SMN adjustments....seriously?

[leorez]

i know most of the adjustments they have been posting havent been amazing so far, but at least they have been useful and direct (changes to skills themselves and then changes to merits for balance)

...really...merits for the elements....thats it? does anyone give even the slightest crap about the elements? They are just there to suck MP from...

its been so many years and yet SE still doesnt even know what the hell they want to do with SMN. Thanks for the troll SE.

[Runespider]

Balance must be preserved!

[Dreamin]

Agreed. SMN among all the playerbase has been trolled by SE BIG TIME.

Would love to know how many SMN even merit that at all (and actually uses it). I know that there are 'some' but it certainly isn't a large number among those players who jump on SMN on any regular basis.

[Clou777]

only a noob smn would merit this because they dont have any avatars at lv99 after an abyssea party... totally pointless

[Avelonia]

New Blood Pact Rages, our promised Cait-Sith/Atomos, and exploring the possibility of Phoenix/Bahamut is what you should be focusing on. Not this junk ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ; ;

[cidbahamut]

does anyone give even the slightest crap about the elements? They are just there to suck MP from...

In before Mellowy.

[Urteil]

I thought the DRK/PLD updates couldn't be topped.


But I was proven wrong, SE never fails to disappoint!

[Dallas]

I have 4 merits left in spirit perp costs. It all gets down to the fundamental stat of SMN: mp. Let's
see what they do to the spirits themselves, then determine the value. Less cost = better gear choice.

[leorez]

if they could at least let us have some minor control over the spirits, then this might be worth while, but pure randomness, high prep cost and zero control make them a joke.

they will continue to be a source of MP suction lol. Even if i could have one out w/ no prep cost, id still never use it because of the other reasons.

and no, 99% of summons put merits into the acc/macc attack/mattack slots.

[Edyth]

With massive summoning magic skill over the cap (me, and any other career SMN), meriting Avatar Accuracy is questionable at best.

Avatar Magic Accuracy is a silly merit category, and summoning magic skill affects magic accuracy so much that you shouldn't have any merits in that. 0/5, no questions.

Avatar Magic Attack should be 5/5, no questions.

That leaves Avatar Attack and Elemental MP Cost. Attack damage is quite random and the boost is insignifcant. I used the Royal Redingote with avatar attack +15 for a while (which is approximately equivalent to having it fully merited), and the difference is so minor that it's impossible to notice without looking for it and giving it the benefit of the doubt. After that experience, 0/5 for sure.

So, Elemental MP Cost. If you're a serious SMN, and you solo things like Splitting Heirs (4 orc NMs at once) or other very strong NMs, last thing you need is the hate spike from hitting release. So, my little spirit does get some action. He fights after I siphon, unless he just totally ****s it up somehow. There have also been a few lengthy, drawn-out battles where, after the entire party is hurting and has exhausted all sources of MP, I resort to using one of my spirits instead of resting (lowmanning the Voidwatch Taurus in Sauromugue Champaign S, for example), because they still nuke for 0 MP cost to me. Finally, I don't use any refresh Atma on SMN in Abyssea too often (I tend to use RR/VV/Ducal Guard), so when I'm soloing and try to proc yellow, it's helpful that my spirits don't waste my MP.

So, with avatar attack being insignificant and magic acc/physical acc being boosted so much by skill, I chose to do something that can only be done with merits: I made the spirits usable.

EDIT: Now, just having 2 merits in Eemental MP cost will give -6 perp, which is better than what 5/5 merits gave. So my plan is to retract 3 merits from Elemental MP cost and put them into avatar physical accuracy, because I literally have no recollection of a merit BP every being resisted, and my debuff wards stick better than BLM and RDM debuffs (because most of those players have less enfeebling skill than I have summoning skill), so magic accuracy is unnecessary.

[leorez]

^ im sure you and one other guy will be pleased.

but seriously...where is the real SMn update?

[Rezeak]

Same as above

i have 5/5 elemental mp cost

why? pretty much to be able to have light ele out for buffs/cures

[Lukikii]

From the census last year, http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/guide/development/census/10/3.html, you can see how many people merit Elemental MP cost. I'm not one of them, and this adjustment will not make me change my merits. With all the other things that could be done to better SMN, this isn't one of them.

[Dallas]

^ im sure you and one other guy will be pleased.

but seriously...where is the real SMn update?
If you really believe SE will update the cost without updating the power of these pets then I have news for you...

You are probably right.

[Alhanelem]

The MP cost isn't why spirits are terrible. it's everything about them combined. low HP, terrible stats, no control over them, casts spells you dont want them to cast,

About the only thing making spirits cheaper does is increase the net MP return on siphon slightly.

[Dallas]

The MP cost isn't why spirits are terrible. it's everything about them combined. low HP, terrible stats, no control over them, casts spells you dont want them to cast,

About the only thing making spirits cheaper does is increase the net MP return on siphon slightly.
I'm thinking a pet: MAB staff would disagree.

[Zubis]

http://www.playonline.com/ff11eu/guide/development/census/10/3.html

As previously stated 3-4% of Summoners actually use this option according to the last census.

So what, basically one Summoner per server will get a use out of this?

[leorez]

The MP cost isn't why spirits are terrible. it's everything about them combined. low HP, terrible stats, no control over them, casts spells you dont want them to cast,

About the only thing making spirits cheaper does is increase the net MP return on siphon slightly.

pretty much, the lack of control being the major throw away here. Its like they want people to use them, but they refuse to fix them.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I have 4 merits left in spirit perp costs. It all gets down to the fundamental stat of SMN: mp. Let's
see what they do to the spirits themselves, then determine the value. Less cost = better gear choice.

It's almost funny you having elemental mp cost merits was completely expected.

[Alerith]

I was pissed about the Paladin update.

Then I saw the Summoner update.

I'm still pissed about the Paladin update, but I feel a deep sorrow for Summoner's everywhere.

And I'm not a summoner....

[Razushu]

It's starting to feel like SE is going out of their way to keep SMN in the back of the pack. They could have announced they were changing just about anything else of SMN and got a better reaction(because you know ANYTHING would have been more useful).

SE is starting to read as "Screwing Evokers" rather than Square Enix when I see it now.

[Garenos]

The super-secret about SE and SMN:

SE hired a guy to performe the SMN programming in the game, but that guy died and they´re not good to perform real ajustments on the job and it´s drawbacks. So, they just change 1 variable in whole code to "adjust" the most nerfed job in this game.

Shame SE

[idx1]

Though the SMN update clearly indicates that SE doesn't have practical experience in regards to playing SMN, there is one good thing about this update.

It allows a SMN to proc in Abyssea more easily cuz it'll be cheaper MP cost to have it out.
owait if you have MM MP is not an issue.

aka this update would of been only worth a damn if you could have an elemental and an avatar out at the same time.

Add the ability menu to control what your elemental can cast / do.


tldr; pretty pointless update.

[Rezeak]

While this update could of been better but i <3 the people that go on about 5/5 elemetal mp cost is useless

basically Avatar Acc/att/Macc are all useless as well the only reason i merited 5/5 on this is because being a weaken smn getting a light sprit to spam cure V/aga IV (across allys) has saved my ls a couple of times and the abilty to fully heal myself without wasting a WHMs mp.

While it's not something to write home about it's more useful than adding on acc which any real summoner will have capped skil merit and gear for anyway.

and avatar attack 5/5 will increase you pet DMG by.............. 1-2% maybe lol.

The issue is all but pet:mab merits are useless.

[SpankWustler]

"Mayor, there's a fire in the industrial district! Four massive tanks of gasoline just exploded! People are melting like birthday candles! It's horrifying!"

"I see...That is truly a problem..."

"What should we do?!"

"Send them gasoline to replace what just exploded, obviously."

"..."

"What are you waiting for, Secretary? Those poor people are all out of gasoline!"

[Dallas]

It's almost funny you having elemental mp cost merits was completely expected.

I penned the "MAB merits are also worthless" argument. Pettp is infinitely more useful for pet cures than it is for 75 BPs. With nothing else to waste merits on, I had full perp merits and p.ATT merits.

[Septimus]

So, Elemental MP Cost. If you're a serious SMN, and you solo things like Splitting Heirs (4 orc NMs at once) or other very strong NMs, last thing you need is the hate spike from hitting release.

Let's just stop here.

If you are a serious SMN you have the Magian avatar perpetuation staves to at least level 90 (or a Nirvana if you are super, super cereal) meaning that your Elemental Spirits are free or give you MP back. Elemental Spirit merits are wholly unnecessary.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I penned the "MAB merits are also worthless" argument. Pettp is infinitely more useful for pet cures than it is for 75 BPs. With nothing else to waste merits on, I had full perp merits and p.ATT merits.

So your justification for Elemental MP cost down merits is something that has nothing to do with elemental spirits whatsoever.

Okay.

[Malamasala]

Only merits useful are MAB merits. The rest are trash, and in the heap of trash, I'd pick perpetuation cost down.

Not that I've really used spirits since 75, since they never get any new spells.

[Dallas]

So your justification for Elemental MP cost down merits is something that has nothing to do with elemental spirits whatsoever.

Okay.
10 - 0 =10 merits left after I spent them on the useful stuff. Perp merits actually do SOMETHING.

[Alhanelem]

I'm thinking a pet: MAB staff would disagree.
that pet MAB staff does a farkton more to avatars using merit pacts than it does to spirits with what seems like 0 INT and no base MAB casting Element IV.

It doesn't matter if you add 50 damage to a tier IV nuke or 50 damage to a merit pact. The latter is far better regardless.


If you are a serious SMN you have the Magian avatar perpetuation staves to at least level 90If you are a serious SMN, you don't need these. I have a staff with zero perp - and zero refresh on, and perpetuation cost is still compeltely inconsequential. I do not have and will not ever have those staves, because I don't need them. They don't make my avatars stronger, they don't make my spirits stronger, and my MP is virtually unlimited as it is. the best summoner gear out there gives you both perp - and other beneficial effects. Any good summoner should have free/minimal cost avatars with just the gear they're going to use anyway, before they even equip a weapon.

However, the underlying point you're making I totally agree with. For any real SMN, these merits should be unnecessary, even if you really want to use spirits that badly. But most don't, because The spirits themselves Are what's so bloody terrible! NO one gives a damn about their perpetuation cost, they have too many other failings.

[Dallas]

I totally agree. The pet still needs fixing.

[Camate]

Greetings.

I would like to share a bit of information about our process for all adjustments, not just adjustments for summoner. Regarding the information we reveal about proposed changes and changes to the test server, we are only revealing specs that have become possible to implement, in the order that they have become possible. This means that the changes we announce are not the only changes that we have in mind. Please keep in mind that it is very possible that we are looking into changes that we are not yet at a point where we can announce them.

There are many adjustments that we must look into patiently and there are many adjustments that need a long time to implement. As a result, there may be times where we are not able to reveal everything that is taking place, but this does not mean that nothing is being worked on. We are constantly evaluating new adjustments.

[Karbuncle]

Still, This will remain the most useless merits we can merit unless somehow they allow us to have Both Avatars and Elementals out at the same time >_>

Its nice to know they may be working on something else though. Probably in the process of readjusting Atomos' Size for the next 4 years :P

(Anybody waiting for Alexander/Odin would get that joke)

[Alhanelem]

I think most of us realize that this little merit change isn't the only thing in the pipeline for Summoner- What I'm trying to say personally, is changing this doesn't really do much of anything. It doesn't even make the merit itself more worthwhile, because you don't even need to offset the spirit's perpetuation cost by 15. I suppose the mentality might be that people might put one or possibly 2 points in it since the effect is stronger, but most people aren't even going to look at it unless spirits themselves are changed in some way.

Personally, I think revamping spirits is a wasted effort since the avatars are what summoner is really about, but I do recognize that some people have an infatuation with them for some reason and it shouldn't be ignored entirely.

[SpankWustler]

Thanks for coming out and saying that, Camate. It's nice to hear that out-loud, even if it's already assumed to be the case. Optimistically, this might be a sign the Development Bros are messing with various aspects of spirits. More realistically, at least all the talk about adjusting merits lately means that the merit re-vamp is on it's way.

Still, it's just hard to resist complaining sometimes.


Its nice to know they may be working on something else though. Probably in the process of readjusting Atomos' Size for the next 4 years :P

(Anybody waiting for Alexander/Odin would get that joke)

I can hear the creative process now:

"It looks too much like a butt now...People can't summon a giant butt." "I'll work on that that." "Now it doesn't look enough like a butt." "I'll fix that." "This version looks more like the front, I think." "Sorry, I was lonely."

Three years pass.

"Ah, it looks exactly 47.92% butt-like now! The ideal has been achieved! Time to add this guy to the test server!"

[Ophannus]

Making Elementals useful is like making Tier 2 Elemental Magic useful. Leave elements where they are

[Sargent]

The reason SE released this info now (coinciding with the SCH/Spirit adjustments) is because it is a simple adjustment to make.
That said, it's still a useless adjustment to a useless merit. Why you would merit anything regarding Elementals is beyond me.

[DrForester]

AMAZING!. This will save me 2-6 MP for the 2-3 ticks I have a element out for Siphon.*

THANK YOU SQUENIX!


* You know... If I was silly enough to put merits into spirits.

[Xaven]

wow merit mp for elements. Who even uses them anyways, I have them all but i only use them for Elemental Siphon. If anything update our Elemental so they have the lvl 99 spells then that would be a nice reason to use our spirits or give us BP with them something useful them this "The Elemental MP Cost merit point enhancement will reduce MP cost by three points per level instead of one"

[Tawnee]

Camate, What ever became of Cait-sith and Atomos and is there a specific reason why we haven't received any decent new Blood Pact: Rage abilities since 75 cap?

