Ok...let me level with you here SE...

[Sparthos]

Why would you look for people to play the jobs your mule/mules does/do? Even if you don't have mules, and no one in your alliance of relic holders has mules, you act like it would be difficult to shout and get those people by offering them, and only them, lotting rights on all drops. Those items for the glowy trial would probably be worth a few mil still, and some of the drops from the other NMs aren't cheap either. Plus you can get 100's.

You're gonna get hundreds doing an ADL run? Unlikely, especially with the DL rate nerf.

The fact is the trials are pretty fucking stupid and offers very little for non-relics at the cost of requiring an alliance to win. If I shout ADL, I can offer w/e shit currency falls from killing trash mobs, the drops from the popped NMs (which arent 100% drops), DL drops (largely shit) and ADL drops (not in high demand).

No one is going to waste their time helping people unless it's just for fun. The trial is designed poorly through and through. You having to bring up mules shows just how low demand would be to assist relic holders up to 99.

[Insaniac]

I see what you mean.
But hey lets think outside the box for a second. Gives us an ammo item that gets inscribed with the trial. The item is all jobs so youncan go whatever job you want for the fight. Get the kills on any job or combination of jobs and hand itin. Voila problem over.
It seems we could do it this way, and party setup would be no trouble at all.I thought of something like that but didn't bother posting it because really the fundamentals of the trial are bad. I agree though. That would help a ton with building an alliance. There's no reason not to ask for a completely rebuilt, simple, moderate trial though. With a gun to your head your first request shouldn't be "Can you just shoot me in the leg instead?" It should be "Can you not shoot me at all?"

[SpankWustler]

You're gonna get hundreds doing an ADL run? Unlikely, especially with the DL rate nerf.

The fact is the trials are pretty fucking stupid and offers very little for non-relics at the cost of requiring an alliance to win. If I shout ADL, I can offer w/e shit currency falls from killing trash mobs, the drops from the popped NMs (which arent 100% drops), DL drops (largely shit) and ADL drops (not in high demand).

No one is going to waste their time helping people unless it's just for fun. The trial is designed poorly through and through. You having to bring up mules shows just how low demand would be to assist relic holders up to 99.

Assuming the trial was kill-based there would be the added reward of selling the Umbral SadThing to a SadPerson. Only a little over a million gil a piece after an even split across an alliance, but considering the other rewards are exactly as awful as you make them out to be, a million gil each would be a pretty big improvement.

Plus, it's not a 100% win so you can't exactly consider it a million gil every night. Plus, some people would be giving up their nightly farming run for it. So, yeah, even if the trial were changed to "kills on any job while equipped with this SadBullet" it would still pretty much suck. It would just suck less.

A (presumably larger) number of vanilla Dynamis Lord kills would be an improvement. I presume the number would be larger because when gun's already out, somebody's bound to at least be pistol-whipped.

[Nynja]

Thinking it over, "X kills" trial would be equally as bad as farming X drops, since once everyones finished to 99, any new relics are left out in the cold.

[Greatguardian]

Thinking it over, "X kills" trial would be equally as bad as farming X drops, since once everyones finished to 99, any new relics are left out in the cold.

notrly if you just sell the umbral marrow to the server's resident tryhard.

You know someone, somewhere is going to do these ass-backwards trials and give the Devs some vindication.

[Nynja]

notrly if you just sell the umbral marrow to the server's resident tryhard.

You know someone, somewhere is going to do these ass-backwards trials and give the Devs some vindication.

but you know the LS that bothers farming them is going to say this
"You want in the alliance for 20 kills? 5 mil per invite"

[Anewie]

Lulz. You're really grasping for straws. I've never lead a linkshell for Abyssea. In fact, it's probably the only thing I haven't lead a linkshell for. Why would anyone need a linkshell for Abyssea?

You sound like someone who's used to dealing with some godawful members. Attendance is hard? Points are hard? Herp derp I can count to potato and put a number in a spreadsheet. Scheduling? Gathering? God forbid, job selection? Open notepad, it takes 2 minutes. Hell, back at 75 I was perfectly capable of saying "Make some parties and don't be stupid", and people would do it without any other instruction.

Try recruiting mature adults instead of teenagers and "adults" with the mentality of a high school girl sometime and you'll find that it's a night and day difference. Of course, it takes a good leader to attract real talent. Most linkshells fail because 1) Most of the good talent already has a home, 2) Most of FFXI's playerbase is woefully immature, and 3) Most leaders just aren't that good at it.

My rules were simple. I don't care who's screwing who, who dislikes who, or what you do in your free time. Don't give me a headache and don't let your girl's locker room drama interfere with my events and you're golden. Respect in = Respect out.


please GG.You are not folling nobody.

Lol at your "linkshell" counting as a large scale endgame ls. Aww honey, bless your heart1 (aka B**c, please)

Running a ls that did sky,sea,einherjar,various hnms,dynamis 5 days a week. Yeas that took work and patience and im sure leaders of the legendary endgame shells back at 75 would agree.

It makes much more sense when you know who GG was before abyssea. Lolz. W.e im done arguing with u. Ur ls was so amazing gg! And it was SO EASY to lead too.

Because ACLARITY AND WINGSOFVANADIEL were SO AMAZING, SO PROACTIVE, SO ELITE! right GG?
AMIRITE? Lol, bless ur heart booboo

edit: yeah most ls leaders have IT EASY! AND THEYRE NOT EVEN ANY GOOD. gtfo. Its an embarrasment to the hard working shellleaders who did well by their members w.o taking advantage of them. U go around spouting bs about how easy their jobs were and how theyre still not any good. I could hav been the most hated player in xi, but at least im not a joke player kidding myself into the thought that i was so amazing and leading was so easy. dude ur ls was never that good, u were never that good and that hasnt changed since abyssea. its just no one cares how good u are now and u can sit down trying to front. ur ls was never large scale and you know it. so stop lyin.

[Alerith]

please GG.You are not folling nobody.

Lol at your "linkshell" counting as a large scale endgame ls. Aww honey, bless your heart1 (aka B**c, please)

Running a ls that did sky,sea,einherjar,various hnms,dynamis 5 days a week. Yeas that took work and patience and im sure leaders of the legendary endgame shells back at 75 would agree.

It makes much more sense when you know who GG was before abyssea. Lolz. W.e im done arguing with u. Ur ls was so amazing gg! And it was SO EASY to lead too.

Because ACLARITY AND WINGSOFVANADIEL were SO AMAZING, SO PROACTIVE, SO ELITE! right GG?
AMIRITE? Lol, bless ur heart booboo

edit: yeah most ls leaders have IT EASY! AND THEYRE NOT EVEN ANY GOOD. gtfo. Its an embarrasment to the hard working shellleaders who did well by their members w.o taking advantage of them. U go around spouting bs about how easy their jobs were and how theyre still not any good. I could hav been the most hated player in xi, but at least im not a joke player kidding myself into the thought that i was so amazing and leading was so easy. dude ur ls was never that good, u were never that good and that hasnt changed since abyssea. its just no one cares how good u are now and u can sit down trying to front. ur ls was never large scale and you know it. so stop lyin.

http://i.imgur.com/CzMaI.jpg

This is one of the most pathetic and childish posts I have seen in such an argument. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

And no good leader from back in the day is going to say it was hard. What they are going to say is that they had a good group of officers to help manage the shell.

It's only hard if you're incapable, incompetent, or both.

[Anewie]

http://i.imgur.com/CzMaI.jpg

This is one of the most pathetic and childish posts I have seen in such an argument. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

And no good leader from back in the day is going to say it was hard. What they are going to say is that they had a good group of officers to help manage the shell.

It's only hard if you're incapable, incompetent, or both.
Again, its subjective. I find leading to be hard work. Many others do, and id venture to say any leader or officer of any of the big name hnm or endgame LS will agree that leading can be and is hard work. Is that saying it isnt fun and is a miserable experience? No. Is that to say it's impossible? No.

If you HONESTLY believe you could have easily lead a group of people the way EXCELLENCE, DEMO, BLUE GARTR did back at 75, not only are u FoS, but as I said before, quite delusional. Why would I be mad? Lol, bless ur heart sweety.

No on said leading shells was hard.I said it was hard work, and that's not nessicarily the same thing. Absolute Virtue was hard, gathering members, managing points, managing drama, keeping track of attendance, getting people gathered, figuring out wtf and organizing a large scale endgame ls, takes, shock(!), patience, dedication and hard work.

Now u can trash talk and say the members were drama infested retards who couldnt play worth anything, but truth tea tastes like this: they did more, got more and had more fun than you probably ever did. And they didnt whine about it at the end of the day.

If you honestly think any large scale LS, that required persistence and hard work to keep the shell running on top, was due to "losers" ls members etc, I can really understand why GG would say that. The dude was and is a butt hurt mad baby who didnt accomplish much of anything until empyrean weapons came out.

Call me rude or childish if you want, but shell leaders work hard to make and run good shells. GG has no exp in that and has no right to trash any shell that was ever on top of their game. Their game being whatever they wanted to do. Saying if a leader works hard for their members must be because the members are childish and stupid, that's insulting,although true sometimes tbh (lol). Leaders and members both can work hard for their gears, but leaders do tend to do the more work. This argument started when I said a leader is typically more deserving of the first loot.

All argument aside, my point still stands. Leaders are deserving of being the first to reep the rewards of the more rare loot. Why? If you must argue using GGs very silly and delusional argument that leaders only need to work hard if their members suck or are childish (ludicrous lol), it still doesn't change my point. A LS leader is also the boss, the HBIC, the ringleader, the captain, the parent and architect of the group.

The point im trying to make is simply, who better deserve the first sponsorship or reward of a rare kind than the leader themself? The answer is no one in most cases.This argument isn't about being selfish, you're all selfish as players in a sense that you think the game should cater to you. If you think you deserve everything under the sun at the same rate and value of the people who are organizing and running the shell, you are selfish as well.

If you honestly think a leader is selfish and so undeserveing over you, gtfo and start ur own gd LS. Hello? Because its so easy right gg?^^ Oh, you're already a ls leader, one who doesnt need to work hard because ur members are so mature and elite and independant! Sorry I forgot.lol Bless ur heart
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxziitjPgi1qfy0cmo1_400.gif

[Karbuncle]

You're just going full retard now aren't you =.=a

to Elaborate: Some of the things you say make sense, But delivery is 90% of your credibility, and you're acting childish, petty, and quite Trollish

[Babekeke]

I'm so brilliant that I have to slag people off whilst hiding behind a level 1 mule

Another add to /blacklist... These forums are getting quieter by the day.

[Kimble]

The only people that think that leaders deserve more then others, are leaders. Which is why they make a LS to begin with.

[Nordya]

I'm probably the only one that likes it when Anewie gets mad :D

But I do agree with some of their points.

[Daniel]

please stop derailing this thread with your stupid squabbles about how hard/easy it is to run an LS... its not relevant.

These trials are stupid and I can already see that its pretty obvious that only a few relic holders will get the 99 upgrade done, instead of the intended "Most". Should be kill DL 10 times or something like that, DL isn't that easy even with a group of 6 you still need a pretty specific setup to do it reliably.

[SNK]

Um.. one person at a time? Sure, the leader will go first, but the leader obviously does the most work and shoiuld have priority. This is not selfish, it's common sense.

What version of FFXI are you playing again? LOL

[Babekeke]

please stop derailing this thread with your stupid squabbles about how hard/easy it is to run an LS... its not relevant.

These trials are stupid and I can already see that its pretty obvious that only a few relic holders will get the 99 upgrade done, instead of the intended "Most". Should be kill DL 10 times or something like that, DL isn't that easy even with a group of 6 you still need a pretty specific setup to do it reliably.

Assuming that the requirements stay the same when the trial goes live on all servers, in 6 months time, 3 people on each server have the trial finished, and SE decide that it was maybe a bit hard afterall and add the items to more mobs or make the trial only 5 items. When the trial first came out for HMPs to upgrade everyone Q.Qd and said there was no way anyone will get 1500 of them. Maybe SE will add pouches for these items too? Who knows?

[Greatguardian]

please GG.You are not folling nobody.

Lol at your "linkshell" counting as a large scale endgame ls. Aww honey, bless your heart1 (aka B**c, please)

Running a ls that did sky,sea,einherjar,various hnms,dynamis 5 days a week. Yeas that took work and patience and im sure leaders of the legendary endgame shells back at 75 would agree.

It makes much more sense when you know who GG was before abyssea. Lolz. W.e im done arguing with u. Ur ls was so amazing gg! And it was SO EASY to lead too.

Because ACLARITY AND WINGSOFVANADIEL were SO AMAZING, SO PROACTIVE, SO ELITE! right GG?
AMIRITE? Lol, bless ur heart booboo

edit: yeah most ls leaders have IT EASY! AND THEYRE NOT EVEN ANY GOOD. gtfo. Its an embarrasment to the hard working shellleaders who did well by their members w.o taking advantage of them. U go around spouting bs about how easy their jobs were and how theyre still not any good. I could hav been the most hated player in xi, but at least im not a joke player kidding myself into the thought that i was so amazing and leading was so easy. dude ur ls was never that good, u were never that good and that hasnt changed since abyssea. its just no one cares how good u are now and u can sit down trying to front. ur ls was never large scale and you know it. so stop lyin.

lol wat. Wings was always a social shell that I took over after a friend quit. Or does ElectricMayhem not count now? Probably not, considering it did, you know, everything that you mentioned.

I don't need to front. The endgame scene on my server knows me. They've known me for a long time. You're just some piss-poor leader who feels the need to shove her self-pity on everyone else and demand priority on crap because "leading's hard work, guys".

Yeah, right. The FFXI population figured that scheme out years ago. Leaders in a competent shell don't innately deserve jack shit. Praise? Sure. Props? Sure. Respect? Sure. Higher pay? Naw, son.

[Dreamin]

Assuming that the requirements stay the same when the trial goes live on all servers, in 6 months time, 3 people on each server have the trial finished, and SE decide that it was maybe a bit hard afterall and add the items to more mobs or make the trial only 5 items. When the trial first came out for HMPs to upgrade everyone Q.Qd and said there was no way anyone will get 1500 of them. Maybe SE will add pouches for these items too? Who knows?

If you remember Tanaka's interview that was posted to Alla's forum, that is exactly how he operates. He make things extreme hard initially and then slowly lessen things out. If you look at the history of this game, it is exactly how it operates in most instances other than Abyssea - to those ppl who wants to comment about abyssea, please dont. my post is about the idiotic thinking of Tanaka and not about the good/bad on abyssea. Let's discuss the idiotic thinking of Tanaka and the dev team regarding how they think. Somehow they are still stuck in the 2004 mind frame.

[Raksha]

I see what you mean.
But hey lets think outside the box for a second. Gives us an ammo item that gets inscribed with the trial. The item is all jobs so youncan go whatever job you want for the fight. Get the kills on any job or combination of jobs and hand itin. Voila problem over.
It seems we could do it this way, and party setup would be no trouble at all.


The best way to do that would be have Arch DL drop a KI to everyone in alliance, then you turn in the KI to an NPC for an Umbral Marrow. Unles you can turn in the KI itself somehow.

[Kitkat]

Good old "My ls is better than your ls (besides I get all the uber lootz first cause leads rule)", which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic what so ever. This Anewie person seems to lavish the anonymity of the internet by purposely attacking individuals and dropping bait to incite fighting, so I just ignore them. If something of value or worth comes from people I pay attention, but if they prance around with their asshat spouting nonsense then on to the next post I go as should anyone else.

Back on topic, the whole "balance" act SE is going through while trying to add content is really starting to show that the dev team just doesn't have the resources to keep it up while taking feedback at face value. They should be working on the game like they used to, but adding content then do refined adjustments separate from other content development. Trying to do it all at the same time is having painfully obvious negative effects on the game as of recently.

[wish12oz]

You're gonna get hundreds doing an ADL run? Unlikely, especially with the DL rate nerf.

The fact is the trials are pretty fucking stupid and offers very little for non-relics at the cost of requiring an alliance to win. If I shout ADL, I can offer w/e shit currency falls from killing trash mobs, the drops from the popped NMs (which arent 100% drops), DL drops (largely shit) and ADL drops (not in high demand).

No one is going to waste their time helping people unless it's just for fun. The trial is designed poorly through and through. You having to bring up mules shows just how low demand would be to assist relic holders up to 99.

Way to not read the thread and think I like the trial or am supporting it somehow.

Also: Who doesn't try to always bring their mules with them everywhere? I triple box better then most can play one, so I'd prefer to bring mules most of the time. This will especially be true after I finish G horn for my BRD mule.

[Mahoro]

Also: Who doesn't try to always bring their mules with them everywhere? I triple box better then most can play one, so I'd prefer to bring mules most of the time. This will especially be true after I finish G horn for my BRD mule.

The people who, either by choice or financial circumstance, don't dual-box.

[Vold]

When the trial first came out for HMPs to upgrade everyone Q.Qd and said there was no way anyone will get 1500 of them. There is a distinct difference between saying "it's going to take years to do this if you don't have hundreds of millions of gil" and "no one is ever going to complete this" Anyone without money certainly will not ever finish it anytime remotely soon. Their proclaimed casual empyreans will stay lv90 max.

How many people do you honestly think will help a single soul get their lv99 weapon by killing ADL? How do you even go about convincing them? I'm not sure a pickup group could put a dent in the thing. Even a dedicated LS is going to have a hard time with this. What are they going to do? Flip a coin? Set up some playoff tree contest and the winner gets first dibs? Are they going to be content with sharing drops, one drop at a time goes to a different person until everyone is done? Goodluck to the leader if they try to play Mr. Dictator and take first dibs. But hey, you know, like I've said in the past one of the great things about a hardcore LS is that you rely on each other to push forward. As long as the next person is right there by you, BSing, not necessarily having fun but to endure bullshit together, it counts for something. And that's why such LSs have survived the Abyssea/level cap era while everyone outside of them keeps preaching, "linkshells/groups are dead!"

Maybe it is SE's way of saying look, we want people to play together. And that's fine. We'd play together on a mass scale... if content wasn't stupid on rewarding players. Like 20 ADL drops for stage 1 and 1000 for stage 2. It invites drama, nothing more. Just to be fair, for all we know SE is planning to have ADL drop more than just one item when these trials go live. But would I be in the wrong to say that SE has not earned the benefit of the doubt? I don't think so. I think their idea is to truly have 1x drop per kill, requires 20, and for 17 other people to help you do it. ADL is one of the more recently implemented NMs in the game. It has no business whatsoever having something to do with lv75 content. It may be for lv99 weapons but it's still lv75 content. The 550ish Mythic holders must be thanking God right about now. If things had been different on timing they'd be fighting a frickin Arch PW or some shit.

[Sparthos]

Way to not read the thread and think I like the trial or am supporting it somehow.

Also: Who doesn't try to always bring their mules with them everywhere? I triple box better then most can play one, so I'd prefer to bring mules most of the time. This will especially be true after I finish G horn for my BRD mule.

You're assuming dualboxing is the rule and not the exception.

It's a good perk to have but it doesn't excuse the lack of demand for ADL because SE can't be arsed to create some incentive for non-relics.

[Nynja]

The people who, either by choice or financial circumstance, don't dual-box.

If an extra 15 bucks is that much of a hindrance to your budget, perhaps you shouldnt be playing ffxi to begin with.

[Sparthos]

If an extra 15 bucks is that much of a hindrance to your budget, perhaps you shouldnt be playing ffxi to begin with.

Nonsensical argument.

If you don't want to pay for a second account (for whatever reason) you should still be able to do the most recent events released by SE due to sheer demand. Dead on arrival events like this ADL setup just show how little thought SE puts into some things they release (like WoE).

[FrankReynolds]

Having to play 3 characters because there is a lack of interest in content is a sure sign of a problem. If people feel like they need 2-3 characters to get anywhere in the game now, that is a very bad sign, not to mention a retarded amount of money to charge customers.

I'm not too poor to pay for them, but common... that makes FFXI probably the most expensive video game ever. Does the quality really match the price tag?

[Crysten]

If an extra 15 bucks is that much of a hindrance to your budget, perhaps you shouldnt be playing ffxi to begin with.

Holy generalizations, Batman!

[Anewie]

lol wat. Wings was always a social shell that I took over after a friend quit. Or does ElectricMayhem not count now? Probably not, considering it did, you know, everything that you mentioned.

I don't need to front. The endgame scene on my server knows me. They've known me for a long time. You're just some piss-poor leader who feels the need to shove her self-pity on everyone else and demand priority on crap because "leading's hard work, guys".

Yeah, right. The FFXI population figured that scheme out years ago. Leaders in a competent shell don't innately deserve jack shit. Praise? Sure. Props? Sure. Respect? Sure. Higher pay? Naw, son.

I'm not even a leader an endgame LS. Lol, my whole point was and still is, leader tend to work hard in thos bigger endgame shells, especially back at 75. And yes I agree they deserved priority on sponsorship and the rarer drops, not because they are the leaders by name, but because they are the leaders by action and example. I know you don't like me, I don't like you, but you need to realize what you're saying. You're essentially saying no leader deserve priority over other member because they are the leader. But who has more dedication and time spent helping the ls than a leader? Heres a question, why WOULDN'T a leader be more deserving a member?

