Ok...let me level with you here SE...

[Alerith]

I understand you have your own twisted idea of what balance is. I understand you can justify just about everything you've done in some way or another. But in another thread, I typed out this mockup quote:

"Your 99 +1 Almace is the exact same as my 99 Almace. Oh wait! Yours gives ME a bonus!"

And as I finished typing it, I realized more and more how this makes absolutely NO sense. There isn't a shred of logic here.

You've stated that a Level 99 R/M/E will have the same damage, delay and effect as a level 99 R/M/E with afterglow.

You've also stated that the afterglow will effect everyone EXCEPT the wielder.

You've also stated that the trial for said afterglow is going to be absurd enough so that only a few players actually get it.

My question is very simple: Why?

If Player A has a 99 Almace and Player B has a 99 Almace, they are on even ground. If Player A goes and does the insane trial for 99 Almace +1, PLAYER B reaps the reward.

"Oh, but Player A gets to glow!"

Big freakin' whoop. When it comes down to combat, your glow ain't gonna do squat while the rest of the party reaps the afterglow effect and your years of insane trial questing has left you in exactly the same place you were years ago.

From this perspective, it's actually more beneficial to me if I just stand around a few years doing NOTHING, and wait to get the benefit of someone else's afterglow.

I've twisted logic as much as I can for your past actions. But this...I can't even truly comprehend WHY you're doing it this way.

[Krashport]

I understand you have your own twisted idea of what balance is. I understand you can justify just about everything you've done in some way or another. But in another thread, I typed out this mockup quote:

"Your 99 +1 Almace is the exact same as my 99 Almace. Oh wait! Yours gives ME a bonus!"

And as I finished typing it, I realized more and more how this makes absolutely NO sense. There isn't a shred of logic here.

You've stated that a Level 99 R/M/E will have the same damage, delay and effect as a level 99 R/M/E with afterglow.

You've also stated that the afterglow will effect everyone EXCEPT the wielder.

You've also stated that the trial for said afterglow is going to be absurd enough so that only a few players actually get it.

My question is very simple: Why?

If Player A has a 99 Almace and Player B has a 99 Almace, they are on even ground. If Player A goes and does the insane trial for 99 Almace +1, PLAYER B reaps the reward.

"Oh, but Player A gets to glow!"
PLAYER B better step up their game because their LOL.

[Arcon]

And as I finished typing it, I realized more and more how this makes absolutely NO sense. There isn't a shred of logic here.

There is, actually. This is a MMORPG. It's meant to be played with other people. Having an AoE effect will help your party and thus help you. For people wanting epeen, this is useless (even counterproductive), for people wanting efficiency and a weapon that will help their party, linkshell and friends, and by extension themselves, this is pretty cool. If only the AoE effect wasn't sucky, that is, but that's another issue altogether. There's nothing wrong with the logic behind this. And if it's at all doable in the future I'll also try to get to this point.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

This is a MMORPG. It's meant to be played with other people.Such is not the deffinition of an MMO sadly. Most are simply just people playing the same thing.

[Alerith]

There is, actually. This is a MMORPG. It's meant to be played with other people. Having an AoE effect will help your party and thus help you. For people wanting epeen, this is useless (even counterproductive), for people wanting efficiency and a weapon that will help their party, linkshell and friends, and by extension themselves, this is pretty cool. If only the AoE effect wasn't sucky, that is, but that's another issue altogether. There's nothing wrong with the logic behind this. And if it's at all doable in the future I'll also try to get to this point.

I certainly understand what you're saying and I agree that any righteous player can make use of this for others. But the effect is so underwhelming, the trial is (currently) absurd and in all honesty, the level 99 weapon without afterglow wielded by one guy can help many more people in the time it would take for the other guy to take his friends/shell out to finish his 99 with afterglow.

To make the whole thing relevant, either the effect needs to be better or the trial needs to be toned down considerably. Right now, there's no real incentive for a player to want to do it. If they want it for Epeen, as you said, it would be useless or counter-productive. For someone wanting to help out others, they would be able to help more people out without the afterglow because of the amount of time you'd have to sacrifice getting to it.

I haven't taken an economics course, but I've heard a bit about this whole Diminishing Returns thing. Where if you increase one thing too much, it decreases the overall output. Right now, the trial is so overwhelming with such a minimal reward, they're destroying the usefulness of it compared to a non-afterglow weapon. Sure, you got afterglow and helped out X number of people. But how many people did you have to use, or turn away, or ignore, to get to that point?

[Arcon]

Such is not the deffinition of an MMO sadly. Most are simply just people playing the same thing.

I'm not saying it's the definition, I'm saying it's meant to. Which is obvious, if you consider the scale of certain events (minimum player entrance requirement, for example, or even events allowing up to 64 members and encouraging 18+). Sure, you can play solo for some of its content (lately possibly most of its content), but that wasn't the design. As such, the logic behind gearing towards multiplayer-efficiency isn't a fallacy on SE's part.


To make the whole thing relevant, either the effect needs to be better or the trial needs to be toned down considerably. Right now, there's no real incentive for a player to want to do it.

Right now, no one knows what the trial is. People are just bitching about unconfirmed test server information. Which isn't bad in itself, it shows SE how pissed off people are already and will hopefully result in them not considering such a ridiculous trial. I agree if it's like it is now when they release it, no one will do it. But again, that's another issue altogether. The idea of enhancing one person to support their party isn't wrong in itself, if executed correctly. It's all on SE now to show us if they know how to do it correctly (I'm guessing not, but I won't judge before it's released).

[VoiceMemo]

Actually when 99 relics/emp are thought of this way, that 2nd half of lvl 99 only makes sense for Gjallarhorn and Daurdabla. They have always been about buffing those around them. The fact that they may not get afterglow is kindof ironic. Granted yes trigger would probably have to be every X amount of songs, or X combo of songs or something brand new. In a way the weapons are acquiring what was once horn and harp only.

[Anewie]

I agree with the op, wtf at this trial?

This is absurb. Please delete this trial and stop trolling. The fact the op in the other thread said... this trial would be sought after by elites, they are delusional.

Nobody wants to be special so badly theyd put up with 300 ADLs so they can glow. Come on people... Who have you been playing with that is that silly/epeen hungry?

In B4 INSANIAK/GG come in after me, lol.

[Insaniac]

My question is why you would want them to make a trial that is a huge buff to a weapon that you would never complete?

The reasoning is simple. Some people want rewards in a reasonable time frame. Some people want a feel of exclusivity. These trials kinda cater to both. Sure they don't get to feel superior because they do some insane thing that other people can't but they do get to freaking glow. It's just a trophy. That's all it should be. It's there to keep people who need proof of how hardcore they are happy without alienating the vast majority of people who just want their weapon.

Edit: I've already seen people excited about the trial. Those people as I said are clearly insane but that's what they wanted and they got it and they are happy.

[Anewie]

My question is why you would want them to make a trial that is a huge buff to a weapon that you would never complete?

The reasoning is simple. Some people want rewards in a reasonable time frame. Some people want a feel of exclusivity. These trials kinda cater to both. Sure they don't get to feel superior because they do some insane thing that other people can't but they do get to freaking glow. It's just a trophy. That's all it should be. It's there to keep people who need proof of how hardcore they are happy without alienating the vast majority of people who just want their weapon.

Edit: I've already seen people excited about the trial. Those people as I said are clearly insane but that's what they wanted and they got it and they are happy.

I'm more concerned with the logic behind it. You mentioned exclusivity, do you know the definition of it? There is nothing exclusive about glowing or offering very small buffs for your party. If it's so exclusive, why don't you want to do it?

Also.. I will agree with you.. those people are crazy lol. I'd like to know who they are because I'm seriously doubting they either exist or are serious.

Sounds like you got trolled tbh.

[Insaniac]

There is nothing exclusive about glowing or offering very small buffs for your party.

The exclusivity is that 1/10000 people will do the trial. That's pretty exclusive. I don't care about exclusivity. I just want to do as much damage with my dagger as I possibly can.

[Alerith]

The exclusivity is that 1/10000 people will do the trial. That's pretty exclusive. I don't care about exclusivity. I just want to do as much damage with my dagger as I possibly can.

This is precisely my point. If you don't mind, I'd like to use you as an example.

You want to do as much damage with your dagger as you can. In that case, you have no reason to do the afterglow trial. Some other R/M/E wielder crazy enough to do the trial in it's current form can do the work and you'll get the benefit in a few years.

As was stated earlier by Arcon, that's fine for someone who does the trial specifically to help others. But can you honestly see anyone doing a trial this crazy just for a part buff? I can't even see many of the "hardcore elitists" doing this trial for something that, at the moment, isn't worth getting.

[Insaniac]

I don't think anyone would do it for the buff. I think people will attempt to do it because of the feeling of accomplishment that comes with having something so few other people have. That's really all that matters to a lot of people.

[Arcon]

There is nothing exclusive about glowing or offering very small buffs for your party.

Yes, there is. You don't seem to understand what "exclusive" means. It doesn't have to be good to be exclusive. It's a status of something unique.


I don't think anyone would do it for the buff. I think people will attempt to do it because of the feeling of accomplishment that comes with having something so few other people have. That's really all that matters to a lot of people.

This. The buffs don't warrant the trial. It's not something people will do to improve, it's something they'll do (or die trying) to stand out.

[Vold]

Afterglow effect will be a cool twist! Just think of it.... it helps your comrades BUT NOT YOU! Well, no it's not cool, but maybe on Krypton...

Remember that as far as the current known stats go, stage 1 for the stat boost, stage 2 for glow. And there almost certainly will be an additional perk to doing stage 2 because not even SE believes many will complete it so it's not like they're banking on everyone getting it done and helping each other out with their aura.


Additional planned features, such as equipment-specific magic spells and pets, have been postponed to allow for more thorough testing concerning attributes, the number of potential users and the process by which to obtain them. One consideration is whether to implement such features as another stage of the above upgrades, or to apply them to a different set of equipment. Also under deliberation is whether to limit the availability of such equipment or make it relatively simple to obtain.We are so quick to forget details. But let's be real - I'll shit my pants if there's a stage #3 and it ends up including spells we haven't had access to, ranging from meteor to san to elegy to somethings RDM and SCH can use. I really hope this is one time they didn't read and it's not my fault that I uttered the idea "spells on relic weapons" and doomed us to never owning those spells. This is one time they had better already thought it up themselves because I might torture myself by watching Olsen twin movies if they finally give us these spells and like only 5 people will ever use them. If it's not my fault then I'll just /suicide. But I'm pretty sure I didn't utter the words "Utsusemi San on relic katana" until AFTER they uttered the words "mass elegy on brd instru" so I think I'm safe from the watching olsen twin movies fate.

Not forgetting possible pet additions here but I really don't want to even begin speculating on those. I'll just say that for BST I expect a wyrm pet... I just know that SE is SE and that there will probably be a third stage and it will probably own and give meaning to doing the second stage beyond prestige. And everyone will rage quit and FFXI will end as people will finally had enough with the rick rolls and revenge will be had.




If you're wondering about the revenge bit, just take some time to think about it. It'll come to you. Not necessarily 100% related to FFXI.

[Anewie]

Yes, there is. You don't seem to understand what "exclusive" means. It doesn't have to be good to be exclusive. It's a status of something unique.



This. The buffs don't warrant the trial. It's not something people will do to improve, it's something they'll do (or die trying) to stand out.

I get that, but why do you need to do 100 pws to stand out? Theres goblin belt and ghost cape, which are much easier to get it, if one only wants to be unique.

I understand it, it just doesn't make much sense based on the trial requirements.

I also don't think it compares to what XI is used to in comparison to wanting to be exclusive.

[Alerith]

Vold, while that sounds nice and all, a third trial beyond the proposed afterglow trial is...a bit on the loony side.

I don't care if Meteor on your level 99 +2 Claustrum deals 9999 damage outside of abyssea. With the 99 +1 trial the way it is right now, we'd never see it, no matter how hardcore of a BLM you may be.

[Insaniac]

The fact that they made stage 2 a trophy gives me hope that they wouldn't do something silly like that. I feel like they maybe kinda are starting to get it.

[Alerith]

The fact that they made stage 2 a trophy gives me hope that they wouldn't do something silly like that. I feel like they maybe kinda are starting to get it.

I suppose that's the best way to look at it. 99 +1 is a trophy item. Is it worth getting? Depends on how much time you and your shell/friends are willing to spend. I personally don't see the worth at all, even for E-peen considering a fair amount of people aren't really going to look at you with respect.

What would be nice is if the "Meteor" "Spike Flail" etc. augments were a branch off of the NQ 99, so you don't HAVE to do the afterglow trial.


Claustrum (99)------Claustrum (99) Afterglow
Claustrum (99)------Claustrum (99) "Meteor"
Claustrum (99)------Claustrum (99) "Ultima"

Tizona (99)------Tizona (99) Afterglow
Tizona (99)------Tizona (99) "Spike Flail"
Tizona (99)------Tizona (99) "Mighty Guard"

etc. etc.

[Insaniac]

There are people who think emps aren't worth the trouble as well. Different strokes for different folks.

I think and hope that will be the case with the trials. They are very aware of how exclusive the glow weapons will be so I don't think they would enrage people by putting something they want so badly like new avatars pets and spells on a stage that requires even more effort than stage 2.

[Alerith]

There are people who think emps aren't worth the trouble as well. Different strokes for different folks.

I think and hope that will be the case with the trials. They are very aware of how exclusive the glow weapons will be so I don't think they would enrage people by putting something they want so badly like new avatars pets and spells on a stage that requires even more effort than stage 2.

To be completely honest, ANY kind of trial beyond the stage two would be a slap in the face.

Also, when you think about it:

Mythic weapons would be the one with the spells and abilities considering they are job specific.

Relics could finally have enhanced weaponskills like Knights of the Round II or brand new upgrades of the weaponskills like Ultimate End.

Empyreans....eh....I dunno.

[Vivik]

You wanna do something to help you LS mates and friends out? Take the time that you would spend on this trial and help them with things they need. This trial is ridiculous!

[Manicora]

Face it in the end With a 99 Emp and Glow effect on, Whoever Wields the Glow, is 99/49 + Cor Roll now isnt that what you want? To me, It goes back to there whole concept on "End game" Where you have a well balanced Team 6~18 players, and the Tank, lets face it Could hardly keep hate @ 75 after 10 sec of Zerg. The Glow will enable a more team effort and not a Single "Let me see how much damage I can do before I get Pawnd" player can mess it up for everyone
So Quityabitchin and Live up how they want those Special few who can get a Glow on or, in your case (Flame on) /wrist Cry'n aint an option

[Kitkat]

Don't forget, that that Afterglow effect is overwritten if they have a relic/emp/mythic and activate their aftermath. Priority order is Aftermath Lv3>Lv2>Lv1>Afterglow. So if you think that getting that afterglow so others with emps/relic/mythic can reap the reward, think again. As soon as they gain their specific aftermath that afterglow is gone meaning it only benefits those without relic/emp/mythic or don't use the WS to activate aftermath. In otherwords, about the only ones who reap any reward out of this are WOE users or someone using their Merit WS. ~golf claps for SE development~ Thank you for giving us something that hardly benefits anyone at all unless they don't have one of these weapons already.

I'm all for helping my fellow player...but not by making them slave away to give me a spiffy glow and afterglow they may not even benefit from anyway.

[Finuve]

im glad the buffs are crap 1 because I dont want to do that trial, ever, and 2 because I don't want to glow, ever

[Alerith]

im glad the buffs are crap 1 because I dont want to do that trial, ever, and 2 because I don't want to glow, ever

Do you need police assistance? If someone is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do trials, by all means I'll call the S.W.A.T. team for you.

[Finuve]

Do you need police assistance? If someone is holding a gun to your head forcing you to do trials, by all means I'll call the S.W.A.T. team for you.holy misinterpretation batman

[Camate]

I’d like to share the developers’ thoughts and plan for these new trials and upgrades.

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form and is also the one the developers expect most players can achieve. They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

On the other hand, as some of you have already mentioned, the second stage of these weapon enhancements is left for those players who wish to go above and beyond—the “completionists” so to speak. This is why there will be no difference in weapon skill damage or other stats and only an AoE benefit as well as a special effect will be given for completing this upgrade.

[Kalilla]

Just seems kinda silly to be honest. Would of rather that time, money, and manpower been spent on something more productive than that :(

[Prothscar]

They're still dangling a carrot, however it's a pointless, rotten carrot that would be better off not existing or being made more available. No sane human being will ever complete those trials.

[pim-ptarutaru]

I agree with the op, wtf at this trial?

This is absurb. Please delete this trial and stop trolling. The fact the op in the other thread said... this trial would be sought after by elites, they are delusional.

Nobody wants to be special so badly theyd put up with 300 ADLs so they can glow. Come on people... Who have you been playing with that is that silly/epeen hungry?

In B4 INSANIAK/GG come in after me, lol.

LOL you would be surprised on how many will do.

[pim-ptarutaru]

wish all the casuals would stop crying about this. be happy they gonna let you have a lv 99. who cares if you dont get the after glow. and yes there will people doing it no matter how absurd the trial is. Finally weapons that every casual won't have.

[Prothscar]

So anyone who doesn't want to spend 2 years to get a completely worthless glow effect are casuals? Your definition for "casual" is skewed. I like to refer to these people as sane.

[Insaniac]

I’d like to share the developers’ thoughts and plan for these new trials and upgrades.

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form and is also the one the developers expect most players can achieve. They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

On the other hand, as some of you have already mentioned, the second stage of these weapon enhancements is left for those players who wish to go above and beyond—the “completionists” so to speak. This is why there will be no difference in weapon skill damage or other stats and only an AoE benefit as well as a special effect will be given for completing this upgrade.

I like the concept and I think a lot of players do but it's pretty universally agreed that the stage 2 trials are asking too much even for the completionists. I would like to see stage 2 requirements dialed back a bit but only if it has absolutely zero effect on the stage 1 trials. I think the exclusivity could still be retained with far lower numbers on the relic and mythic path but tell the devs to do whatever they need to do to keep my non-glow 99 accessible while retaining the same damage dealing ability of the stage 2.

[Zarchery]

They're still dangling a carrot, however it's a pointless, rotten carrot that would be better off not existing or being made more available. No sane human being will ever complete those trials.

Well, sanity is relative. If the person enjoys it, so what? I mean, any effort put forth to attain any item in this game serves no purpose except to enable the bearer to get more things in the game. If you enjoy the effort put forth to get anywhere in this game, then you're spending your time well. If, however, you're doing it out of some perceived sense that you have to do it, you really aren't.

