Ukko's on test server?

[Alderin]

Can anyone report how bad the nerf is for those of you with access to Ukko's on the test server?

[Atoreis]

For now I excluded 25% and 20% crit rate bonus at 100TP and havent excluded 15% yet so its more than likely 15%.
It went down from 30% to 15% at 100TP then...
300TP is less than 40% so from 80% to less than 40%. Its #$%#$% bs.

[Tagrineth]

Oh no, it's in line with other Empyrean weapons now. Damn. So harsh. Poor Warriors.

[Atoreis]

Oh no, it's in line with other Empyrean weapons now. Damn. So harsh. Poor Warriors.

Nice trolling but I will answer anyway.

MNK has Impetus for 3min which boost crit rate by at least 10% and has some defensive capabilities.
NIN is not a pure DD and can take a big advantage from Innin on VW fights (85 Kannagi NIN I was parsing on last Kaggens had 1600 and 2000 avg :Hi)
CDC has DEX mod which let it cap dDEX by stacking DEX for WSC.

I parsed last Kaggens and wit 95 Ukonvasara I had avg 2250 and 2580 Ukko's.
SAM had 1980 and 2053 Shoha using Masamune.
I parsed Kaggen on test server today and avg Ukko was 1600.
SAM has now 30% stronger WS with 30% higher WS frequency.

[Suasuke]

I do not like the nerf. If anything you can balance the game by making other jobs ws's stronger. Not just make SAM stronger and mnk and war weaker. There is no balance in that, I do not see the point in making a merit ws better than the work we put into the empy trials and relic trials even. Ukko's and Smite, leave em alone.

[Alderin]

Oh no, it's in line with other Empyrean weapons now. Damn. So harsh. Poor Warriors.

Alright, go kill your 2x nm's to kill 25x Carabosse's and 2x nm's to pop 25x CC's in 2x days while everyone spends weeks farming 10-13 NM's to pop 1x nm that drops 2x shells or buds. Then come back to me and talk about why Ukon and Vereth shouldn't out-do the rest.

On that note, going to ignore Tagrineth's post because I am assuming she has neither the brainpower nor the skill to build one herself.

But yes, it seems the nerf has done the reverse effect as assumed it would. They have gimped the most pure DD job that you can get - a brute aka WAR to a point where they do not stand out from the rest.

SAM has the ability to pump out WS's like a prostitute on crack, with a meritable WS (not even obtained from a legendary weapon, and yes I know other jobs are in that category) that is able to out-DD the legendary weapons we spent so long to farm. News on the block is that SS can be nearly as heavy as Victory Smite, which is also wrong.

In other words, joe blogs who just burnt his SAM, with average gear can go ungimp his GK and pump out as much damage as someone who spent weeks killing worms and gnats in Tahrongi. Not to mention the 150M gil spent on upgrading it to the current cap.

In saying this I do believe Shoha was a blessing in disguise for SAM, I believe that this blessing should not have come with a nerf for the 2x current top dogs for DD.

MNK's nerf isn't that huge, as Atoreis mentioned - they have Impetus. Not to mention the nerf has only been tested to be about a 5% reduction. (Yes I am a vereth MNK also, and any nerf is bad, yet the results from tests show it isn't that huge a nerf).

If Atoreis's tests are on the money, then this is very bad news. Looks like the feared "SAM onry" days are coming back.

Time & effort spent is not balanced. Jobs perhaps moreso, but currently time spent does not = reward.

[Brolic]

Nice trolling but I will answer anyway.

MNK has Impetus for 3min which boost crit rate by at least 10% and has some defensive capabilities.
NIN is not a pure DD and can take a big advantage from Innin on VW fights (85 Kannagi NIN I was parsing on last Kaggens had 1600 and 2000 avg :Hi)
CDC has DEX mod which let it cap dDEX by stacking DEX for WSC.

I parsed last Kaggens and wit 95 Ukonvasara I had avg 2250 and 2580 Ukko's.
SAM had 1980 and 2053 Shoha using Masamune.
I parsed Kaggen on test server today and avg Ukko was 1600.
SAM has now 30% stronger WS with 30% higher WS frequency.

wow that is fucking rubbish, thank god masa only takes a day or 2 to farm.

[Concerned4FFxi]

But I don't want to play SAM, I have it leveled, it's fun, but I thought there was a choice not a mandate on which job to play.

[Originalkord]

But I don't want to play SAM, I have it leveled, it's fun, but I thought there was a choice not a mandate on which job to play.

There's a choice--always has been. Whether or not its the choice SE wants you to make is a different story.

[Originalkord]

I do not like the nerf. If anything you can balance the game by making other jobs ws's stronger. Not just make SAM stronger and mnk and war weaker. There is no balance in that, I do not see the point in making a merit ws better than the work we put into the empy trials and relic trials even. Ukko's and Smite, leave em alone.

You're opening a can of worms that someone here is going to try to force feed you, Jar lol ^^

[Originalkord]

On that note, going to ignore Tagrineth's post because I am assuming she has neither the brainpower nor the skill to build one herself.

I do enjoy your accurate assessment, sir.

[Siiri]

Alright, go kill your 2x nm's to kill 25x Carabosse's and 2x nm's to pop 25x CC's in 2x days while everyone spends weeks farming 10-13 NM's to pop 1x nm that drops 2x shells or buds. Then come back to me and talk about why Ukon and Vereth shouldn't out-do the rest.



