New Weaponskills - Not what was expected

[Unleashhell]

Personally I'm not impressed at all with the new weapon skill choices. I think they look nice but do not perform as well as they should. Sometimes SE hits, and sometimes they miss. Personally I believe this is a miss.

Here is how the new weapon skills should have been done (imo):

New weapon skills should have been job specific.
This would have given each job that completeness factor at level 99. Being we cannot go past 99, why shouldn't we get a level 99 job specific weapon skill?

Modifiers that are better suited for job that use them.
MND on sword... really??? For the most part the modifiers are the norm you would expect for some of the jobs that will use them.

In order to unlock the weapon skill, you would need 8/8 merit upgrades into your jobs primary weapon(s).
This way you cannot have every new weapon skill, just your main 2-3 jobs that you use the most. Gear would not allow you to reach the required skill level to unlock the weapon skill. Then meriting the weapon skill would work as it does now enhancing the modifiers.

These are just a few things that came through my head when approaching level 99 increase. Now that we are 99 and have these new weapon skills I feel they lack in some areas, while others (*cough* SAM *cough*) are way overpowered, or that its just that the other weapon skills fall short in power and should be raised in strength to balance (yes is used that evil word) them out.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[darkhorror]

You can already only max 3, so you have to chose already. Though having better mods on a couple of the weapon skills would have been nice.

[Unleashhell]

Right. That's what I was getting at. But some people do merit 4 upgrades on weapons instead of the full 8. This would make it that 8/8 was required.

[Kiroh]

I wish each job had gotten their own, and I also wish SE would stop basing new content around level 75 damage. The fact that Stardiver is only very slightly better in abyssea, and worse outside than Drakesbane is RIDICULOUS! The fact that Realmrazer is just outright worse than Hexa strike in every way is beyond comprehension. Apparently level 68 WS = stronger than 96 WS is perfectly acceptable logic to SE...

[Economizer]

In order to unlock the weapon skill, you would need 8/8 merit upgrades into your jobs primary weapon(s).

No. The worst thing SE did with the new WS was force people to choose between them. This isn't WoW, this is FFXI where you can change the job you play by talking to a weird flying creature that lives in your house. :(

Seriously though, we should be able to merit all of them.

[Greatguardian]

Right. That's what I was getting at. But some people do merit 4 upgrades on weapons instead of the full 8. This would make it that 8/8 was required.

He's talking about the WS themselves rather than combat skill. You can already max 4 Combat skills, but you can only max 3 WS.

[Alhanelem]

No. The worst thing SE did with the new WS was force people to choose between them.
Actually, it was the best thing they did. It helps make one character different from another in more ways than just the gear they're wearing. True customization instead of illusionary customization. The fact that not all of them are numero uno also means you're usually not missing all that much if you don't have them all. Some also have meaningful functionality with a single point in them (entropy for MP recovery for instance)

While it does take some time, if you don't like the decisions you made, you CAN undo them. It's not like choosing three weaponskills is a permanent decision. If you later decide you'd really rather have some other one, you can get rid of one and get the other one.

The REAL worst thing they did was nerf the ones that actually were good.


He's talking about the WS themselves rather than combat skill. You can already max 4 Combat skills, but you can only max 3 WS. I'd be perfectly cool with the number of weaponskills you can max matching the number of combat skills you can max. It doesn't need to be more than that though.

[Economizer]

Actually, it was the best thing they did. It helps make one character different from another in more ways than just the gear they're wearing. True customization instead of illusionary customization. The fact that not all of them are numero uno also means you're usually not missing all that much if you don't have them all. Some also have meaningful functionality with a single point in them (entropy for MP recovery for instance)


Why are people so obsessed with being different? The way you treat other players and the way you play the game are all the differences you need, it isn't like we don't have names floating above our heads.

I'd rather myself and my friends be able to play whatever class is best for a situation rather then whatever class we have WS merited for.

I play very uniquely from other players personally, but I don't want that playstyle to adversely affect me if I ever have to go do something that requires a more standardized approach. And changing merits for a single fight is a stupid solution to what should be something super easy.

This isn't WoW, we don't have twenty different characters for each job we play, and I would like to keep it that way.

[Alhanelem]

Why are people so obsessed with being different? The way you treat other players and the way you play the game are all the differences you need, it isn't like we don't have names floating above our heads. We're not "obsessed;" It's just preferable for everyone not to be exact clones of each other.


This isn't WoW, we don't have twenty different characters for each job we play, and I would like to keep it that way. Who ever brought up WoW or said anything about what you said here? And why would you need 20 characters to play each job? NONE of the combat/aweapon skill merits are so vital to the functioning of a job that you couldn't play it properly without them.


I'd rather myself and my friends be able to play whatever class is best for a situation rather then whatever class we have WS merited for. The devs did not originally (nor currently) expect everyone to level every job. When you have multiple people with the same jobs, you pick the right job for the situation, then out of all the people that have the job, you pick the one that merited out for it. How hard is that?


And changing merits for a single fight is a stupid solution to what should be something super easy. No one said or encouraged you to change merits for "every single fight." Only that merits are not totally permanent and if you're unhappy with your choices, you can change them. The point is that your merit investments are not permanent like your race/face- Very few things other than quest completions are completely permanent in the game. It's rare that you would ever need to have more than four weapons up to their merited maximum and have their associated weaponskills to perform competently. In fact, with the possible exception of HTH, I don't think it's nearly as critical to have 8/8 merits in a combat skill as it was at 75. Most of the weaponskills are sidegrades at best and they aren't vital to your functioning either. You really don't need to possess all of them (But it's perfectly possible to possess all of them if you don't mind them being weaker).

TL;DR: The WHOLE POINT of the merit system is two things: Advancement beyond the level cap, and character customization. Letting everyone get all of everything undermines the point of the system.

[Malamasala]

Why are people so obsessed with being different? The way you treat other players and the way you play the game are all the differences you need, it isn't like we don't have names floating above our heads.

Main purpose is to encourage people to play different jobs.

Imagine if WAR had ALL WSes. Why play any other jobs? When you exclude things from jobs, you start encouraging people to play more of the jobs.

While in theory we could let everyone merit all WSes, then we would have to impose some kind of "You got to equip 2 of them on WAR else it has too many" mechanics.

[brayen]

Main purpose is to encourage people to play different jobs.

Imagine if WAR had ALL WSes. Why play any other jobs? When you exclude things from jobs, you start encouraging people to play more of the jobs.

While in theory we could let everyone merit all WSes, then we would have to impose some kind of "You got to equip 2 of them on WAR else it has too many" mechanics.

not sure how that is encouraging anyone to play different jobs.

If war had all the WS he would still use GA because it would be dumb to use anything else, not even sure what that statement was on about at all.

amd ur 3rd and final statement makes just as little sense (no offense) as the restriction is already on the weapon being specific to the weapon type(read you can't use club WS using an axe)

The point eco is trying to make is that it is restricting how well you can performs x and y job because you had to merit a b and c WS. It is not making anyone more unique in any way at all. If you have sam you will merit shoha or retire it for example as it will fall so short for the bar minimum. It is basically a arbitrary limitation just to make an illusion of "uniqueness" that really is not there.

[Seriha]

The irony of the "We want to be unique!" crowd is that they're basically arguing for conformity. Want to be seen as a career/good/whatever job? You better do XYZ! It happens already. The current merit system encourages it with a side of so many useless or too many to fairly split into choices (BLM/RDM/NIN say sup) that only "the best" are largely picked (Haste Samba and Reverse Flourish on DNC T1, for example).

In a nutshell, they're basically arguing to punish people who have the ability to fully diversify and adequately equip their characters. Just because someone has 10 jobs doesn't mean they're automatically worse than the guy who focused on 1. The new WS were implemented poorly, both in performance and distribution. Requiscat's problem is not the MND modifier, but the ATK penalty that effectively shaves 60+ ATK off RDM/BLU/PLD, putting them (well) below the defense rating of any new mobs added the past couple patches even in their WS gear. How others proceed to underperform or serve as sidegrades to older WS is an also issue. Otherwise, older WS acquired by means other than skilling have not been so handily restricted. Imagine only being able to get 5 of 20 Nyzul WS, or only 3 of the older quested WS? Would suck, wouldn't it?

SE just needs to up and lift all merit restrictions. Heck, it makes balance easier since they can assume everyone has everything capped when creating content and not leaving players wondering if they should drop some merits somewhere to put somewhere else. On its own, that whole process would be a significant time sink. Players will still vary in equipment and skill, as well as potential synergy between current party/alliance members. Meanwhile, nobody feels screwed out of a given ability just because they happened to like a few more jobs.

[Alhanelem]

The irony of the "We want to be unique!" crowd is that they're basically arguing for conformity. No, they're not. Even if you do have the pigeonholing you describe, different people pigeonhole into different jobs, making each person better at one or two jobs than the rest, even if they have them all. People will merit out their favorite jobs more than they will merit out the "best" ones.

[brayen]

No, they're not. Even if you do have the pigeonholing you describe, different people pigeonhole into different jobs, making each person better at one or two jobs than the rest, even if they have them all. People will merit out their favorite jobs more than they will merit out the "best" ones.

That is such a false argument on top of being a monstrosity of a weak point to boot. People are "pidgeonholed" into a job based on what is needed almost 99% of the time(read: all the sick and tired whm due to aby burning them out, also stagger bitch jobs etc). People simply merit as they wish me for example i went based on which was most useful to merit first (example DA merit came before i did savagry) not based on this notion of a fav job. I lvled the jobs i liked end of story, i don't like one more then any other. not sure why people can still try to argue this, let alone how this is in any way allows people to be more customized(you will never see a sam w/o shoha now and if you do they will have to leave or change jobs or just be a laughed at)

EDIT: also forgot to point out to the quoted person: no..100% no ..people are as good as they are at the game reguardless of how many jobs they have or how few jobs they are asked to play, if you suck as war you will suck on any job that fits the bill of melee. If you are trying to use someone who poorly gears one job over another(ironically will be the case with weaponskills now since the limit is set on 3 and as such one of the key points those against it are making) then that is on them, not how well someone plays. The game is not rocket science.

Long story short, nice new WS some utility some good dmg, however worse possible way of execution. Seriha made more good points too so ill cut my reply here

[Damane]

I dont mind picking 3 main WSs, but god some of those WS are sucktastic...

[Unleashhell]

Exactly. At 99 no weapon skill that we have to unlock and fully merit to be worthwhile should be any less damaging then the previous weapon skills each job has access too at lower levels. Weapon specific weapon skills are another topic all together.

[Alhanelem]

That is such a false argument on top of being a monstrosity of a weak point to boot.It isn't the least bit false, nor is it weak.Only the elite all merit the same things. Most people merit what they like most. Really- you think everyone out there merits greataxe, great katana and hand to hand, and merits WAR MNK and SAM before any other job? No, that doesn't happen. People merit for the jobs they want to play the most, not what everyone thinks they should do.


People are "pidgeonholed" into a job based on what is needed almost 99% of the timeYour statement has nothing to do with meriting. Even if I had WHM and it was needed a lot, I would not base my merits on it because it's not my "main" job or job of choice. People still merit what they want to play, even if the time comes they do have to play something else. The idea being that someone who bulit their meriting decisions on certain jobs can take the role, with the person who didn't have those merits set up can fill in if necessary. Very few if any merits are so vital to playing a job that they can't be played without them.


people are as good as they are at the game reguardless of how many jobs they have or how few jobs they are asked to play, if you suck as war you will suck on any job that fits the bill of melee.That's a load of steaming horse poo. Being good or bad at any one job for a specific role doesn't automatically make you the same in any other job that can fill that role. I've met great SAMs that sucked at MNK, great WARs that sucked at DRK, great BLMs that sucked at SCH, great BRDs that sucked at COR, etc.

[brayen]

It isn't the least bit false, nor is it weak.Only the elite all merit the same things. Most people merit what they like most. Really- you think everyone out there merits greataxe, great katana and hand to hand, and merits WAR MNK and SAM before any other job? No, that doesn't happen. People merit for the jobs they want to play the most, not what everyone thinks they should do.

Your statement has nothing to do with meriting. Even if I had WHM and it was needed a lot, I would not base my merits on it because it's not my "main" job or job of choice. People still merit what they want to play, even if the time comes they do have to play something else. The idea being that someone who bulit their meriting decisions on certain jobs can take the role, with the person who didn't have those merits set up can fill in if necessary. Very few if any merits are so vital to playing a job that they can't be played without them.

That's a load of steaming horse poo. Being good or bad at any one job for a specific role doesn't automatically make you the same in any other job that can fill that role. I've met great SAMs that sucked at MNK, great WARs that sucked at DRK, great BLMs that sucked at SCH, great BRDs that sucked at COR, etc.

what? where do people merit what they like most? last i checked no1 is going to play differently and say merit defender or go merit chr for some uber primal rends...etc. people ultimately always go with what is best so unless i am misunderstanding you your argument makes no sense to me, and as for what gets meritted first as i proved you wrong with my own example, not everyone goes by this supposed "fav job first" hell with the exp we get today we woudl merit everything in 1 go and literally merit all things first except the limit out limit points(punny)

..and the pigeonholed statement was in response to what you said before, you seem to be taking it out of context or something if you did not see how it fit

..and that last one you are either saying the game is hard (which i would disagree wholeheartedly) or that some people neglect jobs and do not gear them properly in favor of other jobs in which case then that is on them and they should not bother playing neglected jobs... whats the point in lvling something you don't care about?

honestly this argument has been done to death and i honestly don't care to start it up again. Some people think it is retarded to limit the WS and others think they add some magical pixie dust and flowers of uniqueness so whatever, neither side is going to pose an argument the other will agree on

[Greatguardian]

I'm pretty sure Takedown had Warcry merits.

