Seriously, VW loot system..come on.

[saevel]

In fact the issues that you're addressing are for the most part, non-issues. Other than a few NMs in the latest chapter, most NMs are pretty easy to deal with. Proc'ing to cap Red (and Blue - ppl can agrue as to the real value for capping blue is just more logs/ore but that's also not as big as the main issue) isn't hard at all even for PUG. But the insanity of ppl at several hundred runs for the same NMs and not ever seeing the top tier ra/ex while seeing many new comers getting it on their 1st or 2nd or 3rd tries just completely takes any fun and joy in doing VW at all.

Bull sh!t. Earlier today just finished with lol-Pil. Leader couldn't find a BRD so we went in without one. First one was easy, second one half the procs were BRD at one point. Other half were PUP and BST procs. Ended up having to reset the fight as the entire alliance was weak due to him walking around one shoting everyone with his shield up. Third fight was easy, last fight we got to 25% easily but then temps started to run out and the procs were all stupid sh!t like PUP / BST / Wyvern and a HV Dark BLM (on a dark magic resistant monster). Barely won that last fight by sheer luck as a HV club appeared that we were able to use to restore fanatics and finish him off. The fights are 100% about what procs you get, you get shafted on them and the NM will just go around killing all your DD's, then your healers and black mages. If you get lucky and hit EV HQ HQ HQ then the NM will be dead in minutes.

What their talking about is adjusting the offensive power of the NMs so they don't go around instantly killing people or doing so much damage so fast that WHM's can't keep up. When SE flat out says something in plain language, vs hiding it in cryptic talk, then you know somethings up.


However, recently the issue of only tanks being able to get near the target due to powerful AoE spells has shifted the balance. As a result, players have become more dependent on temporary items and more often than not, players continually proc weaknesses in order to use temporary items. We agree with the players saying that “it’s ridiculous that one hit from an AoE spell kills me,” and this is the issue that we are placing a high priority on resolving.

We use procs to restore Fanatics / Bravers / Stalwarts so that we can not only kill it faster but survive the damage that it does. Most VWNM's are not hard if you hit the procs periodically, but once your temps runs out things start to turn nasty quickly and no amount of chest thumping fake bravado will change that.

[Tanakisnumberone]

u all dont c tanaka-sans brilliant vision. u dont deserve opinion in this matter.

[Helel]

Bull sh!t. Earlier today just finished with lol-Pil. Leader couldn't find a BRD so we went in without one. First one was easy, second one half the procs were BRD at one point. Other half were PUP and BST procs. Ended up having to reset the fight as the entire alliance was weak due to him walking around one shoting everyone with his shield up. Third fight was easy, last fight we got to 25% easily but then temps started to run out and the procs were all stupid sh!t like PUP / BST / Wyvern and a HV Dark BLM (on a dark magic resistant monster). Barely won that last fight by sheer luck as a HV club appeared that we were able to use to restore fanatics and finish him off. The fights are 100% about what procs you get, you get shafted on them and the NM will just go around killing all your DD's, then your healers and black mages. If you get lucky and hit EV HQ HQ HQ then the NM will be dead in minutes.

What their talking about is adjusting the offensive power of the NMs so they don't go around instantly killing people or doing so much damage so fast that WHM's can't keep up. When SE flat out says something in plain language, vs hiding it in cryptic talk, then you know somethings up.



We use procs to restore Fanatics / Bravers / Stalwarts so that we can not only kill it faster but survive the damage that it does. Most VWNM's are not hard if you hit the procs periodically, but once your temps runs out things start to turn nasty quickly and no amount of chest thumping fake bravado will change that.

Pil lol...? Seriously? Cor is your friend, or anything with requiescat. And you most definitely do not need temp items to survive against him.

Botulus Rex is the NM where you need fairly consistent procs to survive against him. Setting red and blue to cap is a cool idea for some of the lower tiers, but it doesn't really do anything for the higher tiers, where your lights will be capped anyway, just out of necessity. If anything, the constant hate reset/hate decay is the most annoying. I'm not sure why AoE spells are an issue...? (In response to Camate's post).

[Catsby]

Wow, seriously? 20+ pages of people bitching about the insane loot system and the response is regarding monster strengths. It's like yelling at a wall.

[Tamoa]

Wow, seriously? 20+ pages of people bitching about the insane loot system and the response is regarding monster strengths. It's like yelling at a wall.

Ain't that the truth. :(

Although, something isn't quite "balanced" (lol..) when a mob can one-shot you with a regular hit (no crit hit, not a tp move) without fanatics on. Looking at you Ig-Alima, with your 1.7k damage melee hit (through enhanced/capped stoneskin even)... However, being one-shot by aoe spells have never been an issue in my experience.

[Yarly]

The separation of exploiting weakness and loot

A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items.
As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot.

I like this idea. When can we see this happening? :D

[gears]

probly love SE for this sistem chest afther fight
hnmls bye bye boss who take all item bye
love SE for this XD
for me only change its the cost for upgrade the atma vw and put 2-3 atma and other change its litle raise for rare/ex item remember for defendin ring e kraken club its ugual rate 0,0001% XD

[Runespider]

They are never going to change the loot system or increase drop rates, they like it and they designed it to be the way it is. They know why peopel hate it, they also know that's the main reason people are still doing it.

They are making alterations to VW while totally ignoring the big issue people have, this shows they want it to be a long term event and doing anything to make drops better will be counter to that end.

I would hope that they would decrease the heavy metal plate trials at least (or add pouches to all the t3+ nms), this would encourage very many more people to start doing VW for plates or to do VW to sell them, right now very very few people bother. VW needs another reason to exist aside from chasing bodies with a 0.1 drop rate and the mass number of people with emps working on upgrading is a pretty good one. Emp trials at 1,500 plates/very limited supply scares off the vast majority of possible upgraders, this needs to be addressed and altered to around 250-300. That will at least make the event more long lasting and let people get the bodies before people stop doing it.

[Runespider]

Addition of option to destroy rewards
Currently, players need to receive all the rewards at once; however, since it is inconvenient when there is a rare item that you already possess and you are unable to receive the rewards, we will be making it possible to get rid of the item without obtaining it. We are planning to implement this during this week’s test server update.

If you aren't going to add an option to share the drops or pool them let us get a curor reward for destroying a good drop please, if I get a good drop that's wasted I want to at least get something out of it.

[Brolic]

Hey everyone!

Thank you for all of your feedback.

I would like to answer some of the questions that have been raised in response to the planned adjustments that I announced last week, as well as provide more detailed information on the battle adjustments that will be made.

Now, I am sure that some players are worried that this content will become more difficult to complete or that it will become more difficult to obtain loot, but I would like to assure you that none of the planned adjustments will be disadvantageous for the players.

Freezing issue in certain zones

A lot of players have been reporting freezing issues with Voidwatch in Fort Karugo-Narugo [S]. This issue is being addressed with the highest priority.

As a temporary fix, we plan on implementing a Voidwatch battle with the same content as Fort Karugo-Narugo [S] in a different area.

Battle adjustments



That is exactly what our idea for Voidwatch was at the time of first implementation.

However, recently the issue of only tanks being able to get near the target due to powerful AoE spells has shifted the balance. As a result, players have become more dependent on temporary items and more often than not, players continually proc weaknesses in order to use temporary items. We agree with the players saying that “it’s ridiculous that one hit from an AoE spell kills me,” and this is the issue that we are placing a high priority on resolving.

As a future adjustment, we’re considering lowering the damage that non-targeted characters receive from AoE spells. We will re-evaluate the overall balance once we reduce the damage from AoE spells, but if further adjustments are necessary, we may look into the effects of weaknesses.

※With regard to battle balance, I would like to note that we do not assume that every player has the best armor, such as Aegis and Ochain, or Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Weapons. It is definitely advantageous to have the best gear, but we are making adjustments so that even players without the best gear are able to creatively finish all content.

The separation of exploiting weakness and loot

A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items.
As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot.

thank you for answering questions that no one has asked, and not answering the one that everyone has.

[Sargent]

The separation of exploiting weakness and loot

A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items.
As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot.

Exploiting weakness was never an issue, the drop rates are still godawful when you cap lights. I've mentioned it before, but give us either the random distribution system (i.e. Voidwatch), or the low drop rates, not both.

[Raksha]

Thank you Camate for providing that translation.

If I understand correctly the discussion of drop rates and loot systems will come later. Please stress to the dev team that this is the most important issue that we care about.

[Quetzacoatl]

What about the BIGGEST issue that everyone has and that is the PURE RANDOMNESS of the drop of the ra/ex item? None of these really address that issue.

In fact the issues that you're addressing are for the most part, non-issues. Other than a few NMs in the latest chapter, most NMs are pretty easy to deal with. Proc'ing to cap Red (and Blue - ppl can agrue as to the real value for capping blue is just more logs/ore but that's also not as big as the main issue) isn't hard at all even for PUG. But the insanity of ppl at several hundred runs for the same NMs and not ever seeing the top tier ra/ex while seeing many new comers getting it on their 1st or 2nd or 3rd tries just completely takes any fun and joy in doing VW at all.

Please please please please please for the sanity of us, please make sure that the DEV team understands this pure random drop of these ra/ex item IS the biggest issue and is the most important issue that needs to be addressed. Not the ability to cap lights or clearing the fight or difficulting in clearing fight, etc.

Quoted for truth. All those updates to VW are all fine and dandy, but the big issue still remains at large.

One of our guys just came back to the game recently, and on the third Kaggen we did last night, he was able to get a Mekira Meikogai. I'm not complaining that he got it, by all means he is lucky to even have one as it will benefit his WAR and SAM. But this was his THIRD Kaggen run, comparing to every PLD or WAR in our shell who has went 0/60+, objectively speaking. That is BEYOND all random, out-of-this-world Odds.

There has got to be a point where something has to give for all those who have went beyond 100 tries doing any high-tier Voidwatch NM, not to see a single high-end piece of gear drop. At this point, a lotting system at least gave us hope of ever, ever, ever seeing a drop (Except Shinryu concerning Twilight Helm/Cloak/Mail, but that's an entirely different issue, the droprates on those should get a raise by now).

[Brolic]

Quoted for truth. All those updates to VW are all fine and dandy, but the big issue still remains at large.

One of our guys just came back to the game recently, and on the third Kaggen we did last night, he was able to get a Mekira Meikogai. I'm not complaining that he got it, by all means he is lucky to even have one as it will benefit his WAR and SAM. But this was his THIRD Kaggen run, comparing to every PLD or WAR in our shell who has went 0/60+, objectively speaking. That is BEYOND all random, out-of-this-world Odds.

There has got to be a point where something has to give for all those who have went beyond 100 tries doing any high-tier Voidwatch NM, not to see a single high-end piece of gear drop. At this point, a lotting system at least gave us hope of ever, ever, ever seeing a drop (Except Shinryu concerning Twilight Helm/Cloak/Mail, but that's an entirely different issue, the droprates on those should get a raise by now).

im fine with dumb luck, what i'm not fine with is our main whm having to take or a destroy a tocci's harness because she cant elect to give it to the alliance. Highly prized piece of gear that she will never equip\be able to equip.

[Dreamin]

There has got to be a point where something has to give for all those who have went beyond 100 tries doing any high-tier Voidwatch NM, not to see a single high-end piece of gear drop. At this point, a lotting system at least gave us hope of ever, ever, ever seeing a drop (Except Shinryu concerning Twilight Helm/Cloak/Mail, but that's an entirely different issue, the droprates on those should get a raise by now).

It's there. Most sane people has basically given up hope. And as the number of competent players decreased in doing these, it cascaded down with the other competent players. So basically less and less successful VW runs happened. I've went from doing several runs (4x per runs) per day (I've burned off all my CP and AN and 1/3 of all my Cruors for voiddusts and cells) to maybe 1 to 2 runs per week now. And as I get more and more Logs and Ores (and other crap), the less and less likely I'll be keep doing this. It's sad because most of the top tier NM fights can be fun. Just not fun and becomes just WORK and Boring work at that after your 200+ for fighting the same NM. It makes the game into work and I only do work if I get PAID in money.

[saevel]

Pil lol...? Seriously? Cor is your friend, or anything with requiescat. And you most definitely do not need temp items to survive against him.

Botulus Rex is the NM where you need fairly consistent procs to survive against him. Setting red and blue to cap is a cool idea for some of the lower tiers, but it doesn't really do anything for the higher tiers, where your lights will be capped anyway, just out of necessity. If anything, the constant hate reset/hate decay is the most annoying. I'm not sure why AoE spells are an issue...? (In response to Camate's post).

Again BULLSH!T.

Pil is easy if he's proced, once he's walking around he'll spam flank opening for 1~2K+ damage. Its guaranteed to one shot pretty much anyone near it. If your lucky you'll survive with a few hundred HP, but then he just use's it again or a -ja spell and your hosed. WHM's can't heal fast enough to sustain your HP, you will die, its only a matter of time.

And we had two CORs, both ended up double weakened halfway through the fight, QD become useless and that is when things started going south fast. Akvan has deathga, or just a cheap single target death, used to have Lv5 petrify but that's no longer an issue. Kaggan has a whole hoard of aoe moves, amnesia effect just to screw with your procing and his frontal slash attack that will hit anyone in front for 2K+. Later in the fight he can spam Death Prophet, which is one of the cheapest moves known. Trying to fight Kaggan without fanatics up for more then 10~15s will start to drain your WHM's MP pool, having 5~6 DD's doing this will deplete it rather quickly.

And those are just the lol Jeuno T3 VWNMs. Again easy to do if you keep them proced and / or keep fanatics up, absolute nightmares if you get screwed on procs.

And as Camate just said, it shouldn't require an Aegis / O.Chain PLD to tank them. It shouldn't require a bunch of Relic / Emp DD's in blinged out gear setups to kill the harder ones.

If you really want a lesson in humility, then go do the Bastok T4 Harpy without temps or procs, just to see how "easy" they are. She'll rip your face off with all her damn aoe high damage moves and status effects. At 95 we tried a PD zerg on her just for sh!ts, and were surprised at how damaging she could be. We got the win without any temps / procs but with over half the alliance dead. The windy T4 is similar, doing him without procs / fanatics is just asking for some pain. Arm Cannon will one shot a BLM and anyone standing nearby, he'll it'll one shot a COR or RNG too. Erradicator and it's weakness effects will make your super blinged out tanks nearly useless, and any DD nearby. Yet again if your procing him and spamming Fanatics then he's a joke, if you don't then he'll rip your face off.

[Glamdring]

there's a very simple solution to all these issues, but I think it's avoided to preserve the time-sinks. Make the system turn out 1 reward, period. Some type of currency or token or trophy that you then trade in to a specific NPC vendor to obtain the item you are actually after rather than the random R/EX piece that you'll just toss for inventory space reasons. If you want to really be merciful you can even make it a KI, like Dominion points or something; please make it "contribution-based", because people who continually AFK/leech SHOULD be penalized for being useless.

[ThaiChi]

There's a pretty big disparity in the drop rate of loot. While for some people it seems like the drop rates for things they want are similar to salvage drops circa 2007, others it seems like it's like dynamis circa 2012. It's completely inexplicable. I get that they don't want us to completely burn through the content like Abyssea, but oftentimes its infuriating not being able to get reward for participating in voidwatch from day one. But let's face it, FFXI in 2012 provides a whole lot of content, new and old. There's Neo-Dynamis that has put everyone on a relic craze, Sky being relevant again because of Synergy Augments, killable Absolute Virtue -- making Sea still viable to do. Hell I have to do campaign just to be able to keep a stock of voiddust. And while many have dismissed most ToAU content, the higher levels has given me and a small group of friends the drive to do Einherjar, and collect Alexandrite from Salvage in anticipation for Nyzul Isle Uncharted and eventually attempting to complete a Mythic Weapon. Point being: if the drop rates were raised to a reasonable rate, there's still a lot of things to do.

Over the past month I've joined in on several Voidwrought shouts and I still have nothing to show from partaking, and my Linkshell does it fairly regularly. Oftentimes a lot of my Linkshell mates are dismayed at how frequently we see a full pink DNC with a coruscanti or a notorious jerk on our server win out due to complete and utter luck. Yes, I am a little bit bitter, but at the same time I've witnessed the person hosting the pickup Voidwroughts go 1/395 on his Fazheluo Radiant mail. That's .25% -- a quarter of a whole percent, not to mention the 1185 Rubicund Cells, and 395 Voidstones/dusts that go into a that many fights. If it hasn't already been said.... The drop rates here are horrid. Destroy the item if we already have it? Sure, that's exactly what everyone here on the forum wants.... Makes you wonder why so many people are complaining.... /sarcasm

[Krashport]

There's a pretty big disparity in the drop rate of loot. While for some people it seems like the drop rates for things they want are similar to salvage drops circa 2007, others it seems like it's like dynamis circa 2012. It's completely inexplicable. I get that they don't want us to completely burn through the content like Abyssea, but oftentimes its infuriating not being able to get reward for participating in voidwatch from day one. But let's face it, FFXI in 2012 provides a whole lot of content, new and old. There's Neo-Dynamis that has put everyone on a relic craze, Sky being relevant again because of Synergy Augments, killable Absolute Virtue -- making Sea still viable to do. Hell I have to do campaign just to be able to keep a stock of voiddust. And while many have dismissed most ToAU content, the higher levels has given me and a small group of friends the drive to do Einherjar, and collect Alexandrite from Salvage in anticipation for Nyzul Isle Uncharted and eventually attempting to complete a Mythic Weapon. Point being: if the drop rates were raised to a reasonable rate, there's still a lot of things to do.

Over the past month I've joined in on several Voidwrought shouts and I still have nothing to show from partaking, and my Linkshell does it fairly regularly. Oftentimes a lot of my Linkshell mates are dismayed at how frequently we see a full pink DNC with a coruscanti or a notorious jerk on our server win out due to complete and utter luck. Yes, I am a little bit bitter, but at the same time I've witnessed the person hosting the pickup Voidwroughts go 1/395 on his Fazheluo Radiant mail. That's .25% -- a quarter of a whole percent, not to mention the 1185 Rubicund Cells, and 395 Voidstones/dusts that go into a that many fights. If it hasn't already been said.... The drop rates here are horrid. Destroy the item if we already have it? Sure, that's exactly what everyone here on the forum wants.... Makes you wonder why so many people are complaining.... /sarcasm

I always wondered, If FFXI never had a way to /check other members, Would people still cry and worry about what other people have and how lucky they are....

[Tsukino_Kaji]

※With regard to battle balance, I would like to note that we do not assume that every player has the best armor, such as Aegis and Ochain, or Relic/Mythic/Empyrean Weapons. It is definitely advantageous to have the best gear, but we are making adjustments so that even players without the best gear are able to creatively finish all content.This is the logic you need to aply to more content. More and more I'm seing new players who are litteraly kicked out of alliances before things are about to start because of simple things like, for example, a sam that doesn't have masamune.(This actualy has happened serval times.)

[Nynja]

This is the logic you need to aply to more content. More and more I'm seing new players who are litteraly kicked out of alliances before things are about to start because of simple things like, for example, a sam that doesn't have masamune.(This actualy has happened serval times.)

Thats cuz they should have tp bonus gkt...

[Camiie]

This is the logic you need to aply to more content. More and more I'm seing new players who are litteraly kicked out of alliances before things are about to start because of simple things like, for example, a sam that doesn't have masamune.(This actualy has happened serval times.)


It's sadly been a problem with MMOs in general for a long time. People don't want you unless you have the best gear and have already cleared the content. If you need something from it, you more than likely won't be wanted for it. I'll give credit to SE for not forcing you to need endgame gear to do endgame. Now if only our fellow players will follow the lead.

[Vivivivi]

Why not make an npc that you can trade logs to in exchange for some sort of points? xD

[Raksha]

Why not make an npc that you can trade logs to in exchange for some sort of points? xD

you can trade them to a vendor NPC for Gil points, does that count?

[SpankWustler]

Why not make an npc that you can trade logs to in exchange for some sort of points? xD

"Hello there! I'm Leopold the Log Logger! My family has a long legacy of logging logs in this very long log! I'm particularly interested in inter-dimensional logs as of late. Just lob a log at me so I can label and log the log in this lengthy log!

I'll reward you for your laborious labors with a certain amount of 'Lunatic's Lady Fingers' baked by my dear delusional grandmother who went invariably and incurably insane after logging her last log! They aren't edible, being made by a crazy person out of wood chips and fecal matter and such, but maybe you can trade them for the long-lost loot you've long been longing for!"

[Camate]

Howdy!

I would like to make an addition to a planned adjustment that was announced earlier.

The issue at hand is the highest priority issue that we would like to address first before we make any other adjustments. There are many other adjustments we would like to make, but if we make too many adjustments at once, the following issues may occur:



The balance is shifted too quickly, possibly making the game worse
It is difficult to see improvement because too many changes are made
An unexpected adverse effect occurs due to the changes overlapping


To avoid these problems, it would be best to plan adjustments in order based on priority and their effect.

In response to us making adjustments in stages, many of you may feel that we are not making enough adjustments, but we hope you understand that our plan is to continuously make adjustments.

Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.
　
Now, I will address some feedback that has been submitted.



I personally like the separation of weaknesses and loot, but I feel like this leads to players simply switching to their strongest jobs to finish content.


We understand your concern that players will simply switch to their strongest jobs due to the removal of the necessity to proc weaknesses and we’re carefully planning to address this issue.

In order to avoid content becoming monotonous, an idea we are looking into is not completely separating weakness and loot by increasing the maximum bonus attained through cells and other ascent items. As a result, if there are few players involved, using cells will replace having to proc weakness, and for larger parties, it would be possible to avoid paying the high cost for cells by procing weakness as usual.

We may discover some issues with the above proposal upon our extensive review, but we believe that if we completely separate weakness and loot, it is inevitable that players will lean toward using only their strongest jobs.

In order to allow creative freedom in battle, it is necessary to improve the effects of procing weakness, so that it is more enjoyable to use various tactics to proc weaknesses rather than resorting to using the strongest job available. This is a long term goal for us, so it is not possible to make this change all at once, but we will be taking steps one by one to achieve this goal.

Please let us know what you think.

[Zarchery]

I'm sure this sounds sadistic and kinda selfish, but as one who does not participate in Voidwatch, I like how lucrative selling Voiddust is.

While I don't know the system well enough to comment on the flaws, I do hope SE implements the changes to make it a more rewarding experience for those that do participate. I remember how horrendous Dynamis was in the old days, waiting month after month for my MNK relic armor to show up.

[Dreamin]

Howdy!

I would like to make an addition to a planned adjustment that was announced earlier.

The issue at hand is the highest priority issue that we would like to address first before we make any other adjustments. There are many other adjustments we would like to make, but if we make too many adjustments at once, the following issues may occur:




The balance is shifted too quickly, possibly making the game worse
It is difficult to see improvement because too many changes are made
An unexpected adverse effect occurs due to the changes overlapping



To avoid these problems, it would be best to plan adjustments in order based on priority and their effect.

