To the devs! [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

TRiPP

01-10-2012, 08:51 AM

To whom it may concern.
Why the lack of response or even letting us know exactly what is going on with Red Mage? Are you simply attempting to push us over to another job? Is that it? Then make it clear. Most Devs speak in riddles and it drives us the players up the wall. So please, let us know exactly what it is that you guys are thinking about doing with Red Mage. I understand that it's in your job description to be as vague as possible or not even bother at all, however your responses have been devoid of life, and even moreso vague. So, please try to be as least vague as you can with these questions. I understand that you may be fired, or have a decrease in pay in because it's in your job description to give us riddles/puzzles/vague responses. Otherwise, I'm starting to see a pattern here with the devs and customer support...(It's not a good thing.)

Right then, here goes. I'm sure though, that I won't get any responses. 'least it's on the table, right? Can't say that I didn't try!

What are the current and future plans for Red Mage? Are you guys gearing it towards Enhancing, Enfeebling, Elemental or melee? (Enfeebling isn't worth the time anymore, unless you plan on removing immunity.) So if it falls under Enfeebling we'll know to avoid the job like the plague in because everything is immune.

If either, then what are the plans to remedy the job? (Also, demigods? or Demigod? Which is it? In reference to the whole spiel that was given about what Red Mage would become. The manifesto. Or did we just throw that out the window?)

Around an estimated time of when would these things be implemented?

Gravity II why? Gravity was made useless against anything worthwhile why give us a second tier if it's going to be just as useless?

Why have a forum if you're not going to take suggestions, and respond once in a full blue moon?

Why give us riddles and vague responses? As it's seen the Red Mage player base is already having a civil war amongst itself. Yet, you fuel the fire by giving us funny responses.

Phalanx, why hasn't it been scaled to percentage or something? x amount of damage when you're getting hit for 200+ isn't going to do much if anything.

What are the current plans for healing? What is going to be done to resolve the issues of healing skill actually being useful?

Enhancing are there any plans for it?

Enfeebling are there any plans for it?

Why give Red Mage such a shoddy merit table?

These are just a few questions, more to come if we can see some life from the Devs. (Doubtful, but again benefit of the doubt. Don't let me down SE. You seem to go out of your way to let everyone down.)

However, you (the Dev) don't have to give us a full summary of what's to come but some specifics would be nice. (Avoid things like "We have no current plans for this.")
Put yourself in our shoes. Currently your responses have been as efficient as "Oh, you've been diagnosed with cancer. You may die today, or you may live to 98, or you may not have cancer at all! WHO KNOWS! WE DON'T, WE'RE NOT CERTIFIED TO DIAGNOSE."

Despite the fact that you may view us as spoiled children, we're only returning the same respect that you've shown us. We're not really that cruel, but with the track record that has been currently shown by your staff, this is how we have to treat your staff unfortunately.

Acceptable responses would fall under "We plan on making x job more of this, this is what we plan on enhancing/fixing. When? Two-three updates down the line."

What we're expecting to get? "idunnolol", or nothing, nothing at all. (Most of us are actually aiming at the no response because of previous track record.)

So, please prove us wrong and respond. If you're trying to ferry us off into FFXVI, I doubt that would happen. Being as that this may be the last SE MMO that some of us may actually play, judging from the actions and responses that we end up getting from your staff. Even then we may not be playing for very much longer. I think it's safe to say that there may be a slight decline in subscriptions soon. So, prove us wrong? Participate a bit more in the discussions?

(If the trouble lies in that English isn't your native language, I could attempt to translate this to Japanese via Google Translate. Or if someone in the English forums who can speak Japanese would be kind enough to translate it. It can be done. We're not as mean as we look, we just expect answers but we keep getting the silent treatment like we're the children that you didn't want to begin with.)

As per usual, thanks.

Also, my apologies if it sounds like I'm being mean, or offensive. I'm not.
We would just like responses, and a strongly worded letter sounds like it would of been the only way to possibly get a response from the staff.

cidbahamut

01-10-2012, 12:32 PM

That was a terrible thread title and you should feel ashamed of yourself.

Kristal

01-10-2012, 07:06 PM

Oh my.. it seems a baboon somehow got access to Tripp's keyboard, and started spewing random gibberish by sitting on the keyboard, which then got fed through GoogleFish...

tyrantsyn

01-11-2012, 01:15 AM

It's been explain in countless other RDM threads what our problems are. At this point all we can do is sit back and wait to see what they plan on doing. They have step up and we have seen considerable improvements to or melee side threw gear choices. So they are listening. I'm sure their trying to come up with solution to our enfeebling and enhancing woe's as well. As a player base we just need to be patient and bitch about it when it's necessary. Like when they actual gives us something to go on as far as a future direction for the job class.

Seriha

01-11-2012, 07:22 AM

Daniel_Hatcher

01-11-2012, 08:20 AM

Phalanx, why hasn't it been scaled to percentage or something? x amount of damage when you're getting hit for 200+ isn't going to do much if anything.

How dare you even suggest this.

If they want to do this then add Phalanx III, Phalanx and Phalanx II should stay as it is, though Phalanx II should be improved to be better than Phalanx.

tyrantsyn

01-12-2012, 04:05 AM

I wouldn't say considerable improvements to melee, but there have been some. Until the haters stop going crazy every time they see a melee RDM or the subject comes up, SE's got work to do on the matter.

The overall lack of attention beyond level up gimmes (which I lump in with our slight melee equipment growth) is still worrisome.

Compare to the crap we had before the level cap increases, it's been like x-mas in my opinion. I'm sure we haven't seen the end of it either.

Neisan_Quetz

01-12-2012, 04:26 AM

Rdm melee is just fine where it's at.

ManaKing

01-12-2012, 11:13 AM

Rdm melee is just fine where it's at.

Or at least it is getting attention, which is more than we can say for anything else on the job.

Seriha

01-12-2012, 12:59 PM

Or at least it is getting attention, which is more than we can say for anything else on the job.

CDC as a non-specific buff aside, I don't really get how one could imply RDM's magical side hasn't grown more significantly from the 76-99 push. I can get enfeebles being a sore spot, but T4 nukes and far more mage friendly gear (Empyrean armor, for example) has come about than our melee spots. Major differences in our TP gear then and now will ultimately boil down to a bit more ATK, DA, TA, a few other points of STR/DEX/AGI depending on what you use. Basically not enough to wow people or change community perception.

So, while some might be fine with that, or say that while meaning other aspects of the job should get attention because they feel melee is beyond salvaging, doesn't really change what's happened. We didn't get Sanguine Blade. A. Edge is only good for AoE farming, and other jobs do that better even though we could make it hit hardest. Requiescat could've been better. Temper and Gain-STR/DEX have been our greatest melee buffs out of this push, closest to actually melee traits we've ever gotten beyond Composure, but good luck seeing people encourage a melee RDM on things that "matter" to people. Nobody wants to chase a job's high end gear just to be relegated to farming EPs or Campaigning on their own time. That was the problem resultant of cumulative issues at 75 and it's still a problem now.

Neisan_Quetz

01-12-2012, 01:29 PM

Nothing is going to 'wow' people until Rdm is doing more damage with CDC than Nins do with Blade: Hi, for example. Hence it's fine where it's at. Even without the attack penalty Requiescat wouldn't keep up, but at least it would be alot better than it is now. You'd be able to justify Excalibur (would come within 3% I estimate), if Requiescat didn't have the attack penalty.

ManaKing

01-12-2012, 02:34 PM

Seriha

01-12-2012, 05:12 PM

As I've said before, I don't expect RDM to ever be a top dog DD. I do consider damage important, of course, but would favor a moderate concern toward that with emphasis on styles improving our enhancing and enfeebling game with unique options not available to those who just hang back to better reward those who both chased the gear and put themselves at risk for AoEs.

Just involves SE trying... unless they want to throw more "limitations" at us.

saevel

01-12-2012, 08:55 PM

Oh yeah, not saying RDM-anything is in a good spot right now. The entire job is watered down because it doesn't have the same attention and care given to it that other jobs have been given. RDM can't melee better than most jobs, nuke better than most jobs that can nuke, heal better than jobs that can heal, and we can't land Enfeebles to save our reputation as the job with the highest enfeebling magic.

It's the complete lack of a unified vision for the job that makes it a complete handful to deal with, both for the devs and the players. I don't think the Devs liked RDM to begin with and since it turned into nothing but a problem child, the easiest way to deal with it is to just ignore it. To make matters worse, we fight like demons and personally insult each other over the mess they left us.

I would be significantly more happy if both the melee and the mage sides got equal buffs, so long as they actually had synergy. The job needs some job traits to support synergy and the ability to land enfeebles, even if it was at reduced potency.

This is how I see RDM. I just talk more about the melee side because it's the most neglected and in need of fixing, compared to the other two parts. In actuality I favor all three equally, I enjoy supporting and enfeebling just as much as I enjoy smacking a monster around and about the same as I enjoy nuking from afar. Just wish SE would do more to make those three parts work better together, it's become pretty handy low-man dynamis with my BLU partner, but would really like it to be more useful in big fights.

More appropriately I'd like to be able to share my 501 enhancing skill buffs with other people, but not be left to constantly spamming the same spell on 6 mofo's. BRD's, COR's nor SMN's are forced to do that, even WHM's got the aoe versions of our stat boosting spells.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-12-2012, 09:39 PM

Rdm melee is just fine where it's at.

Nothing about RDM is fine where it is at. (Tell a lie, nuking wise it's fine)

Biggest issue though is via Enfeebling and Enhancing.

If we enhance ourselves to be god-like, then prove it. Give spells that buff stuff like Attack Bonus, Magic Atk. Bonus, Cure Potency, Movement Speed (every other enhancer has) etcetera...

I wont mention enfeebles as all they need to do is make them land on enemies that last longer than 30 seconds.

Neisan_Quetz

01-12-2012, 10:02 PM

Daniel_Hatcher

01-12-2012, 10:58 PM

Rdm is never going to definitively out damage actual DDs, so melee is fine where it's at. It will never outnuke magic damage specialists (outside of 2hour), so once again our nuking is fine. We can cap cure potency even without heka's, so we don't need some stupid cure potency anything so stop asking for useless crap like that. We don't need self move speed buff, so stop asking for useless crap like that.

EDIT: This is assuming everyone you are comparing to is decently geared/skilled/isn't afk

1. Clearly. I never stated I wanted to Out-DD a DD. (Attack Bonus != Better DD than DD's) get real!
2. Again, Magic Attack Bonus+ on Tier IV nukes will never out nuke a tierV BLM, doesn't mean RDM shouldn't get it.
3. Capping Cure Potency with less gear opens slots to use more MND or VIT in.
4. Don't need it, doesn't mean they can't add it.

You really need to break free of your little box, improving aspects of RDM doesn't mean that they will then beat those that excel at those aspects.

Look at other Enhancing Jobs, then look at RDM. They get nowhere near the kind of enhancing abilities as them, yet they are supposed to make themselves god-like, with amateur buffs. Puh-lease.

Neisan_Quetz

01-12-2012, 11:07 PM

Daniel_Hatcher

01-12-2012, 11:09 PM

1. Then you admit Rdm melee is fine where it's at
2. Rdm doesn't need T5 nukes
3. 48% Cure potency in 5 pieces without heka's kalasiris, 3 of which aren't in your idle set. Mnd/Vit don't have a huge impact on C4 so you're just looking to waste space at that point
4. Don't need more useless crap like Gain-Chr.

Rdm isn't other enhancing jobs, so it shouldn't have the same enhancing abilities they do.

1. I don't.
2. You didn't read my post did you.
3. They already said MND and Skill will play a bigger part soon. (it's called thinking ahead)
4. Movement Speed+ isn't in the same league as Gain-CHR

By the same logic then, RDM isn't really an Enhancer.

Neisan_Quetz

01-12-2012, 11:19 PM

1. Then you're just being blockheaded, There is nothing wrong with Rdm melee at 99.
2. Not sure what you're trying to say here then. Rdm already has up to MABIII Gain-Int and can /sch for weather/klimaform. You won't match blm/sch but the job isn't meant to.
3. A Cure potency buff won't do anything but waste space that could have been used on a better enhancing spell. SE has already said they aren't going to do it so give it up.
4. Movespeed isn't necessary for anything you would bring a Rdm to, the days of kite fights are over. If you want to run fast and can't kill Kirin at 99 get some sprinter's.

By the same logic then, RDM isn't really an Enhancer.

We're finally agreeing on something, progress. Rdm is not a pure buff job, and does not, and should not, function like one.

Heabea

01-13-2012, 01:23 AM

i've never understood why RDM nowadays cry about meleeing... does anyone remember when some of the best WSs u could do could barely hit 500, since they introduced CDC it's been great, and now Requiescat, anyone can get a solid WS np. RDM was never about outdmg'ing anything, they simply outlasted things, Avesta's 1-3hrs of soloing shit anyone?

I just hope they add something that can make a rdm useful, like make saboteur overwrite resistance, or simply add amnesia and just make it negetate 1 TP move on NMs and maybe more on weaker mobs, I just want to take the damn job out for something other than attempting to proc'ing para2 and slow2 on mobs that i cant even land the spell on anyways...

I will say my biggest beef is... why is there a drg or pup, or /cry ukko's fury dev post every second day, where everyone knows rdm has possibly become the lame duck of all jobs in the game...

Ketaru

01-13-2012, 07:48 AM

CDC as a non-specific buff aside, I don't really get how one could imply RDM's magical side hasn't grown more significantly from the 76-99 push.

i've never understood why RDM nowadays cry about meleeing... does anyone remember when some of the best WSs u could do could barely hit 500, since they introduced CDC it's been great, and now Requiescat, anyone can get a solid WS np.

My thought on CDC though is that the particular jobs that can use it are not coincidental. For much of the history of the game, sword weaponskills were never contenders for strongest weaponskills in the game and, in the rankings of weaponskills added in the latest era of the game, it is definitely somewhere in the top half if not the top quarter. Quite a number of the Empyrean weaponskills, in reality, aren't that good.

Why the sudden discussion on nerfing Ukko's Fury or Victory Smite? Because of the particular jobs that use them. CDC is strong. But only PLD, RDM, and BLU can use it. And they're not at risk of marginalizing other damage dealer jobs. So yes. CDC may not be a melee buff specific exclusively to RDM, but it's pretty close.

If it had just been business as usual, CDC would've been a better weaponskill than Sword users really deserve. It could've ended up being Savage Blade to MNK's Asuran Fists all over again.

saevel

01-13-2012, 08:01 AM

We got CDC only because SE decided to put us on the sword and not the dagger. I just as easily of been the other way around with us stuck with lol RS (only good when stacked). CDC was designed to be a powerful WS for BLUs and PLDs, RDMs got it the same way we got all our past buffs, incidentally. Just look back to the enspell 1 buff, SE changed the way magic acc was calculated not for RDM but so that SCH could use /RDM for enspells. One of our job defining set of spells got buffed not for RDM but for a different job to use. We could break 300 skill for awhile, yet all our self buffs were capped at 300 until WHM and SCH were able to easily break 300 skill natively. Then SE goes in and raise's the cap to 500. They didn't raise the cap for RDM, they raised it for WHM and SCH.

Both our melee and both our mage sides have been badly neglected in the last series of updates. Nuking just got the typical Tier ups, Party support got absolute squat and melee has been left off most of the new blu/dnc/nin/thf/pup light melee gear and instead put on the crappy any-mage situational gear. We've gotten one melee buff and that was Temper, and I'm happy we got it during the previous team that actually listened otherwise we would be stuck with a sh!tty +5% DA spell. The only real support buff I can think of is our Emp armor that lets us double the duration of buffs we cast on others, except most of our buffs are self-cast. Basically we can haste / Refresh II better-er ... woo-hoo. Then SCH gets that ability for free and gets a super OMGWTFBBQ 2hr spell to go with it.

ManaKing

01-13-2012, 12:39 PM

We're finally agreeing on something, progress. Rdm is not a pure buff job, and does not, and should not, function like one.

Yeah but that is all RDM is viewed as. We have no real value except to refresh and haste in a party.

Curing isn't even an issue because of how much better a WHM can service an alliance and a BLU can service a single party. We are behind on curing. We will never catch up unless the next curing change affects us very favorably. So the best we are doing as a support is Haste, Refresh, Cure.

We need more, but we don't need to neglect what we already have. I have no problem with curing others, hasting others, or refreshing others. I just don't want that to be all I'm good for every time things get real. It gets boring fast and there is plenty of time to do other things while i sit around.

When you compare the solo experience to the party experience, RDM is disastrously bad with other people. All of it's value gets cut down because it doesn't stack well(enspells/sambas or gain/boost). We need buffs to our functionality to a full alliance (please don't read this as we need AoE buffs, that isn't what I'm saying.) Things need to stack better for us and we need our enfeebling back to throw into the mix.

On melee, It really is go Almace or go home. There is no middle ground, which I guess is ok, but it won't be if they don't keep RDM's gear up to date. They have done a decent job recently(thanks Brego Helm, Rubeus Spats, and Ephemeron), but they still haven't given us an acceptable TP body. The only one that is even close to acceptable is crimson/blood scale mail augmented to +3% haste, get the accuracy for the secondary buff, and get some decent random augments like more acc or atk. I'm not going to pretend that is a reasonable amount of work. You have to get lucky on either Odin or the HQ drop of the Adamantoise....Neither are good drop rates. Good luck on all that random luck.

Please fix our job. It's broken and WE can't do anything about that.

saevel

01-13-2012, 08:39 PM

We need more, but we don't need to neglect what we already have. I have no problem with curing others, hasting others, or refreshing others. I just don't want that to be all I'm good for every time things get real. It gets boring fast and there is plenty of time to do other things while i sit around.

This is what I've been saying for years now, and somehow the a$$ hats on here think that's all we're supposed to do. That or they feel constantly casting "enfeebles" (whatever that is supposed to mean) over and over again is accomplishing something.

cidbahamut

01-13-2012, 11:40 PM

I have no problem with curing others, hasting others, or refreshing others. I just don't want that to be all I'm good for every time things get real.
If you think that's all you are good for then you need to hang up your pimp hat and play a different job.

Red Mage is in a bad place, but perpetuating this myth that Refresh, Haste and Cure are all we have is not helping anyone.

ManaKing

01-14-2012, 02:28 AM

If you think that's all you are good for then you need to hang up your pimp hat and play a different job.

Red Mage is in a bad place, but perpetuating this myth that Refresh, Haste and Cure are all we have is not helping anyone.

You certainly didn't counter point anything so it seems that your lack of evidence doesn't lead well to your argument. Please actually participate in a conversation or expect to be ignored. I don't have time to waste on people that make vague, insulting statements. I'm not in high school or under a bridge.

cidbahamut

01-14-2012, 03:00 AM

You certainly didn't counter point anything so it seems that your lack of evidence doesn't lead well to your argument. Please actually participate in a conversation or expect to be ignored. I don't have time to waste on people that make vague, insulting statements. I'm not in high school or under a bridge.

You didn't really back your argument either. Hooray for internet arguments.

Seriously though, Red Mage brings more to the table than just three spells.
Are those three spells useful? Yes.
Can you do more to assist in any given fight than cast those three spells? Yes.

Try making use of your subjob. Even without Chainspell Red Mage is still a better suited to stun than anyone other than a BLU rocking all their stun spells. Red Mage can fill in the holes that crop up in mage duties while the specialists are pre-occupied. White Mage is busy keeping tank alive but can't take a break to help raise. Red Mage is operating under the freedom of 'we don't care what you do' so they raise folks and re-apply pro/shell because god knows the White Mage doesn't have time to run into the fray while the NM spams TP attacks and no one else ever remembers to do it. White Mage has everything covered? Get back to nuking and stunning if you're /BLM. Need more -na spells? You can help with that if you're /SCH or /WHM(and then get back to nuking). Stuff goes south and the NM is looking at you? Good news, if it can be kited then Red Mage is probably better suited to kiting it than most(disclaimer: there's plenty of stuff that can't be kited, shut up).

Is it worthwhile to bring a Red Mage when there are specialists available? Probably not, but I think there's too many variables to say the answer is anything but subjective without further details.
Is Red Mage in a bad place as a job? Yes.
Is Red Mage only bringing 3 spells to the table? No, and you are silly for suggesting so.

There, now pick that apart and tell me how I am wrong. I know saevel will.

saevel

01-14-2012, 03:21 AM

Neisan_Quetz

01-14-2012, 03:41 AM

ITT: people who don't agree with your opinion = troll - ohwait it's always been like that, damn.

cidbahamut

01-14-2012, 03:47 AM

Ironically, advocating discriminating action against specific users probably falls under the discrimination clause in the forum rules and is closer to trolling than simply having a difference of opinion.

tyrantsyn

01-14-2012, 05:36 AM

Yes RDM only offers half it's potential with out a sub job. Yes RDM is not it's main job alone. Yes we all want to see things fix on RDM. Yes the Dev's understand that no one posting on the RDM forums have ever been truly happy with the way the job has been handled since the cap increase.

Conversation about RDM is like a 20 sided die with each side having a varied opinion. No one ever win's on these thread's and at some point Saevel won't be able to see what any one's talking about any more because every one's going to be blocked.

:D

Honestly all we can do at this point is sit back and wait.

Ketaru

01-14-2012, 01:56 PM

We got CDC only because SE decided to put us on the sword and not the dagger. I just as easily of been the other way around with us stuck with lol RS (only good when stacked). CDC was designed to be a powerful WS for BLUs and PLDs, RDMs got it the same way we got all our past buffs, incidentally. Just look back to the enspell 1 buff, SE changed the way magic acc was calculated not for RDM but so that SCH could use /RDM for enspells. One of our job defining set of spells got buffed not for RDM but for a different job to use. We could break 300 skill for awhile, yet all our self buffs were capped at 300 until WHM and SCH were able to easily break 300 skill natively. Then SE goes in and raise's the cap to 500. They didn't raise the cap for RDM, they raised it for WHM and SCH.

Is there some rule I missed somewhere that said that if they give a Sword update to PLD and BLU, they must give it to RDM too? Because apparently that rule didn't apply to Sanguine Blade. Maybe you would've been happier if we did get Rudra's Storm instead of CDC. At least then you would've been justified in getting all riled up about it.

Those other points aren't even remotely the same because all jobs with Enhancing skill follow the same rules. Taking RDM off CDC is as simple as crossing it off the jobs eligible to use the weapons that provide it. And even then, RDM did end up benefiting from them too, even if you have to act all indignant because they weren't exclusively for you. Or is it that you want only RDM to be capable of going above the cap?

Neisan_Quetz

01-14-2012, 03:05 PM

Rdm's main weapon (if meleeing) is Sword, being on the empyrean sword was expected. CDC being usually the best sword WS (barring physical resistances) was unexpected, but very welcome.

saevel

01-14-2012, 03:54 PM

Is there some rule I missed somewhere that said that if they give a Sword update to PLD and BLU, they must give it to RDM too? Because apparently that rule didn't apply to Sanguine Blade. Maybe you would've been happier if we did get Rudra's Storm instead of CDC. At least then you would've been justified in getting all riled up about it.

Those other points aren't even remotely the same because all jobs with Enhancing skill follow the same rules. Taking RDM off CDC is as simple as crossing it off the jobs eligible to use the weapons that provide it. And even then, RDM did end up benefiting from them too, even if you have to act all indignant because they weren't exclusively for you. Or is it that you want only RDM to be capable of going above the cap?

*Whoosh*

I never advocated taking RDM off CDC nor giving us lol RS. I said having CDC was incidental, SE just as easily could of put us on the dagger one which sucks if your not a THF main.

CDC wasn't a "buff" to RDM, it was a buff to sword users, and the dev's who put us on it at the time just happened to think it was a good idea. Or are you forgetting this is the same company who created Gravity II and originally had Temper at 5% static.

Neisan_Quetz

01-14-2012, 04:19 PM

Not seeing what's so incidental about Rdm getting a final sword weapon. Rdm's final weapons are all swords and 1 dagger.

Ketaru

01-14-2012, 05:23 PM

I never advocated taking RDM off CDC nor giving us lol RS. I said having CDC was incidental, SE just as easily could of put us on the dagger one which sucks if your not a THF main.

CDC wasn't a "buff" to RDM, it was a buff to sword users, and the dev's who put us on it at the time just happened to think it was a good idea. Or are you forgetting this is the same company who created Gravity II and originally had Temper at 5% static.

And I never said you advocated such a thing. Only that you sported that cloak of victimhood quite well for somebody who got a pretty good weaponskill out of the deal. Sword users got a good weaponskill and RDM is one of the 3 sword users. I struggle to understand why you look at that with such spite. At least RDM didn't get Cloudsplitter!

Seriha

01-14-2012, 07:42 PM

Perhaps it's my fault for even bringing up the matter this time around. In essence, I've felt attention specific to RDM has been needed, but lacking. In that lacking, there has been incidental attention, either through blanket application like the primary sword users and magian weapons, or the barest bones of progress through the cap increases like T4 nukes and a few other spells not really unique to us other than Temper. All of this hasn't really helped to bolster the need of our toolset, and bitch and moan Drjones might over people being wary of getting delgated to Pink Magery, saying you can throw stuns or status cures as "things to do between Haste/Refresh/Cure spam" isn't much consolation. It's shades of SMN/WHM back in the day where instead of doing things with your avatars, you were a (main) healer. RDM just lacks that "doing things with your avatars" aspect that SMNs otherwise got fixed through better -perp, favor, split timers, and new/useful BPs.

