Ok...let me level with you here SE...

[Kitkat]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

That is a pretty big pile of bull if you ask me. Making this change to Stage 1 does not in any way, shape, or form hurt the progression of the trial if anyone has already started on it since the items are still required for Stage 2 upgrades. Unless the Dev team meant to remake both trials, this is just about the lamest excuse I've heard back for not changing Stage 1 requirements.


Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

That is the problem, Camate. The fight requires an alliance worth of individuals to complete meaning, taking current drop rates in consideration, the time to complete 5 relics to stage 1 99 is rather extreme. ADL drops 1 of these currently....1. I acknowledge that you stated the trials are not set in stone on the number needed to complete, but either way this is very hit or miss due to the nature of the fight and what it takes to get to it in a time restricted area. Getting to PW is getting a boost to make it far easier to gain pop sets, VWNM has the fact it drops wanted items to keep players interested, but Neo-dynamis is already outdated on drops. Other than the 100 piece I don't know many that want/desire any drops of ADL. Same can be said for PW still, but at least it isn't restricted to a 2 hour window of farming per day...you can get zeni, do fights, get trophies all day long. ADL you get Rare/ex pop items that can't be bought/traded and have to trek through the whole zone just to have maybe a handful of popsets by the end of the run, and if lucky able to get 1 or 2 fights out of the way, or you get a full alliance all pop items one run, do the lesser nms the next run, and devote the next few runs to just ADL (works for a structured LS, not so much the everyday "appropriately equipped 99 player).

Now to the underlined+bold part. Huh?!?!?! There are two ways to interpret this as it is written. A.) You are saying the Dev team is trying to limit the number of people who complete to lvl 99 relics despite saying that the trial would be completable by average appropriately geared players, or B.) You didn't read over what you just wrote. What number is rising significantly? The number of stage 1 99 weapons, or are did you mix up something between "increasing item drop rate" and "make the trial kills instead" ending up with "increase the drop rate and make the trial kills" or do you mean "with more that completed the kill trials, there would still be players who could not complete this as the interest in doing so would dwindle." (I can still argue against the last assumption since the drops would still be needed for stage 2 unless obliterating the collection trials all together, which is not made clear by your response)

[Arkanethered]

Please tell me the JPs are still pissed and screaming "NO!"....

Items that drop from ADL only in any fashion is unacceptable.

Please let NQ DL drop 1 and ADL drop multiples... This is the only way I will accept these stupid fetch trials.

Oh and you better be adding multiple ???s for any of these. NB4 fighting over ???s in dynamis.

[Karbuncle]

Can you at least ask them if they can

Add the Drop to Shadow Lord (NQ) At a lower rate? (20%~?) - That would be far more reasonable. Or add it to Dynamis lord at 100% but allow Arch Dynamis Lord to drop a "Pouch" instead, giving 5-15 Of them (Allowing multple people to complete the trial with 1 Pop)

Does that sound reasonable?

I know all 3 of the people who already started farming it might be a little upset, But the other 5,997 Relic Holders will thank you.

[Insaniac]

They don't care how many Relics are in circulation, just as they don't care how many Emp 90's are in circulation. You're right. They don't care and that's why this trial is messed up. It's something a good dev team would consider. People doing this trial as a group of 18 are sentenced to 3 nights of ADL a week for over 7 months to get everyone their 99. Mythics can finish in a week or 2 of lowman NM killing followed by a couple hours of PW. Emps can just lowman dynamis and buy rift items. The only reasonable way for a single person complete the ADL trial is in a PUG group of 17 other people who don't need the item. These might be possible for a week or 2 but that will die out fast and it will be LS only content in which case to not be an assh*le you need to kill ADL 5 times for every relic in your shell which is a number that for most shells is growing by 1-2 per month. Screw it, I could write a 10 page report on the cause and effect of this trial but it wouldn't do a damn thing because you are right. They don't care.

[Creelo]

Why do they insist upon making ADL trial requirements greater than PW?

PW is a pushover now and can definitely be low-manned; this is not the case at all for ADL. I would say it's also much easier to get PW pops than ADL pops with the Zeni adjustment.

So why are more ADL items required than PW items, especially when there are sooo many more Relics than Mythics in circulation?

This is not balanced. SE needs to either...

1. Make ADL drop multiple Umbral Marrows (2-4 I feel would be a good, reasonable number)
2. Make other Bosses Arch and NQ drop Umbral Marrow.
3. Or adjust the stupid ADL fight itself so it's not a luck-based shitfest, at least making ADL's clones drop 1 Umbral Marrow so people don't farm a pop for nothing.

[Karbuncle]

Why do they insist upon making ADL trial requirements greater than PW?

PW is a pushover now and can definitely be low-manned; this is not the case at all for ADL. I would say it's also much easier to get PW pops than ADL pops with the Zeni adjustment.

So why are more ADL items required than PW items, especially when there are sooo many more Relics than Mythics in circulation?

This is not balanced. SE needs to either...

1. Make ADL drop multiple Umbral Marrows (2-4 I feel would be a good, reasonable number)
2. Make other Bosses Arch and NQ drop Umbral Marrow.
3. Or adjust the stupid ADL fight itself so it's not a luck-based shitfest, at least making ADL's clones drop 1 Umbral Marrow so people don't farm a pop for nothing.

Making His Clones drop Umbral Marrow is actually one of the better ideas. So even if you Chose the wrong Door, You still get a prize!

Adding Umbral Marrow to every "Arch" NM would be a great Idea too.

Q: Has anyone checked if anything other than ADL Drops the Marrow?

[Insaniac]

Can you at least ask them if they can

Add the Drop to Shadow Lord (NQ) At a lower rate? (20%~?) - That would be far more reasonable. Or add it to Dynamis lord at 100% but allow Arch Dynamis Lord to drop a "Pouch" instead, giving 5-15 Of them (Allowing multple people to complete the trial with 1 Pop)

Does that sound reasonable?

I know all 3 of the people who already started farming it might be a little upset, But the other 5,997 Relic Holders will thank you.
The problem we run into now is that they want finishing a single mythic to be easier than finishing a single relic. If you could finish multiple relics in a single run that wouldn't be the case. The only way to get them balanced the way they want without creating a gigantic terrible bottleneck for marrows, due to the much larger number of relics in circulation, is to let relics work on their trial in smaller groups but to balance that they would need to up the time sink to re-balance the difficulty with mythics. So I agree with your 20% DL drop rate but ADL couldn't drop more than 2 items.


Q: Has anyone checked if anything other than ADL Drops the Marrow?People have killed Arch Diabolos on the real servers and not gotten marrow but who knows if they added them to anything else on the tset server. If they did I would hope they would tell us so we could all stfu.

[Karbuncle]

Mmmm, Maybe. How about 3~5 >_>? Chance of finishing 1 Trial per kill. You still need to finish the other 17 peoples.

PW Would need no adjustment considering he's weak level 75 Content any pick up group could likely take out at 99 with some preparation...

[Zhronne]

item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.
This is what I've been saying on forums for the past month.
And it's exactely the one and only reason why SE will NEVER change the trial.
Makes no sense to me, but alas it's what's gonna happen.
I really don't see why they have to be so adamant on their stance.
Would it be so hard to change it just for stage1? People who already started collecting would then be able to sell their items to people going for Stage2.
I mean, it's not like the items are "EX" and cannot be traded.

This also reminds me that it makes no sense at all to have the SAME item required for stage1 and stage2.
Not only people will be forced to compete with hundreds of other players going for stage1 creating an incredibly bad scenario for the upgrade items market, but they will also have to compete with people going for stage2!


in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.
I'd much rather have to do even 60 or more days of dynamis to upgrade a relic but WORKING TOGETHER rather than to collect 20 items but having to compete with others.

I mean what's the point of all of this? What's the idea, the approach, the goal developers have in mind?
Do they really think it's better for players to constantly fighting each other instead of working together?
Do they really think it's gonna be good for 17 people to do a fight for another single player?

Let's try to imagine I'm a player trying to upgrade a relic, how will I convince 17 other people to help me when they get ABSOLUTELY NOTHING out of it? It's not gonna be a single fight, I'm gonna have to convince them to help me for 20 fights, each of these fights will probably require me 1-2hrs since it's not that fast to gather the pop items for Arch Dynamis Lord.

Now let's try to imagine I'm not doing a relic. Why should I help a friends for a 2hrs event, 20 times, to make him upgrade his item when I get nothing out of it? Ok he's a friend, I won't mind helping him a few times, but how about twenty? How about I have multiple friends doing relics?

Did developers ever thought about the consequence? The amount of time/kills required? The fact that you can only enter dynamis once a day and, realistically, do only one fight per run? The fact that the zone could potentially be overcamped with other alliances trying to fight Dynamis lord since there is only 1 Dynamis - Xarcabard and 1 ??? to pop him?
Did they ever realize how many relics there are out in the markets and how many players are going to be pissed?
Why the complete lack of synergy?
So many players talked about how easier it would have been to have "kills trials" for stage1 and items for stage2, that way stage1 and stage2 players wouldn't have to compete against each other but would be able to WORK TOGETHER, you know the meaning of that? Working together? Should be one of the most important aspect in a MMORPG. People are supposed to be playing each other, this is not a deathmatch in an FPS online.
If players of all ages and all regions can easily understand this, how come developers can't understand it? It's supposed to be their job, their profession! They get paid for it!

If this is not a carrot on a stick, I don't know what is then.
I'd much rather have them create better activities to keep us playing this game and paying the monthly fees, instead that retarded and disappointing tricks like these.

[Insaniac]

It's 5 times now. Lower but still stupid.

[Cream_Soda]

Lol, I always kinda felt it was something like that. For most people, VII was the greatest game ever made, so any game that isnt VII, is going to suck for them.
I like the true VII over the VII we have (Xenogears was originally intended to be ff7, but was "too dark" for a ff game, so was just continued as a standalone game)

[Runespider]

Can you at least ask them if they can

Add the Drop to Shadow Lord (NQ) At a lower rate? (20%~?) - That would be far more reasonable. Or add it to Dynamis lord at 100% but allow Arch Dynamis Lord to drop a "Pouch" instead, giving 5-15 Of them (Allowing multple people to complete the trial with 1 Pop)

Does that sound reasonable?

I know all 3 of the people who already started farming it might be a little upset, But the other 5,997 Relic Holders will thank you.

They don't want to make it easier, in any way at all. Camate's repsonse from them said it all. They will listen and then totally ignore our feedback adn implement as intended. It really is like some sadistic guy in charge is punishing us all for being loyal players.


It's 5 times now. Lower but still stupid.

If they are dead set on this it should be 1, even then you have to compete with 17 others on that 1 item drop.

[Creelo]

Honestly, I feel like them adding the Umbral Marrow, etc. into circulation before the trials were actually released was just a trap for the playerbase and a pathetic justification for them to not change the true trials.

[Insaniac]

If they are dead set on this it should be 1, even then you have to compete with 17 others on that 1 item drop.They are looking at the trial on an individual basis and completely ignoring the bottleneck they are creating. I mean really they kind of have to build trial around the difficulty for one person. From that perspective 1 item is way way way too easy and really they would be justified in thinking that if they are trying to make relics harder than mythics but easier than emps. But the bottleneck has to be considered. The relic trial is not a simple fix. They can't just raise or lower the requirements they need to change the way the items are obtained.

[Arcon]

Personally I don't think 5 is a bad choice for relics. Sure, some linkshells may need to work a year on it to get it for every one of their relics, but if they have people with four relics in it, I don't think that's too much to ask either. If someone can farm Dynamis every day for months on end to obtain a relic weapon in the first place, then repeat this again for three more relics, this hardly seems like an unsurmountable challenge, neither in effort nor duration. Only the focus will shift from solo efforts to linkshell efforts.

And don't even start with "nothing but Dynamis for a year", this is a 2h event. Even the most casual of players will be able to find a LS they can join regularly for this. These are, after all, the best three weapon classes in the game we're talking about, and considering that, I don't think a year's casual effort is too much to ask to get an entire linkshell upgraded on several weapons per player. Not to mention that this is still a gross exaggeration for the vast majority of linkshells in the game and most will likely be completely finished after a few months. As such I really can't find a reason to complain about 5 items per upgrade.

[Nynja]

こんにちは。

先週の投稿でお約束していた、調整後の強化に必要なアイテムの予定数量をお知らせします。

アイテムの必要数について
試練の難易度に見合うように調整を行った結果、それぞれの武器群における一段階目の必要数は以下の値で考えています。

レリックウェポン：5個
ミシックウェポン：3個
エンピリアンウェポン：60個

※二段階目については、引き続き慎重な検討を行っており、具体的な内容がお伝えできるようになり次第改めてお知らせします。

Way to go SE, lower the trial that you already adjusted via 10x zeni points, and leave the broken trial broken. Now one person, presuming they have jettons stored up, can have all the zeni farmed up in 20 game days, and complete all the legwork on their own, and rally troops for PW...but this trial gets lowered to 3 PW items. Emps trial was always fine.

And yet the relic trial is still fn dumb as a rock, but hey, atleast now instead of 18 people wasting 1 month for one persons relic, its just one week of raping everyone of their potential dynamis time. Except as of the 2011 vanadiel census, there were 2965 lv90 relics, and 336 lv90 mythics. I'm pretty sure that number of relics has atleast doubled with the changes to dynamis, whereas alexandrite still fall from the sky like snow in africa. So even if a group of 18 people all have one relic each, thats still 18 weeks to upgrade everyones relic to 99, a number unrivaled (in a bad way) compared to mythic/emp trials.

Someone 2boxing can literally do all the legwork for PW, and then rally the troops for 1 hour. They can farm up all the zeni, do all the NM's to get PW pops, hold 2 PW pops and leave a third on the NPC ready for pickup. So you're requiring the help of 17 people for a mere hour. The dynamis trial, the pop NM's for ADL (despite pchan's retarded claims) arent exactly 2boxable, meaning you will require additional help for them, and ADL is a luck based fight...but I'm repeating all these facts now. basically for relic trial you need the help of 17 others, for 7 days (unless you pick the right ADL every time), at 2 hours a day. Mythic trial: work at your own pace then require assistance of 17 manhours. Relic trial: assistance of 238 manhours. There is no balance in this at all.

You wanted the trial difficulty to be Mythics>relics>emps? Its STILL Mythics=Emps>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>relics. Just because relics require 5 items and emps require 60, it doesnt make the emp trial exponentially harder when the 60 items are going to possibly be generated multiple times per day by anyone on the server willing to fight rex/alima (content that CAN be farmed by anyone at any time of the day with the only requirement being having someone with the relevant KI and having voidstones at your disposal)


In short:
You have fixed NOTHING

[Creelo]

And don't even start with "nothing but Dynamis for a year", this is a 2h event. Even the most casual of players will be able to find a LS they can join regularly for this.

A large majority of people don't want to do Dynamis everyday for a year. Simply doing Dynamis everday a week is already like 15 Hours/week. 14 Hours of Dynar + 1 Hour of Gathering Together/Random time wastes.

Personally, I don't want to have to take on a Part-time job to have to complete all of the relics in my LS; I want to complete all the relics in the shell, but not this way... :/

And so what if people did solo Dynamis entirely to get their Relic? They are still entitled to get the 99 Stage 1 version, but because these people probably lack a linkshell that could take on ADL, they are essentially screwed from finishing their weapon right from the start. Buying the five Umbral Marrows is no justification for an alternative either; that's just stupid.

[Unctgtg]

SE switch your trials, to 1 each or make them drop off regular DL like the relics should be. You really are risking losing your player base.

[Karbuncle]

If anyones curious, I think the JP Are almost as PO'd as we are.

I'm pretty sure i saw the words "Half Baked" used.

[Kitkat]

Honestly, I feel like them adding the Umbral Marrow, etc. into circulation before the trials were actually released was just a trap for the playerbase and a pathetic justification for them to not change the true trials.

Even if that is true, it doesn't justify the stage 1 since that is what most are talking about. Just to get stage 1 done, people will still have to fight ADL and the item that drops is still used for stage 2. In all honesty this doesn't hinder stage 2 (rather opposite for those who want to do it) since people would just need kills instead of items then items again from the same damn mob.

[Arcon]

A large majority of people don't want to do Dynamis everyday for a year.

And almost no one will have to. As I said, most linkshells will easily finish within a few months (that's most linkshells that even own relics, many linkshells still have none, but this isn't about them). And they don't even have to, that's only if they want to get all their weapons upgraded to the top right away. And again, this is the final weapon (not counting glowing one, but that's another issue altogether, as it will never be obtained at all at the current rate). Unless they introduce yet another form of ultimate weapon in the new content, they will have the maxed out weapon in a few months of very casual effort (to most people who own relics, 2h a day is hardly effort at all). This is clearly targeted at the players who were willing to invest in a relic in the first place, which are usually people who don't mind investing a lot of time in upgrades for their gear.

I agree it's not perfect, but I honestly doubt we're gonna get much better than this. At least this isn't unreasonable anymore.

[Soidisant]

And don't even start with "nothing but Dynamis for a year", this is a 2h event. Even the most casual of players will be able to find a LS they can join regularly for this.

I set off for work at 7am every morning and get home at 6-6:30pm. If you added 2 hours a day every day for a solid amount of time it would basically mean only playing FFXI purely to Dynamis. Heaven forbid if I had kids or my wife didn't play too. My LS atm has 15 Relics in with 2 more partially complete for the record.


5 does have the potential to be reasonable though. It's going to depend on a few things (congestion, ease of PUG'ing ADL, Umbral Marrow being added to another mob or dropping in multiples, Marrow being readily available in Bazaars, etc.). It's a reluctant wait and see for me.

[Gaspee]

Sadly, this situation is quite similar to the XIV Beta/Forums. Everyone was in unilateral disagreement with the course of the test, but it was like shouting into a vacuum - and the game was released anyway.

[BotosiAsura]

I think the bare minimum SE could do, if they do not plan on drastically changing the Relic trials, would be to increase the number of EP/DC mobs in Dynamis - Xarcabard and also increasing the drop rate of currency in only Dynamis - Xarcabard. This would allow a group of 18 going to kill ADL for relic trials to split up, allowing some of the alliance to farm currency to split amongst the alliance (maybe - the person getting the marrow that day?), while the other part of the alliance builds up an ADL pop to kill at the end of the run.

I think one of the main worries, especially one of mine, would be to join a linkshell to do these runs, get the leader their marrow in 20~days, get someone else their marrow another 20~ days, then someone else, then the LS breaks before they get their own 99 Relic, and wasted all that time on a V-I-D-E-O-G-A-M-E for zero output, and also wasted 80 days of Dynamis for a pretty crappy currency output (as it is now).

Increasing the currency drop rate in Xarcabard and increasing the number EP/DC mobs would also make more people do these trials (because I doubt anybody is going to if it doesnt change much) and would also spread out the number of people in each Dynamis zone, freeing up heavily congested Dynamis zones like Valkurm and Buburimu, which causes players to compete against eachother and work against eachother. It would bring B-A-L-A-N-C-E to the Dynamis zones, fixing the congestion, and would probably make the community a bit happier while still keeping the trials the same.

[Aldersyde]

In definite agreement with adding marrow to other Arch Dynamis mobs...if only for congestion or variety's sake. Do people even really kill the city and beau arch bosses with what they drop now?

[Geabrielle]

This is still going .....

[Arcon]

I set off for work at 7am every morning and get home at 6-6:30pm. If you added 2 hours a day every day for a solid amount of time it would basically mean only playing FFXI purely to Dynamis. Heaven forbid if I had kids or my wife didn't play too. My LS atm has 15 Relics in with 2 more partially complete for the record.

Yet, with your busy schedule, you have a relic? So unless you're stupidly rich, you've been doing Dynamis for what, four months, every day? Which is about the time you'll have to invest in it again. Only this time, you won't just complete your own relic, but also all other 14 relics in your LS (with some luck).

As I said, I just don't think it's unreasonable, compared to before.

[Tinuviel]

SE needs to realize that the difference between kill objectives and item objectives isnt about difficulty. Sure, kill objectives allows for 18 credits per kill and this drastically increases the rate of trial completion per ADL kill. However, difficulty is easily scaled by # kills. I personally believe that having to kill ADL 50 times is a better trial than having to collect 5 items. This type of change promotes people to work together and all enjoy a reward. If SE doesnt do this, they're forcing us to embark and an extremely frustrating trial. Design the challenge not the difficulty.

As far as how people have already started farming trial items... good god is that actually an argument SE? That's a pathetic argument and you know it. Just make the trial items bazaarable and I'm sure stage 2 relic people will happily buy them up at some point. Camate, can you please get a legitimate argument for keeping the item collecting format from the dev team??? I think when there is such an overwhelming response from the community, explanations from the dev team shouldnt be so easily shot down.

Thanks!

[Brolic]

Yet, with your busy schedule, you have a relic? So unless you're stupidly rich, you've been doing Dynamis for what, four months, every day? Which is about the time you'll have to invest in it again. Only this time, you won't just complete your own relic, but also all other 14 relics in your LS (with some luck).

As I said, I just don't think it's unreasonable, compared to before.

his shell has been around for a while, it's the only credible eu shell on asura for the last 4? years. Jem's apoc is probably 2 years old now? was the 2nd on the server.. after mine;) (rip artaxerxes)

More so in those 4 years it wouldn't be such a huge leap to assume that people have gone from college students with loads of time on their hands to responsible working adults with not so much time.

[Gaspee]

More so in those 4 years it wouldn't be such a huge leap to assume that people have gone from college students with loads of time on their hands to responsible working adults with not so much time.

This is a variable that I don't see mentioned enough. You are absolutely right... the player base is much older than it was upon release and time is something not everyone can afford a lot of.

[Camate]

Greetings.

Some of you have already posted the information that was on the Japanese forums, but here it is again, officially.

Required number of items
As a result of adjustments to match the trial difficulty, the below are the current numbers that are planned for the stage 1 version of the weapon upgrades.

Relic Weapons: 5 items
Mythic Weapons: 3 items
Empyrean Weapons: 60 items


※As we are currently carefully looking into the number of items required for stage 2, we will let you know the specifics once the information is available.

[Lushipur]

they sounds good to me

edit: now dev team just need to adjust that 1500 metal plates...300-500 are fine

[Creelo]

The problem I have with this Relic trial is that it simply cannot be low-manned; it's completely inconsistent with how relics can be made now.

To get a relic, you don't need to have 18 people helping you. At most you'll probably need 1-2 other people to help you with Attestion/Fragment Trials. That's it.

How are future relic holders suppose to be able to get their Relics to 99 when everyone's said and done collecting their own Umbral Marrow?

Not to mention, could you imagine the drama that a trial like this could bring for shells that have 10+ Relics to upgrade?

"Who should get the Umbral Marrow?"