In response to us making adjustments in stages, many of you may feel that we are not making enough adjustments, but we hope you understand that our plan is to continuously make adjustments.

Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.
　
Now, I will address some feedback that has been submitted.



We understand your concern that players will simply switch to their strongest jobs due to the removal of the necessity to proc weaknesses and we’re carefully planning to address this issue.

In order to avoid content becoming monotonous, an idea we are looking into is not completely separating weakness and loot by increasing the maximum bonus attained through cells and other ascent items. As a result, if there are few players involved, using cells will replace having to proc weakness, and for larger parties, it would be possible to avoid paying the high cost for cells by procing weakness as usual.

We may discover some issues with the above proposal upon our extensive review, but we believe that if we completely separate weakness and loot, it is inevitable that players will lean toward using only their strongest jobs.

In order to allow creative freedom in battle, it is necessary to improve the effects of procing weakness, so that it is more enjoyable to use various tactics to proc weaknesses rather than resorting to using the strongest job available. This is a long term goal for us, so it is not possible to make this change all at once, but we will be taking steps one by one to achieve this goal.

Please let us know what you think.

You're still NOT hearing what most people are saying. That is, Proc'ing for Weakness is NOT an issue. It's clear for those that are willing to spend the time in doing VW, getting cells and stones are not an issues. The BIG ISSUE that most players agreed here is the the current Loot System. This Insanely Random Drop matter is making it such that you have players who has been doing the same NM for several hundred times each time with full LIGHTS and TH and still getting only Logs and Ores.

Here are some suggestions:
1. Make it so that the player who has already received the RA/EX don't ever get it again. Items in the chest are generated on the server side already so it would not be hard at all to implement this. In this case, when an RA/EX that were supposed to go to the chest that a player has already acquired, make it so that it would go to another player.

or

2. Another idea is to instead of making it so that RA/EX item can only ever go to one person. Make it so that ANY item can be put into a community pool. So when a player received another RA/EX item, he can place it into a community pool where anyone that was in the alliance when the NM was popped can lot on them. This way, people who dc'ed mid fight can still possibly lot on this item. [This was one of the idea that has been expressed in here before].

or

3. Give us some sort of point system where after perhaps 100 or 200x successful killing of the same NM, you can choose to select 1 RA/EX item from his drop list. This will give the event the longevity that will be needed but at the same time still gives HOPE to the players that there will be light at the end of all their hard work. So worst case for any player if they're truly unlucky, after 100 or 200x fight of the same NM, they would at least received something in return. [Feel free to change number of successful fight from 100 or 200 to something that is reasonable. 100-200 is reasonable whereas 1500 would not be reasonable].


Other ideas?

[Taint2]

Howdy!

Please let us know what you think.



VW is a good event, the loot system is terrible. That is 100% of the issue.

The same mobs get killed over and over because thats what it takes to get the drop you want. Keggan was fun the first 30-40 times, the last 100+ have been a grind, I would have much rather been fighting other VW mobs.

As more content is added it will be harder and harder to get VW items or keep people interested in VW. Especially if it is going to take 200+ kills to get some items. I have 1000 VW kills under my belt and one body drop and its Anhur Robe something I'll never get to use.

If the loot system was better people would explore the mobs that are killed only for advancement reasons, until then the same few mobs will get all the attention.

Quick fixes: Raise the cap on Rubi lights (greater chance at a decent drop), lower the cool down for new stones.

[Zarchery]

Like I said I don't know much about Voidwatch, but just thinking off the top of my head, maybe a good fix would be to eliminate Rare/Ex stuff from the drop pool all together (leave sellable non Rare/Ex stuff in there) and just have some sort of points system, like Therion Ichor or Nyzul Tokens or something, so that every run is SOME sort of tangible progress. Even if you had to do 100 runs at Kaggen or something, at least that would put their minds at ease that it would ONLY be 100, instead of several hundred.

[Raksha]

How about mobs can't die unless all lights are capped (Brigandish Blade style).

[SpankWustler]

Please let us know what you think.

Almost every problem with Voidwatch that has been mentioned, from popular or unpopular monsters to players using procs mainly for the drop-related bonuses, starts and ends with one thing. Extremely low drop rates that are further lowered by the "totally random thing is totally random" distribution system.

People fight the same monster 600 times because it is entirely possible to go 0/600 on a very desired drop. People fight a different monster only a half-dozen times because fighting the other thing 600 times has taken a heavy toll on their supply of Voidstones. It's not that some horrible monsters are unloved while others are the object of adventurers' pointy affections; it's much more a matter of limited resources due to forced repetition of fights.

People use procs to affect drop-rate and the number of drops in hopes that something desired will, against all odds, actually drop. Like a man on death row praying to the admittedly made-up deity that is the Flying Spaghetti Monster to wrap it's pasta-tendrils of love around his midriff and remove him from that dark cell and spare him his terrible fate, people will try anything when faced with what's effectively a 0.25%-0.75% drop rate.

The personal chest system isn't a bad idea in and of itself, but combined with punishingly low drop rates even with capped lights, the extra level of complete randomness it adds can be infuriating. Nine-tenths of the whacky things that players do in Voidwatch comes from being infuriated by the lack of drops and trying (and failing!) to obtain a drop in spite of it.

I literally can not imagine any way to make the drop-rates for desired items worse, so any change would be a welcome one. Open your minds and follow your hearts and implement whatever nutty thing you want. Even something ridiculous such as making logs edible, with a food effect of "Red Light +1000%" to "Red Light +3000%" depending on the quality of log eaten, would be a huge boon.

That said, lowering AoE damage or making it easier to cap lights aren't bad changes by any means. It just feels like such changes avoid the core issue.

[Helel]

Howdy!

I would like to make an addition to a planned adjustment that was announced earlier.

The issue at hand is the highest priority issue that we would like to address first before we make any other adjustments. There are many other adjustments we would like to make, but if we make too many adjustments at once, the following issues may occur:



The balance is shifted too quickly, possibly making the game worse
It is difficult to see improvement because too many changes are made
An unexpected adverse effect occurs due to the changes overlapping


To avoid these problems, it would be best to plan adjustments in order based on priority and their effect.

In response to us making adjustments in stages, many of you may feel that we are not making enough adjustments, but we hope you understand that our plan is to continuously make adjustments.

Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.
　
Now, I will address some feedback that has been submitted.



We understand your concern that players will simply switch to their strongest jobs due to the removal of the necessity to proc weaknesses and we’re carefully planning to address this issue.

In order to avoid content becoming monotonous, an idea we are looking into is not completely separating weakness and loot by increasing the maximum bonus attained through cells and other ascent items. As a result, if there are few players involved, using cells will replace having to proc weakness, and for larger parties, it would be possible to avoid paying the high cost for cells by procing weakness as usual.

We may discover some issues with the above proposal upon our extensive review, but we believe that if we completely separate weakness and loot, it is inevitable that players will lean toward using only their strongest jobs.

In order to allow creative freedom in battle, it is necessary to improve the effects of procing weakness, so that it is more enjoyable to use various tactics to proc weaknesses rather than resorting to using the strongest job available. This is a long term goal for us, so it is not possible to make this change all at once, but we will be taking steps one by one to achieve this goal.

Please let us know what you think.

...What? Alright uh, somebody needs to fill me in here. Since when is using your strongest job a bad thing? Isn't the whole reason it's your strongest job because you like to use it?. Why would anyone want to play a weaker job because they're forced to proc crap? This seems absolutely absurd to me and I literally just yelled at my computer after reading this. There's a whole topic on getting rid of proc systems! What makes you think people want this?

Get rid of the need to proc on higher tiers (to stay alive), and let people come the jobs that they want to for once (since pre-abyssea...).

[Dantedmc]

...What? Alright uh, somebody needs to fill me in here. Since when is using your strongest job a bad thing? Isn't the whole reason it's your strongest job because you like to use it?. Why would anyone want to play a weaker job because they're forced to proc crap? This seems absolutely absurd to me and I literally just yelled at my computer after reading this. There's a whole topic on getting rid of proc systems! What makes you think people want this?

Get rid of the need to proc on higher tiers (to stay alive), and let people come the jobs that they want to for once (since pre-abyssea...).

It won't be "your strongest job that you like to use". It will be the jobs that kill the fastest and whms on all but the toughest nms that actually require procs. Atleast right now a majority of jobs are involved in the event.

[Camate]

Trust me when I say that I understand what your major concerns are and that discussions are taking place about them. However, when the team outlines other areas of adjustment, it does not mean that ways of improving what you care most about is not on their radar.

As a side note, being rude to me or other members of the team is not going to help your case or make the development team look at these points of concern any quicker. Please try to keep your comments on target without being rude or offensive.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Why was my post deleted, I only commented on the "Add to Treasure Pool" comment. /sigh

[Alhanelem]

It's interesting in that this reveals that their intention with the VW proc system was to encourage job variance, but I nisist still that it's not a very effective means of doing that. The reason players will gravitate towards "the strongest jobs" is because they are the strongest. That's the disparity that should be resolved. It shouldn't be "Golly Gee Whiz, we need a dragoon in this party or we're not going to get treasure!", it should be "A Dragoon would be a nice addition to our team! let's get one!"

Replace dragoon with your job of choice.

[Arcari]

Camate, before I report YOUR POSTS for being OFF TOPIC....

Read the first two lines AT LEAST in ANY post in ANY voidwatch post/thread. Start with THIS THREAD that you are "responding" to.

Feedback:

Everyone is saying it repeatedly, listing in order of importance:

1) The REWARD item distribution system* for Voidwatch is demoralizing, insulting, painful, and borders on punishment for participating in the event.

>> Simple solution: Add an "Add to treasure pool" option to the chests.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

2) Voidwatch is a Fun event; The challenge and "play" is there, and sufficient. It is dynamic, requires group play, teamwork, and is just difficult enough a bad pickup group cannot progress, but a good one can. No other aspects of the actual event other than the reward item distribution system* need changing at this time.


*Stating "Reward Item Distribution System" because for some unknown reason I think the devs think we're talking about "Temp Items". I say this based on YOUR feedback being so off the mark you'd have to do post graduate work in stupidity to be that dense.

You say you play the game, Prove it. There's no way you could be this off the mark.

Help us out here man.

Wow, really dude? You've heard of "don't shoot the messenger" right? I'm positive Camate is relaying everything we say about Voidwatch, it's not his fault that the dev team keeps dancing around the issues and giving him crap to report to us.

@Helel: I think what the devs are trying to avoid is the DD job selection in Voidwatch dissolving to "WAR MNK SAM ONRY!"

[Nightfyre]

In order to allow creative freedom in battle, it is necessary to improve the effects of procing weakness, so that it is more enjoyable to use various tactics to proc weaknesses rather than resorting to using the strongest job available.
No. No no no no no.

That is fundamentally wrong. It is not necessary to throw a tedious bandaid on a gaping wound in game design. If anything your highest priority, your necessary adjustment, should be fixing the fact that such imbalances in job choice exist to begin with. Otherwise you just end up making roundabout adjustments to all your content that do technically fix the issue but often not in such a way that makes the jobs that have been made artificially desirable fun to play in said content. The backlash from "balanced" procing jobs (speaking of which, notice how they're specifically referred to as "procing jobs" by the community - should make it painfully obvious that this is the only reason they're getting invites and as such they're expected to focus on procs rather than actually playing their job) should have clued the devs in to this months ago.

Spamming arbitrary triggers is NOT ENJOYABLE. I don't know how I can make that any clearer. It was tolerable in Abyssea because you only had to deal with a maximum of three procs per kill with a very limited pool of triggers to draw from (though still annoying in that my job choice was dictated by procs as much as job suitability - guess why I hardly ever play BLU when farming Abyssea?), now it's almost unbearable. If anything, the procs system should be removed entirely and temp item reception/mob mechanics redesigned from the ground up to compensate. A lot of work? Yes, but the low droprates of Voidwatch combined with the inability to pass drops to other members dictates that anybody wanting rare drops will also be putting in a lot of work.

[Nightfyre]

Trust me when I say that I understand what your major concerns are and that discussions are taking place about them.
How are we supposed to know?

It's a nice thought, but discussion needs to be followed by results. When we see words like "highest priority" and it doesn't line up with what the playerbase wants, especially if the playerbase has seen their wishes shitcanned previously (adding VW loot to pool, nevermind the rage at the "logic" behind it), there is definite cause for concern and we will naturally become more vocal about our desires in the hopes that tangible results will follow quickly. Dev time is a very limited resource, it should be spent wisely. Even if it's not always what we want, it should at least have a solid rationale behind it and that has been noticeably lacking without significant prodding from the community (hello RDM/enfeebles in general).

I'm sure that you know given your job on the community team (and I don't envy your position one bit:(), but if the devs were really listening I'd think we'd see a shift in content design away from undesirable mechanics and this has been largely lacking. It seems to be slowly coming, but not enough and not widely enough. I'd be more comfortable if shifts were happening without origin in vocal complaints, and I'll also happily offer praise for the devs when/if that happens.

[Tile]

Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.

I got a one, Distroy chest without obtaining any items after looking in it. doing so would increase the low % of getting a rare item and lower the % of getting logs etc. let people keep doing this for as many times as they want, with no cap on how high it goes, only to reset after you take a item from the chest. so after around 20 fights the chance for the super weapons and bodies are no longer 1% but 50%

that way doing the fight over and over again will be helping you rather then just making people get madder.

[Coldbrand]

Trust me when I say that I understand what your major concerns are and that discussions are taking place about them. However, when the team outlines other areas of adjustment, it does not mean that ways of improving what you care most about is not on their radar.

As a side note, being rude to me or other members of the team is not going to help your case or make the development team look at these points of concern any quicker. Please try to keep your comments on target without being rude or offensive.

Here, I'll be nice: Back in the Dragoon thread I made a very long list of common concerns among Dragoons and for the millionth time asked about Camlann's Torment. Could you please, kindly, respond? Look, I'm not trolling or hazing for once!

[Prothscar]

People realize that Camate, Rukkirri, and Bayhone aren't on the Dev Team right? They can only give us information that the Dev Team gives to them to relay to us. Don't blame them for the Dev Team's missteps and shortcomings.

[Tile]

People realize that Camate, Rukkirri, and Bayhone aren't on the Dev Team right? They can only give us information that the Dev Team gives to them to relay to us. Don't blame them for the Dev Team's missteps and shortcomings.

people have forgotten the phrase, Dont shoot the messenger

[Cybernetic_Empire]

Trust me when I say that I understand what your major concerns are and that discussions are taking place about them. However, when the team outlines other areas of adjustment, it does not mean that ways of improving what you care most about is not on their radar.

As a side note, being rude to me or other members of the team is not going to help your case or make the development team look at these points of concern any quicker. Please try to keep your comments on target without being rude or offensive.

I think a ton of frustration and ire could have been avoided if this response had been given a month and a half ago or more. You may have passed on the fact that the drop/chest system is near universally hated to the devs and received word back from them that it was being discussed. However, of all the community rep responses regarding VW, not once was it stated that this was the case. So from our point of view the number one concern surrounding VW wasn't being understood or was just straight up ignored.

[Finuve]

people also realize that the answers the dev team are giving us are crap and the reps are the only ones that can relate our message that the answers are crap back to the dev team

and if they are relaying that message back to the dev team, we are either getting nothing from them, or told that the things that are crap need to stay for some BS balance

and to tangent, THIS GAME HAS NO BALANCE

[Coldbrand]

I think you should FIX BLUE MAGE WHAT THE HELL BLUE MAGE IN VW IS THE LEAST FUN THING EVER HOLY SHIT.

[Prothscar]

people also realize that the answers the dev team are giving us are crap and the reps are the only ones that can relate our message that the answers are crap back to the dev team

and if they are relaying that message back to the dev team, we are either getting nothing from them, or told that the things that are crap need to stay for some BS balance

and to tangent, THIS GAME HAS NO BALANCE

They can relay what we say, but they have no power over what the Devs listen to or use. You can't blame the reps.


I think you should FIX BLUE MAGE WHAT THE HELL BLUE MAGE IN VW IS THE LEAST FUN THING EVER HOLY SHIT.

It's only not fun if you're bad at it.

[ShadowHeart]

everyone load up on cells 3 brd 3 mage rest dd zerg rinse repeat.... wait for drops 70% of the time during zergs lights cap and vwnm drops within 4-5 mins and if u drop cells in chances increase slightly u will get better then logs and stones for crafting so people just buy cells off ah and rinse repeat zergs... and really to me at this point in vw find it boring as he|| and got lots of the rarest drops but maybe just me being bored waiting for something new and challenging even though i think chalenge left this game 3 years ago or so...

[Finuve]

They can relay what we say, but they have no power over what the Devs listen to or use. You can't blame the reps.nowhere did I blame the reps

[Finuve]

ok lets simply go back to suggestions to fixing VWs loot system

"Add Item to Loot Pool"

could people still sell drops again? yes, is it the end of the world? HELL NO

this would fix people getting drops they will never use (Like me getting a mage body) and fix people getting duplicates

and, it would be balanced, real balance

[ManaKing]

I think you should eliminate the situation where you have 'stronger jobs'. What is the point of talking about balance if you are going to leave the jobs unbalanced. It's very contradictory. People would bring what they like to play if whatever they liked to play was actually as powerful as everything else in one fashion on another. Seems relatively blunt and simple, but you should really take a second to realize why this is so important. It may affect the future of your game.

Also, the ability to give my lucky drops to people would be appreciated. I received a deluxe animator after 3 runs of a mob. I can't just hand it to my friend who is a dedicated PUP. Do you have any idea how much of a dick that makes me feel? 'Oh sorry buddy, this loot system is just going to rub how lucky I am in your face and there is nothing I can do about it.' I am legitimately a social and caring individual who plays with several hard working friends. It's really not cool that I can't give things I don't want to people that do want them. That is part of the point of team work, is helping each other out.

[Coldbrand]

Only not fun if you're bad at it? So you enjoy casting such almighty spells as BLASTBOMB? Grow up kid. Yeah, I LOVE constantly resetting spells and being completely crippled.

[Zarchery]

As a side note, being rude to me or other members of the team is not going to help your case or make the development team look at these points of concern any quicker. Please try to keep your comments on target without being rude or offensive.

Bravo Camate. Bravo.

[Nynja]

Problem 1: certain VW fights arent repeated, nor have been done at all by some players, while some get constantly repeated. Why is this?
First, SE made it that people can "help" without having proceeded through previous content. Thats like being able to do CoP dynamis without having done CoP...
Second, low tier NM drops are AHable, therefor people can merely buy desired drops from the AH. Supply will hit general market. rare/ex drops pretty much go to where they fall, and with some people having an obvious luck stat, some people tend to get 2-5 rare/ex item while some people go 0/300. Thats why some fights are repeated and some fights arent.


Problem 2: theres too much reliance on temps, especially fanatics/fools drinks.
Yeah...cause the mobs have something like 200khp and can constantly deal out 1.5k damage at will. This comes back to the stupid statement of "abyssea was a mistake"...but it seems that the SE devs found it necessary to rehash mob damage capabilities from abyssea. We dont have 2.5k hp anymore, my thief has 1468 hp as thf/dnc. The solution to "everyones TPing in haste gear and destroying things fast" shouldnt be "lets force everyone to constantly wear max pdt available, since if they dont they'll get 1shot".

I'm aware you cant really answer this, and I've never fought the mob, but I've read about it on community sites...How is anyone supposed to survive Rex's chainspell meteor without Fool's Drink?

[Nightfyre]

I think a ton of frustration and ire could have been avoided if this response had been given a month and a half ago or more. You may have passed on the fact that the drop/chest system is near universally hated to the devs and received word back from them that it was being discussed. However, of all the community rep responses regarding VW, not once was it stated that this was the case. So from our point of view the number one concern surrounding VW was that it wasn't being understood or just straight up ignored.
Oh it was discussed... They said no, because then somebody could amass all the loot for themselves. God forbid somebody get 90 logs, how are you even supposed to hold all that crap much less multiple fights worth? And it completely misses the fact that you can't force somebody to pass anything to you anyway. If somebody gets a Mekira and wants to keep it then by all means, but when the MNK/DNC main gets one or I go 3/4 on Athos's Gloves it's just wasteful.


I think you should FIX BLUE MAGE WHAT THE HELL BLUE MAGE IN VW IS THE LEAST FUN THING EVER HOLY SHIT.

It's not so bad now that I don't have to set spells every time a proc comes up. Still annoying, but BLM is arguably much worse. At least I can still CDC things most of the time. Being able to contribute with spell utility as well would be fantastic but one thing at a time I guess... if it ever happens, they've sure made it a pain to use magic on high level NMs. Fodder onry my ass.

And wow, forgot I had this open for quite a while >.>

[Prothscar]

Only not fun if you're bad at it? So you enjoy casting such almighty spells as BLASTBOMB? Grow up kid. Yeah, I LOVE constantly resetting spells and being completely crippled.

Just because you don't know how to play the job doesn't make it any worse in VW. You should not be relying on spells at all, with 3 or 4 fights out of the several dozen available being exceptions.

[Frost]

While I agree that my post was strongly worded, it was hardly rude.

It is however frustrating when the thread is about "The Voidwatch drop system" specifically, and titled: "Seriously, VW loot system..come on." and none of the responses form the community team have anything to do with the topic: "Voidwatch loot system". It's a little irksome.

And then ask "please give us feedback"? It comes off a little rude.

Forgive me if my words cut a little close to the bone. It's not my intention to 'shoot the messenger' by any means. But when you've told the messenger repeatedly what to say and he comes back with everything but what you asked for. With no indication that the messenger has asked what your entire group has asked... It looks a little suspect. There's only so much stuff that can happen before you start to wonder if it is perhaps the messenger.

My humble apologies Camete. Nothing personal.

In the future, if you're responding in a thread specifically discussing a specific issue, would you be so kind as to address that issue in your opening comments just to acknowledge you're on the same plane as us?

There have been a number of these threads, and it does get frustrating; and it's not all voidwatch. There was a thread about, specifically, 'Corsair Shots' where the community rep response was all about Corsair Rolls, and had nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The impact of an action like that supersedes your intent.

[Anewie]

Trust me when I say that I understand what your major concerns are and that discussions are taking place about them. However, when the team outlines other areas of adjustment, it does not mean that ways of improving what you care most about is not on their radar.

As a side note, being rude to me or other members of the team is not going to help your case or make the development team look at these points of concern any quicker. Please try to keep your comments on target without being rude or offensive.
np, apologies for before.

[Ravenmore]

Second, low tier NM drops are AHable, therefor people can merely buy desired drops from the AH. Supply will hit general market. rare/ex drops pretty much go to where they fall, and with some people having an obvious luck stat, some people tend to get 2-5 rare/ex item while some people go 0/300. Thats why some fights are repeated and some fights arent.

I agree with the rest of your post but this is flawed. People still woudn't do the fights that they don't do already. In fact by not having the this it would mean even less people fighting it more then once or twice to help those that need the fight to progress.