[Karbuncle]

Count me in the group of people who find it retarded to have to chose between what to merit.

Personally, I wanted to merit the Staff WS for fun, It looked nice, But I chose Utility over enjoyment, I should be able to merit them all. They cost 100 Merits each to cap, If i wanted to work for near 1500 Merits, I should be able too.

Being able to play all 20 jobs but only being able to be great at a few of them is counter-productive. Maybe you guys pop a few off at the idea of being forced to be mediocre at something in order to be good at something else, But thats a thought process far beyond my understanding.

If i want to be great at everything, I should be able too. Especially in an MMO where the only goal is pretty much becoming more uber.

Honestly, One of my favorite things about FFXI is being able to change jobs... Play every job I wanted, etc. Being gimp on a few of them due to restrictions that serve no purpose are not fun.

BALANCE

Also, not to be rude, You can save your breath arguing against me, I'm pretty adamant on this stand point. While it'd be cute to watch someone try, If can play all 20 jobs, If i want to put effort into perfecting them, I should be able too.

Again, Especially in an MMO, Where pretty much the core goal is to perfect your character.

By the same logic of limiting merits, Why not just limit it to 1 Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean per Character at this point? So each of you can be forced to chose 1 job to have one for.

[Ahrana]

Honestly they screwed up by making too many categories for merits. Instead of getting 10 picks from each job for group 1/2 merits, if you got 25 picks or so for all group 1/2 merits then people would actually have to make a decision if they're going to put them all into one job or if they're going to cherry pick the best ones from the jobs they play. Instead of having combat and magic categories, they should've just had a skills category so mages could focus on mage skills, while melee could get a couple weapons.

Unless they plan on releasing job specific 99 weaponskills sometime in the relatively near future, I would agree that the merit weaponskills should have been the most powerful of the type. As it is now they made a joke of the entire system by making some very good, but most of them subpar. I'll give SE an A for effort, but a D for execution.

[Alhanelem]

I should be able to merit them all.No, you shouldn't. Again, it undermines the whole point of the system. Why does everyone always have to be able to have everything? Why is having to make choices to bad and horrible? If you don't like the choices you made, you can undo them, so there's no excuse for complaining about having merited something and wished you merited something else. I'm actually all for making it easier to respec- right now it's a little punishing- but the decision making needs to remain. You don't see anyone in WoW biatching that they can't get everything in all of the talent trees for any given class, this is no different.

Decision making is perhaps one of my worst life skills and yet I'm happy that I have to make decisions. Why does everyone cry that they can't have their cake and eat it too?

And get the staff WS- it's one of like two that's actually an upgrade for its weapon type...

[Meyi]

But why do we have to pick and customize one job while letting another fall? Merits serve to make our job stronger should we choose to chase them, and is another way of adding on levels of power without actually adding on levels. I don't see why it's such a big deal to make every job stronger and have access to everything, once again, should we choose to.

I agree with Karbuncle on this.

[FrankReynolds]

No, you shouldn't. Again, it undermines the whole point of the system. Why does everyone always have to be able to have everything? Why is having to make choices to bad and horrible? If you don't like the choices you made, you can undo them, so there's no excuse for complaining about having merited something and wished you merited something else.

Choice is this: 'Hey guys, here's twenty jobs. you can level and gear the crap out of them all if you want (most people don't).

This is being in a box: "Hey guys, here's twenty jobs. You can level them all, but you can only have 3 good ones because we think that sacrificing performance on jobs that you like so that you can merit the jobs people want you to merit makes you special." *gives you the same look that forest gump's mom gives him.*

[hiko]

No, you shouldn't. Again, it undermines the whole point of the system. Why does everyone always have to be able to have everything? Why is having to make choices to bad and horrible? If you don't like the choices you made, you can undo them, so there's no excuse for complaining about having merited something and wished you merited something else. I'm actually all for making it easier to respec- right now it's a little punishing- but the decision making needs to remain. You don't see anyone in WoW biatching that they can't get everything in all of the talent trees for any given class, this is no different.

Decision making is perhaps one of my worst life skills and yet I'm happy that I have to make decisions. Why does everyone cry that they can't have their cake and eat it too?

And get the staff WS- it's one of like two that's actually an upgrade for its weapon type...

gogogo limited possibility:
Add a 3per slot/type limit to number of trial you can finish (3empyrean armor+2, 3relic+2, 3 weapon)
Add special Rare tag on R/EX armor that let you only get one item from the different "set" (if you get toci's you cant get heka's or mekira)
add a 1per slot limit on cursed equipment you can uncursed,salvage you can upgrade....
add a 3limit to job you can lvl over95 since you can't be efficient with more than 3

[Alhanelem]

But why do we have to pick and customize one job while letting another fall?
Because you're not supposed to be the best at every job. You pick your favorites. The game was NOT designed, as many popularly seem to believe, for everyone to max out every job. They expected that only a small number of people would do this (and not as many people do it as you probably think) and prior to abyssea, the number of people with every job capped was VERY small.



This is being in a box: "Hey guys, here's twenty jobs. You can level them all, but you can only have 3 good ones because we think that sacrificing performance on jobs that you like so that you can merit the jobs people want you to merit makes you special." *gives you the same look that forest gump's mom gives him.* You're taking this to a ridiculous extreme. You're not automatically terrible if you didn't max out <insert comabt skill merit here> for <insert job here>. You have an edge, yes, but you act as if any given job is unplayable if you didn't perfectly merit for that specific job. It's simply not the case. You get to be a little stronger on some and not quite as strong on others.

Of course, there's no stopping the bandwagon of "let's have everything" becauseu given the choice between having all of osmething versus not having all of something, anyone would choose all. Weren't any of you taught growing up that you can't always get everything you want?


gogogo limited possibility:
Add a 3per slot/type limit to number of trial you can finish (3empyrean armor+2, 3relic+2, 3 weapon)
Add special Rare tag on R/EX armor that let you only get one item from the different "set" (if you get toci's you cant get heka's or mekira)
add a 1per slot limit on cursed equipment you can uncursed,salvage you can upgrade....
add a 3limit to job you can lvl over95 since you can't be efficient with more than 3 Again taking things to ridiculous extremes. This doesn't help your point. It's not like you can only buff one job. You can buff sevral, especially where skills overlap, and there's the job specific categories which you can raise all of. You get a LOT of leeway. You simply can't have EVERYTHING. I am not and will not propose silly, arbitrary new restrictions on existing things. However. The merit system is fine the way it is. it does not need to be changed to accomodate a few people on insisting on being the best at all 20 jobs.

This thread in a nutshell: GIMME EVERYTHING! NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, I WANT ALL OF IT! I wonder why I don't see this mentality on any other MMO...

In D&D, you can't take every feat or learn every spell (or use every spell at once). You can't multiclass into every class. You can't have every enhancement. Does anyone complain about this? No, because the game was designed and balanced around these constraints.

In WoW, you can't learn every talent on every tree. The only difference from the merit system here is that you can reconfigure your talents more easily than you can reconfigure merits. Nobody complains about not being able to have every talent.

In FFXIV, you can't set every action from every class job on another. You can't cap out the stat allocations to every stat. Nobody complains about this.

In the FFT games, which are the notable other example of characters being able to switch to any job (well, based on race anyway), you couldn't be the best in every job there either- your level up stat growth would be based on your current job at the time of level up, so your character would either be a jack of trades or gravitate towards one job or group of jobs. Nobody seemed to think this was a bad system for those games.

ONLY IN FFXI do i see this. Everyone apparently wants to be all the same as everyone else 100%. Why is having people make decisions such a horrible thing?

[Sonshou]

I have no problem about having to pick on WS to merit on, but I wish we can have an option of fully merit one WS to lv5 and still able to perform all others at lv1.

Yes, just add the category limit to 18 I would be happy.

[Damane]

Count me in the group of people who find it retarded to have to chose between what to merit.

Personally, I wanted to merit the Staff WS for fun, It looked nice, But I chose Utility over enjoyment, I should be able to merit them all. They cost 100 Merits each to cap, If i wanted to work for near 1500 Merits, I should be able too.

Being able to play all 20 jobs but only being able to be great at a few of them is counter-productive. Maybe you guys pop a few off at the idea of being forced to be mediocre at something in order to be good at something else, But thats a thought process far beyond my understanding.

If i want to be great at everything, I should be able too. Especially in an MMO where the only goal is pretty much becoming more uber.

Honestly, One of my favorite things about FFXI is being able to change jobs... Play every job I wanted, etc. Being gimp on a few of them due to restrictions that serve no purpose are not fun.

BALANCE

Also, not to be rude, You can save your breath arguing against me, I'm pretty adamant on this stand point. While it'd be cute to watch someone try, If can play all 20 jobs, If i want to put effort into perfecting them, I should be able too.

Again, Especially in an MMO, Where pretty much the core goal is to perfect your character.

By the same logic of limiting merits, Why not just limit it to 1 Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean per Character at this point? So each of you can be forced to chose 1 job to have one for.




The new WSs are not that powerfull tbh, shoha is decent, resolution is decent, exenterator is very nice, Upheaval is okeish (well underwhelming if compared to ukyo's, but every WS is underwhelming compared to ukyo's). The WSs arent leaps ahead on what existed allready... and then there are those WSs that suck ass completly: Last Stand... ugh and some others.

If your allready existing Weaponskills (aka the old ones) were doing nice with your WS set, chances are high you wont suck against someone useing a new WS... simply because the new WSs are definitly NOT that powerfull.

[Kristal]

Modifiers that are better suited for job that use them.
MND on sword... really??? For the most part the modifiers are the norm you would expect for some of the jobs that will use them.

MND on a sword weaponskill isn't that odd if you consider the jobs likely to use it (PLD, RDM).

[Karbuncle]

The new WSs are not that powerfull tbh, shoha is decent, resolution is decent, exenterator is very nice, Upheaval is okeish (well underwhelming if compared to ukyo's, but every WS is underwhelming compared to ukyo's). The WSs arent leaps ahead on what existed allready... and then there are those WSs that suck ass completly: Last Stand... ugh and some others.

If your allready existing Weaponskills (aka the old ones) were doing nice with your WS set, chances are high you wont suck against someone useing a new WS... simply because the new WSs are definitly NOT that powerfull.

There are a few good ones. I agree not all are, But some of them, while pretty much bleh, can have some situations.

Shijin Spiral is pretty damn close to VS, Especially after nerf, Plus, a bit more consistant.
Exenterator is Epic
Ruinator is Epic
Polearm is Epic
Greatsword is Epic (Can be, anyway)
Sword is Meh, Very, But situational
Staff is Fun, Best Staff WS... But yah still Staff
Club - Meh
Marksmanship is actually rather good, Just not for COR.
Archery - Dunno
Katana - Dunno
Great Katana - Amazing
Great Axe - Best Mighty Strikes Zerg WS

Out of the Above, I'd like to be able to Merit...

H2h,
Dagger
Axe
Great Axe
Polearm
Staff

Cause I have and enjoy playing jobs that can make use of those. But I've settled on Dagger, H2h, and Axe for now. I'm just sad my Dragoon and WAR have to suffer because of this.

[Kristal]

If can play all 20 jobs, If i want to put effort into perfecting them, I should be able too.

I think what you are refering to is OCD, Obsessive Completion Disorder. Gotta get em all! But the reality is, you cannot be a jack-of-all-trades AND a specialist-of-all-trades. Your inventory can't handle it, even if you tried.

[Tashan]

The idea behind the merit point system when it was initially introduced was to allow players to diversify their jobs. That is why it is not possible to max everything out within a category.

Whilst we don't have to like it, you do have to deal with it.

----

As for weaponskills in particular, never has there been an update where all new WS' were best for the jobs that can use them. Mythic Weapons instantly springs to mind.

[Karbuncle]

I think what you are refering to is OCD, Obsessive Completion Disorder. Gotta get em all! But the reality is, you cannot be a jack-of-all-trades AND a specialist-of-all-trades. Your inventory can't handle it, even if you tried.

I think what i'm referring too is the want to not be a mediocre pile of barely passable >_>.

Nothing wrong with the healthy want to excel at what you do!

But yah, Inventory, Could be an Issue. Curse SE.

[Alhanelem]

As I mentioned before, I DO however think that the number of combat skills you can cap and the number of weaponskills you can cap should match eachother. Right now we get 4 weapon combat skills (or 3 weapon combat skills and 2 defense combat skills- perhaps this is what SE is thinking, because initially we were able to do 2 weapon and 1 defense skill) but can only get 3 weapon skills.

I think the chances are pretty good that they will increase this later.

[Return1]

The New WSes are fucking awesome, and some of the crap I've read in this thread is just outright wrong.

Apex Arrow: Situationally the best Archery WS.

Blade: Shun: Best katana WS outside of abyssea barring Blade: Hi.

Entropy: Hands down the most damaging Scythe WS in the game by a large margin.

Exenterator: A THF/DNC WS with a 100% AGI mod, what else needs be said?

Last Stand: 4.4 fTP with 100% AGI mod for gun. THF can also use without /RNG.

Realmrazer: Sucks if you have Hexa.

Requiescat: Sucks because of the -20% Attack penalty, the 100% MND mod is pretty reasonably since it's mostly PLD/RDM/BLU.

Resolution: Extremely powerful now that the -ATK has been reduced to -8%. 100% STR mod.

Ruinator: Shits all over Rampage outside of Abyssea, barring obscene defense. 100% STR mod, Belt/Gorgets across all hits with base fTP of 1.0 and a large attack boost.

Shattersoul: If for some reason you're meleeing as a Mage, this is the best staff WS.

Shijin Spiral: Already known to be awesome.

Stardiver: Strongest Polearm WS in the game outside of abyssea. Twice the STR mod, slightly less fTP, but no gigantic ATK down like Drakes.

