Proc systems are so annoying. please do away with them forever

[Anewie]

TBH, everyone is sick of proc systems. Please keep them out of the toau revamp.

[Alhanelem]

They're not going to do away with the existing ones but they have already said that they will not be using this system on every new piece of content in the future.

[RAIST]

idk... sort of on the fence about it. Having a list of things you can do to ramp up the drop rate vs. the old 1/100 chance of getting the item drop.....at least you have the option to proc or not and take your chances with the lower drop rates. That is, providing they don't make it a REQUIREMENT that you proc to get the item to drop.

[Koren]

Are you suggesting a new system in place or saying you'd prefer going back to low droprates we can do nothing about except throw the dice over and over? Granted VW appears to be the second choice anyway, but both Abyssea and Dynamis proc systems are beneficial.

When the proc system was first introduced, we all loved it. We had a method to increase our drops under our own control for once and it brought jobs that were once unneeded back into a group setting. But as we got used to the system, figured out its pattern and got stronger the thinking changed from "proccing increases drops" to "not proccing decreases drops".

I agree that for many of us the problem isn't killing a NM or random mob, it's killing a mob before getting it to proc, and in some cases having the job there to get the wanted proc.

A lot of people will probably come here and agree to get rid of the proc system because it's annoying or makes them have to slow down. They say that in the belief that the drops should stay at the high drop level without having to do anything extra.

I prefer to keep the proc system provided we are in turn rewarded from the extra effort i.e. not VW. In abyssea we can spend about 2x the time on a particular fight to get 3-4x the drops. Dynamis we can get 3-4 coins to drop per fight rather than just 1 every 4-5 fights. That's not saying proccing doesn't have its flaws. Indeed many of us can just charge through a fight easily and proccing does slow us down as we try to find what works. It makes us pick certain jobs just for the purpose of getting procs ignoring any amount of gear or skill, and ignore others because they don't have the abilities we need. If you don't have a proccing job for the fight, you more or less are considered to have wasted your time.

Personally, I think that the idea of proccing should be focused less on the drops and more on the actions of the fight. A dragon starts flying and you pull it down with Jump or Stone (throw a big rock at it). Keeping Gravity on it may prevent it from flying at all. Casting Water or Ice spells cools it so it cannot breathe fire but casting a Fire based spell or WS may cause it to become more powerful. Slashing WS may give an Attack Down effect on a player (bladed weapon against a hard surface) but blunt WS is unaffected. Ranged attacks may cause less enmity, but a Skillchain could put the closing player at the top of the hate list. Things like that. If your group is unable to kill it normally, there are methods to weaken it. If your group can, well they don't need to waste their time.

I'm not sure about how to deal with drops themselves. Trading more items at once for a harder fight like with a few fights in Sea. Having special items only for the purpose of increasing drops like in VW in theory. Things like moon phase or day would just create bottlenecks with everyone there at the same time.

[Mirabelle]

Personally like the proc system. Being able to have some control over drop rates rather relying solely on the vagaries of TH is a boon IMO. It also leads to increased communication during the fight as party members cover the various proc options, announce proc's needed, etc. Gives a greater sense of collaboration to a fight.

Disadvantage has always been the balance which has lead to a number of jobs being favored. But that really has been a problem with FFXI all the way along even before proc systems. Zergs always favored heavy DD, BRDS and WHMS. Kiting strategies favored ranged attackers and PLD's. Meripos favored BRD/COR/SAM/RDM parties. No matter the task, playerbase will cherry pick jobs that make it easier (then of course will complain that nothing is hard anymore).

Admittedly, having proc system on Aby, VW and Dynamis is enough for now. Hopefully SE can be equally creative with other battle systems to make fights interesting.

[Sparthos]

Time to go back to 'zerg everything!' gaiz.

[Meyi]

I like the proc system of Abyssea. Drops were meh without procs, but possible. Procs just made the drops all the more delicious.

Dynamis is good too, but if you fail to proc it's a waste of a kill.

I think player interaction with the monster resulting in more loot is always a positive thing.

[Anewie]

Are you suggesting a new system in place or saying you'd prefer going back to low droprates we can do nothing about except throw the dice over and over? Granted VW appears to be the second choice anyway, but both Abyssea and Dynamis proc systems are beneficial.

When the proc system was first introduced, we all loved it. We had a method to increase our drops under our own control for once and it brought jobs that were once unneeded back into a group setting. But as we got used to the system, figured out its pattern and got stronger the thinking changed from "proccing increases drops" to "not proccing decreases drops".

I agree that for many of us the problem isn't killing a NM or random mob, it's killing a mob before getting it to proc, and in some cases having the job there to get the wanted proc.

A lot of people will probably come here and agree to get rid of the proc system because it's annoying or makes them have to slow down. They say that in the belief that the drops should stay at the high drop level without having to do anything extra.

I prefer to keep the proc system provided we are in turn rewarded from the extra effort i.e. not VW. In abyssea we can spend about 2x the time on a particular fight to get 3-4x the drops. Dynamis we can get 3-4 coins to drop per fight rather than just 1 every 4-5 fights. That's not saying proccing doesn't have its flaws. Indeed many of us can just charge through a fight easily and proccing does slow us down as we try to find what works. It makes us pick certain jobs just for the purpose of getting procs ignoring any amount of gear or skill, and ignore others because they don't have the abilities we need. If you don't have a proccing job for the fight, you more or less are considered to have wasted your time.

