Seriously, VW loot system..come on.

[Runespider]

It's been going on a long time now, the event itself is pretty good but the loot system.. everyone hates it (aside from a few lucky people), you keep adding new VWNM and it goes on and on and most of us can't even get rewarded for our mass investment of time from the old nms let alone do the new ones you just added.

FFXI has 2 things for most to do atm, Abyssea and VW..that's it. I understand that drops are wanted to be kept difficult to get to keep us doing the content but it's way too damn random and rare (the carrot is too far damn away from us)...I've killed hundreds of body NMs now and have nothing to show for it other than some crappy plates. I don't really need the gil anymore and the amount of plates needed is too high to want/bother to work on the unimpressive 95 emp.

I know in the interview they stated they don't want to change it and I know why but seriously can they reconsider this horrible system, can it be passed along that this is a huge issue for most everyone that does it? The reward is almost non-existent here, to encourage people to keep pecking away at it there has to be some reward or it's just useless slog on and on. You can let it go if there is other stuff to do but VW is the only show in town for most serious players now.

Is there ever going to be something done about the loot system? The urge to keep doing this event is quickly wearing off now, even a mouse needs to get a lump of cheese before it walks into a trap to kill itself.

A point system where you have to kill 50 of each NM to get the bodies, an increase for the drop rates...anything, something?

It's not a matter of not working for the things, some of us have killed them insane amounts of times and still have nothing to show for it.

[Sparthos]

Two words:

Point system.

[Raksha]

Yeah do something about vw loot seriously.

It's not just the bodies, I've been trying to get appetence crown from the morbol VWNM and after dozens of kills i have none and my LS leader and his 2box character both have 3 each. Need to fix this shit.

[Nala]

Seriously, what changed seemed like at the beginning when these forums opened what we said mattered, that the dev team legitimately wanted input on what direction to take the game.

Then they released the job adjustment manifesto, continuously came out with ignorant reasons as to why x adjustment would over power y job, and more so lately they just dont bother to respond because they know what we say will not change the fact its happening (by it i mean any issue of discussion on these lame excuse for feed back boards) and that we know they arent going to change it.

[Ravenmore]

Yeah do something about vw loot seriously.

It's not just the bodies, I've been trying to get appetence crown from the morbol VWNM and after dozens of kills i have none and my LS leader and his 2box character both have 3 each. Need to fix this shit.

This leave the drop rates the same but if the items keep going to the same people then no matter how high they are with out being 100% its still bs.

[Feliciaa]

Two words:

Point system.

I 100% agree with this post. A point system would open up soo many options and allow players to actually make progress instead of watching someone else drop an item for the 1000th time.

[Insaniac]

I was talking today with a friend about how they should add an effect that increases the drop rate of good items from any specific VWNM for every time you kill it. The suggested number was a .1% drop rate increase per kill that caps at 10%. So after 100 kills of any specific NM you would have a 1/10 chance of getting the item you are after. It still fits with the Tanaka style dice roll reward system but players could at least say they are making some sort of minimal progress even when they get logged. It would still be a massive grind but the chance of going 0/200 on anything would be very very low and the chance of some guy showing up and going 1/1 when you are 0/100 would be even lower.

I know a guy on my server who put together 200+ Qilins runs that never got a Coruscanti who was treated to watching someone who had no use for it go 1/1. There's no justification in the world to crush someones soul like that in a video game.

Also, I made this to illustrate how VW makes people feel.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/Myndbullets/Loginabox.jpg

[Arcon]

I was talking today with a friend about how they should add an effect that increases the drop rate of good items from any specific VWNM for every time you kill it. The suggested number was a .1% drop rate increase per kill that caps at 10%. So after 100 kills of any specific NM you would have a 1/10 chance of getting the item you are after. It still fits with the Tanaka style dice roll reward system but players could at least say they are making some sort of minimal progress even when they get logged. It would still be a massive grind but the chance of going 0/200 on anything would be very very low and the chance of some guy showing up and going 1/1 when you are 0/100 would be even lower.

This idea is quite good, I would love something like that. Preserve randomness, yet increase steady rewards through progress.

That's the thing that ticks most people off about randomness. If you remember, SE had a poll whether people wanted AF2+2 to be static augments or random augments. People were overwhelmingly for static augments, and for the exact same reason. People wanna see progress. They don't wanna be right where they were 50 tries ago, while someone else goes 1/1. They want progress, like with empyrean armor and weapons. They wanna know that, when they invest five hours of their lives, that they at least went somewhere. People don't like playing the lottery (well, some maybe, but definitely not as a fulltime job). Just give us something that tells us we're working towards a goal.

[Prothscar]

Guy in my LS has received two Coruscantis. Another has received 5 (6?) Mekira Meikogai. These situations should not be allowed to exist. If not allowing us to put loot into a common drop pool, at least have the game stick the item in someone else's chest instead, or make it impossible to have the same item drop if you already own one in one of your primary storage locations to avoid the rest of your group wanting to murder you.

[Runespider]

Guy in my LS has received two Coruscantis. Another has received 5 (6?) Mekira Meikogai. These situations should not be allowed to exist. If not allowing us to put loot into a common drop pool, at least have the game stick the item in someone else's chest instead, or make it impossible to have the same item drop if you already own one in one of your primary storage locations to avoid the rest of your group wanting to murder you.

At this point I'm so sick of checking the box after a long fight only to get garbage that I would be ok with them just making everything sellable. I'm just sick and tired of it.

Point system with large number of kills, increased drop % based on number of kills, increased drop rate, sellable...literally anything. Voidwatch is the only endgame event FFXI has outside of Aby and it's current loot system is the worst thing I've ever seen. The idea was good, the reality sucks.

[Vold]

This is why I don't waste a second of my time on voidwatch. I refuse to acknowledge it's existence and further motivating them to do crap like it. It's far worse than "old FFXI". Old FFXI blows this crap out of the water for drop rates.

Why the EFF can't we have a points system? Why did they abandon it? Worked like a bleeping charm in ToAU content. Oh but no, it's probably a better idea to have a random chest system that can reward one person with nothing but the best rewards and the next 17 people with mostly AH crap. If you want to take the decision out of our hands and push casual play that's fine but do it with a points system. This random chest business is not how you go about it. I don't care if the random drop rates were high. Why have we not learned that people prefer a guaranteed reward that requires work? Why do you think people broke their backs chasing relics and mythics? BECAUSE THEY HAD A GUARANTEED REWARD AT THE END OF THEIR SUFFERING.

But I'll tell you why there isn't a points system in VW. Because it'd probably be technically difficult to do with the nature of VW. The intent was never to give us a solid end game event system that'll stand the test of time. The intent was to throw us a bone to keep us busy for another year. VW is much like FoV or GoV. Something quick and easy to do for the devs. All I'll say now is they better fricking have something in the works. We better fricking be dealing with this crap for a reason. By the end of 2012 there better be something shiny waiting for us in the form of a new add on or expansion that isn't cheap shit and will make us wet our pants and beg our girlfriends and wives to let us out of sex so that we can play. We better get it or the atmosphere around these forums is going to feel like death come dec 2012.

[Camiie]

It's a bit hypocritical that they want the players to put so much time and effort into getting gear, but SE won't put time and effort into implementing points systems where they are sorely needed.

[Eri]

Voidwatch is the only endgame event FFXI has outside of Aby and it's current loot system is the worst thing I've ever seen.

Wait Abys is Endgame? Never Noticed.......

[Hashmalum]

Why the EFF can't we have a points system? Why did they abandon it? Worked like a bleeping charm in ToAU content.You know what else worked like a charm in ToAU content and was abandoned? True instancing (not the "three copies of each BCNM area floating in space next to each other" pseudo-instancing). I'm guessing that whoever was responsible for point systems and true instancing was either fired at some point (SE purged a bunch of people a while back) or recruited for the FFXIV team and never came back. Sad...

[Tamoa]

Getting late and I'm tired, just wanted to say I agree with everybody in this thread so far, and I'm going to quote my own post in another thread:


Isn't it more fair really, to grind towards a guaranteed result (with an ichor-like system) instead of grinding and quite possibly NEVER getting that specific drop you want? Wouldn't that be the best option of them all? No lootwhoring, no ninja-lotting, no possibility of selling ra/ex drop (if they were made to appear in a treasure pool), no ra/ex stuff going to mules/people that don't have the jobs leveled/lucky gimps who go 1/1, and noone would feel the need to grind their teeth in frustration that someone else got the same ra/ex body for the 5th time.

We'd have to grind. But we'd get what we want in the end.

[Kitkat]

Also, I made this to illustrate how VW makes people feel.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e166/Myndbullets/Loginabox.jpg

Shouldn't the box be on the other side since.....it's basically **** in a box?

I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but any type of loot system that doesn't have a check on a person to ensure they don't already have the item before propagating, and if they did would default to another person instead (or even have option to go into ally lot pool), is incredibly stupid. Every other NM I fought prior to Abyssea had this so that if everyone who fought the NM already had the item it wouldn't even drop....even if it was a 100% drop. Now we have the item dropping in multiple fights to the same person or a person who doesn't even want it (based on jobs they enjoy playing), but instead of the Devs meeting us halfway they say "No, this woks fine according to our projections and implementation, while supporting higher distribution to the population."

Um....no it doesn't. If 1-3 people are constantly getting the same drop over and over again, or drops they don't want, it isn't promoting higher distribution to the population, it is killing distribution to the population. "Oh look, my 3rd toci Harness. I guess SE is telling me I need to wear 3 at once....not that I can take the 2nd one out of the box anyway!"

As to why people say it is a bad system, this is a summary of the last 15 fights I've done with 17 other people:

Me: Anyone get anything good?
PersonA: No, just logs
PersonB: Whole bunch of shit
PersonC: (All right!) more ores I could have gotten off worms!


So yes....the loot system is absolutely horrible when lacking a check system or the ability to add to ally pool if you already got the item or don't want it in the first place.

[Runespider]

We'd have to grind. But we'd get what we want in the end.

This.

I don't really see it fair killing all the NM's, getting all the clears, all atmacites, getting all the needed WS/spells/merits to proc etc, all temps and becoming quite proficient at killing mobs killing them all many many times and after all that still not having a body or rare drop to reward as a trophy for it. Then walking around and seeing someone you were in a group with a day earlier that had no idea wtf they were doing, new to the event walking around in the piece you were after (and they probably won't even do the damn event again either). I can't think of any other MMO that would let players good at an event be so unappreciated in such a way, I'm not against lucky lottery drops like this but I am against hardcore players not getting the stuff after working hard for it. Keep the random loot system right now, just add on a points system.

We aren't asking for gear on a silver plate, just some thought into it from our side. Events need to reward the players or we just give up, people can't get the gear...not even 1-2 bits in some cases...if I kill Kaggen and Pil 50 times I damn well earned those bodies, but not according to this loot system.

They seem so scared of us getting the loot and not doing it anymore that they work as hard as possible to keep it from us, I understand there is very little endgame in the game right now and the fear of people capping and quitting is a big concern...but people are getting annoyed and quitting anyway so let us put the work in and feel rewarded and maybe we will be happier and do the new content/overhauls you add? VW right now is so damn annoying to me and many others that I'm not looking forward to new stuff added/overhauled cause I know they are gonna be the same 0/100++ drop rates to keep repeat play as high as possible, that's not a good mindset for players.

[Sparthos]

Voidwatch: The Solution~

Something like:
Dominion style Armor (w/random augments) - Low
Some useful Voidwatch KI - Low
Heavy Metal - Low
Dominion style Weapons (w/random augments) - Medium
Heavy Metal Pouch - Medium
Rare Gear 1 - High
Glowstick weapon 1 - Extremely High
Glowstick armor 1 - Extremely High
Mobs HQ drop - Extremely High
1 piece of ??? Badass set - Highest (<< here's where you squeeze out the grind)

[Prothscar]

Would agree that the chance of getting the drop on an actual kill in addition to accumulating points per kill that you may later spend on the armor if you don't get the drop in a certain amount of kills would be the best system for something like this.

[Xellith]

The truth is that SE do not want content that can be completed in a relatively acceptable period of time. They want content to drag out so they do not have to add more. If SE REALLY cared about what we say and want then they wouldnt have told the player base (which consisted of a vast amount of people in the threads complaining) "No you are wrong - we are right and this is how we are going to do it. You might think this is an issue but we do not" regarding this issue since it has been discussed numerous times. (paraphrased but yea its what was said)

[Reiterpallasch]

They should have just made the mobs drop items, with the box being a side reward, not the main form of it. I'd be more than happy to take a box-o-logs every run if I new my time was coming up next to lot the next body that drops.

[Arcon]

The truth is that SE do not want content that can be completed in a relatively acceptable period of time. They want content to drag out so they do not have to add more.

But that's the thing - VW can be completed in a very short time, if you're lucky and go 1/1 on everything. No one is even saying we don't wanna invest time, and considering how much everyone hates grinding, that's surprising coming from the playerbase. We just wanna see results from grinding. Even if it takes months of doing VW, people would still prefer it to now if they knew that after months they would definitely have their item.

[Amador]

This needs to happen. It's utter garbage.

Whoever that person was who was saying "Oh one person getting 99 items isn't fair" What? You can still trade the 99 logs to one person wtf is he talking about?

A type of "GIVE" system is required. It's redundant that it can't be that way. The requirement is already: Be in the alliance, use a void stone. Why not? People sell the crap items on the AH anyways, and or bring their mules so they can get items so they get rich quicker.

It's all the same story.

That people who want something/need something have to do a trial and error run of 150-200 runs to get ONE item they want is ridiculous. If you want people to support Heavy Metal Plate influx then go ahead and make it so that ALL T3 Drop pouches. Don't make it so that people have to see 1 Body after they see 200 plates.

Same for the old zones, those NM's have such horrible drop rate, it's ridiculous.

The player base doesn't care about worthless logs. If you want to craft go do HELM.

[Runespider]

At least they are looking into the drop rates, and the JP players hate it as much as we do.

Translation from the Directors post about the zam interview and some jp players annoyed at VW drop rates.


Inside of the interview the balance of Voidwatch was brought up. We are still reserving adjustments to the drop rates, and are weighing the pros and cons.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18909-

[wish12oz]

At least they are looking into the drop rates, and the JP players hate it as much as we do.

Translation from the Directors post about the zam interview and some jp players annoyed at VW drop rates.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18909-


To me, that sounds like a nice way of saying "we refuse to raise the drop rates, but we know everyone will rage if we don't, so we're saying this instead of no to give people false hope and not get raged at."

[casual]

It's quite obvious that the majority of the player base is appalled by the voidwatch loot system. It was a good idea that was implemented horribly in order to add longevity to the game. They could please so many people by just making a few simple changes.

[Registeel]

It's very sad getting drops you have no use for knowing others so desperately desire them. Did Voidwrought yesterday, a guy in the group really wanted Strendu Ring. He got (if I recall his count correctly) his FIFTH Fazheluo R. Mail, no ring. Meanwhile, on the last pop, I got said ring. I pretty much have no job that can utilize it efficiently. If I could I would've given it to him right then and there, but nah I guess Voidwatch discourages sharing and being able to be a good Samaritan.

Guess I have to level BLM now to drown the guilt.

[Runespider]

Drop rates seem higher on the newer NMs, as well as more worthwhile nq drops..so I guess they are taking it on board how bad they were on the first ones.

No changes to the old NMs though, so the issues is pretty much unchanged there.

[Malamasala]

Two words:

Point system.

You need more words.

Point system with choose your own augment armors

[Arcon]

You need more words.

Point system with choose your own augment armors

Three words:
Hell no thanks.

[Tagrineth]

Even with the "ease of use" of Voidwatch - half the people in the alliance are basically proc filler, costs them nothing to join the run unless they want to trade a few cells - it's SO hard to get people to actually go DO it, because the drop rates are so awful. :\

[Olor]

Three words:
Hell no thanks.

why not? I like the choose an augment concept - it allows you to make some niche armor that fills holes in your sets. I would love to see more of it. Most armor sucks for classes like PUP/SMN/BST because the devs make something that is sort of good for "most" jobs - and war/thf/sam etc don't need pet haste.

[FrankReynolds]

why not? I like the choose an augment concept - it allows you to make some niche armor that fills holes in your sets. I would love to see more of it. Most armor sucks for classes like PUP/SMN/BST because the devs make something that is sort of good for "most" jobs - and war/thf/sam etc don't need pet haste.

I'd be fine with it as long as I could pick / change the stats. If its more random shit or crafted, screw that.

[Creelo]

VW is really starting to get disheartening... and some of the new T6 VWNMs (especially Botulus Rex) are a bit... ridiculous in difficulty.

I would truly love to see a bunch of average, Joe shmoe players be able to take them down efficiently, or at all.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

VW is really starting to get disheartening... and some of the new T6 VWNMs (especially Botulus Rex) are a bit... ridiculous in difficulty.

I would truly love to see a bunch of average, Joe shmoe players be able to take them down efficiently, or at all.The only people I see wearing the new gear are all JP.

[Sparthos]

VW is really starting to get disheartening... and some of the new T6 VWNMs (especially Botulus Rex) are a bit... ridiculous in difficulty.

I would truly love to see a bunch of average, Joe shmoe players be able to take them down efficiently, or at all.

3 words:

Proc or die.

[Creelo]

3 words:

Proc or die.

Yup lol, pretty much

Also, hope your proc'ers don't suck or lie about having Temp Items. x.x

[Prothscar]

Having the monsters scale their difficulty, but also scale drop rates, based on the number of players engaging them, say from 6 to 18, would be a reasonable strategy to make Voidwatch more accessible while still making it profitable for a larger group to take part in the event. Obviously the drop rates would also have to be reconsidered as making them even lower than they are now for smaller groups would be preposterous, perhaps have a smaller group of 6~10 people have the drop rate that exists now while a larger group would benefit from enhanced drop rates. A larger group would also benefit from having more reliable procs.

This would serve to, again, make Voidwatch more accessible while still making it rewarding for larger groups, and it would also retain the difficulty of some of the T6 fights (which I personally enjoy).

I would also propose the addition of a token system, similar in fashion to the Trophy system added in Heroes of Abyssea. Tokens would be NM specific and could be traded in to an NPC for the items that the NM drops. Tokens per NM would also be based on group size to maintain the larger groups still being worthwhile. Only the higher tier NMs of their designated chapter and branch would drop these tokens.

Let's say...

Hahava - Intolerable Token
30 tokens - Ganesha's Mask
50 tokens - Ganesha's Mala
80 tokens - Mextli Harness

Voidwrought - Impenetrable Token
30 tokens - Strendu Ring
50 tokens - Strendu Mantle
80 tokens - Fazheluo Radiant Mail

Pil - Varna Token
30 tokens - Aliyat Chakram
50 tokens - Dilaram's Sollerets
80 tokens - Toci's harness

Kaggen - Mantoptera Token
30 tokens - Mantis Eye
50 tokens - Phasmida belt
80 tokens - Mekira Meikogai

Qilin - Zodiac Token
30 tokens - Houyi's Gorget
50 tokens - Fajin Boots
50 tokens - Lux Pugio
100 tokens - Coruscanti

Etc.

Could also add an option on the NPC that allows you to trade certain tokens for certain Magian Trial items so that, after someone already has the drops that they desire from each NM, they still have a reason to repeat the fights.

For example:
5 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Riftsand
10 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Plate
80 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Pouch

10 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Plate
50 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Riftdross
50 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Riftcinder

1 token per fight for a group of 6~11
2 tokens per fight for a group of 12~17
3 tokens per fight for a group of 18

This would still mean that content is repeated several times, but it will also mean that you are eventually guaranteed the drop that you're after. This sort of system would not shorten the lifespan of this content for most people, quelling any concerns that the Developement Team may have toward that topic, however it would allow peace of mind in that after a certain number of successful fights, you are guaranteed to be rewarded.

[Runespider]

If they are going to do anything about this they are going to wait a few more months, as stated in the last interview they prefer to punish us for a while first before taming it back. So they will let the hardcore players kill themselves over these VW drop rates going 1/200-300 and then add something to make them easier after we work our asses off on them. Teh thing they add that will make them easier will be the easiest so no point system or anything and just a straight drop rate increase.

