[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion" [Archive] - Page 2

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Mahoro

01-28-2012, 09:14 AM

That's good if they don't all pop at once when you enter. It will give incentive to do the event rather than sac everything and search for the boss (or trash mobs). It will be more like Mirabelle stated above, where you fight tougher and tougher HNM's in sequence.

SpankWustler

01-28-2012, 10:19 AM

Some intrepid fellow found that some of the stuff that was taken out of the .dats a while back has been put back in. (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=5019962&viewfull=1#post5019962)

I hope folks like long lists that have been copy-pasted after a quarter-assed double-check, because here it comes! As a bonus, some of this stuff probably doesn't even come from Legion. Some of this stuff might not even be new. I might have accidentally cut out a new item or two while haphazardly eliminating Relics/Mythics/Empyreans from this list to make it slightly less huge. With that said, here's a bunch of stuff:

Legion Chest 1
DEF:70 STR+10 DEX+10 Attack+12
Critical hit rate +3%
Set: Haste+6%
Lv96 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, DRG

Legion Chest 2
DEF:65 DEX+9 AGI+9 MND+9
Accuracy+10
Ranged Accuracy+10
Haste+4%
Set: Increases rate of critical hits
Lv96 MNK, THF, RNG, SAM, NIN, COR, PUP, DNC

Legion Chest 3
DEF:52 HP+40 MP+40 INT+10 MND+10
CHR+10 "Magic Atk. Bonus"+5
"Cure" potency +5%
Set: Magic Accuracy+5
Lv96 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, BLU, SCH

Legion Chest 4
DEF:67 STR+10 DEX+10
Accuracy+10 Attack+10
Evasion-15 Critical hit rate +4%
Lv97 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, NIN

Legion Chest 5
DEF:60 STR+5 AGI+10
Ranged Accuracy+15
Ranged Attack+15
Lv97 RNG, COR

Legion Chest 6
DEF:55 INT+15
Magic Accuracy+5
"Magic Attack Bonus"+8
Adds "Refresh" effect
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

Legion Chest 7
DEF:70 STR+15 DEX+15 Accuracy+20
Attack+20 Haste+3%
Critical hit rate +2%
Adds "Refresh" effect
Lv99 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG

Legion Chest 8
DEF:55 INT+10 MND+10
"Magic Attack Bonus"+10
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Enmity-10
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, SMN, SCH

------------------------------------

Rheic Korazin / +1 / +2 / +3 / Phorcys Korazin
All Lv99 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG

DEF:68 STR+12 Attack+3%

DEF:68 STR+12 Attack+3%
"Magic Attack Bonus"+5

DEF:69 STR+12 Attack+3%
"Magic Attack Bonus"+3
Increases weapon skill damage

DEF:69 STR+14 Attack+4%
"Magic Attack Bonus"+5
Increases weapon skill damage

DEF:70 STR+16 Attack+5%
"Magic Attack Bonus"+7
Increases weapon skill damage
Set: Increases STR, VIT, INT, MND

------------------------------------

Euxine Coat / +1 / +2 / +3 / Thaumas Coat
All Lv99 MNK, THF, RNG, NIN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

DEF:61 Accuracy+10 Haste+2%

DEF:61 Accuracy+10 Haste+2%
"Double Attack"+1%

DEF:62 Accuracy+10 Haste+3%
"Double Attack"+1%
"Triple Attack"+1%
"Quadruple Attack"+1%

DEF:62 Accuracy+10 Haste+3%
"Double Attack"+2%
"Triple Attack"+2%
"Quadruple Attack"+2%

DEF:63 Accuracy+12 Haste+4%
"Double Attack"+3%
"Triple Attack"+3%
"Quadruple Attack"+3%
Set: Increases STR, DEX, AGI, MND

------------------------------------

Tethyan Saio / +1 / +2 / +3 / Nares Saio
All Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

DEF:51 INT+7 MND+7 CHR+7

DEF:51 INT+7 MND+7 CHR+7
Enmity-8

DEF:52 INT+7 MND+7 CHR+7
Magic Accuracy+10
"Magic Attack Bonus"+4
Enmity-1

DEF:52 INT+8 MND+8 CHR+8
Magic Accuracy+12
"Magic Attack Bonus"+6
Enmity-3

DEF:53 INT+9 MND+9 CHR+9
Magic Accuracy+15
"Magic Attack Bonus"+8
Enmity-5
Set: Increases STR, MND, INT, CHR

------------------------------------

Legion Hands 1
DEF:32 DEX+6
Attack+15 Haste+2%
Set: Haste+6%
Lv96 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, DRG

Legion Hands 2
DEF:29 STR+10 DEX+6 AGI+6
"Double Attack"+3%
Set: Increases rate of critical hits
Lv96 MNK, THF, RNG, SAM, NIN, COR, PUP, DNC

Legion Hands 3
DEF:24 MP+30 Magic Accuracy+7
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Enmity-4
Set: Magic Accuracy+5
Lv96 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, BLU, SCH

Legion Hands 4
DEF:28 HP+20 STR+8
Attack+10 Haste+4%
Lv97 MNK, THF, BST, RNG, NIN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

Legion Hends 5
DEF:28 STR+6 DEX+6
Accuracy+5
Attack+10 Haste+2%
Lv97 MNK, SAM, PUP

Legion Hands 6
DEF:25 Magic Accuracy+15
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

Legion Hands 7
DEF:29 Magic Accuracy+5
Enfeebling magic skill +10
Elemental magic skill +10
Dark magic skill +10
Blue magic skill +5
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, SMN, BLU, SCH

------------------------------------

Rheic Mitts / +1 / +2 / +3 / Phorcys Mitts list
All Lv99 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG

DEF:29 STR+6 INT+6

DEF:29 STR+6 VIT+6 INT+6 MND+6

DEF:30 STR+7 VIT+7 INT+7 MND+7
Attack+11 "Double Attack"+1%

DEF:30 STR+8 VIT+8 INT+8 MND+8
Attack+13 "Double Attack"+1%

DEF:31 STR+9 VIT+9 INT+9 MND+9
Attack+15 "Double Attack"+2%
Set: Increases STR, VIT, INT, MND

------------------------------------

Euxine Gloves / +1 / +2 / +3 / Thaumas Gloves
All Lv99 MNK, THF, RNG, NIN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

DEF:26 AGI+6 Accuracy+5

DEF:26 DEX+6 AGI+6
Accuracy+5

DEF:27 DEX+6 VIT+6 AGI+6 Accuracy+5
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Haste+2%

DEF:27 DEX+7 VIT+7 AGI+7
Accuracy+7
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Haste+2%

DEF:28 DEX+8 VIT+8 AGI+8
Accuracy+9
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Haste+3%
Increases STR, DEX, AGI, MND

------------------------------------

Tethyan Cuffs / +1 / +2 / +3 / Nares Cuffs
All Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

DEF:22 MP+2%
MP recovered while healing +3

DEF:22 MP+2%
MP recovered while healing +3
Avatar: "Magic Atk. Bonus"+5

DEF:23 MP+2%
"Magic Attack Bonus"+7
MP recovered while healing +3
Avatar: "Magic Atk. Bonus"+5

DEF:23 MP+2%
"Magic Attack Bonus"+10
MP recovered while healing +3
Avatar: "Magic Atk. Bonus"+5

DEF:24 MP+3%
"Magic Attack Bonus"+13
MP recovered while healing +4
Avatar: "Magic Atk. Bonus"+8
Set: Increases STR, MND, INT, CHR

------------------------------------

Rheic Dirs / +1 / +2 / +3 / Phorcys Dirs
All Lv99 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG

DEF:49 Attack+18
"Store TP"+5

DEF:49 VIT+8
Attack+18
"Store TP"+5

DEF:50 DEX+8 VIT+8
Attack+20 "Store TP"+2 Haste+4%

DEF:50 DEX+9 VIT+9
Attack+22 "Store TP"+4
Haste+5%

DEF:51 DEX+10 VIT+10
Attack+24 "Store TP"+6 Haste+6%
Set: Increases STR, VIT, INT, MND

------------------------------------

Euxine Kecks / +1 / +2 / +3 / Thaumas Kecks
All Lv99 MNK, THF, RNG, NIN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

DEF:45 HP+30 Haste+4%

DEF:45 HP+30
Attack+8 Haste+4%

DEF:46 HP+30 STR+7 AGI+7
Accuracy+10 Attack+10 Haste+4%

DEF:46 HP+35 STR+8 AGI+8
Accuracy+12 Attack+13 Haste+5%

DEF:47 HP+40 STR+9 AGI+9
Accuracy+14 Attack+14 Haste+6%
Set: Increases STR, DEX, AGI, MND

------------------------------------

Tethyan Trews / +1 / +2 / +3 / Nares Trews
All Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

DEF:40 MP+1% MND+12

DEF:40 HP+2% MP+2% MND+12

DEF:41 HP+3% MP+3% MND+12
"Cure" potency +3%

DEF:41 HP+3% MP+3% MND+13
"Cure" potency +5%

DEF:42 HP+4% MP+4% MND+14
"Cure" potency +7%
Adds "Refresh" effect
Set: Increases STR, MND, INT, CHR

------------------------------------

Legion Leggings 1
DEF:26 STR+8 DEX+5
Enmity+4 Haste+2%
Set: Haste+6%
Lv96 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, DRG

Legion Leggings 2
DEF:23 DEX+6 AGI+6 Evasion+5
Haste+2% "Subtle Blow"+5
Set: Increases rate of critical hits
Lv96 MNK, THF, RNG, SAM, NIN, COR, PUP, DNC

Legion Leggings 3
DEF:19 MND+9 CHR+9
"Magic Attack Bonus"+5
Magic Defense+5
Enmity-7
Set: Magic Accuracy+5
Lv96 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, BLU, SCH

Legion Leggings 4
DEF:23 MP-20 STR+5
Accuracy+8 Evasion+8
Addle +5%
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, PUP, SCH

Legion Leggings 5
DEF:28 STR+6 VIT+6 Accuracy+5
"Store TP"+4 Haste+2%
Lv97 WAR, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, DRG

Legion Leggings 6
DEF:24 DEX+10 AGI+10 Haste+4%
Critical hit rate +3%
Enhances "Snapshot" effect
Lv99 MNK, THF, RNG, NIN, BLU, COR, DNC

------------------------------------

Rheic Schuhs / +1 / +2 / +3 / Phorcys Schuhs
All Lv99 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG

DEF:26 Physical damage taken -3%

DEF:26 Accuracy+8
Physical damage taken -3%

DEF:27 Accuracy+8
Physical damage taken -3%
"Double Attack"+1%
Enemy TP accumulation -6
when physical damage taken

DEF:27 Accuracy+10
Physical damage taken -4%
"Double Attack"+2%
Enemy TP accumulation -8
when physical damage taken

DEF:28 Accuracy+12
Physical damage taken -5%
"Double Attack"+3%
Enemy TP accumulation -10
when physical damage taken
Set: Increases STR, VIT, INT, MND

------------------------------------

Euxine Nails / +1 / +2 / +3 / Thaumas Nails
All Lv99 MNK, THF, RNG, NIN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

DEF:24 DEX+7 AGI+7

DEF:24 DEX+7 AGI+7 MND+7

DEF:25 DEX+7 AGI+7 MND+7
Attack+10
Ranged Attack+10
"Double Attack"+1%

DEF:25 DEX+8 AGI+8 MND+8
Attack+12
Ranged Attack+12
"Double Attack"+2%

DEF:26 DEX+9 AGI+9 MND+9
Attack+14
Ranged Attack+14
"Double Attack"+3%
Set: Increases STR, DEX, AGI, MND

------------------------------------

Tethyan Clogs / +1 / +2 / +3 / Nares Clogs
All Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

DEF:19 MND+6 CHR+6

DEF:19 HP+1% MP+1% MND+5 CHR+5

DEF:20 HP+1% MP+1% MND+6 CHR+6
Magic Accuracy+4
"Magic Attack Bonus"+4

DEF:20 HP+2% MP+2% MND+6 CHR+6
Magic Accuracy+5
"Magic Attack Bonus"+5

DEF:21 HP+3% MP+3% MND+8 CHR+8
Magic Accuracy+7
"Magic Attack Bonus"+7
Set: Increases STR, MND, INT, CHR

------------------------------------

Lunette Ring
Latent effect:
Magic Defense+7
Lv99 All Jobs

Legion Ring 1
STR+5
Enchantment: Attack+10
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 2
DEX+5
Enchantment: Accuracy+10
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 3
VIT+5
Enchantment: DEF+30
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 4
AGI+5
Enchantment: Evasion+10
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 5
INT+5
Enchantment:
"Magic Attack Bonus"+3
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 6
MND+5
Enchantment: Magic Defense+3
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 7
CHR+5
Enchantment: Magic Accuracy+8
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 8
"Double Attack"+1%
Legion: Accuracy+8
"Double Attack"+2%
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 9
Occ. quickens spellcasting +1%
Legion: Magic Accuracy+4
"Magic Attack Bonus"+4
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 10
Ranged Attack+7
"Subtle Blow"+7
Lv99 All Jobs

Legion Ring 11
DEF:15 VIT+3 Enmity+5
Lv99 All Jobs

Legion Ring 12
Magic Accuracy+3 Enmity-5
Lv99 All Jobs

Legion Ring 13
Potency of "Cure" and Waltz"
effects received +3%
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Ring 14
Magic Accuracy+5
Legion: "Magic Attack Bonus"+5
Adds "Refresh" effect
Lv97 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

Legion Shield 1
DEF:35 VIT+10
Physical damage taken -7%
"Slow"+2%
Lv99 WAR, PLD

Legion Belt 1
DEF:14 ≺Element: Fire≻+25
Attack+10 Haste+2%
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Belt 2
DEF:5 HP+20 ≺Element: Fire≻+15 ≺Element: Ice≻+15
≺Element: Air≻+15 ≺Element: Earth≻+15 ≺Element: Thunder≻+15
≺Element: Water≻+15 ≺Element: Light≻+15 ≺Element: Dark≻+15
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Belt 3
DEF:7 Magic Accuracy-15
"Magic Attack Bonus"+7
Magic critical hit rate +10%
Lv99 WHM, BLM, BRD, SMN, PUP, SCH

Hyeysti Helm
DEF:42 STR+10 "Store TP"+7
Enhances "Resist Paralyze" effect
Lv97 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, NIN

Legion Helm 1
DEF:43 STR+7 Attack+15
Haste+4%
Set: Haste+6%
Lv96 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, DRG

Legion Helm 2
DEF:37 STR+5 DEX+5
Attack+10 Haste+5%
Set: Increases rate of critical hits
Lv96 MNK, THF, RNG, SAM, NIN, COR, PUP, DNC

Legion Helm 3
DEF:30 HP+30 STR+5 INT+8 MND+8
Magic Accuracy+5
Set: Magic Accuracy+5
Lv96 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, BLU, SCH

Legion Helm 4
DEF:30 INT+9 MND+9 CHR+9
Magic Accuracy+2 Enmity-5
Lv97 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

Legion Helm 5
DEF:33
Dark magic skill +15
Ehances the effect of "Drain" and "Aspir"
Lv97 BLM, DRK, SCH

Legion Helm 6
DEF:25 AGI+5
Ranged Accuracy+17
Lv97 THF, RNG, COR

Legion Helm 7
DEF:30 INT+10 MND+10 CHR+10
Magic Accuracy+12
"Magic Attack Bonus"+12
Legion: Magic critical hit rate +10
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, BLU, PUP, SCH

------------------------------------

Rheic Salade / +1 / +2 / +3 / Phorcys Salade
All Lv99 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG

DEF:34 Attack+7

DEF:34 Accuracy+7 Attack+7

DEF:35 Accuracy+6 Attack+6
"Store TP"+1 Haste+5%
"Subtle Blow"+1

DEF:35 Accuracy+8 Attack+8
"Store TP"+3 Haste+6%
"Subtle Blow"+3

DEF:36 Accuracy+10
Attack+10 "Store TP"+5
Haste+7% "Subtle Blow"+5
Set: Increases STR, VIT, INT, MND

------------------------------------

Euxine Hat / +1 / +2 / +3 / Thaumas Hat
All Lv99 MNK, THF, RNG, NIN, BLU, COR, PUP, DNC

DEF:32 STR+5 AGI+12
Ranged Attack+5 Magic Accuracy+3

DEF:32 STR+5 AGI+12
Ranged Attack+5 Magic Accuracy+3

DEF:33 STR+5 AGI+12
Ranged Attack+2 Magic Accuracy+2
"Magic Attack Bonus"+2
Critical hit rate +2%

DEF:33 STR+5 AGI+13
Ranged Attack+4
Magic Accuracy+4
"Magic Attack Bonus"+4
Critical hit rate +3%

DEF:34 STR+6 AGI+14
Ranged Attack+6
Magic Accuracy+6
"Magic Attack Bonus"+6
Critical hit rate +4%
Set: Increases STR, DEX, AGI, MND

------------------------------------

Tethyan Cap / +1 / +2 / +3 / Nares Cap
All Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

DEF:27 INT+10 "Conserve MP"+4

DEF:27 INT+10
"Conserve MP"+4
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect

DEF:28 INT+10
"Magic Atk. Bonus"+3
Magic critical hit rate +3%
"Conserve MP"+4
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect

DEF:28 INT+11
"Magic Attack Bonus"+4
Magic critical hit rate +4%
"Conserve MP"+4
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect

DEF:29 INT+12
"Magic Attack Bonus"+5
Magic critical hit rate +5%
"Conserve MP"+5
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Set: Increases STR, MND, INT, CHR

------------------------------------

Lgn. Necklace 1
Club skill +8
Divine magic skill +5
Healing magic skill +5
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Cape 1
DEF:17 Attack+15 Evasion+5
Lv96 WAR, MNK, RDM, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, NIN, DRG, BLU, COR, DNC

Legion Cape 2
DEF:18 HP+30 ≺Element: Fire≻+30
Occasionally absorbs
fire damage taken
Lv97 All Jobs

Legion Cape 3
DEF:10 Magic Accuracy+5
Augments "Absorb" spells
Enhances "Absorb" effects
Lv97 DRK

Legion Earring 1
STR+2 Attack+3
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Earring 2
INT+2 Magic Accuracy+2
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Earring 3
AGI+2 Evasion+3
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Earring 4
DEX+2 Accuracy+3
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Earring 5
CHR+2 Enmity-4
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Earring 6
MND+2 Magic Accuracy+2
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Earring 7
DEF:7 VIT+2
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Earring 8
Increases resistance to
all status ailments
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Earring 9
Blood Pact ability delay +5
Avatar: Increases "Blood Pact" damage
Lv99 SMN

Legion Earring 10
Magic critical hit rate +3%
Increases magic critical hit damage
Lv99 All Jobs

Legion Slacks 1
DEF:52 DEX+7 AGI+7 Attack+10
Evasion+5 Haste+2%
Set: Haste+6%
Lv96 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, DRG

Legion Slacks 2
DEF:50 STR+5 DEX+5
"Store TP"+5 Haste+3%
Set: Increases rate of critical hits
Lv96 MNK, THF, RNG, SAM, NIN, COR, PUP, DNC

Legion Slacks 3
DEF:43 INT+8 CHR+8
Enhancing magic skill +6
Summoning magic skill +6
"Cure" potency +4% Enmity-5
Set: Magic Accuracy+5
Lv96 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, BLU, SCH

Legion Slacks 4
DEF:40 Accuracy-20 Attack-10
"Subtle Blow"+10
"Triple Attack"+5%
Lv96 WAR, RDM, THF, PLD, DRK, BST, BRD, RNG, SAM, NIN, DRG, BLU, COR, DNC

Legion Slacks 5
DEF:43 VIT+5 Enmity+10
Physical damage taken -2%
Lv97 WAR, PLD, DRK

Legion Slacks 6
DEF:50 STR+8 VIT+5 Accuracy+10
Attack+10 Evasion-10
Lv97 WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, NIN

Legion Slacks 7
DEF:30
Divine magic skill+8
Enfeebling magic skill+8
Summoning magic skill+8
Haste+3%
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, SMN, BLU

Legion Slacks 8
DEF:45 CHR+10
Enhances "Fast Cast" effect
Avatar: Increases "Blood Pact" damage
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, BLU, SCH

And here's weapons. Same deal. Copy-paste. One quarter of my ass. Etc.

Lgn. Gt. Katana 1
DMG:120 Delay:450 STR+10
Attack+10
"Store TP"-18
"Conserve TP"+10
Lv99 SAM

Lgn. Gt. Katana 2
DMG:120 Delay:464 "Store TP"+5
Enhances effect of skillchain bonuses
Lv99 SAM

Legion Scythe 1
DMG:145 Delay:513
Dark magic skill +10
Enhances effect of "Absorb" spells
Lv99 DRK

Legion Fists 1
DMG+35 Delay+60 STR+10
"Counter"+5
Occasionally counters
for severe damage
Lv99 MNK, PUP

Legion Fists 2
DMG+34 Delay+60 STR+5 "Counter"+2
Lv99 MNK, PUP

Legion Grip 1
"Double Attack"+3
Lv99 All Jobs

Legion Club 1
DMG:75 Delay:340 STR+6 MND-10
Haste+3%
Lv97 WHM, PLD

Legion Knife 1
DMG:49 Delay:195 AGI+10
≺Element: Air≻+10 Haste+2%
Lv99 THF, BRD, DNC

Legion Knife 2
(Not translated) Ｄ37 隔150 トリプルアタック+5%
Lv99 THF, BRD, DNC

Lgn. Gt. Sword 1
DMG:132 Delay:480 Attack+30
During Scarlet Delerium:
Damage taken +2% Enmity+10
Lv99 PLD, DRK

Legion Throw. 1
Damage taken +3%
Decreases enemy critical hit evasion
by 10%
Lv96 All Jobs

Legion Throw. 2
VIT+5 Enmity+2
Lv99 All Jobs

Good luck picking through all of this stuff that hasn't even been named yet in order to determine how excited or disappointed you should be. Please don't be too happy though, or it might turn out worse when it's actually named and implemented.

Tsukino_Kaji

01-28-2012, 01:00 PM

Economizer

01-28-2012, 01:04 PM

Looking at this long list from the point of a White Mage, I notice that the only major upgrades we'll get are for Magic Accuracy and Magic Attack Bonus (basically meh). There are a handful of interesting pieces but aside from all jobs gear (so unless nobody else wants it, it drops like candy, or it is a result of points a White Mage will never get it) it is mostly a disappointment. Good luck to everyone's duel boxed White Mages, and good luck to all the White Mages who only play the job to get gear for other jobs, because apparently career White Mages are not allowed to get gear upgrades (perhaps I'm being a bit drama-ish but seriously, these days its all jobs gear or sidegrades for anything relating to healing or melee for White Mages... I suppose I can gear for Magic Accuracy and accept never having a Red Mage to cover me like I'd prefer).

Anyways, for the handful of pieces that looked like they could be something:

Legion Club 1
DMG:75 Delay:340 STR+6 MND-10
Haste+3%
Lv97 WHM, PLD

I guess this is how SE plans on having White Mages make up for all the "sidegrade gear" that drops a point of haste vs. lower level gear? Mind stat down wouldn't be a big deal if it wasn't a mod in just about every Club WS ever. I don't exactly see Paladins using this much either.

Set: Increases STR, MND, INT, CHR

This appears on the Nares set, which appears to be an HQ of HQ on the all mages set. If we're lucky, it will be a big enough boost to warrant wearing a few of the pieces during WS. Otherwise the set is mostly for enfeebling or nuking, stuff I don't typically devote gear to with my strained inventory space.

Legion Leggings 4
DEF:23 MP-20 STR+5
Accuracy+8 Evasion+8
Addle +5%
Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, PUP, SCH

That's nice, I'll take my chances with Voidwatch.

Nares Trews
All Lv99 WHM, BLM, RDM, BRD, SMN, SCH

DEF:42 HP+4% MP+4% MND+14
"Cure" potency +7%
Adds "Refresh" effect
Set: Increases STR, MND, INT, CHR

The final upgrade to a set, much like Salvage. If you play other mage jobs that cure things or want the set bonus, I think it would be worth it, but since you can get that refresh bonus on a tacky looking subligar as an augment, I don't think so.

Lunette Ring
Latent effect:
Magic Defense+7
Lv99 All Jobs

Legion Ring 1
STR+5
Enchantment: Attack+10
Lv96 All Jobs

Latents and Enchantments. Oh joy. I might remotely consider the ring if the Enchantment is 1/1, same deal for the latent if it doesn't suck. I don't think either will however.

Legion Ring 13
Potency of "Cure" and Waltz"
effects received +3%
Lv96 All Jobs

Great for soloing, now only if I can convince everyone ever to inventory -1 with this and macro it in... oh wait.

Lgn. Necklace 1
Club skill +8
Divine magic skill +5
Healing magic skill +5
Lv96 All Jobs

Interesting for the Club Skill. Not sure if it would be worth it yet.

Legion Earring 8
Increases resistance to
all status ailments
Lv96 All Jobs

Do want but if it is a drop I'm probably never getting one.

-

Basically, I see some nice gear, but for a White Mage, unless you are gear for magic accuracy or something, you could by and large do better in most cases. Considering that SE wants WHM to be the main healer, you'd think they'd try to get people who play career WHM to come rather then relying on everyone to dual box or play off class for gear.

SpankWustler

01-28-2012, 05:10 PM

I get the feeling that all the stuff labeled Legion [Thing Thing Number] drops in or is bought with points from Legion, but the three sets that are combined or upgraded over time or something will be found elsewhere.

I didn't cut it out along with the Relic/Mythic/Empyrean/not-new stuff because, hey, I could be wrong.

Arcon

01-28-2012, 05:17 PM

Devs,
Here is one major issue with treasure pools and time limits and it came up very often in WoE. When you are winning a lot that someone else doesn't want you to have, that instead they want one of their acquaintances, that person will hold up the lot/pass system to try and time you out from getting it. There should be some way to adress this.

They said they'll allocate 5 minutes after the battle purely for loot distribution (I'm guessing like in Einherjar), so that should make it impossible.

Sparthos

01-28-2012, 05:22 PM

Legion Fists 1
DMG+35 Delay+60 STR+10
"Counter"+5
Occasionally counters
for severe damage
Lv99 MNK, PUP

Legion Fists 2
DMG+34 Delay+60 STR+5 "Counter"+2
Lv99 MNK, PUP

I spy what looks like an NQ/HQ H2H where the NQ is normal and the HQ is glowy.

Perhaps those flaming fists the genkai taru had will be reused here.

Seriha

01-28-2012, 09:47 PM

My main beef with the mage stuff is a general lack of Haste. It's not a useless stat for them, but rare does it coincide with INT/MND/MATK/MACC pieces. Otherwise, they look to suffer from not all mages needing the same thing.

Economizer

01-28-2012, 11:14 PM

My main beef with the mage stuff is a general lack of Haste.

What's worse is when we do get haste on pieces, it is lowest common denominator haste, not upgraded haste. White Mage and Red Mage have ready access to the stuff while the other mages tend to have less.

Analysis:

For Red Mage is hasn't been as bad since they have at least gotten upgrades from other stats while keeping the same levels of haste in many cases, but White Mages who are looking for something better then the HQ Blessed Set basically lose a point of Haste per piece of gear if they try to move to higher level gear, even on WHM specific gear that has haste! Neither one really got an upgrade to haste values outside of all jobs gear for the head slot.

SpankWustler

01-28-2012, 11:25 PM

Otherwise, they look to suffer from not all mages needing the same thing.

I think the Development Bros have invented a drinking game around creating pieces which have INT paired with CHR or MND paired with CHR. I see entirely too many of such pieces for this to just be a coincidence.

Drinking Heavily and Inventing Pants with Funny Names:

"Rule 1. If the piece is still somehow good for something due to other stuff on it, take one drink.

Rule 2. If the piece would be good for something (even if that thing is just Inventory +1) if it had INT paired with MND, take two drinks.

Rule 3. If the piece makes less sense than putting a garter belt and a party hat on a frozen dead animal, finish the bottle.

Rule 4. If you think Summoner or Scholar can take advantage of MND paired with CHR for the weaponskill 'Scourge', put that bottle away. You've earned a promotion and you have a reputation to think about now!"

Economizer

01-28-2012, 11:54 PM

Rule 4. If you think Summoner or Scholar can take advantage of MND paired with CHR for the weaponskill 'Scourge'

Don't be silly, they wouldn't do that since neither of those jobs can get access to that weapon skill.

By the way, I just found out what the STR on the Rubeus Spats is for, they want SCH/WAR to use Keen Edge, BLM/DRG to use Penta Thrust, SMN/BST to use Spinning Axe, and BRD/RNG to use Piercing Arrow.

Camate

02-01-2012, 05:25 AM

Based on feedback received from players that participated on the test server meet-up the other day, the development team is planning some adjustments to the Legion system.

While a number of ideas are being looked into, I’d like to let you know about the battle related changes first.
*We will make some announcements about aspects other than battle in the future, so please wait a bit for those.

Adjustments to special ability AoE
Planning to reduce the effect range for AoE special abilities. Working currently to have this changed reflected in this week’s test server update.
Changes to make it possible to try again after a wipe
We will be performing two adjustments, which will create an area that will be safe from monsters as well as reducing monsters’ detection range.
*There will be no changes to link range.
These adjustments are planned to be implemented during next week’s test server update.

Please try out these changes once the test server is updated and let us know your thoughts!

Tile

02-01-2012, 06:02 AM

Sparthos

02-01-2012, 06:04 AM

They already announced an NA event planned for the future.

Tile

02-01-2012, 06:14 AM

They already announced an NA event planned for the future.

must have missed that, last I heard they were only looking into it

wish12oz

02-01-2012, 08:19 AM

They announced one? When is it? Why am I not seeing it in the Dev tracker?

Zubis

02-01-2012, 08:53 AM

They didn't announce one, they asked people to express their interest in attending one.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20164-Test-Server-Official-Legion-Event-Tonight?p=269431&viewfull=1#post269431

Doesn't sound like there's enough people interested?

Camate

02-08-2012, 05:21 AM

Howdy!

I’d like to share some responses to feedback gained through the Legion event held on the Japan side as well as other feedback received.

This may be because I have gotten used to the 2nd battle, but I can defeat the first 3 HNMs in about 15 minutes. However, I feel like the 2nd stage opponents are way too strong. They are too hard and I cannot chip away at them. I would prefer battles with more exhilaration.

I would hope that players get a better feel for each stage of battle as they attempt this content. Players should be able to advance further with each attempt as they get a better feel for the battles. I feel that the battles will become more exhilarating as players are able to complete them at a faster pace.

In addition, we will continue to make adjustments to the difficulty of the battles.

I feel that every opponent is “an NM with powerful AoE attacks and lots of HP,” which makes the content monotonous and a bit lacking in variety…
Wouldn’t it be better to make this content more exciting by adding NMs with more individuality(such as NMs with low HP, but very powerful AoE or NMs who hardly use AoE attacks, but have very high HP)?

The individuality of each monster is displayed in their actions and behavior. Understanding the characteristics of the monsters is the key to defeating them. We will continually adjust AoE attacks, so if there are any attacks that are deemed too powerful, they will definitely be adjusted.

My Valoredge automaton receives 300-400 damage from normal attacks, so this content is extremely difficult for me.

Thank you for providing us detailed statistics. We will use this as reference when evaluating potential adjustments. By the way, what was your enemy?

