Give 50% of our Enmity - 2min

The "Dump" and "Give" Can share timers with their matching counter-part. This This would give THF the Ability to control the Enmity of battle a little more. Something SE wants.

Could also have a "Stored Enmity" - Enmity gained through "Collaborator" and "Accomplice" gives a kinda "Sublimation" effect of Stored Enmity. This Enmity could do something to the THF to buff it in some way as well, TO assist in their tanking. Maybe Dumping Enmity on someone could be enhanced through merits where, When Dumping your Enmity on someone, they gain like, +10 Enmity for 30 seconds or something, and Collaborator/accomp gives -10enmi or -20enmi for ~30 seconds to that person.


Im talking about a simple show of need. Justification. To what question is "more base damage" the answer that is actually thf specific and not every DD specific? Otherwise, just upe everyones base damage so EVERYONE can just kill stuff faster since thats the whole point! Just hand out an item called 'Primeval IV' that constantly drips right

Cutting it off here. You're taking it to the extreme. the Slippery Slope argument is the most flimsy "Cop out" Argument there is. No, Just because person does XXX doesn't mean suddenly the World is going to be over-run with Rape-Zombies marrying Pigs and Everyone getting Primeval Brew Dispensers.


Killing faster via obtaining gear and overcoming challenges and reaping the rewards is one thing. Getting stonger weapons because you asked the Devs nicely is something else.

I think this is the first truly reasonable thing I've seen you type that didn't have some subtle hint of "Hey! FK YOU BUDDY" in it. Then again. We're both guilty of that, no?

I admit. I skimmed. Also, You can Blame Zero Punctuation Game Reviews for keeping me awake long enough to respond to this.

Good show chap. This is getting more fun as it goes on. I do enjoy a good debate.

[Laphine]

The way i see it, we are already fighting over our cookie cut. TH was the only thing that gave us that cut without even the need to fight. Now, with the trait devalued, SE threw us among the rest of the DDs. And when we talk DD we talk damage, and the lack of damage is what excludes us from events. Surely, the lack of procs do not help at all. And what can we expect when we lack procs, damage and TH? THF is broken for the current FFXI. We need to have something. Hate control (that other thing we have...) wasn't needed ever since the burn style pts came to be.

So yeah, i'm completely in favor for a damage increase for THF. Increasing damage on daggers is quite cool, but it really is a small boost, and i would rather fight over something worth fighting for. Something groundbreaking like reducing SA/TA recast to 30 secs. The recast on SA/TA is the bottleneck to our performance on any haste value (that's what we get with DW3 and capped equip haste). With a lower recast, this bottleneck would still exist, but instead it would move to higher haste values. This essentially means that we would still not beat the heavy hitters on 80% haste, but at least, we would be competitive on lower values.

[Aana]

Most updates (not all) generally solve a problem or address an issue.

Back in ye olde days the entire world revolved around SATA. WS>SATAWS on tank SC>Tank has hate throws on Estaff+vit+prays>Blm MB. Mob dies. Repeat. This was the method in EXP. This was the method for HNM kills. It was the entirety of the playstyle for all DDs. Everyone come /thf and SATA the 2 opposing sides tanks. TP gain was slow. Melee damage was terrible and unimportant. The only goal was to land a big fat SATAWS every few MINUTES on a tank that was turtled up to hell and MB off it. Thf fit very nicely into that world. From VB distortions to SB lights from lv 30-75 and endgame, Thfs 1 min full SATA design was the standard. Thf was highly saught after in EXP parties. In endgame, other DDs could rival it for damage using the same SATA method (Sam/Thf), but we were still there for TH and fit into the dynamics anyway.

Then the burns came. Now you had to WS more than once a fight. Hate setting in large chunks via SATA actually became a liability to the even hate bounce all DD/nin design. Mobs spun like tops making a full SATA nigh impossible anyway. The focus became fight lower mobs DDs could hit and kill. HNMs focused on buffing DDs. In both cases melee damage became the main driver instead of skillchains. Thf with its horrendous daggers (yall remember when sirocco/hornet needle was considered 'viable'!?) could not participate in this. The mechanics and weapons literally prevented it from being a useful party member no matter how well you geared.

In comes assassin and dagger damage boost. Overnight we went from a full SATAWS once a fight SC Spike damage DD to a job whos damage primarily came from melee damage. We no longer needed the extreme positional requirements to full SATA because we could split them making us able to function in a tankless scenario and our multi hit WS became strong enough to stand alone (DE). Those changes completely turned thf on its head from an obsolete job that worked in a SC+MB world, but couldnt tie its own shoelaces in a burn world into a competent member of a party.

A second round of only minor dagger damage update wont have anything near this effect. Thats what i keep pushing. Previously there was a glaring and obvious problem (Thf's design no longer functioned in the game and needed a new direction)

With the loss of turtle tanking and the advent of DDtanking (atonement), SATAWS became an impractical hate tool for the 'hate control job'. And thus came Assassin combined with the accomplice. 5min timer was found insufficient for hate dynamics that change much faster than that, thus collaborator. Problem: Hate tools not capable of manipulating hate. Fix: Assassin+Accomplice. Accomplice found to be slow to provide active hate management: Collaborator.

Most changes are a response to a problem or issue and (hopefully) fix that problem/issue.

You can quote me from ages ago, the only DD related buffs for thf I have explicitly ever asked for was 2 things:

*DW 3 native: Reason-It would cut the umbilical cord for /nin as both the best offensive and defensive sub with the premise (opinion) that options and variety are an improvement. Now i have a choice between tradeoffs like /war vs /nin or /whatever. That single adjustment opens many doors.

*Easing of SATA positional requirements: Everything spins these days and SA in particular is a frustrating game element. Assassin fixed TA. When I often intentionally just DONT use the the jobs defining JA because its to much of a pain in the ass, I figure that is an issue that needs looking at. Seems that bully was SEs attempt at that. If that was 'good enough' or not is debatable, but it's certainly a good direction and a clear response to the issue of SA on spinning monsters.

And on down the line.

Your enmity ideas are an attempt to solve a problem. The (now heavily flawed) enmity system and in general I can easily get behind. Clear needs deserve clear solutions (or at least attempts at solutions). I still fail to see how minor bumps to DD solve any tangible issues. A small buff is going to be unnoticed and have virtually no impact on anything besides killing faster for the sake of killing from a handout. It doesnt achieve anything. A large DD buff changes our role into a top DD class (which i personally dont think is the 'direction' thf needs to go). The reasons for a DD buff (imo) are to:

*Bring up a sorely underpowered job class (see Thf post SC+MB days using sirocco+hornet needles in a TP burn world). We arent in this situation anymore. (though 'relative' DD power is always debatable because its relative. We certainly arent as bad off as we were then.)
*Redifine a jobs role. If you gave smns A+staff, a crapload of good melee gear and a personal super DD buff like zerk+DA when ifirit is out or soem other HUUUUGE DD buffs it would forceably be trying to change Smn to focus on a melee oriented role. Does thf need to be redefined into a heavier melee class? I dont think so, but matter of opinion and not quite the position your advocating anyway.

The dagger boost is similar to me as giving rdm 5 more damage on enspells. So what? It doesnt solve Rdms melee problems. It doesnt change their role. It doesnt give them more utility. (although it just occured to me it could subtly boost their party support via /sch and acession on a party but anyway). I fail to see a direct link between a (small) dagger boost and any of the issues that plague thf today. Its a dessert update when were starving for meat and potatoes.

[Karbuncle]

Think of it this way.

Treasure Hunter is given a bonus to where, The level of Treasure Hunter on an Enemy determines A buff on the THF.

TH1~3 - Acc+3% Attack+3% Critical hit Rate +2%
TH4~6 - Acc+5% Attack+5% Critical hit Rate +4%
TH7~9 - Acc+7% Attack+7% Critical hit Rate +6%
TH10~12 - Acc+9% Attack+9% Critical Hit Rate +8%
TH13+ - Acc+10% Attack+10% Critical Hit Rate +10%

This would be a big boost to THF DD on harder enemies. It gives TH a use in places its not normally useful, BCNMs, Voidwatch.

Now imagine we got the Enmity control updates I've mentioned in other Thread. Perhaps we also get Steal and Mug to deal damage modified by DEX and AGI respectively and based on the weapons base damage.

No we have all these updates fundamentally pushing THF in the right direction. A update to Dagger base damage would simply be a means to further increase THFs aspect of DD.

I'll repeat it again, I completely see your reasonings and logic. THF is in a bad place right now, With Voidwatch nearly completely obsoleting THF due to no THF Specific Procs, and TH Being useless, Wouldn't Now be a better time than ever to try and give the job a little Boost? IDC where we get the boost as long as its useful.

SE Keeps giving THF little pieces of half-useful half-meh junk (bully being the most recent, Its great for a once-per-3-min WS, But otherwise rather useless). Just once I would like them to look over THF updates. Look at the suggestion threads i create here as more of a Wishlist. A Wishlist that would put to use suggestions that hopefully eventually see the light of the day.

I don't expect a small boost to dagger to suddenly update the job to an unbelievable level, I spelled that out in every post, I expect it to be one step in a staircase of adjustments that help the situation of Thief. Thats all. If Daggers don't have DPS Going for them, What do they have? I guess you could say I'm mostly a little pissed at weapons like Oneiros Knife, that has a Base damage of fucking 30 for a level 85+ Dagger. SE is just getting stupid with it overall with the D: Ratings on daggers.

I always view DD as one part of the job. The game being almost entirely about Voidwatch and Killspeed(Neo-Nyzul), THF has gotten far behind in this department. Some groups in Nyzul don't even bring a THF and now, with the "Kill boss 25x, Get 1 piece of armor update, and Reach FLoor 100 and get a floor 100 Armor, Thf just became a MAJOR liability. Who's going to bring a THF To neo-Nyzul now that Reaching Floor 100 Guarantees a piece of floor 100 armor? They'll just pile on the DD And shoot for floor 100.

Some groups who shoot for floor 80 May still bring a THF, Or they may have someone come /THF. a WAR/THF or a SAM/THF is still a better DD Than a THF/WAR.

TH, THFs only true exclusive use in todays FFXI, is becoming functionally useless as a whole, In almost the same way SATAWS + SC Burns were becoming obsolete when our first boost came around. The fundamental part of the job is slowly being eaten away in endgame content because of updates making TH Less appealing. So if something isn't dont quick, THF will be completely dead in the water.

Being able to perform parlor tricks like Taking someones Enmity isn't going to get us invited to VW or N-Nyzul because in those Events Enmity isn't a problem, Ever. Fanatics and temp items as far as the eye can see. Enmity control is completely useless in FFXI Today, sad but true, Not one uses "Real" Tanks anymore and Enmity Reset happens on almost every other action with most mobs. If THF is to survive, It needs to do something useful, Or it needs to be a stronger DD.

I made a suggestion a while back about Bombs/Traps, a JA System similar to Quickshot, With charges and all, That Damages and Debuffs an Enemy based on a Type of Trap/Bomb Expended. This would add a support quality to THF.