Tachi: Shoha: 100% STR mod, huge ATK bonus, and stacks with TP Bonus even better than Y/G/K.

Upheaval: Only really good with Mighty Strikes, in which case, it's the best.

[darkhorror]

The New WSes are fucking awesome, and some of the crap I've read in this thread is just outright wrong.

Apex Arrow: Situationally the best Archery WS.

Blade: Shun: Best katana WS outside of abyssea barring Blade: Hi.

Entropy: Hands down the most damaging Scythe WS in the game by a large margin.

Exenterator: A THF/DNC WS with a 100% AGI mod, what else needs be said?

Last Stand: 4.4 fTP with 100% AGI mod for gun. THF can also use without /RNG.

Realmrazer: Sucks if you have Hexa.

Requiescat: Sucks because of the -20% Attack penalty, the 100% MND mod is pretty reasonably since it's mostly PLD/RDM/BLU.

Resolution: Extremely powerful now that the -ATK has been reduced to -8%. 100% STR mod.

Ruinator: Shits all over Rampage outside of Abyssea, barring obscene defense. 100% STR mod, Belt/Gorgets across all hits with base fTP of 1.0 and a large attack boost.

Shattersoul: If for some reason you're meleeing as a Mage, this is the best staff WS.

Shijin Spiral: Already known to be awesome.

Stardiver: Strongest Polearm WS in the game outside of abyssea. Twice the STR mod, slightly less fTP, but no gigantic ATK down like Drakes.

Tachi: Shoha: 100% STR mod, huge ATK bonus, and stacks with TP Bonus even better than Y/G/K.

Upheaval: Only really good with Mighty Strikes, in which case, it's the best.

This is correct, and even Requiscat can be good if fighting something with lots of resistance where it goes through that resistance.

People don't end up gearing these ws's well, or aren't 5/5 then complain. Not gearing well vs gearing well is a massive difference on these ws's.

This is shown by people complaining about Tachi: Shoha being over powered, while it's not even the best merit WS. Then complaining about the best merit WS being crap.

[Malamasala]

I think I should be able to put all my points in staff. I mean, if that is the only WS I want to use, why should I not be able to do so? Pretty much the same thing as people wanting to merit all their weapons.

Except of course, if I could put 15 points in staff, all of you would complain you can't put 15 in each of your weapons. Because you all want to be best at everything, and I just want to be better than you at one thing since I specialize.

[FrankReynolds]

Because you're not supposed to be the best at every job. You pick your favorites. The game was NOT designed, as many popularly seem to believe, for everyone to max out every job. They expected that only a small number of people would do this (and not as many people do it as you probably think) and prior to abyssea, the number of people with every job capped was VERY small.

This game was designed very long ago, and most of what we do now was not originally intended. That is not a valid form of reasoning. The game changed. People changed. Limits like this annoy most people, while providing virtually zero benefit. The number of jobs that are capped can be naturally capped just by making the cost in merit points high enough that most people would only choose to max a few jobs., while still providing the option to people who choose to do so.


You're taking this to a ridiculous extreme. You're not automatically terrible if you didn't max out <insert comabt skill merit here> for <insert job here>. You have an edge, yes, but you act as if any given job is unplayable if you didn't perfectly merit for that specific job. It's simply not the case. You get to be a little stronger on some and not quite as strong on others.

Yes, if you look at one category in a vacuum, they are very insignificant. However, when you look at them all in real practice like this situation: where 2 sam in identical gear, have a difference of 15 strength, 16 base skill (that means acc and att.), 8 emnity, 150 base HP, %4 crit base, and 1 has shoha and stardiver. the other does not. Why? because 1 guy merited a bunch of crap like - emnity, and MP so that he could help his ls out on other jobs, even though he doesn't like those jobs.


Of course, there's no stopping the bandwagon of "let's have everything" becauseu given the choice between having all of osmething versus not having all of something, anyone would choose all. Weren't any of you taught growing up that you can't always get everything you want?

No, I was taught that if I work hard enough, I can achieve. Who benefits by me having shitty a BARD or <insert job here>? People who feel better because their <insert job here> is better than mine?


Again taking things to ridiculous extremes. This doesn't help your point. It's not like you can only buff one job. You can buff sevral, especially where skills overlap, and there's the job specific categories which you can raise all of. You get a LOT of leeway. You simply can't have EVERYTHING. I am not and will not propose silly, arbitrary new restrictions on existing things. However. The merit system is fine the way it is. it does not need to be changed to accomodate a few people on insisting on being the best at all 20 jobs.

This attitude reminds me of old HNM bot shells that would let items drop to the floor if no one paid for them, just so that the price stayed high. Only you want peoples merits to drop to the floor, so that someone else's merits remain valuable.


This thread in a nutshell: GIMME EVERYTHING! NO MATTER WHAT IT IS, I WANT ALL OF IT! I wonder why I don't see this mentality on any other MMO...

If people earn it, they should have it.


In D&D, you can't take every feat or learn every spell (or use every spell at once). You can't multiclass into every class. You can't have every enhancement. Does anyone complain about this? No, because the game was designed and balanced around these constraints.

That's why that game sucks, and I don't play it.


In WoW, you can't learn every talent on every tree. The only difference from the merit system here is that you can reconfigure your talents more easily than you can reconfigure merits. Nobody complains about not being able to have every talent.

That's why that game sucks and I don't play it.


In FFXIV, you can't set every action from every class job on another. You can't cap out the stat allocations to every stat. Nobody complains about this.

That's why that game sucks, and I don't play it.


In the FFT games, which are the notable other example of characters being able to switch to any job (well, based on race anyway), you couldn't be the best in every job there either- your level up stat growth would be based on your current job at the time of level up, so your character would either be a jack of trades or gravitate towards one job or group of jobs. Nobody seemed to think this was a bad system for those games.

Guess what I was thinking here.


ONLY IN FFXI do i see this. Everyone apparently wants to be all the same as everyone else 100%. Why is having people make decisions such a horrible thing?

One of the hugest selling points of FFXI is being able to change jobs. Making overspecialized merit categories that force sacrifice (not choice) is not a selling point.

I decided I want to cap merits on 5 WS, but I can't, so i guess I'll be like everyone else and merit the 3 best ones. Too bad, that staff one looked kinda cool.

FYI: Right now, almost everyone is meriting 3 WS 5/5. If they remove the cap, almost no one will merit all WS 5/5, because most people don't even have all the weapons skilled that high. Now who is promoting choice?

Because you all want to be best at everything, and I just want to be better than you at one thing since I specialize.

No, you want people who play more than you to not be better than you. You think that because you only have time to max out 1 job, that that should be the cap. You want to be better than people even though they work harder.

[Sparthos]

Merits a terrible excuse for 'diversification' when you had things like "Berserk Recast" or "Defender Recast" as options to choose from. Few jobs had a real choice between what to merit for Cat I and Cat II because it boiled down to improve a good aspect or bring a crappy aspect up a few pegs.

It's like: A choice between one of the best JAs a DD can have (zerk) or a shitty boost to a crappy JA that does pure shit for DEF and nerfs your damage output (defender). Decisions, decisions!

Warrior's Charge or Aggressive Aim.. oh man, the choices are tearing me apart.

I prefer talent trees but even those have flaws.

[Unleashhell]

MND on a sword weaponskill isn't that odd if you consider the jobs likely to use it (PLD, RDM).

Its odd because its the ONLY modifier for that weapon skill. At least the other sword weapon skill have STR as another modifier. At least most of the others do. Don't forget that there is a 20% ATT penalty with that WS. Technically you can just pop some ATT food but most of the time there are other food you use on PLD. Considering most people merit STR that also becomes a negative impact, because unless your a career WHM you dont usually merit MND. And all those merits help when modifiers for most sword weapon skills are STR and MND.

[Unleashhell]

I can understand why people are saying that you should be able to merit everything. Personally I don't see why you should be able to merit all the combat skills. Why even have a merit system? Just raise the cap on all combat skills and take off the merit system entirely. It would come out to be the same would it not? The merit system is designed for the player to customize two - three jobs that separate them from the rest of the jobs you level. Making those two or three jobs, the ones you put the most time into to gear and play the most. Keep in mind we are not talking job ability timers here we are talking combat skill only. Personally I would like to see 8 more upgrades in the combat skills category and an expansion in the "others" category, that adds other features to merit.

[Dreamin]

And if you have more than 2-3 jobs that you used on a regular basis? You can't be good at every one of them is that what you're saying?

[Zinato]

gogogo limited possibility:
Add a 3per slot/type limit to number of trial you can finish (3empyrean armor+2, 3relic+2, 3 weapon)
Add special Rare tag on R/EX armor that let you only get one item from the different "set" (if you get toci's you cant get heka's or mekira)
add a 1per slot limit on cursed equipment you can uncursed,salvage you can upgrade....
add a 3limit to job you can lvl over95 since you can't be efficient with more than 3

Oh i've got one, make 3 different types of customizable gear for a few armor slots, then make them customize further so that even the jobs that share gear dont benefit from the stats. Surely nothing like that would ever happen forcing you to choose something so helpful as -10% DT/pet haste 5% between something like smn or bst, greatly weakening the other. They wouldnt do that right?

[brayen]

Oh i've got one, make 3 different types of customizable gear for a few armor slots, then make them customize further so that even the jobs that share gear dont benefit from the stats. Surely nothing like that would ever happen forcing you to choose something so helpful as -10% DT/pet haste 5% between something like smn or bst, greatly weakening the other. They wouldnt do that right?

wow no u did not, u just pulled out the mini mission expansion rewards, omg those gears are so game breaking! did you know wearing them allows you to do something unique...oh wait it doesn't lol Christ 99% of the augments are and always were worthless on those rewards, did you really just use that as an argument? lol

[Zinato]

This is my problem the pet stats are not match to pet jobs, mage to mage, melee to melee, evasion to evasion. this is the one and only split that really suck because its such an incredible augment. And as you just stated most are crap, this one is of the few that is not.

[Unleashhell]

And if you have more than 2-3 jobs that you used on a regular basis? You can't be good at every one of them is that what you're saying?

Has nothing to do with being good at any or all of your jobs. It has to do with what is the point of the merit system for combat skills if everyone just want to be able to merit them all?

[Alhanelem]

I can understand why people are saying that you should be able to merit everything. Personally I don't see why you should be able to merit all the combat skills. Why even have a merit system? Just raise the cap on all combat skills and take off the merit system entirely. It would come out to be the same would it not? The merit system is designed for the player to customize two - three jobs that separate them from the rest of the jobs you level. Making those two or three jobs, the ones you put the most time into to gear and play the most. Keep in mind we are not talking job ability timers here we are talking combat skill only. Personally I would like to see 8 more upgrades in the combat skills category and an expansion in the "others" category, that adds other features to merit.
Pretty much this- Why even have the combat skill merits if you can get them all? May as well just raise the skill caps. Why even have merit WS if you can get them all? May as well make them auto-learnable.

People don't seem to understand why these things were placed in the merit system in the first place. If they wanted us to be able to get them all, they would have just made them generally available instead of having a merit point system.


That's why that game sucks, and I don't play it. x5Your opinions are not facts. Clearly, all of those example games have plenty of fans. All of those example games have some mechanics similar to FFXI, and the best defense you can come up with is "those games suck so I don't play them?" That doesn't negate the point.

So basically, you hate any game where you can't be and get everything all at once. You hate making decisions and you want everything served to you on a silver platter. Where is the fun in that?

FFXI was designed to let you switch between jobs, yes. But it was NOT designed with the assumption that everyone would play every single job and level them all up to maximum- the developers themselves said they did not expect people to do this and were suprised at the number of people who did (this came up in discussions about storage space). Even for the people that do, most of them like playing certain jobs more than others, and will gear and merit for those jobs. They are still 100% capable of playing all 20 of them, they just tweak out their favorites a little more. This is not a bad thing, it's a good thing and should be encouraged.


You can't be good at every one of them is that what you're saying?You CAN be good at every one of them. Merits are not so gamebreaking that a job is unplayable without its associated combat skill or magic skill merited to maximum or its weapon skill merited to maximum or attribute merited to maximum. Mathy elite types, feel free to chime in here and tell me the approximate impact on your performance with a weapon that doesn't have 8/8 merits in its combat skill vs the same one that does, but I don't think it's that significant. Unless you're a MNK, it's mostly about accuracy not damage, and what A+ skill DD can't easily max its accuracy anyway?

You can be good at all 20 jobs, and slightly better at a few of them. Just because you didn't 8/8 greataxe doesn't mean you can't bust one out on WAR if your group really needs it.

Merit points ARE talent trees, just without the tree structure.

A less punishing way to respec your merits is all the game really needs. Refund at least some of the merit points spent and have no time restrictions, or refund all merit points spent on something but place a cooldown on it. If you change your mind about something, it should be reasonably easy to do so. That way you can change something without going "crap, now I have to grind for a few more hours to change the merits I've already gotten". I think that's fair and reasonable.

[FrankReynolds]

Has nothing to do with being good at any or all of your jobs. It has to do with what is the point of the merit system for combat skills if everyone just want to be able to merit them all?

The point is that If you merit the skills then you are better than the people who didn't bother.

One of FFXI's biggest selling points is the ability to play multiple jobs / classes on one character. Merits in jobs specific categories are somewhat understandable because they don't limit you to just being good at one job, and rarely even force you to decide how to play the specific job that they are for, due to the fact that many of the categories are not something people would want to boost. Being limited to the number of merits that you can put into non job specific merits limits your ability to use the job change feature at all.

Unlocking them doesn't mean that people will just automatically have all the same crap.