You're missing the whole point in that leaders tend to be more dedicated than members, and yes they do tend to work harder. You're delusional if you think otherwise. Now, maybe in your nonexistant endgame LS,m you and the other leaders don't really need to do much of anything or work hard, but there were plenty of HNM and endgame LS leaders that proudly and honestly did a lot to keep the shells runnin on top.

Your basically saying that's not true and if it is, they didn't deserve priority on relic sponsorship or things like DEFENDING RING, in which case, you're wrong, BUT I can understand why someone so LOL back at 75 would think that.

The simple fact is, you had and still don't have much of any idea of what it takes to run or have ran a biggger endgame LS. I may not have had a good reputation for being a nice little flower, but I know running an endgame LS took dedication and persistence, and who are you to say what a LS leader doesn't deserve? You could argue I have no right to say what they do deserve, but who was the person sponsoring relic and getting those super rare drops: the leaders. Theres a reason for that and it's not necessarily because they were all greedy, self righteous gil hoarders.

[wish12oz]

You're assuming dualboxing is the rule and not the exception.

It's always been the rule, not the exception, for the better players to have mules.


Wanting to play 3 characters

Fixed that for you.

But you're right about the rest, the reason I WANT to play more then one, is because other people are so bad, and it really shouldn't be like that. Also, I'm not going to ask friends to help me with bad, not fun content, unless I HAVE to. That's last resort for me, because I like my friends and don't want to burden then with helping me do obnoxious stuff. It's to bad a lot of stuff in this game is not fun.

[Greatguardian]

Greedy, self-righteous gil hoarders? Nah.

Whiny, self-pitying clods if they honestly believed the drivel you're spouting? Definitely.

You've never even run an Endgame linkshell and you're telling me what it's like? Puh-leeze. Many leaders I've met have ended up like bitchy little girls after a while because, essentially, they're just not that good at delegating tasks and holding their members accountable. If you have to do everything for your members, you're not being a good leader at all.

Dedication? In good shells, it's not only the leaders who show dedication, persistence, and pride. It's the whole damn team. Do I work hard? Hell yes. Do I work all that much harder than anyone else? Hell no. I don't just work hard and expect everyone else to sit around and twiddle their thumbs. I work hard and expect everyone else to work hard right alongside me. I lead by example, sister.

Does a leader deserve nice shit? Sure. But so does everyone else. The leader is no more deserving than everyone else in a shell that's run properly. Wanna know a secret? Many shells aren't. Many shells shove all the work on the leader because your average pearl in those shells can't be assed to be knowledgeable about basic battle strategies and game mechanics.

Here's a nice rule of thumb, though. If your leader actually believes that they deserve more than their members by virtue of putting in the effort to lead, they are most likely a terrible leader. Leaders don't whine and complain about how hard it is to lead. They don't drown themselves in self-pity. Those are terrible leaders. And the ones that claim priority without the pity party? Those are just ripping you off.

Just because you've obviously never been in a linkshell that's worth a damn doesn't mean your outmoded, woefully extrapolated concept of "Leadership" is remotely accurate in the real world.

PS: The reason many shell leaders end up devolving into impotent masses of self pity is because their members really, really suck. Why would a leader take on 100% of the responsibility? Only real reason is because they don't trust their members to do their work themselves. Leaders burn out and become overworked when there is too large a gap between the skill of the leader and the skill of their members.

Good shells are filled with members that are just as good as each of their leaders. Real talk.

[Anewie]

Greedy, self-righteous gil hoarders? Nah.

Whiny, self-pitying clods if they honestly believed the drivel you're spouting? Definitely.

You've never even run an Endgame linkshell and you're telling me what it's like? Puh-leeze. Many leaders I've met have ended up like bitchy little girls after a while because, essentially, they're just not that good at delegating tasks and holding their members accountable. If you have to do everything for your members, you're not being a good leader at all.

Dedication? In good shells, it's not only the leaders who show dedication, persistence, and pride. It's the whole damn team. Do I work hard? Hell yes. Do I work all that much harder than anyone else? Hell no. I don't just work hard and expect everyone else to sit around and twiddle their thumbs. I work hard and expect everyone else to work hard right alongside me. I lead by example, sister.

Does a leader deserve nice shit? Sure. But so does everyone else. The leader is no more deserving than everyone else in a shell that's run properly. Wanna know a secret? Many shells aren't. Many shells shove all the work on the leader because your average pearl in those shells can't be assed to be knowledgeable about basic battle strategies and game mechanics.

Here's a nice rule of thumb, though. If your leader actually believes that they deserve more than their members by virtue of putting in the effort to lead, they are most likely a terrible leader. Leaders don't whine and complain about how hard it is to lead. They don't drown themselves in self-pity. Those are terrible leaders. And the ones that claim priority without the pity party? Those are just ripping you off.

Just because you've obviously never been in a linkshell that's worth a damn doesn't mean your outmoded, woefully extrapolated concept of "Leadership" is remotely accurate in the real world.

PS: The reason many shell leaders end up devolving into impotent masses of self pity is because their members really, really suck. Why would a leader take on 100% of the responsibility? Only real reason is because they don't trust their members to do their work themselves. Leaders burn out and become overworked when there is too large a gap between the skill of the leader and the skill of their members.

Good shells are filled with members that are just as good as each of their leaders. Real talk.

Was never a question that leaders and members can be equally deserving of nice things. I said I am not a leader of an endgame LS, unlike you, I don't consider doing abyssea with 5 other people to be "LEADING AN ENDGAME LS" lol. No. So yeah, I'm not running an endgame LS.

Someone asked in another post why any shell would be greedy enough to focus on one single person at a time for stage99 relic sponsorship, and asked who would it be, I stated it would likely be a leader and an officer and then HERE comes GG saying it would be selfish of them to pick a leader first.

You can try and derail and trash talk all you want, but it's not goin work booboo. The only difference between our opinions is:


YOU don't think leaders or officers are EVER more deserving of sponsorship or the more rare drops than any other members, because it's not fair.

My argument is that because a leader or officer more than likely does put in more dedication and work, they would and do deserve it, if only by the simple fact that they have put in more work and time into the shell. THAT IS FAIR.

You call trash talk them all you want but it's obviously you're just mad cause you probably couldn't have everything you wanted, when you wanted it. Did a LS leader jip you GG? Aww u poor thing.

Get over it, not every LS leader is a douche, just you and yours were. That's too bad.

Members and leaders are equally deserving of nice things, but priority should goto the people who worked the hardest and put in the most work.

REAL TALK BRO!

EDIT: oh so you're saying you don't work or do any better than any other member, Oh ok so you don't deserve priority. I AGREE, you don't. But That's you honey, and not everyone shares your opinion. Consider the shells you "ran", a grain a salt must be taken tbh.

[Alerith]

There's so much "lol" and nerd rage in Anewie's past two posts, I'm gonna need a half hour to formulate a response without simply laughing at her/him/it

EDIT:

You're a prime example of why the little people always got screwed in the old dynamis shells Anewie. Linkshell leaders do more work than the average member. How hard that work is seems to be something we will never agree on.

Just because you don't have time in your life schedule to effectively run a Dynamis shell does not make it hard. It means you don't have to time to run it and probably shouldn't be running it or that you didn't delegate your tasks properly.

But to say that leaders and officers should have priority because they are leaders and officers is completely asinine. Simple spreadsheet and computer work does should not instantly bump you up to the top of the relic list.

And as for your example, why should the leader get the Defending Ring first? Shouldn't it go to someone in the shell who can make better use of it like the LS PLD (assuming the leader isn't the LS PLD) who will be able to apply the ring towards future shell events?

Remember how Dynamis Lord drops used to work? PLD had priority on Shadow items because they could make better use of them for the shell than just handing them off to the leader.

And by the way, who are usually the officers in a linkshell like that? Friends of the leader you say? Interesting...

Oh, and let's not forget the "leaders" who finished their relics then left.

[Nordya]

All this talk about leaders and entitlement, it's just so depressing. I knew a few shells back then who worked like that, people backstabbing others for their precious relic, heck I got my relic armor ninja'ed by the dynamis shell leader back in 06. In fact last end game ls I tried was like this, the leaders get their stuff done, hours of farming to pop the boss nms to see them get their stuff. It wasn't for me.

I guess I have evolved from all this, I don't care to be told that I'm a WoW weakling or anything, WoW was actually fun for the years I spent on it. In the end, it all comes down to are you having fun? Since the 95 cap patch, I haven't really enjoyed this game. Now I'm on The Old Republic, and I am having fun. One of my oldest FFXI friend, that had his account since 04 and only time he hadn't paid it was during hurricane Katrina left because he wasn't having fun anymore.

But now that opens up a new can of worms. What actually is fun on FFXI?

[Anewie]

There's so much "lol" and nerd rage in Anewie's past two posts, I'm gonna need a half hour to formulate a response without simply laughing at her/him/it

http://www.vesperala.com/style_emoticons/default/emo-coffee.gif

[Greatguardian]

Stockholm Syndrome, bro. All I can think of for this chick. Does she really like being taken advantage of that much?

[wish12oz]

My LS is awesome+1

Can I join your LS?

[Anewie]

Stockholm Syndrome, bro. All I can think of for this chick. Does she really like being taken advantage of that much?

http://i51.tinypic.com/wupksg.jpg

[Greatguardian]

Can I join your LS?

Wrong server bro D:

[Seankp]

I think this is probably the best way to make this acceptable to everyone.

Single Umbral Marrow from Dynamis Lord.
Multiple Umbral Marrow from Arch Dynamis Lord. IE... pouches with 5-15 in them.

This would make it on the same level of difficulty as 10 PW pops now with the HUGE change in Zeni per pic, as shown on BG here: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings/page162

I'd be perfectly happy with Dynamis Lord dropping 1 per kill.

[Camate]

We have been seeing a lot of pretty fierce comments in regards to the trials to upgrade Relic/Mythic/Empyrean weapons and I feel the need to comment on a couple of things.

The number of items necessary
Let me start off with an explanation and apology.

While we did mention that the number was temporary, it seems like many of you misunderstood that and took the numbers we posted as indicators of the actual values. Instead, we should have used numbers like 1 or 9999 to make it abundantly clearer that these numbers were temporary.

I do not want to risk confusing you all even more, so I will make this simple. The difficulty (as well as time necessary) of obtaining the items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will be, in order of increasing difficulty, Mythic > Relic > Empyrean. As such, the number of items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will not be the same between the sets of trials.

As an adjustment to the time required for both creating and enhancing Mythic weapons, we are trying to increase the amount of zeni received for each soulplate traded, so you receive over 10 times the amount. (Currently on the test server the data has been changed so you receive 15 times as much)

With this as a basis, we are currently looking into and testing the appropriate amount of items, as well as the content of trials up until now and the obtainment paths for the required items. Once the amount has been decided after the investigation, we will be announcing the information along with the detailed thought process behind it.

In the meantime, we ask that you please stop focusing discussions on the idea that these values on the test server are the actual values that are to be implemented.
　
　
　
The accuracy of the content implemented on the test server
Regarding content implemented on the test server, we have been receiving comments stating that it is not right to implement content that has yet to be finalized.

We understand that some of these comments may come from players who have not read our posts or the information released with the road map, but I would like to explain again, because the test server is an important aspect of future version updates, as well as our development and QA procedures.

In general, please consider content implemented on the test server as content that is either in development, needing adjustments or in the process of being adjusted.

As soon as content is implemented on the test server, not only do players have a chance to test out the new content, the development and QA teams also perform balance checks and bug screening. It would be possible to delay player access to the test server, but this would shorten the time that players are able to submit feedback, which may lead to unnecessary delays. Therefore, we have our current test server for the benefit of all involved, so we would appreciate if you understand the reasoning behind our current implementation strategy.

[Insaniac]

The shared concern seems to be that an item trial makes 0 sense. It makes even less sense when you consider that the item comes from content requiring 18+ people and it starts getting really stupid when the same items required for stage 1 are required for stage 2. Most people are aware that the number is temporary but even if lowered to 5 there are still far too many relics in circulation for this trial to be considered something that most PCs will complete and the demand for these items to complete stage 1 means that stage 2 is no longer just a virtual impossibility it is now literally impossible.

Stage 1 needs to be rebuilt and rethought from the ground up. Lowering the number of items required does not fix it.

[Insaniac]

Ehhhh, shoot the messenger ect. ect. Camate is just posting a translation of something Mochi posted on the JP forums which was probably handed to him by some jerk we have never heard of. Less comrep bashing more constructive ideas.

[Nynja]

The original post did state the numbers were temporary...but it was probably an attempted failsafe to the explosion that would ensue. Please remember Camate, test server had 1500 metal plates, we thought it was a placeholder number an would be fixed cuz 1500 is nuts...it wasnt.

20/10/60 had to have been concieved somewhere otherwise they wouldnt have been used. Imo atm the difficulty goes emp, being easiest, then mythic (with proposed 10x zeni change), and far far far away are relics. If u take out the Zeni change, mythics and relics are well behind the pack to emps. Alima and rex are routinely farmed, therefor rift dross/ciner will be created all the time, PW is farmed very rarely, ADL gets killed almost never. With the zeni change, If youre getting 1k per naul, you can have enough zeni for 1 person 3 boxing a pw pop in 7 hours, instead of 70, which is a major improvment. Someone hardcore, who wants to get their weapon finished in due time can get the zeni in 10 days, if they turnin 7x a day.

Relics need some serious adjustment.

[Nynja]

Also want to point out...had there not been such rage about the trial numbers, would SE have left them as is?

Just make a little story line to it, for relics:
"the true essence of your weapon has been found, imbued within the soul of the ADL. Defeat the fiend wirlding your weapon and watch its true power come forth"

All u had to do at 75 for last stage was defeat animated weapon lol

[wish12oz]

I think most people were afraid if they did not speak up, the numbers originally posted would of been what was required. Since we got so screwed over on heavy metal plates, as was previously stated. And I really really hope you can convince the Devs the the required numbers need to be drastically reduced or more bloody murder will be screamed.

[Juilan]

Camate, my post on what the Trials should be like were far more balanced and rational than what the the dev team has proposed. If they killed the ADL with a lv 95 relic say roughly 3 people and spent the time with the two hour limit in dynamis (and conning 15 people into helping) they'd notice how absurd the ADL drop items are. You may be able to get one pop every 3 days if you're an average player... but convincing 18 or so people in the ls to spend even 2 weeks on the non-glow part, you have too much faith in people who use dynamis as a means of income. Most of the people I play with, if not all the people i play with, wouldn't be that devoted to a -5% increase to my magic damage taken since it'd take less time for them to start a second account and book/abyssea burn a whm/rdm to 95 with all the subs than it wouldnt to finish stage 1 (even with 5 items). We're not shooting the messager, but we are giving you our criticism and utter disgust with the team you are the messager for since it seems there is no other channel other than these forums to voice said disgust.

[SpankWustler]

At this point, the major complaint is that Stage 1 is just a snack-sized Stage 2. I was really hoping the two trials would work together rather than making each other worse.

I'd put the earlier concerns in an odd context. If someone tells you there's a 1% chance that an atomic bomb will be dropped on everyone and everything you love, that 1% chance suddenly seems horrifying. You'll drop everything just to fight that 1% chance with all your blood and tears and snot. Lots and lots of snots. Probably even if the chance was 0.1%.

That's how the numbers for the trials looked before Stage 1 was mentioned. A low chance of something really, really bad happening. Most people were aware that the number might be changed or something else might be implemented, but the fear that it might not was huge because of how awful those trials would have been. So, it was important to state that such nightmarish numbers would not be acceptable.




As an adjustment to the time required for both creating and enhancing Mythic weapons, we are trying to increase the amount of zeni received for each soulplate traded, so you receive over 10 times the amount. (Currently on the test server the data has been changed so you receive 15 times as much)

To add a drop of positivity here...This is an amazing change. It's more than anyone dared to hope for, but exactly what was needed.

[Coldbrand]

Can you look into adjusting Camlann's Torment while we're discussing Empyreans? Please? You nerfed the good ones, how about buffing the iffy ones?

Better yet, are the adjustments to all weaponskills coming like you said still? Or are you just leaving it at +40/30% for relics/mythics (and seemingly nothing for empyreans)?

[FrankReynolds]

We have been seeing a lot of pretty fierce comments in regards to the trials to upgrade Relic/Mythic/Empyrean weapons and I feel the need to comment on a couple of things.

The number of items necessary
Let me start off with an explanation and apology.

While we did mention that the number was temporary, it seems like many of you misunderstood that and took the numbers we posted as indicators of the actual values. Instead, we should have used numbers like 1 or 9999 to make it abundantly clearer that these numbers were temporary.

I do not want to risk confusing you all even more, so I will make this simple. The difficulty (as well as time necessary) of obtaining the items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will be, in order of increasing difficulty, Mythic > Relic > Empyrean. As such, the number of items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will not be the same between the sets of trials.

Well... first off, You guys screwed everyone with the metal plates. Then you acted surprised when everyone saw the dats from the test server with 500 items needed and reacted poorly. This is the third time you have put something stupid that virtually no one agrees with into the ultimate weapon trials. Why would we expect anything less than the absolute worst at this point?

Instead of telling us not to worry about the ticking time bomb in the room, how about using that new poll feature to get some feedback. You guys really need some solid data, because from what I've seen in game and on various forums, it would be surprising if even 5% of your customers like the 90-99 trials.

One of two things could happen. Either :
A) the poll shows that there really are a lot of people that like that stuff, and people just need to settle down.
or
B) the poll shows that you guys really need to fix that crap because your customers hate it.

Either way, you win because you get to make a game that people like.

Beating us to death while telling us that you love us is pretty demented.

[Washburn]

I'd say raising the rate at which you recieve Zeni is fine an all, but still requiring people to so that many P-dubs is "we todd did". I'd suggest raising the zeni, for sure, but at the same time, make the requirement more like killing P-dub 3x, not 10 items, 5 items, or even 1 item, unless those items are going to be in pouches like the heavy metal plates are (where you're guaranteed at least 5, but a max of 15)

[DrForester]

We have been seeing a lot of pretty fierce comments in regards to the trials to upgrade Relic/Mythic/Empyrean weapons and I feel the need to comment on a couple of things.

The number of items necessary
Let me start off with an explanation and apology.

While we did mention that the number was temporary, it seems like many of you misunderstood that and took the numbers we posted as indicators of the actual values. Instead, we should have used numbers like 1 or 9999 to make it abundantly clearer that these numbers were temporary.

I do not want to risk confusing you all even more, so I will make this simple. The difficulty (as well as time necessary) of obtaining the items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will be, in order of increasing difficulty, Mythic > Relic > Empyrean. As such, the number of items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will not be the same between the sets of trials.

As an adjustment to the time required for both creating and enhancing Mythic weapons, we are trying to increase the amount of zeni received for each soulplate traded, so you receive over 10 times the amount. (Currently on the test server the data has been changed so you receive 15 times as much)

With this as a basis, we are currently looking into and testing the appropriate amount of items, as well as the content of trials up until now and the obtainment paths for the required items. Once the amount has been decided after the investigation, we will be announcing the information along with the detailed thought process behind it.

In the meantime, we ask that you please stop focusing discussions on the idea that these values on the test server are the actual values that are to be implemented.


I have to be reading this wrong. Mythic is going to require the most time and effort to upgrade? It's already nearly impossible to obtain a mythic and you're making it have the hardest magian upgrade? Seriously, one single part of the Mythic Weapon quests requires twice the effort required for an entire relic weapon, and you're going to make it harder for people who go through that to upgrade?

You've unbalanced dynamis so much that people are getting Relic weapons left and right, yet all you're going to do for Mythic is increase the Alex drop rate rather than address the incredibly unbalanced reality that you need to obtain nearly twice as much Alexandrite as you do ancient currency (and Alexandrite is only part of the Mythic weapon quest line).

What the heck is wrong with you people...

[Raksha]

I have to be reading this wrong. Mythic is going to require the most time and effort to upgrade? It's already nearly impossible to obtain a mythic and you're making it have the hardest magian upgrade? Seriously, one single part of the Mythic Weapon quests requires twice the effort required for an entire relic weapon, and you're going to make it harder for people who go through that to upgrade?

You've unbalanced dynamis so much that people are getting Relic weapons left and right, yet all you're going to do for Mythic is increase the Alex drop rate rather than address the incredibly unbalanced reality that you need to obtain nearly twice as much Alexandrite as you do ancient currency (and Alexandrite is only part of the Mythic weapon quest line).

What the heck is wrong with you people...


I think it's poorly worded.

He said in order of lowest to highest, which would mean emps are the hardest.

the greater-than-signs don't help though.

[Alhanelem]

The difficulty (as well as time necessary) of obtaining the items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will be, in order of increasing difficulty, Mythic > Relic > Empyrean.Rest of the post notwithstanding, isn't this backwards? I mean, using greater than signs, the list is right, but you said before it that it was in order of increasing difficulty.


With this as a basis, we are currently looking into and testing the appropriate amount of items, as well as the content of trials up until now and the obtainment paths for the required items. Once the amount has been decided after the investigation, we will be announcing the information along with the detailed thought process behind it.

What people really want is for these trials to be kill based, not item based. This way it's possible for people to work on their weapons at the same time, which is especially important for pandemonium warden, because you are not going to coinvince 17 fellow players to kill Pandy Warden for you when they don't get anything out of it (Don't try to tell us they do, PW's drops are basically obsolete now). Getting people to help you is going to be the hardest part of any of these trials as a result of them being item based.