[Hayward]

Some people will say anything to justify this irrational obsession with status.

Building 8 Avatar Magian staves all the way is a perfectly normal goal to shoot for (for SMNs, anyway) and be proud of once completed (anyone mentioning Nirvana is lying to himself). These trials are for people who probably shouldn't be allowed outside among the public.

[Washburn]

The Aoe doesnt even effect the player with the weapon, does it? I assumed it worked like the other AoE gear pieces. Which, honestly, even calling that a carrot is laughable. Having a glow effect is more of a reason to do it, and honestly my shell has like 15 relics, and none of us are even considering working on aura effects.

[SpankWustler]

I’d like to share the developers’ thoughts and plan for these new trials and upgrades.

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form and is also the one the developers expect most players can achieve. They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

On the other hand, as some of you have already mentioned, the second stage of these weapon enhancements is left for those players who wish to go above and beyond—the “completionists” so to speak. This is why there will be no difference in weapon skill damage or other stats and only an AoE benefit as well as a special effect will be given for completing this upgrade.

I love that "completionists" sounds like a polite euphemism in the last paragraph. I can imagine the developers seeing that some poor soul has completed an afterglow weapon, looking at each other with amused expressions, then cheerfully declaring that the King of all NEETs has claimed his lonesome throne.

They'll begin to debate whether such a throne is made of out Mikuru Asahina love pillows or Mami Tomoe love pillows, battle lines will be drawn, and even less work than usual will get done that day.

[Ravenmore]

Camate people are getting mad at this when we get the devs saying do to cost, man power what not they can't put out content at a faster pace then they turn around and do this mess. I don't care if it took a intern slave 10 mins to put it in that 10mins could have been better spent.

[Alerith]

I’d like to share the developers’ thoughts and plan for these new trials and upgrades.

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form and is also the one the developers expect most players can achieve. They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

On the other hand, as some of you have already mentioned, the second stage of these weapon enhancements is left for those players who wish to go above and beyond—the “completionists” so to speak. This is why there will be no difference in weapon skill damage or other stats and only an AoE benefit as well as a special effect will be given for completing this upgrade.

This point of view is understandable, but I think it's being poorly executed. If it's just meant to be a completionists thing, a carrot to dangle for someone who wants one push into a "status", then it should just be a glorified glow effect and the trial should be considerably less. The effect besides actually glowing is extremely underwhelming, especially for what the trial asks.

[Vold]

I love that "completionists" sounds like a polite euphemism in the last paragraph. I can imagine the developers seeing that some poor soul has completed an afterglow weapon, looking at each other with amused expressions, then cheerfully declaring that the King of all NEETs has claimed his lonesome throne.

They'll begin to debate whether such a throne is made of out Mikuru Asahina love pillows or Mami Tomoe love pillows, battle lines will be drawn, and even less work than usual will get done that day.
I predict if all of this stays true then the first person who pulls it off will have earned the right to be singled out by SE and congratulated for all to see on POL. Kind of like how they did that business for whatsitsname server and their long streak of undefeated wins in besieged(sorry but it wasn't important enough for me to remember jack about it except it was 2000 wins in a row or some deal) until SE opened their mouths and ruined everything by jinxing them. So they'll announce the one person who was first and people will know them and then say, cool grats brah let me see what it can do! ... thanks for the aura stat boost, brah. Sucks to be you. But hey you glow. Beats having a real life! And it only cost a billion gil. And I get the benefits of all that work. Damn brah, you generous.

[Frost]

I’d like to share the developers’ thoughts and plan for these new trials and upgrades.

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form and is also the one the developers expect most players can achieve. They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

On the other hand, as some of you have already mentioned, the second stage of these weapon enhancements is left for those players who wish to go above and beyond—the “completionists” so to speak. This is why there will be no difference in weapon skill damage or other stats and only an AoE benefit as well as a special effect will be given for completing this upgrade.

Interesting words chosen here; I'd say deliberate. Well played sir. (No Sarcasm)

Is there any way we could get just a tiny bit more "oomf" in the current "Final Form"? Yes I've seen the stats and such, and no I haven't checked em out on the test server, but could you just toss a cherry on top and give the aftermaths a little more potency?

Y'all were able to make some last minute changes to things like Bully and Scarlet Delirium, maybe a tiny bit of love on those aftermaths? You know, to make em, well, noticeable?

[Kraggy]

wish all the casuals would stop crying about this. be happy they gonna let you have a lv 99. who cares if you dont get the after glow. and yes there will people doing it no matter how absurd the trial is. Finally weapons that every casual won't have.
It's people like you that make end-game here sometimes so painful, feeling so superior over others who don't share your fixation on phat lewt for its own sake.

[Zhronne]

They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.
Yet this is exactely what happened with Empyreal Weapons trial from 90 to 95, isn't it?

[DrStrangelove]

Right now, there's no real incentive for a player to want to do it.

It's a freaking hard quest for limited value to YOU. So, don't do it. Problem solved.

[Alerith]

It's a freaking hard quest for limited value to YOU. So, don't do it. Problem solved.

I don't intend to do it. The problem isn't whether I want to do it or not. It's the fact that there is no purpose for anyone else to want to do it either, short of completion's sake.

While that's all good and fine, my heart bleeds for those people because the trial doesn't justify what they're trying to achieve.

[Zhronne]

Arguably, there's a whole ton of things that do not justify the effort required. It all depends on points of view I guess.
It sure looks pointless and preposterous to me (they should at least make so the sphere effects affects the wielder as well!), but if someone wants to do it who are we to judge his will as "wrong"?

[Creelo]

They should really at least make Afterglow a separate buff from Aftermath so that it can stack with other player's Aftermath, considering how marginal Afterglow is... :/

[Prothscar]

Imo all spheres should be user targeted as well... but these especially.

[Helel]

Let me put this way: anyone who completes the stage 2 trial is an absolute moron. You're losing 2.5m potential gil every dynamis run you fight ADL instead of farming currency. Multiply that by the number of times you'll need to kill him for every person in the alliance, and you could have completed every relic weapon up to level 99... instead glowing blue.

The auras are nothing more than a /point and laugh at how stupid someone is for actually having completed the trial.

[Runespider]

It's a freaking hard quest for limited value to YOU. So, don't do it. Problem solved.

I think it's silly but I know people will do it, just as the 90>95 emp trial is stupid right now and people do that...although I do think they will scale that one back next update. Functional upgrade trials should not be as stupid as 1500 plates.

I don't really have an issue with this, they could of made the 95>99 trial this and left everyone out in the cold, as it is doing all that work just gives you a retarded glow. Have they stated what the "achievable" version is for everyone else yet? I'm more intrested if I should be raging over that then some dumbass linkshell leader making his sheep do this trial to glow in PJ.

Only thing I dislike is the precedent this sets, final trial for a few minority, new NMS for the few minority? etc. I know the current dev team likes to make status items and a class system in FFXI but don't piss off the majority to attain that stupid royalty system. Abyssea was awesome because it was open to all, let's try make the vast majority of content for your playerbase and not a handful of people, it's not like we have a huge dev team that can have time be wasted on stuff for a few.

[Unctgtg]

How about you guys tell us what Stage 1 is.

[Alerith]

Let me put this way: anyone who completes the stage 2 trial is an absolute moron. You're losing 2.5m potential gil every dynamis run you fight ADL instead of farming currency. Multiply that by the number of times you'll need to kill him for every person in the alliance, and you could have completed every relic weapon up to level 99... instead glowing blue.

The auras are nothing more than a /point and laugh at how stupid someone is for actually having completed the trial.

I don't completely agree with this. You could argue that anything you do is a waste when you could spend that time doing something else.

Not everyone plays in the same way, and while one player may prefer to specialize in a broad range of jobs and collect relics for each of them, others prefer a far fewer number, even one job, that they choose to specialize in and complete as much as they can.

While I understand where you're coming from and I agree the time could be better spent, it's not the motives of the players that I'm concerned about when it comes to this situation. It's the trial and SE's line of thinking that concern me.

[Strife]

If the +2 is a trail you don't want to do for a reward you dont want.. where's the problem?

I don't understand QQ'n because someone else may be getting what they want while by your own admission it's no lose to you.


Don't forget, that that Afterglow effect is overwritten if they have a relic/emp/mythic and activate their aftermath. Priority order is Aftermath Lv3>Lv2>Lv1>Afterglow. So if you think that getting that afterglow so others with emps/relic/mythic can reap the reward, think again. As soon as they gain their specific aftermath that afterglow is gone meaning it only benefits those without relic/emp/mythic or don't use the WS to activate aftermath. In otherwords, about the only ones who reap any reward out of this are WOE users or someone using their Merit WS. ~golf claps for SE development~ Thank you for giving us something that hardly benefits anyone at all unless they don't have one of these weapons already.

I'm all for helping my fellow player...but not by making them slave away to give me a spiffy glow and afterglow they may not even benefit from anyway.

Kind of sad when you think the people most likely to do the stage 2s will be in linkshells with other relic/ emps and will therefore have thier hard won buff wasted.


They should really at least make Afterglow a separate buff from Aftermath so that it can stack with other player's Aftermath, considering how marginal Afterglow is... :/

I agree after all as far as i know sphere effects from gear and atmacite aren't over written by aftermath but I guess it depends on the strength of the effect as to wether this will be to over powered or not.

[Camiie]

It's a freaking hard quest for limited value to YOU. So, don't do it. Problem solved.

I won't do it, but it can affect me just the same. What I'm trying to avoid is a precedent being set for other content. If the playerbase finds this type of trial acceptable or is silent about it, you can bet they will introduce something similarly time consuming for the rest of us. Oh it won't be killing 500 PW or 1000 ADLs, but you know they'd love to have everyone slogging through already implemented content for years for a single upgrade if they can get away with it. I want them to know that, for me, that's not cool.

[Insaniac]

I agree after all as far as i know sphere effects from gear and atmacite aren't over written by aftermath but I guess it depends on the strength of the effect as to wether this will be to over powered or not.They are separate buffs. After glow is like an instant cast AoE buff that lasts 30 seconds. Kinda like warcry but activated by a WS. Once you get it you don't need to stay in range or anything so it shouldn't effect true sphere effects in any way.

For people talking about the precedent these trials set you are looking at them in the wrong way. They set the precedent for extremely long soul crushing grinds to be truly optional. For instance the upgrade to nyzul gear could be reasonable all the way up to the last stage which could require something crazy like 200k tokens or defeating some random pop NM 300 times but the effect would be a blinking light in the middle of your askar helm and a 1% boost to the set bonus over the previous stages effects which are +15% crit damage and 10 str.

SE is clearly intent on making these unholy grinds (/point VW) so wouldn't you rather them be optional like stage 2 trials instead of being something you feel obligated to pursue?

[Washburn]

I think i speak for most relic holders by saying the stage 2 trial is a major slap in the face to anyone who made a relic. The amount of hours put into the weapon's usable form at 75 is already a daunting task, especially for those who did it before the dynamis changes. Then the trials, some people did the 2000 ws kill trials for +1 DMG to try and improve the weapon. We relic/mythic weapon holders are accustomed to being patient and putting in a lot of long hours and more work than anyone in the game for what we have, especially when you think about how an 85 emperyan compares to a 95 relic/mythic. Still not a whole lot of difference, and continuously adding rediculous trials to get us to keep playing to complete what we thought was done (especially relic/mythic holders @75 cap) seems like a shitty way of keeping your playerbase. Why not add more quests, or more crafted items, or more HNM's? I'd much rather go back to camping HNM's than dragging my LS to something thats bullshit. If you (aimed at the designers) are gonna make new trials and adjust the weapons so there is a more significant difference between an 85 emperyan and a 95+ relic/mythic. You guys have balls enough to completely change what a corsair roll does, so alter the weapons so we can be proud of the hard work we've ALREADY done, and if you really want to make the relic holders happy, how about making new animations for them?! Theyre so outdated, my mercy stroke looks like a damn pink gravitation animation. Oh and how about 30-60-90 second aftermaths?

[Insaniac]

I think i speak for most relic holders by saying the stage 2 trial is a major slap in the face to anyone who made a relic. You do not speak for me or any relic/mythic/emp holder that I know (30+). I am happy with this set of trials. No one I know cares enough about glowing to be mad about the fact that we are supposedly getting reasonable trials for the important upgrades.

[Washburn]

You do not speak for me or any relic/mythic/emp holder that I know (30+). I am happy with this set of trials. No one I know cares enough about glowing to be mad about the fact that we are supposedly getting reasonable trials for the important upgrades.

Thanks for, in douche fashon, pointing out that you are not one of the most that i talk to.

I only know 3 people with mythic, and haven't asked their opinion on any of it, and making an emperyan is a joke, which is why i was referring to specifically relic holders at the beginning. The trials are a lot more reasonable now than they were at 75 cap, and so far, i've willingly done them all.

The glowing effect, specifically, wasnt the gripe, i was pointing out that even pinning a trial that they know is rediculous for no direct benefit to the person doing the work, is not reasonable, not worth it, and in my eyes, a waste of development time they could have used on something that might make the game more valuable and enjoyable.

By the way, who doesn't have an emperyan yet anyway? I don't really consider an 85-90 emperyan as something thats viewed as difficult to obtain.

[Insaniac]

I'm not real sure how I was being a "douche" but w/e. If not a single one of the r/m/e holders that I know feels this "slap in the face" then you just might be wrong about most of us being upset about it. Also of note 95 emps aren't that easy and anyone who is staying at 90 wouldn't be effected.

What you need to think about is that SE was, one way or another, gonna make some kind of death grind. Be happy that it's something that you don't need to do. If they made stage 2 a necessity for doing as much damage as you possibly could then 10x the people would be raging so don't go poking the hornets nest and get something amazing added to stage 2 just for the sake of "not wasting dev time".

[Avina]

They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

On the other hand, as some of you have already mentioned, the second stage of these weapon enhancements is left for those players who wish to go above and beyond—the “completionists” so to speak. This is why there will be no difference in weapon skill damage or other stats and only an AoE benefit as well as a special effect will be given for completing this upgrade.

Yes, I can understand how this is for the completionists and whatnot, but the developer team seems completely out of touch with the reality of the situation. I want to ask the developers, deep down inside, would they themselves shoot to complete these trials? Would you...

Be willing to spend the time and effort necessary to gather the pops?
Manipulate a linkshell of friends for years for your benefit?
Stand tall and proud because you went "above and beyond" for minor AoE bonus buffs and a glowy animation?

People enjoy playing this game. People already went through the enormous amount of work required to simply get the original weapon. And now, they are faced with this trial. I, personally, will likely never get a relic or mythic weapon, but this just strikes me as terrible game design and a terrible goal to put in the game.

FFXI warns when the game turns on to not sacrifice your life for this game. Setting such a task only disregards that message. I thought SE would have learned by now, after FFXIV, that completely ignoring the complaints your player population poses to you was not the way to go to keep your player population interested. The developer team is wrong, in this case. The 'completionists' would be just as happy if the 2nd trial wasn't there, period. This is not a feature that anyone is clamoring for or would otherwise be hurt if it was never implemented.

It already is dangling a carrot, a carrot that is going to be able to seen by other relic holders as a form of the weapon that they couldn't get.

[Kriegsgott]

SE didn made the lvl 99 Relic/Mythic/Emp weapon upgrade hard only the Step 2 Trial for Glowing which so say the most people none want it but a lot people ar still crying /sigh

if you dont like the hard work for a "useless glow effect because it dosn benefit the player" just dont do it

[Alerith]

SE didn made the lvl 99 Relic/Mythic/Emp weapon upgrade hard only the Step 2 Trial for Glowing which so say the most people none want it but a lot people ar still crying /sigh

if you dont like the hard work for a "useless glow effect because it dosn benefit the player" just dont do it

Thank you for not only taking the time to read my thread, but the posts of others within the thread.

/sarcasm

Is reading comprehension really such a horrible concept in schools these days?

The conversation is really starting to boil down to the main concern: The path of SE's thinking.

Sure, we who don't care about being all sparkly glowy could just let the issue pass. But the Dev team is going to get it into their mind that it's acceptable to make these horrid trials and to make gear even more of a pain to obtain than voidwatch already makes it. (Picture THAT one.)

No. I won't be doing the sparkly glowy trial. But I'm still concerned about it.

[Washburn]

People are "crying" because its rediculous. Making a relic in the first place is one hell of a task. I didnt have to do the trials to make it better than that level 75, but i did because i feel like, if i did all the work, the weapon should be completed. You don't start somethin like TOAU, blow through the missions with your summoner then not get alexander and odin. You don't do the moogle expansions and not trade the key for your gear piece. People who busted butt all these years should be rewarded with something decent.

Yeah yeah, i know you 85-90 emp holders feel like everyone else is bitching over nothing, but its the whole feeling of feeling like all that work you did was either not good enough, or that its never gonna end.

Yeah, glowy effect, whatever. Its no real benefit. I just feel like it could have either been something worth the work, or that it was reasonably obtainable. It feels like a paintjob for your car costing $50,000. Its unreasonable, and its insulting to think that anyone would even take it seriously enough to consider putting in the work.

Pardon the analogies, but damn.

[Insaniac]

The conversation is really starting to boil down to the main concern: The path of SE's thinking.

Sure, we who don't care about being all sparkly glowy could just let the issue pass. But the Dev team is going to get it into their mind that it's acceptable to make these horrid trials and to make gear even more of a pain to obtain than voidwatch already makes it. (Picture THAT one.)

No. I won't be doing the sparkly glowy trial. But I'm still concerned about it.


Refer to my post from the last page.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19740-Ok...let-me-level-with-you-here-SE...?p=265131&viewfull=1#post265131

The precedent is that horrible things that most people don't want to do will be optional and have very little effect on the power of your character. This is a good precedent not a bad one.

[Insaniac]

Yeah, glowy effect, whatever. Its no real benefit. I just feel like it could have either been something worth the work, or that it was reasonably obtainable. It feels like a paintjob for your car costing $50,000. Its unreasonable, and its insulting to think that anyone would even take it seriously enough to consider putting in the work.Why in the world some people continue to ask for a better reward for an impossible trial is lost on me. With the current set doing stage 1 gives you your weapon at 99.9% power and leaves the extra .1% on a trial that almost no one will ever do. Why would you ask for them to shift more of that power on to the stage 2 trial? You want your weapon at 90% of full power and the extra 10% on a trial that you have pretty much no chance of ever completing? Why ask for this?