- Also an Addendum to the above Coll/Acomp Adjustments. The Ability to Dump Enmity on someone could also be potentially useful for Enmity Reset situations. Perhaps Dumping the Enmity on Someone could give that someone a "Immunity to Enmity Reset" For 15s or so.

THF needs more uses outside TH, because TH is becoming completely worthless in most endgave events. SE needs to step up their game and take their head out of the sand on this one. What they really should do is like the above, Give THF some major boosts to DD, or Make that boost an AOE BUFF TO THE PARTY so THF has a reason to bother building TH on things TH Has no use on.

Give TH a use other than mysteriously working in the background. Give us a JT, "Treasure Hound", That increases the Party in a way equivalent to the level of TH on the mob. Like the Adjustment i suggested above, Except in AoE form.

Or hell, an Adjustment to TH THat each Level of TH on the mob debuffs it.

TH1~3 - Def-10% Mdef-10%
TH4~6 DEF/mdef-15%,
TH7~9 DEF/mDEF-20%
TH10+ DEF/mDEF-25%

A permanent Debuff effect. ON level with Angon later on, On level with Dia early on, With the bonus of MDEF down as well. This would significantly help the other DD and the THF.

So, Giving THF itself a DD boost won't completely fix it, But giving us ways to Support our Fellow DD That realies on Treasure Hunter falls in line with the job, And gives THF an over-all Effectiveness Boost.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's some OP shite. Especially to a job that will NEVER not be required.

[Karbuncle]

That's some OP shite. Especially to a job that will NEVER not be required.

What do you mean required? Did we timewarp at some point? THF isn't required for anything in FFXI right now. /THF offers pretty much the same level of TH effectiveness thanks to TH4+ Being very low increases, and TH is the only thing the job had going for it.

Plus, It really was quite literally numbers I pulled out of my Ass, Not expected values.

[Arcon]

That's some OP shite. Especially to a job that will NEVER not be required.

In addition to what Karby said, THF also has no role whatsoever in any event involving chest rewards, which is the majority of current content. The only exceptions to that are Dynamis, which isn't a group event anymore and hence THF is not required, and new Nyzul Isle.

Also, there is a slight but relevant difference between "THF required" and "TH required" and I'm not talking about the missing letter.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

What do you mean required? Did we timewarp at some point? THF isn't required for anything in FFXI right now. /THF offers pretty much the same level of TH effectiveness thanks to TH4+ Being very low increases, and TH is the only thing the job had going for it.

Plus, It really was quite literally numbers I pulled out of my Ass, Not expected values.

VW is ending and it's going back to drop rates so TH will be needed, whether only a small increase or not it's still an increase. That said TH4+ needs to receive a bigger increase especially 9+ but not in the form of increased damage.

[Aana]

And as expected, we agree on 99% of thf stuff. All of the points about enmity being broken, TH being very hit or miss (ie you need it and its super valuable, or its 100% useless) etc are entirely true. The other 'aspects' of thf are broke. I doubt you will find many thf that feel their contributions in non-DD ways are very robust at the moment regarding large personnel events (VW etc).

Im not saying thf has no problems. It does. And there need to be some very strong adjustments made to core game systems like enmity if they want thf to focus on that system, otherwise they should scrap the idea of enmity management and take thf somewhere else. Thats a whole other conversation.

I have complaints about thf. Damage isnt one of them. I pull my weight with the big boys and when i Thf/War they better be on their A-game or get trounced by lolThf and should feel ashamed. I do not see thfs current damage standing as anything to be embarassed about or needs 'fixing'. How much damage is enough? Everyones opinion is different, but i say we have 'enough'. Once the saveTP nerf hits, I will be quite content on my ability to put out damage with the rest of the DDs. DW3 was frankly all the upgrade to Potential Damage i ever wanted. An enhancement like "SA works from any side" wouldnt increase actual damage potential, so there is still room to expand on the bully concept because it makes SA less frustrating without making any BARANCE issues on damage or whatnot. But as far as raw power increases, DW3 was it for me combined with a toning down of 2handers WS frequency which was frankly getting really out of hand with 40-60-80 TP returns I can get on drg and rng.

Thf has problems and, on most of you other ideas, i think you got something. I just dont feel that damage is the answer to those issues anymore than a sword boost would fix rdm functions or a sword boost would make pld tanking more viable. Similarly I dont see how more damage fixes a job with 'hate control' in a game that doesnt need it or TH when most of the events now it has, literally, no effect. Im fine with thfs current damage level. I am not fine with other poor mechanics of the job so I cant get behind a damage buff I dont think we need when we have bigger fish to fry.

[Karbuncle]

VW is ending

Theres still 1-2 more Voidwatch updates coming. and just because they stop adding to it doesn't mean suddenly the gear from it is going to stop being useful. Legion is going to be something that brings some light to TH. How much is up for grabs.


and it's going back to drop rates so TH will be needed

Mmmm, The only 2 Endgame events right now are Voidwatch, and Neo-Nyzul. Voidwatch TH is useless, Neo-Nyzul, With the upcoming update, is going to make THF a giant liability. Why bring a THF and risk slow kill speed and only hitting floor 80, When you can replace it with a real DD or BRD/COR and shoot for Floor 100 and have 100% Chance at a floor 100 Piece with our without THF?

Even for groups who shoot for Floor 80, It'd be more useful to have your Support job come /THF Than it would be to bring an actual THF.


whether only a small increase or not it's still an increase.

An increase the majority of players realize is not worth wasting a space for THF that could have been a Stronger DD, or a BRD/THF or some support job. Which is the right realization.


That said TH4+ needs to receive a bigger increase especially 9+ but not in the form of increased damage.

I'd agree, But it'd be like agreeing that our Sun needs to stop rising. SE will never adjust TH to be more useful than some mysterious effect they won't explain to us. Though i wouldn't object it, and in fact would welcome it. but that wouldn't solve the problem that THF is useless for any event where TH isn't useful, Which is most of the current endgame scene.

MOAR TH isn't the solution to fix THF, It'd just be more of the same, and never really fix the core problem of the job. It would be a nice step in the staircase i mentioned earlier though.

[Karbuncle]

I have complaints about thf. Damage isnt one of them. I pull my weight with the big boys and when i Thf/War they better be on their A-game or get trounced by lolThf and should feel ashamed

I out DD pretty much every pick-up DD i do voidwatch with, Generally Parsing 1st or 2nd even when I'm not in the BRD/COR party because I can play the job, and most people are idiots.

But when i combat a real WAR, i get stomped lol. Still, With Save TP being nerfed I'm sure they'll go from 30% to 25% and i might get bumped up 4% in the mean while...

IDK, I just always felt like THF should be a combination of a few things that make it great, including DD. If THF has nothing else for it as a DD, It should have Spike Damage. We don't even have that, a good WAR can spike 2x Higher with an Ukko's than a Good THF could with any WS they have, with SA and TA.

THF WS could use a serious Boost at the very least. Or SA and TA need to be adjusted to have a strong effect on WS. Maybe a JT level 95+, Or even Merited That gives a 15% Boost to Attack and WS Damage when stacked with the next SA or TA. Seems like a lot, But Its not. Spike Damage once per minute isn't as amazing as it used to be. Most DD can pump our Insane numbers without relying on a 1min timer.

Theres so much that could be done to THF, It'd take forever to talk about it. Theres a lot we need to fix about the job, Hopefully SE Addresses the fact TH is becoming more obsolete as time passes.

[Aana]

Id like to pretend that as TH usefulness is lessened, the reason why we didnt get subtle blow "Thf already has TH so we decided not to give thf SB in combination with DW" also wanes. Im tired of the "Thf has TH so you cant have nice things" BARANCE SE has gone for lately. I kinda wish TH gets even more useless if it means it will stop being a roadblock to enhancing the job in active (as opposed to a passive TH) ways.

But this is SE, so ill get my head out of the clouds :P

Ill need to start parsing thf more often, but so far, i havent really been trounced badly on thf even by 'real' players, but ive been mostly on drg lately living up my flashy mythic :P Ill give thf a go a little more often against the guys I compare my super drg against and see if I just have a rosy memory or if im actually doin as well as i think i am.

I gotta say though, culverin last stand builds on Thf/War are REALLY impressive. Ive beaten more than a couple 'good' DDs in VW using that. It fixes our weak WS issue when you can plast off a culverin/cannon shell powered last stand without the need for SATA whenever you want from any angle, or even from range :P But thats a niche (albeit expensive) build I made because it sounded fun, and boy is it xD

[Karbuncle]

I usually parse top 3 In Voidwatch Pick up groups, Even against Ukon Wars, Made me pretty happy. but then i parsed myself against a real DD on Ig-Alima. 2 WAR From my LS, They both parsed around 28%, I parsed about 8%, Sure, i came in 3rd, But still. The power difference was noticeable.

Then again they were in the DD party (COR/BRD buffs), and i wasn't... and Ig-alima is particularly annoying, but still!

Just shows what a real good Fully buffed WAR can do against an unbuffed THF :p

[Jomen]

I do see the merit for the want to increase damage on dagger based weapons. For a job that is about swinging (mostly) as their main source of damage, a buff to dps would be the acceptable route. Higher base dmg, higher critical damage, higher wses (to manage hate) =win.

I don't play thf btw, but this thread is probably the most intelligently thought out one I've seen so far. Very good arguments for the merits for this increase. And great ideas when it comes to new enmity tools as well as how to make TH useful for events that don't have drop rates affected by them.

I would really love to know exactly how TH works though. Maybe a dev will release some info soon.

[Fupafighter]

We don't need it lol. We do enough with all the delay down and double/triple attack we get.

[Fupafighter]

Id like to pretend that as TH usefulness is lessened, the reason why we didnt get subtle blow "Thf already has TH so we decided not to give thf SB in combination with DW" also wanes. Im tired of the "Thf has TH so you cant have nice things" BARANCE SE has gone for lately. I kinda wish TH gets even more useless if it means it will stop being a roadblock to enhancing the job in active (as opposed to a passive TH) ways.

But this is SE, so ill get my head out of the clouds :P

Ill need to start parsing thf more often, but so far, i havent really been trounced badly on thf even by 'real' players, but ive been mostly on drg lately living up my flashy mythic :P Ill give thf a go a little more often against the guys I compare my super drg against and see if I just have a rosy memory or if im actually doin as well as i think i am.

I gotta say though, culverin last stand builds on Thf/War are REALLY impressive. Ive beaten more than a couple 'good' DDs in VW using that. It fixes our weak WS issue when you can plast off a culverin/cannon shell powered last stand without the need for SATA whenever you want from any angle, or even from range :P But thats a niche (albeit expensive) build I made because it sounded fun, and boy is it xD
Thf does need some damage boosts or something lol. DNC just poops all over thf damage and I have proven that through killspeed in a month of dynamis lol. If they could get a little bit more triple attack or something >.<

[Laphine]

thf is already the job that multi hits the most. Adding more triple attack won't really help unless it's something meaningful, and given our history we will never have something like that. A recent example i can think of is triple attack damage. A very interesting stat for us, but still, SE keeps giving us stuff with silly values (3%, 2%).

