Animator's and Maneuvers idea

[Annalise]

So I know a lot of discussion has been made in the past to how detrimental using maneuvers is to PUP as far as DoT is concerned. Also, how in zergs using maneuvers cripples the PUP's damage dealing.

There has also been much debate over the animators, and what they actually do besides the hidden effects (+dex, +hp/mp on animator +1 being the only effects found. This is not up for debate here, to the people who have claims of more, as it's a bit off subject.)

So I was thinking, what if the duration of maneuvers was changed by the animator equipped? I don't believe this is a new idea, but I think it's something to look into.

For example:
Animator: 1 Minute Maneuver duration
Turbo Animator: 2 Minute Maneuver duration
Animator +1: 3 Minute Maneuver duration
Deluxe Animator: 4 Minute Maneuver duration (yes, most prefer the +1 for the hp/mp but considering the scaling and rarity, 4 minutes on deluxe would make sense)

This would obviously have an effect on overload and burden (with overload being less of an issue), as higher level PUPs wouldn't have to use maneuvers as often (except for cases like Eraser, Ice Maker, Flame Holder, Heat Capacitator, Barrage Turbine, etc.)

However, higher level PUPs rarely overload with good gear anyways.

Lower level PUPs have a much higher rate of overload than higher level PUPs, and until they get their turbo animator, it would remain unchanged.

It also wouldn't be the first time they increased the duration of something to prevent a needles spamming of it (e.g. velocity shot, 5 minutes -> 2 hours, though 5 minutes prior wasn't really spamming I suppose, it was just not necessary).

So... what do you guys think?

[Spiritreaver]

So I know a lot of discussion has been made in the past to how detrimental using maneuvers is to PUP as far as DoT is concerned. Also, how in zergs using maneuvers cripples the PUP's damage dealing.

There has also been much debate over the animators, and what they actually do besides the hidden effects (+dex, +hp/mp on animator +1 being the only effects found. This is not up for debate here, to the people who have claims of more, as it's a bit off subject.)

So I was thinking, what if the duration of maneuvers was changed by the animator equipped? I don't believe this is a new idea, but I think it's something to look into.

For example:
Animator: 1 Minute Maneuver duration
Turbo Animator: 2 Minute Maneuver duration
Animator +1: 3 Minute Maneuver duration
Deluxe Animator: 4 Minute Maneuver duration (yes, most prefer the +1 for the hp/mp but considering the scaling and rarity, 4 minutes on deluxe would make sense)

This would obviously have an effect on overload and burden (with overload being less of an issue), as higher level PUPs wouldn't have to use maneuvers as often (except for cases like Eraser, Ice Maker, Flame Holder, Heat Capacitator, Barrage Turbine, etc.)

However, higher level PUPs rarely overload with good gear anyways.

Lower level PUPs have a much higher rate of overload than higher level PUPs, and until they get their turbo animator, it would remain unchanged.

It also wouldn't be the first time they increased the duration of something to prevent a needles spamming of it (e.g. velocity shot, 5 minutes -> 2 hours, though 5 minutes prior wasn't really spamming I suppose, it was just not necessary).

So... what do you guys think?

Two personal feelings i have on this subject first:

1) I have long held that delay from using manuvers as this huge detriment to PUP DoT has been overblown. This is one of the few instances where i think SE got the 'benefit/balance' thing pretty much right. Am i against manuvers having longer durations? Hell no. That would be a very welcome boost imo. But i also think that relegating manuvers to an afterthought as one focuses mostly on the Master isn't the way to go either-this is done on every other non-pet DD already.

and

2) Not every job is good at zerging and personally i think that is ok. Not gonna whip out the old 'MH > moogle > job change' bs, because its a bs argument most of the time. But i will say in a game where job changing is not penalized and is indeed encouraged, sometimes trying to fit the square peg into the round hole is just not the best way to go.


All that hot air being let out, i think your idea has some merit.