I believe Quietus uses the Bud path, Twashtar uses the Glavoid shell path, doesn't the drg weapon use one of them as well? Why were they never crazy overpowered if that was the "reward" for doing such a hard hard path. By the way, they may have been tedious but they weren't hard. I have seen many an emp. weapon trial and don't think they are such a special achievement they should be horribly broken, which they were.

[Neisan_Quetz]

RS is good - stacked anyway, at least Thf has bully now so they can SA from any direction.

Camlann's was a repackaged Geirskogul and fails almost as hard as it does. Vit mod is still better than lolAgi, but only because you can find decent pieces with vit and str/attack on them.

I can't comment on Quietus, SE just went out of their way to make that ws seem subpar.

[Tagrineth]

On that note, going to ignore Tagrineth's post because I am assuming she has neither the brainpower nor the skill to build one herself.

Yes, because brainpower and skill are involved in making an Empyrean weapon.

No, I just have the shittiest luck on the server. Last six Glavoids I slaved through farming (completely solo. I HATE SOLOING.) were single drops. Taking a break until I can find a new dedicated farming partner.

[Insaniac]

I have a 90 Rhongo and I have no problem with it's damage. It does 1000-1500 generally on tough stuff and that's fine because DRG can do other things. DRG easily has the 2nd highest TP gain behind SAM. In VW I tend to WS almost as much as swing normally if I have a COR. I can also shed enmity which leaves me with no fear of pulling hate on those types of fights where pulling hate would be some kind of concern. A DRG WS should do less damage than a WARs just as a SAMs and DRKs should. A WAR has no other tricks up it's sleeve. It just bashes on shit and hopes it gets cures. Other DDs all have other reasons to exist. Outside of procs WAR does not. Damage dealt is only 1 part of this so called balance. This dev team says PLD can't get offensive buffs because it's survivability is so high. WAR is the opposite side of that coin. There's nothing a WAR can do to keep itself alive as opposed to every other DD job in the game. It should be #1 by a large margin when it comes to damage dealing capabilities. Maybe not as large as it was but putting it on the same level as SAM is the opposite of balance.

[Siiri]

I have a 90 Rhongo and I have no problem with it's damage. It does 1000-1500 generally on tough stuff and that's fine because DRG can do other things. DRG easily has the 2nd highest TP gain behind SAM. In VW I tend to WS almost as much as swing normally if I have a COR. I can also shed enmity which leaves me with no fear of pulling hate on those types of fights where pulling hate would be some kind of concern. A DRG WS should do less damage than a WARs just as a SAMs and DRKs should. A WAR has no other tricks up it's sleeve. It just bashes on shit and hopes it gets cures. Other DDs all have other reasons to exist. Outside of procs WAR does not. Damage dealt is only 1 part of this so called balance. This dev team says PLD can't get offensive buffs because it's survivability is so high. WAR is the opposite side of that coin. There's nothing a WAR can do to keep itself alive as opposed to every other DD job in the game. It should be #1 by a large margin when it comes to damage dealing capabilities. Maybe not as large as it was but putting it on the same level as SAM is the opposite of balance.

If there is a large gap between war and other jobs, which there is now, why take any other DD in an event where you have support? It doesn't matter in Voidwatch if other jobs have hate shedding, stun, etc, when ample curing exists. The event is "How many Ukkon wars do you have for this NM?" If you tell me you haven't heard that said before I won't believe you.

[saevel]

If there is a large gap between war and other jobs, which there is now, why take any other DD in an event where you have support? It doesn't matter in Voidwatch if other jobs have hate shedding, stun, etc, when ample curing exists. The event is "How many Ukkon wars do you have for this NM?" If you tell me you haven't heard that said before I won't believe you.

Because you need other WS selection to proc HV / EV. You want at least one DRG, one DRK, one SAM and one RNG per run to cover procs along with your MNK and WAR's.

VWNM isn't about doing the most damage, it's about hitting the procs for capped lights and temp item refills and surviving the crazy stupid aoe moves. It's not abyssea, you don't have +50% HP, your not going to survive 2K aoe moves and a dead DD not only deals no damage, but can't proc worth a damn.

[Insaniac]

If there is a large gap between war and other jobs, which there is now, why take any other DD in an event where you have support? It doesn't matter in Voidwatch if other jobs have hate shedding, stun, etc, when ample curing exists. The event is "How many Ukkon wars do you have for this NM?" If you tell me you haven't heard that said before I won't believe you.
First of all, do you even do voidwatch? Second, What Saevel said. 3rd, these amazing Ukon WARs that put out 5-6k damage on T3s at 95 don't grow on trees. Most Ukon WARs have average or slightly above average gear like myself and never even come close to doing 6k on things like Pil or Qilin. So, I don't know how you are going to fill an alliance with WARs capable of 6k damage. My Rhongoon rapes btw and an alliance full of me would easily kill faster than an alliance of average Ukon WARs.

[Siiri]

First of all, do you even do voidwatch? Second, What Saevel said. 3rd, these amazing Ukon WARs that put out 5-6k damage on T3s at 95 don't grow on trees. Most Ukon WARs have average or slightly above average gear like myself and never even come close to doing 6k on things like Pil or Qilin. So, I don't know how you are going to fill an alliance with WARs capable of 6k damage. My Rhongoon rapes btw and an alliance full of me would easily kill faster than an alliance of average Ukon WARs.