And before someone thinks they're cute, I'm not saying RDM should get a pet. The whole "doing things with your avatars" was a reference to concept and job identity. One at least a word I'm sure some will take offense to when considering the hybrid image.

tyrantsyn

01-15-2012, 12:02 AM

You know I remember that, when we had to revert to SMN's as main healers because of the lack of actual healing job's. Man that was some sucky crap. Could you imagine having to take that kind of invite just to level. Talk about not enjoying your job.

saevel

01-15-2012, 06:11 AM

And I never said you advocated such a thing. Only that you sported that cloak of victimhood quite well for somebody who got a pretty good weaponskill out of the deal. Sword users got a good weaponskill and RDM is one of the 3 sword users. I struggle to understand why you look at that with such spite. At least RDM didn't get Cloudsplitter!

And now we have it, your trying to insinuate RDM's got some sort of buff via CDC and call it a day. IDK where you've been living lately, if your here honestly trying to have a discussion or just trolling the RDM forums for lols. SE has pretty much ignored RDM since right after Abyssea's release. You can't pull some BS out of thin air and expect many people here to actually believe you. Every other job has gotten multiple buffs and modifications. RDM was given tier ups and a nifty 10m JA. We've sunk to the level of SMN, except at least SMN has a function with PD / EA.

Neisan_Quetz

01-15-2012, 06:48 AM

Not that Rdm' doesn't need buffs/modifications but I can easily argue in the case of Sch Pup Drg Bst and Cor, they needed them more than Rdm did.

ManaKing

01-15-2012, 07:08 AM

Not seeing what's so incidental about Rdm getting a final sword weapon. Rdm's final weapons are all swords and 1 dagger.

Not trying to be a jerk, but i think it is 2 daggers. http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Oneiros_Knife . That being said, not for WS and only as an offhand for an Almace. I'll concede we have only 1 main hand dagger, but we have 2 useful ones. Which still doesn't completely explain why we only have 2 good daggers and a B in dagger skill.....

Sword users got a good weaponskill and RDM is one of the 3 sword users. I struggle to understand why you look at that with such spite. At least RDM didn't get Cloudsplitter!

That's funny because we could have actually used Cloudsplitter, unlike a BST/WAR that doesnt have access to high levels of MAB/MAC. The STR/MND mods are typical of sword user WSs. It would have been the Melee equivalent of Wildfire on a RDM because of the difference in gearing options for a RDM vs a COR. 40% of STR/MND would have gone a long way on RDM and we would have had the MAB/MAC to hit and hit well.

The job that should have the most good Magical WSs in the game only has 1 natively and it's an AOE. Sanguine Blade is a survival tool, not a damage tool. Why doesn't RDM still have a good elemental WS, so it can tear up mobs?

I'm only pointing out SE does a good job of mixing things up for no apparent reason. I love my Almace and CDC, but it doesn't fit the job as well as other options would have. We have naturally weak Attack ratings so we are never going to get the most out of CDC. There seems to be no real logical sense to how they adjust jobs and design WSs, because it's certainly not based off which jobs need it the most. Just look at Cloudsplitter since you brought it up. It doesn't make any sense to be on BST or WAR. I mean, maybe DRK, but that isn't going to make anyone happy.

Not that Rdm' doesn't need buffs/modifications but I can easily argue in the case of Sch Pup Drg Bst and Cor, they needed them more than Rdm did.

I'm hoping you mean that they actually got buffs (past tense), because that is what I'm seeing. Just listen to your friend GG, COR is functional and still a good job. BST solos pretty much anything that can be solo'd. DRG is getting recasts lowered and they have gotten tougher wyverns and the ability to use breath moves on a timer. SCH and PUP get buffs constantly, most likely because they actually need them.

RDM gets maintenance. SE is perfectly content to keep RDM down where it is at because they have the conception that it is some kind of juggernaut of exploitation that makes it too powerful even though they already cut off and cauterized all of it's unintended strengths. Temper is the only thing of worth that came out since 75 and only half the people playing RDM even use it.

Instead of Double Attack, RDM could have used a potent MAB buff spell and MAB linked WSs to use it on. It wouldn't have even had to been self cast only since it would only be applicable to 1/4 of the jobs in the game. My point and several other people's point is that RDM gets blanket buffs but never gets specialized attention that is relevant to our job. I feel RDM has become grossly marginalized and has been stripped of any positive job identity. We could have been good at something, but currently we aren't particularly good at anything and that is a crappy place to be.

cidbahamut

01-15-2012, 07:43 AM

And now we have it, your trying to insinuate RDM's got some sort of buff via CDC and call it a day.

You're seriously going to sit there and try to argue that RDM getting CDC did not improve Red Mage's melee capabilities? And he calls the rest of us trolls... /roll_eyes

Neisan_Quetz

01-15-2012, 08:00 AM

Not trying to be a jerk, but i think it is 2 daggers. http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Oneiros_Knife . That being said, not for WS and only as an offhand for an Almace. I'll concede we have only 1 main hand dagger, but we have 2 useful ones. Which still doesn't completely explain why we only have 2 good daggers and a B in dagger skill.....

I was referring to Relic/Mythic/Empyrean as 'final' weapons. Rdm has a sword for each and is on dagger as well for Relic. There was no precedence for Rdm getting Dagger and not Sword, so I don't find Rdm being on Almace 'incidental'.

I'm hoping you mean that they actually got buffs (past tense), because that is what I'm seeing. Just listen to your friend GG, COR is functional and still a good job. BST solos pretty much anything that can be solo'd. DRG is getting recasts lowered and they have gotten tougher wyverns and the ability to use breath moves on a timer. SCH and PUP get buffs constantly, most likely because they actually need them.

RDM gets maintenance. SE is perfectly content to keep RDM down where it is at because they have the conception that it is some kind of juggernaut of exploitation that makes it too powerful even though they already cut off and cauterized all of it's unintended strengths. Temper is the only thing of worth that came out since 75 and only half the people playing RDM even use it.

Instead of Double Attack, RDM could have used a potent MAB buff spell and MAB linked WSs to use it on. It wouldn't have even had to been self cast only since it would only be applicable to 1/4 of the jobs in the game. My point and several other people's point is that RDM gets blanket buffs but never gets specialized attention that is relevant to our job. I feel RDM has become grossly marginalized and has been stripped of any positive job identity. We could have been good at something, but currently we aren't particularly good at anything and that is a crappy place to be.

Bst soloing doesn't really matter outside of dynamis, and otherwise is still an unpopular job for the rest of the game. Cor is/was one of the least popular jobs next to Pup; only after Wildfire and other changes has cor started to look more attractive. Sch wasn't much better off and even with all the changes isn't a very popular job, unlike the other mages bar Blu (heck Blu is still more popular than Sch...).

Think we're mostly in agreement with your last statement, yes Rdm is in a bad place right now, but the other jobs who received buffs were in a even worse position in my opinion.

saevel

01-15-2012, 11:49 AM

There was no precedence for Rdm getting Dagger and not Sword, so I don't find Rdm being on Almace 'incidental'.

*Cough* Aeolian Edge vs Sanguine Blade

I know it's not a weapon, but it is a Weapon skill. And we weren't on the bigger DMG Bastard / Scimatar Class swords for a long time. This is SE, I ~really~ don't trust them.

Neisan_Quetz

01-15-2012, 11:59 AM

Rdm has never learned Ex weaponskills for Sword without appropriate subjob. The problem was Sanguine Blade was a Ex WS.

As bad as SE is at times I highly doubt they would give Rdm a 'final' dagger and not Sword especially since they haven't in the past. They have been pretty bullish on other gear but they probably consider it 'balance' since Rdm has self enhancing spells. Or something.

Ophannus

01-15-2012, 02:06 PM

And we weren't on the bigger DMG Bastard / Scimatar Class swords for a long time.

Excalibur and Almace are longswords. RDM doesn't get any Scimitars except for Sapara of Trials I believe.

Neisan_Quetz

01-15-2012, 02:12 PM

Almace being one hell of a longsword and downright ridiculous on Taru. Or any race but it's really obvious on Taru.

Ketaru

01-15-2012, 02:43 PM

And now we have it, your trying to insinuate RDM's got some sort of buff via CDC and call it a day. IDK where you've been living lately, if your here honestly trying to have a discussion or just trolling the RDM forums for lols.

How does anything I say suggest that we got CDC and we can leave it at that? I said quit with the undermining of the fact we got it as though it was just the run off of PLD and BLU. You're not entitled to it just because PLD and BLU did. One would think you of all people would get that, since you yourself are the one that said it could've just as easily have been Rudra's Storm instead.

I'm only pointing out SE does a good job of mixing things up for no apparent reason. I love my Almace and CDC, but it doesn't fit the job as well as other options would have. We have naturally weak Attack ratings so we are never going to get the most out of CDC. There seems to be no real logical sense to how they adjust jobs and design WSs, because it's certainly not based off which jobs need it the most. Just look at Cloudsplitter since you brought it up. It doesn't make any sense to be on BST or WAR. I mean, maybe DRK, but that isn't going to make anyone happy.

I'd rather have a WS that is good before a WS that just fits your image of the job. Gearing for CDC is incredibly simple. Gearing for Cloudsplitter is impossible. Cloudsplitter is not a good WS or even a decent one. Period.

Every other job has gotten multiple buffs and modifications. RDM was given tier ups and a nifty 10m JA.

And Gain-Attribute spells. And a new type of debuff. And a job ability that enhances debuffs. And Temper. They may not all be particular useful for the current endgame (even though Voidwatch is now kind of a joke with frequent procs). But don't conveniently neglect to mention them just because they don't suit your argument.

Make a comparison. BLM mostly got "tier ups and a nifty 10m JA" as well, but they are clearly experiencing a surge in popularity. For no other reason than weakness procs. So let us all agree that RDM mostly fails to meet a particular need right now. But that has nothing to do with a lack of updates and everything to do with the developers' irrational fear that being able to land enfeebles will be overpowered. And even if they do land, they don't do crap to new NMs. On a mob like Gaunab, Paralyze II is more useful for it's ability to trigger a weakness than it's intended of effect of actually paralyzing.

And, like whores, many of us (myself included), probably merited Bio III and Blind II because they "might" be the Dark Black Magic that triggers weakness. Not because of any actual desire to have these spells.

BST solos pretty much anything that can be solo'd.

Beliefs like that are why the job will never get anything that will make them wanted in groups. Only more stuff that will make people hate BSTs.

saevel

01-15-2012, 03:26 PM

Excalibur and Almace are longswords. RDM doesn't get any Scimitars except for Sapara of Trials I believe.

I'll say it again,

And we weren't on the bigger DMG Bastard / Scimatar Class swords for a long time

And LOL about RDM and Excal prior to recent Dyna updates. Relics were hard enough to get, most shells won't let you sponsor unless your a leader and definitely not for what they call "lolMeleeRDM". You had to say you were getting it for your "PLD", or be in the leaders back pocket.

Plus Xcal isn't even that good for RDM. If you were going to do a relic it should of been Mandau, evis was our best WS prior to CDC being introduced.

That comment was in reference to Bastard Swords have better DPS then Long Swords, our best Long Sword was Enhancing Sword at Lv 68 DMG:40 Delay 240, vs things like Company Sword or Perdu Hangar. This is all pre 80 / abyssea land. Thankfully we were put on the Sword Magian trials which greatly boosted our melee potential, but again SE could just as easily put us on the dagger ones and called it a day.

cidbahamut

01-15-2012, 03:30 PM

Thankfully we were put on the Sword Magian trials which greatly boosted our melee potential, but again SE could just as easily put us on the dagger ones and called it a day.

And they could just as easily have put us on club trials and called it a day. Was there a point you were trying to make or are you just flapping your jaw to the tune of your single-minded narrative again?

Economizer

01-15-2012, 04:06 PM

RDM could have used a potent MAB buff spell

The magic equivalent of Dia would be nice. Or better yet, Dia and Bio could work for magic defense and magic attack in addition to their current functions. At very least under Saboteur if nothing else, although seeing Diaga II and Diaga III (for RDM with Dia III merits) that also impact magic defense on mobs would be incredibly nice for AE burns with Red Mages.

Seriha

01-15-2012, 05:55 PM

How does anything I say suggest that we got CDC and we can leave it at that?

Well, we've got some saying melee is fine where it's at, which functions under the assumption of having CDC. Even then, it's an uphill battle socially and mathematically, the latter contributing to the former. I'm also of the mind that a job's status should not be reliant on a single item, for as I've coined it before, Zero to Hero status.

ManaKing

01-16-2012, 11:38 AM

I'd rather have a WS that is good before a WS that just fits your image of the job. Gearing for CDC is incredibly simple. Gearing for Cloudsplitter is impossible. Cloudsplitter is not a good WS or even a decent one. Period.

For the jobs that get it. I would, once again, love to have a cloudsplitter type WS on RDM, because we could actually gear for it, it would fit the general strengths of the job, and we would be able to be effective with it.

We are in complete agreement that Cloudspiltter sucks on BST and WAR, but the WS itself is not lackluster, only the applicable jobs' ability to use it. It is a good WS that was completely misappropriated. Sorry you can't see the comparison but it's right there.

CDC is a mismatch for RDM because it doesn't play to the jobs strengths and thus it is a blanket buff. It just so happens that crit hit WSs are just plain good almost completely regardless of the situation, so RDM got a lucky break. But what they still havent gotten is any personalized attention to actually fix the majority of the problems the job has.

And Gain-Attribute spells. And a new type of debuff. And a job ability that enhances debuffs. And Temper.

Gains are only good when you don't have a WHM, so doing nothing serious. Debuff? Addle that is shared with other jobs or Gravity 2/Break which were useless on shipment? A job ability that is wasted everytime you cast a debuff because the mob was immune or doesn't actually confer any sort of qualitative debuff?

Temper is good. But doesn't do anything for a RDM in a party since clearly, we aren't supposed to melee.

And as far as BLM vs RDM goes. BLM is actually good at it's job by design and has almost every proc and does the most damage nuking. Wonder why they didn't need a bunch of buffs to make them appealing in a system that forces you to proc to get anything good.....

ManaKing

01-16-2012, 11:40 AM

The magic equivalent of Dia would be nice. Or better yet, Dia and Bio could work for magic defense and magic attack in addition to their current functions. At very least under Saboteur if nothing else, although seeing Diaga II and Diaga III (for RDM with Dia III merits) that also impact magic defense on mobs would be incredibly nice for AE burns with Red Mages.

That would be pretty great.

Kristal

01-16-2012, 06:06 PM

Rdm has never learned Ex weaponskills for Sword without appropriate subjob. The problem was Sanguine Blade was a Ex WS.

The problem is that sword weaponskills were assigned without regards to the jobs that use them. Why would WAR be on ELEMENTAL weaponskills? Why is DRK on them, when RDM, with a HIGHER skill rating, is not? Why is RDM unable to use elemental weaponskills when they are the epitomous magic sword wielder?

SE doesn't want RDM to melee, so they curb weaponskills RDM would natively excel at. They don't want RDM to cast, so they make mobs immune to the one magic skill we excel at. They don't want RDM to cure, don't want RDM to nuke.
And then they turn all that around and give RDM SELF-ONLY spells to enhance our melee... :confused:

Whoever is in charge of RDM job balancing, he's utterly and completely off the beaten track, stuffing local herbs in a handcrafted pipe while soaking in a sulphurous hot mud spring... :mad:

Greatguardian

01-17-2012, 01:06 AM

ManaKing

01-17-2012, 05:01 AM

You're ignorant if you think that just because RDM is a mage with some access to MAB in gear/traits that it would somehow make Elemental weaponskills worth using.

Even if RDM got Cloudsplitter, CDC would shit on it. This is one case where the Devs know what you need a hell of a lot better than you do.

With all due respect, GG, shut up. You say you play a decent COR but somehow you fail to realize where a large portion of your damage is coming from, an Elemental WS. I don't see you complaining about Wildfire, because it is awesome. The people that actually play RDM want something awesome to do with all of their MAB as well.

saevel

01-17-2012, 05:08 AM

A RDM using something on the order of Cloud Splitter would be pretty good. Not quite as potent as Wildfire due to WF COR's cheating and using an Ifrits staff, but close. 40% STR / MND favors and being a MAB WS favor's RDM's greatly over BST / WARs.

Heck just look at Sang Blade and Aeolian Edge for a good idea of what a RDM can do on their own. While our melee gear is somewhat sh!t our mage gear, especially MND and MAB, is beyond awesome.

cidbahamut

01-17-2012, 06:40 AM

The people that actually play RDM want something awesome to do with all of their MAB as well.
http://ifury.net/storage/implied_facepalm.jpg

Neisan_Quetz

01-17-2012, 08:33 AM

This is why we can't have nice things.

If you can't find some 'awesome' to do with your MAB trait turn in your chapeau and find an easier job.

Tanakisnumberone

01-17-2012, 09:15 AM

hello OP, plz give it time and u will realize Tanaka's vision for RDM. it has come down to rdm being a dem-god wit powering players up, u will see in coming updates this vision to be realized.

Ketaru

01-17-2012, 12:49 PM

The people that actually play RDM want something awesome to do with all of their MAB as well.

I was wondering if I should respond to your comment about Cloudsplitter. Telling you that if it's magic damage you really want to do, you could try doing the obvious.

But it looks like other people did a much more subtle job of it. And funnier too.

Greatguardian

01-17-2012, 12:54 PM

With all due respect, GG, shut up. You say you play a decent COR but somehow you fail to realize where a large portion of your damage is coming from, an Elemental WS. I don't see you complaining about Wildfire, because it is awesome. The people that actually play RDM want something awesome to do with all of their MAB as well.

Wildfire is not Cloudsplitter. Wildfire is the exception, not the rule. Wildfire is the only elemental weaponskill in the entire god damn game that is ever, ever worth using.

Oh yeah, and CdC can handily shit on Wildfire in Per-WS damage with a decent melee at the wheel. Wildfire Corsair is strong because it's Wildfire Corsair and can effectively 1-hit, not because elemental WS are sooper cool.

If you're being destroyed by a Wildfire COR, blame the fact that you're a 1-hand melee with no native offensive traits and crap combat skill swinging with a low D weapon and most likely shit-tier gear and MAcc swords. If a Wildfire Cor is shitting on you, it's probably because they're rocking multiple rolls, a 1-hit build, instant TP/damage JAs that boost WS damage by 15%, and a WS with a 15' range that literally cheats and bypasses typical dStat.

Ophannus

01-17-2012, 03:27 PM

If you're being destroyed by a Wildfire COR, blame the fact that you're a 1-hand melee with no native offensive traits and crap combat skill swinging with a low D weapon and most likely shit-tier gear and MAcc swords. If a Wildfire Cor is shitting on you, it's probably because they're rocking multiple rolls, a 1-hit build, instant TP/damage JAs that boost WS damage by 15%, and a WS with a 15' range that literally cheats and bypasses typical dStat.

They should rename Wildfire "Cheatshot" it would totally fit the whole Pirate/Gambler theme of Corsair.

ManaKing

01-17-2012, 03:48 PM

Neisan_Quetz

01-17-2012, 09:07 PM

I see no reason why my attraction for slashing stuff has to be related to a trait that enhances magical prowess, but apparently that's just me? The only exception I can think of is enspells, but they are hate free damage, and even if sch did benefit, at the very least they don't have as much issues as they used to with resistance.

SE's made it pretty clear how much they either 1. hate elemental weaponskills (older ones have either crap mods and/or have incredibly poor scaling, if they even have mods at all, and some aren't even affected by MAB...); 2. They're just going to make it exclusive, and this has gone as far back as Red Lotus Blade, so they have a record of doing this.

Until either of these scenario changes I'd rather stick to a sure deal, than one I'm confident SE is going to muck up somehow.

ManaKing

01-18-2012, 04:03 AM

Until either of these scenario changes I'd rather stick to a sure deal, than one I'm confident SE is going to muck up somehow.

I can respect that.

I still want mage-related buffs for RDM that just so happen to affect the rest of the job in a positive manner. The only reason I keep bringing this up is I don't want a couple more sloppy buffs to RDM, that generally offend most of us, and then SE call it a day. I think we all know how long it takes SE to get around to buffing specific jobs in FFXI. I don't want to get left out and then have to wait another year+ for another chance at it.

Neisan_Quetz

01-18-2012, 04:12 AM

I only have 2 concerns at the moment really, Enfeebling magic on difficult mobs (either being heavily resisted immune/having little to no effect) and Cure IV falling behind at higher level (personally, I think they should just remove the soft cap for III/IV). I can work around almost anything else.

Will Rage if SE's 'solution' is Paralyze III still not landing on mobs.

saevel

01-18-2012, 08:41 AM

I can respect that.

I still want mage-related buffs for RDM that just so happen to affect the rest of the job in a positive manner. The only reason I keep bringing this up is I don't want a couple more sloppy buffs to RDM, that generally offend most of us, and then SE call it a day. I think we all know how long it takes SE to get around to buffing specific jobs in FFXI. I don't want to get left out and then have to wait another year+ for another chance at it.

I never got that about the anti-melee-RDM crowd. None of us are diminishing the mage side, to the contrary many of the pro-melee-RDM's play the mage side just as much. What we're speaking out against is a side of our job that has mostly been neglected and sloppily implemented. No reason not to have a +MAB like spell that doesn't stack with Temper, or go one step further and add +FC or +Cure Pot spells that all overwrite each other. This way any RDM could turn themselves into "demi-gods" to support their party, which is the correct translation of that manifesto.

Ketaru

01-18-2012, 10:13 AM

As usual, the classier crowd shows up to tell me my opinion. Oh wait you missed again, that wasn't what I was thinking.

Sorry you don't agree with me and you can't manage to have a decent conversation without berating another person. I'll just leave you to your social dysfunctions and unimaginative ranting. Your pictures and swearing make amazing statements.

But it was certainly what you were saying.

Because comments like "The people that actually play RDM want something awesome to do with all of their MAB as well" totally wasn't worded to undermine other posters here. Drop the finger wagging. You're hardly a saint.

NQ gets props for being legit and a classy gentleman. Yeah i get it. You want to nuke and I want to hit stuff. No reason a RDM can't use MAB for both since you can. Would be nice if both of those aspects received favorable attention

I never got that about the anti-melee-RDM crowd. None of us are diminishing the mage side, to the contrary many of the pro-melee-RDM's play the mage side just as much.

For people who get all uppity thinking people misunderstand you, you are way off the mark here. Go back and try reading. It wasn't at all anti-melee anything. It was all talk about whether it was the right call to get the multi-crit WS that we got. Or would we have been better off with the magical WS. I say how about the option that covers more ground rather than more menu clutter for types of damage we're already capable of doing?

ManaKing

01-18-2012, 09:45 PM

Because comments like "The people that actually play RDM want something awesome to do with all of their MAB as well" totally wasn't worded to undermine other posters here. Drop the finger wagging. You're hardly a saint.

Well I should think not. I doubt I've taken any time to try to substantiate a claim for being canonized. That would be a complete waste of time and would be self contradictory.

GG admits he doesn't play RDM anymore. I have no interest in listening to his or anyone's opinion on RDM unless they are actually willing to play it. If you can't suffer through another ambiguous RDM phase then I don't really have any interest in listening to an opinion from someone that has already given up and is crying/trolling from the sidelines instead of playing the job that you should still love to play.

I solo aby NMs for my other jobs all the time with my RDM. It is a delight to play RDM in it's current incarnation on lower level content because it takes a level of effort that I've always associated with this game. I take my RDM to Dynamis because it is fun and I'm in no rush to throw away content that I'll enjoy as a RDM for the efficiency of another job. No idea when I'll get something new to play as a RDM, might as well enjoy playing it in the meantime.

The plain truth is that RDM doesn't do anything substantial in VW or any current content that came out in the last 2 level caps. I'm pretty tired of not having a legitimate role in a party through merits of my job. Enfeebles are broken and we are 2nd rate at everything else by design. Pretending that a staff on your back suddenly makes RDM viable again is a farce. The job isn't viable regardless of how hard any of us struggle to make it so.

I'm really not sure if you're aware of it, but my only real purpose for being on these forums in to start enough discussions about things I'm concerned about that so that I can make sure we didn't at least attempt to give feedback. Getting transparency from the Devs has proven impossible and RDM at 99 looks as crappy as it did at any other point after the level cap was raised. In my opinion, they have failed to properly integrate this job into the current state of this game. The only way I get any answers is by poking at the devs as hard as I can to see if I get a response.

Look at how many responses from devs there are on the board. Look who started those discussions. It shouldn't surprise you that Saevel and I, the horrible melee RDMs, have started the majority of those threads. I won't discount anyone else that participated in the discussions, because obviously participation is necessary to create discussions. But I see a common trend of people actually discussing things they are concerned over and then an irrational opposition coming in to start a turf war over the least viable job in the game.