[leorez]

Camate, What ever became of Cait-sith and Atomos and is there a specific reason why we haven't received any decent new Blood Pact: Rage abilities since 75 cap?

because SE doesnt like giving SMN nice things. And sadly that dev response didnt help anything, its still a fricken useless adjustment, not even sure why they bothered with it...or doing it first.

[Tohihroyu]

BUT GAIS THE ELEMENTAL AVATARS ARE SO SUPA KAWAII DESU ^_____^ CAIT SITH & ATMOS ARE BAKAS!

*headdesk*

This among many other reason is why so many are quitting. This is a load of bullshit.

[Edyth]

Let's just stop here.

If you are a serious SMN you have the Magian avatar perpetuation staves to at least level 90 (or a Nirvana if you are super, super cereal) meaning that your Elemental Spirits are free or give you MP back. Elemental Spirit merits are wholly unnecessary.

Or, I'm in the process of working on Nirvana, and I'm not wasting my time on 7~8 staves that, combined, are still nothing compared to Nirvana.

Just finished the assault journals portion, getting Sarameya Hide on Friday (and already have Tinnin's Fang), got less than 30K ichor to go, working on gil hording for Alexandrite, and nearly 1/3 done with Nyzul tokens.

And I'm not lugging around 8 bullshit auction house staves for SMN either. Bahamut's Staff is holding me over till I get Nirvana.

[Karbuncle]

Or, I'm in the process of working on Nirvana, and I'm not wasting my time on 7~8 staves that, combined, are still nothing compared to Nirvana.

Just finished the assault journals portion, getting Sarameya Hide on Friday (and already have Tinnin's Fang), got less than 30K ichor to go, working on gil hording for Alexandrite, and nearly 1/3 done with Nyzul tokens.

And I'm not lugging around 8 bullshit auction house staves for SMN either. Bahamut's Staff is holding me over till I get Nirvana.

Then you're almost 10% Complete with it! Considering Alexandrite is going to be your biggest obstacle >_>

Also, I had Twilight, Triplus, and Upgrade Kila's even though i was working on Mandau, and now most of those weapons are useless. Having a long term goal is no excuse for being gimp right now :)

[Edyth]

Then you're almost 10% Complete with it! Considering Alexandrite is going to be your biggest obstacle >_>

Also, I had Twilight, Triplus, and Upgrade Kila's even though i was working on Mandau, and now most of those weapons are useless. Having a long term goal is no excuse for being gimp right now :)

Maybe this is somewhat hypocritical coming from someone working on a mythic weapon, but there's more to life than FFXI. And there's more to life than this forum, Ms. 2,675 Posts.

In real life, you invest money into things that are worthwhile. In this game, I'm investing time into things that are worthwhile. Nirvana is enough hours down the drain as it is. I don't need to do 7~8 staves whose ultimate destiny is to be dropped.

[Karbuncle]

Maybe this is somewhat hypocritical coming from someone working on a mythic weapon, but there's more to life than FFXI. And there's more to life than this forum, Ms. 2,675 Posts.

In real life, you invest money into things that are worthwhile. In this game, I'm investing time into things that are worthwhile. Nirvana is enough hours down the drain as it is. I don't need to do 7~8 staves whose ultimate destiny is to be dropped.

Its hypocritical. I think it also shows you don't really have a valid argument. you're attempting to pull a RL Card based on someones post count. You've pretty much just lost any shred of validity you had left.

Considering I have a full time job, and still managed to work on these things, My work did slow my progress, but I didn't let a long term goal get in the way of my short-term performance. If you're playing FFXI Enough to consider Nirvana a goal, you really have no right to attempt to throw out a RL Card.

Because long term goals are not a valid excuse at being mediocre in the present. Most of the Elemental staves (2-3 excused...) Are really rather simple to get. How do i know this? I've helped a friend make a few of them, and she's working on Nirvana as well.

Coincidental eh?

You're not going to have a functional Nirvana for a very long time, Even longer if you don't play often, as you describe clearly. While i understand the idea of not wanting the Staves because of Nirvana, That is an incredibly long term goal, The Elemental Trial Staves would serve you a good long time before you got a Nirvana 95/99.

And you don't really need all 8, just work on a few important ones. Like Thunder, and Ice. The two most used Avatars. This is a reachable Short-Term Goal to hold you over during your Long-Term plan.

Hell, Even a Bahamut's Staff or Fay Crozier would be a worth-while short-term investment. Though the Perp- Staves from *Trials* are much more potent, thus allow you to use different gear-sets for Avatar Idle rather than piling on the Perp-.

Now, I'd be remiss if i didn't add, I feel the Perp Staves are less than important in todays Vana'diel, With voidwatch being MP-Item Heavy, and so forth. So in a way, i Feel that aren't a very worthwhile goal, However, the core of your reasoning is what my replies are directed too. If you had said "I don't want to get them because MP is really not an issue" i'd of be like "Okay then". but your Reasoning is more "I don't want too and you have no real life for thinking its possible", Which is where our problems begin :)

Also I'm a guy.

[Lyandra]

Personally, I think revamping spirits is a wasted effort since the avatars are what summoner is really about, but I do recognize that some people have an infatuation with them for some reason and it shouldn't be ignored entirely.

I personally have been wanting to use spirits to fight with since I first unlocked SMN many years ago. The fact remains they deal strong elemental damage and have damage resistance, just like the normal elementals. They're a lot more useful than people give them credit for but they have terrible, terrible AI controlling them. Like them or not, they're a part of the job and should be used more often than they should.

Please S-E, continue working on strengthening elemental spirits, and consider revamping them like you did BST jug pets... let us control what spells they cast on a charge system, and increase their spell list; this alone would make them not only more useful but more desirable in combat.

[Karbuncle]

Their Nukes are so terrible its not worth the MP Cost to keep them out - Even if they were free :P

I wouldn't mind a Strengthening of Spirits, as more of a bonus Update, But people would be a little upset if its the only SMN update they got.

Still, Light spirit has Potential, If its AI Was better/More Controlled.

[Babekeke]

1) Scrap the enfeebles from elementals.
2) Let them cast either their highest tier AM, I-V nuke or aga as the only randomness.
3) Give them some MAB.
4) Allow the timer to run as low as 15 seconds (not sure what it caps at without Astral Flow right now)

Then and only then would it be worth using the spirits to nuke. BP rage > BP ward > release > spirit for 2 nukes > Avatar BP again.

[Sonshou]

um.... does this merit change comes with the whole new spell list for elemental spirits? Becoz my spirits pet still doesn't cast Tier 5 elemental magic or AM2. nor the light spirit do cure 5 or cure 6. My SMN magic skill is 410 base with merit and equipments (I know I am not capped yet v.v), no way my skill is hindering the spell cast level.

BTW are we going to get the elemental from abyssea? they seem to have more spell than the spirits I currently have.

And ..... for crying over 7 years on SMN. Will we have the slightest chance to command our spirit to cast spell?

[leorez]

I personally have been wanting to use spirits to fight with since I first unlocked SMN many years ago. The fact remains they deal strong elemental damage and have damage resistance, just like the normal elementals. They're a lot more useful than people give them credit for but they have terrible, terrible AI controlling them. Like them or not, they're a part of the job and should be used more often than they should.

Please S-E, continue working on strengthening elemental spirits, and consider revamping them like you did BST jug pets... let us control what spells they cast on a charge system, and increase their spell list; this alone would make them not only more useful but more desirable in combat.

i dont see why having a charge system would not work, seems fine by me. I was fiddling with a couple elements last night (skill is 412~) and after 6 mins my light spirit cast flash...then while fighting Dragua (sp? that earth dragon in abyssea) i let my Wind spirit poke for around 10 mins....and all i got was gravity out of it.

in conclusion....they still blow even if they cost nothing to have out. The one thing the main avatars dont do so well....is nuke, so why not make the spirits our nuke group?

but i know im shouting at a wall called SE, im not expecting much of anything from them anymore.

[Dreamin]

Greetings.

I would like to share a bit of information about our process for all adjustments, not just adjustments for summoner. Regarding the information we reveal about proposed changes and changes to the test server, we are only revealing specs that have become possible to implement, in the order that they have become possible. This means that the changes we announce are not the only changes that we have in mind. Please keep in mind that it is very possible that we are looking into changes that we are not yet at a point where we can announce them.

There are many adjustments that we must look into patiently and there are many adjustments that need a long time to implement. As a result, there may be times where we are not able to reveal everything that is taking place, but this does not mean that nothing is being worked on. We are constantly evaluating new adjustments.

I presumed all these are done because of 'BALANCE' issue right?

SE, how about just not give us crap for adjustments and instead spent the resources on things that are far more important. If you're going to give us crap like this, I rather you just leave us along and work on other stuff that might benefit some other job (no the PLD JA adj isn't it either and I dont have PLD leveled).

Who the hell really is running the development now? Is there even vision/roadmap that you guys are following?

Also, let me tell you something that most ppl really want to hear. Tell us these vision/roadmap that you guys intended on doing. This isn't 2004 anymore and people want to see a clear layed out roadmap.

[Dallas]

Love the response Camate! I'll try to be constructive here. "We post what we can implement" leaves SMN in the dark all the time. You are telling everyone that you've invented butter, but not the bread. No one eats *just the butter*.

SE should be well aware that spirits are restricted to code that ends at L75ish. SE is likely working in that code. Next time, I recommend they wait until they finish the real programming before announcing they also changed one number on one merit.

"Enjoy your butter!"... Now what?

[Sargent]

um.... does this merit change comes with the whole new spell list for elemental spirits? Becoz my spirits pet still doesn't cast Tier 5 elemental magic or AM2. nor the light spirit do cure 5 or cure 6. My SMN magic skill is 410 base with merit and equipments (I know I am not capped yet v.v), no way my skill is hindering the spell cast level.

Just pointing out, LightSpirit has had Cure V since Level 75. And SE will never give Spirits AM2

[SpankWustler]

Also I'm a guy.

All of my weird, tingly feelings are sudden more slightly weird and slightly less tingly. Oh, wait a minute. They're a little more tingly, actually.


You are telling everyone that you've invented butter, but not the bread. No one eats *just the butter*.

WORKING
http://www.greatplainsexaminer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/paulaeatingbutter-300x300.jpg
AS INTENDED.

[Dreamin]

lol that picture is priceless...

[Babekeke]

um.... does this merit change comes with the whole new spell list for elemental spirits? Becoz my spirits pet still doesn't cast Tier 5 elemental magic or AM2. nor the light spirit do cure 5 or cure 6. My SMN magic skill is 410 base with merit and equipments (I know I am not capped yet v.v), no way my skill is hindering the spell cast level.

No, sorry, it doesn't. I was listing what SE should make happen

[Dallas]

Awesome, Spank! LOL

[Camate]

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

[Dreamin]

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

Then how about giving us some ideas (roadmap would be nice) as to what changes you guys are thinking for the Spirits? As long as these spirits has no controllable methods on what they cast and also getting the higher level nukes, they're useless (IMO).

Once we know what plan of changes to the spirits will be, we'll have a better understandings and can provide much better feedback. As it stand alone without knowing how these spirits changes will be, reducing elemental mp cost is essentially useless to majority of SMN players.

[Zubis]

I'd be happy with all effort that is going into elemental adjustments being moved to other aspects of the job instead; "reduced summoning casting time" is much more preferable than MP cost.

Dreamin's right though, it's dependent on what adjustments are being made to elementals. If it's just adding more spells, then no, it's not worth keeping "reduced elemental MP cost" around. However if elementals are undergoing the same overhaul that Puppetmaster automatons did, then maybe it is worth keeping around.

[SpankWustler]

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

It's almost impossible to say which would be better without knowing how spirits will be changed in the future.

As Spirits are now, it would be more useful to reduce the casting time. It would still be pretty pointless, but at least it's not currently possible to cap casting time reduction with other stuff already.

[Dallas]

My vote is to change the merit to casting time, as long as SE addresses the following issue:

Whenever the SMN uses the assault command, or the retreat command, the casting timer resets. This makes it impossible to use spirits offensively which is awful considering only the dark spirit is defensive. Remove this penalty, and then the timer will mean something. Only with this change will any mp cost be justified.

If this penalty must remain, the spirits should simply be free.

[Dallas]

While we're at it, spirits should be able to nuke a target mob without engaging it.

[Sonshou]

I have to see what change is going to implement on the elemental spirits before I can decide which one is better.

If, through seems not likely to happen, the change is to increase the degree of control over the elemental spirits, then I say go ahead on elemental spirit cost.

If the change is only regarding the spell list and elemental behavior, then I say reduce cast time is more useful.

[Sargent]

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

I would love to merit that.

However, I would not merit it over Avatar Attack/MAB, so yea...



Whenever the SMN uses the assault command, or the retreat command, the casting timer resets. This makes it impossible to use spirits offensively which is awful considering only the dark spirit is defensive. Remove this penalty, and then the timer will mean something. Only with this change will any mp cost be justified.

While we're in a position where the devs might read this... Can you also increase the range in which Summoner's command their avatar (i.e. Assault, Blood Pact) to that of casting magic? The majority of the time I die during Voidwatch is due to being within AoE range (but at the max range for commanding my avatar).

[Alhanelem]

Frankly I'd love the idea of reduced casting time.

Let it be known that perpetuation costs are not much of an issue anymore. Nobody needs to merit the perp cost of spirits down even if they want to use them.

[Saiken253]

I have another suggestion for SMN as well that hasn't been addressed: Have us commanding our pets to Assault NOT break Invisible. BST's ability Sic doesn't break Invisible and if you go into lore they would have to point and say what to attack, so Sic should break Sneak AND Invisible.

