Questions about ToS and Windower

[Lukielucas]

I know that this is a general question WHICH i would really love to get answered by the developer / producer as i think it's a fair question to ask

Regarding Windower and how EU and NA players who could speak Japanese, why is it that if we try and do this method, that we could get suspended for such an action when all we're merely doing is tryin' to do is improve communications between players cos let face it... the auto translate can only do so much

I personally find this quite unfair, while i know windower can be subject to abuse, have the developers ever thought of adding this option so that we actually have a way to do this without breaching the ToS.... It was something that came to me in thought....

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Huh? I'm lost.

Windowed mode does exist in FFXI.

[Lukielucas]

not talkin' about windowed mode... windower is a 3rd party app which people use to enable the EU / NA people to do added stuff which is against the rules but i have found that some people only do it so they can speak both english and japanese which i think it's actually fair since we're denied that option, I myself don't have the application but if it was allowed for me to do so, i would be there in a instance just so i can speak japanese to other's should i decide to do so

[Daniel_Hatcher]

not talkin' about windowed mode... windower is a 3rd party app which people use to enable the EU / NA people to do added stuff which is against the rules but i have found that some people only do it so they can speak both english and japanese which i think it's actually fair since we're denied that option, I myself don't have the application but if it was allowed for me to do so, i would be there in a instance just so i can speak japanese to other's should i decide to do so

I know what Windower is, what I don't see if how it can help with the language barrier. It's the equivalent of just having a browser opened with a translator...!?

[Seriha]

Non-Japanese players, by default, don't have access to the IME interface that allows them to talk in all the funny squiggles we see our friends from the Far East use. In comparison, they're actually able to type English characters, e v e n i f t h e y w i n d u p w e i r d l y s p a c e d o u t. Unfortunately, a non-JP account caught using JP characters risks punishment, because it's obvious they tinkered with the client to do so.

[Lukielucas]

with FFXI as it's the way it is, for EU and NA users they cannot input Kanji Hiragana Katakana unless they use windower which enables them to do this, but because of this, they would get suspended due to the fact that they are using a 3rd party application along with FFXI (PC User's) which is against the ToS which is why i'm stating that it's slightly unfair to EU/NA users who can speak japanese, who are resorted in many ways to use Rōmaji which i'll admit it's very rare for me to see on FFXI

hope what i'm trying to say makes sense

[Lukielucas]

Non-Japanese players, by default, don't have access to the IME interface that allows them to talk in all the funny squiggles we see our friends from the Far East use. In comparison, they're actually able to type English characters, e v e n i f t h e y w i n d u p w e i r d l y s p a c e d o u t. Unfortunately, a non-JP account caught using JP characters risks punishment, because it's obvious they tinkered with the client to do so.

But we do have the option to "install" the IME interface should we want to add that feature

[Daniel_Hatcher]

with FFXI as it's the way it is, for EU and NA users they cannot input Kanji Hiragana Katakana unless they use windower which enables them to do this, but because of this, they would get suspended due to the fact that they are using a 3rd party application along with FFXI (PC User's) which is against the ToS which is why i'm stating that it's slightly unfair to EU/NA users who can speak japanese, who are resorted in many ways to use Rōmaji which i'll admit it's very rare for me to see on FFXI

hope what i'm trying to say makes sense

Oh, I see. Never tried to type Japanese to be honest.

[Ilax]

Doubt SE would ban for this, in fact they tolerate windower as far i know, or they would need to ban 50% of they player base. But don't ask them if is "OK" or "SAFE" as is again they ToS. Just don't push your luck with stuff that would give you "game advantage" again other player.

[Tohihroyu]

Its already been answered by a GM in a topic exactly like this one.

I don't think they really bother anymore unless you are using some of the borderline botting aps, most of my friends tell me that GM's told them that they don't care anymore...yet to see a screenshot though >_>

[Meyi]

Doubt SE would ban for this, in fact they tolerate windower as far i know, or they would need to ban 50% of they player base. But don't ask them if is "OK" or "SAFE" as is again they ToS. Just don't push your luck with stuff that would give you "game advantage" again other player.