Why don't the supposed pro mage RDMs start discussions on things you want to see happen to RDM instead of walking into other people's discussions and intentionally starting fights?

Do you just not have anything interesting to discuss? I'm sure you are capable of giving more than just constant criticism.

I just want to know why the supposed 'melee RDMs' are the only ones that show a vested interest in starting discussions on the future of where this job is going. I know it's must be shocking to some, but I (and I'm sure Saevel as well) actually play RDM as a mage. I just so happen to be willing to melee when I can't kite anything because enfeebles are useless now. I adapted to what the game would allow and had no interest in continuing RDM in a direction I thought was foolish to begin with as it became less and less viable to do so.

For people who get all uppity thinking people misunderstand you, you are way off the mark here. Go back and try reading. It wasn't at all anti-melee anything. It was all talk about whether it was the right call to get the multi-crit WS that we got. Or would we have been better off with the magical WS. I say how about the option that covers more ground rather than more menu clutter for types of damage we're already capable of doing?

I did read. You said Cloudsplitter was trash. I said Cloudsplitter is trash on WAR/BST. I made a distinction and expressed my opinion. The peanut gallery came in and insulted the idea that I would want an elemental based WS and buffs that would make sense to me for how I see RDM. Saevel and I comment back and forth why we don't understand the hostility and you see it as Melee RDM banter, where as we see it as discussing RDM as a whole. If you don't see melee as an option for RDM then you won't understand it, but realize that I see melee as the most viable option RDM has right now. It is not the only option I would entertain. But SE would have to actually make alternatives attractive and they don't seem to have any interest in making a full time mage RDM attractive anymore.

I will continue to comment that a multi-hit Crit WS, while attractive and useful, is still an obvious blanket adjustment to the job. In a game of comparisons, RDM will always come up short to other jobs so long as it is still playing by the same rules. RDM has a B in swords, so by comparison, it is always going to be inferior to the other sword users because we lack the attack power to drive a physical WS. Without a BLU to compare to, CDC on RDM is an amazing thing, but when the majority of the player base tells you that you shouldn't even touch a sword because you are a mage, then what is the point of even having the WS? We weren't included on Vorpal Blade, why should this be any different? The lack of consistency is troubling.

RDM has strengths that we both agree upon. It has a large repertoire of mage gear and job traits that enhance our magic attack bonus. But it will never have the same spell execution as a BLM or even a SCH because we are stuck on Tier IV nukes. The obvious solution, for me, to get around that restriction is to channel that abundance of MAB into another vehicle for delivery. My best solution is an elemental WS that punches holes in mobs.

Our other strength is that we are one of the toughest jobs in the game and can take more punishment that just about anyone besides a PLD. We already have reduced melee damage that is made up by hate-less enspell damage. We have the ability to stick on a mob and not draw as much hate as most jobs. We have the tools to be up front, we just have to be welcome there because we have something to offer.

Why would I want a physical WS to be decent at, when I could have a broken elemental WS like Wildfire to flourish with?

Why would I want to be 2nd rate at everything when I could have the best elemental WSs in the game? The reason RDM doesn't have good elemental WS isn't because they couldn't use them, it's because they were never given them to use.

I have no intention of settling for mediocre on these boards because that might be the end of it for RDM. We should be good at something, but we aren't right now and that legitimately isn't our fault. We haven't gotten any specialized attention from the dev team and we are in really bad shape because of it. Blanket buffs like Almace/CDC and Tier ups are what got us here in the first place. Why should we want more of the same treatment? They haven't even fixed enfeebling and that is just the beginning of our problems.

cidbahamut

01-18-2012, 11:13 PM

Well I should think not. I doubt I've taken any time to try to substantiate a claim for being canonized.

You get points for vocabulary.

http://www.comics101.com/comics101//news/Comics%20101/372/seal-of-approval.jpg

Daniel_Hatcher

01-18-2012, 11:32 PM

GG admits he doesn't play RDM anymore. I have no interest in listening to his or anyone's opinion on RDM unless they are actually willing to play it. If you can't suffer through another ambiguous RDM phase then I don't really have any interest in listening to an opinion from someone that has already given up and is crying/trolling from the sidelines instead of playing the job that you should still love to play.

To be fair: RDM was my first job when I joined over 4+ years ago, and even when I joined when it was first released is the UK. I would class RDM as my main job, and favorite job at that. That being said, even I am doubting whether I'll be continuing playing it much longer. (I have most the gear I want, am capping my skills etc... but even I know that RDM adds nothing to the current endgame, and I'm only gimping my group by using it when I could use something that is better in the current content) Whether someone plays as the job has little relevance on their opinion of the job, in fact it could be argued as being more relevant as it means they find it no longer fun, or worthwhile to play as so something could potentially be wrong.

RDM was never the greatest job to begin with, the only thing it had over other jobs was the ability to extend it's MP pool via Refresh and Convert, that and Enfeebles actually worked on quite a few things.

Now these things are gone, RDM has shown it's age, and the fact it actually isn't all that.

Basically my point being: Just because someone has stopped playing as a job, they leveled and played as it enough to give their opinion on where they think it needs improvement. (This doesn't include when they insult other posters, this or people that only leveled it to SJ or lower)

Neisan_Quetz

01-18-2012, 11:47 PM

I don't see why it matters if someone says they don't use Rdm anymore because of the state of it. I certainly couldn't fault them. Aside from voidwatch procs, messing around with old content and Relic+2 trials I can't fault anyone for not using Rdm. I still do because I like the job too much, but once again, only because I'm doing the above + magian trials, since I have no interest in leveling Blm. If I did I probably wouldn't use Rdm much/at all either.

ManaKing

01-19-2012, 05:32 AM

It's funny NQ, because you're one of the few people I legitimately respect on these forums. It's pretty obvious to me that you still play RDM because you still have an air of realism about the job. The reason I don't listen to most of the people on these forums that will straight disagree with me is they have lost that and moved on to something else, usually elitist banter.

Psxpert2011

01-19-2012, 07:10 AM

Dear Devs,

I'll chat to you on the XIV forums, tata! Keep up the good work, never mind ffXI =P

Your truely,
PSX

TRiPP

01-19-2012, 09:29 AM

My bad for the rant the other day, or week or what have you. I generally work overnights so I wrote that all with no sleep.

However!

This just seems like a civil war that needs to be squashed. We can't seem to come up with a simple agreement as to what Red Mage actually needs, we've got one side that squabbles over mage, other that squabbles over melee, others that squabble over enhancing, enfeebling and what have you. We need to find a ground in which we can all stand on and agree. Otherwise, I don't see this job going anywhere. All I've read so far is "OH BUT MELEE NEEDS THIS" or "MAGIC SIDE NEEDS THIS." Choose a common ground and work with it. I understand completely that Red Mage does have potential to be this or this but the Devs are hindering us currently. Which is fine, some make it work others can't/don't. So let's choose a common ground.

Deep down, I know that the mages want to melee, but their inventory is properly filled with things for other jobs. So I can see that inventory can become an issue to the situation of fixing it. That or they don't pull enough in their linkshell to be able to grab people to allow them to net themselves an Almace. Or not treated importantly enough. lolrdm.

I understand that it's almost the same for the melee side of Red Mage. However there's more to the mix than just inventory. More than likely it's the feeling of being tossed in the back like some sort of unwanted or unneeded trash. "Why come as Red Mage when you can come as another job?" Or even being stuck as a Pink Mage. (Mind you that I PVP as Red Mage. Melee style.) Granted I know that, that's not the smartest way to play or what have you, but I play the job how I damn well want just like the rest of you. Cause, that's just how I roll'.

Point being; find a common ground and stomp the devs out with it. That's all there is to it. If we can't figure out as a community what we want. Then Red Mage shall forever be stuck in Limbo in because we sure as hell don't know what we want as a community.

Again, find a common ground.
Find a common ground.
I'm restating it because I'm sure some of you will end up stating "OH BUT I WANT MELEE" or "I WANT MAGIC." or what have you. Simple as that find a common ground that we can all agree upon that needs to be fixed or added.

I'm heading to bed, I've got work in several hours.
Night you crazy kids.

ManaKing

01-19-2012, 02:18 PM

Oh we have common ground. All RDMs on this forum believe the job needs legit buffs badly. We just don't ever get any info from the devs so we fight like demons to pass the time until they show up and grace us with their presences. Seriously, Jobs broke, fix it. That's the common ground. Until they actually show any interest in doing anything for us, it is all any of us actually care about. Currently we have no time line and no specifics to quell all of this uncertainty.

The bickering will continue until the job is fixed.

Mageoholic

01-19-2012, 03:51 PM

saevel

01-19-2012, 07:05 PM

Id wager SE ignores RDM because every time a discussion comes up it devolves into a dick waving contest about melee. Guess what our melee is pretty decent at the moment, it isn't the best but there are a bunch of jobs who aren't the best, and some of those jobs can only melee. So suck it up.

To the Devs:

You gotta do something here its been about 8 years since you gave us any real attention.

Yes and no.

Buff wise our melee is mostly fine, what we're lacking is gear. We have no body TP piece over level 75, and the rest of our stuff is generic AH stuff that are subpar to what the other light armor class melee's have (BLU/NIN/THF/DNC/PUP/ect..). We're asking to be put on that gear. We don't need the stuff for WAR/PLD/DRK/DRG/SAM/BST. Enspells need a little tweaking due to them not scaling past 75 like they should of.

The debates on melee have more to do with "should a RDM be able to melee" not our actual capacity to melee, regardless of the straw-man arguments the naysayers put up. Some of us feel RDM's should be able to melee in most if not all content, others feel RDM should not melee and instead wield a staff and "support".

There is no doubt from anyone that buffs to all aspects need to happen. Better / more useful enfeebles, better heals and better access to melee gear.

Mageoholic

01-19-2012, 11:57 PM

Crimson_Slasher

01-20-2012, 01:44 AM

You know every time i read these forums lately, i get more the feeling we are mostly the cause for the lacking updates as of late just as much as the devs. Lets face it, look at the temper update, those that didnt like melee rdm really raged over that. It comes down to them being afraid of us. If they buff only melee, those looking for magic updates cry out in protest. If they buff only magic, the melee croud will revolt for melee being neglected yet again. Damned if you do, damned if you dont, and the devs are likely scared that even a mutual buff will be misunderstood by us to be either too melee or mage heavy, and we will start a riot. Reminds me of that one computer animated casper the friendly ghost movie where he goes to school. "If we scare the fleshies too much they will say "HEY You're scaring us to much!" and they will rise up against us, but if we dont scare them enough, they wont fear us and will rise up against us, we must maintain the balance" And, well, as a community, intelectual or not, we are admittedly a rather scary, disagreeable bunch! At this point i think id get more compromise at a debate over political issues than over redmage..

Greatguardian

01-20-2012, 02:10 AM

It's the natural consequence of having two starving lions in a den and only throwing in a scrap of bone once or twice a year.

Keep the lions fed and they won't give a damn about each other.

Mageoholic

01-20-2012, 03:44 AM

It's the natural consequence of having two starving lions in a den and only throwing in a scrap of bone once or twice a yearDECADE.

Keep the lions fed and they won't give a damn about each other.

fixed for accuracy.

tyrantsyn

01-20-2012, 04:32 AM

saevel

01-20-2012, 06:12 AM

Saevel I think you missed the point.

Instead of trying to turn this into melee discussion 10,000, why don't you go wander into one of those threads and discuss it there. You keep blocking people for trolling, yet every time you post its to bitch about how SE hasn't spoonfed you your daily dose of wannabe epeen, you are the biggest troll here, disrupting nearly every thread you post in, devolving it to a melee pissing match. RDM melee is a tool used in low man, low-medium content difficulty, the rest of the job is falling into shambles and we want to know what the plans SE has to fix it.

When a BRD/RDM can function as a support job as well as RDM main can, using our own spells and abilities, something is wrong, and needs to be addressed. I want to know why a BRD/RDM can heal as well as me, last nearly as long casting as me, use my buffs/convert, and then on top of that get max efficiency from their buffs. I honestly could give a rats ass why my melee isn't topping charts, it doesn't need to, because none of the single hand jobs are asked to come as melee DD's, if you need a melee DD you get a 2 hander. (but that is for a general discussion on balance issues within the melee system itself)

Melee is in a much better spot than 60% of our job, stop bitching about it. We all know SE lacks the ability to focus on more then one aspect of a job at a time. So let the fix our healing first, its a bloody disgrace that my Cure 4 heals as well as someone getting it from a sub job.

Umm no. You started the melee discussion 10,000 by taking a swipe at it, as usual.

Id wager SE ignores RDM because every time a discussion comes up it devolves into a dick waving contest about melee. Guess what our melee is pretty decent at the moment, it isn't the best but there are a bunch of jobs who aren't the best, and some of those jobs can only melee. So suck it up.

To the Devs:

You gotta do something here its been about 8 years since you gave us any real attention.

Then go about your typical anti-melee agenda. It's our least updated side, what your feeling about the support / enfeebling aspects is what anyone who attempted to play a hybrid RDM felt since 2003/2004.

If you don't start sh!t, I won't continue it.

cidbahamut

01-20-2012, 06:19 AM

ITT: melee enthusiasts are anti-melee.

Doombringer

01-20-2012, 11:07 AM

Mageoholic

01-20-2012, 01:49 PM

Then go about your typical anti-melee agenda.

Me Anti-Melee? Obviously you have no idea who I am do you. Cid could probably fill you in, but he is a blisted troll right.

It's out least updated side

are you high? RDM hasn't had a meaningful casting upgrade since it got refresh. It has been 8 years since out buff/debuffing actually received a make over. It has been 4 years since our enfeebles were actually useful, and our enhancing is a joke. (on anyone but ourselves.) Our melee has always been mediocre at best, exactly where it belongs, until Single handed DD's can gear swap into 900+ DMG nuking sets, or 600HP healing sets it shall always be right where it belongs.

I don't know why you are obsessed with wasting time discussing a topic that has been beaten to death over the last decade, and has in recent years received a great many buffs.

When was the last time our healing was buffed? Why can jobs sub Cure 4 and heal as well as us???? Isn't that a little more important then being one of a dozen melee, or better yet one of 7 melee that get passed over presently because on 4-5 are actually worth putting on a mob to DD.

Why have all of our recent buffs been restricted to ourselves and can't even be accessioned. Isn't that a better question to have answered then "Why do we have to use a level 75 body piece for our melee TP set.?". Why can't I give that SAM or DRG 13% DA, why can't I give them 25 STR? I can sure as hell haste there ass, but so can any job /whm or /rdm.

Why do our enfeebles suck so much, why are they all hit or miss, why has this issue that has been evident for years not been addressed, isn't that a little more important to ask then "why can't we have new daggers SE!!!!!"

Melee has received in no particular order in terms of direct improvements, Aoelian Edge, Death Blossom, Requis..., Extener...., CDC, Temper, Composure, change to Enspell macc calculations, Enspell IIs.

my buffing has received Refresh II
my debuffing has received Sabatour, Addle, Break
my nuking has received T4's MABIII

even those combined is less overall increase then what melee has received since ToAU.

Which begs to question again, why the hell do you bring melee up in every thread you post in. There are a bunch of issues much more important to the job then the small matters with melee. So again why don't you go to one of the 10,000 melee threads and rant and rave about having to wear a level 75 body to cap gear haste. Some of us are actually concerned for the whole job, not some gimmicky crap that is fun to do in situational events.

Seriha

01-20-2012, 03:07 PM

Seriously, RCD, drop the whole "Anyone can sub RDM and be just as good a healer!" line. Nobody's subbing the job for that purpose.

We've been over why before, and at best a 99 BLM would be imitating a 75 RDM. A MNK/RDM isn't landing enfeebles on fodder to help mitigate damage. Most other jobs are still limited to a light staff for cure potency boosts. /RDMs won't be curing statuses unless they're WHM or SCH. Non-MP jobs will have a pitiful MP supply for endurance. Shell V is still better than Shell II, last I checked.

It's rather short-sighted to say the mage side has been ignored, too. T2 merits weren't always there. Staves were there for a long frickin' time without even the slightest competitive martial counterpart. Yigit set, Goliard set, Morrigan's set, Teal set, Emp set, and myriad other stray pieces all promoted mage a lot better than being left off Pulawhatever, Enkidu, Aurore, and other "light melee" pieces that BLUs at least show up on. Comparatively, sub-76 spell growth for other older jobs didn't really change much, either. It took the WHM update to introduce Cura, Esuna, and Sacrifice to them with the corresponding JAs. They also helped to boost WHM's popularity while Composure did very little for our community perception. Hell, much like some feel Temper wasted, others felt the same of Composure's ACC+ element. I can't say I blame them, either, with all the collective issues that have added up against RDM.

But hey, hide behind the epeen defense, too. It's not like melee could never offer a wanted utility element. Not at all. Wait, is this where you tell people to level DNC now? Of course, the RDMs wanting to hit for more than single digits at the same time isn't a crime, either. "You're better off nuking!" "Stop feeding the mob TP!" "RDM isn't a real DD so don't bother!" Pick your flavor of BS, we've been there, done that. Melee's needed more help than mage. After all, we've had some mage aspects (in)directly nerfed. That certainly wouldn't have happened if they sucked.

Mageoholic

01-20-2012, 04:52 PM

When was the last time our healing was buffed? Why can jobs sub Cure 4 and heal as well as us????

I am assuming you are referring to that.

just to pick apart your clearly angry reply a bit.

BLM can break the cure potency cap just like RDM, so really it is healing like a 99 RDM, yet has no healing skill.
- it also has bad ass nukes, can land enfeebles, has its own unique enfeebles, native stun, 2 aspir spells (that don't need /SCH to be effective), generous conserve MP, enmity douse, manawall if you do get attention, and manafont if for some reason you are out of MP. Oh and it can nuke for much more then us when it isn't healing, and RDM tends to be its default sub the majority of the time.

SMN can break the potency cap just like RDM, so really it is healing like a 99 RDM, yet has no healing skill.
- has numerous other buffs, it also has debuffs, it also has status removal, an additional MP regeneration tool, unique heals, great offensive burst damage, a wonderful 2 hour that reduces incoming damage for everyone.

BRD can sit at 49% (im sure it can break it I just haven't got the items I don't think.), so really it is healing like a 99 RDM, yet has no skill.
- posses 2 of the best buffs in the game that can go along with 2 other great buffs, has limited MP but it also has access to more Refresh than RDM does, via /RDM meaning it has a solid durability.

BLU doesn't benefit as much from cure potency but /RDM they double their MP pool, have a native Cure 5 that is on a generous recast, they have their own unique debuffs that can actually land, they can set numerous stuns to restrict incoming damage, the native ability to AoE the majority of their buffs. They also have high offensive power.

these happen to be the big ones, all of them have no healing magic skill, yet somehow can all heal as well as a RDM. Now you can throw status removal in as you usually do, but thanks to the wonders of Aura debuffs most mobs have these days it is pretty irrelevant to assume this is a game breaking change. If it is so bad then the only one who losses out really is BRD the rest can /WHM and get those little -na's and still heal as well as a RDM.

The point was mrs semantics that a job with healing skill is matched for the most part by jobs without healing skill, and those jobs also bring to the table much more than RDM. You could also add COR to this list as well, although they are more like a 75 RDM healing than a BLM.

If you honestly believe that our Melee side needs more help then the mage side I would tell you to go level another job, but knowing you, you probably have them all at cap anyway and have run out of inventory space again.

and as much as I would love to argue with you over misquoting me and your obvious anger towards my opinion on how melee is just fine, I am going to leave it at that. I would rather +1 on alla making you look silly then on the official boards where the player base is just as ignored.

Pulawhatever

we were on that gear btw tard http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Pahluwan_Armor_Set not to mention Goliard still offers one of the best melee bodies we can wear for TP, but that is bad isn't wearing haste gear to cap gear haste during TP. (lol)

saevel

01-20-2012, 08:49 PM

So Mageholic is RDD / RCD huh. Explains a lot. Added to Ignore list.

Neisan_Quetz

01-20-2012, 09:14 PM

Should have mentioned Pup, since they can only hit ~41% (!) cure potency (of course pup has no native mp bar but the auto sucks less now. Job still has other problems etc.). 24% Staff, 2-3% torque, 5% Roundel (Why is pup on this lol), 10-15% body, 5% hand/feet, 4% back, that's 50% Cure pot for Blm/Smn/Rdm. Brd isn't on Roundel but is on Staves, and can reach 50% with either HQ Fylgja or Heka's Kalasiris. Sch isn't on Roundel but is on Praeco Slacks, so they cap with HQ Fylgja or Heka's Kalasiris.

cidbahamut

01-20-2012, 11:34 PM

A MNK/RDM isn't landing enfeebles on fodder to help mitigate damage.
I thought the general consensus was that fodder mobs die too fast for enfeebling them to be anything other than a waste of mp outside of maybe Dia. Isn't that why we're all up in arms over NM resist rates? Because enfeebles aren't worth casting on fodder, but bosses where it would be useful resist it?

Did I miss something?

tyrantsyn

01-21-2012, 12:34 AM

I thought the general consensus was that fodder mobs die too fast for enfeebling them to be anything other than a waste of mp outside of maybe Dia. Isn't that why we're all up in arms over NM resist rates? Because enfeebles aren't worth casting on fodder, but bosses where it would be useful resist it?

Did I miss something?

Yea but than some one goes off topic and some one correct's them and than it all down hill from there.

Mageoholic

01-21-2012, 12:35 AM

No you didn't miss anything.

So Mageholic is RDD / RCD huh. Explains a lot. Added to Ignore list.

lol kinda makes your anti-melee comments earlier a little silly doesn't it. (wonder how long it will take this guy to blist everyone who disagrees with him.)

Neisan_Quetz

01-21-2012, 12:36 AM

I thought wasting time casting unnecessary enfeebles on fodder mobs stopped at 75 but I guess I was wrong.

tyrantsyn

01-21-2012, 12:37 AM

Not long, it'll be him and 2 other ppl before he know's it.

Mageoholic

01-21-2012, 12:51 AM

the best part is he would have argued with me about my anti-melee RDM rhetoric for days, which is odd considering I have been arguing the validity of RDM melee for about 5-6 years now, as a very pro-melee enthusiast I feel it is in the 40% of the job that actually functions well, meaning the devs need to focus on the other 60% you know healing, enhancing, enfeebling.

tyrantsyn

01-21-2012, 01:51 AM

Yea, i had a back and fourth with him a while back over a joke that he didn't get. I'm sure he block me over it as well so. Personally I wouldn't block him, I'd rather see what he has to say. But that's just me.

Anduril

01-21-2012, 02:33 AM

cidbahamut

01-21-2012, 02:36 AM

At the least give us a spell like repose. I'm so tired of watching whms doing crowd control while all Rdms can do is some back up heals and haste once in awhile. Seems we've gone from refresh whore to leech whore.

Have you tried using Break? Honestly, that's your answer to stuff that's resistant to Dark based sleeps. RDM can do crowd control better than a White Mage, it's no contest.

Crimson_Slasher

01-21-2012, 02:46 AM

Im sure a lot of others are gonna dissagree, but i am happy with where curing is. I mean yeah id like more heal power but... frankly, im happy other jobs can sub us for our support and healing functions. Its 1/3rd our job, why should it matter if thats able to be subbed? Look at ninja? you get 2/3rds theirs shadows subbing them and thf, dnc, and some other jobs can blink/eva tank nearly or as well. Frankly, i dont see more cure IVs flying about as a bad thing and if they can heal as good as me, thats that many less cures ill be demanded to cast, letting me focus on, what? Nuking, Meleeing, Enfeebling, select buffing as the situation arises!

Melee im happy with the direction its gone it, we need (and this is painful to say) <more gear> and maybe another buff or two but otherwise, its come a long way and im glad to see it. Nuking, ive never been happier and atleast we are acknowledged as nukers, at 75 people always said "you cant nuke with T3 nukes!" but i havent heard a thing about my T4s. Debuffing if it worked on things, id be mostly happy but im still for AOE debuffs cause then it would make casting them on clustered fodder more relevent. Pop off a debuff in a swarm somewhere in dyna or abyssea and get back to whatever else im doing. Buffing, unless we got barspell speeds and recasts -AND- costs, id find a really tedius task to maintain on larger scales, so a few hastes and refreshes is perfectly fine by me. Id like to get the weapons (dagger) and the armor to ws better, haste would be nice to get some updates but as it stands im nearly capped haste without body so i could swap that for something else even.

We do decent at taking hits, nuking, meleeing, healing, debuffing, and buffing, not A+ by any means. Id like to see our average rise across the board but...honestly if i had to pick, healing should get passed around, minimal heals being passed out wide seems like it would make any party/event more stable. My $0.02 on the overall topic. Would i take a heal buff? Sure. Would i ask for one, prolly not. I like potency gear.

Neisan_Quetz

01-21-2012, 02:55 AM

Daniel_Hatcher

01-21-2012, 03:27 AM

Adjustments to it are already underway (hopefully) so I'm not that worried about curing. Healing skill having little effect and tier 4 and below soft capping quickly is what should be addressed.