Considering that I was only able to defeat 3 monsters my last try and that the difficulty was set so that about 6 monsters can be defeated by a good player, I feel like there is basically no room for error.

We have set the difficulty of the monsters so that players can defeat 6 monsters even if they do not play perfectly, as long as they thoroughly understand the monsters’ characteristics and behavior patterns.

I don’t want the battles to come down to the point where everyone needs to just wipe and have one person hold the monsters until they can recover.

This is something we would certainly like to avoid, so we will continue to make adjustments to prevent this from happening.

As I expected, if you participate in this content with 36 players, it is impossible to know what is going on between the two alliances. If you move close enough to read the opponents’ battle logs, you will probably die from AoE attacks. It is very difficult to coordinate with 36 players and some adjustments are necessary.

I apologize for certain AoE skills that reach too far. We were able to allow communication among 36 players through linkshells in the Legion test server event, but we believe that communicating as best possible within alliances is the key to this content.

I would like the following spec to be changed: The temporary item obtained when you defeat an elemental can only be obtained by the player who defeated the elemental.

In exchange for the temporary item only being obtainable by the player who defeated the elemental, the temporary item has AoE effects. We have set up the battles so that they are not impossible to complete without the temporary item, so we would appreciate it if you view the temporary items as a bonus.

I believe I read somewhere that if you are defeated, you can return to the lobby to recuperate, but I feel like this was never implemented. Does this refer to the fact that reraise is granted in the lotting room after you are kicked?

Yes, that is what we’re referring to. (Actually raise is granted, not reraise)
Even if every party member is defeated, players are not forcefully kicked from the area. Players can recuperate in the lobby, distribute loot and then leave the area.

I feel like it is very difficult to lot on items during the battle, since we are very busy during battle and some players may be dead.

We are looking into allowing players to cast raise on defeated players as soon as every monster that has appeared is defeated.

I believe it is good that we are allowed a window of time to decide whether or not to enter or leave a room. However, it bothered me that the announced time remaining until entrance changes every time you enter a room. Is the time still counted even after every player has left the room?

The announced remaining time is the remaining time available for the legion passes.
The sooner you enter the room after receiving your legion pass, the more time you have to prepare, so we hope players are able to allocate their time easily.
※In the test server update on 2/3(Fri), we changed the time displayed in the help text for legion passes to match the countdown format of the announced remaining time.

The available time for legion passes is 5 minutes, so I have run out of time several times. Isn’t the available time for legion passes unnecessary?

This relates to the fundamental system of instanced areas, but if we do not implement a time limit for legion passes, it would be possible for a party to constantly claim an area, making the area inaccessible for other parties. We believe that 5 minutes is enough time to prepare for entering the room after receiving the legion pass, but do you feel like more time is necessary? If there are many requests to increase this time, we will look into it.

I have not gotten involved much with the legion passes personally, so I may not be in a position to comment, but I am very grateful that entire alliances can warp to the area. However, if possible, I think it would be better if all 36 participants can warp to the area.

That would be very convenient, indeed, but we are currently unable to connect multiple alliances…

I am not sure if this is a permanent spec, but I only received 1 dropped item (Dragon Chronicles) from an NM. Unless the drops are increased, people will stop participating in this content. I feel like 3-5 drops per NM defeated would be more fitting.

Incidentally, it seems like many players received only 1 drop per monster defeated in the Legion event, but it is certainly possible to receive multiple drops. Also, the expected drops are increased from the 2nd set of monsters on, so the more monsters you defeat, the more drops you will receive.

Regarding the quality of loot, this is determined by chance, so players will not always receive good items, but we will be sure to make adjustments so that players are not disappointed often.

Regarding dropped loot, would it be possible to implement a system similar to Union boxes from Campaign Battles, in which a certain number of loot items, based on the number of opponents defeated, are placed in the loot pool at the end?

First of all, there is a system limitation of ten items as the maximum number of items that fit in a loot box. If any more items are placed on the loot box, they will be lost, so we have thought about possibly splitting up loot into multiple boxes. However, if players have to split up loot from multiple boxes, players may not have enough time to distribute loot. Players may also mistakenly open the boxes before the loot is placed in the box.

Also, if loot is distributed at the end, players who can only participate partway through the content cannot receive their rewards. If we allow players to distribute loot after defeating each set of monsters, the pace of battle will be ruined and players will be even further pressed for time. Placing dropped items to the loot box and distributing these items through the lot system has been tried and tested in Dynamis content, and many players asked that this system be implemented in Walk of Echoes.

With that said, we decided that this system would be best suited for Legion content, which involves many loot items. (We also used the same though process for determining how legion points are obtained.)

----------
We will also be implementing adjustments based on player feedback in this week’s test server update and we would like to get even more feedback from the North American led Legion event (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20580-Test-Server-Feedback-Event-Legion?p=275815&viewfull=1#post275815).

Zubis

02-08-2012, 06:48 AM

Eep. PUP pets taking 300-400 damage? I might go to the Legion event as SMN rather than WAR. It's not much fun being KO'd in three hits.

Sparthos

02-08-2012, 07:15 AM

Pets suck in every endgame event so that is no surprise.

Yygdrasil

02-08-2012, 07:51 AM

Pets suck in every endgame event so that is no surprise.

I beg to differ. Summoners a powerhouse in WoE.

Francisco

02-08-2012, 08:26 AM

Is it just me, or was the answer to the PUP remark a bit flippant?

Player: My automaton takes like 300-400 damage!

Dev: Thanks for such a detailed remark. And yeah... what were you fighting?

...lol

saevel

02-08-2012, 09:02 AM

So basically, legion is VWNM but in an arena and without temps? Sounds like it's a bunch of NM's that spam high damage aoe's and wipe entire groups.

Glamdring

02-08-2012, 11:34 AM

Pets suck in every endgame event so that is no surprise.

beg pardon? there's a reason people complain about pet job users soloing stuff too easily, and it's the pet. Granted, it isn't as easy as those commenters think it is, we pet players that succeed have developed a good bit of skill and we are using it, but most chat displays don't show all those actions due to used chat filters. But if you think pets suck in end-game you need to meet some different players. My pet jobs are REQUESTED to come, because they rock, and I'm only a slightly above average skill player with mediocre gear.

It DOES help if you pick your battles intelligently, but that's true of any job. I avoid anything with Ice Spikes like the plague when I'm soloing on dnc since I can't do anything about the spikes and the cool down on healing waltz makes it impractical, especially since the para may block the waltz, but as bard or pup I have no issues with the spikes. That's just an example, every job has their strengths and weaknesses, it's the player's job to know them and use their character intelligentally and/or build their group to compensate. Pet jobs certainly have their place in the mix, the obvious example is anything that can charm; send in the pets and get out of range; there are many other uses.

Yygdrasil

02-08-2012, 11:50 AM

@Glamdring

Preach it! \(-.-)/

Alhanelem

02-08-2012, 03:09 PM

I would hope that players get a better feel for each stage of battle as they attempt this content.In case it gives you some insight, I think when people say they want more "exhilaration", I tihnk it is because they expected this content to be more akin to The Swarm event assault- bashing down as many monsters as possible in a time limit. But instead, it's more just a big battlefield with a bunch of HNMs thrown in. I think people expected this to be something more akin to that or maybe Campaign, where any job can participate effectively and just bash stuff to a pulp. As it is, only the jobs normally used for HNMs will get used in Legion.

saevel

02-08-2012, 07:37 PM

beg pardon? there's a reason people complain about pet job users soloing stuff too easily, and it's the pet. Granted, it isn't as easy as those commenters think it is, we pet players that succeed have developed a good bit of skill and we are using it, but most chat displays don't show all those actions due to used chat filters. But if you think pets suck in end-game you need to meet some different players. My pet jobs are REQUESTED to come, because they rock, and I'm only a slightly above average skill player with mediocre gear.

It DOES help if you pick your battles intelligently, but that's true of any job. I avoid anything with Ice Spikes like the plague when I'm soloing on dnc since I can't do anything about the spikes and the cool down on healing waltz makes it impractical, especially since the para may block the waltz, but as bard or pup I have no issues with the spikes. That's just an example, every job has their strengths and weaknesses, it's the player's job to know them and use their character intelligentally and/or build their group to compensate. Pet jobs certainly have their place in the mix, the obvious example is anything that can charm; send in the pets and get out of range; there are many other uses.

The issue with "pets suck" isn't so much that the pet sucks, but that their AI is retarded. BST is probably the best pet job due to their AI being direct and easy to control, you even get to pick the special move to use. SMN has serious issues outside of Abyssea, their avatars are just weak period and can only do cool things once per min or so. PUP suffers from it's AI having failed out of kindergarten and their only method of controlling it is via coaxing and hoping it doesn't decide to silena you instead of Cureing you. If SE would allow the PUP to directly control their pet, rather then rely on the maneuver mini-game, then PUP's usefulness would be vastly improved.

Pet jobs are powerful in the right situations, other times they get overshadowed, especially in high AoE damage environments which seem to be the direction SE is going.

Greatguardian

02-09-2012, 01:43 AM

In case it gives you some insight, I think when people say they want more "exhilaration", I tihnk it is because they expected this content to be more akin to The Swarm event assault- bashing down as many monsters as possible in a time limit. But instead, it's more just a big battlefield with a bunch of HNMs thrown in. I think people expected this to be something more akin to that or maybe Campaign, where any job can participate effectively and just bash stuff to a pulp. As it is, only the jobs normally used for HNMs will get used in Legion.

To expand upon this, the monsters themselves are just not very exciting.

Straight up. You can take that right to the devs. They're going about this whole "hard monster" thing backwards and, for some reason, seem completely dumbfounded when people just zerg them or don't fight them the way they want them to be fought.

If the FFXI Dev team wants to make interesting, engaging fights, they need to throw away their current AIs and read this shit right here:

1) Stop making everything have stupidly powerful AoE. All it does is encourage zerging. Focus on single-target attacks and then allow monsters to cast AoE spells.

2) Severely decrease monster Attack. Severely increase monster Base Damage. This allows for monsters to be tanked by players with high-defense and not by random DDs without the aid of Temp items.

3) Severely decrease monster HP. Severely increase monster Defense. Add -90% MDT. Do not modify Evasion. This prevents DDs from Hulk-Smashing things into oblivion, equalizes fight times, and increases the relative effects of non-damage Enmity abilities/spells.

4) Implement dynamic reaction-based AI. No, it's not too hard to do. If there's a problem coding it, ask one of the thousands of Sysadmins and programmers playing your game for help like every other successful gaming company in the world. That is to say, give players a reason to time their skills. Give players something to react to rather than auto-attacking giant Fortifications and pressing their WS macro when it's up.

4a) Use the battlefield. Diabolos is a good example of doing this right. Ifrit from FFXIV is a good example of doing this right. Force players to pay attention to their surroundings. Floor tiles may randomly change colors and have various buff/debuff effects attached to them, or straight up explode.

4b) NM Pets. We don't need them to be mage-killers that need to be held or kited. That's dumb. Give us a reason to kill these by making their presence power up the main NM. Have them cast buffs and cures on the NM if we leave them alive too long. Give them interesting kill conditions. For example: Elemental pets that have infinite HP, but instantly die if hit by a skillchain of the element that they are weak to.

4c) Shifting elemental/damage vulnerability types. Give us a visible indicator that tells us which of the 4 damage types (Blunt, H2H, Piercing, Slashing) and which of the 8 elements the monster is weak to (+50%-100% damage) at any given time. Randomly Cycle this indicator at random times or after using certain TP moves.

4d) Allow us to cripple the monsters if we're good enough. AV's 2hour mechanic was poorly implemented but well designed. Don't force us to use our 2-hours, but allow us to lock monster abilities or spells by reacting in a particular way that is non-random and is not job-specific within a certain window after ability usage. For example, lock BIGMONSTER_A from using Thunder Breath if the team fighting it initiates an Impaction or Fragmentation skillchain within 10 seconds of the move's completion.

5) When the players tell you (the Devs) a fight is boring, it's not because we don't know how to play the game. It's because the fight is bloody boring.

SpankWustler

02-09-2012, 02:07 AM

The sad thing is, they're totally capable of many if not all of those things (maybe not the AI, but there's one example that at least approaches everything else). This means they either implement a bunch of HP-sacks with horrible AoEs over and over due to limited manpower, or because they earnestly enjoy making HP-sacks with horrible AoEs on some level.

I'm imagining it now. A middle-aged Japanese programmer at the height of euphoria while fine-tuning exactly how many too many HP something should, and exactly how potent the Area-of-Effect attack that inflicts Amnesia and Poison and Doom and Low Self-Esteem should be compared to the Area-of-Effect attack that inflicts Silence and Petrification and Bind and Seasonal Depression.

In the end, he decides on "a lot" and "the same but with different graphics". We can not imagine the satisfaction he feels.

Yygdrasil

02-09-2012, 05:43 AM

The issue with "pets suck" isn't so much that the pet sucks, but that their AI is retarded. BST is probably the best pet job due to their AI being direct and easy to control, you even get to pick the special move to use. SMN has serious issues outside of Abyssea, their avatars are just weak period and can only do cool things once per min or so. PUP suffers from it's AI having failed out of kindergarten and their only method of controlling it is via coaxing and hoping it doesn't decide to silena you instead of Cureing you. If SE would allow the PUP to directly control their pet, rather then rely on the maneuver mini-game, then PUP's usefulness would be vastly improved.

Pet jobs are powerful in the right situations, other times they get overshadowed, especially in high AoE damage environments which seem to be the direction SE is going.

I'm sorry. I take issue with a lot of what you're saying. First of all, you start by saying that Pet AI sucks... and then go on to say that BST is just fine and functions well as it is.

Next you're saying that SMN sucks outside Abyssea. I'm sorry but no. I'm not sure about YOUR SMN, but mine does just fine outside Abyssea. In fact, I use mine to participate in Sea, Sky, HNMs, Assault, Salvage, Limbus and Nyzul Isle. I also managed to Solo Alexander Prime and Odin Prime using my SMN. Given the right gear (and not even the best of the best) a SMN can hold his/her own just fine outside of Abyssea. I even used my SMN to get through most of the CoP missions solo... BEFORE the level cap was raised.

As for PUP AI? Yeah... it's a little wonky, but they recently revamped the AI and it functions 100% better than it used to. A lot of our attachments were changed to work more effectively and our AI now prioritizes spells based on the needs of the master in ways that it didn't before. Playing on my PUP, I can do some serious work both solo and in a group. In Abyssea, my BLM Auto does more spike damage than most BLMs can do and it's because of the higher pet damage cap that we have. Sure, we're still at the mercy of our Auto recast timers, but that can be adjusted with the right attachments.

Lastly. I appreciate that you give the nod to Pet Job Powah at the end of your post, but in "high AoE scenarios" we're no worse off than any other job apart from tanks like NIN and PLD. Anything is squishy to a high AoE but there are ways to deal with that. A PUP can use a BLM frame and nuke from a distance outside the AoE. A SMN can just let their Avatar die and re-summon... it's basically what we do already. Our pets are expendable. BST can gear up with a ton of Pet Damage reduction gear and throw out their highest def pets, keep feeding them food and hope for the best.

Honestly, I don't play BST at all, but from what I've seen... if they can't participate in this event... it'll be the only one. 99/100 ain't bad all things considered.

Pet jobs are powerful in ANY situation. How powerful simply relies on who is playing the job.

Greatguardian

02-09-2012, 06:01 AM

Yygdrasil

02-09-2012, 06:55 AM

I'm sorry, I take issue with a lot of what you're saying.

You use your level 99 summoner in level 75 content? Okay.

You solo'd Alexander and Odin prime on Summoner at 99, when they had been solo'd by other jobs at 75/80 too? Okay.

You solo'd most of CoP as a 75 Summoner after the caps were taken off? Okay.

Nothing on your list impresses anyone.