Yeah, I do voidwatch. I have helped organize a group that has most clears, and I have done the rest in pickups. You need other jobs for procs, but when it comes to win time the Ukkon wars push the Ohsh*t button with their 5k weaponskills and it is over. If you ever answer pickups they always ask, "how many ukon wars we have?" You can fill in proc jobs no problem, they are trash in comparison. I think a lot of other DDs want to be more than proc trash in comparision to the great almighty overpowered Ukon wars. Some of us like other jobs than war. War bores the ever living crap out of me.

[Vold]

Sounds like it's no regular nerf. It sounds like a crippling ranger nerf...

[Trangnai]

The next nerf is gonna force all wars to de-level to 30 while sams get a buff to level 255

[Insaniac]

Yeah, I do voidwatch. I have helped organize a group that has most clears, and I have done the rest in pickups. You need other jobs for procs, but when it comes to win time the Ukkon wars push the Ohsh*t button with their 5k weaponskills and it is over. If you ever answer pickups they always ask, "how many ukon wars we have?" You can fill in proc jobs no problem, they are trash in comparison. I think a lot of other DDs want to be more than proc trash in comparision to the great almighty overpowered Ukon wars. Some of us like other jobs than war. War bores the ever living crap out of me.
I've won dozens of level 95 VWs with 1 Ukon in 10 minutes or less. Any Relic/Emp/Mythic DD rips these things apart as long as you keep procing. I think you, like a ton of people, have an inflated idea of the power of an Ukon. They don't spam 5k WSs they spam 2k-3k WSs and occasionally blast out a beast. Yes Ukon WARs were easily #1 in DD power but it wasn't by some outrageous margin. Maybe a very slight nerf to the WS was in order but not a 15% crit rate cut.

[Siiri]

I've won dozens of level 95 VWs with 1 Ukon in 10 minutes or less. Any Relic/Emp/Mythic DD rips these things apart as long as you keep procing. I think you, like a ton of people, have an inflated idea of the power of an Ukon. They don't spam 5k WSs they spam 2k-3k WSs and occasionally blast out a beast. Yes Ukon WARs were easily #1 in DD power but it wasn't by some outrageous margin. Maybe a very slight nerf to the WS was in order but not a 15% crit rate cut.

I am sure there is some truth in this. The reason the perception is out there though is mostly through players smack talk, posted parses, memes like "should have been a ukon" on the BG finished emp. thread. Also linkshell leaders disbanding at Qilin when the Ukon war leaves, shouting that they seeking a war only, etc. I believe a parse was shown recently where the Ukon war did 80% more damage than anyone else, the damage calculator that people use had war doing 50% more damage over drk a while ago, etc etc. Apparently someone in charge at SE had the same perception with this nerf.

I do understand though that nerfs are not the way to go. It's stupid to do it after a year, should have been adjusted within a couple weeks of coming out, or other jobs brought up a bit in this past year. SE had numerous chances to even things out and all they did was buff the hell out of SAM, like the old days. This company has the worst sense of balance.

[Vold]

15% is total murder. Hey who still wants to farm a lv95 and 99 Ukon? Step right up. I bet my raging rushes can beat my future Ukko's Fury damage. Well okay that might be pushing it, I don't know. I guess the aftermath is still pretty hot to be worth the effort.

I'm all for balance even if it makes me weaker. I'm all about fair play. But not when butchering jobs are involved. This isn't a nerf. This is declared war on the warrior job. It just joined the club with KC DRK, RDM, and RNG as honorary members. MNK got hit with the WS nerf but how long before it catches more and joins the war club, too? I know for a fact SAM found the immunity idol so they're safe forever.

Boy I'm so going to eat my words if they ever do dial SAM back.

[Sonshou]

Alright, go kill your 2x nm's to kill 25x Carabosse's and 2x nm's to pop 25x CC's in 2x days while everyone spends weeks farming 10-13 NM's to pop 1x nm that drops 2x shells or buds. Then come back to me and talk about why Ukon and Vereth shouldn't out-do the rest.

Base on that argument shouldn't Rhongomiant and Camlann's Torment be as strong as Verethragnr's V.Smite?

[Insaniac]

I am sure there is some truth in this. The reason the perception is out there though is mostly through players smack talk, posted parses, memes like "should have been a ukon" on the BG finished emp. thread. Also linkshell leaders disbanding at Qilin when the Ukon war leaves, shouting that they seeking a war only, etc. I believe a parse was shown recently where the Ukon war did 80% more damage than anyone else, the damage calculator that people use had war doing 50% more damage over drk a while ago, etc etc. Apparently someone in charge at SE had the same perception with this nerf.

I do understand though that nerfs are not the way to go. It's stupid to do it after a year, should have been adjusted within a couple weeks of coming out, or other jobs brought up a bit in this past year. SE had numerous chances to even things out and all they did was buff the hell out of SAM, like the old days. This company has the worst sense of balance.People post those SSs and parses because they are extreme examples. If that WAR won by 80% it's because he didn't have to proc anything and everyone else did or that WAR was amazing and everyone else in the alliance was seriously terrible.

