Welcome Back Tanaka !

[Alderin]

Nerfing jobs because their too lazy to fix the weaker ones.

Rewashing old armor (this time it's even AF gear !) due to pure laziness of creating new cosmetically appealing .DAT's. (regarding new VW drops).

Taking us back to SAM or gtfo days, by giving them a WS that is comparable to that of a legendary weapon wielding DD, which is obtained in 5 hours of merits.

I feel like I am lvl 75 again. \o/

/sarcasm

[Daniel_Hatcher]

This is getting boring now.

[Alhanelem]

in be4 personal attack delete.

You know, you'll get a much more fair chance to speak your mind if you don't make it personal.

[Tagrineth]

Because nerfing a weaponskill that literally eclipses every other weaponskill in the game hands down instead of making every job able to oneshot normal IT mobs is a bad idea?

[Tamoa]

Because nerfing a weaponskill that literally eclipses every other weaponskill in the game hands down instead of making every job able to oneshot normal IT mobs is a bad idea?

I'd like to see a war with access to Ukko's Fury 1shot an IT mob. Outside Abyssea (what's IT in abyssea anyway?).


Why do I get the feeling, judging by your post here and in other threads regarding this nerf, that it's jealousy speaking...

[Sparthos]

The problem wasnt nerfing Ukkos imo but claiming this was for balance while releasing Shoha which is overly powerful.

[Alhanelem]

I've seen shoha.... While I would be lying if I didn't feel Ukko was a bit... strong, nerfing this and leaving shoha alone seems a little unfair. I guess SE missed the dartboard with their darts, which means they had to fix SAM not being the best.

[Tsukiumi]

Shoha isn't as overly powerful as you all claim it to be, especially on tier 3+ Zilart/Jeuno NMs. Abyssea is no indicator on strength of things.

[Tamoa]

Shoha isn't as overly powerful as you all claim it to be, especially on tier 3+ Zilart/Jeuno NMs. Abyssea is no indicator on strength of things.

This.

To the best of my knowledge, Shoha is on par with or slightly better than Fudo. So I guess Fudo should be nerfed too then? Or are people screaming that Shoha needs to be nerfed because sam finally got a ws that isn't complete shit when in Abyssea?

[Runespider]

To the best of my knowledge, Shoha is on par with or slightly better than Fudo. So I guess Fudo should be nerfed too then? Or are people screaming that Shoha needs to be nerfed because sam finally got a ws that isn't complete shit when in Abyssea?

It's a fair bit stronger than Fudo, the new Magian GK craps on Masa too.

Thing I didn't like about the war nerfs personally was they did it now, they should of kept it and done it when they added proper new content. People are already kinda annoyed at how things are, why nerf their toy when feeling is as it is. Timing is everything.

[wish12oz]

To the best of my knowledge, Shoha is on par with or slightly better than Fudo. So I guess Fudo should be nerfed too then? Or are people screaming that Shoha needs to be nerfed because sam finally got a ws that isn't complete shit when in Abyssea?

Atoris (I think it was) said he did some testing and said Shona is 30% stronger then Ukkos (after the nerf) on the new hard VW mobs and that SAM has a 30% higher WS frequency then WAR. That switches the game to SAM or GTFO, moreso then it was at 75.

[Kimble]

I really wouldnt listen to Atoreis.

[Arcon]

It took SE over a year to nerf Ukko's. Shoha has only been out for a week. They won't nerf it until people all get it and level their SAM just for it and get relics just for it and get used to doing all the endgame events with SAMx15. Then they'll change the WSC to 5% CHR and in the same update they'll allow Desperate Blows to go over the Delay cap. They'll rotate this through every job, so that every job gets hated as the one overpowered job at one point in time.


[Signature removed by Moderator for being way too awesome and full of truth.]

Just curious, what was in your sig?

[Zarchery]

FFXI Official forum procedure at work!

1) Make a rude, sarcastic, post that insults the development team.
2) Complain that the development team doesn't listen to you.
3) Goto step 1.

[Zerich]

FFXI Official forum procedure at work!

1) Make a rude, sarcastic, post that insults the development team.
2) Complain that the development team doesn't listen to you.
3) Goto step 1.

you sir, have won

[wish12oz]

Just curious, what was in your sig?

Pchan quoted me in his sig and changed it a bit, so I quoted him also. But mine was better. To bad it only survived for like 3 or 4 months in my sig. =3


I really wouldnt listen to Atoreis.

He's not always right, but if he was wrong I think someone would of pointed it out.

EDIT::: Here's the post:

Nice trolling but I will answer anyway.

MNK has Impetus for 3min which boost crit rate by at least 10% and has some defensive capabilities.
NIN is not a pure DD and can take a big advantage from Innin on VW fights (85 Kannagi NIN I was parsing on last Kaggens had 1600 and 2000 avg :Hi)
CDC has DEX mod which let it cap dDEX by stacking DEX for WSC.

I parsed last Kaggens and wit 95 Ukonvasara I had avg 2250 and 2580 Ukko's.
SAM had 1980 and 2053 Shoha using Masamune.
I parsed Kaggen on test server today and avg Ukko was 1600.
SAM has now 30% stronger WS with 30% higher WS frequency.

[Tsukiumi]

Atoreis also apologized for overreacting, and restating that WAR is still the top DD over at the BG forums. And Shoha is only slightly stronger than Fudo on most content, and is consistently decent on Voidwatch Tier 3+. While I'm slightly sad that it's stronger than Fudo, I'm happy that they gave SAM a good WS that works consistently decent-good in Voidwatch.

Also, the only reason I'm still using my 90 Masamune instead of Magian TP bonus GK that I already have is for pride's sake =D

[Atomic_Skull]

Nerfing jobs because their too lazy to fix the weaker ones.


It's about time WAR and MNK got some comeuppance.

[Tsukiumi]

It's about time WAR and MNK got some comeuppance.

You've met some really unpleasant people then o.o All the MNKs and WARs I've met have been nice, fun people.

Edit: Got Ninja Edited XD

[SNK]

Shoha honestly works better then Fudo on high defense mobs. Otherwise Fudo is better.

[Sparthos]

FFXI Official forum procedure at work!

1) Make a rude, sarcastic, post that insults the development team.
2) Complain that the development team doesn't listen to you.
3) Goto step 1.

This implies SE listens if you come off rationally as I feel I have in most of my criticisms.

Guess what? SE doesn't care if you say "fuckity fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck this is broken" or "mlord, I beleive that SAM is brokenth beyondeth our wildest dreameth, dost thou intend to patch this problem?" because it both runs through the SE translator equally as 'ignore'.

[Potyhoty]

This implies SE listens if you come off rationally as I feel I have in most of my criticisms.

Guess what? SE doesn't care if you say "fuckity fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck this is broken" or "mlord, I beleive that SAM is brokenth beyondeth our wildest dreameth, dost thou intend to patch this problem?" because it both runs through the SE translator equally as 'ignore'.

...the sense of entitlement... it burns...

[Alderin]

in be4 personal attack delete.

You know, you'll get a much more fair chance to speak your mind if you don't make it personal.

Hasn't worked so far.



Guess what? SE doesn't care if you say "fuckity fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck this is broken" or "mlord, I beleive that SAM is brokenth beyondeth our wildest dreameth, dost thou intend to patch this problem?" because it both runs through the SE translator equally as 'ignore'.

^ This

[Sparthos]

...the sense of entitlement... it burns...

The lack of substance added to the conversation..... D:

[Alhanelem]

Hasn't worked so far.
Neither has the 3294872 "Welcome back Tanaka, you suck!" threads. And yes, there HAS been several of them.

[Sparthos]

Neither has the 3294872 "Welcome back Tanaka, you suck!" threads. And yes, there HAS been several of them.

The solution is to occupy Port Jeuno.

It'll be our very own Tahrir Square in a virtual world.

[Alerith]

To be honest, I'm actually a fan of the re-skinned surcoat stuff. Black PLD Relic with -damage taken, +enmity, +DD stats and set haste?

Oh no....please don't. /sarcasm

[Arcon]

Guess what? SE doesn't care if you say "fuckity fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck this is broken" or "mlord, I beleive that SAM is brokenth beyondeth our wildest dreameth, dost thou intend to patch this problem?" because it both runs through the SE translator equally as 'ignore'.