Pet jobs are shit-tastic. A shit sandwich, if you will. Pet jobs are trash in any large group situation (6+). But don't worry, if it makes you feel good knowing that your super decked Summoner can do mildly unimpressive/mediocre things and keep up with obviously B-tier melee in events designed for players 25 levels lower than you then more power to you.

First of all. Lose the attitude and get off your soap box there boss. I don't remember insulting anyone or bragging about anything. All I'm saying is that Pet Jobs are more useful in all aspects of the game than he or you are giving them credit for.

Second, I admitted using SMN to solo most of CoP BEFORE the level cap was removed. I explicitly said BEFORE.

Third, I'm using my 99 SMN in low man attempts at old content that used to require full parties or alliances to complete. The challenge remains.

Fourth, I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm defending the jobs I enjoy playing and providing examples of how their abilities can be used by anyone who aspires to play the job rather than just bashing them.

Last... I don't recall ever saying that my SMN was super decked-out. On the contrary... I'm suggesting that the events that I participate in with my SMN are possible with a SMN in mediocre gear. That's the beauty of it.

If you feel like being an elitist dick, that's your prerogative... but next time, read more carefully before you just decide to rip into someone.

Greatguardian

02-09-2012, 07:03 AM

1) I like my attitude.

2) Your level 50 Summoner solo'd Ouryu? Solo'd Snoll while capped? Solo'd Promyvions at level 30/50? Prove it.

3) Nothing required alliances at 75 aside from AV and PW.

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTPwvGC0rY

5) Makes sense, considering gear does so very little for Summoner. Yet another reason why it has practically zero potential for growth beyond mediocrity.

Arcon

02-09-2012, 07:05 AM

Pet jobs are shit-tastic. A shit sandwich, if you will. Pet jobs are trash in any large group situation (6+). But don't worry, if it makes you feel good knowing that your super decked Summoner can do mildly unimpressive/mediocre things and keep up with obviously B-tier melee in events designed for players 25 levels lower than you then more power to you.

Sure, compared to the ideal setup maybe. Before people figured out how to do Abyssea properly (MM WHM + RR DD), what was used to kill all the big NMs with ease? Pets. Before people figured out how to do VW properly (spamming temps and stacking Save TP), what did people do to kill all harder NMs? Pets. New limit break fight? People who failed on ten different setups go in as five BST and just watch the Taru die. I've seen entire pet shells beeing built especially for Abyssea alone and quite a few have been out even before then. Pets have always been used successfully in most content I can think of (Odin, anyone?). While they may have never been as time efficient as the ideal setup, they sure as hell are efficient in terms of getting the job done.

The only thing about pets is that they rarely mix well with other setups. Either go full/most pets or fully traditional/alternative setup. Because of that pets and pet playstyle in general takes on a different role too. Sometimes, while not being time-efficient pet approaches would be space-efficient. That is why pets dominated the solo market back in the day (aside from some exceptionally skilled/geared RDM or BLM soloers, but the mage approach is in a similar category). Many pet jobs could solo NMs, quests and missions where others jobs would have trouble duo or even trio. I remember how often I wanted to read up on a fight and checked the testimonials online and saw a lot of SMN and BST there, but no sign of any other solo combination. It's part of the reason why I decided to level SMN in the first place and I can confirm that personally.

I have no problem with pet jobs having their own niche. As it is now, they're not big group friendly, simply because they're not as time-efficient, and these days time is valued more than anything. But they do have other uses and for that they perform extremely well.

Yygdrasil

02-09-2012, 07:16 AM

After I correct you this last time... I'm not going to bother with you.

I said I solod most of CoP on my own. Obviously there are missions that required help. Plenty of it can be done... and really quite easily using a kite method or by sneak-popping various NMs from the missions. I never said I did the WHOLE THING. You're reaching.

I wasn't limiting my examples of group play to alliances exclusively. You're reaching again.

Thanks to websense here where I work, I cant view the video you posted, but with a title like "TaruTaru can do anything" I'm sure it was pretty funny but completely off topic. I'll have to pull it up on my phone to accurately comment on that.

Gear does plenty for SMN. Gear allows you to reduce your perp cost, your BP timer, MP management and the effectiveness of your avatar in general. That being said, a naked SMN can do half decently for himself until his/her MP becomes an issue. Gear that helps mitigate that burden makes an enormous difference in longevity and DoT if nothing else.

Anyway, spew all you want. I didn't pick a fight with anyone. You attacking me for my opinions and misquoting me time and time again isn't worth the effort past this point.

I keep subscribed to this in order to stay updated with the forthcoming End Game event I'm looking forward to, not to argue with you. This thread has derailed enough.

Greatguardian

02-09-2012, 07:16 AM

Sparthos

02-09-2012, 08:01 AM

I beg to differ. Summoners a powerhouse in WoE.

SMN is only a powerhouse because thar event spams high damage AOE that wipes everyone else.

In any setting where instant wipes aren't present SMNs damage is mediocre, hate-free damage is no longer needed thanks to improvements in MP regeneration and the class is light-years behind other classes like any other pet class.

Yygdrasil

02-09-2012, 08:05 AM

SMN is only a powerhouse because that event spams high damage AOE that wipes everyone else.

So we agree. Because I that's all I was referencing. I wasn't talking about any other event. I was only talking about WoE. I say SMN is powerhouse in WoE, you say "Yes they are". Nuff said.

saevel

02-09-2012, 08:13 AM

SMN is only a powerhouse because thar event spams high damage AOE that wipes everyone else.

In any setting where instant wipes aren't present SMNs damage is mediocre, hate-free damage is no longer needed thanks to improvements in MP regeneration and the class is light-years behind other classes like any other pet class.

No use, their pulling the "I'm a special snow flake" line.

SMN as a job is broke, their pets are weak. Other then PD or SMN procs, why invite a SMN at all. If you want magic damage bring a BLM, if you want melee damage bring one of the long list of DDs. About the only thing SMN is good for is that it's pet is disposable and can easily be brought back, so a few SMN's can just keep tossing pets at something while running away.

Which brings me to a personal beef I had. Awhile back our LS decided to just do a few WoE to screw around. WoE seems ridiculously hard for PUG / random people but it's quite easy for a coordinated LS working together. We did a bunch until one time, as we're clearing floors and killing everything we see a bunch of pets go running off. Few minutes later all hell broke loose as every single enemy along with the zone mega boss came running through. The SMN's had pulled the mega boss and it brought everything with it, those adds wiped our shell. Then for the rest of the fight everyone who entered the zone was instantly wiped by the adds or the zone boss, the only ones who got to stay alive long where the SMN's with their pets. They effectively ruined the entire run for everyone except their little group. From that point on, every run we'd try to do we'd see some SMN group ruining the zone. Sure they got the mega boss kill, but without killing the floor mobs nobody else in the zone built up enough points to get decent loot.

Sparthos

02-09-2012, 08:17 AM

beg pardon? there's a reason people complain about pet job users soloing stuff too easily, and it's the pet. Granted, it isn't as easy as those commenters think it is, we pet players that succeed have developed a good bit of skill and we are using it, but most chat displays don't show all those actions due to used chat filters. But if you think pets suck in end-game you need to meet some different players. My pet jobs are REQUESTED to come, because they rock, and I'm only a slightly above average skill player with mediocre gear.

Certainly isn't Voidwatch or anything relevant to today's endgame you're doing then. So pray tell, what is it?

It DOES help if you pick your battles intelligently, but that's true of any job. I avoid anything with Ice Spikes like the plague when I'm soloing on dnc since I can't do anything about the spikes and the cool down on healing waltz makes it impractical, especially since the para may block the waltz, but as bard or pup I have no issues with the spikes. That's just an example, every job has their strengths and weaknesses, it's the player's job to know them and use their character intelligentally and/or build their group to compensate. Pet jobs certainly have their place in the mix, the obvious example is anything that can charm; send in the pets and get out of range; there are many other uses.

Anything that can charm? That's your great place for pet classes? I guess that sums up my argument that pet classes are pathetic in this game relative to other classes.

Pet jobs tend to be good in content with weak/fodder mob which is why BST was so desired in Dynamis but so can alot of other classes like DNC THF NIN BLU RDM.

Pets can tank weak mobs reasonably, act as a tank and facilitate solo. Put that same BST in any event where the mob is tough and the pets ability to do damage plummets sharply, the master runs a huge deficit relative to other DD (BST has no native JA to increase its damage) and the job is dead in the water. The Killer effect boosts are a step in the right direction but it's situational and will not change the fact that a BST without a pet is already in trouble.

And how are you gonna have a pet when everything spams AOEs that wipe your pet?

The fiend is Extremely Vulnerable to Leech Family abilities!
Sparthosx uses Call Beast
Pil readies Flank Opening
FatsoFargann was defeated by Pil
Call Beast (4:50)

Checkmate.

A similar situation plagues PUP as emphasis on the automaton takes away from your own damage (maneuver delay), DAD nuking is largely unnecessary, the pet is frail (Sharpshot damage at a distance is pathetic) and you have no real incentive to field the class. Why would I bring a PUP/BST over a DRG? SAM? WAR? RNG? MNK? DRK? THF? COR?

SE doesn't know or care. Yeah it's a tightrope to balance these classes but as it stands BST is complete shit against HNMs with PUP being slightly better off but way behind any DD with a proper support line.

Sparthos

02-09-2012, 08:23 AM

So we agree. Because I that's all I was referencing. I wasn't talking about any other event. I was only talking about WoE. I say SMN is powerhouse in WoE, you say "Yes they are". Nuff said.

How sad, your SMN is best at an event that is inherently flawed. It's not "powerhouse" either, just the only job that can take the AOEs, is easy to manage in a PUG event like WoE and that all plans to be undone when SE scales down AOEs.

Once the AOEs become manageable, SMN is doomed.

But you can't see that I guess. Or maybe you do and could care less.

Sparthos

02-09-2012, 08:38 AM

I'm sorry. I take issue with a lot of what you're saying. First of all, you start by saying that Pet AI sucks... and then go on to say that BST is just fine and functions well as it is.

Next you're saying that SMN sucks outside Abyssea. I'm sorry but no. I'm not sure about YOUR SMN, but mine does just fine outside Abyssea. In fact, I use mine to participate in Sea, Sky, HNMs, Assault, Salvage, Limbus and Nyzul Isle. I also managed to Solo Alexander Prime and Odin Prime using my SMN. Given the right gear (and not even the best of the best) a SMN can hold his/her own just fine outside of Abyssea. I even used my SMN to get through most of the CoP missions solo... BEFORE the level cap was raised.

So your SMN was good at lvl75 content at lvl99, break out the champagne.

Against anything currently designed for lvl99, SMN is in trouble and loses to any number of DD or support classes. Earthen Armor is neat but a BRD can simply Scherzo the party, the timer on pacts limits your damage output and avatar melee is pathetic.

SMN is designed for a game that has long since checked out. It'd take an overhaul to bring the job up to the new par set by other classes.

As for PUP AI? Yeah... it's a little wonky, but they recently revamped the AI and it functions 100% better than it used to. A lot of our attachments were changed to work more effectively and our AI now prioritizes spells based on the needs of the master in ways that it didn't before. Playing on my PUP, I can do some serious work both solo and in a group. In Abyssea, my BLM Auto does more spike damage than most BLMs can do and it's because of the higher pet damage cap that we have. Sure, we're still at the mercy of our Auto recast timers, but that can be adjusted with the right attachments.

PUPs AI is significantly better but the class still has issues securing its way in a party when so many DD can beat it and the pet is killed off by a stiff breeze.

Abyssea is proc, lock and drop it. You don't really need any of the classes other than the ones that can proc so your story about PUP beating BLM is silly. My COR can do 65000 DMG with a brew on, does that mean COR is good in Abyssea? Nope, because all that matters there are procs when you're 19 levels over Vision, 14 levels over Scars and 9 levels over Heroes.

Lastly. I appreciate that you give the nod to Pet Job Powah at the end of your post, but in "high AoE scenarios" we're no worse off than any other job apart from tanks like NIN and PLD. Anything is squishy to a high AoE but there are ways to deal with that. A PUP can use a BLM frame and nuke from a distance outside the AoE. A SMN can just let their Avatar die and re-summon... it's basically what we do already. Our pets are expendable. BST can gear up with a ton of Pet Damage reduction gear and throw out their highest def pets, keep feeding them food and hope for the best.

In high DMG scenarios you can Scherzo DD, use Rangers/Corsairs/Black Mages/Blue Mages who will all outdamage a Summoner/Puppetmaster from a distance. The puppet also has issues locking down the elements which can be highly annoying against certain targets.

Throw out the highest DEF pets? Against anything with a strong AOE, a BST will not be able to keep up with Reward timers and the pet is dead meat.

Yygdrasil

02-09-2012, 08:57 AM

Echo... Echo... Echo...

Glamdring

02-09-2012, 09:58 AM

1st, for pup it was voidwatch, but I find the entire system of voidwatch to be like masturbation-all the work of sex with none of the enjoyment and no payoff- so I don't go anymore, but yes, we did win. As to beast and my pup, mostly I stay in GoV, the level 100 mobs because I like the fight and I hate Aby easy-mode. As to aby, I mostly solo seal mobs, it's easy enough that I don't worry about procs since I can beat the seal/+2 mobs I need for my AF3 with only moderate effort, so just repeating for the random 1 drop doesn't bother me. WoE, this place is made for pets, and with the devs looking at toning down the insty-kill AoE crap (which, let's face it, is offing anything but paladins in 1 shot) we'll only be getting better. I have to admit, I'm looking forward to WoE on ranger though, just because I like the play style. Legion looks like it's going to work fine with a well-played pet from the bits and pieces I've read about so far, since I have yet to see one of those asinine proc systems being implemented, and the new Nyzul, and the reworked Salvage I haven't seen anything to crush my hopes yet.

This game for me isn't about being able to say "I beat Mob X in 45 seconds", or even that I beat anything at all. I don't brag, I simply get things done. THAT I find fun. That isn't to say there aren't things I don't complain about and try to get changed; I was a huge proponent of the "pupdate" and probably the most vocal on the forum about getting the stormwalker auto spells beyond level 74, it happened, I'm quiet now. My current bitch is the TH ability, I'm more than a bit discontent that rather than fix the ability so that it's worth building above TH3 the plan is to nerf it on everything else, and my reading of the complaints seems to indicate that I'm in the majority, in fact the only people in the minority are the Devs.

Summoner as a job needs work, I'll concede that, but good summoners do just fine. In many ways their the polar opposite of beasts in how their job works, but they DO work. Basically, anything my beast can't handle a summoner can, and vice-versa. The main reason I never levelled summoner was my crappy elvan MP pool, but with end-game gear out now it's on my to-do list, although way down that list since I have 2 good 99 pet jobs already; dark is probably next simply because I have a truckload of gear/seals in storage for it. Even if SE doesn't rework summoner at all I'd be happy to play it now, but I understand a summoner overhaul is in the works anyway.

All the pet AI has it's advantages and disadvantages. I can take my beast and use a pet that will fight the target and any adds all at once. If I prefer control I take my pup since it will stay on what I tell it to, AND I can choose the damage type/defense while I EVA tank the adds. If I need the ability to replace pets at full strength in a relative hurry, that's summoner, the king of zombie pet kills; it may not be glamorous, but it IS effective. If I just want it to support me as a general DD melee, bring on the dragoon. No pet job is perfect, which puts them perfectly in line with the 16 non-pet jobs that aren't perfect either.

I actually use my pets in large-scale activities quite a bit, unless we're short on thief, ranger or dancer, or I just feel like bringing the bard. The usual role is crowd control (when we decide to kill rather than sleep), soloing adds so the rest of the group can deal with the target, but I do just fine when there are no adds and I get to fight the target. The main difference is that I can't use my pet to tank, but if I'm not there for crowd control I'm a DD, so I don't EXPECT my pets to tank (the exception being a whm auto, then I'm DD, my auto back-up healer/enfeebler).

