Magic Acc+ Staffs

[Zerich]

Any RDM's built them, and if so, do they land previously resisted spells?
Not trying to be a downer, but if that's the case...yeah.

[Neisan_Quetz]

As far as I can tell no. Your best bet is to use Elemental Seal if you're being heavily resisted, if you're still getting resisted after seal it's pretty much immune.

[ManaKing]

Dark Magian Sword lvl 99. +100 MP, +16 MAC. You can Dual Wield them. I'm assuming two of these is better than a staff.

To my knowledge, almost everything is either immune or you land it easily.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, the elemental affinity magic accuracy staves are way better than macc sticks, even dual wielded. They barely beat HQ elemental staves.

[Greatguardian]

Macc swords are asking to be laughed at. They are useless. If you made one, throw it away. Just, forget it ever happened.

[tyrantsyn]

Nothing can fix the resist/immune rates at this point other than SE. We already have a insane amount of gear with +skill enfeebling on it. But it really all comes down to is Balance > functional RDM. I guess we should all be content to have at least one enfeeble land per end boss I guess.

Edit: go go addle

[Economizer]

You can Dual Wield them. I'm assuming two of these is better than a staff.

Each Sword gives +16 mACC. The specific elemental staves give +60 mACC. Dual Wielding two is equivalent to an HQ level 51 Staff plus the appropriate magic accuracy strap, but will save you 8-16 inventory slots. Really, the main thing with the swords is being able to save inventory space and be able to do some light melee (398 skill vs. an absolute highest of 150 skill). Basically, you sacrifice being the best at either one of the things to save inventory and be able to rapidly reply to multiple situations.

I wouldn't begrudge someone carrying one of these in one of their melee slots for some magic accuracy while meleeing as either a RDM/BLU but ultimately if you are looking for all out magical or all out melee they aren't the best for either.

As a bit of an afterthought, even a Murgleis only gets +25 mACC at 95 with the test stats for 99 being +30 mACC, meaning that if you managed to get one and dual wield it with one of the magic accuracy swords, you's still only be about 14~19 mACC away from the elemental accuracy magian staves. Even plopping down a Death Blossom on top of that leaves you 4~9 points away unless SE buffs the effect on that, and a Staff user can still equip a strap.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sure, if you never nuke ever at all and want to be even more supbar at meleeing. They save 0 space for anyone half decent at the job. If you were unfortunate enough to have made them, I'm sorry you wasted your time, but at least others may learn from your mistake, and not make the same one.

[ManaKing]

Man all i'm hearing is NQ and GG still talk like spending any time on a RDM is anything but a waste of time. Jobs broke. You play it for fun. Blah blah blag RDM<BLM for nukes and that wasn't even the question. The question was if elemental staves are worth making on a RDM. The answer is no. You won't stick enfeebles any better and you'll never nuke better than a BLM. Welcome to RDM, balance means that you're probably never actually be legitimately useful. Fun.

[Seriha]

My only gripe with calling the MACC swords useless is that they can be useful to Convert sets with the MP. Maybe not so much if you're Taru, but a higher likelihood with Galka and other races depending on your gear and how anal you are about a 1:1 ratio, especially if using a non-MP sub like /NIN or /DNC.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Man all i'm hearing is NQ and GG still talk like spending any time on a RDM is anything but a waste of time. Jobs broke. You play it for fun. Blah blah blag RDM<BLM for nukes and that wasn't even the question. The question was if elemental staves are worth making on a RDM. The answer is no. You won't stick enfeebles any better and you'll never nuke better than a BLM. Welcome to RDM, balance means that you're probably never actually be legitimately useful. Fun.

Okay, I'll amend my statement. Macc swords are usually a waste, if your concern was either macc or dealing damage with them (for convert sets it would only be useful /nin as the MP staff gives more mp, albeit it is easier to make). That has nothing to do with Magian Elemental staves being the best staves for the job, and useful on other mage jobs. Rdm was never meant to nuke better per nuke than a blm, period. That doesn't mean halfass your gear and suck at it.

[saevel]

Man all i'm hearing is NQ and GG still talk like spending any time on a RDM is anything but a waste of time. Jobs broke. You play it for fun. Blah blah blag RDM<BLM for nukes and that wasn't even the question. The question was if elemental staves are worth making on a RDM. The answer is no. You won't stick enfeebles any better and you'll never nuke better than a BLM. Welcome to RDM, balance means that you're probably never actually be legitimately useful. Fun.

This is why I've added them both to my ignore lost. GG is just trolling the RDM forums trying to start arguments, same with NQ. NQ is most likely shadowedge off Ala, he use's practically the exact same argument structure. He pretends to be a RDM but all his arguments boil down to "go play BLU instead its better".

I have a blast playing RDM, lately it's been RDM/DNC + BLU/DNC as me and a friend are douing to get all our -1 relic and the items to upgrade them.

To the OP, I wouldn't bother with +M.acc staves on RDM. With all the +enf skill and +MND / INT we have you'll either stick the enfeebled or the target immune / resistant, in which case it's futile. For nuking I'd suggest the potency staves if your absolutely set on it. I also dislike the M.acc swords for the same reason, your either going to stick the spell or not be able to.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No, I'm Neisan on QCDN Zam FFXIAH here and BG, I thought it was pretty damn obvious since I use almost the exact same name on every single forum I post on.

I've been playing Rdm since 05 and entered the game on Rdm1/No sub. I always have fun on Rdm. That doesn't stop the job being marginalized on harder content. And easier content when it comes to Abyssea. And there's no reason to go Rdm in Dynamis, especially in your setup.

[Greatguardian]

I can concede the MP being worthwhile for Convert if you need them.

That's seriously about all they're good for, though. Just because RDM isn't the best job in the game doesn't mean it's okay to halfass it and make crappy, worthless swords that you should pretty much never use outside of a vert macro.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you have room for a massive convert kit I'd like to know what you're not carrying on Rdm.

[Ketaru]

Man all i'm hearing is NQ and GG still talk like spending any time on a RDM is anything but a waste of time. Jobs broke. You play it for fun. Blah blah blag RDM<BLM for nukes and that wasn't even the question. The question was if elemental staves are worth making on a RDM.

Where are you getting any of this? The only thing mentioned that's even remotely BLM-related was Elemental Seal.

