[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Francisco]

Details can be found here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17179-dev1047-New-Battle-System-Legion

The event itself, fundamentally sounds good, exciting, interesting, with a lot of possibility.

However, there is one huge, glaring issue I have with it - and I'm sure this applies to at least 80% of the player base.

The event seems based around alliances of 18-36. The problem is, groups that size really no longer exist in FFXI. There may be a few, here and there, but largely things are done in this game with groups of 4-8 now.

Many need to settle for 2-4.

If the Dev. Team is trying to bring back larger linkshells, two things really need to be considered.

1: There is no quick route to that, it would have to be done gradually.

2: This simply cannot be the priority at the moment, and what needs to be focused on is the current state of the player base. You have mostly smaller groups, duos, trios, maybe things typically max out at a party of 12 - and again, that's pushing the upper limit for what's common - and amongst those players you have a lot of bored, discontented, pessimistic players who might very well leave.

Basically, at this point of FFXI, I would be shocked if I ever found myself in an alliance of more than two full parties... I cannot even fathom 36.

Fellow players, am I alone on this? I feel like I speak for the majority, but I'd like some confirmation.

My feedback on this is, this content should be focused on groups of ~6, with the ability to throw ~36 at it if so you choose... ~36 or even ~18 should not be essentially required to have success in this even, because those numbers really are no longer representative of this player base.

- Larger groups may allow for more kills. More kills should only affect the QUANTITY of rewards, not the QUALITY.

- Progression of NMs should either be by choice or by randomness. Certain items should never be "impossible" for a group of 6, because they're always from the last NM (assuming it would take 18+ to clear the zone).

Questions for the Dev or Community Team:

The news post says a minimum of 3 can enter "Legion". Will this be designed so that a balanced group of three can manage to enjoy and benefit from this content?

To clarify, is Legion the same event as "The Last Stand"?

Thank you!

[RAIST]

minimum 3 required to enter....I would hazard a guess that it scales somehow according to party size.

[Alhanelem]

Umm.. what is this "Legion" thing you speak of? I can find no official mention of this.

[Greatguardian]

I'm actually extremely excited for Legion. After the appalling disappointment that consisted of the Relic/Mythic/Emp trials and the proposed adjustments to Nyzul Isle, Legion looks like a shining ray of hope.

Einherjar style short-but-intense battle system against multiple foes, accommodating large group play, and drop+point hybrid loot system? Depending on the specifics of the execution, this could be the single best Endgame event released since ToAU.

I'm surprised Legion isn't getting more publicity. It's exactly what the focus needs to be on right now.

I apologize, because I know many people here already complain about Nyzul Isle being too restrictive because finding 2 other people is "hard", but myself and many, many others have been positively starved for a large-scale battle event for a very long time now. I love being able to go out and play with a large group of people whose company I enjoy. I love linkshell-based play, and I'm ecstatic that my shell will have something to do once again.

Einherjar 2.0? I'll take it. Instead of advertising the abysmal decision making behind neo-Nyzul and Relic/Mythic/Emps, SE really ought to be plastering Legion on the front pages.

Lowmanners? Don't worry. It's not like NineInchNinjas or similar shells were unable to compete just because they were lowman. The whole concept behind lowmanning is substituting superior skill over superior numbers. Top tier players will still be able to lowman fine, plus it'll actually mean something.

[Alhanelem]

I'm surprised Legion isn't getting more publicity. It's exactly what the focus needs to be on right now.Again, where are you getting this "Legion" information from? No mention of it in the timeline, no mention of it anywhere I can see on these forums, no mention on the official website.

It's not getting any publicity because nobody knows about it.

Please provide a link to whatever official details exist.

[Zumi]

If there is going to be a 36 man event the UI needs to be redone to accommodate 36 people. Obviously i would have to pug a lot of people by shouting in jeuno.

As a leader I should be able to shout for memebers invite all of them then move them around and place them in parties I want and see this all in my in my UI as well as their job. I know that there is going to be a redone UI. Added UI features for forming groups must be done if 36 man content is going to be the norm again.

[Francisco]

Umm.. what is this "Legion" thing you speak of? I can find no official mention of this.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17179-dev1047-New-Battle-System-Legion

Edit: (They posted a blank topic for - I think - "The Last Stand" in November, and just edited the info in today or yesterday... this is why no one has noticed it)



I'm surprised Legion isn't getting more publicity. It's exactly what the focus needs to be on right now.

I think the lack of publicity for it is because it wasn't posted freshly with all the new information on it.... a blank post was made in November, and updated today or yesterday... so it didn't show up in the Dev Tracker.

I would personally request in the future, the Devs/Community Team not add major news in this way... most people use the Dev Tracker for their news, and if you just edit information in, it goes completely under the radar.)


Lowmanners? Don't worry. It's not like NineInchNinjas or similar shells were unable to compete just because they were lowman. The whole concept behind lowmanning is substituting superior skill over superior numbers. Top tier players will still be able to lowman fine, plus it'll actually mean something.I certainly hope it works out this way, in some manner. My concern is, while low-man groups are a viable strategy, they lack the firepower of a full alliance, and will complete less objectives than an 18 person alliance.

My thoughts on this... basically...

18 people kill 5 NMs... they get a large amount of rewards...

6 people kill 2 NMs... they get the same quality of rewards as the first alliance, but a lower quantity.

Balances out, because a larger alliance would have more demand for these items... party isn't really punished for having a smaller group...

If "bosses" with superior loot are added, which essentially require clearing a zone, there should be a way a smaller group can attempt these as well... I really don't see a group of 3-6 clearing an area designed for 18-36... no matter how good they are... they'll survive, but won't have the damage to make up for the other 15-33 slots they're not using.

[Francisco]

Edited OP to include a link to the notes about "Legion"

[Alhanelem]

Edit: (They posted a blank topic for - I think - "The Last Stand" in November, and just edited the info in today or yesterday... this is why no one has noticed it)I figured as much then- There is nothing in the dev tracker about this.

[Tile]

I hope it scales. That way you can do it with your close Buddies and still make progress, but if you go in with full 36 you'll just kill more for more stuff, and more points. so both groups will get rare stuff, just big group would get more of it.

[Alhanelem]

I'm hoping, from what I"m reading, that more hardcore groups will be able to do well with just the minimum 3-6 people, but ordinary people will be able to do it with more. I also don't like the idea of another new event with a huge gil sink price to replace the no-longer-gilsink Dynamis.

It seems like they want to bring back large linkshells but I really don't see that happening. The playerbase is smaller, the long time players do not have as much time on their hands as they used to, and... yeah.

[Vold]

It's not so much a population issue as it is the types of people that are playing, or maybe it's just what FFXI itself has done to us over the years. People are welcoming content that embraces smaller groups. They got tired of the 18+ man LSs and farming for years for little rewards in comparison to the amount of work they put into it. There's a good reason large groups of players can still exist in other MMOs despite small populations of players. It's a reason FFXI doesn't have and that's rewards that are always delivered. Not necessarily silver platter stuff like Abyssea, but something that is vastly superior to SE's ideals of low drop rates and time sinks. Sometimes they do like those other games but it's too few and far between. AV for example is one of those exceptions but because the fricking thing was such murder no one ever killed it for years to reap the rewards of it's drop rates.

If they drop the ideals they have and be more forgiving, people would be more willing to group up and take care of business because it's more fun. If they insist on their way for ever and ever then we will always do whatever we can to ensure we take monsters out with as few as possible for as little competition for drops as possible when they do drop. I want to see 18 man content. FFXI can easily support it. But I think we as a playerbase are done with the 2003-09 way of things. We're done with people running off with KCs and LS banks and ninja lots and all that crap. Time is better spent watching paint dry than spend another second in SE's dream world where everyone plays for 30 years trying to get virtual crap with sub par drop rates all the while paying them to let us do it. It does nothing but promote people screwing each other over. It's not a total failure of a system because the game has survived for nine years but I can't help but wonder how many hundreds of thousands more might still be playing today had they been properly rewarded instead of being shrugged off as weak and unworthy of FFXI.

[Sparthos]

If this event has procs, a decent loot spread, doesn't lock you out for days on end and doesn't rely on endless temp item spam then it stands a good chance to be very popular.

18man groups can be built via shout easily but 36man? Yeah, no.

[Alhanelem]

If this event has procsIf it doesn't have procs, you mean. Nobody wants procs. This event is all about bashing as much shiat in as you can. Who would waste time proccing? You get more points and more loot the more stuff you kill. A proc system would slow that down.

Seriously. No procs please. We have enough "proc events."

BTW, legion on test server is b0rked and the hands of darkness prevent you from entering.

As far as how it's going to play out, judging by the minimum required, killing stuff won't be insurmountable with a small group, but since more kills = better stuff, you'll want as many people as possible to get the best rewards.

BTW, one of the weird things about this event is it's a "model area" like the ballista and brenner zones are, and it was created by the same mage Abjdalis that created those other places. Kind of strange...

[saevel]

You guys aren't thinking clearly about the size vs rewards scaling.

You better hope and pray it doesn't dilute your rewards if your a bigger group, otherwise then it'll become the same as XP / Merits during the 75 era. People will only choose specific jobs to maximize damage potential and thus kill speed for whatever optimal group size is determined and you'll have the same people crying all over again. Look at abyssea, once people figured out the optimal group sizes they then became ultra paranoid about bringing anyone else because every additional person is someone you must share your loot with.

Honestly, as much as your stamping and screaming, this is just a re-invention of LS end-game content. They have lowman content in abyssea, they have PUG content via voidwatch, this is just their recreation of big LS content.

[Alhanelem]

You better hope and pray it doesn't dilute your rewards if your a bigger groupThe way it's described, it sounds like it's specifically made so that more people = better, likely intending to break the trend that every piece of content is done with the fewest people that can possible win it.

[Zaknafein]

Very happy to see LS sized content back. As far as there being no shells left who can field enough members to do 18-36 man content speak for yourself. I know of at least 4 off the top of my head on my server (Bahamut) and that is just the NA shells. I'm sure there are a few JP shells capable of this sort of content also. Btw it usually helps if you don't generalize what the "playerbase" currently is. Best to stick to speaking of your own server that you have direct knowledge of.

There has been nothing but low man friendly events introduced since the level cap went up from 75. SE is even apparently including a low man aspect into Legion to some extent. Honestly anyone whining about this being tailored for large groups just sounds ridiculous.

[brayen]

Wish they could give more details. Biggest concern is the size of the event. i am betting 3 could kill something/ get something done...but with the possibility of taking up to two alliances, i am betting it will be a HUGE gil sink for the time invested to actually go with a group of friends <3-6> forcing you to go with a huge pick up of rejects/uninformed players just to hope to grab something of value<even if it is just the tokens/points> All in all i hope they reconsider this point as anything over 6 people has always been a mess and/or a large consumption of time just to get the players gathered<see VW shouts taking an hr to fill up if not more>

[darkhorror]

This looks like a great event from the info. it's a short event, can bring lots of players, and fight a bunch of HNM's. I can't wait to try this out when it starts up. It's been a long time since we have had an event that requires more than 18, finally our LS will have an event where people won't have to sit out.

[Zyla420]

one thing i think is going to be an issue is the entry fee. i think it should operate more like limbus, where everyone pays a small fee for entrance. otherwise i can see the whole "I paid the entrance fee, all the drops go to me, you just get points" argument comin up. it'll be dynamis all over again.

[Coldbrand]

What the Hell are you talking about? All I do everyday is Voidwatch with, get this: 18 people.

[CrAZYVIC]

SE is trying reborn the "End game"

How handle this kind the stuff?

Just dont fucking Panic when SE say "Neeed massive amount of people"

A competent group in my opinion will be cleaning the first tiers without problems. Only the last tiers will need massive amount of people.

Im sure 4 strongs DDS, whm, Cor, Brd, 1 sleeper and Perfect defense will be owning here.
For normal Mobs keep your DDS buffeds and sleep the adds
For the Mega boss Perfect Defense, bard 2 hour and zerg it down, if a rdm is present Chainspell stun while the zerg.


If your have a Small Linkshell 6 - 10 "skilled" players you will be rocking here!
So dont panic, only is necesary know how handle einherjar/Dynamis STuff.

I hate say this but "Low man groups are 6 - 9 people". Some people want MONK + WHM duo 90% the stuff or say Ohhh noezzz not iss casual, if u want duo/trio 95% the game Go play a RPG Offline.


The Good

Will bring challenge and place for use the full potential of jobs lv 99.

The BAD

DRG, MONK, THF, NIN, PUP, BLU, BST Will be discrimed again here -_-.

The horrible&stupid mentality of SAM ONRY and "maybe" WAR&DRK if you have a empyreal will return :_:.

People want Duo everything probably will quit after of see is necesary as minimiun 8 ppl, great players will be lossed here just because they refuse play with more than 3 people.


Talking about progression ration and drop system.

Tamoa gave a idea some months ago.
The idea She/He gave was awesome in my opinion.
Lets say i receive 2000 points per win.

The luxury armor i need cost 100k points. I know already how many time i need grind this new system for obtain my armor, no more "Random Coffer rewards" that sux.

If the full set the armor i want cost

75k Head
100k Body
75K hands
75k Legs
75k feet
50k per ring
50k earring

I know after some months playing this event im gona Pimp my character and then the "Grind feels worth"

"I hope the DEVS reconsider and dont implement the VW/WoE drop system or that will ruin the progression ratio and will be a fail like VW"

[Alhanelem]

The price should be paid per person, instead of one person having to foot the 360k gil price. Make it 10-12k a person with each person paying, instead. Since you get more stuff with more people, it makes more sense not to have to pay the full price with fewer.


A competent group in my opinion will be cleaning the first tiers without problems. Only the last tiers will need massive amount of people.It doesn't have tiers. It just has three different battlefields.

[CrAZYVIC]

The price should be paid per person, instead of one person having to foot the 360k gil price. Make it 10-12k a person with each person paying, instead. Since you get more stuff with more people, it makes more sense not to have to pay the full price with fewer.

Yeah i missed this point too. I hope they reduce the cost or pay 15 - 20k per person. 360k is a lot of money probably the small linkshells will be playing this event 2 times per week max. In my case im not worry. You my galkan friend will be paying my 360k everytime i want play <3 ^_^ j/k

[Aarahs]

Is there something stopping you from trading gil to the person paying the cost? Did I miss a change to one of the core features of the game?

[Alhanelem]

Is there something stopping you from trading gil to the person paying the cost? Did I miss a change to one of the core features of the game?

Right, because people really want to waste 5-10 minutes of their time doing this. I HATED linkshells that worked this way for Dynamis. But the real point of this is the cost should be based on the number of people that enter, not a fixed cost no matter how many or few.

It is much quicker and simpler for each person to pay their own way than to have somebody collect money from everyone.

[Zaknafein]

If the 360k key item is reserving the zone/instanced battlefield like Einherjar you would buy it then pass it out like lamps.

[Alhanelem]

If the 360k key item is reserving the zone/instanced battlefield like Einherjar you would buy it then pass it out like lamps.
That part is simpler at least. There is just one item, or two if you have two alliances. It doesn't need to be passed around to everybody.

[Sparthos]

If it doesn't have procs, you mean. Nobody wants procs. This event is all about bashing as much shiat in as you can. Who would waste time proccing? You get more points and more loot the more stuff you kill. A proc system would slow that down.

Seriously. No procs please. We have enough "proc events."

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

"LFM SAM SAM SAM WAR WAR WAR WAR MNK MNK only"

Like it or not, procs are good for XI when used only as a way of stunning the enemy. I don't care for the temp item dumps or crucial procs that make or break fights/loot spread but to say that procs are bad in a large scale event is silly when XI is swimming in jobs that just cant catch a break at endgame.

The event can be tough and still have a way of encouraging job variety.

[Zaknafein]

That part is simpler at least. There is just one item, or two if you have two alliances. It doesn't need to be passed around to everybody.

Excellent.

[Arcon]

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

"LFM SAM SAM SAM WAR WAR WAR WAR MNK MNK only"

Yes, so now you're still forced to play whichever job is needed to get as many as possible, only that they're no use at all except for procing. Forced diversity is as annoying as preferred monotony. Personally I'd argue it's worse now than it was before, because having more different jobs will increase your actual chance at loot, whereas before it just took longer if you got a DRK DD over a SAM DD (and not too much longer either). At 75, most content was done by most setups. That wouldn't stop shouting people from shouting for the best, of course, because they never know who they will wind up with if they shout for people. So you shout for the job that's better on average, so even if you wind up with a shitty SAM, he'll do good enough damage.

Procs are annoying.

[Alhanelem]

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:Procs don't change that. When some otehr job is needed for a proc, they run in, do their proc, and run out. I don't know which planet you live on, but if a PUP or SMN or <insert other lesser used job here> comes to voidwatch, I can assure you, proccing is about all they contribute to the fight.

Even with the proc system, people only field the best jobs. It really didn't change as much as you think it does.

Abysea: WAR/NIN can do basically all weapon procs. Magic: BRDs are not lesser used, WHMs are not lesser used. BLMs are not used for everything but do still get their share of playtime. Nothing has really changed here.

Voidwatch: The top tier jobs are used primarily. A handful of other jobs are brought in to get more procs, but some jobs still get left out and many of the jobs that don't are there only to activate proc and not contribtue to the fight in any other meaningful way.

Dynamis: Best example of paring down top tier job use, but most people just target the monsters that they can proc with what they have and avoid proccing the ones they can't whenever possible.

The proc system has NOT had a lot of impact on job diversity, and I will be glad to see new events not have it. It is an annoying hassle whose only true purpose is to slow down fights.

[Greatguardian]

An event like this without procs is going to truly return the game to level 75 tactics of fielding only the jobs best in their specialty and that would be a complete joke. If the base is too naive to realize this then they can enjoy the shouts of:

"LFM SAM SAM SAM WAR WAR WAR WAR MNK MNK only"

Like it or not, procs are good for XI when used only as a way of stunning the enemy. I don't care for the temp item dumps or crucial procs that make or break fights/loot spread but to say that procs are bad in a large scale event is silly when XI is swimming in jobs that just cant catch a break at endgame.

The event can be tough and still have a way of encouraging job variety.

Why would someone shout for Legion? It's pretty clearly a large linkshell based event, which means people who are already members are going to be going even if they don't have MNK/WAR.

If the belief of many posters around here is to be held true, then many linkshells will need to begin recruitment drives in order to hit the 1-2 alliance quota anyways so it's not like they'll be stingy enough to only accept Mnk/War applications.

Personally, I have a shell that can still easily field 18+ extremely competent players at an event assuming people actually have something to do and a motivation to do it. I know of at least a half dozen other shells on my server that can do the same.

[Taint2]

Why would someone shout for Legion? It's pretty clearly a large linkshell based event, which means people who are already members are going to be going even if they don't have MNK/WAR.

If the belief of many posters around here is to be held true, then many linkshells will need to begin recruitment drives in order to hit the 1-2 alliance quota anyways so it's not like they'll be stingy enough to only accept Mnk/War applications.

Personally, I have a shell that can still easily field 18+ extremely competent players at an event assuming people actually have something to do and a motivation to do it. I know of at least a half dozen other shells on my server that can do the same.


Same reason VW is shout groups for the most part.

I prefer the shout group style over a large shell. There are always numerous VW shouts in Jeuno, you can pick one that fits your needs. It also allows you to ignore the shouts and do whatever else you wanted to do. LSs have events and scheduled times which is a big difference.

I'll be leading shout alliances for this, hope you join some :)

[Sparthos]

Yes, so now you're still forced to play whichever job is needed to get as many as possible, only that they're no use at all except for procing. Forced diversity is as annoying as preferred monotony. Personally I'd argue it's worse now than it was before, because having more different jobs will increase your actual chance at loot, whereas before it just took longer if you got a DRK DD over a SAM DD (and not too much longer either). At 75, most content was done by most setups. That wouldn't stop shouting people from shouting for the best, of course, because they never know who they will wind up with if they shout for people. So you shout for the job that's better on average, so even if you wind up with a shitty SAM, he'll do good enough damage.