My bard, ranger, thief and dancer all get their uses too, based on a combination of what I want to do and what I'm in the mood to play. I expect the same will hold true as I get around to leveling the other jobs. My pet jobs will always shine though as the jobs I go to when I just need to get things done... because using them I can.

Andon that note, I'm done with this thread, until more information comes out.

Arcon

02-09-2012, 03:46 PM

@Arcon, So we agree that they're trash in large-group situations. I'll concede exempting the situation where the entire group is pet jobs, though to say that those groups do things efficiently is a joke. They can get the job done, sure. They can throw an infinite number of disposable pokemon at things. That doesn't make them efficient. It makes them mildly viable in large numbers. Kinda like Battlecruisers. I mean, seriously, who masses Battlecruisers? A couple of Wraiths or Valkyries can obliterate them. But hey, get enough together and they can Yamato all ur base.

I guess I can agree with you, although I'm no longer sure what your point is. All Yygdrasil said was pet jobs have their uses and are great at what they do. So you're effectively agreeing with him as well? Or did you just come in to point out that pet jobs aren't the FFXI overgods in every possible situation?

SMN is only a powerhouse because thar event spams high damage AOE that wipes everyone else.

Yeah, like all endgame events, you know. The only reason this no longer applies to VW is because most people can spam temporary items.

No use, their pulling the "I'm a special snow flake" line.

Well, because we are? Why are people here so intent on comparing SMN to jobs like WAR in terms of DD or utility? That's like saying a WAR is crappy healer and thus has no right to exist. Pet jobs are special, because they occupy a niche in this game's job utility spectrum. They are good for certain situations and great for some of them. They're bad for the usual event situation (and only if you try to mix them with a regular setup or if you care for being time-efficient), but guess what, so is BLM. Are you seriously telling me you'd invite BLM to VW if it wasn't for procs? As what, Impact-debuffer? Does that make BLM a sucky job and it fails?

SMN as a job is broke, their pets are weak. Other then PD or SMN procs, why invite a SMN at all. If you want magic damage bring a BLM, if you want melee damage bring one of the long list of DDs. About the only thing SMN is good for is that it's pet is disposable and can easily be brought back, so a few SMN's can just keep tossing pets at something while running away.

So now you're even describing exactly why SMN are so good and useful. And in the next paragraph you go on to describe how a few SMN survived and fought a battle with a shitload of adds that wiped your group and several other people who entered. I'm really not sure if you're arguing for or against them. I understand your personal beef (I have the same with shitty Dynamis BST hoarding mobs and being general douchebags), but to me that's more of a compliment to the utility of the class.

Everyone arguing against pet jobs here is trying to argue why they suck in the regular party/alliance setup. Who cares? Pet jobs aren't played this way, they never were. It's not about the strength of pets it's about the gameplay style of pet jobs that make them powerful. Why do you think SMN has such a low avatar recast time? Why do you think BST can equip so much PDT for their pets (more than some jobs for themselves) on top of their natural DT reduction and then proceed to cure for thousands of HP?

How sad, your SMN is best at an event that is inherently flawed. It's not "powerhouse" either, just the only job that can take the AOEs, is easy to manage in a PUG event like WoE and that all plans to be undone when SE scales down AOEs.

Once the AOEs become manageable, SMN is doomed.

Funny what people consider doomed. SMN will still be doing it, and with fewer people than other setups, and still with less effort required, same goes for other events (yes even Voidwatch, especially after they cap blue/red lights you'll see an influx of pet shells go and do their thing to almost any NM they want with almost 0 risk involved).

I really don't understand what people arguing against pet jobs are saying. We know pets don't mix well with a regular playstyle. We're just saying we excel at other things (and I don't mean lowlevel content, I mean lowman any content). Simple trade-off between time-efficiency and space-efficiency. People are so focussed on getting shit done quickly that everything that doesn't fall into that line of thinking sucks ass. And as long as you'll have that attitude, everything that isn't a heavy melee, heavy healer or heavy buffer will suck ass. And just for the record SMN fits the latter as well. Even disregarding Perfect Defense, you're telling me you don't want 25% AoE Double Attack? 7MP AoE Refresh? And people saying you don't need Earthen Armor when you have Sentinel's Scherzo, sure, why take 80% DT when you can have 25% DT? Noobs.

You're basically taking away the justification to be on any job that doesn't fit into those three categories with your line of thinking. And I'm not talking about pet jobs being broken, I'm talking about they could never, ever, live up to your standards unless pets are made equally powerful as player melees. And if that should ever happen, no other player melee will ever be needed. That would not be a design flaw by SE, it would be a flaw in your mentality not to accept the fact that there's more than one way to play, because you shun everything that isn't ideal.

SpankWustler

02-09-2012, 03:48 PM

I'm hesitant to join in, but I guess this discussion is relevant to Legion since it's mainly about pet jobs in the context of large-scale events.

Pet jobs are powerful in ANY situation. How powerful simply relies on who is playing the job.

The opposite is closer to the truth. There is relatively very little that a player or that player's group can do to make a pet more powerful. There's more than ever before that can be done to enhance the function of pets, but that is still not a drop in the bucket in some group scenarios.

Obviously it would be broken if pets and players were on equal footing, because there's a player behind every disposable pet, but there are certain things (status ailments and extremely damaging attacks are the worst) that are easily dealt with by any functional group but stop certain pets dead. Literally, in most cases.

That's assuming the guy with a bunny even minds if his pet is paralyzed or thirty yalms away or dead, since it can not benefit from any offensive buffs from other players which are common in large group activities. The largest contribution to damage it can make in that scenario will probably be through Killer Instinct.

I realize my examples are a bit Beastmaster-centric. That's because I really enjoy the job. That doesn't magically change the job's poor performance in vital areas.

Runespider

02-09-2012, 08:35 PM

Arcon

02-09-2012, 09:21 PM

I keep hearing people say it's hard to test legion on the test server and the reps are having to step in to organise them for any testing to happen at all, didn't they say Legion would scale to the number of participants?

It does. People have already finished successful runs (as in, defeated 1-2 NMs) duo. Also, the final release will allow 3-36 participants, currently there's only 1-2 players allowed in (unless they changed that by now), so it's hard to judge the actual challenge, but it's apparently doable. Doesn't say much about the final release, though.

SpankWustler

02-09-2012, 09:35 PM

I keep hearing people say it's hard to test legion on the test server and the reps are having to step in to organise them for any testing to happen at all, didn't they say Legion would scale to the number of participants? I'm guessing they either scrapped that idea or it sucks as bad as the other scalable stuff they tried to add over the years.

36 players or nothing?

According to the most recent quote that mentioned the scaling system, there are basically two modes. One for ~18 people and one for 19~ people. So, it does scale but not to a large degree.

The intent is seemingly for smaller groups to kill fewer monsters but still reap some rewards.

Mahoro

02-10-2012, 02:47 AM

I'm a career SMN and I'll be the first to admit SMN is extremely handicapped by its 45-second BP/JA timers in a way other jobs aren't, but I pretty much agreed with everything Arcon said above.

SMN always has a place in my LS's big-group activities. Here are just 7:

1) procs in VW
2) Perfect Defense for AV/ADL
3) another stun that surprisingly sticks longer than you'd think
4) holding mobs where death is meted out handily in ways not easily preventable (Aello, Ig-Alima, Botulus Rex, all Mantis)
5) EVA down and ATTK down debuffs that stick for quite awhile, and make a difference in some key VW fights
6) 5 minute AOE haste (assuming the SMN is well-geared/skilled)
7) Earthen Armor (Scherzo caps at 45%, what people WOULDN'T want a move that stacks with Scherzo to 80% mitigation?)

The people trying to compare it to a WAR are obviously going to find shortcomings....what melee wants to be compared to an Ukon WAR? SMN will never be DD on that level, because it would be too overpowered in solo situations. But what SMN does, it does well.

The biggest issue is that with temp items and spammable magic/WS, SMN got left behind because of the BP/JA timer. Hopefully SE will fix that.

Yygdrasil

02-10-2012, 02:48 AM

@Arcon: You and I can be friends.

Yygdrasil

02-10-2012, 02:50 AM

Aww.... Mahoro! How did I not meet you when I was on Lakshmi!?

Friend Count: 2

Gettin there...

saevel

02-10-2012, 09:03 AM

Yygdrasil

02-10-2012, 09:29 AM

Remove the timer completely? No... that would be absurd. Doing that would make SMNs TOOOOOOOOO powerful for our own good. Think in terms of Abyssea for a second... if nothing else.

My Tarutaru SMN has 1800mp. Let's say on average my BPs cost 150mp and deal around 4k damage. What you're suggesting would turn me into a hate-free BLM with no casting time. I could effectively nuke back to back with Diamond Dust until my MP went dry... and then pop temps like ethers/elixers/dusts to keep it going... not to mention having a COR, BRD and RDM backing me up with refresh out the ying yang.

150 / 1800 = 12 BPs (not counting any form of refresh)

12 X 4000 = 52,000 damage in less than 1 minute.

You just turned a SMN into a brew without a timer.

Mahoro

02-10-2012, 10:03 AM

Those are all nice, but none of them scream *must have* or *OMG Awesome Sauce* and many of those interfere with each other due to that damn timer.

I don't hate pet jobs, I just really wish SE would get around to fixing them. In SMN's case just remove the damn BP timers so SMN can be awesome. That and make your summons have higher more specialized stats.

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

Greatguardian

02-10-2012, 10:14 AM

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

Literally every job in the game can outdamage Avatars in a group situation (6+ people). It's going a bit beyond "Not the best".

Before I'm asked for proof, 1 word answer: Haste.

Economizer

02-10-2012, 10:18 AM

Literally every job in the game can outdamage

Before I'm asked for proof

Awe... but then how do we get you to math out 5 WHM + 1 BRD vs. 6 SMN? Pretty please with maple sugar on top?

Greatguardian

02-10-2012, 10:44 AM

Awe... but then how do we get you to math out 5 WHM + 1 BRD vs. 6 SMN? Pretty please with maple sugar on top?

Wait is that a serious question? 5 Mjollnirs with March+March+Minuet versus 6 Avatars? I know you know just how strong Whm can smack when they want to.

I'm referring to any single job versus any single Summoner with the other slots already filled anyways, as this is the only relevant comparison in large groups.

Economizer

02-10-2012, 11:24 AM

As expected your answer was sufficiently entertaining (although it didn't beat the projections on the very remote possibility of a serious, math filled beat down of current avatar mechanics against that of a group of haste boosted clerics).

Wait is that a serious question?

Perhaps I should have asked about four White Mages being able to beat the game? :D

5 Mjollnirs with March+March+Minuet versus 6 Avatars? I know you know just how strong Whm can smack when they want to.

I dunno, those wily Summoners might be fighting stuff that is strong against blunt damage and isn't undead. :p Plus I'm pretty sure there are no Mjollnirs on my server yet.

Kimble

02-10-2012, 11:32 AM

This seems to be the biggest problem with getting SMN proper, good buffs. To many of the, get butt hurt when people give out the cold hard fact that SMN DD is lacking to any other job that can DD and go on about how awesome their job is instead of agreeing with the truth and asking for buffs to fix it.

Afania

02-10-2012, 11:40 AM

Those are all nice, but none of them scream *must have* or *OMG Awesome Sauce* and many of those interfere with each other due to that damn timer.

I don't hate pet jobs, I just really wish SE would get around to fixing them. In SMN's case just remove the damn BP timers so SMN can be awesome. That and make your summons have higher more specialized stats.

Actually PD is one of the most game changing ability in this game. I wouldn't say it's not "OMG Awesome sauce".

Mahoro

02-10-2012, 01:49 PM

Literally every job in the game can outdamage Avatars in a group situation (6+ people). It's going a bit beyond "Not the best".

Before I'm asked for proof, 1 word answer: Haste.

Which I wasn't addressing in the posts you are quoting. I listed 7 reasons why SMN has a place in large-group events, the confluence of which actually gives them a unique place in such events. Damage wasn't one of them. I specifically said we are hampered by our JA/BP timers. I am under no illusion that SMN can out-DD many Hasted melee, except perhaps on some heavily melee-resistant mobs.

But if you want to TALK about Haste, I might as well reiterate that 1 of the 7 reasons I listed is 5:30 minute AOE Haste, which enables some of the very "outdamaging" you cite. With the caliber of WHM I've played with in PUG's, and VW mobs that cause such bad AOE that the WHM is chaincasting Cure V and VI, it is quite common for a melee to go without Haste for most, if not all, of the battle. The SMN is sometimes more reliable in keeping up a Haste rotation than the WHM. One button press and it's taken care of for 5:30 minutes (or less if the SMN isn't capped skill). That's quite a bit beyond "Not the best."

saevel

02-10-2012, 08:23 PM

Which I wasn't addressing in the posts you are quoting. I listed 7 reasons why SMN has a place in large-group events, the confluence of which actually gives them a unique place in such events. Damage wasn't one of them. I specifically said we are hampered by our JA/BP timers. I am under no illusion that SMN can out-DD many Hasted melee, except perhaps on some heavily melee-resistant mobs.

But if you want to TALK about Haste, I might as well reiterate that 1 of the 7 reasons I listed is 5:30 minute AOE Haste, which enables some of the very "outdamaging" you cite. With the caliber of WHM I've played with in PUG's, and VW mobs that cause such bad AOE that the WHM is chaincasting Cure V and VI, it is quite common for a melee to go without Haste for most, if not all, of the battle. The SMN is sometimes more reliable in keeping up a Haste rotation than the WHM. One button press and it's taken care of for 5:30 minutes (or less if the SMN isn't capped skill). That's quite a bit beyond "Not the best."

*Cough*

Jobs are not judged by what they can do at their best, their judged by what they do on average. Average SMN is a waste of a slot outside of BP procs. Super dedicated SMN can earn their slot, but still not anything super OMG. PD, which is a 2hr mind you, is the only thing right now that SMN really has to offer. You mentioned haste, yet I can count on one hand the number of SMN's I've seen in my 8~9yrs of playing that actually attempted to maintain haste as a buff, and not a single one kept it up longer then 15 min. When people want the haste spell, they think RDM and WHM, not SMN, even though pretty much any support job /WHM can do haste for awhile now. Heck SMN can't even heal now due to all them running to /RDM and never ~ever~ casting cure or haste on party members, even when one is dieing right in front of them.

I can go on and on about how bad that job is broke right now, half of it is that players have become to numb to how broke SMN is that they don't even try anymore. At least PUP and BST can always fall back to being a generic melee #238, SMN doesn't even have that option.

Again this isn't me hating on the job, I really do wish SE would fix the damn job because it has amazing potential. Removal of BP timers needs to be done ASAP, greatly reducing perpetuation costs, and some way to transfer masters buff to summoned pet similar to what atma's did inside abysesa. If your avatars had specialized stats, some having high attack / accuracy / haste / STR / DEX, others having high MAB / INT / MND and let Titan have high defense / VIT / -DT and +enmity. Then we'd be talking about a powerful job.

saevel

02-10-2012, 08:30 PM

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

Emp WAR / MNK, pimped DRG, generic SAM, pretty much all the "DD"s. WHM's super cures. PLD's Brochain / Aegis (although tanking isn't much these days). BRD's super buffs, COR's super buffs, QD and WF. SCH's massive assortment of JA's, or even their 2H which is a miniature brew (although limited outside abyssea). BLM's mega nukes. Heck even broken RDM has more use's then SMN.

SMN has ... BP procs and .... PD zergs. BP procs are only VWNM, which is currently the ~only~ "end game" available, once Legion / Nyzule get back SMN's usefulness drops to near zero.