[Fupafighter]

Dancer? My attack speed on dancer makes thf look just silly. Thf i think needs just weaponskill damage bonus or something to encourage using stacked ws.

[Tashan]

I like this idea, but don't think it's the best idea. I think there could be more creative ways for Dagger users to produce additional damage.

[Urteil]

Why not, give the thieves and dancers the ability to make me bleed.

UP WITH DAGGERS.

[Sfchakan]

I also don't have any issues with THF dmg and I still have plenty of gear yet to acquire. You just might be doing it wrong?

Also never have an issue getting to come on THF, despite having multiple other jobs at 99 from mages to 2h dd to tanks.

[Arcon]

I also don't have any issues with THF dmg and I still have plenty of gear yet to acquire. You just might be doing it wrong?

That wasn't really the point of this thread. And define "not having an issue". Are you saying your THF is on par with your WAR?

[Sfchakan]

All I'm reading is "make my job on par with DDing with every other job, yet get TH, hate tools, superior evasion, and moar! GIMME MOAR!"

Come on guys, get real. Playing THF is the best it's been for years.

[Arcon]

All I'm reading is [..]

I see, so the mistake is on your end. Learn to read, then come back to comment.

[Septimus]

More damage on daggers would help, but I think that a greater adjustment to one-handed weapons and dual wield needs to be looked into to become more competitive with two-handed weapons. I am not saying that dual-wield should be more powerful than two-handed weapons like the olden days, but they could be more balanced equalized in strength so that dual-wielding is close to on-par with two-handed weapons.

[Karbuncle]

Oh, I can see your problem. You're an idiot. Lets review, shall we?


All I'm reading is "make my job on par with DDing with every other job

Nowhere, In any post in this thread, have those words been uttered or even hinted at by anyone but you. In fact, In many posts, Its distinctly spelled out that that is not what is wanted.


yet get TH

Pointless. But for arguments Sake. About 14 Jobs can get TH3, BST has TH3 now (Soon to be TH1~2), and TH7+, Which is obtainable by THF, is such an indistinguishably low difference between TH3, what you can obtain from subjob + item, Is completely meaningless as a valid argument for the job.

While TH7 does have a difference over TH3, Its value is so low its almost unnoticeable, to the point, Its just not special anymore. it would be like if WAR got Berserk with 25.0003% Attack Boost, and DRK only had 25%, then DRK Get Accuracy+15% Added to last resort, and you say "God WAR, You guys get .00003% More attack, Shut up"

Yes, Thats my hypothetical difference in drop rate from TH7, and TH4, 0.0003%.


hate tools

............. What? If you're talking about Coll/Acomp and Trick Attack, euthanize yourself. When has anyone needed those ever in any endgame event ever created since 75 cap? Hate cap is so easily reached its a laughable band-aid placed on the spot your arm used to be.

They'e meaningless abilities, TA is nothing more than an additional Hate tool, I'll Trick attack anyone infront of me in Voidwatch because they're probably already capped on hate anyway, and Coll/Accomp don't do enough to be benefit anyone with their timer restrictions.


superior evasion

PUP Has about 30 less base Evasion than THF, and they have a Pocket WHM on them at all times, NIN has less Evasion by a good margin, But get 5/4 Shadows, and can sub DNC to heal, DNC has less evasion by a small amount, but gets a Strong -PDT JA, Sambas, and Waltzes to keep themselves alive, as well as the ability to sub NIN for further protection.

Pure Evasion is not all its cooped up to be, especially when solo. THF has to chose between more shadows, or Healing itself. PUP, DNC, and NIN all have more survivability than a THF.


and moar! GIMME MOAR!"

I bet you scream the same thing to starving children, "oh, You already had 3 peas little johny, You're such a greedy c*nt". I admit, thats a bit stretching it, I just wanted to call Johny a little C*nt.

but THF is a starved job, none of what you described even remotely makes THF useful for anything. their Tanking abilities at best are useful if you can't find any other job to tank.


More damage on daggers would help, but I think that a greater adjustment to one-handed weapons and dual wield needs to be looked into to become more competitive with two-handed weapons. I am not saying that dual-wield should be more powerful than two-handed weapons like the olden days, but they could be more balanced equalized in strength so that dual-wielding is close to on-par with two-handed weapons.

I agree :)

[saevel]

Are you accounting for fSTR and delays with this changes?

Something ~everyone~ always seems to forget is that fSTR vastly favors lower DMG / Delay weapons over the higher DMG / Delay weapons.

EX.
Mandau D55 Delay 174 ATK +40 DPS:18.96 fSTR (Rank 6) cap: 14, STR required to cap: 56 over VIT
DMG at cap: 69, new DPS: 23.79, gain from fSTR: 25.45% (69/55)

Excalibur D73 Delay 233 ATK +40 DPS: 18.79 fSTR (Rank 8) cap: 16, STR required to cap: 64 over VIT
DMG at cap: 89, new DPS: 22.9, gain from fSTR: 21.91% (89/73)

Apocalypse D167 Delay 513 ACC +40 DPS: 19.53 fSTR (Rank 18) cap: 26, STR required to cap: 104 over VIT
DMG at cap: 193 new DPS: 22.57, gain from fSTR: 15.5% (192/167)

Now unless your inside abyssea getting more then 50~60 STR over the target's VIT is ridiculously hard in TP gear, if your WS is highly STR based then it's more likely during WS. If you were to just stick with an fSTR value of 12~14 (48~56 over VIT) then the Mandau crush's everything else in melee DPS. Of course other things come into play like Excal's bonus damage and such. The only times a lower DMG weapon hurts is if you have a WS with a small WSC mod (Evis). With Exten being 100% AGI and those jobs that wield daggers (THF/DNC) having access to ridiculous amounts of AGI, the low base DMG of your weapon is are important during WS.

This also means that STR in TP gear is more important for THF / NIN / DNC's then it is for WAR / DRK / SAM.

[Sfchakan]

You kids are cute.

Thing is, for most non-VW stuff, I can duo my THF with my WHM alt just fine. The mob dies quicker than a DNC soloing it, my droprates are better, and she never dies due to hate.

In lowman stuff, I more than hold my own against SAMs, WARs, etc. I improve droprates, open/close skillchains often, proc in dyna often, can tank, can pull, etc. Sure, I may be an idiot, but you suck at playing THF if you think the job is really so poor in potential right now.


I guess the official THF forums are full of morons. Back to elsewhere! *WHOOOSH*

[Laphine]

If you are happy with the way you play thf, good for you.

I'm certainly not happy.

VW is the current endgame, and it completely excludes thf. Out of idk, 70 runs, i was only able to use thf 4 times. My love for the job was what kept me going throughout all these years of FF, and i can't even play it right now. Guess what? i quit the game (again). I was not having fun, why stay? I would even bear not getting drops on VW, and i can count the stuff i did get with 1 hand, but not being able to play thf was simply too much.

[Karbuncle]

You're making me sound mean ):< not cool.


Thing is, for most non-VW stuff, I can duo my THF with my WHM alt just fine.

So can i and every other THF Worth their damn. Does that mean THF is fine? no, a f**king RDM and WHM Could duo just fine. Anything + a WHM Can "duo just fine".


The mob dies quicker than a DNC soloing it

A Duo killing faster than someone solo? Youdontsay.jpg. Plus, this is plain wrong unless you're rocking a Mandau and comparing yourself to a full pink DNC. Equally geared and buffed point for point DNC has better DPS than THF Due to having a higher Dual Wield Trait and Haste Samba, Only thing that would mix it up is if the THF Had Mandau, which DNC Can't wear, But Thwast comes close.


my droprates are better

better than what? No Thf? Of course. Better than a /thf? yah. no one denies that, ever. Its just the difference is so negligible only people so deep in denial act like it does anything worth mentioning.


and she never dies due to hate.

Again, Anyone with a fourth of a brain can Duo WHM + ???. This doesn't make THF Good.


In lowman stuff, I more than hold my own against SAMs, WARs, etc.

Then they suck, Plain and simple. This is just facts, SAMs and WARs are far superior in damage than a THF. THF Isn't left so far in the dust they can't make out the WAR's shoes, But they aren't catching up anytime.


I improve droprates

So does a /THF.


open/close skillchains often

Who can't? This is called a weaponskill function, not a job function. How is this relevant?


proc in dyna often

So can every other job.


can tank

So can any DD-hybrid Job. Most of them much better.


can pull

So can everyone.


Sure, I may be an idiot, but you suck at playing THF if you think the job is really so poor in potential right now.

I'm a better Thief than you can ever hope to be. A good Thief isn't about comparing yourself to mediocre DD and acting like you're top dog. Its about recognizing all flaws and strengths of the job, and knowing where you fall short, and where improvement is due.

You're a bad THF because you're too blinded by what i can only assume is the sh*t you're so full of to see Thief may be 'Acceptable' at the same tasks most jobs in the game can perform, but they themselves have nothing truly unique enough to keep them useful.

Thief is a dying job, and Its relevance is fading out. SE needs to stop trying to "fix" TH and give Thief more uses than being a one trick pony. TH is nice, But focus on other aspects of the job would be nice too.


I guess the official THF forums are full of morons. Back to elsewhere! *WHOOOSH*

And you open by saying "you kids are cute"? You're acting like a 13 year old, Or one of those 20-something people who think they're "All grown up" because they can buy alcohol now.

No, No I think you're being defensive right now. You're attempting to hide your embarrassment by using humor, or acting like its not effecting you. Basic defense and cop-out mechanism, Especially when one knows they have no footing to stand on.

I see it all the time, Someone goes in somewhere, spouts something stupid, gets called out, then they run away calling everyone else dumb. Shouldn't be ashamed of the fact you're simply reacting how any upset person would.

[SpankWustler]

Thing is, for most non-VW stuff, I can duo my THF with my WHM alt just fine. The mob dies quicker than a DNC soloing it, my droprates are better, and she never dies due to hate.

Of course a Thief is going to kill faster than a Dancer when there's someone in white pants around to cast Dia II and Haste. You know what would kill even faster and get statistically comparable drops? A Dancer/Warrior able to full-time Saber Dance and Haste Samba and never use Waltzes because of a White Mage/Thief's presence.

Your comparison of solo to duo conditions is like comparing one orange to two oranges and noting that the two oranges have more orange-ness.

[Fupafighter]

Saying that a job meant to be in a party situation should be on par with dnc and nin or heavy DD jobs is just silly. That's like saying brd should be able to do the same. Thf is reliant on part situations to do well over and over...not just spike damage once every 3 minutes. And if you look at thf in a party situation, like duo dynamis or abyssea, they are superior when they can abuse trick attack and sneak attack. The job doesn't need anything really. Maybe add a little bit of triple attack or something? Even though thf gets 19% in a decent tp set >.>

[Tinuviel]

SE already tried to close the gap with passive traits. You'll notice a lot of single-handed weapon users get some sort of +crit trait, fencer, etc, nowadays. In addition, single-handed weapon users can get additional DPS by dual-wielding. As far as a DMG bonus on daggers, SE did that 5-6 years ago already.