Procs are annoying.

Except people work in absolutes in this XI and unless you happen to have a reason (like procs or some battlefield mechanic) to field a PUP, THF, DRK or whatever, those classes are always being told to sit back for more SAM, MNK, WAR action. Good if you're in the latter and bad if you're someone who mains the former.

Some people like to dodge that fact by playing the old 'you can change classes' card and thats fine, if you like being on the same handful of classes repeatedly.

I don't see how procs are annoying as they encourage players to do something other than spam the strongest abilities they have and adds some depth to a fight. Proc stunned a powerful TP move? Awesome. Proc lowers the defenses of a mob temporarily? Awesome. Sure, it may be forced diversity but it's better than the alternative and it's only a matter of time before the alternative takes root again. The ideal Legion would make procs useful but not crucial meaning less organized groups can enjoy variety with a bonus while skilled groups can run with min/max builds if they so choose.


Procs don't change that. When some otehr job is needed for a proc, they run in, do their proc, and run out. I don't know which planet you live on, but if a PUP or SMN or <insert other lesser used job here> comes to voidwatch, I can assure you, proccing is about all they contribute to the fight.

Dunno about you but even when I'm on PUP at Voidwatch im doing damage, utilizing my automaton for nukes and hitting procs when they come up. Procs get my foot in the door and allow me to occupy a slot, something old content bars you from when everyone is 'best DD jobs onry' mode for everything.

All I did before my break was PUG Voidwatch and many of the runs have far greater job variety than what existed at 75 endgame. People weren't bitching when I'd field my BLU, PUP, RNG or any of my other 'less than ideal' classes and I have procs to thank for that. I don't care for the regimented Abyssea-style procs but the opposite extreme of zero procs invites lvl75 methods once again.


Why would someone shout for Legion? It's pretty clearly a large linkshell based event, which means people who are already members are going to be going even if they don't have MNK/WAR.

If the belief of many posters around here is to be held true, then many linkshells will need to begin recruitment drives in order to hit the 1-2 alliance quota anyways so it's not like they'll be stingy enough to only accept Mnk/War applications.

We're still in speculation but if the content only requires 18 people (and isnt overly strategic) to reasonably win then this event is going to be popular in shout circles because the game will only have one true 'large-scale' event worth running. I mean it could really go either way at this point but even within the grounds of an endgame LS you have job tiering and shunning of certain classes if they aren't the ideal or have a reason to bring them.

I'd use the PUP example but I feel that RNG is a much better example of a class that at 75 got shunned even though it could do mid-tier damage. Was RNG bad? Compared to the top-tier classes haste stacked perhaps but it wasn't terrible. It didn't matter however because once people got in their heads that haste-stacking and zergs were all that mattered the job cratered in popularity and usefulness. Are people really that hungry for zerg fantasy XI again? The only reason we can zerg VWNM is fanatics drinks anyway.

Voidwatch gave RNG the ability to participate and hit a boatload of potential unique procs but the second things go back to throwing only the best DD the class will be back in the 'aw, its not a SAM' tier.

[Arcon]

I don't get why you consider the trade-off of fun for variety a win. Disregarding the fact that it's still forced, although maybe to a lesser extent, what do those jobs do? If someone wants to play a job, say PUP, do they actually want to play it, or spam all of their abilities? I don't even consider that "playing" anymore. And I can't see how it's better than the other way around.

As usual though, the problem is and remains only with pick up groups or asocial "strictly business" LS. If you play with friends (or any kind of random social LS) instead of people who just wanna go for the maximum number of drops per minute, you shouldn't have many problems being on the job you want. At 75 you could come as any job to any event if the people you were playing with weren't being dicks about it, it's the same now and it'll be this way for any event in the future.

[Sparthos]

So you don't consider the ability to show up on a less ideal job (especially if you only have said classes) more ideal an endgame than the old regimented system where you had only roughly half the classes in participation for most of endgame? For some people using ideal classes, rushing down content and claiming as much loot as possible is fun and for those people a system of light proccing does nothing for them but speed up the process.

You hit some procs? Good. You don't? Who cares, you're probably skilled enough to only hit those that happen to match your ideal setup or ignore them altogether.

For others, job variety and the experience is fun. The problem is you don't get job variety amongst the mainstream PUG base (most of FFXI these days) unless SE goes out of the way to make it ideal to do so. Doesn't have to be overkill like Abyssea or Voidwatch but anything that can possibly make a battle easier will most certainly lead to people taking certain jobs into consideration that would be normally seen as mediocre or worthless.

This is good because it makes the game more inclusive.

Dunno about the status of other servers but since Abyssea and the march towards small-scale content, most HNMLS on Lakshmi are remnants of their former selves and exist pretty much to chat, pass time and get some people you know to join PUG runs to fill in the cracks. Maybe on some other servers people are still rolling 40+ man shells rearing to smash Dynamis or something but the game is largely PUGs, solo/multi-box and the rare LS runs now.

[Ravenmore]

I wouldn't mind large scale LS events as much if SE gave us more LS tools. I would join a pug for this. Not much reason not to. Starting one might be less attractive but its only 360k , people are spending more then that on VWNM right now with pugs. If you can go everyday or as many times you want I could see this becoming a pug event.

[Arcon]

This is good because it makes the game more inclusive.

Again, why is forced inclusion good? It's basically the same thing. Only instead of requiring x SAM and y WAR, it requires one of each. It's still forced.

"Can I come PUP?"
"We already have a PUP, we need a COR."
"I don't have COR."
"Get lost."

As I said, I know it's not quite that bad, since with many people having lots of jobs leveled it's easier to get what you need with less compromising, but it still shows everywhere. Will they ever let you come on your non-Ukon WAR when there's already a Ukon WAR available? And if you're a Ukon WAR, do you think they'll want you to come on BLU instead?

As I said, it only really depends on who you play with. Inclusion isn't always good. And "not inclusion" doesn't equal "exclusion", because while jobs don't have to be present in Einherjar, they can. A PUP isn't required, but it won't hurt anyone either. The balance between inclusion and exclusion is freedom. And that shouldn't be limited by gameplay, like it is with a proc system. Prior to that it was only limited by the community. If you're playing with jerks, you get treated badly. If you're playing with friends, you get treated nicely. Personally I don't see a problem with that at all.


Dunno about the status of other servers but since Abyssea and the march towards small-scale content, most HNMLS on Lakshmi are remnants of their former selves and exist pretty much to chat, pass time and get some people you know to join PUG runs to fill in the cracks. Maybe on some other servers people are still rolling 40+ man shells rearing to smash Dynamis or something but the game is largely PUGs, solo/multi-box and the rare LS runs now.

The reason LS events don't happen as much is not because the community changed (possibly it contributed a little, but I don't see it being much), but mostly because the game changed. The only thing that was different was that lowmanning got easier. That's the only reason why people started doing it. That's the reason why old LS broke or thinned out, because why should you kill an NM 10 times with 18 people, when you can kill it almost exactly as fast with three people and not share all the drops?

And this is now speculation on my part, but I'm pretty sure that when LS content is being offered again, it will also be done as such again. This event may be the evidence for that, we'll see.

Also, again our experiences seem to differ gravely, but pretty much everyone I know wants LS content back. We started doing many events as a LS recently again, mostly just for fun, because that's what it is, compared to just grinding hordes of mobs with small groups or do repetitive fights with people you don't know in VW pick up groups. I don't know anyone who likes that, and many people will appreciate something like this again.

[saevel]

Except people work in absolutes in this XI and unless you happen to have a reason (like procs or some battlefield mechanic) to field a PUP, THF, DRK or whatever, those classes are always being told to sit back for more SAM, MNK, WAR action. Good if you're in the latter and bad if you're someone who mains the former.

Some people like to dodge that fact by playing the old 'you can change classes' card and thats fine, if you like being on the same handful of classes repeatedly.

I don't see how procs are annoying as they encourage players to do something other than spam the strongest abilities they have and adds some depth to a fight. Proc stunned a powerful TP move? Awesome. Proc lowers the defenses of a mob temporarily? Awesome. Sure, it may be forced diversity but it's better than the alternative and it's only a matter of time before the alternative takes root again. The ideal Legion would make procs useful but not crucial meaning less organized groups can enjoy variety with a bonus while skilled groups can run with min/max builds if they so choose.



Dunno about you but even when I'm on PUP at Voidwatch im doing damage, utilizing my automaton for nukes and hitting procs when they come up. Procs get my foot in the door and allow me to occupy a slot, something old content bars you from when everyone is 'best DD jobs onry' mode for everything.

All I did before my break was PUG Voidwatch and many of the runs have far greater job variety than what existed at 75 endgame. People weren't bitching when I'd field my BLU, PUP, RNG or any of my other 'less than ideal' classes and I have procs to thank for that. I don't care for the regimented Abyssea-style procs but the opposite extreme of zero procs invites lvl75 methods once again.



We're still in speculation but if the content only requires 18 people (and isnt overly strategic) to reasonably win then this event is going to be popular in shout circles because the game will only have one true 'large-scale' event worth running. I mean it could really go either way at this point but even within the grounds of an endgame LS you have job tiering and shunning of certain classes if they aren't the ideal or have a reason to bring them.

I'd use the PUP example but I feel that RNG is a much better example of a class that at 75 got shunned even though it could do mid-tier damage. Was RNG bad? Compared to the top-tier classes haste stacked perhaps but it wasn't terrible. It didn't matter however because once people got in their heads that haste-stacking and zergs were all that mattered the job cratered in popularity and usefulness. Are people really that hungry for zerg fantasy XI again? The only reason we can zerg VWNM is fanatics drinks anyway.

Voidwatch gave RNG the ability to participate and hit a boatload of potential unique procs but the second things go back to throwing only the best DD the class will be back in the 'aw, its not a SAM' tier.



I know you don't like big LS's and such, but I'm not sure what game you've been playing. We've never ~ever~ told a DRG, DRK, RNG, or ~insert any job here~ to stand "in the back" while SAM and WAR goes to town. They'll field as many DD's as they have, and considering how many players have left shells in the last year+ I doubt they'll be picky about who they bring. The order will simply be "come on your best geared melee job" and that's it. Only absolute twats would tell someone to change off their better geared DRG / DRK / ect. to their lower geared SAM / WAR.

[saevel]

I wouldn't mind large scale LS events as much if SE gave us more LS tools. I would join a pug for this. Not much reason not to. Starting one might be less attractive but its only 360k , people are spending more then that on VWNM right now with pugs. If you can go everyday or as many times you want I could see this becoming a pug event.

The loot drops into a centralized treasure pool, meaning you'll be lotting against everyone else who might one day ~think~ they need your drop. At least with a shell doing it there is some form of loot control. 360K/18 = 20K each, that's ridiculously cheap. 10K if you can somehow get a full 36 man group going on. So while its possible to PUG it, endgame LS's are the ones who are going to cleaning house the most with this event.

[Ravenmore]

The loot drops into a centralized treasure pool, meaning you'll be lotting against everyone else who might one day ~think~ they need your drop. At least with a shell doing it there is some form of loot control. 360K/18 = 20K each, that's ridiculously cheap. 10K if you can somehow get a full 36 man group going on. So while its possible to PUG it, endgame LS's are the ones who are going to cleaning house the most with this event.

Whats so differant then pick +2 mobs that people shout for for the emp.weapon items. The person buying the KI will most likely lock the item they want while even one else gets to join in on a free shot at it and not to mention everyone gets points for going. The only thing that would really stop this from being puged wide spread is if you can only go 2 times a week. If not and if the point items are decent to good then why would you wait around for your LS that might have VWNM and other events to do.

[saevel]

Whats so differant then pick +2 mobs that people shout for for the emp.weapon items. The person buying the KI will most likely lock the item they want while even one else gets to join in on a free shot at it and not to mention everyone gets points for going. The only thing that would really stop this from being puged wide spread is if you can only go 2 times a week. If not and if the point items are decent to good then why would you wait around for your LS that might have VWNM and other events to do.


Umm because the person "buying" the +2 is there for one thing only and plans to spam them. In this case you have a ton of NMs and loot droping and knowing SE their gonna make the good stuff rare and only off a later NM. Meaning whomever is "buying" is going to lock the good item that everyone else wants. And if not, then your lotting against at least 16 others for your body. Just imagine VWNM where ~one~ body can possibly drop to the alliance loot pool, the amount of douche baggery that would proceed would be legendary. I can fully see a BLM D2ing someone who out loted them, just to get their body and take off.

[Ravenmore]

Umm because the person "buying" the +2 is there for one thing only and plans to spam them. In this case you have a ton of NMs and loot droping and knowing SE their gonna make the good stuff rare and only off a later NM. Meaning whomever is "buying" is going to lock the good item that everyone else wants. And if not, then your lotting against at least 16 others for your body. Just imagine VWNM where ~one~ body can possibly drop to the alliance loot pool, the amount of douche baggery that would proceed would be legendary. I can fully see a BLM D2ing someone who out loted them, just to get their body and take off.

And is that any differant then any LS drama. I seen the same thing happen in Endgame shells being in a LS doesn't stop people like that. On top of you missed the other point if the cool down is not 72 hours and the point items are decent just going with a LS won't cut it if they don't go everyday and spam it.

Then you misunder stood the pick up +2 groups going cause the guy shouting is offering those up to lock the emp.items. He may only have one pop but he still gets people going.

[saevel]

And is that any differant then any LS drama. I seen the same thing happen in Endgame shells being in a LS doesn't stop people like that. On top of you missed the other point if the cool down is not 72 hours and the point items are decent just going with a LS won't cut it if they don't go everyday and spam it.

Then you misunder stood the pick up +2 groups going cause the guy shouting is offering those up to lock the emp.items. He may only have one pop but he still gets people going.


One pop huh ... yeah. I'm not sure what game your playing, but people shouting for Emp items don't do one pop, everyone gets a pop and you do 4~6 of them minimum.

And while LS drama can happen, EVERY PUG is the equivalent of LS drama. The item you want drops, you have 16 other people lotting against you. Meaning you need to beat at least 8 of them assuming you get 500 as a lot. Much less competition in an LS for your gear and you tend to find more competent people.

It's like I said, you'll see PUG's for this, but LS's will be the ones cleaning out on the gear. It's just Einerjar v2.0.

[Evilaion1]

This sounds awesome. I just hope it's instanced, so more then 1 group can participate at any given time, but that's wishful thinking. Will also probably be enter once per real life day or some bs.
Aside from that, would still be cool to have some sort of content that makes having an end game LS more then just a social LS, like they ae now.

[Alhanelem]

This sounds awesome. I just hope it's instanced, so more then 1 group can participate Nothing in the game is has or ever will be instanced.

Battlefields are not really isntanced, there are a set number of them available and once htey are all full no one else can go in. The same is most likely the case for this area.

[Kimble]

Its not going to really bring back large scale linkshells because there simply isnt enough content to do that is large scale. You are going to make a group at most that will go around the same time. If you get 18-36 people in your shell, what else are you going to do? Everything else is built around low man in the game and as it stands with voidwatch, people tried to make linkshells based around that and most failed.

If all content from here on out is large scale based, make those type of linkshells will come back, but for now, most people will either A) Shout. B) Have smaller groups merge together to accomplish the event.

As long as there are enough shouters doing it, no one will want to make it based around linkshells.

[wish12oz]

I look forward to doing a large scale event like this again. I always liked einherjar simply for the fun of parsing against others and competing with them in that aspect. I hope this brings that back, and has no proc system ruining it. I might even have to look for a real LS of people to play with for this event.

[Greatguardian]

Its not going to really bring back large scale linkshells because there simply isnt enough content to do that is large scale. You are going to make a group at most that will go around the same time. If you get 18-36 people in your shell, what else are you going to do? Everything else is built around low man in the game and as it stands with voidwatch, people tried to make linkshells based around that and most failed.

If all content from here on out is large scale based, make those type of linkshells will come back, but for now, most people will either A) Shout. B) Have smaller groups merge together to accomplish the event.

As long as there are enough shouters doing it, no one will want to make it based around linkshells.

I doubt it will bring new linkshells into the picture, but large linkshells from the past most certainly still exist today on Cerberus. ElectricMayhem, Teletubbies, KoN, and Armada can easily field the numbers for Legion unless something dramatic has changed that I don't know about. If CaptainCaveman, WhirlingWind, or the Nerfed Reshell still exist, they might be able to participate as well with some minor recruitment.

Most of these shells have survived the past year without any large group events at all. They're just a collection of people who enjoy doing events together. Most already have their own mini-groups and cliques that do lowman events, with the whole shell only gathering for large-scale NMs like Voidwatch anyways. New large-scale content only gives them something to do as a linkshell again, which is hardly a bad thing.

Besides, I can't imagine the headache it would be to try to deal with rare treasure pooled drops in a pickup setting. There's a reason people didn't do pickup Fafnirs.

[Raesvelg]

The loot system more than anything else seems to be what will push this more towards a large-scale LS event rather than a VW-styled PUG event.

It's also notably different from a Abyssea pick-up group setting, since at least in Abyssea you have the option to kick someone who lots something they're not supposed to. For Legion, once you're in, you can lot whatever you want, for as long as you're in the zone.

So yeah. Given the fact that most people in the game now have 5+ jobs they want to have geared at all times, and often considerably more that they play on at least a casual basis, having some sort of system in place to regulate who gets what is going to be nearly a necessity.

Unless, of course, the content is very carefully scaled and a small group of 4-6 can kill just as many monsters as a group of 36. Which, to be honest, I find highly unlikely.

[Drivont]

This sounds like some top tier FOV/GOV stuff, since the Key Item is called a "Legion Tome Page"

[Tile]

This sounds like some top tier FOV/GOV stuff, since the Key Item is called a "Legion Tome Page"

more along the line of the Dioramas, you know the Ballista battle fields where the guy says hes going to cast mini on you and put you in alittle model he made.

[nomanni]

hey guys why the complaining and optimizim YOU CANT GET INTO LEGION YET ON TS . ITS GLITCHED . so i sujest u try it before knocking it

[Vagrua]

Except people work in absolutes in this XI and unless you happen to have a reason (like procs or some battlefield mechanic) to field a PUP, THF, DRK or whatever, those classes are always being told to sit back for more SAM, MNK, WAR action.

Dunno about you but even when I'm on PUP at Voidwatch im doing damage, utilizing my automaton for nukes and hitting procs when they come up. Procs get my foot in the door and allow me to occupy a slot, something old content bars you from when everyone is 'best DD jobs onry' mode for everything.

All I did before my break was PUG Voidwatch and many of the runs have far greater job variety than what existed at 75 endgame. People weren't bitching when I'd field my BLU, PUP, RNG or any of my other 'less than ideal' classes and I have procs to thank for that. I don't care for the regimented Abyssea-style procs but the opposite extreme of zero procs invites lvl75 methods once again.



We're still in speculation but if the content only requires 18 people (and isnt overly strategic) to reasonably win then this event is going to be popular in shout circles because the game will only have one true 'large-scale' event worth running. I mean it could really go either way at this point but even within the grounds of an endgame LS you have job tiering and shunning of certain classes if they aren't the ideal or have a reason to bring them.

I'd use the PUP example but I feel that RNG is a much better example of a class that at 75 got shunned even though it could do mid-tier damage. Was RNG bad? Compared to the top-tier classes haste stacked perhaps but it wasn't terrible. It didn't matter however because once people got in their heads that haste-stacking and zergs were all that mattered the job cratered in popularity and usefulness. Are people really that hungry for zerg fantasy XI again? The only reason we can zerg VWNM is fanatics drinks anyway.

Voidwatch gave RNG the ability to participate and hit a boatload of potential unique procs but the second things go back to throwing only the best DD the class will be back in the 'aw, its not a SAM' tier.

I have to agree with this. It was always my Masamune SAM for events until my linkshell started letting me come PUP to void for procs and the damage. The higher tier voids destroyed my SAM leaving it weakened most the time compared to my automaton never gaining hate while nuking.