[Greatguardian]

And before I get called a melee-hater for calling the swords useless, if you're melee'ing in MAcc swords then even Saevel will have damn good reason to kick your ass.

[ManaKing]

Nope, just pointing out that a staff isnt going to help a RDM do anything remotely impressive at this point, because RDM doesn't do anything remotely impressive as a legit mage. There is nothing on a staff that will help a RDM do anything better except heal or nuke. Our enfeebling is an ON/OFF switch. SE has it turned off for a large majority of newer mobs. A MACC anything isn't going to land against immunity because that is the way SE set it up.


Rdm was never meant to nuke better per nuke than a blm, period. That doesn't mean halfass your gear and suck at it.

So why are you playing it like a BLM/WHM that doesn't have access to anything past Thunder IV? Seriously, ask yourself. Staves are blatantly not the way RDM is going because you can't land enfeebles with or without and RDMs Melee better than they nuke (even though they melee worse than most jobs).

I'm not advocating to melee RDM, I'm advocating RDM actually being fixed to something other than a glutton for punishment. My survivability against any mob that can't almost instantly kill me is hilariously high and my DPS is depressingly low, regardless of gear. It's like they made an off tank on accident and then decided that tanking isn't what they wanted RDM to do, so they broke everything on the job that could help it tank.

I'm not say that I want RDM going that way either, but I would like some legit DPS or some kind of actual utility that makes RDM worthy of person's time on a statistical basis, rather than something that resembles romanticism.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If you're on Rdm to do something 'impressive', you're on the wrong job. If I can melee it within what I consider to be sensible reason, I'm gonna pull out Almace. If I can't, I have magian staves (4 more to go FML). Adapt to the situation and do what you can.

[ManaKing]

If you're on Rdm to do something 'impressive', you're on the wrong job. If I can melee it within what I consider to be sensible reason, I'm gonna pull out Almace. If I can't, I have magian staves (4 more to go FML). Adapt to the situation and do what you can.

Agreed in truth, but that is not how I want it to be. As either a melee or a mage, you can pick a better job at either and you get nothing out of being able to do both because you can't do them at the same time.

I really do want RDM to be a better equipped job and I really don't care how RDM has to change to accommodate that. Because right now, we aren't good at much compared to others.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I don't know what to say then. Unless Rdm somehow gets useless useful spells that land on NMs, I don't think anyone's ever going to go "Good job, your slow landed 50% harder than the last Rdm's!" (This is just an example, it's not serious)

[Jerbob]

On the topic of magic accuracy staves, how does the Shareeravadi +3 on magic accuracy path (M.Acc+20) fare against HQ elemental staves? I know it doesn't even begin to touch the elemental affinity magic accuracy ones, but I'm coming from a white mage, consolidating inventory whilst preserving existing enfeebling potential perspective rather than sticking enfeebles on resistant stuff (which I can't do anyway, affinity staves or otherwise).

Apologies for the slight derail, but this seemed like the best place to ask.

[Economizer]

On the topic of magic accuracy staves, how does the Shareeravadi +3 on magic accuracy path (M.Acc+20) fare against HQ elemental staves?

I sorta covered this earlier when I mentioned that the HQ 51 staves have +30 magic accuracy. It basically compares to the NQ versions (+20 magic accuracy).

Although, compared to the magian cure staff it has a higher DPS, so if you do choose to get it, you can use it for staff melee a tiny, tiny bit, although if you are doing that you should either consider the use of a darkness affinity one for Catacylsm, or something more melee specific like the magian attack staff or the Fulcrum Pole. Well, better then any of those suggestions, just switch to a club...

[Greatguardian]

Nope, just pointing out that a staff isnt going to help a RDM do anything remotely impressive at this point, because RDM doesn't do anything remotely impressive as a legit mage. There is nothing on a staff that will help a RDM do anything better except heal or nuke. Our enfeebling is an ON/OFF switch. SE has it turned off for a large majority of newer mobs. A MACC anything isn't going to land against immunity because that is the way SE set it up.



So why are you playing it like a BLM/WHM that doesn't have access to anything past Thunder IV? Seriously, ask yourself. Staves are blatantly not the way RDM is going because you can't land enfeebles with or without and RDMs Melee better than they nuke (even though they melee worse than most jobs).

I'm not advocating to melee RDM, I'm advocating RDM actually being fixed to something other than a glutton for punishment. My survivability against any mob that can't almost instantly kill me is hilariously high and my DPS is depressingly low, regardless of gear. It's like they made an off tank on accident and then decided that tanking isn't what they wanted RDM to do, so they broke everything on the job that could help it tank.

I'm not say that I want RDM going that way either, but I would like some legit DPS or some kind of actual utility that makes RDM worthy of person's time on a statistical basis, rather than something that resembles romanticism.

Stop trying to make up arguments where there are none. No one in this thread gives a god damned holy flying burrito about bloody melee.

Whether you melee or not is completely inconsequential because MAcc swords are fucking terrible and should never be used in the front or back line for anything aside from a Convert macro ever. If you are currently using them for such, drop them and make some real swords like STR shamshirs and an Almace/WoE. Seriously. Drop them. Save yourself the inventory.

[Jerbob]

Oh, that's a shame. Thanks for the information though. Yes, I have the Pet: MAB version of the Shareeravadi and was surprised at the damage rating, and I do have a Fulcrum Pole, if not for the damage then for the looks... nice and spikey. :)

[saevel]

Oh, that's a shame. Thanks for the information though. Yes, I have the Pet: MAB version of the Shareeravadi and was surprised at the damage rating, and I do have a Fulcrum Pole, if not for the damage then for the looks... nice and spikey. :)

Hey with shattersoul being what it is, I can very well see people doing staff builds. Especially SMN's.

[ManaKing]

Hey with shattersoul being what it is, I can very well see people doing staff builds. Especially SMN's.

You'd think with all the B,C,D, and E skills we have, they really could have made us bad with staves too.

IF RDM had a staff skill I would be all over that, but alas, we do not.



Stop trying to make up arguments where there are none. No one in this thread gives a god damned holy flying burrito about bloody melee.