Personally, I think that the idea of proccing should be focused less on the drops and more on the actions of the fight. A dragon starts flying and you pull it down with Jump or Stone (throw a big rock at it). Keeping Gravity on it may prevent it from flying at all. Casting Water or Ice spells cools it so it cannot breathe fire but casting a Fire based spell or WS may cause it to become more powerful. Slashing WS may give an Attack Down effect on a player (bladed weapon against a hard surface) but blunt WS is unaffected. Ranged attacks may cause less enmity, but a Skillchain could put the closing player at the top of the hate list. Things like that. If your group is unable to kill it normally, there are methods to weaken it. If your group can, well they don't need to waste their time.

I'm not sure about how to deal with drops themselves. Trading more items at once for a harder fight like with a few fights in Sea. Having special items only for the purpose of increasing drops like in VW in theory. Things like moon phase or day would just create bottlenecks with everyone there at the same time.

I meant, Please do not add a PROC SYSTEM to events in the future, if its in regards to endgame content. It's fine in abyssea, I actually like it there, and although it's annoying as HECK in voidwatch, I can tolerate that too. As for dynamis.. No comment...

But please no more proc systems for new endgame events. I myself, do not wanna see proc systems in dungeon crawling, the last stand or any toau revamp. This includes einherjar and salvage revamps obviously (OMG THAT WOULD BE ANNOYING)

[Malamasala]

I'm sick and tired of damage myself. It was good dealing damage 2003, and it is good 2012. We need content that doesn't rely on damage these days.

I would suggest triggers, but it would be a little rude considering the topic at hand.

[Ryce]

I wouldn't mind procs in new/revamped content, but they need to be smarter about it. The idea of 1 weapon skill being the trigger needed is horrible. If you don't have a player with the appropriate job/weapon/skill, you're SOL. Worse, it's a difficult pop to farm, so you hold the mob for 10 mins while someone warps, changes job, buys a weapon from the AH, makes his way back to the battle, TPs up, uses WS (dirty), TPs up again, uses WS to proc.

I'd like to see procs that either:

1. Are more broad (like Blue, not Yellow/Red) and change as the battle goes on. Maybe the WS type changes with each WS performed...

2. Proc by landing any WS at the appropriate time (during casting, immediately after casting, etc).

3. Promote skill chains. Maybe the SC is the proc instead of the WS. Better yet, maybe the MB is the proc.

4. Procs are cumulative (like VW) but based on the total WS/MB damage inflicted. Again, promoting skill chains and magic bursts.

[Alhanelem]

Time to go back to 'zerg everything!' gaiz.
Because jerking off for a few minutes to grab that dangling carrot and THEN zerging it is so much better. It's the lamest way of increasing a fight's length.

You want to stop zerging? Let monsters be able to get over 300% TP. Then, the faster the monster gets hit, the more powerful its TP moves will be with no limitation.Zerg this mosnter and he'll do 10k AoE TP moves. Take it slow and they'll only do 1k.

[Anewie]

Because jerking off for a few minutes to grab that dangling carrot and THEN zerging it is so much better. It's the lamest way of increasing a fight's length.

You want to stop zerging? Let monsters be able to get over 300% TP. Then, the faster the monster gets hit, the more powerful its TP moves will be with no limitation.Zerg this mosnter and he'll do 10k AoE TP moves. Take it slow and they'll only do 1k.

Sparthos is delusional. I don't even respond anymore.
I can't with people who are so quick to disagree without thinking about it first. The proc system didnt change zerging. . . . .

[Alhanelem]

That person is delusional. I don't even respond anymore.You just did.

What exactly is "delusional" about what I have written? Why is "That guy is delisonal" all you're able to say? You don't seem to have any rationale for anything you post.


The proc system didnt change zerging. . . . . It DID change zerging, as far as having to hold back and do nothing while you wait for procs to be triggered. Procing was created to slow down fights. It does so, but in a very cheap and silly way.

If you dont want to respond to someone, then put them on your block list so you don't have to read it.


I myself, do not wanna see proc systems in dungeon crawling, the last stand or any toau revamp. This includes einherjar and salvage revamps obviously (OMG THAT WOULD BE ANNOYING)As I already posted before, SE already stated that they're not planning on doing that.

[Anewie]

You just did.

What exactly is "delusional" about what I have written? Why is "That guy is delisonal" all you're able to say? You don't seem to have any rationale for anything you post.

It DID change zerging, as far as having to hold back and do nothing while you wait for procs to be triggered. Procing was created to slow down fights. It does so, but in a very cheap and silly way.

If you dont want to respond to someone, then put them on your block list so you don't have to read it.

As I already posted before, SE already stated that they're not planning on doing that.

I was talking about Sparthos.. Not you...

/facepalm

What you said pretty much sums up everything I said. . . .

[Kaisha]

I'd rather they do away with mobs that close to one-shots anything that isn't using a Fanatic's Drink, a full PDT/MDT set, or is a PLD.

Seems to be the trend with modern VW, and Walk of Echoes(hence Walk of Avatars).

[Greatguardian]

Because jerking off for a few minutes to grab that dangling carrot and THEN zerging it is so much better. It's the lamest way of increasing a fight's length.

You want to stop zerging? Let monsters be able to get over 300% TP. Then, the faster the monster gets hit, the more powerful its TP moves will be with no limitation.Zerg this mosnter and he'll do 10k AoE TP moves. Take it slow and they'll only do 1k.

Most monsters worth fighting have auto-regain or auto-TP anyways so this is irrelevant.