[Siiri]

Base on that argument shouldn't Rhongomiant and Camlann's Torment be as strong as Verethragnr's V.Smite?

I made this same argument then they changed their minds that war was "special" and it should beat all DD by a "large margin".

I also included Quietus in this.

[Neisan_Quetz]

15% is total murder. Hey who still wants to farm a lv95 and 99 Ukon? Step right up. I bet my raging rushes can beat my future Ukko's Fury damage. Well okay that might be pushing it, I don't know. I guess the aftermath is still pretty hot to be worth the effort.

I'm all for balance even if it makes me weaker. I'm all about fair play. But not when butchering jobs are involved. This isn't a nerf. This is declared war on the warrior job. It just joined the club with KC DRK, RDM, and RNG as honorary members. MNK got hit with the WS nerf but how long before it catches more and joins the war club, too? I know for a fact SAM found the immunity idol so they're safe forever.

Boy I'm so going to eat my words if they ever do dial SAM back.

Sadly, no, it wasn't so severe that Raging is going to beat Ukko's, like ever.

It is pretty terrible, but not that bad.

[Scribble]

Ukko's is still well out in front of RR by more than 15%. Apparently Ukon now has latent effect: Convert molehill to mountain.

Too much boo hoo for still having pew pew imo

[Alderin]

Twash - is powerful if used correctly. Stacking with SA / TA & DNC can force crit. It is also a single handed weapon so you cannot expect to push the same amount of damage with a dagger as you can a great axe.

Redem - DRK has Cada, which can be farmed in much less time and deal quite a decent amount of damage. DRK is also a hybrid job, therefore should not excel in both abilities it has. (Deal damage & cast dark magic). Hybrids are good for more things, but excel in none.

Rhol - DRG has Drakesbane - and pretty much every DRG will tell you they are happy with it. If you ask me, Calm Torm is the best option they could have given DRG. A Wheeling Thrust +1, especially with these heavy defence VW mobs @99, I am sure they would be pushing out some ok numbers. Drakesbane didn't need to be replaced in my opinion. Once again, they are also a hybrid (ability to DD, heal, support, shed hate etc). Once again, can do more stuff - but excels in none.

Last thing, DRG / DRK's should have known what they were levelling into before levelling / playing it. DRK & DRG should never be as powerful as WAR or MNK as there needs to be a large difference between "hybrids" and "specialists".

MNK & WAR are DD's in it's purest form. All of their job abilities are related to dealing / taking damage. (Dealing mainly, with a few defensive options for when they do out-dd other jobs). All the other "DD's" are what I would consider hybrids.

Therefore WAR & MNK need to be on top of the pyramid for DD otherwise that would be amongst the many posts using the word thrown around a lot lately - "unbalanced".


*edit* forgot quotes but this was replying to the bunch of people saying "then why aren't the other weapons on glav / chlor path as powerful".....

This sir/madaam, is more then likely your major reason.

[Vold]

"By more than 15%" wasn't why I farmed a Ukko's FuryUkon. "By more than 15%" isn't worth 175 NM kills(yes that's inflated figure it's more like 100 or whatever to account for 2x drops) + 1500 metal plates + whatever. But you guys go right ahead if you think it's worth it post nerf. I'm not your mother. I just know I'll finish my 90 ukon because it's going to nag at me if I don't do it someday after doing the work I already have put into it and I'll settle for Mr. Gimpy Empy lv90.

[Siiri]

Last thing, DRG / DRK's should have known what they were levelling into before levelling / playing it. DRK & DRG should never be as powerful as WAR or MNK as there needs to be a large difference between "hybrids" and "specialists".

MNK & WAR are DD's in it's purest form. All of their job abilities are related to dealing / taking damage. (Dealing mainly, with a few defensive options for when they do out-dd other jobs). All the other "DD's" are what I would consider hybrids.

Therefore WAR & MNK need to be on top of the pyramid for DD otherwise that would be amongst the many posts using the word thrown around a lot lately - "unbalanced".



I am fine with there being a gap. I believe that with Ukko's the gap was way too large. If the gap is too large there is no point to bring any other job than war to an event with adequate support, except for procs. Procs is a garbage reason to bring a job, they should be able to be competitive in damage or they will always be left behind. I thought the balance between drk/war/drg was fine at 75. My group parsed einherjars at 75, a great war would almost always be 1st. Now on parses its just whoever has Ukkos. Sorry you need a broken weaponskill to beat a drk or drg. That is what Ukkos is and always has been, broken. SE just finally woke up.

[Dart]

Twash - is powerful if used correctly. Stacking with SA / TA & DNC can force crit. It is also a single handed weapon so you cannot expect to push the same amount of damage with a dagger as you can a great axe.

Redem - DRK has Cada, which can be farmed in much less time and deal quite a decent amount of damage. DRK is also a hybrid job, therefore should not excel in both abilities it has. (Deal damage & cast dark magic). Hybrids are good for more things, but excel in none.

Rhol - DRG has Drakesbane - and pretty much every DRG will tell you they are happy with it. If you ask me, Calm Torm is the best option they could have given DRG. A Wheeling Thrust +1, especially with these heavy defence VW mobs @99, I am sure they would be pushing out some ok numbers. Drakesbane didn't need to be replaced in my opinion. Once again, they are also a hybrid (ability to DD, heal, support, shed hate etc). Once again, can do more stuff - but excels in none.