[Insaniac]

Mythics will be the 2nd easiest just because you will be able to buy the emp items. It may cost you 60 mil but I would much rather farm dynamis for 3 weeks than worry about building 3-10 PW sets. If relic and mythic items came from mobs that people actually killed and there was a chance of them being on the market for less than 20 mil then it would for sure be mythic < relic < emp but the way its set up now its emp < mythic << relic.

[Damane]

The problem is no the number of items needed. The problem is the TRIAL ITSELF!

As it looks now we have from easy to hard: empy ----> mythic -----> relic. This whole trial is a slap into my face after putting 1.5 years back then to get my bravura. The trial is also a fucking slap into the face of mythic holders. Considering through how much shit they have to go through, their weapon should auto ding to lvl 99.

Pls for godsake change the trial to something lowmanable. Noone wants to mollest 17 people just to upgrade 1 weapon for one relic holder its just NOT realistic. Implement lowmanable trials.
Make it 5 normal Dynamis Lord KILLs, but not fuckign ArchDynamisLord items, for Relics.
Make it 1 specific assault cleared for mythic, while wearing the weapon.

The times have changed, people DO NOT have anymore the firepower of a 36+man Linkshell and its never gonna happen again.

[Babygyrl]

We have been seeing a lot of pretty fierce comments in regards to the trials to upgrade Relic/Mythic/Empyrean weapons and I feel the need to comment on a couple of things.

The number of items necessary
Let me start off with an explanation and apology.

While we did mention that the number was temporary, it seems like many of you misunderstood that and took the numbers we posted as indicators of the actual values. Instead, we should have used numbers like 1 or 9999 to make it abundantly clearer that these numbers were temporary.

I do not want to risk confusing you all even more, so I will make this simple. The difficulty (as well as time necessary) of obtaining the items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will be, in order of increasing difficulty, Mythic > Relic > Empyrean. As such, the number of items necessary to upgrade each type of gear will not be the same between the sets of trials.

As an adjustment to the time required for both creating and enhancing Mythic weapons, we are trying to increase the amount of zeni received for each soulplate traded, so you receive over 10 times the amount. (Currently on the test server the data has been changed so you receive 15 times as much)

With this as a basis, we are currently looking into and testing the appropriate amount of items, as well as the content of trials up until now and the obtainment paths for the required items. Once the amount has been decided after the investigation, we will be announcing the information along with the detailed thought process behind it.

In the meantime, we ask that you please stop focusing discussions on the idea that these values on the test server are the actual values that are to be implemented.
　
　
　
The accuracy of the content implemented on the test server
Regarding content implemented on the test server, we have been receiving comments stating that it is not right to implement content that has yet to be finalized.

We understand that some of these comments may come from players who have not read our posts or the information released with the road map, but I would like to explain again, because the test server is an important aspect of future version updates, as well as our development and QA procedures.

In general, please consider content implemented on the test server as content that is either in development, needing adjustments or in the process of being adjusted.

As soon as content is implemented on the test server, not only do players have a chance to test out the new content, the development and QA teams also perform balance checks and bug screening. It would be possible to delay player access to the test server, but this would shorten the time that players are able to submit feedback, which may lead to unnecessary delays. Therefore, we have our current test server for the benefit of all involved, so we would appreciate if you understand the reasoning behind our current implementation strategy.

No offense dude, but isn't the ENTIRE point of a test server and a forum, is to comment/complain/express opinion on the CURRENT test data? Yes we get that its temporary, even still, there is a chance this will BE the final content, and if we dont say something NOW that we dont like it, it will be implemented. The "Current" trials on the test server Stink, temporary or not.

[Babygyrl]

The problem is no the number of items needed. The problem is the TRIAL ITSELF!

As it looks now we have from easy to hard: empy ----> mythic -----> relic. This whole trial is a slap into my face after putting 1.5 years back then to get my bravura. The trial is also a fucking slap into the face of mythic holders. Considering through how much shit they have to go through, their weapon should auto ding to lvl 99.

Pls for godsake change the trial to something lowmanable. Noone wants to mollest 17 people just to upgrade 1 weapon for one relic holder its just NOT realistic. Implement lowmanable trials.
Make it 5 normal Dynamis Lord KILLs, but not fuckign ArchDynamisLord items, for Relics.
Make it 1 specific assault cleared for mythic, while wearing the weapon.

The times have changed, people DO NOT have anymore the firepower of a 36+man Linkshell and its never gonna happen again.

And this says it so nicely, i completely agree with it, no more fetch quests for trials!

[Helel]

Ok there are a lot of problems here:

If mythics and relics require PW and ADL drops*, I still believe empyreans will take the cake for the easiest weapon to upgrade 95>99. Yet the devs seem to think they are the hardest? Rift---- items are very easy to get and you have an unlimited amount of attempts at farming them. ADL and PW drops have to be lot on by the other 17 people that are with you. Your whole awesome VW loot system (sarcasm) actually comes through here.

Relic upgrades will require players to sacrifice millions of gil for a chance at an ADL drop. You don't have to sacrifice anything for farming rift---- items; in fact, you might get a cool item that you always wanted in the process. Plus, you can farm dynamis, sell the currency, and buy up the rift---- items easily. Again, empyrean upgrades are a joke compared to relic/mythic.

The final problem is more confusion than anything else: why do you want the empyrean upgrades to be the hardest? Most of them have fallen behind their relic/mythic counterparts (and some of them were always behind) so I'm kind of at a loss here.

[Nynja]

I'd say raising the rate at which you recieve Zeni is fine an all, but still requiring people to so that many P-dubs is "we todd did". I'd suggest raising the zeni, for sure, but at the same time, make the requirement more like killing P-dub 3x, not 10 items, 5 items, or even 1 item, unless those items are going to be in pouches like the heavy metal plates are (where you're guaranteed at least 5, but a max of 15)

I dont mind the mythic trial is zeni are offered at 10x value on plates. You can do majority of the legwork on ur own time and rally troops for pw kills. The fact u cant do it in 1 day with no effort is nothing to bitch about. You cant do that for relic cuz the adl pop items drop from mobs that are still a challenge to a pt of 99s.

[Vold]

Even SE themselves question their decision with wording like "people will likely finish this" That is saying a lot. Nothing I say tops that. If SE feels it's going too far, it probably is. Rethink the trial or rethink ADL. One or the other. Either we can love you or hate you. It's your choice.

But like, are you guys trying to be the Ty Cobb of MMO developers? You've done so well up to this point with the trials and it's now all like... we want to be the Ty Cobb of MMO developers. We've had enough of this Babe Ruth shit for the past two years.

[Coldbrand]

I think now is the appropriate time for the Hachiryu/Shelong/Dorje/Nanatsusaya augments.

[VoiceMemo]

Perhaps SE does not understand the implications/cultural differences of people's ways of thinking.

To elaborate.

Before dynamis changes:
500k-1mil gil fee for the hourglass. Before you could justify/rationalize the help of 18+ people because if not for the funder to pay for the hourglass, the runs might not happen. So you could justify they getting all the currency. Granted yes this is not the way SE intended. Their vision was that every player contribute gil for the cost of the hourglass. The reality of it was that players did not want to do this way, at least in the North American region(as far as I can tell). This is why large dynamis shells existed.

After dynamis changes:
Dynamis is now accessible to anyone that can pay the one time fee of 50k. With this the player mindset has changed, because of this large dynamis shells have basically died. It's now all lowman, small groups. In the players mindset there is no justification of helping out and teaming up so 1 person can get an item.

So basically SE, IMO, brought this series of events on themselves. Because of the changes it only points to lowman groups for the North American/EU region. I believe the issue comes from cultural/upbringing differences between Japan and America/EU. That the Japanese players are more likely to team up vs the America/EU.

Granted now I'm only generalizing and stating my opinion. I for one continue to do dynamis to help those that helped me achieve relic from the days that required you to buy hourglasses. I do dynamis for basically nothing but to help those others that helped me get currency. I know not many share this way of thinking/loyalty but there probably are some out there that do have it.

I for one think that yes the final trial for relic should deal with something about teaming up. The way I've always viewed dynamis as a group of people teaming up for a singular effort. The more that stay with the group the more could complete relic in time. Back in the days of fee dynamis, I calculated with the appropriate numbers to kill we could complete a relic every 7 months. So "Ideally" yes, the final relic upgrade should have a team up aspect. Realistically though, with the way the game is now I don't really see it happening.

[Washburn]

I still haven't bought crysta. Camate, tell them i'll give them fifteen bucks to make the trial reasonable, and kill based, not item based.

[Kitkat]

Camate, sorry....Bang! ~shoots the messenger and gets a defending ring~ :o

Anyway, the problem here isn't the fact of the number so much as the trial itself. Wording it in a way that says "Stage 1 will be set in such a way that most users with appropriate gear will complete" is vastly different from the trial that has been given. Emp has already had to collect items off VWNM for the last 3 trials, about the only positive to this is that they are getting items off content still done. Mythics and relics are being forced to continue to do content that no one wants to do in excess quantities because the trial requires an amount of fights per weapon user while offering little of nothing to the individuals helping because the drops are so outdated they aren't particularly useful to the individuals at all.

What was so wrong with collaborative kills? Is SE afraid that allowing people to get their lvl 99 to stage 1 is that overpowered? Stage 1 and stage 2 should not just be different amounts, but different requirements too. Especially if the "made as so that the majority of users will complete stage 1" comment is true.

[Dekusuta]

Perhaps SE does not understand the implications/cultural differences of people's ways of thinking.

To elaborate.

Before dynamis changes:
500k-1mil gil fee for the hourglass. Before you could justify/rationalize the help of 18+ people because if not for the funder to pay for the hourglass, the runs might not happen. So you could justify they getting all the currency. Granted yes this is not the way SE intended. Their vision was that every player contribute gil for the cost of the hourglass. The reality of it was that players did not want to do this way, at least in the North American region(as far as I can tell). This is why large dynamis shells existed.

After dynamis changes:
Dynamis is now accessible to anyone that can pay the one time fee of 50k. With this the player mindset has changed, because of this large dynamis shells have basically died. It's now all lowman, small groups. In the players mindset there is no justification of helping out and teaming up so 1 person can get an item.

So basically SE, IMO, brought this series of events on themselves. Because of the changes it only points to lowman groups for the North American/EU region. I believe the issue comes from cultural/upbringing differences between Japan and America/EU. That the Japanese players are more likely to team up vs the America/EU.

Granted now I'm only generalizing and stating my opinion. I for one continue to do dynamis to help those that helped me achieve relic from the days that required you to buy hourglasses. I do dynamis for basically nothing but to help those others that helped me get currency. I know not many share this way of thinking/loyalty but there probably are some out there that do have it.

I for one think that yes the final trial for relic should deal with something about teaming up. The way I've always viewed dynamis as a group of people teaming up for a singular effort. The more that stay with the group the more could complete relic in time. Back in the days of fee dynamis, I calculated with the appropriate numbers to kill we could complete a relic every 7 months. So "Ideally" yes, the final relic upgrade should have a team up aspect. Realistically though, with the way the game is now I don't really see it happening.


Too much cultural relativism. Japanese players do benefit from all being in the same timezone, but the the NA players had no problem fielding large teams back 3-4 years ago, some still do. But as a rule, most groups are smaller and play less now, and the differing time zones have narrowed the window of large groups playing together to a few hours a day, or even only on weekends now.

The fact of the matter is, the game has changed. People who started playing in 2004-2006 in school or university, graduated, got jobs, got married, had children. Or want to take it easy.

That is pretty much 90% of the message in this thread. Trying to rationalize SE's decisions with cultural relativity does the NA and EU community a disservice. Even assuming the premise you put forward is 100% true, which I don't think it is, We're not any less of a human being as consumers, just because the devs in Japan decided to make events that wouldn't suit us.

I do agree with you that the updates in the past 2 years have pointed towards a very different kind of game and for them to suddenly pull back and say 'oh by the way, you need to do 1,000 of these kills for 1 person's benefit' is callous. That I agree with you. They set themselves up for failure there.

At the end of the day, this game has a global audience and an aging one. SE appears to have not considered all the consequences and I'd hate for them to reconsider it by shaving off 10% off the trial requirements. That would be the worst case.

We need to push for a rethink

[Atomic_Skull]

And yet strangely you're still the anonymous one who thinks Trashtar is better than Mandau...k troll




Lots of relics are stronger then empyreans, and have been since day one, like dagger. Now quit trolling.

Please note that "troll" does not mean "someone who's opinion differs from my own"


People in here talk like no one plays in a LS anymore. Granted, the balance has shifted towards lowman content, but is seriously no one of you in a LS that would be willing to help their own relic owners with ADL?

That's pretty much what it is. They abandoned their big shells when Abyssea came out because they thought they would never need them again and now they are screwed because they tossed away the system of mutual support and personal favors they had built up over several years to dual box everything in godmode land never imagining that SE might make a U turn. Now they are raging because they're going to have to go back to a big shell and work their way up from the bottom again if they want to finish their relics.

[Nala]

thing is you are a troll though, look back at your many posts on the blood rage nerfs and all the tasty tear comments.

[Nynja]

Please note that "troll" does not mean "someone who's opinion differs from my own"



That's pretty much what it is. They abandoned their big shells when Abyssea came out because they thought they would never need them again and now they are screwed because they tossed away the system of mutual support and personal favors they had built up over several years to dual box everything in godmode land never imagining that SE might make a U turn. Now they are raging because they're going to have to go back to a big shell and work their way up from the bottom again if they want to finish their relics.

Your opinion of "Twashtar is better than mandau" is as much of an opinion as "full perle/pink is the best armor set to use"...aka you're trolling.

who dropped shells cuz you could MNK+WHM glavoid? It just means the cliques in certain LS's became more restricted.

[Muras]

Perhaps the Dev team could add multiple trials for us to do that lead to the same result, much like the relic armor +2? For example, they can keep their ridiculous trials that involve Pandemonium Warden/Arch Dynamis Lord/whatever else, but add another trial that's perhaps lowman but equally challenging? Like, maybe make it so that you need x amount of forgotten items equivalent to the other trial (Whatever it may be) to upgrade, say, Apocalypse. Variety and choice is good, didn't you know?

The dev team still seems to be living in the past, and making design choices that worked in the early 2000s. The game itself has changed a lot over the years, and more recently the player base has moved away from huge group content. Some hate this, but I think most like this. Most modern MMOs are going this direction. The reason is because smart game developers are realising most people in the world have a life, and they can't spend hours upon hours doing one little thing. This includes gathering up an army of people. Most people can only log on for an hour or two at most per day, sometimes only a few times a week. So, when you design MMO content, which way will draw in more people and make your company more money? Making stuff that people can do, and do right now and not later and actually ENJOY, or making frustrating, hair pulling, time consuming nonsense?

The devs seriously need to stop and just look at the game through the eyes of the player for once. Most people aren't gonna bother doing these trials. And maybe that's intentional. But I have to ask, why? Do the devs feel good going to bed every day knowing that only a small portion of their customers are doing content they worked on for who knows how long? And I don't just mean Voidwatch. I'm talking about Ballista, Brenner, Chocobo Racing, ANNMs, Walk of Echoes, the new KCNMs.

I remember an interview with one of the devs a long time ago, I can't remember who it was, but they said they don't add rewards to a lot of the events I mentioned because it'd take away from it's "charm". But I have to ask, what charm is there in an event nobody does? Ballista is fun, but I can't enjoy it because nobody else is motivated to do it. And in comparison, is this what they think relics/mythics/empys are too? If too many people have them it takes away from their charm or, as they once put it when adding mythics, the "prestige" of the weapon? Who in their right mind enjoys gawking at a few select people who have something you'll never get to have? How are we to motivate others to help if they too likely want upgrade items? The chance at other, less desirable, low drop rate items? If you ask me, the dev team is planting the seeds of depression, and the motivation to quit.

I've said this in a previous post a long time ago, but... Can't the devs just do what we say for once? Even if it's just on the test server so we can actually see if the game really breaks? They're so worried about "balance" but how can they claim that when they don't even try what we say? As others have mentioned, what is the test server for? Why does it seem like all our feedback is always ignored except for pointless stuff like the order of things in the outpost teleport NPC menus? Games are supposed to be fun, not depressing and frustrating. What on earth is apparently wrong with these game developers?

Get some surveys out to ask and find out if everyone really hates all this crap, but as far as I'm concerned the players have spoken, and the devs need to stop acting like dictators. Let's see some change already.

[Francisco]

I'm just going to echo a bunch of points people already made for me...

- The anger of the yet-to-be-implemented trials is justified. There is so much resentment of the dev. team's recent actions right now, that we just assume we're going to get screwed over.

- 1500 Heavy Metal plates is pretty harsh, but no one thought it would be this bad when it was implemented. No one complained, and we got stuck with a horrible trial.

- The Alexanderite requirement for mythics has always been insane, and next to nothing has been done to fix this.

- We basically have ZERO faith or reason to believe that once something is implemented like this, it will ever be made easier, ESPECIALLY if some masochist burns through it. Heavy Metal and Alexanderite requirements should both be drastically lowered - but we won't see this happen. Why? It wouldn't be fair to the .01% of players who completed the trials.

[Karbuncle]

Its not so much the Quantity that BS Camate, its the fact that Arch Dynamis Lord is a fight that boils down to Dumbluck and a proverbial "Door A or Door B" Type Fight, and Even if you just needed 1 per relic to finish, Its still crap because of the shear amount of people you need for the fight.

Most of them likely Relic Holders as well.

So if you can pass on one thing to the Dev team Camate, let it be this, Please, No "Trade X item to Moogle" Trial .... It promotes nothing but competition and hostility amongst players, Especially when they're all fighting for the same item.

Again, Its never about the Quantity of the items, Its the fact the entire trial as a whole is rather poorly planned. It shows The Devs don't play their own game our understand exactly how out-of-reach this trials is going to be to the average, even above average relic holder, especially if they consider it as such (in reach)

[Muras]

I'm just going to echo a bunch of points people already made for me...

- The anger of the yet-to-be-implemented trials is justified. There is so much resentment of the dev. team's recent actions right now, that we just assume we're going to get screwed over.

- 1500 Heavy Metal plates is pretty harsh, but no one thought it would be this bad when it was implemented. No one complained, and we got stuck with a horrible trial.

- The Alexanderite requirement for mythics has always been insane, and next to nothing has been done to fix this.

- We basically have ZERO faith or reason to believe that once something is implemented like this, it will ever be made easier, ESPECIALLY if some masochist burns through it. Heavy Metal and Alexanderite requirements should both be drastically lowered - but we won't see this happen. Why? It wouldn't be fair to the .01% of players who completed the trials.

What's even more disgusting is the fact that the Alexandrite requirement back when mythics were first added was originally 50,000 instead of 30,000. People wanted to see it reduced to 5,000 or even 10,000 since they were already more time consuming to make and still weren't as good as relics.

I just find it so strange how SE does things, because 10-15 years ago a lot of businesses would've killed to get such readily available feedback on their products like what this forum provides. Back 10-15 years forums just weren't as widely used, and we didn't have stuff like twitter and facebook and advanced search engines like Google. We had search engines, but they were nearly as good (I remember the popular ones back then were Yahoo, InfoSeek, and WebCrawler). It was harder to locate information. But here we are with a forum at SE's fingertips and they generally seem to ignore the most important issues.

[Kitkat]

Please note that "troll" does not mean "someone who's opinion differs from my own"



That's pretty much what it is. They abandoned their big shells when Abyssea came out because they thought they would never need them again and now they are screwed because they tossed away the system of mutual support and personal favors they had built up over several years to dual box everything in godmode land never imagining that SE might make a U turn. Now they are raging because they're going to have to go back to a big shell and work their way up from the bottom again if they want to finish their relics.

No, that isn't what this is about at all. Most anything I still do with my shell and on average we have an alliance worth if not slightly over an alliance worth. The problem is the number of relics/emps within that group, and while it doesn't apply to my LS, mythics also. In the LS alone, as the trials currently stand it is to get them done 1 by 1. First 1 we might be able to squeeze out in a couple days because we have ADL pops already and a few lesser NM pops, but then it is a grind of doing it all over again and treking through the whole zone to recollect the pop items and the ADL items again. For mythic owners it is going through the ZNM tiers to get PW pops that is the issue. For what? One person? I know absolutely no one in my LS needs/wants anything of PW/ZNM let alone of ADL/DL/Lessers meaning you are expecting these people that don't have relics or do, to wait in line without any justifiable reward to offer them in return?

[Atoreis]

The shared concern seems to be that an item trial makes 0 sense. It makes even less sense when you consider that the item comes from content requiring 18+ people and it starts getting really stupid when the same items required for stage 1 are required for stage 2. Most people are aware that the number is temporary but even if lowered to 5 there are still far too many relics in circulation for this trial to be considered something that most PCs will complete and the demand for these items to complete stage 1 means that stage 2 is no longer just a virtual impossibility it is now literally impossible.

Stage 1 needs to be rebuilt and rethought from the ground up. Lowering the number of items required does not fix it.

Ymm no.