This is direct proof that someone is using Windower, though. In general it's difficult to differentiate someone using windower and someone not using windower, unless they dug through the files installed. With direct proof comes punishment. Technically, this is a "game advantage" as someone who can speak Japanese and type in it now has advantage over people who can speak Japanese but cannot type in it (PC legit/PS2/XBox360).

I've personally argued for either being able to purchase the usage of the IME as a foreigner or allowing us to copy/paste into legit windowed mode myself. Anything to allow us to speak to our Japanese friends more successfully is welcome in my book. The biggest reason they ignore us is because they don't want to deal with English and Romaji, and I can't say that I blame them (though it does piss me off when auto-translate goes ignored, but I digress)...

Basically, Windower is against the ToS. If you make it blatantly obvious that you use it, I'm fairly sure they'll do something about it. Using Japanese on a client that is not Japanese is a good way to shout out your console of choice. From what I've witnessed, it seems in terms of Windower itself, it's a "don't tell don't ban" kind of policy.

Odds are high this topic will be locked soon for guideline boundary material. At least you'll know there are people supporting Japanese IME for nonJapanese players.

[Greatguardian]

The official stance will always be that it's against the rules. No one working for the company will ever be allowed to tell you differently, period. People have been suspended/banned because of JP text in their bazaars/search comments in the past, though this mostly happened to people who were GM'd maliciously by people who didn't like them.

If you want the honest, practical truth? No one is going to care one bit. If you want the official stance? It's against the rules, and they'll never, ever say otherwise.

[Alhanelem]

I know that this is a general question WHICH i would really love to get answered by the developer / producer as i think it's a fair question to askThe only answer you will get from SE about any third party tool is "it's not allowed." However, the one in question is so prevalent that it's basically become a "don't ask, don't tell" or "It's not fight club, don't talk about it" sort of thing.

Since the only way they can know someone is using it is to have someone tattle-tale on you (They cannot and do not ever scan your computer for programs) It's hard to catch people anyway.

[Greatguardian]

Well, they used to scan our PCs for third party tool usage back in '04-ish But there was such a huge uproar about privacy invasion that they quietly removed that feature almost immediately. Fun fact for the day~

[RAIST]

Technically, this is a "game advantage" as someone who can speak Japanese and type in it now has advantage over people who can speak Japanese but cannot type in it (PC legit/PS2/XBox360).

This is no more an advantage than someone who can speak/read/type in French, German, Spanish, or the Queen's English....

There are also those JP players who can read/speak/type english to some capacity as well... so, by that comparison you would be labeling those "legit" JP players as cheaters.

On this particular issue, being able to type in non-arabic characters for an Eastern language in an NA/EU client is not breaking the game....if anything, it is more leveling the playing field.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Well, they used to scan our PCs for third party tool usage back in '04-ish But there was such a huge uproar about privacy invasion that they quietly removed that feature almost immediately. Fun fact for the day~

As they should have, you don't give them, in the same sense when you install any software you don't give them the right to scan anything on your computer.



Its already been answered by a GM in a topic exactly like this one.

I don't think they really bother anymore unless you are using some of the borderline botting aps, most of my friends tell me that GM's told them that they don't care anymore...yet to see a screenshot though >_>

They would never say that.

Truth be told, they probably don't care, they still wouldn't come straight out and say they don't though.

[Meyi]

Well, they used to scan our PCs for third party tool usage back in '04-ish But there was such a huge uproar about privacy invasion that they quietly removed that feature almost immediately. Fun fact for the day~

I remember when the Windower board was pretty worried because some specific file used by Windower was being scanned for. That was back when the administration said to run updates in normal mode.

[Haruka-Ash]

Non-Japanese players, by default, don't have access to the IME interface that allows them to talk in all the funny squiggles we see our friends from the Far East use. In comparison, they're actually able to type English characters, e v e n i f t h e y w i n d u p w e i r d l y s p a c e d o u t. Unfortunately, a non-JP account caught using JP characters risks punishment, because it's obvious they tinkered with the client to do so.

what if i use a japanese console and japanese client?