Right, SE didn't listen when we complained about overcrowded NMs. The two extra ??? were just never noticed before. They also didn't listen when we complained about Guku and Tunga. It was just bad random that we never saw the key items for them in chests before. And the Atma reinfusing and Atma quick selection have always been there, they were just triggered to show up only when the people started asking for it. And paralyze still eats items, the current functionality is just a glitch, I'm sure. And SE didn't listen to the THF who were dissatisfied with Bully. They just decided all on their own that they should enhance it the way all the THF wanted it to. And they didn't care that PUP were complaining about a lack of loving all this time, they just went ahead and gave them some anyway. Because that's just the kind of inconsiderate bastards they are.

[Kimble]

Right, SE didn't listen when we complained about overcrowded NMs. The two extra ??? were just never noticed before. They also didn't listen when we complained about Guku and Tunga. It was just bad random that we never saw the key items for them in chests before. And the Atma reinfusing and Atma quick selection have always been there, they were just triggered to show up only when the people started asking for it. And paralyze still eats items, the current functionality is just a glitch, I'm sure. And SE didn't listen to the THF who were dissatisfied with Bully. They just decided all on their own that they should enhance it the way all the THF wanted it to. And they didn't care that PUP were complaining about a lack of loving all this time, they just went ahead and gave them some anyway. Because that's just the kind of inconsiderate bastards they are.

Notice, how the only time they listened to the player base, was during the abyssea era? Maybe that is the mistake they were talking about, lol.

[Zirael]

Notice, how the only time they listened to the player base, was during the abyssea era? Maybe that is the mistake they were talking about, lol.
Check out the Abyssea Was a Mistake thread. Now Mizuki Ito is trying to pull a PR stunt and imply their words were "mistranslated" by translate.google.com. I say it's not the words that show their recent mindset, but their actions.

[Arcon]

Notice, how the only time they listened to the player base, was during the abyssea era? Maybe that is the mistake they were talking about, lol.

Are you kidding me? Everything I mentioned happened in the last half year (which was, again, half a year after the big bad returned to strike down on Vana'diel with great vengeance and furious anger), so right around the time Abyssea ended and Voidwatch took its place as the new endgame content. The paralyze fix was in the last update, so were the SCH and PUP additions (although they were in previous updates as well, also dating back half a year). That was less than two weeks ago. Did you already forget about that? Or are you trying to say that that's still the Abyssea era? If so, then what the hell are you complaining about?

[Vold]

Check out the Abyssea Was a Mistake thread. Now Mizuki Ito is trying to pull a PR stunt and imply their words were "mistranslated" by translate.google.com. I say it's not the words that show their recent mindset, but their actions.Well it is partly true, if you take a section of that interview, and run it through translation, first to JP then back to English, it comes out as this:

Original:

While most players would agree that the Abyssea series of add-ons breathed new life into the game, the consequences of such radical new content still weigh heavy on the developers who created it. Despite the positive response from the fans, Battle Director Mizuki Ito is quick to temper that excitement. "Abyssea wasn't all positive feedback," Ito admits. "There were negative aspects to it, too." In particular, the developers were concerned about game balance. "It became something a little different than what longtime FFXI players were used to. On the one hand, it was great that people enjoyed it, but there is also the loss of game balance to consider. Now we are going back into existing content to re-establish some balance."Machine Translated:

Most of the players of the add-on abyssea series, the new life to life in the game may agree to the new content to the fundamental result is still heavy, developers have to create it weighs The. From fans, despite a positive reaction to the fight director Mizuki Ito excitement quickly to anger. "All the positive feedback abyssea was not Ito," acknowledged. "There seems to the negative aspects of so much," was. In particular, game developers about the balance was concerned.It's a mess. Just imagine how it comes out in Japanese. But no matter how true this might be nothing beats actions speaking louder than words and Ito's response is serious spin business when so called balance is right there whispering into his ear, "bullsh!t. bullsh!t. keep a straight face. bullsh!t. sh!t they're on to us say something about mistrust and working to improve things. ..... Dude, run!"

♫ And Ito ran, Ito ran so far away ♫


Hiromichi Tanaka: This Optimus Prime sh!t is getting old >: (

[Runespider]

Are you kidding me? Everything I mentioned happened in the last half year (which was, again, half a year after the big bad returned to strike down on Vana'diel with great vengeance and furious anger), so right around the time Abyssea ended and Voidwatch took its place as the new endgame content. The paralyze fix was in the last update, so were the SCH and PUP additions (although they were in previous updates as well, also dating back half a year). That was less than two weeks ago. Did you already forget about that? Or are you trying to say that that's still the Abyssea era? If so, then what the hell are you complaining about?

Don't talk about the paralyze issue, that took them 7 years to fix, that's how long people complained about it. If that's listening they listen as well as my grandpa with his dodgy hearing aid.

The big communication era was about and during Abyssea content times, that's when stuff was complained about and acted on in a timely manner.

[Arcon]

Don't talk about the paralyze issue, that took them 7 years to fix, that's how long people complained about it. If that's listening they listen as well as my grandpa with his dodgy hearing aid.

Seven years of ignoring, now they fix it and you say now is the time when they don't listen anymore?

Even if your train of thought made any sense, it's just one example of many I mentioned.


The big communication era was about and during Abyssea content times, that's when stuff was complained about and acted on in a timely manner.

And yet you still fail to show me even one example of this.

Also, how exactly did the "communication" even take place? The forums themselves were created at the end of the Abyssea era. How did you communicate with them before? E-mails you sent in? Whatever they read on other forums? Is that what you call communication? There was hardly any communication at all for the last seven years (including the majority of the Abyssea time), because there simply wasn't any way to effectively submit feedback. Sure, some people may have actually bothered with e-mails, but it pales in comparison with now, when pretty much everyone who's interested in venting has the proper forum to do so.

[Hayward]

Doesn't it get tiring currying favor with the developers while they kick you in the stones, Arcon? No one with any sense takes you seriously anymore as you relentlessly aim for some kind of sushi-flavored doggie treat or something by arguing against legitimate complaints.

Sorry, Arcon, but the threads hammering the current development crew is quite justifiable. You know it. I know it. Anyone who has seen the pattern since Heroes knows it.

[Sparthos]

Right, SE didn't listen when we complained about overcrowded NMs. The two extra ??? were just never noticed before. They also didn't listen when we complained about Guku and Tunga. It was just bad random that we never saw the key items for them in chests before. And the Atma reinfusing and Atma quick selection have always been there, they were just triggered to show up only when the people started asking for it. And paralyze still eats items, the current functionality is just a glitch, I'm sure. And SE didn't listen to the THF who were dissatisfied with Bully. They just decided all on their own that they should enhance it the way all the THF wanted it to. And they didn't care that PUP were complaining about a lack of loving all this time, they just went ahead and gave them some anyway. Because that's just the kind of inconsiderate bastards they are.

You mean all those Abyssean era patches when they seemed to get that making an MMO means actually listening to the base and responding with patches within the year? I agree, SE did listen and they got their praise for that. We're in the Voidwatch era now and as you've seen the results of player concerns has been met with nerfs and silence.

Devs: Realmrazer will be nerfed, we feel it makes Hexa Strike seem useless.
Players: WTF? I'm a melee WHM and I LOVE REALMRAZER.
Devs: But your Hexa will be obsolete and that would be too powerful. Balance.
Players: So what's the point of Realmrazer if it will be nerfed?
Devs: Balance. We want Hexa Strike to remain on top because it is WHM unique and other classes to use Realmrazer.
Players: So a level 66 WS should trump a merited lvl99 WS? SE, BLU uses clubs maybe they can make use of Realmrazer right?!
Devs: Balance. We won't be adding any new clubs to BLU, we feel they should use swords.
Players: SE? This isn't making any sense, what are the practical applications of this weaponskill then? Club is already a marginal weapon only a WHM BLU or PLD would use, is this nerf even necessary?
Devs: Balance. Balance. Balance. Balance. *robo-dev catches fire*

It's almost as if different people were calling the shots.