Whether you melee or not is completely inconsequential because MAcc swords are fucking terrible and should never be used in the front or back line for anything aside from a Convert macro ever. If you are currently using them for such, drop them and make some real swords like STR shamshirs and an Almace/WoE. Seriously. Drop them. Save yourself the inventory.

The only person I see being inflammatory in this thread GG is you. NQ can be civil and actually discuss things. Please stop talking like there is a right and wrong way to play RDM, the entire job is sub par. It's insulting to listen to you berate things with an air of elitism about something that isn't elite in the smallest bit. RDM is the definition of generic and marginalized in FFXI. If you want to spend your energies on something constructive, try being nice to people and actually start something on the RDM forums.

Face facts, RDM isn't good at anything. But what it particularly isn't good at is being a straight mage because it doesn't have the spell library to support it. You can't nuke past Thunder IV, you can't cure past Cure IV, and no one really cares about you because you aren't better than either a BLM or a WHM, which they could replace you with. Even SCH is actually better than RDM at this point. It really is a shame that you fight other RDMs instead of actually attempting to address SE with grievances for your job. But hey I guess RDMs can just be known as the job that in-fights all day, because they certainly don't do anything else better than anyone.

[Zerich]

this whole thread is so off-topic

not once did i (the op) mention or even state that i care about sub-par melee weapons with magic acc+

i just was asking about the staffs

thank you to those who actually gave feedback/insight into the topic

to the rest.... /stare /sigh

[Greatguardian]

"Because RDM sucks, it doesn't matter if it uses crappy weapons" ?

Don't see your point. In fact, it's everything that's wrong with most Melee RDMs and even those on this forum would agree that the reputation of RdMelee as a whole is significantly worse off because of people who follow similar veins of thought. If you're going to do anything, melee or otherwise, do it well. MAcc swords are complete and utter trash.

And yeah, I don't even know how this started either. Apparently Mana likes Macc swords, and instead of quietly throwing them away and getting real swords he seems to be insisting on convincing us that "Because Rdm is second class, it doesn't matter if it uses second class weapons".

[Doombringer]

red mage! twice the effort for half the respect!

[saevel]

You'd think with all the B,C,D, and E skills we have, they really could have made us bad with staves too.

IF RDM had a staff skill I would be all over that, but alas, we do not.


*Cough*

Was referring to WHM or SMN actually. RDM doesn't get staff skill and thus why I absolutely hate the idea of people thinking staff should be our best weapon. It just goes to show how munchkiny people are in this game.

[ManaKing]

Sigh you are all missing the point. MACC Staffs are a bad idea, just like everything on RDM. We aren't given any real options. My point is we are all pseudo fighting all the time because we aren't given anything to actually do our job properly. If RDM was a more complete job, we could actually agree with each other on how to play it well. An Almace is the closest thing we can get to doing an OK job and most of us don't think it is good enough because it completely ignores 1/2 of our job.

I'd really like it if we could just get along and actually petition SE/our community for help as opposed to watch RDM rot.

[saevel]

Sigh you are all missing the point. MACC Staffs are a bad idea, just like everything on RDM. We aren't given any real options. My point is we are all pseudo fighting all the time because we aren't given anything to actually do our job properly. If RDM was a more complete job, we could actually agree with each other on how to play it well. An Almace is the closest thing we can get to doing an OK job and most of us don't think it is good enough because it completely ignores 1/2 of our job.

I'd really like it if we could just get along and actually petition SE/our community for help as opposed to watch RDM rot.

Will never happen, at least not as a group. Too many people in the game see RDM as nothing but a WHM-2 and want to keep it that way. For them it's nothing but a cheap ticket to getting gear for their other jobs, playing RDM as a gimp WHM is similar to BRD, requires nearly no gear or time / gil investment. To master the job requires a metric f*ck ton of gil / time investment along with tons of gear sets, a healthy knowledge of game mechanics and the ability to multitask on the fly. For most players that is simply too much work and they would rather keep it the "Cure Cure Cure Haste Cure Cure" job they've made it to be.

[Neisan_Quetz]

FFS Rdm isn't getting you anything 'cheaply' for the last 20 levels of the game. It's been the other way around, using other jobs to gear Rdm.

[Seriha]

Spells are expensive just because we hate our fellow players. Of sellable gear that's been added since 76+, some I've just outright felt not worth the price tag, especially during post-patch rushes. Funnily enough, of RDM's new spells, I probably paid the most for Temper at 400k and it's probably been the most useful spell we've gotten out of the push if you're not in the anti-melee camp. I suspect the non-Abyssea Gains, compared to Boosts, fizzled down quickly in costs because they only affect the RDM. I already had my T4s from BLM/SCH pre-Abyssea. I don't have Gravity II yet, but I also don't think it's worth 500k.

I paid around 1.2m for a Stoicheion Medal, 2m for Brego Gloves (only for them to hit 1m like 7 hours later when 20 hit the AH -.-), and 500k for Eurus' Ledelsens. Could I buy a cure potency body? Sure. If heals were what a group wanted from me, though, I'd be on WHM. Anyway, while there's been some okay gear added that RDM can use, I don't feel there's been much added for RDM, especially 91+. Spells and JAs are their own issue, but I still stand by the fact we need some strong hybrid pieces tailored to our needs. Maybe then the job would be a step closer to not being so marginalized.

[Greatguardian]

Spells and new gear are expensive because of inflation. You just don't notice inflation outside of gear that Endgamers are interested in because, despite the fact that Gil is piss-easy to accumulate now, the vast majority of any server's gil is concentrated in something like 5-10% of the total server population.

Prices on goods that low-tier players are interested in can't rise because, despite the massive supply of Gil in the system, low-tier players don't have any money - keeping prices down by force.

Once you get into spells/gear/whatnot that high-tier players are interested in, the price point rises because these players are capable of paying a fair price for goods. And yes, 2M for Comet is a fair price based on the current amount of gil in the system. 2M is piss easy to make. I've played for about 20 hours this week and tossed 17 Mil into my Spharai from that playtime alone.

Tl;dr? Ninja inflation. The prices are fair. Things in general just don't look as expensive because the unwashed masses can't afford to pay a fair price on goods meant for them.

[Seriha]

Gonna go out on a limb and say your concept of fair is unlikely to match with others. Comet isn't 2m because it's an awesome spell. Not everyone's raking in 850k/hr, either.

