Practical Soultions to Issues with RDM. [Archive]

Mageoholic

01-21-2012, 04:16 AM

Since you seemed to like my solution to the healing issue I posted a while back in terms of adjusting the caps of spells based on healing magic skill, to provide separation from main and sub job healing, as well as giving SCH and RDM more oomph to their heals. I have a list of suggestions reflecting our other casting sides.

Enfeebling.

This one is really messed up, and their is a way to ease the issue with it essentially being all or nothing. Currently enfeebling skill is what determines our accuracy, that is it. This skill should also be tied to increasing the potency of spells in a similar way that healing magic is meant to increase cure potency. It should also increase the MACC at the same time. Using MND as a secondary mod to increase potency instead of the only mod.

A comparison would be Weapon skill, skills in Swords and Daggers for example increase both Attack power (potency) and Accuracy (accuracy).

What this achieves:
Sets RDM apart from other casting classes who share enfeebles, mainly BLM and WHM.
Allows a RDM to gear for both MACC and Potency instead of one or the other.

On top of this change I personally would like to see Paralyze able to prevent mob TP attacks, if this means that players must see the same thing then so be it. It always makes me chuckle when my arm is so paralyzed that I can't swing my sword, but it magically disappears when I swing my sword to Weapon skill.

Enhancing.

In a similar vein to Enfeebling, this potency increase should cover all enhancing magic spells not just a select few. All enhancing magic spells should see some form of scaling based on skill levels.

Examples of this in game are BRD buffs, everyone of their buffs scales with their skill level of combined singing and wind/string.

What this does
Demonstrates RDM's highest ranked enhancing skill by allowing it to buff better then a WHM or SCH on buffs they share (such as haste)

What I would like to see in addition to this, allowing us to use our buffs on other people, Bar Spells Gain spells and Temper primarily.

Nuking
Again a similar vein as the previous two.

Allow for elemental magic skill to increase potency on nukes as well as MACC.

examples in game would be again combat skills, but also summoning magic.

These changes would ease up a lot of gearing restrictions RDM deals with, as well as make our spells slightly more useful in the sense they are not static all or nothing type spells.

On top of the perks to RDM, these buffs will also work on other jobs who can benefit, which is WHM BLM SCH. The key difference is that RDM (and SCH) will be the standouts in 2 areas where WHM and BLM will each have their own unique niche.

WHM = Healing Divine
BLM = Elemental Dark
RDM = Enhancing Enfeebling
SCH = Enhancing + Healing or Elemental + Dark, and Enfeebling (though it has no native enfeebling spells BALANCE!!!!)

There is your building block on how to fix the issues with RDM casting, now you just need to make our group 2 merits scrolls, give us the T3/4 versions, allow our debuffs to actually land on NM's.

In addition to that if you have an issue with the movement speed on gravity remove it. Get it off the spell. Call the spell Demi and slap a damage modifier on it.

Demi I - T1ish nuke DMG + Eva down
Demi 2- T3ish nuke DMG + Eva down (increase MP cost to reflect T3 nukes)

and to make it even more RDM like base the potency and macc on enfeebling.

Crimson_Slasher

01-21-2012, 06:53 AM

Not a bad list but id like to insert something just because it would streamline things. If we are truely to enhance others, then do away with some spells all together.

The following spells i would like to see removed and replaced;
Barfire > Barfira
Barwater > Barwatera
Barthunder > Barthundra
Barstone > Barstonera
Baraero > Baraera
Barblizzard > Barblizzara
Barsleep > Barsleepra
Barblind > Barblindra
Barparalyze > Barparalyzra
Barpetrify > Barpetra
Barpoison > Barpoisonra
Barsilence > Barsilencera
Barvirus > Barvira
Baramnesia > Baramnesra
Gain-STR > Boost-STR
Gain-DEX > Boost-DEX
Gain-VIT > Boost-VIT
Gain-AGI > Boost-AGI
Gain-INT > Boost-INT
Gain-MND > Boost-MND
Gain-CHR > Boost-CHR

As all of these spells behave the same as one another, i see no reason to create separate spells (That are unable to take effect concurently on a single character) other than to deliberately hinder redmage's party support abilities. Making this conversion in redmage's spell library will actually remove 21 spells from the game, giving room for a different 21 spells to be placed in the game in their places.

I however am aware there are some downsides to such a change, primarily a doubling of mp costs for the Barspells, however with their instant cast and mp costs of less than even a cure IV, it would be a negligible loss. I do realize however that would cause some other undesired side-effects, such as less utility for scholar's Accession ability, it would still have merit for use with still a great number of spells, those of note being phalanx, refresh, stoneskin, enspells, blink, aquaveil, and all of scholar's job-specific enhancing spells.

Ultimately this would limit the spells that need to be cycled to multiple members to Phalanx II, (If the redmage is so inclined to merit it) Refresh I/II, and Haste. This would however NOT prevent the redmage from needing to apply Protect and Shell to each individual party member. Having a spell a redmage only needs to cast once already upon himself, changed to that of a party effect wouldnt put much more strain on the red mage itself, but instead may offer less subjob dependancy for certain situations. If anyone would like to add, or expland, or debate this idea though, please feel free to do so.

Ophannus

01-21-2012, 08:21 AM

I just don't get how SE can say WHM is the healing specialist but then they also get better enhancing magic spells than us(namely AoE's).

It should be that WHM is a 6/10 enhancing 6/10 enfeebling and 10/10 at healing , RDM should be 10/10 enhancing and 10/10 Enfeebling and 6/10 healing.

Instead WHM's are currently a 8/10 enfeebling, 9/10 enhancing and 10/10 healing, RDMs are 10/10 enfeebling 3/10 enhancing(now that anyone can sub RDM and haste) and 4/10 healing. WHM almost eclipses us on enfeebling but the only enfeebles we get over a WHM are our merit spells really, yet Cure V and Cure VI aren't merit spells. Why aren't SCH PLD and RDM almost as strong as a WHM's cures save for their merit spells but BLM/RDM and WHM/RDM can cast almost all of our enfeebles except for our merit spells?

We have very few unique enfeebnling spells that only RDM can cast but BLM surely has dozens of elemental spells RDM can't cast and WHM has dozens of healing and enhancing spells that we cannot cast.

WHM specializes in healing so let them keep AoE healing.
BLM specializes in elemental so let them keep AoE elemental.
RDM specializes in enhancing/enfeebling so why can't we use AoE enhancing and enfeebling?

saevel

01-21-2012, 09:01 AM

SE already said we're not getting aoe enhancement spells. Their vision is RDM as a self buffer and WHM as a party buffer. Scroll down a bit and you can see my thread where they flatly told us no.

ManaKing

01-21-2012, 07:16 PM

Yeah if you check all the Dev response threads, it looks pretty poorly for us.

Can we get any mage love? NO RDM is supposed to suck at pretty much everything and be bad in a party.
Will you ever fix enfeebles? OF COURSE......EVENTUALLY.
Any chance we might get some synergy for our mage and melee sides? NO YOU HAVE TO KEEP FIGHTING EACH OTHER TILL WE SHUT THE SERVERS DOWN.

I haven't seen anything positive out of any representative from SE. They are doing a very poor job of reassuring RDMs. Zero Transparency and even less progress.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-21-2012, 09:47 PM

Mageoholic

01-22-2012, 09:15 AM

This was mentioned in another thread (Paraphrasing some what)

Red Mage

A mage first and everything else second.

But what kind of mage? Both our healing and elemental skills are less than our skills in Melee combat, if skill set defines ones role how is it that we are a mage first when half our casting skills are weaker then our melee skills.

It is the truth we are a mage first. A support mage, the job is designed around getting buffs and enfeebles out and then providing additional group support through our variety of secondary skills (healing, nuking, melee). Some are quick to judge based on our inherent mage like abilities defining us as a mage only job.

This is half true. Consider the following.

Fast Cast.
Increases the speed at which we can distribute spells, opening time to use other abilities. Often this is seen as a way to increase time spent healing (the primary role a RDM used to perform). It also increases time spent nuking (a secondary role a RDM performs) it also increases time spent meleeing on a mob. In each instance getting our primary spells out faster increase our time performing our secondary roles.

Composure
Increased buff duration, ACC without a doubt the most obvious trait that supports our multiple roles.

Emp Armor
Increased buff duration, this allows us to extend composure effects to allies, which in turn reduces our time spent casting support spells and more time performing our situational secondary actions (healing/nuking/melee)

These things affect every aspect of our secondary skills greatly, by reducing our time spent performing our support mage duties it increases our time and effectiveness at doing other duties (healing/nuking/melee)

So yes it is true that we are a mage first, but we are a support mage first, we apply buffs and debuffs, then we perform a role that is situational, healing needs help then it heals, nukeing damage is low it nukes, melee needs more it melees. It doesn't need to be the best over even close to par with the jobs that perform these tasks, it only needs to be around 80% effective. The other 20% is made up threw our buffs increasing damage output, healing output, damage intake, and our enfeebles increasing damage output, and reducing damage coming in.

These are the staples of a RDM, these schools of magic allow us the ability to perform other duties. Being able to reduce incoming melee attacks by 1/3 means our Cure IV (if SE increases the cap on cure 4 to about the same as a cap of C5) would stand up in a lot of situations. Being able to negate attacks completely with paralyze saves us from having to burn a heal at all. Gravity on a mob allows most every DD to eat meat, a 10% Hit rate increase, that is a large boost to melee output. The fact that our enfeebles are essentially ineffective (due to various reasons is absurd).

In the enhancing vein we have Haste, Refresh II and that is really it unless you merit Phalanx II. The trouble here is that SE has limited RDM at that, we have a few very nice buffs that can not be cast on others. Temper for one, Gain Spells, Barspells. While at the same time giving several jobs the ability to provide haste/refresh and Cure IV at similar levels as RDM, and then their own unique abilities on top of that (BRD, SMN for example).

The above changes I listed to how skill effects the spells involved (potency increase) to diversify RDM from other jobs with similar spells (WHM, BLM, SCH). Allowing RDM to have higher overall buff scaling and debuff scaling through its native A+/B+ skills demonstrating the superior ability to provide magical support to its allies.