SMN's ability Assault is done telepathically: I.E. There's no need to verbal or visual aid(which the monsters BSTs control would require) for the Avatars, seeing as their minds are linked with ours.

[Dohati]

would the reduced summon casting time apply to all avatars? or just spirits? either way that sounds pretty lame. anything soloable for smn shouldnt make it to you before you can possibly recast an avatar. as for spirit perp, i wouldn't ever merit that either unless spirits start getting a lot better, although perp-15 for anything is pretty darn sweet.

[Karbuncle]

I still wouldn't merit it either way.

5/5 Attack and Magic Attack :|

[Tawnee]

How about scrapping this idea, and put more effort into getting us Cait Sith and Atomos quicker

[Saiken253]

how about scrapping those jokes for summons and give us something good!

[Alhanelem]

I have another suggestion for SMN as well that hasn't been addressed: Have us commanding our pets to Assault NOT break Invisible.Sic really should break invisible, because all offensive actions on an enemy, not just assault but any blood pact, strip invisible.

SMN would be drastically more powerful if it could attack and do damage without breaking invisible. I didn't even know BSTs could use offensive Sics, but it seems to me like that should be changed (Sorry!). No other job can attack while invisible, so I don't see how that's fair.

[Babekeke]

I still wouldn't merit it either way.

5/5 Attack and Magic Attack :|

Seconded.

Faster summoning cast time would increase our DoT very marginally as the avatar would get maybe an extra swing on the mob. In those 'oh sh1t' moments when you get agro/your avatar gets 1-shotted or whatever and you're too close to cast an avatar, you cast a spirit because they have low cast time.

[Fyreus]

Just pointing out, LightSpirit has had Cure V since Level 75. And SE will never give Spirits AM2

lol for some reason most people don't know that!

Another thing i want to point out is that most people don't know how to access certain spells from their spirits. if you haste yourself and regen yourself then you get buffs or heals. if you face your spirit's 'face' to another player (monkey in the middle) then the spirit will choose to heal the alliance in range or just that player alone. The biggest use for spirits was the thunder pact because all you'd need to do is stick shock and it would spam spells left and right. we've been asking that SE removes blm dot enfeebles from the spell cast so that we'd narrow down the random 'intelligence' that the pacts use.

I guess i should level sch and try smn/sch to see if shock will work >_> those thunder 4s better be sexy (atma or not!). One thing they could do while they are at is change the initial aggro cast time to instant if we're in trouble. When i used to force AM/t4 it was a pain getting more hate than my spirit. if the spirit had easy hate it would cast nonsense like dia, banish, or choke for example.

[Babekeke]

Light Spirit is actually the only spirit that has been kept even remotely up-to-date, with Banish IV and Holy II since 75.

[hideka]

for all that is holy YES. minus one second per merit. instant cast avatars yes prz.

[Dekusuta]

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

Why are players being forced to choose between elementals and avatars AGAIN?

Either allow us to 5 more merit slots to put into into reduction in elemental costs, or make the reduction in elemental prepetuation a flat bonus given to everyone, perhaps through a quest or item.

Avatars have been needing a buff in terms of reduced BP timer/increased damage. The reason I mention this is because MANY MANY players have leaned heavily on the Tier1 merits to increase their avatar's power. MAB and ATTK merits is a must for any summoner worth their salt. And now we're being forced to roll back some of these to accomodate an elemental perpetuation scheme with the promose of an 'overhaul' in elementals.

Here's a suggestion, overhaul how you deal with summoners first, because we're quite tired of getting trade off upgrades like avatar's favor (where we gimp our own damage and significantly reduce our flexibility as buffers because the AOE buffs from favour take a long time to max out) or useless addons like the recent BP for diabolos and fenrir while BSTs get new pets and can solo dynamis ad infinitum.

It's great that elementals might get an overhaul, but don't let us choose between two mediocre options. Buff avatars and let us have elementals we can actually command, instead of having to deal with an AI that keeps casting the same DOT spell over and over again.

[Malamasala]

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

Dear Camate.

Are you saying "reduced spirit spell casting time" or are you saying "reduced summoning time"? Because if it is spirit related it sounds logical, but if you change it completely to just pet summoning time, then you are changing what people merited and are just asking for people to quit in rage. (If you want to be that crazy, then kindly change MAB to MAB/Macc and attack to attack/accuracy and Macc to Pet movement speed and accuracy to -PDT. That way we have more and better choices.)

And if you mean spirit casting time, read below as to what the current issues actually are, and how this change in its own are going to be useless unless you announce other changes.

The giant list of reasons why nobody uses spirits

1. Timer reset. Each time you Assault, the timer is set to max delay. This prevents any and all uses of spirits. It is the same as each time you unsheathe your weapon, you get 0 TP. It is like each time you open your magic menu, your MP is set to 0. You are crippled, and the only thing you can do is work up the TP or MP while in battle.

2. Melee AI. All spirits prefer melee over distance casting. This means they can not be used on any enemy that uses AOE attacks, because AOE stun, AOE silence, AOE paralyze and AOE damage can interrupt their casting. However, if they didn't melee, they wouldn't work as "oh sh-t" emergency save pets on aggro.

1 and 2 together completely block off spirits from even casting spells on anything worthwhile. Either your monster is dead, or your spirit just got interrupted. But would you be fighting something trivial enough, the following problems will instead prevent you from wanting to use them.

3. Capped casting delay reduction. Spirit casting time is capped at about 20 seconds. It can't get lower than that, so it means you cast spells very rarely. This also means that +skill items stopped being useful for spirits already at level 75 cap, and these days it doesn't help to wear more skill for spirits.

4. No spells post level 75. I mean what is this about? Why would anyone want to use spirits if you leave them at level 75 spells?

5. Spell Selection. The debuff spells simply do not belong on the spirits. AOE attacks were removed for Balance, but someone should have removed debuffs for utility. I don't think there has ever been a time I wanted a debuff spell. I can actually sub WHM if I need those spells, and fight something weak. If I fight something strong, I wouldn't be using a spirit. And if it is really strong, I'd be in a party and have it covered already.

6. Weak. Tier 4 nukes from spirits tend to do roughly 600 damage. Pretty poor damage for the best damage a spirit can muster.

So if you pass the problem of 1+2, and a spell is cast, you'll suffer from 3+4+5 and have it take a long time and be a useless spell. When you are super lucky, you'll get to face problem 6, which means you did damage, but rather low damage.

Proposed solutions

1. Obviously, do NOT reset timers on assault. This prevents problem 1+2. You can summon a spirit, wait a few seconds to ready the spell, then assault and have it cast instantly.

2. Faster/Split timers. Either make spirits cast very often, so that getting pointless spells isn't as big of a deal, or make them have multiple timers, one for debuffs, one for nukes, one for healing, one for buffing.


The roles of avatars and spirits

They need two different roles, or people will just ignore the one that doesn't fill the same role the best.

I've always liked the idea that avatars should be your main boss combat pet, while spirits should be more for dealing with many underlings.

Example: Spirits should attack often and for a decent amount on weak monsters, but less damage on strong monsters. Avatars should do high damage on strong monsters, but be a worse alternative for killing many weak monsters.

Or in other words. Spirits = Exp/salvage/limbus/dynamis/etc, Avatars = salvage boss/dynamis boss/HNM. I think that would be an ideal situation for using multiple pets strategically. Of course nothing prevents you from using avatars in Exp or so, it is just the whole thing about monsters perhaps dying faster than one per 45 seconds.


Thank you for reading, and please pass it along to the development team. I'm sure they still don't know the timer resets on ASSAULT. I mean it is half the reason nobody uses spirits, so it would be the first thing to change if they wanted to change anything spirit related.

[Malamasala]

MAB and ATTK merits is a must for any summoner worth their salt.

ATK doesn't help BP:Rages. It has been tested and confirmed ages ago. I never understand why people insist on boosting their pet melee attack rounds, because that is all it does.

Unless SE sometime the last year noticed they had a bug in their Summoner code and changed it. I haven't kept as much track of the facts during 2011 as before that.

[Dekusuta]

ATK doesn't help BP:Rages. It has been tested and confirmed ages ago. I never understand why people insist on boosting their pet melee attack rounds, because that is all it does.

Unless SE sometime the last year noticed they had a bug in their Summoner code and changed it. I haven't kept as much track of the facts during 2011 as before that.

Where are the test results?

[Aequis]

I have another suggestion for SMN as well that hasn't been addressed: Have us commanding our pets to Assault NOT break Invisible. BST's ability Sic doesn't break Invisible and if you go into lore they would have to point and say what to attack, so Sic should break Sneak AND Invisible.

SMN's ability Assault is done telepathically: I.E. There's no need to verbal or visual aid(which the monsters BSTs control would require) for the Avatars, seeing as their minds are linked with ours.

"Sic" and "Fight" are different things. The only job ability we BST get that doesn't break invisible is "Fight", which is the command to set a pet onto a monster. Heel, Sic / Ready, Spur and Run Wild etc. all break invisible.

You could turn it around and say, SMN pets will defend their masters automatically whereas BST pets need to be commanded to do anything. I honestly don't think that if this were given to us as SMNs it would change our job a great deal, and we certainly need to be asking for more needed changes.

It's almost as if each pet job has its little quirks and that one belongs to BST. I still get annoyed at the Retreat glitch on SMN, and that's been in the game a very long time. :/

[Sargent]

Where are the test results?

This I want to see. The only testing I've seen relating to Avatar attack concluded that gear did not enhance melee attack rounds in any way, only Blood Pacts. Eyeballing it myself, there is no increase in melee damage when you stack Attack gear, but Blood Pact damage goes up.

[Saiken253]

@Aequis

Sorry for the confusion, bst is one of the 2 jobs that I haven't bothered to even look up. I know of only a few abilities and from training my dogs, Sic seemed more of the logical choice of naming what they would have gone with for their version of our Assault.

I still think it's backwards :<

[Aequis]

No worries. Would be easier if they kept the names the same across pet jobs, but that's SE for you. Heh.

Shouldn't be too hard to test whether pet attack affects BP or melée damage. Just go into Abyssea and put raw +att atma on. Stronghold (+40), Stout Arm (+40, this has +STR too), Baying Moon (+30), Smouldering Sky, Lone Wolf, Raised Tail, Sundering Slash and Entwined all have pure +attack.

I merited physical att/physical acc, but this was what...six years or so ago? Haven't bothered to change it as I've used SMN so rarely since recently when I've started doing Voidwatch. I will change it when I have enough free merits to do so, but then will probably only change phys acc to magic att.

[Sargent]

Even if Avatar Attack merits only affect melee swings (and since this is not the case for gear, I don't see why they would), I'd still choose Avatar Attack over lolSpirit MP Cost/Acc, because it would still deal more damage over time then any of the other options.

[Dekusuta]

Makes 0 sense for avatar attack merits to not work with BP; but I'm more than certain gear works.

Mujin Obi;Sac torque; Karura all had strong anecdotal evidence to suggest they modify bp damage. Granted BP damage formulae differ from avatar to avatar so its difficult to get a consistent count.

[Malamasala]

Where are the test results?

Had to go back in time and look around a bit.

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/#item5510


The implications of these 13 results are startling. Avatars have a ton of attack. But that's not all. This puts into perspective several augments. Pet:Attack+5 only adds ~1% to your attack, a hardly worthy amount. Furthermore, Attack+15 is just 3%. Do not this excludes 'Enhances Avatar Attack' gear, since this only works on Blood Pacts and needs more testing to quantify. Also, this means that you needn't worry about capping attack on harder level monsters, with caps of 3+, you'd need 999+ attack (most likely not possible due to caps on attack value?) to cap on any monster with over 333 DEF. This also means the merits in Avatar Physical Attack are completely and utterly worthless. With 5 merits you'd have Attack+10, equivalent to 2% increase in attack. This also means that DEF is very important for ratio.

As we see I remembered it slightly wrong. No melee attack effects, and extremely little effects on pacts. Probably just my brain that translated it into no effect since it was so trivially small.


If you wish to increase your damage with avatars, it's far better to lower the monster's defence than it is to raise your avatar's attack.

[Dekusuta]

Had to go back in time and look around a bit.

http://kegsay.livejournal.com/#item5510


As we see I remembered it slightly wrong. No melee attack effects, and extremely little effects on pacts. Probably just my brain that translated it into no effect since it was so trivially small.


Right you misrepresented/remembered incorrectly the findings.

That's significantly different from your assertion that Attack merits has no effect. As the tests clearly show they do. Also with Attack gear like the trial staff, You're looking at +35 attack; that's not including enhance avatar attack gear.

Most melees spends millions for +~6% attack output. But a SMN with full +attk gear is going to be putting out significantly more +attk.

[Saiken253]

but it is, still, not a very remarkable increase... increase the formulas/flooring/ceiling on our BPs to be at least x2.5 if we are going to have to suffer through 45sec fastest that we can use our BPs(personally, i think x5 damage is reasonable... again look at any DD and what they can do in 45sec)

[Fyreus]

"Sic" and "Fight" are different things. The only job ability we BST get that doesn't break invisible is "Fight", which is the command to set a pet onto a monster. Heel, Sic / Ready, Spur and Run Wild etc. all break invisible.

You could turn it around and say, SMN pets will defend their masters automatically whereas BST pets need to be commanded to do anything. I honestly don't think that if this were given to us as SMNs it would change our job a great deal, and we certainly need to be asking for more needed changes.