Personally, I would want to upgrade others' melee weapons over my own Gjallarhorn because they gain so much more at lvl 99, yet how am I to know that I would get the same help when it comes time for my own? Everyone knows how notorious it is for people to finish a Relic/Empy/Mythic and then just quit or take an "extended" break a week later lol

Pretty funny too, considering SE wanted to avoid drama through their horrid loot distribution system in VW.

This dev team is just not consistent. At all.

Ninja Edit: Ohohohoho, the dev team is consistent with one thing though: Disappointment.

[Zhronne]

This is a variable that I don't see mentioned enough. You are absolutely right... the player base is much older than it was upon release and time is something not everyone can afford a lot of.
Yes and also gaming standards changed.
What was supposed to be "standard" or acceptable 4 years ago cannot be considered acceptable now. The market evolves and so need to do MMORPGs.

Also it's a psychological matter. Using a metaphore: In this game you're used to walk 600 miles it won't seem a big deal to walk for another 800 miles, you're used to it and you probably don't even imagine that things could be better.
Then, to your big surprise, SE gives you a Ferrari to cover those 600 miles and many many more with much less effort.
You complain a bit at start, but after 1year and a half you kinda get used to that.
Then, all of a sudden, SE makes your Ferrari disappear and tells you to walk for 400 miles.
Those 400 miles are technically less than 600 you used to walk back in your days, but still after having tried a Ferrari they will feel like ten times as much.

They only have themselves to blame for the "Ferrari". They should have given us a Bicycle instead. They can't really expect to go back to the 600miles walking thing and have the player base being happy? Not saying you should keep your Ferrari either, but at least try for something in between instead of jumping from one extreme to another!


They also aren't considering "practical" issues. If you're "forced" to do Dynamis-Xarcabard to help your friends, you won't be able to do Dynamis for yourself.
And wanna talk about the congestion at ADL? Or at how "random" ADL can be?


Personally I don't think the number of Marrows required matters much, it's just a bad idea planned in a bad way. A display of how to design things in a MMO the bad way.
It could be 2 marrows (which would be much easier of course) just like 50 but it would STILL BE a retarded idea, period.
I still don't get what good is there in this idea of promoting individuality to the detriment of collectivity.
Why do they have in 2012 to STILL design things that requires people being "forced" to do things together that will benefit one and only one out of 18 people for an extensive amount of time?

I don't get how they don't even consider these and many other implications, it seems like we're dealing with people who:
1) don't play their games
2) have just started developing mmorpgs
instead of professionists supposed to have over 10 years of experience in the field.

[Lushipur]

5*18=90 kills are a bit too much, lets do 50 adl kills and i bet ppl will be less pissed off

[Zhronne]

The problem I have with this Relic trial is that it simply cannot be low-manned; it's completely inconsistent with how relics can be made now.
That's exactely the "Carrot on a stick" I was talking about.
The same "carrot on a stick" Camate was told to reassure us about.
The same "carrot on a stick" which wasn't supposed to be and that, just like most of us were afraid of, is happening.

You can solo a Relic, but then you need an alliance to get the last stage which was supposed to be "for everyone" because:


They don’t want to dangle a carrot in front of everyone saying, “you can make these weapons even more powerful!” and then make it so only small fraction of players achieve this.


It's completely unbalanced.
Tbh there would be a lot to say about Empyrean trial as well, but probably nobody cares anymore because lolempys etc.
The new WSs changed the in-game balance for the majority (all?) of empyrean weapons, the fact that we hardly play inside of abyssea anymore did the rest.
Atm Empyreans are looking to become inferior to their relic/mythic counterpart, but they're also looking harder to get to 99, considering the lv95 and lv99 cockblocks.
And we all know how players feel about doing something harder to get something weaker...
This doesn't sound very "balanced" to me. The 1500 plates was a cockblock big enough to stop people from further advancing into Empy trials, and it will be even harder in the future as people moves even more into newer content and Heavy Plates will become more and more and more and more rare.

[Zhronne]

Ninja Edit: Ohohohoho, the dev team is consistent with one thing though: Disappointment.
Right... can only think of disappointing things one after another since the patch after the level 95cap one came out.
How long has it been since then? An year? Almost... and one disappointment after another, with very very few welcome surprises.

[TMG]

5 items is still ridiculous for the first trial. And it's even more ridiculous that the second trial requires the same items. Taking the same trial and making us do it 1000+ more times isn't so much "increased difficulty" as it is "unnecessary and annoying" and it just shows laziness on the dev's part. They absolutely couldn't come up with ANYTHING better than this one trial? We, the players, have given a ton of ideas, but they're so stuck on this one trial and shoot everything their customers suggest down, why? We're the ones giving you a job in the first place, throw us a bone here.

I know I don't have a large linkshell that will give me 17 other people to go kill ADL 5 times just for me. I'm not going to shout for it either because nobody's going to come unless I get 17 other relic holders and promise them the right to free lot the marrow. No way in hell I'm trying to win lot against 17 other people because my luck just isn't that good and I'd never finish that way. A lot of people I know who have relics have more than one, and are going to need more than 5 of these... they're not going to go on the market anytime soon, if ever. So those of us who don't have linkshells are pretty much screwed. And I know that's a lot more people than just me. I find it highly unlikely that people can be forced to give up their personal daily dyna farming time to help farm ADL for the 10+ relics in their linkshell 50+ times. Stuff just gets redundant after so long and people will have "real life emergencies" when it comes time to go farm ADL just so they can log in later and farm by themselves.

As far as I'm concerned the devs are a bunch of lazy inconsiderate liars who just really don't care about the players at all. You told us it would be easy for most average players to get stage 1 99s. Go ahead and let us know after a month how many relics have been upgraded to 99 after you implement this trial. I'm pretty sure it won't be anywhere near even half of all the active relics across all servers.

5 is better than 20 but it's still unreasonable to me because I consider myself an "average" player and this trial feels far too out of reach for me, and that's not what we were promised. I'd have no problem buying 5 items, but I really doubt I'll ever find 5 of them for sale within the next year, and if I do, the price would probably be close to the cost of making another relic weapon, which is hard to justify for such a minor upgrade. Same exact reason I started a relic in the first place instead of buying up heavy metal plates for my Empy. There's going to need to be a way to increase the supply for those of us who can't/won't sucker 17 other people into helping us upgrade our weapons with no benefit to them if you aren't going to completely change this trial, or it's going to be impossible for a lot of people to finish. And you also have to accommodate for those crazy people with unlimited gil trying to do stage 2. Pitting the average against the psychotic for the same items is just... evil.

Still most likely going to cancel my accounts in a few months over this crap, but I'm going to see how this plays out first. May as well shut down these forums since you're not at all interested in what we think anyway SE.

[BigPapaBlueJay]

I vote for DL Stage 1 and ADL Stage 2. ADL from the get go feels like they're skipping a step.

[Cream_Soda]

LOL man I wasn't going to say anything earlier.

1000 to 20, ppl still whine.

20 to 5, people still crying?

http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg




I have an idea, SE should just make an NPC where you can trade your 95 relic and he'll give you the 99 version w/ afterglow in exchange

[Finuve]

yea at this point I gotta say 5 doesnt sound that bad for anyone with a relic

I just wish 1500 heavy metal plates didnt suck so bad...im more likely to go start and finish a relic now then to finish an empy


ALSO 60 riftdross/cinder still sucks badly

[Mahoro]

his shell has been around for a while, it's the only credible eu shell on asura for the last 4? years. Jem's apoc is probably 2 years old now? was the 2nd on the server.. after mine;) (rip artaxerxes)

More so in those 4 years it wouldn't be such a huge leap to assume that people have gone from college students with loads of time on their hands to responsible working adults with not so much time.

well, she already does Dyna in 2 hour chunks. I don't think they plan on increasing Dyna past 2 hrs, so it will fit into her work schedule. :)



Not to mention, could you imagine the drama that a trial like this could bring for shells that have 10+ Relics to upgrade?

"Who should get the Umbral Marrow?"

Personally, I would want to upgrade others' melee weapons over my own Gjallarhorn because they gain so much more at lvl 99, yet how am I to know that I would get the same help when it comes time for my own? Everyone knows how notorious it is for people to finish a Relic/Empy/Mythic and then just quit or take an "extended" break a week later lol



I think many large LS's have some form of DKP system for distributing Marrow. ^^

[Juilan]

I still like stage 1 is title on any job and stage 2 is 5 items... but since the dev team thinks people actually kill the thing...

I think this trial issue just killed the purpose of these boards btw, devs take note!

私はこの裁判の問題は単なる方法でこれらのボードの目的を殺したと考え、開発者は注意してください！

[Rezeak]

I have an idea, SE should just make an NPC where you can trade your 95 relic and he'll give you the 99 version w/ afterglow in exchange

while i'm guessing your joking but i feel they should of done this just as a Thank you to all those who invested so much time and money in the game.

w/ mythic they should give ya 5k alexandrite back as a form of saying sorry for being so harsh on you.

[Gukai]

Agreed on all things
The scope of the game has changed such that ADL is impractical to kill. Let's face it, the large HNM ls's of the past are gone, maybe 2% of them across all servers remain, and thats purely in respect to member size. The activity pattern isnt HNM-everyone-be-online-and-at-the-event anymore, so fetching a large amount of people at a specific event time is tough now. You need an alliance to beat ADL. Dynamis is done with 1-6 people now, even the NQ DL is done with 6. But you look at the popped NM's, most people stay away from them because they are still a pain in the butt with such lowman groups. To get the ADL pop items you need to kill those popped NMs, and the party setup is different than a farming setup, so people dont bother. Getting the ADL pop items just isnt happening in current game-play.

SE has gotten better in understanding the needs of players in respect to gear, but they are still clueless about how the game is played and how it has evolved (for better and worse). Remember AV and how it used to be unbeatable and it took years and constant pleading at conventions to get them to prove it was beatable? It just shows how reluctant they are to involved and immerse themselves in the actual game, so sit back in town with the rest of us and hear the shouts and participate in events. That last part is critical - participate in events, because thats how it's done now, join shout groups for VW or abby exp parties or nyzul/salvage, etc. Few groups are far and between and mostly exist as lingering friendships from past-great linkshells. Huge dyna LS's to beat ADL.... hahahahaha.

[Sparthos]

LOL man I wasn't going to say anything earlier.

1000 to 20, ppl still whine.

20 to 5, people still crying?

http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg




I have an idea, SE should just make an NPC where you can trade your 95 relic and he'll give you the 99 version w/ afterglow in exchange

Cream, cmon lets be serious here - this isn't unjustified whining.

No one does ADL and after the patch that makes this stuff live no one will still do ADL. What incentive does anyone have to help a relic-holder finish this trial that eats an entire Dynamis run up and allows for a single kill at ADL? ADL doesn't even drop a single 100pc at a 100% rate and his gear is situational at best.

So ADL'll in most cases only drop marrow which is laughable given the effort expended to accomplish this feat. SE says "most people will finish" a 99 then turns around and makes a trial that not only compels people to tier relics (Guttler isn't worth 5 ADLs gtfo BST) but also encourages people to do something for nothing.

In typical SE fashion they haven't even decided to sweeten the pot. Throw in some heavy metal pouches? Some shots at multiple hundred pieces? A shot at any of the glowing weapons? Something? This is just your typical raw grind backed with voodoo speak, half-truths and delusions of balance from SE.

Who the hell cares about stage2? The person that hammers out that trial will have mush for brains once they manage to finally finish. Good to know SE doesn't give a fuck about the 'word to the players' they tote around.

[Arkanethered]

This is still unacceptable..

[Cream_Soda]

Cream, cmon lets be serious here - this isn't unjustified whining.

No one does ADL and after the patch that makes this stuff live no one will still do ADL. What incentive does anyone have to help a relic-holder finish this trial that eats an entire Dynamis run up and allows for a single kill at ADL? ADL doesn't even drop a single 100pc at a 100% rate and his gear is situational at best.

So ADL'll in most cases only drop marrow which is laughable given the effort expended to accomplish this feat. SE says "most people will finish" a 99 then turns around and makes a trial that not only compels people to tier relics (Guttler isn't worth 5 ADLs gtfo BST) but also encourages people to do something for nothing.

In typical SE fashion they haven't even decided to sweeten the pot. Throw in some heavy metal pouches? Some shots at multiple hundred pieces? A shot at any of the glowing weapons? Something? This is just your typical raw grind backed with voodoo speak, half-truths and delusions of balance from SE.

Who the hell cares about stage2? The person that hammers out that trial will have mush for brains once they manage to finally finish. Good to know SE doesn't give a fuck about the 'word to the players' they tote around.

20, sure not unjustified.

5? They're not just gonna hand it to you.

And it's not just the complaining, it's the whole "omg if it's not easy to get the absolute best weapons in the game, I'm quitting" threats that make me lol

[Camiie]

LOL man I wasn't going to say anything earlier.

Yeah, it's usually best to go with your first instinct.


1000 to 20, ppl still whine.

20 to 5, people still crying?

I have an idea, SE should just make an NPC where you can trade your 95 relic and he'll give you the 99 version w/ afterglow in exchange

Oh, well that's original. Yes, if any level of difficulty is shaved off of anything it's akin to mailing people free relics, infinite gil, and/or a Primeval Brew dispenser on a 5 second cooldown. I've never heard anything like that before. No sir. We've certainly broken new ground here. I'm not sure what's more impressive, your cleverness or your Dragonball picture collection.

[Cream_Soda]

You totally misunderstood my post. Lol I wasn't saying or implying anything you just talked about and then you speak of my cleverness, ha.

[Rezeak]

5? They're not just gonna hand it to you.

And it's not just the complaining, it's the whole "omg if it's not easy to get the absolute best weapons in the game, I'm quitting" threats that make me lol

5 is still bad tho if i could upgrade my relic w/ 60 riftcinder/dross i'd rather do that cause at least i can kill the VW mobs 20 times a day and save gil to buy them.

Either way the difficult they wanted was Emp (hardest) > Relic > Mythic (easiest)

As it is atm it is Relic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mythic = Emp.

If we could exchange Riftcinder/dross for Umbral marrow (iono 10 for 1) just as a way of making it so relic will not be as hard as Emps.

Like they said they wanted most players to be able to obtain them which will never be the case while the drops are linked to Arch Dyna lord.

[Brolic]

20, sure not unjustified.

5? They're not just gonna hand it to you.


No one handed me a relic(well my shell did) but still no one did. it's not like they're putting hard on top of free. they're putting hard on what was at the time a multi-year commitment.

[Cream_Soda]

I'll sympathize with anyone who made a relic/mythic before all the adjustments, but after the you can dual box 300 coins a day era, not so much

[Sparthos]

20, sure not unjustified.

5? They're not just gonna hand it to you.

And it's not just the complaining, it's the whole "omg if it's not easy to get the absolute best weapons in the game, I'm quitting" threats that make me lol

It could be 2 and the point still stands that no one does ADL, ADL takes too many bodies to be practical and this trial will be the death of weapons people generally associate with inferiority like Axe, Polearm, Club or Staff.

I don't expect SE to hand people these weapons done with afterglows but really the disconnect between player and developer has reached Looney Tunes levels here.

A trial to simply kill every Arch Boss once would have been enough here to be challenging while still allowing the usual relicholders to band together and plow through the trials together. 10 days of no money runs to finish every relic you/your PUG has. This sounds fair and actually forces people to do content that has been dead-on-arrival since Neo Dynamis launched.

It's also pretty obvious ADL needs some adjustments as a roulette of win or lose is about as dumb as content can get. No matter how skilled you are, you're bound by a zerg timer? Yawn.

The JP are bitching as furiously as the NA because this is classic bait 'n switch. Make dynamis easy, encourage lowman relics, design trials up to 99 that require few people then BAM 99 needs a full alliance/linkshell + full Dynamis run for ONE person? lol.

[Chriscoffey]

Looks like my drg mythic is looking better by the day. I didn't realize looking at 30,000 alex. would be better than looking at 5 ADLs.

[Geabrielle]

Alright ... that's it.

I'm lending the Dev Team and dear Camate my www.crymeariver@whaambulance.mail because this is the largest session of crazy crying I've EVER seen on a forum. From 20 to 5, from 10 to 3 ... and dross/cinder is still 60. For the love of God, Allah, Altana .. whatever ... STOP CRYING!

This is a major concession in and of itself. For the FINAL tier of weapons (not including the Shiny Afterglow) the difficulty does and SHOULD fit what you're getting. Of the 56+ pages of whining, no its' NOT discussion, I've seen very little complaining about the 60 rift items - YES they can shout grouped, spammed, what have you but at the end of the day it's STILL 60 with a pittance of a drop rate and you'll have to pay for what you can't get.

If 5 items is still too much work, just stop threatening to quit go find the Cancellation page and make use of it. Because honestly, this is an MMO, it requires teamwork and compromises and YES competition. It's what drives a player to be the best and go after the best gear. Without that it's just being spoonfed like the WoW babies and the Abyssea babies that we've been plagued with since the start of that expansion.

BTW. THANK YOU, Camate and thank you Development Team for this concession as a future relic holder, future mythic holder and a veteran player. I have a challenge to look forward too while I wait on content. Cheers Mate!

I reiterate ... please send all flame and hatred to Idungivediddly@trollolol.mail

[Sparthos]

Spoken like a person who doesn't understand the logistics of building an ADL party if you don't have an LS or suckers to drag to Dynamis-Xarcabard to finish your weapon at no gain to assisting members.

[Camiie]

I guess I'm being self-serving, but I still think Empyrean is where they took the biggest leap in difficulty, and so far, the 1500 HMPs and 60 rifts requirements have remained the same throughout all this. I'm sure many, and especially the devs, consider these trials to be balanced against the relative ease of that which came before. I, of course, disagree with that.

Camate mentioned that the intention for the Stage 1 Relic trials was that they would be doable by someone who was able to complete the previous trial. It doesn't seem from my perspective that the same philosophy was used for the 95-99 Empyrean trials. I just wonder is there any chance at all that the devs will be looking into these trials?

[Geabrielle]

Spoken like a person who doesn't understand the logistics of building an ADL party if you don't have an LS or suckers to drag to Dynamis-Xarcabard to finish your weapon at no gain to assisting members.

Who needs logistics when I have friends??

No, honestly. It's no less difficult to build an ADL than it is for a voidwatch group if you can either make appeal to their sense of greed (which is sad) or their sense of camaraderie if they've never been mistreated by said greedy bastards. It's not any different than any other large-scale content we've dealt with as players over the long years of gameplay. So seriously?? What's all the crying for? The other obvious answer to this is just not do it and we know what kinda bomb that's going to produce.

[CordeliaAzalan]

I completely agree with Geabrielle on this. Really, how much easier are people crying for it to be? When did the player base become so pacified and devoid of ambition and teamwork that OMG5ITEMs was an impossible task? Any brain-dead monkey from the old HNM days (ya know, the days people actually had skill and knew their jobs and didn't just piggyback on an Abyssea party) can piece together an alliance for ADL or PW... or, I don't know... they could have FRIENDS to help them. Ya know, friends? That oh-so-foreign concept to all the greedy little people roaming the servers, alienating everyone they come across for their own personal gain. Oh my, it's so hard to comprehend... dear lord, this truly saddens me.

On the other side of it, I do have to extend my thanks to the Devs and the community reps for putting up with these silly NAs complaining and whining that stuff is "too hard" ... waaah.

Oh, and P.S.: I've read the thread... it's still just a bunch of crybabies whining.

[Lynchilles]

Alright ... that's it.

I'm lending the Dev Team and dear Camate my www.crymeariver@whaambulance.mail because this is the largest session of crazy crying I've EVER seen on a forum. From 20 to 5, from 10 to 3 ... and dross/cinder is still 60. For the love of God, Allah, Altana .. whatever ... STOP CRYING!

This is a major concession in and of itself. For the FINAL tier of weapons (not including the Shiny Afterglow) the difficulty does and SHOULD fit what you're getting. Of the 56+ pages of whining, no its' NOT discussion, I've seen very little complaining about the 60 rift items - YES they can shout grouped, spammed, what have you but at the end of the day it's STILL 60 with a pittance of a drop rate and you'll have to pay for what you can't get.

If 5 items is still too much work, just stop threatening to quit go find the Cancellation page and make use of it. Because honestly, this is an MMO, it requires teamwork and compromises and YES competition. It's what drives a player to be the best and go after the best gear. Without that it's just being spoonfed like the WoW babies and the Abyssea babies that we've been plagued with since the start of that expansion.

BTW. THANK YOU, Camate and thank you Development Team for this concession as a future relic holder, future mythic holder and a veteran player. I have a challenge to look forward too while I wait on content. Cheers Mate!

I reiterate ... please send all flame and hatred to Idungivediddly@trollolol.mail


It seems as if you decided to post an opinion without even bothering to read anything in this thread. Go away.

[Geabrielle]

It seems as if you decided to post an opinion without even bothering to read anything in this thread. Go away.

The sad part of this is I have been reading it in hopes of getting some development information.

[Unleashhell]

Greetings.

Some of you have already posted the information that was on the Japanese forums, but here it is again, officially.

Required number of items
As a result of adjustments to match the trial difficulty, the below are the current numbers that are planned for the stage 1 version of the weapon upgrades.

Relic Weapons: 5 items
Mythic Weapons: 3 items
Empyrean Weapons: 60 items



This should be thought about 1 more time.

The Dev team needs to realize you Dynamis has a time limit. In that time limit you can only make so many pop sets, then only kill ADL 1x per run because people used up their 2 hour abilities. SE needs to give more incentive for ADL along with some minor changes.

Here is what I propose:

Relic Weapons: 3 items

Mythic Weapons: 5 items (PW is still old level 75 content, ADL is newer higher level content and requires more)

Adjustments to Arch Dynamis Lord:

1-2 Umbral Marrow (1 is 100%, 2nd is TH based?)
1-4 100 Piece (1 is 100%, 2-4 is TH based?)


At least having 1-4 100 pieces is a little incentive. I suppose you can add a log or two to the drop list....*sarcasm*

[Creelo]

I just love how the people bitching about the people that are bitching about these Relic trials are the people that DON'T have a Relic.


BTW. THANK YOU, Camate and thank you Development Team for this concession as a future relic holder, future mythic holder and a veteran player. I have a challenge to look forward too while I wait on content. Cheers Mate!

Oh please lol

[Geabrielle]

The Dev team needs to realize you Dynamis has a time limit. In that time limit you can only make so many pop sets, then only kill ADL 1x per run because people used up their 2 hour abilities. SE needs to give more incentive for ADL along with some minor changes.

Adjustments to Arch Dynamis Lord:

1-2 Umbral Marrow (1 is 100%, 2nd is TH based?)
1-4 100 Piece (1 is 100%, 2-4 is TH based?)

This at least, I'll get behind as a possible adjustment to ADL himself. I can't go for the switch between Mythic and Relic simply because getting a Mythic is a bigger crap shoot than a Relic for time investment and has been since creation.