Everything from the job stems from the ability for a RDM to weaken a monster and strengthen teammates, and currently RDM is not accomplishing these task.

This is a serious situation that has been evolving over quite a period of time. In addition to the above changes to skill affecting the potency of spells:

Enfeebling:
Make these spells land, all of them if certain ones seem to strong adjust them.

Gravity is a huge buff 10% Hit rate is a large buff, yet it is restricted due to the movement speed effect. (Get rid of the movement speed effect).

Slow is ineffective due to the rate at which mobs gain TP, give us an enfeeble that restricts mobs TP gain so slow can be noticeable in effect, other jobs can do this.

Paralyze needs to work on TP moves, you have BLU a job with an incredible amount of stuns that can be spammed near indefinitely. Why can paralyze not stop a WS too?

Blind this spell is actually probably the only one that isn't entirely useless now, since it affects both melee and physical TP moves. It is the only tool a RDM has that is actually beneficial in combat. Too bad NIN has Kuryami (lvl 44) which is the same as our meritable Blind II spell (@5 merits). This needs to change, as a meritable spell this should be more powerful then one learned at lvl 44.

Enhancing:
Let us use all of our buffs.

Why are we limited to Haste/Refresh/RefreshII essentially our only native Enhancing buff left is Refresh II, everything else is available as JOB/RDM, We have Phalanx 2 I guess, but SCH can AOE Phalanx 1 for as much as Phalanx 2's potency.

Temper, allow us to cast this on others it is a great benefit to the people in our groups, you give COR has it, SMN has it, so it is not an issue of it being to strong, and considering the other unique buffs those two jobs have it benefits diversity by having a RDM cast double attack buffs, and have COR do TP roll, or SMN provide critical hit rate aura.

Haste, let this spell scale like BRD's let it rise based on Skill level from 15% to 20%, this is not game breaking, especially since you put 15% on a dagger so now any job on that particular item has a pocket haste (literally my DNC loves this btw). It separates RDM from the other buffers and /RDM or /WHM buffers as well.

Barspells ..... really. WHM can AoE these, why can't we single target them
Gain spells : See Bar spells.

These adjusments to our buffing debuffing side. The structure of the entire job depends on its ability to play situational tide turner, it is meant to weaken foes, and strengthen allies and fill in gaps in healing or in nuking or in melee, as needed.

On a curious note, are our buffs limited because you are running out of space to keep track of the buffs a player has?

Mageoholic

01-22-2012, 09:45 AM

because I am feeling particularly ranty.

To elaborate on why you need to allow us to cast better enfeebles and enhancements based on skill.

BLM/RDM
WHM/RDM
BLM/WHM
WHM/BLM
SCH/RDM
NIN

can all land enfeebles of similar effect as RDM. RDM's only trick in the sleeve is the T2 versions, the fact that mobs are immune or unaffected by these spells is also an issue. But looking at the T1 versions they are all identical all these jobs have a similar chance to land and cause a similar level of potency. This is why you added the T2 versions in the first place, to set a distinct line that RDM was the enfeebling job.

Which leads me to point number 2.

Even if you do make these spells land without allowing changes to certain ones and increasing their effects based on skill, the mobs you have given us are zerg fests. Instead of just increasing the HP of the mob to compensate for our increased power you have given these monsters 1 shot abilities, instant deaths, dooms, zombie aura's. A pile of crap that didn't need to be introduced.

We used to fight for long periods of times killing monsters who had crazy HP but normal abilities. Sky Gods for example and land kings, where buffs and debuffs were crucial. In todays endgame it is Atma's, Atmacites, and Temp Items. You need to abandon this crap shoot. Make the challenge actually killing a mob as a team before it kills you. This makes enfeebling and enhancing all the more needed. Which is why jobs like BRD COR and RDM experienced decent representation at endgame events. You needed these jobs because they actually turned the tide of battle in your favor.

You have let the zerg mentality steer you to do things that alienate jobs that don't have high tier damage or healing, which has limited your game to several jobs that people see relevant. (Because they are the only ones who can really accomplish the task.) Yes Zerging will happen but the game should not be designed around a zerg, it should be designed around 18 people getting together on any job and being able to clear content and recieve rewards. The current meta game discourages even bringing a RDM, and many other jobs to boot. This is wrong.

At least in ToAU jobs that weren't welcome in EXP were still welcome at endgame, now anyone can EXP but if you aren't WAR, SAM, DRK, DRG, THF, BLM, WHM, MNK you aren't really needed.

NeoLionheart

01-22-2012, 10:23 PM

If paralyze starts effecting tp attacks for enemies, then it will affect player's too. If your idea gets implemented may god have mercy on your soul.

Aleste

01-22-2012, 11:34 PM

Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

I don't see any harm in having bar/gain/temper spells being single-party/alliance targetable, and with that said, AOE buffs should stay under WHM forte.

inb4: We don't want any more buffs that we'll have to cycle around players.

saevel

01-23-2012, 12:08 AM

I don't see any harm in having bar/gain/temper spells being single-party/alliance targetable, and with that said, AOE buffs should stay under WHM forte.

inb4: We don't want any more buffs that we'll have to cycle around players.

Clever trolls is clever.

Main Job: WHM lv. 99

Geeze agenda much..

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 12:12 AM

If paralyze starts effecting tp attacks for enemies, then it will affect player's too. If your idea gets implemented may god have mercy on your soul.

Is it really that big of a deal? Players spaz out if they are paralyzed longer than 10 seconds and miss melee swings as it is. The difference is, in a TEAM game we have jobs whose responsibility it is to remove paralyze. If TP attacks are being paralyzed on players then you should ask your WHM's, SCH's /WHM's, /SCH's to pay more attention. You yourself should pay more attention as well.

I personally see no issue with TP moves being paralyzed.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 12:14 AM

Clever trolls is clever.

Geeze agenda much..

Is everyone a troll? RDM doesn't need AoE's, bur it does need the ability to cast barspells, gainspells and temper. (which should work with Accession as well).

Main Job
WAR lv. 99

Also what is your point?

Neisan_Quetz

01-23-2012, 12:24 AM

Is it really that big of a deal? Players spaz out if they are paralyzed longer than 10 seconds and miss melee swings as it is. The difference is, in a TEAM game we have jobs whose responsibility it is to remove paralyze. If TP attacks are being paralyzed on players then you should ask your WHM's, SCH's /WHM's, /SCH's to pay more attention. You yourself should pay more attention as well.

I personally see no issue with TP moves being paralyzed.

All you need is remedies now, you don't lose items trying to remove para. Paralyze auras would be more annoying but whatevs, it isn't like SE doesn't give enemies amnesia aura anyway.

Aleste

01-23-2012, 12:36 AM

Feliciaa

01-23-2012, 03:35 AM

Rofl, I'll switch to my RDM99 mule if that makes what a COMMUNITY REP said more valid.

Personally, I never understood why the RDM spells were self-target only..

Edit:// Clarity, It was in reference to the second(third?) post who wanted the single target spells replaced with their AOE equivalents.

I agree 100% with you. All these self-target bar spells take up a lot of slots for potential spells that could be added and it would not be game breaking or hurt whm if the single target spells were taken out and replaced with their AoE counter-part. Another interesting thing that could be done is to naturally make En2-spells AoE.

As for Enfeebling magic.. RDM needs more unique spells that are RDM only. Why invite a RDM when jobs x,y, and z can all gain access to the same spells? RDM is meant to excel at Enfeebling magic yet BLU has WAY WAY more enfeebling spells then a RDM. Literally, go spend 2 min looking at all the Enfeebling spells BLU has.

Also, for being an Enfeebling expert there should be some traits to reflect this whether it's a enfeebling trait with m.acc, duration, casting speed or some other kind of bonus. But something needs to clearly show that RDM is the go to job for enfeebling.

Greatguardian

01-23-2012, 03:41 AM

Man, but letting Red Mages cast Temper on other players would actually give people a reason to bring RDMs to events.

ManaKing

01-23-2012, 04:09 AM

Man, but letting Red Mages cast Temper on other players would actually give people a reason to bring RDMs to events.

It would. You could legitimately classify RDM as a support mage because they would have at least 1 spell for mages and 1 spell for melee that they could call their own. Would that be any different than what a COR can do? NO. But so long as they both stacked, you could invite both.

I personally think we should be getting Sphere's so that you stand by which ever group you need to be affecting. You want to give front line jobs Temper? You have to be there. You want to give back line jobs Refresh II? Sit your butt down and put your sword away. Haste, Phalanx, Bar, and Enspells working like this would have been optimal as well, but we have already gotten the FU RDM from SE. Just relish how much they care about RDM.....NONE.

Feliciaa

01-23-2012, 05:04 AM

Temper should have naturally been a AoE spell with the type of range that protect and shell have. Considering this is a heavily team based game the idea of self-target spells seems very counterproductive. As a PT/alliance leader why invite a Support job that can only self-buff or is restricted to very time consuming single buffs, when you could invite a COR,SMN, or BRD who can all buff multiple targets at once and support with extra healing or DD?

Greatguardian

01-23-2012, 05:04 AM

It would. You could legitimately classify RDM as a support mage because they would have at least 1 spell for mages and 1 spell for melee that they could call their own. Would that be any different than what a COR can do? NO. But so long as they both stacked, you could invite both.

I personally think we should be getting Sphere's so that you stand by which ever group you need to be affecting. You want to give front line jobs Temper? You have to be there. You want to give back line jobs Refresh II? Sit your butt down and put your sword away. Haste, Phalanx, Bar, and Enspells working like this would have been optimal as well, but we have already gotten the FU RDM from SE. Just relish how much they care about RDM.....NONE.

I don't see people asking white mages to whip out their mauls just because Afflatus Misery and Cura are designed around being in melee range.

It's more like those spells and abilities are generally useless because they'd require a mage to be in melee range.

Otherwise, you missed the sarcasm. That or uMad to the nth degree. Take a few dozen chill pills and stop posting for a week or something.