[Seriha]

The "point" of the merit system is basically something to do with EXP once you're level capped instead of slowly letting us creep to level 255 or something that'd otherwise destroy game difficulty. If you're of the mind that everyone being 8/8 in all weapon and magic categories as well as capping job specific merits would do the same, I'm not really sure what to say other than it wouldn't.

I'm going to perform what some may consider blasphemy and bring up Rift's Planar Attunement system. It's basically that game's equivalent of merits. For every 500k EXP you get once you're 50, you're given 100 points than you can spend in one of the six elemental trees. Each tree has three tiers and the trees are all different per class. To unlock a given element's tier, you have to completely fill out the tier prior. To go from T1 to T2, it's something like 74 post-50 level ups. As for the what the system offers, each element tends to favor a given attribute or two like Vitality or Strength. Each slot on the grid, depending on the upgrade, can be leveled up to 4 times with each successful level costing more of the points you gain with each ding.

The kicker here is that Trion doesn't say, "You can only pick one element tree, sorry!" If you're ambitious enough, you can spend the great deal of time it would take to max all of them. When I was playing, depending on what I opted to do that day, I usually strove to get at least one PA level. This often involved doing a few world events, quest dailies, and then maybe tanking a dungeon for a guild run or two. It probably took me about two months to cap the Earth plane's T1, and I consider myself somewhere between the casual and hardcore line of player. And this is only one character in a game where if I wanted to be the Mage, Cleric, or Rogue callings, I'd have to level another character entirely and do it all again for them.

But you know what? I consider it an intelligent time sink. Why? For starters, it doesn't waste EXP post-50. It's something you can use to build your character alongside doing your usual activities. Finally, the only thing stopping you from utilizing it is yourself. Don't be fooled, though, even if an individual character is limited to one of the four callings, they still have a number of souls not unlike FFXI's job system, complete with the ability to mix and match. While I didn't personally take the time to chase gear for damage dealing purposes on my Warrior when a tank wasn't needed, the option was there, and my PA investments would've helped.

FFXI is ultimately no different in this regard. However, jobs like PLD, DRK, WAR, SAM, and DRG aren't locked to a generic warrior paradigm while a rogue type would contain THF, DNC, NIN, RNG, COR, and so on and so forth. Very few people level multiple characters on the same account. The game never encouraged it and there's no true benefit to doing so. As a consequence, the limitations of the merit system stick out like a sore thumb for those whose "favorites" don't synergize well with their merit choices. My current favorite jobs are probably RDM, BLU, DRK, and THF. Sword works for RDM and BLU, Dagger for THF and RDM, but Great Sword would only help DRK even though I also have WAR and PLD leveled. I ultimately wound up putting my combat merits in Sword, Dagger, Axe, and Club because I came to the conclusion that one-handed jobs needed the ATK/ACC help more than two-handers. I've never been big into the H2H jobs, ruling that out, and Katana only applies to NIN even though I realize they're also a one-handed job. If I had the choice to merit everything, though, you'd bet your britches I would. I wouldn't have it done the day after patch, or probably not even a month or two after. It'd still be something to do with a resource that I'll otherwise soon be wasting once I polish off STR merits and decide on a third WS to merit. Yeah, I'm one of the kooks with her other 75+ jobs' merits capped. Why? I play a fair deal. Why? I don't limit myself to my favorite jobs because sometimes my friends and linkshell need something specific that nobody else available can offer.

So, kindly bleep off with the logic that I have to settle for being inferior because someone with less play time or drive might have their feelings hurt by not being "as dedicated" as me or anyone like me. I just want to do my own thing in peace with my pals. Furthermore, the merit system can always be built upon, just like how the new WS or G2s were added to it.

[Greatguardian]

The New WSes are fucking awesome, and some of the crap I've read in this thread is just outright wrong.

Apex Arrow: Situationally the best Archery WS.

Blade: Shun: Best katana WS outside of abyssea barring Blade: Hi.

Entropy: Hands down the most damaging Scythe WS in the game by a large margin.

Exenterator: A THF/DNC WS with a 100% AGI mod, what else needs be said?

Last Stand: 4.4 fTP with 100% AGI mod for gun. THF can also use without /RNG.

Realmrazer: Sucks if you have Hexa.

Requiescat: Sucks because of the -20% Attack penalty, the 100% MND mod is pretty reasonably since it's mostly PLD/RDM/BLU.

Resolution: Extremely powerful now that the -ATK has been reduced to -8%. 100% STR mod.

Ruinator: Shits all over Rampage outside of Abyssea, barring obscene defense. 100% STR mod, Belt/Gorgets across all hits with base fTP of 1.0 and a large attack boost.

Shattersoul: If for some reason you're meleeing as a Mage, this is the best staff WS.

Shijin Spiral: Already known to be awesome.

Stardiver: Strongest Polearm WS in the game outside of abyssea. Twice the STR mod, slightly less fTP, but no gigantic ATK down like Drakes.

Tachi: Shoha: 100% STR mod, huge ATK bonus, and stacks with TP Bonus even better than Y/G/K.

Upheaval: Only really good with Mighty Strikes, in which case, it's the best.

List is crap.

Apex? Get a Gandiva.

Blade: Shun? Get a Kannagi.

Entropy? Tell the DRKs that.

Requiescat? Get an Almace.

Last Stand: Situationally comparable to Wildfire if and only if you have the Attack to support it, but not nearly as useful. Does not blow the Empyrean out of the water.

Realmrazer: No one else uses clubs. Paladin? Get an Almace. Blu? Get an Almace.

Shattersoul: No one really cares, to be honest. Could have been put to better use on a better weapon type.

Shijin: Requires a relic to barely edge out Verethragna. Get a Verethragna.

Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.

"Fucking Awesome"? Hardly. Even the best are sidegrades aside from Tachi: Shoha and Stardiver, 2/12 relevant WS. No I'm not going to count Staff and Club because I honestly don't give a damn. No point giving awesome WS to those weapons if no one's capable of using them to any degree of proficiency.

Ruinator is a shame too considering it's actually decent, but it's BST so again no one cares. All of the good WS are tempered in some way by the jobs that actually use them aside from Shoha, but it's kinda obvious why SAM gets nice toys.

[FrankReynolds]

Pretty much this- Why even have the combat skill merits if you can get them all? May as well just raise the skill caps. Why even have merit WS if you can get them all? May as well make them auto-learnable.

Hey everyone can attain all the same gear if they try hard enough. Might as well just give all the gear away too huh? Why even have gear if everyone can just get it?


People don't seem to understand why these things were placed in the merit system in the first place. If they wanted us to be able to get them all, they would have just made them generally available instead of having a merit point system.

They were put there so that players could continue to grow in strength, and have reasons to continue grinding, without the dev team having to do a full on level increase, and all the work that goes with it. Everyone had the same stuff, and there was none of this diversity you think your preserving.


Your opinions are not facts. Clearly, all of those example games have plenty of fans. All of those example games have some mechanics similar to FFXI, and the best defense you can come up with is "those games suck so I don't play them?" That doesn't negate the point.

So basically, you hate any game where you can't be and get everything all at once. You hate making decisions and you want everything served to you on a silver platter. Where is the fun in that?

Yes, I hate any game where I can't play different jobs effectively. That's why I am playing this game. Those other games have their own forums. I don't really care what the pros and cons of them are. I play this one because it offers me diversity in what role I can play. As far as a silver platter, We're talking about being able to spend points that I earned. Not getting points for free. I have points I can't spend, and jobs that could really use them. Where's the fun in that?


FFXI was designed to let you switch between jobs, yes. But it was NOT designed with the assumption that everyone would play every single job and level them all up to maximum-

Cool. People don't and won't. On a side note. They recently changed the Exp system so that people can in fact level and play every job fairly easily now. They still don't do it, but they can. You should check it out.


the developers themselves said they did not expect people to do this and were suprised at the number of people who did (this came up in discussions about storage space).

Did you think they were going to say "yeah, we knew you would run out of space, but we didn't really care."?


Even for the people that do, most of them like playing certain jobs more than others, and will gear and merit for those jobs. They are still 100% capable of playing all 20 of them, they just tweak out their favorites a little more. This is not a bad thing, it's a good thing and should be encouraged.

So basically, people already diversify on their own, but you think it should be forced upon them instead?


You CAN be good at every one of them. Merits are not so gamebreaking that a job is unplayable without its associated combat skill or magic skill merited to maximum or its weapon skill merited to maximum or attribute merited to maximum. Mathy elite types, feel free to chime in here and tell me the approximate impact on your performance with a weapon that doesn't have 8/8 merits in its combat skill vs the same one that does, but I don't think it's that significant. Unless you're a MNK, it's mostly about accuracy not damage, and what A+ skill DD can't easily max its accuracy anyway?

OK, go look on the AH and see how much you will have to spend to add 16 skill, 8 attack/accuracy, and 15 strength to both your TP and WS sets for your favorite job. Get back to me when you have that kind of gil laying around. that is from just 3 categories of merits. Then try getting your ls to let your Mage merited sam spam gekko on VW mobs in that because your sam doesn't have shoha either.

Each category in itself is somewhat of a small difference, but the more jobs you level, the more gimp they become. The more effort you put into your character in this regard, the less reward you get.


You can be good at all 20 jobs, and slightly better at a few of them. Just because you didn't 8/8 greataxe doesn't mean you can't bust one out on WAR if your group really needs it.

Merit points ARE talent trees, just without the tree structure.

A less punishing way to respec your merits is all the game really needs. Refund at least some of the merit points spent and have no time restrictions, or refund all merit points spent on something but place a cooldown on it. If you change your mind about something, it should be reasonably easy to do so. That way you can change something without going "crap, now I have to grind for a few more hours to change the merits I've already gotten". I think that's fair and reasonable.


Talent trees are cool, But they have to lead to equally powerful jobs. IE: if one tree makes you an awesome support blu, while another guy is a great DD blu, ok. While that still doesn't let you do everything, it does allow you to get the same performance as the next guy, if you put in the same amount of time and effort.

If one tree makes You great at one job, but a Gimp at 15 others, then very few people will bother with anything but the three most popular jobs. FFXI already has enough job favoritism.

[Unleashhell]

The point is that If you merit the skills then you are better than the people who didn't bother.

One of FFXI's biggest selling points is the ability to play multiple jobs / classes on one character. Merits in jobs specific categories are somewhat understandable because they don't limit you to just being good at one job, and rarely even force you to decide how to play the specific job that they are for, due to the fact that many of the categories are not something people would want to boost. Being limited to the number of merits that you can put into non job specific merits limits your ability to use the job change feature at all.

Unlocking them doesn't mean that people will just automatically have all the same crap.

So again why even have a combat skill merit category? Why not just cap the skill for all weapons at a certain point? Maybe I'm not wording things correctly, but for instance if you cap at sword at 424 then add your 8/8 merits you will have 440 skill. Why not just raise the skill level to cap out at 440 to begin with and eliminate the combat skill merit category all together? Being everyone wants to fully merit every single combat skill to its fullest it totally makes the combat merit system pointless. Once you fully merit every skill to its cap there is no diversity between people in the combat skill category if they all have capped combat skill merits.

[Karbuncle]

Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.

Really the first time I've seen you say something pretty bad.

Exenterator perform exceptionally well Stacked, as much as unstacked. Being the best Unstacked WS we have give it its Bad-ass Status as is. I'm not sure If you've done a lot of VW on THF (Probably not, Useless etc), but you rarely, RARELY, have SA or TA up when you have TP. more than 80% of my WS I pop off Without SA or TA Timers being up, and Exenterator can do upward 1800~1900 Unstacked on Some of the mobs(Usually around 900~1400) (Hit it a few times on Akvan, Nothing special, Can provide proof if needed :X, But again, Nothing special)

Point being, for a THF WS, It stacks right up there, and its only outclassed "Stacked" If you have Rudra's or Mercy, Its also the best Stacked WS if you don't have Rudra's/Mercy.

Its really nowhere near a Sidegrade, It so far outclasses Evisceration(anywhere outside OF Brokebyssea) and DE its definitely an Upgrade WS, one of the better ones.

Sure, you won't use THF a lot in these situations, Most LS's don't, But for a Thief WS, Ignoring pointless arguments like "lol why bring a THF", its definitely an upgrade to a Thief's arsenal.

Maybe I'm reading what you said wrong :X

[FrankReynolds]

So again why even have a combat skill merit category? Why not just cap the skill for all weapons at a certain point? Maybe I'm not wording things correctly, but for instance if you cap at sword at 424 then add your 8/8 merits you will have 440 skill. Why not just raise the skill level to cap out at 440 to begin with and eliminate the combat skill merit category all together? Being everyone wants to fully merit every single combat skill to its fullest it totally makes the combat merit system pointless. Once you fully merit every skill to its cap there is no diversity between people in the combat skill category if they all have capped combat skill merits.

Most people won't bother to merit everything. Especially if the caps on these require high numbers of merits, like 30 - 50 per level. Capping WS and non job specific stuff doesn't make everyone a special snowflake. It just annoys the people who want to do more.

Think hard. Do you want your <insert job here> to be the best one around because you spent time getting all your gear sets, and macros, and play style straight? or do you want it to be because there was a lack of competition due to people being capped on merits, and not liking that job as much? Personally, I want my dancer to be bad ass because I made it bad ass. Not because everyone else merited GA, GK, and H2h.

[Greatguardian]

Really the first time I've seen you say something pretty bad.

Abyssea is irrelevant, Completely. Anyone with half a brain knows Abyssea is broken so far in favor of Crits theres nothing that can hope to surpass it. Really absolutely no logical reason to mention it.