[Alerith]

Refer to my post from the last page.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19740-Ok...let-me-level-with-you-here-SE...?p=265131&viewfull=1#post265131

The precedent is that horrible things that most people don't want to do will be optional and have very little effect on the power of your character. This is a good precedent not a bad one.

If we were certain that's how it would stay, I would agree with you completely. But as it stands, it could be unique to R/M/E weapons.

In the future, they could say "Oh, well everyone was willing to deal with this trial. Let's add more."

If things went the way you stated, that would be perfectly fine. However, I'm concerned they wouldn't limit it to trivial things that people wouldn't mind being optional. Look at your dagger for example. Right now, afterglow is trivial and it's not going to affect your damage or performance whether you upgrade it or not.

What if, instead, the afterglow was something incredible and made your damage better, your delay lower, etc. etc.

Now there's a problem and it's a problem that could become real in the future if SE decides it's ok to go about doing trials this way.

[Insaniac]

That's just a general worry about SE competence though. They could decide any number of things but if we are talking about precedence this sets the one I posted above. From Camate's post it seems like they are fully aware of how insane the trial is and for that reason they have made it optional. They also can't infer that we are all fine with an insane trial if only 1-2 people per server do it. I can't blame you at all for expecting SE to make stupid choices but I don't think this points to the possibility of them making terrible grinds for substantial upgrades. In fact it's the exact oppossite.

[Washburn]

Why in the world some people continue to ask for a better reward for an impossible trial is lost on me.

Read this over and over until it clicks.

[detlef]

It's an impossible trial. And it's essentially entirely cosmetic. I will finish my weapons to 99 and then I will stop. The world will keep on turning.

[Washburn]

Obviously thats the choice everyone will be taking.

[detlef]

Yup. Other than wasting development time on something that will not happen, what's the problem?

[Ravenmore]

Yup. Other than wasting development time on something that will not happen, what's the problem?

Them giving us the line that the reason it takes so long for new content is they don't have the staff or the money it rubs the us the wrong way. Better yet not getting more then reskins of old mobs in old zones. Then they even think of wasting time no matter how little of it on something that at best 10 or 20 people will ever get and then a chance that 100 might even try to finish it, so can you see why people might be mad.

[detlef]

Frankly I was more upset when there wasn't any first stage at all. When it looked like maybe a handful of people would be running around with level 99 weapons across all servers. Now THAT looked like a colossal waste of development time. Compared to that, this is a breath of fresh air.

...

We'll see what the stage 1 trials entail, but it appears to be a step in the right direction. Incidentally, are the people who are upset r/m/e holders? I would think that most people would be happy to know that the weapons' final stats can be obtained through a reasonable (maybe) amount of effort.

The argument that they are wasting effort on content that may as well not exist is a valid concern that I can get behind.

[Atomic_Skull]

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form

Except it's not complete so long as the final stage remains. It is a slap in the face to relic holders who undertook the original relic quest as a capstone on their character to suddenly take that completion away from them and tell them that the weapon is no longer complete and will never be for 99.9% of relic holders.

I wouldn't mind a hard quest, even something on the order of the difficulty of the 10,000 currency stage as it was at level 75. Even if that meant the removal of the easy lvl 99 stage. Because at least that's just a matter of hard work and can be completed by someone willing to put in the effort. But this final stage is simply impossible for 99.99% of relic holders. You have taken my completed weapon from me and you can say the easy stage is "complete" but I'm sorry it's just not complete no matter what the developers say so long as there is a remaining stage and people are going to be angry and feel like something was stolen from them.

Asking for another 10,000 unit currency for 95->99 probably would have actually caused less rage than this because at least that can actually be completed and the upgrade (40% WS damage and enhanced extra damage proc) would be worth the effort.

[Strife]

more HNM's?

This!


I, personally, will likely never get a relic or mythic weapon, but this just strikes me as terrible game design and a terrible goal to put in the game.

Then why bother commenting on trials for them? Just kinda sounds like "I don't want SE to make hard stuff cause I'll never get it".


But the Dev team is going to get it into their mind that it's acceptable to make these horrid trials and to make gear even more of a pain to obtain than voidwatch already makes it.

When have they not thought this way? lol
Just because the game has been placed into easy mode now people seem to forget that a lot of old content, especially obtaining 'ultimate' items like relics and mythics were always hard. 30k alex when salvage used to be challenging and fun with low drop rates, people would've killed to change the trial to defeating ADL a bunch of times lol. Collecting currency for original relics -unless you were obscenely rich- took more than a few hundred dynamis runs (poor bastards). SE always has & always will make sadistic trials because as much as we may like to mouth off about them history shows we still like doing -or some people at least- them for that sense of triumph and superiority at the end, of course they also want to keep those ppl grinding and paying their subscription.


If we were certain that's how it would stay, I would agree with you completely.

We can't be certain of anything SE will do except maybe that they do stupid stuff. We can be certain whatever they do people will QQ about it though. lol

Just out of curiosity will anyone on here be doing the +2 trial and i know you have to be pretty brave to say you will on here.

[saevel]

I’d like to share the developers’ thoughts and plan for these new trials and upgrades.

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form and is also the one the developers expect most players can achieve. They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

On the other hand, as some of you have already mentioned, the second stage of these weapon enhancements is left for those players who wish to go above and beyond—the “completionists” so to speak. This is why there will be no difference in weapon skill damage or other stats and only an AoE benefit as well as a special effect will be given for completing this upgrade.

This is a good idea Camate. The dev's gonna get flak no matter what they do here, but I feel this address's the needs of the majority of the player base. They can reasonably obtain the final form of their weapon. The people who want to go to the extreme can opt to get the sparkly one that tells everyone they did that.

Now to address the issue with Heavy Metal Plates, their at 100K each now which translates into 150,000,000 gil. That's a little excessive if the majority of Emp holders are expected to upgrade to 99. Could the developers possibly look at either reducing the number of plates needed, or increasing their drop rates.

[Runespider]

Yeah, glowy effect, whatever. Its no real benefit. I just feel like it could have either been something worth the work, or that it was reasonably obtainable. It feels like a paintjob for your car costing $50,000. Its unreasonable, and its insulting to think that anyone would even take it seriously enough to consider putting in the work.

Honestly I'm kinda glad it's a)crap b)so stupid that most of us will never seriously contemplate doing it. If the trial was the same but the end result was amazing we would all be really upset we couldn't take it to the last level, if the trial was a little more reasonable but still rather stupid we would possibly attempt it and waste mass amounts ofour time on it.

Be happy for what the trial is and fear what they could of done. If a few want to do this glow trial then good luck to them, I'm thankful for the lackluster upgrade as to not make me emo to worry about it. They are determined to do thisd minority upgrade so be glad it's crap and leave it alone.

[Insaniac]

Read this over and over until it clicks.
Way to quote 1 sentence without context. The key word is "impossible". My question is: Why would you want something you can't get to be amazing? Forget the effort vs. reward arguments. Just isolate that question and try to answer it.

If someone sealed 1 cupcake under 30 feet of solid concrete and put another cupcake in a locker then put the key on a shelf that you needed a stool to reach would you insist that the cupcake under 30 feet of concrete be twice as delicious as the one in the locker?

[Atomic_Skull]

People didn't do relics for performance, they did them as a capstone on their character. SE has now taken that away and said that we will never complete our weapons.

I don't mind a hard quest to complete it, even something as hard as the original lvl 75 final stage (which I would be glad to do for the stats they listed for the 99 relics). But telling us "99.9999999% of you will never complete your weapons but here's a consolation prize" is more likely to make people quit than just asking for another 150 million gil in items would have been.

[dragoon_apprentice]

they want you to play ff14. guess what? it is still very boring.

[saevel]

Honestly I'm kinda glad it's a)crap b)so stupid that most of us will never seriously contemplate doing it. If the trial was the same but the end result was amazing we would all be really upset we couldn't take it to the last level, if the trial was a little more reasonable but still rather stupid we would possibly attempt it and waste mass amounts ofour time on it.

Be happy for what the trial is and fear what they could of done. If a few want to do this glow trial then good luck to them, I'm thankful for the lackluster upgrade as to not make me emo to worry about it. They are determined to do thisd minority upgrade so be glad it's crap and leave it alone.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. No matter what SE does there is going to be player rage against them. They could make the weapons OMFG "hard" to obtain, then the people who want status have something to be happy about but most relic holders will be pissed off. They could make them easy to obtain, but then the people who are status are pissed and moaning, most relic holders are happy but complain that it's "too easy". SE opted to do both, create one trial that's relatively easy such that a majority of players can obtain it. It has good stats and resembles the final version of their weapon. They also created an "upgrade" stage to it that has no additional stats and a weak aoe effect. It's ridiculously time consuming to obtain, but once obtained it'll be shiny and immediately noticeable, it'll make the status seekers happy. The only people pissed now are the ones that would be pissed no matter what SE does, just gotta filter them out.

[Insaniac]

People didn't do relics for performance, they did them as a capstone on their character. SE has now taken that away and said that we will never complete our weapons.

I don't mind a hard quest to complete it, even something as hard as the original lvl 75 final stage (which I would be glad to do for the stats they listed for the 99 relics). But telling us "99.9999999% of you will never complete your weapons but here's a consolation prize" is more likely to make people quit than just asking for another 150 million gil in items would have been.
Don't be ridiculous. Relics would not have been a capstone if they weren't the best weapons so they were still done for performance. If they weren't done for performance then Aegis Mandau Apoc Gjallarhorn and Amano wouldn't have been the most popular weapons by a huge margin. And, while technically correct, saying you aren't complete without doing the glow stage and acting like it's some huge slap in the face is really really over dramatic.

[fxp7]

Would be fun as hell if the afterglow weapons lagged people (like the telepoints and confluxes) to the point that the owners would be prohibited to use these weapons by their LS fellows.

[Crysten]

I’d like to share the developers’ thoughts and plan for these new trials and upgrades.

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form and is also the one the developers expect most players can achieve. They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

On the other hand, as some of you have already mentioned, the second stage of these weapon enhancements is left for those players who wish to go above and beyond—the “completionists” so to speak. This is why there will be no difference in weapon skill damage or other stats and only an AoE benefit as well as a special effect will be given for completing this upgrade.

Yo, dawg. I heard you like to finish relics so we put a trial on your finished relic so you can finish your finished relic.

I can totally understand the dev's thinking behind the move, but the implementation, like most things in the game have always been, is positively mind boggling. The level 99 weapon is considered "finished"? That's a funny definition of the word "finished" considering the weapon can still be upgraded, even if the upgrade is an absolutely minute AOE effect. An upgrade is an upgrade and either way, you're still dangling a carrot in front of players. An extremely small, possibly moldy carrot that considering the amount of work to get it should be completely ignored, but a carrot nonetheless.

I have no doubt that -someone- out there is going to attempt to complete this trial but the principle of the matter still completely irks me. The amount of work to get to that true completionist's pinnacle has not been thought out in the slightest, and I feel sorry for the LS ultimately shoehorned into undertaking the task for their leader.

I am never going to say these trials should be easy, but you should not be designing these trials around LS sized events where only one person reaps rewards when the majority of weapons are soloed/lowmanned these days. I'll take a damn good challenge to get my afterglow, sure. Make me defeat some kind of HNM akin to the final Mythic fight. Make me go through some kind of storyline. Give me something that only a group of relic holders can achieve together at the same time.

Don't make me have to drag 17 other unlucky saps to Dynamis-Xarcabard and ZNM events for the next several years for almost nothing in return. Why must they shoulder all that burden, also?

Someone's already mathed it out - I can make several emps, mythics and relics to 99 in the time it'd take to get one Afterglow. I'd take the former over the latter anyday, and I can't believe the dev team legitimately believe this is good game design in this day and age.

This seems like a bet to me - someone's just curious enough to know if there are people out there retarded or commited enough to pull something like this off and there's some money riding on it, lol.

[Xilk]

I think I'm more likely to point and laugh at anyone who actually does get a glow effect on their weapon.

[Alerith]

People didn't do relics for performance, they did them as a capstone on their character.

Wait...what?

I don't know what you're talking about, but I finished my final weapon for the sake of performance. I mean, being a PLD, I kinda had to in order to progress in my performance.

Sure, it's an achievement and all, but I don't see people making the less useful R/M/E just for the sake of saying they have it.

[FrankReynolds]

I personally thing they should take away the sphere effect that it gives to party members, and add that too the first trial.

The second trial should give nothing but a cool looking effect.

The trial is virtually impossible to complete, and attempting it will inevitably lead to woe and misery. The reward should be so bad that no one will ever do it.

[Camiie]

I personally thing they should take away the sphere effect that it gives to party members, and add that too the first trial.

The second trial should give nothing but a cool looking effect.

The trial is virtually impossible to complete, and attempting it will inevitably lead to woe and misery. The reward should be so bad that no one will ever do it.


Either that or scrap the whole thing and focus their resources on content that actually matters. That'd be ideal, but your way is a good compromise.

[Atomic_Skull]

Aegis Mandau

The fact that Aegis and Mandau actually got made in large numbers shows it was more for status than performance otherwise people would never have made relics for two of the lowest tier jobs in the game.

[Frost]

Do they have a name for your condition?

[Alerith]

Do they have a name for your condition?

Stupidity.

[Tinuviel]

Just seems kinda silly to be honest. Would of rather that time, money, and manpower been spent on something more productive than that

Wow can people learn to stop complaining? Christ, SE gives us pretty much exactly what we want, which is accessible trials for "final form" ultimate weapons... Think before you post please. We want the developers to get useful feedback not "I dont think SE is using their resources efficiently". Go start your own gaming company if you think you can do better...

[saevel]

The fact that Aegis and Mandau actually got made in large numbers shows it was more for status than performance otherwise people would never have made relics for two of the lowest tier jobs in the game.

Did you forget to take your meds? I can understand if that post was made in a non-optimal mental condition.

If on the other hand you were actually being serious ... wow ... wtf over.

Aegis was ~THE~ best shield for PLD in the game period. It allowed a PLD to do things that no non-Aegis PLD could do and has since become the defining tanking tool of PLD. Until the creation of brOchain an Aegis PLD was the highest tier tank on super hard HNMs. Of course now there really isn't many things that require a PLD to tank. Technically all the end tier VWNM's would "require" an Aegis / OChain PLD to tank them had fanatics and proc spam not existed. Of course SE might be fixing that shortly, never can be sure with them.

Mandau is the highest DPS weapon in the game for those who can equip it, namely THF and RDM. Due to the nature of how fSTR dramatically favors lower delay weapons even off handed Mandau was a beastly weapon. Of course it has since fallen to the wayside as THF's tend to use twashtar's and RDM's got CDC. Prior to the introduction of Abyssea Evis spam with a Mandau was bad a$$, could go a stay further and do THF/WAR SATA Mercy Stroke for ridiculous one shot damage (same HNM fights you'd use that Aegis PLD on).

[Alerith]

Aegis was ~THE~ best shield for PLD in the game period. It allowed a PLD to do things that no non-Aegis PLD could do and has since become the defining tanking tool of PLD. Until the creation of brOchain an Aegis PLD was the highest tier tank on super hard HNMs. Of course now there really isn't many things that require a PLD to tank. Technically all the end tier VWNM's would "require" an Aegis / OChain PLD to tank them had fanatics and proc spam not existed. Of course SE might be fixing that shortly, never can be sure with them.

I would like to comment that even though Ochain was introduced, Aegis isn't less good. Now we just have a physical shield for mobs that don't cast or keep magic to a manageable level. Aegis is still the best shield for what it's made for.

[FrankReynolds]

Wow can people learn to stop complaining? Christ, SE gives us pretty much exactly what we want, which is accessible trials for "final form" ultimate weapons... Think before you post please. We want the developers to get useful feedback not "I dont think SE is using their resources efficiently". Go start your own gaming company if you think you can do better...

Complaining about complaining FTW.

[Insaniac]

The fact that Aegis and Mandau actually got made in large numbers shows it was more for status than performance otherwise people would never have made relics for two of the lowest tier jobs in the game.

How do you say the things you say with such conviction? How can you reply with something so incredibly stupid without an inkling of self doubt? I'm sorry for not being constructive but what can I even say to a post like that?

[wish12oz]

It is a slap in the face to relic holders

Know what else is a slap in the face to relic/mythic/emp weapon holders?
People who pretend to be one.

[Atomic_Skull]

Know what else is a slap in the face to relic/mythic/emp weapon holders?
People who pretend to be one.

Nice try but I'm not taking off anon.

[Alerith]

Nice try but I'm not taking off anon.

Wouldn't matter if you did. With the ignorance you've been spewing for the past several posts, we have no doubt you aren't a holder and just like talking out your ass.

Which is fine, it's the internet and all. Just don't expect anybody to actually take you seriously.

[SNK]

Nice try but I'm not taking off anon.

He's got a point tho & from reading what you've posted so far, I'm pretty sure you don't own a relic.

[Kuwabaraone]

I understand you have your own twisted idea of what balance is. I understand you can justify just about everything you've done in some way or another. But in another thread, I typed out this mockup quote:

"Your 99 +1 Almace is the exact same as my 99 Almace. Oh wait! Yours gives ME a bonus!"

And as I finished typing it, I realized more and more how this makes absolutely NO sense. There isn't a shred of logic here.

You've stated that a Level 99 R/M/E will have the same damage, delay and effect as a level 99 R/M/E with afterglow.

You've also stated that the afterglow will effect everyone EXCEPT the wielder.

You've also stated that the trial for said afterglow is going to be absurd enough so that only a few players actually get it.

My question is very simple: Why?

If Player A has a 99 Almace and Player B has a 99 Almace, they are on even ground. If Player A goes and does the insane trial for 99 Almace +1, PLAYER B reaps the reward.

"Oh, but Player A gets to glow!"

Big freakin' whoop. When it comes down to combat, your glow ain't gonna do squat while the rest of the party reaps the afterglow effect and your years of insane trial questing has left you in exactly the same place you were years ago.

From this perspective, it's actually more beneficial to me if I just stand around a few years doing NOTHING, and wait to get the benefit of someone else's afterglow.

I've twisted logic as much as I can for your past actions. But this...I can't even truly comprehend WHY you're doing it this way.

Masochism isn't something you would need to 'understand'; just take your cattleprod up the you-know-where like the rest of us and simply smile with tears coming out. To explain the 'benefits' of afterglow, you have to factor that each member actually HAS one Relic/Mythic/Empyrean in their possession already at 95. It's when each of these are at 99 with these effects that you see even a remote difference in ability. Humanly speaking, it is impossible to gather such a force of players that have these weapons to this point, and that is what SquareEnix, or rather the 'Old' Development Team desires. Those with nothing better to do with their lives or those using bots would be the ONLY ones willing to continue with this punishment. Yes, I'm flaming/trolling/bashing, but this is also the reality of the situation.