Empyrean trial is fine.
Mythic trial is fine (considering 1000+ zeni per photo)
Relic trial is not fine

Best solution is not to change all those trials but add Umbral Marrow to drop pool of Normal Dynamis lord (100% 1 drop) and make ADL drop like 10 of them. That is the simplest solution.

Not to mention that after SE said what items are required to get 99 Empy some ppl like me started to gather them and they will (I will for sure) feel cheated if the trial wont require those items ( dont even joke with stage 2). I have 97 dross which I got for like 40M and I dont want to end up with 97 useless items (and yes I have 95 already opposed to 99% of ppl who whine about 99 trials and doesnt even have 95)

[Insaniac]

Ymm no.

Empyrean trial is fine.
Mythic trial is fine (considering 1000+ zeni per photo)
Relic trial is not fine

Best solution is not to change all those trials but add Umbral Marrow to drop pool of Normal Dynamis lord (100% 1 drop) and make ADL drop like 10 of them. That is the simplest solution.

Not to mention that after SE said what items are required to get 99 Empy some ppl like me started to gather them and they will (I will for sure) feel cheated if the trial wont require those items ( dont even joke with stage 2). I have 97 dross which I got for like 40M and I dont want to end up with 97 useless items (and yes I have 95 already opposed to 99% of ppl who whine about 99 trials and doesnt even have 95)

I may have not been clear but I was only talking about the relic trials. Emp trials are perfectly fine and mythic trials are even kind of ok with the new zeni values. Relic trials need to be scrapped and redone completely since neither of the other trials suffer from a "2 hours once a day" penalty.

[Atoreis]

I may have not been clear but I was only talking about the relic trials. Emp trials are perfectly fine and mythic trials are even kind of ok with the new zeni values. Relic trials need to be scrapped and redone completely since neither of the other trials suffer from a "2 hours once a day" penalty.

The problem is they probably wont change umbral marrow to something else w/o changing mythic and empyrean and that would be rude for ppl whole already started collect those items.
Only solution is to add umbral marrow as drop for DL or for example instead of treasure pool from ADL just put ??? after you kill it from which when you click on it you get Umbral Marrow. That will reward everyone in ally with one Umbral Marrow.

[Kimble]

Why can't you change the relic trial without messing with the other 2? No one is really bitching about the other 2.

[Atoreis]

Why can't you change the relic trial without messing with the other 2? No one is really bitching about the other 2.

Its SE. Balance between all 3 type of weapons etc.

[saevel]

No offense dude, but isn't the ENTIRE point of a test server and a forum, is to comment/complain/express opinion on the CURRENT test data? Yes we get that its temporary, even still, there is a chance this will BE the final content, and if we dont say something NOW that we dont like it, it will be implemented. The "Current" trials on the test server Stink, temporary or not.

Not anymore.

The team that did Abyssea used this forum for feedback on their content and to see what players want to be fixed. Tanaka and the team from failed FFXIV have absolutely zero desire to hear what you want. They only care about the JP players. They were basically ignoring the english forums until someone translated the Ala interview to JP for the JP readers to read and OMFG Holy Jesus explosion took place over there. The JP readers were pissed off with SE and since then SE has done their best to appease the JP crowd.

All these changes are due to the JP crowd's response. Camate and the other CR's just post what the devs tell them to post, but the dev's aren't answering your questions anymore, their now answering the JP's questions / feedback only.

[Atomic_Skull]

The Devs don't play their own game our understand exactly how out-of-reach this trials is going to be to the average, even above average relic holder, especially if they consider it as such (in reach)

Since when is 100-200 million gil out of reach of the average relic holder? If you can't do ADL then buy the items from the many groups that will be farming ADL to sell his drop for 5-10 million gil. At that price ADL is a guaranteed 10-20m gill, more than enough for people to forgo currency farming and farm an ADL pop set instead.

If SE did not intend people do buy the drops then you would not be able to put them in bazaar. Obviously they do or the items would have been Ex.

[Karbuncle]

You have fun with that.

The idea that LS's will actually farm this item to sell it to people is absurd to begin with. Most of them will farm it for their own Relic holders - From that point, a few may sell them sure, But theres not that many good LS's who can take out Arch Dynamis Lord across all servers, Maybe just 1-2 Per Server who could do it.

Even then, They have to rely on the dumb-luck factor of "I split in two, hope you guess right".

The idea that 100-200mil is within the reach of your average Relic holder, Who likely farmed their Relic through Dynamis, Is also laughable, But i won't even get into that, because its based off the completely wrong assumption that there will suddenly be a large enough supply of these in bazaars for people to buy.

To date, even people knowing the trial is going to be this, i have not seen a single one of these items in a Bazaar, and I've looked on more than one occasion.

[Atomic_Skull]

You have fun with that

25% to 50% there already depending on what the selling price is. I was expecting a large outlay of gil for the last upgrade so I've been busy this past year.

[Karbuncle]

I updated my post a bit.

The idea of buying the items isn't insane - the idea that there will be a large enough quantity of these in peoples bazaars to actually buy them is the insanity. They don't exactly drop from the sky like Currency and Forgotten items.

You'll see maybe 1-2 Linkshell Mules per server with 1 in their bazaar at any given time, If even that. Again, on Asura, I haven't seen a single one, Anyone farming them are keeping them for their own relic.

You can be sitting on 500mil gil, and it won't matter if theres no supply.

[Vold]

Since when is 100-200 million gil out of reach of the average relic holder?
Ignorance is truly bliss, I bet. But you keep on with that gil drive. Let us know how it feels down the road to repurchase your relic weapon(possibly as much as three times over) at 99 because your 150 million previously was not enough for SE. Then you can look at yourself and love yourself.

[Siiri]

I don't have a relic, just emp weapon, so I don't have a dog in the relic trial fight. That being said, I help run a linkshell that often takes member requests and will farm items for people. I will not help farm ADL items the way it is currently set up. Mainly, any fight that requires 18 people to be there solely for 1 person numerous times is going to fail for most these days. Most of just don't have the desire and/or energy to return to an old school dyna event where we all work for 1 person.

If it was a reasonable amount of kills that several relic holders could group together to do, that would at least be somewhat plausible. I could see myself helping with that once a week or once a month for x amount of times. Hopefully all the feedback will result in something more realistic for the relic holders.

[Tamoa]

Not to mention that after SE said what items are required to get 99 Empy some ppl like me started to gather them and they will (I will for sure) feel cheated if the trial wont require those items ( dont even joke with stage 2). I have 97 dross which I got for like 40M and I dont want to end up with 97 useless items (and yes I have 95 already opposed to 99% of ppl who whine about 99 trials and doesnt even have 95)

I'm sorry, but I just have to point out that if SE decides to change the requirement for stage 1 level 99 empyrean weapon, it'll be your own fault for buying these items before the trial is actually implemented, just going by some numbers and stuff on the test server.

On the other hand, personally I don't believe SE will change it. I do wish they'd lower the number some, though.

[Mahoro]

I don't have a relic, just emp weapon, so I don't have a dog in the relic trial fight. That being said, I help run a linkshell that often takes member requests and will farm items for people. I will not help farm ADL items the way it is currently set up. Mainly, any fight that requires 18 people to be there solely for 1 person numerous times is going to fail for most these days. Most of just don't have the desire and/or energy to return to an old school dyna event where we all work for 1 person.

If it was a reasonable amount of kills that several relic holders could group together to do, that would at least be somewhat plausible. I could see myself helping with that once a week or once a month for x amount of times. Hopefully all the feedback will result in something more realistic for the relic holders.

Nobody wants Shadow Gear/Archon Gear/Sagasinger? You will probably get some people in your shell who would lot them although they are considered niche pieces. I know a few people who play PLD who would love to get Sagasinger. Not that it justifies a LS doing 20 * x ADL fights (where "x" is the number of relics in shell). I'm not a fan of the trial's requirements, but there is certainly more interest in ADL than in PW, whose drops are completely outdated now.

[Crysten]

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee196/DocMudkip/0234a2ea-554f-4d39-a1e0-b0297bdb9d2f.png

This is the situation I'm ultimately reminded of every time I come back to this discussion.

Looking at Camate's reply though, the dev team clearly aren't listening to the points we're making, either way.

[Taint2]

Umbra won't be merced.

ADL is an annoying bastard, requires tome farming and then can screw you when he multiplies.

The only reason to Merc is to afford items like Relics, all Merc groups have Relics of their own to worry about.

SEs best bet is to make it drop off Multiple Dynamis bosses.

[Raksha]

Umbra won't be merced.


Everything is/can be merced.

Except maybe things which can only be done solo.

Maybe.

[Tamoa]

I honestly don't see Umbra being merced. For the amount of effort/people involved, plus the chance of picking the wrong clone and everything going straight to hell from there on, the price tag is going to be huge if so.

[wish12oz]

Please note that "troll" does not mean "someone who's opinion differs from my own"


I wasn't aware the math surrounding why mandau is better then twash was an opinion....

Please note your thoughts on what an opinion is, are incorrect.

[Nynja]

Since when is 100-200 million gil out of reach of the average relic holder? If you can't do ADL then buy the items from the many groups that will be farming ADL to sell his drop for 5-10 million gil. At that price ADL is a guaranteed 10-20m gill, more than enough for people to forgo currency farming and farm an ADL pop set instead.

If SE did not intend people do buy the drops then you would not be able to put them in bazaar. Obviously they do or the items would have been Ex.

1-price of 1 Umbral Marrow will have to be atleast 20 mil to justify its selling price, I've already explained it, go find the post if you want to read the math behind it.
2-ADL is never a guaranteed kill cause of the luck factor (50% chance of kill between fake/real)
3-you're a troll

[Taint2]

1-price of 1 Umbral Marrow will have to be atleast 20 mil to justify its selling price, I've already explained it, go find the post if you want to read the math behind it.
2-ADL is never a guaranteed kill cause of the luck factor (50% chance of kill between fake/real)
3-you're a troll


Last time I did ADL he has 3 clones out, so thats 25% chance of guessing correctly.

[Khajit]

The number picked for mythic alexandrites is unrealistic because people were cheating like hell and tripling drops in salvage. It should be 1/3 of what it is at least before we even get into the lv 99 stuff.

[BorkBorkBork]

What do they expect when SE lowers its staff to have to employ players to do their testing for them?

[Nynja]

Last time I did ADL he has 3 clones out, so thats 25% chance of guessing correctly.

Are you serious? lol
I heard its "kill one ADL and two pop, one real one fake. If you kill real one, fight ends, if you kill fake, another 2 pop", and thats pretty disgusting as is. If multiple clones can pop, that's ridiculous.

[Kieron]

Wow the devs are pretty damn clueless. FFXI in its current state should not have long, strenuous, time sink trials that benefit one person. They really just don't get it.

Also, an update is supposed to be an update. Gimping the hell out of everything and upgrading (very minuscule upgrades) stupid abilities that go unused is not an update. Players should be saying "Oh cool something new!" instead of "Oh god please don't gimp anything...".

Anyways, I hear SWTOR is great btw.

[Atoreis]

I'm sorry, but I just have to point out that if SE decides to change the requirement for stage 1 level 99 empyrean weapon, it'll be your own fault for buying these items before the trial is actually implemented, just going by some numbers and stuff on the test server.

On the other hand, personally I don't believe SE will change it. I do wish they'd lower the number some, though.

Nope that would be true if http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18132-December-14-2011-Version-Update wouldnt been posted


*New Magian trials for Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons have been delayed to allow time for proper balancing.
They are scheduled to be introduced to the test server in the near future and implemented in the release version in an additional version update.
The items required for the trials, however, have been introduced in advance in this version update.

They said the trial is delayed but those items WILL be used to upgreade those weapons. That goes to real server not test server.

Ofc you can say that they still will be used for upg... to stage 2 but thats obviously trolling.
If no those update notes or those items just introduced in test server you would be right but its not the case.

[Tamoa]

I still say you're buying those items at your own risk when the trial hasn't been implemented in the game, and it's still uncertain what the amount will be - for each or just one stage, who knows.

[Prothscar]

Wow the devs are pretty damn clueless. FFXI in its current state should not have long, strenuous, time sink trials that benefit one person. They really just don't get it.

Also, an update is supposed to be an update. Gimping the hell out of everything and upgrading (very minuscule upgrades) stupid abilities that go unused is not an update. Players should be saying "Oh cool something new!" instead of "Oh god please don't gimp anything...".

Anyways, I hear SWTOR is great btw.

SWTOR is pretty bad, play RIFT

[Nynja]

Nope that would be true if http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18132-December-14-2011-Version-Update wouldnt been posted

They also initially posted 1k items, and then 20...both times have since been met with "this is temporary, it'll change"

[Nala]

Last time I did ADL he has 3 clones out, so thats 25% chance of guessing correctly.

actually you have a 33.3% chance of picking right the first time and a 50% if your first guess was incorrect, now i might be doing this wrong but pretty sure this is a compounding probability. so .33 * .5 = 16.5% or i'm just tired and need to eat some food.

Also peeps should just add attomic_troll to thier ignore lists, its clear he is either retarded or likes instigating people.

[Nynja]

actually you have a 33.3% chance of picking right the first time and a 50% if your first guess was incorrect, now i might be doing this wrong but pretty sure this is a compounding probability. so .33 * .5 = 16.5% or i'm just tired and need to eat some food.

Thats if the clones pop and you fight till you kill the real one. To my understanding, when one ADL dies, it respawns with new clones. Of course, to my understanding as well, it was always 1 real 1 fake...so it very well could be when the real ADL is the last one standing, it spawns new clones.

[Nala]

yeah just looked it up due to some one saying that, i didnt realize he could keep spawning clones... thats total crap also thats not correct math its more like .5^x where is x the amount of times you get a clone...

[Atoreis]

They also initially posted 1k items, and then 20...both times have since been met with "this is temporary, it'll change"

What part you dont understand?

Trial WILL use those items so go collect them at REAL SERVER.
Trial is not finished yet so NUMBER of those items required might change so we only put it at TEST SERVER for now.

Still dont understand?

[Nynja]

You've been buying marrows knowing they only come from ADL and honestly expected the trial to require 1k / 20? lol... baaaaa (http://images.wikia.com/finalfantasy/images/7/7d/Antlion_1_%28FFXI%29.png)

The only items I can see justified buying in advance were emp ones, because item generation was ok, and price shouldnt really change much with demand.

[Helel]

Nope that would be true if http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18132-December-14-2011-Version-Update wouldnt been posted



They said the trial is delayed but those items WILL be used to upgreade those weapons. That goes to real server not test server.

Ofc you can say that they still will be used for upg... to stage 2 but thats obviously trolling.
If no those update notes or those items just introduced in test server you would be right but its not the case.

You said it yourself. The items that they introduced in advance are used for the stage 2 upgrade, so they're not lying (if they don't implement them for stage 1), nor are they trolling anyone who isn't stupid enough to start buying/farming them in advance.

[Nynja]

*New Magian trials for Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons have been delayed to allow time for proper balancing.
They are scheduled to be introduced to the test server in the near future and implemented in the release version in an additional version update.
The items required for the trials, however, have been introduced in advance in this version update.


He's right, nothing in there specifies the items being specifically for stage 1 or 2. Sorry bro, u lose, good day sir.

[Kimble]

Atoreis is just being Atoreis as always and refusing to admit he could be wrong.

[Atoreis]

Atoreis is just being Atoreis as always and refusing to admit he could be wrong.

Nope I said that they could obviously troll me with saying items will be for upg empy then change it to stage 2.
That would be very wrong and rude tho (cant use harder words here) but I know its possible but highly unlikely.

[Kimble]

No, it wouldnt be wrong or rude at all. They didn't make you start collecting those items. You choose to do so. ANYTHING that is on the test server can be changed before it goes live.

I don't really agree with SE that often, but in this case, thats on you, not them.

[Nynja]

First Post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18132-December-14-2011-Version-Update)


*New Magian trials for Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons have been delayed to allow time for proper balancing.
They are scheduled to be introduced to the test server in the near future and implemented in the release version in an additional version update.
The items required for the trials, however, have been introduced in advance in this version update.

Second post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19740-Ok...let-me-level-with-you-here-SE...?p=268004#post268004)


* Stage 1　※The number of items required for upgrade is temporary.
Weapon Classification Trial Information
Relic Weapons Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.
Objective: 20 Umbral Marrow
Mythic Weapons Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.
Objective: 10 Mulcibar’s Scoria
Verethragna/Almace/Farsha/Redemption/Rhongomiant/Masamune/Gandiva/Daurdabla Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.
Objective: 60 Riftcinder
Twashtar/Caladbolg/Ukonvasara/Kannagi/Gambanteinn/Hvergelmir/Armageddon/Ochain Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.
Objective: 60 Riftdross

* Stage 2　※The number of items required for upgrade is temporary.
Weapon Classification Trial Information
Relic Weapons Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.
Objective: 1,000 Umbral Marrow
Mythic Weapons Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.
Objective: 500 Mulcibar’s Scoria
Verethragna/Almace/Farsha/Redemption/Rhongomiant/Masamune/Gandiva/Daurdabla Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.
Objective: 3,000 Riftcinder
Twashtar/Caladbolg/Ukonvasara/Kannagi/Gambanteinn/Hvergelmir/Armageddon/Ochain Trial: Retrieve a set quantity of the assigned item.
Objective: 3,000 Riftdross

Tables broke, too lazy to fix it. The word "temporary" means "not final"...meaning it can change to something significantly lower, they can remove the item(s) for stage 1 upgrades. They could make it not based on Marrows, or they could adjust the drops, both drop count and drop places, so the rough value per Marrow isnt 20+ million gil, meaning if you've been farming them / buying them (LOL), you've done bad move.


The problem here now, is relics. Something majority seems to agree on at this point. I have no problem with Riftcinder/dross, and with the 10x zeni turnin, I have no problem with mythics...so once again, the problem is relics. The only people seemingly upset with mythics or emps are either ignorant, or expect their upgrade to be in their deliverybox after trading it to a moogle.

The problem with emps I find is the HMP's, 1500 is dumdum, but its too late to go back now cause those who have upgraded are gonna flip. I dont get how SE doesnt realize why we're raging at these numbers now. The last time a fkn absurd trial was put out on the test server (the 1500 HMP's), we didnt bitch about it cause we figured "lol thats a sick joke, theyre going to adjust that..."...and we waited...and we waited.....and....we......waited, and then it was never adjusted. So we bitch and raise our voices when something absurd is put out because we have to.

[SpankWustler]

Nope I said that they could obviously troll me with saying items will be for upg empy then change it to stage 2.
That would be very wrong and rude tho (cant use harder words here) but I know its possible but highly unlikely.

I open a new restaurant and, being mentally unwell, I experiment with charging people in severed heads rather than money. The food is really good, though, so I have a few customers.

A week later, I'm back on my medication and it occurs to me that rotting severed heads smell really bad. Also, business is pretty bad. I begin accepting money instead of severed heads.

This sucks for the guy who has been keeping his chainsaw well-oiled, his freezer full of severed heads, and a run-down state park full of headless corpses; but it's a good decision overall.

This analogy doesn't fit the Empyrean 99 so much as it fits the Relic 99 upgrade, but the general idea is the same. I don't think replacing a bad idea with a better idea is ever wrong, and making changes is the whole reason the test server exists.

I personally think it would be pretty dumb if the Development Bros totally changed the Empyrean trials just because they were totally changing trials for Mythics and Relics, but I still wouldn't consider that change wrong.

If you do anything based on the test server, it's best to see it as an educated gamble with the odds in your favor.

[Catsby]

The problem with emps I find is the HMP's, 1500 is dumdum, but its too late to go back now cause those who have upgraded are gonna flip.

They probably should have waited then. Shit like that is why I don't even log in anymore.

[Sparthos]

The problem with emps I find is the HMP's, 1500 is dumdum, but its too late to go back now cause those who have upgraded are gonna flip.

Who cares? SE has made shit easier that cost many people millions in gil before, whats stopping them with HMPs?

If someones gonna bitch about 1500 plates to get a 95 then should others complain for doing CoP pre-nerf? For doing relic killshot trials before the reduction? For Nyzul before the fix? Salvage? Cmon, we all know when you do things ahead of the wave you might get burned.

SE needs to get real and adjust the trial down to reasonable numbers. It doesn't need to be Carabosse tier easy but something reasonable and not requiring 150M for a marginal gain would be a start.

[Prothscar]

500-750 plates would be reasonable.

[Alerith]

If someones gonna bitch about 1500 plates to get a 95 then should others complain for doing CoP pre-nerf? For doing relic killshot trials before the reduction? For Nyzul before the fix? Salvage? Cmon, we all know when you do things ahead of the wave you might get burned.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. But in each of those examples, people did complain.

[Geabrielle]

Natural progression would have been 150 plates honestly, but at this point I'd agree on 500-750 as well.

As for the theoretical numbers on the final trials themselves .... no need to stir the hornet nest. The dev's already have said the items are a pretty much an assured deal so it's a good time to start bartering for reasonable numbers. I will finally agree that perhaps kills on ADL would be a better stage 1 alternative but only if they create multiple spawn points ... or the entire rant-fest will still be a crap-end stick. Yet it would also be reasonable to say if they change the relic to kills they should change the mythic to kills as well. I say this quite frankly as it's the same progression as gaining pop trophy-items with the ADDED burden of playing FF safari hunter. Increased zeni or no, it's still a utilization of hours of time and organization .. after the crap sandwich that is the mythic quest itself.