And removing the BP timers would not break SMN. Summing time + readying time + dismissal time would ensure there was a limit on what they could do. If removal is too much, then make them 15s. There is no excuse why SMN can only do one cool thing per 60s for each type of move. You can either do stoneskin, or heal or remove status ailments, but no combination of the three. Heck turn it into a charge system at the absolute minimum so unused 60s time periods could stack up to be used in sequence.

Mahoro

02-10-2012, 10:12 PM

You do say super dedicated SMN can earn their slot in endgame, which is all I was arguing when listing the 7 reasons SMN has a role at the moment.

Never claimed "Super OMG" status on anything, those are qualifiers YOU are introducing to the mix. In any event, applying "must have" or "OMG awesome sauce" to some of the stuff in your list is a bit of a stretch to say the least ("Generic SAM", "SCH JA's", and "pretty much all the DD's" don't exactly take my breath away, barring Embrava.) Regarding "BLM nukes", SMN can mostly hold their own with proper gear and 5/5 merit pacts, the only difference being the 45 second limiter since BLM's can now spam spells with abandon in endgame 2012. And by your own yardstick of judging jobs what they can do "on average" the list is also stretching as well, since you are including Empys, Relic, and 2hrs. As for /RDM, I actually don't agree they should run /RDM in the days of temp spamming/Abyssea. I always go /WHM and help heal in between 45 second BP's, what the hell else would I do? Believe me, the WHM in my ally are grateful for the help.

I actually agree with the latter half of both of your posts, especially what you say about BP timers. I agree the job needs serious fixing on the timer end. Not abolishment of the timer, but a lowering of the BP- delay cap.

Economizer

02-10-2012, 10:21 PM

Summoner, while a great concept and a wonderful looking job, could definitely use some tweaks to make it more useful in more varied content.

Heck turn it into a charge system at the absolute minimum so unused 60s time periods could stack up to be used in sequence.

This would probably be interesting at least. It is really too bad they don't test extreme mechanics on the test server with the statement "this will probably never be implemented, but we want to get data from it being tested" like certain other gaming companies test some things.

Back to your idea, I like the concept of this at very least, it would preserve the usefulness of BP reduction gear and they could copy it from Scholar (although they could keep separate timers for Rage/Ward to make it more unique and retain balance). Thus at low levels you'd only get one charge with a sixty second timer, or basically, no change. But at higher levels you'd get more charges and maybe even a little recast reduction. They could increase the recast cap as well.

Then, on top of this they could have a job ability Summoners could spam that sacrifices a large amount of MP and causes a hate spike to get more charges (or some mixture of those as a cost of usage). You'd be able to have emnityless actions, but if you wanted an extra "oomph" you could start dipping into the monster's hate list (which would be more risky solo, so this mechanic would be great for parties).

On Avatar auto-attack rounds there might be better suggestions but I'll give a few.

Summoning Magic Skill as their weapon "skill" in terms of attack/accuracy boost (if it isn't used already).
Enspells based on Summoning Magic Skill like many have suggested.
Temper effect based on Summoning Magic Skill after obtaining 300 base skill.
"Job Ability" category haste based on Summoning Magic Skill
With the current 500 skill effectiveness cap, Skill/20 -> Haste% or 500/20 -> 25% "Job Ability" Haste.

This in tandem with other tweaks will greatly help auto-attack damage (and if some are too powerful they should either not get implemented or as an alternative be based on Summoning Magic currently on the wearer rather then on cast of the avatar, which would force more tactical trade offs).

Greatguardian

02-10-2012, 11:28 PM

I'll never claim that Summoner can't be useful in a support role. It's just not as useful as, well, any other Support-class job in that role. It could be worse, and it's certainly less of a gap than it is with Damage, but Summoner is really no better than Red Mage in a pure support role (and Rdm is pretty bad in that role right now).

I don't want to hijack the thread too much, but honestly the entire BP system needs to be scrapped if Summoner wants to become a worthwhile job. It's just plain bad design.

Mahoro

02-11-2012, 02:58 AM

I find fault with the statement that it isn't as useful as ANY other support class job in that role (some of the buffs on my list are unique to SMN, don't overwrite other buffs, and one is the best version of the Haste spell) but I agree that in the FF if 2012, the BP system needs to be reworked.

Yygdrasil

02-11-2012, 04:52 AM

I'll never claim that Summoner can't be useful in a support role.

I don't want to hijack the thread too much, but honestly the entire BP system needs to be scrapped if Summoner wants to become a worthwhile job. It's just plain bad design.

I believe you already claimed that SMN can't be useful EVER. iirc... "EVER" inherently includes "SOMETIMES". Pick a side man...

Also: It's far too late to try and prevent this train from derailing. Several people... yourself included... have poked the proverbial bear when you started slandering SMN.

Welcome to the Thunderdome

SpankWustler

02-11-2012, 05:01 AM

Welcome to the Thunderdome

This opens discussion of a whole other pet job altogether...

http://blog.gamesylvania.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/masterblaster.jpg

Greatguardian

02-11-2012, 05:02 AM

I believe you already claimed that SMN can't be useful EVER. iirc... "EVER" inherently includes "SOMETIMES". Pick a side man...

Also: It's far too late to try and prevent this train from derailing. Several people... yourself included... have poked the proverbial bear when you started slandering SMN.

Welcome to the Thunderdome

The proverbial bear is everything that's wrong with Summoner.

The job will never see a meaningful fix as long as retards run around screaming to everyone who will listen that it's "Just fine how it is". Summoner is terrible and you are doing nothing but hurting it by pretending otherwise.

@Maho, Eva down and Attack down are fairly insignificant. Attack down will hardly affect a monster you're fighting with 6+ people unless you have a 2,000+ Defense Paladin, and Eva Down is meaningless for most decent melees. Earthen Armor and Perfect Defense are the only things on your list that Summoner really brings to the table, and EA on its own is hardly as competitive as what most any other Support class brings in.

Haste is also Haste. I really do wonder at the average quality of Whms that people on these forums play with when they assert that Whms don't put Haste up and never have 50% Cure potency gear (Not you, but a common argument elsewhere on the forums). Summoner isn't bringing anything with Hastega but a bit of MP that the mage isn't spending.

Mahoro

02-11-2012, 05:40 AM

5:30 AOE Haste > 3:00 single-target Haste. And yes, plenty of WHM's I've played with either don't put Haste on all the melee, or they do it once and then are too busy chaincasting Cure V/VI or stat-na'ing to keep up a Haste rotation. IMO, the best SMN will go /WHM and help out with curing and stat-na'ing in between BPs.

The unique stuff SMN brings to the table is one thing, but it's the confluence of all 7 things on my list that makes SMN have a place in my LS activities, at least as much as SCH or RDM. PD has a niche application, but certain fights are impossible without it. EA is just as useful as BRD Scherzo since it stacks, EVA-down makes a big difference on certain fights on which even "decent melees" are stymied (e.g., Lancing Lamorak), SMN stun has a nice-sized length and speed of cast, SMN nukes are helpful on stuff like Botulus Rex, and SMN can hold certain very dangerous mobs which mete out death willy-nilly.

Although I am hesitant to mention VW as it provides SMN with an "artificial" role in the ally, I note that the vast majority of VW /shouts ask for 1 SMN as opposed to other niche proc jobs. Certainly, SMN is in no worse position than NIN, PUP, BST, SCH, RDM. Nobody says "OMG we must have a SMN, NIN, PUP, BST, SCH, RDM," but each job when well-played brings stuff to the table. As for Legion, time will tell.

Greatguardian

02-11-2012, 05:47 AM

Draylo

02-11-2012, 05:58 AM

SMN is in desperate need of DEV attention, please stop trying to pretend everything is well.

Mahoro

02-11-2012, 06:18 AM

A RDM can contribute 6 minute Haste, Phalanx 2, Dia 3, and a faster (9 second recast in ideal conditions) stun. Every other nuking mage can contribute more overall magic damage on fights like Botulus Rex, and more importantly they're able to deal it consecutively rather than waiting 45 seconds between casts. Rex is not something you want to leave alive very long, if you know what I mean.

Like I said, Earthen Armor is really the only thing going for it outside of its 2hr.

You essentially listed the unique things another job can bring to the table, two of which SMN can't even do so those are inapplicable to my larger point that SMN has a place in endgame. For the other two, fast Stun and 6 minute (non-AOE) Haste are great for RDM, but it doesn't automatically guarantee them a place over a SMN. (EDIT: It's possible SMN Hastega is now 6 minutes, I admit I haven't tested since level cap.) Both SMN and RDM can be characterized as "jack of all trades" jobs. Unfortunately, RDM have gotten the raw end of the deal lately and I don't see RDM played in group situations as much anymore, which is sad because I like that job. I am aware of the consecutive nuking thing though, having mentioned that in two of my posts already. I WILL say that the manaburn Rexes I have been on have ended up with BLM's eating dirt more easily than the SMN.

Draylo, I agree SMN is in desperate need of DEV attention, I think SMN who pretend everything is well are fooling themselves. If your comment was directed to me, I never expressed that sentiment.

Yygdrasil

02-11-2012, 06:40 AM

I agree that changes need to be made. I just don't agree that it needs to be a complete overhaul. I've stated before that a reduction to the BP timer floor from 45 seconds to 30 would make a huge impact on the job as it currently is. I also agree that our avatars need to have their base melee damage increased to be at least moderate as opposed to doing nothing more than offsetting an NM's auto-regen (if applicable).

Whatever they have planned for spirits had better be life-changing or it might as well be scrapped. I really can't picture much of anything that they could do to make spirits anything more than Siphon Sacrifices.

I cant vouch for everyone here, but I never said that we were "Fine just the way we are". All I'm doing to saying that we're not the utter and complete garbage that some people are saying. We have our uses and we have our things that we're good at... but as with any job, of course we need to have some thing changed and adjusted to make the job work better. I don't think there's a single job in the game that claims to be perfect.

Mahoro

02-11-2012, 06:57 AM

Anyway, how 'bout dat Legion?! Anybody participating in the NA Legion test server stuff?

Economizer

02-11-2012, 07:09 AM

slandering SMN

The word you are looking for is libel, and it is only libel if it isn't true.

Haste is also Haste. I really do wonder at the average quality of Whms that people on these forums play with when they assert that Whms don't put Haste up and never have 50% Cure potency gear (Not you, but a common argument elsewhere on the forums). Summoner isn't bringing anything with Hastega but a bit of MP that the mage isn't spending.

I'd suggest to use nicer words but I'm not sure that would work to help convince in this case...

On White Mages casting Haste? That's a Bard, Scholar, or Red Mage's job! :p But seriously, while I understand the statement about White Mages having better things to do (unless lowman it is a waste of a White Mage's time and MP to Haste anyone but their self if at all possible - not that fights go ideally), they should know how to do it if the situation calls for it.

While Abyssea burn victim White Mages (you know the ones, they don't bother beyond a Light Staff and a Noble's, and don't learn anything about how to play the job other then "spam Cure VI 'cuz it R heal bigger") are an issue, I don't see how someone who couldn't put a couple hours into WHM could hope to play a good Summoner when Summoning Magic is so important but so hard to skill.

5:30 AOE Haste > 3:00 single-target Haste.

Red Mage's haste last longer. Scholar's can last longer too. Bards can cap it solo. Also, Dispel.

and then are too busy chaincasting Cure V/VI

If the White Mage has to chaincast cures and Cure VI is part of that chaincast more then once in a minute period unweakened, it is usually the sign something is seriously wrong somewhere. It could be the White Mage, the party, or both, but Cure VI is a steaming pile of crap outside of extreme emergency single target curing when both Cure IV and Cure V are down and if you come to a situation where you have to use it then someone in that situation should feel bad about it.

Mahoro

02-11-2012, 08:14 AM

I put this as an edit in my last post, but I actually am not 100% sure if SMN Hastega went to 6 minutes since the 99 cap, as I haven't tested it myself. Will definitely have to do that, as I was operating off my knowledge of the previous cap. Your other points are well-taken, but honestly chaincasting Cure V/VI happens a lot more than you'd think in Voidwatch upper tiers (which is the only current event Cure VI is really used). I agree it belies a larger problem if everyone is rushing in and getting hit.

Greatguardian

02-11-2012, 08:40 AM

Anyway, how 'bout dat Legion?! Anybody participating in the NA Legion test server stuff?

I'll probably be there on an alt account. I didn't buy ASA on my main and have no real plans to.

Yygdrasil

02-11-2012, 09:26 AM

The word you are looking for is libel, and it is only libel if it isn't true.

Touche'

Nearly everything thus far stated is opinion. There have been a few... X can do Y and A can not do B... facts pointed out but much of the discussion until now has been of the "SMN sucks" or "SMN rocks" persuasion. It's the libel such as "SMN is useless" and "Terrible at every EG event" I'm defending against, not the facts. I wouldn't bother defending against a point like "WAR can DD better than a SMN" or "BLM can nuke better than a SMN". Those are facts.

Greatguardian

02-11-2012, 02:32 PM

I'll probably be there on an alt account. I didn't buy ASA on my main and have no real plans to.

^ Update on this. Went to the event, had about 55~ people. The 18-man group got demolished. The 33-ish-man group got demolished in round 1 and then killed Wave 1 in round 2 before getting demolished by the second wave.

I love it.

Arcon

02-11-2012, 02:45 PM

[QUOTE=Greatguardian;277973I love it.[/QUOTE]

I love your new sig. I completely missed this, I went to bed early because I was bored and nothing else to do. I totally forgot about this...

Greatguardian

02-11-2012, 03:09 PM

I love your new sig. I completely missed this, I went to bed early because I was bored and nothing else to do. I totally forgot about this...

Ah man, it was great. I mean, we got destroyed, but the atmosphere was light and the Com Reps were a lot of fun. I really think we should do events like that more often.

One thing to note is that the NMs had a really wonky aggro system. The groups couldn't ever really agree on whether or not it was truly Alliance hate, but it acted a hell of a lot like it. It made things a total nightmare whenever we wiped, as it became impossible to ever really recover from it.

Runespider

02-11-2012, 08:19 PM

^ Update on this. Went to the event, had about 55~ people. The 18-man group got demolished. The 33-ish-man group got demolished in round 1 and then killed Wave 1 in round 2 before getting demolished by the second wave.

I can see so much rage and dissapointment from this when they add it, I think people have the idea since Abyssea that endgame will be inclusive for all when stuff like this most surely isn't lol This sounds in no way PuG friendly at all, this is going to be LS only content..and for the big serious shells at that.

Well people kept saying they wanted more difficult content, be careful what you ask for I guess. I bet half the people that kept saying lolabyssea etc will never be able to clear these, at least if the quality of some of the players that say it on my server are anything to go by.

Economizer

02-11-2012, 10:10 PM

Please post in this thread using the below template to provide feedback on Legion based on your experience during the test server feedback event.

I had other obligations to attend to (plus I've never bothered setting up the test server stuff) so I couldn't go. I didn't want to clutter up the thread for direct feedback from players who actually went, but I notice a few things from players who played.

Please limit the NM's ability to charm players in Legion.

Can we get any information regarding the status of Charmna? Is it still planned, is it not still planned, anything?

some sort of Alliance hate

Alliance hate (or basically comments regarding "wonky aggro mechanics") was one of the most common comments I've seen. I believe I remember seeing some community rep comment about reducing aggro ranges... a good way to help assist having players control what mobs they engage would be to not have alliance hate from random mobs.

once you wipe it's very hard to get back up

Wipes happen, and when they do you lose a lot of time. I think this is punishment enough for mistakes or mobs deciding to spam moves. It would be nice if it was easier to recover from a wipe then what people have reported... I know how very stressful on White Mages it can be to have to Raise a ton of people while weakened while mobs are trying to eat them.

time

A few people have asked for this to have the time increased somewhat. I don't think this is because people want the content to be drastically easier or whatever but that people want mistakes like a group wipe to be more recoverable in addition to being able to take their time. I'm not entirely sure about this as it wasn't covered as much as the others but if the time is tight I think it should be kept in mind as a possible issue.