[Greatguardian]

Well, the understanding I have of most people's definition of "fair" is "Something anyone can afford without doing any work whatsoever". I'm not trying to apply that to you, but it's most certainly a majority opinion if we were to defer to the masses.

2M is just not a bad deal for a solid spell. Pricing is just a matter of determining how much one's time is worth. If it takes 5 hours to farm up a comet scroll, but you can rake in 500k/hr by spending your time effectively, then 2M is a steal for Comet. In reality, it probably takes 2-3 hours max to farm up a high level scroll if you do Part 3 Voidwatch - likewise, an experienced player can earn anywhere from 500-800k/hr if they buckle down. This is fair pricing - pricing where an item's worth in gil is roughly equal to the amount of gil a player can make in a hour multiplied by the number of hours it takes to acquire it.

Comet, Blizz/Thundaja, Voidwatch HQ Heads, these items are priced highly because they're marketed towards players who can afford it. More specifically, they're marketed towards players who can rake in 850k/hr. The rest of the playerbase just isn't worth marketing to because they only hold a small fraction of any server's total gil count.

[ManaKing]

I can't actually disagree with GGs economics, because that's how I see it as well. If you know how to run dynamis or a half decent FC, then money shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Something is more than 1M? Get off your ass and go get it. If it is on the AH then it is a luxury. You just have to come up with the money for it and honestly money isn't hard to get compared to a couple years ago.

I do agree that there is nothing on the AH that resembles Hybrid gear. It's either DPS or Mage. You don't really have a 3rd option. (because you can't buy most good damage reduction gear for RDM) I'm probably not going to post too much more in this thread because it has even less to do with Staves than it did originally.

[Seriha]

And I think it's bullshit to be putting magic behind needlessly high price tags, while melees just need to level or skill up a bit for their abilities and WS. The prices aren't high because the FFXI elite are the only ones worthy of acquisition. They're high because SE, in their infinite wisdom, decided to make them rare drops from various events with suddenly the bulk of your playerbase at the same 'starting point' after years of the 75 cap. These same people then turn and scorn the "unwashed masses" because they don't have something they've deliberately put out of reach. Not everyone likes Voidwatch, or even has luck if/when they do it. Behold your profits plummet as you're left to wade in a sea of logs and ore elsewhere.

So, yes, we hate each other by being profit-mongering capitalists instead of being considerate toward the needs of our fellow players. Spare me the pending Economics 101 line, as SE is in direct control of the supply and created these situations to begin with. Much as I grumble about RDM's shortcomings, SE hasn't been very nice to mages in general over the years. So yeah, "fair" to me would be a mage's big expenses being more tied in the new-age Novio earring equivalents and the like, not the ability to just cast a spell. Instead, they get both, and some encourage it just because they feel distinction should be preserved in the wrong places.

Plus I fully anticipate a Chocobo Blinker nerf the more people prattle on about how easy money is to make with this actually being a gil fountain compared to peddling VW drops. Happened before with stuff like the blood leeches and bats dropped, which wasn't nearly as bad. Or rusty caps.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Capitalism, it's a beautiful thing ain't it.

[saevel]

A RDM wearing full AF / Relic / Emp +1 gear with a light staff in this hands is all that's required to play "WHM -2" *cough* "support" RDM. Enfeebles are sh!t in big fights (the ones that rely on stats and gear), which seems to be the only thing that's ever counted. Your nukes while not bad aren't nearly as good as the BLM's and SCH's. And the only buffs that rely on enhancing skill are self-cast, with the exception of the nearly worthless phalanx 2. The only "expensive" spells on the AH are the ones from VWNM, and those prices are plummeting because there is no demand for them (for RDM). The current generation of RDM's would rather not spend the money on a spell they never see themselves casting, not when they can instead spend that money on their PUP / DRG / BLU / SAM / DRK / PLD / MNK / ect..

People can jump, yell and holler about how important they think enfeebles are, but we all know their sh!t with the sole exception of Dia III on big fights for a damage boost, and a naked RDM casts the same potency Dia III as a super buffed one. Ultimately only hardcore RDM's will spend the gil to get the cure potency body, or like myself also get the +enhancing magic body. We'll fork out big money to make our nukes slightly better but still weaker then a BLMs or SCHs. We'll spend money to build super enhancing sets for our self buffs, most of which are melee orientated (Enspell / Temper / Gain-STR/DEX / Phalanx). We'll spend the gil to pimp out our MND / INT sets for those times when we're killing ash and trash. We'll do this not because it makes us more desired or stand out, cause honestly big groups couldn't care less, we'll do it because we have pride in what we do. Unfortunately the ones who have that pride are in the vast minority of those who happen to have RDM leveled.

[Greatguardian]

And I think it's bullshit to be putting magic behind needlessly high price tags, while melees just need to level or skill up a bit for their abilities and WS. The prices aren't high because the FFXI elite are the only ones worthy of acquisition. They're high because SE, in their infinite wisdom, decided to make them rare drops from various events with suddenly the bulk of your playerbase at the same 'starting point' after years of the 75 cap. These same people then turn and scorn the "unwashed masses" because they don't have something they've deliberately put out of reach. Not everyone likes Voidwatch, or even has luck if/when they do it. Behold your profits plummet as you're left to wade in a sea of logs and ore elsewhere.

So, yes, we hate each other by being profit-mongering capitalists instead of being considerate toward the needs of our fellow players. Spare me the pending Economics 101 line, as SE is in direct control of the supply and created these situations to begin with. Much as I grumble about RDM's shortcomings, SE hasn't been very nice to mages in general over the years. So yeah, "fair" to me would be a mage's big expenses being more tied in the new-age Novio earring equivalents and the like, not the ability to just cast a spell. Instead, they get both, and some encourage it just because they feel distinction should be preserved in the wrong places.

Plus I fully anticipate a Chocobo Blinker nerf the more people prattle on about how easy money is to make with this actually being a gil fountain compared to peddling VW drops. Happened before with stuff like the blood leeches and bats dropped, which wasn't nearly as bad. Or rusty caps.

Prices are high because that's how much my time is worth, considering I'm the one doing Voidwatch and causing these scrolls to exist in the world in the first place. If you aren't willing to pay for my time, you can go get them yourself. This is how the AH works, how it will always work, and how it will continue to work until the game shuts down.