Elemental Barpsells cast quickly... the status ones I have a slight issue with but it's not as if you're trying to swap between them mid fight often.

It's probably too much to hope SE would buff phalanx II, or at least make it so you don't need 5 merits for the same potency as Phalanx 1.

It should be the sam duration as Phalanx at tier I, then the remaining increases it so at 500 Enhancing it'd be:

Merit points - Phalanx effect

35
38
41
44
47

and so on.

That way 1 merit would be Phalanx but party castable, and each additional merit makes it stronger than Phalanx.

Mageoholic

01-21-2012, 03:41 AM

It shouldn't even be a merit, it should be a scroll, just like the rest our lulzy bunch of group 2 options. None of them should be merits, they should have been scrolls in the 50-75 region.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-21-2012, 03:47 AM

It shouldn't even be a merit, it should be a scroll, just like the rest our lulzy bunch of group 2 options. None of them should be merits, they should have been scrolls in the 50-75 region.

True enough.

Greatguardian

01-21-2012, 03:47 AM

Adjustments to it are already underway (hopefully) so I'm not that worried about curing. Healing skill having little effect and tier 4 and below soft capping quickly is what should be addressed.

Elemental Barpsells cast quickly... the status ones I have a slight issue with but it's not as if you're trying to swap between them mid fight often.

It's probably too much to hope SE would buff phalanx II, or at least make it so you don't need 5 merits for the same potency as Phalanx 1.

Eh, I still maintain that Phalanx 2 was built around gimps. High base, tawdry increases. The people they expect to be using Phalanx 2 probably can't touch it with their Phalanx 1's. The rest of us can Accession 1.

Not an ideal by any means, but the spell makes sense that way.

tyrantsyn

01-21-2012, 03:58 AM

Have you tried using Break? Honestly, that's your answer to stuff that's resistant to Dark based sleeps. RDM can do crowd control better than a White Mage, it's no contest.

Break's a nice option and can also be used with Manifestation. Tho it's duration blow's and doesn't work the way a Petrify spell should. You'll never gain enough enmity to put you into trouble if some one attacks one of the mob's while under it.

Neisan_Quetz

01-21-2012, 03:59 AM

If I didn't have to butcher my merits for VW I'd have kept 5/5 Phalanx II, it's better than bio/blind/Para2 above 1 imo. It's tied to Phalanx 1 at 5/5 but loses at every tier under 5/5, that isn't right for a Tier 2 merit compared to a spell you get at level 33. If it's going to be that terrible, turn them all into scrolls and give us better merit categories.

cidbahamut

01-21-2012, 04:12 AM

Break's a nice option and can also be used with Manifestation. Tho it's duration blow's and doesn't work the way a Petrify spell should. You'll never gain enough enmity to put you into trouble if some one attacks one of the mob's while under it.

Meh, Break's duration is fine. It wears off right as the recast timer ends. It could be worse...

tyrantsyn

01-21-2012, 04:17 AM

True, I just wish them damn spell work right.

ManaKing

01-21-2012, 07:21 PM

It's the natural consequence of having two starving lions in a den and only throwing in a scrap of bone once or twice a year.

Keep the lions fed and they won't give a damn about each other.

Favorite thing you've ever said.

Our melee has always been mediocre at best, exactly where it belongs, until Single handed DD's can gear swap into 900+ DMG nuking sets, or 600HP healing sets it shall always be right where it belongs.

Umm... why is this hard again? It's just macro gear you have to put together for RDM....just like everything else on the job. You want to be good at X you better get X gear because we suck at pretty much everything innately.

tyrantsyn

01-22-2012, 12:12 AM

Umm... why is this hard again? It's just macro gear you have to put together for RDM....just like everything else on the job. You want to be good at X you better get X gear because we suck at pretty much everything innately.

I think he's was refering to actually DD job's being able to swap into nuke gear or healing "WAR,DRK,DRG" Not RDM swapping into those gear set's.

TRiPP

01-22-2012, 02:01 AM

I've noticed that there's a couple of people out there that seem to think you're a troll when you disagree with them. On a side note... who the hell is RCD? I mean, what does it stand for?

I do have to say that I do enjoy how each side takes it to the extreme... It makes me lol.

"HUH WUT U WANT MOR MAGEY STUFF? WELL IM SORY THAT U DNT HAVE EVERY MAGE EQUIPMENT IN THE GAME, OR EVERY MAGE SPELL IN THE GAME. OUR MAGIC IS FINE JUST TEH WAY IT ESS. WE CAN OUTPOWER BLMS AND MAKE BLUS LOOK LIKE WHM WHEN IT COMES TO NUKEZ, LULZ. CURING POWRZ WHO NEEDZ A WHM LULZ, WE CAN HIT THE 150% CURE CAP."
(Yes, that is how you come across to others. I know it's a 50% Cure Cap. Just pointing out how it's coming across as.)

Then there's the other side of the spectrum.
"HUHZ U WANT 2 HIT LIKE A WARRIOR WITH ALL YOUR TP GEAR AND MELEE THINGS?! Y U NO LEVEL WARRIOZ THEN AND LEAVE US WITH OUR MAGE THINGS. WHO CURZ IF U HAS AN ALAMCE. Y U NO GO UKKOS A MOB ON RDM HUHHUH?"
(Again, this is how each side views each other basically, probably a little less intelligent than how I posted it.)

Be more civil with each other. This is like a bad marriage. That means knock it off with the blisting. It's not cute, it doesn't prove anything if anything you just end up making the other guy feel like he's/she's right in what they said. You're man enough to claim this, then be man enough to pull through with it. You can't simply just be "oh well u disagree wit me u must be troll D:< i blist u". At this point, I'm just waiting to get blisted for simply saying "Sup?"

In short, if someone disagrees with you, it's not trolling, perhaps they may not know better and they're going by eyeballing. Hence it's up to you to prove otherwise, and remember, just like yourself if you're going around blisting people on a whim, they may not be fast learners, but they will understand eventually.

As for gears which is primarily a big thing now a days specifically. Remember just because you're lucky enough to have an LS that's willing to put up with your crap to get you an Almace for Red Mage, it doesn't mean that the rest of us have something like that. No, it's not having it handed to us, before someone goes about "OH U WANT IT HANDED 2 U HUHZ? I HAD TO WORK A WHOLE DAY TO GET MY ALMACE, IF I CANZ DO IT U CANZ 2 O THE HORROR OF HAVING TO SIT BACK AND KEY WHILE THE ALLIANCE DOES EVERYTHING." I don't care if you duo'd it, trio'd it, allianced it, flew it in on a truck. Point remains, not all of us are that lucky to have a partner, or duo box, or have an LS to help us when we feel like going on a whim. If only, right?

However, there are a few people who have actually proven things correctly without looking like the other side is taking it to the extreme. (View examples above.) So the question is this, which one are you?

(Also, lol @ the people who are going to blist me after this.) I can just see a few of you with your monocles and your jaw drapping and speaking out "MY WORD, THIS FELLOW REALLY RUFFLES MY JIMMIES."

Conclusion. Ya'll need marriage counselling.

Stay away from dem fractals ya'll.

tyrantsyn

01-22-2012, 02:16 AM

Only the Dev's can save us from raging over one another.

We need Susan Sarandon to come in a a do a psa for us. Before we all Troll ourselves to death :rolleyes:

TRiPP

01-22-2012, 02:58 AM

Despite it looking very trollish, very trollish indeed. I'm not actually trolling that much I can tell you. I'm just putting it in that sense because that's how everyone else's remarks look like to me. Some sort of pissing contest between mage and melee.

Although, I honestly do believe that some people need to research what troll/trolling actually means. I think some just go to google and click on images and type in troll. So they imagine Shrek on the other side of the computer.

Although, I know after posting that, I definitely will get blisted, just because it would be against people's ethics to not blist someone who points things out, or disagrees with them. It's the easy way out button to be honest. "Don't want to confront your problems? Black list them. Someone disagree with you? Black list them. Detect sarcasm in their text? Black list them." The list goes on. I'm not stating names, but there are some major offenders.

All you do when you blist is, you show that you're an elitist, that's all there is to it.
"You disagree with my point, you're obviously a horrible player, I am better than you." Is all that gets stamped on your forehead.

When I say find a common ground, I don't mean something as vague as "We need buffs that's our common ground." I mean be specific, find something that we can all agree on that needs to be buffed. That's what we should do, we find one common ground that needs to be buffed and we go from there.

Melee is decent as it is, sure we just need one TP body, but is that it? I mean, you're neglecting everything else for just a TP body? That it? When resources can be placed in other parts of Red Mage that truly need them? Yes, I agree that we need more sword weapon skills. This is what it just seems like the melee enthusiasts are fighting about. What you want your epeenmace to dispense brews that can be used inside and outside of abyssea?

Remember this, you're a Red Mage. You're a mage first and foremost. You're not a Warrior, you're not a Samurai. You're a Mage first and foremost. Yes, you can melee, but not as efficiently as other jobs.
Blue Mages can use swords, and they can fight, yashure. Your point? None, because they deal the majority of their damage via Blue magic. Don't expect to see a Blue Mage pull out a 7K WS, expect it with their magic.

I'm not against a bit of a melee boost for Red Mage, however with that in mind remember we're mages first, and everything else second. I understand that for either side that gets boosted, the other side needs a boost as well to comply with both spectrums. However, put this into consideration, how would you feel as another job if you saw a whole update to just Red Mage?
"This update we're going to focus mainly on Red Mage. We're giving you native Vorpal Blade, several TP bodies, several pieces of equipment that you can focus on either spectrum of the job. To the mage spectrum we're going to add these spells; <insert x amount of spells here.>" Imagine how salty the other jobs would feel? Specially since we just finally got rid of most of the White Mages that came here and objected to us getting Cure V, because they feel as if suddenly the world would shatter if that were to occur.

Yeah, I get it... It's occurring to us right now. However, we don't know what SE is planning or what they're going to do. How salty do you think a Warrior would feel if suddenly we ranked them in damage? Pretty damn salty. ( I know that some of you are going to state "But we don't want to be as strong as Warrior, we just want a small boost.") Well, it doesn't work that way, and small boost that we get, we'll have an outcry from several jobs that we're overpowered and that suddenly their seat has been nabbed from under them. Kind of how we feel right now.

I'm not saying let's place trust in SE, because as we've seen time and time again they're made fools of us all.
I'm just saying let's get under one banner that we all desire to see fixed and propose that. While it will go unheard for a while, eventually the devs will realize "Well, they're not being childish anymore." We need one thing to be fixed, and then we can continue with the rest. That's what I mean by find a common ground.

TRiPP

01-22-2012, 03:11 AM

Mageoholic

01-22-2012, 04:03 AM

Remember this, you're a Red Mage. You're a mage first and foremost. You're not a Warrior, you're not a Samurai. You're a Mage first and foremost. Yes, you can melee, but not as efficiently as other jobs.
Blue Mages can use swords, and they can fight, yashure. Your point? None, because they deal the majority of their damage via Blue magic. Don't expect to see a Blue Mage pull out a 7K WS, expect it with their magic.

Hate to nit pick but isn't this the kind of spiel you just blasted myself and Saev for?

Its funny you brought blue mage up though since we were discussing job relevance lets examine BLU in comparison to RDM.

- Cure V
- Refresh
- Haste
- Aspir
- Drain
- AoE Nukes (physical and magical damage)
- Single Target Nukes (physical and magic damage)
- stoneskin
- blink
- many stuns
- slow
- paralyze
- silence
- more
- various traits from MAB to DA, DW to Refresh pretty much anything and everything.
- EX sword WS's
(can AoE a spell natively every 10 minutes)
- Self Skilchain/MB

Now they can't set all of these at the same time, unlike RDM. But they do have a generous timer of 1 minute. That is a complete customizable diversity, every BLU can be different.

RDM functions in the same way but instead of spells we rely on subjobs, we make our selves unique in the sense of our subjob defining us. Unfortunately it takes more than a minute to change our primary focus in most cases (warping or getting D2/ D.Warp). We are either locked into support or locked into offense. (our support side is pretty shit at the moment, our offensive side is pretty decent however).

So really BLU is a lot more versatile, and probably the saddest part, they are better healers, nukers. While RDM is the better native enhancer and melee (read melee damage not BLU spells mrs semantics). Both are about even in enfeebling consider slow and para are mostly useless no matter who puts them on. BLU might edge out just because they have the stuns too.

Neisan_Quetz

01-22-2012, 04:06 AM

But Blu can't heal outside pt with blue healing spells and their refresh/haste is single target! Barance!

Also lacking decent nukes for certain elements if it matters/somewhat inferior nuking gear as well.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-22-2012, 04:20 AM

Big wall of crap.

How.... fascinating.

Mageoholic

01-22-2012, 04:21 AM

I'm not against a bit of a melee boost for Red Mage, however with that in mind remember we're mages first, and everything else second.

What the hell does this even mean. What kind of mage are we? Are we a support mage? a healer? a nuker? if we can be all those is it that far fetched we could also be a melee. I mean we do have 2 melee skills that are both higher than 2 of our magic skills. What kind of mage are we???

I play (and invite) RDM because it is a gap filler /SCH it can slide around the back line in various disciplines, /NIN it can be an effective support mage/melee.

- Well on paper at least with SE limiting enhancements Ill bring a BRD/RDM (or /WHM if we need the extra -nas) because RDM as a support job is just not worth the party slot, and as such it makes no sense to have a RDM come just as a DD, or just as a Healer, or just as a Nuker when there are jobs that preform those roles better than a RDM. Until SE address the enhancement and enfeebling issues RDM will have no identity because it is not a Healing Mage, it is not a Nuking Mage, and it is not a Melee. It is a Support Mage that uses several secondary skills to fill gaps, a support mage, with a limited ability to support.

ManaKing

01-22-2012, 02:43 PM

I'd make a suggestion, but I'm sure that it would be either taken out of context, or simply disagree'd upon. I'd say let's choose someone to be the Red Mage representative. One that can convey the thoughts to the Devs. So that it gets heard loud and clear. However, it's tedious and annoying and possibly a lot of work, and not to mention who here doesn't really have a secret agenda as to what they want Red Mage to be? We need someone who'll look out for the best interest for Red Mage all around, and not one that'll just simply focus on one aspect because they do it on their down time. There's obviously something else I want to say. (As you've all gathered, I don't really make one liner posts.) However, that's just taking it to a personal level.

My secret agenda is that I want RDM to be good. You figured out my secret.

I'm sorry for our collective lack of apathy, but we've been doing this for awhile. A lot has been talked about and Devs haven't done much at all...ever...to RDM. If you want to go back and read through 'On RDM melee' (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...) you'll find 150 pages of us discussing ideas and raising hell. That is only 1 thread, there are 7 total pages on RDM forums right now. There has been plenty of discussion and plenty of feedback. If you want to discuss something specific, then start a thread and make it clear what you want discussed. There is no magic way to petition Devs or affect change other than bringing up what you are personally concerned with.

As you've seen, organizing RDMs makes them fight like demons. You're essential doomed from the start if you think we will elect a representative in a democratic manner to represent the republic of RDM.

ALSO, if everyone would please stop saying that RDM is a Mage first and foremost. We aren't first at anything. We are second at everything and in many cases marginalized to much worse than that. The only thing we are actually even 2nd best in the game at is toughness, right behind PLD. We aren't the 2nd best healer, nuker, or melee. I'm in no way speaking to the idealism that we all hold to be true, but the actuality that you have been given in game by our Dev Team.

A RDM is a composite job that was given enough diversity to allow it to create additional game play elements like kiting solos and TP-less melee with ceremonial daggers. That diversity was pruned off by the Dev team and was left in the horrible state it is today. Our Enfeebling was torn to shreds and that was our only A rank Skill. The only realistic action we should be taking is continuing to tell the Dev team they are doing it wrong and they still have work to do. I have almost no faith in their ability to properly fix Enfeebles so that RDM is desirable at all, even though that is all they have to do to pull RDM out of the gutter.

It's not like I don't still love playing RDM, but I don't love playing it in real groups because it has nothing to contribute against higher difficulty NMs. If you think your RDM is contributing, just realize every other job doesn't share your opinion. You just aren't good enough by design and you bring nothing unique or significant to the table that can't easily be eclipsed by another job.

Mageoholic

01-22-2012, 03:18 PM

The problem with most RDM's is that they argue over secondary skills. I used to argue about melee, and healing, because at the times that I did they were bottom of the barrel. The issue is now that our primary focus is also very weak and this is not good. Ive said it I think in this topic (if not at least my own). RDM is not invited for its ability to heal, or its ability to nuke, or its ability to melee. There are jobs in this game that simply do these things better. RDM was invited to enfeeble mobs, and enhance party members, its secondary abilities of healing, nuking, melee were just holes it could fill, need more magic damage it would nuke, need more healing it would heal, need more melee it would melee.

RDM is none of those things at its core, RDM is a support mage, it weakens mobs and buffs party members, what it does after that is highly situational and at the 75 cap at least was fairly well balanced.

But SE has let the strengths that define our job diminish, SE has let the abilities that allow us to use our secondary skills deteriorate. Why bring a RDM when /RDM provides haste and refresh as well as their own buffs/debuffs/damage. Why bring a RDM when WHM or /WHM can provide haste and other buffs a RDM can't(boost as main WHM).

The simple fact is everything a RDM provides to a group is based on its ability to buff and debuff, otherwise there is no reason to bring a RDM when WHM and SCH heal better, or BLM and SCH nuke better or <insert melee> melee's better.

You can bitch all you want about the secondary aspects of nuking and healing and melee, but the fact is RDM is never going to be picked over the jobs that excel in these fields. Even if you needed a hybrid nuker/healer SCH is much more useful in this vein, similar to DNC who is a more efficient hybrid healer/dd.

Until SE fixes the issues with the core abilities of RDM (enfeebling and enhancing) the job will be passed over, unless SE decides to make the job over powered and capable of taking a spot from WHM or BLM or <insert melee job>.

So yes go off to your nuke needs a buff, melee needs a buff, healing needs a buff threads, adjusting those individually will not get you anymore invites, because frankly SE will have to add a lot to make the SECONDARY skill set of RDM match the PRIMARY skill set of other jobs.

Before Mrs. Semantics jumps all over me, I don't think healing magic works right in general, not just in terms of RDM. There is no reason a job using /WHM or /RDM should be able to cure for the same base amount. I don't care if RDM WHM and SCH can break cure potency or not, the fact is without the gear any job in this game can hit 400 cure 4's, and that is not right and needs to be fixed. Through an adjustment to healing magic separating those with native skill and those without, before gear is applied. A naked MNK/RDM will cure for nearly the same amount as a RDM SCH or WHM casting Cure 4, this is not right. Just like it isn't right a WHM can cast Slow I as strong as us, or that a SCH/RDM can give the same haste as us. What really isn't right is a SCH being able to AoE Phalanx as strong as our merited (5/5) Phalanx II single target, what really isn't right is that a lvl 44 NIN spell provides the exact same benefit as a merited (5/5) Blind.

But yes go ahead and bitch about our secondary skills, ask SE to make you gods of nuking healing and melee, at the end of the day they will either nerf it, or it still won't be as good as dedicated jobs. RDM's road to utility lies in its enhancing and enfeebling, using its secondary skills to support the group in whichever role needs support. Until SE addresses the issues with the primary abilities (enfeebling and enhancing) RDM will be considered useless in group play. (outside its T2 procs which may or may not disappear with SE's change to procs in VW).

Daniel_Hatcher

01-22-2012, 10:03 PM

RDM is none of those things at its core, RDM is a rubbish mage, it weakens mobs via enfeebles (well it's supposed to in words only) and that's it.

Fixed for ya!

Big walls of text changes nothing.

Haste + Refresh != Enhancer. Argue all you want, the only enhancing RDM does well is on itself which is apparently the way SE wants it.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 12:30 AM

:rolleyes:Which is why we make threads asking them to change it...

Daniel_Hatcher

01-23-2012, 01:43 AM

:rolleyes:Which is why we make threads asking them to change it...

You're asking them to make RDM a role they specifically said it was not.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 02:04 AM

Im sorry where did they say RDM was not the job that had the ability to turn its allies into demi gods? I am pretty sure that is what they defined the job as in their going forward spiel a year ago. Unfortunately we can't do that with healing magic, we can't do that with nuking, we can't do that with melee. We could do that with enfeebling, and enhancing, however our enfeebles do not work and our enhancements are self target only.

RDM is a buffing/debuffing job that can not effectively buff and debuff currently. (at least in any capacity that other jobs can not do as well as us). RDM was never invited for its ability to melee first, why do that when you can get a warrior, it was brought because it could buff and debuff and melee, it was never invited as a healer first, it was brought to buff and debuff and then heal, it was not invited as a nuker it was invited to buff and debuff then nuke.

The job has always been about buffs/debuffs, SE has limited both, and thus RDM is limited. They can buff the shit out of healing nuking melee till the cows come home, but it will either be nerfed or never be as good as WAR WHM BLM thus leaving RDM as useless as it is now.

No the only solution to RDM's issues is fixing our buffs/debuffs. That is it. That is the key to the utility of the job. Period.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-23-2012, 02:10 AM

Neisan_Quetz

01-23-2012, 02:25 AM

And that vision line is still bullshit.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 03:24 AM

and of course you have proof of SE stating it was mistranslated then?

It was invited because it had better MP control then WHM, and that was it. WHM now does it good enough so RDM no longer is welcome.

You never did endgame very much I take it. RDM was brought to cast Slow/Para/Refresh/Haste and crowd control (depending on the event), and fill in holes as needed which was generally healing or nuking, but melee was on that was also done (at least by me).

This is what a RDM did. Buffed Debuffed and filled holes in the group. It was invited because its enfeebles were needed and it was the best job for buffing. Now its enfeebles are not useful, and its buffs (except refresh II) are subbable.

Allowing RDM to cast all of their buffs on allies and enfeebles being useful is the only way this job will ever have relevance. Other wise you just bring BRD/RDM to do all the buffing, and WHM to stick slow/para.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-23-2012, 03:38 AM

and of course you have proof of SE stating it was mistranslated then?

You never did endgame very much I take it. RDM was brought to cast Slow/Para/Refresh/Haste and crowd control (depending on the event), and fill in holes as needed which was generally healing or nuking, but melee was on that was also done (at least by me).

This is what a RDM did. Buffed Debuffed and filled holes in the group. It was invited because its enfeebles were needed and it was the best job for buffing. Now its enfeebles are not useful, and its buffs (except refresh II) are subbable.

Allowing RDM to cast all of their buffs on allies and enfeebles being useful is the only way this job will ever have relevance. Other wise you just bring BRD/RDM to do all the buffing, and WHM to stick slow/para.

Yes, from someone that actually speaks Japanese.

Yes, enough to basically make RDM Pink-Mage, and just a poor mans WHM.

ManaKing

01-23-2012, 04:00 AM

It's perfectly fine to point out that enfeebling is what we are supposed to be good at, but SE already said RDM is a self enhancer (gain spells + Temper). Furthermore, the job manifesto came out a while back and you can see the amazing work they have put in to make RDM anything like a demigod or an enfeebling specialist. Break and Gravity 2? GTFO of here. They were useless on arrival. What else are we getting? Looks like a big fat nothing.

The reason there are a bunch of crabby, pissy RDMs that fight with each other on this forum is that we have been looking forward to progress for the last year and we have received absolutely nothing that fixes our extremely lengthy list of on-going problems. We may get a healing adjustment when the dev team gets around to fixing healing for all jobs. We may get enfeebling adjustments when they do them for the other mage jobs. But open your eyes. They aren't going to do a RDM update until the very last minute. It will be an update that would have been valid years ago, but when that they finally get around to doing it, it will be too little too late and we will already be outdated again. Just look at their track record, we get fixes when it affects other jobs.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 04:50 AM

Yes, enough to basically make RDM Pink-Mage, and just a poor mans WHM.

RDM was never as good as WHM. I don't know so many think it was.

actually I do know why, it is because the majority of people didn't actually do endgame, they sat in EXP all day the one place where RDM was better than WHM, at least until SCH came out.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-23-2012, 05:07 AM

RDM was never as good as WHM. I don't know so many think it was.

actually I do know why, it is because the majority of people didn't actually do endgame, they sat in EXP all day the one place where RDM was better than WHM, at least until SCH came out.

Nope, they didn't. You're still stuck in your PLD was useful in endgame stage. /sigh

Take note: It was a rubbish WHM, but that was irrelevant. RDM could heal well enough and control it's MP, WHM could not. As such WHM was near useless without a MP enhancer and an even worse enfeebler so. 1 space is better than 3 spaces for an enhancer, enfeebler and healer.

Endgame was done one way: The smallest amount of support and more DD's you could get away with the better.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 01:27 PM

That is complete and utter crap. If anyone is having delusions of Grandeur it is you. WHM's had just fine MP management, at least the good ones. WHM had great MP management mostly because at the time Regen was very potent. Unlike todays game they were the primary healing spells cast.