SE already said they won't be adding proc systems to "all new content", which is the best any of us is going to get at this stage of the game.

I give this thread 5, maybe 10 pages before Anewie starts posting more Britney Spears memes and spamming UMADBRO again like their last thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18923-Wheres-the-evidence-Abyssea-revived-FFXI). Benihana is either the same person or her husband, it doesn't really matter which because their posting habits are near identical.

[Alhanelem]

Most monsters worth fighting have auto-regain or auto-TP anyways so this is irrelevant.It's not irrelevant because TP caps at 300%. I'm saying let it go higher- make the TP moves even worse.

[Greatguardian]

It's not irrelevant because TP caps at 300%. I'm saying let it go higher- make the TP moves even worse.

If the monsters have Auto-TP/Auto-Regain, then player-fed TP is completely irrelevant to how much damage they're doing. That's how most higher level NMs are right now. It doesn't matter if you have 1 PLD on the NM or 18 Ukons, it will TP at the same rate because it gets Auto/Infini-TP

[Alhanelem]

If the monsters have Auto-TP/Auto-Regain, then player-fed TP is completely irrelevant to how much damage they're doing. That's how most higher level NMs are right now. It doesn't matter if you have 1 PLD on the NM or 18 Ukons, it will TP at the same rate because it gets Auto/Infini-TP
I understand this- That's why I'm saying remove the 300% cap from such monsters. The amount of TP gained between one TP move and the next will be larger, the move will be more devistating, and it will thusly discourage such behavior. Since the monster is going to TP at the same rate regardless, may as well make the attacks stronger until the rate of giving TP decreases.

Not that many NMs TP at the fastest possible rate when only one or a few people are attacking.

[Anewie]

Most monsters worth fighting have auto-regain or auto-TP anyways so this is irrelevant.

SE already said they won't be adding proc systems to "all new content", which is the best any of us is going to get at this stage of the game.

I give this thread 5, maybe 10 pages before Anewie starts posting more Britney Spears memes and spamming UMADBRO again like their last thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18923-Wheres-the-evidence-Abyssea-revived-FFXI). Benihana is either the same person or her husband, it doesn't really matter which because their posting habits are near identical.

I give this thread all of five replies before GG comes in actin all mad about me calling him out on his whining in another thread. One that was posted like a week ago? Wow. And yeah, You are still mad about it. Why you're even bringing it up again in a thread about freakin proc systems is quite obvious.

[Greatguardian]

I understand this- That's why I'm saying remove the 300% cap from such monsters. The amount of TP gained between one TP move and the next will be larger, the move will be more devistating, and it will thusly discourage such behavior. Since the monster is going to TP at the same rate regardless, may as well make the attacks stronger until the rate of giving TP decreases.

Not that many NMs TP at the fastest possible rate when only one or a few people are attacking.

Honestly, these are the sorts of things that encourage zerging though. When NMs deal monstrous AoE damage, the most effective strategy is almost always CSS/Fanatic's and zerging it before it can kill you. Trying to put larger emphasis on NM's offensive capabilities only makes zerging more attractive.

[Alhanelem]

Honestly, these are the sorts of things that encourage zerging though. When NMs deal monstrous AoE damage, the most effective strategy is almost always CSS/Fanatic's and zerging it before it can kill you. Trying to put larger emphasis on NM's offensive capabilities only makes zerging more attractive.
Even though this is illogical, since taking it slower would/should result in a higher probability of success.
Immunity to stun and lack of Fanatics (Not something typically available outside of special events anyway) can address the easiest mitigation tactics.

[Greatguardian]

Even though this is illogical, since taking it slower would/should result in a higher probability of success.

That's not true. The longer an enemy is alive, the more opportunities it has to kill/wipe you. Why do you think zerging became the only reliable way to kill many things in the first place?

Damage mitigation in FFXI is really, really poorly designed. You only have a few moves capable of severely reducing damage taken, all of which only last short periods of time. Perfect Defense, Chainspell Stun, and Fanatic's Drinks don't last forever - but they will protect you while they're up. If an NM is going to deal 32490578346097 damage to you, you are always always always best off just using PD/Fanatic's/CSS and zerging the crap out of it.

What's the difference between a 300% TP move, a 500% TP move, and a 50,000% TP move? If a 300% TP move will kill you, then a 50,000% TP move will still kill you - the difference is how much damage you're able to deal before the 50,000% TP move hits you.

Edit: Perfect Defense, then. They can't make monsters "immune" to that.

[Anewie]

Only place i am against the proc system is in dynamis. unlike abys and voidwatch, dynamis is always tiresome.

[MojoJojo]

Only place i am against the proc system is in dynamis. unlike abys and voidwatch, dynamis is always tiresome.

Not to really bitch, but perhaps the original post should have stated that. And not "everyone" is against it. I know i'm not. As stated before, I actually like being able to control drop rates (to some extent) rather than rely on the mysterious TH. Snag a Thief with max TH and you can still struggle to get anything.....

I would probably have an issue with the proc system in VW....where it seems to be fairly pointless.

[Anewie]

Not to really bitch, but perhaps the original post should have stated that. And not "everyone" is against it. I know i'm not. As stated before, I actually like being able to control drop rates (to some extent) rather than rely on the mysterious TH. Snag a Thief with max TH and you can still struggle to get anything.....

I would probably have an issue with the proc system in VW....where it seems to be fairly pointless.

it was a breathe of fresh air in abys. then vw chap 1, then dynamis... i mean.. like... yeah.. No more please.