I can imagine any other event that didn't involve procs wouldn't include other jobs like this. It would be nice to have an event that favored all jobs.

[Ravenmore]

I doubt it will bring new linkshells into the picture, but large linkshells from the past most certainly still exist today on Cerberus. ElectricMayhem, Teletubbies, KoN, and Armada can easily field the numbers for Legion unless something dramatic has changed that I don't know about. If CaptainCaveman, WhirlingWind, or the Nerfed Reshell still exist, they might be able to participate as well with some minor recruitment.

Most of these shells have survived the past year without any large group events at all. They're just a collection of people who enjoy doing events together. Most already have their own mini-groups and cliques that do lowman events, with the whole shell only gathering for large-scale NMs like Voidwatch anyways. New large-scale content only gives them something to do as a linkshell again, which is hardly a bad thing.

Besides, I can't imagine the headache it would be to try to deal with rare treasure pooled drops in a pickup setting. There's a reason people didn't do pickup Fafnirs.

It all hings on how good the point rewards are. If they are decent or are attractive niche peices people would be willing to pug it. Thats what I feel people are missing when looking at this. If the gear is on the same level as assult gear (when it was released) then pugs will do it. Now if you can only go twice a week then you will be more likely not to risk joining a pug and waiting for your LS to run.

[Alhanelem]

I can imagine any other event that didn't involve procs wouldn't include other jobs like this. It would be nice to have an event that favored all jobs. You don't need procs to include other jobs. You need those other jobs to simply be able to perform at the level of the others. You just got lucky that someone would let you come PUP- most linkshells wouldn't do it even for the procs. You can only have 18 out of 20 jobs maximum anyway, so three guesses which ones get left out the most?

They should need to add a contrived, artificial battle mechanic to get other jobs included. Those jobs should be included because of the things they are capable of, not because someone said "OK, there's a 10% chance you're going to need Stringing Pummel to get more loot. Bring more PUPs!"

[Khajit]

I don't like the size of it at all. It encourages large scale linkshells. It puts all but about 1( can be higher due to mules/friends) at the mercy of what could be very well an absolute twat. That's not getting into the old rule of the more people you have the more likely there is a complete buffoon who will completely fuck everything up via stupidity.

I liked how VW gave you an individual chest but hated the rest of their loot implementation.(getting drops you already had and cant give it to anyone, 0.00000000000001% drop rates and logs everywhere else) They could have found a nice medium and made it so that anything not taken out of a personal chest goes into a groupwide lootpool when the chest despawns.

[saevel]

I have to agree with this. It was always my Masamune SAM for events until my linkshell started letting me come PUP to void for procs and the damage. The higher tier voids destroyed my SAM leaving it weakened most the time compared to my automaton never gaining hate while nuking.

I can imagine any other event that didn't involve procs wouldn't include other jobs like this. It would be nice to have an event that favored all jobs.

I've said it before, but there currently are only four really *broke* jobs in FFXI right now. SMN, PUP, BST and RDM. For your LS the choice is between a powerful DD (Masa SAM) vs a broken pet job (PUP), unless there is an absolute requirement for the PUP its not much of a decision. And if you for one second try to pump up your PUP vs a fully geared Emp SAM ~outside~ of abyssea, then your delusional. Until SE significantly overhauls the pet systems, all pet jobs are going to be severely handicapped in this game.

Would your LS of cared if instead of PUP vs Masa SAM it was Emp DRG vs Emp SAM, or Emp SAM vs Emp WAR? Assuming procs were not in the equation then they wouldn't of given a rats a$$. Their answer would of been "come on your best geared DD job", which would leave the choice up to you. This game only discriminates vs really broken jobs because well, their broken and high levels of skill and gear can only do so much for a broken job. As a career RDM I've experienced this, no matter what gear I get or what merits / food / subs I choose, there is an absolute cap on what I can do with my enfeebling / nuking / healing / melee and those caps are lower then what nearly every other job in the game can do.

[wish12oz]

I've said it before, but there currently are only four really *broke* jobs in FFXI right now. SMN, PUP, BST and RDM. For your LS the choice is between a powerful DD (Masa SAM) vs a broken pet job (PUP), unless there is an absolute requirement for the PUP its not much of a decision. And if you for one second try to pump up your PUP vs a fully geared Emp SAM ~outside~ of abyssea, then your delusional. Until SE significantly overhauls the pet systems, all pet jobs are going to be severely handicapped in this game.

Would your LS of cared if instead of PUP vs Masa SAM it was Emp DRG vs Emp SAM, or Emp SAM vs Emp WAR? Assuming procs were not in the equation then they wouldn't of given a rats a$$. Their answer would of been "come on your best geared DD job", which would leave the choice up to you. This game only discriminates vs really broken jobs because well, their broken and high levels of skill and gear can only do so much for a broken job. As a career RDM I've experienced this, no matter what gear I get or what merits / food / subs I choose, there is an absolute cap on what I can do with my enfeebling / nuking / healing / melee and those caps are lower then what nearly every other job in the game can do.

I just saw about 8 posts from you, and you included they're and you're as their and your in every one of them. It makes me not care at all what you have to say, and think you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Can just go with a ls that all players pay towards the pop item, i.e. 18 players pay 20k gil each.

Also, my only concern about the gear here is if it outdates the VW gear, which would beg the question as to why the VW drop rates are so low if this event drops better gear and more of it. I got no problem with VW drop rates, as long as this new legion stuff doesnt outdate the good rare/ex peices from the higher VW tiers. I'm hoping new 99 earrings and rings can drop from here or be bought with points.

I agree this content is needed, and soon, but I hate the way things are being outdated so fast.

[Wystan]

To be honest depending on how the loot system works i would like it to out class the stuff that takes a lifetime to see only for it to be chucked into the abyss.
I'm not saying that all the hard work people put into getting their stuff should be nulled but at least make this stuff good enough for people to want it more than they want to go 0/9999999999999.

Yea i haven't even bothered with VW or much of the grind that is magin trials i just don't enjoy it that much. I look forward to this new "end game" as i looked forward to doing dyna and sky but never got the chance to try it as it was.
Would be nice to be part of a battle that actually feels like an ff fight you know dd's deal damage and healers heal we all do our bit and get some nice rewards at the end. Not sorry bud your job feeds too much tp go sit over there and run in for the proc when we say ok. Can't there be a fight where every job is useful in different ways using our unique ability's to further the group?

[Ravenmore]

Can just go with a ls that all players pay towards the pop item, i.e. 18 players pay 20k gil each.

Also, my only concern about the gear here is if it outdates the VW gear, which would beg the question as to why the VW drop rates are so low if this event drops better gear and more of it. I got no problem with VW drop rates, as long as this new legion stuff doesnt outdate the good rare/ex peices from the higher VW tiers. I'm hoping new 99 earrings and rings can drop from here or be bought with points.

I agree this content is needed, and soon, but I hate the way things are being outdated so fast.

It won't outdate the old gear. VWNM is bearly better then the gear we already had. It will all be side-grades with just enough to get the people that hate VWNM to get into it or for peolpe to do both if it has gear that VWNM doesn't have for a slot. Its no differant then Salvage and sky back at 75. Salvage was the new kid but people still did both because the gear from sky was still good.

[Camate]

Howdy everyone!

Thanks for all the feedback thus far.

I will have another post ready in just a little while to share some more information about Legion, but in the meantime I would like to share a post from Director Mizuki Ito with you which gives some insight into the new Legion content :)



Hello! This is Director Mizuki Ito.

With the test server update, we have implemented “Legion (formerly The Last Stand)”

We have already mentioned this in the overview, but Legion is a new type of battle content that is geared towards 18-36 players with high level characters. Since it is a reserved area system, it might be easy to understand what it is if you imagine the atmosphere of Limbus.

With the large scale Legion content and the smaller scale Nyzul Isle Uncharted Region, our goal is to increase the options to you depending on how many people you have.

We added this to the test server with this recent update so that you could get an idea what kind of system Legion is as well as get a feel for the general flow of the content from beginning to end.

We will be constantly adjusting the system, meaning battle balance of course, as well as drop rates and the amount of Legion point rewards, so please let us know all of your feedback.

[Coldbrand]

hurrrr battle balance

[Fusionx]

Every time balance is mentioned I keep thinking about how unbalanced getting Limbus sets for Ultima/Omega is lol.

I have to say I'm excited to try the system when it goes live, but I'm interested in why 3 people are required to enter if the content is grouped for 18+ people. Will the event be possible with 3 people (but with fewer points/rewards since few enemies could be defeated)?

[Kaisha]

So we got Voidwatch NMs in old zones we been through hundreds of times in the past.
We got WoE in its cut&paste area design.
We got revamps of old contents coming our way.

Now we get a single zone that's a barebones cut&paste of the Horutoto zone tileset, with 3 NMs haphazardly thrown in per wave.

It's hard to feel the excitement of new content when it's all old assets and AI patterns, especially when every hall for the event is the exact same looking room. Especially for me when this event further compounds the problems RDM has with being a viable party spot by having all of the NMs resist nearly every debuff you could cast on them.

[Phafi]

How exactly are we to test drop rates and legion points if nobody goes on the test server so that we can feasibly win these battles?

[Camate]

Alrighty, now for the promised post. Sorry it took me a bit!

I would like to apologize for the inconvenience of not being able to properly test this content due to a bug. (This has been fixed!)

Many players have requested that this content be accessible to smaller parties, but as Director Ito stated (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19568-dev1047-Thoughts-Feedback-on-Legion?p=263006&viewfull=1#post263006), Legion is meant for large parties. This does not mean that we do not plan on implementing new content for smaller parties. As the “Nyzul Isle Investigation” is meant for smaller parties, Legion is meant for larger parties. We hope you understand.
　
　

I understand that this content involves claimed zones, but is it possible for multiple parties to simultaneously enter the same zone?
I really hope that the tragedies of the old Dynamis and Limbus areas are not repeated.


Similarly to the “Nyzul Isle Investigation,” the claimed zones in Legion will turn into an instance. Although there will be a limit, multiple parties will be able to simultaneously enter the same area.
　

I am genuinely happy that we are given 30 minutes for this content.
However, I would like the difficulty to be adjusted based on the number of players participating.

If one legion pass is traded, the difficulty will be set for 18 players.
If two legion passes are traded, the difficulty will be set for 18 players plus the number of additional players in the second pass (6, 12 or 18 players).


We adjust the difficulty based on the number of players participating by adjusting the strength of the monsters that appear.

Other than that, there are no differences based on the number of players, so players will be able to enjoy the same battle content and obtain the same loot and legion points whether they have 18 players or 36.
※Although the content may be the same, it is possible for an alliance of 36 players to be able to obtain more loot, since they will be able to defeat more monsters.
　


　I do not want items to be dropped using the lotting system! I want items to be dropped as individual rewards!

The reward system for Legion is separated into the lotting system and trading for legion points. Trading for legion points is more similar to the individual reward system that you bring up.

Also, since this content has a time limit, we decided that obtaining loot from treasure chests would take up too much time. There is no limit to the number of monsters that appear, so players can maximize their obtained loot by defeating more monsters within the given time.

I would like players to creatively strategize to obtain as much loot as possible in one run.

[saevel]

　I do not want items to be dropped using the lotting system! I want items to be dropped as individual rewards!
Who ever said this needs to be drug out into the street and shot as a demonstration.

This is the absolute WORST idea ever created in any MMO that has ever existed.

[Kimble]

Who ever said this needs to be drug out into the street and shot as a demonstration.

This is the absolute WORST idea ever created in any MMO that has ever existed.

Its not a bad idea. Its only bad when items have a very low drop rate.

[Economizer]

Its only bad when items have a very low drop rate.

The whole R/E gear bit was part of it too in my opinion, although removing that EX tag makes it so people are more encouraged to bring mules instead of inviting someone else.

[Prothscar]

There's nothing wrong with individual rewards, and there's nothing wrong with the drop rates, the problem lies in the distribution of the loot that drops. You could get 3 bodies in one run, but if all three of those bodies go to the same person...

[Alhanelem]

People on the test server (using smaller than the minimum required group, like 5 people or so) have reported being able to kill some of the monsters.

Mind you, these are NM-like mobs. It's not like you're fighting a jillion trash mobs as in dynamis or something. It's not going to be a walk in the park if you go with a small gorup, because you'll be in big trouble if you link/aggro mobs. But I imagine people will be able to do well enough with a less-than-full alliance.

Camate; i think the most number of people anyone wants to do anything with anymore is one alliance. This should be built for 6-18 people, not 18-36. nyzul Isle is for 3-6; i think the former is considered "large group" and the latter "small group" by player standards.

[Keyln]

People on the test server (using smaller than the minimum required group, like 5 people or so) have reported being able to kill some of the monsters.

Mind you, these are NM-like mobs. It's not like you're fighting a jillion trash mobs as in dynamis or something. It's not going to be a walk in the park if you go with a small gorup, because you'll be in big trouble if you link/aggro mobs. But I imagine people will be able to do well enough with a less-than-full alliance.

Camate; i think the most number of people anyone wants to do anything with anymore is one alliance. This should be built for 6-18 people, not 18-36. nyzul Isle is for 3-6; i think the former is considered "large group" and the latter "small group" by player standards.

Player standards are too low then. Back in the heyday of ToAU, events like Dynamis and Einjerhar were large group events, requiring multiple alliances and linkshells to tackle.

I think it's rather nice and refreshing to see a new large scale event again. We haven't seen any of those since ToAU.

[Corwin]

2007 XI =! 2012 XI

[Arcon]

2007 XI =! 2012 XI

Sadly, you're right. But it can be again.

[Kimble]

Sadly, you're right. But it can be again.

You'd need that type of player base to grow. Its going to be something that steady happens though. As it stands, the only 2 events right now that you would even use a large scale ls to do is Voidwatch *(can be done in shout) and this new Legion. If they keep adding more events like it, I can see large scale LS coming back. As of now, there just isnt enough content to support that again.

[Arcon]

You'd need that type of player base to grow. Its going to be something that steady happens though. As it stands, the only 2 events right now that you would even use a large scale ls to do is Voidwatch *(can be done in shout) and this new Legion. If they keep adding more events like it, I can see large scale LS coming back. As of now, there just isnt enough content to support that again.

That's why I said, it could be again. The reaction from this thread shows that people in general wouldn't mind large scale events coming back (of course, some people are opposed to it too, but overall I feel that most people in here welcome this change). SE still needs to release the dungeon crawl system they announced, it will probably be something in the same vein as this. Not to mention the Einherjar overhaul (Einherjar requires some people even now), and possibly even the Limbus overhaul. I can see large scale LS events coming back (it certainly sounds like SE wants them to).

[Kimble]

Einherjar I can give you. Limbus, not so much. Was never needed to be large scale and most shells I was in didn't even do it because smaller limbus groups existed.

Content like this will either bring it back, or kill off whats left of the player base because most of the player base (at least on the server I was on) would much rather stay in small groups. If the game goes back to being a schedule and not able to do events as you wish freely on your time, I don't know how much longer it will last. Its best hope is that it some how brings back the players that liked that system from 2002-2008.

[Krashport]

Legion.. Last Stand... whatever they want to call it, kinda seems/smells like old school Dynamis. Rent a zone for said time frame farm farm farm.

[Ravenmore]

The reward system for Legion is separated into the lotting system and trading for legion points. Trading for legion points is more similar to the individual reward system that you bring up.

Think Camate should clear this part up before some one blows this up to something its not.

[Fusionx]

Think Camate should clear this part up before some one blows this up to something its not.

What is there to clear up?

You get items from mobs that drop in the pool, then you get legion points that you can spend on items for yourself. It's pretty clear to me.

[Ravenmore]

What is there to clear up?

You get items from mobs that drop in the pool, then you get legion points that you can spend on items for yourself. It's pretty clear to me.

Have you not read what some here take out of context.

[Prothscar]

It'll likely work just like Einherjar with all boss mobs instead of trash pulls, which respawn until your time runs out, and those boss mobs can decent grade or high grade loot while you can trade in your credits for items similar to ampoule items. I'm personally looking forward to it, Einherjar was one of the best events ever put into FFXI.

[Tile]

It'll likely work just like Einherjar with all boss mobs instead of trash pulls, which respawn until your time runs out, and those boss mobs can decent grade or high grade loot while you can trade in your credits for items similar to ampoule items. I'm personally looking forward to it, Einherjar was one of the best events ever put into FFXI.

Think the problem is some people have never done Einherjar, and this is just Einherjar 2.0

You may not get a certain item drop from a mob your first run, but you'll be earning points to spend on other cool items. most of the ones from Einherjar were rings, wouldn't surprise me if Legion items were just better versions of them. Earing, rings, and afew other odd items maybe a weapon or two.

the items you got from Einherjar points weren't the best piece of gear, but they were still pretty good. and all it takes is afew runs to get them.

[Kindra]

Here is a question I haven't seen asked yet. Will there be a cool down period between runs? Like with old Dynamis or current Einherjar. And if so, how long will that cool down period be?

[Coldbrand]

I hope they add another DD earring, lot of jobs are stuck using weird stuff.

[Quetzacoatl]

There's nothing wrong with individual rewards, and there's nothing wrong with the drop rates, the problem lies in the distribution of the loot that drops. You could get 3 bodies in one run, but if all three of those bodies go to the same person...

And that's precisely it. Until SE learns to quit dodging that issue, individual drops will be a bad idea.

[Tanakisnumberone]

i hope dis brings back old linkshells where we all cater to our leaders. i feel dat brought about the sense of community, tanaka-sans new vision for legion should b one where we all work together to complete members items one at a time.

[Saiken253]

No, that's a horrible idea... Simply because only 1 person will be seeing progression while the others are grumbling and scheming on how to be the next person to be focused on(especially if it's going to need to have a huge amount of players).

Einherjar was wonderful and it should be similar to that. If not, we're all going to be terribly disappointed

[Mahoro]

People on the test server (using smaller than the minimum required group, like 5 people or so) have reported being able to kill some of the monsters.

Mind you, these are NM-like mobs. It's not like you're fighting a jillion trash mobs as in dynamis or something. It's not going to be a walk in the park if you go with a small gorup, because you'll be in big trouble if you link/aggro mobs. But I imagine people will be able to do well enough with a less-than-full alliance.

Camate; i think the most number of people anyone wants to do anything with anymore is one alliance. This should be built for 6-18 people, not 18-36. nyzul Isle is for 3-6; i think the former is considered "large group" and the latter "small group" by player standards.

This assumption is wrong. There are people who want to do events with more than one alliance. In any event, I believe it was stated the difficulty scales depending on whether you enter with one alliance or two. So essentially, it IS built for 6-18 people, and also built for 18-36 if you have that.

[Camate]

Howdy!

Based on all the feedback we have been receiving I just wanted to address some of the issues regarding preparation for this content and the required number of players.
　
Changes to the steps leading up to the battle

Currently, players will be automatically transported to the battlefield to begin the battle 5 minutes after the Legion pass is issued. However, in order to avoid players being forced to begin the battle before they are fully prepared, we will adjust this feature so that players are only transported to the battlefield once they have chosen to begin the battle. This change will be reflected during the next test server update.
　
　
Number of participants and battle difficulty


It was said that “based on your circumstance, please try this battle with either 18 or 36 players.”
This suggests that you can only select from 2 difficulty levels.

As such, it will be difficult to succeed unless there are exactly 18 or 36 players.

My point is that if there are 19 players, the 18 player option is unavailable, so the 36 player option must be chosen. However, it would be difficult to complete content with difficulty set for 36 players with only 19 players.

I would like the difficulty set for each number of participating players between 18 and 36, for example if there are 19 players participating, the difficulty should be set for 19 players.

If there are only 2 difficulty levels, I am afraid that the content can only be enjoyed with exactly 18 or 36 players, which would make it difficult to casually gather players to try this content.

The biggest difference between selecting 18 players or 36 players is the difference in the number of Legion passes issued. The strength of the monsters is adjusted based on the number of players participating, but the number and types of monsters that appear are unaffected.