Exenterator perform exceptionally well Stacked, as much as unstacked. Being the best Unstacked WS we have give it its Bad-ass Status as is. I'm not sure If you've done a lot of VW on THF (Probably not, Useless etc), but you rarely, RARELY, have SA or TA up when you have TP. more than 80% of my WS I pop off Without SA or TA Timers being up, and Exenterator can do upward 1800~1900 Unstacked on Some of the mobs(Usually around 900~1400) (Hit it a few times on Akvan, Nothing special, Can provide proof if needed :X, But again, Nothing special)

Point being, for a THF WS, It stacks right up there, and its only outclassed "Stacked" If you have Rudra's or Mercy, Its also the best Stacked WS if you don't have Rudra's/Mercy.

Its really nowhere near a Sidegrade, It so far outclasses Evisceration(anywhere outside OF Brokebyssea) and DE its definitely an Upgrade WS, one of the better ones.

Sure, you won't use THF a lot in these situations, Most LS's don't, But for a Thief WS, Ignoring pointless arguments like "lol why bring a THF", its definitely an upgrade to a Thief's arsenal.

Maybe I'm reading what you said wrong :X

It's an upgrade over non-Emp/Relic WS for sure, but I'm taking all of the WS in the context of the real "best" counterparts. I don't use Thf myself, but I find that my Mandau buddy very rarely uses Extent because it's so badly outclassed when stacked. Both Rudra's and Mercy should destroy it stacked.

Personally I just don't really see Thf used often outside of Abyssea or Dynamis, which is why I brought those two events up. In Dynamis, you lose out on theoretical WS frequency because you're fighting a lot of weak monsters and waiting for procs a lot, which means you're basically able to SA every WS. In Abyssea, Evisceration will beat it unstacked so there's no contest there either.

If a THF is actually around in Voidwatch, it's probably their best unstacked WS (though still handily beaten by Rudra/Mercy stacked), that's just not a very common application for the WS since Thf and Dnc aren't the most popular additions to VW (especially since TH can't bypass the light cap - changing this would be an incredible buff to the job and would hopefully help a bit in making Voidwatch drops less head-smashingly terrible). It's like how Shattersoul and Ruinator are pretty nice WS on paper, but SmnMelee and Bst being SmnMelee and Bst make the WS significantly less useful in practice. Extenterator is nice outside Abyssea on strong monsters where you have the WS frequency to use multiple unstacked WS. People just don't actually do that.

[darkhorror]

Ruinator is quite nice. with normal 5 hits landing(which included DW) you have an ftp of 6.0 at 100% up to 9.6 if you manage 8 hits, an attack bonus higher than 22%, STR mod.

Also BST is underestimated, with something like it's slug pet you can use corrosive ooze which drops the mobs def and attack by a lot, I think 33% though I haven't tested that. This will raise the entire alliance damage by a lot.

[Prothscar]

Slug pet's Corrosive Ooze is analogous of the monster and blue magic version of 5% for both attack and defense down. Sure as shit is not 33%.

[darkhorror]

Slug pet's Corrosive Ooze is analogous of the monster and blue magic version of 5% for both attack and defense down. Sure as shit is not 33%.

Have you tested it out on BST? as I know it's sure as hell isn't 5%

[Alhanelem]

Hey everyone can attain all the same gear if they try hard enough.Not everybody wants the same gear though.


OK, go look on the AH and see how much you will have to spend to add 16 skill, 8 attack/accuracy, and 15 strength to both your TP and WS sets for your favorite job. Get back to me when you have that kind of gil laying around.Those things alone do not totally make or break your combat capability unless you're an elitist perfectionist. 8 attack/accuracyt aren't hard to come by. If by strength you mean attribute merits, most people seem to get STR regardless of the jobs they play because it has some kind of benefit for almost everybody depending on the situation. 16 skill is what provides the attack and accuracy you mentioned. I realize it's not that simple, but we're not talking a dramatic difference in damage here. If you're not in an elitist linkshell, and you really NEED a SAM and your SAM without GK and STR merits is the only one around, you can still play that needed role. Not as well, but I can't think of any fight in the game where 16 combat skill and 15 STR on a single person (assuming they at least have proper gear) will determine if you win or not.


So basically, people already diversify on their own, but you think it should be forced upon them instead? People already diversify on their own because of the merit system. Without the merit system, there would be no difference between one SAM and the next except for their gear (Don't talk to me about skill, it doesn't take a genius to play SAM effectively). So I guess, yes- it should be forced on us. Why should one person get to be the best at everything? Shouldn't people who focus on a few jobs get to be stronger with them?


Did you think they were going to say "yeah, we knew you would run out of space, but we didn't really care."?You missed the point of the statement. The point is that the developers were caught off guard because they designed the game around an assumption that a few people would end up breaking. You can play a few jobs and still run out of space. The mention of storage space was only to vaguely source the statement (since I can't find the exact original statement right this moment) and is not part of why the merit system is good the way it is.


They were put there so that players could continue to grow in strengthYes, that's part of it, but not to grow in strength universally, to grow in strength in specific ways chosen by the player. There is no reprecussion for decision making if you can get it all eventually anyway. It makes your choices have more meaning. There is more than one reason for the merit system, but specialization is one of them and that cannot be denied.


Cool. People don't and won't. On a side note. They recently changed the Exp system so that people can in fact level and play every job fairly easily now. They still don't do it, but they can. You should check it out.They didn't change the EXP gain to say "hey, you can play all 20 jobs now, and you have to!" They did it because the game is old and growth speed is always increased as MMOs get older, so that newer players who join can catch up to the existing players. There is no obligation of people to level every job, and the reason some people specifically refuse to is so that they can actually play the jobs they like instead of being limited to the 5 most popular jobs that are the only ones "accepted" for endgame at any given time. There's 20 jobs, not 5, if you level them all up and get to merit them all 100%, the pigeonholing will be even worse than it is with the restricted merit system. All you will ever see (at least, with the way things have been for the last while) are WARs MNKs, SAMs, WHMs and BRDs with rare exceptions.



If one tree makes You great at one job, but a Gimp at 15 others, then very few people will bother with anything but the three most popular jobs. FFXI already has enough job favoritism. Job favoritism will be worse, not better, this way. Everyone has every job and has equal base capability with every job, so we can always have the 5 core jobs we always need! How convenient! People being stronger with some jobs than others, as well as not having every job,helps promote the development of alternative strategies, instead of everyone always using the same strategy for everything.

People are talking about the merit system like it's broken or something, when it's not. Customization is bad! Same is good!

[Karbuncle]

It's an upgrade over non-Emp/Relic WS for sure, but I'm taking all of the WS in the context of the real "best" counterparts. I don't use Thf myself, but I find that my Mandau buddy very rarely uses Extent because it's so badly outclassed when stacked. Both Rudra's and Mercy should destroy it stacked.

I wouldn't say "Destroy", The WS itself is rather powerful, In Voidwatch I've peaked 3k+ Stacked or higher. I don't really pay much attention, I Can dig up some parses. But its pretty good.

But yah, Mercy Stroke/Rudra's is what puts it to shame, But your THF Friend should use it -alot- If you're fighting a mob you zerg/Beat to piss almost non-stop. (Like say, Akvan, or anytime you have a Fanatics up)


Personally I just don't really see Thf used often outside of Abyssea or Dynamis, which is why I brought those two events up. In Dynamis, you lose out on theoretical WS frequency because you're fighting a lot of weak monsters and waiting for procs a lot, which means you're basically able to SA every WS. In Abyssea, Evisceration will beat it unstacked so there's no contest there either.

Well, It really does perform quite well in dynamis, Unstacked and Stacked - Again, Unless you have Rudra's Mercy.

Either way, I think despite how baddly i word somethings, We essentially agree. its great uNstacked/Stacked if you don't have a Relic. Still, as far as THF Weaponskills Go? its #1 Unstacked, #3 Stacked.

I use it enormously, But this will probably slow down when i get my Mandau :X

[Prothscar]

Have you tested it out on BST? as I know it's sure as hell isn't 5%

Limules on the test server indicated 5% when I ran the test during my stint on abusing that system as much as I could. Feel free to do it yourself.

[darkhorror]

Limules on the test server indicated 5% when I ran the test during my stint on abusing that system as much as I could. Feel free to do it yourself.

I guess you never tested it on BST, BLU corrosive ooze sucks, Beastmasters doesn't. I am going to sleep now and I couldn't get my attack low enough to test to see exact number yet but it's well over 25%. as fighting beetles where I brought my attack low enough so they would con high defense. Then used corrosive ooze they then conned low defense, I didn't have low enough attack to get it to where they would con neutral, i'll test tomorrow while using a dagger so I can lower my attack enough to see how much def- it actually is.

[Return1]

Apex? Get a Gandiva.

Not everyone wants to bother with a Gandiva. Newer testing shows that Jishnu's is retard strong. The only use for Apex is ridiculously strong High Evasion/Defense mobs. That and SAM. Still useful and arguably the best outside of Jishnu's.


Blade: Shun? Get a Kannagi.

Same stupid argument? Well, Blade: Shun and Blade: Hi outside abyssea really comes down to mob defense, and crit rate. Blade: Shun has a better WSC mod with 100% DEX, and a higher fTP value, the only thing in Hi's favor are Shun's attack penalty and crits. So for events where you rip through a lot of low defense trash mobs, Shun is a great tool to have. Dynamis, Einherjar, Limbus, Nyzul, etc for example.


Entropy? Tell the DRKs that.

DRKs, and on this board in particular, are pathetically bad in general. As a fairly amazing long-time DRK myself, I can vouch for it being 100% better than every scythe WS by miles. Catastrophe with a 90+ Apoc was handily our Strongest Scythe WS. Now Entropy is. In the past an INT mod may have been less than desirable but today INT gear makes for wonderful WS piece. Twilight Helm, Twilight Mail, Relic +2 hands, Dilaram's/Bale +2 Sollerets for example all have great INT boosts and are amazing for WS. All jobs get access for good INT Rings, Earring, and Ammo. The neck and waist are always Belt/Gorget so that's a wash. So INT mods are not so lol anymore, and that goes for almost all mods but CHR anymore.

TL;DR: The DRKs who think Entropy sucks for a Scythe WS are retards. I would not be surprised if they don't gear for INT because they think INT mod only affects MP drain.


Requiescat? Get an Almace.

Requiescat sucks, but if it didn't have that -20% attack, it could be a sturdy WS. As it stands, it's current main use is for BLUs wanting to close Self Darkness with Quadrastrike for ridiculous numbers, which actually makes it very useful. Keep making the "get this weapon argument".


Shijin: Requires a relic to barely edge out Verethragna. Get a Verethragna.

Get a Spharai you gimp!

See how that works?

You can't even say that it's not the same either, because nowadays you can easily pump out gil for a relic in the same amount of time as it takes to farm your own Empyrean.


Oh yeah, Exenterator: What needs to be said is it only does well outside Abyssea, and only if you're not stacking a force-crit JA with it. Both dagger users have force-crit JAs. It's a situational sidegrade WS that's inherently tied down by the fact that you don't often see situations where Dagger users are actually in groups large enough to give them the support spells required (and to fight the large monster types required) to do a meaningful number of WS without a force-crit. WS frequency is inhibited when spamming weak mobs, which is where you most often see Dncs and Thfs.


Wrong, wrong, wrong.

You're Wrong.

You won't find a DNC or THF worth a damn that has anything bad to say about Exenterator. It's the best unstacked outside abyssea and if you're worth a damn, most of your WSes are likely to be unstacked. The mods is damn amazing too.


Ruinator is a shame too considering it's actually decent, but it's BST so again no one cares. All of the good WS are tempered in some way by the jobs that actually use them aside from Shoha, but it's kinda obvious why SAM gets nice toys.

BST is kinda a big deal now. Lots of people have or are leveling it because it's pretty useful for soloing anything just about anything in the game, it's also now a legit heavy DD thanks to new pets that kick ass, compared to the old weaklings they had before. Ruinator is amazing 5/5.


Last Stand: Situationally comparable to Wildfire if and only if you have the Attack to support it, but not nearly as useful. Does not blow the Empyrean out of the water.

The situation is outside of abyssea, then yes, Last stand is situationally useful. As endgame starts to finally balance out, you're going to see even more magic resistant mobs coming. It also depends on Buffs/debuffs on the target and the job using the gun. For example on RNG you have to be in a pretty poor situation on a mob with no magic damage resistance for Wildfire to pull ahead. Otherwise you'd use a big ass gun and a big ass bullet and use Last stand.

Fun side note: On trash mobs THF can play with multihit daggers and a culverin and spam last stand like a KC RNG in the old days. No real point but it's pretty fun.


"Fucking Awesome"? Hardly. Even the best are sidegrades aside from Tachi: Shoha and Stardiver, 2/12 relevant WS. No I'm not going to count Staff and Club because I honestly don't give a damn. No point giving awesome WS to those weapons if no one's capable of using them to any degree of proficiency.

Tachi: Shoha, Stardiver, Entropy, Resolution, Ruinator, Exenterator, Shijin Spiral, and Last stand are at least situationally if not ALWAYS the strongest WS of their weapon type outside of abyssea. That qualifies them as fucking awesome.

Blade Shun is pretty damn close to awesome, it's a solid upgrade barring Kannagi

Apex, Upheaval, and Requiescat are situationally useful.

Realmrazer is just sad and lonely hoping someone's taking WAR/PLD/SAM to apollyon SE lol.

You've shown you know very little about a lot.

[Greatguardian]

I wouldn't say "Destroy", The WS itself is rather powerful, In Voidwatch I've peaked 3k+ Stacked or higher. I don't really pay much attention, I Can dig up some parses. But its pretty good.

But yah, Mercy Stroke/Rudra's is what puts it to shame, But your THF Friend should use it -alot- If you're fighting a mob you zerg/Beat to piss almost non-stop. (Like say, Akvan, or anytime you have a Fanatics up)



Well, It really does perform quite well in dynamis, Unstacked and Stacked - Again, Unless you have Rudra's Mercy.