[Zumi]

SE didn't pay MS licensing fees to license IME for the NA/EU versions of FFXI so therefore they are disabled. They didn't want to pay the fees for the NA/EU version cause it would just cost them more money for a feature most NA/EU users would not use.

Therefore it would be somewhat illegal to use Windower to enable IME in FFXI when it is disabled by design.

[Rohelius]

I use my phone to translate J>E E>J and i always just use Romaji since there is no real need to use the in-game translate for everything, i also don't know what the difference is between it and actual Japanese characters since i don't speak it, but its never failed to get an answer from people so i don't see why you need Windower for something available from the internet with the games Windowed mode.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand windower is marketed just like steroids, they call it a "Enhancement" and not a edge which i think is just total BS since its clearly an edge over anyone not using it.

One click of a button and you can change every single equip for a spell/ws/day/weather you name it while if you play by the rules you only have 5 lines for commands....

Don't be lazy and play by the rules.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

what if i use a japanese console and japanese client?If you have the JP version of the game, you will be able to imput JP text assuming your system is capable of doing so.
Unless these people were lying and just using windower plugins. lol

[Lafaiel]

Whats so wrong with with wanting to talk to your friends if you speak japanese? My jp friend can speak english very well and can switch between both easily, google translate does not come close to translating a conversation in japanese and is not feasable for fast replies.

This game has been out for a long time and despite the jp only crowd there have been some amazing freindships between jp and na players, some people have learned japanese just for that reason, no need to bedgrudge them the gift of conversation with a friend.

Unless you're botting or hacking SE is not going to suspend you for windower.

[Greatguardian]

Botting and hacking are essentially independent of Windower so they will probably never ban you for Windower at all.

They'll just ban you for botting and hacking.

[Lafaiel]

Botting and hacking are essentially independent of Windower so they will probably never ban you for Windower at all.

They'll just ban you for botting and hacking.

Pretty much, I first though this thread was a necro from 05 or something, but then I rememberded this forum only came about recently.

[Meyi]

One click of a button and you can change every single equip for a spell/ws/day/weather you name it while if you play by the rules you only have 5 lines for commands....

Or you could be cool like me and use 2 macros to switch all of your gear. :) Not hard, I promise.

[Rohelius]

Unless you're botting or hacking SE is not going to suspend you for windower.

That's not correct.


Botting and hacking are essentially independent of Windower so they will probably never ban you for Windower at all.

They'll just ban you for botting and hacking.

GM Skirata says:

"Hello everyone and thank you all for posting your views on this matter. Just to clarify, the use of any third party program that interacts with the game would be a violation, which can be reviewed in the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement under sections 2.1, 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7. Should you have evidence of any third party program being used, you can report it to the GMs or the Special Task Force directly here. We will be closing the thread at this time, since the initial question has been answered. Thank you for your inquiry into our policies, and have a great day."

[Alhanelem]

That's not correct.



GM Skirata says:

"Hello everyone and thank you all for posting your views on this matter. Just to clarify, the use of any third party program that interacts with the game would be a violation, which can be reviewed in the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement under sections 2.1, 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7. Should you have evidence of any third party program being used, you can report it to the GMs or the Special Task Force directly here. We will be closing the thread at this time, since the initial question has been answered. Thank you for your inquiry into our policies, and have a great day."They aren't talking about what the rules say. They're talking about what happens in practice.

For many things like windower, it can't be proven directly that someone is using it unless they specifically admit to using it. Thus, unless you get tattled on, SE doesn't have much to go on. They do not (whether they did at one time or not) scan your computer and since they can't actively find and stop people using windower, it is rare for action to actually be taken, even though it's explicitly against the rules.

You're right that it's completely a rule transgression. However, it is rare that this goes noticed.