Again, YES, I'm flaming/trolling/bashing, but this is also the reality of the situation.

Of course, we don't know if this 'afterglow' effect has a moderate duration for practical use. If it only lasts 5 seconds at 300TP then there is no benefit to anyone in the middle of a heated battle. I'm not going to begin talking about possible miss rates or resistance rates, so I'll leave it to the reader's imagination.

To conclude, and to free others of my ranting, most have or will stop at 95 for their weapons. The 99s don't pack THAT much punch, and the afterglows simply aren't worth the pain unless you really like taking it up the wazoo for the team. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to address an ISSUE I have with a certain spell...

[Atomic_Skull]

Wouldn't matter if you did. With the ignorance you've been spewing for the past several posts, we have no doubt you aren't a holder and just like talking out your ass.


It would be awesome if we could bet actual money on that lol.

[Insaniac]

Masochism isn't something you would need to 'understand'; just take your cattleprod up the you-know-where like the rest of us and simply smile with tears coming out. To explain the 'benefits' of afterglow, you have to factor that each member actually HAS one Relic/Mythic/Empyrean in their possession already at 95. It's when each of these are at 99 with these effects that you see even a remote difference in ability. Humanly speaking, it is impossible to gather such a force of players that have these weapons to this point, and that is what SquareEnix, or rather the 'Old' Development Team desires. Those with nothing better to do with their lives or those using bots would be the ONLY ones willing to continue with this punishment. Yes, I'm flaming/trolling/bashing, but this is also the reality of the situation.

Again, YES, I'm flaming/trolling/bashing, but this is also the reality of the situation.

Of course, we don't know if this 'afterglow' effect has a moderate duration for practical use. If it only lasts 5 seconds at 300TP then there is no benefit to anyone in the middle of a heated battle. I'm not going to begin talking about possible miss rates or resistance rates, so I'll leave it to the reader's imagination.

To conclude, and to free others of my ranting, most have or will stop at 95 for their weapons. The 99s don't pack THAT much punch, and the afterglows simply aren't worth the pain unless you really like taking it up the wazoo for the team. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to address an ISSUE I have with a certain spell...You must have missed the official post about how these things will work but it answers pretty much all of your questions. http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19515-dev1065-Relic-Mythic-and-Empyrean-Weapon-Upgrades?p=261278#post261278

[Insaniac]

It seems the fears of SE not understanding what a reasonable trial for stage 1 is may have been justified. I'll wait for an official translation before I rage quit though.

[Greatguardian]

It would be awesome if we could bet actual money on that lol.

It wouldn't be the first time someone has ragged all over every Relic/Emp thread on these forums pretending to have a Relic when they didn't.

It wouldn't even be the second, so excuse us for not really applying any credibility to you when you say things like "lol people made lots of Mandau and Aegis despite thf/pld suk so obviously it's for completion/epeen".

Maybe people made Mandaus and Aegis' because they were some of the best relative performance increases over non-relic counterparts. Nah. Can't be that.

(inb4 Amano/Apoc/Gjallar)

[Nynja]

Seeing as how Atomic_Troll things Trashtar rapes Mandau, I'll lead to believe one of two things:
1-they dont have either weapon
2-they have a Trashtar and upset that its one of the few Emps that was never really more powerful than the relic counterpart (unless you're a dnc)

[Camate]

Greetings.

I have some additional information on enhancements to relic weapons, mythic weapons, and empyrean weapons.

The other day we announced that there would be two stages for enhancing these weapons via Trial of the Magians. During this week’s test server update we will be implementing these weapons as well adding the associated trials.

The items required to enhance the weapons are as listed below; however, the amount required is still being tested and adjusted so note that what is listed below is only temporary.

Also, along with the addition of the trials, we will be increasing the amount of zeni you receive when trading soulplates to the ZNM NPC Sanraku.

※There have been no changes to the previously announced adjustment plans.



Stage 1
Possible upgrades will include damage, delay, and weapon skill damage along with other attributes.
The planned difficulty level for the corresponding Magian upgrade trials will be such that a majority of players with the appropriate level 95 equipment will likely be able to complete them.
*This content is not yet available on the test server.
　
Stage 2
Possible upgrades will include special animations along with "Afterglow" effects that grant status benefits to party members.
The corresponding Magian trials will be exceedingly difficult to complete, such that only a select number of PCs will be able to upgrade weapons to this stage. *Gjallarhorn and Daurdabla may not be imbued with Afterglow effects.





Stage 1　※The number of items required for upgrade is temporary.
<table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="50%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Weapon Classification</td><td width="50%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Trial Information</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Relic Weapons</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.<br>Objective: 20 Umbral Marrow</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">Mythic Weapons</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 10 Mulcibar’s Scoria</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Verethragna/Almace/Farsha/Redemption/Rhongomiant/Masamune/Gandiva/Daurdabla</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 60 Riftcinder</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">Twashtar/Caladbolg/Ukonvasara/Kannagi/Gambanteinn/Hvergelmir/Armageddon/Ochain</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 60 Riftdross</td></tr></table>



Stage 2　※The number of items required for upgrade is temporary.
<table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="50%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"> Weapon Classification </td><td width="50%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"> Trial Information </td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Relic Weapons</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 1,000 Umbral Marrow</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">Mythic Weapons</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 500 Mulcibar’s Scoria</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Verethragna/Almace/Farsha/Redemption/Rhongomiant/Masamune/Gandiva/Daurdabla </td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 3,000 Riftcinder</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">Twashtar/Caladbolg/Ukonvasara/Kannagi/Gambanteinn/Hvergelmir/Armageddon/Ochain </td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 3,000 Riftdross</td></tr></table>

[Greatguardian]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20066-New-99-trials

Summary: We would vastly prefer Killshot-based trials.

[casual]

I really hope that the dev team understands how much people have to sacrifice in order to do relic trials based on Arch Dynamis Lord. To be extremely generous, people are losing at least 1mil(Likely much more) every single ADL run they go for in order to help someone complete a weapon.

[Unctgtg]

I would rather have 10000 kill shots.

[detlef]

There is no way in this day and age that I can drag a dozen or more people to do Arch-DL just for me. Imagine linkshells with dozens of relics. How much of an effort will it take to be fair to all participants?

As many have suggested, either take the number of drops down DRASTICALLY (and I mean maybe 2-3 at most) or change it from drops to kills.

This goes for PW too.

[Greatguardian]

I would rather have 10000 kill shots.

NO. DO NOT EVEN JOKE ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE THIS BECAUSE YOU KNOW SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE WILL TAKE IT SERIOUSLY AND WHEN THEY DO THE WHOLE FFXI POPULATION IS GOING TO KNOW THAT IT WAS YOUR FAULT.

[Brolic]

Greetings.

I have some additional information on enhancements to relic weapons, mythic weapons, and empyrean weapons.

The other day we announced that there would be two stages for enhancing these weapons via Trial of the Magians. During this week’s test server update we will be implementing these weapons as well adding the associated trials.

The items required to enhance the weapons are as listed below; however, the amount required is still being tested and adjusted so note that what is listed below is only temporary.

Also, along with the addition of the trials, we will be increasing the amount of zeni you receive when trading soulplates to the ZNM NPC Sanraku.

※There have been no changes to the previously announced adjustment plans.






Could the disconnect between developers and players be any larger? they clearly know fuck all about the player base?

[Washburn]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LancerLeon]

@Camate Any way the Dev team can seriously make the trial for NQ upgrade just kills? They talk so much about how Voidwatch shouldn't be giving one person all the items and that they prefer to have there own box and then they turn right around and decide that you should give one person all the items in order to achieve 1 weapon.

Well anyways as an LS leader "The Dev Team" making my job insanely hard. Just about everyone in my LS has a relic these days and getting 20 per person is gonna take over years to achieve. Dyna itself is gonna be rough because everyone is not wanna go in to farm for 1 person for almost 3 weeks straight plus I'm gonna have to deal with people crying because we're not doing their 99 Relic weapon. It would be much easier to handle if kills were the final 99 Trail for the weapon.

As for Mythic's I absolutely hate the idea of farming up 10 PW's per person. That's still 20 PW's (since we have Ryunohige and Burtang) which still aren't easy to farm up can't even do 1 a day if we tried.

For Empy's I can't speak much since VW is always being done and is easily accessible to everyone with Conquest, Imperial Standing, and Allied Notes all being usable to obtain more Void Dust for Void Stones. Still though having kills for Empy weapons would be nice since drop rate for upgrade items is random.

[Unleashhell]

Stage 1
Possible upgrades will include damage,delay, and weapon skill damage along with other attributes.
The planned difficulty level for the corresponding Magian upgrade trials will be such that a majority of players with the appropriate level 95 equipment will likely be able to complete them.
*This content is not yet available on the test server.

Just curious, were there any delay changes on any of the weapons? Has anyone noticed any? Maybe it will be a last minute thing?

[Atoreis]

60 Riftdross/cinder are really fine.
you can buy then and you should have gils for it if you have 95 empy.

10PW items is imo completely ok too since you can get more Zeni and there is not much mythics out there so its easier to actually divide supply for those who need it.

20ADL items is completely insane tho. There is MUCH too many relics out there and going to ADL involve loosing dynamis entry while going for PW involve just some time loss.

[Insaniac]

I can't believe after so many years I still haven't learned not to get my hopes up. There are so many glaring problems with these trials for relics and mythics.

Having both stage 1 and 2 trials require the same items is a very bad idea. How could anyone ever be expected to even start on stage 2 trials when 2 years later people are still collecting the same items to finish their stage 1?

Using item trials from NMs that require 18+ people to kill and produce, as far as we know, only one of those items, creates an unreasonable bottleneck even if the trials are reduced to 3-5 items. In their current state they are absolute lunacy. My LS for example would need to kill ADL 400+ times to finish our relics with the current requirement of 20 and even if lowered to 5 we would still need to kill him 100 times. By the time we are done with those there would be 5-10 new relics to complete

You may be holding on to the idea that people will form PUGs to finish these trials. You are 100% wrong. There is no desire to kill these NMs. Their drops are mostly useless. No one kills them now because they are outdated or have been pointless from day 1. Please don't assume that because 18 people that you play to test and develop your game are able to make these kills happen in a controlled setting that any single player would ever be able to put together a shout group for PW or ADL.

Basically, Stage 1 NEEDS to be changed to a kill trial and it would preferably be something that small groups of people could accomplish and it needs to be from content that people actually want to participate in. Old CoP zone boss kills or kills of timed NMs in xarcabard for relics. Odin kills or specific ZNMs for Mythics. You could even set it up like the first stages of empyreans where you are required to complete several smaller trials.

Kill ??? city NM 4 times > Kill ??? CoP NM 4 times > Kill ??? Xarc #1 NM 6 times > Kill ??? Xarc #2 NM 6 times.

That is a reasonable trial. These item trials will not accomplish the goal you set of "A majority of PCs finishing". Less than half, possibly far less than half, of relics and mythics will ever see 99 even if you lower the requirements.

[cidbahamut]

Just curious, were there any delay changes on any of the weapons? Has anyone noticed any? Maybe it will be a last minute thing?

Relic upgrades: now with more ruined x-hit builds?

[Crysten]

To the development team:

I don't know if you realized this yet, but the playerbase has long outgrown the need to spend endless manhours achieving the goals of a single person. Even more so when multiple people have relics now. The only way these trials should have been designed is kills, not items. That would promote far more teamwork and make us far happier than this tripe.

Once again, your vision of the game and what the players expect from the game are completely detached. Whenever you guys feel like designing content the players would appreciate rather than content that appeals to your morbid sense of masochism, by all means, let us know.

Regards

The playerbase

[Creelo]

20ADL items is completely insane tho. There is MUCH too many relics out there and going to ADL involve loosing dynamis entry while going for PW involve just some time loss.

Could you imagine the congestion in Dynamis - Xarc for doing this trial? >.<

Please SE... At least make it Kills.

[Coldbrand]

Yeah items is terrible, let any currently existing ones be traded in to be counted as a killshot or refunded for some item or gil or something. No one wants to play gear up the LS PLD lead's shield for a year.

[Damane]

its retarded beyond believe...

[Nervosa]

I don't care if the numbers are temporary, why even put a number then.
Seems like the Dev Team just wants to troll the community and get a reaction.

The requirement for Stage 2 should be what you have listed for Stage 1. (maybe x2 as much if you want to keep it "exceedingly difficult")
If Stage 1 is for the majority of players, it should be something random people could get together and do while still being difficult for someone to solo or duo. (like have weapon equipped while killing PW or ADL)

With the current numbers, the game will be dead before anyone finishes a stage 2 to have a glow effect that doesn't help them at all.

Alot of people use FFXI as a glorified chat room. You are not offering any new content to keep plays in the game and with each dev update you just slap them in the face.

[Insaniac]

Why is it that every time I start a sentence with "I don't think SE is dumb enough to..." the end of the sentence is always something they turn out to be dumb enough to actually do.

[SpankWustler]

Summary: We would vastly prefer Killshot-based trials.

This. Even if the number of kills would be a little bit higher than the number of items needed, I think a large majority would prefer Arch-Dynamis Lord and Pandemonium Warden kills rather than drops.

Plus, the drops from those kills could give the few, the deranged, and the subterranean some hope of completing the second trial before the servers go down or they go insane.

[Cowardlybabooon]

You guys actually want the FINAL trial to take only a week? I agree with SE on the amounts shown for V1. V2 is insane though.

[Insaniac]

Considering I've already spent easily 200 personal hours on my mandau (who knows how many man hours) and 150 hours on my Aegis, yes, a week long trial would be reasonable. Mythics should just get handed their 99 because they have had a shit sandwich since day 1.

[Rezeak]

Kill shot trail please // (u can have both trials if ya want SE)
Killshots should be 20ish and item should be 5ish for stage 1

[Nynja]

When it comes to the first stage of upgrades for relic/mythic/empyrean weapons, this is considered to be the weapon’s complete form and is also the one the developers expect most players can achieve. They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.

Are you sure about that? The math shows that with a set group of 18 people, going every day, you're going to finish one relic per month. It's still going to be a small fraction of players...


You guys actually want the FINAL trial to take only a week? I agree with SE on the amounts shown for V1. V2 is insane though.

With the proposed numbers, its one month per relic per person. So if you and your 5 friends all have 1 relic, thats 6 months to push them all to 99. If you have 2 relics, and your 5 friends all have 1 relic each, thats 7 months to push them all to 99.


20 killshots is still somewhat annoying because you STILL need to have an alliance capable of killing ADL. Despite being lv90 content, theres still a chance to wipe at 99 fully prepared, so you cant exactly go at it with 18 melee looking to upgrade weapons.

To quell the rage, they're going to have to either:
a-Make it kills, not item turn-in
b-make Umbral Marrow / Mulcibar's Scoria drop from additional sources based on difficulty:
Arch Dynamis City boss: 1 Marrow
Arch Mainyu / Arch CC/Antaeus/AB: 3 marrow
Arch Diabolos: 5 marrow
Arch DL: 8 marrow

Tinnin/Sarameya/Khimaira(I forget the name haha): 1 Mulcibar
PW: 5 Mulcibar

[Nervosa]

You guys actually want the FINAL trial to take only a week? I agree with SE on the amounts shown for V1. V2 is insane though.

Not one week, but it shouldnt take almost a year to finish (Stage2) if you're able to brainwash your LS to do your bidding.
It seems dev team is still stuck somewhere in 2003/04, the players and way people play have drastically changed since then.
The game is showing its age, SE bombed on 14 and even WoW is losing people.
SE should listen to the community, realize how asinine things are (not just 99 weapon trials) and stop throwing around the word balance.

[Insaniac]

Just decided I'm done being trolled by these guys. I'm letting my account deactivate at the end of the month. I may come back if they fix it but probably not.

[Washburn]

Just decided I'm done being trolled by these guys. I'm letting my account deactivate at the end of the month. I may come back if they fix it but probably not.

I'm thinking the same. Star Wars looks fun.

I'll quit before i organize 400~ arch DL fights for my LS.

[Alerith]

Now, now, I don't think there's actually any reason to rage-quit over this really. Unless of course not having a 99 is going to absolutely murder you on the inside.

If you don't want to drag anyone out to do this kind of stuff, do what I intend do. Don't do it.

Hell, I'm still sitting on an 85 Almace simply because I'm saving my brews for Azdaja instead of Apademak. But I'm still happy with it and it performs just fine.

[Chriscoffey]

LOL I bet Camate has panic attacks when he post half this information to the English player base. I hope they change it to kill shots but my SE senses tell me otherwise.

[Nervosa]

Now, now, I don't think there's actually any reason to rage-quit over this really. Unless of course not having a 99 is going to absolutely murder you on the inside.
The people that say they are quitting, I doubt it's solely because of this. They're just done with the BS.

[SpankWustler]

LOL I bet Camate has panic attacks when he post half this information to the English player base.

The reason for the Behemoth avatar is so it matches the meteors of information he's dropping. I imagine him like a bombardier as depicted in Catch 22 or M*A*S*H. He looks away, says a little prayer for the people on the receiving end, then presses the Enter key and lets that payload fly.

Except his finger moved when he looked away so it was actually the Shift key, and he has to look again.

[Sparthos]

It's the frustration of the company failing to understand what 'reasonable' means.

20 ADLs per person is not reasonable. Not reasonable by any stretch of the human imagination.

[Kitkat]

Now, now, I don't think there's actually any reason to rage-quit over this really. Unless of course not having a 99 is going to absolutely murder you on the inside.

If you don't want to drag anyone out to do this kind of stuff, do what I intend do. Don't do it.

Hell, I'm still sitting on an 85 Almace simply because I'm saving my brews for Azdaja instead of Apademak. But I'm still happy with it and it performs just fine.

Thing is, this isn't all encompasing. Emps gain base/stat increases yes, but relic and mythic get performance boosters with the upgrades so your argument isn't as valid in comparison. People have been made to jump through more and more hoops to keep a weapon up where it was supposed to be.

Sadly, just like Unctgtg said, I'd much rather just do a ton of WS kills over subjecting 17 others into doing a fight 10/20/60x per weapon. Especially when pertaining to content that is time restricted and requires several lower tier NM kills just to get to the one that drops the item needed.

Gotta agree with insaniac and couple others...moving on is looking more and more worth my time. There is nothing reasonable of item per weapon trials on ADL/PW being as it isn't as accessible as VWNM's...especially when they have virtually nothing anyone wants to entice others into fighting that many for the items.