I don't think this needs to be done at all.

[Kitkat]

SE already tried to close the gap with passive traits. You'll notice a lot of single-handed weapon users get some sort of +crit trait, fencer, etc, nowadays. In addition, single-handed weapon users can get additional DPS by dual-wielding. As far as a DMG bonus on daggers, SE did that 5-6 years ago already.

I don't think this needs to be done at all.

Just to correct you, Fencer only works when a person uses 1 weapon IE: Main hand...not when using Dual Wield. Of which war gets the highest tier of, bst 2nd highest tier, brd 3rd highest and anyone else only tier I when subbing /war. If you don't believe me then feel free to log on, get on your war and read the passive description for yourself.

Also, the +crit trait is a Crit Att Bonus. Yes thf gets highest, dnc 2nd highest, and war/drk with 3rd, but this depends on the jobs ability to reach the ideal cRatio to make sure their crit rate allows for them to crit often enough to make use for it in DoT while maintaining good pdif and acc rating also...something a 2hander can do better than 1hander. I believe the only reason why thf ended up with the highest iteration of the trait was so that SE wouldn't have to rework Sneak Attack/Trick Attack damage calculations to keep up with the increase of level cap or to avoid adding SAII/TAII with higher dex/agi conversion rates than SA/TA. Which still isn't that big of a gain on any of the endgame content to make anyone say "Hey, you know what we need that we don't have? A thf...can someone switch to thf?" Only time I ever go on thf to any vwnm is Pil to pull hate off tank for terror/doom move.....or cause someone has this superstition that TH actually affects what pops in their chest. Isn't cause I have a relic or my dmg output...obviously isn't for procs I bring to the table (oooh dagger WS procs that the dnc can do + bring ja procs over me and cure better than if I was /dnc).

[Karbuncle]

Saying that a job meant to be in a party situation should be on par with dnc and nin or heavy DD jobs is just silly.

This imaginary person running around screaming at everyone for THF to be the best at everything ever is getting annoying, I need to shut this person up! >_>


That's like saying brd should be able to do the same.

No not really. BRD is clearly defined as a support role, It has some weapon prowess, but so does WHM, BLM, RDM, and SMN. THF is a Hybrid(TH/Enmity) DD.

THF has Traits and abilities that define it as a DD, SA, TA, Assassin, Triple Attack. While BRD has abilities designed to buff others.

Its an okay comparison, but its not as "Grey area" as you may it sound is all.


Thf is reliant on part situations to do well over and over...not just spike damage once every 3 minutes.

Yah, THF is a heavy party job, I'm actually okay with this to be honest. I wish i could use SA more, But Its not a big deal.


And if you look at thf in a party situation, like duo dynamis or abyssea, they are superior when they can abuse trick attack and sneak attack.

No they aren't unless you're comparing them to gimp DDs, No offense. They don't even come close. SA and TA at best make their WS's as Strong or almost as Strong as a Ukko or Shoha. sure, my SA Mercy can beat most Shoha/Ukko's in terms of consistancy, But Ukkos and shoha will peak higher because they have far more damage potential.

And don't rely on a JA To be active.



The job doesn't need anything really.

I firmly disagree, the only reason THF Can be called a job at this point is TH, Which as it goes higher, it gets less of a boost. If a NIN had TH3, or DNC had TH3, you think people would low-man with THF? Hell no.


Maybe add a little bit of triple attack or something? Even though thf gets 19% in a decent tp set >.>

More Triple attack would be nice... We got Triple Attack II but it was only +1%.... Like seriously. My general TP Set up puts me around 20% Triple Attack, Ring/Head/Feet/Merits/base.

I still think adding a buff to TH would be nice. Doesn't need to be anything insanse, But give us a Buff with increasing potency based on TH Level, Power up THF for doing a good part of its job (TH Whoring!)

[Babekeke]

To anyone who claims they 'hold their own vs a 2H DD.

In hate-capped situations, as a THF you'll be under the mis-interpretation that you're holding your own agains 2-handers because the mob turns to face you more often. The reason is simple though... you hit it more often^^

When you go up against a vere MNK, you'll understand that you suck. Especially when they /war and take less damage than you. It's sad, so sad, but my averagely geared (haste capped and no gear swaps) MNK would out DD my very well geared (and inv full of gear swapping equip) THF.

It's because my THF offers TH >.>

[Laphine]

No they aren't unless you're comparing them to gimp DDs, No offense. They don't even come close. SA and TA at best make their WS's as Strong or almost as Strong as a Ukko or Shoha. sure, my SA Mercy can beat most Shoha/Ukko's in terms of consistancy, But Ukkos and shoha will peak higher because they have far more damage potential.

And don't rely on a JA To be active.

This isn't my experience at all. I'm used to tie with good heavy DDs on low haste situations. If it's a lazy heavy dd i beat them so bad it's not even fun. I guess i could be biased tho. This experience comes mostly from new dyna at level 90 (only played for 1.5month at level 99 cap). There were certain aspects to being a mithra thf back then (mainly capping crits very easily - i don't think any other job could achieve it) that were overshadowed with new level caps.

Anyway, Idk if you remember, but Motenten and i posted some spreadsheet numbers on thf vs war a while back, and it really did show our competitiveness in this scenario.

SA/TA recast is a small bottleneck with haste spell only. We get tp in about 20 secs but we can only use a stacked WS every <30 secs. There is hardly time to put an evis/exen inbetween. It could make sense, but if it's an event like dyna, mobs die fast and SA/TA recast ticks between the pulls. Still, at super haste we get tp under 10 secs and we can actually use 2 ws between the stacked ones. This imo is where the problem is at. It really breaks our average ws damage and our damage as a whole.

[Karbuncle]

This isn't my experience at all. I'm used to tie with good heavy DDs on low haste situations.

Not to sound rude, But if thats the case, Those DD's are slacking or aren't as good as they/you think they are. This shouldn't ever really be the case. They may simply not have known they were being parsed and didn't bother trying :P


Anyway, Idk if you remember, but Motenten and i posted some spreadsheet numbers on thf vs war a while back, and it really did show our competitiveness in this scenario.

I remember it, but not the specifics :X

[Laphine]

Well, i won't say that's not what happened. Altough a bit too cloudy now and i can't really remember much (names/jobs/numbers), that whole server rep thing is usually my baseline. Someone that is known for being a good player will usually bring his game. Thing is, i don't remember ever being crushed on thf, and you are implying that's the only thing waiting for us no matter what.

[Fupafighter]

K well most people don't bring their sam or warrior into dynamis lol. As far as "normal" dynamis setups, thf can push really good damage when they can abuse SA/TA. God if my samurai were more balanced in situations to handle decent challenge, I would say yeah, samurai > thf, but most people don't bring a whm to cure the 2 handers in Dynamis.

[Karbuncle]

Thing is, i don't remember ever being crushed on thf, and you are implying that's the only thing waiting for us no matter what.

nay, Nuh-uh, Nope, Nyet, and the ever popular, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo*splat*!

If you look back, I've said on multiple occasions, a THF Can crush a gimp ass DD, or even an Ukko WAR if that WAR doesn't take simple precaution like.. Trying, or using Gear swaps. My point is, if its a DD who actually knows what they're doing and plays well? Yah, THF is fudged.

You may be getting the impression that I'm saying "WERE BONED EVERYWHUR", but that's Likely because I don't bother bringing up meaningless facts like "I outparsed a full Perle WAR", or "I out-DD'd that one monk using Afflictors" or anything equally flimsy, not that you do, Just in general. In truth, I only compare myself to DD who posses some level of intelligence and gear standards.

its easy to feel like you're rocking hard when you look around and "Average" is one step above 'DURrrrrrrrrr', But when you crawl out of the cesspool of mediocrity into real players, You look around and realize your contributions are rather small. This is a general statement, not specifically in direction to you Laphine.

So I may come off as meaning we're SOL no matter what, But in reality, We're only SoL if we're up against a real DD of equal gear and intelligence. In reality, THF isn't a completely terrible DD in itself, and before i stray to far and someone else yet again runs their ignorant mouth(not specifically you) about "THF DOESNT ONRY DD", I'd like to once more mention, DD isn't the only area I'd like Thief to be improved on, nor is it the only one I've made suggestions in regards too, The job has some Aspects where it could really shine if its worked on a bit.

Its got a lot of things it does at an acceptable level,

DD
Tank
Enmity
TH

If SE expanded on those aspects of the job and really focused on what would make Thief interesting, or useful, Could have a good job on our hands. THF just needs some focus. Right now, They probably look at job updates and go, "Well, THF has TH, So lets pass on them this time around..." like they've been doing for years. Every 3 years or so they go "We've held off, Lets give them something tiny to shut them up".

Early on: Assassin
Then: Dagger Damage boost
Now: Bully

Noticeably, every meaningful boost THF has gotten, thats been regarding as a joyful event, Has been a boost that helped THF DD. Odd. I mean, TH upgrading everyone was like "YAY", then we realized TH4+ Is pretty much Going from 25% Drop rate with TH4, to 26% with TH12.


K well most people don't bring their sam or warrior into dynamis lol. As far as "normal" dynamis setups, thf can push really good damage when they can abuse SA/TA. God if my samurai were more balanced in situations to handle decent challenge, I would say yeah, samurai > thf, but most people don't bring a whm to cure the 2 handers in Dynamis.

Bad Fupa.

Bringing a WAR or not bringing a WAR to dynamis doesn't matter. Some people may no go WAR because THF has TH, But theres still groups out there who go WAR/DNC and WHM/THF. People generally bring what they feel more comfortable on, Going THF over XXX job in Dynamis isn't a matter of "THF is better" its a matter of "Its all i have".

People who have WAR or MNK and a WHM Mule, Will probably go MNK or WAR and bring the WHM /THF, Or just gear up BST >_>

[Fupafighter]

I do agree that thf is lacking in damage output SOLO or in VOIDWATCH. But you throw that thf (mandau or twashtar) with a job to tank in abyssea, dynamis, basically every other event, and they will tear shit up and cause good drops, with no curing really required. Every job has it's place, thf's place is dynamis and abyssea atm sadly. Good hopes for legion for you thfs though, as there will be no procing and Th will probably make a difference :)

[Karbuncle]

I do agree that thf is lacking in damage output SOLO or in VOIDWATCH. But you throw that thf (mandau or twashtar) with a job to tank in abyssea, dynamis, basically every other event, and they will tear shit up and cause good drops, with no curing really required. Every job has it's place, thf's place is dynamis and abyssea atm sadly. Good hopes for legion for you thfs though, as there will be no procing and Th will probably make a difference :)

Meh, THF Isn't a terrible DD, not the point I'm trying to make, Hell, This thread wasn't even about making THF an Excellent DD, it (as i explained to someone a few pages back), Is simply a little boost in an ocean of Boost i think would help THF.