I'm getting really sick of the only endgame content the game has being so unrewarding. I keep doing VW but I get more and more sick of it every time I get crap in the box.



I would truly love to see a bunch of average, Joe shmoe players be able to take them down efficiently, or at all.

Won't happen for around 5-6 months, they will nerf them back at that point I guess. Right now they are mostly zerg and proc often or they will wipe you fights (regardless of -dmg gear). there isn't much of a strat with them which is kinda dissapointing, it's just proc proc proc proc proc. They are impossible without proc/temps lol

The jp players do so well because they communicate more and proc better, that's why they are so successfull at VW with far less elite geared players.

[Zirael]

Having the monsters scale their difficulty, but also scale drop rates, based on the number of players engaging them, say from 6 to 18, would be a reasonable strategy to make Voidwatch more accessible while still making it profitable for a larger group to take part in the event. Obviously the drop rates would also have to be reconsidered as making them even lower than they are now for smaller groups would be preposterous, perhaps have a smaller group of 6~10 people have the drop rate that exists now while a larger group would benefit from enhanced drop rates. A larger group would also benefit from having more reliable procs.

This would serve to, again, make Voidwatch more accessible while still making it rewarding for larger groups, and it would also retain the difficulty of some of the T6 fights (which I personally enjoy).

I would also propose the addition of a token system, similar in fashion to the Trophy system added in Heroes of Abyssea. Tokens would be NM specific and could be traded in to an NPC for the items that the NM drops. Tokens per NM would also be based on group size to maintain the larger groups still being worthwhile. Only the higher tier NMs of their designated chapter and branch would drop these tokens.

Let's say...

Hahava - Intolerable Token
30 tokens - Ganesha's Mask
50 tokens - Ganesha's Mala
80 tokens - Mextli Harness

Voidwrought - Impenetrable Token
30 tokens - Strendu Ring
50 tokens - Strendu Mantle
80 tokens - Fazheluo Radiant Mail

Pil - Varna Token
30 tokens - Aliyat Chakram
50 tokens - Dilaram's Sollerets
80 tokens - Toci's harness

Kaggen - Mantoptera Token
30 tokens - Mantis Eye
50 tokens - Phasmida belt
80 tokens - Mekira Meikogai

Qilin - Zodiac Token
30 tokens - Houyi's Gorget
50 tokens - Fajin Boots
50 tokens - Lux Pugio
100 tokens - Coruscanti

Etc.

Could also add an option on the NPC that allows you to trade certain tokens for certain Magian Trial items so that, after someone already has the drops that they desire from each NM, they still have a reason to repeat the fights.

For example:
5 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Riftsand
10 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Plate
80 Akvan, Kaggen, Pil, Qilin, Aello, or Uptala tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Pouch

10 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Heavy Metal Plate
50 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Riftdross
50 Gaunab, Ocythoe, Kalasutrax, Ig-Alima, or Botulus Rex tokens - 1 Riftcinder

1 token per fight for a group of 6~11
2 tokens per fight for a group of 12~17
3 tokens per fight for a group of 18

This would still mean that content is repeated several times, but it will also mean that you are eventually guaranteed the drop that you're after. This sort of system would not shorten the lifespan of this content for most people, quelling any concerns that the Developement Team may have toward that topic, however it would allow peace of mind in that after a certain number of successful fights, you are guaranteed to be rewarded.
It's been done in FF14 recently for Prime Avatar fights there, which have similar loot distribution system to this game's VW, but as the Devs have reminded us recently, FF11 is not FF14. Your idea has been adapted in quite few games, because it makes sense, but as per recent interview, Devs regret making Abyssea-style fun rewarding content, so I don't see your idea implemented anytime this decade, sadly.

[saevel]

3 words:

Proc or die.

And yet there are people screaming for SE to nerf VWNM temp items and stuff because they think it's cheating and making them "too easy".

[Runespider]

And yet there are people screaming for SE to nerf VWNM temp items and stuff because they think it's cheating and making them "too easy".

The new ones are impossible without temps, they don't make them easier they are made with them in mind.

[Originalkord]

It just hit a new low for me...

An afk pink THF who died at the start of a Kaggen fight, and stayed dead for the duration, was rewarded with a shiny new body...

Yep.

[Sparthos]

Point system breakdown

It's the only hope for this sad excuse of a system.

[Neofire]

Yea the VW drop rate's are utter garbage, i've done about 138 fights and ive gotten 2 pieces of gear, Mantis Eye and Ganesha's Mask....

[Theytak]

Realistically, the problem isn't the drop rates at all. You guys need to stop saying the drop rates are the issue, while at the same time talking about how common it is to have one person get 4-5 of the same thing.

The issue is the drop distribution. And the distribution is what SE claims is awesome, and allows you to earn FIVE TIMES AS MUCH LOOT. Obviously, that's a complete crock, because the devs have no idea what the players consider "loot".

the devs look at the loot pool and see: a couple of awesome, rare pieces of armor, weapons, or magian trial items, crafting resources that give good, but not as awesome as the actual armor, crafted armor versions of the NM drops, and awesome, rare crafting resources like high level logs and ores.

What they forget is:

1: Players have NEVER wanted or hoped to get rare crafting materials like logs and ores from difficult nms. They have always been the "junk drop" that end up getting thrown away or sold to vendors for pocket change.

2: They killed crafting when they introduced synergy, so the number of crafters who actually benefit from being able to procure rare, high level source materials is rather low, because the number of high level crafters who actually profit at all from their craft, let alone profit against the initial investment required to use those high level logs/ores, is miserably close to none of them. Except for cooks and dragon meat recipes, high level crafters pretty much have to get lucky, or level a completely different craft (synergy) to turn a profit.

3: By forcing the entirety of the random loot pool to be divide up into individual rewards that can't be traded around, it completely negates the backwards logic that we could possibly leave VW with five times the reward of previous NM systems. They intended for this system to prevent 1 person from getting the entire pool, but in reality, this system makes 1 person getting the entire pool (in terms of reward value) the only common result, and eliminates the players' ability to at least assure the one person who gets the reward can actually benefit from it.

No matter how awful drop rates were in the past, at least the players had some control over who got what when something did drop, VW eliminates that one saving grace of a low drop rate system.

It feels like their intention was either to create a system that prevented ninja lotting (if you want to believe they were trying to be benevolent), or more likely, to create a system that prevented the players from being able to use DKP type systems to determine who gets rewarded, because people who didn't have the time to devote to a group constantly whined about "The horrible HNMLS leaders who always played favorites always". It seems like their thought process was "This is more fair than letting those awful, greedy players try and divide loot like civil adults, because a few random people are greedier than normal"

Basically, the devs have absolutely no idea what types of systems players use to determine fairness of drop distribution, and just assumed that "We're the devs, we know best" when they obviously don't know what they're doing, at all, and have continued to prove the fact that they have no idea what they're doing every update since abyssea.

[Concerned4FFxi]

I suggested a point system where rare/ex gear cant be bought, but the synths for the ah gear, the hmp, the mirrors and such, can be bought with points. This gives meaning to all those runs when your getting nothing but logs because logs are nothing, at least your building towards something.

All rare/ex gear from your chest can be declined and converted into points. This gives meaning to your fifth and sixth duplicate rare/ex.


Do the same thing for WOE, points for coins. Add some great rare/ex gear that cant be bought with points but reward points for steady progress towards a linear goal. Make WOE not a pet job only, dd auto-rr garbage thats no fun.

[Runespider]

Really the problem is that there is just nothing else to do, VW is the only thing to do that you can class as proper endgame now. It's the only endgame event, there isn't very much of it and the rewards are almost nil (random is horse crap too, totally fair someone goes 1/1 and others go 0/200 right?..that's worse than the grind itself. The fights were fun at first but they are boring as shit now due to constant repetition of the same 3 over and over, Jeuno T3 NMs can kiss my ass.

You hate it, you say you won't do it anymore cause it's stupid but there is nothing else to damn well do. So you force yourself to carry on doing it and it makes you more and more annoyed with FFXI. It really is annoying enough to make people quit atm, it's just that bad.

Seriously stop messing around and fix this drop system, it's making people quit or get really fed up. Fix this with the next update please, it's totally stupid now.

[Concerned4FFxi]

I feel there's an internal memo from the dev to the moogle readers here that, at this point, do not repost anything about the vw loot system from the player base, all decisions have been made and are final. Sold as is, no refunds.

[Koren]

The general consensus among the player base is for a change to a point system rather than random drops. But which kind of point system are we aiming for and which would be best to reward players participating and promote longevity of the event? Additionally, should there be random drops of the items we are working to purchase with points, possibly with a reduced droprate? There are several systems for points we can put in place.

1. Global Point System - This is probably the system most are imagining when we say point system. You kill something, you obtain points and trade a set amount for an item, very similar to slaughtering things for gil drops. Lower tiers of NMs would have to be worth significantly less than higher tiers. Otherwise, we'll just happily steamroll the tier 1 NMs for 100 points vs taking time and risk against tier 4 NMs for 130 points. If a body is worth 10k points and the tiers go 1>10>100>1000, 10 tier 4 NMs would get us a body, but if you can't kill the tier 4, you can make do with more of the tier 3 or, heaven forbid, tier 2 or 1.

There are a lot of pros associated with this. If while working on one of your melee pieces and partway through something better is released or the RNG blinks and works in your favor giving you your precious, your points are still able to be used for other items, possibly that nice nuking piece you sort of liked but not as much as precious. This system we know works, it's simple, straightforward and easily tracks progress to what you want. Except for the speed of acquisition this is pretty much perfect from a player perspective.

Developer perspective is somewhat less perfect. If players spend any decent amount of time with this system, they will accumulate points, and probably a lot of points, similarly to how many of us have more Cruor and Dominion Points than we know what to do with. And we all know we would, some of us would need less items than others so would not spend their points, but still come to the event to help others in their group, and of course, a few new people will join, prolonging the event's life a little more, but eventually it will die down as people get what they need and move on to do other things. Generally a designer would want to then release VW Tavnazia or some new shinies for people to want, or both. A lot of people will already have a pool in which to buy the new items and skip the new branch of the event, or do it once or twice for something to kill time. These global point systems have the potential to kill later expansions leaving it dead content.

So are there other possible point systems we can look to? Probably not ones we would be as happy with, but we can try.

2. Magian Trial Point System - Probably could call it a Credit System with how people would react to it, but trying to brainstorm different point systems. This is based per NM. You want Mextli Harness you need to be killing Hahava. Pick an item you want to work towards at the Rift and as you kill it the points fill up. Just as an example Body is 0/20, get 1 point for killing, 1 point for max red light and 1 point for max blue light, so each round is potentially 3/20. Kill 7 times with maxed red and blue light would put you at 21/20 and the Body spawns in your chest. Any additional points above 20 are lost, they do not roll over to the next item you want starting you at 1/20, otherwise we're back to the Global Point System again. Same if you decide you no longer want the item and it's at 18/20 and you want something else, you lose all progress and start at 0/20 on that item 2. If you choose to go back to item 1 it's at 0/20 again. If you forget to pick an item before fighting, any points you would have gained would have been lost. You can pick different items for different NMs without losing progress. Example: Mextli Harness is at 18/20 and your group decided to leave and fight Voidwrought for a bit. You can work on Fazheluo Radiant Mail without losing your progress on Mextli Harness since they are from different NMs. On reflection maybe can halve the accumulated points each time you change items instead so being at 10/20 and then changing makes the new item 5/20.

From a player perspective this would probably be the least liked point system. For one, it is a very wasteful system, any excess points you get are lost. I guess it could be adjusted so if you are at 19/20 and get 3 points during the next battle the additional 2 could roll over to the next item but no additional points would be gained until a new item is picked so you can't do 2 more 3 point battles and start at 8/20 on the next item. If you decide to change your mind what to get partway through, or noticed you picked the wrong thing and need to change your pick, you lose all your progress. If there is nothing you particularly want and don't pick something to work towards, you obtain literally nothing. Second, it puts the responsibility onto the players to work towards their rewards. Not entirely a bad thing, but like there are players who cannot for the life of them remember to bring a RR item, there will be players who will go for the entire event and forget to pick something to work towards.

From a developer's standpoint, this probably works out best. If they add something new, players have to play the content to obtain the new stuff, at least several times over. It can be released at any time from tomorrow to next year without players having a head start on it. They can add a new item to existing NMs or add entirely new NMs paths and players would need to play the content. They probably should add in a bunch of new items to each NM though that players would see as worthwhile. Most VW NMs have like 1-2 items worth getting excluding the 1500 HMP players need to WoE weapons.

3. Group Point System - Similar to the Global Point System except the points can only be used within the same path: Windurst, Jeuno, San d'Oria, or Bastok. Points gained fighting Windurst NMs would only be used towards items along the Windurst path. If you want something along the Bastok path you would need to fight Bastok NMs. It would need large jumps between tiers to prevent players from spamming lower tier NMs for easy points, similar to the Global System. It could be made so that you can use points from one group like Windurst to pay for items from Jeuno for an increased cost as well to prevent total losses in point use.

It's less ideal for players. While they can still work towards a wanted item it would be specific only to that path, however there is no loss in points, outside of "there's nothing more I want from here," but if higher tiers are unlocked or new items introduced in the path the points would be there to be used.

It is more ideal for developers. New paths mean new content for players to play that would not be affected by the player's current standing in previous areas.

4. Tiered Point System - Same as Group Point System except by tier with about the same result. Probably slightly more liked by the players than with the Group System since a lot of the good stuff is from higher tiers. The points for various items and the points gained would probably be pretty equal in each tier since fighting 30 tier 1 have no effect on tier 4 items. The same method of spending more points for items of a different tier could be utilized as well.

5. NM Specific Point System - Each NM has its own points to be used for its own items. It's basically the same as the Magian Trial Point System without the restrictions. If you didn't like Magian System you probably don't like this one, so it's like a choice between getting shot in the foot or stabbed in the foot, not enough difference to really care. If there were more items per NM, it wouldn't be quite so bad. Perhaps like with the Tiered and Group Point Systems an extra cost of outside items could be allowed.

To be honest, Global Points would probably have the highest point value per item of any point systems we come up with. The more restrictions we have in place the lower the cost for items should be. Also, random drops should remain for systems 1, 3, 4 and 5. System 2 is the only one I could see the removal of random drops being reasonable and that one the points should be the lowest of all 5 systems.

So do we as the players see only System 1 as the only logical path to take, or do Systems 2-5 have any merit? Can we come up with anything better than what is written here?

[Concerned4FFxi]

Yea the VW drop rate's are utter garbage, i've done about 138 fights and ive gotten 2 pieces of gear, Mantis Eye and Ganesha's Mask....

lol, i got this mask too. i thought monk might get some use at first, but its on my mule somewhere and doesnt see the light of day.

Also, why cant i trade rare/ex junk like this mask to the new daily reward system's chest instead of muling or tossing it? That reward system is junk too, i got more logs from it. I swear SE is hates the rainforests.

Is it because they didnt want to code all the items in the game with a point value for it to be traded? If so, what was the point of a daily reward system in the first place if you can't trade rare/ex?

[Concerned4FFxi]

If they wanted to have all items purchasable via points, then the drops would have to be associated like they did assualts, you can purchase any gear with your vw1 points (cities), your vw2 points (jueno t1-3, zm vnm), and vw3 (jueno t4-6? is it six or five, idk im stuck on t2 jueno, cn shadowreign). i feel dividing points like this would keep people helping others do the stuff that they already cleared but newer people need still, in order to get points towards a certain regional vwnm drop they wanted. Otherwise, all the veteran vw people wont go back and do cities, etc, they'll just spam whats good for them.

[macross]

Mask is great for monk, why don't you use it? And I call BS on 138 fights and 2 drops. Or maybe you don't trade cells or don't cap lights?

[Concerned4FFxi]

Honestly, i dont use the mask because i havent finished bb yet, still 1/3 on that. So, I suppose I can consider it for my ws set though, thanks i'll look into it .


On a sidenote, I've done about 50+ vwnm and all i got is the mask, I dont always trade cells, but I do in areas where the drops are good and all I got is the mask.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I stopped counting but the only exclusive drops I've seen in my entire fights is mantis eye/houyi's gorget/Aliyat Chakram, that's trading cells and usually capping lights on most nms with worthwhile drops. Meanwhile my friend gets 3 r/e bodies in 24 hours and the Sam in my group drops his 11th strendu ring because he can only carry one. Loot distribution in VW is retarded.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Yea i have a friend who is very lucky too, he seems to get body's alot and he doesn't do vw as much as I do, he now seems to be disappointed if a body doesnt drop where as I'm like so not disappointed because I never expect anything to drop lol.

[saevel]

Mask is great for monk, why don't you use it? And I call BS on 138 fights and 2 drops. Or maybe you don't trade cells or don't cap lights?

Calling BS on your BS.

Yes the rates really are that bad, less then 0.5% for a body even at capped lights.

And treasure rates are not calculated for the entire alliance, their calculated on an per-individual basis. Basically each person has their own loot pool calculated separate from everyone else. I personally know two people who are 0/200+ on Pil, their constantly spamming shouts and killing him. Recently they just said "fck it" and moved on.

[Runespider]

And I call BS on 138 fights and 2 drops. Or maybe you don't trade cells or don't cap lights?

This comment annoys me, I and some friends do at least 8 VW runs a day on the 2-3 NMs we want the body from. Every day (nothing else to do on FFXI aside from VW and I'm not moving from these to the otehr NMs till I get them, or get sdo pissed off I give up on VW competley). That alone is 56 kills per week and we've been doing VW since a few weeks after it was added, last couple of months have been spamming t3 only. I know lots of people that I do these same 2 NMs again and again, use cells, lights almost always capped (always capped since update...big difference white makes lol...not).

I see the same group of people doing them over and over and then new people join go 1/1 or 1/5 or 1/10 (and say finally...). It's completely retarded.

As I said before it's not the horrible grind that kills everyone the most, it's the fact some people get them almost instantly and others take forever or will literally never get them at all lol Wtf is that really, what kind of stupid reward system is it that does not reward you for doing the event successfully to this amount? Random to this degree is completely crap.

This event doesn't reward effort it rewards being able to throw a dice and make it balance on a corner. These devs need to gtfo with their love affair with random number generators, when I played other MMOs you could work out which gears you needed, organise events around it and get your gear within a decent amount of time. In FFXI you work out the gear you aren't going to ever get and waste your time doing content that your bored to death with chasing the carrot that's painted on the wall. The whole idea of Square endgame is not letting you get the drop and to put as many obstacles in your way to it as possible, instead of making new content to use this gear in they make it all about the gear and making it unobtainable.

[Tamoa]

Basically it's all about as random as it can get. I just went 1/1 on Ogier's Surcoat (body from Ig-Alima), a friend of mine finally got the body from Kaggen after more than 200 fights. 2 drops in 138 fights? I believe that np.

[Benihana]

They already said they are not changing this.

Why keep making threads?

[Prothscar]

They already said they are not changing this.

Why keep making threads?

http://bluegartr.com/stop-posting.gif

[Benihana]

http://bluegartr.com/stop-posting.gif

I could care less tbh. I just do my voidwatches, I enjoy the fights and even tho the drop rates are annoying, the head cases at SE have said numerous times they will not change this.

On both the forums and a magazine interviews. Does it make sense? No but it's SE

I just dont see them making this events drop any better, if they made them point system, it would take the luck factor out. SE loves for ppl to slave over events so they keep playing.

To expect them to make one of the games end events convenient, i think that's unreasonable.

This is SE afterall.

SE's definition of endgame and endgame gear is to make it as random and difficult to obtain as possible. To them, they think it keeps us playing longer and more invested into it.

[Prothscar]

If you don't care then do us all a favor and go away. No one wants your opinion.

[Runespider]

I could care less tbh. I just do my voidwatches, I enjoy the fights and even tho the drop rates are annoying, the head cases at SE have said numerous times they will not change this.

Yeah I enjoyed killing Kaggen, Akvan and Pil the first 20-30 times, after a few hundred of each, not so much. Considering there isn't much else to do apart from these and the t6 it really starts to grind badly after a while.

