Requiescat on PLD

[Unleashhell]

Just wanting to know some feedback from fellow PLD out there on how the new WS is working out for you. So far being 5/5 merits I'm not entirely impressed being we are level 99 and get a MND mod WS but trying to make the best out of it.

What kind of gear setups are working best for you? I'm not finding alot of good info on this WS. I'm still tweaking my WS set a little bit.

Currently:

Excalibur (95)
Twilight Helm
Twilight Mail
Valor Gauntlets+2
Soil Gorget
Atheling Mantle
Anguinus Belt
Avant Cuisess+1
Hecatomb Leggings (working on changing this)
Aqualsoul Rings
Brutal Earring
Suppa Earring
Aqua Sachet

[Greatguardian]

4.0 fTP 100% MND WSC and -20% Attack vs 4.0 fTP 30% STR and Critical%

To be honest, I think this WS is likely weaker than Vorpal Blade across the board, which would probably explain your results.

If you really want to mess with it, I'd probably use Grim Cuirass, Centaurus Earring, and maybe Justiciar's Torque personally.

[Unleashhell]

I been meaning to pick up the earring just haven't gotten around to it. Grim Cuirass didnt even came across my mind actually. Something to consider. I'm trying to get Dilaram's Sollerets to replace my heca feet. The torque unfortunately PLD cant use >.<

[Greatguardian]

D'oh! Serves me right. I should have double checked that. In general, unless you're getting minuets, you're probably going to want to roll with higher than normal Attack to try to offset the native penalty on the WS. Since it's %-based, it's really an uphill battle against cRatio, especially on content that you generally see Paladins on (stuff with high Def, etc).

[Unleashhell]

Hmmm. Since I don't have Grim body maybe I should mess around with Ares Body since it has some more ATT on it.

[Motenten]

Just a quick thrown-together check, looks like 25 att ~= 10 mnd. If you got rid of the attack penalty, the ratio is the same, so don't think you're being forced to stack attack to make up for the penalty at the expense of mnd. I doubt anything will be better than Twilight head/body for those slots.

At lvl 99 vs lvl 101 Bukhis, I have Reqs tied with CdC. Changing the player level to 95 to simulate a higher def/level corrected mob, CdC wins handily. However even with the level penalty, Reqs should still easily outdo Vorpal.

[Unleashhell]

What are your thoughts on:

This:
Aquasoul Ring
[Finger] All Races
DEX-3 MND+7 Enhances "Resist Virus" effect
LV 90 All Jobs

Vs.

This:
Tjukurrpa Annulet Rare Ex
[Finger] All Races
MND+5 Sword skill +5 Club skill +5
LV 94 All Jobs

For one of the finger slots.

[Motenten]

Should be near identical. Slight differences in various stats put either one of them a few points ahead of the other, essentially down in the level of 'noise'. If you're not capped on accuracy the Tjukurrpa should easily win, though, so I'd go with that.

[Unleashhell]

Thanks for the info. Maybe tonight or tomorrow I'll see if I can get one of those and try it out.

[saevel]

Just a quick thrown-together check, looks like 25 att ~= 10 mnd. If you got rid of the attack penalty, the ratio is the same, so don't think you're being forced to stack attack to make up for the penalty at the expense of mnd. I doubt anything will be better than Twilight head/body for those slots.

At lvl 99 vs lvl 101 Bukhis, I have Reqs tied with CdC. Changing the player level to 95 to simulate a higher def/level corrected mob, CdC wins handily. However even with the level penalty, Reqs should still easily outdo Vorpal.

This doesn't make sense, your previous entry's had SD > DB due to its -20% penalty even though DB could crit. Not only does CDC crit but Req has a ridiculous -20% attack penalty on it.

Doing Dynamis and using both, I can say without any reservation that CDC > Req every time. CDC's are averaging more then twice what Req is vs DC Leach's (no acid mist on) in Dyna Tav (somewhere around 580 ~ 600 defense). Outside of the ridiculous defense of Dynamis mobs I have CDC doing 1.5~2x more then Req on Voidwatch's, even at 750~850 attack (Meat + Stalwarts on BLU/WAR with zerk up sometimes).