Truthfully, I'd be more happy with this Idea:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13211-The-THF-Master-Suggestion-Thread-Compilation.-Read-Contribute!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13246-Thief-Suggestion-Thread-58371-Traps-and-Bombs.

Than anything really DD Related

[Fupafighter]

K I do dynamis daily lol, I see a warrior every once and awhile, but 95% of the time, it's bst whm brd nin thf dnc pup. Maybe your comfortable with going on those jobs, but for the most part, people go what they enjoy. I know I made my twashtar for the reason of doing dynamis in a fun way. And me and my friend pull in good numbers DNC and THF. We are both well geared... I can guarentee you if i went samurai and thf or something stupid like that, I would spend 50% of my time curing my ass. Oh and NOT EVERYONE HAS A MULE WHM to sit there and cure them. I have a dual box, but I don't use it in dynamis because it's just pointless and unneeded.

[Karbuncle]

Maybe your comfortable with going on those jobs, but for the most part, people go what they enjoy.

This is exactly my point. People don't go THF, BST, etc because its better than WAR, They do that for simple reason, They go with what they're comfortable with.

WAR/DNC is better than THF/DNC if you got a WHM Friend or Mule. WHM Friend/mule can sub THF, Dia II every mob for TH.

Its not a matter of THF > WAR in Dynamis, Its a matter of comfortability. You only see people on XX job likely because its the easiest or best geared one they have. I personally go THF to Dynamis cause i have mandau, If i had an Ukkonvasara? I'd be hitting it up on WAR, and having my WHM switch to /THF, Or i'd be losing coin.

BST is the best "Solo" Option for Dynamis. THF/DNC Is good, But better as a Duo. Same for DNC, DNC/WAR with a WHM/THF would be > THF/DNC with a WHM. Same goes for a WAR/DNC+WHM/THF Duo > THF + WHM.

Of course there always some situations where X job is better than X job. At 75 Cap, RDM was better at Soloing things like Ungur, But that doesn't mean RDM Was the best solo job, It just was better at some situations. So is THF, as i said Earlier, THF has its strong points, and its low points, But having a few select uses (I.E, Level 75 content: Read: Dynamis) Does not a good job make. It makes it an Acceptable alternative.

You can't compare a "DNC + THF" Duo to a "SAM + THF" Duo, Because its a Dynamic shift in the party, going from a full Support/DD job like DNC, to a Pure DD job like SAM. You may as well say "My THF with a BRD and COR Support out-DD'd a SAM/PUP", Its an unfair comparison.

Plus, You'd guys probably double your coin output if you both geared up BST well and went as that. You're clinging to an eyeballed comparison between yourself and nameless people you /sea in Dynamis in the only event that even remotely favors THF.

THF Can perform well, Its an okay job, Its just not great, at anything, it excels at nothing, Its the RDM of DDs. It needs help in a lot of Areas, Being able to kill Easy Prey mobs in Dynamis doesn't make the job good.

[Laphine]

If you look back, I've said on multiple occasions, a THF Can crush a gimp ass DD, or even an Ukko WAR if that WAR doesn't take simple precaution like.. Trying, or using Gear swaps. My point is, if its a DD who actually knows what they're doing and plays well? Yah, THF is fudged.

Well my point is that what make thf get fudged is haste. The best of the best THF is very competitive with the best of the best war or w/e in a low haste scenario.

[Motenten]

And if you look at thf in a party situation, like duo dynamis or abyssea, they are superior when they can abuse trick attack and sneak attack.
No they aren't unless you're comparing them to gimp DDs, No offense. They don't even come close. SA and TA at best make their WS's as Strong or almost as Strong as a Ukko or Shoha. sure, my SA Mercy can beat most Shoha/Ukko's in terms of consistancy, But Ukkos and shoha will peak higher because they have far more damage potential.

Difficult to compare, but here's a few parses I have.

1) Dynamis Bubu. I'm on thf/dnc, other DD is nin/dnc. I have str and agi Thokchas. He has 85 Kannagi.

Me: 59.51%
Him: 40.44%

So I did 50% more damage than he did.

Note: this is not to compare me directly to him, but to have a baseline to compare to my mnk in the next parse.

2) Another Dynamis Bubu, though different mobs. I'm on mnk/dnc (90 Vere), nin is the same nin/dnc, and we also have a thf/dnc (not thf main, primarily just TH).

Me: 46.32 %
Nin: 30.20 %
Thf: 23.22 %

In this case I do 53% more damage than he did. Caveat: I was working on augmented relic pants in this one, so my damage is a bit weaker here than it would normally be.

Now yes, parses have problems with objective value. I'm sure there were plenty of factors that could skew the results in amongst all that. However I consider my mnk -very- good (as in, most DDs in voidwatch don't even get within 10% of me, even discounting proc assignments). If my thf is doing even moderately comparable damage when compared against the same person, and while only using normal magian daggers (agi offhand dagger, at that), I'm inclined to think that there's not a lot lacking in thf's damage potential.

If you want to point at the other thf in the second parse, note that he was using Auric/Thief Knife as his weapons, does not have Exenterator, and has no intention on improving on that. He explicitly says that he only uses thf as a "TH whore".


3) Dynamis Valkurm. Me on thf (same setup), and a very aggressive sam with 90 Masa, Shoha and very good gear, and a whm/dnc that was meleeing a bit for fun. This sam is one of the few that can actually beat my mnk on some (not all) Voidwatch mobs.

Sam: 51.12 %
Me: 46.11 %
Whm: 2.76 %

In this case, I can also note that I was the one keeping Haste Samba up all the time, so that cut into my weaponskill damage. And of course weaponskill damage will favor the 1 and 2-hit weaponskills of sam over the 5+ hit weaponskills of thf, due to overkill.


So I would say that the assertion that thf "[doesn't] even come close" to other DDs in situations like that is false. There are certainly plenty of gimp thfs, but that doesn't mean the job itself is weak.


I'd also note that a 2 point increase in weapon base damage results in roughly a 2% increase in overall damage for a thf, not the 4%+ you might naively be expecting.

[Karbuncle]

At some point in this Post you may feel I'm mentally choking you and watching you gasp as i laugh at you. but I'm not. I can't word things well, and sometimes it sounds like frustration when its really just me spewing my thoughts. So don't take anything personally.


I'd also note that a 2 point increase in weapon base damage results in roughly a 2% increase in overall damage for a thf, not the 4%+ you might naively be expecting.

I meant in Terms of Base Damage on the weapon, no in terms to the raw DPS output of THF. I rewrote that sentence a dozen times trying to get that out right but i guess the point was still missed to some.

Moving on. You know as well as anyone how Parses are skewed, You said so yourself. Over-kill Damage, Human Errors, etc. I don't understand how this conversation keeps going to me debunking the idea that I think THF is a terrible DD and sucks in all forms, to me slowly making 1 person understand, only to have someone else 3 posts later say the same shit i just got done explaining to someone else, but i'll try again, Only because I like you.

I have a funny way of showing it though. Its okay.

I think THF is a waning job. Its got its strong points, Every job has its use in something, But THF isn't really that strong. THF can perform adequately and TH is a bonus some people consider when they don't realize how much of a bonus it actually is past 4. But i ask you is that job security? Thief can perform well In Dynamis, and is popular as such, because everything in Dynamis Is so far below you in Level your Evasion is great and your Attack is easier to cap on them, helping THF pull ahead.

In Endgame events of consequence, Like Voidwatch and Soon-to-be Legion, Thief has a little more trouble keeping up when everyone can perform to their peak. Especially buffed up. Thief can perform in an adequate manner when both parties are hideously underbuffed, But once the enemies go above level 85, and gain some real DEF on THF, it gets a bit tougher.

Beyond that, A few parses of a THF not out-dding a 90Emp SAM isn't really shocking to me. I have mountains of Parses where me on THF has Out DD everything from a 95Ukon WAR, to a Bravura WAR, and further, ranging from me in the buff party, or me in the Proc party, But that didn't really mean much because Human Error, Voidwatch killing people, So much, etc.

The thing is, In Voidwatch, If you're invited on THF, its because 1) Your party leader is like 'Sure whatever', or your friends with the person. THF has no unique procs, and while it can DD Well, Replacing it with another DD is more favorable. Even a DNC, DNC provides more procs.

Now, before it gets too far gone, I'd like to repeat some words I've said in the past really quick:


SAMs and WARs are far superior in damage than a THF. THF Isn't left so far in the dust they can't make out the WAR's shoes, But they aren't catching up anytime.

THF Can perform well, Its an okay job, Its just not great, at anything, it excels at nothing, Its the RDM of DDs

Meh, THF Isn't a terrible DD, not the point I'm trying to make, Hell, This thread wasn't even about making THF an Excellent DD,

The job has some Aspects where it could really shine if its worked on a bit.

Its got a lot of things it does at an acceptable level,

DD
Tank
Enmity
TH

If SE expanded on those aspects of the job and really focused on what would make Thief interesting

THF is behind in Damage, But its still a part of its job. THF is a TH, and a DD.

In case the reasoning for these quotes is lost. its emphasis on the fact i feel THF Is no slouch as a DD, Its not so far gone its not even in the race, Its no slouch in a lot of Departments, It can hold its own, But its also a far gap between a Really good DD, and that the job has no really "strong" points, it has no real unique abilities that will make it useful.

Even dynamis as an Example, BST would be far better than THF in every way, Survivability and Damage output.

THF can tank, But so can WAR, NIN, DNC, MNK, and most of those jobs can kill faster, and have more survivability. Solo or Duo.

THF can DD, but so can (A lot), And THF is probably Near the bottom end of the DD Spectrum (not to say its bad, Just not up there).

THF can provide TH4+, But other jobs can Provide Up to TH3, BST, and /THF with a Sash, and TH4+ Really isn't that impressive in terms of improvement in drop rates. Its an Effect, But not a great one. Still an Effect so we must give it that.

THF has a lot of things it can do "Well", But it has nothing it truly Exceeds at. Thats the jobs problem, Its like RDM in the way its "good" at a lot of things, but "Great" at nothing.

You're keeping up with that SAM, But Theres a lot of factors we don't know, Did he Hold WS's when it looks like the mob was low on HP, or did you, Who melee'd the most, Did you turn around to proc, both of your Gear sets, so on, so forth. I wish this kind of thing suddenly meant THF would be invited to End-game, Or that THF Was suddenly fine, and I can log on, See a shout, and ask to go THF, and they don't have to sit there, think about it, and ask me if i have any other jobs.

On the topic of Voidwatch, Even when i Say the words "I can go, I have PUP, BST, THF, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF has Mandau" to a VW shout who's 10/18 and could look for any job, Know what answer i get 9/10? "Smn". Because Despite having a Relic, my SMN is more useful than my THF in Voidwatch. The only time i get to go THF is when its something like "Looking for DD" and the leader is just like "Sure whatever".

The job, While at its core has the ability to perform well I ask you, Does that make the job okay?