[CordeliaAzalan]

This should be thought about 1 more time.

The Dev team needs to realize you Dynamis has a time limit. In that time limit you can only make so many pop sets, then only kill ADL 1x per run because people used up their 2 hour abilities. SE needs to give more incentive for ADL along with some minor changes.

Here is what I propose:

Relic Weapons: 3 items

Mythic Weapons: 5 items (PW is still old level 75 content, ADL is newer higher level content and requires more)

Adjustments to Arch Dynamis Lord:

1-2 Umbral Marrow (1 is 100%, 2nd is TH based?)
1-4 100 Piece (1 is 100%, 2-4 is TH based?)


At least having 1-4 100 pieces is a little incentive. I suppose you can add a log or two to the drop list....*sarcasm*

While I don't agree with swapping of the item numbers (the overall road of Mythic is much longer and more annoying than Relic was and currently is), I can see why they cut Mythic-wielders some slack, I support the idea of 1-2 Marrows with 1 being 100%. And at the very least, half that concept should apply to PW in that his Mulcibar's Scoria should be 100%.

[Geabrielle]

I just love how the people bitching about the people that are bitching about these Relic trials are the people that DON'T have a Relic.



Oh please lol

It's perfectly acceptable to add my opinion here simply because it's an over all consideration to how far I choose to go with my weapon and as a basis of making the choice to get said weapon in the first place. I looked beyond the acquisition of the 75 itself, pre-adjustment of the killshots and what have you and still said "fine, I'll do this and see how they progress later". Considering I'm looking at the end of my progress before I've even gotten my weapon says that I'm taking the entire process into account not just how bad ass my weapon will be that very instant.

[Nynja]

While I don't agree with swapping of the item numbers (the overall road of Mythic is much longer and more annoying than Relic was, so I can see why they cut Mythic-wielders some slack), I support the idea of 1-2 Marrows with 1 being 100%. And at the very least, half that concept should apply to PW in that his Mulcibar's Scoria should be 100%.

There was nothing wrong with the PW trial then, at 10 items needed with the zeni/picture boost, it was fine, regardless of the fact that mythic weapons required giving their first born. The revised zeni was more than sufficient to make getting 10 PW pops a decent trial...maybe it wouldnt be finished in a week, but the difficulty scale was rather low.


The problem was, and still is, the relic trial. Cutting it down to 5 doesnt change the fact that its still the hardest trial by a decent margin. Break it down by manhours required, I'll copy what I wrote on another forum (though I'm gonna fix up some stuff since I wrote that on my phone):

ADL: realistically, with needing PD to kill adl, you can do one per run. For best chance of success, you should bring 18, so if youre wrong on the first set of clones, you can still kill the second set of clones. So you're already looking at 36 manhours per adl attempt. With a 75% kill rate factoring in the luck garbage, youre looking at about 7 adl attempts for 5 marrows. 36x7 is 252 manhours per relic 99, with marginal gains to those just helping. Everything must be coordinated with the schedule of 18 others.

PW: Requires approx 7 gamedays of zeni turnin at proposed 10x value. The picture taking should take 30 min for each days worth of pictures..maybe, been a while. The legwork can be 2boxd up to the tier 4s...and maybe the t4s as well. Presume 2 hours per t1-t2-t3 kill factoring in running time (im being generous) and 30 min for the T4, so 7 manhours per t4 x3 is 21 hours per pw set. Theres some complications since you can turn in pictures while getting new pop items...sooooo 21 hours per pw set of nms, 2 hours of picture taking, 30x18 minutes to kill pw.
...
30min*18*3 to kill all 3 PW's = 27 manhours
7 manhours per t4 set * 3 sets * 3 PW pop items = 63 manhours
add in 2 hours of picture taking (I dont remember when I mentally calculated it if this was for 1 PW set or 3...lets presume 1) x3 = 6 manhours

96 manhours to farm from 0 to 3 PW kills, with only 27 manhours requiring scheduling corrdination vs 252 manhours for 5 ADL kills requiring full scheduling coordination throughout.


thats not balance, especially considering you want the relic trials to be easier

[CordeliaAzalan]

There was nothing wrong with the PW trial then, at 10 items needed with the zeni/picture boost, it was fine, regardless of the fact that mythic weapons required giving their first born. The revised zeni was more than sufficient to make getting 10 PW pops a decent trial...maybe it wouldnt be finished in a week, but the difficulty scale was rather low.

Hmm, that's true that the increased zeni will aid in procuring a popset for PW, but it's still a decent amount of mobs you have to fight for that. At best, it'll take 12 mobs scattered across various zones to get you the 3 colored seals for a PW item, whereas ADL's is 5 mobs in the same zone. Granted, those 12 are still easier due to being lower level, it'll still take a longer period of time to get to all 12; that's where my concern of making the 1 Scoria 100% comes from.

[Arcon]

It could be 2 and the point still stands that no one does ADL

There is no point there. People will do ADL, for it. People will help others with it. People have always gone to far greater lengths to help friends and LS members out than about ten less than two hour long events, spread out over a an arbitrary length of time. And it will be done again.


I don't expect SE to hand people these weapons done with afterglows but really the disconnect between player and developer has reached Looney Tunes levels here.

Are you talking about the stage 1 trials? Because if you were talking about the last few weeks, I would have agreed with you. Last few days, less so, but still agreed. Now I agree that the disconnect between certain players and developers has reached Looney Tunes levels. Those players are a few misguided souls on here complaining about less than ten fights they have to do to achieve the ultimate weapon in a class (give or take). Pretty much everyone I knew was outraged about the fake trial numbers. Most people I knew were still unhappy about the reduced numbers. Now, no one I know is really complaining, aside from the occasional "meh" comment. That shows me, that everyone has calmed down and realized that this trial, in its current form, is more than doable. The fact that some people, now, of all times, go and proclaim the developers lack of common sense (after they've reduced the trial first by 95% and then again by another 75%) really makes them hard to take seriously.

I admit that stage 2 numbers are an entirely different topic. And tbh, I don't even know what the current state of those is... are they gonna be adjusted like the first stage was? Or were they, and I missed it? Somehow I find it hard to believe that SE would lower the stage 1 trials to an almost generous amount (by their standards) yet leave the stage 2 trials untouched. I almost expect them to lower those as well, because I doubt anyone would be willing to do the amount equal to 100 normal Lv99 relics for an underwhelming afterglow effect.


The JP are bitching as furiously as the NA because this is classic bait 'n switch. Make dynamis easy, encourage lowman relics, design trials up to 99 that require few people then BAM 99 needs a full alliance/linkshell + full Dynamis run for ONE person? lol.

Again, aside from a handful of people here I don't see anyone raging anymore. And it's hardly bait and switch, you're just reading intentions into their actions again. They were probably disappointed by what they let relics become. Ever since they were introduced relics were the symbol for ultimate achievement. What they did to Neodynamis was not so everyone could farm their relics in a few months (I'm pretty sure that's another development they didn't consider in advance), it was a reaction to the way empyreans knocked them off their throne. Giving the state of the game at that point, which was big LS fractioned into small parties, they wanted to make them more accessible as a trade-off for the lack of power.

However, these days things are more balanced. For some weapon classes, relics are better, for others mythics, for others empyreans. So for the ultimate upgrade, they wanted the game to return on its former path. And they didn't even go that far. Hell, even 20 ADL drops was still better than what used to be considered "normal" back in the day, now 5 is really nothing anyone can complain about.

[Nynja]

Hmm, that's true that the increased zeni will aid in procuring a popset for PW, but it's still a decent amount of mobs you have to fight for that. At best, it'll take 12 mobs scattered across various zones to get you the 3 colored seals for a PW item, whereas ADL's is 5 mobs in the same zone. Granted, those 12 are still easier due to being lower level, it'll still take a longer period of time to get to all 12; that's where my concern of making the 1 Scoria 100% comes from.

All of those mobs, up to and possibly including the t4 NM's, can all be done by someone 2boxing with relatively little difficulty.


There is no point there. People will do ADL, for it. People will help others with it. People have always gone to far greater lengths to help friends and LS members out than about ten less than two hour long events, spread out over a an arbitrary length of time. And it will be done again.

And during that time, those people, while helping out, were also gaining stuff on their end...either via loot or LS points to become #1 on said loot.



Again, aside from a handful of people here I don't see anyone raging anymore.

cuz they've been temp/perma banned for being unable to convey their rage in a somewhat polite manner.

[Anewie]

LOL man I wasn't going to say anything earlier.

1000 to 20, ppl still whine.

20 to 5, people still crying?

http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg




I have an idea, SE should just make an NPC where you can trade your 95 relic and he'll give you the 99 version w/ afterglow in exchange

I know you don't like me but THANK YOU

[detlef]

I've made my peace with the number of items required for the relic upgrade. My concern has turned to the procurement.

-ADL puts out quite a bit of damage and splits into copies, requiring you to either guess right or bring much more firepower to compensate. I think people would not bitch and complain as much if the fight were more repeatable.

-Currently there is only one ??? that is used for both DL and ADL. I assume an adjustment is on the way to allow more groups to pop simultaneously, as it is unreasonable to make people compete for the ??? when time is restricted.

-Must the marrow be restricted to only one mob? And only one drop per kill? Is there any harm in adding additional drop slots to ADL and/or adding marrow to other arch-mobs?

Considering how many relics there are out there, I think SE still isn't out of the woods yet because even if people get over the trial itself, a new wave of valid complaints regarding congestion may be just around the corner.

[Anewie]

Alright ... that's it.

I'm lending the Dev Team and dear Camate my www.crymeariver@whaambulance.mail because this is the largest session of crazy crying I've EVER seen on a forum. From 20 to 5, from 10 to 3 ... and dross/cinder is still 60. For the love of God, Allah, Altana .. whatever ... STOP CRYING!

This is a major concession in and of itself. For the FINAL tier of weapons (not including the Shiny Afterglow) the difficulty does and SHOULD fit what you're getting. Of the 56+ pages of whining, no its' NOT discussion, I've seen very little complaining about the 60 rift items - YES they can shout grouped, spammed, what have you but at the end of the day it's STILL 60 with a pittance of a drop rate and you'll have to pay for what you can't get.

If 5 items is still too much work, just stop threatening to quit go find the Cancellation page and make use of it. Because honestly, this is an MMO, it requires teamwork and compromises and YES competition. It's what drives a player to be the best and go after the best gear. Without that it's just being spoonfed like the WoW babies and the Abyssea babies that we've been plagued with since the start of that expansion.

BTW. THANK YOU, Camate and thank you Development Team for this concession as a future relic holder, future mythic holder and a veteran player. I have a challenge to look forward too while I wait on content. Cheers Mate!

I reiterate ... please send all flame and hatred to Idungivediddly@trollolol.mail


THANK YOU! Lovin it. I love non-whiney users, who don't want stuff handed to them.

If only theyd really quit, then SE would stop catering to these people.

GIVE ME THE BEST EASILY, OR I WILL QUIT!

At this point, yes its whining.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2mw7a68.jpg
SE REP^

[Creelo]

Hmm, that's true that the increased zeni will aid in procuring a popset for PW, but it's still a decent amount of mobs you have to fight for that. At best, it'll take 12 mobs scattered across various zones to get you the 3 colored seals for a PW item, whereas ADL's is 5 mobs in the same zone. Granted, those 12 are still easier due to being lower level, it'll still take a longer period of time to get to all 12; that's where my concern of making the 1 Scoria 100% comes from.

There's hardly a time constaint though with getting Zeni. You can easily get the pop items/Zeni on your own time.

This is not the case with the Relic Trial. You'll have less than 2 Hours a day to get one ADL done (since 2hrs are used on ADL, you won't really be able to do more unless you bring in several Cor Mules or something lol). This cannot be done on your own or with just a few; you'll want a full Alliance for ADL.

If they do anything else, I really think they should at least let ADL's clones drop 1 Marrow as well. The description of the Umbral Marrow itself seems to match this idea as well. "A piceous substance made of pure shadow condensed into liquid form."

If SE were to do this, I would have much less of a problem with this trial because even if the ADL Run were to fail, you should be able to at least kill one of ADL's shadows.

[Seankp]

The DEVs of this game truly are out of touch and have lost sight of what is and isn't obtainable for the dwindling population of this game.

Arch Dynamis Lord drops are NOT realistic in this game. The Arch DL was not a realistic mob to farm when it was released at level 90, and still is not realistic even at 99!

People are accustomed to doing shouts for Voidwatch because EVERYONE gets rewarded every fight with SOMETHING. The Arch Dynamis Lord gear all sucks, the ONLY reason to do it would be for Umbral Marrow, 1 at a time for 1 person at a time. That is ridiculous.

I collected currency for 2 years, from 2005 to 2007 before I finished my relic, to be unable to upgrade it to 99 is a slap in the face for anyone who upgraded a relic before and after the changes, more so to the ones who did it before dynamis changed.

The Developers do not listen to their customers. They are stuck up in their own ideas of difficulty and fail to see any real logic in their decisions about the relics stage 1 95>99 trial.

The Mythic 95->99 trial stage 1 is FINE, PW is VERY easy to kill. Twilight Mail/Helm and level difference made this fight a joke. Even if this trial remained at 10 items, it would still be 100x easier than 5 Arch Dynamis Lord drops.

The Empyrean 95->99 trial stage 1 is FINE. It just takes numerous kills for Ig-Alima/Botulus Rex and buying them from people who have no intention of ever doing the 1500 Heavy Metal Plates.

NO ONE does the Arch Dynamis Lord. No one will do shouts for the Arch Dynamis Lord because everyone who has a relic will want the Umbral Marrow and once someone has their required amount, they likelihood of them ever helping on an Arch Dynamis Lord again drops to almost 0. People who have no relic have no reason or purpose to help them, there is no incentive, no reward, just a big waste of time.

Speaking of waste of time, everything the users (AKA SE's paying customers) have said on this forum, has been an utter waste of time because the Developers are NOT listening.

[wish12oz]

Ninja Edit: Ohohohoho, the dev team is consistent with one thing though: Disappointment.

It's to bad Tanaka is so bad at developing FFXI, or these trials could of really been fun.

EDIT: Just to make it clear, 5 is to many for ADL drops, and why the *&^$ were the empyrean items required not lowered like the rest? Empyreans already cost more then relics with the BS 1500 plate trial, quit screwing them over.

[Sparthos]

Who needs logistics when I have friends??

No, honestly. It's no less difficult to build an ADL than it is for a voidwatch group if you can either make appeal to their sense of greed (which is sad) or their sense of camaraderie if they've never been mistreated by said greedy bastards. It's not any different than any other large-scale content we've dealt with as players over the long years of gameplay. So seriously?? What's all the crying for? The other obvious answer to this is just not do it and we know what kinda bomb that's going to produce.

So because you have friends willing to repeat this mob for you at no gain to them (from the run itself), the trial is fine? Selfish much?

Funny you bring up large scale content because those events lacking incentive for individuals usually died instantly or were never big hits amongst the mainstream base. Yilbegan? Hydra? Fomor HNMs? Jormungand? The list is numerous of large scale content that sat idle because the drops were either complete shit or the one good drop wasn't worth fielding 18 people to obtain.

Now the game has shrunken down to mostly PUGs you really think people are going to successfully shout ADLs? Content that isn't being used seems to be what SE relishes in releasing when they come up with stuff like this. Well that or people desperate to swipe a debit card to finish the trial.

SE>> "We think most people will complete Stage 1."

Me>> "Think again."

[Nynja]

EDIT: Just to make it clear, 5 is to many for ADL drops, and why the *&^$ were the empyrean items required not lowered like the rest? Empyreans already cost more then relics with the BS 1500 plate trial, quit screwing them over.

Because no one bitched thinking the 1500 was a placeholder on the test server, which is why now we bitch because we know there are no placeholder numbers.



So because you have friends willing to repeat this mob for you at no gain to them (from the run itself), the trial is fine? Selfish much?

actually its at a loss of a couple million gil per person since they could be using that dynamis time to farm for themselves.

[Seankp]

Forgot to post my new suggestion to the Relic Trial. Relic trial only is the problem, not Mythic, not Empyrean.

Seriously, 5-10 Arch Dynamis Lord kills or bust at this point!

The relic trial needs to be amount of kills. Who cares about the 4 or 5 groups that have started farming a handful of Umbral Marrows. Let them sell them to those people who want Stage 2 Afterglow.

The trial NEEDS to be kills so Umbral Marrow is brought into circulation and people can actually complete stage 2!

The DEVs need to stop being stubborn and think with their heads for once, and not their .....!

[Karbuncle]

I don't care if they made the Trial more difficult, As long as we didn't have to kill Arch Dynamis Lord.

ANYTHING but Arch Dynamis Lord. I'd take Having to kill Botulus Rex 100 TImes, At least he's consistently winnable and has no Coin Toss factors.

[Nynja]

I don't care if they made the Trial more difficult, As long as we didn't have to kill Arch Dynamis Lord.

ANYTHING but Arch Dynamis Lord. I'd take Having to kill Botulus Rex 100 TImes, At least he's consistently winnable and has no Coin Toss factors.

Watch out, you're going to trigger Atroies's rage because he already bought his 60 rifts!!

[Babygyrl]

Greetings.

Some of you have already posted the information that was on the Japanese forums, but here it is again, officially.

Required number of items
As a result of adjustments to match the trial difficulty, the below are the current numbers that are planned for the stage 1 version of the weapon upgrades.

Relic Weapons: 5 items
Mythic Weapons: 3 items
Empyrean Weapons: 60 items


※As we are currently carefully looking into the number of items required for stage 2, we will let you know the specifics once the information is available.

Well its official that i am officially disappointed. It is a real shame, you informed us this trial will be able to be done by almost "everyone" for part 1. If this is going to be the final product for the trial, then SE has clearly lied to us all. This trial is not doable by everyone, UNLESS you have a boat load of gil to buy the items. Collecting an item from a extremely difficult NM is not balanced in the slightest. Unless you have a secret up your sleeve and the item is going to drop from regular NM's as well, then there is just no hope for us is there? How long does SE expect this game to live on? years? That is Highly doubtful.

I am personally going to be content with Mandau at 95. 2 damage and 5 attack is not going to be worth the pain and suffering that will be endured to fight ADL. I am just disappointed on how the development team has pretty much teased/fooled us all. They have forgotten that some people spent years building their relics/mythics just to level 75. It took my husband over 3 years to finally complete Gungnir only being able able to do so once Dynamis changed. And now he is never going to get to complete it to 99, because of this terrible trial. Fighting an NM like ADL should be fun and a Achievement, not a painful chore. By adding this item to ADL for a trial that Many will need, you have completely taken the fun out of fighting something that difficult.

I have enjoyed the new dynamis changes, and i would have never ever decided to build a mandau if the changes were never made, i felt like they were just so unfair/hard to obtain. (I still feel this way about mythics) But at the very least, it was doable because people you got in your ls to come would get AF they really wanted in return. There is nothing people are going to want from ADL to even bother helping anyone do it. Hell, building a mandau is the only thing keeping me interested in the game right now, there is simply nothing else to do.

I thought the point of the Magaian trials was suppose to be something fun, and rewarding at the same time. Having the capability to Build all of them either as a group or alone, gives everyone a fair advantage. The entire point of playing a game is to have fun, and these trials will certainly not be fun for any mythic/relic/emp owners. I would rather have trials that are slow/steady/consistent then what these have come out to be, seeing progress and growth keeps me interested, not something like ADL killing which would make me stressed out to no end. To say you cant change the trial because people "already started collecting" the items is such a lie, and not doing kills for these NMs because everyone would get credit is bad" clearly states that SE pretty much wants 99 relics/emp/mythics to be non existent. Well if you wanted to achieve "balance" in a sense that no one rather then everyone will obtain it, you sure will have achieved that goal. So in closing these trials need/should be completely changed, NM's that hard should not be involved in these trials period. However, we all know they do not care what we want. Unless ffxi development team has content in the works worth staying for ( and this sure as hell dont cut it) Do not be surprised when the player base begins to sink even more.

[Sparthos]

There is no point there. People will do ADL, for it. People will help others with it. People have always gone to far greater lengths to help friends and LS members out than about ten less than two hour long events, spread out over a an arbitrary length of time. And it will be done again.

Arcon, buddy we're in 2012 and this game isn't what it used to be at the height of LS runs. Abyssea changed things, behaviors changed over time and the game has shifted from gearing one man on the backs of many to mutual benefit in events like Abyssea, Voidwatch, Walk of Echoes and soon Legion. This was all SEs doing yet they somehow reached the conclusion to pull something from the 2007 closet.

This trial sticks out like a sore thumb, a festering gash, a stinky gym sock from the days of FFXI long past. While some LS still relish in gearing dear leader at any cost most people are simply not going to be willing to join a group to gear up some schmuck with a 99 relic with no gain.

SE has been so adamant about 'fairness' and then they go around and then release content like this where 1 person gains and 17 lose. Beyond the usual SE statements we have a term for the current actions and it's called 'flip flopping'. Perhaps Tanaka should get into politics. What is it? Fair play to the extreme or the pyramid schemes of FFXI past?



Are you talking about the stage 1 trials? Because if you were talking about the last few weeks, I would have agreed with you. Last few days, less so, but still agreed. Now I agree that the disconnect between certain players and developers has reached Looney Tunes levels. Those players are a few misguided souls on here complaining about less than ten fights they have to do to achieve the ultimate weapon in a class (give or take). Pretty much everyone I knew was outraged about the fake trial numbers. Most people I knew were still unhappy about the reduced numbers. Now, no one I know is really complaining, aside from the occasional "meh" comment. That shows me, that everyone has calmed down and realized that this trial, in its current form, is more than doable. The fact that some people, now, of all times, go and proclaim the developers lack of common sense (after they've reduced the trial first by 95% and then again by another 75%) really makes them hard to take seriously.

Both trials are simply irresponsible.

You're fixed on this 5 kills thing but what of an LS with numerous relics? 5 kills per person gets out of hand quickly and turns Dynamis from the semi-casual event it is now to "grind Dynamis-Xarc only for months". What of a person who plays casually, finished a relic and now seeks 99? How will they manage to get anywhere in this trial? Shout? Hah.

The people who have calmed down have done what happens in most cases in this game: accepted the devs are clueless morons who know very little of the game their tasked to upkeep and develop. I'm not a fan of insulting the devs but they seriously make it all too easy when they say one thing, do another and think no one is going to call them on the non-existent logic.


I admit that stage 2 numbers are an entirely different topic. And tbh, I don't even know what the current state of those is... are they gonna be adjusted like the first stage was? Or were they, and I missed it? Somehow I find it hard to believe that SE would lower the stage 1 trials to an almost generous amount (by their standards) yet leave the stage 2 trials untouched. I almost expect them to lower those as well, because I doubt anyone would be willing to do the amount equal to 100 normal Lv99 relics for an underwhelming afterglow effect.