It's almost as if each pet job has its little quirks and that one belongs to BST. I still get annoyed at the Retreat glitch on SMN, and that's been in the game a very long time. :/

When the VE/CE enmity values came out i began to think about it: What if it's put in place to reduce the enmity from an action we took in range? While that's possible, i do feel that they could negate that possibility by.. idk.. making pets HIT mobs we are running away from. Seriously, how many times has fenrir and friends missed the first 1~5 hits only to allow a mob to get his mitts on you? Can't count? Neither can I.

They should address avatar hp while they are at it.

Lastly Dekutsu you are missing the point here. Melee can spend millions on gear and attack because they can reach a higher fSTR than avatars can. The biggest limiting factor on avatar damage is that they are black mages (thanks mellowy for reposting what i assume we all should have researched lol) and the base str is pretty bad and there is no way to add +stats outside abyssea atm. This is why i'd like them to add summoner's gear stats to pets.

Imagine a blm with a scythe going into abyssea with only +50str, mediocre attack, and wanting to gain 1% more damage or attack. The other thing is that pets have something else going on in the background that allows them to sometimes do decent damage on some mobs in a summoners level range.

[Meyi]

I have 4 merits left in spirit perp costs. It all gets down to the fundamental stat of SMN: mp. Let's
see what they do to the spirits themselves, then determine the value. Less cost = better gear choice.

I have free Spirits... without the spirit perpeptuation merits. And without Avatar's Favor (if that even works on them).

This is worthless.

Edit: Finished reading the rest of the topic. It's still worthless. I'd much rather see other things be worked on than this merit.

[Sargent]

but it is, still, not a very remarkable increase... increase the formulas/flooring/ceiling on our BPs to be at least x2.5 if we are going to have to suffer through 45sec fastest that we can use our BPs(personally, i think x5 damage is reasonable... again look at any DD and what they can do in 45sec)

Personally, I would rather see them increase the amount in which Avatar/Pet: Attack gear/merits add rather then an overall boost in damage. It would make it even more worthwhile to invest in the gear for it

[Dallas]

I have free Spirits... without the spirit perpeptuation merits. .
The best damage gear does not have -perp on it. The best damage staves do not have -perp on them. If free spirits are important to you, you could be a better summoner with these merits. Simply having free spirits does not make you a great SMN.

[Tannlore]

They should address avatar hp while they are at it.

This!

I would have loved merits that increase the base stats/HP/PDT or something else on my avatars. I suppose this is better than nothing, at least they aren't taking a slam hammer to us in the name of "Balance"

Overall it's meh, but I think Camate did state that this is just one of many changes to come. So I'm reserving full judgement on it until I see what else is coming.

[Tinuviel]

From this thread, it appears that people dont care about what SE is proposing and asking feedback on, in regard to elementals. Basically what we're saying is: "OK, reduce elemental MP cost... but why should we care? What are you doing to make elementals useful?" The question of how to make elementals useful is what SE should be asking feedback on and giving us details about.

This would be an intelligent approach to game development for obsolete content:
1. Update a specific content so that it is useful/interesting
2. Observe the new activity in this content that is generated by the updates
3. Modify content so that its balanced and appropriately accessible

In regard to SMN's elementals, we're at step #1!!!! SE's news release falls into step #3.

Here is what I propose for elementals: To improve usage of elementals, I propose the JA "Elemental's Favor". When favor is up, you should be able to switch between offensive and defensive modes (pet commands rage/ward, to initiate mode). In defensive mode, perhaps elemental gives a +MDB aura specific to its element? Perhaps if SMN has high enough skill potency is increased... and maybe new gear will enhance the effect? (like, you're in VW and the NM casts aeroja... and the wind elemental has 5% chance to nullify the spell on party members within 15' of it, otherwise just 5-50+MDB based on skill). Offensive mode aura... perhaps it could be an aura that impacts monsters in area of effect, such as imposes mag.eva/mag.def down effect specific to its element?

[Rakshaka]

Here's a fun idea:

Replace the merit in question to the following:
Elemental Detonation: a targeted offensive ability that deals aoe magic damage and sacrifices your current elemental. The element of the magic damage would be the element of your elemental. (5 min recast, additional merits increase the MAB of the ability)

This would give us something to do with our elementals, and it would help increase our currently lacking damage output.

[Babekeke]

Here's a fun idea:

Replace the merit in question to the following:
Elemental Detonation: a targeted offensive ability that deals aoe magic damage and sacrifices your current elemental. The element of the magic damage would be the element of your elemental. (5 min recast, additional merits increase the MAB of the ability)

This would give us something to do with our elementals, and it would help increase our currently lacking damage output.

Sounds kind of like a 5 min astral flow to me though >.>

[Saiken253]

Sounds kind of like a 5 min astral flow to me though >.>

Sams have 2 mini Meikyo Shisui's, same with RDM having an instant cast 1 spell JA. Why not? :3


Personally, I would rather see them increase the amount in which Avatar/Pet: Attack gear/merits add rather then an overall boost in damage. It would make it even more worthwhile to invest in the gear for it

damage boost > atk boost, usually anyways. :< and our pet's DoT will not improve much unless they are given a lot of necessary traits(like DA/TA, some native Attack Bonus(maybe something scaling with Summoning Magic AS IT SHOULD! Because regarless of me saying damage boost > atk boost, attack is still very important), acc/macc bonus, more matk, Crit atk bonus, native magic crit, and just so much more).


The best damage gear does not have -perp on it. The best damage staves do not have -perp on them. If free spirits are important to you, you could be a better summoner with these merits. Simply having free spirits does not make you a great SMN.

Gear swap so you can have all of it? >.>

[Dallas]

Both SMN magic and perp gear should be full time for spirits. If you think you have a great spirit build, you are probably alone.

[Malamasala]

Right you misrepresented/remembered incorrectly the findings.

That's significantly different from your assertion that Attack merits has no effect. As the tests clearly show they do. Also with Attack gear like the trial staff, You're looking at +35 attack; that's not including enhance avatar attack gear.

Most melees spends millions for +~6% attack output. But a SMN with full +attk gear is going to be putting out significantly more +attk.

Doesn't change the fact that the damage increase on anything difficult is too small to be worth it. If I have the attack gear, I'd equip it of course. But I wouldn't merit or hunt for gear that does so little difference. You'd do far more damage if you melee on SMN and use Garlands Bliss, than if you go full avatar attack. (It could be more efficient to just Dia II the mob though, I have no track on how the WS and spell compare)

[nitsuj]

Got some information from the development team that they would like to hear feedback on.

Regarding “reduced elemental MP cost,” we decided to implement this given that we’re planning on adjusting elementals in the future, as we mentioned previously.

At first, we were considering changing “reduced elemental MP cost” to a totally different effect, “reduced summoning casting time,” so the possibility exists that we change it to this.

However, please note that we wouldn’t use “reduced elemental MP cost” if we switch to “reduced summoning casting time” and that we will need some time to implement this change.

Please let us know your feedback on this.

Leave elemental perp cost as a merit, make them actually worth using... Then add a T3 Merit category that includes things like "Reduced Summoning Cast Time".

[Dekusuta]

Doesn't change the fact that the damage increase on anything difficult is too small to be worth it. If I have the attack gear, I'd equip it of course. But I wouldn't merit or hunt for gear that does so little difference. You'd do far more damage if you melee on SMN and use Garlands Bliss, than if you go full avatar attack. (It could be more efficient to just Dia II the mob though, I have no track on how the WS and spell compare)

Garland of Bliss is not a reliable alternative for def down half of the high def mobs that require it would be too dangerous. Dia would be your best bet but that's assuming no one in your party is spamming bio.

I'd take attack any day, because its always on.

[Rakshaka]

My bad. I forgot that tier 1 merits don't include additional job abilities; that's for T2 merits. So, I'm scrapping the Elemental Detonation idea.

How about this:
Elemental Skill Increase: Boosts all magic skill levels of all elemental spirits by X per merit.

One of the core issues with the poor performance of elemental spirits is their lack of magic skill. I was told at one point that the spirits have as much elemental magic skill as a naked black mage of their own level. This would pose a serious issue when trying to land (accurately) any magic attack on a high level target. So, here's a solution, boost all of the magic skills for all elementals by a certain amount per merit. This would help nukes land, enfeebles stick, and the potency of cure spells by light spirit.

Think about it!

[Babekeke]

Doesn't change the fact that the damage increase on anything difficult is too small to be worth it. If I have the attack gear, I'd equip it of course. But I wouldn't merit or hunt for gear that does so little difference. You'd do far more damage if you melee on SMN and use Garlands Bliss, than if you go full avatar attack. (It could be more efficient to just Dia II the mob though, I have no track on how the WS and spell compare)

For a melee SMN, you don't know much about melee SMN. Shell Crusher is twice as effective for def down as garland of bliss. Shell crusher = 25% def down for 60-270 seconds. GoB 12.5% def down for 60-120 seconds. And if you're fighting something worthwhile, you might as well get the WAR to use Armour Break if it's that important as they won't be getting 1-shotted :)

[Aequis]

The biggest limiting factor on avatar damage is that they are black mages (thanks mellowy for reposting what i assume we all should have researched lol) and the base str is pretty bad and there is no way to add +stats outside abyssea atm. This is why i'd like them to add summoner's gear stats to pets.

This is true, and also the fact that they have no sub job somewhat also negates the natural -PDT avatars have. They're going to have lower VIT, AGI, DEX, HP etc. due to no sub and the fact that they are Black mages. It used to be the same with older jug pets like Carrie. They were weaker than charmed pets of the same level, so they weren't reliable to use for much outside of farming EPs.

I suspect avatars were made Black mages as a purely balancing measure to begin with. Making them anything else could have proved problematic in that they'd have "side effects" like Double Attack, Store TP, Killer Effects etc. They need rebalancing again in my opinion.

[Byrth]

Avatars are not cleanly any one job. They have some Black Mage job traits (like MAB) at the same level as Black Mage, but they also get things like Critical Attack Bonus I/II and, I believe, a different tier system for MB Bonus than BLM.

Overall, SE's largest disservice to Summoner is how weak all of its Avatar gear is. The difference between a summoner with equipment you could acquire in a day with little effort and a perfect summoner with over 400mil in equipment is about 10~12% (Phys) or 30~40% (Mag) damage on an attack that only happens once every 45 seconds.

If there was powerful/useful Summoner gear in the game that was difficult to obtain, SE wouldn't have to worry about a bunch of scrubs Abyssea-leveling summoner and then SMN burning everything. The job would have a use for those who invested enough effort into it but it wouldn't be very useful for those who didn't, just like every other job.

For instance:
Summoner Hat - Refresh +2, Avatar: Haste+10%, STR+20
Summoner Body - Perp -5, Avatar: STR+50, Attack+50
Summoner Hands - Avatar: Haste+10%, Attack+20
Summoner Legs - Perp -1, Avatar: Store TP+30, STR+20
Summoner Feet - Perp -3, Avatar: Haste+5%, Critical Hit Rate+10%

"OH MAN THOSE LOOK RIDICULOUS!!" Okay, but every melee subs another DD job, gets 16 slots to improve themselves with, and gets merits. Do 90 STR, 70 Atk, 30 STP, 25% Haste, and +10% Critical Hit rate really improve an avatar's performance nearly as much as equipment/merits/subjob improves a melee's? No. Even this extreme example falls far short of that.

[Draylo]

Play previous FF games, then play this one and wonder what happened to the powerhouse SMN was!

[Divinechild]

Play previous FF games, then play this one and wonder what happened to the powerhouse SMN was!

Thank you.
Finally someone else said it.

FF 7 had "Knights of the round" 12 Summons each doing 9999 on a mob or group of mobs in a single attack.
FF 8 had good GFs
FF 9 had a major part of the story having to do with the second main char's mother taking her summons from her, atomos & bahamut i believe. disc 1 and disc 2.
FF 10/10-2 was all about helping Yuna get the summons to defeat the creature plaguing the land. capable of doing 99999 damage ( just saying...)
FF 12 great game, great Espers. Espers Lent the princess their powers to help her get back her throne.
FF 13 not so great game, but still kick ass Eidolons

FF 11 .... Even Kingdom Hearts that Disney/SE team up game has a better summoner class than 11. Dumbo i Summon you.

All the Numbered Final Fantasy Games smn has always has a major part of the game and story line. Any fan of the Series would know this. FFXI is a numbered final fantasy game, smn shouldn't be last place in the job ranking. Where's the balance they are always talking about. If there was indeed balance all jobs would be somewhat equal.
I forgot to mention final fantasy 6 that featured a half human half esper(avatar).
If you read up final fantasy you would find the series is famous for Storyline, Visuals(for the time its released), gameplay, Battle system, and summons.
Any comparison to other games is meant to show how vastly different summoners are being treated in this game.

HELL, FF 14 doesn't even have smn job(atleast not yet i hope) and it already Have a Ifrit battle.

[Divinechild]

And I do Sincerely apologize if that comment seemed overly harsh but,
I wouldn't redact it.

[Malamasala]

Play previous FF games, then play this one and wonder what happened to the powerhouse SMN was!

It doesn't need to be a powerhouse. It just needs to be decent. The job is BARELY as active as a WAR job without abilities. You engage, wait on timer, BP, repeat. It really would have needed all that fun stuff from FFX. Defend, Cast spells, etc. so that you had an active role.

While I'm not in favor of making each avatar a job, since it would just mean we all only play the SAM or BLM avatar, I do think they really needed a set of abilities on their own not on global timers.


For a melee SMN, you don't know much about melee SMN. Shell Crusher is twice as effective for def down as garland of bliss. Shell crusher = 25% def down for 60-270 seconds. GoB 12.5% def down for 60-120 seconds.