Either way, I think despite how baddly i word somethings, We essentially agree. its great uNstacked/Stacked if you don't have a Relic. Still, as far as THF Weaponskills Go? its #1 Unstacked, #3 Stacked.

I use it enormously, But this will probably slow down when i get my Mandau :X

We're basically on the same page, yeah. I just figure if I'm going to knock Shijin down as being inferior to Smite unless you have Spharai, then it's at least consistent to say that Extent is inferior to Rudra/Mercy unless you're stacking it outside Abyssea (Stacked Rudra/Mercy will always win in/out, and Evis unstacked should win inside).

It's just not often that I see unstacked dagger WS outside Abyssea, personally. Especially after the introduction of White proc, and given just how big a pain in the ass a lot of the new NMs are if fought for too long, terrorlock zergs with White are pretty much the most effective way to VW at the moment and one-handers are generally not too apt in those situations.

If someone doesn't have Rudra's/Mercy, Extent is nice. But that's also like saying Raging Rush is nice if you don't have Ukko's Fury. I'm more concerned with the end-goal than the interim WS. If something can't stay useful past a certain point of character development, then it's really not that useful at all.

Edit:

Post above me,

Am building Spharai, because it's better. No complaints there.

See discussion on Extenterator over the past couple of pages for comments there. Extent is worthless because Thief and Dancer are not useful on any content where Extent would actually be used at all.

No one gives a shit about BST or BST solo.

Ranger? Get a Gandiva. Corsair? Last Stand is not beating Wildfire unless you're rocking Gjallar Mins, RCB, possibly Berserk (though subbing WAR is a bad idea overall), and fighting a fairly weak target. It's situationally useful on targets that resist Fire or Magical damage. It is not an Arma-killer.

I missed Resolution, though.

Resolution, Tachi: Shoha, and Stardiver are pretty nice and are actually used to some effect on quasi-relevant jobs.

Ruinator sucks because BST is trash. Shijin Spiral is literally only able to keep pace with Vereth when you have a 130Million gil weapon and a literally perfect WS set - hardly a WS that blows Smite out of the water. Last Stand is weaker than Wildfire on the only job that should be using it at all unless you're getting extreme buffs. Entropy is irrelevant because Resolution is better.

Having fun with your Spherical Chickens?

I like doing math in a vacuum too. It's so much easier when you don't have to look at the reality of the situation and realize that a WS could have 15 fTP and a 300% STR mod and no one would give a flying fuck about it if that WS was SCH specific on Staff.

[Prothscar]

I guess you never tested it on BST, BLU corrosive ooze sucks, Beastmasters doesn't. I am going to sleep now and I couldn't get my attack low enough to test to see exact number yet but it's well over 25%. as fighting beetles where I brought my attack low enough so they would con high defense. Then used corrosive ooze they then conned low defense, I didn't have low enough attack to get it to where they would con neutral, i'll test tomorrow while using a dagger so I can lower my attack enough to see how much def- it actually is.

What part of that makes you think I wasn't on BST? Again, use limules. They're far easier to manage. Accounting for possible errors in the test, most I could see is 25% for a somewhat short duration. 33% for both sounds high.

Just went and got two sample sets very quickly.

No debuff
444 atk
278 def

Debuff 1
332 atk
208 def

Debuff 2
296 atk
185 def


Set 1 coincides with almost exactly a 25% decrease to both stats.

Set 2 coincides with an oddball decimal between 33% and 34% decreases to both stats.

Variable effect seems likely, or it may degrade over time.

Another odd set.

388
243

Almost exactly coincides with a 12.5% decrease to both stats.

Possibly a bug with the test server, as a variable Attack/Defense debuff doesn't seem right.

[Return1]

So essentially your argument is I think these jobs are useless so any powerful WSes for them sucks?

God you're a gigantic retard.

And so is your Get <Item> Argument, like you're gonna solo it fast if you have a life (the having a life argument is valid here because if you have a life sitting in a room by yourself fighting polygons by yourself for hours on end is just...), or your group is going to be cool farming you every time you want to pick up a job, before you.

Of course you think THF is useless in content where Exenterator would be used, like Dynamis/Nyzul/Limbus, all things where TH plays a large role and have been or will soon be upgraded.


Entropy is irrelevant because Resolution is better.

Entropy isn't so far behind Resolution as you would think. Resolution is ahead in fTP, and the STR mod is better than Entropy's INT mod, though not by nearly as much as people imagine today. But the tradeoff is the -8% ATK, and slower WS due to a 6-hit vs 5-hit.

The best DRK DD setup involves Apoc and Entropy builds.

The only reason most DRKs complain about Entropy is that they suck.


Though it's hyperbole, a SCH with a 15fTP and 300%STR WS would be the best DD in the game, but people like you would still call it useless. Which is funny because thet's the position BST is in now as a DD. It's actually pretty high up there thanks to gear/pet/ability advancements, but fools still disregard it.

[FrankReynolds]

Not everybody wants the same gear though.

Not everyone wants the same merits though.


Those things alone do not totally make or break your combat capability unless you're an elitist perfectionist. .....
.....

Cool, well I guess I'll just stop wasting time on upgrades to gear too. It doesn't make or break my combat capabilities. Full pink power ranger ftw.


People already diversify on their own because of the merit system. ...... Shouldn't people who focus on a few jobs get to be stronger with them?

No. If I put in more time / effort into my jobs, you shouldn't get to be better just because my other jobs got capped. Most sams have the same merits, and if they don't, they aren't getting invited to many things on sam are they?


You missed the point of the statement.

I really didn't. You said they didn't expect it to happen. They knew people would cap merits. They are the ones who added all the new ways to exp faster. They just didn't compensate for it. They are adding more to the merit system, and it shouldn't be done this way.


There is no reprecussion for decision making if you can get it all eventually anyway. .... but specialization is one of them and that cannot be denied.

Lets be very clear here. Everyone can technically get everything in the game. It doesn't just apply to merits. Everyone will not cap everything. Just the things they need for their jobs. You keep acting like people are going to automatically get fully capped merits in every category for free.



They didn't change the EXP gain to say "hey, you can play all 20 jobs now, and you have to!" They did it because the game is old and growth speed is always increased as MMOs get older, so that newer players who join can catch up to the existing players. ......

People are talking about the merit system like it's broken or something, when it's not. Customization is bad! Same is good!

Everyone has the same merits now. There is none of this customization you talk about. People just don't play the jobs that they can't merit because un-merited jobs suck. Who wants to be gimp all the time?

[darkhorror]

What part of that makes you think I wasn't on BST? Again, use limules. They're far easier to manage. Accounting for possible errors in the test, most I could see is 25% for a somewhat short duration. 33% for both sounds high.

Just went and got two sample sets very quickly.

No debuff
444 atk
278 def

Debuff 1
332 atk
208 def

Debuff 2
296 atk
185 def


Set 1 coincides with almost exactly a 25% decrease to both stats.

Set 2 coincides with an oddball decimal between 33% and 34% decreases to both stats.

Variable effect seems likely, or it may degrade over time.

Another odd set.

388
243

Almost exactly coincides with a 12.5% decrease to both stats.

Possibly a bug with the test server, as a variable Attack/Defense debuff doesn't seem right.

You must have tested on blue before because you said it was 5% which is what BLU does for corrosive ooze.

Your results could be due to some sort of resistance though that would be strange, also what buffs, food, gear did you have when getting those numbers?

I did a test vs beetles where I know their defense, it did lower their defense by 33%. aka their (mob defense)*.666, or (mob defense)/1.5

I guess now I need to go look for something with a lot of fire resistance which I can test on.

[Greatguardian]

So essentially your argument is I think these jobs are useless so any powerful WSes for them sucks?

God you're a gigantic retard.

And so is your Get <Item> Argument, like you're gonna solo it fast if you have a life (the having a life argument is valid here because if you have a life sitting in a room by yourself fighting polygons by yourself for hours on end is just...), or your group is going to be cool farming you every time you want to pick up a job, before you.

Of course you think THF is useless in content where Exenterator would be used, like Dynamis/Nyzul/Limbus, all things where TH plays a large role and have been or will soon be upgraded.



Entropy isn't so far behind Resolution as you would think. Resolution is ahead in fTP, and the STR mod is better than Entropy's INT mod, though not by nearly as much as people imagine today. But the tradeoff is the -8% ATK, and slower WS due to a 6-hit vs 5-hit.

The best DRK DD setup involves Apoc and Entropy builds.

The only reason most DRKs complain about Entropy is that they suck.


Though it's hyperbole, a SCH with a 15fTP and 300%STR WS would be the best DD in the game, but people like you would still call it useless. Which is funny because thet's the position BST is in now as a DD. It's actually pretty high up there thanks to gear/pet/ability advancements, but fools still disregard it.

RL card some more. Calling mediocre WS "good" just because you don't have anything better on your personal character is like calling Raging Rush superawesomez because getting a Ukon is "hard". What happened to Relics/Emps being easy to grind out? We had agreed on that point up until this post, unless you were just kidding and actually think that's a reasonable boon to the WS.

Extenterator should almost never be used in Dynamis unless you're doing Arch NMs, and we have no idea where Nyzul and Limbus changes will leave the job. Current Nyzul changes look like complete and utter trash, so it may not be relevant at all. How does Dynamis flow? Sit and try to proc mob > Proc > Run behind it > SA Mercy > mob is dead. Rinse and repeat.

Not one-shotting things with SA Mercy? Seriously, suck less.

A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gear, abilities, or traits to back up the power of the WS. You'll never, ever cap cRatio on SCH and you sure as hell aren't going to be TP'ing or WS'ing in any reasonable setup. A 300% STR WSC is extremely gear-dependent, and if there's one thing SCH certainly isn't overflowing with it's STR/DD gear.

WS can look "neat" on paper all they want, they'll still be completely irrelevant if you actually look at their context. I'd like to see what you consider "high up there", but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance".

But sure, go ahead and backpedal/AdHom more. Ukko's and Smite are powerful because War and Mnk are powerful. Those are fucking awesome WS because they're actually used properly by fucking awesome jobs. Stringing Pummel is irrelevant because the only job that gets it is PUP, which is like saying "Hey, I can swing a bat like Babe Ruth, I'll just have to roll to first base with my wheelchair. MLB scout me please?"

Oh yeah, and really, the other 9 WS are so far entrenched in sidegrade-ism that "fucking awesome" is the absolute last thing I'd use to describe them. They're fine for mediocre players who can only do mediocre things like EXP but can't handle actually acquiring anything better. That doesn't make them awesome - just a crutch.

[Alhanelem]

Not everyone wants the same merits though.
Which is why you get to choose. Thanks for proving my point.


Cool, well I guess I'll just stop wasting time on upgrades to gear too. It doesn't make or break my combat capabilities. Full pink power ranger ftw.Ridiculous extremes do not enhance your argument. Also, job specific merits are not at issue: only the global ones are.


Most sams have the same merits, and if they don't, they aren't getting invited to many things on sam are they?Such a person doesn't care that they aren't getting invited to many things on SAM. They only have it there for when another SAM is not available within their group/linkshell.


They knew people would cap merits. They are the ones who added all the new ways to exp faster. They just didn't compensate for it. They are adding more to the merit system, and it shouldn't be done this way.Please point me to the proof that they "knew" this. They knew a few hardcore elitists with no life would do it. They don't balance most of the game around hardcore elitists, because they are a very small percentage of the population.


Everyone will not cap everything. Just the things they need for their jobs. You keep acting like people are going to automatically get fully capped merits in every category for free.With the current rates of EXP gain, that's not far from the truth. Maintaining these limitations is the only way to keep the distinction between characters that they originally provided. You seem to forget that the merit system was ADVERTISED to be a way to customize your character. If you can get everything, then there's no real customization now is there?


People just don't play the jobs that they can't merit because un-merited jobs suck. Who wants to be gimp all the time? Actually, not-fully-merited jobs do not "suck." Maybe to your standards, but not to normal person standards. Not meriting a combat skill doesn't cut your damage in half or make your job nonfunctional. You won't perform *as well*, but you can still do what's needed in a pinch if someone who did merit that stuff isn't avialable. The whole goddam point is to make people different.

---------------------------


A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gearActually, that's ridiculous enough that people would end up trying to use it. SCH also isn't totally without ways to boost its combat stats (though not by enough for normal purposes, for an insane WS like that, it would be a big deal). Adloquium for a little extra TP, Firestorm (with merits) for extra STR (+7 STR would be +21 BD on fantasy WS) sub WAR get beserk/warcry/attack bonus... say you took 15.0 fTP and 300% STR fTP mod and applied that to retribution- that's more than 5 times stronger than the Retribution would be at 300% TP and would be at least acceptable damage with a "weapon" staff instead of a stat stick.

You give someone some ridiculous mods, people will find a way to exploit it. Being on a job that sucks at melee or a crappy weapon isn't going to be enough to stop it.


but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance". Is it really necessary for you to be so inflammatory? I haven't even said anything.

[Prothscar]

You must have tested on blue before because you said it was 5% which is what BLU does for corrosive ooze.

Your results could be due to some sort of resistance though that would be strange, also what buffs, food, gear did you have when getting those numbers?

I did a test vs beetles where I know their defense, it did lower their defense by 33%. aka their (mob defense)*.666, or (mob defense)/1.5

I guess now I need to go look for something with a lot of fire resistance which I can test on.

For the fifth time I did not test on BLU

[Mavrick]

What part of that makes you think I wasn't on BST? Again, use limules. They're far easier to manage. Accounting for possible errors in the test, most I could see is 25% for a somewhat short duration. 33% for both sounds high.

The quote below was taken from a test conducted when the Slug pet and Corrosive Ooze was first released... So unless something was changes they should still be accurate.