Feliciaa

01-23-2012, 05:28 AM

It would. You could legitimately classify RDM as a support mage because they would have at least 1 spell for mages and 1 spell for melee that they could call their own. Would that be any different than what a COR can do? NO. But so long as they both stacked, you could invite both.

I personally think we should be getting Sphere's so that you stand by which ever group you need to be affecting. You want to give front line jobs Temper? You have to be there. You want to give back line jobs Refresh II? Sit your butt down and put your sword away. Haste, Phalanx, Bar, and Enspells working like this would have been optimal as well, but we have already gotten the FU RDM from SE. Just relish how much they care about RDM.....NONE.

I think you 2 are on the same side so lets focus on the issues with RDM and not each other...

I agree that making Temper a AoE spell that would stack with COR could add a lot of appeal to invite a RDM.

However, I disagree with adding sphere effects to RDM. I only say this because I would rather see AoE spells for RDM so it can support both DD and mages and be a support job on the same level as COR,BRD and SMN instead of being forced to pick whether to support DD or mages.

Crimson_Slasher

01-23-2012, 07:57 AM

Just because they want it to stay single target doesnt mean thats whats best for redmage. All i have to say on the matter of lacking area buffs.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 10:04 AM

We don't need AoE's or gimmicks like sphere spells, we need to have all of our enfeebles and buffs to be useful to the party.That is what we need. If in the future it is deemed casting load is restricting our ability to perform our secondary skills then we discuss ways to make these more time efficient, be it a RDM buff that allows for aoeing, allowing them to work with SCH's accession or making them AoE in general.

The most important thing is to make our primary skills work to better the group, currently our enfeebling and enhancing skillset does not allow to do this or is no better than jobs with similar spells or that use rdm as a sub job.

One thing at a time.

Crimson_Slasher

01-23-2012, 10:21 AM

While id like either, id strongly prefer to cut out the middle man. Sure we arent in much position to make demands, but id rather not be put in a position where we get a very small change where later we will once again be back here demanding AOE spells, when we could just try to get them now. Im not saying all our buffs, im not saying AOE temper, or AOE stoneskin, and while gain spells are rather powerful, barspells are a survival tool that would be nice to gain and not be shackled to /whm or use an already valuable stratagem on. One thing at a time is a reasonable guideline, but we need something big, and again, cycles suck, so lets get away from that!

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 10:54 AM

What is big is having our spells actually work, and being able to cast them in the first place.

Seriha

01-23-2012, 01:54 PM

AoE/Sphere or GTFO on applying our current buffs to others. Otherwise, aside from sapping even more fun out of the job with the cycle blah, you'll wind up having to swap enhancing gear around for the Emp+2 set, making things like our Barspells or Gains even weaker than the WHM counterparts if you want be casting them less often. Not gonna fall for the trap of "Do it now and we'll worry about the consequences later!" line, either.

Greatguardian

01-23-2012, 03:11 PM

No one gives a shit about RDM's third-rate Barspells, and unless you think RDM's going to be a main healer again no one gives a shit about their Gain spells either.

It's Temper that people would want cycled, so cry moar about how hard that is.

ManaKing

01-23-2012, 05:39 PM

I don't see people asking white mages to whip out their mauls just because Afflatus Misery and Cura are designed around being in melee range.

It's more like those spells and abilities are generally useless because they'd require a mage to be in melee range.

Otherwise, you missed the sarcasm. That or uMad to the nth degree. Take a few dozen chill pills and stop posting for a week or something.

I guess you missed the part were I'm allowed to have an opinion of dissatisfaction about the current implementation and future prospects of my job that I play. I guess I should post something stupid like, 'come at me bro' or some other internet trash to make you happy GG. I understand you like getting attention by intentionally disagreeing with people and trying to make be rude to them after they have agreed with you, but honestly I don't really care about your dissonance. Just stick to actually discussing RDM and stop making all the side trips to insulting people. It's just not necessary.

One thing at a time.

Absolutely not. It takes years for anything to be updated. We need it as quickly as possible and as much at a time as we can get. Stop being complacent. That's how SE can hand us trash like Break and Gravity 2 and expect everything to be OK.

Gains and Boosts don't stack? Oh that's ok SE you basically just dicked us over in a party setting, but it's cool. I mean we have such an overwhelming party presence already to fall back on from all the half asses attempts SE has made at giving RDM a growth chart from 76>99.

What is big is having our spells actually work, and being able to cast them in the first place.

No see that is what was already needed. They failed at implementing it and we've gotten to suffer for it. Stop thinking that you are being unreasonable for asking your job to work.

No one gives a shit about RDM's third-rate Barspells, and unless you think RDM's going to be a main healer again no one gives a shit about their Gain spells either.

It's Temper that people would want cycled, so cry moar about how hard that is.

Agrees with GG. There was nothing generous about RDM not being able to share Temper. It effectively locked us out of party play. No one cares about anything but the best because they only plan around best case scenarios when they put together parties. They aren't voluntarily going to look for a 2nd rate version of something they can get a 1st rate version of. That would just be bad planning.

Our bar spells are trash compared to what a WHM can qualitatively and quantitatively do with their versions of the spells. Unless Gain and Boost Spells are going to stack, no one is going to care either. The point where Temper becomes desirable is the point where it can be placed on others and it stacks other all other versions of it. If COR and RDM give you even more Double Attack than either separately, then you can plan around amazingly broken amounts of DA. If not, then you invite the COR and you invite the RDM only when you can't find a COR.

As it stands, RDM is the Jack of Second Rate. Not even the King/Queen of it. We are grossly under-powered for party standards of desirability.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 11:54 PM

Then bitch and moan to be a better healer, nuker, melee then see how far that goes and where you end up. Ill tell you right now no amount of buffing to healing nuking or melee is going to make RDM any more valued then WHM or SCH, or BLM or SCH, or WAR MNK DRG DRK SAM NIN THF DNC. The only place the job can be diverse is in the enfeebling and enhancing position, and the only way to make it diverse is by allowing its spells to work and to have potency influenced by skill on all spells.

Feliciaa

01-24-2012, 04:43 AM

No one disagrees with what you said about spells working and skill playing a bigger part in potency Mageoholic. That is 100% how RDM should function. However, that's only a small part of a much bigger issue with RDM. If SE was to only fix skill and potency RDM still does not bring very much to a high level fight such as VW. Not when most support jobs also have access to some of the same spells, healing magic and lots of conserve MP tools.

With Enhancing magic we have to look at what RDM brings to the table VS. other support classes. Yes RDM can heal, haste, cast high level shell/protect, and Phalanx 2 but is this really worth a spot when you could get a WHM to pre-shell/protect and have a SMN,COR, or BRD not only support heal/DD but provide much better performance Enhancements?
As others have stated. No one is looking for every RDM spell to suddenly become AOE. But RDM is in serious need of some unique RDM only Support spells so people will actually want to spend a PT slot on one. This way RDM can quickly buff his/her PT but is not locked down into another mindless spell to cycle.

At the moment RDM has a lot of self-target spells which means absolutely nothing in a MMO that is solely based on team play.

Mageoholic, you are correct that skill is very important. However, the stuff others have mentioned about AOE buffs and RDM's general lack of unique spells is also correct. In my opinion both go hand in hand.

Crimson_Slasher

01-24-2012, 06:56 AM

I agree partly too. Gain spells and bar spells targeted to party wouldnt help. Even getting boost spells and native aoe barspells wouldnt fix our lack of wanting in parties, but it would sure as hell do more and not force us to cycle them. If a Whm can aoe +25 potency boost spells, then why would us doing it one at a time be better when its the same mp cost? Even if we could deliver gain spells custom order to each party member, thats more downtime for the buff. Only thing we can offer is a little durration. Instead if we had boost spells, we could do that instead of the whm, letting them carry less gear, or waste less time reapplying them during the fight. Same with barspellras We can apply them during more hectic fights where they are essential. We can take a hit better than white mage usually, so why not have us put ourselves in danger for reapplying those spells quick when needed, while we still would have the ability to do our other duties. Less cycles, more buffs when needed, and a bit more utility for Redmage in party.

Im no fool though, that wouldnt cement our slot in a party either, but with hastes, and refreshes, and enfeebles, maaaaybe. Because while temper is cool, i dont think our 20% (or less) is gonna outmatch anyone else's equal or greater potency DA buff and im doubtful it would give us enough of a party presence either. Dont get me wrong, it would help but DA has a cap just as anything else does, but would 3 DDs at DA cap beat 4 DDs at high rate of DA? Too many variables unless that party wouldnt have a whm.

Still i dont think Temper is ENOUGH of a buff to warrant rdm's invite even if it were targetable. I mean im still running into players who skimmed the rdm forums or from hearsay think its still 5% DA.

Like Seriha says, and i agree, Aoe or go home. /endramblythoughts

Greatguardian

01-24-2012, 07:07 AM

I'd like to see these imaginary people that cap Double attack rate with or without Temper.

I'd also be pissed if it was caster AoE because caster AoE is annoying and a good part of why Boost spells suck.

Party targetable with Accession access is vastly superior to caster AoE.

Crimson_Slasher

01-24-2012, 07:26 AM

Assuming your double attack cap is 50%, corsair's roll grants 2%-24% of double attack (max with a warrior in the party who also natively have 10% double attack) putting any warriors in the party at base of 34% DA before any gear with a max roll. +5% from ravager pants +2 (which would be likely a TP build piece) Puts them at 39% already, Aethling + Brutal, and theyre at 47% And if theyre using a pole grip thats 49%. So anything else in their build with +DA (like ravager earing) would put them at 50% cap.

As for jobs without that option, lets look at SAM in the same party /war. Same base 34%, Aethling and brutal once again pushing them to 42% already. Dunno if zanshin stacks or is counted toward that cap, but that is there too. Lets not forget that there are very healthy amounts of DA gear sam can equip (Calmecac pants, Jingang boots, askar body, portus collar, etc) Which some of can be used while letting sam keep capped haste and push their DA numbers. Granted not all of these things will happen at once but they arent all that unrealistic really i dont think.

Edit:
And this is all outside of other factors like triple attack, and atma/atmacites because location was not specified.