[Damane]

The people that say they are quitting, I doubt it's solely because of this. They're just done with the BS.

This pritty much sums it up. We have been given only slaps into the face lately.

[JofJAX]

I seriously don't understand what the dev team is thinking with this trial. 20 items with hundreds of relic owners after them is a major oversight... Change it to 20 ADL Kills and everyone will be happy...

[Zarchery]

Can we negotiate with Tanka? So that, like, he'll release my wife and children from his evil clutches in exchange for 750 Umbral Marrow instead of 1000?

Wait what? Tanaka isn't an evil overlord who kidnapped my wife and children and is threatening to kill them? He's just a game developer and this is all a video game that people are supposed to play for fun? Sorry. I guess I got confused by the temperature of some of these posts.

[Alhanelem]

SE really needs to realize that even the most hardcore players who are most likely to complete these trials, do not want to have to spend every waking minute working on them, and not be able to play any other content.

[Heabea]

i like the PW thing... for 500 PW, you need 35.5m Zeni if my math is correct (this assumes u buy 9 1k t1, 9 2k t2, 9 3k t3, 3 4k t4, 1 5k pw). Let's say you get 100 per plate like you do now, that's 355k plates. You can hand in 10 per game day, so that's 35.5k game days. Let's say you hand in for all 24hrs of the day cuz ur cool like that's 1480 real life days. that's 4yrs and 2 months roughly...

I know that the number of zeni per photo will go up like Camate said, but what 1k per photo, still 148 full days, or if u just hand in half the amount u can in a day, 300 days...

Seriously dev team you already had some issues with press and PW before, want another one with this stuff too?

[Nala]

Having both stage 1 and 2 trials require the same items is a very bad idea.

very bad idea. very bad idea. very bad idea. very bad idea. very bad idea. very bad idea. very bad idea.

i thought i'd try and be subtle... hope they get the hint.

@Heabea you forgot to factor in the 500 zeni charge for all members participating in a TIV, so lets say 6-12 that can be 3-6k x 3 so 9-18k more zeni and i dont recall if PW himself reqires zeni to reach but if so factor that in now...

[Heabea]

I meant to write that i didn't add that in, but yeah it's another 750k per person lol... then again u can do multiple at once if your not the only person popping

[Raksha]

Why not just buy the DL items?

I mean really, it doesn't seem all that bad.

If you changed it to killshot requirements then you'd have alliances with like 12 aegis PLD and 6 dual boxed whms.

Good luck killing arch DL with that

[Psxpert2011]

Such is not the deffinition of an MMO sadly. Most are simply just people playing the same thing.

... believe this?


There is, actually. This is a MMORPG. It's meant to be played with other people. Having an AoE effect will help your party and thus help you. For people wanting epeen, this is useless (even counterproductive), for people wanting efficiency and a weapon that will help their party, linkshell and friends, and by extension themselves, this is pretty cool. If only the AoE effect wasn't sucky, that is, but that's another issue altogether. There's nothing wrong with the logic behind this. And if it's at all doable in the future I'll also try to get to this point.

Not the definition that makes obvious sense to some human beings but yeah, your absolutely right! Motivation and cooperative community driven, even if it's just a sprinkle. Some just don't get it.

[Nynja]

Why not just buy the DL items?

I mean really, it doesn't seem all that bad.

If you changed it to killshot requirements then you'd have alliances with like 12 aegis PLD and 6 dual boxed whms.

Good luck killing arch DL with that

Let me know whens the last time you found Umbral items for sale...

[Raksha]

Let me know whens the last time you found Umbral items for sale...

I'm sure you can find someone to merc you some.

And besides, when they start selling for 10M+ each i'm sure the supply will increase

[Insaniac]

Why not just buy the DL items?

I mean really, it doesn't seem all that bad.

If you changed it to killshot requirements then you'd have alliances with like 12 aegis PLD and 6 dual boxed whms.

Good luck killing arch DL with that

You really think people will sell them? There is no other reason to do ADL. No one is spamming ADL for sagasingers. People who kill ADL will be killing it for the upgrade item in other words no one will ever sell them. Considering you need 18~ people to kill ADL and 1 person can make an easy mil+ in their own solo dynamis run no one will do this for gil unless they can sell them for 20mil each.

[Nynja]

I've done the math in another thread...they'll be selling for 20 mil each minimum to be worthwhile. 400 mil to upgrade your relic from 95 to 99, YAAAAAY

[abbazabba]

Also, along with the addition of the trials, we will be increasing the amount of zeni you receive when trading soulplates to the ZNM NPC Sanraku.

Will you also remove the 10 plates a day limit? you must either allow us to get enough zeni for atleast a t1 and a t2 so we have something to do for the one hour we have to wait or you have to remove the limit. I don't feel you will allow us to get 300 per plate. So I would prefer the cap was removed.





Stage 1　※The number of items required for upgrade is temporary.
<table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="50%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Weapon Classification</td><td width="50%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">Trial Information</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Relic Weapons</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.<br>Objective: 20 Umbral Marrow</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">Mythic Weapons</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 10 Mulcibar’s Scoria</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Verethragna/Almace/Farsha/Redemption/Rhongomiant/Masamune/Gandiva/Daurdabla</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 60 Riftcinder</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">Twashtar/Caladbolg/Ukonvasara/Kannagi/Gambanteinn/Hvergelmir/Armageddon/Ochain</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 60 Riftdross</td></tr></table>




Personally I feel these are all to much to want a player to do for a small stat increase. I'm not saying they aren't doable or that people wont do them. I know they will in fact. People bought the 1500 plates for a tiny increase.

Relics will take a minimum of 20 days for most people. ADL requires a perfect defense zerg strategy that means one kill for one marrow per day. you can easily farm 2-3 sets after you kill ADL but you can't do him twice in a row. That's 2/3 a month per person requiring 18 people to not do any other dynamis. Many people make their gil selling currency so now they can't make gil or can't upgrade their relic. This is all for one person. I feel killing him 20 times would be much better. If you don't go with kills I would make it 10 umbra.

The time required to make 10 PW is 220 hours of just getting and turning in pictures currently. You did say you were lowering it though. Tack on say 10-20 more to kill everything. Its vastly easier to kill then ADL as well. Mythic's cost more then Relics in the begining and have worse trials. Don't know why they have an easier trial this time. I would bump this up to 20 kills but if you don't go with kills I would leave it alone.

Empyreans are shafted again. I understand they are easier to make and for the most part have better ws. But you seem to think that people did all 175 items to get to 90 by farming them. I know most people pay for a lot of the pop items. You're also most likely brewing some of the kills. i brewed 4 at a time for all my 90 items. 1500 plates
costs the same as a relic but the supply is to small. You should have added heavy metal to all of jeuno 2 and pouches to tier 6. The Rift cinder / dross should be lowered to 10 or make it 50 kills of flan and ogre. At current prices they are 300k on most servers making empyreans more expensive then mythics to take to 99.





Stage 2　※The number of items required for upgrade is temporary.
<table width="580" border="0" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="1" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="50%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"> Weapon Classification </td><td width="50%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"> Trial Information </td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Relic Weapons</td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 1,000 Umbral Marrow</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">Mythic Weapons</td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 500 Mulcibar’s Scoria</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3">Verethragna/Almace/Farsha/Redemption/Rhongomiant/Masamune/Gandiva/Daurdabla </td><td bgcolor="#eaf2f3"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 3,000 Riftcinder</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#f5fafb">Twashtar/Caladbolg/Ukonvasara/Kannagi/Gambanteinn/Hvergelmir/Armageddon/Ochain </td><td bgcolor="#f5fafb"> Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item. <br>Objective: 3,000 Riftdross</td></tr></table>


All of these are unreasonable. Personally I would make the relic and mythic 50 and the empyrean 100.

SE doesn't seem to grasp mmo game design. They have no idea what a quality of life issue is. Their riding the dieing wave of first generation time = difficulty. Their risk vs reward is quite possibly the worst. I don't know what to say I guess ffxi was a fluke that it was so superior to other first generation mmos. They haven't adapted as well as everquest. The only other still relevent first generation mmo.

[Creelo]

Why not just buy the DL items?

I mean really, it doesn't seem all that bad.

If you changed it to killshot requirements then you'd have alliances with like 12 aegis PLD and 6 dual boxed whms.

Good luck killing arch DL with that

This is a wrong, horrible post... You realize that Umbral Marrow (if it is sold) is probably going to be selling for 10-20 MILLION gil EACH, possibly even more?

Oh sure, that doesn't seem all that bad.

If you haven't fought Arch DL, seen Arch DL be fought, or don't understand the premise behind fighting Arch DL, then please, don't post your thoughts about how you feel this trial "doesn't seem all that bad," because you don't have a clue.

And for clarification, we mean "Kills" as in everyone with a relic would be receiving credit for the "Kill." I know people are intending for "Killshot" to mean the same thing, but I kinda feel like "Killshot" sort of implies killing something with just one weapon, or with a weaponskill, and I don't want SE or the Dev. Team to get the wrong idea... (inb4 20 ADL Killshots with Mercy Stroke!) >.<

[Babygyrl]

This is doable for "most" relic owners? Ha.. Good one!! Not a chance.... this is terrible seriously.. This is not going t okeep people around.. this is going to make people quit..

[Soidisant]

The only way 20 ADL items is going to be reasonable is if the changes to AoE damage make it feasible to kill him without PD and so allow you to kill 3-4 per run. And even then it's going to be a huge PITA.

At the minute there's 15 Relics in my LS and I am absolutely certain that not a single one of them will upgraded if the trial remains as is. It's just not feasible for us to kill 300+ ADL as a LS and it would never be fair to focus on a single persons relic with that sort of backlog.

No LS is going to want to go in daily. Christ, I get maybe 3-4 hours a day free time on working days and no way am I booking up 2 hours a day for 80% of the next year just to upgrade my Apoc + Ragnarok along with everyone elses relic in the LS. I'd be basically playing solely to upgrade Relics from 95 > 99 if we went down that route and I imagine it would be the same for a lot of people in my LS and a lot of other LS'es out there.


It's says a lot when I'd rather do the 10 PW items, 60 Riftdross and 60 Riftcinder combined rather than the just 20 Umbral Marrows. Because in all honesty, I think the Mythic and both Empy trials combined are still overall easier than the 20 Umbral Marrows. Would take longer for 1 individual weapon but overall it would be easier as you wouldn't be limited by 1 ADL per day and needing so many people to safely/consistently kill plus those people also have to forego their Dyna entry for the day.

[Geabrielle]

First of all, thank you for taking the time and consideration to actual LOWER the number of required items in the first place. In comparison to the old trial numbers this is a breath of relief and I thoroughly applaud the information. Thank you Camate, thank you every much for bearing the brunt of a frustrated player base.

Yes, these are still ridiculous trials but at this stage in the game I expect ridiculous trials. These are the FINALs, friends, the end of the road and it's mean to be this epic. So feel free to rage quit, feel free to hollar about it like and completely forget the fact that you are supposed to be veteran players of FF11 NOT some pansy WoW player who wants to be epic in 5 minutes and throws a tantrum.

This is a GAME, its supposed to be a time sink of varying degrees based upon the flavor of the player's disposition. Feel free to go on a rage and flame fit now, if you wish. I'm adult enough not to care. Send all mail to whineyflamingbabies@wambulance.mail.com.

Good eve.

[Urteil]

SE finally proves it is retarded.

[Babygyrl]

You guys actually want the FINAL trial to take only a week? I agree with SE on the amounts shown for V1. V2 is insane though.


To put it Bluntly YES, it takes enough Time to build the thing from scratch to begin with it still takes at least months to build the relic from stage 1 up to 99, relic owners have done ENOUGH item collecting already. Emps you can build in a freaking week! and mythics requirements are just ridiculous period so thats another story. Relic Owners do not want to do any more item collecting! They should make the last trial fun, Enjoyable and Doable in a reasonable amount of time.These are clearly NOT. Hell all of them should.

[Nynja]

You can spam Alima/Rex all day long with 18 people and possibly get all 60 dross/cinders in a day. The same effort in the same time frame wouldnt even dent the mythic/relic trial despite the much lower requirement.


lol

[Helel]

First of all, thank you for taking the time and consideration to actual LOWER the number of required items in the first place. In comparison to the old trial numbers this is a breath of relief and I thoroughly applaud the information. Thank you Camate, thank you every much for bearing the brunt of a frustrated player base.

Yes, these are still ridiculous trials but at this stage in the game I expect ridiculous trials. These are the FINALs, friends, the end of the road and it's mean to be this epic. So feel free to rage quit, feel free to hollar about it like and completely forget the fact that you are supposed to be veteran players of FF11 NOT some pansy WoW player who wants to be epic in 5 minutes and throws a tantrum.

This is a GAME, its supposed to be a time sink of varying degrees based upon the flavor of the player's disposition. Feel free to go on a rage and flame fit now, if you wish. I'm adult enough not to care. Send all mail to whineyflamingbabies@wambulance.mail.com.

Good eve.

What are you even talking about dude...

#1: there was NO trial previous to today, so how could they have decreased the required items for a trial that never existed?
#2: the items required for stage 2 are exactly the same as they were yesterday.


The planned difficulty level for the corresponding Magian upgrade trials will be such that a majority of players with the appropriate level 95 equipment will likely be able to complete them.

No? The majority of players with 95 equipment? How does that even factor into being able to complete this trial? You need 11-17 other people willing to kill ADL with you, and then you need 1-2 SMNs (which has nothing to do with gear), and then you need to win the lot; you also need to sacrifice millions of gil every day you do ADL instead of farm currency. Overall, the relic trials are utterly ridiculous, especially in comparison to empyrean. 60 rift items lol? Seriously? I could have had that done now before the trial is even released.

You can spam VW NMs; you cannot spam ADL; and you cannot spam PW. Someone suggested that you need to make the upgrade items drop from the lower tier NMs. This is an excellent suggestion and should definitely be considered.

[Geabrielle]

Oh you know what, you're correct. ALL of this is just temporary numerical values that have people screaming like children. Oh my! AND they reduced them from their previous high values to something along the lines of being a little more reasonable ... in already temporary unestablished values.

Your point is??!!

If you are having trouble gaining 17 other people to aid in completing a relic trial I suppose it's wise to start gathering some eh? This is an MMO last I checked and thus should involve some level of team play that isn't a second account and 10 minutes of spontaneous afk. I am working on Mythic, Relic and I have an Empyrean and my only grief is the 1500 plate requirement for 95, and only thisi because it went from what should have been 150 in natural progression became 1500. Other than that, it's just something to deal with.

[Taint2]

You can spam Alima/Rex all day long with 18 people and possibly get all 60 dross/cinders in a day. The same effort in the same time frame wouldnt even dent the mythic/relic trial despite the much lower requirement.


lol


Not to mention there are 2 more VW updates that could drop more. I'm pissed I sold all of my Cinder/Dross last week when the JPs were shouting for them, obviously they knew about this before the NA crowd.

[Karbuncle]

As much as i hate SE's idea of making every relic holder hate eachother (hi multiple people fighting over 1 single item), If they just made it drop off all Arch-Dynamis mobs, It might be more tolerable...

Cause in reality, How many Relics are there per server? Think logically for a moment, How often do you actually think the ?? for Arch Dynamis lord will be available?

Is it really such a foreign concept to allow Relic Trials to continue to be done in Tandem? Every trial since the first has been doable by teaming up, Why change that now? The hundreds of "Turn in X of this Item" is getting very old. (Geodes, Avatar-ites, Empyreans as a whole...)

It promotes people working against each other rather than with eachother...

[casual]

You are an idiot. @ person who was siding with this trial, not the other two who posted in the time I didn't refresh. :(

[Nynja]

To quell the rage, they're going to have to either:
a-Make it kills, not item turn-in
b-make Umbral Marrow / Mulcibar's Scoria drop from additional sources based on difficulty:
Arch Dynamis City boss: 1 Marrow
Arch Mainyu / Arch CC/Antaeus/AB: 3 marrow
Arch Diabolos: 5 marrow
Arch DL: 8 marrow

Tinnin/Sarameya/Khimaira(I forget the name haha): 1 Mulcibar
PW: 5 Mulcibar

quoting so it doesnt get lost.

[Nightfyre]

You guys actually want the FINAL trial to take only a week? I agree with SE on the amounts shown for V1. V2 is insane though.
I think it would be more accurate to say that we want effort and reward to be better linked. Given how minor the upgrades are for many weapons (let's be realistic here, not every weapon is best off using their unique WS), yes, the final trial should be fairly short. The current trials though... for perspective, though I'm sure it's been said already, the final relic stage is likely to have a total cost in the range of 400 million gil or more given that you could have been amassing currency instead of playing roulette with Arch DL. If the 99 trial literally crushed all options sans other 99 weapons then it might engender a different response, though I still think the competitive nature of this trial is foolish. Waiting lists promote no good will and could potentially generate quite the opposite.

If there are mitigating factors that will lower the opportunity cost of upgrading a 99 weapon, they need to be made clear immediately. If there are none, the devs are shooting themselves in the foot yet again.

EDIT: One caveat with making it kills is that any late upgraders are going to have a hell of a time getting their weapons to 99. As such, I'd still consider lowering the requirements if that option was chosen.

[Geabrielle]

@ Karbuncle Do you think they might do the multiple ??? in the case of this release, perhaps?

Since I'm already going be eating forum Molatav cocktails I may as well say that I think the logic behind it throw everyone into a situation that makes teamwork necessary, even if its going to put them at each others throats. It's the same mechanics we ran into back in HNM days and sadly( and joyously for teamwork) it's being pulled in that direction.

Also, since it looks like we're going to be stuck with item gathering isn't it better to accept a reduction in number while SE is being 'generous'?? Everything is still temporary, lest we forget, and I doubt they'll change things to kill trials when the items for collection are already in game.

BTW ... I like Nynja's idea. I like it a LOT. If that is what we must be stuck with....

[Dekusuta]

How on earth do you plan for communities to do all these trials when only 1 person in the alliance/pt can possibly benefit?

killshots? or will be get trials going to upwards of 10-20k kills?

[Raksha]

This is a wrong, horrible post... You realize that Umbral Marrow (if it is sold) is probably going to be selling for 10-20 MILLION gil EACH, possibly even more?

Oh sure, that doesn't seem all that bad.

If you haven't fought Arch DL, seen Arch DL be fought, or don't understand the premise behind fighting Arch DL, then please, don't post your thoughts about how you feel this trial "doesn't seem all that bad," because you don't have a clue.