Even using Dia III (when my partner is BLU/DNC so I can go RDM/DNC) to lower the mobs to /check low evasion @650 attack CDC is still crushing Req in damage. And this is on BLU / RDM who both have a ton of MND gear, hell RDM has retarded amounts of MND gear.

4.25 fTP 60% DEX (higher dDex / acc) +15% crit @100
vs
5.0 fTP (looks like a 5 hit but could be a 4) 100% MND no crits -20% attack.

If your having capping or near capping attack vs something without level correction then it's possible for Req to be better, but that's not a realistic scenario at all. PLD / BLU / RDM won't be capping attack on anything that you'd be concerned about your damage on, and once LCF of 5 or more levels sets in Req's damage goes down the toilet.

Did you add +0.2 fTP to each hit of Req on accident?

[Motenten]

Ok, not sure how I got them equal before. Doing some checking now, CdC is about 20% ahead of Reqs until att approaches cap (if Berserk is up; 30% if it's down), at which point they close in to tied or with Reqs a small bit ahead. I must have had a stray bit of additional attack left in somewhere.

Checked, though, and did not accidentally set the fTP to carry through on additional hits.


Comparing point-by-point to see where any differences lie.

Reqs: 4-hit, 1.0 fTP
CdC: 3-hit, 2.25 fTP

Favors CdC a small bit

Reqs: 100% mnd WSC
CdC: 60% dex WSC

Favors Reqs. A decent gear set I put together gives CdC a 73 WSC while Reqs gets a 127. Overall base damage (without fTP) is 148 CdC, 198 Reqs (4 of the difference in WSC is lost to higher fStr with the CdC build), so 33% advantage to Reqs there.

Reqs has 20% att penalty (mitigated slightly with TP), which is about a 15% reduction in damage with Berserk up, to a 23% reduction in damage with Berserk down (with a relatively high cRatio either way). Penalty effect increases as cRatio goes down.

CdC has crits, which you can expect to add at least 20% to weaponskill damage.


The high WSC makes up for a good chunk of the difference, but overall the weaponskill has serious issues.

Even at its worst, it should still beat Vorpal, but that's hardly high praise.

[saevel]

Actual in-game use has shown Req losing to vorpal, mostly due to attack issues. I can see Req beating vorpal on things with low defense and no LCF, the attack penalty is mostly irrelevant at that point and crits mean less. But once your start approaching 1.5 and less then that penalty really starts to rape your damage. Also did your gear set automatically assume things like capped accuracy / fSTR / dDex?

Most of the things we can be expected to fight and have damage matter have 450 ~ 470 or so defense. High defense mobs tend to have 550ish. At 800 attack (BLU/WAR food + zerk) your looking at 1.77 Ratio before LCF and ~1.5 on a regular monster 5 levels higher. 1.45 on a high defense mob and 1.2 if it's 5 levels higher. With Req that 800 attack turns into 640 attack for 1.42 on the EM and 1.17 if it's 5 levels higher. That's a 24% drop on the EM and 28% on the +5 level monster. Anything that crits will bump that number even higher due to the crits raising the Ratio so much.

What are the exact numbers your feeding to get Req nearing CDC and beating Vorpal. There is something either not right in there, or some unrealistic situations. I'm saying this because I have all three of those WS's along with corresponding builds for them and Req never gears near Vorpal much less CDC. I'm main handing a 90 Almace and off handing the 99 Shikagar +11 STR +22 Attack weapon. How much DA / +Crit are you using, is it just a random number or from available gear?

In your previous SD vs DB comparison I dug through your math and saw how much the -20% attack was crippling a STR based four hit critical Polearm WS. There would be an even greater amount of crippling going on here (4+1 100% MND WS -20% attack vs 4+1 30% STR Critical Hit WS vs 4.25 + 1 60% DEX Critical WS).

[Ophannus]

Does CDC have an attack bonus? I always see it rocking things it should be failing on even without temps and on RDM.