Whether Saevel meant to or not, he made a very good point. Yes, Mages have to fork out for spells while melees just need to skill up. But what good is a gear-less melee? None. Melee do need to fork out for nice gear in order to be even half-relevant, while many mages could sit around in full Teal and deliver passable performance because the nature of the job relies far more on player reaction and decision making than gear as it stands right now.

Chocobo Blinkers are an easy source of gil that doesn't appear to be getting nerfed any time soon. SE has known about it for ages. It's not like it's being monopolized by RMT like beast blood was, or being botted by everyone like Rusty equipment. Cruor is easy to grind out and can be converted to gil. SE's answer to this massive inflation was very clearly Atmacites and Voidwatch Cells, which can serve as a healthy Cruor sink - or rather, could have if they made any of the cells aside from Rubicund worth using.

So yes, if you have a problem affording Comet, go spend 1-2 hours in a Cruor party. If you think melees are passable just because they have capped skill and don't need to spend money on anything, get real.

As far as Saevel is concerned, not everyone who dislikes melee is a bandwagon pink mage - but you already knew that and just wanted to start trouble anyways. Plenty of us have both WHM and RDM leveled. Gee, I wonder why that is. Would be pretty redundant to have WHM and WHM-2 if that's all it was.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Sadly, in too many servers, "passable" melees/light melees are perle and aurore, even seeing them in events like voidwatch is not uncommon, they suck but theyre taken anyway cause theyre skilled and can proc, then theres no rush/kill because killpower is lacking. Its just how things work outside of perfect-ville, a place most of us do not live in.

[Seriha]

...you can go get them yourself.

Tried that. Got my lion's share of logs and ore. Then WoE died. Either way, both WoE and VW tend to require lots of people, so your time isn't just your own, and I have a hunch you aren't sharing your profits with those you VW with (and aren't as lucky) as a result. So let's not pretend gil is falling from the sky or, hell, that naked mages amount to much when casting more than Dia or lolBio. Otherwise, you're hardly spamming VW to do your server a service. Shit you don't need is just bonus points toward your quest for a relic. Anyone looking to target a specific spell drop is SOL with how the recent ones have been implemented and you're capitalizing on dumb luck because the conditions established by SE favor it.

[Greatguardian]

Sadly, in too many servers, "passable" melees/light melees are perle and aurore, even seeing them in events like voidwatch is not uncommon, they suck but theyre taken anyway cause theyre skilled and can proc, then theres no rush/kill because killpower is lacking. Its just how things work outside of perfect-ville, a place most of us do not live in.

If they're skilled, they don't have Perle and Aurore. Period. It is absolutely not passable in any sense of the word.


Tried that. Got my lion's share of logs and ore. Then WoE died. Either way, both WoE and VW tend to require lots of people, so your time isn't just your own, and I have a hunch you aren't sharing your profits with those you VW with (and aren't as lucky) as a result. So let's not pretend gil is falling from the sky or, hell, that naked mages amount to much when casting more than Dia or lolBio. Otherwise, you're hardly spamming VW to do your server a service. Shit you don't need is just bonus points toward your quest for a relic. Anyone looking to target a specific spell drop is SOL with how the recent ones have been implemented and you're capitalizing on dumb luck because the conditions established by SE favor it.

It's called the law of large numbers, you may want to look into it sometime. It's unfortunate, but it's how FFXI's random number generator works. Doing Part 1 and 2 Voidwatch? It was pretty reasonable for someone to spam it for weeks and never see the scroll they want. Doing Part 3? Stuff rains from the sky. Even if you don't get Comet specifically, you'll end up with enough money drops that you'll be able to buy comet after a few runs regardless. The odds of getting Comet specifically become unimportant, as the only important number is your average gil/run

Comet and other spells also drop from HKCNMs for those who are too busy drowning in their own self-pity to do anything that requires more than 1-2 people.

[saevel]

Tried that. Got my lion's share of logs and ore. Then WoE died. Either way, both WoE and VW tend to require lots of people, so your time isn't just your own, and I have a hunch you aren't sharing your profits with those you VW with (and aren't as lucky) as a result. So let's not pretend gil is falling from the sky or, hell, that naked mages amount to much when casting more than Dia or lolBio. Otherwise, you're hardly spamming VW to do your server a service. Shit you don't need is just bonus points toward your quest for a relic. Anyone looking to target a specific spell drop is SOL with how the recent ones have been implemented and you're capitalizing on dumb luck because the conditions established by SE favor it.

Well some spells can be farmed through HKCNM's and what not. They drop at a much higher rate that way.

[ManaKing]

As far as Saevel is concerned, not everyone who dislikes melee is a bandwagon pink mage - but you already knew that and just wanted to start trouble anyways. Plenty of us have both WHM and RDM leveled. Gee, I wonder why that is. Would be pretty redundant to have WHM and WHM-2 if that's all it was.

I really don't know about that. How often do you actually take your RDM to anything VS your WHM? I'm just pointing out that the WHM is infinitely more useful because it can actually do it's job. I'm just wondering what job or role you are filling with your RDM, if at all.

I'm being serious, btw. I understand we have a certain level of tension on these boards, but I legitimately want to know what you do with your RDM.

[Seriha]

Luck of those I know suggests otherwise, and seals are far more finite than the alternatives. Either way, proposing the drop rates are good doesn't really help the guy who's 0/way too many attempts and rather demoralized by their effort yielding nothing. My own experiences in WoE put me at over 40 runs with the only scrolls to show for it being some of the sub-90 BRD carols. While I tend to advise people looking for a given scroll to just buy it, I am conscious of the fact that if everyone just did that and stopped doing the given events, the situation won't improve any. T3 VW may be cool now, but can we say it will still be a month or two from now? And from what I see of PUGs, the shouters are pretty much Emp/Relic or GTFO. And that, for an average player, is an entirely different can of worms.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Greatguardian... did you seriously substitute(confuse?) an intangable measurement of ability (player skill) for in game numerical values based on actions performed(Combat/magic skills)? The statment you just made has to be the most absurd thing i have ever heard. Your combat skill values can be capped without any equipment, so yes "skilled" characters CAN be wearing perle/aurore. You are refering to "skilled players" but never specified, to which, a skilled player can be unfortuinate enough to only have the time to wear perle/aurore and the like. You can try to measure gear against skill, but that is impossible. Sure a well geared player will usually play better but anyone buying an account with a relic greataxe and full gearsets doesnt mean much when the player doesnt know how to use them. If anything gear is a measurement of dedication/luck. Yes i said it luck, i got my zelus tiara by luck, i have the knowledge and skill to know when to use it but it was luck 100%.