As for PLD not being useful, are you crazy? it was the most practical tank on the majority of mobs, especially after the updates it got to put it above NIN. In both cases it wasn't about healing magic it was about uptime of shadows (haste slow and paralyze) and statically regenerating the players health (regens) allowing the PLD to do big heals on itself for additional CE.

(this is why RDM was the best overall tank until it was nerfed.)

WHM was and always has been the best endagame healer. RDM was brought to supply haste/refresh/slow/paralyze/dia. That is it. Anything a RDM did after that was determined by the RDM's opinion on what the group needed most. Endgame always had WHM's because they were the best healers (Cure V and Regens).

And endgame was done many ways, from the full group (tank party/dd party/mage party) to the zerg (DRK with Kraken/BRD/BRD/COR/RDM/WHM) to mana burn (BLM BRD COR RDM)

This is what endgame consisted of, and the only case that didn't include WHM as the healer was Manaburn mostly because players would log hate.

As I said clearly you have not done much endgame, WHM was the king of healing and every endgame group had one. With the exception of nyzul (until /SCH) which was basically a roaming exp party except on boss floors, that contained bosses that were susceptible to enfeebles allowing a RDM to be able to heal them successfully.

Your memory is either failing, or you are talking out your ass. RDM was never a replacement for a WHM in serious endgame.

Seriha

01-23-2012, 01:48 PM

Funny, I seem to recall being stuck healing 4-5 DD parties in Dynamis. The alternatives were playing Refresh monkey to BLMs (who were better at the crowd control game with 2 sleepgas) or tossing out refreshes to the PLD tanks while keeping an eye on our puller. This didn't differ much when fighting kings or doing Einherjar when it eventually came out. Unless there's some super secret serious endgame out there that I didn't know about.

Personally, I have no doubts WHM was the better healer, especially when it came to recovering from AoEs. That didn't stop people from having tunnel vision and thinking a job who does one thing elsewhere (like maintain a merit party) can do the same everywhere else. In some respects, WHM was just overkill for certain events.

Enfeebling then and now isn't a particularly involving aspect to deter people from making us healers, either. With most encounters being 1 vs Many, it's land what we can then most likely do the pink mage bit in between reapplications. It's partly why I've wanted to see a lot of our debuffs get the Step treatment and have levels applied to their potency. Land a near 40% Slow II? That's it until it wears. But what if you or other people can cast other slows on top, adding x% per land in a meaningful number with a bit more duration? Maybe then we'd be getting closer to enfeebling being a full-time gig, but we arguably need more enfeebles than what we have now, and not just tier-ups.

Mageoholic

01-23-2012, 02:02 PM

and what else were you expected to do in dynamis while you were healing. Oh yes thats right sleeping mobs, silencing pets, silencing mobs, slowing mobs, paralyzing mobs, diaing mobs, and giving haste and/or refresh out. Then you healed, because if dynamis was being done right the only ones taking damage were the tanks. Which your WHM's were taking care of.

WHM's have always been the primary healers
BLM's have always been the primary nukers
WAR's have always been the primary melee
RDM had always been the primary support mage.

In every event it was enfeeble and buff first. That was the job, and why it was invited. What came after was what was deemed important, and that secondary task covered healing, nuking and melee.

I know you love hand outs, but RDM doesn't need secondary skills changed, it needs its main skills back. That is the only reason RDM was ever useful in endgame, if RDM couldn't bring better enfeebles and stackable buffs it wouldn't have had a spot, and that is the fucking cold hard truth.

Support first, everything else second, that is the job, and SE is restricting our support abilities heavily, for no apparent reason.

Which brings us back to the OP.

What is the deal SE?, What are your plans with RDM? Are we going to be a Support Mage? or are we destined to be mediocre in everything and wander RoZ/CoP till the end of time soloing irrelevant content?

ManaKing

01-23-2012, 06:22 PM

With the jobs WHM, BLM, BRD, and COR in the game, not to mention SCH, I really don't see how you can believe that RDM can be anything like you are describing. I laugh at your vision of RDM having been the 'primary support mage' because that has no future.

With amount that SE tip toes around each of those job's identity/boundaries, I really don't see how you believe that RDM will subsist, much less flourish in the current environment. You're really being naive if you think that SE will fix enfeebling to a point that RDM will become viable in a party again. The reason we are all uppity about getting additional buffs, is because that is what it would take for us to be anything in a party, much less something as ridiculous as the 'primary support mage'. So because we have to use MP and can easily get eclipsed by jobs that don't have to even worry about MP, we are supposed to be able to feel good about a title as unfulfilled as 'primary support mage'?

What about a support that actually stacks up against the other supports in the game? That's what I would be shooting for, not retainer of the garbage heap or guy that gets invited when they are just trying to fill spots. I understand you are trying to do good for the job, but your aim is incredibly low and will result in more mediocrity if it is allowed to persist. Please broaden your scope and realize the pile of shit you are already forced to stand in while all the other jobs are designed to actually be themselves and are rewarded for it.

Mageoholic

01-24-2012, 03:33 AM

Why does it have to stack up against other support, When it stacks with it?

The fact is RDM has no role currently, and the only viable option is to enhance our buffing and debuffing. No one is going to invite a RDM because it can nuke/heal/melee if they wanted to invite us for that we would have a spot in a party. Instead they bring WHM's WAR's and BLM's.

The skill set of RDM dictates that the only viable position we can have in a group is as a support mage, using our secondary skills to fill in the weak spots in a party while we provide said support. Until our buffs and debuffs are actually useful and clearly better than WHM, BLM or /RDM, /WHM, there isn't a spot for RDM.

It is well and good to ask for new things and other tricks, but when the foundation of the job is rotten you don't throw more shit on top hoping it will magically get fixed. Until the foundation of the job is fixed then nothing added on top will take.

SE needs to determine what they want RDM to do. What role it is supposed to provide to a group, and quite honestly the only one that makes any sense with the current job distribution is buffing and debuffing.

ManaKing

01-24-2012, 01:32 PM

RDM doesn't stack with other supports, currently, thus your question is invalid. I'm not going to discuss what ifs for a future that may or may not happen. You are making a large amount of assumptions.

Nothing about our current skill set dictates that the only viable position we can have in a group is as a support mage. That is something you came up with based off your personal vision of the job and what it once was. Welcome to 2012. SE does what it wants with your job and you get to guess what they are thinking because they don't tell you and they don't make a lot of sense. The only thing RDM is actually good at doing, currently (ie In the actual game), is take hits to the face. We could be good at enfeebling if SE had allowed us to be, but they did not, so please don't reference enfeebling as an asset we currently have, because we don't actually have it.

If you want to petition for RDM to become a support mage, then do it. But don't assuming SE is going that way, because we really don't know anymore. Please look at where RDM is actually at right now and not preconceived notions of yesterday or other more dubious sources such as your personal opinions of it's future. After you have taken a good hard look, then realize what you, personally, want for RDM. Because it currently is full of holes and ambiguity that need to be filled.

SE could decide that RDM is at the end of its spell list and that they don't care how poorly the job is functioning right now. It has 19 other jobs that actually work and have their own job identity. It probably can afford to slack on RDM because there are so many jobs that have already taken all of it's territory. Please don't assuming RDM will be good, just because you want it to be, because currently it is not.

Mageoholic

01-24-2012, 04:42 PM

Oh I am sorry.

Dia III - ATK + stacks with Minuet, stacks with Chaos, stacks with Box Step
Bio III - DEF + stacks with Minne, stacks with Titan Favor
Haste - ATK Speed + Stacks with March, stacks with Blitzers, stacks with Haste Samba
Refresh - MP recovery+ Stacks with Ballad, stacks with Evokers, Stacks with Aspir Samba, Stacks with Diablo Favor
Gravity - ACC + Stacks with Madrigal, Stacks with Hunters, Stacks with Stutter
Blind - EVA + Stacks with Mambo, Stacks with Ninjas, stacks with Garudas Favor

Temper DA+, Stacks with Fighters, Stacks with Ifrits Aura
Gain Stat+, Stacks with BRD songs

Seems to me that a lot of our spells stack with other jobs who cast similar spells. They do not stack with some spells,

Example, Blind II and Kurayami NI. (SE needs to change this 5/5 merit spell should be better than a lvl 44 scroll spell)

This is why SE needs to make enfeebling and enhancing skill determine the potency of all of our spells, it will automatically vault RDM to the top support MAGE, thus giving us a reason to be invited.

Kristal

01-24-2012, 06:03 PM

Example, Blind II and Kurayami NI. (SE needs to change this 5/5 merit spell should be better than a lvl 44 scroll spell)

Even a 1/5 meritted spell should be better then a lvl 44 spell...

I can only hope "Job Adjustments: Red Mage" will bring some improvement to RDM G2 merits... being the weaponskill merit group prototype testbed sucks to high heavens.

ManaKing

01-24-2012, 07:14 PM

See how your spells that are in italics are spells that they have added post 75. That is SE's Agenda. See how none of those can be given to others, and are thus useless unless you are advocating an extremely aggressive Pro-Melee Stance, which I am not. See how Gain doesn't Stack with Boost and you can't give Gain to others. That's what we are talking about because that is what is being added. They have added no insight to possible additional functionality for those spells. That is all in your head and is not presently in the game.

Sorry you're still not seeing that POST 75 RDM has problems which SE has no discernible interest in remedying. Drawing on resources that are PRE 75 and are eclipsed by other support jobs, does not add any validity to your stance. You are being unrealistic. Sorry you want to single target buff an entire party with multiple buffs. That sounds boring as hell and as undesirable to a party as it does to the poor RDM foolish enough to think that they are anything compared to a BRD or COR. Why would a party want buffs applied slowly when they could just be AOEd by better jobs? Your vision of a support mage is BROADLY outclassed by other supports. Come up with something substantial or expect to be harshly opposed by RDMs that have a vested interest in making it better than it is right now. What you are advocating is rubbish and that is why I'm being harsh with you. Please don't take this too personally because I'm not trying to upset you, but you are stepping on my job with buffs that would doom it to mediocrity.

Do Enspells and Sambas Stack? Do even Bio and Dia Stack? No
Does Blind and NIN blind stack? No
Does Gravity stick to be able to stack? No

Is Haste Unique to RDM? No
Is BRD and COR more efficient at refreshing an entire party? Yes
Can COR/RDM duplicate Dia and Bio 3? Yes

Where are all these unique and stack-able spells that get RDM a party spot? Nowhere.

Start with where RDM is actually at right now and work from there. You are jumping ahead on assumptions. RDM is in a horrible spot right now because it doesn't make an impact in party play. That is what needs to be fixed. Bringing up how bad we are at enfeebling and enhancing as a reference for how amazing we will suddenly become as a support mage is seriously misguided.

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 01:27 AM

Jumping ahead on assumptions everything in that list is something we have that can be cast on a mob or party member with the exception of the two in Italics. Gravity is unique because it just doesn't work at all.

These are all base spells we have learned that provide a buff to the group, all of these spells stack with one or more other support jobs spells. Do you even know how this game works?

So Ill ask you again why do we have to stack up to other support jobs, when our abilities stack with them.

Do Enspells and Sambas Stack? Do even Bio and Dia Stack? No
Does Blind and NIN blind stack? No
Does Gravity stick to be able to stack? No

Enspells do not stack, but thankfully we have enspell II's which apply to only a first hit, allowing RDM to gain the benefit of a Samba in the off hand or on a Multi hit.

Blind does stack however with Mambo, Ninjas Roll, Garuda's Davor which is a far cry from not stacking with anything

Should Gravity be able to land it stacks with Quickstep, Madrigal, Hunter's Roll.

RDM doesn't stack with other supports, currently, thus your question is invalid.

So you either need to fix your blatant falsehood, or accept the fact you are wrong. There are some jobs we don't stack with, most of them however we do stack with. It is not an issue of our spells stacking, it is an issue of RDM being the best job to cast those spells. Currently it has Refresh II, Dia III, Bio III. This needs to change.

(cor can make Bio 3 and Dia 3 20% debuffs which is about 23% DEF/ATK+ which is actually 6% higher than they are alone, or XXX II + Shot.)

Greatguardian

01-25-2012, 03:32 AM

Trying too hard. You're taking too many posters on these boards seriously, RDD. Haste is a bad example because any WHM or BRD can cover that. Bio and Blind are bad examples because they're epic-tier useless.

Temper would be nice. A crit rate+ spell with an identical curve to Temper would be nice. Make them single target (Any, not Self) and Accessionable. Do that and I'll bring Red Mages to things.

Mageoholic

01-25-2012, 03:59 AM

Blind is useful with an evasion tank like NIN, the issue is that NIN can apply Blind itself for the same effect as our merit spell @ 5/5. Even just unlocking it is not as good as Kuryami, a level 44 scroll spell that can be purchased on the AH for practically nothing.

I agree we need Temper to be party castable (not AoE I do not believe RDM should have AoE spells, the casting time "lost" is just not that big of an impact in the overall scheme of things). A crit + spell would be nice as well, which we kind of get in the form of Gain DEX should it be castable on party members.

Having our spells work with accession is also important, all of our spells should work with it. This may subjob lock us for most events, but SCH is a very fluid backline job that allows us to boost effect of our secondary skill sets (nuking and healing). The issue arises with limiting our secondary skill set of melee by locking us into /SCH. I think RDM should have its own ability like BLU that allows for AoEing of spells, on a similar timer. So you have to choose which spell you would want to AoE, and understand that it won't always be up, but every 10 minutes you can AoE haste or Temper, or Refresh.

As for haste being a bad example, if our enhancing skill was able to boost the potency on this spell then WHM or /RDM, /WHM would have an inferior haste spell by comparison. BRD has scaling haste and a BRD with lots of Skill will have a higher cap then one that has no Skill. If a RDM could boost haste to say 20% it would be an automatic invite simply based on that and that alone.

Greatguardian

01-25-2012, 06:34 AM

There is nothing worth evasion tanking where NIN, THF, and DNC are not already easily able to floor enemy accuracy without a blind spell. Anything where blind would matter is too strong to evasion tank. It's a matter of context.

As for Haste, the fact of the matter is simply that it does not scale with Enhancing skill. Even if it did, that would only really cause trouble. As long as White Mage is able to reach the cap, it would be irrelevant. If White Mage became unable to reach the cap, it would simply put more strain on the bard. For example, I roll with a Gjallar/Daurab bard in my party almost every time I do Voidwatch. As long as I hit the magic haste cap, I don't really care where the buffs are coming from (and frankly, no one cares what low-tier groups use because they don't really care about "optimizing jobs" as is)

Red Mage really just needs new spells that it can cast on others. A PDT-20% spell that overwrites an MDT-20% spell and vice versa would be a nice gimmick. Temper, crit rate, maybe an Acc+ spell. Evasion down and Crit evasion down as spells would be nice, but this would require NMs to not be immune to everything.

Inb4 Red Mages freak out about potentially awesome spells because "oh noes cyclez are so tedious". This is what Accession and AF3+2 are for.

cidbahamut

01-25-2012, 06:58 AM

Inb4 Red Mages freak out about potentially awesome spells because "oh noes cyclez are so tedious". This is what Accession and AF3+2 are for.

I dunno GG. Cycles being tedious is a valid complaint. The problem we tend to have is that that's a completely different argument, but the community is incapable of separating it from the prospect of new buffs we can cast on others.

More on-topic, I like the idea of mutually exclusive MDT and PDT buffs on paper, but in practice I see it just covering for players who don't maintain proper PDT/MDT sets. I know there are some jobs that can't reach the cap, but for the ones that can it ends up being redundant unless I suppose you could maintain multiple PDT/MDT sets but it seems unlikely to happen terribly often even among the better players. It's a cool idea, and I'd love to see Red Mage become even more of a Brick Wall Mage, but my gut tells me it would have some kinks to hammer out.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-25-2012, 07:09 AM

ManaKing

01-25-2012, 04:17 PM

Daniel_Hatcher

01-25-2012, 06:20 PM

They already said no to further AOEing for RDM. You're wasting your time on trying unless you want to specifically attack SE with that agenda in mind. Crit Buffs would be pretty sweet. There is no real comparison to how valuable that would be on top of Gain-Dex for some jobs....except we would have to be able to cast those spells on other party members.....which SE is already saying no to.

Not that I don't think that these are good ideas, but they have already said no to these types of things. Get ready for an uphill battle.

They said no to AoE, single target isn't AoE, and either way if these come for just RDM at least it's more to the manifesto.

If SE dislike the Enhancing party side of RDM then they need to go in the direction they want, if they want RDM to enfeeble the enemy to help the party they need to fix that. If they want to do that while making the RDM a demi-god then buffs like this are required.

It's going to take more than just saying in a manifesto to change what RDM currently is (useless) and to change it from it's former role (Refresh and Haste monkey.)

cidbahamut

01-25-2012, 10:52 PM

tyrantsyn

01-26-2012, 12:50 AM

16 days , 154 post, still no Dev response.

ManaKing

01-26-2012, 06:25 AM

SE saying "no" to something doesn't give them a free pass to continue making poor design choices. If SE is wrong for saying "no" to something then they should get called out on it. SE said "no" to changing the Voidwatch loot system but that doesn't change the fact that it is a terrible decision and it certainly hasn't stopped the playerbase from calling SE out on their BS. Why should a discussion of Red Mage be any different?

Point is: discuss what Red Mage could benefit from, not what it could benefit from within the constrains of terrible design choices SE is trying to impose.

Funny, only a handful of us are calling out SE for making RDM trash and the rest of the forum is quietly talking about what ifs and going on rants about their personal visions that have nothing to do with what SE has dictated. You aren't addressing the actual problem when you do that. The problem is SE and you not speaking up about it and making clear that you aren't happy about the current state of RDM.

You should pretty much end every post with, 'SE fix RDM, you aren't doing your job.' You shouldn't have a positive, hopeful attitude about the time schedule in which they are adjusting RDM. You should be pissed that we are STILL waiting around for anything that looks like what they promised in their manifesto. You shouldn't be discussing what wonderful new things you'd like for RDM. You should be attempting to hold SE accountable for all the BS they posted about RDM and haven't done anything about even though they have plenty of time to spend on other jobs on tweaks.

I have stopped posting what ifs because SE clearly has a plan for RDM and it looks very, very shallow. They could surprise us with an amazing update for RDM and some beautifully reworked Merits. Or they could just sweep us under the rug. *This just in* SE STILL hasn't shared any information on what they are planning so we can't give feedback.

The state of RDM is complete crap. Anyone that actually plays RDM knows this. Why haven't the devs done anything for this job to remedy it?

Greatguardian

01-26-2012, 06:39 AM

To be fair, it's less complete and utter shit than PUP, SCH, and DRG were.

They seem to be taking the bottom of the barrel, scraping it around a bit, and then working jobs up one by one.

Except Summoner because, seriously, no one gives a shit about those guys. It can stay at the bottom.

Neisan_Quetz

01-26-2012, 07:40 AM

Summoner has Earthen Armor, Job fixed.

Psxpert2011

01-26-2012, 08:46 AM

Mageoholic

01-26-2012, 01:51 PM

Funny, only a handful of us are calling out SE for making RDM trash and the rest of the forum is quietly talking about what ifs and going on rants about their personal visions that have nothing to do with what SE has dictated.

LOL what? RDM is hardly trash, is it in a bad spot, sure but that doesn't make it trash, it is still a decent support job, the only issue is that some jobs can replace it for the most part by using RDM's abilities in subjob form. This is only compounded by the fact enfeebling magic is more or less non existant.

It hardly make the job trash though, it is still a solid choice to bring as a secondary healer, or nuker or even as a melee, is it first choice no, but it shouldn't be first choice in those things.

But considering you have no idea how the job functions with others (your lack of understanding how our buffs and debuffs stack with other jobs) or how to gear for it (assumed because you claim haste is a wasted slot), I think maybe you are just a trash player, of course if you don't know how to play the job it will be trash.

Here is an idea, go level SAM, anyone with half a brain can gear and play that job. Or go and read up on how to play RDM, what it provides, and how it affects the group. Then read up on how to gear the job for those specific instances.

A job that can drop a 1.5K nuke, then gear swap into a 600+ heal, then gear swap into a 2K+ WS, while at the same time increasing party damage, reducing party damage, increasing healing potential. Is hardly a trash job, a little lost for direction, but a long shot from trash. It is still one of the best jobs in the game, even if it sees limited invites (this is due to enfeebling being nearly useless, and the fact the only buff RDM main offers post subjob is refresh II).

ManaKing

01-26-2012, 03:39 PM

LOL what? RDM is hardly trash, is it in a bad spot, sure but that doesn't make it trash, it is still a decent support job, the only issue is that some jobs can replace it for the most part by using RDM's abilities in subjob form. This is only compounded by the fact enfeebling magic is more or less non existant.

It hardly make the job trash though, it is still a solid choice to bring as a secondary healer, or nuker or even as a melee, is it first choice no, but it shouldn't be first choice in those things.

But considering you have no idea how the job functions with others (your lack of understanding how our buffs and debuffs stack with other jobs) or how to gear for it (assumed because you claim haste is a wasted slot), I think maybe you are just a trash player, of course if you don't know how to play the job it will be trash.

Here is an idea, go level SAM, anyone with half a brain can gear and play that job. Or go and read up on how to play RDM, what it provides, and how it affects the group. Then read up on how to gear the job for those specific instances.

A job that can drop a 1.5K nuke, then gear swap into a 600+ heal, then gear swap into a 2K+ WS, while at the same time increasing party damage, reducing party damage, increasing healing potential. Is hardly a trash job, a little lost for direction, but a long shot from trash. It is still one of the best jobs in the game, even if it sees limited invites (this is due to enfeebling being nearly useless, and the fact the only buff RDM main offers post subjob is refresh II).

Well shit. I'll bite. You want to start personal attacks, we can go that way. Misinterpret my posts all you want. I still play this jobs and know what it is good for. NOT GETTING PARTY INVITES TO CURRENT EVENTS. You can get invited, but no one looks for a RDM because they aren't the best at anything. I made my point in bold just in case you are too stupid to realize what RDM needs fixed. I won't even waste your time on giving you a full wall of text to work though. If you missed the bold then don't even bother to post because that is what this is all about.

Mageoholic

01-26-2012, 04:08 PM

Hey I am just pointing out the fallacy in your logic, and supporting it with evidence of your misunderstanding. If you think the job is trash that is your opinion and you are titled to it.

As for the bold.

Then your server is shit, or you have a bad reputation as a RDM. If I flag up on RDM I will get an invite, because RDM still provides a lot of functionality, the issue is not really with the job, the issue is with the limitations imposed on it (enfeebling restrictions, buff restrictions) and the fact that some jobs can provide the same services as RDM + their own services. Not meaning those jobs are better at doing it then RDM, but that they can get a lot of the tricks a RDM gets without actually being RDM.

For example, BRD/RDM, it is not as good as RDM overall, it is tied to RDM, RDM has free sub job opportunity, BRD could sub WHM but losses convert and this MP. RDM can /WHM and keep all of its tools.

The issue is that BRD can get all of RDM's sub 50 buffs and abilities, where as RDM can get 25% of a BRD's capability as /BRD (half skill + 1 song only).

That is the issue with RDM. It still gets invited to a lot of content, maybe not abyssea but abyssea is a joke anyway, level BLM and gear your RDM (thats how I did it). Now my RDM is ready for VW, Dynamis, Nyzul, Salvage, Einherjahr all things that RDM sees invites to, on a regular basis.

tyrantsyn

01-27-2012, 12:31 AM

RDM as a job function well, but it's potential isn't being met. The job feel's like a selfish child who refuse's to learn anything that'll help other's. And it's strongest skill is mired in end game utility. Only given us 1 or maybe 2 option on added something to the fight with it feeling only mildly useful. Melee, which is something were suppose to have a hand in "if even a little" has always been a sore spot. And yet it's one of the largest thread's on the RDM forums.

Mage you seem to think of RDM a little like me, it works but it's not reaching it'd potential.

Mana you seem genuinely dis~ hearten by that lack of attention RDM has gotten. And I'm sure most of us would agree with you. Including myself.

It's a shame you 2 can't find any common ground. You guy's both seem to know what your talking about from your own experience's.

Mageoholic

01-27-2012, 01:48 AM

Mage you seem to think of RDM a little like me, it works but it's not reaching it'd potential.

I think it has for the most part pretty good balance in its potential, it is a decent healer a decent nuker a decent melee, it is a good enfeebler and a good buffer. The issue I have with RDM is the same one that I had with healing magic in general. It may not even just be an issue with RDM, really WHM and BLM are also victims of current game limitations.

The fact the job as a support job allows a job (lets say BRD) to buff and debuff to the same potential as a RDM (or even WHM, BLM) is disturbing. It is wrong, and it should be addressed (the same way that Cure spells are all kinds of borked comparing main to sub ability).

SE is addressing that concern by adjusting healing caps based on healing magic skill (which allows for disparity between main and sub job Curing spells).

This should be carried over to Enfeebling, Enhancing, and Elemental skills as well. Why can a BRD sub RDM or WHM, cast a 600 cure 4, cast a 15% haste, and with all the MACC out there land slow/para/dispel/blind. (Ive been able to land slow and para more often the not /RDM as BRD.) It is wrong. A subjob should allow the main job to cast its spells at half power, just like what happens with BRD when you sub it. Except BRD songs only function at like 25% skill as a sub job, we only have 50% of the singing skill when it is a sub job, since we can not use an instrument.