I actually don't really try and lower defense with melee at all. Either I fight something so weak I don't have to, or it is big and nasty and I don't want to melee much at all.

[Xaven]

0/5 merits in Spirits, Why would i waste merits in that when i can apply them in my Phy dmg acc mag acc and dmg that i have done so already.

[Divinechild]

Having to explain why smn should be improved or play a more integral role in game play mechanics to anyone that claims to like smn or be a smn is mind boggling.

[Saiken253]

While I'm not in favor of making each avatar a job, since it would just mean we all only play the SAM or BLM avatar, I do think they really needed a set of abilities on their own not on global timers.


I want more traits for each avatar, basic ones would be fine like: DA/TA, Attack Bonus, maybe Martial Arts?(they all do smack with their Hand-to-hand damage), More MAB? Crit Bonus? Auto-enspell damage?(though what would happen to the 2 that already exist, same goes with Auto-spikes and what would happen to the ones that already exist, but i'm personally fine with no auto-spikes because there's only ice/fire/shock spikes; but could make interesting ones like dispel spikes and the like). Make something interesting for each one.

Lastly, and probably the biggest thing that would improve SMN, is individual CDs on our BPs. It's entirely possible, and it would bring SMN closer to the other jobs than where it currently stands(no, it would not make SMN overpowered, it would actually make it comparable to the other jobs) because we also have to manage our MP just like BLMs and BLUs do. They can spam a lot of spells(especially BLU) in a much shorter time-frame that SMN can and deal far superior damage, but their MP would drain just as fast. SMN would then be in a similar situation, but we really only have 3 BPs each pet that can deal any respectable amount of damage(T4 nuke, lvl70 BP, and Merit BP).

[Saiken253]

I just had an interesting idea.

What if we could have a JA that would use our pet's TP to do either 1 or both of:

Give the next Physical BP Extra Damage based on TP used

and/or

Give the next Physical BP skillchain properties

if it were both, it would be similar to BLU's Chain Affinity. Thoughts?

[Toukai]

I actually wouldn't mind giving each avatar specific job types. Like, make Garuda a thf, trip attack traits, TH II (at least), evasion bonuses, and maybe an en-aero effect to boost her melee. Make Ifrit a warrior, with berserk like Ward pact, DA, and let his DA effect phys blood pacts. Levi a Whm/Rdm with more enfeebles, slowga and maybe, paralyga? I don't know, would offer more diversity and be useful for diff situations. Make shiva a blm and give her more M.atk i guess, sleepga and ice spikes more effective. And a little more control in the avatars actions so we don't just stand there and look pretty while we wait for a blood pact timer.

I like to melee on my smn (when i solo mainly, sadly my smn doesn't get much use these days) and pretty much all of the avatars feel kind of samey. If im soloing in aby for the giggles, either Ramuh or Garuda for the crit hit ws's, if im using a m.atk set, I use shiva for heavenly strike.

[Saiken253]

That was my thinking as well. Could model them after the primes. Hell, I wouldn't mind doing a lvl99 SMN quest(further expanding the already huge SMN story) to unlock the "full potential" of our avatars : basically drawing further power from the avatars and making them behave like their primes. This could also be a way to give them Job-likenesses and a new powerful BP. I wouldn't even mind it if to unlock each pet's full potential that you would have to do it individually for each one.

[Fyreus]

This is true, and also the fact that they have no sub job somewhat also negates the natural -PDT avatars have. They're going to have lower VIT, AGI, DEX, HP etc. due to no sub and the fact that they are Black mages. It used to be the same with older jug pets like Carrie. They were weaker than charmed pets of the same level, so they weren't reliable to use for much outside of farming EPs.

I suspect avatars were made Black mages as a purely balancing measure to begin with. Making them anything else could have proved problematic in that they'd have "side effects" like Double Attack, Store TP, Killer Effects etc. They need rebalancing again in my opinion.

The natural -pdt is a strange thing... even though they say that, the fact that my blu/drk can wear far less -pdt and slap on a few hundred def and survive better makes me wonder if they knew what they were doing giving a half the stats needed to do a job especially since CC was made around the same era. Before the 2 traits were put in place avatars would still take huge damage on mobs that were our level or higher even by a few levels which was lame.

Also, giving avatars extra stats/traits isn't problematic as they already gave carbuncle traits since RoZ and there are gears designed that give them stats/traits. If they would split avatars into different types and go back and do what they said they'd do during Toah (iirc they were planning on making more physical or non magical type avatars but trolled us with 2hour avatars) then there wouldn't be too much to complain about

[Divinechild]

The situations that call for Smn don't call for it meleeing. Nobody cares what you do in free time or on fodder mobs.

I laughed my ass off when i saw this. Sounds like smn is such a last rate job at this point(in terms of Dev attention that is), that you use it for a hand full of fights and then throw in the back of a trunk somewhere.

No offense Neisan i just thought it was hella funny.

[Dallas]

This guy apparently plays SMN once a month for a single fight. I have always believed that "sitting around scratching themselves" is the reason SMN got such a bad rep. Neisan has had the itch for a decade.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well, show me where Smn would be brought around for fights that don't ask for either EA/PD, or hateless damage, because that's what Smn excels in.

Old content? Don't need Smn except for EA/PD.
Abyssea? Nope.
VW? Procs/EA.
Dynamis? Nope (bar ADL fight for PD)
Both Nyzuls? Nope.
WoE? Yes (event is pretty much dead on my server, that should tell you something).

I leave anything out?

[Dallas]

You excel at one BP/release and one 2hr/release? You are someone's mule. You have to be, because you can't possibly wasted 5 years of your life calling yourself a SMN. The only thing you "excel in" requires neither gear nor actually sitting in front of the computer.

3 line macro: 2hr > wait > Alexander
5 line macro: Titan > wait > EA > wait > release

What you do, even when it matters, still doesn't matter. Learn the role of a hybrid job.

[Babekeke]

Well, show me where Smn would be brought around for fights that don't ask for either EA/PD, or hateless damage, because that's what Smn excels in.


You excel at one BP/release and one 2hr/release?

Way to read a post...

[Starry]

I laughed my ass off when i saw this. Sounds like smn is such a last rate job at this point(in terms of Dev attention that is), that you use it for a hand full of fights and then throw in the back of a trunk somewhere.

No offense Neisan i just thought it was hella funny.

Umm...that's pretty much every job though. Think SMN is in a bad place right now, what about PLD? Or even thief for that matter(thanks proc system / abyssea / vw). Or PUP - when did pup ever get a chance to be 'wanted'. Be happy SMN has /some/ use - unlike quite a few other classes.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You excel at one BP/release and one 2hr/release? You are someone's mule. You have to be, because you can't possibly wasted 5 years of your life calling yourself a SMN. The only thing you "excel in" requires neither gear nor actually sitting in front of the computer.

3 line macro: 2hr > wait > Alexander
5 line macro: Titan > wait > EA > wait > release

What you do, even when it matters, still doesn't matter. Learn the role of a hybrid job.

If you were using Smn for anything else, you were probably better off on another job.
If you want to call a job a hybrid, you're looking for Blu or Dnc.
If you were using Smn in a support role and not using either EA/PD, you might as well be on Brd or Cor.

[Mahoro]

If you were using Smn for anything else, you were probably better off on another job.
If you want to call a job a hybrid, you're looking for Blu or Dnc.
If you were using Smn in a support role and not using either EA/PD, you might as well be on Brd or Cor.

Assuming those SMN have BRD or COR.

Buffs aren't all PD/EA too, not sure how you play SMN. 6 minute Hastega and a potent ATT down, EVA down for fights like VW Beetle, and an extra Stun arent useless.

Anyway three of the six events you listed above give a role to SMN, and you can add Legion to that list so its 4/7. The job certainly needs improvements but it is certainly in no more dire a situation than PLD, THF, PUP etc.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Any mage and even brd/rdm can toss out haste, MP savings isn't an issue. If it was, Rdm wouldn't be in the state is was now (ignoring enfeebling being useless).

If you need attack down to keep your dds alive I don't know what to say.

People aren't clamoring to invite Smn for a single extra stun.

[Mahoro]

Any mage and even brd/rdm can toss out haste, MP savings isn't an issue. If it was, Rdm wouldn't be in the state is was now (ignoring enfeebling being useless).

If you need attack down to keep your dds alive I don't know what to say.

People aren't clamoring to invite Smn for a single extra stun.

Where did i say Hastega, Attack down, or a
single extra Stun was indispensable or needed to keep DD alive? I was listing ways in which SMN is useful beyond situations where they are brought for procs, PD/EA or hateless damage anyway. If you (and by this I mean the global you) want to sit around with your thumb up your ass after popping one of the unique SMN moves, that is your prerogative. However, it won't endear anyone to you and probably contributes further to the job's stigma.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then why else would you bring Smn? are you saying the people who leveled smn only have that as their one job then? I'm not saying that is all a smn can do, but when you compare it to other support jobs or hybrids Smn does not bring enough to the table to warrant it a slot in most events.

But yes I do agree at least Smn isn't in such a bad position it doesn't have a role at all outside of VW, which is the sitaution pup etc. are in.

[Mahoro]

I'm simply saying that in many of the events you listed in which a SMN is already brought for unique SMN moves (most especially VW, ADL, AV, WoE, and upcoming Legion), a good SMN should prove his or her utility with more than just the unique moves. SMN more than earns its spot in half or more of the events people do these days.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I really can't count WoE because of how dead it is, but that's just me. I recognize you do ADL runs, outside of him and perhaps the Arch Diabolos you wouldn't really bring Smn to dynamis (could just bring a mule if you're like markovchan). VW I'm really split on. PD isn't used and EA is only used while temps are down, but typically they're refreshed quickly from procs in a good group, so its usefulness goes down. 1 Smn is usually all that's taken, and just for procing. It can do fair damage, but is easily surpassed in support and damage by other jobs - pre nerf to Miser's Anyway, I can't say for after.

[Mahoro]

WoE isn't dead for good linkshells. With the update this week and the new spammability, it is certainly premature to consider it dead. Some of the gear is quite good, and other pieces are bought by rich JPs for niche purposes where the supply is so small that you can get away charging high prices. I agree SMN isn't that useful in non-Arch boss Dynamis play. Most VW shouts ask for one SMN, certainly the job is looked more favorably than other jobs with unique procs such as BST or PUP.

[Dallas]

Assuming those SMN have BRD or COR.

Buffs aren't all PD/EA too, not sure how you play SMN. 6 minute Hastega and a potent ATT down, EVA down for fights like VW Beetle, and an extra Stun arent useless.

Anyway three of the six events you listed above give a role to SMN, and you can add Legion to that list so its 4/7. The job certainly needs improvements but it is certainly in no more dire a situation than PLD, THF, PUP etc.

You have proposed utility beyond the once-every-two-hours-for-a-single-fight "role." Your definition has utility in 7/7, throughout the entire event. At a bare minimum, Neisan should have to defend why he isn't providing Haste every 5 minutes instead of being just the "proc lump."

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because Smn is the only job with haste/all the Smn does is proc/EA... oh wait no this isn't the case, it's pretty clear you didn't read anything again.

[Babekeke]

I really can't count WoE because of how dead it is, but that's just me.

Have you looked in WoE over the weekend during JP prime time? With enough for 2 full fluxes on Phoenix server I'd be shocked to find that Quetzacotl can't even get enough people together (2-3 smn) to do a flux like #3 which hyas some very highly priced drops. (and they should cost even more if noone on your server does WoE)

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'll check next week, if they are doing it they're keeping most of the drops for themselves. Windbuffet Belt seems to drop fairly often, the others are fairly rare, and flux 15 either is not done, or the mittens drop as often as VW bodies.

Going by AH sales I would say Fluxes 12 and 13 are being cleared, but 14 and 15 are very rarely done.

[Karbuncle]

Because Smn is the only job with haste/all the Smn does is proc/EA... oh wait no this isn't the case, it's pretty clear you didn't read anything again.

That honestly just sounds like a lazy excuse no matter how you spin it. Just because others can shouldn't mean you don't Neisan!

I know Dallas' Reputation in here, But I rarely come across such a close minded group of people. I mean, Your guys entire argument against Dallas is probably based on the idea you hate him, cause your arguments are paper thin...

"I don't haste cause others do"
"I don't do XXX cause society tells me not too"

Its dumb. Just because Dallas reputation is not that great doesn't man his words are rooted in some truth. Say for instance, When I'm in Voidwatch on SMN, I use my Ascetics and Dusty wing whenever i get them, run in, and pop a Cataclysm in my full MAB Gear, I can do up to 1.3k or higher.

Compared to other DD, its pretty weak damn weak, But it contributes to killing the enemy quicker, and It gives me shit to do, I have a Fanatic's, Why shouldn't I beat the mobs ass? Even if My staff is doing 40-50 damage a hit, Its still killing the enemy quicker, and contributing to the over-all dispatching of the Enemy.

Nothing is written or said that you can't still gear swap to BP Delay or BP:Damage While meleeing, right? The only thing of consequence would be your staff. Still, With all the MP Healing items you get, Perpetuation cost is nothing to worry about, and as far as say, PET:MAB Staves go, Your melee DPS and WS Damage over the course of the 45 seconds you wait for BP to come back up would outweigh what, 12 MAB?

Just because the idea of Melee SMN is something shunned and frowned upon doesn't mean its not a reasonable course of Action. Look at it this way.

You're invited to VW To proc - You have 45 Seconds between BP's. What do you do in the mean time? Correct answer is twofold, Buff your team in any way you can, and dish out some damage in the mean time. You have Stalwarts for your Melee, Ascetics for your WS, and Fanatic's Drink to keep you alive.