The point of legion is not to “complete” the battle, but to see how many monsters can be defeated in the given time. As such, the difference caused by changing the number of participating players is that the number of monsters defeated (≒number of loot items) will change. There will be no inconvenience in game-play due to a lack of participating players.

With that said, there is a significant difference in battle capabilities between 10 players and 30 players, which is why we decided to prepare 2 versions of the battle. As a result, having fewer players is not a disadvantage and having many players is not an advantage.

We would like to continue to answer your questions and suggestions, so please continue to give your feedback.

[Alhanelem]

This assumption is wrong. There are people who want to do events with more than one alliance. In any event, I believe it was stated the difficulty scales depending on whether you enter with one alliance or two. So essentially, it IS built for 6-18 people, and also built for 18-36 if you have that. Really? I don't know anybody who's excited about the idea of needing at least a full alliance to get anything good from this.
The assumption is accurate. Just replace the implied "all" with "most" if it makes you happy.

Also, the difficulty only scales up over 18 people. It doesn't scale down below 18 people. You enter with 6, it's still designed for 18.

there needs to be a third option for 12 or somthing less than 18 people because I fear it will be difficult to participate in this with

Also of concern is that a "Kill as much stuff as fast as you can" event is going to exclude all but the most top tier DDs and support classes for them. Just how well do you have to perform to be rewarded in a worthwhile way?

[Tanakisnumberone]

plz keep in mind Tanaka-san's vision for this event, Alhanelem. we hope to have this event where big ls will participate and work for the leader or designated member one at a time. this is the true spirit of ffxi and tanaka-sans vision

[Alhanelem]

^
I don't think this is going to end well.

[Coldbrand]

I already like this troll.

[Sparthos]

Guys impersonating a SE employee, why hasn't he been banned.

[Glamdring]

finally, an event that's like old Dynamis! armies of players, difficult opponents, no stupid !! proc systems, and (apparently) desireable rewards! I be happy as a clam. You even fixed the stupidest issue of Old Dynamis... that only 1 group could go to the zone, but without making people fight over mobs.

Now the only issue i'll have is the same one I always did in Old Dynamis. As a Bard I always had to scream about Target control to the alliance, they would ignore it and I got to ask a whm for a raise, seeing as how I'm usually the main sleeper (ain't much resists light-based sleep). Least getting XP now is such a joke I can afford the deaths.

[Krashport]

The point of legion is not to “complete” the battle, but to see how many monsters can be defeated in the given time. As such, the difference caused by changing the number of participating players is that the number of monsters defeated (≒number of loot items) will change. There will be no inconvenience in game-play due to a lack of participating players. So its more like The Swarm. (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/The_Swarm)

[Tanakisnumberone]

Guys impersonating a SE employee, why hasn't he been banned.

i'm sry u must b confused? maybe my comment stating "we", i mean't we, the players ^^. I am just a big fan of Tanaka-san, plz don't confuse this

[Tile]

What i want to know is how Many groups can go in Legion at the same time, and how often you can do it.

Is Legion update going to be like alot of the others, where everyone rushs to try it and it gets overwhelmed, kicking groups out or causing massive connection problems. making them close Legion down after 1 hour to fix everything.

is it only going to be 1 group per room and 1/2 the server is going to be waiting outside spamming the NPC for 10 hours trying to get inside.

once per day after jp midnight? every 3 days like dynamis used to be and Limbus still is. or as long as you have gil you have a way inside

[Dragoy]

I am glad to FINALLY see something with an Einherjar-esque reward-system (Therion Ichor).
There should be more things that reward everyone no matter what, and what's most important, equally (hoping so any ways).

I don't think I will be participating in Legion (as named at the time of typing, formerly The Last Stand) due to the amount of player-characters required, and the high entry cost.
Obviously it is not that high for a group of 18-36 characters, but as many others, I doubt it will be easy to gather such groups unless there is something that everyone can reasonably get out of it.
The cost is no doubt to help prevent players from doing this 'too much', and there will likely be a time limit on re-entry because of 'congestion', and I'm sure 'time-sink' is a part of it, too, to keep players playing longer and so forth.

Many will say it's as lazy as 'new' content can get.
It may bee, but if they do this right, it might be fun (like so many other things could be, but... right).
I may try it for fun with a few friends, if we're able to enter, but I don't see myself really spending time with anything like this these days...

Good luck, I guess~

[Mahoro]

Really? I don't know anybody who's excited about the idea of needing at least a full alliance to get anything good from this.
The assumption is accurate. Just replace the implied "all" with "most" if it makes you happy.

Perhaps you don't know anybody personally, but people in this thread have already expressed their excitement. So now you know.


Also, the difficulty only scales up over 18 people. It doesn't scale down below 18 people. You enter with 6, it's still designed for 18.

there needs to be a third option for 12 or somthing less than 18 people because I fear it will be difficult to participate in this with

Also of concern is that a "Kill as much stuff as fast as you can" event is going to exclude all but the most top tier DDs and support classes for them. Just how well do you have to perform to be rewarded in a worthwhile way?

It doesn't scale down below 18, but people on the test server have already reported being able to clear mobs with much fewer than 18. And since this is point system content, I imagine an ally of 12 can still walk out with some Legion points for their efforts. Time will tell.

[tyrantsyn]

Starting to sound like Horde mode from GOW or Zombie's from COD. I guess that could be really cool if it's done right.

[Manicora]

I have hopes that I know will be shattered by SE and the Fuktards who think they should "Tweek" this Idea. A Serious group of players go in, and Kill as many mobs as they can, and Get great rewards that Not everyone can. They Spam this event as often as they can until everyone gets there Items and They move on.
Sadly this probably will not be the case, since SE likes to modify decent plans to Give everyone a random chance to get something so even if you happen to clear the whole event, you may get only a Log or ingot that NPC's for 1-5k GL all

[Tile]

I have hopes that I know will be shattered by SE and the Fuktards who think they should "Tweek" this Idea. A Serious group of players go in, and Kill as many mobs as they can, and Get great rewards that Not everyone can. They Spam this event as often as they can until everyone gets there Items and They move on.
Sadly this probably will not be the case, since SE likes to modify decent plans to Give everyone a random chance to get something so even if you happen to clear the whole event, you may get only a Log or ingot that NPC's for 1-5k GL all

thats why there is a Point system. each kill gives you X amount of points, you then spend those on the items you want.

if you did einherjar you'd see exactly where this is going, the mobs will drop maybe 2-3 gear sets (Einherjar had abj.) but most of the stuff was from the point system.

[Alhanelem]

Perhaps you don't know anybody personally, but people in this thread have already expressed their excitement.People in this thread have also expressed their disdain and/or concern, so I fail to see your point. pointing out that one or more people in this thread like the idea of the event before having participated in it is not a scientific means of gauging interest. I'd wager a majority (meaning at least 51%) of FFXI players don't even read these forums, much less post.

[Tile]

People in this thread have also expressed their disdain and/or concern, so I fail to see your point. pointing out that one or more people in this thread like the idea of the event before having participated in it is not a scientific means of gauging interest. I'd wager a majority (meaning at least 51%) of FFXI players don't even read these forums, much less post.

only 2 or 3 people in my LS would read the forum, want to say 8 didn't know about them. rest don't go cause they thiink that either the info is not worth learning, or they think its pointless cause no one's voice gets heard

[Camate]

I have returned yet again to share some additional responses to feedback in regards to the new Legion content.



Are there essentially only 2 (for 18 or 36 players) difficulty levels?
Does this mean that it would be very difficult to attempt the battle for 36 players with only 19 players?
Would it be possible to set the battle for 18 players at the easiest setting and gradually increase the difficulty for each additional player participating? I think that would be more enjoyable for the players.



I think it would be best to set the lowest difficulty setting for the minimum possible number of participating players and gradually increase the difficulty for each additional player participating.

I understand that adjusting the balance would probably be difficult, but it would be great if difficulty settings for 6, 12, 18, 24, 30 and 36 players can be prepared.

In order to prevent all players from participating in this content with a 6 player party, a bonus that increases with the number of players participating can be implemented.

A special point system can be implemented, in which more bonus points are awarded when more players are participating.


The difficulty for the 36 player version will not be twice as difficult as the 18 player version. The difference will not be large enough to cause a significant disadvantage.

In terms of efficiency, it would definitely be more efficient to participate with exactly 18 or 36 players, but it is still possible to participate in this content with fewer players, although efficiency would be sacrificed. In other words, it is not necessary to gather 36 players, and the difficulty settings will be set so that it is still possible to complete this content with 19 players.
　
Differences in battle strength will not affect the strength of the monsters, but instead will affect the number of monsters the party is able to defeat.

The fact that legion content is not based on completion/fail basis is the biggest difference from usual battlefields. If the enemies’ strength is changed linearly with the number of players participating, parties of 19 or 36 players would be able to defeat the same number of monsters. This would greatly alter the foundation of this content, including how loot is distributed.

Finally, the minimum number of players necessary to participate in this content is intentionally set lower than the number of players necessary to effectively participate in this content. This is because we do not want to set system limitations so that players are unable to creatively take on a very difficult challenge. I think it would be fun for players to attempt challenges such as trying to defeat only one monster with a very small party.



I apologize if this question has been asked before.

What will happen to the items in the loot pool once 30 minutes are up?
If the loot is placed at the entrance after the battle, as was the case with Limbus, the loot will remain in the loot pool, which gives players about 5 minutes to distribute the loot.
From what I can tell, it seems like players will be sent out to Sauromugue after the battle.

Actually, I was trying to test this out while soloing and failed miserably. I got demolished by turtles, snakes and wyrms... lol

This content is a continuous battle against monsters, so I’m sure there will be occasions where a monster is defeated right before time is up. I would be very disappointed if these efforts are for naught, so I would like to know how the time limit and loot distribution will actually work.

There is no need to worry. In order for players to be able to enjoy the battle right until the end, we will prepare time, which is separate from the time limit, for players to distribute loot. To be specific, once the time limit is up, players will be transferred to the lobby area, where they will have 5 minutes to lot on loot.



Since it seems like items are distributed through the lotting system, is this a good representation of the loot system in legion?

Less players
Pros: Less lotting competition (If 6 players are going after 1 item, there is a 16% chance of obtaining the item)
Cons: Less monsters defeated (less item drops), More responsibility for players during the battle
More players
Pros: More monsters defeated (more item drops), Less responsibility for players during the battle
Cons: More lotting competition (If 36 players are going after 1 item, there is a 2% chance of obtaining the item)


With regard to loot, players can obtain loot either through trading Legion points or through the lotting system. If a lot of monsters are defeated by many players, there will be more loot dropped, which means there are more chances to obtain loot. Even if a player fails to obtain an item through lotting, that player accumulates Legion points with each run, which will allow the player to possibly trade for the item. With more players, there certainly is more competition when lotting on an item, but considering that there are more loot items dropped, the probability of obtaining an item will not drop as severely as you mentioned.

[darkhorror]

This is really looking like from the description the event I have been waiting for. With the loot and point system should make it a lot of fun and can work towards the items I want. Now I just hope the gear, items that are dropped are worthwhile.

[Valkrist]

How are legion points handled though? More monsters killed means more points? Also how does the difficulty affect the points obtained? This would be a pretty big selling point of whether or not to go with 18, 19 or 36 people (19 because of less competition of drops, but possible higher legion points awarded per kill.)

[Greatguardian]

If I'm understanding this correctly, every participant in the battle zone gets Legion Points on a per-kill basis.

I doubt the amount of points per kill are changed based on the number of people present, as this would create a static relation between the number of players present and the amount of points accrued per run. 36 member groups will likely obtain more points per person than 18 member groups because they will kill more monsters. This encourages large group play for points while still maintaining an equitable distribution of items in the actual treasure pool.

Legion is golden. As long as the implementation is solid, I don't see how they can go wrong with this event.

[Helel]

Based on Camate's responses, it seems that the # of monsters killed = amount of legion points you get. It doesn't seem to be divided among the number of people at the event, so a 36 person run would grant you more legion points than an 18 person run. As he already pointed out as well, the difficult of the monsters does not change. The only thing that changes is the amount of monsters.

[Zubis]

The treasure system sounds great actually, giving both a random chance at loot while offering players the ability to get that loot over a longer period of time through points - pretty much what players have been asking for a while now.

Thanks for all the news this week Camate.

[Septimus]

I have returned yet again to share some additional responses to feedback in regards to the new Legion content.




The difficulty for the 36 player version will not be twice as difficult as the 18 player version. The difference will not be large enough to cause a significant disadvantage.

In terms of efficiency, it would definitely be more efficient to participate with exactly 18 or 36 players, but it is still possible to participate in this content with fewer players, although efficiency would be sacrificed. In other words, it is not necessary to gather 36 players, and the difficulty settings will be set so that it is still possible to complete this content with 19 players.
　
Differences in battle strength will not affect the strength of the monsters, but instead will affect the number of monsters the party is able to defeat.

The fact that legion content is not based on completion/fail basis is the biggest difference from usual battlefields. If the enemies’ strength is changed linearly with the number of players participating, parties of 19 or 36 players would be able to defeat the same number of monsters. This would greatly alter the foundation of this content, including how loot is distributed.

Finally, the minimum number of players necessary to participate in this content is intentionally set lower than the number of players necessary to effectively participate in this content. This is because we do not want to set system limitations so that players are unable to creatively take on a very difficult challenge. I think it would be fun for players to attempt challenges such as trying to defeat only one monster with a very small party.


There is no need to worry. In order for players to be able to enjoy the battle right until the end, we will prepare time, which is separate from the time limit, for players to distribute loot. To be specific, once the time limit is up, players will be transferred to the lobby area, where they will have 5 minutes to lot on loot.



With regard to loot, players can obtain loot either through trading Legion points or through the lotting system. If a lot of monsters are defeated by many players, there will be more loot dropped, which means there are more chances to obtain loot. Even if a player fails to obtain an item through lotting, that player accumulates Legion points with each run, which will allow the player to possibly trade for the item. With more players, there certainly is more competition when lotting on an item, but considering that there are more loot items dropped, the probability of obtaining an item will not drop as severely as you mentioned.

Why is the Dev Team so in love with large-group activities? I don't even know 36 other people who play this game anymore, and I don't want to recruit a bunch of people into a linkshell or quit my LS which has been my home for nearly 7 years just so I can join a large LS where the Leader and his friends will magically have the points to have sole lotting rights to every piece of gear. This game it too old to support large-group events anymore.

[Glamdring]

still want points handled a bit more like Campaign/Balista XP, on a contribution basis. i.e. no work=no points. As I've said numerous times I HATE leeches. If all a player is gonna do is take up space while I have to do their job AND mine in a pt/alliance then I should be getting their reward as well as mine. Otherwise, looks VERY good.

[saevel]

The treasure system sounds great actually, giving both a random chance at loot while offering players the ability to get that loot over a longer period of time through points - pretty much what players have been asking for a while now.

Thanks for all the news this week Camate.

Well I'm going to hold my opinion on loot until I see what the point buys are vs the drops. If the drops are nice but the point buys are like Assault, then yeah it'll end up being crap. But if the point buys are actually good gear, then I'll be cheering.

[Tile]

With regard to loot, players can obtain loot either through trading Legion points or through the lotting system. If a lot of monsters are defeated by many players, there will be more loot dropped, which means there are more chances to obtain loot. Even if a player fails to obtain an item through lotting, that player accumulates Legion points with each run, which will allow the player to possibly trade for the item. With more players, there certainly is more competition when lotting on an item, but considering that there are more loot items dropped, the probability of obtaining an item will not drop as severely as you mentioned.

Wait are you telling us every Item that drops can be bought with points too? Please tell me there are atleast some items that are only drops or points

[Sparthos]

If I'm understanding this correctly, every participant in the battle zone gets Legion Points on a per-kill basis.

I doubt the amount of points per kill are changed based on the number of people present, as this would create a static relation between the number of players present and the amount of points accrued per run. 36 member groups will likely obtain more points per person than 18 member groups because they will kill more monsters. This encourages large group play for points while still maintaining an equitable distribution of items in the actual treasure pool.

Legion is golden. As long as the implementation is solid, I don't see how they can go wrong with this event.

When I see the loot I'll review it. Also, whats the cooldown?

It wouldn't be the first time SE implements something that sounds good on paper that then fails because the loot is so situational that the base doesn't take to the system.

[saevel]

Wait are you telling us every Item that drops can be bought with points too? Please tell me there are atleast some items that are only drops or points

That highly depends, I don't like drop only because you can theoretically NEVER get your gear. With points you can always keep chipping away at it.

[Seyomeyo]

With regard to loot, players can obtain loot either through trading Legion points or through the lotting system. If a lot of monsters are defeated by many players, there will be more loot dropped, which means there are more chances to obtain loot. Even if a player fails to obtain an item through lotting, that player accumulates Legion points with each run, which will allow the player to possibly trade for the item. With more players, there certainly is more competition when lotting on an item, but considering that there are more loot items dropped, the probability of obtaining an item will not drop as severely as you mentioned.

wow......I'm actually really excited about this system now!

[detlef]

still want points handled a bit more like Campaign/Balista XP, on a contribution basis. i.e. no work=no points. As I've said numerous times I HATE leeches. If all a player is gonna do is take up space while I have to do their job AND mine in a pt/alliance then I should be getting their reward as well as mine. Otherwise, looks VERY good.And then healing and support jobs get screwed.

[brayen]

Expanding on what was said about the lot system, are you confirming that items that drop from monsters are also in fact able to be bought with legion points as well? this seems like a good idea... BUT somehow i am doubtful SE will miss out on a chance to add the few good items locked away on a free for all lotting bonanza which only spawns in a field with 36 players...so i ask, is there any chance we could get some insight/clarification on this specific question?

The idea of seeing not only drops come from a random number generator(which i hate) also coming form an effort based system(points) means even if you waste a billion hours working to try and get a said item, you can cash out your points to get it which means you are never wasting time. Which would be good but until confirmation is given i will hold back on my hopes.

[SpankWustler]

It sounds like the items that drop and the items obtainable using points are one and the same, if that sentence about rewards can be taken literally. I was not expecting that.

Hearing all this stuff about Legion gives me far more hope for future end-game activities than I had previously. The "random stuff, happening randomly!" theme running deep through Voidwatch and more recently Neo-Nyzul Isle had me worried that the future would be random number generation forever.

I guess the whole thing could be torpedoed by horrid rewards, but it seems like someone would have to really screw up for that to be the case. Even situational equipment and minor upgrades feel worth pursuing if the nagging fear of going 0/457 isn't there.

[Glamdring]

And then healing and support jobs get screwed.

not really, early on in campaign my bard was rolling in XP since every song that hit the pt gave me XP, every debuff helpped, every point of damage I cured (but not regened, XP was only for the initial cast), even sleeps. As all healers are currently capable of other things (enfeebs, buffs, etc.), contribution systems can be made to account for that. And if worse comes to worse, you ARE carrying a weapon.

But a guy who just parks his alt (or even his main) to just suck up rewards while doing nothing? yeah, the hell with him.

[Prothscar]

Legion is a system that I don't see how anyone could find faults with it. You can do it with smaller numbers, you will always be guaranteed your item (if the point system is as previously described), it's just all around a well crafted event. It's what Voidwatch's loot system should be.

[Alhanelem]

Even if a player fails to obtain an item through lotting, that player accumulates Legion points with each run, which will allow the player to possibly trade for the item.Can you clarify something please- Does this mean the same items can be obtained from points as the ones that drop in the battle?

[Tile]

Can you clarify something please- Does this mean the same items can be obtained from points as the ones that drop in the battle?

Yea what I said before him.

[Luvbunny]

Legion sounds great on paper - idea wise - hope that the implementation will be as amazing. Now can we please have the point system to be added to voidwatch so that we can also have something to look forward for that activities?

[JiltedValkyrie]

Can't wait to try this one out.

[Manicora]

Seems to Have insta agro upon enter so unless you have 2-3 tanks and a TON of DD this will be a death trap for most.
Also HQ King type mobs there from Behemoth and Aspid and Faf/nid/Jourmy/Tiamat/Vrtra Khim Even some Dverge mobs too, think all HNM type mobs are there and they do not seem to hold back.