-

I'm sure there are other quirky things I might have missed but from what I've heard overall Legion is pretty good overall.

SpankWustler

02-11-2012, 10:38 PM

Dazusu

02-11-2012, 10:41 PM

Fellow players, am I alone on this? I feel like I speak for the majority, but I'd like some confirmation.

I am on the other side of the fence. The reason you might feel like you speak for the majority is that the other majority of players who would have welcomed this content have quit over the past 12 months due to a distinct lack of it.

I personally just reactivated my account after spending a year on WoW where there is content designed for 25 players. Some players do enjoy that type of content, and I'm sure many more will reactivate with the news of Legion (Quite a few in my Linkshell have also returned to try it out).

There is a market for that content - but most of that market quit because SE was 100% focused on low man content. I have always been of the opinion that both types of player should be catered for. If you don't like large scale content, stick to the revamped Salvage, Nyzul Isle, Limbus etc.

The beauty of World of Warcraft is that the same content is designed and scaled for smaller groups (10) and larger groups (25), and for those who don't particularly enjoy big group events - there are plenty of smaller options. The big difference between the two player bases is that the number of WoW players that demand the same gear as those who participate in the more difficult content is a lot less. Both types of player are looked after.

With FFXI, it seems to be that one group thinks they are more deserving or entitled than the other (and this can go both ways)

Runespider

02-11-2012, 11:48 PM

There is a market for that content - but most of that market quit because SE was 100% focused on low man content. I have always been of the opinion that both types of player should be catered for. If you don't like large scale content, stick to the revamped Salvage, Nyzul Isle, Limbus etc.

I did all the old big number content and I can safely say that the ones that did it all were in the minority, I would see the same people doing HNM, same people gathered for Ein etc lowman content is for pretty much every player of the game. This kind of big player content is aimed at a very small portion of the playerbase, you can bet if they don't cater to the players that liked abyssea to some amount they will lose far more than left during it.

Serious endgamers although important to aim content at are far less profitable to keep hold of than a more casual playerbase. This game would cease to exist without it's casual foundation players, it wouldn't even cover the server costs.

With FFXI, it seems to be that one group thinks they are more deserving or entitled than the other (and this can go both ways)

For better or worse Abyssea made everyone equal, expectations similarly became the same. the vast majority of players walking around with an emp and +2 gear would of never, ever got this kind of gear in old FFXI..at best they would of obtained Nyzul/sky type gear. I'm not sure if the vast majority of this playerbase now would take kindly to old FFXI at this point, where a small % of players would ever get the best gear again now.

You can see this by the new relic trials they are adding, people are raging because they know they won't get these done when in old FFXI it would of just been accepted that most players would never get the good stuff gear, ever.

Mahoro

02-12-2012, 12:26 AM

They have specifically said they are trying to make content to cater to both types of players. That is why on Tuesday the lowmanners are getting something new, and the rewards are not insubstantial...

As for Legion, give it time. From the reports, it is more PUG friendly than one might think, and they take feedback well.

Runespider

02-12-2012, 12:33 AM

they take feedback well

Seriously?

Greatguardian

02-12-2012, 12:34 AM

It sounds like the main thing interfering with strategies right now isn't the outright difficulty of the monsters, but how much those monsters want to aggro when it really feels like they shouldn't. In the other thread, someone even mentions splitting into three groups of 12 and fighting all three monsters at once to deal with this oddity.

It sounds like Legion would be a much easier event to handle if the aggro ranges were shorter or less wonky. Particularly since "this thing comes running with a hungry look in it's eyes and murder in it's heart from four miles off" is an ability we have no specific counter-measure (such as Earthen Armor for extremely damaging abilities) for at present.

That's pretty much what happened. We ended up splitting our 18 into an alliance of 14 and 2 solo parties of 2 (PLD+WHM) to hold the non-combat NMs. My PLD partner and I were able to take the Dvergr down to 25% duo (Excal/Aegis, doing fairly nice KoR damage), but the main alliance wiped on the first NM due to Charmga and things just went downhill from there.

Once we wiped, in both rounds, the NMs rarely stayed idle for long. They'd seem to "Idle" for about 2-3 seconds after killing someone, then randomly run off and kill someone else in their party from the other side of the map. Rinse and repeat until the main alliance never had anyone unweak for the remaining 20 minutes.

Shortbus solo parties were able to recover fine, however, which leads to my contention that it is definitely a modified form of Alliance-based hate. It's just the weird idling that was throwing people off.

Monster wander range also seems extraordinarily high. We had multiple NMs aggro'ing us *as soon as we zoned into the map*, so when they say the lobby is for preparation they really mean "If you're not ready to engage shit right now with no additional warning, don't press enter".

Overall, I still had a lot of fun. Getting your ass kicked from time to time is a real breath of fresh air in this game. I love it. I'm looking forward to all of the theorycraft that's going to go into mastering this event.

Theytak

02-12-2012, 12:57 AM

That's pretty much what happened. We ended up splitting our 18 into an alliance of 14 and 2 solo parties of 2 (PLD+WHM) to hold the non-combat NMs. My PLD partner and I were able to take the Dvergr down to 25% duo (Excal/Aegis, doing fairly nice KoR damage), but the main alliance wiped on the first NM due to Charmga and things just went downhill from there.

Once we wiped, in both rounds, the NMs rarely stayed idle for long. They'd seem to "Idle" for about 2-3 seconds after killing someone, then randomly run off and kill someone else in their party from the other side of the map. Rinse and repeat until the main alliance never had anyone unweak for the remaining 20 minutes.

Shortbus solo parties were able to recover fine, however, which leads to my contention that it is definitely a modified form of Alliance-based hate. It's just the weird idling that was throwing people off.

Monster wander range also seems extraordinarily high. We had multiple NMs aggro'ing us *as soon as we zoned into the map*, so when they say the lobby is for preparation they really mean "If you're not ready to engage shit right now with no additional warning, don't press enter".

Overall, I still had a lot of fun. Getting your ass kicked from time to time is a real breath of fresh air in this game. I love it. I'm looking forward to all of the theorycraft that's going to go into mastering this event.

It's comments like this that are making me regret letting my subscription lapse this month

Dazusu

02-12-2012, 01:08 AM

I did all the old big number content and I can safely say that the ones that did it all were in the minority

You missed my point completely. Even if the the amount of players who enjoy that content is 5%, they should still be catered for. As per my examples in other threads, Blizzard have stated that less than 3% of their player base touch Heroic Raid content - not that I'm saying it should be (or is) the same in FFXI, but my point is - all playing styles should be catered for. There should definitely be much more casual content than 'stupidly hard, time consuming content' - I completely agree with that, but there should be a small amount of the stupidly difficult content too; just to satisfy those masochists that enjoy it.

Mahoro

02-12-2012, 01:50 AM

Seriously?

Meant on this event. They've been posting specific feedback and their responses. Not on stuff like VW, etc

Seriha

02-12-2012, 06:45 AM

That is why on Tuesday the lowmanners are getting something new...

I wouldn't be so quick to call Neo-Nyzul or even Salvage and Limbus revamps new. Casuals are starving for legitimately new content just like the hardcores, which ultimately boils down to wanting new events altogether. Those coming with things like new zones or completely new mobs is just bonus.

Of Nyzul, I'm 5/5 on the 3 old sets and 20/20 on the weapons. Needless to say, I did it enough to know how it works and generally boosting mobs to cater to 99s isn't enough "new" despite the possible new rewards. It'll be okay to do now and then, but nothing I'm really itching to form a static around or try to do daily, much like Dynamis. I have zero excitement for Neo-Salvage as an event I came to dislike for various reasons, and overall expect a minimalistic, similar treatment Dynamis and Nyzul have received. Sure, the loot may look good, but is it fun to get a reasonable time frame? That's part of the dreaded "balance" equation SE seems to be having difficulty with post-Abyssea.

Ravenmore

02-12-2012, 07:28 AM

You missed my point completely. Even if the the amount of players who enjoy that content is 5%, they should still be catered for. As per my examples in other threads, Blizzard have stated that less than 3% of their player base touch Heroic Raid content - not that I'm saying it should be (or is) the same in FFXI, but my point is - all playing styles should be catered for. There should definitely be much more casual content than 'stupidly hard, time consuming content' - I completely agree with that, but there should be a small amount of the stupidly difficult content too; just to satisfy those masochists that enjoy it.

Thats all well and good but the game is at the end of its life stage. Now we need content for the masses not for 5% since you know they keep bringing up how they have so few working on it and little cash to work on it. The game is 10 years old and they seem to have no long term plans to keep it alive on the same level that EQ/EQ2 have.

Now for WoW there is so much more content then heroic and it far beyond what FF11 has or will ever have not to mention they can afford it cause you now 3% of 10 mil. is more then a couple servers worth of FF11 players or all of FF14 player base.

saevel

02-12-2012, 11:01 AM

I wouldn't be so quick to call Neo-Nyzul or even Salvage and Limbus revamps new. Casuals are starving for legitimately new content just like the hardcores, which ultimately boils down to wanting new events altogether. Those coming with things like new zones or completely new mobs is just bonus.

Of Nyzul, I'm 5/5 on the 3 old sets and 20/20 on the weapons. Needless to say, I did it enough to know how it works and generally boosting mobs to cater to 99s isn't enough "new" despite the possible new rewards. It'll be okay to do now and then, but nothing I'm really itching to form a static around or try to do daily, much like Dynamis. I have zero excitement for Neo-Salvage as an event I came to dislike for various reasons, and overall expect a minimalistic, similar treatment Dynamis and Nyzul have received. Sure, the loot may look good, but is it fun to get a reasonable time frame? That's part of the dreaded "balance" equation SE seems to be having difficulty with post-Abyssea.

I really want to see if they redo Limbus. They'll probably introduce AF+2 then.

I always liked Limbus, it had a dungeon crawling feel to it. You typically waded through ash & trash mobs while trying to get chests or kill floor boss's. You would get currency to trade in for items and sometimes get the +1 upgrade item itself. During this whole process your also building pop sets for Omega / Ultima for the mostly nice gear (Homam was win, Nashira mostly sucked). It was a balanced system.

Dazusu

02-12-2012, 04:26 PM

Thats all well and good but the game is at the end of its life stage.

People have been saying that for the past 5 years - and yet, here we are.

Mahoro

02-12-2012, 04:56 PM

Game isn't going anywhere. MMO's still run with 3,000 subscribers, and FF has many, many times more than that.

Runespider

02-12-2012, 08:35 PM

Game isn't going anywhere. MMO's still run with 3,000 subscribers, and FF has many, many times more than that.

You realise FFXI is direct competition for FFXIV right? (that game they are throwing developers and money at) Player numbers mean nothing in a situation like this. It's not like there are hordes of WoW players that are constantly checking on FFXIV to see if it's going to be worth trying at v2, it's XI players. One game scavenges the players from the other, hell half the returnees are disgruntled XIV players.

The sheer amount of money and staff they have on XIV shows me that they care more for that than XI (and it's losing them vast amounts of money too), and given what I wrote above I don't really feel too assured by what you wrote. Any other MMO? sure, this one.. not so much.

When V2 launches do you think they will have a a strong XI update for instance or as little as possible to make us try v2 out of boredom? The leader of FFXIV moving back to XI and ushering in a torrent of crap makes more and more sense all the time..

Mahoro

02-13-2012, 01:04 AM

I realize where the bulk of the programming resources are. Doesn't matter for purposes of my point. There will always be peaks and eddies of content. Perhaps when FFXIV V2 is launched, we will get some more resources back. Point is that the number of subscribers will still be here to justify it. Game isn't going anywhere.

And if you want to talk about concurrent launches and whether they will give us "as little as possible to make us try v2 out of boredom", I should probably remind you of the following:

Vision of Abyssea (Release date: June 21, 2010).
Scars of Abyssea (Release date: September 8, 2010).
Heroes of Abyssea (Release date: December 6, 2010).

Final Fantasy XIV
Release date(s) Microsoft Windows
Collector's Edition
September 22, 2010
Standard Edition
September 30, 2010

Yeah, they really LOVE giving us "as little as possible" so we'd try out a new game...

zagam

02-13-2012, 04:54 AM

I realize where the bulk of the programming resources are. Doesn't matter for purposes of my point. There will always be peaks and eddies of content. Perhaps when FFXIV V2 is launched, we will get some more resources back. Point is that the number of subscribers will still be here to justify it. Game isn't going anywhere.

And if you want to talk about concurrent launches and whether they will give us "as little as possible to make us try v2 out of boredom", I should probably remind you of the following:

Yeah, they really LOVE giving us "as little as possible" so we'd try out a new game...You're fighting with a brick wall here. The guy has been proven wrong many times about boogie man tanaka and still refuses to believe that his precious abyssea was a tanaka product.

Runespider

02-13-2012, 06:04 AM

Your fighting with a brick wall here. The guy has been proven wrong many times about boogie man tanaka and still refuses to believe that his precious abyssea was a tanaka product.

I dunno what you're talking about, I always said he was an awesome and talented dev team leader, making fun and engaging content for an ever changing MMO playerbase, I have no doubt at all that while working hard on making FFXIV he was also right in there making Abyssea too, any normal person would be unable or dissallowed to work on 2 important projects at once but this ofc is an exception. I mean look at how successfull FFXIV turned out to be, how can you not see his signature decisions in both titles that he simultaneously worked on?...Abyssea=FFXIV..it's like a mirror image of amazing game design.

Every moment that passes the XIV playerbase yearns for his return.

Ravenmore

02-13-2012, 03:33 PM

Yeah look at the 180 they did after abyssea when they had to try to keep us around for the least amount of money they could get away with. And we have been getting nothing but reskins and rehashes since WoTG nothing new or fresh (a couple new mob .dats is don't count). Is years gone past there was always something coming now its they are just stringing us along till 2.0 sinks or swims. Its is clear to anyone but the Whiteknights. Also other MMOs don't give excusses that they don't have the funds for the game while dumping pile after pile into a game that has already failed.

Arcon

02-13-2012, 05:18 PM

Every moment that passes the XIV playerbase yearns for his return.

I'm pretty sure you don't know the first thing about XIV, nor anyone who plays it. Go to their forums and just do a generic search for "Tanaka" and see for yourself. Most people are actually praising him, not usually for his work on XIV but on other games. They don't have a problem with him there, not nearly as much as you Abyssea white knights. You're blinded by your passion for Abyssea to the point that you make up shit to argue the fact that Tanaka was in charge during that time, because you're looking for reasons why they're changing their course away from Abyssea. However, it never once occured to you to blame the players who whined about it all the time, complained about every single aspect of it and actually wished for things to change away from some of the core ideas behind it. No, you cannot possibly blame the players, because that would ruin your main argument that "everyone loved Abyssea", which is pure und utter bullshit, and I'm starting to believe that you're starting to realize that yourself.

Yeah look at the 180 they did after abyssea when they had to try to keep us around for the least amount of money they could get away with.

And we have been getting nothing but reskins and rehashes since WoTG nothing new or fresh (a couple new mob .dats is don't count).

Those two statements (your first and second sentence) contradict each other. First you say they changed completely and became lazy after Abyssea, then you go and say that they've been lazy ever since WotG. Hint: only the second sentence is correct. You know that Abyssea came after WotG, right? Almost zero investment on their part, only generic content aimed at disguising the fact that they were lazy and try to keep us on the hook while they get the game to 99. They didn't do a 180 after Abyssea, they've held a steady course, even before it.