This isn't just a RDM issue, it affects all jobs with native enfeebling, enhancing skill (i include elemental because if you are going to do it to one set of magic skills you may as well do it to them all.)

BRD NIN BLU SMN all of their spells potency, and MACC are heavily restricted as sub jobs, WHM RDM (somewhat BLM) spells are more or less going off at par when set as subjobs. This isn't right.

It's a shame you 2 can't find any common ground. You guy's both seem to know what your talking about from your own experience's.

I know you are trying to be nice, but I disagree, this is someone who doesn't know how the jobs spells work, and how those spells work with other jobs, and claims the job is trash because their own misunderstanding yet has an opinion on everything as if they do. Nothing against the guy/girl but he/she should go read up on RDM and how it works, then come back and offer constructive feed back. Saying the job is trash waaah waaah waaah, makes it hard to discuss anything.

Especially when they throw their hands over their ears (eyes technically I guess) and scream but this, but that, but this, but that. Sorry but I provided a list of our spells that provide buffs akin to many jobs that stack with those jobs, it got picked apart with more misinformation. Hard to be civil with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about, yet tries to act like they do.

ManaKing

01-27-2012, 03:12 PM

I understand he wants nice things for RDM, but he is delusional about how being a support mage is going to do dick for RDM. Enfeebling doesn't really work because of how mobs are being designed, enhancing for RDM is a joke, and this guy thinks that we are magically going to have a spot because he says so. He thinks I'm the one in denial, but he clearly isn't understanding the point and he feels the need to personally defend himself because he turned this into a pissing contest. Welcome to the RDM forums. People mean to do well and go primal on each other. I'm not even mad at him, but I'm already tired of walls of text that don't apply to how current NMs are being designed or how the game is being played. I'm not saying I'm being the nicest person at this point but I really don't need him making ASSumptions about what I post after being here for a week and not bothering to read any of the older threads. I really shouldn't have to cater to him because he really isn't any more or less important than any other person on these forums, myself included, and all he posts is fluff. I just think it is funny that he is schooling me on RDM when he doesn't even understand where the job is at right now and the actual issues that it has.

The bottom line is you can think RDM isn't living up to it's potential and that is fine. I know it doesn't have a place in an actual Alliance that could be better filled with another job because everything it used to support is outdated. Next update, double Alliances for Legion. Maybe the game format will better suit RDM by making it into some kind of refresh-btich because they won't add atmas or atmacite, but they seem to really like those. OR they could just keep making RDM not particularly significant except for healing and DPS, because that is what RDM is right now. Do you have an Almace, do you have a decent nuking set, do you have good Cure Potency? If the answer is no, then you are useless because all of your other skills are useless...except Dia 3, because that actually does something and does stack in a way that makes a difference. Should this be how it is? NO. BUT it is how it is currently.

Mageoholic

01-27-2012, 06:16 PM

ManaKing

01-27-2012, 09:00 PM

Still doesn't mean we are going to get any unique function that can't be easily done by any other jobs. Enfeebling itself as a magic school has degraded because NMs no longer have a long TP/Auto attack phase like they used to. Slow, Blind, and Paralyze have all started to fall by the wayside. Just making Enfeebles stick or even make them have decent potency doesn't stop most NMs from TPing when they feel like it and hitting any member of your alliance because their accuracy is/and always will be capped. It's a multitude of problems that are wrong with Enfeebling, not just 1 or 2. If they want to adjust Enfeebling to actually do something in the future, then sure, we can swing some kind of debuffer job. But if we just get back what we used to have, no future in that. It's already outdated and that's the biggest issue. We haven't had real work done on our job but NMs have had plenty of work done on them, so we don't fit the current game model.

You want to play a RDM like it is 'supposed' to be played, go to dynamis. They still make sense there. But stacked up to aby NMs or VW NMs, RDMs are IMHO Trash.

Enhancing is a lesser problem that could be fixed by doing really basic non-inventive buffs. Update some formulas. Change the select-able targets for gain spells and temper and let us appreciate the overly lack luster set bonus that is our AF3.

We aren't in contention about how easy buffing would be to fix, but I really am very serious about what a CF Enfeebling would be to actually give us a fair shake at this game again. I started playing RDM at NA release because it offered debuffs and enspells. While the state of Enspells is pretty sorry as well, it's nothing compared to how wrong Enfeebling is currently.

Enfeebling is our ONLY A rank skill. It is what we should be specialized in and sought out for. It takes 2 RDMs to heal as well as a WHM. It takes 2 RDM to nuke as well as a BLM. It used to take a WHM and a BLM to cover the enfeebling ground as a RDM, but I hope we all know that /RDM on either of those jobs will do the trick as well as a RDM themselves. We aren't disagreeing on how wrong that is, but you just have to understand how much SE would have to push RDM past the other jobs' ability to enfeeble to make it fair. We aren't just talking about fixing the old spells, I'm talking about getting a small library of new enfeebles to counter the BS that is getting created for us to fight against.

All this talk about Balance is getting really old because I still see a couple completely unBalanced jobs that are staring me in the face and all that seems to get attention is the jobs that are already well off or have already been buffed recently. RDM needs more than just work on Enfeebling, Enhancing, and 2nd hand healing adjustments, but we haven't even gotten those yet. This waiting game was old @ 90. I don't really know why SE even included a RDM forum here because they haven't even used this platform to disseminate information.

Daniel_Hatcher

01-27-2012, 09:46 PM

the overly lack luster set bonus that is our AF3.

Wow!!! /sigh

cidbahamut

01-27-2012, 11:17 PM

Just hang up your chapeau and go play a different job already. Jesus...

tyrantsyn

01-28-2012, 01:45 AM

Enhancing is a lesser problem that could be fixed by doing really basic non-inventive buffs. Update some formulas. Change the select-able targets for gain spells and temper and let us appreciate the overly lack luster set bonus that is our AF3.
.

Yeah, I agree if the gain line spell's and Temper were single target spell's that would probably make a lot of the RDM community happy. Tho I wouldn't go so far as to call our emp +2 set bonus lack luster. I would like to see some more bonus gear added to it. Piece's that added to our enhancing magic and the bonus at the same time would be great.

Mageoholic

01-28-2012, 01:52 AM

appreciate the overly lack luster set bonus that is our AF3.

What? You do know AF3 is probably one of the best set bonuses going ya? It combined with fast cast is about a 40% reduction in time spent casting from where we were at the 75 cap.

It used to be a huge issue that we spent a third of our time casting buffs and debuffs, we now can spend 1/5 of our time buffing and debuffing. That is 1 minute every 5 "doing our job" leaving us 4 minutes to do whatever the hell else we deem appropriate. (it used to be about 1min for every 3minutes).

It is a huge buff, especially for melee, but also for nuking and healing.

I refer you back to a post I made yesterday.

Nothing against the guy/girl but he/she should go read up on RDM and how it works, then come back and offer constructive feed back. Saying the job is trash waaah waaah waaah, makes it hard to discuss anything.

The job is fine the system is broken. If Enfeebling skill played a larger part in spells like say potency, a RDM would be the best at it, and WHM and BLM wouldn't need to cast their versions. If Enfeebling worked on mobs RDM would be sought after. If Temper and Gain spells were made into castable buffs it would allow for flexibility in stat increase management and provide RDM with another buff, that already exists in this game.

Thats it, that is all SE needs to do. Allow for disparity amongst jobs that share the same spells through skill based potency, and allow RDM to cast all of their enhancements on party members. Done. move on to the next problem.

ManaKing

01-28-2012, 12:45 PM

Wow it sure is cool they wasted our set bonus on something that they could have just coded in. Longer Haste, Refresh, and Phallanx.....wow what an upgrade. Good thing they didn't match the same level of lovely they handed out to everyone else. Occasionally Deals Double Damage for 1/2 the jobs in the game, but for RDM no increase in potency at all. How about those AUG on +2 Relics? How is all that extra duration working out there?

Sorry you all just still don't get how big RDMs problems actually are. They threw an inferior set bonus at us because they know hungry RDMs will eat up anything they shove down their throat. Don't have any self respect and certainly don't demand to be taken seriously. Just accept a set bonus that says, most RDMs are too stupid or lazy to cycle properly and the devs are too lazy to actually address RDMs issues.

Even making Enfeebles stick and work isn't going to cover the ground necessary to make RDM an actual Enfeebling specialist. The NMs they are making don't care about the debuffs we could cast on them because they really don't have to worry about accuracy or attack speed since they have capped accuracy and high amounts of regain or situation moves that don't require TP. NMs don't auto attack party members down, they TP and nuke them to death if they are fed too much TP too quickly. Paralyze works great when it works, but it really doesn't work anymore.

Mageoholic

01-28-2012, 01:27 PM

Yes I know you agree with everything I have said, you don't need to keep telling me that you do. Enfeebling and Enhancing are broken and fixing them is a priority. Everything you just ranted about was addressed in the thread I titled practical solutions to RDM issues. (granted they also will help other jobs who are experiencing the same issues.) I appreciate the support but you don't need to tell me again and again that I am spot on.

Neisan_Quetz

01-28-2012, 01:56 PM

I like how you bring up the DD job empyrean set bonuses, when they're all considered to be fairly lackluster and there is little point in using the full set.

Blm and Rdm actually benefit from full set bonus, almost every other job breaks it because the bonus is subpar to what you can get elsewhere.

ManaKing

01-28-2012, 02:20 PM

Economizer

01-28-2012, 03:08 PM

Enfeebling sucking doesn't make the RDM AF3 bonus suck. It is a great bonus and one of the few things other jobs can be majorly jealous of. In fact, I think it is better to not have enfeebling as the bonus the set provides, because you would have to swap to stuff like AF2+2 for maximum benefit on certain things, or gear with better MND, INT, or Magic Accuracy depending on the situation.

There are things in this thread I've agreed with and not agreed with, but honestly, it mostly comes down to enfeebling, which I think would be fixed with some simple work.

Make Enfeebling Magic boost the potency adjustment of enfeebles as well as accuracy.
STAT + (Enfeebling Magic / 5), which is about what Healing Magic does, would be ideal, however STAT + (Enfeebling Magic / 10) could also work. This would make Enfeebling Magic gear better and Red Mage's A+ more meaningful.
Remove monster immunities to enfeebles whenever possible.
For example, Gravity should stick on everything, even if the movement speed decrease does not.
Allow Red Mages to get all the merit spells automatically, merits only increase the potency.
Too many of Red Mage's merit spells are only an upgrade with full merits. Red Mages currently would be able to talk to one of the artifact quest NPCs to get the spells automatically at 75, much like how SCH gets their two hours spells.
Dia III would have a two minute duration and 15% defense down without merits. Each Merit would increase the defense down effect by 1%, the duration by 12 seconds, and the DoT would be increased.
Bio III would have a two minute duration and 15% attack down without merits. Each Merit would increase the attack down effect by 1%, the duration by 12 seconds, and the DoT would be increased at the same rate as now.
Slow II and Paralyze II would have the merits function the same, however the merit modifier would be zero without any merits.
Phalanx II would be equal to Phalanx without merits (albeit castable on others), but merits would increase duration and effect as they do now.

As an added bonus, it would be nice if Red Mage got Plague (aka Virus), especially since MNK/PUP can get it on a WS, Samurai can inflict it, and BLU has forms of it. The spell is already in the game (/recast Virus) so it wouldn't add to magic limitations to get it.

Mageoholic

01-28-2012, 04:29 PM

Id like the group 2 merits to be dropped as well. In their place Id like to see 2 traits, and 2 JA's.

Enfeebling Magic. (all spells) enhances accuracy and potency
3% per level for a maximum of 15% (ie. Dia III would apply 2.25% more -DEF which is about a 20% increase to ATK)

Enhancing Magic. (all spells) enhance potency and duration
3% per level for a maximum of 15% (ie. Haste would apply 2.25% more haste and gain 27 seconds of duration)

Sabateur. Recast Reduced
-30's per merit for a total of 2:30 reduced

Composure. Increases the Attack of the user, at the cost of spell casting speed (and recast).
3% ATK/-2% FC for a total of 15% ATK and -10% fast cast (-5% recast).

This combined with allowing our spells to work is a much better group 2, and it forces players to decide how they want to play. The most important thing is everyone of these skills can effect everything we do. Smaller casting loads is more melee/nuking/healing time. 15% ATK helps RDM in the WS department, Sab helps RDM in the enfeebling department.

(I left anything for nuking and healing as both are buffed indirectly by reducing the buffing/debuffing casting load and MP costs due to spells lasting longer. I felt that because 3/4 focus on durations of casting that it was a large enough buff in its own right.)

tyrantsyn

01-29-2012, 12:52 AM

Sorry you all just still don't get how big RDMs problems actually are.

Lol dam Mana, why don't you go have a snicker's or a York peppermint patty and relax and think before you post something like this. This is beyond the stupidest thing I've ever seen posted around here.

Mageoholic

01-29-2012, 01:36 AM

so now you see why it is impossible to compromise. A guy/girl who doesn't know most of our spells stack with other support telling the rest of us we don't know what wrong with RDM....everytime he/she posts.

tyrantsyn

01-29-2012, 03:09 AM

The key word being "all" kind of generalize the comment to everyone reading. And was just a poor choice in word's.

saevel

01-29-2012, 09:21 AM

Potency VS Duration. Potency wins every time. When you are stuck below an acceptable line of performance but you can maintain it all day, that doesn't make it an improvement. Just a distraction.

Mage you don't need to post anymore since you haven't brought up anything new that has been posted before. Have a cookie for not understanding how bad enfeebling is.

This is the entire reason our Emp set bonus is mediocre. It's only useful for Haste / Refresh cycles, it ~would~ be useful on Regens but SE only gives us tier II. Everything else is self cast only and doesn't get the bonus effect. And assuming SE swept in overnight and made our self cast bonus's "other" cast-able, you would be stuck using max potency and only getting the feet / cape bonus / head bonus.

Head: Pimp Hat +1 (FC effect)
Neck: Enf Torque (+7 skill)
Ear1: Augmenting Ear (+3 skill)
Ear2: Loq Ear (FC effect)
Body: Relic +2 (+15 skill)
Hands: Relic (+15 skill)
Ring1: doesn't matter
Ring2: doesn't matter
Back: Emp cape (+6 skill)
Waist: Olympus Sash (+5 skill)
Legs: Potent Pants (+15 skill)
Feet: Emp Feet (+15 skill)
+81 in Skill
+30% Duration Bonus
8/8 Enh Merits = +16 skill

Total: 501 (Capped potency)

Not much room there to swap in body / hands / legs for Emperian set bonus without majorly gimping your buffs.

Mageoholic

01-29-2012, 01:16 PM

Its a good thing that all of our buffs we cast on ourselves are triple in duration with Composure then otherwise it would really suck to sacrifice potency for a duration bonus we get natively. Seriously dude our set bonus rocks, it is one of the better ones out there. You probably just don't like it because it doesn't have melee stats, yet indirectly gives a 40% increase to melee up time.

Even in your "shitty" use of EMP+2, you have a 30% increase to spell durations, drop the head for fast cast and get a 15% increase to durations, for a total of 45% duration increase. You lose 10% fast cast but can get 2% of that back from a Proflix Ring for a net gain of about 3% time gained for doing other shit. This is a 3% increase to nuking damage, a 3% increase to melee damage and a 3% increase to healing output.

And still about a 25% increase from what we had before.

Crimson_Slasher

01-29-2012, 02:16 PM

I still stand by rdm getting boost spells over gain spells, and getting aoe bar spells. It wont make the game rip apart at the seams, and it will cut waste from the overall game. Id be for all buffs, except maybe something insanely powerful, being granted aoe. I mean it isnt like the vast majority of nms these days dont break the old rules of the game, and i think streamlining things is a must. Not to mention, for that new event coming up (the name eludes me) where killspeed is very important, spending time casting 4-6x the spells would waste too much time for me, when i could just simply say "you wanting gain dex, get over here, gain str over there....Okay buffs up, go!". Just my 2 cents, get to cutting waste and streamlining everything! Any and all jobs!

Mageoholic

01-29-2012, 03:13 PM

No but it reduces the usefulness of gain spells being single target. A WAR might benefit from STR where a COR would benefit AGI, a BLM INT a WHM MND. so on and so forth. Our gain spells should be single target, not self target. It is an additional benefit to everyone, players are not going to individually crowd the WHM for Boost XXX and a WHM shouldn't be expected to run around giving Boost XXX to those that want the differing variations.

A single target spell accomplishes this (see BRDs issues and resulting Pianissimo.)

as for bar spells. Fuck em, a WHM can already to them better, and have to merit for them to be great (one of the few good WHM merits). If AoE barspells are that big of a must you are likely coming as /WHM or /SCH anyway, so either provide them then at the same potency as our single target, (aoe WHM) or burn a charge to make RDM native spell AoE (.SCH).

Barspells and Gain spells should be single target castable however.

The only 2 spells that should be AoE'd are haste and refresh, only because SCH can access them now through their primary sub RDM (and Haste /WHM), and AoEing them requires RDM or WHM to /SCH. As Tanaka would say BALANCE!!!.

As for time wasted, even if we gained temper and gain spells, and even bar spells single target, we are looking at still a solid increase to time spent doing secondary actions. As I outlined above.

Crimson_Slasher

01-29-2012, 04:39 PM

I dont totally disagree with you that single target gains have merit, but in all the voidwatch ive been in, on any job, ive always been in fairly limited party, with either DDs, or mages. Im not expected to give boost spells as whm either, but if the nm is procced, i can run forward for 10 seconds to boost str, and the DDs seem to appreciate it. Ive yet to have a Thf, or a Nin, Or a Rng for that matter in any of those go "No dont give me strength, i want agi/dex!" because most of the time they wont get any of those gains/boosts as is, its just a nice bonus i can provide, and if im in the mage party (once i get it) i can pass around INT, as im less likely to be with other whms. If i were on rdm, it would be even easier, because the whm and the melee would likely be separate most the fight (to avoid things like MPK when hate is pulled) so i dont personally see much chance to actually need a particular single buff.

Also hate to nitpick it but your last statement made me scratch my head. I mean, i know what you are tryin to say, but the way its read is "Casting more buffs gives you more time to do other things than cast those buffs!" which doesnt even make sense to me. How can spending more time casting more buffs give me more time to not be buffing? Like i said, i get what you mean, that with our set bonus we wouldnt need to cast them as often, but still needing to cast them more than one time creates wasted time in my book. Theres few (if any!) situation where me casting just a single buff one time to affect most/all of my party would take more time than casting the same buff 3+ times across the whole party.

I see what you're looking at, but i respectfully dissagree, and being able to cast buffs on more people will always create more "downtime" to perform other tasks. Id rather not have both a cluttered enfeebling, and enhancing schedule at the same time for example, so being able to get my buffs down, and focus enfeebling, heals, nukes, and melee as well as reapply debuffs as needed means less micromanagement on an already busy schedule!

And most of all, it wouldnt really hurt the solo functions i do either. If theres nobody else to get casted on, then the spells are as good as single target anyway!

ManaKing

01-29-2012, 06:08 PM

The key word being "all" kind of generalize the comment to everyone reading. And was just a poor choice in word's.

Can't really disagree with you there. I can apologize to you if you want tyrantsyn. I didn't mean to specifically offend you.

I just don't need to hear about how amazing a worthless set bonus is again. It was all things they could have just put on the job and used our set bonus for something useful.

They make tweaks and changes all the time. Is it really so hard to comprehend that just changing Composure to do that naturally wouldn't be unbalanced at all?

'Oh well shield bash and weapon bash are more interesting when you can use them more often. Lets just code that in really quick. Making composure apply to other targets normal? Well where could we possibly find the code to do that so we could do it quick? *Looks at set bonus for AF3*'

saevel

01-30-2012, 12:06 AM

cidbahamut

01-30-2012, 12:16 AM

I just don't need to hear about how amazing a worthless set bonus is again. It was all things they could have just put on the job and used our set bonus for something useful.

They make tweaks and changes all the time. Is it really so hard to comprehend that just changing Composure to do that naturally wouldn't be unbalanced at all?

Of course they should have made Composure extend duration on others naturally. That doesn't change the fact that our set bonus is useful though, that just means SE makes terrible design choices.

Mageoholic

01-30-2012, 12:42 AM

To make RDM functional would require PUP level reworks, and right now SE doesn't have the development staff.

Hardly to make RDM useful all SE needs to do is allow our spells to work (enfeebles actually being of use, and buffs actually being able to be cast), and make RDM the best at casting these spells (by allowing magic skills to determine potency AND MACC for enfeebles, and potency and duration on all enhancing spells.)

Bang RDM has a niche, and is useful to a group, and is better at doing those particular jobs then any other job. That doesn't take much effort at all, copy and paste the skill potency shit from BRD to enfeebling and enhancing, and for enhancing change MACC to duration. Uncheck the little box that says immune to gravity, and check the little box that says paralyze can affect TP moves. (ex. a DNC losing TP because he is to paralyzed to use a dance move, yet can hit that 3K Rudra's regardless.)

Done. could be done in a very short amount of time, likely with one hand. This gives SE time to focus on a job that actually has issues, and is trash like SMN.

Seriha

01-30-2012, 02:58 AM

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish by championing enfeebling skill much. WHM, BLM, and SCH aren't THAT far behind, especially with Arts bonuses in play. It's like trying to say a BLM's Thunder IV should spank RDM's just because they have higher skill, which all it really accomplishes is more accuracy. No, BLM's Thunder V spanks RDM's Thunder IV because it's a better ability tailored toward the job's strengths. We can't quite say the same about the differences between Slow and Slow II. Plus there's still the glaring issue of, if RDMs are the "enfeebling masters" then why they don't get spells like Sleepga I and II.

No, I'd rather have spells and abilities that meant something, not some out there idea that believes just because we can hit the highest skill level, it should translate to like 15% longer sleeps than the next closest job or some realistically marginal advantage. Sorry, but that changes nothing. Doubly so for those hoping for melee integration.

And while single-target Gains and Temper may be good for others, it's still not good for the RDM. It's not good because you're adding a possible 10 spells to cycle, for basically an added minute of additional casting and waiting on the GCD before even factoring actual recast timers. It's not good because you need to weigh the benefits of duration over potency, possibly meaning even more macro space sucked up for two iterations of a spell (No, not everyone uses spellcast). It's not good because dispel happy mobs will make your life hell as people expect buffs up the moment they're gone. A single Stat+25 doesn't really turn people into gods, either.

Call me selfish if it makes you feel better, but I want the RDM itself to shine, not some "team player" BRD wannabe iteration that'll be no fun to play in a group because you're juggling so many buffs while keeping an eye on debuffs wearing and probably curing and helping with stuns depending on sub. Yeah, I know, some love the job because it can be a busy one. However, there's a difference between busy work and meaningful work. The latter is what I'm after with emphasis on making the job unique, and not yet more of the -1 of others.

Neisan_Quetz

01-30-2012, 03:35 AM

I think everyone can agree all of our T2 spells need to be reworked for increased potency, need to land on Notorious monsters, and something should be done about Addle (and most likely Slow/Para as well)...

Mageoholic

01-30-2012, 06:21 AM

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish by championing enfeebling skill much. WHM, BLM, and SCH aren't THAT far behind, especially with Arts bonuses in play.

No they are not that far behind, but RDM isn't that far behind BLM or WHM in terms of healing or nuking either. SCH doesn't have any of the native spells a RDM does (enhancing or enfeebling) and requires RDM to gain those spells at one time. The only thing that separates WHM and BLM nuking and healing is that they have tiers of spells RDM's does not. They also have traits and abilities that support their healing and nuking roles. RDM has perks to buffing and debuffing (composure and Sab).

If Skill played a larger role it would allow a RDM to gear skill of which they can push higher than WHM or BLM or SCH. Meaning that their spells (T1's) would always be more accurate, more potent, and longer lasting. This is before even taking into account that we have higher tiers of Dia, Bio, Paralyze, Gravity, Refresh, Slow, Blind, Phalanx. Some of these have issues (namely gravity, phalanx, blind, para). But RDM is in the same position as a WHM or BLM, however unlike WHM's Cure 5 our spells don't reflect of proficiency because they don't work. Unlike a BLM's Thunder 5 our spells don't reflect our proficiency because our spells don't work.

It's not good because you're adding a possible 10 spells to cycle, for basically an added minute of additional casting and waiting on the GCD before even factoring actual recast timers.

Really did you math that out all by yourself? with both temper and gain being added you gain 3seconds (both drop under the 3 second casting lock with just base fast cast.) this is 30 seconds gained buffing. At the same time these spells gain 45% duration (just from gear) which means you only cast them once every 5 minutes. In the end you have an increase to about 20% of time spent casting. (essentially doubling the current 30 seconds of a 5 man haste/refresh cycle) this is still a 40% increase over previous casting cycle times from the old 75 cap, which saw us spending nearly a third of our time cycling buffs. 1 minute/3 minutes.