Don't even bring up para eating items or PUP lol. That took what? Since Zilart/Aht launch to rectify? Sorry, the period to collect credit expired years ago.

[Deadvinta]

I'm only chuckling at myself because in the last couple of patches, every other job got spells, ablities or traits between 90 and 99. But WAR and MNK didn't get anything new other than the weaponskills. Instead, they get nerfs handed to them.

[Atomic_Skull]

I'm only chuckling at myself because in the last couple of patches, every other job got spells, ablities or traits between 90 and 99. But WAR and MNK didn't get anything new other than the weaponskills. Instead, they get nerfs handed to them.

And their tears are delicious.

[Kimble]

And their tears are delicious.

Your thf tears are more so.

[Arcon]

Sorry, Arcon, but the threads hammering the current development crew is quite justifiable. You know it. I know it. Anyone who has seen the pattern since Heroes knows it.

And I know and I agree. That's why I complain along with them. I'm not satisfied with much of what's going on. If you think that you obviously haven't read much of what I wrote on here (unless maybe over the course of the last two weeks). All I'm doing is pointing out the stupidity in other people's posts. That doesn't mean I praise SE. I praise them for the good things they do. I complain about the bad things they do. Saying they're pure evil and never listen is just as wrong as saying they're saints and always do everything right. Alright, maybe not just as wrong, but wrong nonetheless. There are a lot of legitimate complaints against SE out there. This isn't one of them. The things I criticize aren't matters of opinion, they're matters of fact. Saying "we have to bitch because SE doesn't care if we just complain normally" is what I'm trying to disprove here. I'm saying complaining does help (and I named just a handful of examples of why above). I'm also saying that bitching doesn't help and is tiring to read. I don't argue for SE, I argue against certain players' statements. Runespider is especially guilty of this, trying to mark Tanaka as the devil himself. Which is cool, since it's his opinion. But when he goes and starts to insult him and throw random (wrong) statements around, I will call him out.

I really don't get why people don't get this. Lately it seems I have to justify my actions more than actually argue against actual issues on here. Are you all in some anti-Tanaka cult together or something? And because I'm trying to say he's not the evil overlord you all have it in for me now? I honestly don't get it.


You mean all those Abyssean era patches when they seemed to get that making an MMO means actually listening to the base and responding with patches within the year? I agree, SE did listen and they got their praise for that. We're in the Voidwatch era now and as you've seen the results of player concerns has been met with nerfs and silence.

Again, how are those "Abyssea era" patches? Runespider already called them that, and I explained, in detail, why they aren't from the Abyssea era. They all happened within the last half year. I'd call that VW era. Or not? Explain why I'm wrong instead of just replaying Runespider's words.


Don't even bring up para eating items or PUP lol. That took what? Since Zilart/Aht launch to rectify? Sorry, the period to collect credit expired years ago.

Again, this is exactly what Runespider said. And I already told him, again, in detail, why that's not a real argument against it. Even if it was a problem for years, why didn't they fix it during the Abyssea era, if that was such a glorious time of communication and puppies? Why did they fix it only two weeks ago? Or is that still Abyssea era to you?

[Potyhoty]

The lack of substance added to the conversation..... D:

"Lack of substance"? What else do you want me to say? I don't feel the refrain of "OMG THEY ARE NOT LISTENING BECAUSE MY FAVORITE TOY IS BEING TAKEN AWAY" is worth humoring by saying anything else. I can do without "conversation" about that. Of course, the other option was to say nothing, but then, if I did that, that's like caving before I even started, and I refuse to let these pompous, self-aggrandizing, egotistical temper tantrums continue without at least commenting. So I'll humor you.

Yes, in point of fact, I agree with you that the WSs could be better, as they stand now, and no, I don't feel that SE has made the right move. But to think you are OH SO IMPORTANT that SE is so blown away by your OMGFEEDBACK that they must be IGNORING you, rather than... you know, thinking about how to fix it for the next update, or something sane like that. You, and people like you, are not, and will NEVER be, the only FFXI players worthy of consideration, and what you call YOUR ability to function in the game the way you want to... well, that's not yours and never was.

Sure, you can say "Well, if you do X, and Y, and Z, that will fix things", and you'd probably be at least partly right. But then you run the risk of upsetting people that say "OMG THINGS ARE UNBALANCED NOW BECAUSE MY JOB IS NERFED/THIS OTHER JOB IS NOW SOOOOO OP" because of THEIR overweening sense of entitlement, and the cycle starts all over again.

The other option is for SE to stop, take stock of things, go through a few meetings, and then slowly try to address issues,but oh no, that takes SO LOOOOOOOONG, YOU'RE BEING IGNORED.

And don't give me any bullshit about "everyone hates the new WSs/cares about the new .dats/misses the level of power they had with their jobs", that's false consensus at work. Sure, the people who complain about it don't like it, but that's all we know because the others aren't talking, because it's not worth the effort arguing with someone who's already angry to start with.

And this stuff about repainting .dats... Could you find something more inconsequential to complain about? Seriously, it makes you look like an ass. "Laziness" has nothing to do with it, rather not having the money to pay graphic designers has something to do with it. Yeah, it's not great, and I'd love new armor looks too, but seriously... that was a low blow with no possible constructive consequence.

Yeah, you're frustrated, and I want to say I understand why, but I'd be lying because I don't. All I see is someone complaining because the world doesn't sufficiently revolve around him. And if you'd tried, you could probably have extrapolated most of that from my original comment, but you didn't, and chose to essentially say "Yeah, I'm entitled, so what?" So I've probably wasted my time. Oh well.

ETA: I should add, because I forgot, that there is absolutely nothing wrong with complaining, and it serves a useful function. It is, after all, what SE claims they created these forums for. But there's a line after which complaining stops being constructive and starts feeding on itself and existing for its own sake. There's a line between "This is wrong" and "This is wrong and you're lazy for not having fixed it yet", in other words. Please grow up.

[Sparthos]

"Lack of substance"? What else do you want me to say? I don't feel the refrain of "OMG THEY ARE NOT LISTENING BECAUSE MY FAVORITE TOY IS BEING TAKEN AWAY" is worth humoring by saying anything else. I can do without "conversation" about that. Of course, the other option was to say nothing, but then, if I did that, that's like caving before I even started, and I refuse to let these pompous, self-aggrandizing, egotistical temper tantrums continue without at least commenting. So I'll humor you.

I dont know how many times I've said that my commentary on SE isn't meant to be compel the developers because I'm aware that nothing and I mean nothing will ever get through to these guys be it from a Japanese source, EU or NA. Sorry, but the Sparthos who thinks that he can change the minds of Ito, Tanaka and co. is on another forum - the one inside your head. I'm just here for the lulz, the occasional dissection of others logic and you're free to do the same to all my posts.

Egotistical? Don't make me laugh. Nothing I've said hasn't been said by numerous voices before me and will continue to be said so long as SE continues to remind individuals why XI has been the way it's been for years.


Yes, in point of fact, I agree with you that the WSs could be better, as they stand now, and no, I don't feel that SE has made the right move. But to think you are OH SO IMPORTANT that SE is so blown away by your OMGFEEDBACK that they must be IGNORING you, rather than... you know, thinking about how to fix it for the next update, or something sane like that. You, and people like you, are not, and will NEVER be, the only FFXI players worthy of consideration, and what you call YOUR ability to function in the game the way you want to... well, that's not yours and never was.

Stop being a moron. What I have said about the weaponskills is the same thing HUNDREDS of people have said yet you think I claim this feedback as my own? No, I'm just projecting that SE can have the answers right before them (NA have said it, JP have said it and EU say it) yet still make the wrong decision because the dev team operates in vacuum and can't see when the base thinks a bad idea is bad.

It's amusing really.


Sure, you can say "Well, if you do X, and Y, and Z, that will fix things", and you'd probably be at least partly right. But then you run the risk of upsetting people that say "OMG THINGS ARE UNBALANCED NOW BECAUSE MY JOB IS NERFED/THIS OTHER JOB IS NOW SOOOOO OP" because of THEIR overweening sense of entitlement, and the cycle starts all over again.