And for clarification, we mean "Kills" as in everyone with a relic would be receiving credit for the "Kill." I know people are intending for "Killshot" to mean the same thing, but I kinda feel like "Killshot" sort of implies killing something with just one weapon, or with a weaponskill, and I don't want SE or the Dev. Team to get the wrong idea... (inb4 20 ADL Killshots with Mercy Stroke!) >.<

Presume much? I've wiped to Arch Dynamis Lord a total of 3 times (pre-99-cap). I realize how retarded the fight is.

People thought 1500 plates was retarded too.

What's a relic cost these days anyway? 150M+?

So 150M sounds reasonable but 550M doesn't?

Anyway, I think the requirement should be lowered.

I still think the HMP requirements should be lowered.

Doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

P.S. i'm checking out before I start a flame war. SE should lower the requirements, we can all agree to that.

[Sargent]

The planned difficulty level for the corresponding Magian upgrade trials will be such that a majority of players with the appropriate level 95 equipment will likely be able to complete them.

20 Umbral Marrow's for a single Relic to 99 is still ridiculous, considering how much of a gamble Arch Dynamis Lord is said to be. This definatly needs lowering. The same with Mulcibar's Scolar, it's much easier to get a Pandemonium Warden pop now but that said it's still a lot of effort to go into a single weapon, and thats the issue at hand. Kills with the weapon equipped for Relics and Mythics would tie in more with SE's original statement.
The Empryean 99 trial isn't as bad as people were expecting.

[Karbuncle]

@ Karbuncle Do you think they might do the multiple ??? in the case of this release, perhaps?

Since I'm already going be eating forum Molatav cocktails I may as well say that I think the logic behind it throw everyone into a situation that makes teamwork necessary, even if its going to put them at each others throats. It's the same mechanics we ran into back in HNM days and sadly( and joyously for teamwork) it's being pulled in that direction.

Also, since it looks like we're going to be stuck with item gathering isn't it better to accept a reduction in number while SE is being 'generous'?? Everything is still temporary, lest we forget, and I doubt they'll change things to kill trials when the items for collection are already in game.

BTW ... I like Nynja's idea. I like it a LOT. If that is what we must be stuck with....

Even if they add 2-3 ???'s for Arch Dynamis Lord, Have you ever even fought it? You can do that fight perfectly and still lose because it comes down to -dumb luck-.

Getting 20 of an Item from a mob that is truly just dumb-luck to win, and needing at least ~17 other people to help you do it if you want any room for error (Who will likely all have relics too, Why else do it?) is nothing short of unreasonable.

If the NM wasn't just dumb luck, I'd have no issues with it. It shouldn't even be killshots, the NM is bullcrap.

I wouldn't care if they made it "Earn 50,000 exp In Dynamis" or something similar to the Relic+2 Trials. Just not a "Free-for-all Frenzy of Relic Holders mass-lotting against eachother for 1 item from a Dumb-Luck NM".

Or, As suggested other places.

Make it to where you have to kill Every "Arch" Dynamis boss once.
Or as Nynja said, Have them drop it in larger quantities based on difficulty.

The idea should be promote Teamwork amongst Relic Holders, Not competition. No one wants the damn Drama or "17 people farming for 1 guy" days back.


So 150M sounds reasonable but 550M doesn't?

You're right >_> 400 Million gil makes no difference at all.

[Creelo]

Presume much? I've wiped to Arch Dynamis Lord a total of 3 times (pre-99-cap). I realize how retarded the fight is.

People thought 1500 plates was retarded too.

What's a relic cost these days anyway? 150M+?

So 150M sounds reasonable but 550M doesn't?

Anyway, I think the requirement should be lowered.

I still think the HMP requirements should be lowered.

Doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

P.S. i'm checking out before I start a flame war. SE should lower the requirements, we can all agree to that.

Hun, you're contradicting yourself.

And since when was 150mil or especially 550mil ever reasonable? Not everyone buys their relics lol

[Geabrielle]

Arch-Dyna lord reminds me of DL back when you needed 2 alliances to beat him. So I agree with you there, completely. Where we differ is that the item already exists, which negates the possibility of ever getting it shifted to a kill trial, OR if it does, the extra glowey trial will need the item instead and the hardcore achievement people will still gripe and complain. I'm willing to accept a lower number as a compromise which is honestly the best we're going to get so may as well as well plug for a greater range of NMs to drop said items in quantities relative to difficulty.

Otherwise we'll get stuck with "Gain 50k exp in Dynamis, Kill ADL 50 times AND gather 20 items..." Don't give them that excuse .... please!!

[Helel]

quoting so it doesnt get lost.

Yeah this was the best suggestion so far. Quoting again!


To quell the rage, they're going to have to either:
a-Make it kills, not item turn-in
b-make Umbral Marrow / Mulcibar's Scoria drop from additional sources based on difficulty:
Arch Dynamis City boss: 1 Marrow
Arch Mainyu / Arch CC/Antaeus/AB: 3 marrow
Arch Diabolos: 5 marrow
Arch DL: 8 marrow

Tinnin/Sarameya/Khimaira(I forget the name haha): 1 Mulcibar
PW: 5 Mulcibar

[SpankWustler]

And since when was 150mil or especially 550mil ever reasonable? Not everyone buys their relics lol

Choosing to spend the currency on a relic over selling that currency has the same effect as buying the currency. You're down a certain amount of currency and you have a relic. Opportunity cost and such.

I think that kills would be way better than farming items for the first trials, but gil cost is a pretty accurate way to gauge this stuff.

Speaking of gil cost, I have to wonder if these items will sell for more than 20 million on a few servers. There's bound to be some guy out with a bazillion gil saved up who is willing to pay 30 million each for the 1000 items to make his afterglow weapon. Someone "dedicated" enough to realistically complete the Final Trial of Lonesome Sadness probably has tons of gil on his characters already.

I say "he" because while it's entirely possible a woman will undertake these trials, imagining such a woman would render me no longer abler to function as a heterosexual male.

[Arkanethered]

I don't have a huge network of friends that I would want to press into farming me ADL... Sorry folks, but I don't want to ask them to make that sacrifice just for me.... As much as I enjoyed the days of HNM competition. I have enjoyed teaming up with other Relic Holders in completing trials... I don't want to compete against people for drops on this.

Square Enix... This is stupid.

[Insaniac]

ADL and PW need to be abandoned entirely as a part of this trial. 18 man content for the benefit of 1 person is dead. Even if changed to kills anyone not involved in the initial wave of kills is ABSO-F*CKED when they need them done. That includes any weapons not yet completed and anyone on break who is returning to the game.

These 2 NMs offer nothing to entice anyone not working on a trial to kill them. They are not reasonable trial targets.

People are making the mistake of trying to talk down an already insane price to a lower price that is still insane. Demand trials that have nothing to do with these otherwise worthless NMs.

[Arkanethered]

If they continue with this... Marrows should be added to NQ DL's pool.

[Frost]

If converted to "Arch Dynamis Lord Kills" the following would happen:

Teamwork, you'd have groups of people banding together to do this fight, and everyone involved benefits.

Umbral Marrow, since it's still needed for the ridiculous second trial, it's actually make it available for people to try. When you have hundreds of teams killing Arch Dynamis Lords, eventually "A Select Few" will be able to attain the supply needed to finish that trial.

Also needing recognition:

Time Limits, It hasnt' been brought up at all, I'm amazed. You can only be in Dynamis for two hours, once a day.

The pre-pop NMs needed to pop Arch Dynamis Lord need a considerable amount of man power and time to kill too.

In short these trials will NEVER be done "In a Week".


And the big thing that seems to be forgotten:

Some of use spent in upwards of Two years doing Dynamis:
>> Throwing money into the void, upwards of two years of Hourglasses at 1,000,000 Gil a pop.
>> Gathering 32-64 people together for the benefit of one person, and all the problems that come with that.
>> Trading ancient currencies.
>> The waits needed between trials.
>> Finding crafters for the requested weapons.
>> Setting up "lost runs" that were dedicated to killing attestation monsters, repeatedly because the drop wasn't guaranteed.
>> Setting up "lost runs" to farm the fragment NMs only to have them warp out on you. and having to set up another run to retry.

Then:
Subsequent trials where you need to Killshot countless monsters. Yes you lowered them. But some of us actually did it "The hard way" upwards of 9,000 monsters, +/- misses.

Then:
Kill your attestation monster 5 times.
Not so bad now cause you can pop multiples, but when I did it, that meant another 5 hourglasses at 500,000 Gil ea.

Then:
Kill your Fragment NM 10 times, which was reasonable.

20 Ubral Marrows seems a bit high to me. But 20 Arch Dynamis Lord kills seems Decent to Good. It benefits everyone helping and could be fun in the end.

[Dew]

The normal trials should have nothing to do with the stage2 ones. Having the same item for both is retarded. Stage 1 should be totally different from stage 2. Collecting lower amount of the same retarded to get items isn't any better. With the current requirements they posted, it will be select few for stage1 and that one guy for stage2.

[Creelo]

Choosing to spend the currency on a relic over selling that currency has the same effect as buying the currency. You're down a certain amount of currency and you have a relic. Opportunity cost and such.


Yes, I understand what you're saying; however, that still doesn't take away from the fact that not everyone buys their relic lol, I'll explain what I mean.

You can do Dynamis everyday, save the currency you get and effectively be "spending" your gil through opportunity cost as you're saying. This can easily get you a Relic if your patient enough. But not everyone does this; some people may go through other types of making gil: Cruor burning, Merc'in, Salvage -> Alexandrite selling, etc, in addition to doing daily Dynamis. When I refer to people who "buy" relics, it's generally these people that are simply really into making gil that I'm refering to, which I don't have a problem with.

The problem I have is when people say shit like...



What's a relic cost these days anyway? 150M+?

So 150M sounds reasonable but 550M doesn't?


Sure, I may have spent 150mil on a relic through opportunity cost, but does that mean I want to be spending an additional 400mil (20mil~ x20) or have the funds (or the drive x.x) to readily be able to do so after I put in what I feel is enough work?

No. Just because a relic may be worth 150mil~ in opportunity cost doesn't mean the player that owns it is busting at the seams with gil, ready to spend over twice as much as they did on the 75 weapon for the Stage 1 99 version.

What's the difference between 150mil and 550mil? 400mil (Derr), which could roughly translate into almost 3 more relics for my friends. :/

Fuck this, give me the Mythic Trial; at least I don't have to drag my friends to hell for all of it and can suffer in solitude as I take pictures on my own time of Sanraku's latest fetish.

[Mahoro]

If they lifted the once a day restriction on Dynamis, I could ALMOST see this as being possible. As it stands, this is going to be painstaking. The frequency of Dynamis Arch Boss events have tanked in my own LS because people use their time to farm currency/gil and lock themselves out when event time comes. Funny enough though, these are the same members who have all of a sudden expressed interest in Arch Boss events again, so I might use the opportunity to get members those last few Avesta Bangles/Oneiros Grips we needed. o-O

Also, people actually do want the glowy sword from ADL, even though drop rate is crappy. Then again, VW drop rate is crappy, although admittedly you can spam that.

[Daniel]

I'll be honest, 20 Umbral marrow doesn't sound reasonable for anyone I know never mind most relic holders. Do you know how many LS there are out there that can do Arch Dynamis lord at all never mind consistently? I don't know a single one... Too make matters worse, we need the same item as for the Stage two trial...

thanks allot SE, that's just wonderful, now not only do I have to compete for an impossibly hard item with 18-50 other people, I also have to compete with what ever psycho wants to get the afterglow effect...

[Vold]

I just don't understand why relics can't be "earn a crap ton of exp in x zone" or "kill Dynamis Lord 20 times" instead of this Arch Dynamis Lord non sense. Everyone's busy being dedicated to bargaining a compromise for ADL but I say screw that noise. Relic trials have a pattern up to level 95 involving Dynamis. Instead of doing the next logical trial of taking on the DL himself, they skip him for the Arch version. What the eff.

Did we learn NOTHING with augments and the playerbase? We WANT to work for our rewards. We WANT crap not handed to us on a silver platter. What we do NOT want is to never be able to achieve our frickin' goals. Make us do 200,000 exp in Xarc. Make us do 20 DLs. Make us do SOMETHING that is feasible with work. The days of little reward for our invested time is over. Accept it, or risk getting left behind by your customers for greener pastures. It really is that. damn. simple.

And I'm sorry for anyone who does not understand that and wants to applaud such content design decisions. But the fact is when a game reaches a certain point in it's life span, namely when the dev company cuts support for their flagship MMO to try to make a new MMO the new flagship MMO or customers beat you to the punch and start looking elsewhere for their dollars, you have to change your strategy up to maintain current customers. This is not maintaining customers. This is giving the middle finger to them. You might not intend for it to happen, but that's exactly what it is in our view.

We are an aging playerbase. We don't have what it takes anymore to be doing what we did years ago. We want to work for stuff. We just don't want it to be nigh impossible. There are already a select few who owns these weapons, relics, mythics AND Empyreans. Compared to the entire population yes it's a select few. We already paid our dues and then some. We really don't need to have level 99 trials on any ultimate weapons to be the most devastating trials ever. Not even Empyrean after the lv95 trials. I can see that regret with the fairly minor lv99 trial of x60 items. This was understood some time ago when, for example, relic weapon trails to start were seriously dialed the hell back from what they were originally. So, what up? Did you forget those trials? 2,000 kills? What's changed since then?

Ah well, I hope the JP are fussing a storm because I know this deal is in their hands.

[Insaniac]

^
Screw ADL. Screw PW. They should never be involved in this trial.

18 man content means people who don't get it done in the first wave will NEVER get it done. This is a monumental failure in the "understanding how your game works" department. It really is like they don't have a single person in the office that plays the game.

[FrankReynolds]

Ah well, I hope the JP are fussing a storm because I know this deal is in their hands.

When I looked this morning, there was a lot of !!! and deleted posts. Google translate made a big jumble of the words, but several people are calling out ito / tanaka etc. and telling them to go do the trials themselves every day after work, and then come back and tell people that they are reasonable trials.

They basically say the same things as here: the time investment is unbelievable, SE is out of touch with the fact that the players all have jobs / kids now, the gil investment is retarded, it will take years to complete, sharing the same item for both quests is retarded.... all the same stuff, only with lots of angry squiggles and a lot more likes on their posts.

[Babekeke]

This could be fixed by adding the drops to more mobs. Make umbral marrow 100% from ADL with a chance for a 2nd, and a lower chance (~25%) for all other popped NMs in dynamis to drop it. Same with Mulcibar's Scoria, with a chance for the T4s to drop it.

[SpankWustler]

This isn't really here or there, but it just occurred to me that "Mulcibar's Scoria" sounds like some horrible disease that makes people poop out their pancreases. If a new disease appears in the first poor soul to attempt the afterglow trial, maybe it can be named Mulcibar's Scoria?

Anyway, this made me wonder what the words actually mean. Scoria is a wierd-looking volcanic rock. The only English results that Google provided me for "Mulcibar" other than some FFXI-related stuff were snippets of erotic fan-fiction. Some of it was Harry Potterian in origin, and some based on something else less immediately recognizable.

I hope the development team finds this information useful!

[Kimble]

Do you have to do stage 1 first in order to do stage 2 or can you do stage 2 without having done stage 1?

[Juilan]

If I wasn't 95% certain I'd be banned for coming up with my idea to fix the trial systems for the higher level weapons and various other flaws in this game I'd share. The idea involves things that Stroudsburg's human rights court would lock the people up for the rest of their lives for, I'd share... and SE's dev team seems to have stimulated the thoughts by coming up with ideas I don't even think George Bush Jr. would be stupid enough to be swayed by.

Trial for 99 stage 1:
Relic : Get the title for ADL being killed by an alliance Member, Weapon doesn't need to be equipped.
Mythic : Kill PW 3 times with Weapon equipped.
Empyrean : Talk to moogle 10 times with weapon equipped, reward: 99 empyrean and 5 million gil (because you have loans to pay off)
stage 2:
Relic: Get 3 items from ADL
Mythic: Get 3 items from PW
Empyrean : Trade 15 items from a Jeuno T6

Even then it may not take a REASONABLE amount of time for people who aren't running a sweat shop for their character.

[Alerith]

This isn't really here or there, but it just occurred to me that "Mulcibar's Scoria" sounds like some horrible disease that makes people poop out their pancreases. If a new disease appears in the first poor soul to attempt the afterglow trial, maybe it can be named Mulcibar's Scoria?

Anyway, this made me wonder what the words actually mean. Scoria is a wierd-looking volcanic rock. The only English results that Google provided me for "Mulcibar" other than some FFXI-related stuff were snippets of erotic fan-fiction. Some of it was Harry Potterian in origin, and some based on something else less immediately recognizable.

I hope the development team finds this information useful!

Totally adding this disease to WebMD and Wikipedia. xD

[Maacha]

I was already barely playing anymore, but after hearing what they think is reasonable for the lvl 99 upgrades I am letting my accounts lapse. I didn't add Crysta this month, my mule account is already turned off and my other 2 accounts will be deactivated in a couple days when their billing comes due.

My husband and I made our relics (Mandau and Gjallarhorn) back in the days of 1 mil / 500k hourglasses and a full LS farming for a single weapon. We had a sponsor who would pay for runs and collect currency, members got points to use on lotting armor and freelot on synth items (some of which were actually still valuable). In 5+ years as an LS we made 4 weapons, it might have been more but several people who began sponsoring gave up part way. Our LS survived only weeks after the server merger (Ramuh -> Bahamut) and Dynamis change, luckily our last sponsor was able to finish his weapon only a few weeks before it all happened. Most of my old friends are now gone or have limited playtime and are no longer online when I am able to be online. I joined a new LS native to Bahamut, but it was very difficult for me to make it for their event times and I have been logging on less and less over the last few months. I've done VW 3? times, none of them gaining me any clears, gear, or atmacites. In the last 2+ months pretty much all I've done has been EXPing by myself, 3 boxing my chara, my husband's chara, and our mule account.

Knowing that the final trials will be impossible for me, even the stage 1 trials, has removed pretty much my last reason to keep playing this game. I'll keep reading fansites in case the devs change their minds, but chances are I won't be able to post on the official forums once my accounts go inactive. It just isn't worth my $60 a month for FFXI anymore.

Getting kills on ADL might be plausible, since relic holders could work together on the goals at the same time, but getting items from him means only 1 person will benefit from the work of a full alliance. I don't even know a full alliance worth of people anymore, let alone a full alliance that would help me with a pissy NM that would only drop a single item toward the upgrade of a single weapon...