If enhancing magic skill also increased duration of spells as well as potency on spells it does not (such as haste) RDM would have less than 20% time buffing and debuffing, with more than 80% of their time spend doing other things. By allowing enhancing magic skill to factor in on duration (for all jobs with it) it is a direct buff to casting time reduction. Even adding on an additional 30 seconds for potentially 10 more buffs gives us 4 minutes every buff cycle to do what ever the fuck we want.

Thats why I champion enfeebling magic and enhancing magic changes, because it benefits the group, and that will get us the invites. The changes are a direct buff to every job in the game that casts these spells, and a larger buff to RDM because it natively out skills other jobs. If a RDM can provide spells that work, better than other jobs, while at the same time as bringing the ability to perform tasks like other jobs, it will have a place again in group play, doing the same shit it did at 75 cap. Enhancing and Enfeebling, and support healing, nuking, and melee.

I get you love your melee, but how you can not see changing the way our support side works doesn't benefit melee is baffling to me. Not to mention, isn't it hard to melee when you don't get invited to groups? I don't think you are selfish, I just think you either misunderstand what the issue with RDM is, or don't understand how the game functions. I am sure its not the latter because we have had back and forths for years so Im going to assume the former. Ill give you a hint, RDM's current issues have nothing to do with melee, nuking or healing, none of those impact our invite rate.

Just to note the 60 seconds of casting time is not assuming haste/refresh/a gain spell/temper on 5 targets, a total of 12 seconds casting spent over 4 buffs per party member. It assumes the obvious reality you will likely not ever have to buff all 4 spells at the same time, realistically the most you will have to do is 3 Haste/Gain/Temper, Refresh/Gain/Haste. For a total of 45 seconds spent casting every 5 minutes. for buffing, with 5 enfeebles @ 3 seconds each bring you to total 60 seconds of casting time.

Due to enfeebles likely having to be recast at least once this gives you about 1:07 of total casting time spent, over 5 minutes. that is 3:53 seconds of melee or an average of 89 attack rounds. Or 12 Blizzard 4's, or 11 Thunder 4's, or 58 cue 4's.

Also recast has no impact whatsoever on cycle times, unless you stand there doing nothing at all for 10 seconds waiting on a buff to cool down.

Seriha

01-30-2012, 02:34 PM

I get you love your melee, but how you can not see changing the way our support side works doesn't benefit melee is baffling to me.

Proposing more time to swing, by default, is not a direct melee benefit. We've been there. People will instead insist you cure, nuke, debuff, or rest more because there is little tangible benefit to RDM's martial capacity in a party setting, let alone on more difficult content. "Melee fodder, Magic bosses" does not work as a philosophy in current endgame where our bosses just poof from the ether with no fodder involved.

It's why I've been wanting to tie a utility angle into it, but I'm not ignorant of the more specific issues to why RDM melee as a sole task has been scorned over time. You've paraded that DDs can't swap a weapon to nuke or dump a cure, but those aren't as big a perk as you make them out to be. MP is still finite in traditional Vana'diel. Not curing with an Arka IV on is 24% potency lost. Not nuking in a staff is +6 potency lost. Swapping to either is TP lost, and thus less WS frequency, thus lesser physical DoT, thus falling behind the big boys. This is one of those things I was trying to address in one of my recent posts, the cataclysmic dwarfing of backline over frontline. And this is before we even talk about the problems with enfeebling.

I've bantered on the melee issue before (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/294-On-Red-Mage-melee...?p=1616&viewfull=1#post1616) and all those points pretty much still stand if we want to do more than just auto-attack and WS effectively. So, I'll say it as I have before, I want gear I've chased to mean something for more than just playing alone or with old content. Damage is still important, even with a stronger utility aspect. For what we know now, buffs to healing and enfeebling are in the works. How they actually translate to gameplay is another matter. Neither collectively scream RDM, though, but that's part of the job's problem, it needs to be more than just parts of its sum.

ManaKing

01-30-2012, 02:35 PM

You know, ignoring people sounds more and more appealing as time goes on Saeval. It certainly would save me time reading walls of text based on personal ideologies instead of how the game actually works.

Mageoholic

01-30-2012, 08:05 PM

You've paraded that DDs can't swap a weapon to nuke or dump a cure, but those aren't as big a perk as you make them out to be. MP is still finite in traditional Vana'diel. Not curing with an Arka IV on is 24% potency lost. Not nuking in a staff is +6 potency lost. Swapping to either is TP lost, and thus less WS frequency, thus lesser physical DoT, thus falling behind the big boys.

We shouldn't be contesting with the big boys. It was fun back in the day to eek out parses that showed RDM in the 75%+ range beating the faces of little colibri, or mamool ja. It was fun. But the point is we have no business being mentioned in the same sentance as WAR, MNK, SAM, DRK, DRG when it comes to DD. Regardless of spells requiring the use of staves and ruining our TP generation, it still does not change the fact that at any given time we can swap into a different gear set and supply something completely different if the group needs it. The big boys can't do that.

Hum and haw about that as much as you like, its a fact, you may never have to change gear one fight, and another you might have to do it for every action you take. Call it the price of being able to do everything in the game decently. Only way that this will change is if SE restricts parts of the job while we are doing other things, kind of like SCH "setting" ourselves, which would imo turn RDM into a pretty unexciting job.

Want to be a big DD that can put up flashy numbers all the time, go level one, want to be a bad ass nuker who can hit 3K level one, want to be a wicked healer that can keep people alive through the toughest mobs level one, want to dabble in all 3 level RDM. Its not a hard concept.

Seriha

01-31-2012, 12:12 AM

Want people to never invite you because others do the three better? Level RDM.

Which kinda brings us back full circle to you thinking all I care about is damage.

tyrantsyn

01-31-2012, 01:24 AM

Can't really disagree with you there. I can apologize to you if you want tyrantsyn. I didn't mean to specifically offend you.

I just don't need to hear about how amazing a worthless set bonus is again. It was all things they could have just put on the job and used our set bonus for something useful.

They make tweaks and changes all the time. Is it really so hard to comprehend that just changing Composure to do that naturally wouldn't be unbalanced at all?

'Oh well shield bash and weapon bash are more interesting when you can use them more often. Lets just code that in really quick. Making composure apply to other targets normal? Well where could we possibly find the code to do that so we could do it quick? *Looks at set bonus for AF3*'

You can just refer to me as Ty everyone does. I really think what this whole dispute comes down to is personal feeling's on the set bonus. For me I'd prefer that my buff's stay up longer than the actual guy i'm looking after. Mostly because it keeps me focus on the fight and less on keeping myself tip top. The transfer of duration to other ppl are nice. But things like stoneskin, aquaveil, wouldn't gain much from duration buff so keeping this type of spell up longer would not have much of a point. And just add's something to my list of thing's to keep me busy. I see where you and Saevel feel it pointless because of the lack of transfer~able buff's we have. But I think what we need to do is talk to SE about getting more spells that transfer the effect and gear that help's extend the value of the set bonus. It would also be nice if they included some enhancing magic skill on these piece's but I won't hold my breath. "IF" the gain line spell's became single targeted, we'd have a huge new tool in our box of trick's to share. From my experience, I rarely see a boost spell from a WHM when i'm on WAR. And it kind of puzzle's me. I'm sure a RDM wouldn't share this problem, and would be one of the first thing's he did when passing out buff's.

Economizer

01-31-2012, 03:08 AM

From my experience, I rarely see a boost spell from a WHM when i'm on WAR. And it kind of puzzle's me.

The duration on the Gain/Boost lines is terrible (but not as bad as Auspice), unaffected by skill, and self-targeting with a long enough casting time that either people will run off, or you are fighting a mob that likes to spam physical damage AoEs that tend to kill.

I could write a lengthy, compelling and beautiful rant about this, but basically, it comes down to the two cases you'd be casting this spell in. For weaker mobs, gathering a group, making sure they don't run off while you're casting, and keeping a buff up that hardly gets any appreciation or makes a large difference isn't any fun. For harder stuff, I'm busy doing stuff like keeping people alive or buffing them with stuff that actually makes a significant impact on the fight, and even when I do manage to find the time for it I don't find the risk of having to spend the rest of the fight dealing with weakened timers for a moderate three minute stat boost that might not even hit everyone in the party is very compelling.

-

More to Red Mage, something I see a lot of is complaining about Red Mage melee - some people focus on it, some people like it, and some people are militantly against it (I know I'm stating the obvious, but bare with me). This clearly causes much contention for Red Mage discussion, but I think that people agreeing on things gets faster responses from SE then constantly arguing. Obviously, Red Mage and parties that invite them benefit greatly from increased enfeebling prowess, and I think that's part of the reason it has so little contention compared to other things Red Mage does.

On Enhancing Magic, I think it would benefit agreement levels if there was currently more focus towards general improvements to it that would benefit all users of Enhancing Magic (much like there is towards the healing side) such as asking for certain spells to be improved in either potency or duration based on the amount of Enhancing Magic skill one has, rather then asking for changes for new and controversial things. More importantly, I think it would be more likely to be implemented, since they would be changes to things that have been in place for longer - community reps have commented that the dev team likes to have some time to analyze the effects of newer changes in play before doing further adjustments when possible, and thus in the short term it will be harder to change newer changes.

Although it might be more useful to produce a new topic that is more generalized to this end, here is a thread that has this dev response reguarding Enhancing Magic skill and very loosely, improvements to it. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19385-Boost-spells-enhancing-gear?p=263014#post263014)

However, in the meantime, based on the current cap when reaching level 99, we would like to get a wide variety of feedback.

When giving feedback, please have discussions separating them into elements such as the below:

How to consider the cap itself in the future
Exploration of other growth methods once the cap is reached
Ideas and concepts of abilities/equipment with caps

Also relevant for any Red Mages looking to make suggestions about the changes to Healing Magic and Healing Magic Skill, here is a thread about discussion regarding SE's plans for changing the way Healing Magic works. (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17433-Cure-Formula-Changes?p=231878&viewfull=1#post231878)

ManaKing

01-31-2012, 05:25 AM

We shouldn't be contesting with the big boys. It was fun back in the day to eek out parses that showed RDM in the 75%+ range beating the faces of little colibri, or mamool ja. It was fun. But the point is we have no business being mentioned in the same sentance as WAR, MNK, SAM, DRK, DRG when it comes to DD. Regardless of spells requiring the use of staves and ruining our TP generation, it still does not change the fact that at any given time we can swap into a different gear set and supply something completely different if the group needs it. The big boys can't do that.

Hum and haw about that as much as you like, its a fact, you may never have to change gear one fight, and another you might have to do it for every action you take. Call it the price of being able to do everything in the game decently. Only way that this will change is if SE restricts parts of the job while we are doing other things, kind of like SCH "setting" ourselves, which would imo turn RDM into a pretty unexciting job.

Want to be a big DD that can put up flashy numbers all the time, go level one, want to be a bad ass nuker who can hit 3K level one, want to be a wicked healer that can keep people alive through the toughest mobs level one, want to dabble in all 3 level RDM. Its not a hard concept.

Big boys huh? That's the technical term for a job that isn't broken. Wow I never knew.

You know what is a hard concept. A job not having anything desirable to a party. But hey apparently we are decent at everything so I guess that is why the RDM forums are always so silent with content RDMs.

If you aren't here to make RDM a 'Big Boy' at something, you really should just stop posting.

ManaKing

01-31-2012, 05:35 AM

You can just refer to me as Ty everyone does. I really think what this whole dispute comes down to is personal feeling's on the set bonus. For me I'd prefer that my buff's stay up longer than the actual guy i'm looking after. Mostly because it keeps me focus on the fight and less on keeping myself tip top. The transfer of duration to other ppl are nice. But things like stoneskin, aquaveil, wouldn't gain much from duration buff so keeping this type of spell up longer would not have much of a point. And just add's something to my list of thing's to keep me busy. I see where you and Saevel feel it pointless because of the lack of transfer~able buff's we have. But I think what we need to do is talk to SE about getting more spells that transfer the effect and gear that help's extend the value of the set bonus. It would also be nice if they included some enhancing magic skill on these piece's but I won't hold my breath. "IF" the gain line spell's became single targeted, we'd have a huge new tool in our box of trick's to share. From my experience, I rarely see a boost spell from a WHM when i'm on WAR. And it kind of puzzle's me. I'm sure a RDM wouldn't share this problem, and would be one of the first thing's he did when passing out buff's.

I would have to agree with pretty much everything you said Ty. I have no problem buffing except RDM has a problem with buffs. I have my Relic +2 Body and Hands, but there is no way another party member is going to see those numbers + my set bonus EVEN if I could give them something qualitative from Enhancing.

Mageoholic

01-31-2012, 05:45 AM

If you aren't here to make RDM a 'Big Boy' at something, you really should just stop posting.

You don't read what you reply to do you. My aim has been to make RDM the big boy of enfeebling and enhancing, by making us the undisputed best at both aspects (as far as spells go, songs and other stuff are other jobs babies).

Some people like that idea, some don't (as usual not everyone is pleased with the same stuff.) I guarantee you though you will see a lot more action on RDM with a fix that makes us the best buffer/debuffer, then a comparable melee, nuker, healer to the other plethora of jobs capable of performing these roles.

But you don't want to be the big boy of support, when in reality it is the only place a RDM will ever see action. Unless SE greatly reduces our ability to be versatile you will never be a DD like a WAR, or nuke like a BLM or heal like a WHM, and you shouldn't expect to.

Unless you want to be reduces to a one trick pony every time you leave your house, in which case why not level one of the dedicated jobs that currently exist to perform those roles.

Want people to never invite you because others do the three better? Level RDM.

Exactly so why not focus on something that is attainable, like being the best spell (not song etc) buff/debuff job in the game. As expressed earlier even carrying a 15 buff cycle (3 buffs per 5 party memebers) and out enfeebles we still have nearly 4 minutes to do all of our other shit.

Getting invited to groups should be our first priority as a job, and until RDM has something it can say it is clearly better than other jobs at, this won't happen. There is only one solution that won't cause people to freak out, and that is a support mage increase, and this is only true because all of our abilities stack with other support jobs.

I don't know why it is so hard for you to understand. SE will never make RDM a DD people would chose to have because it has nukes and heals as well, SE will never buff RDM nuking to the point it would be picked over a BLM or SCH because it can melee and heal, and SE will never buff RDM healing to the point of WHM because it can melee and nuke (semantic arguments aside).

The only option is support mage, we step on no toes (SCH has no native support), our spells stack with DNC BRD COR. The only one who might get hurt is SMN, but that jobs is so fucked already it is bottom of the barrel for everything unless you need Alex.

I agree we could use tweaks to gearing options, but in all honesty focusing on any of nuking, healing, melee as the main focus of the job is a crap shoot at best.

tyrantsyn

01-31-2012, 07:34 AM

I would have to agree with pretty much everything you said Ty. I have no problem buffing except RDM has a problem with buffs. I have my Relic +2 Body and Hands, but there is no way another party member is going to see those numbers + my set bonus EVEN if I could give them something qualitative from Enhancing.

Like I said, we need gear that gives enhancing skill and duration bonuses together like the Estoqueur's cape. And spell's that are worth transferring to other's on top of that. I would hope that if the Dev's are reading this they take note. It would go a long way to helping the RDM community be happy in the field of enhancing.

Edit: For all that gear we already have with the E. Skill bonuses included but no way to transfer the effect do to the lack of gear. Maybe a JT can be added or a merit effect to transfer extra duration to spells when casted to other's.

Mageoholic

01-31-2012, 08:31 AM

Or just tack it on to Enhancing magic skill itself, that way any job that buffs with spells of that type can take advantage of increased duration. I am sure WHM's SCH's and PLD's would love to have increased buff durations too. (of course RDM would still be the king of that having highest native skill, and access to the largest amount of +skill gear.)

ManaKing

01-31-2012, 04:09 PM

Getting invited to groups should be our first priority as a job, and until RDM has something it can say it is clearly better than other jobs at, this won't happen. There is only one solution that won't cause people to freak out, and that is a support mage increase, and this is only true because all of our abilities stack with other support jobs.

Agreed, BUT you are still assuming they will make Enfeebling/Enhancing worth while to a party, much less make RDM actually proficient at using it. Because Enfeebling/Enhancing is in a poor state, RDM stuffers because that was part of their identity. Enfeebling/Enhancing not being equally worth a party spot as Nuking, Healing, DD, or Alternative Supports is the problem. Until the problem is fixed, the symptoms of RDM can't be resolved. If they aren't going to ever fix the problem, then I would rather RDM doesn't focus it's future updates on something that will do nothing to increase the value of RDMs.

I'm not against Enfeebling at all, but buffing has always been rather lack-luster in it's game design. Some of buffs were too good not to cycle around a party, but it really doesn't make for interesting game play VS just AOEing it and moving on to actually focusing on the MOB instead of your party's artificially created need for you to buff them individually. Unless the Single Target Buffs of RDM are going to be so much better than the AOE buffs of every other job, then you really aren't doing RDM any favors by intentionally hobbling it.

I don't know why it is so hard for you to understand. SE will never make RDM a DD people would chose to have because it has nukes and heals as well, SE will never buff RDM nuking to the point it would be picked over a BLM or SCH because it can melee and heal, and SE will never buff RDM healing to the point of WHM because it can melee and nuke (semantic arguments aside).

BLU is looking at you like you don't realize it is in the game and I'll spare you the talk about how good Hammers and Club WSs are because I'm tired of them as well. It would be one thing if BLU didn't heal better than RDM, but that it does that and Buffs at the same time that makes everything very one sides for me. I'm not interested in hearing what RDM isn't allowed to be because BLU is in the game and it outshines us HARD. Am I sad that I don't have to reset my procs every time I do VW and that my job is getting shit all over by the proc system? NO. But if the next set of content doesn't result in ANOTHER proc system, BLU VS RDM is not going to be a contest. They will step all over us in every category. AND the problem isn't BLU, it's RDM.

Do we need to be another BLU? No. But we don't need to be another BRD either. I don't really care which way it goes so long is it is implemented well. Do I prefer melee? You bet my Almace I do, but I like the mage aspect of my job just as much as the melee, that's why I'm a RDM. I have no interest in compromising either side nor excluding either unless I'm going to get something amazing out of it. So long as RDM becomes a legitimate force to be reckoned with, I would be satisfied. I'm very tired of these half-assed buffs that make me believe devs don't even consider RDM a real job when they plan new content.

Mageoholic

01-31-2012, 07:56 PM

@Mana King, please read what you reply too. "I agree but I agree completely" replies are getting old. Every time you reply you attempt to refute what I have said, by saying exactly what I said several times already (over several threads now). It just doesn't make any sense.

As for BLU their ability to buff is limited to a 10 minute JA, they are no better at buffing then a RDM is. Can they heal better, presently yes they can, but that is because SE paid no mind at all to the issues of healing magic until every job in the game was casting Cure 4 the same as every job in the game (at base value). BLU is not some magical awesome, its melee sucks, likely worse than a good RDM melee player, where it makes up for this is in spell damage, quick casting high damage spells. That's not even including the fact that they have limited MP, unless they sub RDM which limits their offensive output via melee even more. Furthermore, BLU is only a better healer or nuker then RDM if they have the spells set for that, if they do not they are married to a 1 minute reset timer that allows them contribute practically nothing to the group for a whole 60's seconds.

A RDM, well they can apply their decent melee, decent nuking, decent healing with an instant gear swap/spell macro. Whenever they want, married to nothing but what gear and spells they have. Until SE adjust Enfeebling and Enhancing there is no place for RDM in a group, because frankly it just doesn't offer anything other jobs do better, even if it is able to adequately perform several roles at the same time. It is the only direction for RDM improvement that will have the desired effect of making RDM useful. The job will never be brought as a melee DD, a nuking DD, or a healer over the other jobs in this game, and sadly there is no room for a hybrid amongst dedicated jobs. (unless the hybrid is actually useful to the group by making those dedicated jobs better.)

tyrantsyn

02-01-2012, 12:37 AM

I don't know why it is so hard for you to understand. SE will never make RDM a DD people would chose to have because it has nukes and heals as well, SE will never buff RDM nuking to the point it would be picked over a BLM or SCH because it can melee and heal, and SE will never buff RDM healing to the point of WHM because it can melee and nuke (semantic arguments aside).

BLU is looking at you like you don't realize it is in the game

Mana.... come on, take a minute, look at what you wrote and what Mage wrote. He was only referring to RDM. At no point in what you quoted from him did he make reference to any other job. He was talking just about RDM. "IF" you are looking for SE to make RDM more like BLU than your going to be out of luck.

If RDM is going to succeed at anything, it's going to have to play into it's own strength's. Which is Enfeebling and Enhancing. We need more end game utility out of enfeeble's and a list of single target enhancing magic spell's that benefit from our high end skill and our duration buff. This will give us the end game utility as a job that would be worth wild.

Almost all of us would love to see more melee added to the job. But as it sit's now were just have to rely on sub's and gear. If were lucky SE might throw something our way in the form of a spell to help increase it. If that happen tho, it needs to be a target~able spell so that we can share it with other's. We don't need another Temper, where we have this awesome thing and for some odd reason as a job, we have no intention of sharing it. Spell's like that are good but there not great.

Neisan_Quetz

02-01-2012, 12:44 AM

You can't say blu melee sucks when it has same weapon better gear traits and more freedom of sub than Rdm does for meleeing. It's just stuck with the same limitations as any other job that usually uses 1h weapons, and typically better than any other mage.

Mageoholic

02-01-2012, 02:51 AM

BLU is just as tied to /NIN as RDM is. Its gearing options are more or less the same, it has essentially the same ACC and ATK, and weaponskills for the most part. While enspells do not work on weaponskills they are very good sources of additional damage. In a straight melee race RDM will trump BLU in terms of damage applied via melee. (although this gap has closed quite a bit since 75 when BLU couldn't cap gear haste, and had no access to (realistic) multi-hit weapons to off hand)

SE has a hard on for hybrid tax, RDM's tax is that because it has no limitation factor on spells and abilities available to it, it is inherently weaker. Unlike SCH BLU and even DNC who can all be solid DD's(nukes/melee combination of both), Healers, but more or less lock themselves into one role or the other, (DNC burns TP to heal, SCH married to Arts, and BLU limited in spells it can set) A RDM can cast its spells whenever, wherever.

As my good buddy Tanaka would say: BALANCE!!!

Thus the only way RDM will ever be a strong (comparable full time) DD, Nuker, Healer is if SE restricted other aspects of the job when we are performing a specific action. Personally I have no issue with shutting down my melee side to be a better caster, and vice versa. But that still doesn't solve the issue with RDM not being invited at all. If you want a DD you get a DD, a Healer a Healer, a Nuker a Nuker.

To be a broken record, the only realistic place for a RDM to be buffed (aka fixed) to get a party spot is Support Mage, meaning enfeebling and enhancing skills and spells need to be fixed, to set RDM apart from the rest of the buffer/debuffer mages. Binary casting is very 2004, especially with 3-4 jobs all being relatively the same, there needs to be some way to be distinctive. WHM has healing and divinemagic, BLM has Elemental and Dark magic, RDM should get support magics, enfeebling and enhancing.

Economizer

02-01-2012, 03:04 AM

BLU is just as tied to /NIN as RDM is.

Blue Mage can get Dual Wield III natively (although this is tied to setting certain spells), thus Blue Mage has slightly better options in terms of subs.

Neisan_Quetz

02-01-2012, 03:14 AM

The only main 1h melee actually lacking either dual wield or the ability to set it ignoring the mage jobs is BST (Pld doesn't count as they use shields in offhand).

Mageoholic

02-01-2012, 05:30 AM

Yes certain spells, they are either married to /NIN or they are locking certain spells, and reducing their overall utility because they are doing that. RDM can /NIN and still have access to all of its spells at any time. This is why BLU should fair better than us in SE's mind (and to an extent my mind as well) SE looks at RDM as a job that can do anything at anytime, and as such we are penalized for it. What SE doesn't realize is that we can't really do everything all the time.

On paper (and the reason ive been repeating it) RDM can do everything at once. This however isn't practical, we can't do everything at once, because the more we spread ourselves out doing things, we drastically reduce the effectiveness of those things. The more we do the less we do really. But SE doesn't know that because they (obviously) don't play their own game (and haven't for years), they only see the paper stuff.

This is why RDM has basically idled since around 2004. SE looks at the jobs ability and say to themselves, this job already has a lot, it already can do everything well. They don't see that if I nuke and heal I really am just cutting the ability to do both in half. If I am meleeing and doing other stuff I really just cutting the other in half (keep a sword, or swap to a a staff, type thing). This is why SE has been hesitant about adding stuff directly to the job, and allowing the job to effectively help team mates. They are afraid that RDM will become to strong because it can already do so much.

What SE has missed though or overlooked or not bothered to acknowledge is that through /RDM other jobs catch up to us, through limiting our enfeebles other jobs mimic us, through limiting enhancements jobs start to surpass us. SE has let the job sit in one spot, and now other jobs we had a competitive edge on for a party spot, are now using abilities from the RDM job, while subbing it to perform the duties that traditionally were RDM duties, nearly as well as RDM itself (or better in some cases).