[Sparthos]

Because jerking off for a few minutes to grab that dangling carrot and THEN zerging it is so much better. It's the lamest way of increasing a fight's length.

You want to stop zerging? Let monsters be able to get over 300% TP. Then, the faster the monster gets hit, the more powerful its TP moves will be with no limitation.Zerg this mosnter and he'll do 10k AoE TP moves. Take it slow and they'll only do 1k.

You realize for better or worse that Abyssea forced players to bring certain jobs into zone if they wanted drops right? Prior to this it was WAR WHM RDM BRD COR SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM THF, CS stun, zerg, jerk off to parses or drops.

We may not like the current proc systems but if SE really wants certain jobs to see the light of day, they'll need to use more systems that force people to bring certain classes or we'll be back to the same 2 DD that snag the top tier, buffers and heals.

It doesn't need to be Voidwatch procs but something similar suffices.

Your idea of mobs spamming TP does what? Promotes use of RNG and current scherzo rotations which have become the rage since HNM became 'spam one dangerous rapeface TP move repeatedly'. Even in the oldschool tank on the HNM onry you'll be promoting only a handful of DD that are capable of long-range damage.

If SE wants to promote class diversity then an event where a certain job is required to enter would be one such idea. A run where you NEED a THF to open doors via picked locks, a run where you NEED a WAR and all obstacle mobs are WAR-themed (double attack, MS effect in play), a run where you NEED a RDM where target mobs all have permanent Quick Magic effect or a run where you NEED a BST and target mobs have pets.

This gets certain jobs feet in the door if they aren't ideal and forces players to adapt to having said job in play. Spread out loot in such a manner that you can't just choose the 'easiest' run and you've got yourself an event.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

TBH, everyone is sick of proc systems. Please keep them out of the toau revamp.You do realize they that added these proc systems to the game because all of you pissed and moaned about "not being usefull" in abyssea right? You asked this and you go it. You made your bed, now lay in it.

[Alhanelem]

You realize for better or worse that Abyssea forced players to bring certain jobs into zone if they wanted drops right? Prior to this it was WAR WHM RDM BRD COR SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM SAM THF, CS stun, zerg, jerk off to parses or drops.Uhm... yeah, sorry but Abyssea is no better than what you described. WAR covers almost all weaponskill procs easily. You need a few mages for yellow but they're for the most part the ones already most likely to be there anyway. BLU is the only exception really. Other jobs don't really show up except in EXP alliances.

[Sparthos]

Uhm... yeah, sorry but Abyssea is no better than what you described. WAR covers almost all weaponskill procs easily. You need a few mages for yellow but they're for the most part the ones already most likely to be there anyway. BLU is the only exception really. Other jobs don't really show up except in EXP alliances.

Which is why Voidwatch expanded on the procs in Abyssea.

OP wants to throw out proc systems.

Guess where the game is going with no procs?

[Greatguardian]

Uhm... yeah, sorry but Abyssea is no better than what you described. WAR covers almost all weaponskill procs easily. You need a few mages for yellow but they're for the most part the ones already most likely to be there anyway. BLU is the only exception really. Other jobs don't really show up except in EXP alliances.

War Nin Mnk Blm Whm Blu is better than Sam Brd Rdm by a factor of 2. Voidwatch took that even further before people figured out that Blue light was worthless.

FFXI Damage and Enmity mechanics are so poorly conceived for Endgame that there's really nothing they'll ever be able to do about "making every job wanted", honestly.

On top of that, there are 20 jobs and 18 slots in an alliance. Requiring 1 job at random for anything in an event means even taking an alliance of completely unique jobs means that you could skill be screwed, and requiring 1 fixed job for certain events just means people will take that one job plus whatever is best.

SE would be better off making more events where combat is not the only road to success.

If you want NMs to slow down and be taken more strategically, they'd need to lower their offensive capabilities, increase their defensive capabilities, and vastly improve combat AI. Damage absorbs, stances, AI changes if people screw up. This will mean people will need to pay attention and fewer melees splurging on the NM would be safer unless you're with a really good group.

[Alhanelem]

Which is why Voidwatch expanded on the procs in Abyssea.

OP wants to throw out proc systems.

Guess where the game is going with no procs?
I want them to throw out proc systems too. It's a very poor way to address zerging, and really didn't do much to reduce pigenholing of job selection.

[detlef]

Only place i am against the proc system is in dynamis. unlike abys and voidwatch, dynamis is always tiresome.Dynamis has to have procs. Otherwise you'd have people pulling humongous amounts of mobs and cleaving them.

[Meyi]

If SE wants to promote class diversity then an event where a certain job is required to enter would be one such idea. A run where you NEED a THF to open doors via picked locks, a run where you NEED a WAR and all obstacle mobs are WAR-themed (double attack, MS effect in play), a run where you NEED a RDM where target mobs all have permanent Quick Magic effect or a run where you NEED a BST and target mobs have pets.

This gets certain jobs feet in the door if they aren't ideal and forces players to adapt to having said job in play. Spread out loot in such a manner that you can't just choose the 'easiest' run and you've got yourself an event.

The only downfall to this is when people want to go with friends but said group of friends doesn't have the jobs needed to participate. At least in Abyssea and Dynamis (I've yet to do Voidwatch so I can't speak about it yet) any job -can- come, just procs might be lower than anticipated.

I'd like to see an event where the number of participants was the determining factor in drops. Not their job per se, but the actions they added to the battle that could benefit the group at the end. Mmm, perhaps a perfectly timed nuke from a black mage, or a magnificent Cure from the white mage.