Last thing, DRG / DRK's should have known what they were levelling into before levelling / playing it. DRK & DRG should never be as powerful as WAR or MNK as there needs to be a large difference between "hybrids" and "specialists".

MNK & WAR are DD's in it's purest form. All of their job abilities are related to dealing / taking damage. (Dealing mainly, with a few defensive options for when they do out-dd other jobs). All the other "DD's" are what I would consider hybrids.

Therefore WAR & MNK need to be on top of the pyramid for DD otherwise that would be amongst the many posts using the word thrown around a lot lately - "unbalanced".


*edit* forgot quotes but this was replying to the bunch of people saying "then why aren't the other weapons on glav / chlor path as powerful".....

This sir/madaam, is more then likely your major reason.

in regards to drk, you're speaking about it from a abyssea perspective, which isn't accurate. Apoc drk was one of the premier dd's in the game until abyssea came out. Please know what you're talking about!

[Habiki]

They should have nerfed Razed Ruins crit rate before touching either V. Smites or Ukko's Furys crit rates. From what i've seen before the nerf outside abbyssea it was on par with other weaponskills, you had to really work to get good numbers, however inside abyssea there was no competition for highest dmg weaponskills ukkos and victory smite were king.

No matter what gear you wear merits skill w/e pre nerf in abyssea with Razed Ruin and a crit weaponskill your most likely gonna out dd any other ws that can't crit barring a few ws's. Outside there isn't enough gear to get a decent crit rate on weaponskills. Please undo the changes to V. Smite, Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage and put the nerf on Razed Ruin where it belongs, this will create a much greater game balance i think.

[Originalkord]

Procs is a garbage reason to bring a job, they should be able to be competitive in damage or they will always be left behind.

Wrong.

All this talk of damage dealing, and who should do as much damage as this class and why is ridiculous. It's all zerg mentality now. You mean to tell me its right for a THF or a DRG to do as much damage as a WAR or DRK? I used to never care which job was doing more damage than another job because the game used to be so much more than that. Merit parties were the only time I would let my e-peen hang out because thats the only time it mattered, and the only time showing off wouldnt get you raped (95% of the time anyway). Go ahead and feed massive tp to Cerberus and don't have stunners...you just lost your mob at 20%. Feed massive TP to Orthurs and don't have stunners...oh its ok, I have cure bomb, fire resist atmas, and an army of temp items.

There has always been a gap and jobs have always been excluded. If you were in an HNM shell and were gathering to camp, were you all tripping over yourselves to see who can come MNK and DRG? Probably not. Yes, I agree that proccing is a stupid reason to bring a job. It was a lazy, lazy thing to do instead of producing content where a proper party set up mattered again.

At things like faf/nid you'd have a party/alliance consisting mainly of PLD or NIN, RDM, BRD, WHM, BLM, SAM, THF (TH). You obviously needed tanks and needed support for those tanks for things other than cure bombs. SAMs were a popular choice because they could readily make skill chains for the BLMs to magic burst on top of. If you had a well geared WAR, sure they could come to, but when attendance was low, 2 SAMs was the best choice.

KB had a kiting strategy. So you had your kiter and support/nukes, but then you had a place for Ranged Attack jobs.

Tiamat would have your tank party, Mages/nukes, some kind of kiter for adds, and Summoners.

Similar setup could be done for Khimaira, except you can throw some rangers in there too. As with most fights that didnt require people to stand in a cluster, you could have THF helping to put hate on to tanks and managing enmity. But even if they were not doing that, they always had a spot for TH. If you had enough DD, or if your THF had a mandau, they probably were not on the mob full time to prevent TP spam.

Then there was dynamis, non-Odin Einherjars, and limbus. Provided you had enough people, those were the times where your DRGs and DRKs would show up as long as you had a "core" of useful jobs. Then if you were doing DL, that was DRK and WAR zerg time. Odin needed a full ally, with each branch of the ally being given a specific role.

Those are just a few examples. Not all jobs should be "competitive" with each other because not all jobs should be good for everything. If someone insists that they are only going to be ONE job forever--that's fine, but they need to know they will be, and should be, left out of content. You shouldnt need to worry about who is doing more damage than who because fights should be so much more than just that.

[Glacont]

Wrong.

All this talk of damage dealing, and who should do as much damage as this class and why is ridiculous. It's all zerg mentality now. You mean to tell me its right for a THF or a DRG to do as much damage as a WAR or DRK? I used to never care which job was doing more damage than another job because the game used to be so much more than that. Merit parties were the only time I would let my e-peen hang out because thats the only time it mattered, and the only time showing off wouldnt get you raped (95% of the time anyway). Go ahead and feed massive tp to Cerberus and don't have stunners...you just lost your mob at 20%. Feed massive TP to Orthurs and don't have stunners...oh its ok, I have cure bomb, fire resist atmas, and an army of temp items.

There has always been a gap and jobs have always been excluded. If you were in an HNM shell and were gathering to camp, were you all tripping over yourselves to see who can come MNK and DRG? Probably not. Yes, I agree that proccing is a stupid reason to bring a job. It was a lazy, lazy thing to do instead of producing content where a proper party set up mattered again.