The stage2 trials by right shouldn't even exist because it's irresponsible and goes against the 'word to the players' that you're forced to go through every time you log in. Beyond that, the fact the stage 2 is only marginally better shows that even when it comes to the 'ultimate' years-long grind SE can't even deliver on that front.

Years of work and you get a weak sphere that doesn't affect you, a 'glow' and personal satisfaction? lol.


Again, aside from a handful of people here I don't see anyone raging anymore. And it's hardly bait and switch, you're just reading intentions into their actions again. They were probably disappointed by what they let relics become. Ever since they were introduced relics were the symbol for ultimate achievement. What they did to Neodynamis was not so everyone could farm their relics in a few months (I'm pretty sure that's another development they didn't consider in advance), it was a reaction to the way empyreans knocked them off their throne. Giving the state of the game at that point, which was big LS fractioned into small parties, they wanted to make them more accessible as a trade-off for the lack of power.

How is it not bait and switch when they clearly release Emps as 'casual' relics then ramp up 1500 plates and 60 VW items which comes out to more than a relic costs? You're a casual player, manage to smash out your Emp and then once Abyssea's curtain falls you dropped on your head in a sea of 100k plates and 500k-3m dross/cinder. Yeah, thats definitely how you keep logging in, frustrate the fuck outta them.

"What they let relics become?" Newsflash, this game is aging and even under current Dynamis conditions relics are still quite a bit of work to complete for your average joe going in with a friend/2box. Why would you change course when the base is happy with the current state of Dynamis? If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is the dev team schizophrenic? One day they ease restrictions then the next day BAM time to make those customers pay for having fun. None of it makes a lick of sense.

They're not stupid, they knew making Dynamis what it is today would make relics easier yet somehow it was unforseen? This trial just seems like a knee-jerk with no attention paid to the current state of FFXI.


However, these days things are more balanced. For some weapon classes, relics are better, for others mythics, for others empyreans. So for the ultimate upgrade, they wanted the game to return on its former path. And they didn't even go that far. Hell, even 20 ADL drops was still better than what used to be considered "normal" back in the day, now 5 is really nothing anyone can complain about.

Players keep saying across all languages do not take FFXI back to the old days of brutality because a more wise/aged base simply isn't up for that and yet again SE fails to grasp it. Sure, you'll have people that take the craziest shit head on and complete 99s but is that worth losing people in a declining game? You'd think SE gives a damn about the happiness of their base but the faulty logic and pointless 'difficulty' factors just boggles the mind.

[Insaniac]

5 IS A SMALLER NUMBER STOP COMPLAINING!!!

It's not the difficulty of the trial it's the content and the bottleneck that it creates inside groups of people who want to work together to complete it. The sad thing is I bet the devs are sitting around with trollfaces saying the exact same thing as these people who aren't even understanding a majority of our posts.

The problem with ADL trials is not the time it would take for an individual to complete them. It's the fact that you need to be a selfish, self centered, greedy, asshole to not get stuck killing ADL 20-150 times. Raise the number required and add the drops to normal low man dynamis content.

[Geabrielle]

So because you have friends willing to repeat this mob for you at no gain to them (from the run itself), the trial is fine? Selfish much?



tl;dr ...

Or rather, that I have friends willing to do this with the confidence that their help will be reciprocated is difficult to believe. Large scale events eventually crumbled for a myriad of reasons of which selfish jerks were the greatest perpetrators. Now that individualism and multi-accounts have been bumped up into the 'ruling division' of getting things accomplished the return to a larger scale is a crimp in their stride and thus unwelcome. I'm willing to bet this is mostly because of the bridges burned from previous assholishness. Sucks to be them.

[Vold]

5 should make all linkshell people breathe a lot easier. 250 is the new number for stage 2, 75% off just like stage 1. Calling it now. Possibly 300 just 'cause. BTW not surprised a few more joined the "Stage 1 is Cool" club. You fell hook, line, and sinker for "it"

It's pretty obvious these trials are a done deal. Only thing left for us to do really is either take it and do them or don't do them at all. Whether the number is 1 or 100 drops, or kills, ADL for stage 1 is a done deal. Poor relics. You had it so good until now. Now you got some punk high level NM to go through for level 99. Where's lv75 content when you need it!

[Nala]

There was nothing wrong with the PW trial then, at 10 items needed with the zeni/picture boost, it was fine, regardless of the fact that mythic weapons required giving their first born. The revised zeni was more than sufficient to make getting 10 PW pops a decent trial...maybe it wouldnt be finished in a week, but the difficulty scale was rather low.


The problem was, and still is, the relic trial. Cutting it down to 5 doesnt change the fact that its still the hardest trial by a decent margin. Break it down by manhours required, I'll copy what I wrote on another forum (though I'm gonna fix up some stuff since I wrote that on my phone):

ADL: realistically, with needing PD to kill adl, you can do one per run. For best chance of success, you should bring 18, so if youre wrong on the first set of clones, you can still kill the second set of clones. So you're already looking at 36 manhours per adl attempt. With a 75% kill rate factoring in the luck garbage, youre looking at about 7 adl attempts for 5 marrows. 36x7 is 252 manhours per relic 99, with marginal gains to those just helping. Everything must be coordinated with the schedule of 18 others.

PW: Requires approx 7 gamedays of zeni turnin at proposed 10x value. The picture taking should take 30 min for each days worth of pictures..maybe, been a while. The legwork can be 2boxd up to the tier 4s...and maybe the t4s as well. Presume 2 hours per t1-t2-t3 kill factoring in running time (im being generous) and 30 min for the T4, so 7 manhours per t4 x3 is 21 hours per pw set. Theres some complications since you can turn in pictures while getting new pop items...sooooo 21 hours per pw set of nms, 2 hours of picture taking, 30x18 minutes to kill pw.
...
30min*18*3 to kill all 3 PW's = 27 manhours
7 manhours per t4 set * 3 sets * 3 PW pop items = 63 manhours
add in 2 hours of picture taking (I dont remember when I mentally calculated it if this was for 1 PW set or 3...lets presume 1) x3 = 6 manhours

96 manhours to farm from 0 to 3 PW kills, with only 27 manhours requiring scheduling corrdination vs 252 manhours for 5 ADL kills requiring full scheduling coordination throughout.


thats not balance, especially considering you want the relic trials to be easier

Damn i was just thinking about bringing up the whole man hours aspect too damn you nynja, also you put a bit more of a complex analysis then i would have. either way while i don't feel as full on rage mode about this trial anymore the dev team's still off their rocker.

[Camiie]

Sorry for being ignorant here, but do we know for a fact the drop rates on the 99 trial items yet? Do we know them to be 100%? I just want to be clear.

[Nynja]

People have killed ADL and PW...its 1 item at 100%. Unless SE ninja changes something, but at this point, it would probably be in their better interests to announce a change in drop locale.

[Insaniac]

SEs post on the JP forums suggests they are 100%. Technically ADL has his own built in 50-75% drop rate on a 100% item though lol.

[Vold]

tl;dr ...

Or rather, that I have friends willing to do this with the confidence that their help will be reciprocated is difficult to believe. Large scale events eventually crumbled for a myriad of reasons of which selfish jerks were the greatest perpetrators. Now that individualism and multi-accounts have been bumped up into the 'ruling division' of getting things accomplished the return to a larger scale is a crimp in their stride and thus unwelcome. I'm willing to bet this is mostly because of the bridges burned from previous assholishness. Sucks to be them.Or people with a life now because they grew up after 8 years of playing. Sucks to be them, I guess. Righto? Eff'm. Goofballs never should have stopped owning in a hardcore shell. They earned that lv75 relic but we're 99 now and according to videogame law that means they have to bust their asses off all over again to get lv99 weapons. SE should not just rightfully hand it to us like pretty much everything else that's been upgraded from 75 with augments and magian trials. Who cares about justice here. Eff'm. I want my exclusive lv99 weapon that's even more prestigious than before.

Lol. I never thought I'd see the day when relic holders would be hating on each other. SE sure knows how to play with emotions and prestige.

[Camiie]

People have killed ADL and PW...its 1 item at 100%. Unless SE ninja changes something, but at this point, it would probably be in their better interests to announce a change in drop locale.


SEs post on the JP forums suggests they are 100%. Technically ADL has his own built in 50-75% drop rate on a 100% item though lol.


Well that's good then. I do give them credit for that.

[Geabrielle]

Or people with a life now because they grew up after 8 years of playing. Sucks to be them, I guess. Righto? Eff'm. Goofballs never should have stopped owning in a hardcore shell. They earned that lv75 relic but we're 99 now and according to videogame law that means they have to bust their asses off all over again to get lv99 weapons. SE should not just rightfully hand it to us like pretty much everything else that's been upgraded from 75 with augments and magian trials. Who cares about justice here. Eff'm. I want my exclusive lv99 weapon that's even more prestigious than before.

Lol. I never thought I'd see the day when relic holders would be hating on each other. SE sure knows how to play with emotions and prestige.

To hell with Prestige, if I cared about it I'd be crying as hard as everybody else about the unreal requirements. I can't dual box nor can I do RMTstyle 6 account ducklings in a row to kill stuff like the majority of bitching population. I'm solely at the mercy of having to maintain relationships with actual people, with varied schedules and demands on their lives. Yes, we're grown up now and I acknowledge that and thus time to accomplish things are precious. I also accept people with limited time are more than capable of setting priorities and staging their goals accordingly.... oh wait .. I forgot, this is WoWFantasy 2012.

Never mind.

[Sargent]

I still think it's a bit unbalanced. The Mythic trial isn't as bad, if you had a group grinding NMs, you could probably finish a 99 Mythic in 3 days (excluding the 5 hours of zeni farming per PW). Relic's will take at least 5. I say at least because ADL still split's itself and can still screw you over this way. Kills still would be better, but that's not happening considering all of 10 people might have started said trials.
Emp Trial's fine considering it's a joke to get an Emp to 90 as opposed to getting a Relic and Mythic to 75.

[Karbuncle]

To hell with Prestige, if I cared about it I'd be crying as hard as everybody else about the unreal requirements. I can't dual box nor can I do RMTstyle 6 account ducklings in a row to kill stuff like the majority of bitching population. I'm solely at the mercy of having to maintain relationships with actual people, with varied schedules and demands on their lives. Yes, we're grown up now and I acknowledge that and thus time to accomplish things are precious. I also accept people with limited time are more than capable of setting priorities and staging their goals accordingly.... oh wait .. I forgot, this is WoWFantasy 2012.

Never mind.

You can call it WoWFantasy as a joke, But WoW is one of the most successful and popular MMO's on the market. You know why? They actually f**king listen to their playerbase now and again, and realize not everyone who plays their game is a 14yr old shut-in with all the time in the world to do shit in their game.

Something SE Doesn't seem to realize (Not so much the 99 trials, but the "Glow" Trials).

FFXI Becoming less of a broom-rape Bot-war Grind-fest was nothing that should be looked down upon. This is just a gigantic back-peddle with someone at top attempting to troll this game back to an Era the majority of the player base enjoyed leaving behind.

[Camiie]

Emp Trial's fine considering it's a joke to get an Emp to 90 as opposed to getting a Relic and Mythic to 75.

I disagree with this line of thinking. I think the difficulty for trials should be consistent and progressive. SE did that pretty well with Empys up until the 95 stage. After that they decided to completely UN-balance the difficulty and put Mt. Everest where a gradual slope should have been.

[Unctgtg]

Really SE, I have continued to defend you through the years as many of your dedicated followers have. But when you continue to ignore what we are saying over and over again, about what makes this game enjoyable for us, but still offer a challenge. It is a HUGE slap in the face for a fan base that has given so many years and countless millions of dollars to your company.

The comment Camate made (not going to be mad at him), but when you say oh we don't want to change it based off people already began collecting, is a slap in the face to your fan base. Please stop focusing on aspects of the game that are DEAD. Focus on what the player base wants at the moment and as you see there are 60+ pages on English forums, about 10 topics dedicated to this, and I am sure our counter parts from around the world have just as many telling you we don't want this, we want something else, something EVERYONE can ENJOY, not go completely mad over. You said it yourself SE, a MAJORITY can obtain, not just a few. Again I state a Majority is 85% or higher, but you seem to not get this.

People have been suggesting how to fix this. Don't give me oh that would be to hard to fix. I have seen your source code programming for FFXI. IT IS NOT HARD.

In closing, Either change the trial to something more realistic, or you will lose your playerbase as you can see in all these topics, and this one with over 600 posts.

[Geabrielle]

WoW is popular because you can set a bot to do endgame and walk away from your computer. It's like that annoying Gambit system in FF12 where it was pretty much to auto-play, which amounts to the same thing. The Dev is listening and they are making adjustments that will maintain the integrity and challenge of an FF game and to assure this they gave us the Test Servers. Games like this are constantly evolving and changes have to be carefully implemented, true some of them I don't particularly like but I deal with because change will come but it will take time.

Besides.. .it's only 5 and it looks like it will be 100%. Mythic only 3, 100% drop probably. Empyreans are stuck grinding voidwatch for abysmal drop rates and prices on 95 and 99 upgrades. I have lost all sympathy at this point.

[Nynja]

Besides.. .it's only 5 and it looks like it will be 100%. Mythic only 3, 100% drop probably. Empyreans are stuck grinding voidwatch for abysmal drop rates and prices on 95 and 99 upgrades. I have lost all sympathy at this point.

Then you can be the one to fuel the supply of marrows on your server since its "so easy"

[Alerith]

Back in my day, it took 4 years of camping to get Defending Ring to drop.

Got outlotted by three points.

Life's a bitch sometimes.

[Sparthos]

Back in my day, it took 4 years of camping to get Defending Ring to drop.

Got outlotted by three points.

Life's a bitch sometimes.

The solution is clearly to go back to such frustrations!

[Geabrielle]

I'm done with this. I'm gonna take my marrows and lego-builder in my mog house.

[Sparthos]

I'm done with this. I'm gonna take my marrows and lego-builder in my mog house.

Better yet shout a PUG for ADL right now and shut everyone up by posting pics of that groups success since its so easy.

I await the wipe.

[Camiie]

WoW is popular because you can set a bot to do endgame and walk away from your computer. It's like that annoying Gambit system in FF12 where it was pretty much to auto-play, which amounts to the same thing.


Um... no... I'm calling BS on this.



The Dev is listening and they are making adjustments that will maintain the integrity and challenge of an FF game and to assure this they gave us the Test Servers. Games like this are constantly evolving and changes have to be carefully implemented, true some of them I don't particularly like but I deal with because change will come but it will take time.


Integrity and challenge of an FF game? The way it plays, FFXI barely even qualifies as an FF game. It's as much a linear JRPG as WoW is a RTS.



Besides.. .it's only 5 and it looks like it will be 100%. Mythic only 3, 100% drop probably. Empyreans are stuck grinding voidwatch for abysmal drop rates and prices on 95 and 99 upgrades. I have lost all sympathy at this point.


Well we do seem to agree on the Empy path being a total screwjob

[Zinato]

A few thoughts which I hope make it to the DEVs round table.

Mythics - Thanks to the increase in Zeni per plate this trial is perfectly reasonable. For that matter given what it takes to gain mythic, and that PW is very PuGable this should be NP.

Empyrean - 60 is just fine, Empyrean deserves no sympathy given the mass difference in the effort needed to create to a level 90 version. The fact that they are on par with or superior to both counterparts in the super weapon class justifies this. Yes, 1500 plates is 150m and about what relic costs but, empyrean doesn't cost a thing to get to 90 so it’s just leveling the playing field. Additionally, I doubt any rational person would say making mythic is comparable to making empyrean. However, some do claim relic is just as easy being a player can now solo farm the currency in roughly 90 days. To this argument, understand many Empyrean can be made in PuGs within a week. When people can say things like "you just need an empy" in reference to a super weapon there is an issue, imagine telling someone at 75 "you just need a relic".

Last is relic, which right now is the only class of super weapon that is in discussion.
A few thoughts, first kills trials are not reasonable for two reasons. First, once the initial rush to complete the trial is over players earning relic after or missing the rush will be in the same boat of gathering 18 people all of whom don't need the fight. Reason two this is a bad idea is that many of the common relic are shields and melee weapons, and Arch Dynamis Lord is not something that just any combination of job can do.

Next, as far as multiple drop points go, when an item is dropped from multiple mobs (even at a reduced rate, even then do you want Merrow to be any less than 100%?) players will always seek to kill the easiest of the bunch. This brings up a second issue where in Dynamis is a timed event, ANY cause for congestion is bad. Unlike Abyssea, Dynamis has a full 24 un-adjustable re-entry. Things will be no different than trying to get empyrean NMs before the x3 adjustment. Also, I don't think a simple ??? addition will suffice as in Abyssea there are ~18 empyrean NMs and that had issues imagine what happens if every relic holder wants one NM.

Another suggestion I've seen is gain 1m exp, and while that is an impressive number this too is unrealistic. I imagine that upon implementation players will quickly find level syncs willing to be bought/help. I believe Dynamis allows the double exp of last year meaning a possible 400exp/kill plus exp bands if those work. Dynamis would become a party zone for relic holders, which among congestion, will like with kill counts cause some players to have to help without benefit. (won’t find many healers doing relic trials) Aside from that, imagine what 1m exp would do to the Magian completion message one kill and 400 messages appear. Would likely involve altering the Magian System.

Another suggestion offers 10k kills of any kind. This is as simple as one of the greatest weapons of all time being brought to maximum potential by killing EP rabbits. A bit anticlimactic I would think. (Also kill count with a shield? I assume the wielder has to get finishing blow otherwise, it just Abyssea party time)

There is no point in going over why the current method is flawed since there is 100+ posts on it just be aware that a x1 drop from ADL won't work. This is the DEVs preferred method since players who jumped the gun and took Test Server data as final started collecting them.

However, I would like to expand on this idea. What if upon defeat ADL dropped a chest? (I know what you’re thinking OH GOD VW, be at ease I have an idea) This chest has 100% chance of Merrow + whatever else they want to put in, maybe some logs or something. All other drops will go to pool just as normal.
The benefits of this are as follows:
#1 Players who may already have the drops will still be able to use them as needed.
#2 Players will not be required to play the job of the weapon they wish to upgrade.
#3 In the event that later down the line players cannot find a team to finish off ADL they still have the option to buy (unlike kill count)
#4 While it is true this leads to 18x the drop rate this also means two important things first if a player sacrifices a drop to another player by trading it they will still have to obtain one themselves later, a player not upgrading relic can still choose to sell the drop as a means of compensation for helping the run. (This will also lower merc shell prices to one reasonable of players)

As previously stated this will increase the overall count of the item and as compensation a x2 or x3 (Definately not x18) to required turn ins. This is my least favorite of my ideas.

The bigger complaint is the difficulty of ADL at 99 which borders on Kirin at 75. This leads to my preferred idea.
Merrow would be added to Fait Lux as an x1 drop. The reasoning goes a little something like this.
(SPOILERS AHEAD)

First of all, Fait Lux has a maximum of 6 man entry, and much like Dynamis a once a day limit (Unless you stock in advance) This means a smaller group needed to obtain these items while still being a moderately challenging fight. However, unlike Dynamis in the event of congestion there is no time limit on the wait area for Fait Lux. So while congestion will still be an issue it’s not wasting a once a day opportunity.

Merrows in circulation would again be able to be used, (to not screw those who have them) while still maintaining an item drop meaning the relic jobs within the BCNM would not be required.

Now I know the DEVs want to keep the mythology behind Dynamis in relic trials but, as we should know the Crystal War era we experience in WoTG is the true crystal war not the weaker universe we know in our world. Many of the relic holders existed in this time just as they do in ours but, as shown in one of the CS they were soundly beaten at the Shadow Lords hands. Up until now we have been farming the remnants of the relic trapped within Dynamis, so why not go to the original and I do mean original (not our altered world) to obtain its maximum form. Rather than the current ADL which has no story or real reason to exist within Dynamis other then "additional content"

Now, for the drawbacks.
First, the Earth time needed for upgrades is unaltered (I would assume the number needed for completion is unaltered) with exception to the fact a team of 18 relic holders can go in 3 groups cutting the time between them in 1/3. (For those big relic lss)

This still doesn't answer the problem of finding help, however, it won't be wasting a 1-3m Dynamis run and spending a campaign op is a much lower opportunity cost, I imagine finding help would be easier.

Final drawback is the need to occupy and maintain control over the Northlands. I suggest a few things, first allow any allied faction to access Fait Lux so long as Altana controls the Northlands rather than just the nation occupying it. (There is no real reason to have players fighting themselves for control, when it’s the Shadowlord who is the enemy anyway) As far as gaining the Northlands in the first place a team of ~18 can easily steal the north, if every relic holder did this it would be ours very quickly and stay that way for a long time.

Obviously, its not 100% perfect but, one or both ideas I would think are preferred over the current option.
Sorry the post is so long, and if someone had this idea already sorry, I missed it. (just think of me restating an idea if that's the case)

[Insaniac]

Too complicated. Add the drop to NMs that can be killed by 3-6 people and increase the requirement to 20-30. Trial fixed.

[Sparthos]

Too complicated. Add the drop to NMs that can be killed by 3-6 people and increase the requirement to 20-30. Trial fixed.

All Arch bosses drop the item which allows for flexibility but the SE response: This would make the afterglow trial 'too easy'.

[Zinato]

The problem with all Arch bosses is it mean you could in one Dynamis run do more then one probebly several. Unless you just mean the one boss in each zone, if that is the case all that would accomplish is making everyone seek the weakest one.

[Natasha]

I'm sure someone will find fault in it but why not have the trial branch with the same rewards? (or even slightly different as i'll explain a lil further down)

branch 1:
The current 5 marrow/ 3 PW item / and void w/e (so then the people who started to gather early can be happy)

branch 2:
something solo or low-man that takes a 'long time' Ex: 5-10k kills with weapon (SE could even throw in a stipulation that doesnt allow you to get a stage 2 through this path, sortof like the fake empy's or something)

This would allow the marrows to still have value, and be the quicker path (given you have the support) to your relic and the people who can't or have a severe aversion to arch dynamis can slowly and safely work out their own upgrade.

Yes this will make it harder to get help on arch dynamis but in so far as i've seen nothing really promotes doing arch dynamis except changing his drops.

[Zumi]

The problem with ADL still is nobody will want to go. People lose 2m gil each by helping you and with no benefit to them they will likly not want to help you.

Its much easier to get help with PW from random people because they don't lose anything in the process. With having to kill ADL you lose your dynamis lockout for the day which is worth about 2m in currency sales to you if you solo. Finding people to come help you kill ADL for only your benefit just won't fly with most people.

Do the devs even play the game. PW at level 99 is a complete joke. Last time I fought PW was at 90 and he was a joke even then but even more so now. Sure you have to kill a bunch of weak ZNM to build a pop but its much easier then killing ADL.