Most importantly something that changes on a constant basis so that the playerbase doesn't become bored once it grasps the concept.

[Shadowsong]

TBH, everyone is sick of proc systems. Please keep them out of the toau revamp.

I, for one, do not like it when other people speak for me. Not only do I enjoy procs, but I would not mind if they were included in every single thing added into the future.

You are not special enough to speak for anyone besides yourself. Maybe people would be more open to you if you didn't act like king of the world.

[wish12oz]

idk... sort of on the fence about it. Having a list of things you can do to ramp up the drop rate vs. the old 1/100 chance of getting the item drop.....at least you have the option to proc or not and take your chances with the lower drop rates. That is, providing they don't make it a REQUIREMENT that you proc to get the item to drop.

Or we could get that awesome voidwatch system where if you dont proc, you get nothing, and if you do proc... you still get nothing.

[Shadowsong]

Or we could get that awesome voidwatch system where if you dont proc, you get nothing, and if you do proc... your mule gets the drop.

fixed
0123456789

[Unleashhell]

TBH, everyone is sick of proc systems. Please keep them out of the toau revamp.

You guys need to stop posting stuff that has already been discussed months ago. Please scroll through the forums before posting. I posted this already and got mod feedback.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17378-Einherjar-Limbus-Nyzul-Isle-Salvage-No-More-Proc-Systems!!

[echoelman]

Guess where the game is going with no procs?

Engaging battles against enemies that do not utilize timesinks to artificially increase difficulty, reward players for bringing any sensible combination of Support/DD/Utility jobs, and are set in the context of a points-for-loot system?

Oh right, this is a a decade-old MMO where minor updates to issues that should have never existed, such as "You will no longer lose items when paralyzed", are a godsend.

I think the overarching problem is that the game kinda works with 4-6 man parties against single, powerful enemies, but pitting 18 people against one or two walls of HP is just stupid. Creating a series of fights against a single target and slapping on the "Alliance Content!" label is the lazy alternative to designing fights against several active threats that play well with the strengths and weaknesses of most jobs.

[Sparthos]

Engaging battles against enemies that do not utilize timesinks to artificially increase difficulty, reward players for bringing any sensible combination of Support/DD/Utility jobs, and are set in the context of a points-for-loot system?

Oh right, this is a a decade-old MMO where minor updates to issues that should have never existed, such as "You will no longer lose items when paralyzed", are a godsend.

I think the overarching problem is that the game kinda works with 4-6 man parties against single, powerful enemies, but pitting 18 people against one or two walls of HP is just stupid. Creating a series of fights against a single target and slapping on the "Alliance Content!" label is the lazy alternative to designing fights against several active threats that play well with the strengths and weaknesses of most jobs.

What qualifies as 'engaging'? That's a pretty ambiguous term which can mean damn near anything.

In FFXI oft means 'do i get loot' and if the monster doesn't have defenses it becomes a DD burn which is partly why procs were designed to 'artificially draw out' battles. 'Sensible DD/utility/support jobs'? You mean the top 1-2 DD and your standard support line because without those timesinks or roadblocks, the game naturally liquifies into stun, run, gun and no fun.

Like it or not, content needs some elements of a time sink to make certain classes viable. No one is ever going to call upon a PUP unless the content dictates you NEED a PUP to show up or you can't obtain loot. Is it heavy handed? Yup, but that's how you change the mentality the base has with regards to the job pyramid.

It doesn't mean the content can't be fun but the idea that a mythical 'challenging' monster with no procs is going to naturally work out to jobs like PUP THF DRG BST PLD or RDM being asked to show up isn't going to happen. If it's too easy, you wind up with the above scenario (stun and gun) and if it's too hard you get whining on the boards, a singular strategy that takes hold (throw SMNs at it!) and almost zero variance among the mainstream base. Look at how fast the recent genkai went from any job to 'throw bsts at it' or 'zerg is the ONLY way to win'.

More assault-style content where you need to use unique aspects of a certain class would go a long way in promoting job variety. An event where you need a RDMs enfeebles to cause monsters to react in a certain way relevant to reaching the goal, a battle where a Beastmasters choice of pet affects the target monster that appears or an event where the goal is simply to withstand a barrage of attacks within X time period.

I agree that Voidwatch is pretty lazily thrown together but that is because of the declining resources this game is getting from the powers that be. Ideally your alliance content would have proper adds, a WoE style slog through trash mobs to reach the boss and tactical play such as avoiding floor traps, constant repositioning or responding to varying modes or stances.

[Yarly]

TBH, everyone is sick of proc systems. Please keep them out of the toau revamp.

You're a terrible person trying to lie to the SE developers. I LOVE the proc system and I hope it's there to stay.

There's nothing worse than to have people tell me I'm useless for a fight because my job is not good.

These proc systems allow everyone to be useful and I hope they add them to everything in the future to promote teamplay and fun.

[Nala]

idk... sort of on the fence about it. Having a list of things you can do to ramp up the drop rate vs. the old 1/100 chance of getting the item drop.....at least you have the option to proc or not and take your chances with the lower drop rates. That is, providing they don't make it a REQUIREMENT that you proc to get the item to drop.

even with capped lights you have less then 1% chance to get what you want from VW, even worse that there is no control over who the drops go to so really you have a 1/18 shot of that 1% being in your box, so what chance at lower drop rates are you talking about?