Someone's going to complain if Resqiscat becomes marginally more useful? If Entropy got a boost? If Voidwatch goes from completely random logs/ore to a point system? You're damn right someone will but that's irrelevant as the overall reception is what matters.

People don't like the random aspect of Voidwatch and SE's solution? Add a white proc under the logic that more kills = better chance at loot while completely missing the point that the likelihood of going 0/200 is still possible or watching some person get the HQ drop 5x and toss it cause they can only hold one.

Uh SE, that isn't what was asked for.

This is the problem plaguing SE. Time and time again they refuse to get ahead of the problem and squash it before it becomes a widespread issue that threatens/annoys/infuriates the base. Voidwatch? WoE? The Relic/Mythic/Empyrean upgrade issues? There is a whole thread on the insanity of 500 PW kills for a 99 Mythic that could have been resolved by one statement from a dev:

"We had no intention to ever set the Mythic 99 requirements at 500 Wardens. This was merely a placeholder number used during development and does not reflect in any way on the finished product."

Did we get that? Nope and so the base is further led to questioning if SE is returning to insanity grinds.


The other option is for SE to stop, take stock of things, go through a few meetings, and then slowly try to address issues,but oh no, that takes SO LOOOOOOOONG, YOU'RE BEING IGNORED.

Address things slowly.... now that's a side-splitter. You mean like how it took 3 years to finish WOTG? How everything is always delayed? I know content isn't built overnight but lets be serious, should the base have to wait years for simple WS tweaks or correcting minor discrepancies? This has been an issue with SE from the time this game was being funded well right up to the present.

Sometime the years they take to address issues winds up being either too little, too late or complete fail from the jump. It isn't like time makes some of these SE decisions better as you still have a good likelihood of getting utter rubbish. This is partially why people were so stunned at how quick issues regarding Abyssea were being addressed because for a microsecond SE was behaving like a top-tier MMO developer and people liked it.


And don't give me any bullshit about "everyone hates the new WSs/cares about the new .dats/misses the level of power they had with their jobs", that's false consensus at work. Sure, the people who complain about it don't like it, but that's all we know because the others aren't talking, because it's not worth the effort arguing with someone who's already angry to start with.

Except the issue isn't about all the new weaponskills? It's about the completely stupid logic the devs gave regarding Realmrazer, Resquiscat, Ruinator and Entropy and further to their concepts of balance. Bringing up level 60 weaponskills you naturally learn versus weaponskills that are supposed to capstone jobs after grinding many merits shows how out of touch SE is with the word 'progression'.

Yeah, weaponskills like Shoha/Last Stand have no problems smoking their previous incarnations but suddenly balance must be preserved between Rampage/Ruinator and Hexa/Realmrazer? Give me a break and be consistent SE. I understood the Ukko's nerf but to then give SAM an extremely powerful WS in Shoha with absolutely no balancer (like a CHR or INT mod)? Wut.

[Ravenmore]

The white knighters for SE for this game are just as sad as those for FF14. Look how long it took them to kick Tanaka off FF14 and admit they $%^ed up, it only took them not even getting 50k players to play a FREE game. Yet the white knighters will continue to defend a Company that can't even get people to play a free game. So white Knighter how does it feel for for all the money you give SE to be wasted on FF14, because its clear very little makes it back into FFXI.

[Potyhoty]

I dont know how many times I've said that my commentary on SE isn't meant to be compel the developers because I'm aware that nothing and I mean nothing will ever get through to these guys be it from a Japanese source, EU or NA.

Ah, ok. But you claim that SE is "ignoring" you (and, parenthetically, others), based on 2 weeks of them doing nothing over the holidays? How is that different from expecting to "compel" them?


Egotistical? Don't make me laugh. Nothing I've said hasn't been said by numerous voices before me and will continue to be said so long as SE continues to remind individuals why XI has been the way it's been for years.

Yeah, many voices (many, many voices) agree with you, and they're not all wrong either. The people that disagree with you, on the other hand, mostly say nothing because there's nothing they're unhappy about. They're not all wrong either, though, and I think dismissing them is pretty egotistical, yeah.


Stop being a moron. What I have said about the weaponskills is the same thing HUNDREDS of people have said yet you think I claim this feedback as my own? No, I'm just projecting that SE can have the answers right before them (NA have said it, JP have said it and EU say it) yet still make the wrong decision because the dev team operates in vacuum and can't see when the base thinks a bad idea is bad.

STOP TRYING TO SPEAK FOR THE PLAYER BASE. YOU CANNOT.

You are NOT the base, nor is anyone else who happens to agree with you (possibly including me). THIS is what I mean by egotism. I am not a moron for pointing this out. YOU thinking SE has the answers before them =/= SE actually having the answers before them, except in your myopic worldview.


Someone's going to complain if Resqiscat becomes marginally more useful? If Entropy got a boost? If Voidwatch goes from completely random logs/ore to a point system? You're damn right someone will but that's irrelevant as the overall reception is what matters.

Indeed. I agree with you there. But there are many people, casual players, who think the points system is a bad idea because hardcore players will end up monopolizing the gear, and then we have the original FFXI endgame all over again. But oh, that's not a concern, because those players don't DESERVE the items, right...?

Again, not saying I disagree with you (I don't), just saying that a lot of people disagree with us. And dismissing the concerns of those who do as "in a minority" is... not egotistical, but egocentric, especially since you don't have the stats in front of you (and even if you did, there's still a lot of caution that you're throwing to the wind).


People don't like the random aspect of Voidwatch

"People" being you and me and most of the other people on the forums apparently dedicated to complaining about things that SE has done wrong (and, in fairness, there's a lot to complain about). NOT the entire player base, or even most of it, necessarily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consensus_effect


This is the problem plaguing SE. Time and time again they refuse to get ahead of the problem

(as defined by people who complain on the forums)


and squash it before it becomes a widespread issue that threatens/annoys/infuriates the base.

(as defined by people who complain on the forums)


Voidwatch? WoE? The Relic/Mythic/Empyrean upgrade issues? There is a whole thread on the insanity of 500 PW kills for a 99 Mythic that could have been resolved by one statement from a dev:

"We had no intention to ever set the Mythic 99 requirements at 500 Wardens. This was merely a placeholder number used during development and does not reflect in any way on the finished product."

Yeah, that could have helped, for sure. SE screwed up there.


Did we get that? Nope and so the base is further led to questioning if SE is returning to insanity grinds.

(as defined by people who complain on the forums)


Address things slowly.... now that's a side-splitter. You mean like how it took 3 years to finish WOTG? How everything is always delayed?

Yes, like that.


I know content isn't built overnight but lets be serious, should the base have to wait years for simple WS tweaks or correcting minor discrepancies? This has been an issue with SE from the time this game was being funded well right up to the present.

2 months =/= 3 years. And yes, I'd rather things were done well in the first place. "Those who act in haste oft repent at leisure." I'm not saying this will always be the case, and certainly SE has messed up things by waiting too long, but I don't see how that applies to the current situation.


Sometime the years they take to address issues winds up being either too little, too late or complete fail from the jump. It isn't like time makes some of these SE decisions better as you still have a good likelihood of getting utter rubbish.

(as defined by people who complain on the forums)


Except the issue isn't about all the new weaponskills? It's about the completely stupid logic the devs gave regarding Realmrazer, Resquiscat, Ruinator and Entropy and further to their concepts of balance. Bringing up level 60 weaponskills you naturally learn versus weaponskills that are supposed to capstone jobs after grinding many merits shows how out of touch SE is with the word 'progression'.

And who said it was supposed to be a "progression" as opposed to a side-grade? Oh, that's right, you did.


Yeah, weaponskills like Shoha/Last Stand have no problems smoking their previous incarnations but suddenly balance must be preserved between Rampage/Ruinator and Hexa/Realmrazer? Give me a break and be consistent SE. I understood the Ukko's nerf but to then give SAM an extremely powerful WS in Shoha with absolutely no balancer (like a CHR or INT mod)? Wut.

Yeah, you're right about that, to be sure, as things stand now.

Man... I feel dirty for being angry, like I've infected myself with the disease here. Just taken big handfuls of filthy water and chugged them right down. I'm going to have a heart attack at this rate, and yet for some reason, it's too compelling to stop. I don't mean to insult or degrade you, I really don't. I'm having a tough time getting that across, though.