Checked again just to be certain:
After using Corrosive Ooze on Chasm Gnat I then brawled on it until it used Pandemic Nip (transfers enfeebles from monster to player), at which point Attack Down and Defense Down was transferred to me.

Before gaining Attack/Defense Down effects
Attack: 549
Defense: 440

After gaining Attack/Defense Down effects
Attack: 366
Defense: 293

So basically lost roughly 1/3 of my original attack and defense.

Duration seems to be around ~90 seconds...

[FrankReynolds]

Which is why you get to choose. Thanks for proving my point.

Ok, I choose to cap 15/15 strength Dex and INT. Can you show me where I do that in the menu? no? guess I don't really get to choose do I? I can either pick being a mediocre DD or a mediocre mage. That's really not much of a choice at all. Take a look at the census. Everyone is meriting the same crap. Removing these caps does nothing but allowing people to play their jobs a little better (IF They choose to invest the time to merit them).


Such a person doesn't care that they aren't getting invited to many things on SAM. They only have it there for when another SAM is not available within their group/linkshell.

Really? Your telling me that it's impossible that that guy could want to cap his merits?


Please point me to the proof that they "knew" this. They knew a few hardcore elitists with no life would do it. They don't balance most of the game around hardcore elitists, because they are a very small percentage of the population.

uhhhh....People who have gone to abyssea exp parties are not a small percentage of the population.


If you can get everything, then there's no real customization now is there?

I was unaware that they added the free relic moogle to the live server so that everyone could have mythics relics and empys at their disposal. Do people not have to earn / quest gear anymore? Is there a new moogle that gives you every piece of gear and leaves nothing up to you but picking your merits? Did they make it so that you automatically get capped merits now?

Since when are the merits the only way to differentiate yourself from another player (not that they do that now. I guarantee that you have nearly the same merits as most other people)?


Actually, not-fully-merited jobs do not "suck." Maybe to your standards, but not to normal person standards. Not meriting a combat skill doesn't cut your damage in half or make your job nonfunctional. You won't perform *as well*, but you can still do what's needed in a pinch if someone who did merit that stuff isn't avialable. The whole goddam point is to make people different.

Actually, since you believe that everyone has the same gear, and there is nothing left to differentiate them but merits..... not having the merits does in fact mean that they suck. Merits can't be unimportant to performance, and also be the only means to differentiate characters at the same time. They are either important or they unimportant. If you don't think they make a significant difference in play, then you should have no reason to care if I cap them all.


Why is being different so important to you? You should be worried about being good. If being good means doing something that no one else thought of yet, then you should do it anyways. They will catch on. If being good means wearing the same gear as everyone else, then you should do that too. Merits are performance enhancements. You can always get a funny T-shirt or something if you want to be different. All this different talk really sounds like "I want to be better than the next guy, but he has access to the same stuff as me ; ;". Isn't him being WHM and you being a Puppet master enough difference?

[Alhanelem]

NOTE: If you'd like to condense all this crap into a single sentence, here we go: "Letting everyone merit all merits to the maximum would be worse for the game than just leaving it as it is now, because it would promote conformity to singular strategies and make many jobs more forgotten than they already are."

The rest of this post is not worth reading unless you're the person whom I'm quoting, so I'll just minimize it for the rest of you.



Finally, tying this more to the topic: If you need to have the weapon skills just for the sake of having them, then go ahead and merit all of them. They won't be as strong, sure, but you have them all.

[Windwhisper]

i peronally think. Since new WS are below most existing once even when 5/5 merited we should have had the option to upgrade each and every one of the new ones to 5/5. many of us have more than just 3 jobs they like to play and would have loved to actually use the WS for their main weapon.

Seeing a 3/5 Realmrazer doing 350ish dmg with 300 TP is simply disspointing and not worth the 3 merits at all.

[FrankReynolds]

Where did I say I believe that? Stop twisting words.

It's not twisting words. It's deductive reasoning. If you think that the only way to differentiate your character from the next is through merits, then clearly that means that all differences in gear and play style have been eliminated. Hence : "everyone has the same gear".


I'm not worried about being good. Being good is something that happens because you put work and effort into what you do, and I do that. This is just another conformity vs uniqueness debate. I can just flip it around and ask why you want everything to be the same, except gear? and why is gear an acceptable exception when the merit system isn't?

Because the amount of effort required to completely max out all gear is substantial enough that no one would conceivably achieve that. Thus the chances of a player capping out on gear will be limited to a few jobs at most. Merits on the other hand can be easily capped out, and therefore create an artificial barrier that has very little to do with skill, time or effort. If people could cap all those categories, most still wouldn't by choice. I challenge you to point me at even one player who can say that they have absolutely nothing left that they can do to make their gear better, and are therefore powerless to be different. Some will say they are done, but if you put their gear under a microscope, you will find flaw. There is always room to tweak gear, and the degree to which it is done is up to the player to determine ( choice ).


it might "sound like" it to you, but that's not what it is. It's "I want to be different" not "I want to be better."

Then why are you worrying about performance enhancing traits? Become a melee mage, or play samurai as a support job.


Not by itself, nope. "Him" can be better at one and I can be better at another job. The current merit system facilitates that- people who focus on certain jobs can stand out on them more- however this doesn't prevent anyone else from filling the role if that person isn't there.

IF I play 8 hours a day on 2 jobs, and you play 2 hours a day on 1, you getting to be better at the 1 despite the fact that I play them more is ridiculous.


Are you unable to make such decisions?

When leveling 1 job was an enormous freaking chore, having that fork was not really much of a fork at all. The choice was easy because most people only had a couple jobs and rarely had to sacrifice anything. Many of them had unpopular jobs, and had a hard time even getting the merits in the first place. That is no longer the case.


"people who have gone to abyssea exp parties" and "hardcore elitists" are not the same group of people. The game is not specifically balanced around meeting the needs of the top 0.1% of the playerbase. I suppose you're trying to argue that everyone has gone to an abyssea EXP party and leveled up every job to 99 just because it's not a hard thing to do. It still takes time and some people don't want to play some jobs and most people don't like EXPing so much that they want to level up a job just for the sake of leveling it.

I know, that's why we don't need the caps. People aren't going to do everything anyways. It's simply an added benefit to the longtime players and people who have more time. Everyone isn't going to suddenly have all the merits and all be the same like you describe. They will all still have 3-7 jobs leveled on avg, and ignore the categories that don't suit their needs.


The merit system ensures that people who level up every job can't easily be the best at all of them, totally undermining the efforts of players who have dedicated themselves to mastery of a few classes - not just one, as you can easily choose several within the limits of the merit system-

Sounds good in theory. In practice, That guy who has all jobs 99 probably has shit gear for half of them, and even if he magically got all the best gear for every job, he still wouldn't play them all as well as someone who plays that with a passion. I thought you wanted to be different anyways, not the best.


Letting everyone have everything limits possibilities, because everyone will gravitate toward the same method for everything. Someone PLEASE tell me why this is a good thing.

Its not letting everyone have everything. They still have to gear and master these jobs. I really don't know where your getting that.

[Alhanelem]

If you think that the only way to differentiate your character from the next is through merits, then clearly that means that all differences in gear and play style have been eliminated. HenceI don't think that it's the ONLY way to differentiate. But I DO think (because it's a fact) that the merit system was designed to provide more ways to differentiate your character. Also, gear doesn't differentiate us as much as I would like because you see a lot of people gravitating toward a small pool of gear deemed to be "the best." Merits do have a similar problem, but it's not as pronounced because not every potential choice to be made with merits is as clear-cut.


Its not letting everyone have everything. They still have to gear and master these jobs. I really don't know where your getting that. It IS letting everyone have everything. Everyone is talking about how easy it is to get EXP and merits. using the logic poised by others, it should take very little time to "master" those jobs.


i peronally think. Since new WS are below most existing once even when 5/5 merited we should have had the option to upgrade each and every one of the new ones to 5/5. many of us have more than just 3 jobs they like to play and would have loved to actually use the WS for their main weapon.It doesn't follow. The problem you pose doesn't really tie in at all to why you think people should be able to get everything. The quality of the weapon skills is not a reason to allow getting them all. If you think they're so bad, even 5/5, then that should make your decision about which ones to get even easier. Why waste your time getting them at all if you're so disappointed by them?


IF I play 8 hours a day on 2 jobs, and you play 2 hours a day on 1, you getting to be better at the 1 despite the fact that I play them more is ridiculous.You're not making much sense with your example, because you're playing more on each of the two jobs than the other person is on one. You're going to be buffed up and stronger on both of them before the other person gets done with one. So no, I'm not going to be stronger on the one job then you are on either of the two- We're still within the limits of the merit system here. Now if we both spent 4 hours playing, yes, I do deserve to be stronger on the one job than you are on either of the two. However, you still have an advantage of greater flexibility for any given situation. Leveling up a few classes vs. all of them should be a simple matter of being jack of many trades vs master of few. The flexibility of being able to choose any job compensates for the slight decrease in power from not having optimal merits for all of those jobs.


People aren't going to do everything anyways.But some people WILL get everything, otherwise we wouldn't have any reason to be asking for it. And those few people who do get everything will have an even bigger advantage over those who don't, forcing people to do things they might not really want to do just to keep up, sucking some of the fun out of playing.

Supporters of removing the limits are treating the merit system as nothing more than post levelcap level-ups. That's part of its purpose, but not the whole purpose. Customization is part of the purpose too, and there is no customization if you get to obtain all merits.

[Unleashhell]

Most people won't bother to merit everything. Especially if the caps on these require high numbers of merits, like 30 - 50 per level. Capping WS and non job specific stuff doesn't make everyone a special snowflake. It just annoys the people who want to do more.

Think hard. Do you want your <insert job here> to be the best one around because you spent time getting all your gear sets, and macros, and play style straight? or do you want it to be because there was a lack of competition due to people being capped on merits, and not liking that job as much? Personally, I want my dancer to be bad ass because I made it bad ass. Not because everyone else merited GA, GK, and H2h.

"Most people won't bother to merit everything."
......
Isnt this my point? If people wont bother meriting all their combat skills anyway (your words) why do we need to have them all meritable? So back to having 3-4 jobs being able to merit combat skills fully is the way it should be then. They should raise the amount of limit points so you can merit 4-5 weapons instead of 3.

And to your second part of what you are saying, no I'm not to concerned about the other jobs past the 3 I can fully merit combat skills for. Reason why? because I hardly ever play them... I leveled those jobs for flexibility not to be the best most awesome uber spectacular person at every job. TBH I suck at mage jobs, why should I care if the combat skills are merited or not for mage jobs? I'm on PLD 95% of the time I play because its the job I love the most. The reverse might be for someone who is a career WHM. If they hate or know they suck at melee jobs why should they care about being able to merit the combat skills for those jobs?

I think being able to merit 5 offensive combat skills fully is perfect imo.

[Alhanelem]

The number of weaponskills to cap should be upped to match the number of skills you can cap. And if they increase the number of skills again, I'd be fine with them increasing the WS number again. But they shouldn't just up and unlock it all.

[Return1]

What happened to Relics/Emps being easy to grind out?

No one said they were hard. They're time consuming. Very time consuming.


Extenterator should almost never be used in Dynamis unless you're doing Arch NMs, and we have no idea where Nyzul and Limbus changes will leave the job. Current Nyzul changes look like complete and utter trash, so it may not be relevant at all. How does Dynamis flow? Sit and try to proc mob > Proc > Run behind it > SA Mercy > mob is dead. Rinse and repeat.

Then you're doing it wrong. Solo in dynamis you should be killing as fast as possible on WS proc mobs, that means most of your WSes are unstacked. Why? Forgotten items sell for far more than currency, and sell fast. Forgotten items drop rate is independent of procs. You can solo farm the equivalent of 300-500 currency in forgotten items and sell them. Groups should do the same, though some groups prefer a BST or DNC to tag along for White Procs. BST is good because pet WSes count as JA and they only nerfed AoE Spells and WSes ability to proc multiple mobs.

Limbus has seen a bit of a rebirth since people are doing it to get their AF+1 and ABCs ready for AF+2.

It doesn't matter if Nyzul 2.0 is trash,it's focus is slaughter, and people are going to do it because +5 pieces are fucking awesome. Hell Nyzul 1.0 has also seen a bit of a resurgence because people are farming Askar/Denali/Goliard that they didn't bother with before.


A SCH with a 15fTP and 300% STR WS would still be shit because you're throwing a nice WS onto a shit job with no gear, abilities, or traits to back up the power of the WS. You'll never, ever cap cRatio on SCH and you sure as hell aren't going to be TP'ing or WS'ing in any reasonable setup. A 300% STR WSC is extremely gear-dependent, and if there's one thing SCH certainly isn't overflowing with it's STR/DD gear.

It's ignorant shit like this that proves you have no idea how game mechanics work. Off the top of my head a Hume SCH/Melee can easily break 150 STR outside abyssea. That's 382 base DMG before you count the weapon and fSTR. Say it only came out to 450 base DMG. That's 6750 DMG after fTP. With enough buffs and debuffs, SCH could reach 1.0 cRatio on just about anything in the game. SCH could also sub THF for upwards of 13000 damage on NMs. This is outside abyssea, and without DA/TA figured in.


I'd like to see what you consider "high up there", but you'll probably just throw more spherical chickens at me like how Analhelm insists that PUP is "a really good DD if anyone gives it a chance".

Your whole argument essentially boils down to jobs that aren't MNK or WAR suck. That's your only argument, which doesn't even fit. You're saying a WS is useless, but it just happens to be the strongest of its type. We should just delete Axes and BST because you were wrong about it? You're backpedaling into a retarded argument because you know you fucked up.

I also hate to shatter your sad -wannabe- elitist worldviews circa 2006, but jobs like PUP, BST, and DRK have really caught up in the DD department.