Just the way ADL works too you may or may not kill it.

[Zinato]

I'm sure someone will find fault in it but why not have the trial branch with the same rewards? (or even slightly different as i'll explain a lil further down)

branch 1:
The current 5 marrow/ 3 PW item / and void w/e (so then the people who started to gather early can be happy)

branch 2:
something solo or low-man that takes a 'long time' Ex: 5-10k kills with weapon (SE could even throw in a stipulation that doesnt allow you to get a stage 2 through this path, sortof like the fake empy's or something)

This would allow the marrows to still have value, and be the quicker path (given you have the support) to your relic and the people who can't or have a severe aversion to arch dynamis can slowly and safely work out their own upgrade.

Yes this will make it harder to get help on arch dynamis but in so far as i've seen nothing really promotes doing arch dynamis except changing his drops.

All ideas have fault, otherwise they would be unconditionally the right answer. The idea has merit, please consider this constructive criticism. First, given the nature of these weapons I don't think they would ever close off Stage 2. Branching is a great idea but, there are two things I am nearly sure SE is going for. First, I'm fairly sure they wish to maintain a once a day limit as a means to balance casual and hardcore. In other words prevent a player playing 18 hours a day from having a major advantage over someone who plays 3. Second, and this I'm sure of, they want to maintain the Relic story meaning a trial to grant it power would need to have some origin with dynamis, or the crystal war era. Adjust the conditions to something related to one of the two and it could work. One path faster in a group, one designed for a small team.

[Ravenmore]

To hell with Prestige, if I cared about it I'd be crying as hard as everybody else about the unreal requirements. I can't dual box nor can I do RMTstyle 6 account ducklings in a row to kill stuff like the majority of bitching population. I'm solely at the mercy of having to maintain relationships with actual people, with varied schedules and demands on their lives. Yes, we're grown up now and I acknowledge that and thus time to accomplish things are precious. I also accept people with limited time are more than capable of setting priorities and staging their goals accordingly.... oh wait .. I forgot, this is WoWFantasy 2012.

Never mind.

Yeah keep on thinking you can con 17 other sheep into helping you. Nothing ADL drops is worth it, DL drops you would be better off in doing it with 6 to be done faster then fighting 16(17 if the guy you are doing ADL for is a dick) other people over it. Then out of those 17 others helping you how many have relic them selfs? If one has on then you are now over 10 kils you have to do and for each person you can add 5 to 7 kills if RNG doesn't crap on you too. You give you friends to much credit more so if they have a relic too.

[Insaniac]

All ideas have fault, otherwise they would be unconditionally the right answer. The idea has merit, please consider this constructive criticism. First, given the nature of these weapons I don't think they would ever close off Stage 2. Branching is a great idea but, there are two things I am nearly sure SE is going for. First, I'm fairly sure they wish to maintain a once a day limit as a means to balance casual and hardcore. In other words prevent a player playing 18 hours a day from having a major advantage over someone who plays 3. Second, and this I'm sure of, they want to maintain the Relic story meaning a trial to grant it power would need to have some origin with dynamis, or the crystal war era. Adjust the conditions to something related to one of the two and it could work. One path faster in a group, one designed for a small team.



1) There is no limit to the amount of time anyone can spend on either of the other weapon types per day so for these trials that is out the window.

2) The first 6 relic trials took place outside of dynamis so that is also out.

[Zinato]

I ment specifically Relic, empyrean never had any limit and neither did mythic (outside prequests)

As far as prior trials that is correct, again this apply to only the 99 trial as it unlock the weapons true potential (On the assumption Afterglow is done in the same method as 99 only more) Mythic involves the strongest current ToAU enemy, Empyrean involves the strongest creatures of the Void. (A place on the other side of Atomos just like Abyssea)

[Insaniac]

I ment specifically Relic, empyrean never had any limit and neither did mythic (outside prequests)

As far as prior trials that is correct, again this apply to only the 99 trial as it unlock the weapons true potential (On the assumption Afterglow is done in the same method as 99 only more) Mythic involves the strongest current ToAU enemy, Empyrean involves the strongest creatures of the Void. (A place on the other side of Atomos just like Abyssea)I know you were talking about relics only but if they aren't concerned with limiting the effort you can put forth for the others why would that be a concern with relics when relics are the most abundant?

Mythics involves killing a level 75 content NM, Emps involve spamming dynamis for gil and camping bazaars. Consistency is a cop out. I would welcome a 30 day "perform 10k relic WS" trial instead of a 5 day "fuck your friends" trial or a 100 day "I'm a nice guy so I will help you now" trial. If consistency is a concern add a "10k WS" trial branch for all 3. Plenty of people would still do the item requirement stage 1s just to be done faster.

[Zinato]

In the end its an irrelevant point, because in the end no matter what they do players will find a way around the trial so long as the item is purchasable. I think the only constant issue right now is ADL is far stronger then the other 2/3 required NMs for the other super weapons, so it either has to be changed to a new NM (only one so that everyone does the same fight, not just filter to the easiest NM that offers the drop) or there needs to be greater compensation for the other 17 players involved. Even at 1 required drop from ADL, those not lucky enough to have 18 people in their LS are basically being told you are SoL.

[Nynja]

In the end its an irrelevant point, because in the end no matter what they do players will find a way around the trial so long as the item is purchasable.

Except ADL's item will pretty much never be purchasable...the only people who will be killing it are people who are gonna bite the bullet and concede to SE's retarded trial requirement. Once they're done, they're done lol.

[Atoreis]

LOL man I wasn't going to say anything earlier.

1000 to 20, ppl still whine.

20 to 5, people still crying?

http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg




I have an idea, SE should just make an NPC where you can trade your 95 relic and he'll give you the 99 version w/ afterglow in exchange

Ppl will then cry that they cant find this NPC...

[Zinato]

Sorry, misunderstanding I was telling Insaniac we were basically discussing nothing since what the reasoning behind the choice of where merrow drops has nothing to do with the fact that ADL is not suitable.

As far as that second comment, so long as players have gil, there will always be those willing to throw gil around to get what they want. I wouldn't put it past players to offer 1-2m per player who go on a successful ADL run effectively making the final stage cost ~100-200m. With enough money players will buy anything and those lucky enough to have lots of gil often ruin it for others around them. personally, I have very little respect for players who buy r/x equipment or r/x trial items.

[Helel]

Let's say you can somehow magically manage to only get 5 people that need the relic upgrade to help you (the other 2 parties are just people helping out). 6*5 = 30 runs of dynamis * 2.5m lost per run = 75m lost. I see people selling rift items for a max of 1m each (which is way overpriced imo). Empyreans are not harder to upgrade than relics. Are the devs seriously this delusional?

[Kysaiana]

The obvious solution is to just add primeval brews to Dynamis. I've never fought ADL but it seems he's disproportionately difficult to win consistently compared to PW and the 2 T6s, and that is the biggest complaint relic holders have. 5 seems like a reasonable number to collect. Sure linkshells with tons of relics will have to spend a lot of time in dynamis, but let's face it, there's crap all left to do in this game anyway. It just sucks that it's apparently a gamble if you'll even win after you extend the effort to pop ADL.

I'll probably be stuck at 90 Masamune forever at the rate I'm collecting HMPs. Sure I could spend weeks in abyssea grinding out crour to convert to 150+ million gil to buy all the plates, but it doesn't seem worth the effort for one trial which is just a stepping stone to the final trial. Even if people sold riftdross/cinder for 1 mil gil each, the final trial would still be less than half the cost of the 95 trial...

So yeah, these trials are a pain the in butt and I'd rather just grind out ws kills despite it's soul crushing dullness. What can you do? I guess keep whining and hopefully it won't blow up in your faces.

[Natasha]

All ideas have fault, otherwise they would be unconditionally the right answer. The idea has merit, please consider this constructive criticism. First, given the nature of these weapons I don't think they would ever close off Stage 2. Branching is a great idea but, there are two things I am nearly sure SE is going for. First, I'm fairly sure they wish to maintain a once a day limit as a means to balance casual and hardcore. In other words prevent a player playing 18 hours a day from having a major advantage over someone who plays 3. Second, and this I'm sure of, they want to maintain the Relic story meaning a trial to grant it power would need to have some origin with dynamis, or the crystal war era. Adjust the conditions to something related to one of the two and it could work. One path faster in a group, one designed for a small team.

Well, I was just speaking of it in concept... the specifics aren't 'as' important to me excepting the time gate for casual vs. hardcore. That idea is the same as the one used in the 'fatigue' system in ffxiv which was eventually abolished and for good reason.

[Atoreis]

Some facts:

NO, Empyrean never meant to be easier to make than relic or mythic
NO, 99 trial is not the only part of doing a 99 relic/mythic/empyrean
YES, 99 trial arent equally hard because they are based on how hard is to get 95 version

Mythic starts as hardcore then it goes to easy mode with trials
Relic starts with medium hard then go easy then its medium hard again
Empyrean starts easily then it goes to hard mode and then to medium mode

YES, all you do is whine, whine and whine when devs has already given you easiest option possible compared to what was planned on start

MAJORITY word used by Camato about ppl will got 99 meant MAJORITY of ppl who have 95 and want 99 not majority of all players.

[Alerith]

...

Did this thread just magically re-appear again?

[Tamoa]

...

Did this thread just magically re-appear again?

Hahahaha yes it did!

[Dreamin]

Yes it appears that they have restored this thread from the nuke pile.

I think SE should be praised in the fact that they have realized a mistake and reversed itself and bringing this thread back.

[wish12oz]

Probably got tired of the 10 new threads per hour being created.

[Urteil]

SE reversing a decision?

Gentlemen never do such things!

[Seriha]

Might've been some specific post nuking while it was invisible to cut down on quotes and need to re-edit them out.

[Jhanaka]

Hello Folks!

We are sorry that this thread disappeared for a few hours; we received some reports of abuse so we had to review the thread to be sure that the rules were being followed and, regrettably, this can take some time. Instead of risking the entire thread being lost, due to one or two people, we removed the ability to post on the thread until we could remove the offending posts. As this thread is over 600 posts long, this review took longer than expected.

Please feel free to continue with your debate but please keep the rules and policies in mind so we do not have to permanently close an active thread.

Thank you for your understanding.

-Senior Game Master Jhanaka

[Karbuncle]

Do you chose your names or are they chosen for you.

its a totally legitimate question!

[Jhanaka]

Hello!

We all choose our own names. =) I have had this nick for 7 years. This is all I shall post. Be well, my friends!

-SGM Jhanaka

[Nala]

I'm not sure what's more impressive, your cleverness or your Dragonball picture collection.

I think thats more due to who he really is, Veggeto of fairy prior to our server merge.

[Karbuncle]

Hello!

We all choose our own names. =) I have had this nick for 7 years. This is all I shall post. Be well, my friends!

-SGM Jhanaka

Thats pretty cool, 7 Years...

Thank you for the response :D

[Kluaf]

Greetings.
Some of you have already posted the information that was on the Japanese forums, but here it is again, officially.
Required number of items
As a result of adjustments to match the trial difficulty, the below are the current numbers that are planned for the stage 1 version of the weapon upgrades.

Relic Weapons: 5 items
Mythic Weapons: 3 items
Empyrean Weapons: 60 items


※As we are currently carefully looking into the number of items required for stage 2, we will let you know the specifics once the information is available.

Well sure it a big drop from imaginary number they had used but they also stated it was just a figure they used NOT the actual number needed. So no one should be jumping for joy or even being thankful as it was just a random number "supposedly".

Neways I wouls much rather have a way higher number of kills for the trials instead of a few items needed. And also so no hard feelings have the drops that was needed be worth say 5 kills. As far as the afterglow its more of a status symbol than anything else. But i dont know to many that are happy with just getting their Raja Ring and saying ah i dont care bout finishing the last 5 missions...

On a kinda side note obtaining the base weapons for these trials empys are pretty easy and now so are relics just takes a little time for either and can be solo'd. In my opinion relics are going to take a little more time to do. But Mythic weapons are insane to obtain and there is NO WAY of obtaining soloing at all. And yet you can hardly say any of them are better than the other. I dont have a mythic it would be nice but to me thats a slap in the face to people who have taken the time to do it!!!

[Arkanethered]

Jhanaka is an old school GM... Check out that Tiamat action.

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n221/arkanethered/TiaGM.jpg

[macross]

Mythic will be the easiest trial to finish, then relic, then empy. You could probably do all 3 pw in one day once they patch the new zeni ammounts.

[Insaniac]

On an individual basis taking nothing else into account you are right. If no one ever had trouble building an ADL alliance and there weren't 10x as many relics as mythics and 95 emps combined then there wouldn't be much of a problem.

[Rezeak]

I would consider Emps easier than Relics since it's easy to fight the VW NM to the point i would easily do the emp trail instead of the relic.

[SpankWustler]

We all choose our own names.

GM Queepel just became my hero.

[Soidisant]

Yet, with your busy schedule, you have a relic? So unless you're stupidly rich, you've been doing Dynamis for what, four months, every day? Which is about the time you'll have to invest in it again. Only this time, you won't just complete your own relic, but also all other 14 relics in your LS (with some luck).

As I said, I just don't think it's unreasonable, compared to before.

I have 2. One from old school Dyna and one from after Dyna changes. Neither involved 4 months of daily Dynamis farming though.

Apoc was done Dec 2008 - Mar 2009 including like ~10 Dyna runs
Ragna was all done in Dec 2011 with just 2 Dyna runs (Attestation and Fragment)

Point being that not every Relic was done recently and involved farming Dyna daily for 4 months. A lot were done pre-changes and even after changes it doesn't mean people spent 2 hours a day in Dyna for 4 months.

Personally I do Dyna once a week and that's only because it's an LS event. No way could I drag myself in there daily for any sort of prolonged period of time. If we did Dynamis daily, it means we'd have to scrap all other LS events as the majority of the LS works during the day. Plus, if the LS does do ADL then it's far more likely we'd sell the Marrow (with it offered to LS members at 75% cost) and then split the gil equally among attending members so that non-relic holders in the LS aren't being unfairly treated.

Like I said though, 5 is potentially reasonable. I'll probably get Apoc to 99 and leave Ragna at 95. I imagine my wife will do Brav or Spharai to 99 and leave the other plus Gjallar at 95. The fact that we think we can get 1 each to 99 even with limited playtime means it's at least semi-reasonable.

I just hope that at the very least they add multiple ??? for the NM's in Xarc otherwise congestion is going to be a huge problem. Anything else after that would be a bonus.

[Ravenmore]

News flash Arcon people might have been working on relic way longer then the recent changes. Not to mention that 75 relics are a few years old so some one could have started one 5 or 6 years ago when they could spend most of the day on FF11. You are about as out of touch as the dev team.

[Arcon]

News flash Arcon people might have been working on relic way longer then the recent changes. Not to mention that 75 relics are a few years old so some one could have started one 5 or 6 years ago when they could spend most of the day on FF11. You are about as out of touch as the dev team.

You're referencing "5 or 6" year old content, which is responsible for the vanishing minority of current relics in circulation and you're calling me out of touch? Way to make your case. And even considering old Dynamis, you mean to tell me you were able to farm currency for up to a year for just one single relic with an entire linkshell, yet now you can't invest 10 hours into it?

All my arguments still hold. In case you didn't read my post, I did add the clause "unless you're stupidly rich", which, reading over his post, seems to apply in his case. And in which case he should also be able to afford to buy the marrow (even from his LS, since he mentions they plan on doing it).

So, why exactly am I out of touch (with whatever you claim I am out of touch of)?

[Unctgtg]

Like I have stated before, this trial needs to be changed from 5 to kills or drop off regular DL.

The playerbase has spoken.

[Ravenmore]

You're referencing "5 or 6" year old content, which is responsible for the vanishing minority of current relics in circulation and you're calling me out of touch? Way to make your case. And even considering old Dynamis, you mean to tell me you were able to farm currency for up to a year for just one single relic with an entire linkshell, yet now you can't invest 10 hours into it?

All my arguments still hold. In case you didn't read my post, I did add the clause "unless you're stupidly rich", which, reading over his post, seems to apply in his case. And in which case he should also be able to afford to buy the marrow (even from his LS, since he mentions they plan on doing it).

So, why exactly am I out of touch (with whatever you claim I am out of touch of)?

When you spread the cost out over 5 years is it that hard to think it couldn't be done. Or how about the very fact that 5 or 6 years ago people might not have had the families or jobs to take up time they could give to FF11. It did not take a whole LS a year to finish one relic. You have no clue and are just as out of touch with the base as SE.

[Soidisant]

If by stupidly rich, you mean 2.3m gil then yes I am stupidly rich.

Apoc was funded by people being stupid (i.e. I bought currency and resold it for more until I had enough to finish. So mostly done AFK)
Ragna was funded by 3 people pooling gil for like 3 weeks (all 3 people got Relics not just me, we just took turns)

At the minute I have nothing to really shoot for so I just idle around the 2-4m pending on what VW sellables I get.

For 99 trials I'll probably have to find 150m ish if I buy it from the LS but who knows what Marrow will sell for. Currently 40m on Asura.

[Ravenmore]

If by stupidly rich, you mean 2.3m gil then yes I am stupidly rich.

Apoc was funded by people being stupid (i.e. I bought currency and resold it for more until I had enough to finish. So mostly done AFK)
Ragna was funded by 3 people pooling gil for like 3 weeks (all 3 people got Relics not just me, we just took turns)

At the minute I have nothing to really shoot for so I just idle around the 2-4m pending on what VW sellables I get.

For 99 trials I'll probably have to find 150m ish if I buy it from the LS but who knows what Marrow will sell for. Currently 40m on Asura.

Only thing with buying is will the supply be there. I still feel 40 mil might still be on the low side. What people are seeing now might be very old stocks. Now think for a sec you know some one drop them thinking they worthless way back when ADL was put in.

[Soidisant]

Well I'd arrange some sort of deal with the LS rather than going outside the LS unless I absolutely had to. Either buy it off the LS at discount cost if acquired through LS events. Or farm the sets up myself and then offer the choice of drops or gil to come along and help me as compensation for missing out on their daily Dyna.

Honestly, most would probably do it for free if it was just 1-2 relics. Although with how many relics we have in the LS, it's going to get pretty old, pretty fast for those without relics. That being said, if all they have to do is roll up to ADL, kill and then leave then they may be willing to do it for free/chance at drops even for quite a lot of relics.

That 40m is one that has cropped up since the announced trials. There was one for 30m earlier in the week too. I agree that they are more likely to rise in price than drop.

[SpankWustler]

Only thing with buying is will the supply be there. I still feel 40 mil might still be on the low side. What people are seeing now might be very old stocks. Now think for a sec you know some one drop them thinking they worthless way back when ADL was put in.

Umbral Marrow was added relatively recently, around the time the Development Bros started mulling over what the level 99 trials would be.

Edit: I do agree they're more likely to increase in price than decrease, though.

[Ravenmore]

Well I'd arrange some sort of deal with the LS rather than going outside the LS unless I absolutely had to. Either buy it off the LS at discount cost if acquired through LS events. Or farm the sets up myself and then offer the choice of drops or gil to come along and help me as compensation for missing out on their daily Dyna.

Honestly, most would probably do it for free if it was just 1-2 relics. Although with how many relics we have in the LS, it's going to get pretty old, pretty fast for those without relics. That being said, if all they have to do is roll up to ADL, kill and then leave then they may be willing to do it for free/chance at drops even for quite a lot of relics.

That 40m is one that has cropped up since the announced trials. There was one for 30m earlier in the week too. I agree that they are more likely to rise in price than drop.

I could see that and merc LSes doing it for 20 to 30 mil up front if you get the drop or not.

Also my bad I thought he had it from the start and they added a new item to PW. Still not enough reason to get people to kill it. If they are dead set on this they need to make it more attractive to the helpers if only by adding new gear and items to ADL and prep-pop NMs.

[Arcon]

When you spread the cost out over 5 years is it that hard to think it couldn't be done. Or how about the very fact that 5 or 6 years ago people might not have had the families or jobs to take up time they could give to FF11. It did not take a whole LS a year to finish one relic. You have no clue and are just as out of touch with the base as SE.

With what base? The playerbase? I'm part of the playerbase you dimwit. I play the game, I do Dynamis and I did so twice a week for years in old Dynamis and I've witnessed several relics being built in the process, for friends and LS mates. No it's not hard to do if you spread the cost out over five years, but who has done that? Most people, even before Neodynamis, simply spammed Dynamis, sponsored runs or lead runs with their endgame shells for people to finish relics. The other option was to buy currency. Aside from buying or farming, there is no alternative.

What kind of arguments are you making? Jobs, families? Yes, that means less time to play. Which is still way more than enough to get this trial done. 10 Dynamis runs per relic. Is that really too much to ask? I know several relic holders, all of whom are looking forward to their 99 relic in a month or two. Sure, if you're in a badass and very active endgame LS with 30 relics, it may take up to a year (if they're very unlucky) to finish, and again I ask you, is that too much to ask for 30 finished relic weapons? That's not a year of hardcore non-stop gaming, but one year of two-hour long Dynamis runs that will yield 30 of the best weapons in the entire game. And you think that's not good enough?

Sure, I'd love if it was killshots. Hell, I think even 1 killshot is enough to proof that you're able to defeat him, and I definitely wouldn't mind a trial like that either. But the reality is that the currently proposed trial is far from unfair. If you're complaining about this you're just way too spoiled from Abyssea or Neodynamis.


Apoc was funded by people being stupid (i.e. I bought currency and resold it for more until I had enough to finish. So mostly done AFK)
Ragna was funded by 3 people pooling gil for like 3 weeks (all 3 people got Relics not just me, we just took turns)

Don't get me wrong, that wasn't a jab at you. I used to have over 70M worth of currency, all procured through reselling in bazaars (I was working on a Bravura pre-Abyssea). But that also counts as money. Money and items (and services) are interchangeable, at varying rates. The money you made from reselling to buy more currency has made you stupidly rich (doesn't imply you're stupid, as I said, I was doing the exact same thing), which, in turn, allowed you to buy a relic. And going by what you said in the last two posts you don't seem to have a problem with buying anyway.

[Vold]

20 drops from ADL is not reasonable. 5 is not reasonable. Yet some people want to think that it is. Why is that? Because it's 5 and not 20? It wasn't unreasonable because it was 20. It was unreasonable because it was ADL. If you say 5 is reasonable then 20 is reasonable. Period.

The only way this trial is ever going to work out is A)add drops to ADL that people care about so it seems less of a bitch to do which can include multiple of the relic item, and or B)drop is added to the pools of all other Dynamis NMs with various drop rates to fit the NMs. That's how you get the majority of relic holders to LIKELY finish the trial, because it certainly will never happen with things as is. But if you want unlikely then any number of ADL drops or kills is perfect for the trial so that the players that do get past it can stand up there on the bow of the airship during mid flight and scream "I'm the king of the worrrrrld!" to impress the lv23 whm Mithra that's probably a manthra and an alternative character of an already existing veteran.