The only mob I'd truly never melee on SMN in voidwatch is Botulus Rex, Even with a Fanatic's, fudge that guy.

I should note, the above doesn't apply to every event, Nor do i think chosing a SMN over xxx is a good idea. As was my argument when this whole SMN melee debacle first came up, If you're invited to an Event on SMN, and you can melee without putting yourself in Danger (AoE's, Especially silence), you should. You're not hurting anyone, and you're contributing to the dispatching of the Enemy in a meaningful way.

This game is built in this funny way where you can Melee, and Cure, and -na all at the same time, While still maintaining an Avatar. It doesn't work in every event, and obviously its situational, and it will never ever compare to a real DD's potential, but as I say, Its better than sitting on your ass.

The real reason everyone is so adamantly against SMN melee is simply because that stigma comes from an Era in FFXI's history basically equivalent to cave-man Logic. "me no like. you no melee.", back then, TP Moves could often spell danger for groups, So SMN melee was needless extra TP, that and SMNs would die easily, or get silenced, etc, need to be out of range, They had very little acc/atk/haste gear, etc.

Today, You should be carrying Echoes, In Voidwach you get access to Fanatic's, Stalwarts to buff your low Rating, etc.

*sigh* I'm rambling here, but to clear this up, What I'm saying is, I don't condone the idea of MELEE ALL THE THINGS on SMN, but "Smn melee" stigma is from the stupid ages, Today, especially in voidwatch where you can obtain Physical Immunity on a regular basis, The idea of SMN sitting in the background acting as a third-rate Gimp healer is an outdated idea.

SMN Is a broken flawed job, but you make the best of what you got.

And for the record, I'd like to say - I didn't really read all of the debate, I just saw Dallas and assumed it was about SMN melee and maintainning MP or something.

Edit: I Should mention, SMN Can obtain 25% Haste:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/206905
So with Garuda and /SAM, they're one of the few jobs than can get a solo 50% Haste. Which is a fun thought for when you solo :)

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, not saying you shouldn't do it, only that you (in general) can't think of it as something unique. Outside of the events/scenarios listed I have a hard time justifying bringing a Smn, that is what I mean to say. It's not as in a bad position as say pup/drg/bst, but it still requires more work on the BP system before I can see Smn being a viable job for more events/situations.

[Karbuncle]

No, not saying you shouldn't do it, only that you (in general) can't think of it as something unique. Outside of the events/scenarios listed I have a hard time justifying bringing a Smn, that is what I mean to say. It's not as in a bad position as say pup/drg/bst, but it still requires more work on the BP system before I can see Smn being a viable job for more events/situations.

Then i can more than agree.

SMN needs a huge overhaul, SE designed the job from a lv 75 2005 stand point, In todays FFXI, its such a horrible job that its almost in itself a fundamentally useless job. The only time its used anymore is in WoE where the mass amount of Disposable allies (Avatars) is actually useful.

If they reworked Avatar Damage like they did with Jug Pets, It would fix SMN. Avatar Melee as is is something akin to a Damage of a Dagger and Delay of an Axe, Its abysmal. It needs to be completely redesigned.

That, and removing the BP Delay Timer would be nice. :)

[Babekeke]

Edit: I Should mention, SMN Can obtain 25% Haste:
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/206905
So with Garuda and /SAM, they're one of the few jobs than can get a solo 50% Haste. Which is a fun thought for when you solo :)

This is quite interesting. I have some suggestions though (mainly removing a couple of harder-to-get items, and also bringing it down to 8-hit instead of 9-hit):

Items that not everyone will be able to get hold of (not counting VW items: they're 'easy' to get, minus the luck factor);
Hvergelmir and Ninurta's Sash.
Replace these with Celeritas Pole and Goading Belt. Now get rid of Hasty Pinion. That -5STP is worse than the 1% haste that you get from it (though not in your setup, as you need to swap out a few other pieces to get 8-hit). There aren't many other good pieces for ammo slot for TPing, so maybe go for a MAB one for the WS. For the Neck piece, you could go for Ancient Torque perhaps, but then you would need to WS in 3 STP. Maintaining this neck would allow you to WS in full MAB.

Anyway I seem to be de-railing this thread, sorry about that.

[Karbuncle]

This is quite interesting. I have some suggestions though (mainly removing a couple of harder-to-get items, and also bringing it down to 8-hit instead of 9-hit):

Items that not everyone will be able to get hold of (not counting VW items: they're 'easy' to get, minus the luck factor);
Hvergelmir and Ninurta's Sash.
Replace these with Celeritas Pole and Goading Belt. Now get rid of Hasty Pinion. That -5STP is worse than the 1% haste that you get from it (though not in your setup, as you need to swap out a few other pieces to get 8-hit). There aren't many other good pieces for ammo slot for TPing, so maybe go for a MAB one for the WS. For the Neck piece, you could go for Ancient Torque perhaps, but then you would need to WS in 3 STP. Maintaining this neck would allow you to WS in full MAB.

Anyway I seem to be de-railing this thread, sorry about that.

Wasn't going strongly for a efficiency in that moment :P I just threw together what gear i knew SMN Could wear that was melee. I missed the Neck.

That said, You can change ammo without losing TP, so i guess something like... White Tathlum for TP. would be good (Store TP +2).

[Dallas]

No, not saying you shouldn't do it, only that you (in general) can't think of it as something unique. Outside of the events/scenarios listed I have a hard time justifying bringing a Smn, that is what I mean to say. It's not as in a bad position as say pup/drg/bst, but it still requires more work on the BP system before I can see Smn being a viable job for more events/situations.

You bring SMN because you like the job and aren't one of those idiots that half-assess it. Yes, everyone and their dog knows that you can find 4 people to replace everything a SMN offers. More buffs than WHM, more damage than RDM, more healing than BRD, and more damage types than BLM. Less hate than all 4.

[Dallas]

So that I don't have to explain it later...

I've quickly established that SMN is not the worst mage at anything by comparing them to a job that is also not the worst at that category. Out of five jobs, SMN is no worse than 3rd in every category. I listed two that SMN is best.

[Babekeke]

More damage than an Almace RDM? I'm not convinced....

[Neisan_Quetz]

I don't think he could outdamage nuking Rdm.

I also can't remember the last time people actually cared about hate (ignoring WoE)... Or Brd Healing, are you serious? I mean, aside from both capping cure potency, Smn's advantage is wasting wards on healing, which is going to cut into 'more buffs than a whm' without a really effective shell, worse regens /phalanx than a Rdm (not that people rely on them much; if you bring up favor, you've already lost your more damage argument), and once again have to use wards for native enfeebles, anything else is half strength aside from Dia line which is same tier as whm.

EDIT: Wait wait wait, are you trying to compare Smn's damage/support/healing to the other mages/support, neglect Sch/Blu/Dnc/Cor, and then call yourself 3rd? I don't even... In terms of magical damage, I've yet to see Smn do more damage than Wildfire Cor. In terms of physical, behind pretty much all of them bar Blm. Healing is no better than 4th, and will probably drop to 5th after update.

[Karbuncle]

I don't think he could outdamage nuking Rdm.

A Melee RDM could out-DD a nuking RDM >_>. or was that the point you were trying to make? Like saying "He couldn't out-DD a nuking RDM, let alone an actual Almace RDM". type deal?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Depends what you're fighting, since obviously on harder targets melee damage drops off. Neither situation favors Smn imo until you're talking about hateless damage, which... isn't an issue in many events.

[Karbuncle]

Depends what you're fighting, since obviously on harder targets melee damage drops off. Neither situation favors Smn imo until you're talking about hateless damage, which... isn't an issue in many events.

IDK, With the Introduction of Shattersoul, I don't think SMN DD will fall so far behind RDM in nuking or what have you. Its a pretty good WS. Especially with a Hverg, Imagine so in Voidwatch, Dusty Wings rain from the sky, Can keep up 300%TP Aftermath and Stalwarts/etc for Shattersoul.

SMN suffers from lack of Attack above all else, Even in the TP Set above they're far behind other DD in terms of Attack/Acc. Voidwatch makes up for that with Stalwarts, Abyssea obviously with Atma, but on content outside of that... yah.

Still, Voidwatch is the only place you'd really bring a SMN realistically, because of procs. (outside of PD).

This topic makes me head spins because of all the uncertainty, I should get a 99 Hverg just to Melee in Voidwatch and see if i can piss people off for Pars data >_>

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's really good for a staff WS, but... that doesn't really make it that good. It's still used on the worst melee job in the game next to Blm, and has a pretty bad mod for a physical WS. Smn is as you said trailing in attack/DA/etc., Even for VW I wouldn't expect much.

And yes it still can only work in either abyss and maybe VW, though both would be hard pressed to be meleeing in VW, and mp isn't an issue in either.

[Karbuncle]

Only reason they don't generally melee in VW or Abyssea is because most people, as explained in my first post, are pretty much stuck in the Stupid ages of FFXI. VW/Aby is really the only place where SMN melee would be less-useless, because of the limitless MP and massive bonuses to SMN's natural weakness. it stops most smns because...

1) FFXI Stone-age monkeys might yell at them not to melee and refuse to give a valid excuse. (because there is none)
2) Most SMNs dont own a melee set because its not worthwhile for most events.

Theres a lot stopping it, But in this day, theres no valid reason not too in Events like VW and Abys, Hell, even Dynamis if you're there (like for Relic+2 trials).

As far as Shattersoul goes, 3.75fTP across the 3 hits and 100%INT Mod, A lot of SMN Gear is designed around INT. You can use High STR rings/Earrings, Belt, and Neck, And stock your Visible gear in INT. This will pack on the STR, and make up for their low STR.. This is a WS Set i had thought up for Shattersoul:

http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/250600

Will be pretty good. I think you could get some impressive numbers with the above.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I won't be able to test that since I've no interest in maat's or Kalasutrax, so someone else will have to. I haven't really seen impressive numbers from Shattersoul in the first place.

[Karbuncle]

I won't be able to test that since I've no interest in maat's or Kalasutrax, so someone else will have to. I haven't really seen impressive numbers from Shattersoul in the first place.

Well, I can get you some Out-side Abyssea Numbers later on, k? Its pretty decent.

Edit: If i had it merited. Doh.

[Sargent]

2) Most SMNs dont own a melee set because its not worthwhile for most events.

Might wanna add, with a full Idle set, Perp- set, full Summoning skill set, BP delay set, full Atk/MAB set, fast cast set, there's not much room for a melee set. I would love to carry one around for when I am needed to melee (/point WARs in VW who won't unequip Ukon to proc), but I'm currently 76/80 with just gear, Echos and Linkshell. I just hadta remove my most of my cure potency set to make room for additions to my summoner gear (Celeano/Bhishani finally put out), and it looks like my Fast Cast set is next.

[Karbuncle]

Might wanna add, with a full Idle set, Perp- set, full Summoning skill set, BP delay set, full Atk/MAB set, fast cast set, there's not much room for a melee set. I would love to carry one around for when I am needed to melee (/point WARs in VW who won't unequip Ukon to proc), but I'm currently 76/80 with just gear, Echos and Linkshell. I just hadta remove my most of my cure potency set to make room for additions to my summoner gear (Celeano/Bhishani finally put out), and it looks like my Fast Cast set is next.

Thats kinda what i meant anyway :P

Too many sets not enough room

[Dallas]

Worst melee next to BLM? We have turned stupid on full throttle, I see. The SMN's WS is the bloodpact. Always has been. Instead of attack, you get avatar attacks.Always has been that way. That's why stupid comments like "we need more attack" go unnoticed, but a 5% pet haste belt was implemented in months.

As for melee not being used in events, what kind of stupid events do you go to where NOTHING is fodder? You should have 300% TP ready to use Myrkr during the big fight because EVERYBODY was busy getting TP before the fight.

Seriously, is SMN the dumping grounds for stupid?

[Karbuncle]

Instead of attack, you get avatar attacks

Wasn't it shown by some amount of testing that "Avatar: Attack" Has almost no impact on BP Damage at all? Was under the impression anyway. Plus, Wouldn't you be better off using 75BP's on anything of consequence?

Plus, I'm using voidwatch as an Example cause its the one place SMN actually has a normal Spot in the alliance for. Other events you generally don't go SMN too. Because people won't invite you on it.

[Dallas]

I go to everything as smn. In a pinch I can replace every other mage. Otherwise, I'm dishing out damage and buffing.

I'm not talking "avatar attack" merits, I'm talking about the Assault command. SMN gets more attack rounds at half the hate. Those hits turn into pettp that is very useful.

[Karbuncle]

I go to everything as smn. In a pinch I can replace every other mage. Otherwise, I'm dishing out damage and buffing.

I'm not talking "avatar attack" merits, I'm talking about the Assault command. SMN gets more attack rounds at half the hate. Those hits turn into pettp that is very useful.

I Think i know what you mean then. Still, You're a special case. If you go SMN to every event, you clearly find tolerable people or have a good group of friends who will let you. If you see a Shout for Neo-Nyzul you'll never see someone asking for a SMN was my point. You can't really replace a SCH in the Neo Nyzul set up, Cause they're generally used for Embrava.

Its not that i don't believe what SMN can do, Its just undeniably there are some situations where SMN wouldn't fill the spot well enough, Same goes for all jobs.

[Dallas]

I made it a point 6 years ago to play within the same confines that all basic jobs play by. My job is to make sure nothing falls apart.

[Neisan_Quetz]

WS is BP on 45 second timer... I can't take you serious anymore. Even my whm weaponskills more often than that.