[Scribble]

Why is the Dev Team so in love with large-group activities? I don't even know 36 other people who play this game anymore, and I don't want to recruit a bunch of people into a linkshell or quit my LS which has been my home for nearly 7 years just so I can join a large LS where the Leader and his friends will magically have the points to have sole lotting rights to every piece of gear. This game it too old to support large-group events anymore.

Why so dramatic? You don't have to quit your LS or make another one. You aren't required to find 36 people to participate. I'm certain there will be enough interest that you'll be able to find a group.

Points don't accrue magically. You get them for participating. It's an event with built in DKP where you decide which items you want without some screwy priority system based on how much you suck up to an LS leader. Sounds like win to me.

[Mahoro]

People in this thread have also expressed their disdain and/or concern, so I fail to see your point. pointing out that one or more people in this thread like the idea of the event before having participated in it is not a scientific means of gauging interest. I'd wager a majority (meaning at least 51%) of FFXI players don't even read these forums, much less post.

I never said it was. However, it's an undisputed way to rebut your comment that you don't know anybody who is excited about the idea of needing a full alliance to do an event. After reading this thread, now you do. Don't know how to make the point clearer that you say you fail to see. People are excited about the "IDEA" (your words) of a full alliance event. Obviously, we haven't tried it yet. Are we not allowed to express excitement until we participate in something, yet you are allowed to express your disdain? :p

[Sparthos]

The viability of PUG vs set LS run also hinges on the cooldown.

Is this a one/day thing?

[Mahoro]

Why is the Dev Team so in love with large-group activities? I don't even know 36 other people who play this game anymore, and I don't want to recruit a bunch of people into a linkshell or quit my LS which has been my home for nearly 7 years just so I can join a large LS where the Leader and his friends will magically have the points to have sole lotting rights to every piece of gear. This game it too old to support large-group events anymore.

It's old, but it's not THAT old such that large-group events aren't viable anymore. VW proved that you can still support alliance-size events, as even in PUG's people usually won't go with less than 18. Most large LS's left still get around 25 members per event. For Legion, I'm willing to bet 18-man PUG's will be formed and the larger LS's might be able to do 36-man difficulty, perhaps inviting a few "friends of the LS" to farm Legion points.

Also, not all large LS's operate the way you described. Some are quite fair and members earn DKP through transparent means.

[Camate]

Alrighty, I have a couple answers to some questions I am seeing in this thread.

Dropped items/point items
The items you can receive via drops will differ from those that you can obtain by exchanging Legion points. Apologies if it was misconstrued from previous posts that they would be the same items. Essentially even if you lose a lotting battle to obtain an item, by participating in the battle and saving up points you can get a reward.

Cool down timer for re-entry
There is actually no cool down timer and as long as the area is free and you are in possession of the key-item needed to enter, you can repeat this content again and again.

Also, in regards to the specific questions on point acquisition, I am still checking with the development team and should have an answer pretty soon.

[Kalilla]

Oh the lies ; ;.... Camate how could you ; ;

I think that is what everyone really loved hearing about it lol, and that there would be some rare items in there to keep us coming.

It might still be alright, still keeping positive about it ; ;

[Zubis]

Dreams...crushed :(

Camate would it be possible for you to check if the items you purchase with points are either :

a) Lower Quality or Higher Quality versions of the random items dropped?
Mekira Meikogai vs Mekira Toshugai for example.

b) Completely different items.

Thank you.

[Kalilla]

Dreams...crushed :(
Yea ; ;...

[Alhanelem]

well, at least there is no waiting time, that's kinda nice.

[Washburn]

Probably a stone System like vw and abyssea.

[saevel]

Well if the point buy items are good then it'll be ok. But if their like Assault items, largely useless, then your back to praying on the RNG gods. Also depends on what the drop rates are on the NMs inside.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Dreams...crushed :(

Camate would it be possible for you to check if the items you purchase with points are either :

a) Lower Quality or Higher Quality versions of the random items dropped?
Mekira Meikogai vs Mekira Toshugai for example.

b) Completely different items.

Thank you.It sounds more like completely different items.

[SpankWustler]

Dropped items/point items
The items you can receive via drops will differ from those that you can obtain by exchanging Legion points. Apologies if it was misconstrued from previous posts that they would be the same items. Essentially even if you lose a lotting battle to obtain an item, by participating in the battle and saving up points you can get a reward.

So, the rewards are a dichotomy, exactly like Einherjar. I wonder if the same developer primarily designed both events, since they're so similar. Not that the similarity is a bad thing. Einherjar was one of my favorite things back at 75.


Cool down timer for re-entry
There is actually no cool down timer and as long as the area is free and you are in possession of the key-item needed to enter, you can repeat this content again and again.

http://images.mylot.com/userImages/images/postphotos/2292874.jpg

[Metalgod]

If there are only say x3 instances for 3 zones that will give us 9 zones total to use (guessing). I think there should be a timer to prevent overcrowding and hoarding of a zone by people. Remember not everyone has time to wait on others to try low man runs and etc. Even if its a 1 or 2 hour re-entry after a run would suffice in allowing more people access to these zones. Unless SE is making it true instanced than this won't matter.

[Alhanelem]

Probably a stone System like vw and abyssea.
no, you just pay the fee and get the thingymajig to enter. you can't keep paying to stay inside, it's only 30 minute time slots.

[Tile]

Alrighty, I have a couple answers to some questions I am seeing in this thread.
Cool down timer for re-entry
There is actually no cool down timer and as long as the area is free and you are in possession of the key-item needed to enter, you can repeat this content again and again.

I can see it Now only 1 group can be inside at a time, 4 hours after update Sauromugue Champaign will be closed down for Emergency Maintenance. and moogles will be Stationed around the area telling us to play nice. not trying to be mean to you Camate. Just we've seen this happen many times before.

Can you Send word to the Dev team now to expect this. as awesome as no cool down timer is its going to cause issues. Maybe make its 1 -2 hour cool down to help ease the congestion atleast for the first week.

[Sparthos]

No cooldown...

My inner Admiral Ackbar is trying to tell me something.

[Arcon]

well, at least there is no waiting time, that's kinda nice.

Depends. If it's too easy to get in regularly, and one group will lock the zone out, you'll be struggling to get in with competing parties. Guess it depends on how many instances of the battlefield they'll allow.

[Economizer]

Can you Send word to the Dev team now to expect this. as awesome as no cool down timer is its going to cause issues. Maybe make its 1 -2 hour cool down to help ease the congestion atleast for the first week.

Or perhaps it could have a dynamic timer system. If there is no congestion, there is no cool down on entry. If there are so many groups in an area that people are fighting to get in, there will be a timer of one hour to reenter, with flexible amounts of time in between depending on how full the areas are.

[Runespider]

There is actually no cool down timer and as long as the area is free and you are in possession of the key-item needed to enter, you can repeat this content again and again.

"You cannot enter the area, it is currently in use" :D It'll be like trying to get into Shiryu during blunt for the first 3-4 months.

[Sparthos]

Always amusing to see 36 dead bodies plop out of a zone.

[Alhanelem]

I can see it Now only 1 group can be inside at a timeMore than one group can be in a battlefield at a time, and there are three battlefields.

[svengalis]

This system is just like WoE. Isn't the reason alot of people don't do Walk of Echoes is because of the one hour cool down? Now you guys are asking for a cool down on a new event???

[Sparthos]

The reason no one does WoE is because the loot is garbage.

[Kimble]

The reason no one does WoE is because the loot is garbage.

Not garbage. just very poor drop rates and not worth the effort since you actually need a lot of other people to do it with ti win.

[saevel]

The reason no one does WoE is because the loot is garbage.


That and the death-ga aggro / Link Bull Sh!t that happens.

[Sealdorie]

This event looks really fun! I'm excited that there is no cool down too. Sure it might be super crowded for the first few months, but after a while it should die down just like everything else. I'm also very happy about the point system, and just hope that the items you can get are at least on par with the items that are dropped within the event.

[Greatguardian]

This system is just like WoE. Isn't the reason alot of people don't do Walk of Echoes is because of the one hour cool down? Now you guys are asking for a cool down on a new event???

The reason I don't do WoE is because random people who wander into the zone have a 99% chance to be epic retards who don't care about the rest of the group's goals or strategy and just want to throw garudas at shit and link everything.

This is nothing like WoE.

[Krashport]

Read most of these posts "not all" sooo many, my bad if someone had this idea...

I noticed that "Legion" is based in 3 area/zones, My Idea is instead of a new point system why not make each "Legion" area/zone based on Conquest Points, Imperial Standing, Allied Notes. Could just add gear to those systems where we could use points on old/new stuff alike.

[Zaknafein]

Read most of these posts "not all" sooo many, my bad if someone had this idea...

I noticed that "Legion" is based in 3 area/zones, My Idea is instead of a new point system why not make each "Legion" area/zone based on Conquest Points, Imperial Standing, Allied Notes. Could just add gear to those systems where we could use points on old/new stuff alike.

They could, and should add new gear/items to the three existing point systems you mentioned. However it should have nothing to do with legion imo. For the same reason VW gear should not be purchasable with crour. Then people would just burn in w/e area to get the gear vs actually doing the events.

Any point systems for legion, and anything they chose to adopt for VW (hopefully) somewhere down the road should be specific to the event. Same as Einherjar works.

[Tile]

More than one group can be in a battlefield at a time, and there are three battlefields.

Wrong, there are atleast 4 already, you get a KI for the 3 starter Chamber wins, then you can do #4.

[FrankReynolds]

Dropped items/point items
The items you can receive via drops will differ from those that you can obtain by exchanging Legion points.

Please make all the items obtainable through points.

[Mahoro]

Please make all the items obtainable through points.

In the end, this doesn't surprise me. You might as well ask to buy E. Body through ampoules of therion ichor. It's just not gonna happen.

Legion points will probably be used to buy level 99 versions of perle/teal/aurore, and maybe some more random items like an equivalent to the Morgana's Choker or Omega Ring of Ein. You will have to fight the tough HNM's for the better stuff.

[wish12oz]

I like that there is no reentry timer on this event, but I am smart enough to see it can cause problems. I really hope you guys set it up so that when you arrive the leader trades the item for entry, and your alliance is then put in line for the event. That way groups that arrived first will enter first, and people coming out of the battlefields will be behind the others waiting to go in even if they trade the item to enter as soon as they get out. Let's not create another event where you have to spam trade an item to a door/click on a door repeatedly and hope you get lucky, or hope every one will voluntarily wait in a player made line behind others.


Please make all the items obtainable through points.

Also: This is what everyone I know wants to happen.


In the end, this doesn't surprise me. You might as well ask to buy E. Body through ampoules of therion ichor. It's just not gonna happen.

It would be perfectly fine if it happened, just make it cost 50k+ ichor, that way it takes 3~ months of doing Einherjar every 3 days to acquire it. Whats the problem with actually being able to work towards everything you want, and not having to rely on building your own groups/LS, or that you can find an LS with honest leadership?

EDIT: You also wouldn't have to worry about ZOMG DUMB RANDOM LUCK!

[Tile]

I want items that you can only get from the Bosses. that way even if someone has super points they still have a reason to go in, and it won't die as fast

[Mahoro]

It would be perfectly fine if it happened, just make it cost 50k+ ichor, that way it takes 3~ months of doing Einherjar every 3 days to acquire it. Whats the problem with actually being able to work towards everything you want, and not having to rely on building your own groups/LS, or that you can find an LS with honest leadership?

EDIT: You also wouldn't have to worry about ZOMG DUMB RANDOM LUCK!

Because of what Tile said above. Ok, so imagine you could buy E. Body with Ichor. Most people I know have tens/hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Ichor these days. Ein would be even MORE dead than it is these days if you could just buy every single one of Odin's drops because nobody would ever have a reason to go in. If you designed Legion the same way, the event would instantaneously have a shelf life. Imagine if you could buy every single Limbus drop via Ancient Beastcoins and never have to zone into the area again. Imagine if you could buy every single +2 item in Abyssea with cruor. Bam, dead events walking.

MMO devs have to have some way of ensuring people actually do the content and fight the toughest monsters (e.g., WoW raids). Moreover, the events they design need longevity. It would be nice if all MMO items were obtained through points, but this just isn't realistic. Imagine, if you will, a scenario in Legion where people discover a way to farm a few smaller mobs ad nauseum and amass Legion points hand over fist. The event would be DOA. Anybody who enters would just farm that same mob over and over and nobody would touch the tougher bosses (e.g., Paramount Botulus Rex).

While in theory there is nothing wrong with being able to work towards everything you want, and not having to rely on building your own groups/LS or finding a LS with honest leadership, in practice what you are really asking for is a console RPG, not an MMO.

[saevel]

Because of what Tile said above. Ok, so imagine you could buy E. Body with Ichor. Most people I know have tens/hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Ichor these days. Ein would be even MORE dead than it is these days if you could just buy every single one of Odin's drops because nobody would ever have a reason to go in. If you designed Legion the same way, the event would instantaneously have a shelf life. Imagine if you could buy every single Limbus drop via Ancient Beastcoins and never have to zone into the area again. Imagine if you could buy every single +2 item in Abyssea with cruor. Bam, dead events walking.

MMO devs have to have some way of ensuring people actually do the content and fight the toughest monsters (e.g., WoW raids). Moreover, the events they design need longevity. It would be nice if all MMO items were obtained through points, but this just isn't realistic. Imagine, if you will, a scenario in Legion where people discover a way to farm a few smaller mobs ad nauseum and amass Legion points hand over fist. The event would be DOA. Anybody who enters would just farm that same mob over and over and nobody would touch the tougher bosses (e.g., Paramount Botulus Rex).

While in theory there is nothing wrong with being able to work towards everything you want, and not having to rely on building your own groups/LS or finding a LS with honest leadership, in practice what you are really asking for is a console RPG, not an MMO.

Very very bad thinking. What you just asked for amounts to little more then a skinner's box. The devs attempting to condition and control your behavior through random rewarding of the food pellet from your random hitting of the lever.

Theron Ichor is annoying hard to obtain, ask anyone who's worked on a Mythic before. 50~100K Icor for an E.Body is about right.

Now what they should of done, and failed to do, was introduce multiple sources of HNM gear. They should of created more wyrms, more super NMs and gave them loot pools compromised of the other kings loot. Having a single source of an item that only appears every 72hrs is bad design. Most other MMO gamers laugh at the people who obsess over that, yes FFXI players seem to think it's a good idea. Likely due to the mental conditioning the games placed on you over the years. A points system is the same thing, it introduced a mechanism that you can obtain an item if you place enough work behind it, it removed the random number generator from the equation. Of course doing this will make the 95% happy but piss's in the Cheerios of the 5% who want to feel superior.

Now that being said, there should be slightly different versions of the item. Both of same stats, but the tier II has +1 higher stats, glows and only drops off the super boss. This way players have a mechanism to acquire the gear their after, and the 5% can feel *special*.

I can't say this enough, you do not use skinner's box techniques to force your players to go to events. It only works in a world where your players have no other options, the proverbial cage door being closed. The moment that door is open the rat will leave your electric cage of random food pellets and seek out their own food pellet source via alternatives.

[KigenAngelios]

Alrighty, I have a couple answers to some questions I am seeing in this thread.

Dropped items/point items
The items you can receive via drops will differ from those that you can obtain by exchanging Legion points. Apologies if it was misconstrued from previous posts that they would be the same items. Essentially even if you lose a lotting battle to obtain an item, by participating in the battle and saving up points you can get a reward.


I just need to say this is a very poor design decision. I was actually really excited for this content when I thought everything was practically equalized (though I would expect the LP items to cost way more in propotion.) I'm not a fan of a chance of a chance of an item (like anything in Bhaflau Remnants) especially in content that will essentially require 18+ people.

To the DEVs, please do as camate's original post says and have it so the drops and the legion point items are the same!

[wish12oz]

Because of what Tile said above. Ok, so imagine you could buy E. Body with Ichor. Most people I know have tens/hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Ichor these days. Ein would be even MORE dead than it is these days if you could just buy every single one of Odin's drops because nobody would ever have a reason to go in. If you designed Legion the same way, the event would instantaneously have a shelf life. Imagine if you could buy every single Limbus drop via Ancient Beastcoins and never have to zone into the area again. Imagine if you could buy every single +2 item in Abyssea with cruor. Bam, dead events walking.

MMO devs have to have some way of ensuring people actually do the content and fight the toughest monsters (e.g., WoW raids). Moreover, the events they design need longevity. It would be nice if all MMO items were obtained through points, but this just isn't realistic. Imagine, if you will, a scenario in Legion where people discover a way to farm a few smaller mobs ad nauseum and amass Legion points hand over fist. The event would be DOA. Anybody who enters would just farm that same mob over and over and nobody would touch the tougher bosses (e.g., Paramount Botulus Rex).

While in theory there is nothing wrong with being able to work towards everything you want, and not having to rely on building your own groups/LS or finding a LS with honest leadership, in practice what you are really asking for is a console RPG, not an MMO.

The solution to your problem is simple, add LOTS of good items, and create a way to make gil from it or something else useful. Lets use einherjar as an example again, lets say you're a WAR, you're gonna need e body, v helm, maybe v body, maybe shadow breastplate too. That's 4 items for 1 job, and doesn't get into being a completionist! Then you're going to need more e and p abjurations to tatter to augment your adaberk and shadow breastplate. After you get all this stuff, you can continue to do the event to get e/p/whatever abjurations to tatter and sell to make gil on.

This is a simple solution and makes the event worth doing basically forever, and by basically forever I mean until the gear from it is outdated by new gear. Everyone is always going to level new jobs and want new stuff for them. And using the earlier figure of 3 months to get e body abjuration, those 4 items alone are going to take you at least a year to acquire if you don't get them as drops. I think that's more then enough.

[Mahoro]

Very very bad thinking. What you just asked for amounts to little more then a skinner's box. The devs attempting to condition and control your behavior through random rewarding of the food pellet from your random hitting of the lever.



I didn't "ask" for it. I stated the reality of the game we play, and countless other MMO's and web-based games. To be fair, you (and I) have zero information regarding the drop rates of Legion HNM's, so perhaps the system is less Skinnerian than most. I merely stated SE's objective is to have people DO the content, beat the actual bosses, and in so doing give the content a degree of longevity.

Frankly Saevel, your post contains some pretty wild assumptions regarding mental conditioning and superiority complexes that I can say with certainty do not apply to me. I think the loot systems in some of FFXI's events are quite egregious. I am by no means an advocate of the types of drop rates VW enjoys, and I would certainly not want Legion to contain the same. What I AM an advocate of is doing the content, taking on the event's challenges (e.g., Odin at level 75), and walking away with the best rewards on a "reasonable" timetable. For example, I am a huge advocate of Abyssea "drop rates," where even the rarest stuff has about a 25-50% drop rate if you bring blue/yellow procs.

I wouldn't expect something like an E. Body to have a 100% drop rate from Odin. However, I am fine with the fact that Odin drops it and that you cannot get it from Therion Ichor, because it is a suitable reward for beating something like Odin. Are you advocating to have every single Abyssea drop purchased with cruor? When do the Skinnerian assumptions end and simple gameplay begins?


The solution to your problem is simple, add LOTS of good items, and create a way to make gil from it or something else useful. Lets use einherjar as an example again, lets say you're a WAR, you're gonna need e body, v helm, maybe v body, maybe shadow breastplate too. That's 4 items for 1 job, and doesn't get into being a completionist! Then you're going to need more e and p abjurations to tatter to augment your adaberk and shadow breastplate. After you get all this stuff, you can continue to do the event to get e/p/whatever abjurations to tatter and sell to make gil on.

This is a simple solution and makes the event worth doing basically forever, and by basically forever I mean until the gear from it is outdated by new gear. Everyone is always going to level new jobs and want new stuff for them. And using the earlier figure of 3 months to get e body abjuration, those 4 items alone are going to take you at least a year to acquire if you don't get them as drops. I think that's more then enough.