Ravenmore: If you think I'm white-knighting, please read my posts again. Thank you.

[Gokku]

And who said it was supposed to be a "progression" as opposed to a side-grade? Oh, that's right, you did.


so what your saying is level 60+ is no longer progression, and from 60-99 everything we do and earn is justifiably a side-grade?

[Ravenmore]

Said it in another thread, the White Knights for FF11 are just as sad as those for FF14. They want to defend SE and everything they do cause they think that is what a loyel fan(boy) does. Its a freaking Pve game why do they have to nerf anything they could bring the other jobs up. The reason they don't bring the other jobs up is they are dumping nearly every bit of profit from FF11 into the money pit called FF14 so nerfing jobs is easier and cheaper then doing the work needed to buff and balance.

That is what you White Knights of SE are defending, lazy cheap get by for the least amount of investment. I can't wait till FF14 2.0 to be eatten alive in the reviews. They will point to its failed launch, SE slow reactions, not listening to feed back and last but not least how badly they treated the other mmo that was making them a profit.

[Runespider]

Indeed. I agree with you there. But there are many people, casual players, who think the points system is a bad idea because hardcore players will end up monopolizing the gear, and then we have the original FFXI endgame all over again. But oh, that's not a concern, because those players don't DESERVE the items, right...?

A points system is good for everyone, for casuals they can join proper shells setup to get gear from VW and hardcore players can make proper progress instead of the current totally random unrewarding mess. Current system puts casuals off more than hardcore because after 10+ runs getting nothing they won't wanna do it anymore.

[Ravenmore]

A points system is good for everyone, for casuals they can join proper shells setup to get gear from VW and hardcore players can make proper progress instead of the current totally random unrewarding mess. Current system puts casuals off more than hardcore because after 10+ runs getting nothing they won't wanna do it anymore.

I think he might be missing the point and confusing player based point sustem with game based point system. What Runspider wants is a point system like assault not a player based system like DKP.

[Potyhoty]

Said it in another thread, the White Knights for FF11 are [snip]

First of all, I assume you mean PvE. Second, are you reading what I said? What about what I'm saying strikes you as white-knighting? I'm not defending SE, I'm attacking YOU for being so ugly about their mistakes. You're ending up looking even worse than they are, IMO.


so what your saying is level 60+ is no longer progression, and from 60-99 everything we do and earn is justifiably a side-grade?

No, that's not what I'm saying. Personally (and I am talking JUST personally here, I am NOT demanding that things change) it always irked me that once you got a new WS, the others became more or less completely useless and were just taking up space. And unlike gear where you have to make decisions as to what to carry and wear, the weapon skills are just speed bumps. I would like to see WSs develop into more of a situational tool where skill is required to know which WS to use.

But that's just me, and there's certainly nothing wrong with wanting the current system to extend further. In fact, it does make a bit more sense that way. There is however, at least in my view, something wrong with DEMANDING it based on YOUR assumption of how the game should progress, and being all angry when SE or anyone else doesn't cave immediately.


A points system is good for everyone, for casuals they can join proper shells setup to get gear from VW and hardcore players can make proper progress instead of the current totally random unrewarding mess. Current system puts casuals off more than hardcore because after 10+ runs getting nothing they won't wanna do it anymore.

Well, I agree. But not everyone is gonna see it that way, especially if the point costs are high for the really good items. Yeah, it would be unjustifiable in my view for people to whine and say they'll never get a fazheluo mail because they have to do voidwatch, say, 100 times. But you know it will happen. What makes you so sure that our concerns are the "majority" or "eminent" or "compelling"? Just because we have them?



Look, I agree with the gist of what you all are saying, I'm just arguing for a modicum of civil discourse instead of this constant whining about how "we're being ignored". It's not only unproductive to expect SE to listen to us just because we happen to be right, it's also quite unseemly. We made our point, there's a possibility they've listened even if they haven't done anything yet, so we should shut up instead of QQing all over the place and being all OMG ANGRY because you're ENTITLED to having things fixed the way YOU want and when YOU want, REGARDLESS OF HOW RIGHT YOU ARE.

And yes, I'm whining and angry quite a lot myself, which seems like a contradiction, but it isn't. You are (I hope) the sole agents responsible for your own behavior, unlike SE. So if I'm white-knighting for anything, it's not SE, but rather the prerogative a company has to listen to their entire player base, not just a vocal minority like us.

[Meyi]

And I know and I agree. That's why I complain along with them. I'm not satisfied with much of what's going on.

If you agree then stop arguing, please.


All I'm doing is pointing out the stupidity in other people's posts.

You're also being a condescending jerk when you do it. Cut it out. There's a difference between pointing out the flaws in someone's argument and being an ass.


But when he goes and starts to insult him and throw random (wrong) statements around, I will call him out.

At least do it maturely.


I really don't get why people don't get this. Lately it seems I have to justify my actions more than actually argue against actual issues on here. Are you all in some anti-Tanaka cult together or something? And because I'm trying to say he's not the evil overlord you all have it in for me now? I honestly don't get it.

No, we're just anti-rudeness. :/ I don't know Tanaka well enough to judge his personality or morale and therefore I refrain from judging him. I think the majority of people on this board are angry because they feel they are being ignored by the very people who are supposed to be listening to them. We are their paying customers, and they should be trying to please at least 51% of us.

The only reason we have it out for you is because of your tactless attacks. Nobody cares if you tell it from the developer's point of view -- I actually think that's quite charming and balanced. However, the way you go about presenting your side is disgusting and pisses us off.


Again, how are those "Abyssea era" patches? Runespider already called them that, and I explained, in detail, why they aren't from the Abyssea era. They all happened within the last half year. I'd call that VW era. Or not? Explain why I'm wrong instead of just replaying Runespider's words.

I say no because Abyssea was still huge just six months ago. Six months ago was late June. Abyssea was pretty huge even into September. I remember when I quit for college classes around October/November everyone was still doing Abyssea nonstop, with Voidwatch just starting to creep into the picture. When I came back in late November/early December, Voidwatch had become the new thing and Abyssea, while it's still being played in today, has lost its throne.

So no I'd say it mostly happened during the Abyssea era. The ???s were for Abyssea NMs, you know.

[Ravenmore]

Yes I did mean PvE was going to go with a differant way saying it wasn't PvP but change my mind and mis-type.

Franky we tried the wait and see and the postive feed back. Now its time they know how digusted we are with them. They as a comapny need to be punished which looking at thier recent decline in sells they are feeling the pain but are just to stuck in their ways to change. Also its is the whole player base that is pissed look at the jps they saying the same things as us. The sells in Japan of FF13-2 only hit about 500k the first week while 13 did twice that on the first day. FF14 has around 30k player and its free. There is no hope for that game its is DEAD yet they will keep throwing the money we pay for FF11 at it.

People are pisssed cause we are still paying the same price we were when we were getting more content. Comapnies don't listen to nice well happy time compaints they listen when the outrage becomes defaning and they can't look the other way

[Potyhoty]

I think the majority of people on this board are angry because they feel they are being ignored by the very people who are supposed to be listening to them. We are their paying customers, and they should be trying to please at least 51% of us.

Not that you asked me, but I would add that I feel it's deeply arrogant for this person or that person to assume they're in that 51% just because they're right and a bunch of people IN THEIR SUBCOMMUNITY (aka the forums) agree with them. They may well be, of course, but in my view even that doesn't justify the vitriol they're spewing.


Franky we tried the wait and see and the postive feed back. Now its time they know how digusted we are with them. They as a comapny need to be punished which looking at thier recent decline in sells they are feeling the pain but are just to stuck in their ways to change.

Yeah, that's certainly a plausible explanation. There are others, though, but I'm not talking politics on here.


Also its is the whole player base that is pissed look at the jps they saying the same things as us.

*headdesk* False. The people on the forums, any forums, JP or NA or EU or all together, are NOT the whole player base.


The sells in Japan of FF13-2 only hit about 500k the first week while 13 did twice that on the first day. FF14 has around 30k player and its free. There is no hope for that game its is DEAD yet they will keep throwing the money we pay for FF11 at it.