At things like faf/nid you'd have a party/alliance consisting mainly of PLD or NIN, RDM, BRD, WHM, BLM, SAM, THF (TH). You obviously needed tanks and needed support for those tanks for things other than cure bombs. SAMs were a popular choice because they could readily make skill chains for the BLMs to magic burst on top of. If you had a well geared WAR, sure they could come to, but when attendance was low, 2 SAMs was the best choice.

KB had a kiting strategy. So you had your kiter and support/nukes, but then you had a place for Ranged Attack jobs.

Tiamat would have your tank party, Mages/nukes, some kind of kiter for adds, and Summoners.

Similar setup could be done for Khimaira, except you can throw some rangers in there too. As with most fights that didnt require people to stand in a cluster, you could have THF helping to put hate on to tanks and managing enmity. But even if they were not doing that, they always had a spot for TH. If you had enough DD, or if your THF had a mandau, they probably were not on the mob full time to prevent TP spam.

Then there was dynamis, non-Odin Einherjars, and limbus. Provided you had enough people, those were the times where your DRGs and DRKs would show up as long as you had a "core" of useful jobs. Then if you were doing DL, that was DRK and WAR zerg time. Odin needed a full ally, with each branch of the ally being given a specific role.

Those are just a few examples. Not all jobs should be "competitive" with each other because not all jobs should be good for everything. If someone insists that they are only going to be ONE job forever--that's fine, but they need to know they will be, and should be, left out of content. You shouldnt need to worry about who is doing more damage than who because fights should be so much more than just that.

Damn, I feel like you've read My Mind. You brought back alot of memories.

[Originalkord]

Damn, I feel like you've read My Mind. You brought back alot of memories.

God's honest truth though. That's why through this whole thing I've been saying that additional content that forces people in to roles again is needed. If not that, then they need to get creative with the other jobs to boost their appeal.

I was in a party on DRG the other day and realized that I never even bothered to take my wyvern out...there's an under utilized aspect of the job. So how about this--if we absolutely need to put jobs on a "competitve" level. If you're going to QQ about WAR being too strong and overshadowing your DRG, what would you say to having that stupid wyvern actually DEAL MORE DAMAGE to supplement what youre lacking in WS power? Don't you think thats a more attractive solution? The WARs stay happy and YOU get something COOL! Ukko's Fury, 5000 damage. Drakesbane 3000, wyvern 1k breath (with maybe some neat ability to control the element used based on the mob youre fighting), or maybe some kind of debuff to the mob? That seems cool to me.

[Tagrineth]

They should have nerfed Razed Ruins crit rate before touching either V. Smites or Ukko's Furys crit rates. From what i've seen before the nerf outside abbyssea it was on par with other weaponskills, you had to really work to get good numbers, however inside abyssea there was no competition for highest dmg weaponskills ukkos and victory smite were king.

Um... no? The point of the nerf is their damage on high level Voidwatch, not Abyssea. Inside Abyssea everyone's so over the top broken it doesn't matter, which is why it was never caught until now.


No matter what gear you wear merits skill w/e pre nerf in abyssea with Razed Ruin and a crit weaponskill your most likely gonna out dd any other ws that can't crit barring a few ws's. Outside there isn't enough gear to get a decent crit rate on weaponskills. Please undo the changes to V. Smite, Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage and put the nerf on Razed Ruin where it belongs, this will create a much greater game balance i think.

Outside there isn't enough crit rate gear, but when you have like 20% crit rate from the little bit of gear + the base 30% crit bonus from Ukko's at 100% TP you're still looking at, on average, 1 crit for sure every Ukko's.

And in Voidwatch, where you can spam Dusty Wings far more often than is in any way reasonable, you're getting guaranteed 100% crit rate Ukko's because of the +80% crit rate bonus at 300% TP.


also Kord: "I never used to care which job was doing more damage..." -> "feed TP on cerb, no stunners, die"

All high tier HNM LS have known for a long time that the best way to avoid TP feed... is to bring the jobs that get the most efficient damage. At one point it was Rangers because they were completely broken, then it was Samurai spam. By your own admission even in the more giving Einherjar it was "Come WAR or SAM or something useful, maybe once we have enough useful MAYBE you can come DRG..." and the rest of the crap you mentioned you yourself pointed out it was "core jobs" "more core jobs" etc. The top DDs have always been horribly favoured over every other job.

but yeah, it's totally cool for 1/3rd of the game's jobs to be useful and viable and the other 2/3rds to be loljobs that don't get to participate at all. :D

[Originalkord]

And in Voidwatch, where you can spam Dusty Wings far more often than is in any way reasonable, you're getting guaranteed 100% crit rate Ukko's because of the +80% crit rate bonus at 300% TP.

So what if they just took away temp items? What if you COULDN'T throw 3 Ukon WARs at it because they wouldn't be sustainable, you'd all wipe, and you couldn't zombie the mob?

[Tagrineth]

So what if they just took away temp items? What if you COULDN'T throw 3 Ukon WARs at it because they wouldn't be sustainable, you'd all wipe, and you couldn't zombie the mob?

They'd have to dial back on the mobs' stats because now you aren't nerfing the Warrior, you're nerfing the entire alliance.

AND making procs harder.

Because of 1-2 weapon skills. Sounds reasonable.