[FrankReynolds]

The phrase "don't shoot the messenger" does not really apply in most cases on these forums. It is very clear that no one here is trying to get a rise out of camate et al. Out of all the posts I've read (and I've read far more than I care to admit), I can't really recall any that were directed at a community rep specifically. Almost every angry / belligerent post on this forum (that wasn't directed at another poster) has been out of frustration with the decisions made by whoever is in charge of the direction the game is going, and (most likely) the people in charge of deciding what information is announced on these forums.

I was under the impression that the community reps were here merely as translators and well community reps. I have yet to read anywhere that they have any power / position beyond the conveying of information from one party to the next. Maybe I am wrong, and they do in fact help develop content. Maybe they do more than pass on feedback from the forums and translate the developers responses to said feed back.

As of now though, I have yet to see any reason to believe differently, and therefore don't see how any of the comments about the developers, or the direction of the game reflect poorly on the community reps, or why they would be upset by them, unless they are in fact somehow responsible for the things that we are all complaining about.

In short. No one is shooting the messenger, and no one should be shot by the messenger just because he doesn't like the news he is expected to deliver. This really isn't something that should ever be brought up.

If Community reps feel slighted by the posts here, I humbly apologize. Perhaps clarifying that they are in fact posting a translation, and not their personal opinions would help.

IE. "here is some information about pankration that was posted on the JP forums. We translated it for you:... "
instead of "we feel that splitting the timers on steal and despoil would make thief over powered".

In the case of this thread, it is would be beneficial to all parties involved if the players assume that the reps are very clear on the topic, and are unfortunately not in a position to make things better. It would also be a good idea for the community reps to assume that the players understand this, and stop taking things personal.

But just to be sure it's understood. THE LOOT SYSTEM IS THE PROBLEM

[Tile]

But just to be sure it's understood. THE LOOT SYSTEM IS THE PROBLEM

I think 70% of the player base would agree with this statement. the other 30% are mules and dont get a vote

[Greatguardian]

Okay, I know Cam's been getting a lot of shit lately so I'll try to stunt my headache (which could honestly never be as bad as his must be right now) long enough to give a calm, clear explanation of what exactly we feel is being lost between ourselves and the Developers.

In one of the recent developer responses/interviews concerning the Voidwatch loot system, the Developers expressed concern about the fact that, if trading of chest items was allowed, one player could walk away with 18x5 = 90 items.

However, this is misleading. In actuality, and the Developers know this (it's their game, of course they know this), each reward chest in Voidwatch only ever contains 1 Voidwatch-specific drop slot. The other 1-4 slots are guaranteed junk. In this case, the most any "hoarder" would be able to accumulate is 18x1 = 18 items per run. That is still a lot, but it is far less intimidating than 90.

I should not need to inform the developers that it was their own decision to restrict the treasure casket to a maximum of 1 Voidwatch-specific drop slot which has obsoleted the entire concept of Blue light and Cobalt cells. I don't think it can be said any more clearly that the player base does not consider gold ore, steel ingots, and ebony logs as viable rewards. We generally, in almost all cases, do not even introduce these items into the player-based AH economy, choosing instead to simply drop, ignore, or NPC them.

Understanding these premises, I would offer two decently viable solutions to this dilemma:

1) Remove the slot-based restriction of loot in the Voidwatch Treasure Casket. By this I mean to say that all 5 slots in the casket should have a chance to load Voidwatch-specific drops at the same rate that the first slot loads now. This will essentially quintuple all drop rates for players who choose to use Cobalt cells and cap Blue lights. This will also allow a single player to obtain multiple Voidwatch drops in a single run. Is that really so bad? The players say no.

2) Just allow us to transfer loot to the treasure pool. Seriously. It's not that big of a deal. The devs can't scare us with that "oh no, 90 items to one person" line. We're smarter than that. Frankly, we're also more mature than that. This is 2012. The community has evolved over the past 10 years. Linkshells consisting of 15 slaves working for the benefit of 3 leaders just don't exist any more, and where they do exist they hardly thrive. People aren't that dumb. We're capable of being responsible for ourselves. We don't need extreme built-in protection against corruption or hoarding. We can handle it, I promise.

Look, I know you're just doing your job, and you must want to tear your hair out right now, but if there's one thing and one thing alone that the Devs need to understand before anything else can happen, it's that they cannot continue to underestimate us. We are smarter than they give us credit for. We understand far more than they give us credit for. And, frankly, despite what it may look like on the surface of these forums, we're far more mature than they give us credit for.

This is not the same player base that they were working with in 2005 and 2006. Much of the ire that is directed towards the Developers and, by proxy, yourself and your team members, is due to the fact that the Developers do not seem to be taking us seriously. We do not feel that the developers comprehend just how much we already know and understand about their game. A vast majority of Developer responses to the player base can be likened to a father telling his 5 year old son that light bulbs work through magic and electricity after the son asks about the difference in electromagnetic potential between 50W and 100W bulbs. And no, this is not your fault. This is not something that can be rephrased, or lost in translation. The wording is unimportant. It is the content which speaks for itself.

I do not feel that the Developers respect their player base as intelligent human beings, and this will only lead to problems for them. When the players ask for something that's both reasonable and plausible, the typical Dev response is "No, we can't do that because blank." We're not worried about blank. I'm sure that the Devs are reasonably intelligent people, but so are we. If they want to implement something but don't know how, they are allowed to ask us for help too. I promise we're not all NEETs. Many of us are computer programmers and sysadmins ourselves. Despite what they may want to believe, some of us even have a decent understanding of how the game code functions. And if we don't, nothing is stopping them from explaining the situation in more specific terms.

In fact, that's really the root of the issue. The developers don't seem to think that there are elements within the playerbase that are capable of understanding them if they just use technical jargon or give a detailed, precise answer to a question. Instead, they just jot down some general, layspeak jumble that they think will fly with us. Unfortunately for them, it doesn't fly with those of us who know what we're doing, and instead it just incenses us to know that they sincerely believed that people would accept such baloney at face value.

I'm sorry, but the first thing the Developers are going to need to do if they want to calm the playerbase down is show us a modicum of respect. We're not a bunch of children who need coddling or babysitting. We're intelligent, capable human beings, some of whom are likely smarter and more experienced than the Devs themselves, and we demand to be treated as such. As a programmer myself, Rule #1 for those in my profession is "Never forget that there will always be someone out there smarter than you". Rule #2? There is nothing wrong with asking for help.

[Frost]

Wow GG, that was exceptionally well written. I hope everyone takes the time to read that, not just the reps or the devs, everyone.

[saevel]

Trust me when I say that I understand what your major concerns are and that discussions are taking place about them. However, when the team outlines other areas of adjustment, it does not mean that ways of improving what you care most about is not on their radar.

As a side note, being rude to me or other members of the team is not going to help your case or make the development team look at these points of concern any quicker. Please try to keep your comments on target without being rude or offensive.

Camate many of us do not blame you or the other CR's. You guys (girls?) have a tough job relaying information back and forth and having to directly deal with an enraged player base.

Many of us have given various easy to implement solutions. What we've seen from the CR's translated feedback is that the dev's do not care what the players want or desire. Under no system should it take a player fighting a NM 200+ times to acquire an item. There is no way to describe such a random requirement in a positive light. The event of Voidwatch is fun, but only if your actually getting rewards from it. As most players are not receiving rewards, or rather the rewards they want, it has deteriorated into all these angry players.

The reactions of the playerbase could of easily been predicted if you (or the devs, or FFXI team leads) had studied DR. B. F. Skinner's research. He specialized in behavioral studies and did many experiments involving animals, levers and food pellets. He eventually created something known as a an Operant Conditioning Chamber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

It was a device used to train and instill certain behavioral characteristics into lab animals to study how to best train them. It has since become a staple device in any behavioral study.

FFXI's Voidwatch system operates exactly like a Skinner's Box set to random reward distribution based on dynamic input. Long wording meaning your reward is a random percentage, each time a rat hits the lever there is a chance at the food (reward) being dropped. Due to the randomness the rat is conditioned to hit the lever as often as possible and becomes agitated when food is not delivered over an extended period of time. Using a Skinner's box on human beings is considered unethical by behavioral scientists and the medical community at large.

[Runespider]

So they are trying to make VW more low-mannable now? While making legion which is 36 player content? Really I don't get what the team wants to push, low-man content or big alliance stuff.

I really hope a massive decrease in heavy metal plates trial is in the works (or increase plate drop rates/pouches), this will encourage almost everyone with an emp to do it. Right now almost nobody is upgrading emps (many people have multples and would upgrade them all is the trial wasn't stupid).

The real reason for doing VW should of always been the plates and upgrading emps, as it was the trial was too high so most people wrote it off completly and the only reason to do VW became the bodies/weapons. Due to the silly drop rates the trophy bodies being the main reason to do the event is what's causing uproar (especially after aby when players are used to not having to go 1/200). Timing for such an unrewarding event was silly.

Heavy metal plate trial is stupid, adjust it please. It won't change game balance because the upgrades are fairly weak anyway but it will encourage a lot more to do them and indeed make them want to do the next upcoming trial (not the last one lol).

[Tamoa]

To be fair, the dev team has already answered us regarding voidwatch drop system.

Remember this?:


It was decided that there will not be any fundamental changes to the drop system to make it possible to add item drops to the treasure pool, as the team does not believe this is not where the main crux of the problem lies.

Now this here is exactly what Greatguardian is talking about. You have a large number - most likely the vast majority - of players who are unhappy (to say the least) with the current voidwatch reward system. Dev team's reply: "nope, not gonna change it, nothing wrong with it."

However, we're not given any explanation as to why the dev team thinks there's nothing wrong with it. We're not given an explanation why they want it to stay the way it is. We're not told why it's a good reward system (in their opinion). Why can't we not be given a proper answer to this?

Most of us would at the very least see a change made so it'll be impossible for a ra/ex item to appear in the personal chest of someone who already has said item. Could we please be given an explanation why this isn't possible? Giving us the ability to "destroy" a ra/ex item we already possess, is not a solution at all. The problem isn't that someone gets their 6th Aliyat Chakram and can't take it out of the chest. All they need to do to make the chest depop sooner, is to run out of range. The problem is when someone gets their 4th Toci's Harness. Or Heka's Kalasiris. Or Mekira Meikogai. How is that person being able to "destroy" that body piece, helping the person in the alliance who's just done his 237th Kaggen fight without getting said body piece? It just feels like insult to injury, seeing the "duh, just got my 4th body" in party chat.

[Runespider]

Now this here is exactly what Greatguardian is talking about. You have a large number - most likely the vast majority - of players who are unhappy (to say the least) with the current voidwatch reward system. Dev team's reply: "nope, not gonna change it, nothing wrong with it."

However, we're not given any explanation as to why the dev team thinks there's nothing wrong with it. We're not given an explanation why they want it to stay the way it is. We're not told why it's a good reward system (in their opinion). Why can't we not be given a proper answer to this?

Because nobody would do VW after a month if they eased up now, they need to add more reasons to do VW aside from the r/e drops (heavy metal plate trial fix/maybe greatly lower the amount of curor you get in aby to make VW more appealing for that).

A point system would of been nice but for whatever reason they think this is better, I suppose to try encourage casuals. They won't change the real issue players have so it's pointless to rage over it, if they did they would greatly decrease how many fights you could do for balance. They will never give you unlimited tries with a decent drop rate, hell they even have things inplace to stop hardcore players getting drops in VW.

[Tamoa]

But the thing is, I'm not talking about drop rates. I'm talking about the drop system. I've said it before and I'll say it again - personally I don't mind low drop rates so much, but when coupled with the fact that one person can receive multiples of the same ultra-rare ra/ex drop, that's what's really bad. That, and the complete randomness of it all, which makes one person go 1/3 on a ra/ex body, while another person goes 1/350 - and the possibility that someone can do 1000 fights and still not get the ra/ex drop. And the last part is why I personally would prefer a point system of some sort.

[Finuve]

It was decided that there will not be any fundamental changes to the drop system to make it possible to add item drops to the treasure pool, as the team does not believe this is not where the main crux of the problem lies.
I do remember this, I think the development team needs informed that they are wrong and this is the main crux of the problem with voidwatch loot

[Runespider]

Yeah but that's a cheap design ploy to make it more appealing to a greater audience, if everyone knew you would have to go 1/200 very few casuals would bother, it's all about abusing psychology. The fact you can go 1/3 is what encourages those kinds of players to do so, even if it's just 1/3 on one body and 1/200 on the next, it still puts that hook in you that it "can" drop really quickly, or on that next kill (even if it happens to someone else, it still puts it in your mind). It's about getting you addicted, skinner box etc.

I hate that I work really hard and someone else breezes one but i know why they did it and I know why they are so reluctant to change it. Sadly these bodies never were status or reward items, they were just lucky dips that anyone could get lucky and get and should be seen as such. If you worked your ass off going 1/400 and are proud of it the guy next to you with the same body and all aurore in every other slot that did VW twice wants a word with you, this isn't endgame really it's just an nm fight where half the alliance can be carried with a pure lottery game at the end. If they put a point system in next update where you had to kill a set number of each NM and have all the clears to +1 the bodies it would at least even out that the good players would feel more rewarded, VW desperatly needs "I'm good at this event and here's my loot to prove it" and not "I did vw and got lucky".

They didn't make a design mistake in their mind, they planned it all to work the way it does and for reasons. That's why they won't change it, they know why we hate it but the reasons we hate it are the reasons they like it.

[Tamoa]

I really do think that the main gripe people have regarding voidwatch loot system, is the fact that one person can get the same ra/ex item in their personal chest more than once. And I cannot fathom how changing it so that this can't happen, can have any sort of impact on the dev team's precious balance at all.

[Runespider]

I really do think that the main gripe people have regarding voidwatch loot system, is the fact that one person can get the same ra/ex item in their personal chest more than once. And I cannot fathom how changing it so that this can't happen, can have any sort of impact on the dev team's precious balance at all.

Artifically bloats the number of drops and helps with the "it can drop" mindset, as opposed to "it never drops, i quit". They could of easily done a check and make sure people that have it never see it, the fact they left it shows they see value in that happening and as i said above i think it was about artifically bloating the number of drops. Hell they are even adding a "destroy loot" option instead of it never loading if you have it lol

[Mirabelle]

I appreciate your post GG, but I don't think the playerbase is as smart as you make it out to be.

For one, while many of the suggestions we make have merit, at no time does the playerbase acknowledge that the primary purpose of the devs is to keep us playing the game for as little resource investment as possible. SE is a company. They are there to make money. As such, suggesting changes that produce shortcuts in time to obtain a reward will never fly with them.

As a mature player, I'd rather see the devs admit this outright. "We are not changing so and so because it would allow the playerbase to advance quicker than we can make new content". A succinct honest answer. Or "our gaming psychologists say that players are more inclined to repeat activities if we design rewards this way". This is what the game design is all about.

But there is clearly a fine line between feeding the addict and frustrating the addict to the point he chooses a different addiction. SE has been wandering that fine line for a while now with Voidwatch. Judging by the ongoing activity in that system, I don't think they've gone too far yet. Certainly compared to WoE, VWNM has been a success. Compared to Abyssea though its not nearly as fun or worthwhile.

Bottom line: Devs care about the bottom line, players do not. Design will always look at enticing ongoing subscribers to stay ongoing subscribers at the lowest possible expense. Players will always want an ongoing variety of new options as they get bored of material, but that is a more costly way to feed the addiction than just designing rare drops from difficult challenges that people have to constantly repeat to get their reward.

[Dreamin]

Trust me when I say that I understand what your major concerns are and that discussions are taking place about them. However, when the team outlines other areas of adjustment, it does not mean that ways of improving what you care most about is not on their radar.

As a side note, being rude to me or other members of the team is not going to help your case or make the development team look at these points of concern any quicker. Please try to keep your comments on target without being rude or offensive.

I'm sorry that you and other messengers has to deal with us, the angry playerbase. But if you look at the root cause, the playerbase are angry and extremely frustrated because it appears completely that the DEV team do not understands our frustration or even worst, they understands it but doesn't give a crap about it. So after the nth round of complainting without any clear indiciations of any move to fix the ACTUAL problem, you can't blame the playerbase to lose our cool and become rude.

So until the Dev team is willing to accept and fix the MAIN issues that the playerbase have, you can relate this message to them:

Go "POUND SAND" if they want to experience 1st hand as to what and how the playerbase are experiencing with VW because clearly they do not play the game the way their players are playing because they do not share the same viewpoint as their playerbase.

[Brolic]

Trust me when I say that I understand what your major concerns are and that discussions are taking place about them. However, when the team outlines other areas of adjustment, it does not mean that ways of improving what you care most about is not on their radar.

As a side note, being rude to me or other members of the team is not going to help your case or make the development team look at these points of concern any quicker. Please try to keep your comments on target without being rude or offensive.

instead of being vague, how about you tell us what our concerns are? lets see how in touch with the player base yall are


people arent keen on feeling ignored, not for a service they pay for. are you surprised that they're getting snippy?

[Dreamin]

I appreciate your post GG, but I don't think the playerbase is as smart as you make it out to be.

For one, while many of the suggestions we make have merit, at no time does the playerbase acknowledge that the primary purpose of the devs is to keep us playing the game for as little resource investment as possible. SE is a company. They are there to make money. As such, suggesting changes that produce shortcuts in time to obtain a reward will never fly with them.

As a mature player, I'd rather see the devs admit this outright. "We are not changing so and so because it would allow the playerbase to advance quicker than we can make new content". A succinct honest answer. Or "our gaming psychologists say that players are more inclined to repeat activities if we design rewards this way". This is what the game design is all about.

But there is clearly a fine line between feeding the addict and frustrating the addict to the point he chooses a different addiction. SE has been wandering that fine line for a while now with Voidwatch. Judging by the ongoing activity in that system, I don't think they've gone too far yet. Certainly compared to WoE, VWNM has been a success. Compared to Abyssea though its not nearly as fun or worthwhile.

Bottom line: Devs care about the bottom line, players do not. Design will always look at enticing ongoing subscribers to stay ongoing subscribers at the lowest possible expense. Players will always want an ongoing variety of new options as they get bored of material, but that is a more costly way to feed the addiction than just designing rare drops from difficult challenges that people have to constantly repeat to get their reward.

Corrected, so therefore the only reasonable and most profitable ways to operate is for SE to SPENT the RESOURCES and add new Content to this game. You keep feeding the addicts (that would be US) the stuff that they wanted and they will keep feeding their coffers with their money. Win-Win all around. But when you stop feeding the addicts with contents that they want, they will move on to a different addiction and may/may-not come back at all.

However, somehow that mentality is lost to the business folks upstairs @ SE who still have dreams of the failed FF14 to make a come back when they roll out v2 next year. While they frustrated enough existing customers on FF11 to have quit (if you dont think there are enough ppl quitting due to lack of real content since Abyssea you haven't been looking around hard enough).

[Camiie]

I think the issue for me is that I don't really feel comfortable making a long term commitment to FFXI as I did in the past. I'm not really up for a goal that may take me years to complete like getting certain rare, coveted gear from HNM or Dynamis back in the day. I don't really want to get into something where there is a high chance that my goal will never be attained due to sheer randomness.

What works for me now is having goals I can work toward at my own pace, and having more short term goals as opposed to a few long term goals. That's the sort of thing I'd like to see rather than a return to the old ways of randomness and devoting my life to some event LS.

I'm not who I was when I started. MMOs aren't what they used to be. I know better now and so do most game developers. I don't want to go back to relive the glory days of hardcore and elitism. Looking back, many of those days weren't all that glorious. These days, I just want to log-in have fun and get stuff done with my friends in a Final Fantasy type environment. As is, I feel VW isn't really for someone like me. As the current primary focus of the game it'd be nice if it was more palatable for me. Nothing the devs have addressed so far has served that purpose.

So, what's in store to lure in someone who's on the fence or wary about participating in VW because of the horror stories of the drop system?

[Greatguardian]

I appreciate your post GG, but I don't think the playerbase is as smart as you make it out to be.

You highly underestimate the FFXI playerbase. I know more FFXI players with Masters degrees and Ph.Ds than players without them. I can count the number of actual teenagers I know on this game on one hand.

We don't need to explain SE's corporate marketing strategy to them. The fact of the matter is that Developers are not corporate or marketing professionals. They are game design professionals. Their only goal should be the creation of fun and engaging content that the players enjoy. Marketing can come in and yell at them later if said fun content somehow causes a severe drop in subscriptions, which is unlikely.

Even so, many of the qualms the player base has with the Development team do not stem from manpower or budget issues at all. We all know that FFXI's server hardware is maintained by 2 red pandas and a schizophrenic homeless man named Karen. In fact, it really just gets on our nerves when they claim that time/budget issues prevent them from making what most programmers or design professionals would consider a 5 minute fix, such as the issue of Recast timer indexing.

Besides, like I said before, there's nothing wrong with asking for help. FFXI is 10 years old. No one gives a damn about the secrecy of the source code any more. If the Developers really don't have the time to re-index recast timers as 32-bit or 17-bit numbers, why not ask one of us to do it? Let's be real, it's not like we haven't been cracking their data files and taking apart their UI for years. All it would take to increase the amount of available recast timers in the game is to add a few 0's to a bunch of numbers and maybe change a data type here and there. Really not a huge deal.

Players do care about the bottom line, though. When players are happy, the bottom line is good. It's just a natural consequence of players, you know, being happy with the game and thus continuing to pay for it. When the bottom line goes south, it means that players are not happy - generally, players do not enjoy being unhappy. Maybe some are into that sort of thing, maybe not. However, those who are into that sort of thing will probably stay subscribed in order to continue feeling unhappy so any net effect on the bottom line is going to be brought about by players who are unhappy and do not like being unhappy.

I am not particularly unhappy with the state of the game right now, personally. I don't take drops seriously enough to care that I probably won't ever get a voidwatch body, if only because my luck with drops is always epic-tier bad. I love how Legion looks, especially considering it is essentially what I've been espousing as the ideal in drop systems since day 1.

However, I am upset that the Developers seem to insist on treating us like children rather than functional adults. It's bad for us, and honestly it's bad for them too. I can understand being daunted by the plethora of often-conflicting feedback presented by the player base, but that does not mean that legitimate concerns are not being raised. I feel that the Developers have an extreme disconnect in perspective from the actual players of the game, and that they will not be able to understand what it is we want until they resolve that. Beyond that, they will be functionally incapable of resolving that disconnect until they learn to view us and treat us as equals.

[Mirabelle]

You highly underestimate the FFXI playerbase. I know more FFXI players with Masters degrees and Ph.Ds than players without them. I can count the number of actual teenagers I know on this game on one hand.

I follow the 80:20 rule which states that in any situation 80% of the people you deal with are morons. Sadly that even works amongst the educated. Common sense is decidedly uncommon.

I would agree that the devs should be less insular, more honest and more willing to work with the playerbase that at times has some excellent ideas (albeit 1 good idea for every 5 lame ones).