So were you just trying to contradict me to make yourself seem superior? To be clear im not picking a fight with you but your views and statements. Not everyone has the sort of linkshell or time to dedicate to farming endlessly with the events that they may or may not already attend. But to you those are just unwashed mases, the poor people cluttering up your game and the way you play right? The reason people dont like you weighing in on topics isnt because you're against them, but because your attitude makes talking to you a chore, and very unpleasant. I dont dissagree people should be mostly out of perle (when possible) by now, but try treating us as people rather than uneducated and try to keep your statements with a positive, less condesending tone if possible? Its very old and tired by now. Just my 2 cents, im done in this topic.

[cidbahamut]

Greatguardian... did you seriously substitute(confuse?) an intangable measurement of ability (player skill) for in game numerical values based on actions performed(Combat/magic skills)?

Despite all of your insecurities and pants-wearing habits, you actually make a good point. There is a great deal of confusion on these boards revolving around the term 'skill' being applied to both player aptitude as well as an in-game mechanic.

The rest of your post is rather silly.

[Crimson_Slasher]

Insecurities? Only thing thats insecure is my employment status at the moment And ive got prettymuch nowhere to go but up at this point. Besides, can you really be calling me insecure when you have chosen to not display your main character on these forums?

[Greatguardian]

Luck of those I know suggests otherwise, and seals are far more finite than the alternatives. Either way, proposing the drop rates are good doesn't really help the guy who's 0/way too many attempts and rather demoralized by their effort yielding nothing. My own experiences in WoE put me at over 40 runs with the only scrolls to show for it being some of the sub-90 BRD carols. While I tend to advise people looking for a given scroll to just buy it, I am conscious of the fact that if everyone just did that and stopped doing the given events, the situation won't improve any. T3 VW may be cool now, but can we say it will still be a month or two from now? And from what I see of PUGs, the shouters are pretty much Emp/Relic or GTFO. And that, for an average player, is an entirely different can of worms.

No one gives a damn about the average player. They are neither producers nor consumers of high-end goods. They are not the people doing Voidwatch, and they sure as hell aren't the market that those people are interested in selling to.

Fortunately, this is a video game, so all it takes to rise from average [read: piss-poor] to marketable is a modicum of effort, a willingness to learn, and an IQ greater than potato.

Oh, and I'm sure you and I can play the "Wahh my drop rates are worse than yours" game all day. I've gone 0/200 on more NMs than the average player can count up to (see what I did there?), so cry me a river. All I see is someone too busy making excuses for themselves to go out and actually accomplish anything.


Despite all of your insecurities and pants-wearing habits, you actually make a good point. There is a great deal of confusion on these boards revolving around the term 'skill' being applied to both player aptitude as well as an in-game mechanic.

The rest of your post is rather silly.

^. If you were referring to "Skills are capped", then I misunderstood you. When I say "A skilled Warrior", I'm generally not referring to the numerical value of their Great Axe skill. I'm referring to a person who knows what they're doing. And frankly, anyone with an ounce of skill is most certainly not wearing Perle or Aurore on jobs they care about. Period. Why? Because anyone with an ounce of skill can obtain better gear solo.

The level of someone's combat skill never even crosses my mind because, as far as I'm concerned, all relevant numbers should be blue on any player who gives a shit.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I know i said i was done but once again i need to point out something.

I cant be bothered using the quote function so.

Greatguardian said;
"No one gives a damn about the average player. They are neither producers nor consumers of high-end goods. They are not the people doing Voidwatch, and they sure as hell aren't the market that those people are interested in selling to."

Know who cares about the average player? SE's wallets. Create a hostile environment for the average player, watch income and population decrease. And personally im more scared of what SE does than what you say. Also once again you let your "experience" make you a very insulting person that people dont want to talk to. Id hate to work with you and id hate to play with you if this is how you behave in all honesty. Opinion valid or not, its not the face of a linkshell leader if you ask me, something you constantly pride yourself on it seems.

[Greatguardian]

Funny how we went from talking about the economics of high-end items to the game as a whole?

Clue me in to that transition please.

I've already discussed the reason why no one in the market for endgame-tier goods is interested in the average player. 90% of any server's gil is concentrated in 10% of the population. Funny enough, because this is a video game and all, the only real reason for this is laziness. Anyone can make gil while AFK for crying out loud if they put in the time to set up an exp alliance. Most people just don't bother.

The average player isn't clueless. They know how to make gil. They're just too lazy to go out and do it, and that is what divides the market. If you're not at least a decently competent player, then frankly these items are not priced around your income and you should probably forget about it until you decide to man up and work for them like the rest of us.

Save the indignation. You're clearly missing context. I don't particularly care what most posters on the Official Forums think of me, to be honest. Scaring posters here away from my linkshell just means fewer junk applications to throw out.

[cidbahamut]

Know who cares about the average player? SE's wallets. Create a hostile environment for the average player, watch income and population decrease.

I'm pretty sure they(SE) were doing that for quite a while actually.



And personally im more scared of what SE does than what you say. Also once again you let your "experience" make you a very insulting person that people dont want to talk to. Id hate to work with you and id hate to play with you if this is how you behave in all honesty. Opinion valid or not, its not the face of a linkshell leader if you ask me, something you constantly pride yourself on it seems.
Is it really so terrible to expect people to abandon Perle tier gear when vastly superior options are easily available? I mean really, you can get AF3 +1 gear with a pickup group of fairly inept players. There's very little reason not to expect it of anyone who wants to be considered a good player.

It's fine to be working toward it, but let's not pretend that full Perle gear is adequate. It's what you wear while in the process of gearing your character to a more acceptable level so you can contribute meaningfully in other content.