Yeah, there was a substantial contigent of people who didn't like FFXIII. Most of my friends didn't, I'm kinda lukewarm on it myself. But hype sold FFXIII, not content.

And you don't know FFXIV is dead. I don't know it's dead. Stop armchair CEOing, it makes you look like an idiot. Yeah, it probably is, but that's not your call, and this kind of behavior helps nothing.


People are pisssed cause we are still paying the same price we were when we were getting more content. Comapnies don't listen to nice well happy time compaints they listen when the outrage becomes defaning and they can't look the other way

And you think a vocal minority getting REALLY pissy on feedback forums = "outrage"? No, you have to be able to speak for the people NOT on the forums, at least most of them. How do you intend to do that? Because you don't have the credentials to claim to know what they want. None of us do.

And there are plenty of companies that listen to nice happy time complaints. Those complaints, though, actually have to reflect a majority of the user base. If that isn't there, it doesn't really matter what the complaints sound like, they will (usually) be given attention proportional to the number of people complaining, which all in all, isn't that large, despite what all of you seem to think.

Now, SE might not work that way, but most companies do. Point is, it's incredibly arrogant to say "Well, most of the people on the forums feel this way, therefore we ARE the majority of the player base!". No, you're not.

Besides, they do things differently in Japan, you know? Even the bottom line often isn't enough over there, not if they would lose more face in the eyes of their investors (NOT the paying public) by caving than they would by staying the course. And outrage from a vocal minority of the player base, no matter how right it is, =/= losing face in the eyes of their investors.

[Ravenmore]

Its not just people agreeing its all over every single Forum for FF11. Then there is the fact that the last project Tanaka worked on was a such a failure that the company admitted it was. While I don't hold him solely to blame he is a symtom of the poison that has set in at SE.

[Potyhoty]

Its not just people agreeing its all over every single Forum for FF11.

...You're not much for reading comprehension, are you? THE FORUMS, EVEN ALL OF THEM TAKEN TOGETHER ARE NOT THE PLAYER BASE, NOT EVEN CLOSE. There's a HUGE self-selection bias there.


Then there is the fact that the last project Tanaka worked on was a such a failure that the company admitted it was. While I don't hold him solely to blame he is a symtom of the poison that has set in at SE.

That I agree with, to some extent at least.

[Ravenmore]

Yes the forums do repersent the player base just like polls can any large group of people. People are voting with their money. For any Final Fantasy tilte to do that bad in Japan its a sign of decay. I have seen what happens when owners don't listen to what the customers want.

[Potyhoty]

Yes the forums do repersent the player base just like polls can any large group of people.

*facepalm* No, no, no. The forums are a very small sample size with, like I said, a HUGE self-selection bias. Any pollster worth their salt would NOT draw conclusions based on a poll that covered even 10% of the player base, to say nothing of the other methodological problems involved. Not to mention that there's no confidence interval or anything. Really careless. Please learn some stats or at least experimental design before you start shooting off at the mouth about that.

Yeah, FFXIII-2 is a sign of decay. There was also a recession and a tsunami, which would have had their long-term effects too. Deciding that this is all about "not listening to the customer" is fundamentally arrogant and misguided. Not saying it's a bad theory, but CONCLUDING IT based on this fragmentary evidence is a bad idea.

[Alerith]

http://i.imgur.com/7sUom.jpg

[Ravenmore]

*facepalm* No, no, no. The forums are a very small sample size with, like I said, a HUGE self-selection bias. Any pollster worth their salt would NOT draw conclusions based on a poll that covered even 10% of the player base, to say nothing of the other methodological problems involved. Not to mention that there's no confidence interval or anything. Really careless. Please learn some stats or at least experimental design before you start shooting off at the mouth about that.

Yeah, FFXIII-2 is a sign of decay. There was also a recession and a tsunami, which would have had their long-term effects too. Deciding that this is all about "not listening to the customer" is fundamentally arrogant and misguided. Not saying it's a bad theory, but CONCLUDING IT based on this evidence is a bad idea.

People will also be unwilling to waste their money on a comapy that is refuse to get with the times. far to long they have traded on name alone and the fact they sold over a millon copies of 14 and only 30k play it for free is another sign. They are now seeing that name alone has limits. Other people will just leave with out voicing thier reasons for dong so.

Something that SE should take time to add is a survay that is not a option when you cancel, a simple muti-chioce and a optional essay section.

[Potyhoty]

People will also be unwilling to waste their money on a comapy that is refuse to get with the times. far to long they have traded on name alone and the fact they sold over a millon copies of 14 and only 30k play it for free is another sign. They are now seeing that name alone has limits. Other people will just leave with out voicing thier reasons for dong so.

True enough.


Something that SE should take time to add is a survay that is not a option when you cancel, a simple muti-chioce and a optional essay section.

hmm. Yeah, I like the sounds of that. Not saying they'll do it, most people will probably be angry enough to just fill in whatever trolling comments they want, but it might be worthwhile if enough people cancel. Of course, then they'll have to deal with a bunch of whiners saying "I don't wanna" and calling SE to complain about it... but hey, you know? It might still be worth doing.

Nonetheless, there's still a self-selection bias because the people who don't quit don't have to fill out the survey, so the results are still skewed. That's why, in the science business, we say "The results support the hypothesis" or "The results fail to support the hypothesis", NEVER "The results PROVE the hypothesis".

[FrankReynolds]

*facepalm* No, no, no. The forums are a very small sample size with, like I said, a HUGE self-selection bias. Any pollster worth their salt would NOT draw conclusions based on a poll that covered even 10% of the player base, to say nothing of the other methodological problems involved. Not to mention that there's no confidence interval or anything. Really careless. Please learn some stats or at least experimental design before you start shooting off at the mouth about that.

Yeah, FFXIII-2 is a sign of decay. There was also a recession and a tsunami, which would have had their long-term effects too. Deciding that this is all about "not listening to the customer" is fundamentally arrogant and misguided. Not saying it's a bad theory, but CONCLUDING IT based on this fragmentary evidence is a bad idea.

So basically..... until SE shuts down the servers followed by a a mass firing of all Final Fantasy related staff members, and a formal apology citing their failure to listen to the wants of the customer base, backed up with their own statistics, and and pie chart for visual aid, you won't believe that the player base is pissed.

That's cool. Being as you have no statistical evidence to support your theory, and you are making statistical accuracy the point that you are arguing so vehemently in a forum almost entirely dedicated to how pissed people are... I'm gonna have to take everything you say as an attempt to provide misinformation. Just because people don't post on a forum doesn't mean that they don't feel the same way as the forum posters. Your attempting to make everyone believe that every person who does not post feels the same way that you do. However you don't represent the player base any more than the angry people do. Your argument is null and void.

[Potyhoty]

So basically..... until SE shuts down the servers followed by a a mass firing of all Final Fantasy related staff members, and a formal apology citing their failure to listen to the wants of the customer base, backed up with their own statistics, and and pie chart for visual aid, you won't believe that the player base is pissed.

Never said that. I never said that the player base WASN'T pissed. I said that THIS does not show that they are, and it's stupid and arrogant to CONCLUDE that they are, just like it's stupid and arrogant to CONCLUDE that they're not. What I believe is neither here nor there.

And no, a simple survey, while not perfect, would do a HELL of a lot more to get an idea of what the player base is thinking than reading any forums. There would still have to be some caution in interpretation, though, but there are statistical techniques to allow for this. Forums are for qualitative research only.


Your attempting to make everyone believe that every person who does not post feels the same way that you do.

Please show me where I said that. I actually agree with most people here on the issues themselves.


However you don't represent the player base any more than the angry people do. Your argument is null and void.

No, my argument is that it's wrong for us to ASSUME we know what the player base is thinking, and especially wrong for us to RAGE expecting SE to have the same little myopic picture that the forums provide. The argument you seem to think I was making IS null and void, though, you're right about that. And if someone were to rage at SE and saying "THE PLAYER BASE WANTS SAM TO BE UBER/TO KEEP VW DROPS RANDOM/ETC., WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO US?" I'd be just as angry, if not more so since I actually would disagree with that person.