But at the same time, I think they've always been following the Skinnerian rule that the surest way to keep people paying to play is to offer rare intermittent rewards for any given task. Its been there from Land Kings, to Sky drops, Sea pops, camped NM's, VW chests, brown chests everywhere, etc. Its clearly a design strategy as its so pervasive.
But I'm sure an alternate strategy where people are given fun challenging tasks that are non-repetitive and engaging and have good rewards, is every bit as good a strategy for retaining subscriptions. Just more costly.

SE needs to understand we are older. Killing the same NM 500 times in a row is no longer an acceptable waste of time for most of us with jobs, spouses, kids etc. I thought the empy trials were about right. If done casually (6-9 hrs/week) with a small group about one 85 empy a month could be obtained. And casuals and hardcore could work at it. That was good balance IMO.

[Damane]

Voidwatch is bound to fail at some point. When the majority of the people get some items of one mob, the rest that need that item will have a difficult time building an ally to kill those mobs. I mean seriously after 140+ Kaggens to get what I wanted, I am not even gonna touch that shitty mob ever again ¬.¬

[Alhanelem]

I follow the 80:20 rule which states that in any situation 80% of the people you deal with are morons.Following such a rule doesn't preclude you from being part of the 80%.

[Mirabelle]

Following such a rule doesn't preclude you from being part of the 80%.

Admittedly that is true. Of course I will let those i admire in the good 20% be my judge rather than an internet forum.

[Tile]

1) Remove the slot-based restriction of loot in the Voidwatch Treasure Casket. By this I mean to say that all 5 slots in the casket should have a chance to load Voidwatch-specific drops at the same rate that the first slot loads now. This will essentially quintuple all drop rates for players who choose to use Cobalt cells and cap Blue lights. This will also allow a single player to obtain multiple Voidwatch drops in a single run. Is that really so bad? The players say no.

this would help so much, players would be willing to do them even after they got their Body or weapon. because that would be a chance at 5 plates on some fights.


A specific adjustment we have planned is to set blue and red alignment at their maximum values at the beginning of the battle.
※It would be possible to raise these values even more through ascent items.
As a result, players will not have to worry about exploiting weakness in order to obtain better loot. Our aim is for players to only have to consider exploiting weakness as part of their battle strategy. Also, this adjustment will address the difficulty of smaller parties obtaining loot.

people dont care about Blue lights because it just means more logs. if you made the change suggested by Greatguardian. then we would love the blue light always start at Full. all the old Classic NMs didn't have only 1 slot for rare items, they dropped many rare items in many slots, so why do we have to suffer with the 1 Slot, please pass along this suggestion.

As a person getting sick of VWNM I dont even go on 3/4 of the runs for the higher Tiers because its all dissappointment. Yes I could get a Plate that could be put into Circulation and help someone trying to finish their weapon but the odds are just to low so I dont bother.

[Elanabelle]

To avoid these problems, it would be best to plan adjustments in order based on priority and their effect.


Agreed.



Also, when leaving feedback I would like to ask that you provide detailed opinions with suggestions for improvement, rather than simply stating whether you like or dislike a proposed adjustment. This would be very helpful for us.

　
Please move "Loot distribution" to the very top of your "priority" list, and address that first and foremost ... and move all other "planned adjustments" down the list.

In order to "fix" the Voidwatch loot distribution system, please implement any, or all, of the following:

1. Allow players to add unwanted Voidwatch loot to alliance's Treasure Pool,

OR

2. Increase the chances/rate of uncommon highly-desired Voidwatch loot from the "personal treasure chest" when the player has maxed/capped Blue and Red alignment,

OR

3. Remove the "Ex" tag from Voidwatch loot,

OR

4. Implement a "points" system for acquiring Voidwatch Rare/Ex loot, similar to how Einherjar loot is purchased using Therion Ichor.

In addition, please program the Treasure Pool so that if an individual already has a Rare/Ex item, s/he can not receive the SAME Rare/Ex item again in the future.

[SpankWustler]

Even something as simple as the ability to convert an EX item into a Heavy Metal Plate or pouch of Heavy Metal Plates (for the really awesome EX items) would go a very long way.

This wouldn't be a drastic change at all, since rewards would remain individual and the items themselves would remain horrifyingly rare, but it would make a White Mage's second Toci's Harness while a broloved bro is still 0/159 a much less depressing sight.

[Tamoa]

Dear SE/Tanaka/FFXI dev team.



I just finished doing 4 Kaggen fights. The guy organizing it, is 0/250ish on Mekira Meikogai. One person in the alliance got Mekira Meikogai after the first fight. Then he got it AGAIN after the 3rd fight. He was the only person to get this item. Oh, and he wasn't using any cells whatsoever.

How does that possibly fit in with your love for "balance"????



Yours sincerely,
disgruntled customer

[Dreamin]

Dear SE/Tanaka/FFXI dev team.



I just finished doing 4 Kaggen fights. The guy organizing it, is 0/250ish on Mekira Meikogai. One person in the alliance got Mekira Meikogai after the first fight. Then he got it AGAIN after the 3rd fight. He was the only person to get this item. Oh, and he wasn't using any cells whatsoever.

How does that possibly fit in with your love for "balance"????



Yours sincerely,
disgruntled customer

Because you can't balance something that is PURE RANDOM Luck. Some ppl has it and some ppl just dont. Drop for VW is borderline gambling/lottery really where the only diffrence is that you are spending cells/stones and hope to win some ra/ex item instead of money in hope of winning more money.

Most of us are 0/200-0/400 on many of these items. It's sad that they just dont get the frustration they are putting their playerbase through at all.

[Arcari]

Dear SE/Tanaka/FFXI dev team.



I just finished doing 4 Kaggen fights. The guy organizing it, is 0/250ish on Mekira Meikogai. One person in the alliance got Mekira Meikogai after the first fight. Then he got it AGAIN after the 3rd fight. He was the only person to get this item. Oh, and he wasn't using any cells whatsoever.

How does that possibly fit in with your love for "balance"????



Yours sincerely,
disgruntled customer

Hearing this kind of occurrence really gets to me, but you know what really gets to me more? Now, we have to wait for an absolute confirmation, but from the way it sounds Legion drops will be handled, the loot you get from random drops and from Legion points will be one in the same. Meaning you can get lucky and have what you're looking for drop in the loot pool and you win lot/LS lets you have it, or you can grind for points, knowing that your hard work will pay off in the end.

So my question is, why can't the Voidwatch loot system be handled the same way? And another question, why does SE always seem to wait to make new content to address problems with the current content? I like new events as much as the next player, but the way the devs address problems like this (if at all) really annoys me.

[Tamoa]

Because you can't balance something that is PURE RANDOM Luck.

My point exactly. And yet they harp on about balance.

[Tile]

We've been asked not to just tear apart the System but to give suggestions, We've Given so many suggestions and alot of them seem to just get ignored

[Luvbunny]

Hearing this kind of occurrence really gets to me, but you know what really gets to me more? Now, we have to wait for an absolute confirmation, but from the way it sounds Legion drops will be handled, the loot you get from random drops and from Legion points will be one in the same. Meaning you can get lucky and have what you're looking for drop in the loot pool and you win lot/LS lets you have it, or you can grind for points, knowing that your hard work will pay off in the end.

I have the same question too - adding points would fix this imbalance and make sure people have something to look forward to - and yet they do nothing and decided to adjust things that we do not ask to be adjusted...

[Tamoa]

We've been asked not to just tear apart the System but to give suggestions, We've Given so many suggestions and alot of them seem to just get ignored

They've all been ignored to be honest - apart from "add to treasure pool" to which they replied "nope, not happening".

[Camiie]

Because you can't balance something that is PURE RANDOM Luck.


But it's not really random is it? Can computers even technically do random?

It's sorta random what drops, but it's not like each item has an equal chance of dropping. The percentages are obviously skewed towards vendor trash or nothing at all in some cases. Those percentages are set in the program, right? So, they actually could be balanced. Am I nuts here? I'm sure someone will quickly tell me if I am.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Doubtful it's a true random (in SE's case), and closer to pseudo random.

[cidbahamut]

If I recall correctly, computers can't generate true randomness, but they can run seeds through sufficiently complex hashing algorithms to simulate randomness to the point where humans can't distinguish it from true randomness.

[Dreamin]

It all depends on how they implement the drop. Remember there are 2 steps in the drop sequences - 1st whether or not the given ra/ex item is drop from the NM. Then step 2, which of the 18 potential chest this item will get spread into. Which we'll never know for sure since it's on the server end. And it really is this 2nd distribution where everyone wants to be fixed.

Some of the popular request to fix this are:

1. Make it so that if the person who will be getting will not get it and instead, have that chest be passed to the next person. This would effective changes the 'equation' from 1/18 to 1/17 or 1/16...1/Y where Y = number of ppl who has not already received such item. This method is ideal for ppl who are in the same group that keeps repeating the same NM fight over and over again until everyone eventually all receives the item. This happens because the effective drop rate gets better and better for the person who has not yet received the item.

2. Make it so that anyone who has gotten the ra/ex can place that item into a common loot pool so that anyone can lot it. This step would effectively eliminates the 1/18 2nd step but rather will allow ppl to just lot on them. This method basically gets us back to the old and regular drop into loot pool where everyone then 'lot' and at least gives everyone a sense that they have 'just as good of a chance' in getting it then the person next over. [People who are against having LS where leaders always gets the top price first probably would not be in favor of this but at least it is still a better 'alternative' for PUG at least].

[Manicora]

Issue with the Pass treasure to next person is simple They will not do that.
As far as People getting items in pool that they already have, SE has been doing that for years, Sky Sea Limbus Abyssea everything has that happen. So many times have I seen Sell able rare and non sell able rare/ex items hit the floor because everyone had those items. SE simply does not care enough to change that fact. It would be great to have options to limit what you can get by already having items in your inventory like Bodys and Acc. Only way to change this is to Spam the total number of post not just keep 1 or 2 post Running though 20+ pages of comments Start new post every day about something you wish to change that is how They see you want change.

[Greatguardian]

If I recall correctly, computers can't generate true randomness, but they can run seeds through sufficiently complex hashing algorithms to simulate randomness to the point where humans can't distinguish it from true randomness.

This is correct. It's still non-controllable "random" at least. Lots and /randoms are completely controllable since they're a linear system rather than any sort of complex algorithm. Having the /random function be non-random is kinda hilarious imo.

Fun fact for those of you who don't know how the random/lot system works: It's easily controllable and you can hit 900+ lots any time you want without any third party programs.

[Arcon]

Fun fact for those of you who don't know how the random/lot system works: It's easily controllable and you can hit 900+ lots any time you want without any third party programs.

That's my first time hearing this. I find it hard to believe SE would do something that stupid. How exactly does that work?

[Greatguardian]

That's my first time hearing this. I find it hard to believe SE would do something that stupid. How exactly does that work?

It's a server load saving measure, I'd imagine. Instead of asking the server to generate tons of random numbers (since people /random and lot all the time), your client just sends a ping to the server and the server sends a number back based on when that ping is received. That time is just a measure of the Vanadiel Minute. Each VD Minute can be split 1000 ways. If the server receives your ping at the very start of a new VD minute, you'll roll a 999. If the server receives your ping at the end of a VD minute, you roll a 0. Everything in between is returned linearly.

There's slight variation based on internet connection speed (speed of light isn't instant, etc), since the number returned is based on when the server receives the ping rather than when the ping is sent, but that's very minor in most cases unless you're living in a country with fairly poor network infrastructure.

This was all figured out years ago. It's why you can also repeatedly generate the same number (or extremely close to it, variations due to network travel) if you set up a script to /random at set intervals corresponding to the length of a VD minute.

It takes a bit of skill to pull off, so I'm not really worried about people figuring it out. I rarely ever use this trick, it's generally not worth the effort. It's neat to know, though. I think it's fairly ingenious from an efficiency standpoint.

[Runespider]

Doubtful it's a true random (in SE's case), and closer to pseudo random.

The way I assumed it worked was it did a random (using the ingame random system with different end-number and hidden from chat) between 1~5 and if it rolled a 1 you get a HQ slot to load. Then it did a random again betwen 1~200 and if you get a 1 it loads the HQ item, if you get 2~10 you get the 2nd item, if you get a 10~50 you get the 3rd item, if you get a 50~200 it loads a plate....etc depending on number of possible HQ drops.

As for server load, there aren't that many people doing VW at once to make it an issue.

[Arcon]

It's a server load saving measure, I'd imagine. Instead of asking the server to generate tons of random numbers (since people /random and lot all the time), your client just sends a ping to the server and the server sends a number back based on when that ping is received. That time is just a measure of the Vanadiel Minute. Each VD Minute can be split 1000 ways. If the server receives your ping at the very start of a new VD minute, you'll roll a 999. If the server receives your ping at the end of a VD minute, you roll a 0. Everything in between is returned linearly.

I'm guessing they changed that then. I'm still having a hard time believing it ever worked like this. I just did a test run and it received /random lots pretty evenly distributed from 0 to 999. Even if that's all due to connection lag (which should be minmal with a fast and responsive wired broadband connection like mine), it still means there's no way to influence it manually.


I think it's fairly ingenious from an efficiency standpoint.

Not sure if I'd call it ingenious. If they indeed implemented a linearly cycling system like that it should simply be based on milliseconds with a predetermined (random) permutation, the connection lag would still make it impossible to time it properly and it would be, for all intents and purposes, random. To be ingenious it should be something that people couldn't influence manually. And I don't think lotting occurs often enough for it to be an issue anyway.

[Greatguardian]

I haven't tried it in a while, but it definitely worked for a long time unless they ninja'd it more recently. I doubt they'd have any real reason to, but who knows.

I may try and dig up the original BG findings thread, but that was years ago and probably lost in one of the server moves.

[SpankWustler]

I honestly would not be shocked if Voidwatch uses an algorithm based off of a character's name when determining pyxis contents, given the "on or off" drop rates that are reported. I'd be even less shocked if it was designed that way because a programmer's cat died the day previous and he wanted to do something truly malevolent to a vast number of people.

[Nightfyre]

But it's not really random is it? Can computers even technically do random?
They can with the proper equipment, but that's more for high-security applications. I'd expect SE to use low-security pseudorandom algorithms instead. The difference is generally academic unless we're actually able to exploit the pseudorandom algorithms (in such a case as GG mentioned, or even out of stronger generators in certain environments).

Anyway yes, random drops can be "balanced". In this case, I would propose that balance corresponds to a reasonable expectation that you will obtain the drop by putting in a certain amount of effort. Obviously a non-100% value means we can't expect to get rewards within a reasonable timeframe every time (this is where considerations for a point system would come in to play), but you can still estimate an effort:reward ratio for an average case and adjust accordingly.

[leorez]

not sure if anyone mentioned it (too many pages to go through) but one of the few things 14 had that was nice was the fact that any drop you had could be passed to other players. I never liked having to deal with months of crap to get 1 decent drop from a shells point system, so i like that everyone always gets something, but letting people at least pass a reward sound good enough for shells and friends to make sure people they want to get something do, but not forcing pick up players or w/e to deal with fighting over the pool.

[Runespider]

not sure if anyone mentioned it (too many pages to go through) but one of the few things 14 had that was nice was the fact that any drop you had could be passed to other players.

In WoW during the raid you can trade R/E items to others, after the raid ends you can't. Square won't do it and we know why but that is an awesome system.

[GarudaEban]

My vote would be for SE to add some sort of broker. A new tenshodo npc who would (for a small fee) exchange rare/ex voidwatch items of equivalent rarity (same tiers, for instance) between two consenting players. It wouldn't solve the problem of people going forever and getting nothing, but at least it would help with the issue of helping players get items they desire more easily, rather than those they can't use.

[Arcon]

My vote would be for SE to add some sort of broker. A new tenshodo npc who would (for a small fee) exchange rare/ex voidwatch items of equivalent rarity (same tiers, for instance) between two consenting players. It wouldn't solve the problem of people going forever and getting nothing, but at least it would help with the issue of helping players get items they desire more easily, rather than those they can't use.

I agree that it would be a start, but it also still wouldn't solve the issue of people getting the same drops over and over again, not being able to trade them to others. And it would still allow people to sell drops (which is precisely what I think SE wanted to prevent with this), if they don't have them themselves (which may be an issue for some people, but not for RMT, for example) however without the benefit of doing it on the fly, and without any security. If they did implement that, you'd either have to receive the item first or pay the gil first, you can't do it simultaneously like if the items weren't exclusive, in which case they could be traded or sold in various ways.

[Runespider]

Selling drops has nothing to do with anything, selling drops is rabid for aby gear, selling drops will happen in legion. They don't care about that, they just wanted to make sure it took as long as possible for players to get the gear and cease having a reason to do the content. More hoops you put inplace to stop the player getting to the carrot the longer they chase it.

[GarudaEban]

I agree that it would be a start, but it also still wouldn't solve the issue of people getting the same drops over and over again, not being able to trade them to others. And it would still allow people to sell drops (which is precisely what I think SE wanted to prevent with this), if they don't have them themselves (which may be an issue for some people, but not for RMT, for example) however without the benefit of doing it on the fly, and without any security. If they did implement that, you'd either have to receive the item first or pay the gil first, you can't do it simultaneously like if the items weren't exclusive, in which case they could be traded or sold in various ways.

Sorry I wasn't clearer with my description. The broker would exchange two different items of equivalent rarity between two consenting players, using a program that is run by the broker. It would be a completely new program, not one that uses the current trade command program. It would be launched much like Venture Roll, with the broker npc waiting until two people looking to swap speak to it. Requiring both people to be in the same group would prevent mixups between multiple pairs looking to trade at once.

Player #1 selects Mextli Harness from their item list. Broker gives this fact to Player #2 who selects their Fazheluo Radiant Mail from their item list (in which everything except the two eligible items, the mail and the Anhur Robe, is grayed out.) Broker shows the proposed deal to both players and asks if this is acceptable. If both players agree, the NPC exchanges the two items.

This would solve the problem of a person getting an item over and over again (assuming they send their original copy of the item to a mule before a run) because if they get something they already have they can find someone who wants one and has an item from the same tier willing to trade. Selling drops would be rare, since only people who are willing and able to give up an equivalently rare item would be able to use the system. Finally, security would not be an issue, since the program would be run on SE's end.

[saevel]

Sorry I wasn't clearer with my description. The broker would exchange two different items of equivalent rarity between two consenting players, using a program that is run by the broker. It would be a completely new program, not one that uses the current trade command program. It would be launched much like Venture Roll, with the broker npc waiting until two people looking to swap speak to it. Requiring both people to be in the same group would prevent mixups between multiple pairs looking to trade at once.

Player #1 selects Mextli Harness from their item list. Broker gives this fact to Player #2 who selects their Fazheluo Radiant Mail from their item list (in which everything except the two eligible items, the mail and the Anhur Robe, is grayed out.) Broker shows the proposed deal to both players and asks if this is acceptable. If both players agree, the NPC exchanges the two items.

This would solve the problem of a person getting an item over and over again (assuming they send their original copy of the item to a mule before a run) because if they get something they already have they can find someone who wants one and has an item from the same tier willing to trade. Selling drops would be rare, since only people who are willing and able to give up an equivalently rare item would be able to use the system. Finally, security would not be an issue, since the program would be run on SE's end.

Too complex a system.

Invariably it seems the old maxim is true, the simple solution is the best solution. Give players the ability to put a R/EX item from their box into the community loot pool. *BAM* instantly problem solves, mass's rejoice. Very little programming required, little room for bugs / errors, increased loot distribution and players are happy and dance in a big circle.

[dragoon_apprentice]

Keep the voidwatch system the same. add point system to legion. have the rewards from legion be old voidwatch gear and plates as a reward for points, as well as new legion gear for points. Even if new legion gear is better, maybe you wanted a piece from voidwatch for something specific. This way, you wont be stuck doing it more. after hundreds of voidwatches, anyone will get tired of it if they cant get their drop because ofthe effort. This way, you can do somethign new ( legion) and work on other stuff that you wanted from VW over time.

if you add points to voidwatch, guess what is next? more voidwatch

[Zinato]

I seriously, can't believe the things I'm reading. The Dev team has begun working on several issues brought up by the voidwatch system, and yet here everyone is complaining and repeating the same things. You have been assured your concerns are being discussed, ALL OF THEM. But, for some reason everyone seems to expect that the entire team drop everything they are doing and fix drop rates this instant, and the players don't seem like they will be satisfied until it is added. Lets assume for a moment they said right now "we plan to increase drop rates in all voidwatch in the June update." Do you know what would happen? Everyone would immediately get on the forum and proceed to say, "Make it a priority, we don't want to wait"

We have conformation of several great changes.
*A battlefield know for freezing will be altered until the freezing issue is fixed. And I know the response to my saying this will be, It shouldn't freeze in the first place. Well, it does and the fact it being looked at is wonderful news.
*Second, the mass AoE and Deathga known to many NMs will reduced allowing for a more normal fight style, as compared to the current Invulnerable or Dead style. (When a BLM can be the main tank for some Voidwatch there is an issue that needs to be addressed)
*Additionally, the DEV team is working on adjusting the systems battles to not require top tier gear. This is fantastic news, hopefully it will help the event allow more players as well as allow players to play jobs they like but, may not have top edge gear for. "But, if you play a job regularly you would have it geared" you may say. It seems a little hard to believe that every paladin has aegis and ochain for the battles that specify one or the other. Also, what about the players with several DD, the fact that players expects a player with SAM WAR and DRK to have an empyrean for each is pretty sad. Dispelling ideas of master gear is a great step for Voidwatch, more players to join means more runs to be made to acquire gear. Every time I see a player complain the game is too easy, all I do is laugh and think put down your god mode weapon.
*We have been told, they will allow players to destroy unwanted items in chests, so that players who are above bringing R/X to Voidwatch runs don't leave the chest standing.
*We have been told, that lights will be less of an issue in Voidwatch and from the sounds of it will be set to maximum in all fights. This means procs will no longer have a major impact on fights and also means players can focus on fighting and not spaming Stone II for hints and procing.

These are all wonderful adjustments that will make voidwatch more enjoyable for all, and I thank the DEV team for the consideration, with some luck and future teaks voidwatch may become a "battle" and not a "proc or die" (And I know I will get a Voidwatch isn't hard now response, and yet even still those same people will go fully geared, Empyrean DD only, temp spam into fights. Perhaps if it really is not that hard try doing a run without such things.)

As my final note, all I see is people suggesting the same things, The DEVs have seen it. You are not getting a response because they have nothing to report on the issue right now. All of these suggestions on how to "fix" voidwatch are all loot based and don't even match up. Player A wants a place in pool option, Player B wants the items to be R/ but not /X and Player C wants points. (Someone is going to be disappointed and those people will just come right back here to complain) Have some patience, I have a really hard time believing all of these people with "nothing to do" have every single piece of gear, for all jobs they have except those R/X ones from Voidwatch. How about progression? After all nobody likes the guy how doesn't have Voidwatch warp and spends 30 minutes walking to the fight.