[saevel]

Does CDC have an attack bonus? I always see it rocking things it should be failing on even without temps and on RDM.

Exact opposite. It has a hefty attack penalty to the tune of Attack -20%. Thus if you have 650 attack, then your really WSing with 520 attack. Four hits at 100% MND WSC isn't bad, it's actually pretty decent for jobs that have tons of MND gear, but the attack penalty makes it nearly useless vs anything mildly difficult. It's only saving grace so far is that it ignores some resistances like Invincible and the -DT from slimes and undead.

[Arcon]

Does CDC have an attack bonus? I always see it rocking things it should be failing on even without temps and on RDM.

Exact opposite. [..]

I think you misread? He was asking about CDC, not Requiescat.

[saevel]

I think you misread? He was asking about CDC, not Requiescat.

Yeah just noticed that, we were talking about Req.

As far as I know CDC doesn't have one, but wouldn't surprise me if it did. It does have the usual +15% crit at 100, which when stacked with high amounts of dDEX lead to crits on nearly half the hits. It's first hit is also 2.25 fTP and has the usual acc bonus that first hits tend to get. If that hit crit's then your looking at a big CDC number, if it doesn't then it's a mediocre number, and if it miss's then it's a low number.

It's more a combination of being a high DEX modded Crit WS that just happens to have a powerful first hit.

[Ophannus]

Well when I see a 2.5 modifier I view it as being really 2 hits of 1.0 modifier. So if CDC is a 2.5 for the first hit and 1.0 for the extra 2 hits, it's really similar to Vorpal which is 1.0 for 4 hits, and I've seen some awfully impressive CDCs in VW that exceed or match something like Drakesbane which is done from a weapon with double the base damage, where attack shouldn't be an issue with Bard and Stalwarts.

[saevel]

Well when I see a 2.5 modifier I view it as being really 2 hits of 1.0 modifier. So if CDC is a 2.5 for the first hit and 1.0 for the extra 2 hits, it's really similar to Vorpal which is 1.0 for 4 hits, and I've seen some awfully impressive CDCs in VW that exceed or match something like Drakesbane which is done from a weapon with double the base damage, where attack shouldn't be an issue with Bard and Stalwarts.

Not quite. For doing napkin math adding all the fTP valued together is fine (2.25 is CDC btw not 2.5). CDC is three hits first being 2.25, so 2.25 +1 +1 for 4.25 worth of fTP. It has a critical hit bonus of approx 15% at 100TP and a 60% DEX WSC. Thing is the first hit has an acc bonus like most WS's do, so 95% hit on that 2.25 fTP hit. This isn't possible for two 1.0 fTP hits as the highest hit change you'll have is 90.25% (.95^2). CDC's crits are what cause it to shine so much, especially if your procing DA's.

[Greatguardian]

The acc bonus isn't doing anything for the first hit if you're assuming that the subsequent hits have 95% acc each anyways. I'm not really sure what you're trying to demonstrate. Maybe that the 2.25 fTp on first hit makes it roughly equivalent in value to both of the subsequent 1.0 fTP hits combined? Understandable, but the acc bonus doesn't come into play here. Just accuracy's cap.

Probably just nitpicking.

[Dragonlord]

I've seen some awfully impressive CDCs in VW that exceed or match something like Drakesbane which is done from a weapon with double the base damage, where attack shouldn't be an issue with Bard and Stalwarts.

This is due to drakesbane having a -20% atk penalty just like requiescat. In addition drakesbane has some where between a 5%-10% crit rate bonus where CDC has 15%. This is why CDC can pull ahead of drakes on high end mobs.

[Alerith]

For me, Requiescat is slightly under Vorpal Blade. Vorpal Blade always performs nicely when it crits, and Requiescat is decent damage on a consistent basis.

That being said, Vorpal Blade (if you don't have CDC) is going to be your better option unless you're trying to bypass physical defenses or fighting elementals.

It has it's uses, but it's a very situational WS.