[Prothscar]

Don't know if they'd be too comfortable banning 2/5 (probably much more) or so of their playerbase for using Windower either.

[Zhronne]

Non-Japanese players, by default, don't have access to the IME interface that allows them to talk in all the funny squiggles we see our friends from the Far East use. In comparison, they're actually able to type English characters, e v e n i f t h e y w i n d u p w e i r d l y s p a c e d o u t. Unfortunately, a non-JP account caught using JP characters risks punishment, because it's obvious they tinkered with the client to do so.
It's not really that obvious, you can use IME on X360 with an EU account and an EU copy of the game on an EU console with an EU keyboard.

[Zhronne]

Concerning the Windower general issue, there's clearly an aquiescence from SE on its regards.
Do you think it could be any other way after so many years, with so many people using it? And how many have been banned because of it?

At the same time they can't come upfront and "officially" say they agree to a moderate use of Windower, it's like in politics, there are things you just cannot say for many reasons.
As long as you do the basic things with Windower and don't play too much with "strange toys", you have nothing to worry about.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's not correct.



GM Skirata says:

"Hello everyone and thank you all for posting your views on this matter. Just to clarify, the use of any third party program that interacts with the game would be a violation, which can be reviewed in the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement under sections 2.1, 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7. Should you have evidence of any third party program being used, you can report it to the GMs or the Special Task Force directly here. We will be closing the thread at this time, since the initial question has been answered. Thank you for your inquiry into our policies, and have a great day."

SE will ban you if you openly use Windower, obviously. It's just most likely true their focus is people that Hack and Bot, with bans being issued for Windower if they find you using it.


I use my phone to translate J>E E>J and i always just use Romaji since there is no real need to use the in-game translate for everything, i also don't know what the difference is between it and actual Japanese characters since i don't speak it, but its never failed to get an answer from people so i don't see why you need Windower for something available from the internet with the games Windowed mode.

Aaaaaaaaaaaand windower is marketed just like steroids, they call it a "Enhancement" and not a edge which i think is just total BS since its clearly an edge over anyone not using it.

One click of a button and you can change every single equip for a spell/ws/day/weather you name it while if you play by the rules you only have 5 lines for commands....

Don't be lazy and play by the rules.

You can't use JAP in the English client, regardless what method you use to translate it.

You can't Copy + Paste in FFXI, and you can't type in JAP, so I'd love to know how you do. The only way is the JAP client, and you're not meant to really use that if you're English.

[Runespider]

Not much point asking for a rep or higher repsonse, even the community reps we have post more on the XIV forum than here XD

The XI playerbase for Square are just the annoying subscribers that refuse to do what they want and quietly move over to FFXIV like they want us to.

[FrankReynolds]

SE will ban you if you openly use Windower, obviously. It's just most likely true their focus is people that Hack and Bot, with bans being issued for Windower if they find you using it.



You can't use JAP in the English client, regardless what method you use to translate it.

You can't Copy + Paste in FFXI, and you can't type in JAP, so I'd love to know how you do. The only way is the JAP client, and you're not meant to really use that if you're English.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese

he translates it into romaji, and then types in the translation.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Japanese

he translates it into romaji, and then types in the translation.

Ah, I see.

[Mifaco]

If you type in Romaji, the JP will treat you the same as typing in English - wanting nothing to do with you.

[FrankReynolds]

If you type in Romaji, the JP will treat you the same as typing in English - wanting nothing to do with you.

I dunno, back before NA release, that was about all you could do and people got along. Turns out Japanese people are just like any other nationality. Some are a-holes, some are really cool.

EDIT: However, A-holes tend to be more vocal and get noticed more.

[Greatguardian]

That's not correct.

Yes it is.


GM Skirata says:

"Hello everyone and thank you all for posting your views on this matter. Just to clarify, the use of any third party program that interacts with the game would be a violation, which can be reviewed in the FINAL FANTASY XI User Agreement under sections 2.1, 2.5, 2.6, and 2.7. Should you have evidence of any third party program being used, you can report it to the GMs or the Special Task Force directly here. We will be closing the thread at this time, since the initial question has been answered. Thank you for your inquiry into our policies, and have a great day."