All of these posts that are yelling at the MODs and DEVs, (its gotten so bad poor Camate had to step in) do nothing but, remind me of a spoiled brats who complain if they don't get their way, and right this instant. *Think german condom commercial

Finally, at risk of being hated by this entire thread, board and even my server. I want to thank Camate for putting up with this and having the courage to speak. I also want to thank the DEVs for considering our feedback (even if it is not currently top priority) and looking into Voidwatch, as well as putting their best efforts into making it an enjoyable event for everyone. If one day something is done to alter drop rates, wonderful, if not I still look forward to a more enjoyable event.

[FrankReynolds]

Do you know what would happen? Everyone would immediately get on the forum and proceed to say, "Make it a priority, we don't want to wait"



I would love to have you as a customer at my business.

<customer> Hey do you guys have any sports cars?

<salesman> No. We got a lot of requests for them, but we decided to build a car with marshmallow tires instead because we think marshmallows are important.

<customer> Cool. I'll just wait here for the next year or two, maybe you'll make them then. Here is my money in the mean time. you can just hold onto it. I trust people who put marshmallows on cars.

In real life though, if you tell your customers to shut up and wait because your busy working on things they don't want or need, they tell you to get your priorities straight (if your lucky).

[Zinato]

While, I appreciate the analogy you miss the point. First, I'm glad you can get into Voidwatch and work on it daily. However, much of the server is alienated from this process. The more of the server able to participate the more runs can be created and the more opportunities to obtain this gear. Fact is unlike abyssea, voidwatch has been slow to take off due to the misconception that great gear is mandatory, which I'm sure most people would agree great gear is not a common thing. You could find 10+ runs of a single NM on a daily basis if the same held true for VW most people even those at 0/400 would have a body by now. But, as things stand perhaps 1-2 (if you are lucky) will take place each day. VW is not a common event and drop rates are not the only issue. Numerous runs need a pld or war that i wish to join, but my gear is not "elite" so i cant join. (That's one less person for the run in question imagine if everyone in my shoes could join any run, I'd wager there would be more) What I'm saying is the more people can access the material the more runs can be made. I'm hard pressed to believe anyone would claim "they don't need VW gear".

Second, unlike a car business (which doesn't manufacture cars but rather sells them) simply creating content is not such a simple task. To make a more appropriate analogy it would be like a department store, this department store is responsible for manufacture and sale of product. Now, people have complained about the mattresses in the bedding department. The store must then weigh the mattresses to the other products, perhaps they also have renovation (Legion, Neo-Nyzul) on the kitchen department. The game is not Voidwatch XI it is Final Fantasy XI and priorities are made as a whole not on "a single product". Also, to continue with the car analogy Yes, it is reasonable to expect a person to wait for the cars to be fixed, because to fix cars built with marshmallow tires would require a new production cycle plus whatever safety tests, blueprints, and planning that may be required to make new cars. (in our case Programming, Testing on test servers and scheduled implementation) If Voidwatch is all that's left for a particular player in this game, then they should have no issue doing many runs a day to acquire the last piece of gear before they are 100% done with the game. Nobody is paying each month for Voidwatch you pay for FFXI, if someone truly does nothing but voidwatch all day then they will get body soon enough.

We can't even know if the discussions for drop changes are taking place right now, but, with such a hostile environment anything the MODs say has to be carefully thought out. Therefore, they could very well have a plan in place but, simple not yet announced it.

[FrankReynolds]

We can't even know if the discussions for drop changes are taking place right now, but, with such a hostile environment anything the MODs say has to be carefully thought out. Therefore, they could very well have a plan in place but, simple not yet announced it.

Well, in my case, I have no interest in beating my head against the wall that is void watch at the moment. Making the monsters easier, and making more jobs get invites isn't going to change the fact that the drop distribution sucks. Great, I can go to VW on pup instead of war and still not get loot now. YAY!

Not to mention that the longer they wait, the higher the chances become that people who are doing the event right now, are wasting their time.

Do you want to spend a year trying to get a body from VW, only to have a better one come from legion a month later?

Let's say you just got that body after 3 month's of insane grinding, and watching other people get it on their first try. How does the fact that they just made the drop rate way higher make you feel? Like crap I bet.

If they address stuff like that right away, people don't get alienated. It's all about response time. If they had fixed the drops right away, very few people would have experienced the problem in the first place. The longer they let it go, the more people there are that feel screwed because they had to deal with it. Even if there is a job balance problem, or a NM that spams death, that is not what is bleeding their customers. How many times do you think you can kill the same damn NM without seeing a drop before the novelty of being able to go pup/bst wears off?

[Greatguardian]

You should log into game and come Voidwatch with me, Killface.

[Zinato]

We still have a minimum of 2 more Voidwatch installments. We don't know what KI, Atmacite, temps, drop rates or even if toci, heka, mekira, etc. will be among them. Would be like calling Abyssea a failure before Scars and Heroes. (I mean gear was mediocre, atma were decent but not great and you could only have one. But what came from Scars/Heroes? the gear many use now including Empyrean weapons and weaponskills.)

If drop rates suddenly increase the crafters for NQ and HQ versions get "screwed" since everyone gets the R/X one. So, the logic of "I spent my time to get a drop someone will get easier later" is invalid. How do you think relic holders feel? As content ages improvements happen, the patience required to get these items early is the price of having them before everyone else. If 2 years after something is introduced drops increase it should be of little importance. On top of which NEARLY ALL gear is eventually outdated, you work for the best at the time and then move on as new stuff comes out, That is what an MMO is, to complain of being outdated, is to complain at CoP, ToAU, WoTG, Story Add-ons, Abyssea, and 75+ level cap. You work to have nice gear to show off, or to make content for the newer gear/storyline easier but, to expect everything to always be relevant is not realistic.

What I see is impatient people, not willing to wait for drops, not willing to wait for the DEVs to adjust Voidwatch content. The other thing is the ONLY people who know what is planned are the DEVs, these "fixes" might hinder something found in the completed content. (imagine just for a moment that a KI is granted upon climbing all tiers of VW that grants an increase in drop rate, this would not only explain the current rates but, would be incentive to climb the tiers, which no one seems to want to do now. After all Shinryu granted a 90% reduction on Brew costs which people used to say "was unreasonably priced")

First people hate, loot snatching LS leaders. Then they hate the sales of R/X items such as shinryu and +2 items. Then, they hate individual chest. (suddenly people want to share) Almost seems the only mistake the DEVs made is listening to players, it only leads to more conflict. (Did I mention there is already resistance to the pool system of Legion, weren't the players just complaining about individual chest?) You are not only fighting for what you wish to see but, your fellow players (which seems to be a theme in-game too) and also, I've said it once before the "everyone" represented on this forum is a smaller amount then the "insainly low" drop rates in Voidwatch on top of which regardless of what people may think, your words represent only yourself.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Well, uh, yea, If I get 2 r/e bodies, or a r/e body for a job I can't use, I think I'd want to share it with someone who could too. I can't exactly hold two R/E drops now can I?

What the hell are you on? Ask anyone spamming a specific VWNM on your server why they're still fighting the same NM X times, and you'll get the same answer. It's not just the people posting here.

[Zinato]

For all of the people "who dislike the system", there are still plenty of runs daily though generally they are on a variety of different NMs. Plenty of people I know have made millions as a by-product of the bodies they seek. Many even used the money to buy HQ versions of that same gear. If they seek the higher grade version they will continue that NM, if not they move on to a piece they value more. People are complaining they don't have the BEST and will not be satisfied with HQ/NQ versions, that is what you pay for by doing a particular VWNM X times. Until the Voidwatch is released in its entirety, judging it and the DEVs beyond accessibility and glitches is no different then reading a book half way and stopping, then proceeding to proclaim its the worst book ever.

I want thank Neisan and Frank as it is thanks to those posts I have said everything I wish to on the subject. Anything I could say after this is just going to be repeating myself. I said what I wanted on the subject, beyond that only the individual can choose to heed my words.

[dragoon_apprentice]

Fact is unlike abyssea, voidwatch has been slow to take off due to the misconception that great gear is mandatory, which I'm sure most people would agree great gear is not a common thing. Numerous runs need a pld or war that i wish to join, but my gear is not "elite" so i cant join. (That's one less person for the run in question imagine if everyone in my shoes could join any run, I'd wager there would be more)
.

"Great" gear is very common now, and easy to get. maybe if u worked on 1 job instead of 12, and actaully stayed with a group of people for 5 seconds instead of bailing when it became somewhat of a grind to get your empy or ochain, on a job or 2 that u picked. If u actually worked on something difficult besides something nubsauce for the years this game has been out ( or months to weeks even is only what is required for a good weapon in abyessea if u have 1 or 2 friends), maybe u wouldnt be so inclided to whine about how people dont invite people without "elite" gear. Try leveling up bluemage, and getting all the magic. You will get invited regardless of empy or gear to any VW. Let me guess.... you are to lazy to learn all the blue magic, or are too lazy to get a good pld, or a good dd job w/ upgraded atmacite, or an empy, or a relic, or whm, or anything. Is it a wonder people dont invite your pink jacketed thf or your full perle war????

got issues with having friends or going to LS events? if u like this game so much, make a mule whm and/or bst, and farm yourself a duoable empy and gear. It is amazing to me that people who refuse to make a mule, are the same people who play this game for hours and hours, and still refuse to work with a LS, and dont have an empy or something to show for it, and whine at the rest of us for not inviting him. I spent more on my lunch yesterday than it would cost to have a mule for 2 months. I have no mule, yet i still have almace, and 66/75 scales on rhongomiont 90 and tons of gear. No ochain or aegis, so i dont try to go to VW events as pld...

they dont invite your pld, b/c without the new corsair roll (pdt-) they are bringing out, you would have died and ruined their run. derpa, they are brining out this roll b/c of people like u, so read patch notes? You got what u wanted.

[FrankReynolds]

We still have a minimum of 2 more Voidwatch installments. We don't know what KI, Atmacite, temps, drop rates or even if toci, heka, mekira, etc. will be among them. Would be like calling Abyssea a failure before Scars and Heroes. (I mean gear was mediocre, atma were decent but not great and you could only have one. But what came from Scars/Heroes? the gear many use now including Empyrean weapons and weaponskills.)

If drop rates suddenly increase the crafters for NQ and HQ versions get "screwed" since everyone gets the R/X one.....

What I see is impatient people, .....

.....your words represent only yourself.

You touch on a lot of interesting points. The first installment of abyssea did sort of suck. Fortunately, there was exp to get there, gil to make, mini quests, and a large amount of new gear. By comparison, VW drop rates suck. Whats more, is that we won't be seeing a level cap increase to 125, so the odds that I will be able to go back and solo the drops I need from the NMs that people are done with are nil. Which means that there is a 99% chance that they are either coming out with far better gear, or they are planning on changing the whole thing.

In the case of relic holders, they can feel pissed that they had to continue to work on them to keep them relevant. I don't feel like keeping your relic relevant should be nearly as hard as building it ws in the first place, but thats another topic. when most people built them, it was a safe bet that they were going to be the best weapon around for a very long time (and they were for the most part). In the case of VW, there are actually pretty good odds that you could start now trying to get a toci's harness, and have something better come out before you ever get it. We know that they have new nyzul, legion, etc. Do you think all those events will just drop magic spells, and metal plates?

As for the crafters.... really? the crafters? SE could have made the NM's drop abjurations or something, ask them why they didn't.


Oh, and saying things like "your words represent only yourself" works both ways. In this case, most people probably disagree with you. I doubt its because they are lazy or impatient. There are far more gratifying games to play for that sort of person.

[Zinato]

"Great" gear is very common now, and easy to get. maybe if u worked on 1 job instead of 12, and actaully stayed with a group of people for 5 seconds instead of bailing when it became somewhat of a grind to get your empy or ochain, on a job or 2 that u picked. If u actually worked on something difficult besides something nubsauce for the years this game has been out ( or months to weeks even is only what is required for a good weapon in abyessea if u have 1 or 2 friends), maybe u wouldnt be so inclided to whine about how people dont invite people without "elite" gear. Try leveling up bluemage, and getting all the magic. You will get invited regardless of empy or gear to any VW. Let me guess.... you are to lazy to learn all the blue magic, or are too lazy to get a good pld, or a good dd job w/ upgraded atmacite, or an empy, or a relic, or whm, or anything. Is it a wonder people dont invite your pink jacketed thf or your full perle war????

got issues with having friends or going to LS events? if u like this game so much, make a mule whm and/or bst, and farm yourself a duoable empy and gear. It is amazing to me that people who refuse to make a mule, are the same people who play this game for hours and hours, and still refuse to work with a LS, and dont have an empy or something to show for it, and whine at the rest of us for not inviting him.

they dont invite your pld, b/c without the new corsair roll (pdt-) they are bringing out, you would have died and ruined their run. derpa, they are brining out this roll b/c of people like u, so read patch notes? You got what u wanted.

Wow, that is quite an assumption. First off, at no point did I say I had issues getting into VW. What I said was my lesser geared jobs or those without empyrean/relic are not viable options for entry when they could be. I see no reason to go into what jobs I have or the gear on them, what I will say is the game is not built only for Hardcore. Everyone regardless of playtime, experience, gear, how many or few jobs they have should be able to enjoy all content, not just those in the right place at the right time.

[dragoon_apprentice]

Wow, that is quite an assumption. First off, at no point did I say I had issues getting into VW. What I said was my lesser geared jobs or those without empyrean/relic are not viable options for entry when they could be. I see no reason to go into what jobs I have or the gear on them, what I will say is the game is not built only for Hardcore. Everyone regardless of playtime, experience, gear, how many or few jobs they have should be able to enjoy all content, not just those in the right place at the right time.

ffxi is not still around b/c it is like WoW and u can get full gear in 2 months. People liek the challenge, and the direction this game is taking is that people need to work on a few jobsthey pick ,and assume their role. If you want to have every job, that is useful for filling in spots at events... sure. People who walk right into a run on a lesser geared job and expect to be as good and able to tank or DD as well as someone who a has been playing a job to get it to the maximum of its potential sort of defeats the purpose. Wait 2 more minutes on the shout, and u get an ochain pld, instead of risking ruining the whole run w/ a shmo pld

if u are not "hardcore" (meaning that u cant farm an ochain for some reason if u want to be pld so bad), you should not be tanking a whole VW run. 17 peopel depend on you, id rather have someone who knows their stuff and takes it seriously. if someoen is not "hardcore", go whm to VW or soemthing. sheesh

[Zinato]

You touch on a lot of interesting points. The first installment of abyssea did sort of suck. Fortunately, there was exp to get there, gil to make, mini quests, and a large amount of new gear. By comparison, VW drop rates suck. Whats more, is that we won't be seeing a level cap increase to 125, so the odds that I will be able to go back and solo the drops I need from the NMs that people are done with are nil. Which means that there is a 99% chance that they are either coming out with far better gear, or they are planning on changing the whole thing.

In the case of relic holders, they can feel pissed that they had to continue to work on them to keep them relevant. I don't feel like keeping your relic relevant should be nearly as hard as building it ws in the first place, but thats another topic. when most people built them, it was a safe bet that they were going to be the best weapon around for a very long time (and they were for the most part). In the case of VW, there are actually pretty good odds that you could start now trying to get a toci's harness, and have something better come out before you ever get it. We know that they have new nyzul, legion, etc. Do you think all those events will just drop magic spells, and metal plates?

As for the crafters.... really? the crafters? SE could have made the NM's drop abjurations or something, ask them why they didn't.


Oh, and saying things like "your words represent only yourself" works both ways. In this case, most people probably disagree with you. I doubt its because they are lazy or impatient. There are far more gratifying games to play for that sort of person.

I appreciate the fact that you took time to at least consider what I said, regardless of if you agree. First the most important thing I want to say is I am well aware I speak only for myself in my posts. What I seek from the last few posts I made to this thread is to inform, and at best persuade. Any argument is two sides attempting to provide evidence to convince either the opposing view point or a third party to agree with their own side. As I stated in my last post, I have said all I can at this time, anything more is repeating. All I can do now is let the viewer whomever that may be make a decision for themselves.

As for what I said in regards to a half complete system, we have absolutely no idea what is going to come, theories spread from x5 atmacite at lvl 25 each, to new brews from VW npcs. Its very hard to assume anything for this system and as stated in the "Tanaka returns" thread, making assumptions on what the DEVs are planning is unwise and it only leads to unneeded tension between DEV and player. Before we seek alterations to an event outside glitching and availability errors the least the players can do is wait for completed content. Much like Abyssea.

In terms of outdating/relevancy, the team stated they wish to continue to allow side grades much like in the days of 75, I believe this is what will come from new areas. Pieces of comparable stats with minor alteration allowing for players to pick and choose which events they like best for the gear they want. Now that we are 99, the only place for gear to go is to the side, without outright out dating current events. (In other words if Nyzul/Legion drops all gear that is better then Voidwatch whats the point of keeping Voidwatch updated)

As for crafters, while it may not seem to be so relevant also consider many of the players of the 75 days have left, and RMT is all but erased. Many of the staples of the game require crafting (food, ammo, meds) without continued modivation to level crafts for new players or for old players to maintain them many of these items will begin to disappear from the auction house. Also, those crafts not specializing in consumables need some items of value as well, the fact they gave new synths to crafters would be overshadowed if they were all suddenly undesirable. Granted, I will acknowledge the crafting argument is weak but, how would you feel if your big cash cow became, nothing more then a burger on the dollar menu?

Again, I do appreciate that you took the time to at least consider what I've said. Thank You.

[Zinato]

ffxi is not still around b/c it is like WoW and u can get full gear in 2 months. People liek the challenge, and the direction this game is taking is that people need to work on a few jobsthey pick ,and assume their role. If you want to have every job, that is useful for filling in spots at events... sure. People who walk right into a run on a lesser geared job and expect to be as good and able to tank or DD as well as someone who a has been playing a job to get it to the maximum of its potential sort of defeats the purpose. Wait 2 more minutes on the shout, and u get an ochain pld, instead of risking ruining the whole run w/ a shmo pld

if u are not "hardcore" (meaning that u cant farm an ochain for some reason if u want to be pld so bad), you should not be tanking a whole VW run. 17 peopel depend on you, id rather have someone who knows their stuff and takes it seriously. if someoen is not "hardcore", go whm to VW or soemthing. sheesh

That is the exactly what the DEV team is trying to avoid. Ochain =/= Good PLD same holds for Aegis and for that matter Empyrean and DD. There are perfectly capable players with max magian weapons instead of empyrean, some even superior in flexibility within their job. For example a WAR who can tank (PDT, MDT, DT gear) and DD, even if the numbers don't match that perle WAR with Ukon. Empyrean/Relic =/= Good player, and players shouting should not expect or assume that. Conversely, lack of Empyrean/Relic =/= doesn't mean a player is not still well geared. Here is a hypothetical to consider, 5/5 +2 Ravager WAR with Ukko or a WAR with the same 5/5 +2 ravager but also -40% DT with upheaval and Magian PDT GA 99, in a situation where tanking may become needed and fanatics is unavailable? (If you include fanatics, may as well let the BLM tank)

[dragoon_apprentice]

That is the exactly what the DEV team is trying to avoid. Ochain =/= Good PLD same holds for Aegis and for that matter Empyrean and DD. There are perfectly capable players with max magian weapons instead of empyrean, some even superior in flexibility within their job. For example a WAR who can tank (PDT, MDT, DT gear) and DD, even if the numbers don't match that perle WAR with Ukon. Empyrean/Relic =/= Good player, and players shouting should not expect or assume that. Conversely, lack of Empyrean/Relic =/= doesn't mean a player is not still well geared. Here is a hypothetical to consider, 5/5 +2 Ravager WAR with Ukko or a WAR with the same 5/5 +2 ravager but also -40% DT with upheaval and Magian PDT GA 99, in a situation where tanking may become needed and fanatics is unavailable? (If you include fanatics, may as well let the BLM tank)

lawl
hypotheticals
opinions
internet chat over
facts are fun for everyone

[Neisan_Quetz]

What the fuck am I reading? A player wearing bad gear sucks, period. A player with good gear that doesn't know how to use it sucks, period. Their is no difference between them, neither knows wtf they're doing.

There are bad players with Ukon/Brovura, but there are no good players fulltiming perle or full Emp+2.

[Brolic]

That is the exactly what the DEV team is trying to avoid. Ochain =/= Good PLD same holds for Aegis and for that matter Empyrean and DD. There are perfectly capable players with max magian weapons instead of empyrean, some even superior in flexibility within their job. For example a WAR who can tank (PDT, MDT, DT gear) and DD, even if the numbers don't match that perle WAR with Ukon. Empyrean/Relic =/= Good player, and players shouting should not expect or assume that. Conversely, lack of Empyrean/Relic =/= doesn't mean a player is not still well geared. Here is a hypothetical to consider, 5/5 +2 Ravager WAR with Ukko or a WAR with the same 5/5 +2 ravager but also -40% DT with upheaval and Magian PDT GA 99, in a situation where tanking may become needed and fanatics is unavailable? (If you include fanatics, may as well let the BLM tank)

what the hell is this shit

[Dreamin]

I dont think zinato understood what people are complainting here. We're complaining that SE is using resources working on stuff on VW that no one competent enough are having problems such as AOE death and lights capping. The issues are with the insane drop system that we have. I'm in the neighborhood of 0/200-0/300 on Pil and Qilin EACH. This Sat, I did Qilin and guess what I got 3/4 Neck Pieces (AGAIN) while there are people there that would/could use the neck pieces. But no, I ended up having to run away so the chest will despawn. Likewise on that same run, the same person got 2 boots (AGAIN). And I would have loved to pick up a pair myself.

The point is that these aren't hard fight at all. The AOE isn't an issue, capping lights isn't an issue. The ONLY issues are these insane drop. Camata seems to understands this, but for whatever reason, the DEV doesn't. Or they understands but they refuses to fix the damn system. People has asked for alternatives such as some sort of point system so that if you win let say 500 fight on the same NM, you should be able to BUY one of those ra/ex drop that you want. As it is now, lots of ppl on my server dont bother doing VW anymore because they have gone beyond 0/500+ without seeing any of the ra/ex that they wanted.

Failed drop system is going to be the failure of VW. Not because of AOE and capping Lights.

As a side note, as Neisan_Quetz said, Good Players will be good regardless whether they have Emp/Relic/Mystic or not. But Bad Players will always sux regardless of how easy SE makes the game to be. Do you know how many people I see walking around with full white/pink gears with Emp+2 and Relics now a day?

[Damane]

I dont think zinato understood what people are complainting here. We're complaining that SE is using resources working on stuff on VW that no one competent enough are having problems such as AOE death and lights capping. The issues are with the insane drop system that we have. I'm in the neighborhood of 0/200-0/300 on Pil and Qilin EACH. This Sat, I did Qilin and guess what I got 3/4 Neck Pieces (AGAIN) while there are people there that would/could use the neck pieces. But no, I ended up having to run away so the chest will despawn. Likewise on that same run, the same person got 2 boots (AGAIN). And I would have loved to pick up a pair myself.