Actually giving the animators a tangible secondary function is long over due. Boosting manuver duration would be a nice way of accomplishing that.I would adjust your example a bit though.


Animator: 12 Minute Maneuver duration
Turbo Animator: 23 Minute Maneuver duration
Animator +1: 34 Minute Maneuver duration
Deluxe Animator: 4 Minute Maneuver duration


Upping the manuver duration boost from Animator and Turbo Animator to 2 and 3 min respectively seems more in line to how SE has elongated other JAs for other jobs imo. And making the boost 4 min for both the +1 and Deluxe animators just seems right to me-as both these versions aren't gimmes in any way atm. +1 comes from an event no one does anymore and currently you'd be hardpressed to find group that would spam the lower tier VW fight that drops the Deluxe.

As to Overload. i don't think it would be an issue with the changes you propose. At lower lvls overloading can be a problem if you don't get into a good rhythm with manuver use. But ppl either learn quickly how to avoid it or they don't. And in my experience, those who don't never take PUP that far in any event so the issus is moot.

Even the very worst PUP i've seen out and about don't overload that much.

Anyways that's my 2 cents since you asked.

[Tetsujin]

Not contributing much but if I had to offer my opinion on the duration distribution for balance:

Animator: 1:00: Better for getting players used to overloads and the importance of maneuvers
Turbo: 1:30: Turbo Animator is relatively easy to get. Any PUP worth their salt has one.
+1: 2 to 2:30: Even two minutes is an astoundingly long time for maneuvers. It would extremely generous for the devs to give us anything more than that.
Deluxe: 2:30 to 3: Can't say I've done voidwatch but it needs to at least be an improvement over the +1.

(again, just the 2 minutes bonus would be an incredible gesture, even if each incremental animator would be +20 seconds.)

[Kristal]

An animator feature that could also be interesting: automatic reapplication of maneuvers, as long as the maneuver would not risk overload. This would allow us to set something like Fire-Wind-Thunder and switch to some different stat ammo SE keeps throwing at us. Some attachments would require an animator equiped still, so it doesn't become overpowered. (Mostly those with an one-shot effect, such as Mana Converter or Eraser.)

[Annalise]

1) I have long held that delay from using manuvers as this huge detriment to PUP DoT has been overblown. This is one of the few instances where i think SE got the 'benefit/balance' thing pretty much right. Am i against manuvers having longer durations? Hell no. That would be a very welcome boost imo. But i also think that relegating manuvers to an afterthought as one focuses mostly on the Master isn't the way to go either-this is done on every other non-pet DD already.

and

2) Not every job is good at zerging and personally i think that is ok. Not gonna whip out the old 'MH > moogle > job change' bs, because its a bs argument most of the time. But i will say in a game where job changing is not penalized and is indeed encouraged, sometimes trying to fit the square peg into the round hole is just not the best way to go.


I'm really just about where you are in relation to the maneuvers, I just used it because I know that it's a common complaint. I've definitely noticed it slows my melee down a bit but it's not too big a deal to me. My main interest is just because they are so damn short, it's annoying to have to constantly keep reapplying them.

Yeah, the times could definitely be tinkered with.

And I don't think overload is an issue anymore either. If the maneuvers were really long, then we really wouldn't overload though... Overload is a bit of an unnecessary concept to begin with... but that would likely be their reason against implementing it.

[Tetsujin]

about overload being an unnecessary concept:
I like where SE came from with the idea - The idea of exchanging power with risk.
Only, now that overload isn't as much of a big deal, it's becoming a little apparent that some triple maneuver situations aren't all that great. For the risk imposed, 3 maneuvers should be A. hard to pull off and B. slightly overpowered.

This is probably why they decided to revamp so many attachments. Triple Wind works great with the Haste/Drum Magazine - Triple Light will proc a cure every 4 seconds with Damage Gauge.

These attachments are available as early as level 1, but players don't get to reap the benefits of tripling up until they get access to gear like the AF hands etc. Just my thoughts on Overload in general.