They probably will change the drop rates (as stated in the interview they like to make content horrible at the start and tone them back in a few months). I do agree though this forum is akin to pissing in the wind and is completely pointless.

[Tamoa]

I still enjoy the fights as long as I do them with my ls - well, tbh it's more a matter of enjoying doing stuff with my ls friends than anything else.

As for it being like pissing in the wind to make threads like this, as much as I'm inclined to agree I'm also of the opinion that if we don't voice our discontent then it's sure not to be changed. This forum is about giving SE feedback, right? That's what we are doing, every single one of us that's unhappy about voidwatch reward system and posting about it here.

[Sparthos]

I still enjoy the fights as long as I do them with my ls - well, tbh it's more a matter of enjoying doing stuff with my ls friends than anything else.

As for it being like pissing in the wind to make threads like this, as much as I'm inclined to agree I'm also of the opinion that if we don't voice our discontent then it's sure not to be changed. This forum is about giving SE feedback, right? That's what we are doing, every single one of us that's unhappy about voidwatch reward system and posting about it here.

The only thing these boards serve to do is foster an illusion of talking to the devs about what 'we' feel is wrong with the game. Previously you'd have that feedback section on ZAM, interviews and certain BG threads / attempts at communication that would almost always certainly be fail. When it wasn't excuses about balance, communication barriers or needing time to consider the ideas, you'd get silence followed by a continuation of the status quo.

Even Sage Sundi tried to communicate to the devs about issues with the game yet they wouldn't even listen to an employee fluent in their language.

The only language SE speaks is revenue loss.

[Tamoa]

I just have this tiny little sliver of hope that if we continue to let SE know when we are seriously unhappy about something, then maybe MAYBE it'll be changed eventually. Maybe. But yeah, most likely nothing will happen. But nothing will certainly happen if we don't let them know.

[Benihana]

I just have this tiny little sliver of hope that if we continue to let SE know when we are seriously unhappy about something, then maybe MAYBE it'll be changed eventually. Maybe. But yeah, most likely nothing will happen. But nothing will certainly happen if we don't let them know.

I guess it slipped your mind that people will always be unhappy tbh. Unless they do a point system, which they absolutely will not do.. people are gonna complain. Even if they allow you to put ur loot in the treasure pool, they will likely make up for this and make the drops even MORE rare, to which people will bitch and moan to no ends.

Is this system perfect? No, but its better than salvage drop rates and it going to ls members th leader favors.

I'm not sure what you're suggesting SE do, but this system is as "fair" as it can be.

The only real thing they need to remedy without unbalancing it, is make the drops much more common.

I wouldn't mind if they made it possible to pool your loot, but if theyre gonna make it even more rare, which they usually do have some counter measure they implement when making stuff more convenient and accessible, i would think people would be just as outraged.

The same person getting the same drop over and over would be irrelevant if the drop was common enough it wouldn't be such a kick in the knee.

increase he drop rates tbh

[Neisan_Quetz]

So much better than salvage, I can watch the same people drop the same r/e 3+ times rather than the overflow going to someone who can actually use it.

Make it even more rare? What more could they do, halve it from below 1% to... below 1%...?

[Benihana]

So much better than salvage, I can watch the same people drop the same r/e 3+ times rather than the overflow going to someone who can actually use it.

Make it even more rare? What more could they do, halve it from below 1% to... below 1%...?

It's not the same thing. Each person has their own individual loot pool. Thats different than an entire ally sharing 1 pool.

1% DROP rate per person in a 12-18 man ally (JUST SAYIN') is different than 1% drop rate for the entire alliance.
I'd much rather have my chance to obtain it, than it be a more traditional method. You have a better chance to obtain it this way as opposed to the drops being "kill-and-be pool'd" method via the normal game world.

The idea of being able to add youre loot to treasure pool is likely something that would be a problem for them because of how the game is coded. I don't think there is a method to "add loot to party treasure pool" in any part of the game, but i could be wrong. Such an idea is probably something they cannot do. Even if they could, I think SE likes endgame to be as tedious and inconvenient as possible, something like this would disturb the balance of how SE wants these gears to be obtained.

This is the same reason they wont let us have a point system, which would be cool. Most of the elite endgame gear in all the history of xi was obtained outside point systems for a reason. They WANT US to play as LONG as possible and be invested in the process as heavily as possible w.o it interfering with our irl. I'm confident when I say they will not add a point system, no matter how many ppl quit over it.

If they are going to make gear more accessible or convenient in ENDGAME, they "balance it" by adding something else that would be just as convenient. If we want drops to go to a more traditional kill and be pool'd manner, we can expect drop rates to be even worse, or some other limitation will be placed on us. This is just a guess, but we should be careful what we ask for tbh.

People complained about kings for years and OH GEE LOOK! They got what they asked for. Now you don't have to wait 24hrs^^. Walk of echos is another example and they tried it with dynamis coins, but it's actually easier to farm relics now.

Just keep in mind, if they do change it, you will most likely be unhappy when it comes with another extreme inconvenience.

My idea is this, if it can't be a point system or a huge increase in drop rate, without something else very annoying being implimented, ill take what we have now.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Uh, Abyssea, add treasure to pool...?

[Benihana]

Can you imagine the outrage if they made voidwatch NMs world 24-120hr free nms? even with a 50-100% drop rates, it would be the apoclypse of xi.

I think tanakas mind works like this:
OK, if you wont compete for it, you will work LONG HOURs in game to obtain it. Either via quests or annoying drop rates and limitations on entry time. This way you can make small steps towards obtaining it without other interferring with your progress. Although keep in mind of the limitations

OR

FREE FOR ALL! GET OUT'CHO BOTS Y'ALL, get READY FOR SOME HUGE DRAMA! GET UP AT 3AM. Ur job? Ur kids? Ur spouse? AWWW bless your heart (aka bitch, please), 24-120hr POP HNM sup, oh but heres a 25-100% drop rate! ENJOY!

everything from gaiters, to ixion gear, to abjys was very high drop rate or 100%(at least of one single abjys) off the respected NM. Only long spawn hnm that had very low drop rate on anything was lolkhimiara. Sure, ridill and dring were rare themselves, but the majority of the actual drops from the nms weren't so rare. The monsters themselves were rare.

point is, SE likes gear to enter the server and be obtained by players at a certain rate. That's very obvious, especially in endgame. Whether you get it from a horribly rare mob you can only fight once a week with a high drop rate, or spamming an event an nm several times a day, for the BEST gear, SE likes you to put forth the same amount of effort for it. That is whether it is convenient for your time or not.


Uh, Abyssea, add treasure to pool...?
Hey I did say I wasn't sure, yeah that slipped my mind, but still, it doesn't really change my point as that is still different than every person from the ally getting a box EACH. It's about the how often SE wants these gears entering the server or being obtained. They want them to be rare and 1 box per ally is much different than 1 box per person, in an ally.

They could implement it so the same person cant get the same gear in their chest again if they already have it in inventory, and instead someone else who doesnt have it it will get it. This is less about what's fair and more about keep their precious endgame gears rare.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There is nothing even close to "same amount of effort" with the current system.

[Benihana]

There is nothing even close to "same amount of effort" with the current system.

SE wants you, me and every person to work hard, long hours, OR do the same event/nm over, over, over over over over over x100-200 times for their precious elite endgame gear. This is good business for them, because inspite of some quitting because of it, MUCH more people continue to play because of it.

[Tamoa]

There is nothing even close to "same amount of effort" with the current system.

This.

I can understand why some people think the current system is better than drops going to treasure pool, if they have been a part of the kind of ls where leader(s) got everything and favouritism was the common thing. Although why anyone would chose to stay in a ls like that is beyond me, but that's a different topic really.

However, the current system is very far from being "good" or fair. Frost worded it very accurately in the "Eleven Faijin Boots"-thread:



So in reality, your new system is not actually helping and is actually just a complete annoyance. In fact it's breeding ill will and confusion on multiple fronts:

People trying to make sense of this idiocy are trying to see patterns that don't exist.
People are getting mad they don't get rewarded.
People getting mad because new people ARE getting rewarded.
People are getting mad because they can't share their good fortune.
People are getting mad at people for getting good fortune.
People can't enjoy their rewards because their friends still get nothing.
People are mad because they're trapped doing these events for the people that can't seem to get a break!

While increasing drop rates might make things a little better, it still doesn't solve the most annoying things about voidwatch:

1. Ra/ex drops going to someone who can't equip and/or never wanted the drop.
2. Same ra/ex item dropping to the same person multiple times.
3. Someone being lucky in a shout group and going 1/1 on the ra/ex item v/s someone who has done 200+ fights and still doesn't have the item. Cue Neisan's post quoted at the top here: "There is nothing even close to "same amount of effort" with the current system".

Personally, the low drop rates doesn't bother me as much as #1 and #2. And all of this together is why I'm in favour of an Einherjar-like ichor system in voidwatch.

[Benihana]

Don't get mad at me, I'm not trying to rain on anyone parade. I'm just trying to give people a realistic idea of what to expect for the future.

Tanaka's balance seems to be misunderstood. If you've played consistently since launch, it's very obvious how they like endgame to be.

Where we get more accessibility, the reward payoff is usually more uncommon. AKA rarer drops. See old dynamis, limbus, salvage,nyzul,einherjar the list goes on. Even for events such as some stated above, that didn't seem that rare, were actually more rare than we would think most likely.

Where we got less accessability, we get more common drop rates. This has been usually the case. It only didn't seem that way because the MOBS were uncommon. Salvage bees, HNMs, longer spawn lotto NMs typically had a more higher drop rate on treasure.

Now am I saying some items just simply aren't more rare than others? Course not. Dring, Thf knife, ridill, rabbit charm, mistilteinn, astralsigna, were EXTREMLY UNCOMMON, but these items were in the minority. Most long spawn NMs had a higher drop rate than 1-2lottos and mobs like that.

This is Tanakas balance. It is the equivalence of how often gear enters the server. This is how SE has run FFXIs endgame since the dawn of time. The exception is during abyssea, which was never endgame but a transition period.

If they do change how voidwatch gear is distributed, it will be balanced in such a way that still keeps it just as uncommon per person/ally, etc.

It's my understanding the thing people are complaining about most, is that the same person keeps getting the same gear over and over, when they already have it correct? The only thing they could do to make it so the item will no longer load in a persons treasure chest IF THEY ALREADY have it. If they did that, people couldn't complain anymore about the same people getting it over and over. Then what?

They would simply complain about the rarity, in which SE will likely do nothing or place another limitation on players. They increased salvage drop rate, the thing is, you can only enter salvage once a day. (unless that's changed, I havent done salvage since abyssea was released. so idk)

Now if they increased drop rates, and placed a limitation in how often you could do.. say.. 1 fights per nm a day, would people be happy? TBH, I think that would be better, but people would still give SE hell over it.

Let's keep it real, what people really want is for SE to abolish their views of accessibility VS reward ratio.

Don't count on that, cause it's actually one of the things that's kept the game ALIVE. This game is old and unless their willing to put a full fledged team on this and give us new expansions or rewrite the game etc, they wanna spend as little time and effort on it as possible. If they take out grinding in endgame, WITHOUT continuously feeding us new areas, mods, events and expansions, the game WILL get very boring and stale.

An endgame without some grind is a stale one imo, unless they keep updating the game with meaty content.. which only happens 1-2 times a year atm.

I'm not white knighting for SE, but I understand why they do the things they do and I can see tanakas balance and how it plays in the life (and death) of xi.

I'm all for them making endgame about the reward and accessibility ratio of abyssea, HOWEVER, only if in the case they are constantly updating the game with MEATY content. It got so BORING waiting for the next updates during the abyssea phase. Oh, it's still boring, don't get me wrong, but at least I know what I'm working towards. I have goals and gear I want to obtain, and that's why I keep playing.

[Raksha]

SE wants you, me and every person to work hard, long hours, OR do the same event/nm over, over, over over over over over x100-200 times for their precious elite endgame gear. This is good business for them, because inspite of some quitting because of it, MUCH more people continue to play because of it.


If this is what SE wants then they are doing it wrong.

The guy who goes 1/1 for the body he wants doesnt stick around doing VW for shits and giggles.

A point system with high requirements is the only way to gaurantee that everyone has to work for their drops.

[Zinato]

I just want to point out something. This whole thread and many others have people saying the word "everyone" over and over and over but, do you think the Mods see it that way? This thread has under 100 responses (often from the same people) even the largest threads have under 1000, and the likes to posts are even less. This audible group represents not even 1% of the player base more likely near 0.2% I can imagine 50k+ signed up players across all servers (since SE didnt release the actual numbers) Basically the everyone you speak of represents a smaller portion of the player base then the VW drop rates.

My suggestion? If you want change and have the posts for such a major game revision be looked at seriously and not just as an argument, get your LS, your friends list, the players in Port Jeuno, your Moogle, the shopkeepers, your NPC, the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker to post on the forums. You dont speak for everyone, everyone speaks for everyone. If 0.2% is too low to make VW worth doing then its too low to make complaints worth being heard.

This isnt ment as a shot at anyone, its trying to be realistic, and with any luck reduce frustration with being unheard by devs. If you want to be taken seriously, then take gathering voices seriously.

That said, let this count as my vote for an adjustment to VW.

[Jamesy]

they could also try an accumulative % system dependent on the day and how frequent you do voidwatch.

ex. lets say x-player does voidwatch a certain monster once they have a 2-10% drop rate on items including the cells to increase it to 15% which item you get is still random.

day2- you do the same voidwatch not necessarily the day after but next time you do the same one your % raises to the 15% before cells and with cells goes up to 18-21% and item is still random and so on and so forth until you reach 100%.

and the accumulative effect can be set to only take effect after jp midnight or you can select the Notorious monster to have the effect or all.


oh i forgot to add make the effect non transferable so when you select the effect you start off at the 2-10% effect again

[Brolic]

It just hit a new low for me...

An afk pink THF who died at the start of a Kaggen fight, and stayed dead for the duration, was rewarded with a shiny new body...

Yep.

at least you didnt take a cure pot body from the girl that bobs on your schmekel. right right right?

[Laxedrane]

They could always do what they did in Phantasy Star Zero. Like voidwatch everyone got their own chests but every chest contained the exact same items. So if one person opens there chest and gets a tefnut wand and a divine log. Everyone esle who opens their chest will get the same exact item.

Also before you go to the it won't work becuase then to many people will get 1 item at once especially the items that can be sold. Think of it this way, instead of 18 random chances of getting an item, you get one chance of getting an item then the results are multiplied by 18.

[Ilax]

People were overwhelmingly for static augments, and for the exact same reason. People wanna see progress. They don't wanna be right where they were 50 tries ago, while someone else goes 1/1. They want progress, like with empyrean armor and weapons. They wanna know that, when they invest five hours of their lives, that they at least went somewhere. People don't like playing the lottery (well, some maybe, but definitely not as a fulltime job). Just give us something that tells us we're working towards a goal.

If it was a progress, you would need beat the NM 1,000 time, and then Casual player be unhappy.

With *lottery* system, everyone have chance at it, some be ultra unlucky, some be lucky. (End of story)

Note #1
I find it funny, because most of these armor are just good for WS and totally TRASH to TP in, making the sphere effect useless, the only reason most of "CRY BABY" want the armor is to "FEEL SPECIAL", but how special will you feel if everyone have it because its a 100% drop rate? [Abyssea reference]

I wonder sometime if people even think before post they Q.Q thread, as VW work right now is ~1% chance on body for EACH of the 18 player, so stop comparing this with OLD shitty content we had with HNM that was 1% drop for a whole 18 player in alliance, not even going to talk to the 24 to 72h wait per fight.

You can kill VW NM (with a good group) in 2~5 min, you suck if you kill it in 15 min. So even if you have to fight it 200x is max 3,000 minute (if you sux) or 1,000 minute if you in good group. so that is 50h or 16h of your "precious time". God even casual player can do this easy.

If you have so much GIL, then why don't you just buy the NQ version at AH, because it don't have the "Sphere effect" to make you feel special? (Then Go back read Note #1)

I do VW everyday, i see body drop everyday, i also see PPL rage quit in my alliance after 0/1 just because someone in my alliance got body 1/43.

Hater always gonna hate.

[Sparthos]

If it was a progress, you would need beat the NM 1,000 time, and then Casual player be unhappy.

Needing to use such a high number to make your point is silly. If you had to beat an NM 75 times to get a sure-fire chance at the HQ drop, it'd be a number that you could slowly chip away at - a mountain with a summit to be scaled. In the current system you have an unknown number which makes everyone unhappy.

Sure, some people would complain about a point system but overall you'd have people willing to group up because a reward would only be X number of kills away.



With *lottery* system, everyone have chance at it, some be ultra unlucky, some be lucky. (End of story)

Which is why Voidwatch sucks. It punishes linkshells that want to gear up certain people and it punishes randoms by giving some loot, some a waste of time and mismatched drops. It's a piece of shit.

Hey I'm a DRK and I got a mage drop!
Hey I'm a WHM and got a melee drop!
Hey, I'm a moron and got the HQ drop 3x in a row!


Note #1
I find it funny, because most of these armor are just good for WS and totally TRASH to TP in, making the sphere effect useless, the only reason most of "CRY BABY" want the armor is to "FEEL SPECIAL", but how special will you feel if everyone have it because its a 100% drop rate? [Abyssea reference]

Different people want different pieces of gear for different reasons. Some want Ephemeron off Aello while others want Toci's, Hekira or a Radiant mail. Either way you go, your interpretation of how good the gear is doesn't change the fact that the drop rate can be 1/1 or 1/100. In your blindness to bash Abyssea, you've completely missed the point that Voidwatch does nothing but frustrate and detract from the possible pool of people that would participate otherwise.


I wonder sometime if people even think before post they Q.Q thread, as VW work right now is ~1% chance on body for EACH of the 18 player, so stop comparing this with OLD shitty content we had with HNM that was 1% drop for a whole 18 player in alliance, not even going to talk to the 24 to 72h wait per fight.

So because old content had shit rates, the new must too? Unlike old HNM, you have no chance to even SEE the fucking loot unless the random number generator wills it to be so. In theory you could go over 1/1000 on a drop and have no way to increase your odds other than to keep spinning the roulette wheel.

Who cares if the sub 1% rate is spread across more people? Your friend can go 3/30 on HQ drop and what can he/she do other than drop the piece? The system is the 'invisible hand' flipping the bird at you.


You can kill VW NM (with a good group) in 2~5 min, you suck if you kill it in 15 min. So even if you have to fight it 200x is max 3,000 minute (if you sux) or 1,000 minute if you in good group. so that is 50h or 16h of your "precious time". God even casual player can do this easy.

Show me 'casual' players beating mobs like Kalusutrax or Botulus Rex in 2-5mins. You're talking out of your ass and even if you zerg the thing down in that time we're still back at square one where you cannot secure loot no matter how many times you repeat.

Congrats you beat it in 2mins and here is your logs/ore for a job well done.

[Creelo]

Personally, I still think simply adding the option "Add treasure to pool" would be the easiest solution to fixing many of the problems with Voidwatch loot distribution.

The only problem I see with this option is that there could be "drama" over who were to win a lot on something super rare (such as a Coruscanti). However, at least that person would presumably want that item and it wouldn't drop to the floor. Not to mention, if you yourself want such an item and do happen to get it, you wouldn't HAVE to add it to the loot pool.

A Point System would be awesome, but I'm sure the dev team sees that task as just a lot of work for them. :/

[Runespider]

Hater always gonna hate.

Let me guess, you got lucky with drops lately?

[Ilax]

Needing to use such a high number to make your point is silly.

Is only silly to you because you understand jack nothing, 1,000 is a challenge, and we talking about a stupid fight that take 2~5min that you can pop as many time you want. We not talking about 1,000x ADL nor 500 PW here.


Sure, some people would complain about a point system but overall you'd have people willing to group up because a reward would only be X number of kills away.

Not really, because base on your first comment, place holder should be 100 only id imagine, and that be done in 1 day for most of everyone. I don't call that a challenge at all.



Which is why Voidwatch sucks. It punishes linkshells that want to gear up certain people and it punishes randoms by giving some loot, some a waste of time and mismatched drops. It's a piece of shit.