Already covered:


The official stance will always be that it's against the rules. No one working for the company will ever be allowed to tell you differently, period. People have been suspended/banned because of JP text in their bazaars/search comments in the past, though this mostly happened to people who were GM'd maliciously by people who didn't like them.

If you want the honest, practical truth? No one is going to care one bit. If you want the official stance? It's against the rules, and they'll never, ever say otherwise.

[Byrth]

This is direct proof that someone is using Windower, though. In general it's difficult to differentiate someone using windower and someone not using windower, unless they dug through the files installed.

This is untrue, and it's a huge misconception. If SE did any statistical analysis of the data that is sent to their servers it would be immediately obvious who is using the plugins like Spellcast, Gearcollector, Blinkmenot, Lightluggage, etc. I bet I could write a stupid little script that would sort through their data and label people who automate those functions and those who don't that's like 99% accurate within a day. They don't prosecute people for it because they're choosing not to, not because they somehow can't. Anyone who was around for the gardening bans knows they have no problem with banning a guiltless 1%. Whatever, bravo for SE.

.... welllllll.... these are the people who took almost a decade to invent moogle storage slips, which pretty much use a 101-level programming trick.

Honestly though, I have a friend who was a quasi-diehard anti-Spellcast guy for years. He switched and started using spellcast in his twilight days and loved it, then quit about a year later. The first thing he said when I told him FFXI might be coming out for PSVita last week, "That sounds great and it would be cool to be able to pick it up and play wherever, but spellcast won't work on it so I don't really feel like playing." Windower and its plugins are a huge asset to SE in terms of player retention and they apparently recognize it enough to not ban for it.

[FrankReynolds]

This is untrue, and it's a huge misconception. If SE did any statistical analysis of the data that is sent to their servers it would be immediately obvious who is using the plugins like Spellcast, Gearcollector, Blinkmenot, Lightluggage, etc. I bet I could write a stupid little script that would sort through their data and label people who automate those functions and those who don't that's like 99% accurate within a day. They don't prosecute people for it because they're choosing not to, not because they somehow can't. Anyone who was around for the gardening bans knows they have no problem with banning a guiltless 1%. Whatever, bravo for SE.

.... welllllll.... these are the people who took almost a decade to invent moogle storage slips, which pretty much use a 101-level programming trick.

Honestly though, I have a friend who was a quasi-diehard anti-Spellcast guy for years. He switched and started using spellcast in his twilight days and love it, then quit about a year later. The first thing he said when I told him FFXI might be coming out for PSVita last week, "That sounds great and it would be cool to be able to pick it up and play wherever, but spellcast won't work on it so I don't really feel like playing." Windower and its plugins are a huge asset to SE in terms of player retention and they apparently recognize it enough to not ban for it.

They said this about the new UI in the Final Fantasy XIV 2.0 overview:



Therefore, we have chosen to
completely rebuild the UI system
core in conjunction with the server
system updates. Not only will this
allow us to implement new features,
but also significantly improve
response times and open the door
for user-made add-ons.
*What are Add-ons?
Add-ons are user-generated UI content
created by fans from around the world for
use within a company-developed game. Addons are customizable, and help to enhance
the overall gameplay experience

Just a shot in the dark, but I get the impression that they are trying to incorporate some sort of official windower plugin thingy here. At any rate, it appears that they have warmed to the idea of players controlling the interface to some degree.

[Meyi]

This is untrue, and it's a huge misconception. If SE did any statistical analysis of the data that is sent to their servers it would be immediately obvious who is using the plugins like Spellcast, Gearcollector, Blinkmenot, Lightluggage, etc. I bet I could write a stupid little script that would sort through their data and label people who automate those functions and those who don't that's like 99% accurate within a day. They don't prosecute people for it because they're choosing not to, not because they somehow can't. Anyone who was around for the gardening bans knows they have no problem with banning a guiltless 1%. Whatever, bravo for SE.