It Has no unique quality keeping it useful these days. THF is never a wanted job, TH is a Wanted Trait, and in most cases, a Trait that you can ascertain elsewhere, BST for instance, and /THF with a Certain Sash. TH4+ is a part of the job, But it needs to be re-evaluated outside of giving some undisclosed boost to drop rate.

THF only has TH, and with the mist on TH clearing, You realize the job is being replaced. Even in Dynamis, BST takes control. Its likely because BST is easy to get into if you're gimp, but at the same time, It just goes to show, THF Can be replaced, easily, When TH is spread. The Job is nothing except that trait, and even that trait just simply does not keep the job relevant.

I feel like i'm talking in circles, Maybe this one made it a lot clearer though. I tried to pour out every thought, THF is "Okay" In a lot of ways, but it excels at nothing, and is at great risk of becoming almost entirely obsolete.

[Laphine]

lol that's some wot. Really man, i agree with most of your points. I just don't agree on this one thing, because we in fact shine in low haste scenario. And that's the only thing i was trying to show. Maybe i should have worked on some spreadsheet numbers again, but i was too lazy for that (still am). The problem is that we can't extend this performance to super buffed situations. Well, the real problem is actually that the game is all about super buffed situations now. And this is why we are excluded, our dd concept only worked in 2002.

[Karbuncle]

lol that's some wot. Really man, i agree with most of your points. I just don't agree on this one thing, because we in fact shine in low haste scenario. And that's the only thing i was trying to show. Maybe i should have worked on some spreadsheet numbers again, but i was too lazy for that (still am). The problem is that we can't extend this performance to super buffed situations. Well, the real problem is actually that the game is all about super buffed situations now. And this is why we are excluded, our dd concept only worked in 2002.

Yah, As i said, We do have situations where we shine a bit more, But theres not a lot of "low buff' Situations theres days, And Dynamis most DD sub /DNC for proc, Which kinda skews it as well. THF Can Sub WAR outside, and Other jobs can Sub /SAM, or /WAR, which kinda favors other jobs a bit more.

The situations of unbuffed DD are kinda going away, most events have the COR/BRD Parties again (maybe outside Neo-Nyzul).

[Motenten]

I meant in Terms of Base Damage on the weapon, no in terms to the raw DPS output of THF. I rewrote that sentence a dozen times trying to get that out right but i guess the point was still missed to some.

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. +2 to base damage on weapon. However you keep going on about DPS ratings (eg: Mandau no longer being top DPS), which implies your understanding of the amount of damage you're asking for is likewise based on that. +2 damage on a ~d50 weapon is +4% DPS, and that's not how much damage is actually going to increase.


Moving on. You know as well as anyone how Parses are skewed, You said so yourself. Over-kill Damage, Human Errors, etc.

Of course I do. You can't judge the difference between two pieces of gear that way. However you -can- make a fairly decent assessment of the overall scale of performance of a person. An approximation, not an exact value.


I don't understand how this conversation keeps going to me debunking the idea that I think THF is a terrible DD and sucks in all forms

Perhaps because that's what you keep saying? That the only way a thf is beating another DD is if the other DD is gimp?


Thief can perform well In Dynamis, and is popular as such, because everything in Dynamis Is so far below you in Level your Evasion is great and your Attack is easier to cap on them, helping THF pull ahead.


But once the enemies go above level 85, and gain some real DEF on THF, it gets a bit tougher.

DC mobs in Dynamis are level 96-97, which were the targets in my parse samples.


Beyond that, A few parses of a THF not out-dding a 90Emp SAM isn't really shocking to me.

It wasn't meant to be shocking. It was meant to dispute a specific point you made, that thf doesn't even come close to a real (non-gimp) DD. After accounting for the TP spent on Haste Samba, the damage split between the two of us was 49/51. Yes, the sam still won. Big deal. It's a counterargument specifically to show that your statement is false.


The thing is, In Voidwatch, If you're invited on THF, its because 1) Your party leader is like 'Sure whatever', or your friends with the person. THF has no unique procs, and while it can DD Well, Replacing it with another DD is more favorable. Even a DNC, DNC provides more procs.

Which has exactly *nothing* to do with thf's damage capabilities. It is solely down to how Voidwatch functions.


In case the reasoning for these quotes is lost like they were when i first said them. its Emphasis on the fact i feel THF Is no slouch as a DD

Except that you also keep making statements contrary to those points.


You're keeping up with that SAM, But Theres a lot of factors we don't know, Did he Hold WS's when it looks like the mob was low on HP, or did you, Who melee'd the most, Did you turn around to proc, both of your Gear sets, so on, so forth.

To add some clarity to that parse:


Thf Exenterator avg: 2294 (almost always stacked with SA/TA)
Sam Shoha avg: 2298
Sam Fudo avg: 2389

#Exenterators: 101
#Shoha+Fudo: 165

Avg hits per weaponskill for sam: 5.40 (5-hit with some loss from using steps)
Avg hits per weaponskill for thf: 31.17 (higher loss due to keeping up Haste Samba)

Total weaponskill damage:
Thf: 233370
Sam: 383270

Total melee damage:
Thf: 329437
Sam: 245379

Sam clearly won by miles on the weaponskill side, but I mostly compensated for that on the melee side.

As far as I recall, there was no turning to proc unless the mob was at like 5% and a JA timer was about to come up. No more than a few seconds was wasted in those situations, and they were rare.

Can't provide gear sets, unfortunately.


Even when i Say the words "I can go, I have PUP, BST, THF, DRG, WAR, MNK, THF has Mandau" to a VW shout who's 10/18 and could look for any job, Know what answer i get 9/10? "Smn". Because Despite having a Relic, my SMN is more useful than my THF in Voidwatch.

That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.


The job, While at its core has the ability to perform well I ask you, Has no unique quality keeping it useful these days. THF is never a wanted job, TH is a Wanted Trait, and in most cases, a Trait that you can ascertain elsewhere, BST for instance, and /THF with a Certain Sash.

TH4+ is a part of the job, But it needs to be re-evaluated outside of giving some undisclosed boost to drop rate.

All well and good, and valid points, but once again have -nothing- to do with the supposed purpose of this thread.

[Karbuncle]

That's exactly what I'm pointing out. +2 to base damage on weapon. However you keep going on about DPS ratings (eg: Mandau no longer being top DPS), which implies your understanding of the amount of damage you're asking for is likewise based on that. +2 damage on a ~d50 weapon is +4% DPS, and that's not how much damage is actually going to increase.

I meant in terms of the actual base damage of the weapon. Like, If Mandau Was D:50, and it got upgraded to D:55, It would be +10% To base Damage, Not your damage output, Specifically speaking on the number of the actual Displayed value on the Dagger.

Yes I'm aware its a weird thing to say.


Of course I do. You can't judge the difference between two pieces of gear that way. However you -can- make a fairly decent assessment of the overall scale of performance of a person. An approximation, not an exact value.

Depends on the Parse. You can't parse yourself against someone who's only known value is "90 Masa" and show a THF who's only known values are "2x Thokcha" and expect the parse to be taken at face value. You don't post your Gearsets, his Gearsets, nothing.

Parses are great, But can be vastly skewed in one way or the other by simple human error, They only give good Estimations in controlled environments, Dynamis is not such a place. In my opinion anyway.


Perhaps because that's what you keep saying? That the only way a thf is beating another DD is if the other DD is gimp?

Half wrong. but, I'm confused by this statement, Are you trying to tell me that THF is fully capable of beating another real DD, like an Ukon WAR, When they're both equally geared and skilled?

*Explained In my post below*


It wasn't meant to be shocking.

Yes, I guess my choice of words is wrong. Maybe I should have said "I'm not surprised about these results, Its kinda what i Anticipate would happen". At the same time, I go on to try and convey, "I need more information to take these at value". Some people think Empyrean+1 Armor is somehow good, This SAM could be in Empyrean+1 armor, Barely capping haste, and Using a half-arsed WS Set.

not saying he is, Just dont really have strong information on this guy. If i provided you a parse that Showed me doing 54% Damage, and someone i call "ukonWAR" doing 46%, Would that mean THF > WAR, or would you ask for Gear Sets, etc. You have to put yourself in my shoes. Taking things for face value is rarely a good move, only thing I'm attempting to do is ascertain the situations you are coming to these results in.


It was meant to dispute a specific point you made, that thf doesn't even come close to a real (non-gimp) DD. After accounting for the TP spent on Haste Samba, the damage split between the two of us was 49/51. Yes, the sam still won. Big deal. It's a counterargument specifically to show that your statement is false.

You proved to me what i already knew. a Good THF Can come close to another Good DD in events where neither party is actually buffed beyond Haste (maybe? Did your WHM Keep haste up at all times?)

You provided one parse as proof, I could parse a Melee RDM out-DDing an Ukon WAR, But everyone would look at me like an idiot if i walked into the RDM forums and said "See, I proved you guys Wrong, RDM can DD". I'd be laughed off the forums.


Which has exactly *nothing* to do with thf's damage capabilities. It is solely down to how Voidwatch functions.

Actually, I beg to differ, If THF was a good DD, It could grab a DD spot. It barely fits that role, If what you said was true, It would Imply THF was in Demand other places, Just not voidwatch because of how it functions, When in reality, Thats not true as well. THF is really not wanted or needed everywhere. It starts like PLD, in the way, people always bring it to new events, or as a "Well, I guess we have one more spot..." Safety-net type deal, and slowly, People stop using it again once they realize they can get away with someone coming /THF, Or bring a BLU and setting TH, or bringing a BST, all who offer more than THF has to offer, in terms of Damage, and support.


Except that you also keep making statements contrary to those points.

*Explained in post below*

THF is for all intents and purposes the RDM of Melee jobs. We excel at nothing. We have no unique qualities or aspects. Its a job that poorly does what other jobs can already do, and this sets the bar on its uses.

In the grand scheme of things, THF is a useless job. Its one bread and butter is TH, and even that, Is optional at best when there are other options out there for Obtaining TH, and most of them come with a net gain in some field.

being an "Adequate" DD means nothing in FFXI, Being "Second place" means nothing. The job has nothing remarkable or useful about it. No matter how you math or parse it, THF will never come out on Top. So in that regards, It needs help.

Not exactly in a DD manner, But as I've repeated more times than i can even pretend to care to count, My focus is not always on the DD manner of THF, Sure, It needs to keep up, But at the same time, Giving it more unique qualities is what It deep down needs.


To add some clarity to that parse:

Thank you for the clarity. And at least attempting to provide gear sets even though you couldn't, I appreciate the thought.


That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

I agree, Its likely cause no one wants to go SMN, but its also cause THF is a liability, Its not as good as DD as a WAR, so its not going to get a DD slot, it has no Unique Procs, and it has nothing else going for it, Sadly.


All well and good, and valid points, but once again have -nothing- to do with the supposed purpose of this thread.

Read pages 3-7. I've already explained what the meaning of this thread was, and it certainly was never, ever, Making THF the best DD, or that somehow this proposed adjustment is somewhere in my "top 3 wishlist". It was a passing thought.