Hey I'm a DRK and I got a mage drop!
Hey I'm a WHM and got a melee drop!
Hey, I'm a moron and got the HQ drop 3x in a row!


Agree that can be frustrating, but after see many LS giving Byakkoa haidate to a god damn BRD in frond of WAR or NIN, just because she had boob or w/e reason it was, i prefer this way.

I can easy deal with the couple armor droping on floor instead see the little cry baby that do VW only 1 time and expect get everything. Do i need explain? I should to make sure you and other understand how retard it can be:

Great LS Leader> Hey Cray Baby, come do VW it drop a nice WHM Body.
CRY BABY> Ah i am sorry, i hate this, i am 0/1 and never get jack anything.
Great LS Leader> No no, just come, we 17 and we ALL GOING to give it to you if it drop.
CRY BABY> Oh nice, oki omw guy!.
Random mage in LS> WTF i am not allow to keep it, jezz buzz i am 0/87 wtf leader.


Different people want different pieces of gear for different reasons. Some want Ephemeron off Aello while others want Toci's, Hekira or a Radiant mail. Either way you go, your interpretation of how good the gear is doesn't change the fact that the drop rate can be 1/1 or 1/100. In your blindness to bash Abyssea, you've completely missed the point that Voidwatch does nothing but frustrate and detract from the possible pool of people that would participate otherwise.

for most of those armor, the only major difference between NQ and HQ is "sphere effect" which i explained that is useless in most of situation. You can buy the NQ if you don't want to deal with VW spam.



So because old content had shit rates, the new must too?

Because abyssea was Impossible to gauge EASY, now all new content have to be?


Unlike old HNM, you have no chance to even SEE the fucking loot unless the random number generator wills it to be so. In theory you could go over 1/1000 on a drop and have no way to increase your odds other than to keep spinning the roulette wheel.

Must be the reason there tons of D.ring all around every server right? You sure you even know what you are talking about?


Show me 'casual' players beating mobs like Kalusutrax or Botulus Rex in 2-5mins. You're talking out of your ass and even if you zerg the thing down in that time we're still back at square one where you cannot secure loot no matter how many times you repeat.

Are you just trolling me or something? I mean common seriously. Those 2 NM need to be kill <5 min, the longer the fight last, the less chance you have to win.

Anyway is not like SE removed abyssea, no they actually nerfed dynamis, nyzle, sky, sea, salvage, etc to make ppl like you happy. There still plenty of event that is TOO WEAK and easy to accomplish, but you guy don't love them bc the gear are not making you feel special, so w/e, go buy NQ version at the Auction house.

What left for who asking a better challenge? VW is not even close to what hardcore player really want, but is best option so far SE been releasing in last 3yr.

So please get off my toe, go back in abyssea,

[FrankReynolds]

If it was a progress, you would need beat the NM 1,000 time, and then Casual player be unhappy.
Yes, I've noticed that everyone hates the magian trial system and has completely stopped using it. /Sarcasm



Hater always gonna hate.

WTF does that mean? Who are you? Too $hort?

[Economizer]

Personally, I still think simply adding the option "Add treasure to pool" would be the easiest solution to fixing many of the problems with Voidwatch loot distribution.

This except you should only be able to do it if you already have the item.

[Ilax]

Personally, I still think simply adding the option "Add treasure to pool" would be the easiest solution to fixing many of the problems with Voidwatch loot distribution.

This except you should only be able to do it if you already have the item.

Assuming you can disband party and form with who you want to give it, yes, otherwise: NO

And you know this WILL LEAD to drama and break apart the fun of doing this EVENT with RANDOM player.

Then you wont be able to do it more then 2 VW per week with your "LS" and will have a good reason this time to complain about the drop rate.

[FrankReynolds]

Agree that can be frustrating, but after see many LS giving Byakkoa haidate to a god damn BRD in frond of WAR or NIN, just because she had boob or w/e reason it was, i prefer this way.

I can easy deal with the couple armor droping on floor instead see the little cry baby that do VW only 1 time and expect get everything. Do i need explain? I should to make sure you and other understand how retard it can be:

Great LS Leader> Hey Cray Baby, come do VW it drop a nice WHM Body.
CRY BABY> Ah i am sorry, i hate this, i am 0/1 and never get jack anything.
Great LS Leader> No no, just come, we 17 and we ALL GOING to give it to you if it drop.
CRY BABY> Oh nice, oki omw guy!.
Random mage in LS> WTF i am not allow to keep it, jezz buzz i am 0/87 wtf leader.

LOL! No DKP? Yeah, great ls leader......




Anyway is not like SE removed abyssea, no they actually nerfed dynamis, nyzle, sky, sea, salvage, etc to make ppl like you happy. There still plenty of event that is TOO WEAK and easy to accomplish, but you guy don't love them bc the gear are not making you feel special, so w/e, go buy NQ version at the Auction house.

What left for who asking a better challenge? VW is not even close to what hardcore player really want, but is best option so far SE been releasing in last 3yr.

So please get off my toe, go back in abyssea,

Luck != challenge. Get a dictionary.

[Ilax]

LOL! No DKP? Yeah, great ls leader......
Because DKP system is fail safe right? I can also transfer my DKP point from LS to LS right?


Luck != challenge. Get a dictionary.

No, you get a dictionary and look the word: Perseverance

[Prothscar]

DKP is a shit system in the long term.

[Ilax]

DKP is a shit system in the long term.

^ amen .

[Runespider]

No, you get a dictionary and look the word: Perseverance

In VW there is the very real possiblity that you may never get the drop, ever..no matter how many times you do it or how good you are. It also can reward the person that only does it once, so it's no reward system at all.

I had people in my old HNMLS that hated kings and botting, then they would get their drops and amazingly their opinion would change overnight. Guessing this is what is happening here. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it! Oooo I got my drop, I love it, I love it! stops the noobs getting!!

[FrankReynolds]

Because DKP system is fail safe right?

If your too lazy to keep track of the points, then you have no one to blame but yourself. FYI: He was talking about a point system that is kept track of by the game. Not a player managed 3rd party DKP.

Wanna loan me some money? I promise I'll pay back the right amount. No need for you to keep track on your own.


I can also transfer my DKP point from LS to LS right?

what does that have to do with anything?



No, you get a dictionary and look the word: Perseverance



challenge - a call or summons to engage in any contest, as of skill, strength, etc.
- difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it.

Not a description I would apply to a 2-5 minute fight. Also does not apply to lottery drops. Luck = Luck.


perseverance - steady persistence in a course of action, a purpose, a state, etc., especially in spite of difficulties, obstacles, or discouragement.

Your right about this one. Discouragement is exactly what a super low lottery drop rate provides.

[Ilax]

In VW there is the very real possiblity that you may never get the drop, ever..no matter how many times you do it or how good you are. It also can reward the person that only does it once, so it's no reward system at all.

So was it in dynamis, sky, abyssea, jar etc.


I had people in my old HNMLS that hated kings and botting, then they would get their drops and amazingly their opinion would change overnight. Guessing this is what is happening here. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it! Oooo I got my drop, I love it, I love it! stops the noobs getting!!

Why you think they end to love it and say "stops the noobs getting", because they feel they archived something, of course is LUCK, but the rarest of the ITEM make you appreciate it.

Hell refer to Kclub that everyone still want it, even if they know is totally trash now, again is all about luck or how much million you willing to toss on it to feel special.


He was talking about a point system that is kept track of by the game. Not a player managed 3rd party DKP.

No he was not.. for last stuff you quoted me, i wont even take time to answer, as this game never been in category you think "challenge" should be, it make me wonder why you even play this game or any MMO.

[Runespider]

So was it in dynamis, sky, abyssea, jar etc.

They just changed it all and made the drops easier to obtain, even salvage. Now they make one that's worse than ever, at a time when they game has almost no endgame?

If these drops were based on effort I would be right with you agreeing, since it's random luck which is total crap.. not so much. Your attitude is colored by the fact you got the drops and want to block others getting them now, if you still had none and were at the same 0/??? as the rest of us you would be singing a different tune.

aka you're full of crap and nobody is going to take you serious.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Just now off of Pil.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp48/Tsukino_Kaji/log2.jpg

[FrankReynolds]

No he was not..

Right here:



Sure, some people would complain about a point system but overall you'd have people willing to group up because a reward would only be X number of kills away.


He's clearly talking about an in game system that keeps track of the number of times that a player has killed the NM.





.. for last stuff you quoted me, i wont even take time to answer, as this game never been in category you think "challenge" should be, it make me wonder why you even play this game or any MMO.

Getting lucky with chests requires no skill or engagement. Its not a challenge. It's something that people tolerate in lieu of an actual effort=reward system. That's perseverance. Rewards shouldn't be based on who can put up with the most BS. The challenge is the fight, and neither the degree of mastery with which you handle the fight nor the number of times you win, has any bearing on whether you get the drop or not. WOE taught us that SE is not good at creating systems that reward based on actual in fight performance. Trial of the magians however has shown that point per kill based reward systems are widely accepted by the masses, and encourage teaming up.

People play the lottery every week for years with the same numbers. Then some guy walks in, buys a quick pick and wins the jackpot. How friggin annoying is that? Not once have I ever heard anyone say "well, I just play lotto for the challenge.".

[Arcon]

DKP is a shit system in the long term.

Period. Doesn't invalidate FrankReynolds' point though, just saying.

[Prothscar]

Having to fight the NM multiple times to get the item you want is to be expected in most any game, let alone an MMO. What would happen if you got all of your bodies/weapons in 1 kill? You'd be bitching that there isn't any content in the game. It would change nothing, you'll bitch regardless. Guaranteeing the drop after a number of kills and having a chance at the drop before then is a fine middle ground.

Go fight Botulus Rex, Ig-Alima, Kalasutrax and tell me it doesn't require skill or engagement.

[Ilax]

They just changed it all and made the drops easier to obtain, even salvage. Now they make one that's worse than ever, at a time when they game has almost no endgame?

If these drops were based on effort I would be right with you agreeing, since it's random luck which is total crap.. not so much. Your attitude is colored by the fact you got the drops and want to block others getting them now, if you still had none and were at the same 0/??? as the rest of us you would be singing a different tune.

aka you're full of crap and nobody is going to take you serious.

I am 0/48 on Qilin, 0/56 on Pil for body, 75/1,500 for my empy, i still spam him everyday. I'm lucky?, NO, so get off my toe.

Can call me full of crap as you want, i did not get all what i have watching my damn moogle spinning around in my MH crying day long.

Maybe VW is not for you, hey good news, there dynamis which give you currency everyday and can feel you "acrhive" something, and for FACT you will get something out of it.


Getting lucky with chests requires no skill or engagement. Its not a challenge. It's something that people tolerate in lieu of an actual effort=reward system.

Dude, the BASE of every MMORPG sit on LUCK... Perseverance + Luck = MMORPG. You sure you even love this type of game?

[Runespider]

I am 0/48 on Qilin, 0/56 on Pil for body, 75/1,500 for my empy, i still spam him everyday. I'm lucky?, NO, so get off my toe.

Many of us complaining about it have done them far more than you seem to of done, I notice you are selective of the ones you have not got drops from, so I'm guessing you got the others pretty quick. Come back when you're 0/200+ on the body you want and 0/??? on anything of importance and maybe people will take you serious.


Can call me full of crap as you want, i did not get all what i have watching my damn moogle spinning around in my MH crying day long.

Looks like you haven't done much at all honestly, when I was 0/50 on Kaggen I was still enjoying it, not so much 0/200+ though, I've put more effort in than you it seems, you don't deserve the loot you've got maybe and need to put in more effort. Oh wait that's your stupid attitude.

[Sparthos]

I am 0/48 on Qilin, 0/56 on Pil for body, 75/1,500 for my empy, i still spam him everyday. I'm lucky?, NO, so get off my toe.

Can call me full of crap as you want, i did not get all what i have watching my damn moogle spinning around in my MH crying day long.

So you've seen yourself that the current system is shit yet instead of realizing there are better ways to build a hamster wheel you laud the current system as a 'challenge' instead of observing that this reward system is just all sorts of bad.

Stockholm's. Look it up cause you're a textbook case here of it. Soon you'll be explaining how this system is superior and encourages challenge.... wait you did that already. Seriously. Challenge? All these shitty systems do is promote people to quit, take long breaks or otherwise look upon SE products as items created by sadistic Japanese men who want to see you suffer as deeply as possible.

YAY WE BEAT BOTULUS REX. WOO. GJ GUYS, WELL DONE.
What did we get?!
Logs, Ores, OMG OMG KNIFE DORP.
This'll look so good on my mannequin!
........


Maybe VW is not for you, hey good news, there dynamis which give you currency everyday and can feel you "acrhive" something, and for FACT you will get something out of it.

You mean those +2 items that want 20k EXP for -10sec on my 2hr? Yeah, 20000 EXP sounds good for some marginal upgrades that basically mean shit since all that matters is Voidwatch. If Abyssea was bad, give me some more and drown it in alcohol please.

The moogle should have been like:

Trial 2054 kupo? It's a poorly thrown together grind designed to get you doing something till we can bother to extrude out some new content, kupo!

Days of Dynamis for 10 sec off a 2hr... I can hear the footsteps of people FLOCKING to do this content.

The fact is that if the base doesn't accept a system it become progressively harder to make gains within the system. WoE? GL finishing a +4 weapon. Old WoE tiers? Progressively harder to setup. Interest in the game? Dwindling because Voidwatch is the only endgame that matters and most people are not going to put up with dozens of kills with no drops to show for it.

Sorry, there are too many other games out there for people to put up with Tanaka's old-world MMO development and the game is suffering yet again because of shit decisions.


Dude, the BASE of every MMORPG sit on LUCK... Perseverance + Luck = MMORPG. You sure you even love this type of game?

Bullshit. Other MMOs have understood that token (point) systems have valid application and that you don't make everything random if you want to succeed in keeping the valuable 'average' player. You need some instant gratification of people will lose interest and without fallback content? Yeah..

Sure, you can have some random rare drops to spice up the pool but everything? Only Tanaka could look years of MMO progress in the eye and simply ignore it for an all or nothing system where you get logs/ore or the HQ drops.

Stupid decisions like this is why SE looks bad in the MMO industry.

[Ilax]

Looks like you haven't done much at all honestly

More then you, that for sure, i can size fast people like you: after 0/40 you brag about 0/9,000. Or you a big lie (which i am 100% that is the case) or you are super unlucky as me with Kclub (0/167), seriously get over it, or just stop doing VW.

Believe the crap that make you happy Runespider, if that make you feel better. I know what i worth, and before call me w/e, take time look FFXIAH.com and see if i fit with what you call me.

For your information, Soniya on fenrir got Body form PIL tonight, from post to post. but hey keep posting Q.Q instead give a try, i am sure is the right way.

PS: Back afk doing more Pil, and for the update i am 0/72 now on Pil.

[Dew]

As I said in another thread VW needs a points system like Einherjar.


Simple solution is to add a points system to VW like einherjar has. A new type of points you can get from doing vw only. Add all of the drops for points as well. Make the better ones worth more points etc. That way it may time some time to get them, but at least eventually you will. Instead of going 0/150 and hope that it drops.

Like say you get 100 points from T1, 300 from T2, 500 from T3, 700 from T4, 1000 from T5, and 1300 from T6. For point values say the Bodies from T3 jeuno are like 100,000 points or 75,000. HQ weapons like 200,000. Make items like Mantis eye from Kaggen 10,000 points.

A system like that would make it so you don't get all the drops right away, but at same time you will get them after enough runs. If you happen to get lucky before then more power to you.

[Ilax]

Bullshit. Other MMOs have understood that token (point) systems have valid application and that you don't make everything random if you want to succeed in keeping the valuable 'average' player. You need some instant gratification of people will lose interest and without fallback content? Yeah..

In reference to WoW, yes of course, they have the money to spam billion of content, they have the player base that match the investment too.


Sure, you can have some random rare drops to spice up the pool but everything?

Stop trolling, out of all content that is currently active on FFXI, ONLY VW is rare/drop and more time sink.

P.S: For the update 0/74 on pil, hey i got 1 metal plate after 16x! Bet you by the end of the night i have body, if no, meh i will get tom or next day.

[FrankReynolds]

In reference to WoW, yes of course, they have the money to spam billion of content, they have the player base that match the investment too.

SE has billions too. FFXI is a drop in the bucket. They piss away more each year on the free promotional posters you see in the video game stores than it would cost to build an expansion. Don't kid yourself. FFXI started out strong like wow. they chose a business model and game design that drives away customers (IE. Voidwatch drop system).


Stop trolling, out of all content that is currently active on FFXI, ONLY VW is rare/drop and more time sink.

P.S: For the update 0/74 on pil, hey i got 1 metal plate after 16x! Bet you by the end of the night i have body, if no, meh i will get tom or next day.

lol @ the person who claims to like going 0/74 on a drop calling another person a troll. You are amazing. Truly epic.

[Ilax]

lol @ the person who claims to like going 0/74 on a drop calling another person a troll. You are amazing. Truly epic.

0/74 is nothing, 4 day is what it took me... i expect 2 week in worse scenario to get the body.

Is nothing compare HNM where you had to BOT 1yr long and risk your account to be BAN.

Is nothing compare SKY, SEA, Jar, ZNM, Dynamis, VNM where most of the item was 1yr wait....(Unless you cheated everyone, or started your own LS, get what you need and ditch who helped you)

Of course if you compare VW with abyssea then you can say: OMG DROP IS TOO LOW. But in fact Abyssea was never the "END-GAME" content, it was the transition from lv75-99.

Abyssea did open the door for new player to join, without have to invest 7yr in the game as we did to get good armor, we all 99 now, even player that joined 2 month ago is able to catch player that been playing this game for 7yr long. I think is time to resume FFXI now.

VW is the new End-Game that DEV released, and you think you should be able to get all armor after 1 week?

What is "Truly epic", is how you think DEV should spend 3 month to create new content that you can finish in 1 week.
What is "Truly epic", is how you can easy do dynamis now and get a RELIC to archive something instead bash on VW.
What is "Truly epic", is how it wont make any difference if you get the new Body and still have Ash club as main weapon.

What i am saying is there still tons of "Casual-Content" available in FFXI (hell everything is now..) that can keep you busy and happy, but instead you prefer to attack VW, and the whole reason is probably just because you want the "reward" without the work.

And don't get me wrong with my signature, i hate Tanaka for different reason... You cannot ask people to work hard on something and then reduce difficulty and make fun of them, this was BULLSHIT he said something like that in interview. I don't hate him because i had to do ~7,500 final blow for mandau, but because it took me forever to get it done, then he change it to ~1000 only.

I don't hate him because he put 1,500 plate i need for Empy lv95, but because i know he will reduce that to 150 when everyone ruined they life into it. Same go for 500 PW and 1000 ADL that going to take 3yr.

This is what i call a real "Hamster wheel", where you can just sit on your ass instead and wait they reduce difficulty, so what is even the point to do it, oh yeah for the fun of working 3yr long to get something 1 week earlier then everyone else? Ok right.. i pass...

If is what waiting VW, Nerf nerf nerf more nerf!, 100% drop all body go go!, then ya, this game don't even worth to be play, nor 14, nor any MMORPG SE ever do. Ill make sure to wait 6yr to play FFXIV so i can achieve everything in 1 week and play another game, at least i can save the 6yr of my life into a better MMORPG on market.

I love play MMORPG for a reason, if i was so worry for the time sink, i would just go play COD, PacMAN, unreal tournament, and so on. If SE don't understand that part, i am sure more then just me will end to stop playing they game.

[Tagrineth]

At a bare minimum I just wish SE would make it so if you get a duplicate Rare item, it went to the pool or to another player's box automatically or something.

[Brolic]

At a bare minimum I just wish SE would make it so if you get a duplicate Rare item, it went to the pool or to another player's box automatically or something.

This is all a lot of ppl are asking, that or if you don't want an item put it in the pool.

[Xellith]

Unfortunately the dev team are sadists or just stupid so something like this will not happen.