-sigh- I meant Windower itself, not the plugins that some people choose to use with it. :/


Honestly though, I have a friend who was a quasi-diehard anti-Spellcast guy for years. He switched and started using spellcast in his twilight days and loved it, then quit about a year later. The first thing he said when I told him FFXI might be coming out for PSVita last week, "That sounds great and it would be cool to be able to pick it up and play wherever, but spellcast won't work on it so I don't really feel like playing." Windower and its plugins are a huge asset to SE in terms of player retention and they apparently recognize it enough to not ban for it.

I agree.

[Alhanelem]

Again: First rule about Fight Club is don't talk about Fight Club. Don't ask, Don't tell.

[Sharnak]

I play with JP ppl sometime, I just keep use <Auto Translate> and try to understand what they talk in jp. As long as you can understand what they talk, and do right thing on the right time. You will no need any type in katakana or kanji just some Romanji and <Auto Translate> is already fine to them.

[Yarly]

what's windower?

[Juilan]

with FFXI as it's the way it is, for EU and NA users they cannot input Kanji Hiragana Katakana unless they use windower which enables them to do this, but because of this, they would get suspended due to the fact that they are using a 3rd party application along with FFXI (PC User's) which is against the ToS which is why i'm stating that it's slightly unfair to EU/NA users who can speak japanese, who are resorted in many ways to use Rōmaji which i'll admit it's very rare for me to see on FFXI

hope what i'm trying to say makes sense
i have a jp client i use some times, they install to square soft in Program File(x86) to type in japanese, but you can also use this to have more than PoL log ins on the computer... which is another thing that is just moronic to still have in place

[Tohihroyu]

I play with JP ppl sometime, I just keep use <Auto Translate> and try to understand what they talk in jp. As long as you can understand what they talk, and do right thing on the right time. You will no need any type in katakana or kanji just some Romanji and <Auto Translate> is already fine to them.

But as someone said before 9/10 times you use Romaji they want nothing to do with you, but why? cause of weeaboo spamming jp players with "KAWAII DESU SUGIOI NI NEKO-CHAN ^______^ n__n" (why I hate that Blue bon bon moogle... why WHY did devs think it was good to make a moogle speak weeaboo?!) or talking about animu & mangos with them?

The Japanese players I been in parties & Magian trials with are fine with English, though for some things you might need to explain like "PH"

Anyway wonder how many pages this will last till it gets locked. Seems much more like a topic about wanting to have an easier time communicating with Japanese players then...not blinking with gear swapping & longer macro lists, or at least its what its turning into.

[Meyi]

But as someone said before 9/10 times you use Romaji they want nothing to do with you, but why? cause of weeaboo spamming jp players with "KAWAII DESU SUGIOI NI NEKO-CHAN ^______^ n__n"

No. It's because it's English characters which they want nothing to do with. It's difficult to read and in a fast paced event they don't want to slow down to decipher what someone is saying to them.

Weeaboo has nothing to do with it.

[Lukielucas]

I play with JP ppl sometime, I just keep use <Auto Translate> and try to understand what they talk in jp. As long as you can understand what they talk, and do right thing on the right time. You will no need any type in katakana or kanji just some Romanji and <Auto Translate> is already fine to them.

But you can only do so much with <auto translate>, this is what this discussion is about, JP can only understand us to a limit hence why sometimes JP play with JP only because they don't need to keep using auto translate to communicate and can speak in their own native language and yet for those who can speak english and japanese are punished in a way because if we try to modify so we can speak in both language, we could get suspended or worst case, banned from FFXI which again brings me back to the point of it's being unfair

[Lukielucas]

No. It's because it's English characters which they want nothing to do with. It's difficult to read and in a fast paced event they don't want to slow down to decipher what someone is saying to them.

Weeaboo has nothing to do with it.

Agreed cos even if they use the English letters, you can tell that they are trying to say something in English cos some of their lettering is obviously different than how our lettering font is