It's kinda ironic you two are calling people SE's white knights if they defend their current course when you're doing the exact same thing with Abyssea. You ignore other peoples' opinions and even logical reasons for why it sucked just to play your broken record that Abyssea was great and everything since sucks.

saevel

02-13-2012, 07:55 PM

I dunno what you're talking about, I always said he was an awesome and talented dev team leader, making fun and engaging content for an ever changing MMO playerbase, I have no doubt at all that while working hard on making FFXIV he was also right in there making Abyssea too, any normal person would be unable or dissallowed to work on 2 important projects at once but this ofc is an exception. I mean look at how successfull FFXIV turned out to be, how can you not see his signature decisions in both titles that he simultaneously worked on?...Abyssea=FFXIV..it's like a mirror image of amazing game design.

Every moment that passes the XIV playerbase yearns for his return.

Tanaka most definitely wasn't involved with FFXI during the early part of 2010. He may of a had a nameplate on a desk somewhere, but he wasn't involved in making content decisions, this is obvious when you compare WoTG (2009 era) FFXI to Abyssea (2010 - early~mid 2011) FFXI to Post-Abyssea LogWatch (late 2011~2012) FFXI. We went from stagnant growth with near zero content being added to the greatest expansion pack since CoP (I consider all three Abyssea's one expansion) to a near 180 degree reversal and the single most hated loot / cheapest content every created (LogWatch).

During that one year ish period of time that Tanaka was focused on making FFXIV successful (he failed btw) they buffed everything, rearranged some jobs, added tons of awesome gear, the greatest WS's ever made (except a few), awesome spells, and crazy awesome content-specific buffs (Atma / Abyssite). After that it's been nothing but nerfs and developers talking in circles on how they want to bring the game back to 75 era FFXI and "Barance". FFXI Abyssea kicked so much a$$ that the guy responsible for this work was made responsible for making FFXIV 2.0, he apparently brought most of his team with him.

You can not defend Tanaka or dismiss both the responsibility and credit for not only making FFXIV into the steaming pile of crap it was but of also trying to break FFXI even more then it is. This guy was so messed up that even the JP's went crazy and started complaining up a storm. That round of JP complaining has prompted some of the recent announcements to look into buffs for things we've been complaining about for months / years.

Anyhow, I'm hoping Legion has decent drop rates for the gear it has. Otherwise it'll turn into VoidWatch 2.0.

Ravenmore

02-13-2012, 08:33 PM

It's kinda ironic you two are calling people SE's white knights if they defend their current course when you're doing the exact same thing with Abyssea. You ignore other peoples' opinions and even logical reasons for why it sucked just to play your broken record that Abyssea was great and everything since sucks.

No What I like about abyssera was the reward/effort what I hated the rekin crap. It was clear that abyssea was the last big bang. It was a 180 on rewards but you are so blinded by the trying to make love to SE to tell what they did a 180 on. We went from rewarding content(no fresh content) to 1% drop rates and more crappy reskins. Look at all the good "new" gear that was released with the lasted round of VWNM its lazy crap.

Arcon

02-13-2012, 09:14 PM

No What I like about abyssera was the reward/effort what I hated the rekin crap. It was clear that abyssea was the last big bang. It was a 180 on rewards but you are so blinded by the trying to make love to SE to tell what they did a 180 on. We went from rewarding content(no fresh content) to 1% drop rates and more crappy reskins. Look at all the good "new" gear that was released with the lasted round of VWNM its lazy crap.

You are so blinded by trying to make love to whoever you believe was in charge during Abyssea to realize that not everyone wants that. Who is it, by the way? Would be interesting to see who you believe is responsible for Abyssea.

Let me illustrate something:

During that one year ish period of time that Tanaka was focused on making FFXIV successful (he failed btw) they buffed everything, rearranged some jobs, added tons of awesome gear, the greatest WS's ever made (except a few), awesome spells, and crazy awesome content-specific buffs (Atma / Abyssite).

Look at the things he's listing. Every single thing he's listed was stuff people complained about in truckloads. But you either weren't playing back then (9 months ago, when the forums were launched and just about every thread was complaining about Abyssea) or you selectively chose to forget the criticism. It didn't go anywhere, just go into the General Discussion forum and go to the last few pages and you'll see people complain about exactly the things he mentions here:
Buffs too powerful, makes content too easy
Gear that was too powerful, made much of old items and even entire events obsolete
Jobs changed and were made obsolete or didn't perform well enough
"Awesome spells" (as saevel so casually called them) that didn't work properly or underperformed (Impact, Addle, Cure VI, etc.)
"crazy awesome content-specific buffs" that everyone complained about because they were ridiculously overpowered and made any kind of skill requirement completely obsolete as long as you had a WHM with MM
Better reward ratio, that made people quit after a few months because they had nothing else to do

Along with several other complaints (proc system, job selection severely reduced, generic content, lack of story/lore, etc.), those were just some examples of what people were complaining about en masse that people now seem to admire and praise. Which leads me to the assumption that most people who complained back then have either quit already, or are content enough not to complain on here anymore. Either way, if you don't wanna recognize that these things are ambiguous and only you're opinion, you're either delusional or too arrogant to see that opinions other than your own are valid. And the only defense you seem to know is "you're too busy making love to SE to see it", which just indicates that you're out of actual arguments (although, ironically, it wouldn't even invalidate my arguments in any way).

Ravenmore

02-13-2012, 09:41 PM

Content should not last 7 years that is just retarded game design. New content should only last one year for the avg player. Also far more quit in 2009 when there were all these old events few people were doing. The old waty was mjust as bad and falls right on SE laps for leaving it the best in the game for far to long. Far more would had quit if kitty pants were the best thing you could get and they had to keep spaming sky a event that was so freaking boring after killing the same mobs for 6 years for the same 2 good drops.

Arcari

02-13-2012, 10:17 PM

http://static.bf2s.com/files/user/21025/ss/notThisShitAgain.gif

I could have sworn this was a thread about Legion and not the same old tired Pre vs during vs Post Abyssea debate.

Arcon

02-13-2012, 10:32 PM

http://static.bf2s.com/files/user/21025/ss/notThisShitAgain.gif

I could have sworn this was a thread about Legion and not the same old tired Pre vs during vs Post Abyssea debate.

Abyssea white knights are everywhere. Always watching. Always commenting.

Dazusu

02-13-2012, 10:34 PM

By your own admission Ravenmore, you think content should last a year - however, Abyssea was stale and inappropriate after 3 months. Is that good game design?

saevel

02-13-2012, 10:50 PM

By your own admission Ravenmore, you think content should last a year - however, Abyssea was stale and inappropriate after 3 months. Is that good game design?

What are you smoking, and could you please share some.

Vision of Abyssea (Release date: June 21, 2010).
Scars of Abyssea (Release date: September 8, 2010).
Heroes of Abyssea (Release date: December 6, 2010).

That's longer then three months.

Actually it didn't get "Stale" till half way through 2011. There was so much to do that people initially couldn't keep up and SE outpaced everyone with the updates. Until I joined my LS I was slogging along grabbing shouts for whatever and trying to put together +1 sets of things, that was in December 2010 right after Hero's was released. We really didn't pick up steam until May 2011 when we started cranking out Emp's for our members.

People think Abyssea was "fast" because SE released everything quickly and it all blurred by. It wasn't till people started killing Shinryu and getting Atmacite of Discernment that Abyssea become easy. Of course everyone forgets that part, they somehow assume everyone started off with Atmacite of Discernment, 200K brews, Apoc atma, RR and MM atma. That people started off with Ukon WAR's and VS Monks. And then they complain when their memory impaired revised history was somehow "stale after 3 months".

Arcon

02-13-2012, 11:53 PM

Vision of Abyssea (Release date: June 21, 2010).
Scars of Abyssea (Release date: September 8, 2010).
Heroes of Abyssea (Release date: December 6, 2010).

That's longer then three months.

No it's not. Each of those lasted a few weeks plus the time to initially figure out how to do it properly. Just because they were released three months apart doesn't mean they contained nine months of content.

Sparthos

02-14-2012, 12:50 AM

No it's not. Each of those lasted a few weeks plus the time to initially figure out how to do it properly. Just because they were released three months apart doesn't mean they contained nine months of content.

Content only started to become trivial because of Heroes of Abyssea and the brews/Apoc atma within. Prior to that release, Scars and Vision definitely were worth at least 3 months of content. You couldn't just zerg through everything, even RR/MM wasn't enough for the average player to zoom through content and EXP was fast but not Heroes fast.

I get you hate Abyssea and think it was bad for XI but the fact is instead of SE learning what worked (good time/reward ratios, lights, KI farming, responsiveness to player concerns, constant job improvements) and what didn't (job-specific procs, too many buffs, infinite-RR/brews) they've elected to return the game to the status it held before this expansion took hold.

Funny, if SE released an Abyssea-style expansion without the buffs/procs but with the same system of collecting many items to complete weapons and armor it'd be universally praised because at least when you logged in you'd feel like you're going somewhere. Instant gratification is one helluva drug.

They've announced Legion will have a point system but we'll have to see whats fundamentally wrong with it because SE isn't keen on releasing anything people have to work for - it must be random lotteries where the new guy goes 1/1 and the dude chipping away at the boulder finally stumbles in at 1/105. Heavy Metal Plates is like a huge middle finger to the playerbase, ADL will be a monumental grind for anyone without old-school LS connections, the Voidwatch fix will just remove the need for certain classes completely and the 'token' system is a waste of developer resources.

Btw, Tanaka does not get universal praise on the XIV forums, Yoshida does and for good reason. Yoshida plays his creation, he shares his vision, he understands the changing market of MMO is in players who play in short bursts rather than marathons and content is being made to reflect that. Do you really think Tanaka plays this game? Ito? Perhaps Yoshida is just pandering to his base because XIV is in the toilet and needs all the good PR it can muster but that is irrelevant because his actions will win over the minds of players.

Praise. You're a funny guy given Tanaka was the one yelling at the base to shut up about his brilliant fatigue system that was universally loathed. There is a reason he was yanked off the project and it wasn't because he was being praised too much.

Greatguardian

02-14-2012, 01:05 AM

Sparthos

02-14-2012, 01:56 AM

Razed Ruins and Minikin Monstrosity made Abyssea easy-mode as soon as Scars came out, and Visions didn't really contain enough "Good" gear to acquire for it to have a long life. Apoc only affected scrubs who didn't carry RR items to begin with or know how to lock their ear slots when they needed to chain-raise for who knows what reason. Net effect on good players? Saving 40k a week or so.

For skilled players perhaps but with individuals still wiping Sobek, Gukumatz, Tunga, Amun, Varney and Bhukis at the Heroes phase and beyond, it's safe to say most people weren't breezing. I do agree that MM/RR were both completely broken in the hands of people who actually know how to play but content is designed for the average player according to our overlords at SE.

Apoc didn't have a cooldown and that's what made it so broken. Even if you have RR items the time it takes to reapply the effect could still mean a scenario where everyone is dead and the zombie halts. With Apoc? No such thing. Coupled with a 3rd atma slot begging for Apoc to be used, the game quickly became 'zombie all the things!'.

Shinryu would have qualified as long-term content had brews not been made trivial in addition to Rani/Pantokrator in addition to Emps taking far longer to complete than a couple of days.

Scars EXP is also significantly better than Heroes across the board. The only reason people seem to prefer Heroes is BNS (Big number syndrome). Dominion Ops are retarded and only slow exp down. A good Bluffalo/Doll party can hit 250k-300k/hr. A pickup party on Bugards can hit 500k/hr pretty easily. Expwatch not working with Abyssea and Attainment not being a default plugin probably helped contribute to the ignorance in this case, though.

Scars vs Heroes EXP? While it's absolutely true that Scars puts out better EXP, that hinges on people being active. Heroes lights are pathetically easy to cap (because you don't need to cap them), you can AFK at the Tactician and collect EXP and even the slowest parties can still break 75k-150k/hr. The whole thing encouraged leeching that was already happening and simply exacerbated the problem. Any semblance of strategy in capping lights was tossed out the window when you could just zone in and get high tier chests.

It only took a couple weeks to get the 3-4 Visions items/Atmas that were actually good, and another couple weeks to get your AF3+2 from Scars once you had RR/MM. Rani and Pantokrator might have extended the lifetime of Heroes, but they added 200k Brews in the same patch so, again, the content lasted a couple weeks tops.

Again, for a skilled player or one with the connections. If you lack either, it's going to take you a good while to cap your jobs out and then even more time to finish Emp items especially if you go about it solo like some individuals have. People don't solo Emp items on BST because they want to, they do so because they have to.

It's really ultimately irrelevant because Abyssea was designed to be short term content so 3 weeks or 3 months, it was still meant to be followed up by something significant. Abyssea had strong pros and strong cons but what followed took procs, spread it around and recycled the ANNM system to spawn Voidwatch. For all the cries of Abyssea being too easy in the right hands Voidwatch is equally trivial with the only difference being the microscopic rates on some gear.

While SE rectified this issue in the most recent Voidwatch release, the system is still Abyssea-level easy for skilled players and can be finished in a day or never finished at all depending on your dices roll.

Theytak

02-14-2012, 07:00 AM

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/6/9/6910d763588002d7b0aec6db20f975b1.jpg

c'mon now people, how many times do you need to have this stupid argument about abyssea before you realize that neither side is ever going to budge on their opinion of the matter? Stop wasting everyone's time. The pet derail got snuffed for the same reason, it's pointless, repetitive, and this isn't the place for it.

Seriously. Legion. That's what this thread is for. You lose all right to complain about the devs not listening to us when you take a thread we know for a fact they're watching based on their responses to it, and totally derail it for your own pathetic soap box agendas. Cut it out.

Ravenmore

02-14-2012, 07:20 AM

For the hardcore players content has never lasted more then a couple months. How easy was sky, srea, limbus, einj, salvage only thing that slowed you down was the the drop rates and long cool downs. The game dosn't need content that last for months for the hardcore it needs to keep the people with out the means to blow though content happy. Its only hard for the people that go though first once the trick is known it all becomes LOLfarming.

axlzero

02-29-2012, 04:32 AM

if they model this after the old dynamis system get use to putting in tons of time with little to no reward the drops were never there in the old system remember the days of 6 bst or pup drops and everyone holding out for rdm blm and pld or something else if you gonna have huge groups like that you need to have a really good drop rate and more predictable drops expectation if not then the event will be as stagnent as ballista or outpost defence events

another thing there is so many end game events in ffxi that they need to be shorter events no as time consumeing and reap better rewards the game wasted so many years if it life with a handful of events that had lousy drop rates people had to catchup and many still are now that they can do events with small groups or alone the old content is getting caught up on and at the same time as new content i would like to ask the developement team to make drop rates reasonalble in the new event so this new even wont overwhelm everyones time its been over 10 years now your players are grown up and out of college or high school and have jobs and like dont really have time to play much anymore keep that in mind

Yolteotl

03-02-2012, 12:01 PM

So it's using the Garrison system that u cant even fix to where ppl are interested in participating in now and using a gil-based, sponsorship entry system that was abolished from dynamis....

How is this a good idea again???

Bad enough everyone is throwing away their cruor, conquest, imperial standing, allied notes into endless attempts for anything decent in VW and throwing away tags in the random-uselessness of the new Nyzul floors....
Guess it was decided we needed a good way to throw away Gil since its the only thing left in the game that players accrue and are used to getting something out of it...
OR the player is just a slave to the sponsor and guaranteed to get nothing out of it except for whatever scraps they get w points til there isnt any more points gear to go for and they still have no looting privelige...

Now THAT's INNOVATIVE and worthy of paying Square-Enix the players' subscriptions! as if...

Should of added in that if u lot on lottable equipment u dont obtain points, to give an environment of fair play.

Krashport

03-03-2012, 12:38 AM

So it's using the Garrison system that u cant even fix to where ppl are interested in participating in now and using a gil-based, sponsorship entry system that was abolished from dynamis....

This is the exact, same thing I said on page 9.) lul

Legion.. Last Stand... whatever they want to call it, kinda seems/smells like old school Dynamis. Rent a zone for said time frame farm farm farm.