[FrankReynolds]

No, my argument is that it's wrong for us to ASSUME we know what the player base is thinking, and especially wrong for us to RAGE expecting SE to have the same little myopic picture that the forums provide.

Being as they have only asked for a poll one time so far on anything content related, and they ignored the winning tally, I would say that they feel like they learn all they need to know about the way the players feel through the forum, and they don't care very much. As far as the usefulness of raging... I would rather people rage on here for change, in hopes of somehow convincing the devs to do things right, rather than have them silently speak with their wallets. Everyone likes to act tough and tell the angry players "good! Quit then! we don't need you anyways!" but the reality is that the fewer players there are, the smaller the budget gets. Eventually that leads to a game getting warrior nerfs at 99 instead of new expansions that warrior / white Mage can't duo.


The only honest arguments I could see against People venting on forums are :

A) What if we piss the devs off, and they just plain crap on us.
B) I just like to pick other peoples posts apart, knowing fully that I will never change their opinion.

A. is a pretty legitimate argument. What's telling is that no one has taken it seriously yet, because I think in all honesty, even the people who try to defend the devs know that the devs don't really care what we are talking about on here much.

[Potyhoty]

Being as they have only asked for a poll one time so far on anything content related, and they ignored the winning tally, I would say that they feel like they learn all they need to know about the way the players feel through the forum, and they don't care very much.

Well, I would argue they learned just as much or more based on server logs and job usage statistics, which they don't have to ask us for (assuming they're collecting them). Gives a more balanced picture, too... problem is that we don't have access to that picture, and there are very important things that that picture doesn't tell them anyway, which is where the forums are supposed to come in handy.

Giving us a poll would be a face-losing thing for them too. Too bad, because it would be really useful.


As far as the usefulness of raging... I would rather people rage on here for change, in hopes of somehow convincing the devs to do things right, rather than have them silently speak with their wallets.

Agreed. Like I've said before, I think complaining (even raging) serves a useful function. What drives me around the bend is raging based on the assumption that the majority agrees with you and therefore the other party is "ignoring" you in not complying. This is why I started out by talking about a "sense of entitlement". Raging itself is neither good nor bad in my books. That sort of myopic arrogance is quite bad.

And I considered saying something along the lines of a), but to be perfectly honest, the communication goes through so many channels that by the time it gets to the devs, the rage aspect of it is mostly insulated anyway. The community moogles are the ones who have to put up with us, and they're powerless to do anything. In order for it to be completely effective, the devs, including Tanaka, would have to participate in the forums themselves, which will never, ever happen.

Anyway, time to take a break. Need to get my heart rate down.

[FrankReynolds]

The thing is, they don't need to look at any data whatsoever to know that things like void watch drop rates suck. They built them that way. Then they actually came in the forums and defended them. Meaning they knew that people thought they sucked. Their argument wasn't "We're sorry that you don't like the drop system, however, most players think it's great, so we are leaving it as is.". Their argument was "We think it's fine, so were leaving it as is.". The one poll they posted was done in a way that angered almost English speaking person that read it.

You can't do stuff like that, and then pretend that it never happened without pissing some people off, and them ignoring the input because it only represents a handful out of players out of hundreds of thousands is only a valid excuse if they actually attempt to ask the other players. Polls are insanely easy to make. Its pretty clear they don't take them because they don't really want to make the game in a way that suites the player.

It should be fairly obvious to all parties involved that nerfing jobs instead of developing stronger content is a crappy idea. I don't need a degree in statistics to know what the outcome of a poll that says:

should we

A) make new zones, bosses, NMS, Gear and storylines geared towards level 99 characters? Or

B) make jobs weaker so that the stuff we already made is more difficult?

Call me arrogant if you want, but The people who voted for B are probably not the kind of people you want your monthly service income to rely on.

[Potyhoty]

Their argument wasn't "We're sorry that you don't like the drop system, however, most players think it's great, so we are leaving it as is.". Their argument was "We think it's fine, so were leaving it as is.".

Yeah, VW... well, I think they're trying to overcome their previous mistakes, and failing until they come up with something that pleases everybody, like a points system. They just haven't gotten that far yet, and that's their fault. There's nothing saying they won't move to a point system like Assault in the next update, which would be awesome. Of course, there's also nothing saying they will. Most people who hate the current system were calling for drops to go to the treasure pool, which I feel is an even worse idea.


The one poll they posted was done in a way that angered almost English speaking person that read it.

I'm assuming you have stats on that? I don't remember whether it offended me so I guess it must not have. But hey, maybe they got so much negative feedback on the poll that they decided not to do polls anymore because they apparently don't "suit the player" :p


You can't do stuff like that, and then pretend that it never happened without pissing some people off, and them ignoring the input because it only represents a handful out of players out of hundreds of thousands is only a valid excuse if they actually attempt to ask the other players. Polls are insanely easy to make. Its pretty clear they don't take them because they don't really want to make the game in a way that suites the player.

No, that's not at all clear. And no, I'm not convinced they're "ignoring" anyone. This is what pisses me off about what you're saying. They heard you, and if they didn't hear you, they heard someone else that agrees with you. But they can't just drop everything and implement a new system that's perfect right from the get-go, they'll screw up badly and end up alienating even more players that way, especially due to the feedback of a vocal minority. "Suiting the player" is a dangerous game, and it's likely to backfire in many cases, depending on what the demands of "the player" (as evidenced by said minority) are. If they suited "the player" and changed it right away, we'd be back to a treasure pool system, which IMO would be horrible. And a points system would have to be plotted out carefully before being implemented so that people don't rage about it being unbalanced. (You're listening, SE, right? RIGHT?)


It should be fairly obvious to all parties involved that nerfing jobs instead of developing stronger content is a crappy idea.

Yeah, but I'm not convinced that's what they're doing yet, just that it looks that way. I'm willing to have faith that they have a plan for the new WSs that requires these nerfs. Call me crazy, but I do. I realize I'm probably in the minority here, though. And even if I'm wrong, I don't think it will take that long to fix it. Your mileage may vary, of course.


I don't need a degree in statistics to know what the outcome of a poll that says:

should we

A) make new zones, bosses, NMS, Gear and storylines geared towards level 99 characters? Or

B) make jobs weaker so that the stuff we already made is more difficult?

Well, no, not if you phrase the poll that way.


Call me arrogant if you want, but The people who voted for B are probably not the kind of people you want your monthly service income to rely on.

True, but if they have a bigger plan of which these are a part, then yeah, they don't want to derail it until the whole thing is done. Of course, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, and feel free to call me out on it. My point is that I feel it's premature to call it at this point. Obviously you don't, and that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

[FrankReynolds]

I'm assuming you have stats on that? I don't remember whether it offended me so I guess it must not have. But hey, maybe they got so much negative feedback on the poll that they decided not to do polls anymore because they apparently don't "suit the player" :p


It was in the beast master thread. They gave a choice of several new pets that they were thinking of adding. They had a couple that were already set in stone, and they offered the players a chance to vote for the last one. The one with the most votes was not added, and instead they put in the one that had the most Japanese votes. Some people argued that they may have done the votes by region, thereby lumping all people who speak English together as 1 vote. Regardless of how the votes were tallied (or if they counted them at all), there was an outcry, which they chose to ignore. They could have just made something up like: "after looking at that pet we decided the other one was better" or even a simple "Balance.", But they chose to leave it up to interpretation, and most people interpreted it as a middle finger.



Well, no, not if you phrase the poll that way.

That is the problem here. The devs are in fact making that decision regardless of our input. Not because people haven't debated both sides of the coin. They are free to do so. The game obviously can't be a democracy, but if they are making decisions that fly in the face of logic, then people can and will be angry and voice it. When they use language like "in order to maintain balance" they are diluting the issue. The fact of the matter is that what they are actually doing is weakening 1 thing instead of making something else better. That is the opposite of progress.


True, but if they have a bigger plan of which these are a part, then yeah, they don't want to derail it until the whole thing is done. Of course, if I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, and feel free to call me out on it. My point is that I feel it's premature to call it at this point. Obviously you don't, and that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

Yeah, I would feel more optimistic if they gave responses that suggested something good in the works, but so far, they have said things like "working as intended" when people complain about things, and "not working as intended" when people are actually excited about things.