[Ravenmore]

So you know 10 relic owners who have 17 people willing to slave away at their relics for little to no gain or are they going to pay the other 17 people. They damn sure not gioing together if they think they will have theirs in a month. Yes its is to much to ask for with a 10 year old game. FF11 is not aging as well as EQ/EQ2 those games were given meaningful upgrades and content expansion that FF11 has not been given. There is the looming fact that if FF14 pulls something out of it ashes then guess what FF11 will get even less content, if it goes down in a gaint ball of flames then FF11 with stop getting content while SE stops the bleeding. You also refuse to see SE is a company in trouble, from forces beyond its control to and not learning from mistakes of the past. I wonder which company they will merge with next to save thier selfs.

[Unctgtg]

Arcon do u even have a R/M/E?

[Soidisant]

20 drops from ADL is not reasonable. 5 is not reasonable. Yet some people want to think that it is. Why is that? Because it's 5 and not 20? It wasn't unreasonable because it was 20. It was unreasonable because it was ADL. If you say 5 is reasonable then 20 is reasonable. Period.


I think it's just a time:reward ratio for most.

If I farmed the pops, I could probably get people to come along and kill ADL 5 times without much issue. It would be far more difficult to get people to do it 20 times though.

Likewise, people would be far less likely to merc it if it required 20 items. There will be far more people willing to pay 150-200m than 600-800m. So Umbral Marrow price would either have to be reduced (meaning less people willing to merc it) or there would be far less buyers (which again means less people actively mercing kills).

Could the trial be easier or more convenient? Absolutely and I'm sure every Relic holder would prefer it be was.

However, 5 is more reasonable to some people than 20 because 5 seems doable to them whereas 20 was not. At 20, no way would I even attempt to do it. At 5 items, I'll probably attempt to do 1 of my Relics.

[Unctgtg]

I would prefer it to drop off Regular Dynamis Lord. That way THE MAJORITY can get it.

[Soidisant]

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer it was far easier too. I'm not exactly thrilled at the prospect of spamming ADL's for the foreseeable future.

I'm just explaining why 20 is unreasonable to some people, whilst 5 seems reasonable.

[Unctgtg]

Well the Community doesn't want ADL so lets not even talk about it. I want Dynamis Lord.

[Soidisant]

If it was Dynamis Lord it would need the item amount increasing. 5 DL's would be far too easy in comparison to Mythics/Empyreans.

[Unctgtg]

I would take 20 from Old DL

[Arcon]

Ugh, post got deleted... I'll try to keep it a bit shorter this time.


20 drops from ADL is not reasonable. 5 is not reasonable. Yet some people want to think that it is. Why is that? Because it's 5 and not 20? It wasn't unreasonable because it was 20. It was unreasonable because it was ADL. If you say 5 is reasonable then 20 is reasonable. Period.

Wrong, period. 5 is four times less than 20. Sad that I even have to spell it out like that, but for big LS that means 1 year vs. 4 years. You really think there's no difference?


So you know 10 relic owners who have 17 people willing to slave away at their relics for little to no gain or are they going to pay the other 17 people.

Yes. Only what you call "slave away" I call teamwork. Linkshells, ever heard of the concept? People working together to achieve a goal they couldn't on their own. Having people with Lv99 relics benefits everyone in the LS. That is the idea. I'm sure it sounds foreign to you, because people always want immediate gains for themselves. It's called being selfish.


Yes its is to much to ask for with a 10 year old game.

What the hell does the age have to do with it at all?


Arcon do u even have a R/M/E?

Yes, and working on more, although that is completely irrelevant. If I didn't have one, you think my opinion wouldn't matter? Or you think my judgment was somehow clouded?

It's very simple, it's a matter of perspective. Most people I argue with on here come from a different mindset, a different environment. Apparently, there's not many on here who have played with people for a purpose other than personal gain. People even asking stuff like "Who would help you with it?" completely baffle me, because the answer to that question seems obvious: your friends. Plenty of times we've had to gather an entire LS for stuff only a few people needed (Ouryu runs, Bahamut runs, KS99, relic NMs, ZNMs, sea/sky), others just willingly came along to help. Personally I find it hard to understand why someone wouldn't help their LS members. Sure, it may be annoying for a while, but in the end you're helping a friend (completely disregarding the fact that effectively you're helping yourself as well).

I came to realize (this isn't the only argument of this kind I've had with people on here) that we simply come from a different environment. Other people apparently had worse experiences than myself. I find it hard to imagine, though, that that extends to the majority of the people on the game. No one I know complained about 5 ADL items, and I really can't see why one would. While there would be easier solutions, I can't in good conscience call this unreasonable.

[Nynja]

If it was Dynamis Lord it would need the item amount increasing. 5 DL's would be far too easy in comparison to Mythics/Empyreans.

except 1 person cant exactly kill 5 DL's solo, its not exactly a pushover if you're alone. You'd also have to consider the bottleneck of this: theres 15 places to get DL pop items, which have to be lottery spawned, in a time constraint area, and then theres only one DL ???

20 umbral marrows where 1 can drop from regular DL, and a pouch of sorts containing 5-15 from ADL so larger groups can plow through shit. OK!

[Staren]

Just my two cents but it seems they're really just trying to balance out total time taken for each type of endgame weapon.

Mythics 450-600 mil gil worth of alexandrite + insane amounts of other stuff > ws trials > 3 pandemonium drops
so the biggest crash and time sync for a mythic is the first step 50 weeks of einerjar farming 450-600mil worth of alexandrite

Empyreans a week of trial nms + 50 nm items + 50 nm items > 75 items + 1500 hmps > 60 rift items
The heavy metal plates are 150mil of items the 60 rift items make up for the difference between mythics and empyreans and all of these items are buyable unlike ichor from einerbibble

Relics 150 mil-ish worth of coins > ws trials > 5 arch dl items

I don't know how balanced it is just yet but it would seem there will be alot more finished relics before empyreans or mythics.

[Brolic]

I would take 20 from Old DL

5 adl drop is still potential 20 adl kills if you have bad luck with clones. that's still my big issue with this

[Nynja]

Just my two cents but it seems they're really just trying to balance out total time taken for each type of endgame weapon.

Mythics 450-600 mil gil worth of alexandrite + insane amounts of other stuff > ws trials > 3 pandemonium drops
so the biggest crash and time sync for a mythic is the first step 50 weeks of einerjar farming 450-600mil worth of alexandrite

If they were trying to balance out the time relation, then mythics should just talk to paparoon, shove their weapon up his rear, and it comes out lv99...

and emps are easy >.> you can say what you want about how the 1500 hmp is a huge timesink, but how many 95 emps have been put out since sep 20 (when plates were added?)

[Staren]

If they were trying to balance out the time relation, then mythics should just talk to paparoon, shove their weapon up his rear, and it comes out lv99...

and emps are easy >.> you can say what you want about how the 1500 hmp is a huge timesink, but how many 95 emps have been put out since sep 20 (when plates were added?)

Not trying to say mythics are easy we've been working on once since september and she'll be done with einerjar in april which is when we'll finally be completely done with it. Just saying they're trying to balance it all out the best they can and maybe new nyzul/salvage will help.

[Nynja]

Presuming all you're doing for alex is farming them, because the market is sooooo sparse, and presuming you're strictly doing SS or arra for guaranteed results (my average in those 2 areas is 125, cotton and linen factored in), 30000/125 = 240 days.
Thats not factoring in Captain and redoing all your assaults, which is 100 days presuming 100% success rate, though this can be done on the side while you're farming alex. But then you need your 150,000 tokens, which cant be done on the side as your assault since they both require tags. I'm not really sure how to calculate token reward for going more than 5 levels, its not on the wiki...lets just presume you're always given armband and you have never spent tokens getting in. 22,653 Tokens your first time around, because you needed to get your runic key (20 days), and you're still missing 1271347 tokens. At 1501 tokens rewarded per 95-100, thats an extra 85 days. So you're looking at ~200 days of assaulting as well.

Theres still einherjar ampoules as well...and the kings, but thats meh.


In that time you can build every emp and ~6 relics.

[Staren]

Presuming all you're doing for alex is farming them, because the market is sooooo sparse, and presuming you're strictly doing SS or arra for guaranteed results (my average in those 2 areas is 125, cotton and linen factored in), 30000/125 = 240 days.
Thats not factoring in Captain and redoing all your assaults, which is 100 days presuming 100% success rate, though this can be done on the side while you're farming alex. But then you need your 150,000 tokens, which cant be done on the side as your assault since they both require tags. I'm not really sure how to calculate token reward for going more than 5 levels, its not on the wiki...lets just presume you're always given armband and you have never spent tokens getting in. 22,653 Tokens your first time around, because you needed to get your runic key (20 days), and you're still missing 1271347 tokens. At 1501 tokens rewarded per 95-100, thats an extra 85 days. So you're looking at ~200 days of assaulting as well.

Theres still einherjar ampoules as well...and the kings, but thats meh.


In that time you can build every emp and ~6 relics.

You can buy alexandrite like we've done thus the 450mil to 600 mil price tag. We'll be done with alex in 20 days and we started in september that's what 5 months to farm the gil/alexandrite. You get about 4k tokens with leader per run doing 10 floors a run with 3 people which is a little over a month. Captain takes 50 days max especially now that you're 99. Redoing assaults takes 50 days max. Ichor is really the only issue if you havent done einerbibble before. Kings really were a joke. Building a PW pop took 1 week with three people. Its not that hard. I dont know how many relics and empys we can make in 50 weeks but I would be interested to see. Still 11 and a half months is pretty rough that's for sure. Luckily for us we did do einerbibble off and on so our member already had a decent chunk of ichor stored up.

[Soidisant]

except 1 person cant exactly kill 5 DL's solo, its not exactly a pushover if you're alone. You'd also have to consider the bottleneck of this: theres 15 places to get DL pop items, which have to be lottery spawned, in a time constraint area, and then theres only one DL ???

20 umbral marrows where 1 can drop from regular DL, and a pouch of sorts containing 5-15 from ADL so larger groups can plow through shit. OK!


You can't solo 3 PW's. You can't solo Rex or Ig-Alima. Hell, you can't solo Animated Weapons or Attestation NM's.

Yes there would be a bottleneck but the items would also be available to buy for far cheaper too.

[Nynja]

You can't solo 3 PW's.

You can do all the leg work solo though >.> rifts are shoutable content since they do reward all participants with items they probably want. Either way, you can profit off rex/alima by trading in jade cells for extra cruor, on top of the misc garbage, as well as theres no reason to believe rifts wont drop off VW4.

The point is for ADL you're basically raping 17 other people for a minimum of 10 hours of their time, whereas for PW its maybe 2 hours tops.


Captain takes 50 days max especially now that you're 99. Redoing assaults takes 50 days max.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Agent_Rescue
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Orichalcum_Survey
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Lebros_Supplies
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Counting_Sheep
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Supplies_Recovery (debatable)
http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Treasure_Retrieval

Care to elaborate how level 99 has any impact on success rate of these assaults compared to level 75? I'm really curious how being level 99 makes mining up oricalcum ore any easier.

[Staren]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Agent_Rescue
I dont know are you unable to get the mechanic down or read the strat? Went 1/1 on this both times we did it. Maybe its because we know how to tp feed because some of us leveled blue mage but its not that hard.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Orichalcum_Survey
You should be able to kill the worms faster so you can keep mining more. Again went 1/1 on this both times we did it.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Lebros_Supplies
This is your only true complaint. We did it with 3 people and it is rough but with the movement speed + available at 95+ not to mention sprint shoes stacking on movement speed + gear. You can do this but seriously if its that much trouble get a shout group together and communicate well it goes much faster.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Counting_Sheep
You only need 1 sheep to win this. Again not that hard read the strat it is ridiculously easy to get only one sheep if you play smart. You should have been able to do this 1/1 at 95

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Supplies_Recovery (debatable)
At 95 my monk and a blue mage and a whm killed all buy one imp before the npcs could get to them.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Treasure_Retrieval
again seriously you only need 1 gem. This isnt hard read the strategy play harder.

Overall more dps and faster movement speed at 90+ makes these fights ridiculously easy. With the exception of lebros supplies.

[Nynja]

lol...thats all I gotta say. "becuz I went 1/1, it means its easy", I guess that means you're a pretty bad player if you set the standards that low.

Agent Rescue has nothing to with skill if the non-nin mamools just refuse to do weapon toss. Feed all the TP you want, but it comes down to random number generator, and if random number generator says: firespit, warm up, fire spit, warm up, warm up, rushing drub, warm up, firespit...too bad so sad. Thats not skill

"You should be able to kill the worms faster so you can keep mining more. Again went 1/1 on this both times we did it. "
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
Your pickaxe breaks (FKKKKKKKKKKK I HAVE TO RUN ALL THE WAY AROUND NOW)
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You dig up a pebble!
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You dig up a zinc ore!
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
Your pickaxe breaks.

Once again, wheres the skill in this. The worms arent a deterrent at all.


"You only need 1 sheep to win this. Again not that hard read the strat it is ridiculously easy to get only one sheep if you play smart. You should have been able to do this 1/1 at 95"
Once again, level has NOTHING to do with this, I can go 1/1 at lvl 1. Doesnt change the fact that if I keep mining up garbage or bronze coins, I'm going to lose.

"Overall more dps and faster movement speed at 90+ makes these fights ridiculously easy. With the exception of lebros supplies. "
all the above assaults I mentioned have almost nothing to do with fighting. Movement speed is available at level 1 with sprinter shoes...

[Staren]

lol...thats all I gotta say. "becuz I went 1/1, it means its easy", I guess that means you're a pretty bad player if you set the standards that low.

Agent Rescue has nothing to with skill if the non-nin mamools just refuse to do weapon toss. Feed all the TP you want, but it comes down to random number generator, and if random number generator says: firespit, warm up, fire spit, warm up, warm up, rushing drub, warm up, firespit...too bad so sad. Thats not skill

"You should be able to kill the worms faster so you can keep mining more. Again went 1/1 on this both times we did it. "
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
Your pickaxe breaks (FKKKKKKKKKKK I HAVE TO RUN ALL THE WAY AROUND NOW)
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You dig up a pebble!
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You dig up a zinc ore!
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
You mine nothing.
Your pickaxe breaks.

Once again, wheres the skill in this. The worms arent a deterrent at all.


"You only need 1 sheep to win this. Again not that hard read the strat it is ridiculously easy to get only one sheep if you play smart. You should have been able to do this 1/1 at 95"
Once again, level has NOTHING to do with this, I can go 1/1 at lvl 1. Doesnt change the fact that if I keep mining up garbage or bronze coins, I'm going to lose.

"Overall more dps and faster movement speed at 90+ makes these fights ridiculously easy. With the exception of lebros supplies. "
all the above assaults I mentioned have almost nothing to do with fighting. Movement speed is available at level 1 with sprinter shoes...

Movement speed + sprinters shoes makes movement speed faster and you should have 3 people working on these. Really if you are going to pull the random number generator response on this you're sad. 3 compitent players with movement speed + and sprinters shoes effect on or dancer with chocobo jig and movement speed + can do these. I'm actually a very good player I do realize some things are random but I dont bitch and moan about "random number generators" I'll give you a group not seriously trying can not get captain in 50 days but especially since you CAN bring in 6 people and not just 3 its even sadder. For the tp feed one I don't know what to say for you if you honestly believe you cant do this without luck especially if you can bring 6 people all dual wielding 1 dmg clubs and someone able to cure. It might explain why you have issues altogether. I just think assaults and nyzul are the STUPIDEST things to bitch about out of the mythic quests. I mean while you marked it debatable you seriously listed Supplies Recovery as a possible problem child assault.

[Arcari]

I think the main issue here with the relic trial now is the mob itself. ADL is far too luck based for a trial. As I understand it, he spawns on his own, then splits into 2 when the first dies, and if you picked the wrong clone, it's LOL I WIN YOU LOSE WASTED POPSET! And since the only way to reliably beat him is with 2hour zergs, you only get one shot per run unless you have a bunch of COR mules or something.

So, what SE needs to do is try to remove as much sheer luck out of the equation as possible. Make the fight winnable without 2hours (take away his instant death attacks), make the clones drop marrows as well (consolation prize method), whatever else has been suggested that makes this fight feasible 95% of the time. It probably wouldn't hurt to add the Marrow to normal DL as well, perhaps at ~50% droprate. Of course, congestion is going to be an issue as well (really bad in a zone which you only get 2 hours tops in each day), but SE can always add multiple ???s like they did for the top tier Abyssea NMs.

The required amount of items is fine now, mythic is fine, emp...meh lol. How many 95 emps are even around now? Stupid heavy metal plates...

[Nynja]

So your character has that hidden luck stat, congrats...doesnt change the fact those assaults are 100% luck based.

[Kimble]

How come, when its the person that doesn't have a relic, being forced to help someone with one in a LS, and they want something that benefits them too, its selfish, but the person with the relic, that is forcing something to do something for them that has no benefit to that person, its then called team work?

[Staren]

So your character has that hidden luck stat, congrats...doesnt change the fact those assaults are 100% luck based.
Cuz Supplies Recovery is completely luck based, not like you can position yourself before you pop the mobs and rape them before the npc's get a chance to touch them. That's so luck based. Cuz for Imperial Treasure Retrieval I know how to work with two other people who know how to read a map and communicate so that we all three get items and at least one of us makes it to the treasure chest by telling the others which way the mobs are and knowing aggro range so I dont get caught myself while looking for them. Because an assualt where you're best run you're supposed to get 5 sheep but only need one to win you think SE would make it wholly impossible for you to at least get one with three people all actively working towards it? Cuz I read the strategy and I dodge when a mob uses fire spit or weapon toss and tp feed it with clubs? Congrats to me for my hidden luck stat or as I call it my ability to read wiki.

[Stabbytabby]

Originally I had a long post about things like the maximum number of kills that can practically be done per day, the interference between all the linkshells that will have overlapping event times in each time zone thus reducing ever further the chance that these items will ever be sold for a price not exceeding making another entire relic or two from scratch....and the laughable 'we expect most players will be able to make a stage 1 relic' bit SE fed us. But, then I realized they don't listen to a word we say when it involves reason, logic, or balance. So, time to dazzle them with a storm of bs...

Hey, SE....would it help any if I said I have SAM leveled? I know you love SAM like a mother loves her baby boy. Won't you please think of the SAMs and reduce this trial to something like 5-10,000 ws kills on whatever mob the relic job suck against? Like, undead for Apocalypse (no drains), or Imps for WHMs (silencega).

Just an idea that'll make it easier for your good buddies the SAMs ;)

[Unctgtg]

I really hope and pray that SE does not ignore all these posts all over these boards. If they do, that just shows us one thing, they do not care about it's player base.

[Dreamin]

I really hope and pray that SE does not ignore all these posts all over these boards. If they do, that just shows us one thing, they do not care about it's player base.

You need to follow other threads a lot more often if you think this is a unique thing happening.

BST's threads, SMN threads, VW threads, etc etc. And these are just the recent ones.

[Nynja]

Cuz I read the strategy and I dodge when a mob uses fire spit or weapon toss and tp feed it with clubs?

I actually just bothered reading this garbage...you really think that works? lol this isnt quake 2, you cant circlestrafe

[Scribble]

Please people stop suggesting killshots. You're going to run into the same problem down the line when there are a handful of 95 relics.
Look at the 95 cap fight, anyone who missed the initial wave is still at 95, or quit because they cant find anyone to do the fight.

LB is a joke. People who can't finish it aren't going because they don't have the cookie-cutter group for it. If you have someone with an item, just one, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to get a group together. You're comparing this to ADL? Seriously?


How about ppl that dont want to upg relic and are needed for kill? they wont be rewarded at all.
These people are rewarded by not wasting their time. Why would you go to kill an NM you only have a chance at killing for a smaller chance at an item you could sell for less then you are (almost) guaranteed by farming on your own? If I didn't want to upgrade a relic and didn't want other items from ADL I'd farm elsewhere. Hell, if I did want items from an NM like that I'd probably still pass.

Why spend all day fishing when you could just work to buy fish and have money left over? You might not catch any fish at all and you'll be hungry and broke. People never consider the opportunity costs?

[Nynja]

LB is a joke. People who can't finish it aren't going because they don't have the cookie-cutter group for it. If you have someone with an item, just one, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes to get a group together. You're comparing this to ADL? Seriously?

lrn 2 reed

Im comparing it to the fact the fight is being dumbed down further cuz some ppl r stuck

[Scribble]

lrn 2 reed
I read it again twice, but it still seems like you're comparing LB to ADL.

I agree that a dumbied down LB is ridiculous because it's so easy. The ADL situation is actually complicated enough to deserve it because of the difficulty of the NM compounded by the daily lockout and the fact that only one item drops.

[Natasha]

I agree that a dumbied down LB is ridiculous because it's so easy. The ADL situation is actually complicated enough to deserve it because of the difficulty of the NM compounded by the daily lockout and the fact that only one item drops.

I agree with this, not to mention the high potential for bottleneck and wasting your daily dynamis time fighting to pop. Some have speculated a 3x ??? but honestly .... there is really nothing good about having ADL for this trial.

[Natasha]

No longer in the "hot topics". :(

Still have my fingers crossed in hopes there will be a change to the ADL trial. (not expected but you know)

[Nynja]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Supplies_Recovery (debatable)
At 95 my monk and a blue mage and a whm killed all buy one imp before the npcs could get to them.

You're full of shit...I just tried to 3box this assault. I killed 8/10 imps, and lost the assault with them somehow getting 5 packages to my two. I then did it a second time and got 5/5 packages before they got any.

to say its a skill based assault is a joke

[detlef]

If you killed 8/10 and still lost because they got 5 packages you didn't read the wiki. Any imp they touch is theirs. This is why you position yourself at the top of the cliff and work your way down so you can kill mobs before they even finish with their first. It sounds like the first time you tried, you were fighting the same mobs the NPCs were.

I thought this assault would be a pain in the ass like it was at 75 but it's incredibly easy now.

[Alerith]

Luckily, assaults can be discussed in a thread about that topic.

On topic for this thread:

To be completely fair, there may come a time where a perfect strategy for ADL is formed out and the fight becomes nothing but a minor nuisance. In that case, five items wouldn't be horrible.

However, I don't think we should bank on that fact, because in the event ADL remains a permanent ass, five items per person, per relic is going to be murder on a LS's schedule and members.

[Unctgtg]

Luckily, assaults can be discussed in a thread about that topic.

On topic for this thread:

To be completely fair, there may come a time where a perfect strategy for ADL is formed out and the fight becomes nothing but a minor nuisance. In that case, five items wouldn't be horrible.

However, I don't think we should bank on that fact, because in the event ADL remains a permanent ass, five items per person, per relic is going to be murder on a LS's schedule and members.