Empyrean is fine as long as further monsters to drop the dross/cinder are added as well as bag/pouch for them because frankly the tiny handful of mobs on plates and plate pouches is seriously a bummer.

[Nynja]

Killshots dont really work because you'll wind up with the same problem once you eventually finish everyones relic: whos gonna come for 20 ADL's for no reward?

[Arcon]

Killshots dont really work because you'll wind up with the same problem once you eventually finish everyones relic: whos gonna come for 20 ADL's for no reward?

Your LS mates. Or, even if they're selfish dicks and wouldn't want to, it would still be easier to find other people to team up with, considering relics are easier to make and they keep popping up left and right. Deals could be brokered, statics could be formed, compromises could be made, it would by no means be perfect, but it would be doable. Especially if they lower the required amount. Unlike 20 items to obtain, which is realistically speaking impossible.

Anyway you look at it, killshots will always be better than collecting items, even in its worst case (doing it for just one person, a situation which is unlikely to arise).

[Atoreis]

I think you still cant understand that WHAT items are needed for trial went to LIVE server and only thing that was not ready and temporary at test server was Amount of those items require to upg. In which case only thing that I should risk is amount of those items I decide to gather before this temporary number will finally go live.
I also gathered Riftdross not marrows lol.

You all disagree because you are in those 99% that obviously want trial to be easier.
All I want to tell you is stop whining and start farming. I have items for 99 ready for a month now and I share all gils with my friend and we both have work (normal 5 days a week 8h). I farmed/got those dross between gathering coins for his 3rd relic so I have no idea how ppl can say its hard to gather 1500 HMP and 60 dross.
Relic trial is stupid but to fix it they should add more drops to ADL and maybe add one 100% drop from normal DL not change whole trial to something else.

[Babekeke]

Add a pouch to ADL is the obvious way to go with this. Chance for up to 10 people to get an item from 1 kill. Add a chance for singles to drop from some other NMs throughout the zone too and you're golden.

In theory, all 18 members of the alliance can get a Riftdross per run (highly unlikely, but possible). And you could farm them until the cows come home, and get the whole trial done in a day.

[Runespider]

The responses we are getting are simply translations of posts made to the JP players on this subject, they aren't really aimed at anyone here.

I think they have some plans for relic upgrades to make this trial less retarded, they are just enjoying seeing us rage (or want to give a false sense of communication when they do add them), they are just keeping them secret for now.

[Scribble]

You all disagree because you are in those 99% that obviously want trial to be easier.
All I want to tell you is stop whining and start farming.

I disagree, but not for the reason you posted. I made a post in the forum for testing, but I feel that it would be better to change the trial to kills and not items; at least for the relics. I DO NOT want the trials to be made easier because I like the idea of working toward a worthy goal, but I would like to see the trial made to reward all those who participate and not just one person.

My proposal is to remove the item requirement and increase the number of kills required. In this way, you reward everyone who participates and it even encourages smaller groups to come together to complete goals. Bring back a little bit of the sense of community that people had when larger groups and cooperation were required to complete certain tasks.

[Atoreis]

I disagree, but not for the reason you posted. I made a post in the forum for testing, but I feel that it would be better to change the trial to kills and not items; at least for the relics. I DO NOT want the trials to be made easier because I like the idea of working toward a worthy goal, but I would like to see the trial made to reward all those who participate and not just one person.

My proposal is to remove the item requirement and increase the number of kills required. In this way, you reward everyone who participates and it even encourages smaller groups to come together to complete goals. Bring back a little bit of the sense of community that people had when larger groups and cooperation were required to complete certain tasks.

How about ppl that dont want to upg relic and are needed for kill? they wont be rewarded at all.
Far better suggestion is the one made by bebekeke. Add pouch and more drop sources and split items so the ones who need can get for themself and the ones who dont can have gils from selling.

[Tamoa]

I think you still cant understand that WHAT items are needed for trial went to LIVE server and only thing that was not ready and temporary at test server was Amount of those items require to upg. In which case only thing that I should risk is amount of those items I decide to gather before this temporary number will finally go live.
I also gathered Riftdross not marrows lol.

You all disagree because you are in those 99% that obviously want trial to be easier.
All I want to tell you is stop whining and start farming. I have items for 99 ready for a month now and I share all gils with my friend and we both have work (normal 5 days a week 8h). I farmed/got those dross between gathering coins for his 3rd relic so I have no idea how ppl can say its hard to gather 1500 HMP and 60 dross.
Relic trial is stupid but to fix it they should add more drops to ADL and maybe add one 100% drop from normal DL not change whole trial to something else.

Bulls**t.

All I said was that if SE changes the requirement for stage 1 lvl 99 empyrean weapon, it's all on you, you took a gamble and you lost.

As for the lvl 95 and 99 empyrean trials, I think they are harsh due to the low drop rates on both plates and riftcinder/riftdross. I'm currently working on 95 Ukon, buying plates here and there as well as joining shout groups, but I refuse to dedicate 100% of my online time to this trial. That'll burn me out faster than anything else, and I don't want that to happen, this is a game and not a job. So it'll take a while for me to finish, and I can live with that.

[Nynja]

Your LS mates. Or, even if they're selfish dicks and wouldn't want to, it would still be easier to find other people to team up with, considering relics are easier to make and they keep popping up left and right. Deals could be brokered, statics could be formed, compromises could be made, it would by no means be perfect, but it would be doable. Especially if they lower the required amount. Unlike 20 items to obtain, which is realistically speaking impossible.

Anyway you look at it, killshots will always be better than collecting items, even in its worst case (doing it for just one person, a situation which is unlikely to arise).

/sh Looking for people to kill ADL for relic 99 upgrade
BST>> I'm in
BST>> invite to join party
BST>> I'm in
BST>> invite to join party
PLD>> I'll come
THF>> I'm in
BST>> I'm in
BST>> invite to join party

Thats gonna get you really far...cause your support team wont want to waste another 4 weeks dynamis time then they've already lost. Remember each person is accountable for roughly 100 currency in dynamis (its a rough estimate, I'm aware bst can do ~170 solo, but I'm also aware bst can do 50 when most of their yellow mobs get jacked), and at 8k/currency, thats 800k lost not including forgottens, over 30 days, thats 24 million gil you're essentially taking from someone.


You all disagree because you are in those 99% that obviously want trial to be easier.
All I want to tell you is stop whining and start farming. I have items for 99 ready for a month now and I share all gils with my friend and we both have work (normal 5 days a week 8h). I farmed/got those dross between gathering coins for his 3rd relic so I have no idea how ppl can say its hard to gather 1500 HMP and 60 dross.
Relic trial is stupid but to fix it they should add more drops to ADL and maybe add one 100% drop from normal DL not change whole trial to something else.

You have 99 items for emp weapons, we get it. No ones saying the Emp trial at 99 is ridiculous, the ridiculous portion is the HMP, because theres MAYBE 30 emps (I'm guessing, we can all agree its NOT a lot) at lv95 across all the servers since the induction of HMP's, which was introduced over 4 months ago. We get it, you bought up riftdross/cinder in advance, congrats.

None of ANYTHING in this thread has ANYTHING to do with Empyrean weapon upgrades. It has everything to do with Mythics and Relics...the mythics was mostly resolved with the change to zeni, and anyone complaining is just buthurt they cant finish in 2 days. I get it, you had to farm 30k alex and kill the beastmen kings and BLAH BLAH BLAH then kill a t4 ZNM 3 times then kill a salvage boss 3 times (the only real tedious trial is the alex btw, the rest is negligible, or should have previously been done doing older content). So were left with relics, a currently proposed trial that forces 17 people to piss away a month of their own dynamis time, their own currency and/or missing AF2 and/or missing AF2-1 and/or forgotten item farming time, so someone can upgrade a relic to 99...in a fight that is ENTIRELY luck based, for ONE relic.

So please, drop the BS "stop whining and start farming", you cant just get up and go "hey im gonna go join an ADL shout group" like you can for your riftdross, cause guess what: ADL doesnt get killed.



I disagree, but not for the reason you posted. I made a post in the forum for testing, but I feel that it would be better to change the trial to kills and not items; at least for the relics. I DO NOT want the trials to be made easier because I like the idea of working toward a worthy goal, but I would like to see the trial made to reward all those who participate and not just one person.

My proposal is to remove the item requirement and increase the number of kills required. In this way, you reward everyone who participates and it even encourages smaller groups to come together to complete goals. Bring back a little bit of the sense of community that people had when larger groups and cooperation were required to complete certain tasks.

Please people stop suggesting killshots. You're going to run into the same problem down the line when there are a handful of 95 relics.
Look at the 95 cap fight, anyone who missed the initial wave is still at 95, or quit because they cant find anyone to do the fight.

[wish12oz]

I started buying riftdross too =| But there's also a bunch of JPs doing it, so I don't feel bad.

I bumped the price on my server to 1mil each too~
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[Crysten]

I think you still cant understand that WHAT items are needed for trial went to LIVE server and only thing that was not ready and temporary at test server was Amount of those items require to upg. In which case only thing that I should risk is amount of those items I decide to gather before this temporary number will finally go live.
I also gathered Riftdross not marrows lol.

You all disagree because you are in those 99% that obviously want trial to be easier.
All I want to tell you is stop whining and start farming. I have items for 99 ready for a month now and I share all gils with my friend and we both have work (normal 5 days a week 8h). I farmed/got those dross between gathering coins for his 3rd relic so I have no idea how ppl can say its hard to gather 1500 HMP and 60 dross.
Relic trial is stupid but to fix it they should add more drops to ADL and maybe add one 100% drop from normal DL not change whole trial to something else.

Quit stroking your e-peen for a second and realize most people are complaining about the relic trials.

You got 1,500 HMPs and 60 Riftdross, well done; you've proven you're willing to put up with the crap the devs keep feeding us. Let us know when you finish afterglow so we can slap you for being as retarded as they are for actually supporting this content.

[Atoreis]

Quit stroking your e-peen for a second and realize most people are complaining about the relic trials.

You got 1,500 HMPs and 60 Riftdross, well done; you've proven you're willing to put up with the crap the devs keep feeding us. Let us know when you finish afterglow so we can slap you for being as retarded as they are for actually supporting this content.

Learn to read first or stop posting.

Whole part of my posts about Empyrean trial was an answer to other posts about Empyrean trial.
Whole part about relic trial was an answer to other posts about relic trial.

Idk how I should edit my posts so you and Nynja could see that I'm writing TWO different opinion about TWO different trials. Maybe I should write one part with Capslock and n other color? Lets try:

Items needed to upgrade Relic/Mythic/Empyreans went on live server and changing them will be a very bad move by SE which probably wont be done. Only thing that can be done is to make those items easier to get which SE is doing atm by adjusting zeni per photo. <- that was the part about Empyrean and Mythics

RELIC TRIAL WHICH IS VERY BAD ATM SHOULD BE FIXED BY ADJUSTING AMOUNT OF ITEMS THAT ADL CAN DROP (POUCHES FOR EXAMPLE LIKE SOMEONE SUGGESTED) OR ADD THOSE ITEMS TO OTHER MOBS LIKE ARCH BOSSES FROM OTHER DYNAMIS ZONES. STOP SUGGEST TO CHANGE WHOLE TRIAL BECAUSE SE WONT DO IT BECAUSE ITEMS ALREADY WENT TO LIVE SERVER AND THEY WONT BE CHANGED. INSTEAD SUGGEST A WAY TO MAKE THOSE ITEMS EASIER TO GET (OR WAYS TO REWARD PPL THAT NEED TO HELP YOU). <- That was a part about relic trial

I was writing the same thing now in several posts and I hope this time you can actually stop taking the lines that fill to your awesome answers and try to read and understand 100% of the post.

[Sparthos]

I think you still cant understand that WHAT items are needed for trial went to LIVE server and only thing that was not ready and temporary at test server was Amount of those items require to upg. In which case only thing that I should risk is amount of those items I decide to gather before this temporary number will finally go live.
I also gathered Riftdross not marrows lol.

You all disagree because you are in those 99% that obviously want trial to be easier.
All I want to tell you is stop whining and start farming. I have items for 99 ready for a month now and I share all gils with my friend and we both have work (normal 5 days a week 8h). I farmed/got those dross between gathering coins for his 3rd relic so I have no idea how ppl can say its hard to gather 1500 HMP and 60 dross.
Relic trial is stupid but to fix it they should add more drops to ADL and maybe add one 100% drop from normal DL not change whole trial to something else.

150M + 120M to finish an Emp isn't reasonable to most regardless of your ability to finish the trial beforehand. Now we know the exact number of cinder/dross to finish, the prices have skyrocketed to 1-3M/pc with cinder being rare because well.. Botulus Rex isn't exactly a walk in the park.

I can only imagine how much cinder will cost once desperate people start throwing money at it.

You also fail to realize you've got good resources in your friends that other people simply cannot match. Perhaps others friends quit, perhaps work schedule makes FFXI a 3-4hr/day experience, perhaps farming Dynamis daily to grind out coin doesn't sound ideal, perhaps some people have no friends or perhaps people don't care to buy a dualbox to play the game. Toss in the fact that soon new events will divert attention away from Voidwatch and you have a scenario where supply could plummet and prices skyrocket a la Alexandrite.

Maybe cinder/dross/plates will be Legion buyable. I wouldn't hold my breath though.

Bottom line is an emp shouldn't cost more than a relic when it was sold to the public as a casual weapon for people who don't care to make FFXI a fulltime grinding operation yet with the current prices it will outpace a relic just to get two trials done. Ridiculous.

SE being SE can't even be arsed to make HMPs 100%/kill which would still require 1500 kills in Voidwatch to complete a trial or drive the prices out of the stratosphere.

[Nynja]

Idk how I should edit my posts so you and Nynja could see that I'm writing TWO different opinion about TWO different trials. Maybe I should write one part with Capslock and n other color? Lets try:

So you're saying this is just about relics...


You all disagree because you are in those 99% that obviously want trial to be easier.
All I want to tell you is stop whining and start farming. I have items for 99 ready for a month now and I share all gils with my friend and we both have work (normal 5 days a week 8h).

you have 40 Umbral Marrows allready?!? Wait...you dont, you're talking about emps?
Then why are you telling everyone to "stop whining and start farming"? Oh, cause you're dumdum.



Items needed to upgrade Relic/Mythic/Empyreans went on live server and changing them will be a very bad move by SE which probably wont be done.

Are the trials on the live server? Oh...no they're not. Once again, all SE has confirmed so far is that those 4 items will be required for the final stage, not specifying if its for stage 1 or 2, because at the time of confirmation, there was no stage 1 and 2. SE has then made a secondary post, with temporary preliminary numbers, maybe to see how the players would react...and they've reacted REALLY bad. Not one person has said the emp trial of 60 rift's is bad, so why have you brought up the fact you have the items for the 99 emp upgrade 4 times in 3 posts?



Learn to read first or stop posting.
...
RELIC TRIAL WHICH IS VERY BAD ATM SHOULD BE FIXED BY ADJUSTING AMOUNT OF ITEMS THAT ADL CAN DROP (POUCHES FOR EXAMPLE LIKE SOMEONE SUGGESTED) OR ADD THOSE ITEMS TO OTHER MOBS LIKE ARCH BOSSES FROM OTHER DYNAMIS ZONES. STOP SUGGEST TO CHANGE WHOLE TRIAL BECAUSE SE WONT DO IT BECAUSE ITEMS ALREADY WENT TO LIVE SERVER AND THEY WONT BE CHANGED. INSTEAD SUGGEST A WAY TO MAKE THOSE ITEMS EASIER TO GET (OR WAYS TO REWARD PPL THAT NEED TO HELP YOU). <- That was a part about relic trial

Perhaps you should take your own advice and "learn to read or stop posting". I've suggested this multiple times already, in this thread, and I'm going to quote it again, because it was back on page 4:


To quell the rage, they're going to have to either:
a-Make it kills, not item turn-in This is no longer a good idea, refer to 95 cap fight
b-make Umbral Marrow / Mulcibar's Scoria drop from additional sources based on difficulty:
Arch Dynamis City boss: 1 Marrow
Arch Mainyu / Arch CC/Antaeus/AB: 3 marrow
Arch Diabolos: 5 marrow
Arch DL: 8 marrow

Tinnin/Sarameya/Khimaira(I forget the name haha): 1 Mulcibar
PW: 5 Mulcibar

the numbers of arch NM's should probably be higher to scale with difficulty/legwork involved, and some NM's could be added: Dynamis Lord for one.

[Mahoro]

So were left with relics, a currently proposed trial that forces 17 people to piss away a month of their own dynamis time, their own currency and/or missing AF2 and/or missing AF2-1 and/or forgotten item farming time, so someone can upgrade a relic to 99...in a fight that is ENTIRELY luck based, for ONE relic.



Many of the arguments I see regarding "forcing 17 people" to come to ADL assume that all of them enter Dyna everyday to do their own stuff, and thus they are "giving up 1-3 mill" in opportunity cost. While this may be true in many instances, I would submit that the people who are trying to farm 1-3 mill each day in Dynamis are by and large the people who are trying to obtain Relic/Mythic of their own. But there are plenty of people who aren't working on Relic/Mythic. And Forgotten can be purchased for pretty cheap nowadays. I personally have no need to step into Dyna except for Arch Boss fights and drops.

[Camiie]

Bottom line is an emp shouldn't cost more than a relic when it was sold to the public as a casual weapon for people who don't care to make FFXI a fulltime grinding operation yet with the current prices it will outpace a relic just to get two trials done. Ridiculous.

SE being SE can't even be arsed to make HMPs 100%/kill which would still require 1500 kills in Voidwatch to complete a trial or drive the prices out of the stratosphere.


So much this for me. SE isn't just now going off the deep end, they already did that with the preposterous 1500 HMP trial for Empyreans. Now they're going from real life mental instability to full on comic book super villain insanity.

As you say, Empyreans were supposed to be for the rest of us. I'm working on my first and probably only one now. I hoped it would be something I'd be able to complete, but I know that as things stand, that can never happen. It will never go past the level 90 stage. It could have if SE hadn't completely jumped the shark on trial difficulty for the 95 stage, but they did and right now it looks like there's no turning back.

Once I get to level 90 with my Empyrean what's left for me and those like me? I thought I would have a realistic means of advancement, but it seems I won't. They've put furthering our Empyreans out of reach, and Mythics were always that way. Level 75 relics are more obtainable than they used to be, but then many of us will run into a wall just as with our Empyreans.

Is SE cool with someone like me feeling stuck? Would they like us to see nothing but unreachable goals and decide to leave the game? Would they like us to resort to RMT? Digging 1500 plates and 60 rift whatevers out of the trash dumpster known as Voidwatch is about as realistic a goal as winning rank 1 in the Mog Bonanza. Buying them would require many of us to win said rank 1 Mog Bonanza more than once.

I'm just trying to warn you SE, that the direction you're going in will backfire. Your goal is to keep people around, but you're doing anything but.

[Ravenmore]

Many of the arguments I see regarding "forcing 17 people" to come to ADL assume that all of them enter Dyna everyday to do their own stuff, and thus they are "giving up 1-3 mill" in opportunity cost. While this may be true in many instances, I would submit that the people who are trying to farm 1-3 mill each day in Dynamis are by and large the people who are trying to obtain Relic/Mythic of their own. But there are plenty of people who aren't working on Relic/Mythic. And Forgotten can be purchased for pretty cheap nowadays. I personally have no need to step into Dyna except for Arch Boss fights and drops.

Again thats still you. How many people refuse to go back into dyna at all after grinding it for years for their northlands (hi rdms/thfs) AF2. All things come into play when trying to talk 17 other people into doing something as been pointed out with just trying to get 3 to 5 people to do the limit break. Wonder why its hard to do that people get tired of doing it over and over for no reward. The shadow items are not enough to get people to waste their time for a spot in waiting in line/lotting for them for a high chance of coming out the other side with nothing.

[Kimble]

Atoreis pretty much said in his first post he doesnt want us to whine about the relic trial stage 1 because hes scared that SE will also change the empy stage 1 trial due to "balance". We told him thats the risk he took for buying those items early.

Now hes just trying to backpeddle and save face.

[Prothscar]

Empyreans would cost, with 60 dross/cinder for basic and 3,000 for afterglow, assuming 1.5m dross/cinder which is in the middle of the high/low, and 100k per plate:

240,000,000 for the basic 99 trial (+5 stat and +10~25 base damage depending on the weapon)

4,650,000,000 for the afterglow


How is that reasonable Atoreis.

Hint: it isn't.

Btw, if curious, if each cinder/dross cost 3m, it'd cost 9,150,000,000. Nine billion gil. The difference between, using Ukonvasara as an example, a lv90 weapon and 99 weapon is 7% DoT.

[Nynja]

you cant really guage a value for dross/cinder now because the trial isnt even out, and come next patch the next chapter of VW will be out...those items may drop in greater quantity.

all u have now is dumdums rushing to get their 5 minutes of fame for being ZOMGFIRST

[Mahoro]

Again thats still you. How many people refuse to go back into dyna at all after grinding it for years for their northlands (hi rdms/thfs) AF2. All things come into play when trying to talk 17 other people into doing something as been pointed out with just trying to get 3 to 5 people to do the limit break. Wonder why its hard to do that people get tired of doing it over and over for no reward. The shadow items are not enough to get people to waste their time for a spot in waiting in line/lotting for them for a high chance of coming out the other side with nothing.