Edit #2: Monk/war, also in same party, starting at 34%, add aethling brutal and epona's and you're at 45% Then depending on the rest of your build, if with blackbelt you can use calmecac pants or if no black belt you could possibly use twilight belt in waist (as some aby-burn monks as of the shinryu zerg) would put you at 47%. From there, Juogi/+1, or Ocelomeh/+1 or Toci adds even more, putting you anywhere from 49%+. Just because your main was set to monk.

Edit #3: A more realistic argument would be about allowing COR to use other rolls because the rdm is granting the DA buff, but i still dont know if a 3 DD party with a rdm/cor/whm would outdo a 4DD party with a whm and cor.

Edit #4: Posting quote so it cant be changed to try to add/omit conditions.

I'd like to see these imaginary people that cap Double attack rate with or without Temper.

I'd also be pissed if it was caster AoE because caster AoE is annoying and a good part of why Boost spells suck.

Party targetable with Accession access is vastly superior to caster AoE.

Neisan_Quetz

01-24-2012, 08:01 AM

Double attack does not cap... The only known limit is the amount of DA you can actually get.

saevel

01-24-2012, 08:20 AM

@CS,

That's all good in theory.

In actuality, 99% of the population wont' be getting COR rolls with a WAR in the party, nor fighting things that are 6 man onry. VWNM is alliance content, and the new Legion system will be multiple alliance content. People are having enough issues fill an alliance in voidwatch with all the different jobs, usually you end up leaving out one or two and just wing it. COR's just roll misers and tacticians, and not waste time on DA rolls.

In actuality, very few people will ever be anywhere near capping double attack. Caster centered Temper / Boost spells are ideal for a hybrid fighter mage as their the better suited to taking damage and the associated status ailments then your healers are.

Haldarn

01-24-2012, 08:25 AM

How about a job ability called, say, "Mentor" that transfers all self-cast buffs onto another party member with their maximum duration, cooldown one minute?

That keeps the vision of RDM as a self-buffer intact, whilst still providing a unique buffing role in a party situation and not detracting from other mages' AOE buffs.

Crimson_Slasher

01-24-2012, 08:41 AM

No known cap, and even if cors are there or not regularly, i took a quite realistic example to show that if the cap were 50% it would be quite reachable, Even without a warrior, 50% double attack is still reachable. I took the model is was presented (Cor + RDM + # of DDs, not to mention WARs are out in force as of late last i checked...) Not to mention in VW that party isnt that unrealistic either, though would be a bit silly in my opinion for the layout of one of your 3 parties.

Doombringer

01-24-2012, 09:34 AM

also.. doesn't that whole argument rely on there being a double attack cap? i thought the consensus was that da prolly just caps at 100%.. at wich point it becomes redundant. just feels like you're taking a pretty big leap...

since it's not like haste where it gets exponentially better as you get more.. every 1% of da, is "just" 1%.

am i wrong? has there EVER been anything to suggest double attack rate caps at anything less than 100%?

Greatguardian

01-24-2012, 10:29 AM

Double attack does not cap... The only known limit is the amount of DA you can actually get.

also.. doesn't that whole argument rely on there being a double attack cap? i thought the consensus was that da prolly just caps at 100%.. at wich point it becomes redundant. just feels like you're taking a pretty big leap...

since it's not like haste where it gets exponentially better as you get more.. every 1% of da, is "just" 1%.

am i wrong? has there EVER been anything to suggest double attack rate caps at anything less than 100%?

This is correct. I'd like to see where this "50% DA cap" is coming from, because no one else is in on it.

As for Monk, Calmecac trousers and Twilight belt are shit.

ManaKing

01-24-2012, 01:39 PM

Yeah no idea where a DA cap is coming from. If you managed to get 100% that would be cool.....but you probably could have built a better setup for whatever you are doing.

Economizer

01-24-2012, 02:28 PM

I don't see people asking white mages to whip out their mauls just because Afflatus Misery and Cura are designed around being in melee range.

It's more like those spells and abilities are generally useless because they'd require a mage to be in melee range.

White Mages that want to melee want to melee regardless of those spells/abilities.

But more importantly, both of those suck, but not because they require being in melee range, but instead because they just suck. Cura III doesn't heal enough to make up for the fact that you can just fulltime Solace and bust out a Penury'd Curaga V for free if the party gets significantly hurt, and even for White Mages that are meleeing, you have to swap into cure potency gear to even cure a decent amount with it.

The only saving graces of the abilities are that Afflatus Misery and Auspice allow you to get ungodly amounts of accuracy - oh wait they nerfed that and Auspice isn't worth casting outside of the Subtle Blow buff. Okay, the only saving graces of the abilities are that you can pop Misery with no penalty once a minute to unnerf Esuna, and Cura is a cheap and fast way to wake up a party.

I might not be articulating this perfectly at the moment, but basically, Afflatus Misery sucks, the effects it has on Auspice sucks, and Cura is underpowered. Afflatus Solace and Cura would be more useful for a Paladin (but would still suck), as would Dagan (why this WS isn't AoE at least on the HP part is beyond me), because they're pretty much tools for a tank. While I've heard of numerous cases of White Mages healing and White Mages doing damage, I've only heard a handful of cases of White Mages willingly tanking (and having to hold a mob because something bad happened doesn't count).

Mageoholic

01-24-2012, 04:19 PM

With Enhancing magic we have to look at what RDM brings to the table VS. other support classes. Yes RDM can heal, haste, cast high level shell/protect, and Phalanx 2 but is this really worth a spot when you could get a WHM to pre-shell/protect and have a SMN,COR, or BRD not only support heal/DD but provide much better performance Enhancements?

You need to look beyond the basic buffs you see at face value. Yes WHM can AoE the same buffs we have and no we are not capable of competing for a party spot based on that. What a WHM can not do however is provide individual buffs that can be job dependent. WHM can boost STR, we can gain DEX, WHM can boost INT, and we can in turn Gain MND them. Not everything in this game is cut and dry one buff fits all jobs equally. A COR or RNG for example would gain more from Gain AGI, then say boost STR, if they were in range of the buff at all.

To the second paragraph, this is why enhancing magic buffs (all of them including haste) need to scale with Enhancing magic skill, if a RDM can provide a 20% haste vs a WHM's 15% haste that is an automatic invite. Currently the enhancing magic skill boost is limited greatly to personal buffs only, there are some that can be AoE'd /SCH but the big one (haste) can not. It is in the same vein as healing magic is with /Cure IV base power being the same as a main jobs cure 4. The issue is compounded further when the best buff in the game is also granted via subjob at full potency, meaning BRD's and SMN's can cure as well as a RDM and provide its most useful buff at the same level.

Lastly I agree that RDM does need more diverse spells to use, but in retrospect we kind of already have the tools that most jobs have Dia III is a 17% attack increase Bio III is a 17% defense increase, Gravity II (if they ever let it land) is a 10% ACC increase, Blind II is a 15% evasion increase. These are similar effects to BRD and COR buffs (madrigal, minuet, mambo, minne, Chaos, Hunter's, Ninja.) and all of these stack with each other.

Again the issue is not that we don't have the tools it is that the tools are either severely limited in application (such as gravity) or are capable of being provided from /RDM (haste, DiaII + Light Shot, Bio II+Dark Shot) or equally represented by other jobs (which do not stack with us) such as NIN's level 44 Kuryami Ni.

So once again it comes back to making RDM the clear cut choice for providing these party wide buffs (or debuffs if you want) currently it is not. (with the exception of Dia III and Bio III which a COR can then extend further than Dia II or Bio II).

I do think RDM does need some other unique buffs, such as fast cast bonus, macc bonus (currently tied to Death Blossom however). But as i said earlier adding things to a shaky foundation is iffy at best.

Here is a comprehensive list of buffs and indirect buffs (debuffs) RDM has for comparison to other jobs

Dia - Attack +
Bio - Defense +
Blind - Evasion +
Gravity - Accuracy +
Haste - ATK speed up
Refresh - MP restoration
Phalanx II - Damage Reduction (magical and physical)
Gain Spells - Single Target Stat +
Temper- DA rate +

All of these stack with similar buffs that jobs like COR, BRD and SMN can provide, however until SE makes these spells work for the whole group, and on current content RDM is left with Refresh II, Dia III and Bio III, everything else can be replaced by another job.

(also just to touch on the AoE aspect, I feel Bar and Pro/Shell should remain WHM AoE only, they have to merit these spells to be better then a RDM and as such it would be sad to see WHM have 2 more useless merit options, It is a similar gripe I have against Kuryami being the same potency as a 5/5 Blind II merit spell.)

Id love to see new buffs/debuffs and secondary abilities (for healing/melee/nuking). But until the foundation of the job is fixed to the point where we are wanted for a group the toys people want to see are gimmicks, that will still likely not get us invites. As you said both go hand in hand, but you need to have the foundation poured before you can build the house.

Mageoholic

01-24-2012, 04:28 PM

Actually SMN kind of doesn't stack with a lot of stuff, but that is a SMN issue for the SMN boards. Although in my opinion these buffs should have had their own unique separation akin to COR and BRD. (their Aura's do though!)

Things RDM does need I think:

A magic defense debuff series (like dia and bio) 5/10/15% (akin to adding 17MAB)
LVL 10/50/90
A magic evasion debuff -25 and -40 (akin to adding 25 MACC, and 40 MACC)
lvl 45/95.

These abilities can be found on DNC, COR and SMN primarily.

Also because I feel rather saucy,
Regain, lvl 99 3TP/tic.

Hi2U COR Regain and Save TP.

Of course that is if you decide to let enfeebles work on mobs, and our buffs to work on allies again. Then again lots did ask to have our casting load dropped so they could swing their swords, you did a damn good job of it, now undo that because we are a Support Mage, and it is time we were allowed to support again. (ironic isn't it that addressing the concerns of the melee crowd to allow for more time to melee in groups actually removed RDM from being invited to groups all together.)