EDIT: Using your precious 'fodder' as a target (outside) using a modified DPS sheet and assuming only Mrykr since Dallas apparently isn't using any other WS and most of Karb's propsed set, your avatar would need to deal 170 damage per second to match an unbuffed Rdm, which is inferior to every other melee job in DPS. If you really think you're dealing good damage with that, idk what to say.

[Draylo]

SMN is in desperate need of help, stop trying to make it seem like it doesn't need it. Nobody uses SMN for anything besides zombying WOE or a 1 trick 2hr.

[Malamasala]

I'm always so disappinted at my new staff WS not critting.

You put up all those high damage atmas on your avatar in Abyssea, and then you get almost no benefit from them at all. (I need to level higher and put more than 1 merit into the ws though). I was doing about 600 damage, which is rather poor when I could be critting that damage up with a real WS.

[Mahoro]

SMN is in desperate need of help, stop trying to make it seem like it doesn't need it. Nobody uses SMN for anything besides zombying WOE or a 1 trick 2hr.

Don't think anybody is saying it doesn't need help. Also, you forgot Voidwatch. That combined with the stuff you listed (and upcoming Legion) actually means people use it on more than half the endgame events in FF. :p

[Dallas]

WS is BP on 45 second timer... I can't take you serious anymore. Even my whm weaponskills more often than that.

EDIT: Using your precious 'fodder' as a target (outside) using a modified DPS sheet and assuming only Mrykr since Dallas apparently isn't using any other WS and most of Karb's propsed set, your avatar would need to deal 170 damage per second to match an unbuffed Rdm, which is inferior to every other melee job in DPS. If you really think you're dealing good damage with that, idk what to say.
If we were to allow you to post as often as the people who know how you play smn let you play SMN, you'd have 99% of your posts somewhere else. Don't worry, we do completely understand that no one thinks you can play thejob well.

At least your WHM is levelled. Please, if you claim competence on that job, stop playing this one. You make us look bad.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Better than being as delusional about the job's state as you are.

[Dallas]

And LOL at your first attempt at anti-melee SMN calculations. Think that's cutting edge? Just like SMN, RDM is expected to perform their customary duties which require casting time to haste each person. SMN requires 1 second for a JA.

You can try all you like, but smarter arguments have failed.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You were the one claiming all you fight is fodder... Enfeebles aren't necessary on fodder nor is a ton of healing. Even taking out time to caste haste (This is so hard on a job with a large amount of fast cast, even without swapping weapons I finish casting haste long before you'll finish defensive bloodpacts) you're still behind a melee Rdm.

EDIT: Oh, and thanks for reminding me you have JA delay on all your bloodpacts slowing down your Tp phase. I'd say it comes out fairly even.

[Dallas]

I wasn't making any claims. You are so far out of the SMN discussion you actually think I'm having a conversation with you. I'm just setting you up over and over to make the same stupid arguments every non-SMN makes. The less you know, the better you dance, and you are a superstar.

Let's be honest. It doesn't matter what any SMN does. You won't learn from any of us. That's why i don't bother teaching.

[Neisan_Quetz]

So you can't admit you don't know how game mechanics work Laughtermath, your refute is time spent casting haste (~2 second or less casting time with decent fast cast, lasts 9 minutes on the Rdm themselves and 5:51 on others with composure bonus).


I wasn't making any claims.




As for melee not being used in events, what kind of stupid events do you go to where NOTHING is fodder? You should have 300% TP ready to use Myrkr during the big fight because EVERYBODY was busy getting TP before the fight.



Care to repeat that? You somehow think you're the only one who can store 300 tp pre fight... Even with 50% ODD, you'd still lose. Try again. You can't even back up your claims, you just toss out anecdotal evidence from fighting weak monsters.

[Fyreus]

More damage than an Almace RDM? I'm not convinced....

I would imagine that person might go down rather quickly on stuff that mattered xD

*page 11~

What some people also forget about smn's use is that it's valuable in a melee group (I HATE when people throw my smn in a magic group.. FFS ask me first) as there are mobs you don't want to get hit when your pants.. or fanatics falls. In my vwnm cycles i keep armor/ward/haste/enfire/attack+/BP and i toss ifrit in there for that 24% or so extra double attack.

Is it useless? No. Not really. He sits there minding his own business and i toss out heals here and there and 5 other guys get another hit in here and there and probably TP more. You'd need rdm/sch + cor/brd to replace me tbh :/ Another use is in a magic attack party where i'm able to keep up buffs/stats/absorb stats/refresh and so on.

The biggest problem with smn if anything is that some buffs are outdated and people don't understand that summoner is a buffer that can damage so they toss them in a pt with a rdm/whm/brd/blm/???/you and wonder why you are just BPing and sitting on your hands. There's nothing to do ffs. I think we should educate people :/

[Neisan_Quetz]

Favors need to be revamped, the Bloodpact system needs to be seriously redone. For a support job that can deal damage, I've found Smn to be fairly ineffectual in VW (in terms of dealing damage/supporting a melee party; a majority of its buffs alone are not enough, the Ward system severely limits both how many can be used- if you buff, you can't use main job healing etc. This is even worse than Sch's Art System). Other than unique procs in almost every group I've been in Smn is not effective enough to warrant its place outside of those procs/using EA when temps are down. This can probably be attributed to the fact temps refresh so often however; if they did not I could see Smn seeing more use in VW outside of bringing an obligatory 1 for procs.

Pre nerf Cor and Brd vastly outstrip Smn buffs in effectiveness for a melee party and Cor is a much better damage dealer. Hateless damage would be a nice niche, but other than WoE it isn't a called for strategy anymore.

I understand you say Smn isn't "useless" in the sense "Smn is unable to do anything in these situations", which I do agree, however I find it to be ineffectual, which for me is just as bad and why I believe Smn deserves more attention. Being in a better situation than pup/bst/drg is still not a good position to be in in my eyes, in just means all 4 badly need attention and Smn is just barely ahead of 3 of them.

[Economizer]

I've found Smn to be fairly ineffectual in VW

Funny story - and this is just a story not me actually arguing that SMN is one thing or another - the other day I was doing Voidwatch clears with a PUG and one of the mobs was giving the group a particularly hard time (mostly because the PUG was down a party and didn't want to shout for people who would want all of the clears on that tier when we were almost done). They decided to take a bunch of BST and SMN and throw pets at the mob until it died. Amazingly it worked (and there were so many Garuda's out that I thought I was in WoE).

[Fyreus]

Favors need to be revamped, the Bloodpact system needs to be seriously redone. For a support job that can deal damage, I've found Smn to be fairly ineffectual in VW (in terms of dealing damage/supporting a melee party; a majority of its buffs alone are not enough, the Ward system severely limits both how many can be used- if you buff, you can't use main job healing etc. This is even worse than Sch's Art System). Other than unique procs in almost every group I've been in Smn is not effective enough to warrant its place outside of those procs/using EA when temps are down. This can probably be attributed to the fact temps refresh so often however; if they did not I could see Smn seeing more use in VW outside of bringing an obligatory 1 for procs.

Pre nerf Cor and Brd vastly outstrip Smn buffs in effectiveness for a melee party and Cor is a much better damage dealer. Hateless damage would be a nice niche, but other than WoE it isn't a called for strategy anymore.

I understand you say Smn isn't "useless" in the sense "Smn is unable to do anything in these situations", which I do agree, however I find it to be ineffectual, which for me is just as bad and why I believe Smn deserves more attention. Being in a better situation than pup/bst/drg is still not a good position to be in in my eyes, in just means all 4 badly need attention and Smn is just barely ahead of 3 of them.

The first time i take smn to uptala i found my group to have been alive much longer than the other groups.. why? because smn can chain defensive buffs left and right and it matters in a situation when we're waiting on a blu proc or someone is unable to gain tp. I'm going to side with experience on this matter.

[Neisan_Quetz]

My experience with Uptala is he dies in ~3-5 minutes in a decent group.

[Fyreus]

Yep, most are in that range or less... then there's that 1min cool down on blu spells and waiting for hints but we all take big damage.

[Dallas]

Poor Neisan, let me throw you a clue. SMN works for me. What possible gain could there be trying to learn how to play like someone who has failed at the job? Do I want to be as miserable as you? I've been enjoying the job since 2006. Sucks to not be me, but fortunately, I am me.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If the best you can do is to retort with how Smn is good enough for you, then there's no point to responding to you any further. You're satisfied with how the job is, and nothing anyone else says is going to change that because you're too busy convincing yourself everything is sunshine and rainbows with Smn.

[Annalise]

If the best you can do is to retort with how Smn is good enough for you, then there's no point to responding to you any further. You're satisfied with how the job is, and nothing anyone else says is going to change that because you're too busy convincing yourself everything is sunshine and rainbows with Smn.

I love summoner. I have found some good uses with summoner over the years (e.g. SMN is good for -easy- low man kiting situations, someone kiting and avatar spamming Merit pacts, more useful at 75 than 99). But I agree that the job definitely has its limitations and things that need to be reworked. And I think anyone on SMN who thinks they are competing with someone playing the bandwagon jobs well is likely overestimating what they are doing. Especially in the days of 'zerging the crap out of things', SMN is left incredibly far behind due to the bloodpact timer. SMN can throw out an alexander, maybe one bloodpact, and sit back...

[Karbuncle]

Someone mentioned earlier not seeing any Shattersoul numbers, Well, I got 4/5 Shattersoul merits, Went out on SMN, and gathered a few hits:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll241/Karbuncle/Shatter-SMN.png

A few things to note:

1) I'm only 4/5 Merits
2) Using a Gerra's Staff (I.E Could be much better with Hverg)
3) My WS Gear Isn't the best.

This WS has some potential, Peaking 2,500 Even being just 4/5 and Mediocre Weapon/Gear for it. I know the mobs I'm fighting are rather weak, They weren't meant as anything other than a demonstration :)

Edit; Shortly after posting, I hit 2725 On a Bat. This WS is fun.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Hm, I tried modifying a sheet to estimate it but my numbers are off (have like a 2.9k average lol). That's about where I expect it would be however, what is your set for it, or same as one you posted earlier?

Food was RCB and dia 2 was on, that's only buffs used.

[Karbuncle]

Hm, I tried modifying a sheet to estimate it but my numbers are off (have like a 2.9k average lol). That's about where I expect it would be however, what is your set for it, or same as one you posted earlier?

Food was RCB and dia 2 was on, that's only buffs used.

My set is rather weak compared to the "Demonstraton" posted earlier. I use...

Gerra's Staff/Pole/xx/???
Maat's/Feud/Brutal/Aesir
Praeco/Errant/Rajas/Spiral
Potentia/Pipilaka/IN+11/Nebula

Overall, the sets not perfect, But its not horrible. I really want Rubeus Slacks :(, with 5/5, This WS Could be quite some fun. Especially with a 90/95/99 HVerglemir or (lol)Claustrum. Honestly, How "easy"(Read: Time consuming but doable) relics are, I've given some thought to a Claustrum >____>.

Food was Yellow Curry Bun, but was /WAR. Carbuncle's Favor is enough to keep me alive there >_> With a HEaling Ruby II now and again

[Sargent]

Honestly, How "easy"(Read: Time consuming but doable) relics are, I've given some thought to a Claustrum >____>.

Is it bad that relics are such a joke to get now that I'm actually doing this for poops and giggles?
Thought so :(

[Karbuncle]

Not really, In my eyes, its a good things, Those relic that used to be condemned as "Wastes of time" are now less so because its a goal you can work for.

[Malamasala]

Not a good goal though. Unless I've missed something those level 99 upgrades give you.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Either weapon runs into a similar issue as twash imo if MP is an issue. Either you use the better WS for damage or the weaker one for utility/ODD.

[Karbuncle]

Yah, But at level 90, Gates of Tartaru's will have WS Damage +40%, so At least it won't be super weak. The WS itself isn't terrible, and your ODD is always active.

MP Shouldn't be an issue :P, well, In VW...

I think it'd be a good goal as long as you have fun with it. Thats all you can ask for in the game of 0/300 Drop rates and No progression, Relics/emps are like, the only weapon in the game that give an easy feeling of progression anymore.

[Karbuncle]

Fun:


CRYSTAL STAFF rare/ex
DMG:98 Delay:360 HP+100 MP+100 INT+20 Accuracy+15 Attack+15 Haste+3%
LV99 WAR MNK WHM BLM RDM BST BRD SMN SCH

For all you SMN melee enthusiasts. This thing looks badass. INT+20 is a Shattersoul mod... Acc/atk, and 3% Haste which allows Summoner to cap Haste without the need for Ninirta's Sash or Nashira Gloves, Leaving Nashira gloves open to a better Melee Hand.

Also, new WS Belt:

VOIDWATCH BELT (15) rare/ex
DEF:9 STR+8 DEX+8 VIT-5 AGI-5 INT+8 MND-5
LV99 All Jobs

[Malamasala]

Looks OK. But it should have been AH-able so people could buy it. The stats are really not for most people, and it will be a weapon people toss, while others can't get their hands on it.

[Karbuncle]

It'll obviously come from the Crystal Dragon, But still, if its handled Voidwatch Style, I hate SE, because you're right, that staff will be tossed 9/10.

[Karbuncle]

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll241/Karbuncle/Shattersoul2.png

Got to play around with Shattersoul in Abyssea a bit, lolabyssea, But it was fun. They were leveled to DC. I also got a fun new Toy Staff. A Kirin's Pole with DMG:87 Attack+3 (Same INT+10 as Gerra's, So a net gain of 12 Damage and 3 attack!)

Also Finally got 5/5 on it. That one that almost Did 5k Was pretty nice, I mean, A 5k WS On Summoner, even if its Abyssea... My Average was ~3k. 4k~5k Peaks.