[Potyhoty]

It was in the beast master thread. They gave a choice of several new pets that they were thinking of adding. They had a couple that were already set in stone, and they offered the players a chance to vote for the last one. The one with the most votes was not added, and instead they put in the one that had the most Japanese votes. Some people argued that they may have done the votes by region, thereby lumping all people who speak English together as 1 vote. Regardless of how the votes were tallied (or if they counted them at all), there was an outcry, which they chose to ignore. They could have just made something up like: "after looking at that pet we decided the other one was better" or even a simple "Balance.", But they chose to leave it up to interpretation, and most people interpreted it as a middle finger.

Ouch. I stand corrected.


That is the problem here. The devs are in fact making that decision regardless of our input. Not because people haven't debated both sides of the coin. They are free to do so. The game obviously can't be a democracy, but if they are making decisions that fly in the face of logic, then people can and will be angry and voice it. When they use language like "in order to maintain balance" they are diluting the issue. The fact of the matter is that what they are actually doing is weakening 1 thing instead of making something else better. That is the opposite of progress.

As it stands now, yes. And yeah, I agree with you that what they are doing, on the face of it, is just a bad idea. And if past experience is anything to go by, SE probably doesn't have a master plan. I'm just hoping against hope, I guess. And like I said before, nothing wrong with being angry and faulting the logic they present. That part I agree with.

I'm just a scientist at heart, I guess. And although polls are easy to construct, polls that do what they look like they do (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/08/us/poll-on-doubt-of-holocaust-is-corrected.html) are actually incredibly difficult to construct. And 10 or 100 degrees in stats won't do you a lick of good if you don't have the actual data, which we don't. Things like confirmation bias and other things have led to bigger problems than bad MMO decisions, believe you me (http://videos.howstuffworks.com/ted-conferences/1818-peter-donnelly-on-statistical-mistakes-video.htm). So I get a little hot under the collar about it. Sorry about that.


Yeah, I would feel more optimistic if they gave responses that suggested something good in the works, but so far, they have said things like "working as intended" when people complain about things, and "not working as intended" when people are actually excited about things.

Completely agreed.

[FrankReynolds]

Sorry I'm such an argumentative tool btw. It's just that I'm in the middle of building a bunch of new workstations for the office, and this is how I entertain myself in between clicking yes on installation windows, updates and 1,000 reboots :P

[Potyhoty]

Sorry I'm such an argumentative tool btw. It's just that I'm in the middle of building a bunch of new workstations for the office, and this is how I entertain myself in between clicking yes on installation windows, updates and 1,000 reboots :P

Nah, you're fine by me. :D I want to tender you the same apology, I forgot to drink my morning coffee.

[Glacont]

The way things are now, I don't see SE Returning to the creativity and fun times of:
FF III / IV / IX / Tactics.

At least the week end is coming, and I'll be able to pick up some new games.

[Arcon]

[Personal criticism]

I've been told there's an ignore button somewhere on here. That might be the best option for dealing with me if my posts are disgusting to read for you. I already mentioned (in another thread, I believe), that I'm simply an eye-for-an-eye kinda guy. If someone is being respectful, I'll always be respectful back to them. If someone is being rude and disgusting, I have no problem with being rude and disgusting back to them. And while that won't win me a popularity contest on here it's worth my personal satisfaction for upsetting the target person while doing so. I won't change that way. If you have trouble with that, blacklist me or, if I go overboard with it, report me. I have no desire to show my respect to people who don't deserve it.


I say no because Abyssea was still huge just six months ago. Six months ago was late June. Abyssea was pretty huge even into September. I remember when I quit for college classes around October/November everyone was still doing Abyssea nonstop, with Voidwatch just starting to creep into the picture. When I came back in late November/early December, Voidwatch had become the new thing and Abyssea, while it's still being played in today, has lost its throne.

So no I'd say it mostly happened during the Abyssea era. The ???s were for Abyssea NMs, you know.

That's not an indication of anything. They can fix content way outside of its respective era. They recently adjusted kings and KS99, I'm sure you wouldn't call that "kings era" either, because it was pretty much dead already by then. But ok, it was Abyssea era. Let's leave it at that. Let's say September was also Abyssea era. That's going by your post of what was most popular back then, even though I'd personally disagree, since I feel like the "era" of Abyssea was largely over by March. After that people just had nowhere else to go for a while.

So if September was still Abyssea era, how can you complain about SE not listening anymore when you barely gave them one month to respond (and even ignoring the other examples I provided, that showed they still implemented player feedback this very update)? All those positive changes (that, supposedly, happened in the Abyssea era) took up to a year to implement. Now they can't get two months?

This is what I meant. I won't say the development team are saints. I'm not defending them. I know they're slow and they largely do what they want. But the facts indicate it's always been that way. Abyssea didn't improve them in any way in that regard. There's a slew of valid criticism about the development team, and saying they're slow and/or ignoring the playerbase is valid too. What is wrong is putting the blame on Tanaka (or anyone in particular, because no one has any clue what goes on at SE headquarters) and saying that he ruined playerbase communication when it used to be so great. That's just a weak argument.

[axlzero]

ukko ukko light dead that was most nms in abbysea if that didnt do it with sekki them retaliation and meditate up one more and dead before you can blink

p.s. sams can do 10k++ outside abysea and they didnt get nerfed. Tanaka i feel is racist to all other things not from japan they nerft monk cause h2h a.k.a. karate came from china and korea you are right it was lazy of them to nerf a few jobs and not fix the others. I wish tanaka would get lost and let the developement team do what they were doing they were going in the right direction before he came back. Rumor has it tanaka was told to get lost by the FFXIV team cause his ideahs where pissing everyone off

Tanaka here is some advice sometimes its best for a leader to step back and let his people do there work dont micromanage thats the mother of all failure

[Insaniac]

Karate came from Japan. Kung Fu and Taekwondo came from China and Korea respectively. /nerdface.

[Meyi]

[Response to personal criticism]

I'd rather not ignore you because I like reading what every member has to contribute, even if I disagree with it or find it ridiculous. You asked why people were attacking you and I explained to you why they do that. As long as you're aware of the potential attitude stirring people up in a frenzy to which they respond with bitterness, then you have the right to go forth. But as someone from the outside looking in I figured you at least deserved to know why.




That's not an indication of anything. They can fix content way outside of its respective era. They recently adjusted kings and KS99, I'm sure you wouldn't call that "kings era" either, because it was pretty much dead already by then. But ok, it was Abyssea era. Let's leave it at that. Let's say September was also Abyssea era. That's going by your post of what was most popular back then, even though I'd personally disagree, since I feel like the "era" of Abyssea was largely over by March. After that people just had nowhere else to go for a while.

So if September was still Abyssea era, how can you complain about SE not listening anymore when you barely gave them one month to respond (and even ignoring the other examples I provided, that showed they still implemented player feedback this very update)? All those positive changes (that, supposedly, happened in the Abyssea era) took up to a year to implement. Now they can't get two months?

I agree kings was out of kings era. I'm not judging eras by updated content but by player popularity. And are you sure it had peaked by March? The devastating tsunami hit mid March and servers were down.

I dunno, it seemed really popular all summer long on Bismarck. Perhaps different servers and different playstyles? I didn't collect most of my +2s until late August/early September, just a little before I took a couple month break. But maybe I'm one of the laggers who was playing catch up. To me it seems like Abyssea era lasted until at least the end of summer.

As for devs responding in a rational time I'm not angry at them. I think if they provided some kind of "Hey we heard you and we'll consider it!" note in suggested topics we'd feel more satisfied. There are many ways to prove that they are listening other than just inserting quick updates to fix problems.

One great way to show they're listening is to not implement things several official board members are voicing concerns against.

I agree that blaming one individual for the fall of a game is ridiculous... unless he actually is the source. I don't know enough about him or about the private matters of Square Enix. But I do know they are Japanese and knowing a bit about Japanese culture can make understanding their actions a lot easier.

[axlzero]

Karate came from Japan. Kung Fu and Taekwondo came from China and Korea respectively. /nerdface.

ty for the correction