Crimson_Slasher

01-24-2012, 06:07 PM

ManaKing

01-24-2012, 06:44 PM

I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only. You keep talking about things they already said no to and keep going like they are magically going to reverse their standing because you want it. You're still doing this all wrong. You want to work on a foundation, then do it by actually addressing the issue instead of working in some imaginary zone where SE is reasonable and RDM is definitely going to get fixed. Stop assuming things are coming to RDM. You seriously misleading yourself and wasting your time.

Seriha

01-24-2012, 06:53 PM

It just has me thinking WHMs will now get a Pianissimo-like JA that'll turn their AoE buffs into single-targets. That feels more like SE logic there since the AoE issue isn't unlike those BRDs have faced in getting varying buffs on party members.

I still hold out hope for a greater synergy between the abilities we have now to collectively create a better job than individually focusing on WHM, BLM, or WAR tactics to the -X degree for a given encounter, but that would also require greater effort than tweaking a recast timer or even some resist rates.

saevel

01-24-2012, 07:33 PM

idx1

01-25-2012, 12:08 AM

Best enfeeble RDM got is chainspell stunning - not really an enfeeble per-say, but it can make a mob gimp.

Do that one trick! Chainspell stun! Aw, who's a good boy.
owait-they build resistance eventually.

tldr; why rdm?

RDM needs to boost more things unique to them. Such as critical attack rate for themselves and herpaderp others.
Magic attack bonus so they can stack well with other mages. Blue has Plenilune, why can't RDM have something like that owaitusuck.

A Magic Barrier type buff that absorbs magic damage, or a phalanx type for magic damage.
And buffs that overwrite certain debuffs, a more different approach to WHM erase.
Haste II that isn't necessarily more potent in %tage given, but overall buff duration with the ability to overwrite slow/slow ii effects.
When I'm on BLU and a RDM hastes me, I feel dirty. Y u overwrite my 5min with your 3min. Even if you gotta extended duration it will still make me feel dirty and tainted.

And, while under the effect of Composure, Spontaneity should have a chance to be used again immediately.

Oand, gravity II - make it level 40 or someshit so we can use it in BCNMs and make actual good use of it.
"I herd yu like gravity so we put more gravity so you can keep a mob more gravitied".
Don't talk balance when the practical USE of these spells vs the time spent to implement the content itself is UNbalanced kthx.

Enspell II needs to be able to proc more than once per an attack round.
I'll even settle for a chance to proc more than once.

One last thing. Quick magic - ppl are more used to it by now with atma of apoc.
I really don't understand why ppl were against RDM having it as a job trait.

Cuz seriously.
You don't cast fast.

Unless you're talking about - Utsusemi stoneskin Utsusemi stoneskin.
Cuz that life, still sucks.

Feliciaa

01-25-2012, 12:21 AM

You need to look beyond the basic buffs you see at face value. Yes WHM can AoE the same buffs we have and no we are not capable of competing for a party spot based on that. What a WHM can not do however is provide individual buffs that can be job dependent. WHM can boost STR, we can gain DEX, WHM can boost INT, and we can in turn Gain MND them. Not everything in this game is cut and dry one buff fits all jobs equally. A COR or RNG for example would gain more from Gain AGI, then say boost STR, if they were in range of the buff at all.

You have a really valid point here that I did not think about. If the design team was to remove the self-target + no Accession restriction on RDM gain spells it would allow him/her a lot more options on how to buff a group vs. a WHM's Boost-spells. Overall, RDM gains a unique feature with out becoming a lesser version of a WHM.

Things RDM does need I think:

A magic defense debuff series (like dia and bio) 5/10/15% (akin to adding 17MAB)
LVL 10/50/90
A magic evasion debuff -25 and -40 (akin to adding 25 MACC, and 40 MACC)
lvl 45/95.

These abilities can be found on DNC, COR and SMN primarily.

Also because I feel rather saucy,
Regain, lvl 99 3TP/tic.

Hi2U COR Regain and Save TP.

I don't think a magic debuff series would be possible because of how strong a high tier Shell is. But if it was a low % like -5% with a decent Enfeebling skill gear set it might be possible. I'm still not sure how I feel about this one.

I see a magic evasion debuff as being fully possible and a really note worthy spell for RDM. I know DNC has stutter step but it seems very odd that DNC is the only job that can do this (I have no idea if BLU can so if I'm wrong please correct me), when RDM is designed to debuff. I think this spell would increase RDM's invite rate a lot since a RDM would not have to keep stacking it like a DNC.

As for a 3TP/tic Regain.... We can always dream. lol. This would be like refresh was during the 75 cap era. Let the spell stay off a melee for 2 seconds and they start to rage that you're not doing your job. lol

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 01:15 AM

I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only.

You must not know what italics represent in lists, or have read anything I typed earlier. We are talking about what allowing our spells to work allows for please keep up.

I don't think a magic debuff series would be possible because of how strong a high tier Shell is. But if it was a low % like -5% with a decent Enfeebling skill gear set it might be possible. I'm still not sure how I feel about this one.

Shell can be dispelled, all these would do is reduce a mobs resistance to spells (MACC/MEVA) and a jobs defense to spells (MDB). As for the MEVA reduction, there are other jobs who can apply this as well, infact RDM can apply this currently via Death Blossom and Enspell II's. So maybe we don't need an MEVA spell. (other ways to lower resistance are AMII's, Ninjitsu Ele wheel).

And at this point in the game I do not see why we can not have Regain, Cor has 2 different rolls it can provide that offer Regain from 1-5 TP/tick (Companions and Tacticians roll), and with Save TP roll it is clearly not an issue with balance the abilities to regain are in the game, and it would not hurt if another job got them, considering SE allows 25+ TP to be saved on every WS.

Stop assuming things are coming to RDM. You seriously misleading yourself and wasting your time.

Im not assuming things are coming to RDM, or really even asking for things to come to RDM. Everything I have suggested is something RDM already has, and are things other jobs can already do. I am asking SE fix what RDM currently has, I mentioned 2 new debuffs, 1 new buff simply because as I was going through the list of abilities other support jobs had those 3 jumped out at me as something that either several have, or that are currently limited.

tyrantsyn

01-25-2012, 01:20 AM

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 01:37 AM

Mage is just RCD. He's messing with ya'll trying to stir up a debate.

My advice, add him to ignore list and move on, he'll eventually get bored and lurk in the General forum.

Lol says the guy who has followed me around since he found out who I was dry humping my leg, hiding behind an ignore list. Grow up kid. Why don't you put on the big boy pants.

It could be because I am actually interested in seeing a job I played solely for 7 years get the help it needs. It needs to be defined, and it needs a role. The only realistic role is that of a SUPPORT MAGE.

tyrantsyn

01-25-2012, 03:10 AM

I like how Mageoholic talks like Gains are single party target instead of single target self only. .

Actually he could have phrase it better by saying self targeted only. But than he probably didn't think some one would come behind him and take it out of context and try and make him look dum over it. We all know it's self targeted the only person you single out here is yourself trying to make something out of nothing.

Greatguardian

01-25-2012, 03:39 AM

I said "Assuming double attack caps at 50%" and before posting that i had looked on numerous boards/community sites and was unable to see any extensive testing (usually in the under 200 hit test range) So i had just inserted the quite popular cap of 50% (50% PDT/MDT for example, and the cap of -50% recast/cast?) So it was fair for me to insert. If you have a source with substantial testing for double attack rate ranges known to exist, then please direct me toward it. But thats still somewhat irrelevent because a single doubleattack spell isnt ENOUGH of a reason to invite redmage alone, if it were, then you might see summoners actually asked to keep an aura up for their parties.

Except that:

1) PDT and MDT are the only stats that still cap at 50%, and offensive stats like Crit Rate never have to begin with.

2) Making shit up to use as premises for an argument is bad, mmkay?

3) Summoner Auras require keeping the same pet out for a long period of time without using blood pacts in order to reach max potency. Eg, they're utter shit.

4) Byrth has done plenty of DA testing and did the vast majority of Saber Dance testing (and a ton of Temper testing) as it is now. I'm sure if you shoot him a PM on BG he'll be able to link you to his data. Considering he has Saber Dance starting at 50% DA, I highly doubt he'd gloss over a total stat cap at 50%.

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 03:47 AM

Having just read SE's recent announcements on PLD and DRK, it is pretty sad that they can't even stop by and say here is the direction we have in mind for RDM. Honestly updating Shield Bash and Weapon Bash was a priority? what with DNC having violent flourish on a short recast and BLU with their hand full of stuns already.

Would be nice to have some feedback SE. What is the jobs purpose, where do you see it going forward. 8 years of silence is pathetic.

Luvbunny

01-25-2012, 04:37 AM

I think the main problem with RDM as a job is that SE has no idea on what this job should be.

1. If Rdm should be master of enfeebler - this position is easily covered by many other mage jobs. As other posters have mentioned, WHM, SCH, and BLM can cast most of the spells that RDM can and do a good job at it.
2. If Rdm should be master of enhancing - WHM and SCH can do just as good, have access to better spells, and get a lot of AOE spells more so than RDM. Composure only works on RDM self casted spells...which negate the whole point about being a master of enhancing - that only benefits the said RDM but not to the party.
3. If Rdm should be a melee mage - sadly this position is already covered by Blue Mage with far far better spells, some party buffs AOE spells, and much better damage output.
4. If Rdm should be the jack of all trades - well I think SCH pretty much kill this with a rdm set as support job, plus SCH can cure and nuke better than Rdm.
5. If Rdm should be a support job - uhmm hello there, most of RDM spells are SELF casted only and for some spells you cannot even use accession to help the party, plus SCH makes a better support job that complement WHM better than RDM can ever hope. Why would you make a job as support when most of their spells are self target and do not benefit your party members. The day of Refresh and Haste monkey is over - it's time for SE to take a long hard look at this job.

So what is RDM suppose to be? Why SE is taking so long at actually do some tweaking on this job (and Summoner)???? Please stop giving all the good stuffs to Samurai... or White Mage...