[Crimson_Slasher]

I never once said it was even remotely considered adequate, what i said is ive seen people more interested in combat skills and spells at times rather than gear in some voidwatch groups ive been in, so far that ive seen a perle sam with just +1 unkai head invited on the grounds that they had their skill high enough to trigger weaknesses.

And yeah this thread is off topic, they all go off topic. Ill give you a translation when you explain to me how we got into the high-tier economics in the first place. The redmage forum is MADE of derails, spins, detractions, infighting, and insults slung about. And to be totally honest to you, i dont care if you ignore how people look at you, i really dont, and honestly, i dont dislike you, i dislike the way you behave. When people see your posts, constantly filled with venom and an thickly implied layer of "you should suck less" in damn near every statement you make, how can you really hope that people will agree with you on anything?

Insulting, condesending, unsupportive. Those three qualities stand out in your posts and theyre terrible personality traits. I fear i will be adding you to ignore soon because even with best intentions, all i ever hear from you is disreguard for anyone outside your perfect little world.

[saevel]

*Cough*

More BS by those pretending to be elite players.

Awhile back I made this point, and it seems that people have forgotten it.

Any online games population can be divided into two groups, the first being the vocal minority elite / high end / awesome / -whatever- crowd, typically in the 1~5% range. Those in the 1% range get quite pissed when they get lumped in with the 2~5% range, just shows up insecure they are about their social status. This group plays like asinine monkeys, to them this isn't a game but a way to acquire social status, something their often lacking in their lives. The rarer the loot, the more exclusive their achievements, the better they feel about themselves, their self worth is directly tied to how exclusive they can make themselves.

Then you have those in the 95% range, they are the silent majority who wear whatever gear is practical for them to acquire. To them this isn't a rat race for social status but a form of entertainment similar to watching a movie, or TV show, yet more interactive. They would like the shiny's but most honestly don't desire to put forth any serious effort as that would detract from their enjoyment. This is a game, not a life nor a job, and thus if their not having fun they cease to desire to play, and if they don't get enjoyment then they'll move on to something that does give them enjoyment. They usually don't post on forums and couldn't care less what the elite says. They just want to have fun for their money.

Now you can see the disparity immediately between these two groups, any content designed for the 95% "casual" player will immediately be hated by the 5% "hardcore" player as it's not exclusive enough. The hardcore doesn't want to do the same events as the casual nor have the same gear, it makes them feel cheaper and takes away their exclusive status. Content designed for the hardcore player is detested by the casual player as it takes away their enjoyment factor, they won't pay money for a second job. At no point in time will these two groups ever get along, the fact that the hardcore players ridicule the casuals prevents this, the stick in their arse pretty much guarantees they'll fight with and disparage the casual players.

And now we get to the whole point, that the 95% casual crowd pays several times more money then the 4% hardcore and the insignificant 1% super-ultra-mega-hardcore. It is not profitable to make a game only for the hardcores as that would make the casuals leave. Without the casuals to condescend too the hardcore's start condescending towards each other and eventually there aren't enough players left to pay for the electricity at the server farm. Thus a company must design content for the casual crowd, which just further piss's off the already angry hardcore's and push's that stick further up their neither regions. So anyone making any condescending statements towards "average" or "casual" players can immediately be ignored as their just massaging that stick that happens to co-located with their egos.

[saevel]

I really don't know about that. How often do you actually take your RDM to anything VS your WHM? I'm just pointing out that the WHM is infinitely more useful because it can actually do it's job. I'm just wondering what job or role you are filling with your RDM, if at all.

I'm being serious, btw. I understand we have a certain level of tension on these boards, but I legitimately want to know what you do with your RDM.

RDM's can be used to assist the BLM's in procing during VWNMs. The list of black magic is rather long and having a single or even two BLM's doing it takes too long. Have a RDM do the 2~4 along with their own merit procs.

Honestly though, that's a really small role that can almost always be better filled by a SCH. The only reason to really have a RDM along is for their merit spells and quicker procing of Para / Slow / Blind as they can land it easier then other jobs.

That was the whole reason I started doing the melee thing on VWNMs, the list of procs you check is so small that you end up with plenty of opportunity to melee during HV procs or doing the final "zerg push" to kill it after capped lights.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Only Sch exclusive proc left is Modus isn't it? I'd rather take a Rdm.

[Greatguardian]

I never once said it was even remotely considered adequate, what i said is ive seen people more interested in combat skills and spells at times rather than gear in some voidwatch groups ive been in, so far that ive seen a perle sam with just +1 unkai head invited on the grounds that they had their skill high enough to trigger weaknesses.

And yeah this thread is off topic, they all go off topic. Ill give you a translation when you explain to me how we got into the high-tier economics in the first place. The redmage forum is MADE of derails, spins, detractions, infighting, and insults slung about. And to be totally honest to you, i dont care if you ignore how people look at you, i really dont, and honestly, i dont dislike you, i dislike the way you behave. When people see your posts, constantly filled with venom and an thickly implied layer of "you should suck less" in damn near every statement you make, how can you really hope that people will agree with you on anything?

Insulting, condesending, unsupportive. Those three qualities stand out in your posts and theyre terrible personality traits. I fear i will be adding you to ignore soon because even with best intentions, all i ever hear from you is disreguard for anyone outside your perfect little world.

When the post boils down to "It's not fair that Comet is so expensive, why do mages have to pay so much gil for spells when Melee don't?", there's really nothing more to say aside from "You should suck less".

It's not like Seri doesn't know how to make gil. It's not like most players in general don't know how to make gil, or couldn't make the 2M for comet in a couple days if they set a goal and worked towards it. They simply don't, and I have no sympathy for them for it.

Contrary to what Saevel seems to think, I'm not a hardcore player - nor do I try to pass myself off as one. I am, however, a player who loves to learn and enjoys being challenged for the sake of a challenge. Yeah, I do Voidwatch regularly. But I don't expect to ever get anything of value from it, honestly. Who would? The drop rates are ass. I have 0 bodies, and probably won't ever get one unless they continue increasing drop rates by a significant amount or change the loot system as they move into Part 3.5 and beyond. I do Voidwatch because I enjoy killing things with other players whose company I enjoy.