It is absurd, SE needs to stop looking at paper and listen to the people who play the game. RDM as a main job should be twice as good as RDM as a sub job.

I think RDM in comparison to other jobs is pretty decent, outside of gearing options, and maybe a minor tweak such as removing EX WS's, maybe giving RDM additional enfeeble options for MEVA- MDB- It is the fact that jobs gain so much from /RDM and that our buffs and enfeebles systems are fucked that irritate me.

The kick in the crotch is that SE seems to think that RDM and /RDM should be equals, not a damn word on why a lot of jobs can be 90% the main job, through subbing said job, or relying on the fact that SE has limited enfeebling usefulness, and limited Enhancing magic (spells for RDM) and proper skill progression (haste being 15% from a level 48 subjob (earlier /WHM), and being 15% from my main job is fucking retarded.)

The only thing RDM gets is higher tiers of the damn spells. No bonus for actually having a viable skill set, other than that.

Im done my after work rant now.

saevel

02-01-2012, 07:25 AM

Blue Mage can get Dual Wield III natively (although this is tied to setting certain spells), thus Blue Mage has slightly better options in terms of subs.

This pretty much proves he doesn't know what he's talking about. As of 99 no BLU should be /NIN, Occulation is 9 shadows and six spells make DWIII. It's /WAR for pure offense, /WHM or /RDM for support.

Also RDM will NEVER be a party buffing job again. SE kinda went out of their way to make sure about that. When I asked them they told us point blank that WHM was for party buffing and RDM was for self buffing. Thus anyone thinking to make RDM into the old "haste / refresh / xxx / cure b1tch" is nosing down the wrong ally.

Mageoholic

02-01-2012, 09:55 AM

Obviously you fail to read or maybe me saying RDM is more versatile because it has access to all its spells at anytime, unlike BLU who must set spells wasn't obvious enough of a point. But just so we are a little more understanding to get DWIII a BLU must use 1/3 of its available spell "points" to unlock one ability. (20/60 @ 99) . That hardly seems versatile to me.

Then again I guess I don't know what I am talking about, I suppose I imagined BLU depending on a 1 minute spell set mechanic to change spells (and roles) on the "fly".

Thus anyone thinking to make RDM into the old "haste / refresh / xxx / cure b1tch" is nosing down the wrong ally.
OMG why do you have to troll all the time, you come in here with your anti-casting rhetoric. You are such a troll its such a good thing that we can blacklist each other like big boys because we don't agree on where the job should go.

/sarcasm.

Why am I even replying to you anyway.

(You of course have a link to this post by SE yes? Where they state, point blank that WHM is the party buffer, and RDM only buffs themselves. This is exactly what they said? Id love to see it. I think SE said WHM was the AoE buffer, and RDM was going to remain single traget, which is a far cry from self buff only.)

Neisan_Quetz

02-01-2012, 11:36 AM

SE said single/self targeting, not only self target (still badly described since it's basically Phalanx2/Refresh2 that are Rdm only).

Original Post:

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

cidbahamut

02-01-2012, 12:53 PM

Why am I even replying to you anyway.

Because flame-bait is delicious and oh so tempting.

Mageoholic

02-01-2012, 01:01 PM

SE said single/self targeting, not only self target (still badly described since it's basically Phalanx2/Refresh2 that are Rdm only).

Original Post:

Figured as much. Hence why adjustments to Gain Spells, Bar Spells, Temper would fit into that whole Single Target enhancement sort of thing.

Because flame-bait is delicious and oh so tempting.
Well I had to point out his trolling, he is anti-mage, and goes into every thread disrupting it. Tankfully I am a big boy and have him black listed now because I don't like opinions that are different then mine.

ManaKing

02-01-2012, 07:40 PM

A RDM, well they can apply their decent melee, decent nuking, decent healing with an instant gear swap/spell macro. Whenever they want, married to nothing but what gear and spells they have. Until SE adjust Enfeebling and Enhancing there is no place for RDM in a group, because frankly it just doesn't offer anything other jobs do better, even if it is able to adequately perform several roles at the same time. It is the only direction for RDM improvement that will have the desired effect of making RDM useful. The job will never be brought as a melee DD, a nuking DD, or a healer over the other jobs in this game, and sadly there is no room for a hybrid amongst dedicated jobs. (unless the hybrid is actually useful to the group by making those dedicated jobs better.)

There you go. You finally did it. You made a persuasive paragraph that didn't ramble on and addressed the issues being talked about. You got a thumbs up and I do actually agree with this statement because it rings true and puts the burden on SE to actually fix their shit instead of make RDM continue to try to fit into a game it can't compete in. Thank you.

So what are you going to say if they keep messing up enfeebling/enhancing? You can counter that as a what if on a maybe, if you want.

ManaKing

02-01-2012, 07:43 PM

The only main 1h melee actually lacking either dual wield or the ability to set it ignoring the mage jobs is BST (Pld doesn't count as they use shields in offhand).

I offhand my pet when I play BST. ~.^

Mageoholic

02-01-2012, 08:01 PM

So what are you going to say if they keep messing up enfeebling/enhancing? You can counter that as a what if on a maybe, if you want.

Nothing Ive put my idea how to solve the problem out there. It is of my opinion that if SE fixes the issues with enfeebling and enhancing that RDM will actually have a role again, which means a party invite, and thus allowing us to participate in a group event other than spamming our 5 proc spells in hopes one takes.

If SE has no ambition to fix the issues with the job (and its not just RDM it is the whole enhancing/enfeebling system in general) then it doesn't matter what else I say on top of that. I think they want to fix it, they just don't know how. Contrary to other "popular" suggestions here, Id personally rather have a niche role then being healer, or melee or nuker number X.

But in the end SE will give us some other lame ability and think it fixes everything, more likely is that said ability will be tied to melee so we can compete with 8 jobs instead of a couple. I mean it is what they need to do the most right Seriha,

Economizer

02-01-2012, 10:20 PM

This pretty much proves he doesn't know what he's talking about. As of 99 no BLU should be /NIN, Occulation is 9 shadows and six spells make DWIII. It's /WAR for pure offense, /WHM or /RDM for support.

Well, I dunno about never subbing NIN or DNC ever considering other traits you can get from setting spells differently, but it certainly opens up far more options. Blue Mages in the playerbase would be wise to try them out and see what fits their play-style best. Blue Mage is far and away one of the most versatile jobs currently, and I could see the game continuing even if SE went crazy one day and restricted every job to 49 or lower except BLU.

Personally, I've been trying to convince a BLU friend to consider subbing RDM on occasion for solo/duo events rather then just NIN all the time, but regardless, some situations will call for subbing NIN or even DNC (although /DNC is more of a result of Dynamis procs being brokenly imbalanced). I imagine RDM would be considered even more useful if Blue Magic "Magic" spells were more powerful relative to "Physical" spells (although my perception here might be from a lack of 100% understanding of the job), or perhaps if Red Mage also had "Magic Accuracy" as a job trait and some of the tiers were sub usable.

tyrantsyn

02-02-2012, 12:30 AM

I offhand my pet when I play BST. ~.^

That must be quite a site.

tyrantsyn

02-02-2012, 12:42 AM

Red mage was designed to be proficient in the ways of enfeebling magic and single-target/self enhancements. Magic spells were split so that red mages focused on single-target magic, while white mages excelled in AoE magic.

In regards to Haste specifically, the stats surrounding the spell were created for a single target in mind, so for balance reasons we have no plans to make it possible to turn it into an AoE spell.

Due to this, we do not have plans of allowing red mage spells to simply be changed into AoE spells.

You know I never ask this in the other thread so I might as well ask it now. Whats the difference in balance between me casting this spell once as a aoe and casting 4 to 5 time's on single target's? Is the balance in the time it take's to actual cast it over and over again? because that's the only noticeable difference I can see.

And with that question I ask another, If the reason haste could not be made into a AOE threw accession because of it's potency as a single target spell. Does that mean the single targeted gain spell's are more potent than the boost spell line? Because from what I understand there equal.

saevel

02-02-2012, 04:13 AM

Well, I dunno about never subbing NIN or DNC ever considering other traits you can get from setting spells differently, but it certainly opens up far more options. Blue Mages in the playerbase would be wise to try them out and see what fits their play-style best. Blue Mage is far and away one of the most versatile jobs currently, and I could see the game continuing even if SE went crazy one day and restricted every job to 49 or lower except BLU.

Personally, I've been trying to convince a BLU friend to consider subbing RDM on occasion for solo/duo events rather then just NIN all the time, but regardless, some situations will call for subbing NIN or even DNC (although /DNC is more of a result of Dynamis procs being brokenly imbalanced). I imagine RDM would be considered even more useful if Blue Magic "Magic" spells were more powerful relative to "Physical" spells (although my perception here might be from a lack of 100% understanding of the job), or perhaps if Red Mage also had "Magic Accuracy" as a job trait and some of the tiers were sub usable.

DNC / RDM / WHM / SCH are all valid subs for different situations but not /NIN. For pure offense /WAR gives you the most due to Begressor alone, not to mention the bonus from AB / DA. /DNC is a solid choice for Dynamis. /RDM / WHM / SCH are for support situations where your expected to assist heal. My fruits are between 500~600 depending on if I'm off handing a Galenius or not, BLU can get some seriously high heals.

Mageoholic

02-02-2012, 05:42 AM

You know I never ask this in the other thread so I might as well ask it now. Whats the difference in balance between me casting this spell once as a aoe and casting 4 to 5 time's on single target's? Is the balance in the time it take's to actual cast it over and over again? because that's the only noticeable difference I can see.

And with that question I ask another, If the reason haste could not be made into a AOE threw accession because of it's potency as a single target spell. Does that mean the single targeted gain spell's are more potent than the boost spell line? Because from what I understand there equal.

SE wouldn't know what balance was if it bit them in the ass. They throw the word around because its a trendy word in MMO's it provides the guise of actually working on shit. Case in point.

SMN's elementals now cost less MP to keep out, but still do relatively anything of use other than Elemental Siphon, which defeats the purpose of reducing MP costs since you use it for a brief JA and that is it.

That is SE balance for you, instead of balancing SMN's to actually be useful buffers or DD's via Ward/Blood pact timer reductions or charges, they instead target something that has absolutely zero effect on making SMN any better or worse.

Fluff is fluff is fluff.

Ironcially RDM has had its own experience in this. At the 75 cap SE gave us an awesome ability called composure, that extended the duration of enhancing spells, but only on ourselves. Now we can extend that bonus to others, but our spell library has been reduced (in a sense) considering the only buffs we have to cast are Refresh II and lolPhalanx II, Everything else is now available for use by other jobs via sub jobs.

BRD can cap haste by itself for a whole party. (RDM can only give 15%) while /RDM
BRD can give 10MP/tick refresh for a whole party (RDM can only give 6) while /RDM
BRD can then give its other buffs as well (up to 4 AoE buffs at a time)

BALANCE!!!!!.

tyrantsyn

02-02-2012, 05:54 AM

Yeah, I'll never expected a response from the Dev's on that one. But It does serve as an interesting mouse trap if they do attempt it.

perhaps their mind's are as enfeeble as our's on the whole matter.

Mageoholic

02-02-2012, 05:59 AM

cidbahamut

02-02-2012, 06:05 AM

The RDM community is the reason RDM doesn't get updated.

^

We can't agree on anything at all.

ManaKing

02-02-2012, 06:26 AM

ManaKing

02-02-2012, 06:47 AM

Devs likely won't respond here anyway, because you will have the anti-mages crucifying them for ignoring melee, and you will have the anti-melee crucifying for ignoring mage buffs, then you have people like myself that would like to see round the table buffs, starting with the weakest and moving on from there.

The RDM community is the reason RDM doesn't get updated.

Crucifixions make for entertaining afternoons. But alas. The RDM community is part of the reason we don't get updates. We really are the nail that stood out the hardest, so SE hammered us into place so we would never be out of line again.

RDM the premier healer for large amounts of content? Kite/Nuke all day, while other jobs have to watch? BAD RDM!

Look what happened, RDM is BAD.

I hate to point this out, but pissing off Devs seems to get you an Old Testament response. I just think if they designed RDM better, that it would stand out less in the deviant sense. It would be nice if they would act like game devs and fix their game so the people that pay for it monthly could appreciate it.

I'm not going to threaten quitting, because I like this game too much and everything else on the market is very substandard. I'll stick playing RDM pretty much regardless of what the Devs do, because I like it that much and nothing else plays like it. BUT it would be nice if they rewarded their loyal customers with BALANCE that is long over due.

Seriha

02-02-2012, 07:02 AM

...then you have people like myself that would like to see round the table buffs...

Funny, you seem rather anti-melee of late. Or is this the whole selective viewing of the big picture act again?

Neisan_Quetz

02-02-2012, 08:03 AM

Or maybe Rdm's melee isn't the fucking problem with the job right now and other shit needs to be fixed first.

Mageoholic

02-02-2012, 08:28 AM

You seem to confuse anti-melee with content of current melee ability. I am pretty pleased with where melee is at the moment personally, there are a couple MINOR changes that I would like to see changed, such as putting us back on daggers, and removing EX weaponskills (the specials like shark bite and swift blade should stay). But those are minor tweaks that pale in comparison to the issues with enfeebling and enhancing (and to and extent healing but we will have to see what SE does with the changes to skill affecting healing done before I get off on that tangent again).

If you take my wanting to be able to have use for my enfeebles (outside of Dia III and Bio III), and to have them actually land (Gravity, Gravity II) and to be able to land them better than other jobs (NIN's Kuryami for example), and to have their potency representitive of skill (so my t2's actually hit more efficiently then my T1's and other jobs using T1's).

Or take my wanting to have all enhancing spells scale with skill so (/RDM, and /WHM) can't cast 15% haste just like RDM and WHM main, or land a comparable Phalanx (such a PLD hitting 30-31, and RDM capping at 35-36.), and to actually be able to buff my allys with specific buffs that can't be used except on myself, 1 of which is highly situational, and the other which I can get from a WHM at the same potency.

If you want to take that as anti-melee by all means do so. If you can't see that there are bigger issues with the job then melee then I don't know what else to say to you other than you are ignorant, and blind.

When 40% of the job is next to useless, you don't focus on the 20% that is currently doing just fine if you put the effort into making it such.

saevel

02-02-2012, 08:40 AM

Funny, you seem rather anti-melee of late. Or is this the whole selective viewing of the big picture act again?

He been anti-melee since a few years ago.

It's been my opinion that RDD/RCD has moved on from RDM and plays other jobs now, he's only here to troll us and stir people into being angry. Everyone here knows full well that SE isn't going to change anything on RDM for four to six months at the earliest. Their too busy trying to fix the cluster f*ck they made of Voidwatch and introduce ~something~ for EGLS's to do, thus Legion is made. Their working with a skeletal dev team and only have time for cursory changes, like what they did to DRK / PLD's bash timers. At the same time their busy trying to fix jobs that aren't broken "SCH / DRG" by appearing to give them things, but really just changing a few numbers in a table. He knows this, so he's just trying to stir people up cause it's been rather dead lately.

cidbahamut

02-02-2012, 08:46 AM

It's been my opinion that RDD/RCD has moved on from RDM and plays other jobs now, he's only here to troll us and stir people into being angry.
No, I'm pretty sure that's your job.

P.S.
Word on the street is that Scholar is in a pretty sad state at the moment.

Mageoholic

02-02-2012, 09:13 AM

Their working with a skeletal dev team and only have time for cursory changes, like what they did to DRK / PLD's bash timers. At the same time their busy trying to fix jobs that aren't broken "SCH / DRG" by appearing to give them things, but really just changing a few numbers in a table. He knows this, so he's just trying to stir people up cause it's been rather dead lately.

So lets waste what minimal time the devs have per job on melee updates!, instead of fixing two game systems that are fucked up entirely, and just so happen to affect this job greatly. Lets ask and ask and ask for a side of the job that not everyone enjoys to get buffed, and ignore the portion of the job EVERYONE uses (even when the job is meleeing). You are an ignorant tool.

ANTI-MELEE FOR LIFE! (lulz)

Seriha

02-02-2012, 09:37 AM

Here's an interesting concept: Some might not enjoy it because it's simply ineffective.

cidbahamut

02-02-2012, 09:44 AM

Here's an interesting concept: Some might not enjoy it because it's simply ineffective.

Except you can't play both sides of the fence like that. saevel's come in here before epeening about his leet CDC's and how RDM is totally viable on the front lines of Voidwatch. It's clearly effective in some capacity, you're just impossible to satisfy because the rest of the playerbase has yet to demand that you get your keister to the front line. But here's the thing: short of fundamentally altering Red Mage and turning into a different job entirely, it is highly unlikely that the playerbase will ever want you on the front line.

Seriha

02-02-2012, 09:56 AM

Yeah, I guess a decade of inaction can influence things like that. Enter ye olde chicken and egg debate.

Mageoholic

02-02-2012, 10:44 AM

Maybe your inaction.

I have always contested that RDM was in a decent place, I could link you to at least a dozen thread I have participated in, started and trolled in. It has always been a viable option to play, however most just tuck tail and sit in the back. I used to melee on kings and sky gods casting Ichi spells, meleeing in Ceremonial daggers. I leveled nearly entirely on melee with the exception of middle levels before colibri came out. (SE helped by adding composure in these levels).

It has been your inaction that has led to your being upset, it is your in action now. RDM/DNC is a perfectly solid option for front line work in all events. (cross thread shenanigans) It is hardly the self sabatoge you claim it is, to lower your personal damage to enhance everyones.

Here's an interesting concept: Some might not enjoy it because it's simply ineffective.

and some might not enjoy it because they tried melee, and didn't like it, and prefer to be a caster. Some might have picked RDM to dabble in everything, and understand because of that we couldn't be stellar at them all(like me!!!!). What is your point.

ManaKing

02-02-2012, 09:43 PM

When 40% of the job is next to useless, you don't focus on the 20% that is currently doing just fine if you put the effort into making it such.

It's only 20% if you don't use it. If you do, it's closer to 50%. I can't pretend 1/2 the job isn't broken. But of what is still functional and has been functional for the past 2+ years, melee makes up about 1/2 of a RDMs arsenal. I'm not in favor of it, but it's still entirely possible that the rest of the job will never be coming back. If that's the case, I know where I want my buffs. The part that is going to be used because that is what the devs said we were going to use.

ManaKing

02-02-2012, 09:45 PM

No, I'm pretty sure that's your job.

P.S.
Word on the street is that Scholar is in a pretty sad state at the moment.

It's still a better mage than RDM. Oh but wait, RDM is more than just a mage, right? ~.^

Neisan_Quetz

02-02-2012, 10:00 PM

If by useful every 2 hours like Smn is then yes, Sch is useful. Both have little use versus stronger monsters at the moment.

saevel

02-02-2012, 10:31 PM

It's still a better mage than RDM. Oh but wait, RDM is more than just a mage, right? ~.^

In all honestly, right now there is only two "end game" events, if you could call them that. First being Voidwatch, second being Dynamis. Dynamis may be a haven for BST/DNC's right now, but the NM's still have ~some~ drops that are worth it.

First for voidwatch. RDM does have a role, although rather niche and limited. Due to the changes in SCH procs, a RDM/SCH can bring the full SCH proc set along with RDM's own merit procs and the Tier I~IV's. Currently there is no other way to get Para II / Slow II / Blind II / Dia III / Bio III, and if your going to be there might as well cover the others you can do and take some of the procing load off the BLMs. It's an incredibly small roll and not worth much, but it works. Lately I've found myself going BLU/WAR more and more often, good BLU's are hard to find these days and RDM's have become disposable.

Dynamis is a different cookie. I've gone RDM/DNC with my BLU/DNC friend and we've cleaned out camps of DC's. Dynamis zones are nothing ~but~ ash and trash mobs, the exact kinds that RDM's melee skills are effective against. It's a low man situation requiring that each member be as self sufficient as possible, basically has RDM written all over it. It's pretty limited as it's almost entirely classified as "farming", but it's effective and it works wonderfully.

Now there is a new system coming, and honestly RDM probably won't work well with it, but who knows. This board is full of suggestions on how to fix the job, its not hard and honestly it's only broken because SE programmed it to be broken.

Neisan_Quetz

02-02-2012, 10:52 PM

Think you mean Blu is hard to find in general, at least for PUG. They certainly don't care what weapons the blu has as long as it has spells, and they certainly don't care about what subjob they have on, or even if they never touch the mob at all.

But that applies to any job brought along for proc'ing.

cidbahamut

02-02-2012, 10:57 PM

It's still a better mage than RDM.

Debatable.

Oh but wait, RDM is more than just a mage, right? ~.^
Is this flame-bait? This is flame-bait, right?

ShadowViper

02-03-2012, 08:57 AM

I know SE has put down the concept a few times but MAN would it squash alot of the bickering in the RDM communities-

AURA BUFFS - buffs that have a small range of a "sphere" effect that strength relies on enhancing skill that gives a solid buff to nearby members. For those that don't want to melee the sphere can be used to benifit other mages while the melee RDM can add sphere effect to nearby melee/tanks, personally i would add these "sphere" effects on top of like EN2 spells to make those spells useful. The sphere could be different than the normal effect of the spell.

Mageoholic

02-03-2012, 11:11 AM

AURA BUFFS

No.

If I want to melee I want to be able to buff my mages.
If I want to nuke I want to be able to buff my melee.
If I want to heal I want to be able to buff my melee.

There is no reason to have 2 RDM's per party it doesn't make sense, considering nothing they have stacks.

Unless you are suggestion Alliance wide aura's in which case, pinch yourself you are dreaming.

ENII's are useful. They apply nearly the same damage increas, but allow you to get benefits of Samabas. (from party DNC or as /DNC). Which is an incredibly friendly increase to damage, from both melee hits, and enspells. Much more than the decrease.

If no DNC or /DNC you can use ENI's.

ManaKing

02-03-2012, 11:18 AM

Debatable.

Is this flame-bait? This is flame-bait, right?

Idk, is it?

No.

If I want to melee I want to be able to buff my mages.
If I want to nuke I want to be able to buff my melee.
If I want to heal I want to be able to buff my melee.

There is no reason to have 2 RDM's per party it doesn't make sense, considering nothing they have stacks.

Unless you are suggestion Alliance wide aura's in which case, pinch yourself you are dreaming.

ENII's are useful. They apply nearly the same damage increas, but allow you to get benefits of Samabas. (from party DNC or as /DNC). Which is an incredibly friendly increase to damage, from both melee hits, and enspells. Much more than the decrease.

If no DNC or /DNC you can use ENI's.

Enspell 2s don't work particularly well on anyone that doesn't have native enhancing magic. It was bad by design and never got fixed.....just like most things on the job. If they changed Enspell 2s to reflect the enhancing magic on cast from the originator it would be fine, but that's not even how it works on RDM (much to our disappointment). Expect that to get fixed around the same time Enfeebles/Enhancing even get looked at, much less fixed.

Mageoholic

02-03-2012, 11:45 AM

ManaKing

02-03-2012, 01:49 PM

Good thing ENII's can't be cast on others then or SE would have a real issue. (the only reason ENI's retain the casted potency is because Accession allows them to be AoE, thats it thats all.)

Enspell II's work fine on RDM and gives RDM access to Haste Samba from DNC main or /DNC, both of which provide a larger increase to damage then a full cast Enspell II would.

500*6/100 = 30 * 2 = 60 DMG at capped potency enspell II
404*6/100 = 48
60/48 = a 25% increase.

/DNC haste samba = 45/40 = 12.5%
DNC haste samba = 50/40 = 25%

A DNC main offsets the % loss completely, and as /DNC (assuming no main DNC) it provides an additonal 33% more in attack on top off 12.5% damage from haste. Attack which carries over on the more frequent weaponskills. (about a 45% increase to damage, where nin provides a 40% increase or so)

ENII's are probably the most useful tool in our melee arsenal, they allow us to increase our damage by more than /NIN, or allow us to increase the potential of /NIN by 25% + the increased WS frequency.

25% enspell 1's don't stack up, thus EN2's are much better depending on the situation. (which can be all the time if you /DNC while you melee).

(i did not include merits in ENII's it might make DNC main haste samaba actually more beneficial then an ENII. At max potency)\

Dont have DNC or DNC sub, the use ENI's. Issue resolved, you are welcome.

In a party, 100% Agreed. If there isn't a DNC there you can actually help out.

As a solo, RDM is getting pretty good at double attacking, one might call it a strength that RDM has. I'm more inclined to see it as a nice bonus that was added to the job, since it really was only recently we got it. En2s don't really do anything for someone that has a decent double attack setup with good enhancing magic.

I get 30 extra damage between 2-4 times a round. My offhand is a Double Attack Khadga. I rarely only attack 2 per round when dual wielding. I've turned my Almace into a Joyeuse +1 and given myself an extra attack that comes with it's own enspell 1 damage. (30 x 3) / 48 is closer to the number in a solo setup.

If you are being selfish, Enspell 1s > 2s. But honestly SE could just fix it so Enspell 2s would just work better in general. Enspells have always been my favorite buffs in the game. They could be much better implemented.