Crimson_Slasher

01-25-2012, 05:38 AM

Greatguardian

01-25-2012, 06:43 AM

Greatguardian

#1 Crit damage caps at 50% according to the ranger forums last i checked (while looking into jishnu builds) even if crit rate does not. PDT/MDT cap at 50% (excluding situations where pets are involved). Recasts cap at 50%, Fast cast used to cap at 50%, there is quite a few things that do cap at 50% so it was a fair assumption qualified with "Assuming" not "It does".

#2 STILL Nitpicking the information that is not fully understood by you or me? Sarcasm not appreciated as it does not contribute to your argument. Try some respect because your lack of it is rather tired and old.

#3 This is common knowledge, and while that would lower overall damage yeild, A summoner invited ONLY for double attack auraing and told not to pact would be on the scale of effect of a redmage only invited for temper. In which case again my argument is supported that it might be MORE useful to have a cor providing the double attack roll than a redmage and a corsair. Someone would need to do the math but i still think 3 good DD with more double attack wouldnt beat 4 DD and unless you are going to remove the whitemage from this specific party in that situation and make the redmage and cor double up for heal duty.

#4 This is more useful and thankyou for giving me someone to ask, however even in your statement here you show that you havent seen any information from this source that says a rate over 50% can be achieved. While i dont doubt there is a possability (especially post 75 cap) thats still no concrete evidence.

Additional note; Yes Twilight belt isnt good for monk, but its not exactly bad persay, i use a brown belt because they made it nigh-impossible to get a black belt these days. However if you are capping haste, stacking MORE haste over something that provides other benefits (double attack?) would be a bit of a waste. Not everyone has a blackbelt still and like i said, some monks use them, not all. If you leveled monk and didnt have a black belt, you could have reason to use a t-belt. Or if you do have one and dont need say your leg slot to be that 6% haste, again you could switch it out.

1) Crit damage caps at 100% and the Ranger forums are retarded. They removed the cap on this ages ago.

Recasts are uncapped as of the level 99 patch. Testing has shown that you can break -80% recast. No one's bothered to see if it's an 87.5% cap or not, though. I'm lazy and don't really care since 80%+ is nice enough.

Name the other "few things" that cap at 50%. Nothing does. PDT and MDT only.

2) Who says I don't "fully understand" jack shit? There is no known cap on Double Attack aside from 100%.

3) Nah. Red Mage can actually do its job while also casting Temper. A Summoner has to very specifically not do their job in order to give auras. Also, there is no reason why a Corsair would use Fighter's Roll in the current build of the game period.

4) Last time I read his findings it was pretty clear that DA could go over 50%. I simply don't care enough to go dig them up because someone who still thinks Recast and Crit Damage cap at 50% wants to conjecture about shit he obviously doesn't understand. If you want to make bullshit claims about DA caps, you do the work to back them up - not me.

If you're over-capping Haste with brown, adjust your other TP gear. Twilight is shit. Melee Gloves +2 and Ganesha's Mask are both far superior options to ditching the leg slot. Calmecac are shit. Don't make excuses for shit-tier gear.

Edit: Before I'm called rude one more time, how fair do you think it is to any casual observer reading this thread when you make up some stupid bullshit about DA capping at 50%? How many people do you think might skim this and get the wrong impression, leaving and re-reporting your out-of-nowhere assertion as if it were solid fact?

You yourself quote the "Ranger forums" as a place that told you that Crit Damage caps at 50%. It bloody doesn't. Don't pull shit out of your ass and expect to not get called on it post-haste. It's stupid shit like your "Supposition" that allowed bullshit rumors like "CHR enhances provoke" and "Moon phase affects HQ rate" to survive for so long.

You cannot substitute supposition for fact. When you post blatantly wrong information, you will get called out. Yes, it's your bloody job to prove it.

Crimson_Slasher

01-25-2012, 07:51 AM

Looked it up, crit damage caps at 100%, my mistake, recast however according to wiki has not changed, unless you mean cast time.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Recast_Time

As for everything else, honestly, i just dont care about your opinion anymore. You're behaving like a child throwing a temper tantrum, detracting the thread once again, slinging insults and frankly, im done with your garbage personality. I think i will take a piece of advice and block you, not because you dissagree with me but id rather have someone who can dissagree with me without spitting all over themselves and getting into a keyboard pounding, gorilla rage.

uMad to the nth degree. Take a few dozen chill pills and stop posting for a week or something.

I couldnt have said it better. Thanks for providing the perfect quote to take out of context.

Neisan_Quetz

01-25-2012, 08:04 AM

Lolwiki is lol. There's a reason it's updated infrequently and is missing new information.

Get your facts sorted then you won't get called out for posting wrong info.

Crimson_Slasher

01-25-2012, 08:21 AM

Getting called out helps me learn new information that has changed or that i didnt know for sure. Getting called out and then treated like shit for it doesnt help me learn anything and just makes me lose faith in my peers on ffxi and the internet.

Neisan_Quetz

01-25-2012, 10:26 AM

Should have abandoned hope a long time ago.

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 01:43 PM

I think the main problem with RDM as a job is that SE has no idea on what this job should be.

This is exactly the problem, and it stems in large part from the RDM community. Large in part to the fact that melee conversation eventually takes over every thread and delves into a no you can't yes I can pissing contest. (I am quite surprised this thread has managed to survive this long tbh) Our community lacks the ability to present a clear focus to the issues surrounding this job.

The issue I personally have and I think other RDM's should have is trying to ask for boosts in areas that are already clogged with jobs, namely melee and nuking. (SE has already stated that they are adjusting healing as a whole which while it does buff WHM, it will also give SCH and RDM that boost they need, if they do it properly).

This leaves Enfeebling and Enhancing, which really go hand in hand with each other, however both systems are broken currently. Enfeebling in general, and Enhancing with SE restricting our ability to buff.

This is why I made this thread because it is in my opinion the only place where RDM can truly be balanced in party play, and most importantly attain a party slot. By adjusting Enhancing and Enfeebling as suggested in the original post it puts RDM on a pedestal over WHM and BLM, (who are also on their own pedestals) and indirectly buffs SCH to move above these jobs in this regard as well. It also puts RDM on a pedestal over SCH, who in turn is better at healing and nuking.

Considering all of out abilities stack with other support it does not step on the toes of your COR's BRD's or DNC'
s, and to an extent SMN's (who have their own issues.)

As a community we have to get behind one solid idea and keep blasting SE with it, I have little faith in that occurring, and I am not saying my Idea is the one to go with. I just feel it is the best opportunity to see us wanted for group play again, because I am 99% sure we won't get that slot with better melee, nuking, or healing, and if we do get buffed to that point, you can bet your ass a shit storm will be brewing in the WHM, BLM, SCH, <insert other nuking class, healing class, melee class here> forums. Which will result in a nerf, or subsequent buffs to those classes that will put us back in the same spot.

A BRD or COR or DNC won't care if we can buff/debuff because our support spells stack with theirs, the only one who might take issue with it is SMN, but this adjustment I laid out doesn't really change the impact SMN already feels for the worse, SMN is in a shitty spot already and it won't change if RDM is more capable enhancer and debuffer since SMn doesn't stack currently anyway.

But ya, we need to give SE a clear idea of what we want, I feel making us the king of support mages is what we need.

ManaKing

01-25-2012, 04:26 PM

You have a really valid point here that I did not think about. If the design team was to remove the self-target + no Accession restriction on RDM gain spells it would allow him/her a lot more options on how to buff a group vs. a WHM's Boost-spells. Overall, RDM gains a unique feature with out becoming a lesser version of a WHM.

Yeah too bad that isn't going to happen. A lot of what if and not a lot of actual substance. You guys just don't read the Dev posts or something?

You must not know what italics represent in lists, or have read anything I typed earlier. We are talking about what allowing our spells to work allows for please keep up.

Oh ok that makes everything more clear. You just don't want to look at what dev's are posting and only want to talk about what you think they should do. Excellent. So you just don't pay attention.

Having just read SE's recent announcements on PLD and DRK, it is pretty sad that they can't even stop by and say here is the direction we have in mind for RDM. Honestly updating Shield Bash and Weapon Bash was a priority? what with DNC having violent flourish on a short recast and BLU with their hand full of stuns already.

Would be nice to have some feedback SE. What is the jobs purpose, where do you see it going forward. 8 years of silence is pathetic.

See you are starting to get it. Most of us have been here for the last year. Lots of crickets. Not a lot of updates. Lots of in-fighting.

Should have abandoned hope a long time ago.

Love you <3

Crimson_Slasher

01-25-2012, 05:12 PM

Well mage actually, a lot of people have gotten behind the "copy all active buffs on the rdm to a party member" idea, or have come to that conclusion on their own terms, that could be our driving force. It would force cycles, yet at the same time be less tedius because it would be 1 cycle that grants all the buffs, rather than cycling haste/temper/refresh/etc. It would also do away with the need to cast single aoe of each spell or single target versions, though it would be harder to offer specialized buff packages, when everyone gets regen II, refresh II, phalanx, stoneskin, aquaveil, a gainspell, temper, protect and shell (maybe) and enspell, haste, and possibly 2 barspells, its hard to complain. And if there was a buff that wasnt wanted (enspell?) They could remove it themselves.

I dunno who came up with it first, i know i was one of the earlier ones to suggest it back but someone likely beat me to it, but it seems like a lot of us like it. Maybe thats what we need to push for, and right now more than ever since theyre taking a look at each job and making changes.

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 05:42 PM

See you are starting to get it. Most of us have been here for the last year. Lots of crickets. Not a lot of updates. Lots of in-fighting.

Well I guess its a good thing Ive been dealing with it for 7 years then isn't it...

Well mage actually, a lot of people have gotten behind the "copy all active buffs on the rdm to a party member" idea, or have come to that conclusion on their own terms, that could be our driving force.

I don't like this idea because again it carries with it the limitations of not buffing others. Not everyone benefits from the same spells, and an ability like this would hardly be on a short timer (at best 10 minute minimum akin to BLU AoE JA). I am not opposed to the idea of being able to AoE buffs, but we have a few great "buffs" that are AoE in nature.