[RAIST]

even with capped lights you have less then 1% chance to get what you want from VW, even worse that there is no control over who the drops go to so really you have a 1/18 shot of that 1% being in your box, so what chance at lower drop rates are you talking about?

It was meant more in the general sense of drop rates, not specifically VW. geesh. Old system vs proc system---you know the history... people camping an NM for days/weeks/months and not getting the drop.

The old system is almost literally like rolling dice--your previous results are not removed from the pool like drawing a card from the deck....rather, the card is put back in the deck and then it gets reshuffled. The proc system can operate in various ways. Using the cards scenario, it could be stacking the deck with more winning cards (say, all face cards instead lf just the one-eyed Jacks), or reducing the size of the deck. With the dice scenario, it could switch to a different die combination (2d6 vs 1d12), directly altering the result with a flat amount (say 1d20 +5), or lowering the threshold for a winning role (instead of 18+, it is now 15+ for a winning roll). There are other possible tweaks, those are just a few ideas off the cuff. So long as the method gives you a better chance at a win (no matter how slight or drastic it may be, it IS an improvement to your chances), it is STILL better than no way of altering it at all. They are still using the same basic theory to find the result, you just get either a wider winning range or a narrower range altogether for the choice drops.

The problem with VW is likely due to either a shoddy result set (the popular items have a ridiculously narrow range for a win), or the adjustment made to the system isn't as strong as it is with Abyssea.

[Xantavia]

I did like the way they did the proc system in dynamis. It was broad enough (WS, magic, JA) that with a group of friends everybody could come as the job they wanted and chances are one of them could cover the right trigger.

[Karbuncle]

I enjoy the proc system, If they do it in moderation, Not just slop it on everything.

It adds SLIGHTLY more to a fight than pop > Blow the f**k up. Slightly. Not much.

[echoelman]

What qualifies as 'engaging'? That's a pretty ambiguous term which can mean damn near anything.

You're right. I suppose I could clarify and say "a battle system in which zerging is not the optimal strategy and not because it is limited by proc systems", but that's still pretty vague. Again, probably because 18 vs. 1 battles simply don't work in the game's current framework.


Ideally your alliance content would have proper adds, a WoE style slog through trash mobs to reach the boss and tactical play such as avoiding floor traps, constant repositioning or responding to varying modes or stances.

Sign me up!

[Nynja]

idk... sort of on the fence about it. Having a list of things you can do to ramp up the drop rate vs. the old 1/100 chance of getting the item drop.....at least you have the option to proc or not and take your chances with the lower drop rates. That is, providing they don't make it a REQUIREMENT that you proc to get the item to drop.

Id rather know getting proc gives me a 50% chance instead of landing 30 procs on any VW NM, capping blue/red, and still having a sub-1% drop rate on the rare items.


I did like the way they did the proc system in dynamis. It was broad enough (WS, magic, JA) that with a group of friends everybody could come as the job they wanted and chances are one of them could cover the right trigger.

Untill you realize the procrate of MA/WS is so absurdly low, everyone comes /dnc and just targets JA mobs.

[Alhanelem]

You're a terrible person trying to lie to the SE developers. I LOVE the proc system and I hope it's there to stay.

There's nothing worse than to have people tell me I'm useless for a fight because my job is not good.

These proc systems allow everyone to be useful and I hope they add them to everything in the future to promote teamplay and fun.So you'd rather be told that you're useful for 30 seconds because they need you to use one weapon skill or job ability to proc, and not for anything else your job is really capable of? Know what I do on summoner in an abyssea LS event? use one sunburst or rock crusher and then just sit there and maybe throw one or two cures while the top three bandwagon jobs kill the NM- Any of several other jobs could have done the same thing. Hell, I could have done it on SCH too. Do they need my buffs? No. Do they want my BP Rages? No. All they want from me is the proc. I don't call that being useful, nor do I call it "promoting teamplay."

[Karbuncle]

So you'd rather be told that you're useful for 30 seconds because they need you to use one weapon skill or job ability to proc, and not for anything else your job is really capable of? Know what I do on summoner in an abyssea LS event? use one sunburst or rock crusher and then just sit there and maybe throw one or two cures while the top three bandwagon jobs kill the NM- Any of several other jobs could have done the same thing. Hell, I could have done it on SCH too. Do they need my buffs? No. Do they want my BP Rages? No. All they want from me is the proc. I don't call that being useful, nor do I call it "promoting teamplay."

I think you argue just for the sake of arguing at this point.

[darkhorror]

What I would like to see is a change in the proc system. I like increased drop rates so that procing is really useful. I just don't like how the proc's are setup where you just have to land some random stupid ability, ws,... Seems like they could figure out a better way to get more interesting proc system.

[Yarly]

I think you argue just for the sake of arguing at this point.

I agree with Karbuncle, why are you even posting here Alhahalnlm? Go back to your GE forums.

[Alhanelem]

I think you argue just for the sake of arguing at this point.
You think incorrectly. I state my opinion on a matter because I have one. It's not even intended to be an "argument," it's intended to be "discussion." But hey, go ahead, keep picking on me. If I support something, I'm going to say so. If I don't support something, I'm going to say so. I don't enjoy the arguing part and I don't do it just for the hell of it.


I agree with Karbuncle, why are you even posting here Alhahalnlm? Go back to your GE forums.With such a useful, meaningful, carefully constructed post, one might ask you the same question. If you hate someone and don't want to see what they have to say, you have a blacklist. Use it. THe fact that you don't and proceed to comment and berate on someone tells me that you enjoy doing this sort of thing. I could be mistaken though. I'm not going to outright assume it.