PUP was laughably bad because it had a C in HTH, no MA despite specializing in HTH, couldn't use the strongest HTH WSes, horrible gear (fucking belicose mantle at 75?), and a weak pet with a long cooldown. Now PUP has B+ HTH, native MA, Stringing Pummel and Victory Smite, melee and pet enhancing gear that is actually good, a stronger pet with new/improved attachments, and DEA. It's a completely different job.

BST sucked because it had no native DD boosts, and it's jug pets were pathetically weak. Now BST has jug pets that are far more powerful, we're talking leagues ahead in DD, and now a new WS that helps BST's lack of native ATK boosts by having a big one built in. Not to mention boosts to pets through gear, new JT, and pet survival options.

DRK sucked because it was a WAR-5. Now with the LR buff and endark it's actually up there on its own without SE Zergs.


Shit has changed and as we go on, outside abyssea, the gaps between jobs are at an all time low and shrinking.

[Greatguardian]

It's pretty funny how you can say "SCH should be able to reach 1.0 cRatio" and then "Sub THF for SA WS" in the same breath. Are you for real, or is this just fantasy? You're also looking at WS damage and ignoring both white damage and WS frequency. Are you be caught in a landslide? There's no escape from reality.

Who even kills WS proc mobs to begin with? Why waste time? You're either wasting TP spamming Shadowstitch, or you're potentially killing things before they proc (Unless it somehow takes more than 2 or 3 real WS to kill something?). Neither of these scenarios is very fun. JA proc mobs followed by a SA Mercy is pretty potent, I usually get 400-450 currency in a duo with my Thf friend that way on top of forgotten items. Their price is crashing too, by the way. At least on my server it is. Now that the market is becoming saturated, people are realizing that they were never worth that much to begin with. It's not hard at all to walk away with 30-50 forgottens in a single run.

I'd like to see a Com Rep mention of AF1+2, though. That's news to me. Source prz? And don't link me to an Amaday thread. I mean an actual, concrete Dev response.

I also never said DRK was weak. In fact, I'm one of the first people to call Urteil, Cyjader1, etc retarded when they make huge b'awwwwing threads about how "weak" DRK is and how they should just cut the job into pieces as their last resort.

I will maintain that PUP is pretty bad, though. Relying on a pet's power boost as a boon for Bst is no good, either. Relying on the pet for DD potential is what got these jobs into trouble in the first place. Pet mechanics in FFXI are pretty bad. They can't receive buffs, which means an extreme loss in potential damage when they're balanced for solo situations.

Even if a pet is stronger than am unbuffed master by a factor of 1.2x, a buffed player will be stronger than an unbuffed master by a factor of 5x or more. When you look at these jobs in the context of large groups where support is available, the gap between the master and a competing DD becomes very, very real - and the pet has no way to even start trying to bridge that gap.

For fun, numbers



Edit: PS, the gaps between jobs haven't shrunk that much. The difference is that you don't see it as much. Why? Because gaps in power are always highlighted when you apply exponential and/or multiplicative growth. You see far less of the very real gap in potential strength these days because most things are done lowman without many buffs.

Contrary to what you may want to believe, this has always been the case. In fact, it's why you saw so many people misunderstand just how very big and very real the gaps between jobs were in the past. They would solo, or lowman without proper support, and claim that the difference between C-tier job #1 and A-tier job #2 was minimal. This is true, when you're solo or lowman without buffs. Unfortunately, those are situations that any given community could honestly care less about. Important situations where job selection actually matters are overwhelmingly large-scale content where you will have access to those buffs and the differences between jobs stand out very distinctly.

[Return1]

It's pretty funny how you can say "SCH should be able to reach 1.0 cRatio" and then "Sub THF for SA WS" in the same breath. Are you for real, or is this just fantasy? You're also looking at WS damage and ignoring both white damage and WS frequency. Are you be caught in a landslide? There's no escape from reality.

Even at 1.0 cRatio, SA adds a +1.0, essentially doubling the damage. For bigger, single fights, TP gain wouldn't really matter since 2 super buffed SCH/THFs would be able to pretty much kill just about any single mob in the game in just a few SA WS each. I'm sorry but even with the slower TP gain, Ukko's WAR wouldn't be able to keep up unless the SCH wasn't receiving buffs and the WAR was. You just failed at understanding game mechanics.


Who even kills WS proc mobs to begin with? Why waste time? You're either wasting TP spamming Shadowstitch, or you're potentially killing things before they proc (Unless it somehow takes more than 2 or 3 real WS to kill something?).

The idea is to kill faster so you get more forgotten items. You kill WS proc mobs because you proc a decent number of them as you kill them for bonus currency. The price falls on forgotten items atm, but it bottoms out at a price higher than the cheap currency by a margin large enough to make them more profitable. People need a whole lot of forgotten items now since everyone can cap all jobs in just a few days, and a lot of the +2 is either useful, or has a good augment.


JA proc mobs followed by a SA Mercy is pretty potent, I usually get 400-450 currency in a duo with my Thf friend that way on top of forgotten items.

Calling Bullshit unless you have pocket mules that you don't count in your "Duo" or you haven't played since the AoE WS/Spell nerf.


I'd like to see a Com Rep mention of AF1+2, though. That's news to me. Source prz? And don't link me to an Amaday thread. I mean an actual, concrete Dev response.


Cannot find link but it was when they announced they would be adding way to make Sky drops, Relic, and AF enhanceable so they would be useful, they never explicitly said +2 and didn't know if it would be ToM or Synergy Augments, but then they went on to put out road maps with limbus adjustments. You'd have to be a tool to think they won't add AF trials/upgrades from upgraded limbus, seeing as they've done it for Relic, Announced it for Nyzul, will implement it in salvage, and added a way to enhance sky drops.


I will maintain that PUP is pretty bad, though. Relying on a pet's power boost as a boon for Bst is no good, either. Relying on the pet for DD potential is what got these jobs into trouble in the first place. Pet mechanics in FFXI are pretty bad. They can't receive buffs, which means an extreme loss in potential damage when they're balanced for solo situations.


I'll cover this with the next thing.


PS, the gaps between jobs haven't shrunk that much. The difference is that you don't see it as much. Why? Because gaps in power are always highlighted when you apply exponential and/or multiplicative growth.

Here's the thing. The only Exponential stat in this game is Haste. Now that capping gear haste is a very realistic on any natural melee, there are no "exponential" advantages between say MNK and PUP. The difference in ATK means less and less the higher your attack gets, same with ACC, and with anything else.

I'll put it bluntly. You're full of shit if you think 2012 MNK vs. PUP isn't a miniscule gap compared to 2006 MNK vs. PUP.

As for the pets not getting buffs, they've really bridged the gap on that. The way they did it for BST is by making the pets base retardedly strong in comparison to the old jug pets, and the ability to chose what WS your pet does instead of spamming bubble curtain. I won't go over Superpowers and such, but as it stands, the gap between BST's melee and other job's has shrunk, even more now with ruinator, and the pets have become a lot stronger as well. We're not talking 3-5% you need a parser to see, We're talking about easily double the damage you could have seen from your pet before.

As for your bet, what content are you speaking of? It makes a world of difference depending on what you're aiming for.

PS: SCH can't use fulcrum pole.

[Unleashhell]

SE already mentioned there will be NO AF+2. There is also a post from the mods on here explaining that the dev team felt it was more important to upgrade Nashira and Homam gear then to make AF+2. Gonna see if I can maybe find that post.

[Unleashhell]

We do not have any concrete plans for artifact armor upgrades. If we were to implement them it would be around the time when we adjust Limbus content. However, we feel that Homam and Nashira adjustments take a higher priority, so we can’t make any promises.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17051-On-Artifact-Armor./page2

[Neisan_Quetz]

Text

If Pup is keeping up with Mnk your Mnk sucks that is all.

[Greatguardian]

Even at 1.0 cRatio, SA adds a +1.0, essentially doubling the damage. For bigger, single fights, TP gain wouldn't really matter since 2 super buffed SCH/THFs would be able to pretty much kill just about any single mob in the game in just a few SA WS each. I'm sorry but even with the slower TP gain, Ukko's WAR wouldn't be able to keep up unless the SCH wasn't receiving buffs and the WAR was. You just failed at understanding game mechanics.

Melee criticals don't add 1.0 pDif.

Edit: Doubling cRatio =/= doubling pDif, too. How did I miss that?


The idea is to kill faster so you get more forgotten items. You kill WS proc mobs because you proc a decent number of them as you kill them for bonus currency. The price falls on forgotten items atm, but it bottoms out at a price higher than the cheap currency by a margin large enough to make them more profitable. People need a whole lot of forgotten items now since everyone can cap all jobs in just a few days, and a lot of the +2 is either useful, or has a good augment.

Could be interesting, but I've never had a problem getting large sums of both on JA proc mobs.


Calling Bullshit unless you have pocket mules that you don't count in your "Duo" or you haven't played since the AoE WS/Spell nerf.

Actually, I never did neo Dyna before the nerf. We have pocket mules, but don't use them in Dynamis.


Cannot find link but it was when they announced they would be adding way to make Sky drops, Relic, and AF enhanceable so they would be useful, they never explicitly said +2 and didn't know if it would be ToM or Synergy Augments, but then they went on to put out road maps with limbus adjustments. You'd have to be a tool to think they won't add AF trials/upgrades from upgraded limbus, seeing as they've done it for Relic, Announced it for Nyzul, will implement it in salvage, and added a way to enhance sky drops.

Already picked up on. They said specifically that they would not do AF1+2.


I'll cover this with the next thing.

Here's the thing. The only Exponential stat in this game is Haste. Now that capping gear haste is a very realistic on any natural melee, there are no "exponential" advantages between say MNK and PUP. The difference in ATK means less and less the higher your attack gets, same with ACC, and with anything else.

I'll put it bluntly. You're full of shit if you think 2012 MNK vs. PUP isn't a miniscule gap compared to 2006 MNK vs. PUP.

As for the pets not getting buffs, they've really bridged the gap on that. The way they did it for BST is by making the pets base retardedly strong in comparison to the old jug pets, and the ability to chose what WS your pet does instead of spamming bubble curtain. I won't go over Superpowers and such, but as it stands, the gap between BST's melee and other job's has shrunk, even more now with ruinator, and the pets have become a lot stronger as well. We're not talking 3-5% you need a parser to see, We're talking about easily double the damage you could have seen from your pet before.

As for your bet, what content are you speaking of? It makes a world of difference depending on what you're aiming for.

PS: SCH can't use fulcrum pole.

The gap between MNK and PUP is pretty damn huge when you add buffs into the equation. Is 2011 PUP better than 2006 PUP? By miles. But 2011 MNK is also miles ahead of 2006 MNK. PUP has received combat skill changes and new gear. MNK has new gear, new WS that shit on the old ones, and Impetus. Giving Pups Smite is barely an increase over the Pummel they've had for years. Giving Mnks Smite is a massive increase over Asuran Fists.

I've already run the math for GalkaPUP over there. A puppet needs to put out over 200 damage/second to bridge the gap between a buffed MNK and a buffed PUP on moderately leveled content (eg, not fodder). That isn't going to happen.

As for SCH not getting Fulcrum? Cool. I couldn't think of any other staves that were half decent for DD, but that just sorta hurts your case even more.

Non-Abyssea, large target, level 106, 200k HP, 120 VIT, 120 AGI, 560 Def, 470 Eva.

I'll put it bluntly: Your information is outdated. You can't claim to know about game mechanics if you learn something a year ago and never keep up with new discoveries and adjustments. There are still conflicting models for pDif distribution being hotly debated these days. You're too fond of vacuum math, and it hurts your case. Spherical chickens don't exist. Context is important. A badass WS can still be useless if the job that's using it can't use it properly or take full advantage of it.

[Alhanelem]

You're too fond of vacuum math, and it hurts your case.Uh, isn't all math here "vaccum math?" Meaning that it describes a perfect situation, when the players are not really capable of executing everything with perfection?

Note: You're right about what you're saying, but technically I would call your math "vaccum math" as well, because it doesn't represent an actual test, it's just running the numbers. For most purposes this is acceptable, of course- just sayin'.

[Greatguardian]

Uh, isn't all math here "vaccum math?" Meaning that it describes a perfect situation, when the players are not really capable of executing everything with perfection?

Note: You're right about what you're saying, but technically I would call your math "vaccum math" as well, because it doesn't represent an actual test, it's just running the numbers. For most purposes this is acceptable, of course- just sayin'.

Consider the following 3 scenarios:

- Throwing a chicken off a building and measuring how fast it falls (parsing)

- Calculating the projected time it would take for a chicken to fall factoring in the chicken's shape, air resistance, wind currents, etc (math)

- Calculating the projected time it would take for a spherical chicken to fall in a vacuum without regards to air resistance, friction, or environmental factors (vacuum math)

There is a reason the term vacuum math is used. It refers to how intro physics students ignore air resistance when learning basic mechanics, eg "Doing math in a vacuum".

[Dart]

@great

you really should bring in your pocket mules. having haste fulltime and not having to use any tp for healing really ups your overall kill speed and maximizes your coins per run, I know that you realize this but I have to emphasis just how much more efficient it's made my own runs. it is a minor annoyance dealing with sight aggro mobs and a second account, but worth it.

[Greatguardian]

@great

you really should bring in your pocket mules. having haste fulltime and not having to use any tp for healing really ups your overall kill speed and maximizes your coins per run, I know that you realize this but I have to emphasis just how much more efficient it's made my own runs. it is a minor annoyance dealing with sight aggro mobs and a second account, but worth it.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I generally keep them out in case I decide to do a second run in the day, personally. Getting double the coinage is nice, if more tedious since it means working with less developed characters.