Not to mention that most LSs with relics will be hording the pop location. So change it SE.

[Khajit]

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

[Mahoro]

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.

[Greatguardian]

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.

Except opportunity cost is a perfectly good reason to look at something when it's being done for a product rather than for fun. There is a reason many shells did not bother with HNM camping, and no it had nothing to do with bots. It was simply a horrid waste of time after a certain scale. An 18-man HNMLS may be on standby for 3 hours for a shot at 1 Ebody, but another 18-man LS could use those same 3 hours (54 man-hours) to accumulate enough gil to buy 2-3 Ebodies.

[Khajit]

Can't look at everything as opportunity cost. Might as well reduce every event in that fashion. Like in the days a LS came out to camp KB you had 12-18 people just sitting around for hours at a time when it was clear what would happen if D. Ring dropped.
People aren't exactly lining up for sagasingers here and dynamis is a HUGE opportunity cost. This isn't like missing out on a bc20 or a vw run that probably wouldn't drop anyway. This a cumulative loss of 2 mil+ a person x 17 (not counting the person who gets the drops for relic)
per run.

[Mahoro]

People aren't exactly lining up for sagasingers here and dynamis is a HUGE opportunity cost. This isn't like missing out on a bc20 or a vw run that probably wouldn't drop anyway. This a cumulative loss of 2 mil+ a person x 17 (not counting the person who gets the drops for relic)
per run.

I'm not by any means supporting this trial. I don't relish the idea of farming ADL for a year or two down the road for the relicholders in my LS. But as I said, can't boil everything down to opportunity cost because every event you do in the game where someone is standing around to help someone else out (even during average LS event) can be reduced to a gil amount. It's a non-starter argument. It assumes all 17 people would be farming gil if not for the event. It assumes everyone WOULD have entered Dyna that day if not for the relicholders. It assumes NOBODY is farming currency for the ally simultaneously to building an ADL pop. It assumes people aren't after 1 or more Arch boss drops. Simply put, it assumes way too much. Why limit your gil farming to a 2-hour Dyna event? Why not spend every waking moment online farming bee chips? Quick, the time you are posting while waiting for that VW PUG to gather is time you could be farming Tiger King Hides.

When drops for sea torques were terrible and people camped Ix'Drg and some of the more time consuming jailers, an entire LS was lucky to have walked away with one virtue or, worse, nothing. Yet it was done. I hate farming sea, yet as a SH in my LS I helped run sea events because people wanted the gear. And yeah, we did it when it was very clear how the chips would fall in the DKP and only one person would walk away with a Torque (or a Novio, or insert-your-own-drop). Yes, I am aware that the difference between farming sea and entering Dyna is that one isn't "giving up" money by entering sea. See paragraph above though.

Also, GG's points re: HNM camping being a waste of time and product/fun idea are subjective. Objectively, these events were done. We aren't in 2005 here. You are making a value judgment on a known phenomenon that happened years ago. It's a phenomenon I'm glad I wasn't involved in hardcore, but not every shell that camped HNM's would have sold that desired drop to another LS no matter how many manhours you expended to pay its price tag.

[Nynja]

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

didnt kirshy run the numbers on this, back at the 20 ADL drop, on average you'd farm enough currency for half a relic by the time you got all your ADL's done?

[Greatguardian]

Also, GG's points re: HNM camping being a waste of time and product/fun idea are subjective. Objectively, these events were done. We aren't in 2005 here. You are making a value judgment on a known phenomenon that happened years ago. It's a phenomenon I'm glad I wasn't involved in hardcore, but not every shell that camped HNM's would have sold that desired drop to another LS no matter how many manhours you expended to pay its price tag.

Are you being intentionally dense? The point that doing HNMs was a net loss for many shells is an objective stance. The fact that people did it in the first place indicates that they enjoyed the content to some degree, or just didn't know better.

Objectively? Farming gil and buying drops was better for a hell of a lot of stuff. Still is. But unless some people find Arch Dynamis Lord super fun and thrilling and totally worth doing regardless of the drops, you're going to have to weigh people's proclivity towards the event against the opportunity cost they incur by doing it. Every relic taken 95-99 is essentially another 75 Relic that could have been built from scratch.

You're also completely convoluting the issue. It's not a matter of people entering Dynamis or not entering Dynamis. They already entered Dynamis. The opportunity cost being weighed is what they're doing after entering Dynamis. They're there. They have a choice between farming ADL and farming currency. Farming ADL means not farming nearly as much currency. That is a loss.

[Mahoro]

Are you being intentionally dense? The point that doing HNMs was a net loss for many shells is an objective stance. The fact that people did it in the first place indicates that they enjoyed the content to some degree, or just didn't know better.

Or that they did stuff in the game that benefited the one or two over the many, in return for similar favors being done for them or for LS DKP. The fact that the game shifted to the point where you are distilling everything down to its opportunity cost (or more specifically, "how much gil is this time costing me?") says more about player temperament these days than anything else. At this point, it is clear SE isn't changing the trial, likely just the number of drops. I may not like the trial myself, but Hell, I'm willing to give it a go in my own LS.

Regarding the HNM scene being a "net loss", it's still subjective. You are neglecting the argument in my previous post that most HNMLS did not sell the drops they were camping until most, if not all, of their LS was capped on the gear. You are viewing the HNM scene from circa 2007-2008, where LS's affirmatively camped the Kings for the express purpose of making gil from people who wanted to buy the drops. However, back in the early days of Kings, the HNMLS were botting/competing over claims to gear their LS and "wasting" all that time camping because they felt they had no choice. Doing HNM wasn't a "net loss" for these shells because all the farming in the world wouldn't have bought them their E. Bodies. It was the nature of the game. Shells competed fiercely, and some would rather have CFH'd the King or let abjurations hit the floor than dare sell to a competing LS. Marrow won't be any different for those groups that do it. The secondary market will be near-nonexistent as most Marrow generated will stay intra-group. The shells that DO undertake this trial won't consider it a "net loss" because there will likely be no viable market alternative.


Objectively? Farming gil and buying drops was better for a hell of a lot of stuff. Still is. But unless some people find Arch Dynamis Lord super fun and thrilling and totally worth doing regardless of the drops, you're going to have to weigh people's proclivity towards the event against the opportunity cost they incur by doing it. Every relic taken 95-99 is essentially another 75 Relic that could have been built from scratch.

Sure, a Relic that will never be 99 if nobody ever actually does this trial. I am not denying the statistics that you could make another 75 Relic for the time and manpower involved in making a 99 Relic, but if we are really comparing timesinks here, why upgrade ANY weapon? Might as well compare the time and manpower hours involved in getting an Empy to 90 to the time it would take another Empy to be built from scratch for the people who help you, or other things in-game they could be doing WHILE helping you. I actually agree with you that people will weigh their proclivity toward the event against its downsides. Ultimately, I feel that SE misrepresented this trial to their playerbase since a majority of the 95 Relicholders will not finish this.


You're also completely convoluting the issue. It's not a matter of people entering Dynamis or not entering Dynamis. They already entered Dynamis. The opportunity cost being weighed is what they're doing after entering Dynamis. They're there. They have a choice between farming ADL and farming currency. Farming ADL means not farming nearly as much currency. That is a loss.

Again, assumes those are the only two goals for someone entering Dynamis, or that they care about hardcore farming currency. I'm not convoluting the issue, I'm pointing out assumptions inherent in the argument that 17 other people are "wasting" 2 mill. Perhaps 4-5 of the people in the ally are relicholders who want to lot Marrow. Perhaps another 3-4 people are helpers who don't step into Dynamis regularly and are only doing so because they get DKP for a LS event. Perhaps another 1-2 people want a chance to lot on Sagasinger. You are looking at everything in terms of pure gil loss, and declaring the event DOA because it is literally taking gil out of your pocket. And that's fine for your goals. I wouldn't force those people in my LS to come on an ADL run. I am saying that if everybody viewed every event in the game through that lens, there would be no "utility" to doing most things when they could just be spending every waking moment in game farming gil. But some activities are done for gear, not gil.

[Insaniac]

presuming a large ls of 18 starts killing using all 18 to lower the chance of wipe about how many days would it take for it to boil down to losing entirely new relics just attempting the thing? It seems like if the entire group went and farmed currency for one person they could make a relic or close to one before the trial even finishes.

Using conservative estimates and assuming people duo farm instead of solo since not everyone has a solo job leveled, 18 people could farm enough currency for a new relic in about 8 days. One day longer than it would take to finish the ADL trial assuming a 75% win rate.

Conservative
9 groups of 2 x 200 currency = 1800 currency per day
highest possible relic requirement not including the final 3k 15300/1800= 8.5 days

Realistic
9 groups of 2 x 270 currency = 2430
15300/2430 = 6.29 days

Possible but not likely
18 solo well geared BST or DNC x 175 currency = 3150
15300/3150 = 4.85 days

This is all assuming no white procs.

[Unctgtg]

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

[Natasha]

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

Yeah, I find it to be unlikely though...

[Greatguardian]

I'm not going to quote that wall of text but holy shit you're dense if you think there's no opportunity cost involved in giving items to members in exchange for DKP instead of selling them for gil. "But guuuuuuuyyyyys, I wasn't going to sell it anyways" doesn't change the objective value of any item or amount of time.

If an Ebody is worth 5M then it's worth 5M whether you sell it or give it to a shell member. You are giving them assets totaling 5 Million gil, typically at the expense of "DKP". Their DKP, which is a currency proportional to time invested, has a gil value. When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP. It's just money with a different name.

[Atomic_Skull]

I hope SE really took all this into consideration of all our ideas and complaining that we didn't want this. Granted update is next Tuesday the 14th.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that they haven't. I'm probably wrong that SE would ignore NAs in favor of JPs, I know crazy talk right?

[Mahoro]

I'm not going to quote that wall of text but holy shit you're dense if you think there's no opportunity cost involved in giving items to members in exchange for DKP instead of selling them for gil. "But guuuuuuuyyyyys, I wasn't going to sell it anyways" doesn't change the objective value of any item or amount of time.

If an Ebody is worth 5M then it's worth 5M whether you sell it or give it to a shell member. You are giving them assets totaling 5 Million gil, typically at the expense of "DKP". Their DKP, which is a currency proportional to time invested, has a gil value. When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP. It's just money with a different name.

First, ad hominem on the "dense" shit.

Second, I never said there wasn't an opportunity cost, just that it varies for each person to such a degree that it isn't useful to look through that lens for everything you do in game. The 17 other people who go on an ADL run don't necessarily equal 17 * 2 mill if those people weren't going to farm currency anyway, and if you weren't going to force them to do so in lieu of ADL. You aren't giving them a Hobson's choice. Reimbursing with DKP or other rewards should be sufficient, and they will know that another event will benefit THEM next. That is the only way groups will accomplish these trials. SE misled the playerbase into thinking the majority could do it, but only a fraction of the playerbase would probably want DL/ADL drops so PUGs won't work by and large.

Third, any shell worth its salt doesn't reimburse gil for time in an exact ratio simply because different events are more "lucrative" than others. I agree when you say DKP is "money with a different name." My point was that it is not useful to distill every event in game down to a gil value because LS events vary widely and (as I keep saying in my posts) some items do not have a viable market alternative. Yes, "When you do a 1 hour event with the shell, you contribute 1 man-hour and are paid in the equivalent DKP." No, you aren't paid in opportunity cost of what you gave up in gil, because it varies by person and no group is going to pay you for your time that way outside of merc situations.

Back in the day, when LS's helped their BLM's get Novio Earrings, many manpower hours were expended and one person walked away with a 15 mill item, and perhaps another with a Love Torque. Would you demand an opportunity cost of 2 mill from the LS for your "time" in helping because you could have farmed that amount of gil gardening or goldsmithing? No, it's exactly as you said, you took the DKP and knew that another event would benefit you down the road. There is no difference here for shells that do ADL. The only reason you are seeing a difference here is that you can directly measure the "net loss" from your individual (read: subjective) activities in Dynamis far more easily than other events.

[Unctgtg]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

[Greatguardian]

Your post exemplifies the fatal flaws of many "Old style" linkshells, and why the vast majority of the game's best players now want nothing to do with them whatsoever. Fact is, we wised up. We learned to appreciate the value of our time. If we were in a linkshell to work, and we weren't getting properly compensated, then the linkshell was taking more from us than it was giving out. Whether it's a matter of efficiency, or poor/tilted distribution systems, people got tired of selling themselves off for less than they were worth.

Keep in mind that I'm completely ignoring "fun". If people have fun doing these things, they should do them. But I am working under the assumption that these things are not fun, as ADL is not fun, and people are doing work for DKP so that they can buy some reward later.

In this case, it is straight up bad practice for a linkshell to do an event where they spend more in man-hours than they obtain in loot on average. If Odin costs you 2x18 = 36 Man-hours at an average cost of 500k/manhour and you average out 15M per Odin in Abjurations, then you're much better off not doing Einherjar at all and letting your members buy Ebodies/Mbodies/etc from other shells. So yes, some events are more lucrative than others. But frankly, that's not important. If the linkshell makes more in profit than they put in in man-hours, they make a net profit. If they don't, they shouldn't be doing the event.

The real issue when it comes to large linkshells in the difference of the worth of any individual member's man-hour. A good player can easily push 500k+/manhour, but a shit player may be sitting on 0 or 10k average. People still made linkshells for horribly inefficient events because it allowed them to make a net profit at the expense of the rest of their shell. When I'm worth 500k/manhour and Joe Shmoe is worth 10k/manhour, and he makes a linkshell with me to do an event that pays out 250k/manhour, Joe is making a huge profit while I'm sitting there wasting my time for him. This is why linkshells were popular and kept doing these "variably lucrative" events even though the members did not enjoy it. Linkshell events were FFXI socialism at its finest. Everybody's work was worth the same amount, even if it wasn't.

Again, I'm leaving out fun. If the fun of the event and the people is worth the loss in net gil to you, by all means do it. That's what I do, personally. But ADL is not fun. You are not recouping fun on that gil you lose. All you have then is the numbers.

[Mahoro]

While I understand your viewpoint more now, and sympathize with it to an extent, you are playing the wrong game if you boil everything down to your worth in manhours and use that to judge whether to participate in an event (especially because not everything has a market alternative). I hesitate to use the hackneyed phrase "don't hate the playa, hate the game," but I can't think of anything more appropriate. Most of the game is a grind. I could have made reams of gil farming when I was spamming Akvan for Heka Kalasiris, but I went ahead and did the event because I wanted the gear, not the gil. Most people who play this game do not weigh their choice of activities based on individual manhours to gil ratio.

I would submit that you "wised up" because of FF in 2012, which is a different creature from FF in 2005. These days, most stuff can be lowmanned, almost EVERYTHING has a market alternative, and you can make scads of gil from just spamming JA's in Dynamis. But even today, if you were to go after Voidwatch and/or Legion stuff, you would need to sacrifice your "worth in time/gil" to mindlessly spam stuff because unfortunately that is what most of the endgame is now. Abyssea was a flash in the pan where the gear grew on trees and you could literally measure the effort you put in resulting in rewards put out.

As for fun, hell most people in my shell last night had fun when they chose the right clone and we killed ADL, and wow something actually DROPPED (from Tome NM's too, which will be liquidated for the LS bank). They enjoyed the change of pace from endless Logwatch.

[Runespider]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Bolded the important part. We never really expected anything else in the past..the amount of complaints we gave on the same issues over and over that they totally ignored.. lol, then new guys came in and amazed us by listening and giving us everything we wanted. Now it's back to the old management, not only will the next update still bring the horrible new trials but all new things to rage about too with Legion and whatever else.

The people in charge now operate under the "we know best" rule and there is no changing them as was the case before Abyssea with what they they did and with how they ran FFXIV (and blamed the players for not getting the game to the point they had to be fired for it to change lol). That is the mentality of the people we have running the show here now, they will not be moved on their ideals under any circumstances...even if it kills the game (as seen with FFXIV, they near killed it rather than listen to what players wanted).

[SpankWustler]

But ADL is not fun.

Fun is subjective, it could be fun for somebody!



















And I hope I never meet that person, because he or she is probably not well.

[Greatguardian]

While I understand your viewpoint more now, and sympathize with it to an extent, you are playing the wrong game if you boil everything down to your worth in manhours and use that to judge whether to participate in an event (especially because not everything has a market alternative). I hesitate to use the hackneyed phrase "don't hate the playa, hate the game," but I can't think of anything more appropriate. Most of the game is a grind. I could have made reams of gil farming when I was spamming Akvan for Heka Kalasiris, but I went ahead and did the event because I wanted the gear, not the gil. Most people who play this game do not weigh their choice of activities based on individual manhours to gil ratio.

As for fun, hell most people in my shell last night had fun when they chose the right clone and we killed ADL. They enjoyed the change of pace from endless Logwatch.

I only still play the game because I have fun. I simply do not enjoy ADL, and frankly neither will your linkshell after a while if you have more than a couple relics. There is no reason for me or anyone else to throw away millions of gil on an event that they do not find fun.

[Mahoro]

Perhaps (updated my last post btw with "fun" elements). We throw away millions of gil for our "manhours" on Voidwatch though when we are through having fun killing Pil/Akvan, etc. It's all subjective in the end and the nature of SE's game.

[Greatguardian]

Perhaps (updated my last post btw with "fun" elements). We throw away millions of gil for our "manhours" on Voidwatch though when we are through having fun killing Pil/Akvan, etc. It's all subjective in the end and the nature of SE's game.

Abyssea had nothing to do with wising up. People knew the worth of their time long before that mess. Why is that such a quick fallback for everyone these days? It's dumb, and only attempts to convolute the issue.

Voidwatch is a poor example because the items people are trying to obtain do not have a static gil value. Rather, they have an infinitely high value. People will either pay in whatever amount it takes to obtain a body, or they won't. It's not the least bit subjective.

[Mahoro]

Most people were valuing VW bodies as 20 million based on the dev's suggested implementation of tickets. Sure, it doesn't have a static gil value, but you can bet that whatever gil value it DOES have is many many times lower than the hundreds of manhours people have invested in NM's that don't drop anything but logs. My point is we do stuff that doesn't directly compensate our hours for gil all the time, and will continue to do so.

EDIT: In fact, VW with a ticket system is a better analogy. Once the tickets are implemented, bodies WILL have a static cost. However, the secondary market will be extremely low because people won't do PUGs if they already have the rare item, and most tickets will remain intra-LS because that is commonly when someone will do a VW and get an extra ticket for something they already have. Limited-to-zero market alternative, and all the opportunity cost gil in the world you could farm in Dynamis won't get you closer to the item. At some point, if you want the item, you will have to spam the NM another hundred times in PUGs or join a LS where tickets are sold/DKP'd to other members.

[Greatguardian]

Most people were valuing VW bodies as 20 million based on the dev's suggested implementation of tickets. Sure, it doesn't have a static gil value, but you can bet that whatever gil value it DOES have is many many times lower than the hundreds of manhours people have invested in NM's that don't drop anything but logs. My point is we do stuff that doesn't directly compensate our hours for gil all the time, and will continue to do so.

EDIT: In fact, VW with a ticket system is a better analogy. Once the tickets are implemented, bodies WILL have a static cost. However, the secondary market will be extremely low because people won't do PUGs if they already have the rare item, and most tickets will remain intra-LS because that is commonly when someone will do a VW and get an extra ticket for something they already have. Limited-to-zero market alternative, and all the opportunity cost gil in the world you could farm in Dynamis won't get you closer to the item. At some point, if you want the item, you will have to spam the NM another hundred times in PUGs or join a LS where tickets are sold/DKP'd to other members.

The bodies can be valued if and only if there is a ticket system. If there is a ticket system, smart people will stop doing Voidwatch as it would be a complete waste of their time when they can just buy bodies (assuming a 20M pricetag). As long as the ticket system is not currently implemented, then the bodies have infinite cost which explains the past trends.

[Mahoro]

If they can find a body ticket, sure. I don't expect the secondary market to flourish because of the scenario I laid out in my last post where most, if not all, tickets will be traded/sold/DKP'd in the confines of a LS.

In any event, the reason I used this analogy is that there is no current viable market alternative for Umbral Marrow. Hell, if I could just tell the relicholders in my shell to farm up 6 million and buy each Marrow rather than waste a LS event on it, don't you think I would? That won't happen though, so I have to compensate my members in other ways. They seemed happy enough when we farmed Relic, Forgottens, and currency in the time we had left over in Xarca. Hell, they got MORE during that LS event than they get in Voidwatch usually.

It remains my hope that SE lowers the requirement of the trial.

[Greatguardian]

A full alliance of 18 people getting more in a lowman-geared level 90 event than a level 99 alliance-based event? No way.

6Mil/Marrow is laughably cheap. Why? Because of the god damned opportunity cost. That's how these things are priced. That's why no one will sell them and no one will buy them. The opportunity cost you'd have to incur to farm ADL means that each marrow would be worth an easy 20M+, essentially costing relic holders another 100M+ (another full relic) to go from 95-99. Whether they pay that out or do the event themselves makes no difference, it's still 100M down the drain.

Why you're somehow unable to see that and insist on arguing with everyone here is beyond me.

[Nynja]

How do people still not understand why the baseline value of 20 mil per marrow came to existence and why it wont change?

[Alerith]

People don't seem to comprehend the value of what is lost if you're spending the whole run trying to get marrow. You're missing out on millions in easily farmable currency or currency that could be used on a brand new relic.

And really, who's honestly lining up for a Sagasinger or either Archon item? Nobody is going to farm ADL for marrow when you can easily make more, faster, and with more benefit to the other people with other means.

[Nynja]

I've already broken down the ADL drops:
The swords are pretty garbage, the sagasinger glows, so its a trophy item...but then again any item with a 0.1% drop rate is a trophy item, which begs the VW question of why are people bitching and moaning about inventory space about having to hold mekira's/toci's?
The archon items are weaker versions of the shadow items. Instead of annuling damage 10% of the time, they'll annul severe damage 10% of the time. The only decent thing about the ring is its the best Comet ring out there...of course if you're casting Comet theres a 99% chance you're dumb (the other 1% being a taru with dark dmg+6% staves), and would explain why you want ADL items.

There really is no incentive to ADL -.-

[Runespider]

The new ticket idea honestly says quite a lot, they are really trying hard to push us back to LS run content as it used to be and away from pug stuff. The ticket system favours a LS run system where you do the NMs set aside for peoples wants and not the ones you capped on gear from.

That's the only reason I can see for such a system when it would of been easier to do something far better, ie. trade any of an certain NMs drops to an NPC to build up points for the rarer of the items that nm drops.

[Mahoro]

A full alliance of 18 people getting more in a lowman-geared level 90 event than a level 99 alliance-based event? No way.