[Dekusuta]

The real issue here is not just the time and effort, but the IOUs relic and mythic holders will have to place on the community.

I said this in LS, but SE seems to not be aware that the community has changed a lot, and is no longer the same community that they had in the game's heyday in 2004-2006 when a vast majority of players were younger. Those of us who have stuck with the game have grown up, and we can no longer devote 'hardcore' play time, which involves spending 48 hour weekend slots organizing alliances of 18 to fight some NM and farming. It's interesting that while most games reward tenure to MMO with special items accessible only to longtime players, SE seems hell bent of punishing their long time subscriber base. What's worse is this came off a period where they seemed to have understood the needs of the community, with abyssea being a fairly accessible field with good rewards. Maybe a little too easy, but it was the right way to deal with the aging community. The sudden shift in tone since last year was disconcerting.

Here's a compromise, make T1 for relics,mythics killshots w/ weapon equipped. They can do whatever they want with Tier2. 10,000 Tanakites or whatever. I won't be doing that trial.

[Helel]

I just don't understand why relics can't be "earn a crap ton of exp in x zone" or "kill Dynamis Lord 20 times" instead of this Arch Dynamis Lord non sense. Everyone's busy being dedicated to bargaining a compromise for ADL but I say screw that noise. Relic trials have a pattern up to level 95 involving Dynamis. Instead of doing the next logical trial of taking on the DL himself, they skip him for the Arch version. What the eff.

Did we learn NOTHING with augments and the playerbase? We WANT to work for our rewards. We WANT crap not handed to us on a silver platter. What we do NOT want is to never be able to achieve our frickin' goals. Make us do 200,000 exp in Xarc. Make us do 20 DLs. Make us do SOMETHING that is feasible with work. The days of little reward for our invested time is over. Accept it, or risk getting left behind by your customers for greener pastures. It really is that. damn. simple.

And I'm sorry for anyone who does not understand that and wants to applaud such content design decisions. But the fact is when a game reaches a certain point in it's life span, namely when the dev company cuts support for their flagship MMO to try to make a new MMO the new flagship MMO or customers beat you to the punch and start looking elsewhere for their dollars, you have to change your strategy up to maintain current customers. This is not maintaining customers. This is giving the middle finger to them. You might not intend for it to happen, but that's exactly what it is in our view.

We are an aging playerbase. We don't have what it takes anymore to be doing what we did years ago. We want to work for stuff. We just don't want it to be nigh impossible. There are already a select few who owns these weapons, relics, mythics AND Empyreans. Compared to the entire population yes it's a select few. We already paid our dues and then some. We really don't need to have level 99 trials on any ultimate weapons to be the most devastating trials ever. Not even Empyrean after the lv95 trials. I can see that regret with the fairly minor lv99 trial of x60 items. This was understood some time ago when, for example, relic weapon trails to start were seriously dialed the hell back from what they were originally. So, what up? Did you forget those trials? 2,000 kills? What's changed since then?

Ah well, I hope the JP are fussing a storm because I know this deal is in their hands.

I definitely agree with you here. Where is the logic behind: attestation mob kills (lol) > fragment kills (lol) > arch dynamis lord (uh... shit?). What the hell sort of transition is that. Regular DL was definitely the expected and logical route to go, but of course we're talking about SE here.

Regardless, the item for stage 1-2 (which should NOT be an item for stage 1) needs to be dropped by mobs other than ADL. Nobody fights ADL, and nobody is going to fight ADL 1000 times. You seriously have to make this item obtainable from other mobs or you've completely ruined these weapons.

[Karbuncle]

They clearly want us to do 1000 ADL so that when every Relic holder in the game gets the trial, it will put 1 more Sagasinger into the game.

[Unctgtg]

SE just give us 10000 WS kills as a second option instead of 20 Marrows. That would solve all our problems. Those that want to go the route of 20 marrows can, but let us have the option of either.

[Arkanethered]

Hey... Square.

You know why you are having to dumb down the level 99 cap fight for people?

It's because they missed the first wave of people doing it.

This will happen with relics if you do this.

Thanks.

[Atomic_Skull]

Seeing as how Atomic_Troll things Trashtar rapes Mandau, I'll lead to believe one of two things:
1-they dont have either weapon
2-they have a Trashtar and upset that its one of the few Emps that was never really more powerful than the relic counterpart (unless you're a dnc)

You can repeat that all you want but the fact remains I have been arguing for the past year that relics should be stronger than emps so your argument makes no sense.

Also you calling someone else a troll is highly ironic given your history on BG.

[Nynja]

And yet strangely you're still the anonymous one who thinks Trashtar is better than Mandau...k troll

[Obysuca]

(Not sure why it didn't post o.o Hit reply but anyways.) First, I do agree the amount needed is crazy.

And I'm sure I know where its going once I post this but, anyone else remember when Aby came out how people complained about stuff being too easy or things being handed to players without much effort, unlike back in the day when you had to work for stuff? Now that SE comes out with content you actually work for to get the reward, people still complain. I bet someone at SE is like "Wtf do you people want."

[Nynja]

Because you're making 17 other people work for a month just to upgrade your weapon with no benefit or reward to them...(for relics atleast)

[wish12oz]

I think in this instance it would be helpful if everyone in the community voiced their hatred for these trials. There's been how many pages now, and only 1? person liked them. And I'm just typing this to say its dumb as hell.

20 Arch DL kills would be ok, 2-3 Arch DL items would be ok.
10 PW kills would be ok, 2-3 PW items would be ok.
60 riftdross/cinder is to much also, this should really be 20-30, or you need to vastly increase the mobs this drops from, it's bad enough getting 1500 heavy metal plates, why are you trying to make these weapons cost 600mil each?


EDIT:

You can repeat that all you want but the fact remains I have been arguing for the past year that relics should be stronger than emps so your argument makes no sense.

Lots of relics are stronger then empyreans, and have been since day one, like dagger. Now quit trolling.

[Nynja]

Imagine this in a video game when you start:
"We are going to make sure you're ready for your adventures by forcing you into a tutorial trial"
Press X to swing your weapon...good, good
Press Y to use an item...good, good, you're getting the hang of this quickly
Press the directional pad to move around, press it lightly to walk, and press it all the way to run...very good!

You seem ready for battle, to make sure you're ready, defeat this lv10 mob on your lv1 character, this is mandatory.


thats pretty much whats going on here (teamup WS usage, teamup WS killshots, teamup Attestation NM 5x, teamup Animated Weapon 10x...turn in 20 ADL drops, what the fk)

[cidbahamut]

I think in this instance it would be helpful if everyone in the community voiced their hatred for these trials.

Agreed. As someone with absolutely no vested interest in these trials, they still offend me greatly. They offend me because they are a clear illustration of how out of touch the development team is, and that disconnect carries over into the rest of the game.

These trials are a symptom of something that will adversely affect the entire playerbase.

[Lynchilles]

This just goes to show you how much the FFXI dev team has lost touch with the playerbase.

[Insaniac]

20 Arch DL kills would be ok, 2-3 Arch DL items would be ok.
10 PW kills would be ok, 2-3 PW items would be ok.
60 riftdross/cinder is to much also, this should really be 20-30, or you need to vastly increase the mobs this drops from, it's bad enough getting 1500 heavy metal plates, why are you trying to make these weapons cost 600mil each?

Relic and mythic trials are both terrible as long as they involve ADL and PW. In fact 20 kills would very quickly be just as bad or worse than 5-10 items. "Kills" means that 2 months down the road when everyone has their 99 relic anyone who missed the train is SoL. A Linkshell may be willing to set up runs to clear 10-12 people at a time but one guy who needs 20 kills is just as fucked as one person who need 20 items. At that point it's essentially the same trial.

[Rampage]

Making these just be kills would be fine. In an MMO you want to make your players feel like working toghether is good for everyone. This is why VNM trials are easier / fun to do with pick up groups. Imagine if everyone had to get 8 chesma(insert any other vnm) drops instead of kills. Instead of fostering companionship and working in groups you would have small groups camping the heck out of them and you either go camp with a group yourself or get frustrated and give up.

SE had the right idea making them kills before, i dont know why we are reverting, to "get 1% chance to get something you need 1 million of" method.

Further down the line kills and "get x item" is NOT the same. You can always find someone who is either doing a second weapon or missed the train just like you. The difference is that if its kills, People will band toghether for shout groups since it will be of benefit to everyone, if its item drop, no one is going to do shouts groups with people they dont know / might steal the item / might not get around to my turn.

[FrankReynolds]

Making these just be kills would be fine. In an MMO you want to make your players feel like working toghether is good for everyone. This is why VNM trials are easier / fun to do with pick up groups. Imagine if everyone had to get 8 chesma(insert any other vnm) drops instead of kills. Instead of fostering companionship and working in groups you would have small groups camping the heck out of them and you either go camp with a group yourself or get frustrated and give up.

SE had the right idea making them kills before, i dont know why we are reverting, to "get 1% chance to get something you need 1 million of" method.

Further down the line kills and "get x item" is NOT the same. You can always find someone who is either doing a second weapon or missed the train just like you. The difference is that if its kills, People will band toghether for shout groups since it will be of benefit to everyone, if its item drop, no one is going to do shouts groups with people they dont know / might steal the item / might not get around to my turn.

I dunno, I see people shouting for light staff trials all the time (Damn near every mage needs one of these eventually) and I rarely see a group of more than 6 people. Trying to find 18 people who have completed the 1500 metal plate stage is going to be considerably harder.

[Insaniac]

Making these just be kills would be fine. In an MMO you want to make your players feel like working toghether is good for everyone. This is why VNM trials are easier / fun to do with pick up groups. Imagine if everyone had to get 8 chesma(insert any other vnm) drops instead of kills. Instead of fostering companionship and working in groups you would have small groups camping the heck out of them and you either go camp with a group yourself or get frustrated and give up.

SE had the right idea making them kills before, i dont know why we are reverting, to "get 1% chance to get something you need 1 million of" method.

Further down the line kills and "get x item" is NOT the same. You can always find someone who is either doing a second weapon or missed the train just like you. The difference is that if its kills, People will band toghether for shout groups since it will be of benefit to everyone, if its item drop, no one is going to do shouts groups with people they dont know / might steal the item / might not get around to my turn.



The problem is you need a specific set-up to kill ADL. Shout for people who recently finished relics and you are going to get 3 BSTs 4 PLDs 2 THFs and 3 DRKs. Good luck getting the WHMs SMNs and CORs.

Edit: You know this is probably why SE thought that item trials would be a good idea. It frees people to go on whatever job they want so that finishing a 99 guttler or claustrum(lol) doesn't become impossible. I don't know how they couldn't have come up with a better way though. This just seems so incredibly lazy. They could have added a random drop item to normal dynamis mobs that you get around 20 of per run and need 500 of. There are so many better options. Timed dynamis NM kills or just a simple 1000 currency.

[Creelo]

Relic and mythic trials are both terrible as long as they involve ADL and PW. In fact 20 kills would very quickly be just as bad or worse than 5-10 items. "Kills" means that 2 months down the road when everyone has their 99 relic anyone who missed the train is SoL. A Linkshell may be willing to set up runs to clear 10-12 people at a time but one guy who needs 20 kills is just as fucked as one person who need 20 items. At that point it's essentially the same trial.

I definitely will have to agree with this. I do think kills would be better than items (20 Kills compared to 20 Umbral Marrows), but I just don't know how this would play out in the future... Unless each server has that one crazy person that is constantly going to be killing ADL on a regular basis (and would let you team up with them for the kills), you probably are going to be SOL after the first wave of relics finish getting to 99. Who knows if that crazy player would be killing ADL near your time zone either.

And then there are the problems of setting up a run for ADL that you also mentioned, which is fairly job specific, so people with relics may not even be able to attend the right job for ADL.

I do like the idea of relic holders banding together to finish their last trials, instead of knifing each other in the back to try to get their own Umbral Marrow, but man... >.<

[wish12oz]

Relic and mythic trials are both terrible as long as they involve ADL and PW. In fact 20 kills would very quickly be just as bad or worse than 5-10 items. "Kills" means that 2 months down the road when everyone has their 99 relic anyone who missed the train is SoL.

I disagree with this simply because relics are so easy to make, and people with them tend to have multiples. It would be a very long time before you couldn't find enough people to help with this IMO.

[Insaniac]

I disagree with this simply because relics are so easy to make, and people with them tend to have multiples. It would be a very long time before you couldn't find enough people to help with this IMO.This still doesn't change the fact that you will need a lot of non relic members in these groups. WHMs CORs BRDs and at least 3 SMNs. All pretty unlikely to have a relic that needs upgrading. You also wont be able to go in with more than 1-2 leech DDs like BSTs and THFs. Kill trials on a demanding fight don't work.

[Nynja]

Trying to find 18 people who have completed the 1500 metal plate stage is going to be considerably harder.

Emp stage requires rift*** items, which drop from alima/rex...mob routinely farmed, therefor these items will naturally be created

[Arcon]

People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

[Nynja]

People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

As has been pointed out...you can pop only 1 ADL per run, and with the random nature of the fight, you will have a 75% killrate. It will take a month to clear out one persons relic.

What happens when u have 12 relics in your ls? Spend a year upgading everyones relic to 99? Remember this is dynamis time lost where ppl may be trying to upgrade their own relics, farm currency for gil, farm AF to upgrade...etc

[Syao]

The problem for my shell is that everyone has a relic or two, who decides who gets what first, I see no fair way to do it without potential to screw a lot of people over. I'm not selfish enough to make other people get me 20 ADL items when I can't guarantee I will be able to do ADL for a year or more.

[Anewie]

People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

this^ my ls is decent and has a decent rooster.

Sure, my opinion is pretty outlandish, but there are plenty of people who ant archaon and sagasinger. People will complete this NO PROBLEM. Sure, ittle be annoying and take some time, but it's no way impossible for linkshells like mine. And my ls is nothing more than an average sized/skilled group.

[Anewie]

The problem for my shell is that everyone has a relic or two, who decides who gets what first, I see no fair way to do it without potential to screw a lot of people over. I'm not selfish enough to make other people get me 20 ADL items when I can't guarantee I will be able to do ADL for a year or more.


Um.. one person at a time? Sure, the leader will go first, but the leader obviously does the most work and shoiuld have priority. This is not selfish, it's common sense.

Someone doing more work and has more history, should go first. That's fair. Why have we lost this mindset?

Sure people can ABUSE it, but not everyone is a douche.

[Zumi]

People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

Most people do not have a huge linkshell filled with people that would be willing to undertake something like 20 ADL kills. Abyssea basically turned FFXI into a game where you do stuff with 2 or 3 people.

[Prothscar]

The playerbase turned FFXI into a game where you only do things with 2-3 people. These people are either too scared, too lazy, or too stupid to go back to doing things properly however, and now complain when content is released that actually requires other people to complete.

Relic 99 should by no means require 20 ADL kills, but there's nothing wrong with it requiring a group as long as it's within the realms of reason and doesn't end up costing that group millions of gil in the long term.

[Arcon]

As has been pointed out...you can pop only 1 ADL per run, and with the random nature of the fight, you will have a 75% killrate. It will take a month to clear out one persons relic.

What happens when u have 12 relics in your ls? Spend a year upgading everyones relic to 99? Remember this is dynamis time lost where ppl may be trying to upgrade their own relics, farm currency for gil, farm AF to upgrade...etc

I was talking about killshots right now, since that seems where this conversation was headed. I agree that it's ridiculous with the current trials. But I think if it was done with killshots, 20 would not be too much to ask.


Most people do not have a huge linkshell filled with people that would be willing to undertake something like 20 ADL kills. Abyssea basically turned FFXI into a game where you do stuff with 2 or 3 people.

I don't know about most people. And what Abyssea did can be undone, which is shown by the amount of people happy about Legion. People simply went to lowman groups because the game allowed it. If the game requires larger numbers again, that's what's gonna happen.

[Zumi]

For large scale events like VW you take those 2 or 3 friends and just shout in port jeuno to fill out the rest of the people. Now that won't work for ADL drops because only 1 person would be getting benefit. Which is why the 99 trials are not good.

[Raksha]

For large scale events like VW you take those 2 or 3 friends and just shout in port jeuno to fill out the rest of the people.

Or you go with your LS and don't have to worry about gimps.

Works both ways.

[Greatguardian]

Um.. one person at a time? Sure, the leader will go first, but the leader obviously does the most work and shoiuld have priority. This is not selfish, it's common sense.

Someone doing more work and has more history, should go first. That's fair. Why have we lost this mindset?

Sure people can ABUSE it, but not everyone is a douche.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/059/143/Ohwow.jpg

What kind of 5 year olds do you babysit where the leader actually has to do more than say "Okay, here's the monster. Kill it."?

[wish12oz]

This still doesn't change the fact that you will need a lot of non relic members in these groups. WHMs CORs BRDs and at least 3 SMNs. All pretty unlikely to have a relic that needs upgrading. You also wont be able to go in with more than 1-2 leech DDs like BSTs and THFs. Kill trials on a demanding fight don't work.

Why would you look for people to play the jobs your mule/mules does/do? Even if you don't have mules, and no one in your alliance of relic holders has mules, you act like it would be difficult to shout and get those people by offering them, and only them, lotting rights on all drops. Those items for the glowy trial would probably be worth a few mil still, and some of the drops from the other NMs aren't cheap either. Plus you can get 100's.

[Zumi]

Or you go with your LS and don't have to worry about gimps.

Works both ways.

I have to disagree. Got up to tier T6 jeuno all with pick up groups pretty much. Anyone who plays this still pretty much has abyssea gear since its so easy to get. These mobs aren't hard at all and take very little coordination. FFXI is just easy all around.

Like I said most people don't have some large linkshell to do stuff with because so many people quit the game and really only have a few people left. Which really only leads to shouting for people. Add that doesn't work if only 1 person is getting benefit since the get drops from ADL isn't something 18 people can team up on unlike VW.

[Insaniac]

Yes people will finish it. No a majority will not. It isn't impossible like stage2 but it's certainly not reasonable. Group effort is fine for group payout. Group effort for the benefit of 1 person is not.

This is a trial to finish a weapon that people already busted ass for. It's not a full weapon. It's 1 of 13 god damned stages of a weapon. A low-mannable trial that takes a few days to finish is absolutely fine. The work has already been put in. These trials are just to keep them at the top and should reflect that. Anything to do with 18 man content and 100s of man hours should have never even seen the light of day.