At this point, Nothing I'm arguing with you about pertains to the OP in my mind, Thats old news to me, i've grown past the idea of wanting this particular part of the update thanks to someone on page 3.

[Karbuncle]

To Clarify the best i can. In terms of me on the subject of "THF is a useless DD" and "THF can deal good Damage", Its not contradicting. Lets put it this Way.

THF is a Car that can go 80 MPH,
WAR can go 100MPH
SAM can go 90MPH

In this comparison, THF is still a fast car(read; Good DD on its own), But if your Goal is getting from A to B as quick as possible, You don't chose a THF mobile, You chose the WARmobile(Read: THF is useless when placed next to WAR). in the same way, Thats how THF DD looks, and what i'm trying to Convey, Its not contradicting, You just have to know how to look at it.

I don't want THF to go 100MPH, I want THF to go 80MPH, But make friendly Cars around it Gain 10MPG to their Fuel consumption, and maybe enemy cars go 5MPH slower. Keeping it a Fast Car, But making other Cars perform better so its useful to have it a long in more ways than just being "A fast car, But not as fast...".

Otherwise, You'd just replace the 80MPH Car with the 100MPH Car and gain 20MPH.

Right now, THF Goes 80MPH and Sprinkles magic dust behind it(TH), no one knows exactly what all the magic dust does, We just know it looks pretty and someone tells us its like rubbing Cheetah Blood on the car.

I think this explanation works.

[Fupafighter]

Well I do think thf can do alot, given proper situations lol. The main one I'm saying is a dnc and thf combo :D makes my day when the monster dies and noone needs curing in 10 seconds. Not saying it beats war or sam, just saying, alot of times doing too much damage too fast results in less gil and more curing. If legion doesn't have a procing system like i hear, I think thf will be considered useful again though, which is great. SE needs to realize Th and hate control was thfs main intent, and capping enmity on any DD job is way too easy and the main events don't require TH atm.

[Motenten]

Oh? They feel weaker. Odd. Do Beastmen have lower Defense than normal mobs? (outside of PLDs)

Not especially (though it may vary slightly between, say, yags and orcs). The 'weakness' is probably almost entirely to do with not having to fight against level correction.


If i provided you a parse that Showed me doing 54% Damage, and someone i call "ukonWAR" doing 46%, Would that mean THF > WAR, or would you ask for Gear Sets, etc. You have to put yourself in my shoes. Taking things for face value is rarely a good move, only thing I'm attempting to do is ascertain the situations you are coming to these results in.

Perfectly understandable.


This SAM could be in Empyrean+1 armor, Barely capping haste, and Using a half-arsed WS Set.

I know she has Zelus Tiara, all +2 gear, Hachiman legs (it was one of her big upgrades back at 75; not sure if there's anything better for sam now), Grim Cuirass +1, and am pretty sure hits the 25% haste/5-hit ideal on Masa right now. There's not much she doesn't have best-in-slot for.


Did your WHM Keep haste up at all times?

Most of the time. Total time hasted was about the same for each of us.


And as posted above, I wont completely repeat, I know nothing about you or the Sam outside of your WS choice. you SA gear, your TA Gear, Your definition of 'Good', nothing.

Point. But it would be far easier to point you at my xml files (Motenten on pastebin) than to give gear lists for me, at least, as they're rather complex. Have had a few bits of equipment upgraded since that parse, though.


Theorycrafting with the spreadsheet to look at higher buff situations.

Thf and Mnk vs a fake Qilin (lvl 106, 640 def; not realistic def, but guessing for a tough mob for Legion). Both are in buff party getting double Marches and Chaos Roll. Dia II on mob. Both thf and mnk are /war using RCBs, both have Berserk up; mnk gets Impetus. Middling-to-good gear for both, no Empyrean weapons, just AH/magians/merit weaponskills.

Mnk: 290 (260 without Impetus)
Thf: 247

Dropping mob def to 540 (more realistic)

Mnk: 351 (318 without Impetus)
Thf: 284

In this case, yes, I can somewhat agree with you regarding the spread of damage potential.

On the very high def mob, they weren't too far apart, aside from Impetus (meaning the gap could largely be closed with a similar JA buff). As the def drops to more reasonable levels the value of crits declines, allowing the mnk to pull further ahead. Overall split in the first case would be 46% thf, 54% mnk; in the latter case it would be about 45% thf, 55% mnk.

That's enough of a gap to be noticeable. On the other hand, your (granted no longer advocated) proposal would shift the thf's percentage in the latter case from 44.72% to... 45.24%.


So, while there's certainly a gap that needs to be addressed, a base damage increase is really nowhere close to a solution.

Upper limit of improvement from any JA idea: 15%. Very unlikely due to 'balance' issues.

A buff in the 5%-10% range would not seem unreasonable. 5% as a conservative estimate. Base damage increase needed to provide that would be bumping a fire Thokcha from d47 to d51, an 8.5% increase in base damage.


However a base damage increase seems too simplistic a solution; personally, I'd prefer something that buffed damage in conjunction with thf's other utility roles.

Random idea: A JA that uses another player's current hate as a source of damage. Take the hate they've built up and literally use it as a weapon (while also dropping that person's hate). An extension of the Accomplice/Collaborator JAs. If too problematic, add additional damage based on the amount of hate stolen (a sort of bastardized version of drk's Scarlet Delirium).

[Karbuncle]

I edit like mad so Its always good to allow 10-20 Minutes before quoting me. That said, You should check out these:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13211-The-THF-Master-Suggestion-Thread-Compilation.-Read-Contribute!
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/13246-Thief-Suggestion-Thread-58371-Traps-and-Bombs.

Theres a lot more suggestion floating around, I think THF needs a lot of buffs, More toward helping them stand out and less toward DD, Their DD could use a boost, but nothing substantial if they get other boosts.

[Arcon]

I'm getting headaches of confusion reading this thread.

Here's two statements, both of which are completely true:
1. Thief is a decent DD
2. Thief is a horrible DD

The problem is how you judge its DD-ness. Can a THF get shit done? Most certainly. Does it compare to real DDs? Not one bit. Motenten your math skills in all honors but show me those parses because I will not believe a thing of it until I see it with my own eyes. I play both THF and WAR to the best of my abilities (which I consider pretty good) and they are lightyears apart, so much that I cannot call a THF a DD if someone asks whether or not it is. I take a minute to kill NMs that take me five or more to kill on THF. And I admit that my dagger options are currently "meh" at best, but even counting a 20% efficiency gain I'd get from Mandau/Coruscanti I still wouldn't get near my WAR in damage, and anyone who says that I cannot, in good conscience, take seriously.

So if anyone is calling THF a gimp DD it's me, stop putting it on Karby. I don't see him saying it once. THF can get shit done and I get shit done on THF too whenever time is not an issue and I prefer having TH or more survival capabilities, I still would never bring it to any type of non-TH-able party situation like Voidwatch or Einherjar (yes, some people still do that). THF is a TH whore right now and in very few instances a good evasion tank, for whenever it's needed (which is barely anything these days). Anyone who even for a second believes otherwise is kidding themselves.

Also, it was obvious he was talking about weapon DPS not melee DPS. Also, SMN is the shit.

[Rezeak]

kinda a bad idea.

mainly because it won't change anything really but give thf a small dmg boost and could be done alot easier by giving THF triple attack II or w/e.

either way seems a waste of a dev's time tweaking this.

[Karbuncle]

kinda a bad idea.

mainly because it won't change anything really but give thf a small dmg boost and could be done alot easier by giving THF triple attack II or w/e.

either way seems a waste of a dev's time tweaking this.

Well yah, We've moved on from this idea. Even me.

That said, We already have Triple Attack II, and any job Adjustment, unless its a nerf, Is worth the Devs time. Considering their time has no tangible value.

[Fupafighter]

Don't think sam can use grim cuirrass +1 lol...OR i would have one.

[Motenten]

Eh, it's probly for her war or drk or something then. They were just items I remembered offhand that she's put a lot of effort into getting.

[Aana]

Honestly, this entire issue will forever be shrouded in 'grey area' territory.

Thf currently: Does some damage. Not as much as top tier super buffed up 60TP, return 80% hasted, cor/brd buffed warriors. Does more damage than a full support (Brd for example).


No one says they should do THAT much damage as a superman war. Good we agree. No one says we should be on Brd level. Good we agree. So all anyone fighting for increased damage can say is "we dont do enough damage because our utility isnt very useful". The forest will always get lost for the trees because trying to pin down how much damage is 'enough' is 100% opinion and no way to quantitatively determine how much 'damage' thf deserves to have and in which of a myriad of situations it should apply.

Its WAY to fluffy and entirely dependant on everyones personal view of what 'enough' damage is. If all you do is farm dynamis, thf is more than adequate. If all you do is VW, then you will be frustrated and pissed off because thf is junky
___________________
Note on VW:
I feel that is more due to lack of procs than damage. People prefer smns to real DDs for procs. War/Drks proc more than most DDs WHILE doing good damage. I get asked to go Rng over my GD Ryunohige mythic Drg that rapes EVERYONE in DD power because rng covers way more procs than drg. People dont really invite jobs to VW for prime DD in most cases. They need procs because a group of medium DDs with infinite fanatics drinks and TP wings>>>>>Super DDs with 1-2 refills. If my damn Ryunohige drg gets cut for my mediocre rng, tripling thfs damage will have NO effect on VW. No procs. No VW love. The end.
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/back on topic.
It is an uphill battle to obtain any concensus on where thf damage 'should' be because it is weighing a tangible gain (damage, specifically vs high end mobs) vs intangible ones whos value is entirely in the eye of the beholder and what they personally do with thf.

Its not really an argument you can win because there is no finish line. That is why i took the stance early on in the thread about 'what tangible problem does it solve' because we will never gain any consensus on what level of damage is 'adequate' for thf. Some people are very happy with their overall damage based ontheir experience. Some think its dismal (if all you do is VW/Large zergy events). Trying to rally thfs all under 1 banner will prove more problematic than consolidating the republican constituency behind 1 canditate this year :P

Much like going to the rdm forums and saying we need a 5% boost to nuking damage to make it 'more viable'. No one will argue that a 5% nuke boost doesnt help make rdm nukeing 'more viable' but will devolve into a 'Rdm nuking is fine for what rdm is' vs 'Rdm isnt a blm! Quit trying to make it a heavy nuker we dont need it!!!' Or similarly upping sword damage as a solution to rdm melee would encounter virtually identical infighting.

[Fupafighter]

Why is everything about VW lol?

[Laphine]

because voidwatch is the current endgame? no matter what other events you do, you will have to face vw in the end. I even had plans to work on mandau for more thieving power, but why bother? In the end i would have to go back to vw and stop using thf (and all these items i worked my ass for) forever.

[Karbuncle]

Why is everything about VW lol?

Laphine summed it up nicely, But its because its the current endgame content where the majority of the good Armor in the game comes from, and will come from in the near future.