Yeah, didn't really count on the people who have Dyna PTSD. I was busy counting the people who want Arch Boss drops in Xarca and other zones. I might be the only one though! :cool:

[Catsby]

you cant really guage a value for dross/cinder now because the trial isnt even out, and come next patch the next chapter of VW will be out...those items may drop in greater quantity.

all u have now is dumdums rushing to get their 5 minutes of fame for being ZOMGFIRST

And it ruins the game for the rest of us with other shit we want to do (in AND out of game)

[Greatguardian]

you cant really guage a value for dross/cinder now because the trial isnt even out, and come next patch the next chapter of VW will be out...those items may drop in greater quantity.

all u have now is dumdums rushing to get their 5 minutes of fame for being ZOMGFIRST

Except that Jeuno Part 2 doesn't drop Heavy Metal Plates.

[Insaniac]

My guess would be that Zilart part 2 drops pouches. If they do make a Zilart part 2.

[Greatguardian]

My guess would be that Zilart part 2 drops pouches. If they do make a Zilart part 2.

I'd like that, but I've learned not to get my hopes up. I think the Devs are fully capable of expecting players to continuously do lower tiers if they want drops for Empyrean upgrades.

[Nynja]

Except that Jeuno Part 2 doesn't drop Heavy Metal Plates.

Except the use for rift cinder/dross isnt even in game yet, its actual use should coincide with the creation of the next tier of voidwatch

[Ravenmore]

Except the use for rift cinder/dross isnt even in game yet, its actual use should coincide with the creation of the next tier of voidwatch

You are trying to mix logic with SE logic, thats like crossing the streams.

[FrankReynolds]

Many of the arguments I see regarding "forcing 17 people" to come to ADL assume that all of them enter Dyna everyday to do their own stuff, and thus they are "giving up 1-3 mill" in opportunity cost. While this may be true in many instances, I would submit that the people who are trying to farm 1-3 mill each day in Dynamis are by and large the people who are trying to obtain Relic/Mythic of their own. But there are plenty of people who aren't working on Relic/Mythic. And Forgotten can be purchased for pretty cheap nowadays. I personally have no need to step into Dyna except for Arch Boss fights and drops.

If a guy doesn't do dynamis every day despite the fact that he could make 1-3 mil.....what makes you think he's going to do dynamis for you?

[Mahoro]

If a guy doesn't do dynamis every day despite the fact that he could make 1-3 mil.....what makes you think he's going to do dynamis for you?

For the last sentence of my post that you quoted. Or if it's an LS event. Definitely don't think ADL is PUG content.

[Babekeke]

Someone needs to show me how to make '1-3 mil' per dyna run ><

Is it just from BST solo?

[FrankReynolds]

For the last sentence of my post that you quoted. Or if it's an LS event. Definitely don't think ADL is PUG content.

1-3 mil is 1-3 mil. If I go to dynamis, that is how much I am earning. Making it an LS event doesn't change that.

Fair terms.... You pay everyone 1-3 mil per ADL run.

If your theory about everybody needing it and helping out etc is correct, you should get your ~billion gil back in no time by helping out your LS mates right? It sounds good in your head, but would you bet your gil on it? If your theory is sound, all that gil will come back right?

[Runespider]

Is SE cool with someone like me feeling stuck? Would they like us to see nothing but unreachable goals and decide to leave the game? Would they like us to resort to RMT? Digging 1500 plates and 60 rift whatevers out of the trash dumpster known as Voidwatch is about as realistic a goal as winning rank 1 in the Mog Bonanza. Buying them would require many of us to win said rank 1 Mog Bonanza more than once.

I'm just trying to warn you SE, that the direction you're going in will backfire. Your goal is to keep people around, but you're doing anything but.

This is the problem really, we all want to keep playing FFXI but they are just trying to push us away from it and I don't see why. The goals they are giving are just too much and I can't believe they don't get it. Most people are opting out of upgrading trials because they are too long and stupid, these are wonderful time sinks that would keep many people paying the monthly sub cheaply but they put the carrot too far away.

I know SE of the past made goals that took years, most players don't want that anymore. They want goals that take 4-6 months tops and new goals afterwards. Yeah that's more work for the dev team but FFXI makes more than enough profits to warrant it.

[Kristal]

If it was a reasonable amount of kills that several relic holders could group together to do, that would at least be somewhat plausible. I could see myself helping with that once a week or once a month for x amount of times. Hopefully all the feedback will result in something more realistic for the relic holders.

The problem with kills is that it would be very unbalanced. PLD could equip Excalibur and Aegis, while MNK can only equip Spharai. And don't think you can come RDM/NIN (Excal+Mandau) either, because ADL doesn't strike me as a NM you want to PUG...
Oh, and don't forget you need to be alive for kills to count...

Throughout the whinestorm that has broken out, some people actually did suggest a few good options. For example, add Umbral Marrow as a type of 100 currency, so you have a very small chance to see it drop from NMs in Xarcabard, with DL always dropping 1, and ADL dropping several (pouch with 4~12). This puts relic 99 stage 1 at the difficulty of first two stages of the 75 relic (~20 [100]s), and relic 99 stage 2 at the difficulty of 7 completed 75 relics (7x~150 [100]s).

Possibly add the requirement that at least one ADL has to be killed for stage 1 trial.

[Runespider]

The problem with kills is that it would be very unbalanced. PLD could equip Excalibur and Aegis, while MNK can only equip Spharai. And don't think you can come RDM/NIN (Excal+Mandau) either, because ADL doesn't strike me as a NM you want to PUG...
Oh, and don't forget you need to be alive for kills to count...

Magian trial could give an all job ranged slot item to record the kills for the particular trial you wanted to do, when completed you trade the weapon and the ranged item to the box to complete it.

[Unctgtg]

I love everyone's logic. Trying to compare this game to 4 years ago. Not going to happen. SE really is driving players away. If they really do require us to get 20 ADLs items, they will hear it even more. They might have gotten the idea, of the number of topics, not just in the NA forums but the rest, we do not want this, and it is frankly stupid for them to even bring this into the game. 20 ADL kills for stage 2 would be sufficient.

[Vold]

The problem with kills is that it would be very unbalanced. PLD could equip Excalibur and Aegis, while MNK can only equip Spharai. I don't see a problem here with a person knocking out two birds with one stone. Call it the one perk of being a PLD these days if you want. Not that I want a stupid ADL trial in any form.


Before I hit reply I just want to take this moment to say, Dear Dev team or more than likely just the Rep team because I doubt opinions are brought to the devs by name of the person who said it, I am well aware that this data here is not set in stone and nothing I have said assumes that it is set in stone. It is merely "saying it like it is" if they were to be set in stone which I assume is the point of you informing us so you can get feedback. Now, let's be real here. Those numbers would not be there if you weren't already 99.999% sure of them. Test sever data has held true so far going live aside from the few things that we heavily complained about in advance. You already dialed back stage 2, and stage 1 unfortunately at best will probably only be dialed back which no one wants because ADL sucks. My prediction: 5 ADL drops. But it is what it is and I would love to be proven wrong on this, even if it comes at another delay cost.

You can release figures like 9999 on the test server to sway complaints and perhaps you should because I do get tired of seeing test server data effect live server economies in advance, but be warned that it is better to get feedback and backlash more or less BEFORE something goes live, because we both know what happens when it happens for live content. We're waiting until the next update+ for anything to be done about it. I rather it just not be live until it's ready. Not to mention with every... questionable individual who completes such trials makes it increasingly harder to stick it to them. We all know the lv95 Empyrean plates are gonna get bitch slapped with an adjustment. Either they'll get cut down to size or plates will be made readily available. You're just waiting so it doesn't sting so much to the handful of people who threw their gil at it in the first couple weeks of going live. You admit this yourselves. It's not like I'm sensing it in the force or something, you openly admit to releasing hard and at a later date easing up so more people can get through it.

I don't want to wait several months on stage 1 adjustments because people like Atoreis jumped head first into the trials "weeeeeeeee I want to see lv99 on my weapon, price not an issue!!!" because they have nothing better to do than farm/buy for a trial that doesn't even exist on live servers yet. I guess something to do is better than nothing I just don't want to be the one suffering for it.

[Mahoro]

1-3 mil is 1-3 mil. If I go to dynamis, that is how much I am earning. Making it an LS event doesn't change that.

Fair terms.... You pay everyone 1-3 mil per ADL run.

If your theory about everybody needing it and helping out etc is correct, you should get your ~billion gil back in no time by helping out your LS mates right? It sounds good in your head, but would you bet your gil on it? If your theory is sound, all that gil will come back right?

Nope, because your opportunity cost theory doesn't apply to 100% of the people attending that LS event. Some will be relicholders who don't need to farm the 1-3 mill anymore. Some will be people who don't want a Relic/Mythic and so have no need to step into Dynamis to farm gil. Some will be people who want the Arch Boss drops in Xarca or other zones. Some people only log into the game for 3-4 hours a day, and on those nights they DO have LS events they don't do anything else so they don't mind using their Dynamis time because it would just go wasted anyway.

For all of the above people, the opportunity cost you cite is replaced by other drops or DKP, just as it is with ANY event someone attends in-game (i.e., just about everything you do in-game could be "replaced" by something in which you farm gil, including talking to people). As for the people who do farm 1-3 mill every day who skip an LS event, in the context of a large LS they likely won't find any help later on when their Relic is stuck at 95 for various reasons depending on shell policies or member temperament. in any event, a large LS won't spam Dyna. It would likely be an event mixed in under normal rotation with VW, WoE, Legion, Einherjar, etc., perhaps done 2-4 times a month or so.

[FrankReynolds]

. Some will be relicholders who don't need to farm the 1-3 mill anymore.

It will still be 2 hours that they could have spent making gil/gear etc. I dare say that these people know quite well the value of their time.


Some will be people who don't want a Relic/Mythic and so have no need to step into Dynamis to farm gil.

Then they probably won't do it for nothing.


Some will be people who want the Arch Boss drops in Xarca or other zones. For those people, the opportunity cost you cite is replaced by other drops or DKP.

These are not highly sought after. I wouldn't count on it.


As for the people who do farm 1-3 mill every day who skip, in the context of a large LS, at best they likely won't find any help later on when their Relic is 99. in any event, a large LS won't spam Dyna, it would likely be an event 2-4 times a month.

Regardless of how often you do it, or who you do it with, if you do an event that typically pays a bunch of cash and you don't pay anyone, they won't do it.

Just because a guy works as a plumber doesn't mean he will mow your lawn for free.

The opportunity cost theory applies to 100% of the people who have entered dynamis. Any time you enter dynamis, you have the option to either spend that time making money, or not making money.

[Mahoro]

It will still be 2 hours that they could have spent making gil/gear etc. I dare say that these people know quite well the value of their time.

Then they won't get their own relics to 99, per my post regarding LS policies or member temperament. It's cutting your nose off to spite your face, is it not? Also, it's possible some people stop farming the 1-3 mill once they obtain their Relic/Mythic, because these (and I suppose HMPs/Riftitems) are the only reason left in-game to HAVE hundreds of millions of gil.


Then they probably won't do it for nothing.

Read my post again. They aren't doing it for nothing.




These are not highly sought after. I wouldn't count on it.

Oneiros Grip, Avesta Bangles, Tjukurrpa Belt, and other Arch Boss drops are highly sought after by some people. In the context of a large LS, any Arch Boss event would rotate those events in.



Regardless of how often you do it, or who you do it with, if you do an event that typically pays a bunch of cash and you don't pay anyone, they won't do it.

They would, if you can replace that opportunity cost per my post. Not everything boils down to 1-3 mill, else nobody would ever do any LS events when they can just farm gil.

Keep in mind, I'm supportive of revising the trial because SE deliberately misled a majority of the playerbase with their proclamations regarding this trial. The point of my post is to illustrate the only feasible way the trial CAN be achieved, and how I would personally do it as one of the leaders of a large LS. The trial is actually quite flawed, because even in a large LS that does Dyna-Xarc 2-3 times a month, that means it will take years for every relic in a shell to be upgraded. Sadly, SE appears to only want a small percentage of Relics reach 99.

[Kristal]

Magian trial could give an all job ranged slot item to record the kills for the particular trial you wanted to do, when completed you trade the weapon and the ranged item to the box to complete it.

I'm sure COR, RNG, PUP and BRD would like to know where to sent the flowers. (COR and PUP would then remark they don't got relics anyway, but joined out of sympathy.)

[Greatguardian]

I'm sure COR, RNG, PUP and BRD would like to know where to sent the flowers. (COR and PUP would then remark they don't got relics anyway, but joined out of sympathy.)

This is only really relevant for Cor. Bard can just macro out their gjallar after songs. No one would bring a Rng or a Pup to a zerg anyways.

[Camiie]

The problem with kills is that it would be very unbalanced. PLD could equip Excalibur and Aegis, while MNK can only equip Spharai. And don't think you can come RDM/NIN (Excal+Mandau) either, because ADL doesn't strike me as a NM you want to PUG...
Oh, and don't forget you need to be alive for kills to count...


What about BRD with Mandau and Gjallarhorn? Oh and SAM can have Amano and Yoichi!

Yeah, just forget about making a reasonable system because 4 jobs can equip 2 relics at once. Yessiree that's a total game breaker right there! Some jobs can occasionally work on 2 "normal" Magian trials at the same time... I'm ashamed to say I have done this before... You know we should probably scrap the whole Magian system since that's horribly unbalanced!

[Tinuviel]

Reading several posts, I want to distill 2 very valuable messages that I hope the dev team takes out of this thread.

1. The player landscape has changed dramatically over the past few years. The vast majority of players no long operate in large LS that coordinate their player resources. Most content is done in small groups now... and this is something has SE has encouraged with the LVL cap increase (and abyssea). SE needs to understand that they created this landscape and design future content to FOLLOW THROUGH with it. WoE was redone to require large groups (just try clearing path+10 with 6ppl) and it gets done much less now, and Einherjar wont see anyone until it becomes 6mannable. I think everyone is disappointed with Legion before its even been released because they're anticipating it will require large groups. People love smallgroups because its more efficient, you waste less time waiting around on people to gather or waiting to find people, and you spend more time playing with friends. SE needs to accept that this is the direction the game is going and own it.

Conclusion: Designing ultimate weapon trials (lvl95-99) that require huge time commitments from a large number of people (arch-dynalord or PW) makes SE look severly out of touch with their own game and due to are causing frustration in the player base

2. Stage 1 and Stage 2 ultimate weapon trials shouln't be the same with different numbers, they should be complementary. OK, SE, if you want to get people working together, you should balance the trials and encourage people to work together by design. This is not hard. Make stage 1 of upgrades simple defeating of the target NM, and then make stage 2 of the upgrade to require x number of items from the same NM. This will result in large number of players to work together on defeating these NMs and all get their upgrades. Second, only a small number of these players will care to pursue stage 2, so the NM drops generated by stage 1 players should make it possible for a select few to accomplish stage 2. These drops should be bazaarable.

Conclusion: Requiring an item for stage 1 trials to accomplish LVL99 ultimate weapons is an enormous increase in difficulty for accomplishing the trial. Players do not want to be forced into begging friends to sacrifice time/money to help them for extended periods of time (50+ hours, etc). The challenge of the game shouldn't be to see who can impose on their friends the most, or who can take advantage of a LS's manpower the most. See message #1 if you dont understand!!

[Kimble]

1) When did RNG become bad for zergs?

2) You can be dead when you kill VNM for empy trials and get credit.

[Camate]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

[Nynja]

I'm glad the idea of moving to killshots has been shot down. All you have to do is look at the 95 cap fight to see why: anyone stuck at 95 now is pretty much stuck, and thats for one quick fight.

But really, I'm curious...how many Umbral Marrows have actually been created across all the active servers combined that the devs are afraid to modify the trial at this point? SE has changed things with greater implications in the past:
-Total experience needed to level up from 50-75
-Experience point caps
-Salvage drop rates
-Alexandrite for mythic (not that anyone was close to obtaining the 50k at the time afaik)
-Thief's Knife change (40 mil item dropped to a 50k item within a week)

the fear of upsetting the handful of players who MAYBE already started farming marrows pales in comparison to some of the above mentioned changes. Anyone who went out of their way to pre-farm items with absolutely no idea how many would be needed honestly deserves to get screwed. Theres nothing stopping them from selling any excess anyways.

[saevel]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

Ok could the Dev's look into making the NM's drop more then one of that particular item then?

18 people fighting for one person's upgrade isn't going to work. There have been many relics / emp's created and most likely any group will have six or more people needing the item.

[FrankReynolds]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

The correct number of items is 1.

[Chriscoffey]

Camate while I understand where their logic is coming come expecting 17 other people to get you an item WITHOUT ANY BENEFIT to them is not going to work unless it drops for mutiple NMs. If they expect relic holders to find 17 people to be their slaves for almost a month on ADL it won't be completed for most people. This doesn't even get into the ADL numbers for stage 2. I don't mind working and having somewhat a challenge for upgrading my relic but considering ADL and his pop requirements and killing strategy I doubt I see myself getting that kind of help.

[macross]

That's why they should just change it to getting 1m exp in dynamis with weapon equipped. I mean the function is already there since we do this for the relic+2 upgrades. Or maybe 1m xp + 1 adl drop etc.

[Nynja]

That's why they should just change it to getting 1m exp in dynamis with weapon equipped. I mean the function is already there since we do this for the relic+2 upgrades. Or maybe 1m xp + 1 adl drop etc.

Once again, because you obviously ignored my last post, and you have your "I have a 95 ukon" blinders on:

You can get 1 million xp off Rex in 8 sets, presuming you're trading xp cells and getting capped yellow light. In one tav run, 3boxing clusters and leeches, I got about 5800 xp. 1000 / 5.8 = 173 days. That makes sense! How much xp do you think someone soloing would get per run? How much xp do you think a full alliance would get even if they were slaughtering DC's the entire time?

[Alhanelem]

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. This is the whole thing though- you're not likely to fill an entire alliance with people doing the same trial (or a trial requiring the same item).

The development team needs to strongly consider reassessing how much time they want players to spend on this. Most of the game's veterans, who have bene playing a long time, are older now and cannot devote the same amount of time to the game as they did when they first started. The game needs to move away from horrible grinds, and towards content with a little more depth.

[Soidisant]

I'm honestly at a loss for words with just out of touch the developers are with the player base. I mean we knew it was bad but the devs seriously think that?

They think it should require 18 people to kill a mob multiple times to finish 1 persons 99 Relic? And then have that mob be restricted by a once per RL day limit. Plus all the pre-pop NM's and the main NM are going to be a huge bottleneck because there's only 1 ??? for all the NM's pops and hundreds of Relics per server.

Unless Umbral Marrow is made available from other sources then it is a completely unreasonable trial. Congestion, in-game restrictions and mob difficulty just make it a ludicrous trial even if the required number of items was vastly reduced. I would rather do the Empyrean or Mythic trial instead. Hell, I would rather do both of them instead.

Bottom line is that this trial is hugely demoralising to 99.9% of relic holders out there. I know I just won't bother with it if I'm still playing at that point. And I can say with 100% certainty that applies to all 15 Relics in my LS.

[Insaniac]

"The imaginary balance god will smite us if we accidentally make the trial easier in the process of making it unstupid."

I don't think a kill trial was the answer either but telling us they would basically have to multiply the number required by 18 for the sake of balance is such a load of bullshit. They seem to be completely ignoring the time restriction, the difficulty of the mob, the trade off people make for helping with a run, and the massive gap between number of relics in circulation and the number of mythics/95 emps.

From an outside perspective it seems like the only thing they are thinking when designing this garbage is "HERP 10 < 20 < 60!! EMPS R TEH HARDEST!! MYTHICS R TEH EASIEST!!"

[Gaspee]

An unfortunate decision by the development team.

All I can say is that the fan-base, unequivocally, disagrees with how these trials are primed to progress. From what I can see, this is the majority opinion across all NA fan forums.

[Washburn]

so, if people start farming an item before the trial is even made, we're going to be lazy, sorry fucks and ask the world of a diminishing population to follow through with the rediculousness! yes! Ghadafi died and went to hell (SE's main office)

[Zubis]

Thanks for trying Camate, it is appreciated. However...



Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.


This is probably the most disheartening thing I have read about FFXI in the last number of years.
The idea that in 2012 a MMO will design events that will literally take a year non-stop to accomplish is absolutely unbelievable.

18 players x 20 items each is 360 fights (with a daily restriction of one). A year. Just...no.

[FrankReynolds]

I vote for a new development team strategy. I say that the devs must play the game, and they cannot implement content that they have not completed themselves.

IE: the devs should go home after work every night, and do this stupid friggin trial 2 hours a day for the next year (no pay for this, it's a game remember) and then come back and tell us how fun it was before they put this crap into the game.

The responses from these guys completely defy logic.

[detlef]

Well... I may have lost hope in other things. But two hopes remain:

1. Lower the number of ADL items to 1.
2. Add Marrow to other NMs.

Those are my two flickers of hope.

[Spiritreaver]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

@bold

Why not just the items collected so far count as kills and go ahead and set the trial to kills as opposed to item collection ad nausea?