Dia III is AoE ATK + for anyone able to attack the mob
BIO III is AoE DEF + for anyone able to be attacked by the mob
Gravity is AoE ACC + for anyone able to attack the mob
Blind is AoE evasion + for anyone able to be attacked by the mob
Enpell II's is AoE Meva - (elemental dependant) for anyone casting on the mob
Death Blosom is AoE Meva - (all elements) for anyone casting on the mob

I like the premise of the idea, but I just can't see it being introduced functionally. Especially considering the amount of benefit we already give on the mob, not just to the party, or ally, but to anyone who can attack it. (again providing SE fixes enfeebling, and enhancing.)

I would like to see Haste and Refresh I (at least) AoE'd, simply because SCH now has access to those, and it would leave the choice of Refresh II to the RDM, and TBH some jobs just don't benefit from Refresh like others, and could live with a refresh 1. It would allow WHM to benefit as well, and if SE did allow RDM to cap haste higher than other jobs then it would give us even more reason to be invited.

The only buffs we cycle are haste and refresh with potentially gain and temper looking at 8 seconds per specific party member, or around 48 seconds (worst case assuming 4 buffs per person) every 5 minutes or so. With 6 debuffs you are looking at about a minute casting ever 5 minutes, leaving you 4 minutes to do other things such as melee, nuke, heal.

4 minutes is a lot of time.

Crimson_Slasher

01-25-2012, 06:23 PM

Agreed but its still a widely supported idea, something already a lot have gotten behind, and if we make it clear how we need/want it (perhaps make it into a charge system or something?) then we can have a better management of it. And yeah not all jobs need refresh, but not all jobs need temper in the same situation, but a war would get both as would a whm, so its kinda win/win, with the only hitch being when it comes to the gains needing to be personalized, but in some instances, those can be changed between casts. And even if the recast was long, i dunno, maybe being able to supercharge a DD or tank throughout the battle would be pretty handy, maybe earn us a slot in tank parties in events. Just brainstorming.

Seriha

01-25-2012, 06:40 PM

As long as this jazzed up idea of "Support Mage" involves no concept of melee integration, I will not be for it. Cry about derails, epeens, or how it always inevitably comes up, but when there is no incentive to be swinging with a party, the job is not matching its concept and can more easily be replaced by another job with their higher tiers on spells, AoEs, or spells/abilities RDM doesn't even get at all. Meanwhile, one should not be looking to BLUs as a sudden brick wall for RDM progression or even a RDM substitute. They're just different paths to the same goal in a combat caster like MNK and WAR are DDs of their own flavor.

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 06:46 PM

Personally ive never been a fan of AoE on RDM, if it is allowed with enhancing then why can we not do it with enfeebling, or nuking or healing.

I actually thought of a charge based system at work today based on enfeebling but talked myself out of it simply because we already have such a system in place currently that SE is restricting. Like I said above the only spells that would really benefit from AoE are haste and refresh. I mean cor and brd have these...

But they are also limited to the buffs they can apply, the short list of AoE buffs we have is already larger then a standard BRD or COR, adding even more on I think is to much (asking for accession is probably to much). COR and BRD (the other primary support jobs are limited in the buffs they can cast. Considering we already have more secondary tools then either job, and require less upkeep then BRD, and that our buffs are able to be cancelled should we not want them (expcept debuff buff's) I just don't think that the idea is practical. I think Accession is the answer and limited to spells a SCH has access to (Haste Refresh I).

I don't mean to sound discouraging or pig headish, but I just can not see a reason to argue for something that has limited use or is impractical. Especially in the current BALANCE craze. BRD's and COR's would not be happy with us supplying 4+ AoE buffs when they can only only do 4 and 2 (respectively).

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 06:54 PM

As long as this jazzed up idea of "Support Mage" involves no concept of melee integration, I will not be for it.

Then argue for melee improvements, and the join the list of SAM, WAR, MNK, DRG, DRK, THF, NIN, DNC, BST, PUP, RNG fighting for a party slot as a DD. Being a support mage opens up our access to secondary skills in the past this defaulted us to backline duties only, but RDM can easily cap haste, can cap ACC, can hit ATK levels similar to other one handers, has a much smaller casting load thanks to AFv3 and higher fast cast tier.

All of our secondary skill sets are supported by the support mage idea now, the most important aspect being, actually being invited to an event as a RDM. (and not just to proc bitch it.)

Being the best support mage id rather compete with a spot with nobody, and apply my secondary sklls (healing nuking melee) as I deem required from there.

Haldarn

01-25-2012, 08:20 PM

Agreed but its still a widely supported idea, something already a lot have gotten behind, and if we make it clear how we need/want it (perhaps make it into a charge system or something?) then we can have a better management of it.
Yeah, this is what I was getting at on page four. I'm in support of this and agree it might be an idea to thrash it out between the community to get it in a workable form (ie easy to implement and effective for the job).

As long as this jazzed up idea of "Support Mage" involves no concept of melee integration, I will not be for it.
How about then this proposed idea of "self-buff to single-target party member enhancement transfer" is activated with TP rather than a JA with an unsatisfactory cooldown timer or an additional Charges system? That way it's still something you can do if you're back-line and not changing your staff (only a limited restriction for a single TP build), but encourages the quicker TP building performed whilst meleeing.

Seriha

01-25-2012, 10:16 PM

I won't sit here and say there's a single way to pull it off, but a past idea of mine involved letting enspell damage build into a pool similar to Solace boosting divine nukes with Cures or even Cura being boosted by the WHM taking damage. In this case, I also wanted to create two styles, one pandering to a RDM wishing to be more offensive through boosting the potency of enfeebles and nukes, while the more defensive style would boost the potency and duration of all buffs.

For example, some people want Haste II. As a standalone spell, I don't want it because it does little to address RDM's overall issues. Would it be handy? Sure. Now, let's say with the above, having 75 points of Enspell damage built up would boost Haste to 20% potency with a 6 minute duration. That'll roughly translate to 3 good hits from a RDM with capped skill, be it T1s or T2s. From a grossly simplistic level, you could just have Enspell damage build points like DNC steps regardless of damage done. Either way, if you want the RDM's spells to make the party even better, the RDM can't just be chillin' in the back rarely exposing themselves to risk. Even if their hit-for-hit damage never competes with a WAR, they'll still want to be as best as possible while offering their supportive benefits brought about their engagement.

Now, the offensive end would function similarly, with a fully buffed Slow II being more like a Slow III if SE were to ever add it. My ideal when translating to nukes is to be close to a maxed magian staff in potency. As a result, the staves will still be better, but we're not so depressingly behind in damage if we opt to keep our TP generating weapon equipped, which also handles the problem of TP being lost when swapping that often cripples our hybrid style.

But the big point here is it has to be worth it. It has to do enough to offset arguments of poor damage and TP feed. It has to do enough to warrant a party slot. I still stand behind the belief the job needs gear better tailored for its diversity, and I'm not talking about watered down junk where you're better off having Uber Mage Armor and Uber Melee Armor anyway. If it's something a job needs to perform its role, don't hold back.

The only reason the above is likely to never happen is because it would require some genuine effort on SE's part to pull off. It while require them going through virtually every spell in RDM's arsenal and modify them to differ based on their "stance" chosen. I also noted increasing durations on the defensive side because once you're done doling out the buffs (even better with the +2 set), you can hop over to being more offensive until it comes time to rebuff.

Otherwise, I can go back in time and lament about how we wanted something similar to SCH's Immanence stratagem or Accession/Diffusion. Or how some of DNC's JAs would've been nice for us if the job didn't exist. But they do and they're not going anywhere. Overall, I have no interest in repeating RDM's old days as a pink mage, and become wary of that whenever backline adjustments are the sole point of interest with the assumption it would fix all the job's ills. RDM's melee game was an issue long before the cap increases. And while it's unfortunate it took other jobs growing more readily while RDM stagnated for people to share my sentiment that the job wasn't that awesome, some of the cards SE played (Enfeebling crashing as a consequence of solo abuse) were just salt on the wound.

ManaKing

01-26-2012, 06:40 AM

but RDM can easily cap haste, can cap ACC, can hit ATK levels similar to other one handers, has a much smaller casting load thanks to AFv3 and higher fast cast tier.

Where did you get similar levels of atk when we have Bs and everyone else has As?

I won't argue on easily capping haste, because it's really not hard to figure out how to do it. But compared to other jobs it is actual effort unless you are content with a Zelus Tiara...which I'm not since you are wasting a slot on nothing but haste. Head Brisk and Brego are both much nicer versions of head pieces but require an Ephemeron or Aug'd Blood Scale Mail to get a decent TP set.

If you want to make me happy, go look at Rubeus Spats and then make all of RDM follow that mold.

Neisan_Quetz

01-26-2012, 07:42 AM

Calmecac Trousers beats Rubeus unless you're having accuracy issues.

I won't argue on easily capping haste, because it's really not hard to figure out how to do it. But compared to other jobs it is actual effort unless you are content with a Zelus Tiara...which I'm not since you are wasting a slot on nothing but haste. Head Brisk and Brego are both much nicer versions of head pieces but require an Ephemeron or Aug'd Blood Scale Mail to get a decent TP set.

If you want to make me happy, go look at Rubeus Spats and then make all of RDM follow that mold.

Wasting a slot on just haste... seriously did you just write that...

Mageoholic

01-26-2012, 01:26 PM

How about then this proposed idea of "self-buff to single-target party member enhancement transfer" is activated with TP rather than a JA with an unsatisfactory cooldown timer or an additional Charges system? That way it's still something you can do if you're back-line and not changing your staff (only a limited restriction for a single TP build), but encourages the quicker TP building performed whilst meleeing.

Thought about this TP thing today at work and I don't think it is a good idea, not the effect itself but horse shoeing the job into one role is restrictive. This would force people to melee a job, and not everyone likes to melee, in a sense it is a reverse of forcing people into a backline only role, instead it forces people into a front line only role in order to apply buffs.

Again it comes down to base principle, and at the root of it all is the fact we have some nice buffs that are unable to be cast, and some nice debuffs that are all or nothing or immune outright. In order to discuss new abilities or improved abilities RDM first needs its current abilities to work, when that happens more avenues will be open to the job, mostly because we will actually get a party slot based on preforming a role. From there we can find out what we need to be better in group play.