[saevel]

Like I've said previously, this was done on purpose. They still want you to be doing this content in three years, so they've factored that in when figuring drop rates. Their spending their money on saving FFXIV and want to reduce development funds on FFXI to as little as possible. That means a small dev team with limited time and thus each event must last years instead of months.

[Camiie]

Like I've said previously, this was done on purpose. They still want you to be doing this content in three years, so they've factored that in when figuring drop rates. Their spending their money on saving FFXIV and want to reduce development funds on FFXI to as little as possible. That means a small dev team with limited time and thus each event must last years instead of months.


I know you're not defending them so don't take this as an attack on you.

I think what they fail to consider is that some of us either aren't going to do the event as is, or are going to try it and get fed up with it quickly. Good luck getting people like that to stick around for years, SE, especially when there's really not much else to do at the moment and not much promising stuff on the horizon.

[FrankReynolds]

0/74 is nothing, 4 day is what it took me... i expect 2 week in worse scenario to get the body.

OK, so how is killing an NM 225 times and not knowing if you will get the drop at the end better than a point system that says "kill X NM 225 times and you will get the drop" ?


Is nothing compare HNM where you had to BOT 1yr long and risk your account to be BAN.

Yes, that system sucked. Terrible comparison.


Is nothing compare SKY, SEA, Jar, ZNM, Dynamis, VNM where most of the item was 1yr wait....(Unless you cheated everyone, or started your own LS, get what you need and ditch who helped you)

Most of those events were actually a lot of fun (I personally hated ZNM due to the stupid picture crap, and dynamis city runs should have been 2 hour limit with higher drops). Waiting for the drop was the shitty part. It's still shitty not knowing if your effort is being wasted now. A form of currency for attaining gear like limbus coins would allow some luck factor without the complete BS chance of having 1 guy go 1/1 while it takes another guy 1,000 tries. I still don't know why you like the idea of going 0/74, while that pink dancer over there gets the drop first time though.


Of course if you compare VW with abyssea then you can say: OMG DROP IS TOO LOW. But in fact Abyssea was never the "END-GAME" content, it was the transition from lv75-99.

Abyssea did open the door for new player to join, without have to invest 7yr in the game as we did to get good armor, we all 99 now, even player that joined 2 month ago is able to catch player that been playing this game for 7yr long. I think is time to resume FFXI now.

The only reason abyssea got blown through so fast was because the requirements were too low. If it took 200 seals, and 200 Jewels/stones/cards/coins to upgrade each piece of af3 +2, you would still be in there now, calling it endgame.


VW is the new End-Game that DEV released, and you think you should be able to get all armor after 1 week?

No, I think if I do it for a week, I should know that I am 1 week closer to reaching my goal, and that the guy next to me isn't going to get the drop first pop, and then drop 2 more because he already has it, while I get nothing.


What is "Truly epic", is how you think DEV should spend 3 month to create new content that you can finish in 1 week.
What is "Truly epic", is how you can easy do dynamis now and get a RELIC to archive something instead bash on VW.
What is "Truly epic", is how it wont make any difference if you get the new Body and still have Ash club as main weapon.

Dynamis drops toki's now? I can build a relic in VW? No? OK, I guess I'll have to do both then.


What i am saying is there still tons of "Casual-Content" available in FFXI (hell everything is now..) that can keep you busy and happy, but instead you prefer to attack VW, and the whole reason is probably just because you want the "reward" without the work.

Actually, I want the reward for the work. You just keep hoping your gonna go 1/1 on something epic. I bet casinos love you.


And don't get me wrong with my signature, i hate Tanaka for different reason... You cannot ask people to work hard on something and then reduce difficulty and make fun of them, this was BULLSHIT he said something like that in interview. I don't hate him because i had to do ~7,500 final blow for mandau, but because it took me forever to get it done, then he change it to ~1000 only.

I don't hate him because he put 1,500 plate i need for Empy lv95, but because i know he will reduce that to 150 when everyone ruined they life into it. Same go for 500 PW and 1000 ADL that going to take 3yr.

What if he didn't tell you how many Metal plates it took, and then some people only had to trade 1, but you ended up needing 2,000. That would be great huh? Lottery for every thing. Some people could just talk to the moogle, and it drops mandau. others need 150 million gil in currency. Fun right.



If is what waiting VW, Nerf nerf nerf more nerf!, 100% drop all body go go!, then ya, this game don't even worth to be play, nor 14, nor any MMORPG SE ever do. Ill make sure to wait 6yr to play FFXIV so i can achieve everything in 1 week and play another game, at least i can save the 6yr of my life into a better MMORPG on market.

Nah, they will make everything in FFXIV lottery with chests too. Your friend will finish everything in 2 weeks of casual play. It will still take you 6 years to get the drops, but you will be ok with that because that is what you like.

[Ilax]

Lottery for every thing. Some people could just talk to the moogle, and it drops mandau.

Mog bonanza.... New Goblin that give novio earring. You sure you play FFXI?

[FrankReynolds]

Mog bonanza.... New Goblin that give novio earring. You sure you play FFXI?

Exactly how does that make VW chest system good?

[Transmit]

http://i.imgur.com/YMUhJ.png
(Two bodies, two fights)

Working as intended!

Along with this I've also had 4 pairs of Dillaram Sollerets, about 9 chakrams from Pil, but no harness in around 80 fights so far. About 5 pairs of Faijin boots from Qilin, while THF's in my LS still havent got a pair yet. Whatever Akvan's body is called, with no job that can use it. Loot system is great.

I enjoy VW to an extent I just feel I would enjoy it much more with some sort of point system like Einherjar rather than the randomness it is (and I don't mind in the slightest doing 100 kills for a body drop). I feel genuinly bad for other people in my LS when I get 2 mekira's back to back.

I know a lot of people say "Remember the old days!" and I do remember the old days. Salvage was one of my favourite events, and the drop rates on bodies is similar to salvage 35's , and to make matters worse you could only do salvage once a day.... but when we got a drop, it went to the person who needed it, I didnt ever end up with two Ares's Body's because a random number generator said so. Though the drop rates are similiar to old events, it just feels like a kick in the teeth to hear about every other player getting their tenth piece you want.

[Ilax]

http://i.imgur.com/YMUhJ.png
Time stamp in FFXI???


Working as intended!
Dude i know people that got Kclub 2/5, and i am 0/167, how this make a damn difference? Fact is you have 1% chance to get body, you can feel free to tell everyone in your PT "Hey look i am super lucky guy, suck on it! ima drop it to get new fresh one ahahaha!".


I don't mind in the slightest doing 100 kills for a body drop
Same here, and is what i focus on, not focusing if john smite that won 30x the same body and brag about it.


I know a lot of people say "Remember the old days!" and I do remember the old days. Salvage was one of my favourite events, and the drop rates on bodies is similar to salvage 35's , and to make matters worse you could only do salvage once a day.... but when we got a drop, it went to the person who needed it

-Assuming you did the 154 run with everyone.
-Assuming your leader never cheated you.
-Assuming you were online when they did salvage and body droped.
-(and i probably miss some factor)

Then yes, all that look nice on paper, but you know as me is not the case for everyone, i saw too many time that people got DENY to lot on salvage piece because:

-They was new player.
-They missed run / not enough LS point
-Leader made favor to a friend and bypassed you.
-Leader decided to sell your body for 25 million to a gil buyer to fund his relic.

In VW, well, all this can't happen, the great bonus is you have a chance to get it 1/1 and move on quick, but you also can be unlucky and have to do it 200 time like the old salvage, but no matter what, you in control of your drop and no one will remove you the reward.


I didnt ever end up with two Ares's Body's because a random number generator said so.
Feel lucky you had a great leader or joined LS when they formed and not be at the bottom list of LS priority.


Though the drop rates are similiar to old events, it just feels like a kick in the teeth to hear about every other player getting their tenth piece you want.

100% agree, but this is nothing new, after doing HNM 1year long, and saw my great leader take Neptunal Abjuration: Legs in front of me, when i have Mandau and Cursed -1 [that was 16m worth], i don't need to say it turned me off and called all his LS bullshit, wait did i forget to say what job that douchbag had? oh yes, well he had WHM, and BRD only.

FACT is he made the LS 1 year before i joined, so it was more logic to give N.leg to his BRD, fuck the mandau guy that saved his point on every drop for 1 year long. I rather do VW 25x per day for 8 day max to get what i want thanks.

[Camiie]

The old HNM drop system was a poop sandwich. The new VW system is a glass full of spit. One may be less disgusting than the other, but you'd have to be a very messed person up to want either one.

Does the VW loot distribution suck less than what we had in the past? Yeah. Does that make it good? No.

[Ilax]

The old HNM drop system was a poop sandwich. The new VW system is a glass full of spit. One may be less disgusting than the other, but you'd have to be a very messed person up to want either one.

Does the VW loot distribution suck less than what we had in the past? Yeah. Does that make it good? No.

I can't disagree with that Cemiie, but what i wonder is how DEV could make it better, i have a real doubt about allowing people to distribute they treasure.

I can just imagine you get 2 Body of something then give it to a friend, and then that friend get something 2x and instead giving to you, he give to another guy that you don't really like. I think changing it can just lead to more drama.

Also have to think how people in port jeuno will start shouting: Toci's Harness do you need it? 16 million /tell. Then all you know, is not anymore about "How lucky you are" or "how many time you did it", but also "How much gil you paid for it". You just open a new wave of RMT / Gil buyer.

[Raksha]

I can't disagree with that Cemiie, but what i wonder is how DEV could make it better, i have a real doubt about allowing people to distribute they treasure.


People have been saying it in just about every post in this thread and others.

Change it to a point system.

[Zinato]

I was told by a player today that a system to give 100% drop rate on bodies was implemented without warning, the system will drop 100% on the 300th kill. By his testimonial he got his 1/300 on exactly kill 300, and at this point i am ready to believe any good news. But, one testimonial isnt too credible so I would like to have someone confirm this before I start doing Kaggen let me know if anyone gets 0/300.

[FrankReynolds]

The old HNM drop system was a poop sandwich. The new VW system is a glass full of spit. One may be less disgusting than the other, but you'd have to be a very messed person up to want either one.

Does the VW loot distribution suck less than what we had in the past? Yeah. Does that make it good? No.

That was an excellent description of the 2 events. +1

I feel the same way. I don't grade game content on a sliding scale.

[Camiie]

I can't disagree with that Cemiie, but what i wonder is how DEV could make it better, i have a real doubt about allowing people to distribute they treasure.

I can just imagine you get 2 Body of something then give it to a friend, and then that friend get something 2x and instead giving to you, he give to another guy that you don't really like. I think changing it can just lead to more drama.

Also have to think how people in port jeuno will start shouting: Toci's Harness do you need it? 16 million /tell. Then all you know, is not anymore about "How lucky you are" or "how many time you did it", but also "How much gil you paid for it". You just open a new wave of RMT / Gil buyer.


My compromise would be leaving the randomness in place to appease the devs, but adding a point/token system similar to Einherjar's on the side to throw a bone to the playerbase. Anything obtained from the points system would be R/EX so as to avoid creating a market as you've described. I guess someone could still make money from it somehow, but I think it'd be a bit harder. The points items would be good enough to be desirable, but not the absolute top of the line stuff.

Also, make the boxes work like NMs do. If a player already has a Rare item, then that item doesn't appear in the pool. That spot in the pool could be filled in with anything else. Maybe it would increase the chance of them getting some weapon or armor they don't already have. Maybe they would just get another log... or perhaps they could add more desirable drops? Whatever the case, the box definitely needs to be smarter in what it's giving out. I guess you could say SE needs to start thinking outside the box!

Anyway, it may not even take wholesale changes to make this event work for more people. A few tweaks to box contents shouldn't be that difficult. That would certainly help. Now adding in a points system, which would more than likely include new/unique gear would take a lot more work, but that work would go a very long way in smoothing things over with the players and luring more people into the VW grind.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Time stamp in FFXI???For those who don't know, those are plugins for the windower he's using. Just thought I'd point out the fact that he's using a windower and posting images of it on the official forum. Brilliant.

[Arcon]

For those who don't know, those are plugins for the windower he's using. Just thought I'd point out the fact that he's using a windower and posting images of it on the official forum. Brilliant.

http://i.imgur.com/LTvCq.png

[Frost]

Arguing for the sake of arguing?

Seriously, the argument "It's always been that way" holds no water...

Just because it has always been a random crap drop system, doesn't mean it has to remain that way.

But if you'd like to play that game...
How about this: "You've always had a loot pool that you can decide what gear goes to what person that earned it."

And arguing extremes that don't exist is not helping your case either. Spouting off fairy tales about stuff that isn't happening, because it can't due to the current system, and hypotheticals that have no basis in reality, doesn't help your argument. Comments like: "Leader decided to sell your body for 25 million to a gil buyer to fund his relic." is riddled with assumptions to the point I wonder if you're Glen Beck or something; the rest of the list is just as bad.

If your leader is unfair, leave, but if you're new to a group you should know how things operate before you enter into an arrangement. You're also cherry picking your argument.

- Maybe it was a sell and split where the entire run (including new folks) got a share?
- Maybe they just gave the bodies away to help out (yes it happens, it's how I ended up in my current linkshell, they're good people and just like to help people).
- Your bad experiences shouldn't define everyone else's.

And just to nail that last point home. If you're really "looking out for us" as your post awkwardly presents itself to be doing.. Then go with the common voice. We don't want to be "chumped" by SE's current system. Give us more control over our experiences. You don't want a linkshell leader to decide who gets what? But you're willing to let SE decide? At least even a corrupt leader has some semblance of a reward system, even if it's as selfish as "I don't need this, you can have it", you can't even do that in Voidwatch...

[Ilax]

- Your bad experiences shouldn't define everyone else's.

If it was just me.. i think you just try reverse the problem, no doubt there great leader on every server, but not to the point to say "in general" they all great, not even close to that.

I rather have the server decide if i get drop, then a dumb ass telling me i can't lot for 1 zillion randomness reason.

[Raksha]

I rather have the server decide if i get drop, then a dumb ass telling me i can't lot for 1 zillion randomness reason.

Point system is an answer to both. Your LS leader can't collect your points and sell them to other people, and you also don't have to put up with crazy random 1% drop rates.

[Ilax]

Also, make the boxes work like NMs do. If a player already has a Rare item, then that item doesn't appear in the pool. That spot in the pool could be filled in with anything else. Maybe it would increase the chance of them getting some weapon or armor they don't already have. Maybe they would just get another log... or perhaps they could add more desirable drops? Whatever the case, the box definitely needs to be smarter in what it's giving out. I guess you could say SE needs to start thinking outside the box!

100% agree on that. [That was the first mistake DEV did]


Now adding in a points system, which would more than likely include new/unique gear would take a lot more work, but that work would go a very long way in smoothing things over with the players and luring more people into the VW grind.

Yes that would be smart, the problem is DEV gave us CRUOR and EXP as side reward, that is second mistake DEV did imo. That right, they could give us special VW point instead, these point could be spend for Atmacite or "Special gear" as you say, but knowing SE, i doubt they ever change that now... They kinda missed the boat, this say, it make me wonder how people that have access to TEST server never mentioned that before final release of VW? Or wait maybe VW came out before the public test server hmm.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Doesn't matter when SE ignores what the players keep telling them is wrong with the system and insist 'that's not the problem'.

They've been doing it for awhile anyway (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106952-Cool-we-luv-it!?p=4789327&viewfull=1#post4789327)

[Khajit]

In other news a person just got 3 of the same body during a run.many rages ensued.

[blowfin]

I think they should make us wait until JP midnight ticks over to be able to open the loot chest.

[Runespider]

It's annoying that shouts are starting to dry up for VW too now (and many still didn't get their drops), either the regular group builders got the stuff they wanted and stopped or they simply gave up trying.

[Prothscar]

So build it yourself. Reliance on others is a weak quality.

[Runespider]

So build it yourself. Reliance on others is a weak quality.

Weak or not it's a quality the vast vast majority of the playerbase has, every server has a small group of people that make groups and everyone else that joins them. You can talk how it should be which is nice, but you still have to accept the reality and telling people to "make your own groups" won't instantly make them go do it or even contemplate it.

[Prothscar]

So it's their own damn fault and they have no one to blame but themselves, it isn't an excuse to blame someone else.

[Runespider]

So it's their own damn fault and they have no one to blame but themselves, it isn't an excuse to blame someone else.

Have you actually joined groups where someone that isn't very good at building parties has made for VW? Just curious.

Anyway it's not a big deal was just another thought and a bump to the topic XD

[Prothscar]

If the party structure is horrendous you better bet your ass I'd be saying something about it, and 9/10 times it will be corrected. If not, /pcmd leave. I do not fancy wasting stones or my time if people will not listen to advice. That's the problem I think with most, they're too timid or too lazy to speak up and help organize or correct issues in groups and would rather just ride it out.

[Ilax]

I had same issue on Fenrir, and is why i keep doing shout for City rush(sandy,windy,bastok) / T1 to t5 Jeuno etc / ZM 1 to 3. High price to pay to get something done, but if i don't do it, who gonna do it?

Easy to cry in a corner saying: I can't find ppl!, i can't get invite, but if you don't put effort into it, meh your lost. You always have LS option that do 2 run max per week and take forever to get what you need. That nothing new if you ask me, been same for everything.

Effort i put into tier up player on fenrir worth it, as later on, i get them for Pil spam, Qilin spam, iga, rex or w/e i want.

[Runespider]

The kicker sadly is that VW is actually really popular and a fair part of it is because of the low drop rates and glowing bodies, it really sucks but that's actually the reality of it... :( Skinner box works on us too well.

Future content is going to have horrendous drop rates and glowey stuff on them, 100% sure of it. If we could actually not do content we hated certain aspects of they might listen but we complain and do it anyway so it's kind of a lost cause really lol

[Camate]

Thanks so much for all the feedback regarding Voidwatch.
I have a couple responses to some of the suggestions and opinions that have been stated. (Sorry it’s a bit long)


Drop rates of equipment for each chapter
There are no drop rate differences for equipment in chapter 1, 2, or 3. Each has the same amount of rarity and there are no differences between chapters.


Bonuses for players who spawn the monster
It would be possible to look into this if other players who pay the costs received the same effects, for example, receiving the same benefits when using the maximum amount of cells. On the other hand, we are not thinking about offering special benefits just for spawning the monster. In extreme cases, only the player spawning the monster would consume Voidstones and continuous battles could take place which would eliminate the good point of Voidwatch where each member receives their own reward and would also develop long claim times.


Cruor needed for atmacite upgrades
For the amount of cruor needed to upgrade atmacites, the idea was not to acquire these beforehand in Abyssea, but to upgrade atmacites while receiving cruor as rewards for Voidwatch. In order to save cruor, it’s possible to increase the amount gained by using cells or participate in battles without spending Voidstones just for cruor rewards.

In regards to other feedback we have received, especially about the areas we plan to focus on to address, I would like to go over the planned adjustments.

Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.


Weakness revamps
In order to create battles that can be completed without relying on temporary items, we are planning to revamp weaknesses as well as adjust the distribution of temporary items.

Also, in regards to cases where the weakness is difficult or due to your setup you cannot exploit it even though you determined what it is, we are planning to perform appropriate adjustments. Though we have already received quite a bit of feedback on weakness, if there are any others you would like us to look into please submit your feedback.


Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.


Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.

Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.

Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback.

[Atoreis]

(I can understand a little)

[Brolic]

so nothing, you've told us nothing.

[Zubis]

Don't apologise for long answers, it's nice to see thorough responses :)

I still think that the amount of cruor required to max an atmacite is excessive; at 10K per fight getting a single atmacite to level 15 will take 150 fights.

[Peppy]

Thanks so much for all the feedback regarding Voidwatch.
I have a couple responses to some of the suggestions and opinions that have been stated. (Sorry it’s a bit long)


Drop rates of equipment for each chapter
There are no drop rate differences for equipment in chapter 1, 2, or 3. Each has the same amount of rarity and there are no differences between chapters.


Bonuses for players who spawn the monster
It would be possible to look into this if other players who pay the costs received the same effects, for example, receiving the same benefits when using the maximum amount of cells. On the other hand, we are not thinking about offering special benefits just for spawning the monster. In extreme cases, only the player spawning the monster would consume Voidstones and continuous battles could take place which would eliminate the good point of Voidwatch where each member receives their own reward and would also develop long claim times.