[Motenten]

Ok, for the Req/Vorpal comparison, this is what I have set up:

Shamshir +3 (str)/shield (ie: no Almace, shield of no particular DD benefit)

Str is a mod for Vorpal, not Reqs, so this should favor Vorpal slightly.

Vorpal gear set:

Flame Sachet
Mekira-oto +1
Gorget
Brutal
Vulcan (3 str)
Twilight
Creed +2
Rajas
Pyrosoul
Atheling
Anguinus (beir +1 would be better for this particular target, but not sure you want to use in general)
Ogier
Perle

Str +71, Att +100, Acc +70 (capped acc), Skill +7


Reqs gear set:

Aqua Sachet
Twilight
Aife's
Brutal
Neptune (3 mnd)
Twilight
Valor +2
Aquasoul
Tjukurrpa
Atheling
Cascade
Ogier
Ogier

Mnd +68, Att +85, Acc +45 (capped acc), Skill +5



Set up vs fake Qilin target (ie: moderately difficult mob, high defense, etc). Various stats:

cRatio:
Vorpal: 1.2869
Reqs: 0.9278

fStr:
Vorpal: +12
Reqs: +3

Crit rate:
Vorpal is floored.
Reqs doesn't matter

Final base damage:
Vorpal: 111
Reqs: 187


Average damage:
Vorpal: 726
Reqs: 747


Granted the above are about as optimal of gear sets as I can make. If I get rid of the Ogier, dropped the Mekira to the NQ, and allow for Valor+2 hands/legs and other gear that either I personally already have or can be readily bought on the AH, average is 698 Vorpal to 712 Reqs.

Without a specialized build they'll probably end up about tied.

[Aeonk]

Ok, for the Req/Vorpal comparison, this is what I have set up:

Shamshir +3 (str)/shield (ie: no Almace, shield of no particular DD benefit)

Str is a mod for Vorpal, not Reqs, so this should favor Vorpal slightly.

Vorpal gear set:

Flame Sachet
Mekira-oto +1
Gorget
Brutal
Vulcan (3 str)
Twilight
Creed +2
Rajas
Pyrosoul
Atheling
Anguinus (beir +1 would be better for this particular target, but not sure you want to use in general)
Ogier
Perle

Str +71, Att +100, Acc +70 (capped acc), Skill +7


Reqs gear set:

Aqua Sachet
Twilight
Aife's
Brutal
Neptune (3 mnd)
Twilight
Valor +2
Aquasoul
Tjukurrpa
Atheling
Cascade
Ogier
Ogier

Mnd +68, Att +85, Acc +45 (capped acc), Skill +5



Set up vs fake Qilin target (ie: moderately difficult mob, high defense, etc). Various stats:

cRatio:
Vorpal: 1.2869
Reqs: 0.9278

fStr:
Vorpal: +12
Reqs: +3

Crit rate:
Vorpal is floored.
Reqs doesn't matter

Final base damage:
Vorpal: 111
Reqs: 187


Average damage:
Vorpal: 726
Reqs: 747


Granted the above are about as optimal of gear sets as I can make. If I get rid of the Ogier, dropped the Mekira to the NQ, and allow for Valor+2 hands/legs and other gear that either I personally already have or can be readily bought on the AH, average is 698 Vorpal to 712 Reqs.

Without a specialized build they'll probably end up about tied.
Wouldn't a Rancor collar be better for vorpal than the sea gorget?

[Motenten]

Wouldn't a Rancor collar be better for vorpal than the sea gorget?

Woops, yep. Raises max build to 735, and NQ build to 706.

[saevel]

How would the acc / atk from +skill off Supa compare to the +3 STR ?

Just a question. It confirms that Vorpal and Req are about even, with Vorpal being favored for criticals. Does adding another hit (assuming some /NIN or /DNC setups) change anything, just for the lulz.

[Greatguardian]

I'd imagine going from 5 fTP to 6 fTP would be a 20% damage increase for Req, and going from 4 fTP to 5 fTP would be a 25% damage increase for Vorpal assuming that the offhand sword has the same damage rating as the mainhand.