I mean at this point the development team's dangerously close to used-car salesman behavior imo, they need to start throwing players some serious bones. Post haste.

[Kimble]

Its not like the items would then have no use. If someone has any of them, they can just sale them to someone actually working on Stage 2.

If SE says that isn't reasonable, all they are doing is admitting that no one will be doing Stage 2 then.

[Unctgtg]

Really SE, the more your development team opens their mouth, the more they sound like the US government. Complete morons. This is completely and utter disrespectful to your player base. We have tried to level with you, but of course your team is lost. We propose simple easy changes and you are doing exactly what you did during beta in 14. NOTHING and implementing your own ideas. Your changes should be one of the following.

1 item needed
10000 Kills of any mob.
10 ADL Team Kills.

Tell your development team to stop working on changes to the game that are worthless and dead. If not I will be taking my 60 dollars a month to another game, and I am sure I am not the only one. Remember the customer is always right. We are trying to make your company better but when you continue to ignore your own supporters, it is really not a good business practice.

[Runespider]

So they want people to build alliances for this over and over and then all 18 people to random lot over the 1! drop and do this till everyone has completed their relic. Imagine joining a pickup and having to outlot 17 other people every single time... lol

Why did they say that this was something almost everyone could accomplish, this is nonsense.

What they are doing here is making a blatantl huge, cheap time sink, but it's just pushed so far it's not time sink at all cause too many will just decide it's not worth doing at all lol the 2nd trial being the same items is to make sure the kind of people taht shout to make groups will keep on doing so for everyone else doing stage 1.

At least we can see they are stuck in their idea and have no intrest in changing it.

[Nervosa]

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Its not like people are turning them in for credit, its not even live yet.
Anyways, they could always sell the items or maybe theyre working on stage 2 since that also uses the same items as stage 1. OR you could make another trial where the item is worth a set number of kills.



Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

I dont see how this is even an issue. The 90 and 95 trials requiered killing a NM X number of times and multiple people could get credit. Hell, the level 90 NMs overlaps 3 trials and is only 5 kills.
Both of them could have been made so you have to get Attestation / Fragment X number of times and turn them in. This would have drastically slowed the progression to upgrade which it seems the dev team is trying to do for 99.

While I don't think Stage 1 is all that bad, does the dev team really think there's enough life in the game for someone to finish a Stage 2 weapon (that isn't an empy) ?

[wish12oz]

Hey! Remember when that other team at SE decided not to listen to their players when they said FF14 was turning out to be garbage? You're doing the same again SE! Learn from your past mistakes and don't implement these shit trials. NO ONE likes them.

[Vold]

Good job letting 0.0000000000000000000000001% of players dictate the live content you release. I'm so thrilled a handful of people collecting ADL drops gets priority over 7,000. Don't make them pay for jumping the gun, just keep it as it is and piss off everyone but them. That's okay I'll wait 6 months or a year when it finally hits the devs at the round table: Ya know, maybe we should change this now. Like 100 relic holders own the lv99 weapon. This ADL business was an really stupid idea... Naaaaah you don't say. Too bad you didn't have people around to tell you it was a bad idea sooner. If only you had a couple hundred thousand customers that could provide customer feedback so stuff like this wouldn't happen.

The reality of the situation is this: We don't feel like changing it at this point, and people collecting items already gives us a somewhat valid excuse not to bother. We want lv99 ultimate weapons to be super rare. Deal with it.

[Washburn]

well, i can honestly say i feel like i had $15 stolen from me, i fkn knew the day i reactivated my account, they'd come back and shit down my neck with this load.

I logged out as soon as i read camate's news, and i'll be honest, in my almost 8 years of playing this, this is the most retarded bullshit i've seen. It pisses me off 10 times more knowing they announced this shit the day after the billing cycle. i feel like johnny knoxville shot me with a dildo bazooka.

[Nala]

I vote for a new development team strategy. I say that the devs must play the game, and they cannot implement content that they have not completed themselves.

IE: the devs should go home after work every night, and do this stupid friggin trial 2 hours a day for the next year (no pay for this, it's a game remember) and then come back and tell us how fun it was before they put this crap into the game.

The responses from these guys completely defy logic.

OMG yes this x10000000000000

[ishvara]

I much rather have a higher kill count, than a lower number of items to collect. In Voidwatch, even with it's ultra sweet drop rate, lol : you have tons of shouts/yells that allow you to participate and get your own chest. Why not make the trials the same way, if we cant have straight up kill credit. Does SE want us to revert back to elitist LS, where the shell holders and sacks get everything first. Let the relic/mythic/emp's get a chance to enjoy their 99 weapons, sooner, rather than later.

[Unctgtg]

"Stage 1
Possible upgrades will include damage, delay, and weapon skill damage along with other attributes.
The planned difficulty level for the corresponding Magian upgrade trials will be such that a majority of players with the appropriate level 95 equipment will likely be able to complete them.
*This content is not yet available on the test server."

Majority you say in there. Majority = 85% or higher, not .0000000000000001% that stage 2 will get. Follow your own words SE. Change it, or lose your player base.

[Nynja]

I don't think a kill trial was the answer either but telling us they would basically have to multiply the number required by 18 for the sake of balance is such a load of bullshit.

You mean BSTx18 all upgrading Guttlers can kill ADL? Oh wait, you mean you need healers and Perfect Defense and actual DD's?

[Frost]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

I may be a little confused here...

Is this sarcasm?

[SpankWustler]

"The imaginary balance god will smite us if we accidentally make the trial easier in the process of making it unstupid."

He smites everyone all the time forever, in order to keep it balanced. For every really inspired spell or ability added, there's another that isn't even worth the 2+ seconds of melee-time you lose for it. For every tree that grows in Brooklyn, a tree falls and crushes someone to death in Arkansas. For every awesome weapon added, one more person undertakes the Magian Trial for a horrible thing that Occasionally Attacks 2-4 Times with horrible distribution and horrible delay. For every rare animal that is shown compassion and saved, one gorilla is captured and shaved and put to work in a brothel.


I don't think a kill trial was the answer either but telling us they would basically have to multiply the number required by 18 for the sake of balance is such a load of bullshit. They seem to be completely ignoring the time restriction, the difficulty of the mob, the trade off people make for helping with a run, and the massive gap between number of relics in circulation and the number of mythics/95 emps.

This. This to infinity.

They didn't take the incentives for killing the monster into account, either. Archie the Dynamis Lord drops stuff that was never that good and he drops that stuff at a disappointing rate, Pandemonium Warden drops stuff that while awesome at 75 is more pointless than performing breast augmentation on a young boy's corpse, and the Voidwatch things drop...Oh, hey, stuff that actually makes people want to fight them; trial or no trial.

[Washburn]

Majority you say in there. Majority = 85% or higher, not .0000000000000001% that stage 2 will get. Follow your own words SE. Change it, or lose your player base.

as of right now, they're -3 if you count my mules.

[Unctgtg]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

Do you realize what the team is saying, those that already killed him for the items, they can be working on Stage 2. Don't sit there and tell us that SE programmers are that lame.

[Raucent]

an aspect the devs should look into: compare what the trial item is AND what else the target trial NM drops... for a low level example lets take idk Sobek it drops items that ppl do need yes but there is no way in hell you'd get a single party willing to get you all 50 when they would need NOTHING from it after they get the +2 armor upgrades they need

[Washburn]

Oh and if they want to worry about balancing shit, they're gonna have a tough time balancing their checkbook if they keep this shit up. Let them figure out what realistic balancing is, then get back to me, i'll be on star wars.

[Catsby]

... and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.


Is the number of players who have already started collecting really that high? Is a refund really that hard to issue? Do people seriously get mad when something is altered to be better?



Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.


WTF? No! We both know how this game has been played for the last X number of years. When you have to turn shit in for uber weapons you have to turn A LOT of shit in. Nobody in that 18 person fight wants to be there more than once or twice unless there are other [significant] rewards to be had. Just lower the fucking requirements already.



Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

Why would there be a huge gap? What the hell? Do the devs not see these 40+ page threads about how people are tired of putting in more work for less results?

[Nynja]

Is the number of players who have already started collecting really that high? Is a refund really that hard to issue? Do people seriously get mad when something is altered to be better?

Theres no need to refund...that would be admitting that no ones going to upgrade a stage 2 99 relic

[Camiie]

Your changes should be one of the following.

1 item needed


But then they'd just make that one item have a drop rate so astronomically low that it'd make a Voidwatch Chest seem like a Test Server Moogle.

[Juilan]

Camate while I understand where their logic is coming come expecting 17 other people to get you an item WITHOUT ANY BENEFIT to them is not going to work unless it drops for mutiple NMs. If they expect relic holders to find 17 people to be their slaves for almost a month on ADL it won't be completed for most people. This doesn't even get into the ADL numbers for stage 2. I don't mind working and having somewhat a challenge for upgrading my relic but considering ADL and his pop requirements and killing strategy I doubt I see myself getting that kind of help.

Solution: Dev team will give you a signal pearl at start of the trial and a GM will kill it for you once you use it!

[Vold]

Why would there be a huge gap? What the hell? Do the devs not see these 40+ page threads about how people are tired of putting in more work for less results?

That's their answer to everything. SE knows that it'll take people a long time to finish this trial. They WANT it. Otherwise they wouldn't be spewing about having a kill trial being multiplied over drops. Nevermind that getting just 20 kills would take how long for the average relic holder? I don't even want to think about it. So what would they chose? 50 kills? 100 kills? Whatever they think will match the amount of effort to get stage 1 with ADL drops. Are they thinking 1 out of 18 kills? 18 people alliance, 1 per drop every kill? So like, hold on let me do the math on that... oh ok, 360 kills. Yeah.

Lolololololololololololololol. I'm so past the rage stage and am into the laughter stage. This trolling is pretty epic. Hit it, Rick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)!

Aww don't worry my fellow Japanese brothers and sisters, I didn't forget about you! Hit it, Japanese Rick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgp7rpIB4h8)!

[Washburn]

He smites everyone all the time forever, in order to keep it balanced. For every really inspired spell or ability added, there's another that isn't even worth the 2+ seconds of melee-time you lose for it. For every tree that grows in Brooklyn, a tree falls and crushes someone to death in Arkansas. For every awesome weapon added, one more person undertakes the Magian Trial for a horrible thing that Occasionally Attacks 2-4 Times with horrible distribution and horrible delay. For every rare animal that is shown compassion and saved, one gorilla is captured and shaved and put to work in a brothel.



This. This to infinity.

They didn't take the incentives for killing the monster into account, either. Archie the Dynamis Lord drops stuff that was never that good and he drops that stuff at a disappointing rate, Pandemonium Warden drops stuff that while awesome at 75 is more pointless than performing breast augmentation on a young boy's corpse, and the Voidwatch things drop...Oh, hey, stuff that actually makes people want to fight them; trial or no trial.

you're picture is about as creepy as the cover of "The Shining". Take it as a compliment. I'm proud of you.

[Washburn]

That's their answer to everything. SE knows that it'll take people a long time to finish this trial. They WANT it. Otherwise they wouldn't be spewing about having a kill trial being multiplied over drops. Nevermind that getting just 20 kills would take how long for the average relic holder? I don't even want to think about it. So what would they chose? 50 kills? 100 kills? Whatever they think will match the amount of effort to get stage 1 with ADL drops. Are they thinking 1 out of 18 kills? 18 people alliance, 1 per drop every kill? So like, hold on let me do the math on that... oh ok, 360 kills. Yeah.

Lolololololololololololololol. I'm so past the rage stage and am into the laughter stage. This trolling is pretty epic. Hit it, Rick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)!

Aww don't worry my fellow Japanese brothers and sisters, I didn't forget about you! Hit it, Japanese Rick (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgp7rpIB4h8)!

i cant believe i fell for that rick roll....

[Unctgtg]

Thread over here as well.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20068-dev1065-Petition-for-removal-of-item-requirement-for-R-M-E-upgrades

[Buffy]

I'd rather have 500 PW kills, then 300 PW x1 drop.

Edit: Actually, keep the stage 1 trial as item drops, make the stage 2 trial mob kills. This way everyone can make progress. And people who have completed stage 1, will help others complete stage 1.

SE, listen to your player base in this.

Experiences/trials that cause people to work together towards a common goal are a benefit to the community. It builds relationships and causes trust. If I know 10 other people that need to kill PW, I can work with them and co-ordinate on building pops and kills.

But when we each need a drop, and that drop is uncommon, we become competitors. We don't work together, we don't build relationships. Relationships are the core of this game. Poll your players, most of them play because of the people they play with, not because they just HAVE to kill Akvan 73 more times.

I play because of my linkshell and the people that I know in real life that I met through the game.

In fact, doesn't SE assert that they don't want players competing over drops and selling them? Isn't this the whole logic behind the horrible, horrible drop system that is voidwatch?

Let us work together, benefiting ourselves, but others at the same time.

[casual]

The only way this will end well is if they make the trial requirement 1 item or add Umbral marrow to a lot of different dynamis NMs. That or the dev team can get their heads out of their asses and listen to the player base. Killshots will not upset any balance, I bet a total of 10 umbral marrow have been collected intentionally across all servers.

[Arkanethered]

Forget it... I'm done.

[Babygyrl]

I dont think the developers even care, You get our Hopes up, Stating that ALMOST EVERYONE with a relic will be able to complete stage 1 of the 99 trial, but then you throw this in our face. It is NOT possible to do this trial for EVERY relic owner, hell not even MOST relic owners in a timely manner, you completely lied to our faces, even if the number turns out to be 1, ADL is terrible, and people will still be screwed because people are not going to fight ADL 50 times for everyone relic weapon.

[Nala]

freaking wow... i'm just shocked at this point... well as an idea how about all peeps make thier own thread about R/M trial requirements, if 1 post with a shit ton of likes doesnt fly just barrage them with posts........ FFS whats wrong with these retards.........

[deces]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.
My name is Hitler, and I approve of this message.

[Ravenmore]

Camate how about you pass this on to the devs, they are not just craping on FFXI they are effectively killing any chance they might have had at getting current FFXI players over to 14. On top of 14 already doing the low drop rate crap they pullig here the critics will point to the mess they allowed to happen to FFXI and give people even more reason to stay away from your MMO titles. There is a limit to what even fanboys can put up with.

On another note which smaller studio do you think SE will have to eat next to get titles they haven't already put under.

[BotosiAsura]

Honestly all this shows is the dev's complete lack of respect for its customers, especially the long term ones who have been playing for a long time and have had their relics before the dynamis update. It's obvious what the community wants, but they'd rather be stubborn about it.

[Seriha]

Stage 2 aside, if concerns of people collecting marrow is wasted, then simply allow them to trade them in on the Stage 1 phase for X amount of kill credit, maybe 3-4 per. If the requirement is then 20 kills, it would take 5 or 7 marrows. Post-patch, people will then be more likely to be doing the fights themselves with others. Do 18 fights with everyone needing kill credit and they can all get 1 marrow to trade to complete without needing to do the last 2. Sure, people are unlikely to be doing more than a couple ADLs per Xarc, but for those operating in a linkshell, it's more likely everyone participating won't have a relic. Thus, the choice can be made to give the marrows to those who do so they can finish more quickly, or give them to someone who's not quite on that phase yet the ability to play catch up.

[Babekeke]

It seems fairly straight forwards to me... you pay the other 17 people in your group 1 mil each to do ADL with you. Assuming that you farm your own pop set before-hand, and can then farm another pop set with each group and kill 2 ADLs within that 2 hour frame; it's 170 mil for the 1st stage to a 99 relic. This is assuming he averages 1 UM per fight.

The fewer number of people that you can kill him with, or the more ADLs you can kill per run = the less it will cost you.

[Arcon]

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Um... yes? They say that as if that was news to anyone, when it was, in fact, the entire point we've been trying to make. We want the number of finished trials to rise significantly, because right now it's absurdly low. Hence we suggested killshots. Alternatively, we suggested to lower the required amount of items, again, to reduce the retardly low number of people who'd ever finish this. Why else would we be complaining? Please tell the development team that the number of finished trials going up isn't an overlooked side-effect of a new method we'd prefer for some other mysterious reason, but the entire point of this exercise. It's not bad that this number is going up. It's good and we want it, that's why we suggest it. It's bad that the number is currently so low. Yes, bad. Very bad. They've been a fucking naughty development team and they shouldn't be surprised if everyone wants to spank them now. And not in the good way.


I'm glad the idea of moving to killshots has been shot down. All you have to do is look at the 95 cap fight to see why: anyone stuck at 95 now is pretty much stuck, and thats for one quick fight.

As opposed to one guy who'll need the 20 marrows after everyone else is done? Even if some compromises in job selection have to be made, as long as the number is the same, killshots will average a lot better than item collection, invariably.

[Aldersyde]

It seems fairly straight forwards to me... you pay the other 17 people in your group 1 mil each to do ADL with you. Assuming that you farm your own pop set before-hand, and can then farm another pop set with each group and kill 2 ADLs within that 2 hour frame; it's 170 mil for the 1st stage to a 99 relic. This is assuming he averages 1 UM per fight.

The fewer number of people that you can kill him with, or the more ADLs you can kill per run = the less it will cost you.

Is this sarcasm? I really can't tell.

[Damane]

I am done bitching. This is fucking pointless.
I am glad I will never start playing FFXIV and will stay away from SE products in the futur generaly.

[Kimble]

I can understand not wanting to play MMO's by SE, but really going to stop playing ANY game SE makes?

[Insaniac]

I am done bitching. This is fucking pointless.
I am glad I will never start playing FFXIV and will stay away from SE products in the futur generaly.I kinda agree. The past week not playing has been pretty awesome so I'm not sure why I'm still arguing to get them to change it. Maybe I just miss my FFXI friends ;_;

[Damane]

I can understand not wanting to play MMO's by SE, but really going to stop playing ANY game SE makes?

I stoped buying the Final Fantasy games after VIII alllready, not missing them kind of. Gave FFXIII a try and found it utter bullshit. And everything else from them has gone to garbage too, so yeah I dont need SE products when there is stuff like mass effect, skyrim etc. I will keep on playing FFXI, but my motivation kind of slipped away with no hope that this trial would ever change. Lets see how long that keeps me going.
Everytime I think now of a SE game, I have this bitter stomach feeling, because of those stupid things they did in FFXI.

Waiting on Guild Wars 2.

[Kraggy]

Hey! Remember when that other team at SE decided not to listen to their players when they said FF14 was turning out to be garbage? You're doing the same again SE! Learn from your past mistakes and don't implement these shit trials. NO ONE likes them.
Exactly my thoughts as I was reading the replies to this utterly depressing information from Camate.

It's also depressing to see how Yoshi and the 'new' XIV team are bending over backwards to try to listen and accommodate players' suggestions and criticisms as they [SE] work on XIV 2.0, while the XI team after a period a year or so back of apparently learning from the years of completely ignoring the XI playerbase and making many changes to XI to make it more 'user friendly' (and reaping much praise for their changed attitude), have now sunk back into their former deaf-to-the-players state.

I'm not an end-gamer, I don't have a relic and never will, but their back-to-group-or-die design also has an impact on those of us who play solo or in small (read 'usually less than full') groups: witness the 95 Limit Break as another example.

[Kimble]

I really wonder why people hate XIII so much. I thought it was a pretty fun game.

[Maacha]

It seems fairly straight forwards to me... you pay the other 17 people in your group 1 mil each to do ADL with you. Assuming that you farm your own pop set before-hand, and can then farm another pop set with each group and kill 2 ADLs within that 2 hour frame; it's 170 mil for the 1st stage to a 99 relic. This is assuming he averages 1 UM per fight.

The fewer number of people that you can kill him with, or the more ADLs you can kill per run = the less it will cost you.

You do realize that you pretty much need Perfect Defense in order to kill him, right? Since that's a 2 hour ability, you can't use it more than once during a single dynamis run. Unless you brought spare summoners (lol), you can't do more than 1 ADL per day.

SE already lost me and my $60 per month because of this and other "balance" issues, my accounts were cancelled a few days ago. I wonder when my forum access will be cut off...

[Tamoa]

It seems fairly straight forwards to me... you pay the other 17 people in your group 1 mil each to do ADL with you. Assuming that you farm your own pop set before-hand, and can then farm another pop set with each group and kill 2 ADLs within that 2 hour frame; it's 170 mil for the 1st stage to a 99 relic. This is assuming he averages 1 UM per fight.

The fewer number of people that you can kill him with, or the more ADLs you can kill per run = the less it will cost you.

Are you serious?? Worst case scenario that'll cost a relic owner 340 million gil - how can you, or anyone else think that's reasonable in any way, shape or form??? I really, truly hope you're being sarcastic - or could it possibly be the fact that you don't own a relic and maybe noone in your ls owns one either? "It doesn't affect me personally so it's ok" - right?


As for Camate's post - first of all, Camate you've said that you do indeed play this game, I wonder what you really think of this? And yes I know you won't answer that, but still, I do wonder... I'm also sorry that you have to post such nonsense.


The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

So what? Seriously, so what? It's those players' own damn fault for jumping the gun, so to speak. And if the numbers were to be changed, and it turns out they have more items than they need, they could sell the excess, you know? Or what others have already suggested, if the trial is changed from X amount of items to X amount of kills, they could turn in the items and get kill credit. Or sell them to those poor saps that actually go for the stage 2 weapon.