Cruor needed for atmacite upgrades
For the amount of cruor needed to upgrade atmacites, the idea was not to acquire these beforehand in Abyssea, but to upgrade atmacites while receiving cruor as rewards for Voidwatch. In order to save cruor, it’s possible to increase the amount gained by using cells or participate in battles without spending Voidstones just for cruor rewards.

In regards to other feedback we have received, especially about the areas we plan to focus on to address, I would like to go over the planned adjustments.

Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.


Weakness revamps
In order to create battles that can be completed without relying on temporary items, we are planning to revamp weaknesses as well as adjust the distribution of temporary items.

Also, in regards to cases where the weakness is difficult or due to your setup you cannot exploit it even though you determined what it is, we are planning to perform appropriate adjustments. Though we have already received quite a bit of feedback on weakness, if there are any others you would like us to look into please submit your feedback.


Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.


Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.

Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.

Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback.

I speak for a at least my linkshell if not other. The biggest issue we have is how rare items are distributed. I have done over 400 Kaggen's with a friend of mine to get him his body from that NM. Drop rate aside, I know he is unlucky, but this is verging on ridiculous. I wouldn't mind the low/random drop rate if I had a mechanism for doing a ton of them (that didnt cost 20-30k/per attempt). If there was a mechanism for allowing people who put in hard work to obtain items from Voidwatch that the chest will not give them, some of these issue will be non-issues.

Now, I am happy that the Dev team is listening (I think) to player feedback, but I am not sure they are not understanding what the issue is. This is like if I went to the hospital with a broken arm and you tell me you are going to fix a cut on my leg. While appreciate the care on my leg, that was not all the major issue or problem I came to the hospital with.

[detlef]

So you are supposed to make your cruor by redoing fights over and over and over and over without using stones. Also, you should be using cells to increase your cruor yield. But the cells cost cruor (or CP/ISP/AN), and if my math is correct, buying cells with cruor is actually a losing proposition.

[Raksha]

a few thoughts:

You can't get a net increase in cruor if you are spending cells to get items.

No one cares that the drop rates are the same between chapters 1, 2, and 3. what we care about is that the dropr rates are all too low.

Exploiting weaknesess is not a problem, don't fix what isnt broken.

You can't make fights that are possible without temps, without making them trivial WITH temps.

I leave logs and ores in the chest, destroying rare loot accomplishes nothing besides pissing people off.

Certain routes are unpopular because the rewards are useless.

[Insaniac]

Changing the distribution of temp items? Predicted fanatics/fools drink nerf incoming.

[Khajit]

If i'm supposed to gain cruor via spamming without stones then why is there no option for me to transfer stones back to the npc or to tell the rift not to use a stone? In the 1/million chance i get the drop on the first mob of the run I'm stuck wasting 3 stones that I don't need to use.

[Atoreis]

The truth is that SE intentionally made VW this way (ridiculous low drop rate) to keep us playing the game w/o the need for them to add new content soon. They cant say that officially so they will keep "listening" a feedback and focus on everything else beside fair reward system.

[Tamoa]

Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.

I think this is my favourite. "Hey guys, I just got my second Mekira Meikogai, and I destroyed it!"

Yeah that'll help frustration among those that STILL didn't get that ra/ex item they want.

[Nynja]

Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback.

Is there any reason why SE is so adamant about not budging at all on the VW loot system? I get it, they want to avoid a scenario where people can sell drops to a specific person, fine. A pointage system like assault/ein (which was a wonderful system...no random number generator, do X 10 times and receive Y) basically says "if you want in the ally, pay me", fine. Is there any reason why they cant impose a little check so that if someone has a rare item, another one wont load in their chest and will go to someone else at random in the alliance?


http://i.imgur.com/YMUhJ.png
(Two bodies, two fights)

I dont think you understand how discouraging that is. Even to force loot on one person, you'd still need to have acquired 17 of them (presuming you're going with 18 people, why would you not).

[Theytak]

Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback.
Honestly, everything else you said is completely irrelevant to the core problem with VW, and simply glosses over it by fixing minor inconveniences or answering little gripes. How soon is "in the future"? The horrible loot system is the only thing 90% of the people who do voidwatch, and 100% of the people who want to do it but don't, care about. Really, if they refuse to tell us anything about their plans for fixing the badly designed loot system, you should just tell us and save us the agony of hoping against hope that they'll go against their normal routine and fix something they designed badly, instead of telling us that their design is fine, we just don't understand it.

[Zinato]

Thanks so much for all the feedback regarding Voidwatch.
I have a couple responses to some of the suggestions and opinions that have been stated. (Sorry it’s a bit long)


Drop rates of equipment for each chapter
There are no drop rate differences for equipment in chapter 1, 2, or 3. Each has the same amount of rarity and there are no differences between chapters.


Bonuses for players who spawn the monster
It would be possible to look into this if other players who pay the costs received the same effects, for example, receiving the same benefits when using the maximum amount of cells. On the other hand, we are not thinking about offering special benefits just for spawning the monster. In extreme cases, only the player spawning the monster would consume Voidstones and continuous battles could take place which would eliminate the good point of Voidwatch where each member receives their own reward and would also develop long claim times.


Cruor needed for atmacite upgrades
For the amount of cruor needed to upgrade atmacites, the idea was not to acquire these beforehand in Abyssea, but to upgrade atmacites while receiving cruor as rewards for Voidwatch. In order to save cruor, it’s possible to increase the amount gained by using cells or participate in battles without spending Voidstones just for cruor rewards.

In regards to other feedback we have received, especially about the areas we plan to focus on to address, I would like to go over the planned adjustments.

Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.


Weakness revamps
In order to create battles that can be completed without relying on temporary items, we are planning to revamp weaknesses as well as adjust the distribution of temporary items.

Also, in regards to cases where the weakness is difficult or due to your setup you cannot exploit it even though you determined what it is, we are planning to perform appropriate adjustments. Though we have already received quite a bit of feedback on weakness, if there are any others you would like us to look into please submit your feedback.


Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.


Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.

Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.

Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback.

I am fairly sure all I got from that response is, Players are obtaining drops faster then we anticipated we will be making adjustments to reduce the rate the rare items drop.

Also someone said this already but, if I am supposed to do these without stones for exp/cruor only why cant I say "Do not use stone for this attempt"? Would be great for climb runs wouldnt have to waste stones on fights I dont need for fights i do need.

I wanted to say something praising the teleport system but, if I do it may be taken away.

[saevel]

I am fairly sure all I got from that response is, Players are obtaining drops faster then we anticipated we will be making adjustments to reduce the rate the rare items drop.

Also someone said this already but, if I am supposed to do these without stones for exp/cruor only why cant I say "Do not use stone for this attempt"? Would be great for climb runs wouldnt have to waste stones on fights I dont need for fights i do need.

I wanted to say something praising the teleport system but, if I do it may be taken away.


Pretty much this. 0/300 is too fast for them, they still want us fighting Kaggan and Phil three years from now.
Guys their about to nerf Voidwatch. They clearly said their going to nerf temps while keeping the monsters ability to instantly own you the same. Their going to do absolutely nothing to increase the drop rates of items, if anything they will lower the drop rates in such a way that it takes you longer to obtain your item.

SE has till the end of 2Q FY2012 before I decide to throw in the towel, I'm not alone in this.

[darkhorror]

Keep the current system of chests, then add a point system on top of it for the very low drop rate items. That way you can work towards an item you really want and know you will eventually get there. Plus have a chance at getting stuff randomly if you happen to get lucky.

[Insaniac]

Ito: We understand the players do not trust the devs and we would like to work on that.
Players: That's good to hear, Ito. What do you plan on doing?
Ito: The same shit we've been doing for the past 8 months!
Players: ........................

[Zinato]

Keep the current system of chests, then add a point system on top of it for the very low drop rate items. That way you can work towards an item you really want and know you will eventually get there. Plus have a chance at getting stuff randomly if you happen to get lucky.

My only fear about this is, I can see and arguement of something like "This would not be fair to other players as many have already fought 400 times for the same drops you are trying to obtain, these players would not get credit towards this goal and would in a way have wasted such progess"... in other words since it wasnt put in right away players who have done VW and failed to get an item would be out of luck

[Eldelphia]

Oh FFS. How sadistic can you be to your players? It's miserable spamming VW mobs over and over to try and get body pieces. The loot distribution system is appalling. Why do you not understand this. It's not fun. I'm about done with trying to get a Heka body from Akvan and I'm a career mage... Yet DD after DD and tank after tank are dropping them. They don't get their's either.

Seriously had enough of Voidwatch. Let alone having to redo dynamis AGAIN because the company won't actually develop anything new. When are we going to get new and unique content? Ir's the only thing have been holding on to and SWTOR right now is one hell of a lot more fun... Cancelling my subscription is beginning to seem like my only viable option.

[saevel]

Basically guys it comes down to this. These are the new ground kings.

In the past SE controlled loot creation though the high respawn times. Once per day for a NQ and twice per week for a HQ (roughly). In a single month only a handful of certain rare items would be created on the server. Their original VW design had us only doing them 4~ish times per day, about the rate at which stones regenerate.

Well we've figured out how to spam the NM's at a considerably higher rate and thus we've generated more rare loot in the world then they've wanted us to. Now it'll only take a few months to a year for the average person to get a certain rare item vs taking the three to four years they had originally planned. On top of this they created fights were the NM could just decide to win and kill everyone. This was a further loot control as it ensured that even if you fight the NM often that not all your fights could yield a reward. Yet again the playerbase has found a way around their skinners' box. We've devised strategy's that consist of frequent use's of temp items while hitting procs to replenish those items. By taking down the NM's fast we reduce the time they have to decide to kill us, and by procing them often we ensure we deal high damage while staying alive. This allows us to win fights at a consistent rate and maximize our loot distribution even though their system is designed to prevent this.

We've called them on their BS skinner's box idea and Tanaka is pissed off. Expect more pain in the coming months.

[Joyroth]

More logs & ingots! Yes Please!

[Coldbrand]

So basically you're not fixing drop rates but you will nerf fanatic's/fool's. You guys are on a roll!

[Raksha]

A few more thoughts:

Doing a fight without using a stone is a waste of time. Without light bonuses, you get super gimp cruor.

Also, I wonder where the dev team thinks this extra 20+ inv space to collect all the unstackable shit we get in 4+ fights is going to come from.

[Finuve]

this is dumb...

fix the stupid drop system,. scrap what is there completely and redo it

THIS IS WHAT THE PLAYERS WANT, TELL THE DEV TEAM TO STOP BEING DEAF

[FrankReynolds]

Blah. Thank you for confirming that this system will never get better. I think I will just skip your shitty voidwatch system and wait for the next thing that replaces it to be released.

[Sargent]

Seriously SE, I know you guys are trying to avoid the mass of people selling R/E drops like what happened with Abyssea, but this is too extreme. Going 0/x00 on one drop from one mob is utterly ridiculous, and I know several people who have done this. I'm not saying change the loot system or the weakness system, they're both fine as is (with the exception of BST/PUP procs), but do something about these godawful body drop rates.

Here's to hoping The Last Stand and Dungeon Crawl or w/e it is doesn't share the same loot system/drop rates. Having low drop rates is fine if the alliance can dictate who the drop goes to, otherwise it's just a waste.

[Alhanelem]

Some of the ideas they are tossing around are interesting, but a few of those paragaphs were just too vague to mean anything at all to me...

[Sparthos]

I love how every response precisely misses the point.

The base doesn't give a shit about player bonuses for popping or cruor needed for atmacite upgrades when the droprates are so bad you'll be capping out on EXP/cruor long before getting what you want. Got friends? See you at 0/500 bro.

Getting rare drops or dont like the ores you keep getting repeatedly? We're implementing a toss feature so you can frustrate your friends into the floor because apparently leaving the gear in the box to despawn is impossible. The base says add to inventory, SE says add to floor.

You can't make this stuff up.

[Cahlum]

So basically the same old usual bullshit from SE? When will you listen to your playerbase? I have lost count of how many qilins I have done trying to get fajin boots and still they have not dropped to me, yet everyone else in my shell has got them 2-3 times. Maybe in a few months I may get them, then I can finally move onto other VW NMs >.>.

Now you are going to nerf fanatics and fools making the fights even slower and more tedious to kill each NM. I wonder if the devs even read this.

[FrankReynolds]

I wonder if the devs even read this.

It actually sounds like they do read this. They don't use the feedback the way we would have hoped for though.

They read that:
People think the mobs are too easy
New people have trouble getting groups for the lower tier runs

People who have been at it a while hate the drop system, but they are soooo addicted that they burn through all their cruor / stones


So it seems the devs read that and decided:
to make everything harder

force people who have been at it for a while to help new people get into it by rewarding them with cruor, so that new people can be frustrated with the drop system too

all while keeping the same shitty drop system that keeps people stuck doing it.



The devs have an uncanny skill when it comes to missing the point.

[Zinato]

Perhaps it is punishment for what they can consider compaining. It reminds me of a Star wars robot chicken skit involving Darth Vader and Lando. Ill let anyone curious look it up so there is no suspicion of a troll link.

[Anewie]

sig pretty much sums up my feelings on the devs response...

do not want.

[detlef]

I HAVE ALTERED THE DEAL. PRAY I DON'T ALTER IT ANY FURTHER.

[Zinato]

There was something I forget to mention before. The climbs aren't entirely unwanted now, several of the NMs drop great/valuable items, the catch? No one is willing to spend 100 stones or even a few doing a full climb for a drop that doesn't come even close to Bodys. (and also doing a t1-t4 worth of stones simply for a single kill of whichever mob is useful, not always appealing) 1/100 for tefnut wand (buyable) or 1/100 Heka, HQ dagger or magna gauntlets (buyable) oh the choices. (and they were even so kind as to put that fact in stone drop rates are the same in ALL chapters)

Watch this be read as "please make Tefnut r/x so i have a reason to help others get wins" (FYI that is not what is means)

[Runespider]

I am fairly sure all I got from that response is, Players are obtaining drops faster then we anticipated we will be making adjustments to reduce the rate the rare items drop.

Yeah the drop system is horrible but a lot of people are still getting top tier drops too quick, more than they planned. Next update might just kill VW completely, it's already pretty horrible.

VW is actualy quite a success even though the drop rates are horrible, as such it makes sense to decrease drop rates asap to keep people doing it long term.

Not a suprise with this current dev team but still kinda sad. Oh well.

[Anewie]

anyone who compares this to kings needs to cancel their account, burn their xi discs and toss their pc/ps3/xbox out the window.

VW is a cakewalk compared to what aspid,nid,kb were in 2005...

[Nynja]

Yeah the drop system is horrible but a lot of people are still getting top tier drops too quick, more than they planned. Next update might just kill VW completely, it's already pretty horrible.

VW is actualy quite a success even though the drop rates are horrible, as such it makes sense to decrease drop rates asap to keep people doing it long term.

Not a suprise with this current dev team but still kinda sad. Oh well.

You live in a city situated on an island. If you want to drive off the island for whatever reason, theres only one bridge off the island. The bridge has one lane both ways. People complain about possibly expanding the bridge to have 3 lanes both ways, or to add a secondary bridge that leads to another part off the island. City says "no"...
Everyone is clearly upset, because they get stuck on this bridge for over an hour, but its the only way to get their cars out of the city. Because the bridge is being used, its a success?

[FrankReynolds]

You live in a city situated on an island. If you want to drive off the island for whatever reason, theres only one bridge off the island. The bridge has one lane both ways. People complain about possibly expanding the bridge to have 3 lanes both ways, or to add a secondary bridge that leads to another part off the island. City says "no"...
Everyone is clearly upset, because they get stuck on this bridge for over an hour, but its the only way to get their cars out of the city. Because the bridge is being used, its a success?

Writing this from my laptop while sitting in commute traffic on a bridge right now. This is not a success :/

[Runespider]

You live in a city situated on an island. If you want to drive off the island for whatever reason, theres only one bridge off the island. The bridge has one lane both ways. People complain about possibly expanding the bridge to have 3 lanes both ways, or to add a secondary bridge that leads to another part off the island. City says "no"...
Everyone is clearly upset, because they get stuck on this bridge for over an hour, but its the only way to get their cars out of the city. Because the bridge is being used, its a success?

It's a success because although we all hate it and are angry about it we still all do it. I can't get any drops in massive amounts of runs, it makes me angry but I still do it..same for others. In that regard it's a success because it's the worst of a skinner box system which is very cheaply made but makes us invest mass amounts of time.

If a dev can make cheap content which is custom made to make you do it for a long long time but still get you to do it regular then they are happy, they don't care if it makes us angry as long as we do it. Salvage was a prime example. We are just back to old ways and we better get used to it, things ain't gonna get better.

They know how angry we are about this and they basically just said "screw you" so best to get used to it.

[Falseliberty]

so let me get this straight instead of fixing anything they gonna nerf temps and help lazy people catch up?

Log Watch just gets more and more awesome

[Zinato]

That is the thing though, What is to catch up? I personally wonder the reasoning for letting anyone do any VW and get the full benefit. (minus teleports with many of are same as OP/tele/recall/campaign warp/abyssea anyway) They get drops (at what we believe to be an equal rate, wouldn't it be hilarious though if the reason they say loot isn't an issue is its higher rates from being on that teir?) they get KI (atmacite/periapt) and they get exp/cruor (the new currency) If I were to make a bet id say that is more of an issue then lack of useful drops. Seeing as nearly EVERY VW run i do there has to be a few people taking the middle of nowhere back alleys to get to the rift. (this even happens on nation runs T1-4, do they just not want to get climb credit? and yes everyone always tells them where VW npcs are they just dont have warp access

Not 20 seconds are i hit submit, I thought perhaps that IS the answer. Force fights to have an augmented drop rate for those with the climb. Higher drop rates, more people doing climbs, and people have to do the fights they don't want to do for what they do want to do (IE timesink)

[Nynja]

It's a success because although we all hate it and are angry about it we still all do it. I can't get any drops in massive amounts of runs, it makes me angry but I still do it..same for others. In that regard it's a success because it's the worst of a skinner box system which is very cheaply made but makes us invest mass amounts of time.

I'm stunned...ok, lets try this again.

You need a job, you're looking for work. You look, you look, and you look some more...and the only job you manage to get is voluntary work with with a 1/300 chance at getting upgraded to wage work. But hey, you got a job, success?

[hideka]

Thanks so much for all the feedback regarding Voidwatch.
I have a couple responses to some of the suggestions and opinions that have been stated. (Sorry it’s a bit long)


Drop rates of equipment for each chapter
There are no drop rate differences for equipment in chapter 1, 2, or 3. Each has the same amount of rarity and there are no differences between chapters.


1) we dont care that the droprates are static, we care that the drop rates are horrid.
2) implement a method that increases your chance to obtain an item during your following runs if you destroy your rewards VS obtaining them. make it so the effect stacks, and is erased when you obtain a High quality item (armor weapon or pouch).



Bonuses for players who spawn the monster
It would be possible to look into this if other players who pay the costs received the same effects, for example, receiving the same benefits when using the maximum amount of cells. On the other hand, we are not thinking about offering special benefits just for spawning the monster. In extreme cases, only the player spawning the monster would consume Voidstones and continuous battles could take place which would eliminate the good point of Voidwatch where each member receives their own reward and would also develop long claim times.


i think providing a bonus to everyone who has their VW quests done up to that point (having the ability to pop that NM) should just recieve a flat out bonus to exp and cuor (like +20%) this would be more agreeable imo



Cruor needed for atmacite upgrades
For the amount of cruor needed to upgrade atmacites, the idea was not to acquire these beforehand in Abyssea, but to upgrade atmacites while receiving cruor as rewards for Voidwatch. In order to save cruor, it’s possible to increase the amount gained by using cells or participate in battles without spending Voidstones just for cruor rewards.
[/list]

yea, getting what, 7000 cruor for not using a voidstone? yea that makes a whole lot of sense. thats totaly a fast way to build cuor. the curor costs on Atmacites is retarded. please lower them now that people have burned off their massive curor banks from abyssea spam. kthxbi.




Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.

no, people dont build partys like this, they build parties in which having an emperyan or a relic is a requirement, as anyone who does not have time invested into one of these weapons is likely to be a massive detriment to the party, and incapable of participating effectively. instead of worrying about this bullcrap, how bout revamping the BLU procs like you said you were almost two updates ago. having to set 50-60 points of proc spells makes blu almost worthless, so were forced to only set 1-2 sets of proc spells so we can atleast retain some utility. reduce it to 1-2 proc spells per element.



Weakness revamps
In order to create battles that can be completed without relying on temporary items, we are planning to revamp weaknesses as well as adjust the distribution of temporary items.

Also, in regards to cases where the weakness is difficult or due to your setup you cannot exploit it even though you determined what it is, we are planning to perform appropriate adjustments. Though we have already received quite a bit of feedback on weakness, if there are any others you would like us to look into please submit your feedback.

yes, no more white procs on jobs that arent in your party, i think a retarded rock would have had the foresight to implement this from day one.



Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.


give the alliance leader the option to destroy the chest after 120 seconds and/or everyone has viewed their rewards.



Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.

Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.
[/list]
Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback.
in regards to loot: Please put in the option to transfer your chest to party spoils, this way we can stop having people get 2-3 tocis harnesses(just an example) while others go without for 50+ runs.

[Runespider]

You need a job, you're looking for work. You look, you look, and you look some more...and the only job you manage to get is voluntary work with with a 1/300 chance at getting upgraded to wage work. But hey, you got a job, success?

From an empoyers pov of course, you will work for minimum wage and feel lucky that you got that job. The employer doesn't care if you're happy.

An event where they can make you do it even though it's horrible is a success to them. It's crap to us but we still do it anyway, WoE is a failure because it's horrible and nobody does it, VW is a success because it's horrible but a large number of us still do it.

[SpankWustler]

Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.

The joke is on you this time, Development Bros. Tangibly decreasing things like "no chance", "nothing", and "no hope" will be a real challenge.


Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.


Perhaps "destroying nothing" is an important step to reaching the final stages of enlightenment and this may help people reincarnate to a higher plane. My very subtle mind looks forward to this addition.

[Creelo]

The truth is that SE intentionally made VW this way (ridiculous low drop rate) to keep us playing the game w/o the need for them to add new content soon. They cant say that officially so they will keep "listening" a feedback and focus on everything else beside fair reward system.

I really hate how true this statement is.

[Frost]

Could you imagine if SE was in charge of an army?

Soldier: "Help I've been shot! Get a Medic!"

SE: "We've listened to your input and have decided to send the medics to plant flowers on the battlefield."

SE: "Additionally we've seen the damage bullets do to our troops so we've replaced all your guns' ammunition with barbecue tongs and wood chips."

[Sparthos]

From an empoyers pov of course, you will work for minimum wage and feel lucky that you got that job. The employer doesn't care if you're happy.

An event where they can make you do it even though it's horrible is a success to them. It's crap to us but we still do it anyway, WoE is a failure because it's horrible and nobody does it, VW is a success because it's horrible but a large number of us still do it.

What I've got from your posts is that the base is being beaten in the crotch with a pipe yet they continue to do the event anyway because there are some drops worth chasing.

Question is... for how long? Obsession only goes so far and unlike kings you're never progressing in Voidwatch unless you get the drops. This is starting to look like VNMs/Yilbegan '09 XI where people started to burn off once it looked like the game was on the skids. How long will people stick around this time? Level 99 is here and it's a pile of crap coupled with backlogged updates due to a skeleton dev team - underwhelming to say the least.

Unless the Last Stand is released in March and Nyzul II manages to blow the load of the base, XI is in a bad spot and this time Abyssea isn't around to pique interest and bring life back to the streets of Port AFK.

[Cream_Soda]

Good thing I've put off WoTG for so long. Time to catch up on the storyline and give me something that'll actually be worth my time to do.

[Zinato]

What I've got from your posts is that the base is being beaten in the crotch with a pipe.

Not as bad as Gamestop.

[Falseliberty]

mmmm i do have 1 plea thru all this and its not really a VW thing more a FFXI thing. Something thats not tanaka's fault for a change.

people keep mentioning this skeleton crew dev team is working with, why? dont this game still have like 200k subcriptions at least atm? by far still one of there biggest money makers why the hell is SE treating long time paying customers like this.

for the love of fucking god HIRE MORE GODDAM PEOPLE

[blowfin]

Perhaps "destroying nothing" is an important step to reaching the final stages of enlightenment and this may help people reincarnate to a higher plane. My very subtle mind looks forward to this addition.

Ah yes, we are missing the deep phliosophical implications of voidwatch. I think the secret to dividing by zero may also be hidden inside there somewhere.

[Alderin]

I will be brutally honest... The thought of kaggen makes me bash my head against a wall. It is NOT fun when the alliance leader (at the moment myself), has done over 500x Kaggens and still not seen a body.. While I have witnessed first hand people going 1/4 on body drop rate.

The alliance leader / popper needs some form of higher reward system - as the effort that they have put into putting together a run far exceeds any player's participation in the actual fight itself.

SE you are ignoring the fact that it potentially takes at minimum of 30mins to 1hr just to get enough people for a single VW run. If that isn't deserving of a higher drop rate for alliance leader / popper then I don't know what is.

The drop system on the legendary bodies at the moment is at best completely random, and is unfair to those of us who put in the extra effort to shout for these runs. I for one have just about given up.


*edit* I will be one to say "destroying" the rare/ex items will be a waste of dev team time. I will speak for a lot of us here - most of us do not bother getting the logs/ores/ingots out of the chest. This will not decrease the time the chest hangs around.

[Nynja]

From an empoyers pov of course, you will work for minimum wage and feel lucky that you got that job. The employer doesn't care if you're happy.

Except in my previous analogy, the employer would be replaced with "Square Enix" and you represents the playerbase.

glad you're understanding it.


people keep mentioning this skeleton crew dev team is working with, why? dont this game still have like 200k subcriptions at least atm? by far still one of there biggest money makers why the hell is SE treating long time paying customers like this.

Because they're still busy trying to save FFXIV

[Insaniac]

I will be brutally honest... The thought of kaggen makes me bash my head against a wall. It is NOT fun when the alliance leader (at the moment myself), has done over 500x Kaggens and still not seen a body.. While I have witnessed first hand people going 1/4 on body drop rate.

The alliance leader / popper needs some form of higher reward system - as the effort that they have put into putting together a run far exceeds any player's participation in the actual fight itself.

SE you are ignoring the fact that it potentially takes at minimum of 30mins to 1hr just to get enough people for a single VW run. If that isn't deserving of a higher drop rate for alliance leader / popper then I don't know what is.

The drop system on the legendary bodies at the moment is at best completely random, and is unfair to those of us who put in the extra effort to shout for these runs. I for one have just about given up.


*edit* I will be one to say "destroying" the rare/ex items will be a waste of dev team time. I will speak for a lot of us here - most of us do not bother getting the logs/ores/ingots out of the chest. This will not decrease the time the chest hangs around.
While I understand your frustration the answer is not better drop rates for the popper. It's a progression system where someone willing to put the effort into setting up runs every day will be rewarded with 100% certainty after a fair amount of time. Higher drop rates for the popper would just result in 150 separate VW shouts with no one willing to join your group and have a lower drop rate than you. Not to mention the ninja pops =).

[Alderin]

While I understand your frustration the answer is not better drop rates for the popper. It's a progression system where someone willing to put the effort into setting up runs every day will be rewarded with 100% certainty after a fair amount of time. Higher drop rates for the popper would just result in 150 separate VW shouts with no one willing to join your group and have a lower drop rate than you. Not to mention the ninja pops =).

I never said that.

I believe that effort does not equal reward in this case. It goes both ways - 95% of the server won't shout and will wait for the 2 same people on the whole server to make a VW group so they don't have to put in any effort to reap the rewards.

The alliance leader / popper should receive an ENHANCED drop rate or some form of beneficial reward otherwise once these 1 or 2 people finally get the body or get sick of organising a group (like I am about to be) - that NM will be dead along with the T4 home nations.

But yes damn right I think that the people that are setting up these groups should have a 100% certainty after enough times.. Going on 500+ Kaggens (most of which I have set up myself) while others get it in a couple of runs is just beyond rediculous.

Last run, a BLU who had no jobs levelled that could equip this - and was his first 2x Kaggen runs got the body... How is that balance?

[Dragoy]

I'm only glad I still haven't wasted my time with this.

There's just too much /random; it's one of the most annoying things to actually get rare loot, but it's what you already have, or don't need, and/or can't even give to your stranger!
Random is not fun, even if it may occasionally be funny.

I tried Salvage for the first time yesterday, and I think I would rather collect 30,000 pieces of Alexandrite, even if it took 400-600 days (earth-time). And that is beyond insane, but still, it seems more fun than this.

Seriously.

>.>
<.<
v.v

As a side-note, no, I don't think Mythics or Relics are worth in any way, any of what they require, at all, even remotely.
So yeah, Voidwatch...

/sigh

[Cahlum]

Devs need to understand that their vision of the game should have ended in 2004, players vision is far more important. If we don't like something, and their are countless threads on this forum alone all echoing the same thing, change the retarded loot system, then they need to change it asap.

This is a PR disaster for them but alas they won't listen to anything except subscriber numbers dropping. Perhaps after Q2 figures are in they'll fire tanaka again.

[Maacha]

for the love of fucking god HIRE MORE GODDAM PEOPLE

They were hiring back in October, according to this page: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/16130-%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%82%A4%E3%83%8A%E3%83%AB%E3%83%95%E3%82%A1%E3%83%B3%E3%82%BF%E3%82%B8%E3%83%BCXI%E3%81%A7%E3%81%AF%E7%8F%BE%E5%9C%A8%E3%83%90%E3%83%88%E3%83%AB%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%83%8A%E3%83%BC%E3%82%92%E5%8B%9F%E9%9B%86%E3%81%97%E3%81%A6%E3%81%84%E3%81%BE%E3%81%99%EF%BC%81

Looks like either they hired someone or gave up though, seems as if it's closed now. My husband is a computer programmer and I told him he should apply, but the job in only in Tokyo (Shinjuku) and we live in Seoul ^^; I doubt it'd pay enough for us to have moved there.

[Vortex]

Devs need to understand that their vision of the game should have ended in 2004, players vision is far more important. If we don't like something, and their are countless threads on this forum alone all echoing the same thing, change the retarded loot system, then they need to change it asap.

This is a PR disaster for them but alas they won't listen to anything except subscriber numbers dropping. Perhaps after Q2 figures are in they'll fire tanaka again.

It's a double edged sword, if they only take fan base into account, all you will need to do is talk to 1 npc for all your rare/ex items, that are 2 steps outside your house, 1 mob will level you from 1-99 and SAM will get zantestuken as a WS

of course thier vision of this game is very flawed but listening only to players won't help either, it needs both sides. but they are being stubborn.

[Runespider]

I believe that effort does not equal reward in this case. It goes both ways - 95% of the server won't shout and will wait for the 2 same people on the whole server to make a VW group so they don't have to put in any effort to reap the rewards.

The alliance leader / popper should receive an ENHANCED drop rate or some form of beneficial reward otherwise once these 1 or 2 people finally get the body or get sick of organising a group (like I am about to be) - that NM will be dead along with the T4 home nations.

Square don't care about effort, only that you do it as long as possible and give just enough reward to keep you plugging away (some of us, like you and me need no reward at all it seems and although you say you are going to give up we both know you won't after putting up with it for 500kills), infact they would reward the more hardcore players less because those are the kinds of players you need to string along more. It's in their intrest to reward casual players easier than hardcore.


95% of the server won't shout and will wait for the 2 same people on the whole server to make a VW group so they don't have to put in any effort to reap the rewards.

You said yourself the reason they won't give the alliance leader a greater chance, they are the only ones that build groups for it. Once they get the drops they won't build them anymore and nobody will do VW. As a dev that's bad for pug content so why would they speed up it's demise? What you are asking for will NEVER happen, it's counter productive.

I don't think VW is completely random either, there maybe some system where the more you do it the less the drop rates get or something. I understand random but the players that do it the most seem to get the least reward and knowing Square they made it that way on purpose in some way.

The message this reply gives is that they aren't going to change it for a long time, they like we keep spamming it and if anything they want to make it harder to get them, not easier. If you do VW just keep plugging away but don't hope for positive changes because they aren't going to happen.


Devs need to understand that their vision of the game should have ended in 2004, players vision is far more important. If we don't like something, and their are countless threads on this forum alone all echoing the same thing, change the retarded loot system, then they need to change it asap.

This is a PR disaster for them but alas they won't listen to anything except subscriber numbers dropping. Perhaps after Q2 figures are in they'll fire tanaka again.

They know what they are doing sadly, VW was incredibly cheap content. It's just reused models from aby with reused proc systems all mashed together and we are doing it months and months after it was added due making sure we don't get rewarded and stop doing it.

I would think it more that Tanaka and crew are getting a pat on the back for this new event and loot system to me, keeping the rats running the cheaply made maze for a piece of cheese that you just can't get to.

[casual]

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but I would like an official response on this. The drop distribution from different VW NMs is not the same at all. From having seen well over 30 shiny bodies drop and a single HQ weapon (GK that went to a WHM mule), over at least 800 total fights with zilart having just about as many kills as jeuno, I'm fairly certain that the HQ weapon drop rates are much much lower than any other drop in VW. I don't know if this was intentional or not, but I only know of one person on my server who is not a JP that even has a coruscanti for example.

[Camiie]

It's a double edged sword, if they only take fan base into account, all you will need to do is talk to 1 npc for all your rare/ex items, that are 2 steps outside your house, 1 mob will level you from 1-99 and SAM will get zantestuken as a WS

of course thier vision of this game is very flawed but listening only to players won't help either, it needs both sides. but they are being stubborn.


It doesn't help to grossly exaggerate to make a point. No one is asking for test server moogles in the live game. That's patently ridiculous. What I'm asking for is exactly what the devs want, but don't seem to understand... BALANCE!!

[Finuve]

I figured it out

FFXIV == Trainwreck
FFXI != Trainwreck

FFXIV != FFXI

NO BALANCE

so

Make FFXI = Trainwreck
then FFXI == FFXIV

BALANCE!

[Runespider]

It's actually quite funny now how how hard they are trolling here honestly (maybe it really is to try piss us off so much we swap to 14? XD), they know the uproar about VW loot system and they make a statement saying nothing but things to make everyone more angry. "Oh you didn't like when we pee'd in your cheerios? hmm we took your feedback about this into consideration and decided to take a dump in them too, look forward to it in the next update!.....and keep giving us feedback so we can flip you the finger some more later on too, thx!!" Takes a real hardass like to know when your playerbase is this addicted and you can totally ignore them, he knows us too well I guess...worst case scenario they can probably think of pissing us off is we move to FF14 so they don't care what we think or how mad we get.

It's truely sad how much like FF14 this playing out, players outraging seems to make them dig their heels in and make it worse lol They do not like being told they are wrong, ever. I miss the last aby dev team so much :(

[Kitkat]

Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.


I fail to see how this is useful over an "Add to treasure pool" option. It is still something that person already has and is "hitting the floor" only further proving that this system doesn't promote fair distribution to the population. The drop rates are already low as it is, so why this system doesn't allow a player who already possesses the item to give it to open lot treasury over destroying it doesn't make sense.

Devs need to make a check system on loot distribution or give option to add to treasure pool. The current system hinders distribution to the population over promoting it because of this problem alone and destroying something you already have doesn't fix the problem.

[SNK]

I'm close to 600 Voidstones on my character right now and honestly I think it's best to just keep letting them build up instead of killing myself on this shitty lootsystem.

[Runespider]

I fail to see how this is useful over an "Add to treasure pool" option. It is still something that person already has and is "hitting the floor" only further proving that this system doesn't promote fair distribution to the population. The drop rates are already low as it is, so why this system doesn't allow a player who already possesses the item to give it to open lot treasury over destroying it doesn't make sense.

They don't want you to get the drops at all, it's already at the extreme to keep it away from you as much as possible without making people not do it at all. Adding to loot pool is about letting players attain their goals instead of work towards them, that's why they don't add it and never will till the content is outdated and there is a new carrot chase game added.


I'm close to 600 Voidstones on my character right now and honestly I think it's best to just keep letting them build up instead of killing myself on this shitty lootsystem.

For those of us that do VW regular there isn't a mass amount of other stuff to actually do anymore but yeah you are completely correct, avoid VW if you have other stuff to do It's rage inducing.

[Kitkat]

With a drop rate already on par (or worse) than key salvage pieces, there shouldn't be any reason for no check on propagation. Even if they did this there is no promise the additional randomization will cause it to load in another loot pool, but it would be better than seeing 1 person get 3 bodies over the course of 24 battles while no one else even gets 1. Doesn't change the carrot system, but at least people aren't going to be let down just as much seeing the same person get the drop they wanted for the 3rd time when they can only hold 1 to begin with.

[abbazabba]

Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback.
Have you discussed Adding heavy metal pouches or single heavy metals to any of the other tiers? I noticed you added rift sand to other tiers ( which makes mirrors rarer) but did not add heavy metal to any other tier. As more and more bosses are added it becomes hard to get people to do zilart T3 for pouches. While everyone still does akvan and kaggen the singles from them are only a trickle compared to when everyone spammed qillin and uptala. I hope in the future you add rift dross and rift cinder to other bosses as well.

Have you also discussed more sources of void dust and possibly lowering the void stone cool down? as I suggested in http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19134-Dev-1054-voidstones

[Chamaan]

You know, I have a couple of degrees in this language, and maybe it's because I've been awake for about ten minutes, but I'm having trouble following what you're saying.

One way to read what you wrote about changing the relation of item drops to hitting weaknesses is to assume that you're going to raise drop rates to be more independent of light levels. But oh no, we're not going to fall for that kind of silver lining thinking. You can't trick me again.

So that means they're going to make it so Red and Blue lights are nerfed to lower our incentive to hit staggers? Is that what I'm reading? Do they really think that's going to stop us from hitting the staggers and hitting the mob as hard as we can? Because a lot of the fights that's the only way to win. You can't sit there and tell us with a straight face that the devs could beat Botulus Rex or Ig-Alima with no temps, no staggers, and only 18 people. Dragging out the fights isn't going to make them more fun, it'll make them less fun. A short, intense fight is best because it's exciting.

The actual fights right now are perfect. They're impossible without proper preparation (building temps, fixing up your subs and gear sets for this one event) so there's some minor sense of building avatar strength. The fights are easy when you're lucky with staggers, and brutal when the winds are against you, so every fight can be a surprise.

What people are mad about is that the drop system sucks. And it's not like you remove the incentive to do VW by letting us have our Toci's and stuff at 2% drop rate instead of .002%. I've made millions off plates alone, plus gear drops (less frequent), so what's up? We complain "It's too hard to get items," so your response is "We're going to make it harder to get items." What kind of drunken abusive father logic is that? Will you let me have a Mekira body if I get on the wrestling team? Dad? Daddy? Will you?

[Feliciaa]

Kind of funny that the topic of this thread is "Seriously, VW loot system..come on." Yet the only thing they mention about the terrible loot system is basically a "eh, I guess we might talk about the most important thing to players... maybe..."

Not try to bash this game but SWTOR is looking better and better each week. >.>

[Theytak]

Kind of funny that the topic of this thread is "Seriously, VW loot system..come on." Yet the only thing they mention about the terrible loot system is basically a "eh, I guess we might talk about the most important thing to players... maybe..."

Not try to bash this game but SWTOR is looking better and better each week. >.>

bought my goddamn copy last night. Once I finish the download (lol300kbpsDLspeed), I'm probably gonna be playing it for months

[Brolic]

Finally, we plan on discussing topics in regards the loot system in the future, so please continue submitting your feedback.

continue?

it's been the same requests from 99% of the people since day one, we aren't even addressing the completely shitty drop rates for the entirely stupid reasons. People are fine with that, all they\we have asked for is to be able to distribute your personal chest.

this has been going on for what? 5 updates

[Oscar71]

can we just have moar abyssea zones, running out of places to FC ; ;

[Nynja]

Adding to loot pool is about letting players attain their goals instead of work towards them, that's why they don't add it and never will till the content is outdated and there is a new carrot chase game added.