Seriously. If the only thing you can add to a thread is a complaint about some other user posting, then just do yourself and everyone else around you a favor and just blacklist them and/or don't post it. It might not be as much fun, but at least then you don't contribute to the "crapping up" (as some people have put it) of the thread.

[darkhorror]

How about a proc system where every time you proc the mob gets stronger up to a point. The mob is easier to kill without proc's but drop rate is worse. With full proc the mob is a good bit tougher but gives better drops.

Or something like it gives you a couple options for objectives at the start of the fight. Something that gives a wide range of usefull jobs, but is something a little more interesting than just use certain ability. Where you work towards the objective through out the fight.

[Malamasala]

So you'd rather be told that you're useful for 30 seconds because they need you to use one weapon skill or job ability to proc, and not for anything else your job is really capable of? Know what I do on summoner in an abyssea LS event? use one sunburst or rock crusher and then just sit there and maybe throw one or two cures while the top three bandwagon jobs kill the NM- Any of several other jobs could have done the same thing. Hell, I could have done it on SCH too. Do they need my buffs? No. Do they want my BP Rages? No. All they want from me is the proc. I don't call that being useful, nor do I call it "promoting teamplay."

So? If this was the old days you'd only toss cures. It is a step in the right direction, even if SMN always needed a complete do-over.

[Ilax]

I like the PROC system when it come to NM, but for event like dynamis, its SUX, is reason #1 i never do dynamis anymore, i find that so retard that you have to torture a damn mob for 5 min long when you could have destroy it in 1 WS.

Let resume what Dynamis mean nowday... BST/DNC + THF/DNC Let hope SE learn about it and not turn salvage/nyzle the same way.

For VW trigger, you can thanks DEV they have trigger system, or i know a tons of JOB that ppl would never invite as they DMG output are useless.

[Alerith]

I demand Skillchain and Magic Burst procs.

"The fiend appears to be weak to high level skillchains" (Light/Dark)
"The fiend appears to be weak to mid level skillchains" (Level 2)
"The fiend appears to be weak to low level skillchains" (Level 1)
"The fiend appears to be weak to augmented elemental magic!" (Magic Burst)

Have fun you abyssea burned tools!

[LeaderofAtlantis]

They need to start putting more thought into their battle systems. Take a battle area like Qu'Bia Arena for example.

You have 2 tunnels that shoot off to the left or right of the main tunnel that gets you to the main arena. Have a creature in the main arena that has to be engaged first, but has -95-99% dmg taken at the start. After maybe 1% of its health is removed, it generates other creatures in these 2 smaller rooms that must be attacked in order to begin to reduce this amount. Give them high defense and they only appear for a short time, but as they take more damage with each appearance, you begin to lower the defense of the main boss.

Look, rip that idea apart, fine, but if you read 90% of the posts on these forums, it's all about "My job can't deal 9,999 dmg to X creature - why SE!?" or something like that, so giving us a twist (the proc system) on zerging is about all they feel like they can do to appease us, the player base.

[Alhanelem]

I demand Skillchain and Magic Burst procs.

"The fiend appears to be weak to high level skillchains" (Light/Dark)
"The fiend appears to be weak to mid level skillchains" (Level 2)
"The fiend appears to be weak to low level skillchains" (Level 1)
"The fiend appears to be weak to augmented elemental magic!" (Magic Burst)

Have fun you abyssea burned tools!
So wait, you want procs that require you to kill the mob faster, so that in essence you have *less* chance of proccing them than the already existing procs? great idea.

Also, just because someone "abyssea burned" doesn't mean they don't know what a skillcain or magic burst is. Many people who have done it have leveled up something from before abyssea even existed.

Fights should be fun and challenging because of the fight itself, not because of a generic system that forces us to act one way on all mobs that use it vs the way on all mobs that don't.

[Shadowsong]

I demand Skillchain and Magic Burst procs.
...Have fun you abyssea burned tools!

Like it doesn't take about 15 minutes to learn how to Skillchain. People really never needed 5 months of practice on Robber Crabs back in the day, we were just forced to do it lol

That said, I wouldn't mind SC and MB procs

edit: Poster above me hit a point. Mobs would have to have a little more survivability for these procs. Perhaps a weaker offensive/stronger defensive HNM, like Tiamat and shit was. Too much of this high offensive stuff makes zerging the real only option.

[Vold]

There are issues to solve that can be solved. It would be a mistake to abandon the proc system idea in general. Sure SE didn't get it perfect this first time around but how bout yo' ass develop a MMO and let us know how you do your first time with an idea. It needs to be refined so people aren't sitting on their ass waiting. Procs need to be on the fly and not so much a necessity. It would also be helpful if monsters weren't absolute murder so people could actually be at the front lines. Players can stop holding back and being bored.

No matter what you do with your game, ensure the people playing are not bored. If people are bored then you're doing something wrong. Ensure they aren't standing by waiting for a proc THEN you can do whatever you feel is necessary so that there is at least some possibility of losing, aka challenge. They used to be able to do this stuff. It was called "The Entire Game Before Abyssea"

[Sparthos]

You realize without procs they'll have to come up with something new to promote job variety else it's going to become what 75 endgame was in a hurry with the same 6-7 jobs running down everything.

I mean they could do something like restrict the type of weapons used in a battle ('slashing weapons will only hurt this HNM') but is SE going to put in that level of effort to create events specific jobs shine in? Doubtful.