Atma's were VV/RR/MM. 5k on a Non-Crit WS in Abyssea, I'm still like "Wow". Especially for SMN :D, my WS gear is still less than optimal as well, and It'd probably broke 5k or more if i had just Rubeus Slacks, Let alone a Hvergl95~99.

[Babekeke]

Fun:


CRYSTAL STAFF rare/ex
DMG:98 Delay:360 HP+100 MP+100 INT+20 Accuracy+15 Attack+15 Haste+3%
LV99 WAR MNK WHM BLM RDM BST BRD SMN SCH

For all you SMN melee enthusiasts. This thing looks badass. INT+20 is a Shattersoul mod... Acc/atk, and 3% Haste which allows Summoner to cap Haste without the need for Ninirta's Sash or Nashira Gloves, Leaving Nashira gloves open to a better Melee Hand.

Also, new WS Belt:

VOIDWATCH BELT (15) rare/ex
DEF:9 STR+8 DEX+8 VIT-5 AGI-5 INT+8 MND-5
LV99 All Jobs

Nice to see that that weapon has WAR on it too... would be interesting to see what sort of WS numbers you can hit with it on WAR, since you can hit 5k in abyssea on SMN. Especially on mobs weak to blunt, though SE did say WAR was going to get an ability to swap weapon damage type.

But yes, it will open up a whole new playstyle for melee SMN, making it easier to cap Haste and acc so they can concentrate on better stats.

Not to mention it's a great macro piece for casting buffs on lots of people.

[Tannlore]

Someone mentioned earlier not seeing any Shattersoul numbers, Well, I got 4/5 Shattersoul merits, Went out on SMN, and gathered a few hits:

Make me sad, I posted a whole set of figures back when this came out with 5/5 merits and builds and atmas and such. Sure it's still around here somewhere.

[Karbuncle]

Make me sad, I posted a whole set of figures back when this came out with 5/5 merits and builds and atmas and such. Sure it's still around here somewhere.

What were your numbers like :o? I'm liking it so far, As shown above, about 5k Damage in Abyssea. I know its Abyssea, but 5k WS on a Non-crit WS on SMN of all things is impressive in my book.

[Babekeke]

Is it MAB based Karb? I'm just thinking that RR was doing nothing for your WS (unless you were /THF forcing crit with SA) so an MAB or another STR/ATT atma would produce even bigger numbers.

[Karbuncle]

Is it MAB based Karb? I'm just thinking that RR was doing nothing for your WS (unless you were /THF forcing crit with SA) so an MAB or another STR/ATT atma would produce even bigger numbers.

RR Was more for general Melee DPS. I was helping a friend with Fenrir Trials :) So i wasn't even trying to get huge Epeen numbers :O Its not MAB Based either, Its just a Physical WS. So Something like Stout Arm probably would have been better, but yah, as i said, used RR For Melee DPS, So the numbers could go higher.

Still, Outside Abyssea I've almost hit 3k, And that was back when i was only 4/5 Merits, and was using Gerra's, As said above, i'm now 5/5, and Have a nice Kirin's Pole...This WS has a lot of Potential, even for a SMN, the Int Mod helps it a lot more than one would think because of the overwhelming amount of INT Gear SMN Can use.

I'm kinda rambling, anyway, You're right :o

[Camate]

Greetings!

In the upcoming March version update we will be making the aforementioned summoner adjustments which can be found here: [dev1091] Job Adjustments: Summoner. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20945-dev1091-Job-Adjustments-Summoner)

In regards to higher tier magic spells for elementals, unfortunately since it is taking time to set monster behavior properly as well as the fact that working on Meteor took quite a bit of time, this portion will not make it in time for the March version update.

We will do our best after the version update to get it ready for implementation.

[Malamasala]

Wish you wrote more detailed posts.

What do you mean with "proper" monster behavior? I'd like to believe the poor testers tore their hair out in frustration of testing Tier-V nukes when the spirits only cast choke -> choke -> choke -> choke -> choke. And that because of that, they decided to improve the behavior to actually toss some tier-V nukes at higher priority.

I also hope they realized that assault resets timers and they had to wait ages due to the bug, and they got the developers to fix it.

Then again, perhaps all spirit testers get cheat spirits that they can not only tell what to cast, but also when. Or just get 999 smn skill and have them cast at super high speeds.

[Luvbunny]

Why is it so hard to apply similar AI code from puppet master automaton to the spirit... when spirit cast less spells.

[Moink]

Because it isn't similar AI for one and it has already been discussed that ffxi team has been working as a skeleton crew... Like he said, be patient and wait for it to come... not like it wasn't left ignored and have no response from the staff...

[Lotmorning]

Got to love how everything is being put on hold just because of Blm and Meteor. Wish I worked at a company where we can say "You know I don't feel like putting in extra time to finish everything we have told 1,000's of people just because we have been working on 1 thing." It just blows my mind how a company does this and feels just fine about it.

[Dallas]

What do you mean with "proper" monster behavior?

I also hope they realized that assault resets timers and they had to wait ages due to the bug, and they got the developers to fix it.

I hope this is what he means by "proper" though I also hope they didn't *accidentally* discover this behavior... lol.

[Malamasala]

Got to love how everything is being put on hold just because of Blm and Meteor. Wish I worked at a company where we can say "You know I don't feel like putting in extra time to finish everything we have told 1,000's of people just because we have been working on 1 thing." It just blows my mind how a company does this and feels just fine about it.

It isn't unreasonable that they try and get something done and pushing something else up a release, instead of pushing both up.

But I hope they won't waste more time on BLM after, since they got all the spells they need, while our spirits still need some work.

[FrankReynolds]

It isn't unreasonable that they try and get something done and pushing something else up a release, instead of pushing both up.

But I hope they won't waste more time on BLM after, since they got all the spells they need, while our spirits still need some work.

It would be super cool if they just finished the update before announcing the date and implementing it.

[Economizer]

I've been reading about Meteor and it got me to thinking a little. Then I was reading a poorly translated post in the JP forums about Bahamut (I think something along the lines of it being too powerful and the avatar would have to be designed from scratch or whatever) and it got me to thinking some more.

Meteor was too powerful before, and shoot, its pretty powerful now, and Black Mages are gonna get it. But think about how they get it... it is group cast.

Think about it... perhaps just one Summoner is too weak to bring forth the full power of Bahamut. But how about six? It would be a total nightmare to program I'm sure, but some form of Bahamut, either as a two hour that multiple SMN group cast, or some combined pet that multiple Summoners can command to use a Blood Pact, or some variation on some scale of something like this might be able to work from the balance perspective.

It might be infeasible, but I think it would be the best bet for Summoners everywhere to get Bahamut if a group cast or group pet mechanic was considered for it as an option. Obviously we'll have to see how well received Meteor is by Black Mages but if people really like it maybe we'll also see Summoner parties pooling their powers together to get even a gram of Bahamut's power.

[Sasaraixx]

Think about it... perhaps just one Summoner is too weak to bring forth the full power of Bahamut. But how about six? It would be a total nightmare to program I'm sure, but some form of Bahamut, either as a two hour that multiple SMN group cast, or some combined pet that multiple Summoners can command to use a Blood Pact, or some variation on some scale of something like this might be able to work from the balance perspective.

This was suggested on the Japanese forum.

The dev post states that implementing Bahamut is something they would really like to try. It also says that it is going to be an extremely long time before we see this actually happen. The two main concerns are having to create a summoned version of Bahamut because of his size and also how strong to make him. I am just happy that they have put this out on the table and are considering it. With the dev teams current resources and the myriad of other issues they (should be) are working on, it is going to take some time.

They still have Cait Sith and Atomos to implement. Bahamut is a staple of FF games, but I am okay with not having him as a summon. Personally, I would rather have Phoenix but I know I'm in the minority on that one. Regardless, it's nice to know that they are thinking about it.

[Ickelz]

They should make some of the -perpetuation equipment easier to aquire, as some of us don't have time to go farm/hunt limbus/nyzul all day long :(

[Draylo]

Limbus takes like 40m max and is soloable completely by a BLU, a lot soloable by SMN. Stop being lazy and using a low play time as a crutch.

[Dallas]

They should make some of the -perpetuation equipment easier to aquire, as some of us don't have time to go farm/hunt limbus/nyzul all day long :(

Might I recommend one of the jobs that wears the pink armor? That's the only way you are going to be geared without any farming of any event.

[Saiken253]

I suggest that after 75, our avatars no longer cost anything to keep out and our perp- gear is converted into haste for our pets :D

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I suggest that after 75, our avatars no longer cost anything to keep out and our perp- gear is converted into haste for our pets :D

Sure why not, While we're at it lets also do it so Avatars take no damage and instead damage heals them.

[FrankReynolds]

Sure why not, While we're at it lets also do it so Avatars take no damage and instead damage heals them.

For balance purposes, they will cost 2,000 MP to summon, have a recast of 5 minutes, and depop after every blood pact.

[Malamasala]

I think it is about time they actually got health from being nuked by their element though. Silly "balance" adjustment to make sure we aren't invincible against single element monsters.

[Economizer]

I think it is about time they actually got health from being nuked by their element though. Silly "balance" adjustment to make sure we aren't invincible against single element monsters.

Or at very least immune with gear options that benefit them for being nuked by their same element. SE said they wanted Summoners to use their avatars based on element not ability right?

I'm thinking new gear could have avatars getting nuked by their own element get a TP boost, it isn't much but it would certainly make for a balanced piece of gear that boosts damage. Maybe even the element they are strong against as well.

[Karbuncle]

not really, In a lot of instances, The element the Enemy is nuking of is generally the element their strong too... and since TP only effects magical BP's...

TP Boost from being nuked won't necessarily be a good thing. Sure there are some examples of mobs it would benefit, But not a whole lot.

[Fyreus]

Or at very least immune with gear options that benefit them for being nuked by their same element. SE said they wanted Summoners to use their avatars based on element not ability right?

I'm thinking new gear could have avatars getting nuked by their own element get a TP boost, it isn't much but it would certainly make for a balanced piece of gear that boosts damage. Maybe even the element they are strong against as well.

I don't recall seeing that anywhere, but if that were true, i'm sure they'd split up some of garuda's abilities and buff a good portion of BPs up to usable levels if that were the case... but... judging from what they're doing they want use to ability>element and won't try enforcing it in any way unless it's a pact.

[Miera]

I don't recall seeing that anywhere, but if that were true, i'm sure they'd split up some of garuda's abilities and buff a good portion of BPs up to usable levels if that were the case... but... judging from what they're doing they want use to ability>element and won't try enforcing it in any way unless it's a pact.
Its been said, it's somewhere in one of the SMN threads about it.It still makes no sense why they say it because everyone and their grandma use Garuda..

[Jerbob]

Sure why not, While we're at it lets also do it so Avatars take no damage and instead damage heals them.

Can I just ask why a change from perpetuation to pet haste gear would be so overpowered? It is an interesting idea, and the benefit for summoners is much less than a comparable change would be for a generic melee job.

TP is of questionable value to avatars considering that the TP merely enhances and not enables some of an avatar's equivalent of weaponskills, and that extra TP from faster attack speed may have no effect (based on how many merits are in place). That means that the primary benefit to avatars will be not in increased TP generation but in increased damage over time from physical strikes - strikes that are both notoriously weak and slow.

On the other hand, there is the loss of the perpetuation penalty to address. Before the cap increase I would have agreed that this was significant, but because SE has thankfully eased up on perpetuation increases and provided access to more perpetuation reduction equipment, most summoners are able to perpetuate avatars with at least 1MP/tick refresh. This would increase, for sure, but the effect would not be as groundbreaking as I think it may seem.

Such an adjustment would certainly be a massive boon for summoners, but we are talking about a job where bugfixes are major boons and our most significant recent update has been a job ability that was given to us "pre-nerfed" into oblivion. As such I think the idea deserves more thought than just a simple dismissal.

[Kysaiana]

The perpetuation - to pet haste isn't a bad idea, but I don't see SE doing it. However, I wish they would add more pet haste gear in general. I also wish that SMN magic skill would increase avatar attack/acc/mab/macc, in general, over the cap and not just acc/macc for BPs.

Lastly, it would be nice if BP: rage and BP: ward had a charge system similar to corsair or scholar. I don't think 2 charges would be overpowered. 45s between BP is just too long when there's already an MP cost to limit it from being spammed, and any melee can ws far more frequently for similar or more damage, and any mage can nuke more frequently for similar or more damage.

[Windwhisper]

I don't recall seeing that anywhere, but if that were true, i'm sure they'd split up some of garuda's abilities and buff a good portion of BPs up to usable levels if that were the case... but... judging from what they're doing they want use to ability>element and won't try enforcing it in any way unless it's a pact.

it was under a section where a new avatar favor was beeing discussed. so Economizer is right.

[Teraniku]

Still it's like SE is so afraid that if they give SMNs what they (I feel) need that they will be ostracizing their Favorite job of all time, SAM.

[Camiie]

Still it's like SE is so afraid that if they give SMNs what they (I feel) need that they will be ostracizing their Favorite job of all time, SAM.

I'll reiterate from another thread:
Yunaphobia. The irrational fear that the SMN job will become an effective and important part of the game.

[Nightstrike]

They should give us an ability that let's us use a spirit we have summoned as a kind of "sacrifice" when summoning an avatar of the same element to boost it's stats(ex: light spirit -> Carbuncle, dark spirit -> Fenrir/Diabolos). But now that i think about it, that idea is probably to pro for SE to even consider.

[Nala]

hmm on that note it'd be nice to be able to summon a different avatar without first having to unsummon the previous, though the overwriting summon thing with the spirits for a power boost is kind of an interesting idea.