Last I checked, working towards something involves progression. If I kill Kaggen 200 times and have yet to see a body drop, I'm no closer to getting it than someone whos fighting Kaggen for the first time.

Undoubtedly, you'll say the same about Salvage drops, since killing QQTH 100 times doesnt make a Macha's Coat more likely to drop, however there is still SOME progression involved as atleast your group can say "you've committed the most to the group without getting anything, its yours" when it drops.

[saevel]

They don't want you to get the drops at all, it's already at the extreme to keep it away from you as much as possible without making people not do it at all. Adding to loot pool is about letting players attain their goals instead of work towards them, that's why they don't add it and never will till the content is outdated and there is a new carrot chase game added.



For those of us that do VW regular there isn't a mass amount of other stuff to actually do anymore but yeah you are completely correct, avoid VW if you have other stuff to do It's rage inducing.

That's why I'm not playing the game hardcore right now. I don't mind doing some VWNM fights for fun or getting wins, but I absolutely refuse to sink 100+ fights for a single item. I'm not falling for their trap. Otherwise I'm only really doing dyna to get my RDM / BLU +2 relic items.

[RalphTheGalka]

It's not so much the drop rate on one mob that's a problem. It's the drop rate on *56* mobs that's a problem, which turns Voidwatch into an organizational nightmare to plan events that aren't Kaggen/Qilin/Pil. Try asking people to go for an NM and everyone says they're either out of stones or saving them for Kaggen.

I mean what the heck did SE expect was going to happen when you add 56 NM with horrible drop rate and very limited stone recharge? Over 90% of the NMs are being ignored, and they plan on adding more tiers of it which are just as likely to get ignored as soon as they're beaten once for the clear.

[Anewie]

Most of you probably don't like me, but I'm gonna keep it real anyway.

The only reason they even bothered to respond was, it looks bad for business if there is a lengthy issue and they don't address it publically

Like other have said, they completley ignored what we were mainly concerned about. They might as well have no responded at all, except if they don't respond, it gives us the impression they are ignoring us.

Thing is, even with that response, I would say they're ignoring us anyway.

I stand by what I said earlier, in that SE wants you, me, and all our friends, family and ls members to work as long, and hard as possible for the best drops. They wanna drag us out for 500 VW fights and 1 years worth of content. Why? So they can continue to make money without having to spend actual time on making new content because we got out stuff.

In the past when SE did this, we just stopped caring and played the content we enjoyed (which is probably best, because I highly doubt VW is what is standing between people and leaving the game. If so... It's probably best you quit, cause you're gonna be mad a LONG TIME, lol.) This is what me and my friends do.

Or, there will be a steady decline in subs until another server merge is announced. People quitting are most likely displeased with the direction of the game. I don't think more than an irrelevant margin of people will quit over VW loot, but I do know one thing...

If the next event has a similar drop system, all HELL will break lose and SE will be sorry.

[Cowardlybabooon]

I vote for harder mobs, less temps, and a straight old school loot system. Bring back HNMLS without the camping.

[Anewie]

also, in case no one has seen it

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/19469-Smaller-subscription-fees-for-smaller-dev-team?p=260624#post260624

I personally think thats a great suggestion. Why are we paying the sub fee for a small 3 man dev team that shoots out filler content?

Game should be cheaper tbh.

[Dreamin]

Something that needs to be clear and I have a funny feeling that it is the big mis-understanding between what the Dev is consider drop rate and what the player bases are called drop rate. I think as a whole, we need to address it as the drop system.

To the DEV, the drop rate is probably 1% on ra/ex item per NM (I pull this 1% out of thin air, but can subsitute the appropriate number in here if anyone wants because this number as long as it is not a significant number becomes meaningless). However, something that I dont know if the DEV understoods or not (and right now I'm assuming that they somehow didn't understood it), is that there's ONLY 1/18 of the chance of any one single person in getting that CHEST that contains that 1% ra/ex item. So, in essence, the EFFECTIVE drop rate of any one person in ever getting this 1% ra/ex item is 1% * 1/18 which is equal to roughly 0.056%. (If we were to subsitute the 1% with a 5%, the effective rate of anyone getting that idea is still only 0.278%).

So, Camata, it's NOT the drop rate per NM of the top tier ra/ex that is the issue. The issue is the drop system whereby a completely randomization of 1/18 which drops whatever the effective rate of anyone ever getting the item to the ridiculously low effective value.

Now, clearly I have made many assumptions such as: there's only 1 top ra/ex drop possible per NM fight, the drop rate per NM fight is only 1% and that there's always 18 chests (which wouldn't be true if you have less ppl, which would effectively bump up the effective drop rate).

But the point I'm trying to make after all these rambling is that the drop SYSTEM such as something like this becomes a PURE luck of the person and nothing else really matters. If you really want to reward users based on their effort, this system is need of a major overhaul.

Stick to a 1% drop rate per NM fight if you want but make it so that there's not a 1/18 multiplier after that please.

[Anza]

It's just shocking to me to see such consensus among the players. Even on things that the community predominantly feels a certain way about, there's nearly always SOME dissenters. I am seeing no legitimate arguments for the minority here - EVERYONE agrees the VW drop system is atrocious. SE's response is to ignore the one concern people are screaming for and nerf a couple other aspects. Truly mind-blowing.

To me, VW is perhaps the biggest failure in FFXI's history. And the sad part is that it could be fixed with changes to the treasure system that S-E still insists is the BEST feature of the event. I know I'm not alone in avoiding VW completely, and I'm running out of other content. It's like they're begging me to hang it up.

These days it's pretty much Dyna only for me, farming currency and halfheartedly finishing up Relic +2 pieces that I'm not even sure why I'm bothering with. Other than that, finishing a few 99 elemental magian weapons and re-capping exp/merits. I'm not really interested in grinding 100 merits for a sidegrade WS, nor is that the least bit fun. Abyssea provided me a year and a half of great entertainment, but that's running out as I and my friends finish all of our Abyssea goals. I guess I'm holding out some little hope that the new Nyzul/Limbus content will be fun, since those were probably my two favorite past events. It's hard to stick around during this era though.

[Istabpeople]

Yeah, so I know I'm a little late to the thread here. And to be honest I don't generally post much on the forums, I just follow the dev tracker hoping for good news (lol). But seriously, I'm getting pretty damn annoyed with the whole 'Keep that feedback coming!' which basically always translates into 'We'll just hear what we want to hear and misinterpret what you want' or 'We'll just completely ignore the root cause of your concern and distract you by telling you all about the shit we're doing that nobody asked for'.

That being said... this forum is working as intended.

[Brolic]

I vote for harder mobs, less temps, and a straight old school loot system. Bring back HNMLS without the camping.

hnms werent hard outside of the lowman timmy

[saevel]

I vote for harder mobs, less temps, and a straight old school loot system. Bring back HNMLS without the camping.

Umm have you actually fought the mobs in question?

"Harder" ... you do realize they can at any point in time just declare victory and kill your alliance off.

Their incredibly cheap, and will spam moves that will kill you in one to two hits while requiring constant damage to bring down. The only way to kill them is to spam temp items, otherwise they'll just kill everyone and despawn.

[Phafi]

i think providing a bonus to everyone who has their VW quests done up to that point (having the ability to pop that NM) should just recieve a flat out bonus to exp and cruor (like +20%) this would be more agreeable imo
maybe even a 20% bonus to ALL lights. Why should people that didn't put the progression work in have the same chance at drops? (excluding the bonus gained from periapts of glory and concentration)

[Raksha]

maybe even a 20% bonus to ALL lights. Why should people that didn't put the progression work in have the same chance at drops? (excluding the bonus gained from periapts of glory and concentration)


1) ppl would be less likely to join your shout run if they got nerfed drops
2) 20% bonus to lights lololololololol

[Neisan_Quetz]

Umm have you actually fought the mobs in question?

"Harder" ... you do realize they can at any point in time just declare victory and kill your alliance off.

Their incredibly cheap, and will spam moves that will kill you in one to two hits while requiring constant damage to bring down. The only way to kill them is to spam temp items, otherwise they'll just kill everyone and despawn.

Build a better DT set.

[Gokku]

Build a better DT set.

this... this 1000x's over
ive had T3 jeuno fights with Ochain plds who die and i had to tank on monk because with an 0chan you dont need macros or gear swaps or PDT /DT /MDT sets AMIRIGHT GUYS!

[Neisan_Quetz]

I actually had to go back and find Proth's last post in this thread and you still make no fucking sense.

[Zinato]

I few things I've been thinking about that I feel should be considered



Weaknesses and rewards
Since exploiting a monsters weakness is directly linked to the rewards, it seems like players are focusing on creating parties that can quickly defeat monsters whose weaknesses can be exploited easily. As we would like players to utilize weaknesses as an element of strategy, we would also like players to have fun on a larger scale, so we will be looking into making it so that the connection between exploiting weaknesses and the rewards received are not too strong.


In terms of obtaining lights the EV trigger has made a large difference. What I am worried about is how reducing weakness need will affect jobs used for the event. Players always work to the most effective strategy. Be that merit party jobs, pup for CoP 8-3, the 7 jobs used in abyssea, SAM tanks for taimat. The problem here is jobs like rdm and sch are over shadowed by BLM and WHM (there is ALWAYS a best option, perfect balance does not exist in a world with variation) Point being without need to proc many jobs will get the cold shoulder just as they did in abyssea. WHM for healing, BLM for nukes, SAM for DD and so on, people only settle for less when they must and with most VW runs being shouted for there is no reason to settle. Point being VW is one of the few events that finally uses most jobs evenly, even if only due to procs, removing or lessening procs will serve to alienate jobs once again.



Subsequent follow-ups
Depending on the route/monster (also depending on players), they are becoming split into popular/unpopular, so we will be continuing to find ways to make it so it will be easy for players that take on these routes later to gather party members.

Also for players that have already cleared these routes, there are already benefits for them to re-do them, such as being able to participate without spending Voidstones and receiving cruor/XP rewards; however, since we feel this isn’t enough, we will be looking into other benefits to participate in fights that have already been completed.


The reason they are being split isn't due to lack of rewards. The reason for the split is because of the strain put not only on personal stones but the servers overall stock as well. People want items from specific fights and funnel all their resources into those fights. (this is partially due to drop rates, If someone spends 500 stones getting one item they want most, it should be no surprise they don't do any other fight since they need every stone they can get)

Lets take for example if Toci's was added to Hahava to improve fights against him. All that would serve to do is make Hahava popular (since Pil sucks) but wouldnt help in more T1-T4 being done. If you add Toci's to all Sandy VWNM players will just fight T1 until they get it. The point I wish to make is the same as before, players do what is most effective. They pick an item and do what they can to obtain it. If you forced players to climb the Tiers to get better drop rate/participate in higher tiers you would see everyone make the climb and never go back. If you place high tier rewards in earlier tiers players wont seek to climb higher.

What I want to show with all of this is as long as stones are limited (and they are regardless of if they can be purchased) players have no incentive to waste what they have on fights that dont benefit them. EXP/Cruor of any amount is not incentive as both drop in all tiers. Gear/upgrade drops are not incentive either as assuming they do not drop in all VW fights (even if they did players would just move to the easier/faster fights) players would still just circle the fights they desire drops from.

You may already have considered what I've said if so I'm simply reminding of these things. I'm not saying a solution can't be found I'm saying please don't start making changes without first thinking them through. (I feel some things in the past have suffered for this reason)

[Insaniac]

Most high school educated players could fix VW within 15 minutes of walking into the SE offices. There's no way the devs are that dumb. They know how it could be turned into a wildly successful and enjoyed event but if they do that it won't be a 3 year time sink. As long as people log on to do it, even if they hate every second of it, they will never change the loot system. At least not until they introduce some more time sinks. The thing they are dumb enough to do it seems is make the only event for a lot of people to do, a soul crushing crap fest.

[Zinato]

Perfect example of what I was talking about, my alliance is 13/18 for T5 progression having shouted for 30 minutes. A Pil x8 shout comes up, not 3 minutes later my group is disbanding because 7 members including the leader would rather farm Toci's then do progression.

[Runespider]

Build a better DT set.

This is pug content, you can guarantee most of the DD won't have a DT set that's any good and you need to kill this stuff in 30 mins, so you can't be timid. When they nerf temps your DD will be hitting the floor constantly and your mages will quickly run out of MP curing the sponges, this is just talking of the last update VW nms here. Try the new T6 jeuno fights with nerfed temps and see how your DT sets go. They will wipe the floor with you.

VW isn't a mistake, they know exactly what they are doing and it was planned to perfection. They let you do it as much as you want because they know there is very little else in the game right now, they make the drops blingy to make you want them badly (even though their actual stats aren't that great to preserve balance) and they make them very rare and random yet make sure enough drop to keep your mind ticking away with "next kill will be the one".

VW is quite a sadistic event for the few that get tied up in it, they would of been better off not replying at all. All this did was stir up the hornets nest because what they replied with was worse than we could of imagined.

[Sparthos]

I doubt that statement about nerfing temps was for the current tiers of Voidwatch.

What it read like was that future Voidwatch would probably lay off the temps.

[Catsby]

I can't believe what I just read.

Shit, guys. Shit. This isn't 2005. You don't need 1% drop rates to keep people playing. Bumping that body piece to 10% - 15% wont immediately cap everyone on gear and cause them to quit out of boredom. People have several jobs to gear and tons of friends with several jobs to gear.

derp what if you could earn points from VW to spend on gear and earned titles from NMs? :/

[Insaniac]

I doubt that statement about nerfing temps was for the current tiers of Voidwatch.

What it read like was that future Voidwatch would probably lay off the temps.Agreed. The current T6s would be completely unwinnable without infinite temps.

[Prothscar]

Nah, you'd just be limited to rotations of SMNs for PD to simulate drinks and hoping that your buffed out the ass DDs are good enough to zerg down 1 NM every 2 hours before the PDs wear.

[Dragoy]

Heh, it basically seems not much if at all different from repeating those quests for Empyrean seals.
Repeat and time-sinks being the keywords, with little to no reward most of the times.

I agree that good items need work to be attained, but mindlessly repeating things, grinding if you will, isn't exactly fun and for the time being, Abyssea actually seems most balanced of all in that regard (not saying I exactly ever really liked Abyssea, or still do).

Funny that. ^^;

[Ravenmore]

I seen VW for what it was when they released it, I refuse to bother with it. Way I see it if a side-grade is only going to be 1 to 5% better the event it comes from should only be 1-5% more annoying.

[saevel]

I seen VW for what it was when they released it, I refuse to bother with it. Way I see it if a side-grade is only going to be 1 to 5% better the event it comes from should only be 1-5% more annoying.


Well the fights are kinda cool and fun the first few times you do em. They get bland after a dozen or so though. I do them because I got really tired of killing birds / worms / ect.. mindlessly with Leach's for XP. I'm not stressing on the drops, if I get them great, else I'm selling stuff to NPC or AH for gil. For me it's just something to do in between my dyna runs with friends.

[Runespider]

The more I read Camates post the mroe I think Hordcore hacked his acc and posted it, MAXIMUM TROLLING!

[Zinato]

I imagine at this point only time will tell, if players really feel this way it will wither and die and the players will get the last laugh. Personally i'm on T5 jeuno and T1 zilart (stupid dragon) once i get all KI and completion (yay teleports) ill stop doing it until the new ones come out. I also have no intrest in helping catch people up being that its generally PuG content, if I can get climbs so can my ls mates.

[Cahlum]

Empy weapon trial numbers are 3000 riftcinder/dross so don't worry guys everyone will be doing Voidwatch for many many years to come. You'll eventually get your athos tabards!

[Camiie]

The dev response to this reminds me of the response the CEO of Netflix gave regarding their DVD rental pricing fiasco. The point has been missed entirely.

[Camate]

Hey everyone!

Thank you for all of your feedback.

I would like to answer some of the questions that have been raised in response to the planned adjustments that I announced last week, as well as provide more detailed information on the battle adjustments that will be made.

Now, I am sure that some players are worried that this content will become more difficult to complete or that it will become more difficult to obtain loot, but I would like to assure you that none of the planned adjustments will be disadvantageous for the players.

Freezing issue in certain zones

A lot of players have been reporting freezing issues with Voidwatch in Fort Karugo-Narugo [S]. This issue is being addressed with the highest priority.

As a temporary fix, we plan on implementing a Voidwatch battle with the same content as Fort Karugo-Narugo [S] in a different area.

Battle adjustments



My opinion on Voidwatch is that it is content in which the player must proc weaknesses with the correct timing and use temporary items wisely.


That is exactly what our idea for Voidwatch was at the time of first implementation.

However, recently the issue of only tanks being able to get near the target due to powerful AoE spells has shifted the balance. As a result, players have become more dependent on temporary items and more often than not, players continually proc weaknesses in order to use temporary items. We agree with the players saying that “it’s ridiculous that one hit from an AoE spell kills me,” and this is the issue that we are placing a high priority on resolving.

As a future adjustment, we’re considering lowering the damage that non-targeted characters receive from AoE spells. We will re-evaluate the overall balance once we reduce the damage from AoE spells, but if further adjustments are necessary, we may look into the effects of weaknesses.

※With regard to battle balance, I would like to note that we do not assume that every player has the best armor, such as Aegis and Ochain, or Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Weapons. It is definitely advantageous to have the best gear, but we are making adjustments so that even players without the best gear are able to creatively finish all content.

The separation of exploiting weakness and loot

A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items.
As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot.

[Dreamin]

Hey everyone!

Thank you for all of your feedback.

I would like to answer some of the questions that have been raised in response to the planned adjustments that I announced last week, as well as provide more detailed information on the battle adjustments that will be made.

Now, I am sure that some players are worried that this content will become more difficult to complete or that it will become more difficult to obtain loot, but I would like to assure you that none of the planned adjustments will be disadvantageous for the players.

Freezing issue in certain zones

A lot of players have been reporting freezing issues with Voidwatch in Fort Karugo-Narugo [S]. This issue is being addressed with the highest priority.

As a temporary fix, we plan on implementing a Voidwatch battle with the same content as Fort Karugo-Narugo [S] in a different area.

Battle adjustments



That is exactly what our idea for Voidwatch was at the time of first implementation.

However, recently the issue of only tanks being able to get near the target due to powerful AoE spells has shifted the balance. As a result, players have become more dependent on temporary items and more often than not, players continually proc weaknesses in order to use temporary items. We agree with the players saying that “it’s ridiculous that one hit from an AoE spell kills me,” and this is the issue that we are placing a high priority on resolving.

As a future adjustment, we’re considering lowering the damage that non-targeted characters receive from AoE spells. We will re-evaluate the overall balance once we reduce the damage from AoE spells, but if further adjustments are necessary, we may look into the effects of weaknesses.

※With regard to battle balance, I would like to note that we do not assume that every player has the best armor, such as Aegis and Ochain, or Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Weapons. It is definitely advantageous to have the best gear, but we are making adjustments so that even players without the best gear are able to creatively finish all content.

The separation of exploiting weakness and loot

A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items.
As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot.

What about the BIGGEST issue that everyone has and that is the PURE RANDOMNESS of the drop of the ra/ex item? None of these really address that issue.

In fact the issues that you're addressing are for the most part, non-issues. Other than a few NMs in the latest chapter, most NMs are pretty easy to deal with. Proc'ing to cap Red (and Blue - ppl can agrue as to the real value for capping blue is just more logs/ore but that's also not as big as the main issue) isn't hard at all even for PUG. But the insanity of ppl at several hundred runs for the same NMs and not ever seeing the top tier ra/ex while seeing many new comers getting it on their 1st or 2nd or 3rd tries just completely takes any fun and joy in doing VW at all.

Please please please please please for the sanity of us, please make sure that the DEV team understands this pure random drop of these ra/ex item IS the biggest issue and is the most important issue that needs to be addressed. Not the ability to cap lights or clearing the fight or difficulting in clearing fight, etc.