The point is that these aren't hard fight at all. The AOE isn't an issue, capping lights isn't an issue. The ONLY issues are these insane drop. Camata seems to understands this, but for whatever reason, the DEV doesn't. Or they understands but they refuses to fix the damn system. People has asked for alternatives such as some sort of point system so that if you win let say 500 fight on the same NM, you should be able to BUY one of those ra/ex drop that you want. As it is now, lots of ppl on my server dont bother doing VW anymore because they have gone beyond 0/500+ without seeing any of the ra/ex that they wanted.

Failed drop system is going to be the failure of VW. Not because of AOE and capping Lights.

As a side note, as Neisan_Quetz said, Good Players will be good regardless whether they have Emp/Relic/Mystic or not. But Bad Players will always sux regardless of how easy SE makes the game to be. Do you know how many people I see walking around with full white/pink gears with Emp+2 and Relics now a day?

This sooo much this. While I got some stuff I wanted form VW (I consider myself lucky). I am out of voidstones... and I did VW since the Release. I am at over 500+ fights now. Lucky I got some stuff I wanted, but I miss some stuff I still want ¬.¬. I know people that are 300+ on kaggens body. Now I am 200+ fights on Akvan.... yaaaiiieee (and I didnt even start to farm the Zilart mobs...). This shit is really fucked up.

Even LS members come to help you, only to get their 2. identic ra/ex body and they cant give it to you...

[Zinato]

I should clarify it seems there is confusion. At no point did I oppose increased drop rates of any kind, in fact earlier in the thread I supported it. By all means players have every right to ask for any adjustments they deem worthy. Also I never at any point called players unwilling or choosing not to use Voidwatch in anyway lazy, as I don't think this is true. Additionally, I knew full well what I was doing speaking an unpopular opinion in a thread like this. "Finally, at risk of being hated by this entire thread, board and even my server."

Now then, at no point should empyrean/relic/mythic of any kind be a sorting feature on players. However, right now that is what is has become. I'm glad so many people have the top tier weapons and gear for every job they own, but the game is not only for you and other players deserve a shot at content too. I don't think many people are going to claim that a majority of players are well geared and good players. (also when I said "that perle WAR with Ukko" I didn't mean most players were white/pink/teal with empyrean, I ment even in white Ukko is often superior to all other form of WS) That said, if the game caters to the minority (the well geared ones) making all content require top tier items, that really will cause a decrease in subscriptions. Also I don't think that's what Neisan means as he said "there are no good players fulltiming perle or full Emp+2. " This implys only the highest class of gear and gear swaps and the knowledge to play a job make a player in the "good" catagory. The gear part wasn't even a part of my original statements it was a response to being told "great" gear is common which I bet many players would call false. But, since I bothered to respond, yes the DEVs want players without relic/mythic/empyrean to enjoy content too, even though a majority of the players doing Voidwatch and newer events won't allow that.

I am well aware the "fix" players seek is instant drop rate increases, a form of points to buy the items, a means to directly or indirectly give players r/x drops, or an overall pool. I just listed 4 ideas which would the DEVs pick if they had to? Who is going to complain if its not the method they seek? (I have been saying the forum is fighting itself in addition to fighting for a change.) What are the consequences of each change? Many posts simply say "add to pool spoils" quick fix end of discussion. However, would that not lead to the same item selling or the abyssea days allowing those with lots of money to gain what they seek and those without to still play the random chance game? (the very thing players were recently complaining about) On top of which I've said only the DEVs know how this will be concluded and that everyone only sees a part of the picture. (a image of water unsure if its the ocean, a pool or even a drinking glass) Players are jumping to conclusions and demanding this take priority over all other projects (even a simple programing change requires testing to ensure drops are coming at too high a rate, or that cures don't deal 9999 dmg) and that drop rates take priority over the content being enjoyed by as many as possible. For that matter we don't even know how loot is even distributed, there may be a reason some go 1/1 and others 0/400, as many have agreed the system is too random compared to other forms of event. Maybe plates take priority as a drop and if a plate drops and a body would have dropped the plate erases it. (if that's the case drop rates aren't the issue)

My goal here wasn't to protect the current system of Voidwatch, the goal was to was to point out that the DEVs are working at fixing Voidwatch, just not the things a player may personally want. (382 posts, including many repeating players, even the half dozen threads on the topic total come nowhere near a majority of our playerbase, this is not even a fraction of a percent. I said it once before, if players really feel the need for change many, many more people need to say something. In a "petition" of sorts each player has one vote which is cast by posting, and you can't speak for others just like you can't vote in an election for a non voting family member)
More importantly when a MOD comes to bring news of an adjustment and is met only with rage responses not even with actual feedback, just "that's not what I want go back and do it my way", that is when there are issues. It wouldn't surprise me in the least is the DEVs are keeping any adjustments on the subject a secret just to keep the peace. That is why I spoke, the attitude the thread gives is one of impatience, "My fix now or I keep raging" and after seeing the things said to the MODs bring good news, I choose to speak. I assure everyone they heard the request, repeating ourselves will do nothing but, frustrate everyone. If somehow my words were taken in any other way, I apologize.

[Dreamin]

Sorry if some of our posts to your previous responses sound harsh, but the biggest issues with SE isn't just this issue along. It's a clear pattern where they dont appeared to really listen to the playerbase's feedback at all. When the playerbase keep giving them feedback on things that needs or should be fixed but they go and fix something else that a much smaller population complaint about it's a major issues with those of us that actually took the time to post our feedback. [Or in some cases, such as the mess of the BST jug voting, seems to completely disregarded what the playerbase all together.]

[Zinato]

The problem goes both ways however, the reason for posting in the first place even at risk of such harsh responses, was because of the treatment the forum gave Camate after bringing news. (reading those seemed like nothing more then attacks on him and the devs, that's not cool and I'd do the same if it happened to a stranger on the street) If players are going to act in such a way, what reason does SE have to change anything? We were assured our concerns are being discussed, when and how it is acted upon is for a later time, it won't be this instant no matter how we feel. I want to try to ease frustration for players and DEV alike.

The first post was to try to highlight the good the changes do bring even if its not the final goal. The second was to inform of possible draw backs to a change in the system, in other words the same things the DEVs could be considering and therefore delaying response time. As much as we all wish simply replacing the number 1 with 10 would fix things I am 100% sure it is not that simple. The last post of actual information was ment to show there are current alternatives to bide time, for both completion of Voidwatch and possible adjustment SE may implement. After that it was just responding to responses. The gear shouldn't have even come up and when it did all really I ment to say was the DEVs want everyone to join in events, like how in the 75 era people in AF or random gear could still participate in Dynamis/Limbus/Nyzul and so on, after all you can't very well need top notch gear to get top notch gear.

Overall, the point to be made, though I most likely didn't make it clear enough. Is this is not the way to get what we want, much like the post I made earlier in the thread. (before the one that started this) The wording I chose was stronger because I felt that was what is needed for it to sink in, since the MODs message didn't seem to get through. I know its not the instant victory we all want but, they are looking into ways to help voidwatch before they resort to just changing things in both current, and most likely future installments. As I stated we only have part of the complete picture so, it is really hard for us to judge anything from our point of view as there are so many things we don't know. That puts us in a very bad place to make suggestions, and that only fuels the tension for this subject.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Now then, at no point should empyrean/relic/mythic of any kind be a sorting feature on players. However, right now that is what is has become. I'm glad so many people have the top tier weapons and gear for every job they own, but the game is not only for you and other players deserve a shot at content too. I don't think many people are going to claim that a majority of players are well geared and good players. (also when I said "that perle WAR with Ukko" I didn't mean most players were white/pink/teal with empyrean, I ment even in white Ukko is often superior to all other form of WS) That said, if the game caters to the minority (the well geared ones) making all content require top tier items, that really will cause a decrease in subscriptions. Also I don't think that's what Neisan means as he said "there are no good players fulltiming perle or full Emp+2. " This implys only the highest class of gear and gear swaps and the knowledge to play a job make a player in the "good" catagory. The gear part wasn't even a part of my original statements it was a response to being told "great" gear is common which I bet many players would call false. But, since I bothered to respond, yes the DEVs want players without relic/mythic/empyrean to enjoy content too, even though a majority of the players doing Voidwatch and newer events won't allow that.


If you are using 5/5 pink/perle you are lazy and a bad player when better gear that does not require maximum dedication is available and easy to make. If you are fulltiming gear you are lazy and a bad player and don't understand how game mechanics work. You don't need the best gear to not suck at this game.

[Zinato]

If you are using 5/5 pink/perle you are lazy and a bad player when better gear that does not require maximum dedication is available and easy to make. If you are fulltiming gear you are lazy and a bad player and don't understand how game mechanics work. You don't need the best gear to not suck at this game.

I think I am asking for trouble so, I simply ask this where do you put the line? I don't want to battle on something off topic, so I'll keep my opinion to myself. I am curious to hear what specifically you mean, if you are willing to share, if not I understand. Any job will do just a comparison around where the line is drawn.

I didn't/won't try to argue perle/pink/teal or those without macros are good.

[FrankReynolds]

Too long

It's all good to say it's gonna get better later, when later doesn't equal a year or two. People have been complaining about the same thing for months.

Right now it's like we're sitting in the stall right next to the Devs begging for some toilet paper, but they just keep offering to let us smell the perfume adds, and reading us uplifting stories from their issue of Oprah Magazine. That does't really help our situation.

When you see content laying on the ground bleeding out, you don't give it a haircut and a shave before you tend to the wound. We all fully understand that they "are discussing things". The time for discussion has long past.

Telling people they can't voice their opinions will always have exactly the opposite effect. If you really want players to stop telling off the devs, then do what the devs do. Ignore their questions, and derail the thread with posts about things that no one brought up.

[Frost]

Hmmm... Such a Zen moment in my head. I don't think I've ever disagreed with something someone's said, but agreed with the person saying it... (think about that for a while...)

Anyways.

To the comment that "poorly geared folks can be good"; or "people are being excluded because they are not 'best geared'."

First, since you appreciate analogies: If I am hiring a botanist to create a new stain of drought-resistant wheat for use in impoverished countries. Would I be wrong in being an elitist if I chose the guy with a couple degrees in Botany, Biology, Horticulture, Genetics, and has done work in the field, and has his own lab? Or the Pot-smoking hippy that knows a thing or two about growing plants in a basement?

Keep in mind it's MY reputation, and my funding and success of the venture rests on my decisions.

To relate that into general game terms... (and as someone has already pointed out) I have, as a leader, the luxury of patience. If I shout for Job "X", and someone in full perle (Pronounced: "PERIL") asks to join, I can assure you, if I shout just a little longer something better will come.

But that's not all.

Certain jobs, and certain specific shouts determine the success of a run.

Allow me to illustrate this point a little; you have two shouts:

"Voidwatch (Jeuno) T6 (Buburimu Peninsula) (Do you need it?). 6/18 (Anything) (welcome)"

"Voidwatch: Botulus Rex, 1/2 Ukon War, 2/4 Thundaja Blm, Need Wildfire Cors and Healers/Trigger jobs 6/18.

There's a couple things going on here:

1) The first one is letting anyone join.
2) The first one gives no indication there's a plan.
3) The first one through it's awkward use of Auto-Translate shows Communication might not be their priority.
4) The second one is showing signs of a currently working/acceptable strategy.
5) The specifics in the second shout show there's something specific about the Wars, either:
>> The Wars are there for high damage output.
>> The Wars need a certain degree of dedication/competence with the Warrior job.
6) The second shout shows there's been progress made in acquiring the jobs the leader thinks they need.

While I don't disagree that Voidwatch should be toned down a tad and the bar should be set at the "Average Player" I do take exception that the "Average Player" doesn't have at least one job that they can gear properly (I.E. No Perle, No Pink, etc...).

Requesting an Ochain or Aegis Paladin is not unreasonable. Considering how few good Paladins there are, the ones that are at least 'decent' have one or the other. The Good ones have both generally. Requesting one specifically shows not only YOUR GROUP, current members and future ones, that you're taking this seriously, but it sends a signal to the PALADINS that YOU are taking it seriously, upping the chances of getting a good one. You know what it does for bad paladins? It pisses them off. You know what a pissed off Paladin does? It shouts in Jeuno and on forums about "Elitism". You know what that does? You ever hear the old phrase: "Give em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves"?

And as to the drops...

Sure, you're right, clechè #2131225: "You can please some of the people, some of the time, but you can't please all the people all the time."

And there's a general divide on what people want that I think you're getting blurred. For every one person asking for an increase in drop rates, there's between eight to ten asking for "Add to Treasure Pool". They are not the same thing. Your insinuation that we don't think these things through is both kinda insulting and arrogant, as well as mildly ironic.

If you added "Add to Treasure Pool" the following happens:

>> When you get an item, congratulations you got the item, now you get a choice. It's STILL in YOUR chest it is YOUR item. But now IT'S YOUR CHOICE.

>> When you get another item you already have, you can share it or keep it if you want to spite the group. IT'S YOUR CHOICE.

>> If you're joining a shout group and they are 'selling' you the item and it drops in your chest, you're set, you have to be in the alliance either way. If it doesn't drop in your chest and you want to spend YOUR GIL on someone else's, IT'S YOUR CHOICE.

>> The worse thing that can happen happens in both cases: It doesn't Drop.

Crafters will still craft, for some reason people STILL buy NQ gear... Prices may go down a bit, but that helps the crafters' buyers. (There's two sides to that economic coin, supply, demand, etc...)

And in theory...

The drop rate on the item hasn't changed right???

[Frost]

I think I am asking for trouble so, I simply ask this where do you put the line? I don't want to battle on something off topic, so I'll keep my opinion to myself. I am curious to hear what specifically you mean, if you are willing to share, if not I understand. Any job will do just a comparison around where the line is drawn.

I didn't/won't try to argue perle/pink/teal or those without macros are good.

It's completely off topic. But I will draw your line for you, in this one post and say no more.

When dealing with strangers, the "basic" gear for any job should signify a level of competence for the task they need to accomplish, and show they're a good choice among all available candidates.

You've been shot, unfortunate, but there's a couple people around offering you help:
A stranger in a swimsuit offering to take you to the hospital on the handlebars of their bike. They assure you they're fast.
A man visiting from japan, who might be offering his help as a doctor, or asking if you need one, but you can't quite understand him.
A paramedic in uniform, with a portable 'crash kit', and an ambulance.

Now unless the paramedic was the one that shot you, I think your choice is obvious.

[Kristal]

Even something as simple as the ability to convert an EX item into a Heavy Metal Plate or pouch of Heavy Metal Plates (for the really awesome EX items) would go a very long way.

This wouldn't be a drastic change at all, since rewards would remain individual and the items themselves would remain horrifyingly rare, but it would make a White Mage's second Toci's Harness while a broloved bro is still 0/159 a much less depressing sight.

Yeah, that's one of the better solutions I've seen.

People keep hammering that they want to add the drops to the loot pool, but utterly fail to do the math and logistics involved.
1% droprate on 18 people equals 16.5% shared droprate, so SE would have to nerf droprate just to keep people from obtaining everything in a single week.

And then there's the treasure pool limitations... if you allow 18 people dumping everything (including the kitchen sink) in it, chances are that that precious Toci's Harness is assigned to a random person anyway, if not outright lost to the void due to the logjam preventing anyone from lotting in the first place.

Point systems similar to einherjar to buy Toci's Harness wouldn't work either, because then people would simple spam the most economic NM for it and get everything that way. Specific NM points might work better, but even then you would only be able to buy Ocelomeh Harness, not the +1 or Toci's...

[Frost]

Yeah, that's one of the better solutions I've seen.

People keep hammering that they want to add the drops to the loot pool, but utterly fail to do the math and logistics involved.
1% droprate on 18 people equals 16.5% shared droprate, so SE would have to nerf droprate just to keep people from obtaining everything in a single week.

And then there's the treasure pool limitations... if you allow 18 people dumping everything (including the kitchen sink) in it, chances are that that precious Toci's Harness is assigned to a random person anyway, if not outright lost to the void due to the logjam preventing anyone from lotting in the first place.

Point systems similar to einherjar to buy Toci's Harness wouldn't work either, because then people would simple spam the most economic NM for it and get everything that way. Specific NM points might work better, but even then you would only be able to buy Ocelomeh Harness, not the +1 or Toci's...

First a mild correction, there's a hierarchy to items, Rare/Ex items don't get forced out of the pool. But there would be a similar issue with junk getting forced into peoples' inventories and items getting lost from getting forcibly filled. Luckily though, you'd still have 5 min to pass/drop junk before it's lost.

Also I think there's a mild inaccuracy in the logic. You see, the 1% drop rate items are coveted right? So at least for a pickup group, the desired item would be sought after by people going to the run. In essence, the 1% drop rate remains, and is only altered in the event one person gets the item multiple times in a row. If it was a linkshell run I could see your math being relevant, but ironically, it's in favor of the spirit of the game isn't it? Working as a group to improve your odds?

So it is a win-win in either case, I.E. it only comes into play when there's excess, or when you're deliberately trying to help someone that's unfortunate.

[Kristal]

First a mild correction, there's a hierarchy to items, Rare/Ex items don't get forced out of the pool. But there would be a similar issue with junk getting forced into peoples' inventories and items getting lost from getting forcibly filled. Luckily though, you'd still have 5 min to pass/drop junk before it's lost.

Rare/ex items do and will get pushed out of the pool, but only by similar items. Mundane items like logs will not, but they will still clog player inventories preventing you from lotting. If there are more then 10 ex items, the first one is auto-dropped. Many such items have been lost to the quirks of the pool already, and they will do so in the future.
Voidwatch would make that situation even more likely with a potential 60 items dropping at the same time.


Also I think there's a mild inaccuracy in the logic. You see, the 1% drop rate items are coveted right? So at least for a pickup group, the desired item would be sought after by people going to the run. In essence, the 1% drop rate remains, and is only altered in the event one person gets the item multiple times in a row. If it was a linkshell run I could see your math being relevant, but ironically, it's in favor of the spirit of the game isn't it? Working as a group to improve your odds?
The only inaccuracy is that the droprate is actually slightly higher, due to the chance of multiple 1% items dropping.
If your example was the norm, noone would object to the current system since anyone that has the desired items wouldn't bother going to fight the NM. And just because an item might drop to someone that actually wants it, doesn't do away with the fact that it's still dropping. It might also have dropped to someone else, which means anyone wanting the item gets the droprate of the group of people not wanting the drop. Some people might just be joining for the heavy metal.

[Doombringer]

gonna have to agree with frost here.

if i'm doing it with randoms, it means i want the thing. so the thing would not get thrown into the community pool. if i were in a situation where i would throw the thing into the pool, i just wouldn't go with the randoms.

if i'm going with my linkshell, then it hardly matters. i'll just go cuz that's what the linkshell is doing. if i get some thing i want, super good. if i get some thing i don't want, or i already have.. is it really so terrible that i might toss it to a ls-mate?
like "oh no, that nin who's tanking the apademaks for my almace while his own kannagi is still lvl 85 might get whatever the thing is sooner because i got it and don't need it"
sounds like quid pro quo to me. i'd love the opportunity to pass off some rare body piece i'll never use. it's better than putting it in my storage with all my other trophies... hell, i'd prolly do that for a stranger. (assuming i was already there and the thing dropped.. dunno why i would go out there for a stranger)


also, i take issue with this notion that a high droprate is a terrible thing. people talk about how there "will be" no content if we can donate rare/ex voidwatch drops.. i submit, that forcing the same fight to be repeated 300 times, is not the same as having 300 times as much content. yah... think about that one..

[Frost]

OK fine let me put it this way since it's a question that doesn't seem to get asked very often...

What's wrong with getting something in under 20 fights?

Have we seriously gotten to the point in FFXI where people are actually saying a 5% drop rate is "too much"?

[Tamoa]

Chances that you get more than 10 ra/ex item in loot pool after one single fight, is next to non-existant. And if there's 2 Toci's Harness (yearightlol) and 8 Aliyat Chakrams in the pool already, and you've got a chakram that you don't want aswell - you know, just don't add it to the pool?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Aha, aha, ahahahaha

Please, do call me when you get 60 rare r/e from a single VW run... ever... If you're lucky you might see 20 of the common r/e drop...

[Nynja]

Requesting an Ochain or Aegis Paladin is not unreasonable. Considering how few good Paladins there are, the ones that are at least 'decent' have one or the other. The Good ones have both generally. Requesting one specifically shows not only YOUR GROUP, current members and future ones, that you're taking this seriously, but it sends a signal to the PALADINS that YOU are taking it seriously, upping the chances of getting a good one.

I have an aegis and my pld sucks...

[FrankReynolds]

I don't remember anyone requesting that all loot be added to the pool at once. Why would the guy who got an extra toci's be so lame as to not announce that he was about to add it to the pool, and make sure that the pool was sufficiently cleared first? And if he did, how would that be any more frustrating than if he had just dropped the item on the ground?

[Yarly]

If you are using 5/5 pink/perle you are lazy and a bad player when better gear that does not require maximum dedication is available and easy to make. If you are fulltiming gear you are lazy and a bad player and don't understand how game mechanics work. You don't need the best gear to not suck at this game.

only elitists use different gear for their jobs and we don't like elitists here!

[Kristal]

Aha, aha, ahahahaha

Please, do call me when you get 60 rare r/e from a single VW run... ever... If you're lucky you might see 20 of the common r/e drop...

What I described was a worst case situation that SE would not allow to happen. The fact that it CAN happen is enough to not give the option to allow it in the first place.

It's obvious SE wants this stuff to be rare and time consuming, asking for it to drop like candy is not going to work.
It's that christmas present you always wanted for years, not a grocery list item...

[Frost]

Show me one post where anyone is asking for the items to "Drop like candy".

[Neisan_Quetz]

What I described was a worst case situation that SE would not allow to happen. The fact that it CAN happen is enough to not give the option to allow it in the first place.

It's obvious SE wants this stuff to be rare and time consuming, asking for it to drop like candy is not going to work.
It's that christmas present you always wanted for years, not a grocery list item...

You seem to be under the assumption the drop rates for these items is higher than they actually are. Even with an add to pool option, rare drops from VW still won't 'drop like candy' and people won't be capping in a matter of days. It just means people getting multiple rare drops will stop sending them to the void if they feel generous, or they can still spite the group and destroy it anyway.

[Kitkat]

What I described was a worst case situation that SE would not allow to happen. The fact that it CAN happen is enough to not give the option to allow it in the first place.

It's obvious SE wants this stuff to be rare and time consuming, asking for it to drop like candy is not going to work.
It's that christmas present you always wanted for years, not a grocery list item...

I'm a little lost here, as I'm sure anyone who does VWNM constantly would be too. You're describing a worst case scenario that with current drop rates is absolutely impossible. Then you are using this as a tool to argue against allowing an add to pool option? I'd like to know what realm of possibility exist where that many of the items (most desired gear/weapons) will drop at such a rate that people will wear out the content and have nothing left to do.