Getting invites based on the job being useful should be our first priority, streamlining that usefulness is something we do after, who knows there might not be a problem at all, at least from my number crunching we are looking at 1 minute every 5 spent casting buffs/debuffs, 20% is not that bad, it is a lot better then the 33% time spent at level 75, when we were still capable of providing healing, nuking and melee on top of buffing debuffing.

Where did you get similar levels of atk when we have Bs and everyone else has As?

Similar does not mean the same, it means it shares a likeness, I can break 600ATK on my RDM, I can also break 600 ATK on my PLD, I can cap haste on my RDM, I can cap haste on my PLD, I can cap ACC on my RDM I can cap ACC on my PLD. A skills are not that far ahead, 26 ATK is the difference from A+ to B, it is a marginal advantage.

But my PLD can't nuke, my PLD can barely heal, my PLD can't buff, my PLD can't debuff. So Ill happily call 398 Skill vs 424 skill balance, at least until my PLD can start shooting laser beams from its ass for 1.2K DMG.

Also Scat man...haste is statistically the best stat, and if gravity were to work on mobs we wouldn't have to worry about ACC basically ever. No job would really outside of natural skill, incidental dex and acc on gear, just the way it should be.

Economizer

01-26-2012, 02:51 PM

at least until my PLD can start shooting laser beams from its ass for 1.2K DMG

Divine Emblem + Holy II.

ManaKing

01-26-2012, 03:09 PM

Calmecac Trousers beats Rubeus unless you're having accuracy issues.

Wasting a slot on just haste... seriously did you just write that...

The item itself has a large variety of different stats that aren't overpowered when you put them together because they don't mult each other but it still allows you to have a lot of what you want. I'm not giving up my 'cac Trousers just because they make me look like an indian, much less how awesome they are.

And yes I did say waste a slot on only haste, when you could cap haste with other equipment and get more stats, like STR, DEX, atk, acc, or Store TP.

RDM is already missing good equipment. No reason to waste even more equipment that you do have because you are wasting a slot on something you could have had more stats on.

ManaKing

01-26-2012, 03:13 PM

Also Scat man...haste is statistically the best stat, and if gravity were to work on mobs we wouldn't have to worry about ACC basically ever. No job would really outside of natural skill, incidental dex and acc on gear, just the way it should be.

Can't disagree on that, but I'm just saying that RDM has low Atk and Enspells don't work on WSs. Inferior by design isn't something I just say all the time, it's what's wrong with RDM right now. We don't have anything to make up for lack of higher tier spells or lower skill proficiency. They forgot to give us those. Thus why we are behind.

Mageoholic

01-26-2012, 03:40 PM

RDM attack is no different then other 1 handers, and our gearing options are very similar, we have the same ACC for the most part (a difference 11) which means we are either all eating Mear (or buns) all eating pizza, or all eating sushi. RDM is statistically identical for the most part to other 1 handers. The biggest issue is that for swords we are dependent on CDC (being left off Vorpal, and to an extent Sanguine hurts) and are limited in our choice of daggers (RDM caps off I think at 41 D dagger, while even BRD can get the 50DMG DGRs with STR and ATK on them.)

This isn't a job issue really, this is SE being retarded and forgetting the RDM has 2 primary melee choices. Of course they will probably tell you its balance. One weapon requires an EMP to be useful, and the other is useful but has no solid dagger options other than maybe Twilight.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, but a RDM doesn't need to gear any differently then other 1 handers, and we are all about the same place stat wise, and gear wise (sans weapons.)

and before you reply I mean to say when i type "no different" as arguing over a fraction of a % in damage increase is retarded. During the TP phase Enspell/Enspell II's put RDM over the top of other sword users and nearly on par with other dagger users, its in WSD we are limited (enspells not working, our access to stat specific equipment for WS mods on swords, and our daggers lacking the same base D as other users.) Then again we can technically gear swap to a 2K MB, if we bothered to skill chain at all anymore. Meaning we can technically do more damage over the course of a WS cycle than most jobs, but paper doesn't equal reality. Unfortunately SE knows that we have the ability to do this which is why you will likely not see RDM put on comparable gear and WS's to other sword users, or on daggers with other dagger users. It sucks, but its the direction we as a community chose.

But since SE has their Zerg hard on from ToAU still this will likely never change. Unless SE themselves make content require a steady methodical kill at which point SC's greatly increase kill speed (as seen in old distortion parties).

Mageoholic

01-26-2012, 04:23 PM

Also to clarify the OP some.

I don't think RDM is in a (terribly) bad spot (it is still a great job), and this isn't intended solely for RDM fixes. This as I mentioned is in the same vein as Healing Skill allowing jobs with native healing magic skill to surpass those who are using it as a subjob, a /WHM or /RDM healing for the same HP as a main WHM or RDM with C4 is stupid.

It is equally stupid that a /WHM or /RDM can buff or debuff (with enough MACC which is abundant on BRD for example) as well as these jobs (for the most part I understand that some spells are going to land a bit stronger but we are talking minimal % difference).

This is what this idea is meant to convey, the fact that a job casting spells with half the skill of a main job is matching (or nearly) matching the potential of the main job.

/SCH is fine, and should allow support jobs the ability to get higher skill, it is fine because /SCH doesn't really have any buffs/debuffs worth mentioning.

The fact that certain buffs and debuffs are restricted is just a slap in the face, the fact that these buffs/debuffs (indirect buffs in the case of Gravity) are available on other jobs (and can stack with RDM spells) is just a kick in the balls.

Neisan_Quetz

01-26-2012, 09:18 PM

The item itself has a large variety of different stats that aren't overpowered when you put them together because they don't mult each other but it still allows you to have a lot of what you want. I'm not giving up my 'cac Trousers just because they make me look like an indian, much less how awesome they are.

And yes I did say waste a slot on only haste, when you could cap haste with other equipment and get more stats, like STR, DEX, atk, acc, or Store TP.

RDM is already missing good equipment. No reason to waste even more equipment that you do have because you are wasting a slot on something you could have had more stats on.

I use Dual wield ACP body that's probably why. You won't cap haste with it without Ephemeron/NQ sword but you can get close, but I've stopped counting how often I've not gotten phasmida belt from Kaggen. Might just end up looking for a N Sash/find that JP trying to sell Speed Belt.

ShadowViper

02-03-2012, 07:32 AM

My whole issue with the mage aspect of RDM is we really are only there for refresh and to help haste. Yes back in the day we could main heal but at the cost of taking away from the role of a WHM. Magic skill wise we should be the definetive answer for enhancing and enfeebling but that really doesn't show again past 2 spells. Like its been said many times all our enfeebles can be done by multiple other jobs and most our enahcning is self cast only. So the problem is how to balance RDM against the other mages, personally I think its a simple solution for balancing the 4 main mage jobs but leads to some reworking on older thinking.

First lets look at the starting mages and what their focus in a party should be:

WHM- This job seems pretty straight forward its main skill is healing with its secondary mage skill in divine. We already see that this job has the best Cure spells available and the only job that natively gets ga version of those spells for healing. We also see that it gets a variety of divine spells that some are only a pld shares naturally get. WHM's are always invited for healing, removals, and with procs now even for the use of their divine nukes (which should be fixed to be more useful past just this).

BLM- Agains straight forward for its main skill - elemental - this is the nuking go to job. There is a wide variety of AOE versions of various nuke spells and its the only job that gets this naturally. Its secondary skill is dark magic which has a few more useful spells than divine but lacks the amount of spells available as divine.

RDM- Main skill is enfeebling, secondary is enchancing. As for our main skill ALL enfeebs except merit spells are available to other jobs. The only AOE version we get naturally is diaga (which should be divine to balance with bio). As for enhancing most of our enhancing spells are self casted only giving them no benifit to a party situation.

What i find interesting is that when you need buffs from the above jobs we don't go to the highest rated enhancing skill job we go to whms since they offer AOE versions of enhancing magic too. As for crowd control, which is usually an enfeeblers job in general MMO sense, we usually look for a BLM with its sleepga spells and now breakga.

So yes ofcourse RDMs when they found a niche at being solid healers were going to take that path back in the day because we really didn't stand out for what our natural skills say we should be doing because of the imbalance of where the spells went.

So the proposed changes to fix this would be:
Enfeebles- First and foremost fix resistance/potency, Give AOE versions including breakga/sleepga to RDM exclusively this would give us a defined main role in a party. (FIX DIA to be divine giving whm first go and the higher tiers/aoe versions for balance continuity) (give BLM AOE STUN)

Some may argue with RDM having aoe enfeebles would make it too strong as a soloer, but I argue how is a RDM with it any worst than a Job that can crowd control then NUKE that whole crowd. Personally I think BLM with AOE sleep/break and AOE nukes is overpowered always have (yes im a blm).

Enhancing- Again move all AOE enahcing spells to be RDM exclusive and allow more of our self target spells to be party/alliance castable (not outside group to prevent us from being the 19th member in an alliance casting from outside - kirin burns sigh). Bar spells on WHM should be single target only not self.

This would again help us have a reason to be in parties and as for balance with brds and cors our buffs are different than those that they can provide.

The above would give clearly set the roles of the basic mages regardless of subjob choice-
WHM - Healer + status removal + divine nuker
BLM - Elemental or Dark based Nuker + Elemental enfeebler (would love to see more of these)
RDM- Crowd control Enfeebler and group buffer

So where does this put the fourth mage job SCH
As it is now this is the best DOT mage job with helix, regain and the new REGEN reform but also SCH is the second closest replacement for any of the above jobs above but can't do any of the above main roles as good as the mains and would even have to set specific subs to fill in some of the roles. It can do various AOE versions but only with the use of an ability and is limited to what spells it can AOE.

And in a worst case situation where the main roles can't be covered by the jobs mentioned above and there is no sch to cover each of those jobs have the ability to help cover but not nearly as effeciently whm could do single target buffs, and some single target enfeebs, blm can cast some single target enfeebs, and rdm can help cure or help nuke. So each of these jobs have methods to help support the others but they can't completely take over on a constant basis.