Everything else like attack, acc, etc would just come out in the averaging wash and depend on what stats you assign to the offhand sword.

[Motenten]

With Joyeuse, HQ build (what I last left it on):
Vorpal: 875
Reqs: 903

With a second str Shamshir:
Vorpal: 985
Reqs: 985

[Hokuten85]

So basically, what everyone is saying is that this WS is junk for all practical purposes. It seems like it only becomes worth while on weaker mobs and even then it's only slightly a head. I'm pretty sure putting the same effort into gearing for Sanguine Blade would put it's damage way a head for weaker mob scenarios...and it drains HP.

I don't see any scenario's where this WS is worth it.

[Babekeke]

How would the MND ToM sword play out on requiescat vs the STR one? I realise that there's a lot of DPS lost from 11 STR and 22 att, but in something like VW with a lot of AOE spam the MDB would surely come in handy.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I have MDB Shikargar anywhere from 4-15% behind assuming uncapped attack.

[Babekeke]

I have MDB Shikargar anywhere from 4-15% behind assuming uncapped attack.

Is that just for WS?

[Neisan_Quetz]

overall, Pld isn't exactly a job rolling in attack buffs outside of /war and zerk. MDB... I suppose you can argue it, but it's really just a statless Shikargar when you get down to it. If you're taking a ton of damage from magical attacks, I really don't see using a MDB sword as being enough over the usual capped MDT set (assuming you're still taking a ton in said MDT set with shell up).

[Babekeke]

overall, Pld isn't exactly a job rolling in attack buffs outside of /war and zerk. MDB... I suppose you can argue it, but it's really just a statless Shikargar when you get down to it. If you're taking a ton of damage from magical attacks, I really don't see using a MDB sword as being enough over the usual capped MDT set (assuming you're still taking a ton in said MDT set with shell up).

But MDB isn't counted as part of the 50% MDT cap, am I right?

[Arcon]

But MDB isn't counted as part of the 50% MDT cap, am I right?

Correct. MDB is calculated seperately and allows you to reduce magical damage further than the flat 50% cap for MDT. It is also not as potent as MDT, and has diminishing returns. However, if MDT is capped already, MDB is the next thing to gear for (if your inventory allows it).

[Motenten]

So all those estimates I made of Requiescat? Was wrong. Messed up the spreadsheet, and gave it 5 hits -including- offhand, rather than 5 hits -plus- offhand. So the stuff where it's tieing with Vorpal, it should be getting an extra hit out of it (about +16% to +20% damage). Will look more closely at it later.

[saevel]

Does the fTP value carry over on all hits? That would make a significant difference in damage done. I've had people telling me it does, but as I don't have the WS merited I can't check myself.

[Motenten]

I don't believe so. Its base fTP is 1.0, and I don't know of any weaponskill with hits that carry over that has an fTP of 1.0 or higher.

[Dragonlord]

I don't believe so. Its base fTP is 1.0, and I don't know of any weaponskill with hits that carry over that has an fTP of 1.0 or higher.

Yep, only the new merit WS that got nerfed with fTP below 1.0 carry across all hits. In addition, the ele gorgets'/belts' +0.1fTP also carry over to all hits.

[Transmit]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104123-Weapon-Skills?p=5047381&viewfull=1#post5047381

Apparently fTP does transfer to all hits of Requiescat.

[saevel]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/104123-Weapon-Skills?p=5047381&viewfull=1#post5047381

Apparently fTP does transfer to all hits of Requiescat.

If true, then that changes everything. The WS might actually be decent. Yet ... actual in-game usage has shown it to be complete crap. So are we missing some component involved?

[Dragonlord]

If true, then that changes everything. The WS might actually be decent. Yet ... actual in-game usage has shown it to be complete crap. So are we missing some component involved?

It's good for breaking pil's shield. That's about the only time i use it. But with the recent fTP find, it might be the best WS for those without almace outside of abyssea. Gorget/belt make it into a 6 fTP WS w/ a 100% mod (even though it is mnd, it beats vorpal's 30% str). Those with CDC, just use it on physical resistant/immune mobs.