I'd say a better solution to my problem is to have reasonable drop rates from Legion HNM's. See discussion above.

[Runespider]

Square love random too much to ever adopt anything sensible, Random number generator will reign supreme till the end of days in a SE MMO.

[FrankReynolds]

It's really simple. let's say the devs want the item to have a %5 drop rate from legion. So the average player has to do 20 runs to get X item. They can implement even higher point requirements. So that the item that takes 20 runs avg. to get can also be bought with the number of legion points acquired for say 100 runs. That way the incredibly unlucky guy who can't seem to get the drop no matter how hard he tries knows that eventually he will be able to get it through hard work.

Making it a random drop doesn't mean that people are not going to stop doing the event when they get their drop. I don't know anyone who got ebody from einherjar, and then kept doing it because they wanted a second one.

They did it because they needed DKP for other events. IE. If you show up for all these legion events, you get points that go towards having the LS help build relics etc for you. Or because they needed ichor for items that don't drop from the NMs (this could still work), or they needed ichor for mythics.

If they make some of the really good / hard to get drops sell-able, then people will never stop doing it.

[wish12oz]

I'd say a better solution to my problem is to have reasonable drop rates from Legion HNM's. See discussion above.

Reasonable drop rates would make the content outdated faster then my suggestion.....


It's really simple. let's say the devs want the item to have a %5 drop rate from legion. So the average player has to do 20 runs to get X item. They can implement even higher point requirements. So that the item that takes 20 runs avg. to get can also be bought with the number of legion points acquired for say 100 runs. That way the incredibly unlucky guy who can't seem to get the drop no matter how hard he tries knows that eventually he will be able to get it through hard work.

I've been this person, and it sucks a lot.

[Mahoro]

Well if the choices are "Legion HNM has 0.01% drop rate on X item" and "X item can be purchased for 100,000 Legion points," I'd choose the latter too. So I just hope the devs increase the drop rates over stuff like VW bodies, which is just egregious.

[Mahoro]

Reasonable drop rates would make the content outdated faster then my suggestion.....


Then they better have a varied amount of good items, yeah? Remember, I am not an advocate of having us farm Legion for years at 0.0001% drop rates. I AM an advocate of doing the content, beating the toughest challenges, and walking away with the best rewards on a reasonable timetable. I am fine with not having E. Body purchasable through Ichor, and instead having it drop from the toughest boss of Ein. I am fine with not having Zelus Tiara purchasable through cruor, and instead having it drop from (one of) the toughest mobs in Abyssea. Thus, I am fine with having the best rewards drop from Legion HNM's so that people actually do the event.

[FrankReynolds]

Then they better have a varied amount of good items, yeah? Remember, I am not an advocate of having us farm Legion for years at 0.0001% drop rates. I AM an advocate of doing the content, beating the toughest challenges, and walking away with the best rewards on a reasonable timetable. I am fine with not having E. Body purchasable through Ichor, and instead having it drop from the toughest boss of Ein. I am fine with not having Zelus Tiara purchasable through cruor, and instead having it drop from (one of) the toughest mobs in Abyssea. Thus, I am fine with having the best rewards drop from Legion HNM's so that people actually do the event.

What's wrong with making it purchasable with points from the toughest HNM in legion? You still have to kill stuff, you just don't get subjected to completely random drop rates.

[Mahoro]

What's wrong with making it purchasable with points from the toughest HNM in legion? You still have to kill stuff, you just don't get subjected to completely random drop rates.

Nothing, if people actually kill the toughest HNM to get said points. But with the system as it stands right now, points are available from any mob.

[wish12oz]

Nothing, if people actually kill the toughest HNM to get said points. But with the system as it stands right now, points are available from any mob.

So if they just make harder mobs give more points you'll have no objections?

[Zaknafein]

The rare drops should be obtained by defeating the most gnarly of the NM's.

Point systems are great, and people should be able to get something decent for their efforts. Effort to reward ratio, and all that. However, there still needs to be some top of the line rewards available only to those who actually succeed at the highest level of difficulty. Just farming incessantly lower tiers, or only making it through so many targets in the 30 mins repeatedly should not allow you to grind your way to everything.

[Arcon]

So if they just make harder mobs give more points you'll have no objections?

Wouldn't be the same. To you, maybe, achieving something great and investing a lot of time are the same. To me it couldn't ever be. I think no amount of trash-mob grinding should be able to give you HNM drop items. A point-based solution would be for tougher NMs to give different kinds of points, so you can't take the "easy way" out.

[wish12oz]

Wouldn't be the same. To you, maybe, achieving something great and investing a lot of time are the same. To me it couldn't ever be. I think no amount of trash-mob grinding should be able to give you HNM drop items. A point-based solution would be for tougher NMs to give different kinds of points, so you can't take the "easy way" out.

So add a qualification to the items, where they can only be bought if you have killed the monster that would normally drop them, and that problem would be solved.

I think you guys are looking at this all wrong. The idea is simply to give people the ability to obtain the items they want from the event, no matter how screwed they get on drop rates/lots/LS leadership, as long as they go do the event a lot. There's nothing wrong with that and it would be a good thing if implemented smartly.

[saevel]

I didn't "ask" for it. I stated the reality of the game we play, and countless other MMO's and web-based games. To be fair, you (and I) have zero information regarding the drop rates of Legion HNM's, so perhaps the system is less Skinnerian than most. I merely stated SE's objective is to have people DO the content, beat the actual bosses, and in so doing give the content a degree of longevity.

Frankly Saevel, your post contains some pretty wild assumptions regarding mental conditioning and superiority complexes that I can say with certainty do not apply to me. I think the loot systems in some of FFXI's events are quite egregious. I am by no means an advocate of the types of drop rates VW enjoys, and I would certainly not want Legion to contain the same. What I AM an advocate of is doing the content, taking on the event's challenges (e.g., Odin at level 75), and walking away with the best rewards on a "reasonable" timetable. For example, I am a huge advocate of Abyssea "drop rates," where even the rarest stuff has about a 25-50% drop rate if you bring blue/yellow procs.

I wouldn't expect something like an E. Body to have a 100% drop rate from Odin. However, I am fine with the fact that Odin drops it and that you cannot get it from Therion Ichor, because it is a suitable reward for beating something like Odin. Are you advocating to have every single Abyssea drop purchased with cruor? When do the Skinnerian assumptions end and simple gameplay begins?



I'd say a better solution to my problem is to have reasonable drop rates from Legion HNM's. See discussion above.

Then you might want to go open some books, or use google and learn what a Skinner Box is and who Dr. Skinner was. His research and invention (if it could be called that) of that box allowed many other behavioral scientists to do research. There have been many thesis's and phD's based on similar studies concerning constant vs variable reward schedules (basically drop rates) and their effects on animals. Many of this work has since been studied by game studios and used as research for how they design their games. Remember, their not there to make you happy, their goal is to make you pay as much as possible for as long as possible for as little content as possible. To do this they have resorted to the same mechanics that electronic slot machine designers have resorted to, a variable schedule reward system.

I'll share with you two studies done. First involved a skinner's box and a rat with food pellets. Now they tried several different programs, first being that hit the lever and a food pellet would drop (reward), the pellet was 100%. At first the rat would hit it as quick as it could, but quickly it learned that it could always get pellets. The rat then stopped hitting the lever and would only hit it when it was hungry. Next they changed it so that after a set number of press's the food would drop. At first the rat hit the lever as fast as it could, soon it learned the number of press's required to get it's reward and afterwards would only hit it the number of times required to get food when it was hungry. Finally they tried a variable reward schedule, their was a chance the food would drop every time the lever was hit. They found that the rat would constantly hit the lever, and due to there being no discernible pattern, the rat never stopped hitting the lever, even if there was lots of food in the cage. They found the lower the chance of the food dropping the more frantic the rat become at hitting that lever. Thus by controlling the chance of food hitting they could control the rats behavior and actions, forcing the rat to do what they wanted it to do (hit the lever).

Sound familiar, sound like a game we all know and love / hate? Sound like a certain event that we're currently forced to do for gear. Application of that study has been done on humans, especially those involved with gambling addiction. The addiction comes from the irrational part of the brain that desires a positive reward response. They keep playing and paying because "the next one might win".

Another study, this one involving two birds in a cage with a lever and pellet dispenser. First bird had it's foot tied to the bar, it couldn't reach neither the lever nor the food pellets. Second bird was free to move around and quickly discovered that if it hit the lever, food would drop. The researchers then stopped having the pellets drop. The second bird kept hitting the lever but no food would drop. It's reaction was curious, instead of stopping hitting the lever or just flying around, it attacked the 2nd bird who was tied down. With an expected reward removed, the bird attacked the nearest recognizable thing thinking it was responsible. Study concluded that when an expected reward is not given that the animal (or human / player) would resort to blaming easy to identify sources. Also concluded that removal of expected reward is considered an aggressive action and creatures will respond to it as though they had been attacked.

Usage of these behavioral models on humans in video games is considered unethical by the medical community. Humans are not supposed to be treated as rats in a cage hitting a lever to get food pellets. Developers should not create content specifically designed to attract and attack the irrational reward center of human beings in an attempt to get them addicted to hitting that lever.

[Ravenmore]

The rare drops should be obtained by defeating the most gnarly of the NM's.

Point systems are great, and people should be able to get something decent for their efforts. Effort to reward ratio, and all that. However, there still needs to be some top of the line rewards available only to those who actually succeed at the highest level of difficulty. Just farming incessantly lower tiers, or only making it through so many targets in the 30 mins repeatedly should not allow you to grind your way to everything.

Wake up the grind is what the game already does, what it has always done.

[Zaknafein]

Wake up the grind is what the game already does, what it has always done.

Einherjar which is what for all intents, and purposes Legion is based on was not grindy. It was one of the few events where skill mattered. Where the skill of the linkshell you did the event with directly related to your success rate. Also it allowed smaller groups to accomplish the same goals other shells needed more members to equal. As far as events went at 75 cap it was by far the most enjoyable imo.

PS: If you're so keen on grinds go grind out your limit break, and get to 99.

[FrankReynolds]

Einherjar which is what for all intents, and purposes Legion is based on was not grindy. It was one of the few events where skill mattered. Where the skill of the linkshell you did the event with directly related to your success rate. Also it allowed smaller groups to accomplish the same goals other shells needed more members to equal. As far as events went at 75 cap it was by far the most enjoyable imo.

PS: If you're so keen on grinds go grind out your limit break, and get to 99.

It's already been said, but "just make it so that a person cannot buy the item with points unless they have defeated the monster that it drops from.".

Learning how to defeat and defeating the monster == Skilll / overcoming challenge.
Defeating the monster 1,000 times and never getting the drop == Luck based grind.
Buying the item with points from a monster that you have defeated repeatedly == fair reward system.

In my experience, einherjar allowed the shells with the most mule accounts to do the final mob more often. after 1,000 runs, the only real challenge is getting enough people to actually show up every week so that you can kill the boss. Showing up for einherjar for months / years, waiting on a drop while you accumulate thousands of useless ichor is an incredibly "grindy" thing to do. Especially when you consider that they made the zone out in the middle of nowhere, so that gathering people together took twice as long as the actual event.

There is no reason why 1 person should be able to do content 1 time, and walk away with an item that another person has tried for 200 times. The above posters explanation about skinner box is absolute fact. Low percentage drop rates are just flat out inhumane.

[Mahoro]

Then you might want to go open some books, or use google and learn what a Skinner Box is and who Dr. Skinner was. His research and invention (if it could be called that) of that box allowed many other behavioral scientists to do research.

[studies, etc.]


I actually do know what a Skinner Box is, thanks in no small part to years of reading FFXI forums. Not to mention previous posts on these official forums in the last year by people like yourself and Runespider. But thanks for the Googledump. I also imagine you are familiar with the concept that an operant conditioning chamber is essentially created by ANY repeatable game. The more nefarious aspects of operant conditioning come when rewards are so randomized that you are forced to carry out the behavior thousands of times with no reward. As I have said repeatedly in this thread (and your post makes me think you may not have read the rest of my posts), I am not OK with 0.001% randomization such as one finds in VW. I have advocated for a more reasonable drop rate on par with those we enjoyed in Abyssea, where even the rarest items were 25+% drop if you brought proper procs. Sure, this results in people capping out on items that much quicker (many people in my LS now have everything they need from Abyssea after only one year), but ultimately the hope is that by the time THAT happens, the devs will have created more content.

In the final analysis though, while the Skinner box concept can explain part of what you do in the game, it doesn't explain why you started to play the game in the first place. Unlike the rat, nobody forces you into that Skinner Box. You enter it voluntarily, because an MMORPG is a form of entertainment. We have disposable time, gaming is a hobby, and we play MMO's because we find the content and people interesting. Ultimately, if Legion is a fun activity I can do with my LS where people get stuff at a reasonable pace and members are happy, I will not mind "grinding" it over the course of the coming months. Nevertheless, I stand by my position that I'd rather have the "best" rewards come from actually defeating the hardest mobs in the event rather than mindlessly grinding out trash mobs for Legion points in the name of "anti-Skinnerianism." Seems like some folks who posted above agree with me.

[Ravenmore]

Einherjar which is what for all intents, and purposes Legion is based on was not grindy. It was one of the few events where skill mattered. Where the skill of the linkshell you did the event with directly related to your success rate. Also it allowed smaller groups to accomplish the same goals other shells needed more members to equal. As far as events went at 75 cap it was by far the most enjoyable imo.

PS: If you're so keen on grinds go grind out your limit break, and get to 99.

How aboout not going by what the site says about my level. FYI I got 4 jobs at 99 blu is one of them. I never Log out of the site so that might be why My info doesn't update idk. Back to the point how is grinding VWNM working for you. Thats the same thing just at the end of the day you can still not get crap for your effort.

Yep logged out logged back in and looky there 99 in 5 mins.

[Kimble]

Being able to beat an HNM 100 times doesnt make you more skilled. Honestly, making a good item from an HNM come from getting points (and requiring you to have killed said NM at least once) isn't bad at all. At least it gives you a goal you can reach and still means you have to have killed said NM.

[Zaknafein]

Yep logged out logged back in and looky there 99 in 5 mins.
Congratulations!

At what point have I ever said VW loot distribution is functioning properly. It is in fact that complete antithesis of how the game should work. Instead of rewarding competent groups, and players the random number generator rewards anyone. Just for the hell of it.

[Ravenmore]

Congratulations!

At what point have I ever said VW loot distribution is functioning properly. It is in fact that complete antithesis of how the game should work. Instead of rewarding competent groups, and players the random number generator rewards anyone. Just for the hell of it.

It would still be a grind. Anything that doesn't have a 100% drop would turn into a grind after the first kill. At least with the point system no one would be at the mercy of a single group. Its still a grind no matter how you slice it. The way Camate had worded it to start sounded like the best all around with you could still get the item from it randomly droping or getting it from points if you got screwed.

[Zaknafein]

Like I said earlier. Should all people participating in the event get points to use toward purchasing gear above, and beyond drops during each run? Hell yeah! Should any Joe schmoe be able to grind away endlessly to purchase even the most elite gear that is dropped in Legion? No way. The points system should should provide access to good gear/items to account for the effort to reward ratio. Same as Abyssea provided casual players with with great gear as in af3.

The highest tier gear in legion should go to groups who excel, and defeat the most challenging of fights at the highest level of difficulty.

This clarification you people are whining about from the Community reps is only common sense, and you are blowing it out of proportion.

[Kimble]

Like I said earlier. Should all people participating in the event get points to use toward purchasing gear above, and beyond drops during each run? Hell yeah! Should any Joe schmoe be able to grind away endlessly to purchase even the most elite gear that is dropped in Legion? No way. The points system should should provide access to good gear/items to account for the effort to reward ratio. Same as Abyssea provided casual players with with great gear as in af3.

The highest tier gear in legion should go to groups who excel, and defeat the most challenging of fights at the highest level of difficulty.

This clarification you people are whining about from the Community reps is only common sense, and you are blowing it out of proportion.

And yet again, we said "if you want to give gear to people who are able to beat the hardest of the NMs, just make it so they have to have the points and have to have had beaten the NM that drops it as well"

Seems like a good middle ground. Don't know why anyone would argue against that.

[Ravenmore]

Because there would be no high tier NM that only the select few could beat. Just like how Kirin was once the hardest NM in the game. Once people learn the trick its easy for other groups to copy and repeat.

[Zaknafein]

A trophy system could work like that. Like the one used in Abyssea. Rank 1-5. The highest most difficult NM's giving everyone a 1st tier trophy when defeated. Only difference would be you can only trade trophies down. That would prevent spamming, and trading up to get T1 trophies. I would have no issue with that sort of model.

[FrankReynolds]

A trophy system could work like that. Like the one used in Abyssea. Rank 1-5. The highest most difficult NM's giving everyone a 1st tier trophy when defeated. Only difference would be you can only trade trophies down. That would prevent spamming, and trading up to get T1 trophies. I would have no issue with that sort of model.

Fair enough. That sounds like a great system.

[Zaknafein]

Fair enough. That sounds like a great system.

Make it so #1 "Engage!"

[Kimble]

why did you only quote, engage? lol

[saevel]

I actually do know what a Skinner Box is, thanks in no small part to years of reading FFXI forums. Not to mention previous posts on these official forums in the last year by people like yourself and Runespider. But thanks for the Googledump. I also imagine you are familiar with the concept that an operant conditioning chamber is essentially created by ANY repeatable game. The more nefarious aspects of operant conditioning come when rewards are so randomized that you are forced to carry out the behavior thousands of times with no reward. As I have said repeatedly in this thread (and your post makes me think you may not have read the rest of my posts), I am not OK with 0.001% randomization such as one finds in VW. I have advocated for a more reasonable drop rate on par with those we enjoyed in Abyssea, where even the rarest items were 25+% drop if you brought proper procs. Sure, this results in people capping out on items that much quicker (many people in my LS now have everything they need from Abyssea after only one year), but ultimately the hope is that by the time THAT happens, the devs will have created more content.

In the final analysis though, while the Skinner box concept can explain part of what you do in the game, it doesn't explain why you started to play the game in the first place. Unlike the rat, nobody forces you into that Skinner Box. You enter it voluntarily, because an MMORPG is a form of entertainment. We have disposable time, gaming is a hobby, and we play MMO's because we find the content and people interesting. Ultimately, if Legion is a fun activity I can do with my LS where people get stuff at a reasonable pace and members are happy, I will not mind "grinding" it over the course of the coming months. Nevertheless, I stand by my position that I'd rather have the "best" rewards come from actually defeating the hardest mobs in the event rather than mindlessly grinding out trash mobs for Legion points in the name of "anti-Skinnerianism." Seems like some folks who posted above agree with me.

You play the game for enjoyment, just like you go to the casino. It's what happens next that is questionable.

The difference between a skinners box and regular random rewards is how the developers designed it. Abyssea is a good example of a non skinner system. The drops are random, but the developers didn't design it to keep you hitting a lever frantically while trying to get your daily fix of dopamine (the chemical responsible for the reward feeling in the brain). Things were random, but the system wasn't' designed as a box. Voidwatch on the other hand is obviously designed to make the player keep doing what is essentially no content for long periods with no incentive other then the gamblers fallacy of "its gotta drop eventually, maybe the next one". It's designed purposely to treat you like a rat. The inability to share your loot is the key difference between those two.

I learned these things years ago, and not from google but from a MS article about gaming studios using behavioral researchers in MMO's to design their content reward systems so as to create optimum addiction quality. The companies are actually doing studies to figure out the lowest possible reward rates to keep you playing the longest while utilizing the least amount of company resources. There was a debate between production companies and the medical community on whether or not it was ethical to conduct and utilize skinneresque studies on human players with the objective of making them more addicted to the video game. The conclusion was that the medical community considers it unethical to deliberately design something to create addiction and to treat humans as lab rats. If you had actually read my post instead of hitting reply after the first three sentences you'd know this.