There are other endgame events planned, And currently Neo-Nyzul exists, But Neo-Nyzul as i explained in the Neo-Nyzul thread isn't THF Friendly either, With the update coming along where you can "kill 5 bosses = get 1 piece of that bosses item" or "Kill Floor 100 once and get 1 Floor 100 body", while the normal Enemies can still drop those items, Dropping a THF for a WAR or BLU or a better DD in general and picking up a few more moments of killspeed is far more favorable than bringing in the "magic dust" that may or may not get you a drop.

Being able to largely increase your chance of Consistently hitting floor 80 by Dropping TH and picking up a Faster DD is a much smarter idea than bringing a THF In hope it causes the mob to drop something. Not saying to leave TH out entirely, have your Mage come /THF, or if you're using a SCH and they need /WHM for Haste, Then bring a BST, or have one of your BLU's set Treasure Hunter.

If dropping your THF Gets you to Floor 80 Even 20% more often, You've shortened the time it would take to get all the floor 100 Armor by Weeks if not Months. Thief is, because TH's being its only "use", a liability in just about every endgame event of consequence.

SE Sees it too, But instead of buffing THF, god forbid they actually buff a job like they promised too, they nerf BST, which won't make a difference in the long run, because the only event that'd effect in reality is Dynamis, and that won't stop BSTs from doing Dynamis on BST because if your options are to solo, BST/DNC > THF/DNC, no amount of Unknown mysterious drop rate increases will change that.

Legion, In the upcomming future, Appears to implore a random-drop system as well, So that might mean 1 Single THF might make its way into some alliances, but that doesn't quite make the job okay. (and before its lost, THF isn't the only job that suffers from this, just the one in discussion)

[Zargosa]

Altho I can honestly admit to not reading the entire post, SE doesn't have a track record of repeatedly changing things due to "balance" other than messing with COR rolls more times than I can recall over the years. They've actually given dagger a fairly large damage boost than what it originally was, proof being that Garuda's Dagger used to be one of the better daggers to have until they changed 98% of the dmg up a few notches, yet it still retains the original stats placed upon it. However if they do actually read through it (hopefully more than myself) it would be nice to have higher dps as THF instead of just burst damage without having to run empy aftermath for a few extra points of damage.

Examples of the last times they did it being
http://www.zam.com/wiki/September_14%2C_2004_Update_Notes_%28FFXI%29

http://www.zam.com/wiki/July_25%2C_2006_Update_Notes_%28FFXI%29

[Babekeke]

Can a THF get shit done? Most certainly. Does it compare to real DDs? Not one bit. Motenten your math skills in all honors but show me those parses because I will not believe a thing of it until I see it with my own eyes. I play both THF and WAR to the best of my abilities (which I consider pretty good) and they are lightyears apart, so much that I cannot call a THF a DD if someone asks whether or not it is. I take a minute to kill NMs that take me five or more to kill on THF.

Some things to remember about comparing THF and WAR in the time it takes to solo a mob...

Retalliation allows a WAR to do more damage to a mob that is attacking it. (due to extra TP gained from counters allowing them to WS more frequently).

Aside from Bully, Sneak Attack Mechanics mean that a THF does less damage to a mob that is attacking it.

If you're solo or even duoing with a mage, you're losing out on Trick Attack damage/WS stacking.

THF and WAR on a mob at the same time, both performing to the best of their abilities with decent gear/weapons, aren't really going to be miles apart, especially if the THF gets enough hate to prevent the WAR getting loads of counters off, but is able to connect Sneak Attack every time. Faster attacking mobs will obviously allow the WAR to retalliate more, and deal a higher % of the overall damage.

[Starry]

Some things to remember about comparing THF and WAR in the time it takes to solo a mob...

Retalliation allows a WAR to do more damage to a mob that is attacking it.

Aside from Bully, Sneak Attack Mechanics mean that a THF does less damage to a mob that is attacking it.

If you're solo or even duoing with a mage, you're losing out on Trick Attack damage/WS stacking.

THF and WAR on a mob at the same time, both performing to the best of their abilities with decent gear/weapons, aren't really going to be miles apart, especially if the THF gets enough hate to prevent the WAR getting loads of counters off, but is able to connect Sneak Attack every time. Faster attacking mobs will obviously allow the WAR to retalliate more, and deal a higher % of the overall damage.

So let me get this straight, the argument here is that apparently MOST of war's damage comes from retaliation? ...lol

Please explain to us a situation or two where THF would encompass close to 70:30 of a parse against a 'fairly equal' war. Or what are you considering 'not miles apart' are you talking 50%, 40%, 5%? Sure the above comparison is a little off, but the point is in almost every single situation(at least that I can think of) a WAR(or SAM, or DRK) is going to be 30%+ higher on a parse of <.<

*Unless of course your comparing an extremely high end to an extremely low end gear/skill player. While it'll always be hard to get 'equal skill and gear' we can try.

[Aana]

I guess ill have to go thf to legion once i finish my mandau as there is a war in my LS that is about as close to the magical "equal skill, equal gear" to me that I have ever found that I have access to play with on a regular basis.

Both have relic and empy (well ill obtain my 75 mandau tomorrow, so close enough :P). Both have premiere gear of similar calibur. Both play very aggressively. Both gear swap and optimize TP builds. X factor that we both play 'intelligently' (hard to quantify) and both had a friendly rivalry that goes back at least 3 years from his war vs my drg in einherjar twice a week as #1 and #2 without fail (unless someone died or had some otherwise terrible luck). He's frankly the best war on the server im aware of, and im (likely) the best drg (i know of 2 other mythic drgs, but never seen them in action) and my thf is of a very similar calibur as my drg once i get a mandau as far as reaching potential. This guy is basically the barometer I use to see if I can pull my weight on any job. An intelligent, superbly geared war!? BLASPHEMY!!!

I just hope legion isnt another damn medicated overdose event. Is it to much to ask for ONE large event that is 'clean' to see where everyone stands instead of this atma/atmacite/med spamming crap? I have been looking forward to legion for just this reason for ages. I want to see how everything shakes out at 99 with all the adjustments without being swung by who uses the most meds, who get stuck procing for half the fight instead of killing. Just a clean slate, even field to go romp in. I hope legion is what i think it will be ><

[SpankWustler]

So let me get this straight, the argument here is that apparently MOST of war's damage comes from retaliation? ...lol

When a Warrior is the only thing hitting a thing with a thing, that Warrior can take full advantage of Retaliation for more damage.

When a Thief is the only thing hitting a thing with a thing, that Thief can not use Trick Attack at all and is limited by Bully recast for Sneak Attack.

He's not saying most of Warrior's damage comes from Retaliation, just that a one-melee situation super-duper heavily favors Warrior over Thief. More than almost any situation would favor almost any melee over Thief.

In a similar vein, I think Thief and one or two other competent melee leads to better Sneak Attack and Trick Attack results than most situations. The monster doesn't spin like a top and no one present is daft, dim, water-headed, malevolent, or malicious enough to move out of the way of Trick Attack.

Thief's performance is more at the mercy of outside factors and other players than most melee, even other "low attack" melee such as Beastmaster or Dancer.

[Babekeke]

So let me get this straight, the argument here is that apparently MOST of war's damage comes from retaliation? ...lol

Please explain to us a situation or two where THF would encompass close to 70:30 of a parse against a 'fairly equal' war. Or what are you considering 'not miles apart' are you talking 50%, 40%, 5%? Sure the above comparison is a little off, but the point is in almost every single situation(at least that I can think of) a WAR(or SAM, or DRK) is going to be 30%+ higher on a parse of <.<

*Unless of course your comparing an extremely high end to an extremely low end gear/skill player. While it'll always be hard to get 'equal skill and gear' we can try.

I have no idea how you got that from what I said...
Here's a hypothetical (but highly probable) situation: Ukon WAR with 25% haste gear, Hasso and haste (from whm that the war is duoing with). 50% haste total resulting in a swing every 4 seconds. Giving the benefit of the doubt for 25% double-attack, and a 6-hit setup, it's 16 seconds between WS, +2 secs for the WS animation. If the mob is hitting on you exclusively, and you retalliate once between each WS, you get the TP from that, not just the damage so now you just reduced your WS timer from 18 seconds to 14 seconds. More than a 22% increase in damage caused by retalliation.

It's hypothetical, and I'm not 100% on what sort of figures for double-attack a WAR can reach in a 6-hit with Ukon, but you get the picture. (I made it 6-hit since it made the numbers easier for averaging double-attack once per ws, and it actually made the difference slightly less increase).


When a Warrior is the only thing hitting a thing with a thing, that Warrior can take full advantage of Retaliation for more damage.

When a Thief is the only thing hitting a thing with a thing, that Thief can not use Trick Attack at all and is limited by Bully recast for Sneak Attack.

He's not saying most of Warrior's damage comes from Retaliation, just that a one-melee situation super-duper heavily favors Warrior over Thief. More than almost any situation would favor almost any melee over Thief.

In a similar vein, I think Thief and one or two other competent melee leads to better Sneak Attack and Trick Attack results than most situations. The monster doesn't spin like a top and no one present is daft, dim, water-headed, malevolent, or malicious enough to move out of the way of Trick Attack.

Thief's performance is more at the mercy of outside factors and other players than most melee, even other "low attack" melee such as Beastmaster or Dancer.

Thanks SW, I'm glad someone got it, so what I was saying obviously wasn't just garbage.

[Karbuncle]

I almost responded to you like Star, But i re-read it a couple times, and realized all you were saying was "Another factor is Retaliation, So while its not a huge WAR boost, Its something to consider".

:D

Its very misleading, you should clarify just a little, I can see where Star is coming from.

[Starry]

Yea, I read it a few times and I just couldn't get if he was meaning something else; it really sounded the way I responsed to -- lol.

[saevel]

That's because nobody wants to go smn >.> So if they can get you on it, that's more useful than trying to find someone else who even has it above level 4.

This totally this. Simply put having SMN for unique procs > having more then one dagger proc (usually DNC).

My geared jobs are WAR SAM DRK BLU RDM. I have a 90 Almace 99 TP Bonus GKT and 99 Magian GAXE (WS+10%) and a 90 Sissy GSWD. Guess which job I'm constantly asked to go? Not my better geared BLU / WAR / SAM / RDM but DRK. Because apparently not many people have it leveled, it covers useful procs and makes the COR's chaos roll better. I don't like having to go DRK all the time, I feel dirty because it's not geared up to my own personal standard, but if it's needed then it's needed. So don't feel bad if party's are asking you to go SMN over THF, to them it's easier to put you in the SMN slot and know it's taken care of then to have u come THF (a common job now) and have to scrounge for a SMN.

[Babekeke]

Yea, I read it a few times and I just couldn't get if he was meaning something else; it really sounded the way I responsed to -- lol.

Ok, I edited it... hope this makes more sense now?


Retalliation allows a WAR to do more damage to a mob that is attacking it. (due to extra TP gained from counters allowing them to WS more frequently).