The only way this would even happen is if, not only did they allow you to add to the pool, but they increased the drop rate and made TH effect the chest. This isn't what people are asking for all at once. People are asking for a change within the possibilities listed to make the drop rate accurate that doesn't have negative impacts at the same time, or feel like it is made to extend time cause they don't have the man power to constantly add good content to the game while providing fixes and balances. It's and either/or, not an all and now.

If TH affects the lights above and beyond the cap this is only a minor increase on an already horrible drop rate. The catch 22 on this is that if nothing else changes (aka check system or add to pool option) then all this is really doing is upping the chance the item still goes to someone who already has it for the 3rd or 4th time in a row.

If instead they add a check system, this does not mean they will automatically instate an additional function to the chest propagation that it cycles to someone else instead. Knowing SE it will instead just act like that one individual killed the NM solo. That was the 1/x chance it would pop in a chest per fight and just because that person already had it they instead got another log while everyone else in the alliance rolled a 0/x chance to get it.

There is always the option that if they give an "Add to pool" option with a "Destroy item" option, this means it will do something that Abyssea did a wonderful job of undoing: bring people back into a grouped community with LS structure. Face it, while VWNM does a great job of bringing random people together there is always 1-4, if not more, you would rather not have to deal with in that group. This means you're more than likely to do 1 of 2 things: destroy the item or drop yours just to obtain it again just to remove the chance they might get it. Yes, my glass is half empty so people are spiteful enough to do this. Where as the LS will be more inclined to help other members, but I'm sure the spitefulness will still exist all the same. No LS is perfect.

Knowing SE they would more than likely just rather increase the drop rate, plain and simple while adding destroy item option. Downside being it is only an artificial increase since it doesn't fix the problem that people are getting multiple of the desired items. It then only makes the increase look like it should have been in the first place had they kept the current loot distribution and just added a rare/ex check instead with a roll over, but still not add to pool option. The primary difference from now being you'll see more "hey....I got XXX item again......5th time, sorry everyone."

Personally I wouldn't want a straight out drop increase to the base. I would mostly prefer they add a check system with possible roll over to another individual if anything so that everyone is really getting a fair chance at the item. The current system doesn't do this because only a few are getting the item multiple times while others will go days/weeks without ever seeing the body in their chest, but see someone say they got it again. SE is only tossing dirt in these peoples faces by adding a "destroy item" option instead of fixing the primary gripe about the loot distribution as it currently stands.

[Runespider]

The sad part really is that not only will they not fix this but they will make the same mistakes in Legion and everything else this team adds after.

[Arcon]

The sad part really is that not only will they not fix this but they will make the same mistakes in Legion and everything else this team adds after.

Explain how you got to this conclusion please. Because, unless the last week has been a hazy dream to me, they've already announced enough of Legion to know that's not the case. The only thing that isn't confirmed yet is the actual drop rate of the NMs in there, which has nothing to do with the loot distribution (which is also known) and is only a part of the overall spoils of the event. And even if the actual drop rate was as bad as HQ VW drops, it would still be a lot better overall, because you can do several NMs each run. A 1% drop chance would thus turn into a 10% drop chance, during the course of the run. Which means, every 10 runs (every five hours of doing the content) on average you should see a HQ item drop. It may sound a lot to some people still, but I can't honestly say that I would be complaining about it. And that's still assuming only a 1% chance, we'll have to see how it actually pans out.

[Aequis]

Just adding my voice to the points system consensus. Though I feel the ship has already sailed, so to speak, and they won't retroactively change it now.

I think my most worthwhile drops so far have been a Comet scroll and the Scaemol band from Akvan? My partner has been using Rubicund cells on pretty much every pop of an NM that drops something worthwhile, and he's gotten one Oynos dagger (incidentally, when he didn't use cells). That's out of every city run we've done (currently on Jeuno T3s) and multiple pick-up groups we've joined.

It's just very frustrating, and I'm not really sure why a points system wasn't implemented at the start. It's such a glaringly obvious solution to the drop rate, while keeping items non-RMT/sellable (the crux of why SE is so adamant on making r/ex stuff drop out of the box at random), keeping interest and incentive in the event and, well...making the playerbase happy. *shrug*

[Chriskara10]

VW reward system made me back in November!! I came-back 2 weeks ago and i'm about to quite again!! Way to keep your costumer happy. keep it up SE, So i only play 2 month a year and only get $100 instead $600 a year!

[FrankReynolds]

Explain how you got to this conclusion please. Because, unless the last week has been a hazy dream to me, they've already announced enough of Legion to know that's not the case. The only thing that isn't confirmed yet is the actual drop rate of the NMs in there, which has nothing to do with the loot distribution (which is also known) and is only a part of the overall spoils of the event. And even if the actual drop rate was as bad as HQ VW drops, it would still be a lot better overall, because you can do several NMs each run. A 1% drop chance would thus turn into a 10% drop chance, during the course of the run. Which means, every 10 runs (every five hours of doing the content) on average you should see a HQ item drop. It may sound a lot to some people still, but I can't honestly say that I would be complaining about it. And that's still assuming only a 1% chance, we'll have to see how it actually pans out.

Some how I imagine Legion will be like Nyzul Isle, only with nothing but NMs. They will all be NMs that exist in other events, and they will have an incredibly low drop rate. You will get points that you can use on some generic sets of gear, but actual drops will be incredily rare. Just a prediction though.

[Arcon]

Some how I imagine Legion will be like Nyzul Isle, only with nothing but NMs. They will all be NMs that exist in other events, and they will have an incredibly low drop rate. You will get points that you can use on some generic sets of gear, but actual drops will be incredily rare. Just a prediction though.

This may be a stupid question, but isn't it already on the test server? I'm not, so I can't say.

[SpankWustler]

This may be a stupid question, but isn't it already on the test server? I'm not, so I can't say.

The content is up, but the rewards are not. Current reports are that it's hard to accomplish much with the size and quality of group that can be assembled on the test server, so even if the rewards were implemented, I doubt anyone could obtain them.

As far as I know, the monsters are basically everything large and disgruntled but with generic names based on the chamber. Lofty Behemoth, Mired Hydra, Soaring Vampyr, Veiled Amphiptere, Soiled Trousers, Dividing Cancer Cell, etc.

[FrankReynolds]

The reps on the JP forum are organizing a run at a specific time so that they can get enough people together to test it ( or at least that's what Google translate made it sound like). Maybe if we are lucky they will tell us what happened.

[Registeel]

Meh, I raise my white flag... LS member got Mekira Meikogai on his second Kaggen, and he doesn't even want it.

http://i42.tinypic.com/n1p8ie.jpg

[Tamoa]

Meh, I raise my white flag... LS member got Mekira Meikogai on his second Kaggen, and he doesn't even want it.


SE: "Working as intended."

[Babekeke]

The reps on the JP forum are organizing a run at a specific time so that they can get enough people together to test it ( or at least that's what Google translate made it sound like). Maybe if we are lucky they will tell us what happened.

If Camate and friends won't organise one for NA/EU people, then someone will have to post a thread on here to organise a run, preferably at the weekend. I doubt it would be hard to find enough people to do it. If it's not too late to apply for the test server, I'd even contemplate coming along too. I'd suggest post early for a run next weekend though, give plenty of time to get the word out.

[FrankReynolds]

If Camate and friends won't organise one for NA/EU people, then someone will have to post a thread on here to organise a run, preferably at the weekend. I doubt it would be hard to find enough people to do it. If it's not too late to apply for the test server, I'd even contemplate coming along too. I'd suggest post early for a run next weekend though, give plenty of time to get the word out.

I personally gave up on the test server because they more or less ignore player input about anything that matters. It was super buggy, and I could't get my controller to work either, so I could't even fall back on just screwing around as a reason to keep it up. I'll just read the Mangled Google translation. The JP crowd generally gives the same responses we do anyways.

[Dragoy]

Haven't had any issues with the test-server really...
Buggy how exactly?
I admit I haven't tried if my controller works at all with it, but other than that, there's only been untranslated parts in dialogue and the likes, nothing really buggy comes to my mind.

And after all, that is exactly what it is about: To find dem bugs. ^^;

[FrankReynolds]

Haven't had any issues with the test-server really...
Buggy how exactly?
I admit I haven't tried if my controller works at all with it, but other than that, there's only been untranslated parts in dialogue and the likes, nothing really buggy comes to my mind.

And after all, that is exactly what it is about: To find dem bugs. ^^;

Random crashes, macros not saving, and or not functioning. Made play-ability extremely low. Tried it on several computers. Gave up.

[Dragoy]

Oh, haven't had any of that and I've been there from the beginning basically. :S

Perfectly understandable that one would give up on it if it's behaving like that.
If the regular game works OK, I don't see why the test-client wouldn't, even after several installs on different machines.

Most peculiar.

[Kitkat]

Need to go into the test server client install directory and go to either Tools, ToolsEU, or ToolsUS (depending on where you are regionally) and you'll find the game pad configuration there. Personally I've had no issues with the test server in direct playability other than a few bugs with new changes they have added. If you are talking about how certain elements don't work like they do on the main server it is because they shut off any function that is not absolutely necessary to test what they are adding to the game (Besieged, conquest tally, campaign, etc). To get around having these active they have moogles that teleport you anywhere you would normally go using these shutdown elements.

Back on track, I haven't given up so much as I just haven't had much the desire to log on when I have time recently. It's hard to enjoy something you can spend hours doing and see the fault of a loot system 1-3 times within 12~16 fights if the item drops at all to anyone. I can understand SE trying to prolong the game now they have reached the new cap, but this is not the way to do it.

[Dreamin]

I'm more or less given up on VW. Most competent ppl on my server dont bother with VW either when most them are already 0/300+ on the same NM's and keep seeing new ppl go in and gets it on 1/3 or 1/4 run. It just pisses off more ppl than anything else.

And I've given up hope of SE ever truly give a damn about their players basically begging them to change this idiotic loot system. They have absolutely no reason to be in business at all the way they're treating us.

[Dew]

Vw drop system is dumb. Going 0/200+ on Kaggen, Pil, and Akvan on the bodies. 600+ jeuno T3 kills have yet to get a body of any kind from them. Seen so many people go 1/1 or 1/2 it's beyond retarded.

[Babekeke]

Vw drop system is dumb. Going 0/200+ on Kaggen, Pil, and Akvan on the bodies. 600+ jeuno T3 kills have yet to get a body of any kind from them. Seen so many people go 1/1 or 1/2 it's beyond retarded.

We'll probably find that once Legion comes out and SE no longer need to keep us doing VW to prevent us getting bored and quitting, that they'll increase the drop rates, or bring in a sensible system for obtaining the loot.

[Damane]

We'll probably find that once Legion comes out and SE no longer need to keep us doing VW to prevent us getting bored and quitting, that they'll increase the drop rates, or bring in a sensible system for obtaining the loot.

I really doubt that, they needed 2 year+ (or more) to up the droprates of salvage. I have a feeling Voidwatch will stay the same for 2 years or more. Interest in it is allready declining on people for different reasons:
1. Getting no dorps ----> frustration -----> fuck this event
2. Spamed the events ----> got some dorps -----> out of voidstones ----> fuck doing campaign nonstop to spam VW further
3. Got all the things they wanted -----> fuck VW

I go under point 2. While yes I got some nice dorps, i used up all my stones I horded since day 1 VW was introduced.... Doing Campaign everyday to stock on Voiddust is not something I am looking forward :X nor do I have the time for it (in addition to everyday VW spamming). So yeah I'm basicly fucked ._.

[Catsby]

I really doubt that, they needed 2 year+ (or more) to up the droprates of salvage. I have a feeling Voidwatch will stay the same for 2 years or more. Interest in it is allready declining on people for different reasons:
1. Getting no dorps ----> frustration -----> fuck this event
2. Spamed the events ----> got some dorps -----> out of voidstones ----> fuck doing campaign nonstop to spam VW further
3. Got all the things they wanted -----> fuck VW

I go under point 2. While yes I got some nice dorps, i used up all my stones I horded since day 1 VW was introduced.... Doing Campaign everyday to stock on Voiddust is not something I am looking forward :X nor do I have the time for it (in addition to everyday VW spamming). So yeah I'm basicly fucked ._.

Yeah? You forgot #4 though.

Come back from a 5 month hiatus ----> Expect a bunch of cool shit in the time you were gone ----> Do VW for a week and not get anything ----> Fuck this game.

at least GW2 is coming out this year.

[Runespider]

Some how I imagine Legion will be like Nyzul Isle, only with nothing but NMs. They will all be NMs that exist in other events, and they will have an incredibly low drop rate. You will get points that you can use on some generic sets of gear, but actual drops will be incredily rare. Just a prediction though.

Without a doubt, the drop rates will be horrific. Anyone that thinks otherwise is totally and utterly blind to their development ideas since Abyssea. If you do Legion you will be mainly doing it for the event itself, obtaining drops will be as bad, infact probably far worse than VW and the point system will be for items that don't really matter. Keep that inmind when you look at those dat miner threads for legion gear after the update, pretty good chance you aint getting any of them.

[Mahoro]

Without a doubt, the drop rates will be horrific. Anyone that thinks otherwise is totally and utterly blind to their development ideas since Abyssea. If you do Legion you will be mainly doing it for the event itself, obtaining drops will be as bad, infact probably far worse than VW and the point system will be for items that don't really matter. Keep that inmind when you look at those dat miner threads for legion gear after the update, pretty good chance you aint getting any of them.

I also expect the drop rates to be horrific. But I also expect that not all items will have the same drop rate. Like in VW when you are going after the glowy body, but you get the "B-list" drops like Sceamol Band, Pil Chakram, Fajin Boots, etc.

I am just hoping they don't make the drop rates for the rarest stuff even lower than the VW glowy bodies. Doing 4 runs of T3 VWNM's, you maybe saw one body in 16 kills and it would go to someone who didn't need it. If they keep the same drop rate, after a night of doing Legion, at least that body will end up in the shared treasure pool.

Wishful thinking I suppose!

[Anathiel]

So im a little late to the conversation, but having done VW all weekend for hours on end and the best drop I got was a single riftsand I feel straight cheated. Screw this loot system, I've spent so much gil and cruor on rubicund cells its disgusting and I know im going to keep on trying to do it because MAYBE this time things will be different.

[Frost]

So im a little late to the conversation, but having done VW all weekend for hours on end and the best drop I got was a single riftsand I feel straight cheated. Screw this loot system, I've spent so much gil and cruor on rubicund cells its disgusting and I know im going to keep on trying to do it because MAYBE this time things will be different.

Unfortunately what you're suffering right now is a condition known as "Battered Wife Syndrome"...

In a Video Game.

Balance!

Now you can be just as abused in the thing you use to escape your trouble!

[Babekeke]

I really doubt that, they needed 2 year+ (or more) to up the droprates of salvage. I have a feeling Voidwatch will stay the same for 2 years or more. Interest in it is allready declining on people for different reasons:
1. Getting no dorps ----> frustration -----> fuck this event
2. Spamed the events ----> got some dorps -----> out of voidstones ----> fuck doing campaign nonstop to spam VW further
3. Got all the things they wanted -----> fuck VW

I go under point 2. While yes I got some nice dorps, i used up all my stones I horded since day 1 VW was introduced.... Doing Campaign everyday to stock on Voiddust is not something I am looking forward :X nor do I have the time for it (in addition to everyday VW spamming). So yeah I'm basicly fucked ._.

Anyone wanting to get an empy to 95/99 will continue to do VW.

[Runespider]

Anyone wanting to get an empy to 95/99 will continue to do VW.

If most players give up on VW due to the stupid mess of a drop system they can't, unless they can solo it. Almost everyone has opted out of upgrading their emps so there aren't enough of them to fill an alliance per server to work together on it.

[Triffle]

The most annoying thing is getting the same item that you already have over and over again. 80+ runs, 16 Houyi's Gorgets and 5 NQ daggers until I finally spotted a pair of Fujin Boots. Then for giggles, the next run gave me another pair.

[detlef]

VW shouts are becoming less and less frequent, and the shouts that do occur have an unfortunately high failure rate. Not failure to obtain drops or even kill. Failure to leave town.

The changes involving capped lights from the start cannot come soon enough. Maybe we'll have to relive the days of job elitism, not that I care about that. But at least we'll be able to cap lights and kill with a smaller group. This will make it much easier to construct a working group for older VW content like cities/Jeuno tier 1/Zilart.

[Meiteron]

Anyone wanting to get an empy to 95/99 will continue to do VW.

Here's the big problem. The systems for Legendaries have always required the collective effort of a server in order to be sustainable, and this has gotten more important for each system. Finishing currency by farming Dynamis is slow. Finishing Alex by farming Salvage is nearly impossible. Finishing Metal/Rift by farming VW is a sick joke.

All three systems basically rely on everyone doing the events required, and pumping the necessary items into the economy, but the demand has to be there in order for this to be successful.

Relics benefit in two ways: it's actually feasible to make progress without buying anything. It's slow, but you can do it. In addition, there are several extremely useful options which people, even now, want to build for personal or LS use. There is constant demand, and even if currency supply and price starts becoming less inviting, you can go grind out your Relic the old fashioned way.

Mythics are just not good enough compared to available options to warrant the effort through utility alone; if you are building one it's probably to have a trophy. Mythics are Claustrums. Unlike Relics, though, they don't have a grinding option to fall back on. You might be able to build a Mythic just by running Salvage over and over but it will take much, much longer than a Relic, and not a lot of people are willing to do that for a trophy. Once we all moved past Salvage gear the supply for Alex vanished and that was basically it for Mythics.

Now Emps are in the same position. Here's a line from the last paragraph with some terms changed: Emp99s are just not good enough compared to available Emp90s to warrant the effort through their utility alone. If you are building one, it's probably to have a trophy. Much like Mythics, you can't grind one out manually. Maybe there are some crazy groups out there running Qilin 24/7 and giving all the pouches to a single player, but they do not represent the playerbase as a whole.

Consider the system Emp99s are built around. Is any individual honestly doing VW to make Emp99s? No. If you want a 95 you are buying it, or so much of it as to make the manual effort negligible. Players are already getting tired of these VW fights, and of fighting the system to get progress and enjoyment out of it. We have this entire topic complaining about drop rates. Stats on Legion and Nyzul gear are available and you better believe lots of people are chomping at the bit to abandon this system and move onto better things. A portion of my LS have not even started VW, they have ignored the entire system. 6 months of content ignored. I bet lots of people here know friends like that.

When it happens the majority of the playerbase are going to ignore Emps past 90, and this frustrates me. It frustrates me because it is all wasted effort, effort that has already been wasted on an entire system of Mythics which the smallest fraction of people use and are currently impossible to build. What really staggers me is how the system in Abyssea was so effective, and the Devs decided to change the progress path so abruptly to a system which they should know, from experience, doesn't work.

[Babekeke]

It's simple supply and demand. If noone does VW any more, and the empy holders can't solo it, or get enough ppl together to farm their own, they'll get desperate and offer more and more gil for the items. The higher the price is driven, the more likely people are to do VW since they might get a riftdross/HMP which they can sell for say 1 mil because that's what 1 idiot was offering. Lots of people then jump on the bandwagon trying to get these items to sell for 1 mil and then all of a sudden they have competition to sell them so the price falls again.

Swings and roundabouts, but people aren't going to just give up on VW completely, it'll just slow down.

On Phoenix already I find a lot of the VW shouts as they get full are just shouting for R/M/E DDs. They already just get zerged down even before the capped lights when you start >.>

[Ravenmore]

It's simple supply and demand. If noone does VW any more, and the empy holders can't solo it, or get enough ppl together to farm their own, they'll get desperate and offer more and more gil for the items. The higher the price is driven, the more likely people are to do VW since they might get a riftdross/HMP which they can sell for say 1 mil because that's what 1 idiot was offering. Lots of people then jump on the bandwagon trying to get these items to sell for 1 mil and then all of a sudden they have competition to sell them so the price falls again.

Swings and roundabouts, but people aren't going to just give up on VW completely, it'll just slow down.

On Phoenix already I find a lot of the VW shouts as they get full are just shouting for R/M/E DDs. They already just get zerged down even before the capped lights when you start >.>

No they start shouting like that and after 2 to 3 hours they start saying strong DDs. I watch one go the other day for a hour and a half at 17/18 its good stuff. Better yet look at WoEs there is gear from there that could go for mils and no one does it either. Only people in there most of the time outside of JP prime is afk JPs.

[Aequis]

Has there been any official word on whether they're looking at the Voidwatch loot distribution system, or even some recognition of the problem?

Since my one Comet scroll, I have gone about 0/84 on anything outside of synthesis mats using three Rubicund cells each time. It's actually starting to make me resent this game. I'm stuck in that place where I want to do Voidwatch to progress up the tiers (with a tiny, tiny hope of getting something from it) and on the other hand, I don't want to go anywhere near it because of how it makes me feel.

It's soul-destroying to walk up to that chest each time and check it, knowing before the list pops up that you have nothing again. Some runs I've been on people have hardly spoken because they're so sick and tired of doing this event, and they've gone far longer than I have without a drop.

Something needs to be done about it - for the general sanity of the playerbase if nothing else.

[Dreamin]

VW and WoE - destroying the spirits of the playerbase since 2011!

That's how each of these 2 failed events has felt to me. VW more so than WoE.

[Camate]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.


In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for their respective rare/ex item. (*edited at 3PM 2/2/2012)
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.


The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.

[Tamoa]

OH


MY


GOD




Yes please and thank you!!!!

[Greatguardian]

OH


MY


GOD




Yes please and thank you!!!!

This so much.

[Arek]

It's a nice addition really... ^^

And that brings a new motivation and economic feature, selling Tickets (and that's a personnal reward too :p)

[cidbahamut]

A step in the right direction, but the following makes me apprehensive.


Howdy!
In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)

Does this mean that in order to get a ticket, we will have to hold onto items we don't need or want?

For example, if I get a body piece that I will never ever use, I can't give it away, but if I put it in my mog safe then the next time I get one in my chest it will provide me with a ticket instead. However, if my inventory space is limited and I can't afford to hold onto a body piece I'm never going to use, I will simply keep tossing them as I get them and receive no benefit at all from this proposed change to the loot system.

This also fails to fix the problem of "I want to give that cool item to my friend so that they can use it".

[Dreamin]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.



In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.



The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.

Definitely a good 1st step towards what the overall playerbase wants and to resolve the frustrations the userbase have regarding this event.

However, what about to those of us who are just pure bad luck. What about giving each player (or maybe player who just rejected their entire chest) either the same or 'lower valued/tier' ticket item so that we can still benefit from the VW work. The problem many of us are having isn't that we're getting 2nd or 3rd ra/ex but we're just not ever getting any ra/ex and are only "rewarded" with Logs and Ores which most people dont even bother to take them out of the chest anyway.