[Originalkord]

They'd have to dial back on the mobs' stats because now you aren't nerfing the Warrior, you're nerfing the entire alliance.

AND making procs harder.

Because of 1-2 weapon skills. Sounds reasonable.

God forbid--balance not only the players, but the content as well? How dare we inconvenience developers and have them do work. Shouldn't be as hard as you think. If they have the stats to buff their player base to keep up with the mob, they should be able to adjust the stats of the mob to those closer to the player base without 100% buffs 100% of the time.

Believe it or not, fights DID used to be hard, and they didnt always have temp items either.

[Tagrineth]

God forbid--balance not only the players, but the content as well? How dare we inconvenience developers and have them do work. Shouldn't be as hard as you think. If they have the stats to buff their player base to keep up with the mob, they should be able to adjust the stats of the mob to those closer to the player base without 100% buffs 100% of the time.

Believe it or not, fights DID used to be hard, and they didnt always have temp items either.

Dial back on the mobs' stats and now they die way too easily to any alliance worth its salt, trivialising the content even further.

[Originalkord]

All high tier HNM LS have known for a long time that the best way to avoid TP feed... is to bring the jobs that get the most efficient damage. At one point it was Rangers because they were completely broken, then it was Samurai spam. By your own admission even in the more giving Einherjar it was "Come WAR or SAM or something useful, maybe once we have enough useful MAYBE you can come DRG..." and the rest of the crap you mentioned you yourself pointed out it was "core jobs" "more core jobs" etc. The top DDs have always been horribly favoured over every other job.

I know they have? The entire point I was making was that there has always been jobs favored above others...I don't really see your point in trying to refute the point I was making by restating it yourself. I am not a supporter of make all classes equal so everyone can take part in all things at all times without any consideration for the actual party structure. If you're going to have this many classes in the game then make it so that some are simply better in some instances than others.

[Originalkord]

Dial back on the mobs' stats and now they die way too easily to any alliance worth its salt, trivialising the content even further.

LMAO IT'S ALREADY TRIVIAL!! Does it matter if its MORE trivial?! Seriously...And no one said to dial it so far back that its more of a joke...fucking christ is it always just one extreme to the other with you? There is such a thing as middle of the road!

[Tagrineth]

I know they have? The entire point I was making was that there has always been jobs favored above others...I don't really see your point in trying to refute the point I was making by restating it yourself. I am not a supporter of make all classes equal so everyone can take part in all things at all times without any consideration for the actual party structure. If you're going to have this many classes in the game then make it so that some are simply better in some instances than others.

Better in some instances yes, but for most of this game's lifespan, it hasn't been "some" instances, it's been "ALL" instances. XI has never had balance between the jobs.


LMAO IT'S ALREADY TRIVIAL!! Does it matter if its MORE trivial?! Seriously...And no one said to dial it so far back that its more of a joke...fucking christ is it always just one extreme to the other with you? There is such a thing as middle of the road!

lol.

[Originalkord]

Better in some instances yes, but for most of this game's lifespan, it hasn't been "some" instances, it's been "ALL" instances. XI has never had balance between the jobs.

So nerfing WAR, and to a lesser extent Vsmite MNKs, in favor of SAM, without changing how content is approached, will add balance? Explain.

[Tagrineth]

So nerfing WAR, and to a lesser extent Vsmite MNKs, in favor of SAM, without changing how content is approached, will add balance? Explain.

... uh... it'll improve balance, because there will be less imbalance issues between jobs? derrrrrrrr.

Oh, you wanted a complete upheaval of all game mechanics and a total revision of all mobs' stats? Good luck with that.

[Dart]

God's honest truth though. That's why through this whole thing I've been saying that additional content that forces people in to roles again is needed. If not that, then they need to get creative with the other jobs to boost their appeal.

I was in a party on DRG the other day and realized that I never even bothered to take my wyvern out...there's an under utilized aspect of the job. So how about this--if we absolutely need to put jobs on a "competitve" level. If you're going to QQ about WAR being too strong and overshadowing your DRG, what would you say to having that stupid wyvern actually DEAL MORE DAMAGE to supplement what youre lacking in WS power? Don't you think thats a more attractive solution? The WARs stay happy and YOU get something COOL! Ukko's Fury, 5000 damage. Drakesbane 3000, wyvern 1k breath (with maybe some neat ability to control the element used based on the mob youre fighting), or maybe some kind of debuff to the mob? That seems cool to me.

don't feel bad, i've literally forgotten that I have a 2hour on drk. haven't used it in probably 6+ months

[Dart]

So nerfing WAR, and to a lesser extent Vsmite MNKs, in favor of SAM, without changing how content is approached, will add balance? Explain.

if they're truly after balance in this regard (nerfing) then sam needs a couple of nerfs. That would even things out further (just following their line of logic)

[Originalkord]

... uh... it'll improve balance, because there will be less imbalance issues between jobs? derrrrrrrr.

Oh, you wanted a complete upheaval of all game mechanics and a total revision of all mobs' stats? Good luck with that.

As a paying customer, yes...yes I do. Wanting anything less for your dollar is moronic. Playing the role of idealist, they completely broke them with Abyssea, why can't they completely fix them with something else?

What you perceive to be less imbalance is only shifting it somewhere else.