[Saefinn]

If you're gonna have a proc system at least make it balanced. The one thing I disliked with Abyssea was that my preferred jobs weren't the best choices for proccing, in fact I was only ever a healer, but on my SCH, which was a struggle outside of my Aby LS(though I would prefer to have done Scholarly things, not to be a WHM wannabe). I did end up levelling MNK though, but around then I got pretty sick of Aby.

In my mind, the jobs/classes/roles in a game should be balanced enough so people are able to make their choices based on their preferences not around a pre-defined set-up that makes other jobs/classes/roles redundant. Granted, I could proc on my jobs, but if went looking for a group as a SCH I'd be asked if I had a BLM and if I went looking on my DRK I'd be asked if I had a WAR.

I can't wait to do VW now that I've come back, mainly because I love COR. :P If we had a sense of balance, I wouldn't mind the proc system, it adds one more element to the fight to make it interesting, but of course I'd like to see the old content not to have the proc system forced on it, I mean some people still like the old content working the way it does and I wouldn't want the proc system to spoil it for them.

[Shadowsong]

Back in the day, I felt a sense of pride changing to the job my LS needed at the time. I leveled WHM and RNG for the express purpose of helping my LS. Did I like the jobs? No, but who cares? It's to help the LS. Did I particularly enjoy going WHM for 3+ years in sky when I would have rather been a melee or something? No, but did i enjoy actually WINNING these fights? Yes

I did not care that I was not able to go my preferred job becuase I was actually being useful instead of being a douche.

I don't get where this sentimate of "make all jobs the same" comes from. I prefer playing PLD and NIN, does that mean I won't change to WHM or RDM at an event? No, I'll change into whatever people need. I guess I find the fun in actually completeing objectives and moving towards goals, rather than poking things with Polearms or Scythes

If there is a currently overpowered job, why not level it and have fun with it while it is? Every job has it's moment in the sun, yet people seem to go flying off the handle when it's not THEIR job being pampered

[Alhanelem]

I don't get where this sentimate of "make all jobs the same" comes from. I prefer playing PLD and NIN, does that mean I won't change to WHM or RDM at an event? No, I'll change into whatever people need. I guess I find the fun in actually completeing objectives and moving towards goals, rather than poking things with Polearms or Scythes

If there is a currently overpowered job, why not level it and have fun with it while it is? Every job has it's moment in the sun, yet people seem to go flying off the handle when it's not THEIR job being pampered Balanced != the same. We want balance, not identicality (word I made up myself). Jobs do not need to be made identical in order for many of them to be viable in an activity. And note, I said viable, not "the best."

[Shadowsong]

When I wrote "the same", I kinda meant "perfectly balanced". If it doesn't matter if you come DRG, DRK, SAM, WAR, or RNG; why have them be seperate jobs in the first place? Why not have one job named "Damage Dealer"?
I do understand that people have preferences, and that's a good thing.
People need to become realists though, and realize that everything will never be in PERFECT balance, because the jobs are intrinsically different. Because of this, depending on the content certain jobs will shine and others will not. That's the way it should be.

SMN is good in Walk of Echoes. That doesn't mean nerf SMN or buff WoE, it means if you want to do WoE you should level SMN
BST is good in Dynamis. That doesn't mean nerf BST or buff Dynamis, it means if you want to do Dyanmis you should level BST
MNK and WHM are good in Abyssea. That doesn't mean nerf MNK or WHM or buff Abyssea, it means if you want to do Abyssea you should level MNK or WHM

All this whining of one job over the next; just stuff it and wait a few months and things will probably be completely different.

[Alhanelem]

Any sensible combination of jobs (e.g. all core role types are covered) should be at least *useable* in any major event. *useable* does not mean ideal, or the best, but it does mean that most jobs *can* be used in a team to win. This isn't really a MAJOR problem right now, but a few jobs are so overwhelmingly good right now that other jobs are not accepted by the playerbase at large (not even talking about elitists here). It does make things harder to balance when not enough people are able to use various jobs at events for SE to be able to tell where the flaws are in a given jobs' design.

(this doesn't mean "I wanna bring 18 melee scholars with ash staves and win this fight* or anything silly. Remember the word "sensible")

Adjustments should be done in a careful manner. I really don't want to see more "<insert job here> is superpowered, then next update is a pile of crap" stuff, the biggest example of which is The Great Ranger Nerf.

[Shadowsong]

As a first generation NA RNG I hear what you are saying. Buffs/Nerfs such as the 2handed buff and RNG nerf were game changing and should have been changed before release tbh.

I also agree that all jobs should be at least somewhat useful, but I for one get excited when my job of choice gets an event it is overpowered in. Its fun, and I suppose it should be enjoyed while it lasts.

Edit- I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that if each job was perfectly balanced, there would be absolutely ZERO variation in content. What would happen is they would finally get the jobs in balance, and unless content stays EXACTLY the same, the balance will be broken the second new content is released., or even a new mechanic or job ability.

Think about it, if every job was perfectly balanced, EVERY SINGLE event would have to be nearly the same. Moderate offensive strength, moderate defensive strength, easy to predict and handle TP moves and status', and ZERO gimmicks (read: gimmicks as a good thing).

boooooooooooooooooooooring. I find job selection and strategy to be part of the fun. Not a "go whatever you want and do mediocre"

To look at it another way, would you want the staff to have to rebalance 17 other jobs every single time they want to do a small patch to one?