But hey, you know what, contrary to popular belief, there isn't an insurmountable wall between playing the game for fun and succeeding at it. Obviously, if you were to listen to people like Saevel and Hayward, anyone who succeeds in this game must only care about their social status, egos, or phat lootz. But honestly, and I'm being 100% straight up about this, what the fuck exists in this game that's legitimately difficult to obtain?

Seriously. Name one thing.

That's right. Nothing. So what sort of pride, or ego is one going to develop when it's clear that things aren't hard to acquire? Big whoop I got a few Emps that took less than a week to make? Hurray, I have some shiny +2 armor that took all of a couple hours. Hooray for me, I'm so awesome for ... doing... what, exactly?

But therein lies the conundrum of the masses. I have been hacked, had my character stripped to nothing, and rebuilt from scratch to surpass people with mountainous head starts on me. Why? Because I'm smart, because I have friends, and because I actually work for my bread.

If people want tips on how to make gil quickly, I'll recite them off all day. Want gear advice? No problem. If anyone, anywhere, wants to know how they can be better, I'm down with that.

But the average player on these boards doesn't want that. They just want me to give them gil, or to make an Ochain for them "because it's so easy, right?". People want something for nothing and that does not happen.

So I'm sorry if some random can't afford Comet, or Blizzaja, or Temper. They take all of a few hours to save up for. If you want nice things, get with the program and go get them. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who resigns themselves to mediocrity. "I can't" is bullshit. All these people are saying is "I won't".

[Seriha]

If people want tips on how to make gil quickly, I'll recite them off all day.

Be charitable. Start a thread in the main section doing just that. Just don't be surprised if it draws criticism on the more luck-heavy elements, be it drop rates or having (the right) people and/or multiple accounts at your disposal just to do a given event. That in mind, I think you're far too quick to call people lazy or other unsavory terms.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's been mentioned several times, I think you're not trying hard enough.

[Greatguardian]

Be charitable. Start a thread in the main section doing just that. Just don't be surprised if it draws criticism on the more luck-heavy elements, be it drop rates or having (the right) people and/or multiple accounts at your disposal just to do a given event. That in mind, I think you're far too quick to call people lazy or other unsavory terms.

Make an exp alliance an hour before you go to bed, give someone you know lead (or at least someone that won't kick you), and afk overnight for one thing. Is this a serious question?

Dispersal of information is hardly a problem. People know that Cruor = Gil. They just don't act on it. If you, personally, want tips on making gil you can ask more specific questions. However, I have little interest in trying to spread easily obtainable information to the masses. Like I said earlier, most people know how to make gil at a reasonable pace - they just don't do it.

[Seriha]

Actually, I think it's more you don't know as much as you're trying to claim. Kicking things off with the assumption someone can just leave their game on overnight isn't the best of starts, really. This whole, "I'm a nice guy, buuuut..." routine is getting tiresome.

[Greatguardian]

Actually, I think it's more you don't know as much as you're trying to claim. Kicking things off with the assumption someone can just leave their game on overnight isn't the best of starts, really. This whole, "I'm a nice guy, buuuut..." routine is getting tiresome.

If you have a specific question, ask it. Look around. I've never given anything but straight and honest answers to sincere and specific questions. You just don't find many of those in this subforum.

[Seriha]

I'm not personally looking for gil making tips since the only reason I'd really need it to is to make a relic, which I'm not particularly interested in. I am, however, mindful of those who do have problems making cash and aren't an 8+ year veteran of the game. Not everyone has the same resources to get shit done, and I balked at the above because it assumes your gaming device of choice won't need to be used by someone else or that the electricity bill really isn't an issue. From there, it's a matter of the party lasting long enough, or at least under the charge of your friend/leader, to be any appreciable progress and hoping you're not accidentally killed/disconnected while AFK, or lead somehow falling to you while AFK with the party deciding to reform.

Now, if you wanted to be a bit more industrious and propose something like, "Farm rams in La Theine!" I would've been a bit more receptive. I wouldn't call that appreciably fast gil in an economy requiring multi-million gil purchases, nor was I particularly fond of the "back in the day" aspect of suggesting someone farm 150 stacks of beehive chips for a Haubergeon. It's also pretty mundane, aka not fun in something that's supposed to be entertaining. With crafting largely in the dumps, general farming also isn't as good as it could be. So yeah, this mainly leaves big ticket drops or the cruor machine. The latter might be the most easily accessed, but I think most are getting their cruor from EXP parties rather than cruor parties specifically. Shouts for such on Sylph, from what I've seen chilling in Jeuno, aren't especially common, either.

[Greatguardian]

Farming Rams, and nearly all farming in general has always been woefully inefficient. People liked it because it felt like they were working, though all that work was done with their hands and not their minds.

Obviously what someone is able to do is dependent on their means and situation, which is why I asked if you had a specific question with actual details. Since you don't, I don't have anything to give you. You're just looking for generalized snippets that you can shoot down due to one hypothetical situation or another. That's why general tips are lame.

Off topic, you must live in bodunk nowhere if your computer staying on actually affects your electricity bill to any discernible degree. I never pay more than $30/month for electricity living by myself and my enthusiast PC rig is almost always on.

Back on topic, obligatory "Maybe if you spent less time chilling in Jeuno and more time being productive then the price of goods wouldn't bother you so much" post.

[Seriha]

Reading backscroll after taking a break is hard, I guess. Crap, just implied I did things other than play FFXI. /afkkillingself

Anyway, I'm done for now. Indulge in the last word if you feel inclined. The FFXI I see and the FFXI you see are apparently very different worlds.

[Greatguardian]

Personally, if I'm not playing I just don't log in. If I'm just going to stare at my moogle or afk in Jeuno while watching tv, I may as well just watch tv without ffxi open. Most of my game friends have me on skype anyways so it's not like I'm missing out by not being logged in.

To each his own, though. It hardly requires much time, or much effort to make gil. It requires setting goals and actually working sometimes, but what doesn't?

We're back at square one. You say prices are unfair. I say prices are representative of the value of people's time. Instead of trying to improve, you just shoot things down because you want an excuse to fail. 'Oh, drop rates are terrible'. 'Oh, that requires too many people'. 'Oh, that requires too much time'. 'Oh, I have a real life you know!'. 'Oh, I have no luck at all'.

Honestly, that's the biggest reason there's such a huge gap in the playerbase. People don't want to succeed. They just want to feel good about failing.