I definitely can at least live with having the dev's proposed change but would the dev also consider those are us who are 0/250+ on ra/ex at all on many NMs. If those 250+ run would each resulted in 'something' that can be used towards the ra/ex item, then it certainly would keep people (like myself) for just giving up the event altogether.

[Zubis]

Pretty good solution actually. Dare I say it - balanced?

[Finuve]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.


In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.


The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.

This is really improved, however I think it should definitely be something like "Convert to ticket" instead of receiving the item, because if a mage body appears I do not want it, I just want to toss it, so I think even the first useless armor piece should be able to be to be a ticket it, as well as repeats to body pieces you did need and keep

all in all this is a huge step in the right direction, and if it gets modified as I suggested here itd pretty much be perfect

[casual]

This just basically fixed VW. Thanks for finally listening dev team!

[Finuve]

ALSO, 1 ticket = 100 HMPs? PLEASE!!!!

with the drop rate of bodies dropping I don't think 100 is even unbalanced either

[Nynja]

Does this mean that in order to get a ticket, we will have to hold onto items we don't need or want?

For example, if I get a body piece that I will never ever use, I can't give it away, but if I put it in my mog safe then the next time I get one in my chest it will provide me with a ticket instead. However, if my inventory space is limited and I can't afford to hold onto a body piece I'm never going to use, I will simply keep tossing them as I get them and receive no benefit at all from this proposed change to the loot system.

This also fails to fix the problem of "I want to give that cool item to my friend so that they can use it".

Do you use your storage, probably not...nows a good time to make use of it.

And why would you toss something with a .05% drop rate that falls to you?

[Renromix]

so you dont get a ticket unless you have that rare/ex item?
why not make it point system? like einherjar

[Doombringer]

A step in the right direction, but the following makes me apprehensive.



Does this mean that in order to get a ticket, we will have to hold onto items we don't need or want?

For example, if I get a body piece that I will never ever use, I can't give it away, but if I put it in my mog safe then the next time I get one in my chest it will provide me with a ticket instead. However, if my inventory space is limited and I can't afford to hold onto a body piece I'm never going to use, I will simply keep tossing them as I get them and receive no benefit at all from this proposed change to the loot system.

This also fails to fix the problem of "I want to give that cool item to my friend so that they can use it".

you can give your friend the ticket? sure this isn't ideal, but it is WAY fucking better than the way it works now.

[Tamoa]

It's a HUGE improvement, and I hope and pray heavy metal plates, riftdross and riftcinder will be included in this too.

Edit: To be honest, I didn't expect them to change anything at all about voidwatch after their "nope, not happening"-reply to our request for an add-to-pool option for items we already have. So to me, this came as a complete surprise, and a very pleasant one.

[Washburn]

Make it so we can trade tickets for the ADL items and ill think about logging in within the next month.

[Brolic]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.


In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.


The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.


i want you in my mouth

[saevel]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.


In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.


The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.

Thanks Camate. This represents a solid compromise from the current system and players wanting to put an item into the pool. Bravo and thanks SE.

[Aleste]

Stuff

Brilliant, though I'm confused why the sudden change to sellable/tradable.

[Zubis]

http://thesoulstillburns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/13921600.jpg

[wish12oz]

http://thesoulstillburns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/13921600.jpg

This is definitely a step in the right direction SE, and hopefully, you just let us convert any ex item to a ticket, whether we have the item already or not. And also: I want to buy heavy metal plates and riftdross with tickets.

[cidbahamut]

you can give your friend the ticket? sure this isn't ideal, but it is WAY fucking better than the way it works now.

The way I'm reading it right now it sounds like I have to get the first item and wait on a second to drop before I can get a ticket that can be traded. If someone's tight on inventory space they aren't going to hang onto something they don't intend to use, or they'll just send it to a mule, which puts them right back at square one of getting the drop they don't need instead of a ticket. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but it sounds like the new system would be an improvement, but still needs work. I just don't want to see a half-hearted effort instead of a proper follow-through.

[Tile]

I'm in love with this, to bad its 6 Lux daggers late.

Why not a Different ticket per mob and not for item, That way if i do 150+ more Qilin I can still get Coruscanti after i trade in all the tickets from neck, Lux, and Fajin?

[Nynja]

From what I'm understanding:


*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
if you have X item, you'll get X ticket, and when you have 5-6 of X ticket, you can redeem for X. Obviously this is useless to you, but you can bazaar/trade X ticket, and your friend who wants X can hunt down 5-6 X tickets to get X.


With porter moogles, and the ability to send r/e junk to characters on your POLID, there is absolutely no reason to not have any inventory space anywhere to hold onto a heka's kalarsis that you wont use.

[Geabrielle]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.


In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.


The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.

Wow! Thank you so much :)
Would it be possible to add plate pouches and cinder/dross clusters to the ticket program? I wouldn't be adverse to 10-15 tickets for such a thing if the amount is between 10 to 25 items per pouch, kinda like the cotton purse randomizer for Salvage. This information is much appreciated.

[Lushipur]

thanks dev teams for listening to us :D

and, please, add plates and pouches too to the list of item to buy with ticket

[Nightfyre]

Really great news, glad to hear this.

[Karbuncle]

Well I'm just echoing the "I'm quite happy about this" sentiment.

The idea of being able to trade in tickets for another Item is fun. Hopefully they'll think it over quite thoroughly so people can work toward any goal... For example, If they feel 5-6 Tickets is too "easy" to earn a Coruscanti, Instead of removing Coruscanti, Simply make Items exist in tiers... Like say for Qilin:

1 Ticket - Heavy Metal Plate
3 Ticket - Houyi's Gorget
5 Ticket - Fajin Boots
7 Tickets - Lux Pugio
9 Tickets - Heavy Metal Pouch
12 Tickets - Coruscanti

(C > P From my BG post)

Even if it took 30 Qilin Tickets, I'd still be ecstatic that my Boxes of fail-items are working toward a realistic reachable goal.

I hope the DEV Team makes haste with this implementation, Even if they only implement in stages (I.E Tier 1~4 City Paths on one update, Tier I~III Jeuno one update, Tier I~III Zilart another, and TIV~VI finally) and so forth...

[Finuve]

I'm in love with this, to bad its 6 Lux daggers late.

Why not a Different ticket per mob and not for item, That way if i do 150+ more Qilin I can still get Coruscanti after i trade in all the tickets from neck, Lux, and Fajin?
uggh I just realized this, that will be incredibly annoying if its 1 ticket per item, granted if you could use your ticket on any item, people would just horde their tickets

[FrankReynolds]

This is really improved, however I think it should definitely be something like "Convert to ticket" instead of receiving the item, because if a mage body appears I do not want it, I just want to toss it, so I think even the first useless armor piece should be able to be to be a ticket it, as well as repeats to body pieces you did need and keep


As long as you need items from VW, you would keep items you don't need. IE. you don't want a mage body, but you want a melee body. So you hang onto the mage body so that you can get tickets to trade to people who want them in exchange for tickets for the body you want, or gil to buy the tickets you want. In that way, the mage body isn't storage -1. It is a place holder for the body you want.

This might actually get me to do VW.

[Karbuncle]

The Tickets will be tradable and sellable.

They're not going to hand you the item on a silver platter. If you can't get the items you want, Buy the Tickets. People won't hoard Tickets for items they don't want or need. Some may do it just for the gil.

For instance, i Can see T3 Jeuno Path Tickets being worth a good price. There will be a supply of them.

IDK, Theres so much positive about this coming up that i can't find a negative.

[Nightfyre]

One thing I would appreciate some clarification on: how might the "different types of tickets" work? I understand it's all very tentative right now but whatever information you can give would be great. I'm hoping that the ticket types are fairly broad (say, based the tier from which they drop, possibly rarity of drop but I think this will lead to issues unless you can directly exchange more common tickets for a smaller number of rarer tickets) to avoid issues where tickets that could be turned in for a fairly niche item will be extremely scarce because of the lack of demand for items from certain NMs.

Also, it would be great if we could turn in items we already have for tickets too. I've got a few Voidwatch items sitting in storage that I'll likely never use, converting them into something of more value to me would be nice.

[Dreamin]

Before everyone gets overly too happy, remember SE's proposed change only will give you a ticket if you destroy a ra/ex item from chest. Which still doesn't solves the underlying problem for those of us that has absolutely no luck (looking at 0/250+ on qilin, 0/250+ on pil, and 0/150+ on Kaggen). A point system or maybe let those that completely destroy the chest also gets a ticket would help resolve this last bit of issue for those of us who has absolutely zero luck at these ra/re drop. And Yes to 1 ticket type per NM or path/chapter would help eliminate a lot of additional storage requirements too (or make them into KIs).

[Maurauc]

As far as I can tell, it just meant things like items from Kaggen will be put onto one ticket, and you could trade one item 6 times and get the other. Still an improvement, but keeps the personal reward, which is what they wanted.

[Seriha]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.



In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.



The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.

I share the sentiment of this being a step in the right direction. To further that, I imagine others share the sentiment that this should become a high priority on the current dev scale since VW is actually live. The longer it isn't in implementation, the more likely people won't want to do VW until it is.

[Camiie]

Sounds like a pretty interesting change. Once again I offer kudos(kupos?) to the devs for being willing to move in our direction. As someone riding the Empy bandwagon, I would second the motion to let HMPs and dross/cinders be obtainable with tickets.

[Nightfyre]

As far as I can tell, it just meant things like items from Kaggen will be put onto one ticket, and you could trade one item 6 times and get the other. Still an improvement, but keeps the personal reward, which is what they wanted.

The problem with this that I touched on in my edit is that some NMs only have drops with fairly niche applications. For instance, how many people do you know who are just dying to kill Aello or Ocythoe? A system with broader scope would be preferable in this case.

A system in which tickets are sorted by tier allows relatively broad application and covers most of the desirable drops. However, there's still potential for scarcity of certain tickets here. Not a lot of people are farming T3 cities NMs, so say... a PUP looking for the turtle's animator (I don't even know if it's worthwhile, just an example) is going to be out of luck. This also fails to take note of the relative scarcity of the drop you're destroying (glowing items vs common drops) unless there's an additional layer of complexity to the system.

Tickets divided by scarcity of drop (one type for ultra-rare glowy stuff, another for common) allows the broadest scope while respecting the value of the item destroyed. However, unless you're able to efficiently convert different types of tickets into other types of tickets there will likely be issues with accumulating enough of the most valuable tickets to trade them in for the most valuable items. I think this is the best option (barring something I didn't think of!), but it really needs a way to convert one type of ticket into another (say, 6 common tickets = 2 rare tickets = 1 ultra-rare ticket) to allow the system to benefit us in the way it needs to.

Anyway, hopefully we'll see an official response on this soon.

[Kenthedeviant]

From what I'm understanding:


if you have X item, you'll get X ticket, and when you have 5-6 of X ticket, you can redeem for X. Obviously this is useless to you, but you can bazaar/trade X ticket, and your friend who wants X can hunt down 5-6 X tickets to get X.


With porter moogles, and the ability to send r/e junk to characters on your POLID, there is absolutely no reason to not have any inventory space anywhere to hold onto a heka's kalarsis that you wont use.


On the SURFACE, this seems like a great idea, but lets call a spade a spade here. Take for example, Toci's harness, which many of us are 0/300+ on now. Once virtually anyone gets this item, they never want to look at pil again, and therefore will never get the appropriate ticket by getting a "second drop." This is assuming that each item does require it's own respective ticket, of course. Camate, can you clarify and confirm that say if we got Aliyat chakram multiple times, then it's ticket can only be redeemed for the same thing, or could it go toward Toci's harness or another pil drop? Some clarification on the system would be great.

[Phafi]

You should require people to have progressed through voidwatch to the certain point before being able to obtain tickets(eg: can't get a ticket toward a Coruscanti or something if you have only got a Jade Stratum Abyssite III)

[Juilan]

We all know that when we get a ticket it will give you a t shirt telling you thinks for thinking the dev does something... they need more than this to resolve my malice

[Nynja]

You should require people to have progressed through voidwatch to the certain point before being able to obtain tickets(eg: can't get a ticket toward a Coruscanti or something if you have only got a Jade Stratum Abyssite III)

haha I just made a joke about that to someone in game...and I'd be ok with it :D
do the content instead of skipping it FFS

[Mahoro]

The way I'm reading it right now it sounds like I have to get the first item and wait on a second to drop before I can get a ticket that can be traded. If someone's tight on inventory space they aren't going to hang onto something they don't intend to use, or they'll just send it to a mule, which puts them right back at square one of getting the drop they don't need instead of a ticket. Maybe I'm just reading too much into it, but it sounds like the new system would be an improvement, but still needs work. I just don't want to see a half-hearted effort instead of a proper follow-through.

Oy gevalt. Even if this IS the case, and Camate can speak to that better than me, all this means is.....if you are spamming Akvan hundreds of times for Heka's Kalasiris, you make room for Omphalos Bullet or Sceamol Band. If you can't afford TWO inventory spaces, at BEST you likely don't even have room for Cells and at WORST you are not removing everything from the chest and therefore forcing everyone in your ally to wait five minutes for Rift repop. :(

[ishvara]

How about letting people that already have a piece they cant use, for example a Heka's Kalasiris and trade it for a piece they can, or the aforementioned tickets. Let me guess, this could circumvent the "balance", since other people already dropped/tossed these type of items.

[cidbahamut]

Oy gevalt. Even if this IS the case, and Camate can speak to that better than me, all this means is.....if you are spamming Akvan hundreds of times for Heka's Kalasiris, you make room for Omphalos Bullet or Sceamol Band. If you can't afford TWO inventory spaces, at BEST you likely don't even have room for Cells and at WORST you are not removing everything from the chest and therefore forcing everyone in your ally to wait five minutes for Rift repop. :(

It's not an issue for me personally, but it is a flaw in the system that needs to be considered. People are unlikely to hoard items they have no intention of ever using, preferring to drop them than worry about sorting out their storage situation. You can downplay it all you like, but the simple truth of the matter is that it's more convenient to simply toss the item you don't need and many people will do just that.

We need more details on this new loot scheme regardless though.

[Tile]

glad to seem im not the only one that wants to tickets based on Mob and not item (with different amounts for each)

Camate please pass along word that we love the Dev team alittle more, and I would love it if you mentioned the Mob based tickets to them.

[Cybernetic_Empire]

Remove the requirement of having to have the item first before you can get a ticket and this will actually be worthwhile. Otherwise, we're going to have to use up valuable storage or spend time sending gear to and from mules. I don't know about anyone else, but when I log in I want to play Final Fantasy XI not Inventory Management XI.

I also echo the sentiment that tickets should be redeemable for Empyrean weapon upgrade items. Either that or drastically increase the creation of Heavy Metal Plates. There's nothing more irritating than being able to make progress on an Empyrean weapon for zero gil investment (so long as you put in the work), up to level 90, and then get sucker punched with a trial that requires anywhere from 100 to 200 million gil to realistically complete.

[Frost]

My only concern is that all the tickets would be burned on plates...
If they have different tiers of tickets, where the bottom tier is only used for plates, I'd be happy.
Though pricing may self-regulate those issues...

I'm skeptically happy right now. Just going to wait and see how this pans out...

[Cowardlybabooon]

Heavy metal and riftdross are already sellable. This change should increase participation so there will be more in the market. No need for heavy metal tickets. I love this change.

[Vold]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.



In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.



The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qj2pXikeDRg

Because it's true.

[Cybernetic_Empire]

The more I look at the Dominion Trophy system, the more I think the proposed Voidwatch ticket system should emulate it (except that this time the gear is actually worth a damn). Plus it's a hell of a lot less convoluted and inventory friendly than coding tickets for each individual item.

1. Make the ticket conversion available even if you don’t already have the item.

2. Make the tickets storable with an existing VW NPC and retrievable from said NPC.

3. Make the tickets bazaarable.

4. Make the tickets tier based. (Lump cities together Tier 1-4, Jeuno Tier 1-6(?), Zilart Tier 1-3(?))

5. Make hard to get gear worth more tickets than the common gear drops. (I’m talking conversion out of the treasure chest, not when you go to trade in your tickets for the gear you want.)

6. Allow lower tier tickets to be traded up for higher tier tickets and vice versa.

This is the best I could come up with if the devs insist on layering it on top of the current drop system.

Edit: Stuff about Dominion mostly removed, too tangential.

[Nynja]

What the fk is this garbage about "MY PRECIOUS INVENTORY". You have porter moogles, you have the means to send most rare/ex stuff you rarely use / dont use but dont want to toss away to other accounts on your POLID, you have 80 safe / 80 storage / 80 locker / 80 satchel / 80 sack / 80 inventory, the latter 3 are all available to use in the field, and you cant devote 10 spots in your storage (you know that stuff that sits in your home nation mog house that you never use because you HP port jeuno) to let a kalarsis/meikogai/harness/etc/etc rot?!?

come on...

[Neisan_Quetz]

Seriously if you can't hold drops in chest run out of range instead of making everyone wait on you.

[cidbahamut]

My opinion is that this is a nice gift from SE, so why complain about it?

Things will only get better, nothing is getting worse.

Thanks SE, for doing some good!

This isn't a gift, it's something that should have been in place on day one but wasn't.

[Vivivivi]

*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.




Awesome. It still preserves the fun reward and instant gratification of obtaining a cool rare/ex item, but removes the hopelessness of doing VW endlessly with no rewards. A sort of guarantee that a large time investment will pay off. Looking forward to these changes.

[Cybernetic_Empire]

What the fk is this garbage about "MY PRECIOUS INVENTORY". You have porter moogles, you have the means to send most rare/ex stuff you rarely use / dont use but dont want to toss away to other accounts on your POLID, you have 80 safe / 80 storage / 80 locker / 80 satchel / 80 sack / 80 inventory, the latter 3 are all available to use in the field, and you cant devote 10 spots in your storage (you know that stuff that sits in your home nation mog house that you never use because you HP port jeuno) to let a kalarsis/meikogai/harness/etc/etc rot?!?

come on...

Or they could just make it so you don't have to hold onto stuff you don't want to get tickets. Which leads to less hassle for people like me and apparently less butt hurt from people like you about people like me.

[Tile]

Awesome. It still preserves the fun reward and instant gratification of obtaining a cool rare/ex item, but removes the hopelessness of doing VW endlessly with no rewards. A sort of guarantee that a large time investment will pay off. Looking forward to these changes.

the problem is getting the # of tickets for the rare item you want, think its more likely that you'll get the item yourself then 5-6 people will get lets say Coruscanti for the second or third time and will give/sell you ticket.

thats why it should be based off mob. get 3 Qilin Tickets you get Fajin Boots, get 12 and you got youself a Coruscanti. Plates and plate pouchs are not r/ex so you wouldn't be able to get them with tickets

[Kenthedeviant]

Clearly theyre not going to make several hundred tickets for each individual item that drops in VW, so the REAL question is exactly how theyre going to implement the tickets. Most VWNM's have a common drop, a moderate drops, and a VERY rare drop. it would make a lot of sense to simply make 3 ticket types based on rarity of items, or, better yet, just make ONE ticket type, and have the rarer items simply require more tickets. These are just suggestions, but until we get a definite answer from the Dev team, it could be virtually anything, so we shouldnt get our hopes TOO high until we have an answer.

[Tile]

Clearly theyre not going to make several hundred tickets for each individual item that drops in VW.

But thats what Camate's post says

*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.

[Karbuncle]

But thats what Camate's post says

Yah? but it also says there:


Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.

Sounds like "1 Ticket Per NM" type deal. Or, Its a tier System. I.E You get a Ticket based on the Tier of the item, Not the Specific NM.

For instance, Qilin drops would be tiered like...

Houyi's Gorget - Tier 1 Ticket
Fajin Boots - Tier 2 Ticket
Lux Pugio - Tier 3 Ticket
Coruscanti - Tier 4 Ticket

And Kaggen would be...

Mantis Eye - Tier 1 Ticket
Phasmida Belt - Tier 2 Ticket
Mekira - Tier 3 Ticket

And Pil would be like...

A. Chakram - Tier 1 Ticket
D. Sollerets - Tier 2 Ticket
Toci's Harness - Tier 3 Ticket

------------

You catch my drift, Meaning, You can't collect 6 Weak-Common items and expect a coruscanti. Alternatively, It could just be "1 Type of Ticket Per NM".

Theres a lot of possibilities and at this point speculation is meaningless, Not enough information given. The system has a lot of potential but i don't think they'll just be handing us Super-Rare items in exchange for 6 Common Items...

[Alhanelem]

Howdy!

I bring some news regarding the Voidwatch loot system, which I think you all will appreciate quite a bit.

The development team has been well aware of all of your frustrations when you friend hears you receive an item that they have been after for some time, but you are unable to pass it to them and have no choice but to toss it.

They have been looking into adjustments to the reward system extremely carefully to preserve the benefit of each person receiving a personal reward when participating, instead of having to lot against others. As a result, they are thinking about implementing the below type of system.



In the event that a rare/ex item drops to you when you already possess the item, it will be possible to exchange that item for a ticket (name pending)
Once you obtain a certain amount of these tickets, it will be possible to exchange them for a rare/ex item of your choice.
*There will be different types of tickets for different items and you will need to collect the respective ticket for the item you would like.
*The required number of tickets is still being looked into and there is a possibility of change, but currently we estimate it to be about 5~6.
Tickets will be tradable and sellable.



The development team feels that this will not destroy the meaning of having personal rewards, and though the drop rate balance will not be changed, even if you continue to have bad luck obtaining the item you wish, by collecting the tickets from your friends you will eventually be able to obtain the item.

Since there are a lot of rewards items, meaning a large amount of tickets to be created, we will start off by looking into implementing the hard to get items first. Please understand that it will take some time before this is all implemented.
THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOU

This is a GREAT idea! This will make voidwatch considerably less discouraging for a lot of people.

Just one thing: Sometimes people do not want the particular item at all, but someone else in the group does. I'd rather just have the ticket rather than have to take the item and have it rot in my inventory so that I can obtain tickets in the future.

[Tile]

Theres a lot of possibilities and at this point speculation is meaningless, Not enough information given. The system has a lot of potential but i don't think they'll just be handing us Super-Rare items in exchange for 6 Common Items...

think the Main point is we need some Clarification lol

[Zinato]

I would be wrong to take time to criticize but, then not also post in praise. So, while many have before me I still want to say thank you to the DEVs for this most welcome change. Additionally, I figure the tickets will have some form of sorting meaning the over all count would be comparatively low (by mob, drop tier, even by path tier perhaps) so at this time until more information is given I'm content to imagine 10-20 types at absolute maximum. I do also second (or third or thirtith) that the option should be given to change the first of a drop into tickets, for those not wanting the item at all. Also, if not too much trouble consider making them AHable? (just a small request no hard feelings if not just trying to cut down on bazaar clutter any chance possible) Again, thank you for this update AND for letting us know. I look forward to see how this idea develops as it get closer to implementation time.

*Also glad to see you back Camate, there were some scary rumors about you when the other thread went down for clean up.