[Anewie]

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/059/143/Ohwow.jpg

What kind of 5 year olds do you babysit where the leader actually has to do more than say "Okay, here's the monster. Kill it."?

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

[Insaniac]

Why would you look for people to play the jobs your mule/mules does/do? Even if you don't have mules, and no one in your alliance of relic holders has mules, you act like it would be difficult to shout and get those people by offering them, and only them, lotting rights on all drops. Those items for the glowy trial would probably be worth a few mil still, and some of the drops from the other NMs aren't cheap either. Plus you can get 100's.Content that requires you to pay for more than one character and/or break the ToS is not reasonable

I'm not going to say you couldn't find some saps that don't realize they are screwing themselves accepting a 9 way split on 200 currency and a chance at useless gear instead of soloing dynamis on pretty much any job but I don't think those would be people you want to put your trust in for a fight like ADL. Try just doing regular dynamis farming with a a couple randoms and see how you feel about it.

[Lynchilles]

I can count on one hand the number of people that have helped me get a relic. Most of my relic was self-funded via crafting/farming etc. The rest that wasn't self-funded was due to contributions by a few friends (contributions in terms of time and effort, not gil or currency).

I run with a small group of friends because I've been burned by large linkshells where certain members have gotten a ton of gear, or finished a relic or an empyrean weapon and bolted. It seemed to happen in just about every large linkshell I've ever been in. Worst thing is, when my turn came around the linkshell is just so empty by people who thought the grass was greener (This happened more than once). I just won't do large points-based linkshells anymore because "fool me twice, shame on me."

However, I'm extremely fortunate that I picked the right group of people as friends and they picked me. We help each other out with just about everything.

Here is what I needed help with for completing my relic:

1.) Two friends to help with getting my Attestation
2.) Two friends to help with getting my Fragment
3.) One friend helped me with the Beacedine NM trial. I shouted for 2 other people to come along
4.) Three friends helped me with the Xarcabard NM trial.

We did farm currency together as well on different occasions. However, I only really farmed about one-third of Stage 4 and about one-third of the last stage once Dynamis was changed. When farming currency I made sure that it was beneficial to the one other person or two other people that came in and lent a hand. I'd plan runs around getting them gear they wanted or needed like Assassins Armlets or AF-1 pieces, etc.

The only other time I farmed, I joined in with two or three other people organizing runs where we'd split the currency evenly. Again, everyone walks away with something.

All in all, I've done most of the work myself with much-appreciated contributions by only a handful of close friends when I needed it the most. It took me over 3 years to finish my relic. I loathed every step, but I was motivated by the fact that I'd have one of the most powerful weapons available and that I earned it.

This trial nonsense just goes to show you SE has absolutely no idea what the game is like anymore. It's a slap in the face to those players who did a lot of the work themselves or in small groups with friends who were there to help them.

The trial should continue along the way most of the previous trials for relics were: tedious, but able to be accomplished by a small number of people. Something like 100,000 exp in each dynamis zone. Or let the Umbral Marrows be obtainable with currency from the Goblin NPC's. It should be something "REASONABLE" that a person can accomplish outside of depending upon 17 other people on a repeating basis.

[Greatguardian]

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

The type of shells I run and ran? I'd like to know what internet detective Anewie thinks she knows about my linkshells, lulz.

Running a shell is only hard work if you let it become hard work. If you straddle along a bunch of retards who need everything explained to them in detail before every single event, then you should just /breaklinkshell and get new peeps. See, when you have a shell pull of intelligent, capable players who know what's up, you don't need to tell them much of anything. Everyone's already on the same page. Maybe you should try being in a shell with intelligent people for a change, you might learn something.

What? You think managing drops is super hard? Dealing with everyone's baw baw problems got you down? Not my problem. If your members can't conduct themselves like adults, and you can't handle them, then you just aren't cut out for leadership.

Leading in every shell I've ever run has always been a volunteer matter. It's a bit of extra work for no extra pay and if that's a problem people are always free to stop being a sack. No harm, no foul. Shit's just not that hard, boo.

[Damane]

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

This purely depends on the Shell-Members you have.

Back on topic, even after 2 days this Trial still sucks hardcore in my eyes. /sigh I would like to have a DEV-Punching bag, but thats just me.

[Alerith]

As usual, you're delusional if you think that's all there is to leading a LS.

But considering what type of shell you run/ran, I can level with you and laugh.

Leading and organizing events in a successful active linkshell amongst larger groups is much more than "here u go guyz! KILL THIS!".

Running a shell is hard work, and no one who was a leader or officer in any decent shell will disagree. That stuff can be very annoying.

Whatever you think of my leadership ability is irrelevant, but I really have to disagree as well.

All a leader has to do to run and maintain a successful shell is keep an updated schedule, keep an updated points list (if your shell uses points) and keep track of attendance.

And all tasks a leader has can be delegated to officers.

"We meet at this time. We are going to this zone. We are going to kill this mob. This is how we pop it. This is how we're gonna kill it. You, you and you are here. Come on this, this and this job."

That isn't hard work. It's simple organization. It's also not grounds to command your entire shell to spend so much time getting your R/M/E finished first.

[Mahoro]

I think you guys are disagreeing over the definition of "hard work". In terms of leading a shell, I think there's a definite distinction between "intellectually hard work" and "annoying busywork". Obviously it isn't "intellectually hard work" to do the following:

(i) plan events ahead of time, update /lsmes,
(ii) revise plan after seeing who is online, and deal with QQ from people who wanted X event
(iii) assign jobs to people,
(iv) announce zone and coordinates for targets,
(v) put the ally together and deal with QQ if there is overflow on an 18-person fight,
(vi) decide what the overflow people will do
(vii) in the case of Neo-Dynamis, plan TE path and Tome NM path,
(viii) in the case of Abyssea, plan multiple targets in each zone because otherwise people will QQ that we brought 18 people to each NM,
(ix) in the case of zerg fights like AV or ADL, assign competent party leaders who know exactly who they will invite for BRD/SMN rotation and won't DC
(x) after each kill, manage drops via DKP spreadsheet
(xi) take attendance
(xii) after event, update DKP on website
(xiii) receive excess drops from events and liquidate them for LS payouts, making sure to tabulate gil for each sale so people don't accuse you of running away with LS bank funds like some fear-mongering people think who don't see need for LS bank in 2012
(xiv) deal with /tells from people on a variety of topics, including but not limited to "how much DKP do i have?", "what event are we doing next time?", "how many points is X item?", etc.

These are all things I will do as one of the leaders of my LS where my intelligence or the intelligence of my LS's members aren't actually factors (well, arguably the last item on the list might be!). They just need to get done. It's all the boring "behind the scenes" gruntwork. None of it is "intellectually hard" in the way Greatguardian meant it, but it isn't just "hai guyz go kill X". Sometimes people conflate these things together. I wouldn't call what a stevedore does "intellectually hard work", but it is certainly tiring busywork, and probably hard for that reason. So I agree with both Greatguardian AND Anewie on this one, assuming Anewie meant it was "hard busywork".

All that being said, the best LS's operate via fair DKP systems, and I would never want priority in ANY drops by virtue of the fact I help run mine. It's all voluntary for me, and I enjoy doing it.

[Greatguardian]

Whatever you think of my leadership ability is irrelevant, but I really have to disagree as well.

All a leader has to do to run and maintain a successful shell is keep an updated schedule, keep an updated points list (if your shell uses points) and keep track of attendance.

And all tasks a leader has can be delegated to officers.

"We meet at this time. We are going to this zone. We are going to kill this mob. This is how we pop it. This is how we're gonna kill it. You, you and you are here. Come on this, this and this job."

That isn't hard work. It's simple organization. It's also not grounds to command your entire shell to spend so much time getting your R/M/E finished first.

This guy knows what's up. White Roses are boss tier.

[wish12oz]

Content that requires you to pay for more than one character and/or break the ToS is not reasonable

ZOMG GUIZ, having more then 1 account is against the TOS! You dirty hackers are all going to jail for owning 2 computers and playing 2 accounts at the same time, or partitioning your hard drive, and installing FFXI on both and running 2 from the same PC, or having a 360 and PC and playing on both.... or a PS2... or whatever else.....


I'm not going to say you couldn't find some saps that don't realize they are screwing themselves accepting a 9 way split on 200 currency and a chance at useless gear instead of soloing dynamis on pretty much any job but I don't think those would be people you want to put your trust in for a fight like ADL. Try just doing regular dynamis farming with a a couple randoms and see how you feel about it.

9 way split on currency? Freelot it and call it day. Besides that, most people don't even do dynamis, if you organize something and tell people they might get one of a few different items worth a mil or more, I doubt you'd have much trouble finding people for said event. It's not even like killing ADL wouldn't be fun a few times, there's people who would go just to do that. Or you could offer to pay them 500k or something, that works if you aren't poor. Plus there's this amazing thing called friends. You could try asking them if they want to help you out a few times when you can't find people who actually want to go.

[Insaniac]

"and/or" means that I consider them 2 different things. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You are failing to look at the big picture. First few months? No problem. 6 months later? A year later? You are f*cked. Everyone else is done and has killed ADL 20-500 times and doesn't give a shit anymore. I'm not saying it will be 100% impossible but it's not reasonable.

[wish12oz]

"and/or" means that I consider them 2 different things. I thought that was pretty obvious.

You are failing to look at the big picture. First few months? No problem. 6 months later? A year later? You are f*cked. Everyone else is done and has killed ADL 20-500 times and doesn't give a shit anymore. I'm not saying it will be 100% impossible but it's not reasonable.

I see 20 or more new relics every month on my server, I guess none of those people will ever need ADL though!

[Insaniac]

I see 20 or more new relics every month on my server, I guess none of those people will ever need ADL though!



You said the same thing like 3 hours ago. They wont need it on their SMN or COR I promise you that. Like I said maybe 4 posts ago. Your alliance will consist of a bunch of PLDs THFs BSTs and DRKs. How many PLDs BSTs and THFs are you willing to take to your zerg?

[Anewie]

The type of shells I run and ran? I'd like to know what internet detective Anewie thinks she knows about my linkshells, lulz.

Running a shell is only hard work if you let it become hard work. If you straddle along a bunch of retards who need everything explained to them in detail before every single event, then you should just /breaklinkshell and get new peeps. See, when you have a shell pull of intelligent, capable players who know what's up, you don't need to tell them much of anything. Everyone's already on the same page. Maybe you should try being in a shell with intelligent people for a change, you might learn something.

What? You think managing drops is super hard? Dealing with everyone's baw baw problems got you down? Not my problem. If your members can't conduct themselves like adults, and you can't handle them, then you just aren't cut out for leadership.

Leading in every shell I've ever run has always been a volunteer matter. It's a bit of extra work for no extra pay and if that's a problem people are always free to stop being a sack. No harm, no foul. Shit's just not that hard, boo.

It's subjective. Running a shell is hard work to me and many others. You can disagree, that's cool. It's you opinion and I don't mean to be rude but honestly.. GIf you honestly think, running a larger scale, sccessful, active ls is so easy, then you should have no problem too be honest. But I already know you're frontin.

Running an abyssea group (or a linkshell as you would call it) doesn't in my opinion count as making and running a real linkshell. Sorry booboo. You don't know and probably could never had run a larger scale endgame LS.

If running a endgame ls was SO EASY I wonder why more didn't do it? Because counting attendance, points, scheduling, gathering and dealing with people takes PATIENCE and HARD WORK. And surprise, yes you have to explain strats sometimes! You lead an abyssea LS. LOL at that counting.

As for Aerith, as i said to GG, you're being delusional. THAT is work and requires patience and dedication. If it's so easy.. Why did so many starting their own endgame ls at 75 bomb? Because people dont have the time or patience to deal with running it.

Running a freakin abyssea LS does not really count... U dont need a LS for abyssea... Ugh.. Why is this so hard to understand that isn't really large scale ls content?

[abbazabba]

Relic and mythic trials are both terrible as long as they involve ADL and PW. In fact 20 kills would very quickly be just as bad or worse than 5-10 items. "Kills" means that 2 months down the road when everyone has their 99 relic anyone who missed the train is SoL. A Linkshell may be willing to set up runs to clear 10-12 people at a time but one guy who needs 20 kills is just as fucked as one person who need 20 items. At that point it's essentially the same trial.

I disagree. There will be people working on marrow for their afterglow that they can go with. And they can farm their own pw set and give away the non mythic items. pw items still sell although infrequently. although the title and atma are more sought after

[Insaniac]

You really believe 6 months and 300 ADL shout groups later people will be excited to go on these runs? I just don't see filling out the ranks with people who aren't working on relics being a reasonable task. Another thing to think about is how exclusive even the first round of trials will be. When you have 300 true DDs trying to get the trial done what do you think the chances of a PLD getting into the alliance are? THFs BSTs RNGs NINs ect are gonna be SoL when people have the option of filling their party with WARs DRKs and MNKs. It's not the worst option ever but it really does have flaws that will screw certain people over. We should be asking for something completely different. Something that works for everyone all the time.

[Nynja]

I don't know about most people. And what Abyssea did can be undone, which is shown by the amount of people happy about Legion. People simply went to lowman groups because the game allowed it. If the game requires larger numbers again, that's what's gonna happen.

legion rewards all participants all the time

[Nynja]

We should be asking for something completely different. Something that works for everyone all the time.
as i suggested, all arch mobs drop item at a quantity based on difficulty.
The teamup can zerg adl and get more marrows, the lowman can grind city arch mobs.
Winwin


@damane
Do what i did...cancel subs. Money talks, and if SE thinks this trial is reasonable, ill keep my money instead. Plain and simple.

[Greatguardian]

It's subjective. Running a shell is hard work to me and many others. You can disagree, that's cool. It's you opinion and I don't mean to be rude but honestly.. GIf you honestly think, running a larger scale, sccessful, active ls is so easy, then you should have no problem too be honest. But I already know you're frontin.

Running an abyssea group (or a linkshell as you would call it) doesn't in my opinion count as making and running a real linkshell. Sorry booboo. You don't know and probably could never had run a larger scale endgame LS.

If running a endgame ls was SO EASY I wonder why more didn't do it? Because counting attendance, points, scheduling, gathering and dealing with people takes PATIENCE and HARD WORK. And surprise, yes you have to explain strats sometimes! You lead an abyssea LS. LOL at that counting.

As for Aerith, as i said to GG, you're being delusional. THAT is work and requires patience and dedication. If it's so easy.. Why did so many starting their own endgame ls at 75 bomb? Because people dont have the time or patience to deal with running it.

Running a freakin abyssea LS does not really count... U dont need a LS for abyssea... Ugh.. Why is this so hard to understand that isn't really large scale ls content?

Lulz. You're really grasping for straws. I've never lead a linkshell for Abyssea. In fact, it's probably the only thing I haven't lead a linkshell for. Why would anyone need a linkshell for Abyssea?

You sound like someone who's used to dealing with some godawful members. Attendance is hard? Points are hard? Herp derp I can count to potato and put a number in a spreadsheet. Scheduling? Gathering? God forbid, job selection? Open notepad, it takes 2 minutes. Hell, back at 75 I was perfectly capable of saying "Make some parties and don't be stupid", and people would do it without any other instruction.

Try recruiting mature adults instead of teenagers and "adults" with the mentality of a high school girl sometime and you'll find that it's a night and day difference. Of course, it takes a good leader to attract real talent. Most linkshells fail because 1) Most of the good talent already has a home, 2) Most of FFXI's playerbase is woefully immature, and 3) Most leaders just aren't that good at it.

My rules were simple. I don't care who's screwing who, who dislikes who, or what you do in your free time. Don't give me a headache and don't let your girl's locker room drama interfere with my events and you're golden. Respect in = Respect out.

[Alerith]

As for Aerith, as i said to GG, you're being delusional. THAT is work and requires patience and dedication. If it's so easy.. Why did so many starting their own endgame ls at 75 bomb? Because people dont have the time or patience to deal with running it.

You're trying to argue completely different points. Just because you don't have time or patience for something doesn't mean it's hard work.

Let's use Dynamis as an example and cut it down to the basics. First of all, if you don't have time or patience, you shouldn't be doing Dynamis anyways.

Now, what must the leader do in an old school Dynamis shell? Let's assume he isn't being a good leader and delegating some tasks to his officers. Schedule, Points, Hourglass, Bank, Drop-list, Website, Attendance, deal with /tells and such.

This is all busy work. There is no required skill to manage any of this. And if he IS being a good leader, he'll have three or four officers managing some of those tasks so that it ISN'T so time consuming.

Busy work =/= Hard work

And the fundamentally, running an old school dynamis shell and an abyssea shell are the exact same. The content may not require a full LS, but if you're taking one in to do things for multiple people...you know, the exact purpose of an event LS...then you need to deal with the exact same things as a dynamis shell. Attendance, bank, points, blah blah blah.

Pulling a "lol abyssea doesn't count" argument is completely childish.

[SpankWustler]

This discussion is making me miss being in a large linkshell.

Particularly, it makes me miss nonchalantly attaching the most awesome Not-Safe-for-Work image that Google could provide me to every PM I ever sent. The leader who took bids for some items through PMs was admirably stoic throughout two forests worth of bears and a rest-home worth of elderly men who like other elderly men very much, but one choice photograph of Japanese nose bondage in action forced him to speak out.

"Bubble won some item that Bubble can't remember three years later, and also...You're banned from sending me images, Bubble. Send other people all the images you want, though."

The moral of this story is that caring only about efficiency and not getting involved when people do deranged stuff socially tends to reduce a leader's stress level many times over. Also, pictures of noses in bondage are creepier than pictures of naked old people.

Particularly that last bit. I do not recommend using Google Image Search to pursue the topic.

[Rampage]

The problem is you need a specific set-up to kill ADL. Shout for people who recently finished relics and you are going to get 3 BSTs 4 PLDs 2 THFs and 3 DRKs. Good luck getting the WHMs SMNs and CORs.

Edit: You know this is probably why SE thought that item trials would be a good idea. It frees people to go on whatever job they want so that finishing a 99 guttler or claustrum(lol) doesn't become impossible. I don't know how they couldn't have come up with a better way though. This just seems so incredibly lazy. They could have added a random drop item to normal dynamis mobs that you get around 20 of per run and need 500 of. There are so many better options. Timed dynamis NM kills or just a simple 1000 currency.

I see what you mean.
But hey lets think outside the box for a second. Gives us an ammo item that gets inscribed with the trial. The item is all jobs so youncan go whatever job you want for the fight. Get the kills on any job or combination of jobs and hand itin. Voila problem over.
It seems we could do it this way, and party setup would be no trouble at all.