[Aldersyde]

I really wonder why people hate XIII so much. I thought it was a pretty fun game.

XIII suffers from what every FF has suffered from since VIII came out...that it isn't FFVII or FFVII-2 or a remake of FFVII.

I've seriously enjoyed every FF that's ever come out, even Mystic Quest. Sometimes I think people find it's more fun to nitpick at games than actually play them.

[Elgorian]

Yeah, I loved XIII and XIII-2 should be here in the morning.

On-Topic:

You know what we need? A strike. If Idk... 50-60% of the playerbase... canceled there account for hell just a month... it would hurt them bad. If they won't listen to reason then why not give them something to listen to? Something that will show them what the future of this game looks like if they keep pulling this shit.

[Kimble]

Lol, I always kinda felt it was something like that. For most people, VII was the greatest game ever made, so any game that isnt VII, is going to suck for them.

[TMG]

If they really go through with this trial, I feel like I might as well go ahead and finish my 95 Mandau, then proceed to toss it as soon as the moogle hands it to me, log out and cancel payments on both of my accounts. That seems to be what they want. Do they hate money that much? I've tried to tell myself they aren't REALLY trying to kill the game every time someone says it but I'm starting to believe it now. That's how much of a slap in the face this whole situation feels to me. I've probably given them more than $2500 over the last 6 years, that's pretty shitty to think about with the way they're treating their customers.

I think when my living situation gets worked out here in a few months, I'm going to be cancelling both of my XI accounts and my XIV account (which will probably go sooner because that game isn't worth paying for as it is), and my fiance will probably follow suit, so they'll be out ~$70 a month due to this retardation if they really keep it up. If they actually keep their word and fix this stupid trial so that MOST players can complete it, we'll reconsider. Imagine if every relic holder stopped paying them over this. Do the math SE, you're digging your own grave. Maybe that's what you want though.

[Aldersyde]

I stoped buying the Final Fantasy games after VIII alllready, not missing them kind of. Gave FFXIII a try and found it utter bullshit. And everything else from them has gone to garbage too, so yeah I dont need SE products when there is stuff like mass effect, skyrim etc. I will keep on playing FFXI, but my motivation kind of slipped away with no hope that this trial would ever change. Lets see how long that keeps me going.
Everytime I think now of a SE game, I have this bitter stomach feeling, because of those stupid things they did in FFXI.

Waiting on Guild Wars 2.

I find it absolutely hilarious that you call FFXIII bullshit while praising a bug-ridden game like Skyrim. You do know that if you play Skyrim on the 360 or PS3 long enough, it becomes nigh unplayable with freezing/lag issues right? Yeah, I know that those issues CAN be fixed but seriously, shit like that never should have made it out of the development studio, especially on a single player console game.

[Rezeak]

The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.


Really think that this stops them adding an alternate path to stage 1... no it doesn't

Basically 20 ADL kills should be the max of what people should be required to do meaning it should either be 1-2 items or 20 kills (if you have both paths available then u could have 5-10 items)

REALLY IT SHOULD WORK LIKE THIS THO

Stage 1 = 20 kills of ADL
Stage 2 = 100 ADL items

So that stage 1 feeds stage 2

Basically every relic user could get there stage 1 99 version and there would be around 1 stage 2 for every 150-200 relics which is exactly what you want right SE.

While this is the most clear option there are plenty of alternate way you can choose to fix this....

2000 coins = X U.marrow u need to complete stage 1.
U.marrow to drop of all NMs
M.trail neck that for 10k exp in Dyna = 1 U.marrow.

As for Mythics

Stage 1 : 1-2 PW kills (i'd go with 1 here cause the fight is v/ job specific)
Stage 2 : 10 PW items

Emps

Stage 1 : Kill any T6 X 30
Stage 2 :Riftxxxxx X 100-200

EIther way as for not playing FFXIV if ya add this or not ..... well i'm not gonna play it anyway cause i will never play another MMO made by SE while i enjoyed FFXI it focused tooo much on repeating the same stuff X10000.

but if you listen and make the trails relative then i'll prolly be playing FFXI for 2-3 more years to make more relic/mythic/emps since they don't take 1-2 years to get 99 (stage 1)

[Shadowsong]

This just pretty much sums up why anyone who has played XI will not buy any more Square Enix products for like, ever.
Anyone up for some Tales of Vesperia?

[Elgorian]

Anyone up for some Tales of Vesperia?

Love that game, and majority of tales games. ^^



On-Topic:



REALLY IT SHOULD WORK LIKE THIS THO

[COLOR="#4169e1"]Stage 1 = 20 kills of ADL
Stage 2 = 100 ADL items

So that stage 1 feeds stage 2


I completely agree with this, 100 items may seem a little high though, but the idea is in the right place. Stage 1 should be kills while the harder to complete should be the items themselves.

This way person A) 99 Stage 1 can farm pops and get person B) 95 to come and help out and it's pretty much win/win for both parties.

I think the whole reason people are BS'ing over these trials is.... the items are the exact same for both which is just not right. These relics/mythics/maybe not so much emps, are weapons of power, and the relics/mythics have more background to them through quests etc. maybe give these weapons a bit more depth with some kind of quest or storyline to go through for stage 1? Give our weapons a bit more depth before just jumping into the grind for 1000000000000000 items.

We've been doing these crazy collect X number of item trials since abyssea came out, and honestly we want something new, something unique. We want... new content. As awesome as the ADL is (yeaaaaa......right) what are we really accomplishing by just spamming him over and over and over and over? Are we proving that we're awesome players?! No not really. Maybe after a fight or two, but honestly after the 100th fight it really does just get......boring.

But where I stand on this:

Stage 1: NEEDS SERIOUS REVISIONS on the Relic/Mythic side at least, I don't want the exact same items used for stage 2 to be used for stage 1

Stage 2: Honestly sucks, but hey Stage 2 isn't supposed to be obtainable by "most players"

Might be somewhat redundent but the more people that speak out the better... or at least I'd like to think so.... SE -.-

[Helel]

You (devs) realize that you've invariably made relics the hardest weapons to upgrade? Camate posted your thought process of mythic > relic > empyrean, when in fact it is empyrean > mythic > relic (mythics may be easier than empyrean with zeni buff). But my point is that relics are so much more difficult than either mythic or empyrean; how could you ever fathom them being easier to upgrade than empyreans? Rift items are an absolute joke to get.

How is it fair that relic users can only farm items for their upgrade 2 hours a day when empyrean users can spam VWNMs all day long? It's almost guaranteed that at least one person out of the 18 will get 1 rift item, and since you seem to have no problem forcing people to lot over a single item (ADL drop), how is this any different from allowing those that receive rift items to give them to a single person until everyone completes their empyrean weapon. Basically what I'm saying is, assuming that only person is receiving the drop (like PW or ADL), empyrean users will only need to kill 20-60 VWNMs for each weapon. The difficulty of this upgrade is so far below relics that you'd have to be delusional to think otherwise.

[Muras]

Greetings!

I asked the development team about the possibility of changing the trial requirements from collecting specific items to straight up kills of the specific notorious monster, since there were quite a lot of comments regarding this topic.

Awesome, much appriciated as always.


The development team had looked into changing the trial requirements in this way; however, for a variety of reasons they decided it would be better to not make this change. The biggest reason for this decision is that it was explained previously on the forum that the basis for stage 1 enhancements would be item collection and their thinking is that as long as there are people who have already started collecting these items, it would be best not to change the trial.

Also, there is quite a difference in between item collection and kills. For item trials, in an 18 person fight, one person will receive an item. Whereas for a trial requirement involving a specific number of kills, in an 18 person fight, all 18 people would receive the kill credit. While it’s not really as simple as multiplying it 18 times, since the basic thinking would be that the kill count should be greater than the number of items, in the event that we were to change the trial requirements from item collection to kills, there is a high possibility that the number would rise significantly.

Currently since we are only looking into devising the appropriate number of items to collect, I am not going to be able to tell you an estimate of how many kills it would take, but please know that there would most likely be a huge gap between the numbers.

Then don't change the trial, just add alternative trials to reach the same result. Most people here would like a trial that can be done with 3-6 people or so. The small minority gets their weapon because they've been working on it already. The majority of people who haven't started (And can't gather an army at their command) can start their own unique trial that, while likely just as time consuming or even more so, can still get their weapon in the end as well. There's two important points:

1) It's win-win, the devs excuse is nonsense. We can make both work.
2) We know we can have two trials that lead to the same result, as seen with relic armor +2.

So please, ask the devs to stop lying and tell us the real reason why they're making the trial like this. That is unless, of course, they actually believe this nonsense themselves.

Also, why do they care about the amount of weapons that're 99 compared to 95 ones? What difference does it make other than some extra stats? Why does it matter if the number significantly rises? I'd especially like to know the devs thoughts on this question, so please Camate, if you could.

Even -one- item to collect off Arch Dynamis Lord is asking for a whole lot. Their player base has changed... The devs must realise this.

[Runespider]

I think the problem is they are trying to run 2-3 mmos now and they don't have the resources to do it, as such they are making these horrible massive time sink crap that's going to make the playerbase of all their games ragequit.

I put up with this crap in the past with salvage etc but after the fun I had with Abyssea and at this stage of the games life, this crap isn't going to fly. Everything since Abyssea has been crap ontop of more crap ontop of more crap, I'm really angry they are ruining a game I love so much. It's sad that they make horrible decisions and they never listen, never learn and keep pumping out more of it. Legion is going to be such a pile of crap, even if it's fun the drop system will make VW rage seem like a walk in the park. They are just so set in their ideal of punishing us all as players, maybe it's punishment for us all not loving 14 and him getting fired...idk.

The reposnses are madening because it's like talking to someone that refuses to listen to you and just pushes their own ideas, not budging an inch away from them..no matter how much you try to plead with them.

The thing about worrying about people that already started the trials is garbage too, my relic made 4 years ago (that took me 2 years) got no such thoughts when they made them so much easier to get now. The amount of killshots I had to do on it at the begining just before they nerfed them to 1/4 of the amounts had similar attention to the work I put in, they don't care about who started the trial at all.

Nothing against Camate, since he is jsut the messenger but the devs are being frigging stupid and arrogant.


EIther way as for not playing FFXIV if ya add this or not ..... well i'm not gonna play it anyway cause i will never play another MMO made by SE while i enjoyed FFXI it focused tooo much on repeating the same stuff X10000.

This so much, after being punished for being a long time subscriber to their flagship MMO the way we are being here I don't know how anyone could ever considering playing any other MMO put out by Square. Unless you like being crapped on anyway.

[Byrth]

This post on FFXIAH has a useful solution that solves all the problems posed:

I think an easy fix for the weapons would be to leave the 99 trial as is, but hear me out.

To get to level 99 stage:
20 Umbral Marrow for Relics
10 Mulcibar's Scoria for Mythics
60 Riftdross/Riftcinder for Empyreans

To get the afterglow 99 stage: (these numbers are just random)
300 Arch Dynamis Lord Kills (Relic)
200 Pandemonium Warden Kills (Mythic)
??? for Empyrean (500 Riftcinder/Riftdross?)

I think formatting the trials this way would be much better than needing the same item for the 99 stage AND the afterglow stage. Even if they make it that you have to kill a ridiculous amount of ADL or PW for the afterglow stage, at least it will be more feasible. It would also encourage people who finish their 99 stage to help with more ADL and PW kills rather than just bail when they get their items. So that's my two cents.
http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/28051/dev1065-relicmythicempyrean-weapon-upgrades/16/#1737924

With this setup, people who have already obtained items for the 99 trial will not be punished, and those people (if there are any) who were going for the glow trial would be able to reclaim their gil. I would recommend 500 Ig-Alima or Botulus Rex kills for the Empyrean glow trial.

This would ensure a long-lasting and steady supply of the items that people need to upgrade to the NQ level 99 relic weapons.

[Damane]

I think the problem is they are trying to run 2-3 mmos now and they don't have the resources to do it, as such they are making these horrible massive time sink crap that's going to make the playerbase of all their games ragequit.

I put up with this crap in the past with salvage etc but after the fun I had with Abyssea and at this stage of the games life, this crap isn't going to fly. Everything since Abyssea has been crap ontop of more crap ontop of more crap, I'm really angry they are ruining a game I love so much. It's sad that they make horrible decisions and they never listen, never learn and keep pumping out more of it. Legion is going to be such a pile of crap, even if it's fun the drop system will make VW rage seem like a walk in the park. They are just so set in their ideal of punishing us all as players, maybe it's punishment for us all not loving 14 and him getting fired...idk.

The reposnses are madening because it's like talking to someone that refuses to listen to you and just pushes their own ideas, not budging an inch away from them..no matter how much you try to plead with them.

The thing about worrying about people that already started the trials is garbage too, my relic made 4 years ago (that took me 2 years) got no such thoughts when they made them so much easier to get now. The amount of killshots I had to do on it at the begining just before they nerfed them to 1/4 of the amounts had similar attention to the work I put in, they don't care about who started the trial at all.

Nothing against Camate, since he is jsut the messenger but the devs are being frigging stupid and arrogant.

Bolded for truth I am/was in the same boat

[Runespider]

It's also depressing to see how Yoshi and the 'new' XIV team are bending over backwards to try to listen and accommodate players' suggestions and criticisms as they [SE] work on XIV 2.0, while the XI team after a period a year or so back of apparently learning from the years of completely ignoring the XI playerbase and making many changes to XI to make it more 'user friendly' (and reaping much praise for their changed attitude), have now sunk back into their former deaf-to-the-players state.

FFXI had it's "listen to the playerbase" period too, no matter what the current lead of FFXIV is doing that can change in a blink of an eye, just as happened in XI when we got captain balance back. As FFXI players right now we are being punished for being loyal subscribers and being treated like crap, if you play, or plan to play any other SE MMO you better expect the same treatment. They don't value us, they just want to do as little work as possible to keep us paying them. That's what this trial is, we can understand a certain amount of this kind of content but when it's this blatant and obvious it's pretty disrespectful.

[Helel]

This post on FFXIAH has a useful solution that solves all the problems posed:

http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/28051/dev1065-relicmythicempyrean-weapon-upgrades/16/#1737924

With this setup, people who have already obtained items for the 99 trial will not be punished, and those people (if there are any) who were going for the glow trial would be able to reclaim their gil. I would recommend 500 Ig-Alima or Botulus Rex kills for the Empyrean glow trial.

This would ensure a long-lasting and steady supply of the items that people need to upgrade to the NQ level 99 relic weapons.

Unless someone is currently suffering from the largest brain tumor known to man, nobody is going to do the stage 2 trials. I want to say that there isn't a human being out there quite stupid enough to sacrifice so much gil (killing ADL instead of farming currency) to make their weapon glow, but maybe there is; and if there is, we'll all be able to see them glow so we can point and laugh and feel better about ourselves.

[Dragoy]

Disregarding the ridonkulous trials being devised, I find it borderline hilarious that they reason not changing anything in general because some players might have already collected some of the items that will be required for them...

I'm not biting that. >.>;

[Rezeak]

From the Jp forum the planned number is ....
here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19527-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%EF%BC%8F%E3%83%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%EF%BC%8F%E3%82%A8%E3%83%B3%E3%83%94%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%E3%81%AE%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6/page50)
Relic Weapon: 5
Mythic Weapon: 3
Emp Weapon: 60

Still annoying... but least it's not 20 :(

There was something about getting kill but i think they said the same thing that it wouldn't be added cause of pple already collecting items.

Also they said something about if it was kills it would be item X 18 in kill so near 100 kills .... goddamn

Edit : Honestly i feel this is still dumb
Wish they make us work for new gear not existing gear that already required months/years of work :(

[Nervosa]

Does the dev team enjoy building a game just to bring it down?

[Unctgtg]

From the Jp forum the planned number is ....

Relic Weapon: 5
Mythic Weapon: 3
Emp Weapon: 60

Still annoying... but least it's not 20 :(

There was something about getting kill but i think they said the same thing that it wouldn't be added cause of pple already collecting items.

Also they said something about if it was kills it would be item X 18 in kill so near 100 kills .... goddamn

Edit : Honestly i feel this is still dumb
Wish they make us work for new gear not existing gear that already required months/years of work :(

Still not acceptable.

[Insaniac]

Mythics are fine now. You can easily build all the sets in a week with a couple alts or some help and then kill 3 PW in 1 sitting with virtually no chance of failure and most LSs would only have to do this 1-3 times or none at all.

As for relics.... my LS gets to kill ADL 100-150 times to finish everyone's 99 relic? Count me the fuck out. There's too many relics in circulation. They need to realize this. You can't look at this trial as a simple number. There's too many factors that just aren't being accounted for. Keep the item trial but add the drop to mobs that can be killed with 2-6 people and increase the number required to 20-30. Trial fixed and all is right. The order really would be mythic < relic < emp. With those new numbers it's now mythic < emp < relic.

[Unctgtg]

All they have to do is ADD it to regular DL, which can be trioed now a days.

[Mahoro]

Mythics are fine now. You can easily build all the sets in a week with a couple alts or some help and then kill 3 PW in 1 sitting with virtually no chance of failure and most LSs would only have to do this 1-3 times or none at all.

As for relics.... my LS gets to kill ADL 100-150 times to finish everyone's 99 relic? Count me the fuck out. There's too many relics in circulation. They need to realize this. You can't look at this trial as a simple number. There's too many factors that just aren't being accounted for. Keep the item trial but add the drop to mobs that can be killed with 2-6 people and increase the number required to 20-30. Trial fixed and all is right. The order really would be mythic < relic < emp. With those new numbers it's now mythic < emp < relic.

They don't care how many Relics are in circulation, just as they don't care how many Emp 90's are in circulation. (See 1500 HMP trial.) From their actions, they clearly don't want 100% of the Relics finished, only an "acceptable" percentage.

Honestly, 5 ADL items per relic is a lot more reasonable for my LS when you take into account the relicholders, the people who want Arch boss drops, and the people who don't usually enter Dyna who want DKP. Although I still take issue with their statement that a majority of people with appropriate equipment would likely be able to finish these trials. ADL is still not PUG content. Only in a large LS setting with an Arch Boss event rotation would these ever get done...and even then a LS will probably do ADL a few times a month, 36 times a year. They really misled people IMO.

[Frost]

Ok well... It DOES "Technically" fall into the realm of "doable by most groups of 95"...

I still think it's a bit much. It would be acceptable if you could get the Umbral Marrow from any Arch Dynamis Boss.

How about this:

Bastok/Sandy/Windurst Dynamis: Arch Dynamis Stone = 25% Chance at Umbral Marrow.
Valkrum/Bubu/Qufim Dynamis: Arch Marlboro/Dragon/Gigas = 33% Chance at Umbral Marrow.
Beacedine Dynamis: Arch Angra Manyu = 50% Chance at Umbral Marrow.
Xarcabard/Tavnazia Dynamis: Arch Dynamis Lord/Diablos(DSCH) = 100% Chance at Umbral Marrow.

And:
Dynamis Lord/Diablos(nq) = 5% chance.
Angra Manyu = 3% Chance.
Any City "Boss" Stone = 1% Chance

Can you put in that request?

[Vold]

From the Jp forum the planned number is ....
here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19527-%E3%83%AC%E3%83%AA%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%EF%BC%8F%E3%83%9F%E3%82%B7%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%EF%BC%8F%E3%82%A8%E3%83%B3%E3%83%94%E3%83%AA%E3%82%A2%E3%83%B3%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A7%E3%83%9D%E3%83%B3%E3%81%AE%E5%BC%B7%E5%8C%96%E3%81%AB%E3%81%A4%E3%81%84%E3%81%A6/page50)
Relic Weapon: 5
Mythic Weapon: 3
Emp Weapon: 60

Still annoying... but least it's not 20 :(

There was something about getting kill but i think they said the same thing that it wouldn't be added cause of pple already collecting items.

Also they said something about if it was kills it would be item X 18 in kill so near 100 kills .... goddamn

Edit : Honestly i feel this is still dumb
Wish they make us work for new gear not existing gear that already required months/years of work :(

"5 ok?"

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/9673/20969082.jpg

[Insaniac]

Ok well... It DOES "Technically" fall into the realm of "doable by most groups of 95"...

I still think it's a bit much. It would be acceptable if you could get the Umbral Marrow from any Arch Dynamis Boss.

How about this:

Bastok/Sandy/Windurst Dynamis: Arch Dynamis Stone = 25% Chance at Umbral Marrow.
Valkrum/Bubu/Qufim Dynamis: Arch Marlboro/Dragon/Gigas = 33% Chance at Umbral Marrow.
Beacedine Dynamis: Arch Angra Manyu = 50% Chance at Umbral Marrow.
Xarcabard/Tavnazia Dynamis: Arch Dynamis Lord/Diablos(DSCH) = 100% Chance at Umbral Marrow.

And:
Dynamis Lord/Diablos(nq) = 5% chance.
Angra Manyu = 3% Chance.
Any City "Boss" Stone = 1% Chance

Can you put in that request?I know you are probably low balling so this might look more attractive to someone who develops MMOs and hates fun but please don't give them any ideas. At 5 items required all Arch bosses should drop 1, ADL and Arch Diabolos should drop 2-3 and DL/Diabolos/Angra should have a 10% chance of 1, and City Bosses could be left off the list since they are used for trials and we don't want people working on 2 trials at once do we!?!