Game companies are still using skinner's techniques to maximize profits, their just not publishing the fact that they do it. Their analyzing statistical data and determining reward rates (aka drop rates) not based on player feedback but based on what their numbers say is the best rate to keep players doing the event. If they make it below a certain amount then the players will get angry and quit (the bird in the 2nd case study), if they make it too high the players will only do it when they need something (the 1st case study). So by making the drops artificially low yet creating a method for the player to feel they have some control over it (the lever smashing, or lights production) they can create an addictive system that has the players constantly coming back in an attempt to get their rewards but not actually getting those rewards.

I'm also fairly positive they have a check in place that if you already have an item, there is a significantly greater chance of it appearing in the chest. Statistically speaking, its not possible for a multitude of people to go 0/200 on Akvan's body or a Toci's harness yet other people to get three or four without that same period. Yet somehow we get people on insane numbers of attempts which indicate a drop rate of 0.5 ~ 0.8%, yet those who already have it will get it again and again which would indicate a drop rate in the ~5% range. It's a clever system designed to give the illusion of a reward while not actually giving a reward, like making the random food pellet drop in a container outside of reach of the rat.

[Tile]

A trophy system could work like that. Like the one used in Abyssea. Rank 1-5. The highest most difficult NM's giving everyone a 1st tier trophy when defeated. Only difference would be you can only trade trophies down. That would prevent spamming, and trading up to get T1 trophies. I would have no issue with that sort of model.

this sounds pretty good. each item would then cost a different amount of trophies, bodies and weapons would cost the most. while the random rings etc. would only take afew trophies

[Mahoro]

If you had actually read my post instead of hitting reply after the first three sentences you'd know this.

Again, I marvel at the assumptions and condescension rife in your posts. Just because I only quote the first part of your post in an effort to minimize wall o' text for other readers on this forum as a COURTESY, does not mean I did not read your post and merely hit Reply after the first three sentences. For the record, look up. I did it again.

I actually did read your post. However, I did not wish to enter into a debate over the ethical qualities of operant conditioning chambers and video game addiction, thus I did not address the remainder of your post. What I WILL say on that issue is that our society has not yet recognized gaming addiction to be on the same tier as gambling addiction or chemical-induced addiction, which have quantifiable and severe social impacts. Maybe the tides of societal mores will change as we get more and more stories of kids collapsing from exhaustion after 24-hour marathon sessions. Who knows?

On a side note, it's important to recognize that gaming isn't addictive in the technical sense of the term. Some people with addictive personalities are more susceptible to becoming addicted to gaming, gambling, etc. Some people are probably addicted to VW in the hopes of having that Toci's drop "on the next one, I can feel it." Just as some blue-haired grannies in Atlantic City are more susceptible to pulling the lever of that slot machine because they will win "on the next one, I can feel it." Or someone betting the lottery Quickpick because "my lucky number will come, I just know it." I would probably argue that the blue-haired granny is being damaged more from a financial and social standpoint (losing her money, isolated since slots are a solitary activity, probably ordering drinks from the casino waitress, etc.). Yet the casinos or the lottery commission have not really been taken to task for their ethical transgressions because they derive revenue for the state. Ultimately, we as a society seem to be fine with having a certain amount of tempting activities out there, and leave it to the individual/social workers/support groups/clinics to come to grips with their consequences.

In any event, to get back on topic, I note that yet again you are creating a strawman argument by continually referring to Voidwatch drop rates in your responses to me, which I have expressly said REPEATEDLY in this thread that I am not in support of with respect to Legion. As I have said, I would support Abyssea-type drop rates, which you admit is a "non-Skinner system" (which is a bit of a misnomer since it still contains facets of an operant conditioning chamber). Although I'm sure the devs will not use Abyssea drop rates again since they probably think people got their items too fast and abandoned the content, so I guess I would be fine with slightly lower drop rates than those (15-20%?).

[Mirabelle]

Someday I'd like them to code into VW a system whereby the more times you've killed an NM the more likely his rare drops will fall. This would mitigate against the poor sap that is statistics misfortunate one.

Say a random drop is set at 1%. After 25 kills it goes to 5%. After 50 kills it goes to 20 %. After 75 kills it raises to 50%. After 100 kills it becomes a 100% drop. That way in the end you do no worse than 1/100 for something that has a 1% drop rate to start. And the odds are you'll get that item somewhere in the 30-40 kill range if you have even average luck.

[Ravenmore]

Someday I'd like them to code into VW a system whereby the more times you've killed an NM the more likely his rare drops will fall. This would mitigate against the poor sap that is statistics misfortunate one.

Say a random drop is set at 1%. After 25 kills it goes to 5%. After 50 kills it goes to 20 %. After 75 kills it raises to 50%. After 100 kills it becomes a 100% drop. That way in the end you do no worse than 1/100 for something that has a 1% drop rate to start. And the odds are you'll get that item somewhere in the 30-40 kill range if you have even average luck.

While this is a great idea Rune has pointed it out many times they found a event they can milk with little effort on their part. Any adjustments to drops won't come till the event is bearly done. Really look how much and fast voiddust moves on the AH, the devs won't mess with it.

[Camate]

Heya everyone :)

I got word back from the development team about the point system.

It's as most have been saying, you will receive points for every monster that you defeat. Regardless of how many players are participating, everyone will receive the same amount of points and the amount gained will not change based on difficulty (18 person/ 36 person).

[saevel]

Again, I marvel at the assumptions and condescension rife in your posts. Just because I only quote the first part of your post in an effort to minimize wall o' text for other readers on this forum as a COURTESY, does not mean I did not read your post and merely hit Reply after the first three sentences. For the record, look up. I did it again.

I actually did read your post. However, I did not wish to enter into a debate over the ethical qualities of operant conditioning chambers and video game addiction, thus I did not address the remainder of your post. What I WILL say on that issue is that our society has not yet recognized gaming addiction to be on the same tier as gambling addiction or chemical-induced addiction, which have quantifiable and severe social impacts. Maybe the tides of societal mores will change as we get more and more stories of kids collapsing from exhaustion after 24-hour marathon sessions. Who knows?

On a side note, it's important to recognize that gaming isn't addictive in the technical sense of the term. Some people with addictive personalities are more susceptible to becoming addicted to gaming, gambling, etc. Some people are probably addicted to VW in the hopes of having that Toci's drop "on the next one, I can feel it." Just as some blue-haired grannies in Atlantic City are more susceptible to pulling the lever of that slot machine because they will win "on the next one, I can feel it." Or someone betting the lottery Quickpick because "my lucky number will come, I just know it." I would probably argue that the blue-haired granny is being damaged more from a financial and social standpoint (losing her money, isolated since slots are a solitary activity, probably ordering drinks from the casino waitress, etc.). Yet the casinos or the lottery commission have not really been taken to task for their ethical transgressions because they derive revenue for the state. Ultimately, we as a society seem to be fine with having a certain amount of tempting activities out there, and leave it to the individual/social workers/support groups/clinics to come to grips with their consequences.

In any event, to get back on topic, I note that yet again you are creating a strawman argument by continually referring to Voidwatch drop rates in your responses to me, which I have expressly said REPEATEDLY in this thread that I am not in support of with respect to Legion. As I have said, I would support Abyssea-type drop rates, which you admit is a "non-Skinner system" (which is a bit of a misnomer since it still contains facets of an operant conditioning chamber). Although I'm sure the devs will not use Abyssea drop rates again since they probably think people got their items too fast and abandoned the content, so I guess I would be fine with slightly lower drop rates than those (15-20%?).

I haven't insulted you a single time, only mentioned that if you didn't understand who Dr. Skinner was you should go look up his work. All you did was look up a single wiki article, you didn't actually look up the various reward schedules nor the results of those studies and how their being applied in MMO's. When you call people arrogant you might want to look in a mirror nearby first, and wait an hour or two before pounding keys.

Video Game addiction ~is~ a recognized medical condition now. It doesn't form a chemical addiction but instead forms a behavioral addiction in the same manor gambling does. There are some very bad "F2P" games out there that capitalize on this and have found optimal ways to extract revenue from a human beings irrational desire for a reward. In other words, the game is technically "free" but to get a better chance at a reward you must spend real money, the ratio's are optimized in such a way that players can and will spend upwards of $100 USD a month on these games.

Voidwatch is blatant application of behavioral science to a video game with the intention of optimizing content endurance.

Sound so nicer when you use business terms. It's just using an artificially low drop rate to ensure a lower developer budget for higher profit margins. Especially as there is very little to do in FFXI other then VWNM and Abyssea (for those still working on things).

These methods in and of themselves are not bad, but its the associated reasons behind them that are unethical. Humans are not rats and shouldn't be conditioned in video games. Its identical to the tobacco companies targeting teens for advertisements and altering the content of their product to make them more addictive.

[Kalilla]

What about the quality of items?

Will they be lower quality than what you can receive inside? Will they be entirely different? Will you be able to use the items you buy points with for crafts or synergy?

[Mahoro]

I haven't insulted you a single time, only mentioned that if you didn't understand who Dr. Skinner was you should go look up his work. All you did was look up a single wiki article, you didn't actually look up the various reward schedules nor the results of those studies and how their being applied in MMO's. When you call people arrogant you might want to look in a mirror nearby first, and wait an hour or two before pounding keys.



Never said you insulted me, just made assumptions about my knowledge base (which you are doing again now) and accused me in a condescending tone of not reading stuff but hitting Reply after three sentences, in effect having the attention span of Joe Average Forum Poster. Also never mentioned one word about Wiki, or that I've only read "a single wiki article", so at this point you might be confusing me with someone else (at best) or making more random assumptions (at worst). Notwithstanding all of this, you do make some good points about video game addiction, which at this point we should probably leave to the wayside for fear of derailing this thread further.

[Glamdring]

Heya everyone :)

I got word back from the development team about the point system.

It's as most have been saying, you will receive points for every monster that you defeat. Regardless of how many players are participating, everyone will receive the same amount of points and the amount gained will not change based on difficulty (18 person/ 36 person).

so it's leech-friendly, good to know, bad to play, got it.

[Alhanelem]

Video Game addiction ~is~ a recognized medical condition nowBehavioral, and Chemical Addiction are recognized medical conditions. Not Video Game, or <insert anything else here>. What you get addicted to doesn't matter much, the core of the treatment process is the same. You can become addicted to anything from video games to tiddly winks given the right conditions. MMOs in general promote certain behavioral patterns, the issue you are questioning is not specific to Voidwatch. It's part of any and every MMO as a whole.

All of this crap is really irrelevant to the topic at hand, though. Whether or not Voidwatch is designed to addict us to the game (as if people who have played the game long enough to be doing voidwatch aren't already addicted anyway) has nothing to do with why we don't like it. We don't like it because the reward level is so low that it actually prevents most of us from getting the proverbial carrot on the end of the stick. The tasty addicting nuggets are dispensed at too low a rate for people to get hooked in. I've only done a few VW fights, and while the fights themselves were kind of interesting, I have no real drive to stick with it because I don't see it as rewarding.

P.S. if you're going to lecture people on medical science, make sure you at least use spell check and then also verify that spellcheck corrected to the right word (manor, as in a house, vs manner, as in a method)

[Glamdring]

Will you be able to use the items you buy points with for crafts or synergy?

good god I hope not. There's enough whining on here already about busting your ass in ___ event only to get an ash log and a chocobo feather as it is. We really don't need another source.

[Greatguardian]

so it's leech-friendly, good to know, bad to play, got it.

1) Your gear is pretty leech-tier in its own right.

2) Your previous posts on this forum don't give me a much better impression of your "skill"

3) Don't invite leeches if you don't like them leeching.

4) This will probably mean that no one will invite you, so you may want to quit moaning while you're ahead.

[Alhanelem]

How is it "leech friendly" anyway? If not everyone in your party is performing to the best of their ability, everyone will get less points. "Leeching" will be far less rewarding than actually participating.

These are NMish monsters you'll be fighting. This isn't "Grind like abyssea and get rewarded for it."

[Tile]

it doesn't mean Leech friendly, what it means is that you might as well bring in as many people as you can if you after points cause you can kill and earn that much fast

[Babekeke]

They've made it 'Leech Friendly' because there's no way in hell that a RDM or a BRD is going to score as highly as a Ukon WAR. If they made the reward a contribution-based one, after a couple of runs where the WARs come out with 20k points and the BRD comes out with 1k and the healers come out with 5k, everyone would just bitch over who had to come mage and take longer to get their reward.
Maybe should have put a cap in where a player had to make a minimum of 20 WS, cures, buffs, enfeebles or whatever to reach cap, but I have no idea how difficult that would be to implement.

[Kristal]

Heya everyone :)

I got word back from the development team about the point system.

It's as most have been saying, you will receive points for every monster that you defeat. Regardless of how many players are participating, everyone will receive the same amount of points and the amount gained will not change based on difficulty (18 person/ 36 person).

Nice to see. Now hurry up with the content so I can buy an Animator +2 with the points :D

[Tile]

They've made it 'Leech Friendly' because there's no way in hell that a RDM or a BRD is going to score as highly as a Ukon WAR. If they made the reward a contribution-based one, after a couple of runs where the WARs come out with 20k points and the BRD comes out with 1k and the healers come out with 5k, everyone would just bitch over who had to come mage and take longer to get their reward.
Maybe should have put a cap in where a player had to make a minimum of 20 WS, cures, buffs, enfeebles or whatever to reach cap, but I have no idea how difficult that would be to implement.

guess im not as familiar with leeching as some people are. But im not planning on letting people in my run that are just going to afk. they try it and they getting a D2. as for someone paying and going in tio or somthing with there dual boxed whm. I say go ahead and let them, if they want to waste the gil and get hardly any returns no skin of my back.

[Seriha]

What about the quality of items?

Will they be lower quality than what you can receive inside? Will they be entirely different? Will you be able to use the items you buy points with for crafts or synergy?

It's been said the items the NMs drop inside will not be available from whatever vendor handles Legion points. As is, there are 3 equipment sets in the DATs that currently aren't in the live game, of which some believe they're going to be buyable with the Legion points.


Head: Attack+15 Haste+4% STR+7 Set: Haste+6%
Body: STR+10 DEX+8 Attack+10 Accuracy+10 Crit Rate+3% Set: Haste+6%
Hands: DEX+6 Attack+15 Haste+3% Set: Haste+6%
Legs: DEX+7 AGI+7 Attack+10 Evasion+5 Haste+2% Set: Haste+6%
Feet: STR+8 DEX+5 Enmity+4 Set: Haste+6%
96 WAR PLD DRK BST DRG

Head: STR+5 DEX+5 MND+5 Attack+10 Haste+5% Set: Crit Rate +5%
Body: DEX+6 AGI+6 MND+6 Acc+10 R.acc+10 Evasion+10 Haste+4% Set: Crit Rate +5%
Hands: STR+5 DEX+5 AGI+5 Double Attack+3% Set: Crit Rate +5%
Legs: STR+5 DEX+5 Store TP+5 Haste+3% Set: Crit Rate +5%
Feet: DEX+6 AGI+6 Evasion+5 Haste+2% Subtle Blow+5 Set: Crit Rate+5%
96 MNK RNG SAM NIN THF COR PUP DNC

Head: HP+30 STR+5 INT+8 MND+8 M.acc+3 Set: M.acc+5
Body: HP+40 MP+40 INT+10 MND+10 CHR+10 Cure Potency+5% MAB+5 Set: M.acc+5
Hands: MP+30 M.acc+7 Fast Cast+2 Enmity-4 Set: M.acc+5
Legs: INT+8 CHR+8 Summoning+6 MAB+3 Enmity-5 Set: M.acc+5
Feet: HP+25 MP+25 MND+9 CHR+9 MDB+5 Enmity-7 Set: M.acc+5
96 WHM BLM RDM BLU SMN BRD SCH

Not very impressive, I think, especially since you'll likely need to partake in a number of successful Legions to get a single piece. I'm rather underwhelmed by the mage set, personally.

[Babekeke]

guess im not as familiar with leeching as some people are. But im not planning on letting people in my run that are just going to afk. they try it and they getting a D2. as for someone paying and going in tio or somthing with there dual boxed whm. I say go ahead and let them, if they want to waste the gil and get hardly any returns no skin of my back.

There are people who have a whole alliance of accounts. They could happily enter and dual box a melee and a mage while their other 14 accounts sit out of the way accruing points for every run. If the items obtainable with points are saleable, they're £££$$$ in, or can just buy all items at once and trade them all to main char, since all 18 chars will accrue points at exactly the same rate.

[Kristal]

Not very impressive, I think, especially since you'll likely need to partake in a number of successful Legions to get a single piece. I'm rather underwhelmed by the mage set, personally.

PUP is missing on the mage set, so those items are probably placeholders. And looks like level-boosted perle/aurora/teal.

[saevel]

Never said you insulted me, just made assumptions about my knowledge base (which you are doing again now) and accused me in a condescending tone of not reading stuff but hitting Reply after three sentences, in effect having the attention span of Joe Average Forum Poster. Also never mentioned one word about Wiki, or that I've only read "a single wiki article", so at this point you might be confusing me with someone else (at best) or making more random assumptions (at worst). Notwithstanding all of this, you do make some good points about video game addiction, which at this point we should probably leave to the wayside for fear of derailing this thread further.

I am treating you with the measure that you've demonstrated. Firstly with your statement that making gear buy-able with points would in effect destroy the event. The rationale being that if gear was obtainable within a reasonable amount of time (point buyable is this) that it wouldn't last long enough and the developers would be required to work more. No matter how you twist your words, you were advocating a game company artificially extend the life of content via controlling with variable scheduled rewards, aka a skinners box. I told you this point blank and then gave you details and examples on exactly how that was a bad idea. You got your panties in a bunch and proceeded to attempt to cow me by goggling the details of what I posted and obtaining a cursory knowledge. Unfortunately for you I actually do know what I'm talking about as it was a small hobby of mine many years back. The remaining posts were you painting yourself into a corner while attempting to maintain dignity.

Your original argument that events based around variable scheduled rewards are a good thing because they artificially extend the life of content has been proven invalid. Some random reward systems are expected, even encouraged, but game designers using that as the primary means to attract and maintain participation constitutes an abuse of the irrational human reward system. Game content should have a high shelf life because it is enjoyable, not because it requires 200+ events per item to acquire your reward. The "fun" of the event has long worn off and it's been reduced to a grind fest, that's bad by the way.

I am in no way being condescending. If instead of trying to incite a war about who can act the wittiest, you put forth studies or valid arguments to counter those points I made I would of treated you like an intellectual.

[saevel]

It's been said the items the NMs drop inside will not be available from whatever vendor handles Legion points. As is, there are 3 equipment sets in the DATs that currently aren't in the live game, of which some believe they're going to be buyable with the Legion points.



Not very impressive, I think, especially since you'll likely need to partake in a number of successful Legions to get a single piece. I'm rather underwhelmed by the mage set, personally.

Ohh god not more "every mage" gear that ends up being absolute sh!t. You can already beat every piece of "every mage" gear with either Emp armor or AH acquirable gear.

It's absolute trash.

[Greatguardian]

There are people who have a whole alliance of accounts. They could happily enter and dual box a melee and a mage while their other 14 accounts sit out of the way accruing points for every run. If the items obtainable with points are saleable, they're £££$$$ in, or can just buy all items at once and trade them all to main char, since all 18 chars will accrue points at exactly the same rate.

Who gives a shit. If they're paying for 18 accounts, and setting up rigs capable of running them all at once, let them do whatever they want. It's their own problem if they're insistent on spending that much money on a game.

And good luck duo'ing these NMs with one mage and one melee.

[Eurell]

I am in no way being condescending. If instead of trying to incite a war about who can act the wittiest, you put forth studies or valid arguments to counter those points I made I would of treated you like an intellectual.

Just reading this thread now, and not choosing sides or anything lol, but just to clarify... this isn't condescending?

[Babekeke]

And good luck duo'ing these NMs with one mage and one melee.

People already managed it on the test server, killing 1-2 mobs before time out.