6Mil/Marrow is laughably cheap. Why? Because of the god damned opportunity cost. That's how these things are priced. That's why no one will sell them and no one will buy them. The opportunity cost you'd have to incur to farm ADL means that each marrow would be worth an easy 20M+, essentially costing relic holders another 100M+ (another full relic) to go from 95-99. Whether they pay that out or do the event themselves makes no difference, it's still 100M down the drain.

Why you're somehow unable to see that and insist on arguing with everyone here is beyond me.

I do see that. 6 million was just a number I threw out arbitrarily to say that if I could tell the relicholders to buy it, I would. But they can't, as you say, so I am trying to come up with ways to actually do SE's trial, since it is clearly not being changed now. Your point is 17 people can make 2-4 million (34-68 million) for each time they sacrifice a Dyna run. My rebuttal is that (i) not everyone wants to spend their Dyna time hardcore farming gil or being forced to do so, (ii) they are potentially rewarded in other ways, including help with Arch Bosses in other zones or DKP for other events, (iii) "opportunity cost" is ultimately subjective based on your specific activities, and (iv) boiling everything down to opportunity cost goes against the spirit of other events in the game where you endlessly waste manpower hours when you could be farming gil, or every single event ANYONE has EVER attended in the past where the group wasn't giving you gil for time.

I could say the same things about the perpetuity of this argument.

[Raksha]

I could say the same things about the perpetuity of this argument.

I think your lawyer training is preventing you from letting this drop, maho!

At the end of the day ppl who want to gil farm dynamis will do so, and those who don't will tag along to ADL for DKP/swords.

Do we really want everyone farming dynamis every day? Do we really want people to make 11 mules so that you can literally farm dynamis 24 hours per day? (inb4 strawman)

If the opportunity cost loss is too high, then maybe we should be selling marrows for 54M (18ppl x 3M lost).

[Mahoro]

Rak, I think some people won't be happy unless SE puts in a ticker in the menu compensating them with gil for every second they are in the game. Why stop at Dynamis, why not put the ticker in Abyssea? Quick, the time anybody is in Abyssea and NOT farming Tiger King Hides is a waste of gil.

Geez, I'm a lawyer and it's MY profession that usually says "time is money." :cool:

[Frost]

You owe me 135,000 Gil.

That's the time/money I wasted reading your posts!

I kid. I kid.

You make an interesting counter-point. If you do break the game down too simply you do run into that "Well anyone not doing <MAXIMUM GIL FARMING METHOD X> is wasting their time" when the reality is hey, sometimes it's just fun to do different content.

[Karbuncle]

You owe me 135,000 Gil.

That's the time/money I wasted reading your posts!

I kid. I kid.

You make an interesting counter-point. If you do break the game down too simply you do run into that "Well anyone not doing <MAXIMUM GIL FARMING METHOD X> is wasting their time" when the reality is hey, sometimes it's just fun to do different content.

I agree, ADL would be fun the first 2-3 Times... But how about the 8th? the 13t? the 20th?

Think about it from this point, I know multiple people with relics, some i do consider a friend and would help... But I can only have fun with ADL so much >_>

Eventually the fun of a new event burns out.

[Mahoro]

I completely agree. I am starting to get PTSD with some of the Voidwatch mobs lol.

In any event, I hope SE lowers the trial requirements for Relic 99 some more to fit more in line with their representations to the playerbase.

[Greatguardian]

You owe me 135,000 Gil.

That's the time/money I wasted reading your posts!

I kid. I kid.

You make an interesting counter-point. If you do break the game down too simply you do run into that "Well anyone not doing <MAXIMUM GIL FARMING METHOD X> is wasting their time" when the reality is hey, sometimes it's just fun to do different content.

Except I've said in pretty much every post on the topic that fun is left out of the equation. I do plenty of inefficient shit because it's fun. Fun has its own value.

Doing shit purely to obtain an item or a profit, however, necessitates quantification.

@Maho, There is no "spirit" to old endgame. If you were doing things for the sake of compensation, and you were getting less out than you were putting in, then you were wasting your time. It doesn't have to be gil, but it still boils down to some currency which can be enumerated in gil. The fact that people did it anyways despite not finding it enjoyable was more a testament to them being uninformed than anything else.

If you're still trying to bring up the fact that many shells had DKP that paid you by the hour despite the fact that many events had variable rates of profitability, then you are talking about a poorly designed system. You're a lawyer. Would you work 5 days a week at $12/hr if you had to flip burgers on monday and wednesday but had court dates on tuesday, thursday, and friday? Hell no.

Opportunity cost for each activity is objective. X-hours doing X-thing produces X-gil return. People are smart to group up if and only if the amount of gil per man-hour they are able to obtain in X-hours doing X-groupThing is greater than the amount of gil per man-hour each could make solo. You keep using the word subjective, as if the numerical values change based on how you look at it. That is not the case. If time in Dynamis is worth 500k/manhr, then time in Dynamis is worth 500k/hr. If time killing ADL is worth 200k/manhr, then ADL is worth 200k/manhr. That is objective.

You are trying to argue that the value of someone's time can be lowered if they choose not to participate in some events. This is not the case. Their time is still worth 500k/hr. They are simply underpaying themselves, and/or being underpaid, if they choose to earn less. This is a video game. The worth of your time can be consciously determined by the player, as they are capable of freely generating goods at market value.

Saying that someone may not use their time does not make their time worth less. "Some profit is better than no profit" only applies so long as there is no higher profit that can be obtained with the same or fewer resources. Some profit is better than no profit, but 500k/manhr profit is better than <200k/manhr profit and both constitute the exact same allocation of resources - they both require entering Dynamis and killing shit. Settling for less money when doing the same work is stupid and no one will want to do it.

[Mahoro]

Opportunity cost for each activity is objective. X-hours doing X-thing produces X-gil return. People are smart to group up if and only if the amount of gil per man-hour they are able to obtain in X-hours doing X-groupThing is greater than the amount of gil per man-hour each could make solo. You keep using the word subjective, as if the numerical values change based on how you look at it. That is not the case. If time in Dynamis is worth 500k/manhr, then time in Dynamis is worth 500k/hr. If time killing ADL is worth 200k/manhr, then ADL is worth 200k/manhr. That is objective.

You are trying to argue that the value of someone's time can be lowered if they choose not to participate in some events. This is not the case. Their time is still worth 500k/hr. They are simply underpaying themselves, and/or being underpaid, if they choose to earn less. This is a video game. The worth of your time can be consciously determined by the player, as they are capable of freely generating goods at market value.

Saying that someone may not use their time does not make their time worth less. "Some profit is better than no profit" only applies so long as there is no higher profit that can be obtained with the same or fewer resources. Some profit is better than no profit, but 500k/manhr profit is better than <200k/manhr profit and both constitute the exact same allocation of resources - they both require entering Dynamis and killing shit. Settling for less money when doing the same work is stupid and no one will want to do it.

It is stupid in your eyes because you have boiled down anybody's actions in Dynamis to 500k/hr. You have made the opportunity cost choice for them. You have pre-decided what their time is worth based on what your time is worth and what you do in Dynamis (likely farm for a relic or HMP's).

Our argument here is well-trod ground. Do a Google search using the terms "opportunity cost" and "subjective." Here's what you will find on the first page of results:


Opportunity cost is the cost of any activity measured in terms of the value of the next best alternative foregone (that is not chosen). It is the sacrifice related to the second best choice available to someone, or group, who has picked among several mutually exclusive choices


Opportunity cost is subjective. Only the chooser can determine the most attractive alternative for itself from its special point of view. We each have a different list of things valued in decline from top to bottom due to our different aims of life and philosophy. Even for the same activity or good or service, different individuals take it with different opportunity cost.


Like beauty, opportunity cost is in the eye of the beholder. It is subjective. Only the individual making the choice can identify the most attractive alternative.


To obtain a satisfactory solution to the economic problem of the nature of costs, Professor Wiseman urges a “return to consistent development of the subjective cost tradition.” By contrast, the dominant “orthodoxy” treats opportunity costs as essentially “objective.” This belief in objective costs leads to a misunderstanding about the nature of the resource-allocation process and to inflated claims by economists as to their competence as “social engineers.” A better approach is to see opportunity-cost decisions as the subjective valuations of individuals.

Ultimately, I see no reason to argue any further as our viewpoints seem to have been debated by economists for years. I will agree to disagree. As Raksha said above, the people who hardcore farm Dyna gil will continue to do so, and the people who don't will likely help the relicholders. Don't make their choice for them.

[Greatguardian]

You can't apply real-world opportunity cost to FFXI opportunity cost. There are no conflicting life goals and philosophies. It's a video game. You have fun, you make friends, and you obtain loot. That loot does not become more or less attractive based on how you feel about monetary possessions or moral/ethical dilemmas. It is simply loot. The population is already distilled to such a point where the minute differences in perceived value of items become negligible as we are all players of the same video game and all generally agree on the worth of X, Y, and Z pieces of loot.

500k/hr is an approximate average for how much a farming session in Dynamis is worth for a solo player. My time is worth even more than that. Other people's time is worth less. Very few people capable of killing ADL in the first place are in a position where their time is worth less than ADL is worth.

I'm sure people will still do this trial. I also know that no one who knows the value of their time will enjoy it one bit. You'll be lucky to crank out 3-4 99s before people get sick of it. Have fun finishing the rest without properly compensating people.

[Mahoro]

You can't apply real-world opportunity cost to FFXI opportunity cost. There are no conflicting life goals and philosophies. It's a video game. You have fun, you make friends, and you obtain loot. That loot does not become more or less attractive based on how you feel about monetary possessions or moral/ethical dilemmas. It is simply loot. The population is already distilled to such a point where the minute differences in perceived value of items become negligible as we are all players of the same video game and all generally agree on the worth of X, Y, and Z pieces of loot.



Yes, but not all agree on how to use Dynamis time, and therein lies a conflicting goal/philosophy:

Example A: LS member wants an Avesta Bangles.
Your solution: Pay 6 people 2-4 million each in "Dynamis opportunity cost" to farm an Arch Angra Mainyu pop and kill it. Total price: 12-24 million multiplied by however many Mainyu pops it takes for Bangles to drop. Also assumes 6 people can kill it.
My solution: LS mage helps out on ADL. Relicholders help on Mainyu. Rinse/repeat till Bangles drop. Total price: 0 gil out of pocket, nobody in scenario cares about the "opportunity cost" because they all got something.

Also, not all agree on how to obtain loot (buy everything or do event), and therein lies a conflicting goal/philosophy:

Example B: A LS member only has 2-3 hours a night to play. Wants an E. Body.
Your solution: Farm Dynamis and pay for multiple Nidhogg pops till E. Body drops, or pay for an entire group to do Einherjar 10 times. Total price: 8 million for each Nidhogg pop multiplied by however many pops it takes for E. Body to drop, or a napkin to wipe the tears of laughter when he asks a group to do Ein for him 10 times.
My solution: LS member earns DKP through events like ADL. Next Einherjar, E. Body drops and member lots it. Total price: 0 gil, member doesn't care about the "opportunity cost" because doing Ein took less effort and was probably more interesting than hardcore farming Dyna and trolling PJ for Nidhogg pops.

As for your last paragraph, I actually wholeheartedly agree. People might get sick of ADL. I probably will after the 4th or 5th!

[Raksha]

If you're still trying to bring up the fact that many shells had DKP that paid you by the hour despite the fact that many events had variable rates of profitability, then you are talking about a poorly designed system.


I don't know if this changes your opinion or not, but we don't award DKP on a per-hour basis, we award DKP per event/mob.

For example each voidwatch fight would be 1dkp, an entire dynamis session would be 6ish, with more potential DKP for ADL, etc.

[Byrth]

The problem with systems like the one you are describing is mostly in the execution. You have a system like this:
* Player does event
* Player gets the same amount of DKP as everyone else who did the event
* At some point Player converts the DKP into a reward

The two ways they break down:
* The DKP rewarded per event is constant, even though players are not all equal.
* The ratio of DKP to gil/time investment is not constant for all rewards.

The benefit of using a system like yours is that it's structured. In the long run though, it is not necessarily more fair than a "divine choice" system where LS leaders simply call out who is getting what item and what the event for the night is with no explanation given. Someone who does ADL and gets a single Umbral Marrow is getting a much better deal (20mil) than someone who does Einherjar four times and gets an E.body (4 Sweet Teas = 20mil).

If I was going to give a suggestion to improve it, I would recommend not using DKP anymore. Instead of an intermediary "DKP," award gil for each event that yields sellable items. If you do an 18-man fight for a 20mil drop, each player has made 1mil. If someone does 20 such fights, they would have the right to a 20-mil item. etc.

If you aren't comfortable putting a price on the rewards from an event (like Einherjar), then make it optional and let the do-er beware as far as the drop system goes. It used to be that "LS events" entailed 18 people, but that just isn't the case anymore. If don't pull the 6-9 people required for the most hardcore of events, maybe your LS doesn't want to do that event. If some people still want to do it and you can't pull enough, shout. Same deal for Voidwatch. If you can't get 18, shout. Going into any event with a skilled core group is going to give you a much better shot at success, so it isn't like your LS is totally out of luck if they can't pull a full 18 (or even 12) for Voidwatch.

[Raksha]

The problem with systems like the one you are describing is mostly in the execution. You have a system like this:
* Player does event
* Player gets the same amount of DKP as everyone else who did the event
* At some point Player converts the DKP into a reward

The two ways they break down:
* The DKP rewarded per event is constant, even though players are not all equal.
* The ratio of DKP to gil/time investment is not constant for all rewards.

The benefit of using a system like yours is that it's structured. In the long run though, it is not necessarily more fair than a "divine choice" system where LS leaders simply call out who is getting what item and what the event for the night is with no explanation given. Someone who does ADL and gets a single Umbral Marrow is getting a much better deal (20mil) than someone who does Einherjar four times and gets an E.body (4 Sweet Teas = 20mil).

If I was going to give a suggestion to improve it, I would recommend not using DKP anymore. Instead of an intermediary "DKP," award gil for each event that yields sellable items. If you do an 18-man fight for a 20mil drop, each player has made 1mil. If someone does 20 such fights, they would have the right to a 20-mil item. etc.

If you aren't comfortable putting a price on the rewards from an event (like Einherjar), then make it optional and let the do-er beware as far as the drop system goes. It used to be that "LS events" entailed 18 people, but that just isn't the case anymore. If don't pull the 6-9 people required for the most hardcore of events, maybe your LS doesn't want to do that event. If some people still want to do it and you can't pull enough, shout. Same deal for Voidwatch. If you can't get 18, shout. Going into any event with a skilled core group is going to give you a much better shot at success, so it isn't like your LS is totally out of luck if they can't pull a full 18 (or even 12) for Voidwatch.


DKP costs for sellable items are based on their gil cost, ra/ex items are decided on a group basis on the LS forums.

We have gil rewards for people who level needed jobs, we have dkp bonuses for things like being on time, and "dkp worthiness" is based on attendance, not skill (I dunno how you would set up a system to determine the dkp-worthiness of a person's playing abilitiy. If you have suggestions let me know)

[Unctgtg]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Guess SE is ignoring the Thread.

[Babygyrl]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Guess SE is ignoring the Thread.


Honestly i think they just dont care. They said its 5 umbrow merrows and thats final!!.. Guess there is not much of a point to have a forum with player feed back if they wont listen to it anyways.

[Unctgtg]

Remember Alpha and Beta in 14. They didn't listen to us.

[Alerith]

SE I would like some feedback on what you plan to do or completely ignore your player base all together again????

Guess SE is ignoring the Thread.


Remember Alpha and Beta in 14. They didn't listen to us.

Ok, while I'm not happy about how the Dev team is handling this trial, you're acting like a child.

"WAHHHH SE ISN'T LISTENING! WAHHHHH THEY DON'T CARE!"

Really, knock it off. Just because they don't respond to every single post doesn't mean they aren't listening, and if you've noticed, we've received responses a few times in this very thread. They may not have been the exact answers we're looking for, but they aren't flat out ignoring the issue.

As for XIV, sure, they dropped the ball on release. But ya know what? They not only admitted it, they put in a new development team and released a timeline of planned changes. That's a lot coming from an MMO team.

Now, man up, actually read the thread, then try to post something useful that isn't childish drivel.

[Unctgtg]

You also do realize WHO got put in charge of FFXI right. The same development team that went from 11 to 14 then back to 11.

[Karbuncle]

As for XIV, sure, they dropped the ball on release. But ya know what? They not only admitted it, they put in a new development team and released a timeline of planned changes. That's a lot coming from an MMO team.

Thats called PR.

They're attempting to save-face and turn FFXIV around from being a flop, You're delusional if you think for a second anything would have changed if the game actually made a good release. The only reason FFXIV is changing is because it was hailed as one of the worst releases of an MMO in forever.

---

That said, I would like to note: I understand they listen, i really do.

But I think they have the same problem as the FFXIV Team did. They only half listen, and continue to go about their "Grand vision of balance" with or without our approval. Which, Some might think is their right, But they're selling a constant product, If they want to keep customers, Their goal shouldn't be fullfilling some un-seeable vision of Balance, it should be making customers happy.

Which they're failing at doing when the majority of players are complaining, NA, EU, and JP, look around.

The only way we'll really see change is if the game literally died and began draining money, and this late in its life, they'd likely just pull the plug, they know it, and we know it. So most of us keep playing in hopes maybe something in the future will change, But a lot of us are quitting because its becoming hopeless.

I really like what they did with this forum, truly., But as someone would say, Its about 7 Years too late to make a real difference. I like the Community Reps, I enjoy the forum itself and what we can do with it, I enjoy the Test server.

I Just wish we had all of it when it could actually make a difference, When new people were actually coming in, When the game wasn't in its final stages. (not saying its dying, its just, Theres very few new players).

Just like FFXIV, Their change of heart is a little too late to make a real difference. That, and they're still an "Evil Genie" when it comes to most of the updates.

<3 you Community Reps. <3 Dev Team. </3 Whoevers calling the BALANCE shots.

[Zinato]

Thats called PR.

They're attempting to save-face and turn FFXIV around from being a flop, You're delusional if you think for a second anything would have changed if the game actually made a good release. The only reason FFXIV is changing is because it was hailed as one of the worst releases of an MMO in forever.

---

That said, I would like to note: I understand they listen, i really do.

But I think they have the same problem as the FFXIV Team did. They only half listen, and continue to go about their "Grand vision of balance" with or without our approval. Which, Some might think is their right, But they're selling a constant product, If they want to keep customers, Their goal shouldn't be fullfilling some un-seeable vision of Balance, it should be making customers happy.

Which they're failing at doing when the majority of players are complaining, NA, EU, and JP, look around.

The only way we'll really see change is if the game literally died and began draining money, and this late in its life, they'd likely just pull the plug, they know it, and we know it. So most of us keep playing in hopes maybe something in the future will change, But a lot of us are quitting because its becoming hopeless.

I really like what they did with this forum, truly., But as someone would say, Its about 7 Years too late to make a real difference. I like the Community Reps, I enjoy the forum itself and what we can do with it, I enjoy the Test server.

I Just wish we had all of it when it could actually make a difference, When new people were actually coming in, When the game wasn't in its final stages. (not saying its dying, its just, Theres very few new players)

I quoted an edit that didn't exist yet? Since, we are momentarily off topic I wanted to say I wish they would quit making numbered FF installments MMOs. I do enjoy replaying the others from time to time i'll be sad one day when I can't play XI anymore and replay/rewatch story. At this rate though FFXVI or XVII will be an MMO too. Name it FF Crystal War or something just don't subject numbered installments to this.

[Nala]

Sadly its far too late for such sentiments, there have been other numbered final fantasy releases since, i had thought the same thing at the release of 11 but it is what it is and at this point, kind of like most of the major changes that we allow the dev team to put through, they are what they are, well they might change it in about 7 years who knows?

If only a comrep could shove what Karbuncle just said down the dev's throats and force them to chew and digest it perhaps we could stop the "Evil Genie" (sorry i like that analogy... its very appropriate.)

[Alerith]

I'm not really going to try to pick sides on this particular argument, but what makes single player games more valid than MMOs?

Or rather, why is it more proper for a numbered FF installment to be singleplayer? Are MMO players opinions and money any less valid?

[cidbahamut]

I'm not really going to try to pick sides on this particular argument, but what makes single player games more valid than MMOs?

Or rather, why is it more proper for a numbered FF installment to be singleplayer? Are MMO players opinions and money any less valid?

It's more that FFXI would have been more appropriately named as Final Fantasy: [subtitle of your choice goes here], rather than another iteration of the numerical sequence. An MMO is a distinctly different experience than what a single player console game offers. It's about people being stuck in their ways. I myself was pretty upset when I heard that the 11th numerical installment was going to be an MMO. I figured they should have just called it Final Fantasy Online or something, and I still think they should have done that.

It's not like every final fantasy has been tied to a number throughout the company's history. There's precedent for breaking from the numerical labeling. Anyone remember Final Fantasy Mystic Quest?

[Zinato]

I've had this question before, and the answer is single player is eternal. I can play FFI on my NES right this moment. However, there servers won't be up forever no matter how much I wish they were. And with new MMOs include those of the same brand its only a matter of time before the older ones vanish. I don't want it one player for "A better game" I want it single player so its around forever. For example, one day people will ask who Prishe is in FF Dissidia and only those who played FFXI in its time will be able to ever know who she was. Should I ever have kids I imagine when they ask what game came after X I'll end up saying XII.

Personally, once the game reaches it final incarnation I would wish they created a PS3 blu-ray version of FFXI designed for single player playing. Tweaks to NPC system allowing for up to 3 all of who grow in level with you, and of course tweaks to big end-game bosses so that 4 can win. Oh, and the obvious drops would have to change to be much much higher and respawns much lower. (can't very well spend a year making a weapon in a single player game.) I know this is impossible but it would be nice to replay the story from time to time, its a bummer 90% of storyline is unrepeatable, excluding cut-scenes.

[Runespider]

They won't change it before addition now, it will be added in a few days.

Whether they will change it later on will be down to how many actually do the trials, and since some of the people complaining here are more than willing to buy them from mercs I'm guessing quite a lot will actually be doing them.

As I say, I think a lot will end up doing these once they realise it can be seen as a status item and they will join/create shells to obtain them. FFXI has always been about status and it won't take most endgamers long to slip back into that mindset with the devs pushing stuff like this.

[Atomic_Skull]

SE actually *does* listen to their players. It's just a matter of which players they are listening to, and that's not us.

[SpankWustler]

SE actually *does* listen to their players. It's just a matter of which players they are listening to, and that's not us.

They only listen to their focus group of 24 in the Osaka Asylum for the Criminally Insane?

[Insaniac]

The results of the poll show:
3 - for
2 - against
19 - I can see the devil in your shirt when I look at you through my bed sheet

"Proceed with stage 2 trials."

[Unctgtg]

So I guess SE since unlocking and reundeleting this thread, has completely ignored ALL threads.