[FrankReynolds]

There are people who have a whole alliance of accounts. They could happily enter and dual box a melee and a mage while their other 14 accounts sit out of the way accruing points for every run. If the items obtainable with points are saleable, they're £££$$$ in, or can just buy all items at once and trade them all to main char, since all 18 chars will accrue points at exactly the same rate.

They would all accrue points, but they wouldn't accrue many. How many NMs can you really kill in 30 minutes, with only 2 people fighting?

EDIT: Just to clarify. If 2 people can kill 1-2, then 18 people can kill what? 15-20? So instead of getting points for 20 kills on one character, the guy gets points for @30 kills spread across 18 characters... I see very little benefit to doing it that way. That's really not much of an exploit.

[Greatguardian]

People already managed it on the test server, killing 1-2 mobs before time out.

Oh no, spending 360k to kill a whole two NMs.

What ever shall we do.

[Luvbunny]

Instead of having one person spend the 360k gil on one KI to be shared by many - it would be better to make us pay individually for 20-30k each time. This looks like it's going to be a closed event - instead of the open nature of VW and Walk of Echoes. Here is hoping that the gears will be a side grade alternative to the other gears from VW, WoE and Abyssea so that this will become optional. Seems like once you reach level 99, all you do is collecting gears in this game :)

[Mahoro]

I am treating you with the measure that you've demonstrated. Firstly with your statement that making gear buy-able with points would in effect destroy the event. The rationale being that if gear was obtainable within a reasonable amount of time (point buyable is this) that it wouldn't last long enough and the developers would be required to work more. No matter how you twist your words, you were advocating a game company artificially extend the life of content via controlling with variable scheduled rewards, aka a skinners box. I told you this point blank and then gave you details and examples on exactly how that was a bad idea. You got your panties in a bunch and proceeded to attempt to cow me by goggling the details of what I posted and obtaining a cursory knowledge. Unfortunately for you I actually do know what I'm talking about as it was a small hobby of mine many years back. The remaining posts were you painting yourself into a corner while attempting to maintain dignity.

No, my remaining posts were advocating an Abyssea-type drop rate, which you expressly said was a non-Skinner system. I maintain my view that making an ENTIRE event's gear purchasable with points would in effect destroy the event. Making ALL of Abyssea's +2 trinkets/gear purchasable by points would drastically decrease the event's shelf life. This has been borne out by Fell Cleave cruor parties, has it not? People are making Cruor hand over fist. Imagine if they could purchase +2 trinkets for every job with this Cruor. Bam, dead event walking. People already mostly look the same in their +2 armor. Do you want Joe Schmoe and his 17-WHM mule cruor strikeforce to trade in their ill-gotten gains for instant +2? Do you want RMT to purchase every piece of gear available in Limbus through ABC's without beating Ultima/Omega? Note this argument was in my original post, which you didn't even respond to, so I'm not sure where you get justification for stating that I haven't put forth valid arguments.

What you essentially did was take my original post and extrapolate it to its extreme as a springboard for your Skinner soapbox, never allowing for a middle ground where an event can take on certain facets of an operative conditioning chamber (Abyssea) while not turning into an egregious variable reward system (Voidwatch). Ironically, making ALL gear in an event purchasable by points could potentially lead to a grindfest in and of itself, and require 200+ events per item to acquire some of the best rewards.

In any event, as the below post indicates, we have overstayed our welcome as I feared. Seems we BOTH agree Voidwatch drop rates are egregious, so I'm going to leave it at that and stop engaging with you on these issues.

[Babekeke]

Will you two (Saevel and Mahoro) please get a room?

[FrankReynolds]

Making ALL of Abyssea's +2 trinkets/gear purchasable by points would drastically decrease the event's shelf life. This has been borne out by Fell Cleave cruor parties, has it not? People are making Cruor hand over fist. Imagine if they could purchase +2 trinkets for every job with this Cruor. Bam, dead event walking. People already mostly look the same in their +2 armor. Do you want Joe Schmoe and his 17-WHM mule cruor strikeforce to trade in their ill-gotten gains for instant +2?

If it costed 360k to enter abyssea, and you could only stay for 30 minutes, then there really would be no problem. Making the points requirement for gear high enough that it is still in most cases faster to get the gear through random drops, ensures that people will continue to do the event as intended, but know that if things don't go their way they will eventually get the drop. There are no fodder mobs to grind out in legion. The only way to get points is to kill the same NMs you would have to kill anyways.


See above. Ironically, making all gear in an event purchasable by points could potentially lead to a grindfest in and of itself, and require 200+ events per item to acquire some of the best rewards. Your argument makes no allowance for this.


There is no allowance to be made. If it takes 200 events to get Item X to drop, or it takes 200 events to buy Item X with points, the outcome is the same. The only difference is that with points, you know that when you hit 200 events item X will be yours. Without points, you invariably get more and more depressed after every event where you get no drop. There is no alternate route like cruor farming in legion. You can't just go kill 2,000 mandrigoras instead of fighting the NM 20 times.


There will never be a perfect event tailored to you that is somehow so hard that other people can't do it, but easy enough that you and your friends can. There will always be a million people running around in the same gear unless SE decides to give us a dat swapping function in game.

[Kuwabaraone]

Thanks for the Post Fransisco. Sadly, I lost some good friends because of the current plans that the 'Old' Development team is implementing, and you are correct. The LS that I was in, at best, had 12 members that remained active. With this new system, we cannot possibly achieve victory under the expected conditions. Bad blood from other players aside, the issue goes to loot rates and mobs present. Sure, it would test our skills and allow us to cooperate better, but it's only natural that issues of who gets what inbetween alliances will cause problems. Hopefully, the 'Old' Development Team will take this into consideration.

KB1

[Babekeke]

Thanks for the Post Fransisco. Sadly, I lost some good friends because of the current plans that the 'Old' Development team is implementing, and you are correct. The LS that I was in, at best, had 12 members that remained active. With this new system, we cannot possibly achieve victory under the expected conditions. Bad blood from other players aside, the issue goes to loot rates and mobs present. Sure, it would test our skills and allow us to cooperate better, but it's only natural that issues of who gets what inbetween alliances will cause problems. Hopefully, the 'Old' Development Team will take this into consideration.

KB1

Free lot it all. Fixed

[Tile]

the reason I dont care if some one pays to bring in there mules, and leechs like 3 kills for 360k is the fact they wont be able to sell anything they get. all item you got with points in einherjar, and items from limbus were r/ex won't be surprised if all these are too.

[Mahoro]

If it costed 360k to enter abyssea, and you could only stay for 30 minutes, then there really would be no problem. Making the points requirement for gear high enough that it is still in most cases faster to get the gear through random drops, ensures that people will continue to do the event as intended, but know that if things don't go their way they will eventually get the drop. There are no fodder mobs to grind out in legion. The only way to get points is to kill the same NMs you would have to kill anyways.

We actually don't know yet what will be considered "fodder" and what won't be. Looking at the monster list in Legion, there are clearly mob types that are easier than the others. These will likely be targeted for "Legion point farming" by smaller groups like Kuwabaroanes. Your example of 2,000 Mandragoras might be the equivalent to this.

Not sure what your point is re: the perfect event in relation to what I said. I would submit Abyssea and Einherjar were as close to perfect events as this game ever saw. Those weren't "easy for me but hard for others" as your requirements stated.

[Zaknafein]

the reason I dont care if some one pays to bring in there mules, and leechs like 3 kills for 360k is the fact they wont be able to sell anything they get. all item you got with points in einherjar, and items from limbus were r/ex won't be surprised if all these are too.

Hopefully that is the case.

[FrankReynolds]

We actually don't know yet what will be considered "fodder" and what won't be. Looking at the monster list in Legion, there are clearly mob types that are easier than the others. These will likely be targeted for "Legion point farming" by smaller groups like Kuwabaroanes. Your example of 2,000 Mandragoras might be the equivalent to this.

Not sure what your point is re: the perfect event in relation to what I said. I would submit Abyssea and Einherjar were as close to perfect events as this game ever saw. Those weren't "easy for me but hard for others" as your requirements stated.

It was in reference to the often repeated complaint that everyone is walking around in +2. Many people seem to think that they should have better gear than the rest of the populace and are upset by other players wearing the same gear as them. There is nothing you can do that someone else can't do, and in most cases there is more than one way to do it. People are always going to go after the best gear, and they are always going to wear it when they get it. This trend has always existed, and will never go away.

As for the fodder mobs, I think your being a little paranoid.

[Mahoro]

It was in reference to the often repeated complaint that everyone is walking around in +2. Many people seem to think that they should have better gear than the rest of the populace and are upset by other players wearing the same gear as them. There is nothing you can do that someone else can't do, and in most cases there is more than one way to do it. People are always going to go after the best gear, and they are always going to wear it when they get it. This trend has always existed, and will never go away.

Er ok, that wasn't where I was going with that, but sure, I agree. But while it may be true, there is no reason to speed up that process (or open it up to exploitative behavior) by allowing all Abyssea gear to be purchased by cruor, or all Limbus gear to be purchased by beastcoins. Each event would soon be worthless because nobody would ever fight the actual bosses. When Joe Schmoe and his 17-mule Fell Cleave ally can purchase complete sets of +2 from the NPC, that's when you know the event is DOA.

Back on topic, I wonder if Legion is a way of "making amends" with the playerbase for the unforgiving VW reward system and our cry for points systems. I am excited to see how it goes. Thanks for the continual updates Camate.

[Dekusuta]

Legion is stillborn already with their old 2005 SE mentality and planning

Points system is needed, or at worst, VW's box loot system, but even that has the problem of R/E items going to the wrong person all the time. How about a way to put items into the pool?

Really, there's no way this can can support linkshells with 36+ players (18 is already pushing it and those only happen with a lot of mules or VW shouting) unless its like Walk of Echoes where anyone can participate and even that event is a wasteland when I play during NA prime time on my server.

SE is so completely out of touch it's not even funny.

[Mahoro]

Legion is stillborn already with their old 2005 SE mentality and planning

Points system is needed, or at worst, VW's box loot system, but even that has the problem of R/E items going to the wrong person all the time. How about a way to put items into the pool?

Really, there's no way this can can support linkshells with 36+ players (18 is already pushing it and those only happen with a lot of mules or VW shouting) unless its like Walk of Echoes where anyone can participate and even that event is a wasteland when I play during NA prime time on my server.

SE is so completely out of touch it's not even funny.

It sounds like you may not have skimmed the devs' posts in this thread. There is a points system in Legion, and you don't need 18 to finish the event. There are two levels of "difficulty" for groups of 18 or groups of 36, but each level does not mean you need the full 18 or 36 to participate. You can enter and get stuff done with a party of 6 or 12. Loot drops in the shared loot pool instead of individual chests.

[FrankReynolds]

Er ok, that wasn't where I was going with that, but sure, I agree. But while it may be true, there is no reason to speed up that process (or open it up to exploitative behavior) by allowing all Abyssea gear to be purchased by cruor, or all Limbus gear to be purchased by beastcoins. Each event would soon be worthless because nobody would ever fight the actual bosses. When Joe Schmoe and his 17-mule Fell Cleave ally can purchase complete sets of +2 from the NPC, that's when you know the event is DOA.


Except in the cases your comparing it to (abyssea / limbus) They would have to add a charge just to enter the event (360k per limbus / abyssea run?!? 0.o), and take away all time extensions so that you had 30 minutes per event. Then they would have to make it so that cruor / beast coins only dropped from NMs instead of dropping off of ep mobs. Just imagine the price of ABCs lol.

But then again, if they had done that with abyssea, you wouldn't care about legion, because you would still be trying to gather all your +2 gear right now.

Joe schmoe isn't stupid enough to try and fell cleave Rani with 17 naked WHM mules, and even if he was, who cares?

In summary, being able to buy the gear with points or w/e in legion makes perfect sense.

[Mahoro]

Except in the cases your comparing it to (abyssea / limbus) They would have to add a charge just to enter the event (360k per limbus / abyssea run?!? 0.o), and take away all time extensions so that you had 30 minutes per event. Then they would have to make it so that cruor / beast coins only dropped from NMs instead of dropping off of ep mobs. Just imagine the price of ABCs lol.

But then again, if they had done that with abyssea, you wouldn't care about legion, because you would still be trying to gather all your +2 gear right now.

Joe schmoe isn't stupid enough to try and fell cleave Rani with 17 naked WHM mules, and even if he was, who cares?

In summary, being able to buy the gear with points or w/e in legion makes perfect sense.

There is a charge to enter Limbus, and when it was first released and people were doing it with 12+ people, it cost 360,000+ 0.o Anyway, you could think of tons of differences between Abyssea, Limbus, and Legion. My point was that most of each event would lay untouched if you could just spam the same mobs over and over and amass points to buy the best gear. In Abyssea/Limbus, it was EP mobs. In Legion, we don't know what it is yet. You chose Rani for your example, one of the toughest NM's in Abyssea. Obviously Joe Schmoe wouldn't fell cleave that. In fact, nobody would ever fight it after getting Shinryu access if you could purchase the Epona's Ring from killing trash mobs. Do you think people will ever touch Paramount Botulus or some of the other harder Legion mobs if they could get every single drop from farming the easier mob types? It doesn't make sense from a design perspective. I am unconvinced that paying 360,000 and having a 30 minute event (which has no cooldown) entitles you to that scenario simply because there is a lack of "traditional EP mobs."

Don't get me wrong though, I hope drop rates in Legion are very forgiving and the stuff you can buy with points is good. I am sick of 0.001% drop rates and want to see people actually walk out of Legion with stuff besides logs.

[FrankReynolds]

There is a charge to enter Limbus, and when it was first released and people were doing it with 12+ people, it cost 360,000+ 0.o Anyway, you could think of tons of differences between Abyssea, Limbus, and Legion. My point was that most of each event would lay untouched if you could just spam the same mobs over and over and amass points to buy the best gear. In Abyssea/Limbus, it was EP mobs. In Legion, we don't know what it is yet. You chose Rani for your example, one of the toughest NM's in Abyssea. Obviously Joe Schmoe wouldn't fell cleave that. In fact, nobody would ever fight it after getting Shinryu access if you could purchase the Epona's Ring from killing trash mobs.

I have a really hard time believing that legion is going to be a room full of ep-em mobs that are so weak that you can mow through them with 1-2 people. Everything you are saying is assuming that there will be fodder mobs that drop great gear. If the mobs are that weak, then joe schmoe will just plow through them, and get everything for his mules anyways, point system or not.


Do you think people will ever touch Paramount Botulus or some of the other harder Legion mobs if they could get every single drop from farming the easier mob types? It doesn't make sense from a design perspective. I am unconvinced that paying 360,000 and having a 30 minute event (which has no cooldown) entitles you to that scenario simply because there is a lack of "traditional EP mobs."

Why would fodder mobs be worth the same amount of points as botulus legion guy? why not make the points from fodder mobs so small in comparison that it would be foolish to attempt to get good gear that way? or just assign 2 different point systems. One for regular gear, and one for NM gear, that can only be attained from NMs? like they do with trophies and cruor. There has to be a million different ways to implement a point system that would be more fair and predictable than dumb luck.

On a side note, if your against joe getting his gear the easy way... why support a system that might give him the best drop on his first run?

[Mahoro]

You keep drawing similarities to the EP-EM mobs of other events when that isn't my point. I know very well there are no EP mobs in Legion, which you can tell from the last post of mine you quoted. I also never assumed the weaker Legion mobs will drop great gear. I don't expect them to, because judging from the list of mobs there appear to be a series of NM's and "Paramount" bosses IIRC.

You are the one who advocated for a system where killing weaker NM's over and over again will get you access to the best drops in the event. I'm saying if that were the case in previous events like Abyssea and Limbus, the hardest NM's would lay untouched. That is bad from a design perspective and an exploitative perspective. I'm actually in support of the points ideas or trophy idea you stated, which someone else echoed from several pages back. So we agree on that.

In the end, I think it's premature to continue this discussion till we know more about the event.

[Seriha]

Personally, I am kind of worried about specific NMs only dropping specific items since Legion points apparently won't buy you items dropped inside. So, unless there's a certain level of predictability in a given foe making an appearance, it's possible a group/alliance could go a number of runs without seeing a mob they'd like. This gets even worse if the desired foe is particularly cheesy, like the difference between Rani and Sippoy even though both are caturae. Finally, you'll have the actual drop rate to take into consideration, which only invites drama if you're looking at 36 people wanting the same thing that drops rarely that may have a 1/x chance showing. It's shades of Leech King and Argus, really.

Now, this isn't to say mobs can't share loot pools, but it'll probably be something like 5% to access all the available head pieces, then whatever percentage is based on those numbers. So, if there were 5 possible head armors, that'd be 20% chance for one you want against that 5%, for a 1% drop rate per kill. That just gets worse the more you possibilities you add, like with all the different weapon types.

[FrankReynolds]

You keep drawing similarities to the EP-EM mobs of other events when that isn't my point. I know very well there are no EP mobs in Legion, which you can tell from the last post of mine you quoted. I also never assumed the weaker Legion mobs will drop great gear. I don't expect them to, because judging from the list of mobs there appear to be a series of NM's and "Paramount" bosses IIRC.

You are the one who advocated for a system where killing weaker NM's over and over again will get you access to the best drops in the event. I'm saying if that were the case in previous events like Abyssea and Limbus, the hardest NM's would lay untouched. That is bad from a design perspective and an exploitative perspective. I'm actually in support of the points ideas or trophy idea you stated, which someone else echoed from several pages back. So we agree on that.

In the end, I think it's premature to continue this discussion till we know more about the event.

If the object isn't to kill as many mobs as possible, then what is the point? Why not just make them instanced if people are just going to be able to pick the one bad ass mob and spam it? Why not just say "360k to pop botulus legion guy"? I thought the whole point of this event was to spam as many mobs as possible. If its just going to be "Pay 360k and get a chance at fighting that one NM that has the cool drop.." then they might as well just add the mobs to voidwatch.

[Mirabelle]

My hope for legion was to have it like a Boss Battle mode in many single player games:
You fight tougher and tougher HNM's in sequence until you get to the final baddie. You try to do this before you time out. The further you get the more points you accrue. Points are then spent on good gear.

If you want add temps and time extensions at certain way points to maybe extend the event to one hour. It's not dissimilar to einherjar or salvage except you eliminate the trash mobs and just have players defeating the big bosses and seeing how far they can get.

This eliminates the risk of people just doing trash mobs for points.

But sadly SE always seems to want to complicate things and I suspect legion will have its share of complications.

[Arcon]

My hope for legion was to have it like a Boss Battle mode in many single player games:
You fight tougher and tougher HNM's in sequence until you get to the final baddie. You try to do this before you time out. The further you get the more points you accrue. Points are then spent on good gear.

That's kinda how I imagine the dungeon crawl system to be like. Or I'd like it to be, rather. So far I'm pretty happy about what SE told us about Legion as well.

[Mahoro]

If the object isn't to kill as many mobs as possible, then what is the point? Why not just make them instanced if people are just going to be able to pick the one bad ass mob and spam it? Why not just say "360k to pop botulus legion guy"? I thought the whole point of this event was to spam as many mobs as possible. If its just going to be "Pay 360k and get a chance at fighting that one NM that has the cool drop.." then they might as well just add the mobs to voidwatch.

As far as I know, the point is to kill as many mobs as possible, including but not limited to the bad ass ones. I don't think they intend for people to find the easiest mob and spam it for points, but Camate can speak to that better than I can.

[Sparthos]

As far as I know, the point is to kill as many mobs as possible, including but not limited to the bad ass ones. I don't think they intend for people to find the easiest mob and spam it for points, but Camate can speak to that better than I can.

From what we've been told each monster will have its own drops so if you want a certain drop you'll have to repeat a chamber and possibly plow through a set or two to get access to the NM you want.

Lets just say for example one chamber has the 3 kings which then is followed by the reskins followed by a Paramount mob. To get a paramount drop you'd have to beat the wave one, wave two and then beat the Paramount.

If each monster has a unique drop you might see individuals picking a certain mob to kill only while saccing the others away to get the desired mob to pop.