[Tagrineth]

As a paying customer, yes...yes I do. Wanting anything less for your dollar is moronic. Playing the role of idealist, they completely broke them with Abyssea, why can't they completely fix them with something else?

What you perceive to be less imbalance is only shifting it somewhere else.

If they broke the mechanics with abyssea why did your previous post illustrating all the game's imbalance not even mention abyssea? :)

I perceive it as less imbalance because the nerf on Ukko's puts Warrior in line with 18 of the other jobs. The fact that Samurai is still ridiculous doesn't factor into that!

[Cowardlybabooon]

I'm a Vereth MNK and I still think aftermath is kinda being ignored in this argument. Empy weapons are still going to be very strong overall. I don't see SAM ONRY coming out of this. I see SAM being allowed to show up again. And saying that an under geared SAM will still be good is very unlikely. Basically the argument only applies if both the SAM and WAR are equally geared, in which case they will likely be even due to Ukko's having aftermath and Shoha not.

More importantly, we really don't know what 99 empys have in store.

[Originalkord]

If they broke the mechanics with abyssea why did your previous post illustrating all the game's imbalance not even mention abyssea? :)

Pretty sure I've touched on that in one of my previous posts. You may recall one or two of them.


I perceive it as less imbalance because the nerf on Ukko's puts Warrior in line with 18 of the other jobs. The fact that Samurai is still ridiculous doesn't factor into that!

That's fine if thats how you see it. Its clear that the majority here dont share that opinion. At least my WAR will be in line with Bard though...if thats what you meant with the other 18.

[Tagrineth]

That's fine if thats how you see it. Its clear that the majority here dont share that opinion. At least my WAR will be in line with Bard though...if thats what you meant with the other 18.


fucking christ is it always just one extreme to the other with you? There is such a thing as middle of the road!

lol.

But yeah you're right, Warrior no longer having the single best weapon skill in the game, instead having maybe the 2nd or 3rd best weapon skill in the game, on a weapon with str+20 and the... what... 3rd highest base dmg category of epic two-handed weapons (behind Scythe and Polearm, respectively)...

Or were you making a reference to my saying WAR is balanced with the other 18 jobs and took that in the dumbest way possible, e.g. that I was saying its damage output is equal to all of theirs individually, rather than that the job is overall balanced with those? Obviously I wasn't talking about just fucking damage output. Herp derp derrrrrrr derp. Because you know, RDM and BRD can do SO much damage, that's clearly what they're invited to groups for and how they're balanced (DISCLAIMER: not that I'm saying necessarily that they are balanced, but moreso than Warrior is right now).


You know what? Fuck it. Why should they even bother trying to balance the game if all people do is whine that their instakill toy is no longer pumping out the biggest numbers in the game, then bitch that bringing a job more in line with others' abilities is NOT balancing...

[Siiri]

War still has great job abilities for DD compared to most others, like retaliation, warcry, berserk and native double attack. They still have strong weaponskills, in fact those checking the math still saying War will be the no. 1 DD. Comparing a war to brd is just ridiculous and makes the argument look silly. I do agree that SAM is not balanced either and should be facing a similar adjustment.

[Originalkord]

You know what? Fuck it. Why should they even bother trying to balance the game if all people do is whine that their instakill toy is no longer pumping out the biggest numbers in the game, then bitch that bringing a job more in line with others' abilities is NOT balancing...

Douche rocket....listen...I'll type it in caps so you can better understand....

YOU BALANCE THE GAME BY MAKING CHANGES TO MORE THAN ONE FUCKING JOOOOBBBB!!! NERF THE DAMAGE ON WAR BUT BE SURE YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE THE NECESSARY CHANGES SO THAT YOU DON'T END UP REPLACING ONE OVERPOWERED FUCKING JOB WITH ANOTHER ONE...!

You're ignorance is downright offensive. If you think downgrading the damage on WAR is going to balance 18 other jobs then, well...ignorance is bliss after all, I guess.

[Cowardlybabooon]

If they make everything else stronger then they will have to make all mobs harder too. This was a better way to do it.

[Originalkord]

If they make everything else stronger then they will have to make all mobs harder too. This was a better way to do it.

Lmao...they really wouldn't.

Again, the argument is that 3 WARs can kill anything. If they DID make EVERY DD on the same level (which if you've been reading I am NOT suggesting they do) then all they're doing is making it so that any combination of 3 DD can kill anything. Things won't suddenly becoming weaker just because you have a bigger variety of jobs--thats just silly logic.

[Tagrineth]

Douche rocket....listen...I'll type it in caps so you can better understand....

YOU BALANCE THE GAME BY MAKING CHANGES TO MORE THAN ONE FUCKING JOOOOBBBB!!! NERF THE DAMAGE ON WAR BUT BE SURE YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE THE NECESSARY CHANGES SO THAT YOU DON'T END UP REPLACING ONE OVERPOWERED FUCKING JOB WITH ANOTHER ONE...!

You're ignorance is downright offensive. If you think downgrading the damage on WAR is going to balance 18 other jobs then, well...ignorance is bliss after all, I guess.

And you're just as fucking ignorant because I'm not at all saying "Just balance WAR out and be done with it lolololol", of course there's still lots of work to be done before the game is actually balanced at all.

One step at a fucking time. Obviously SE isn't that great at actually balancing things. If they try to balance like 5 jobs at once who knows what they'll fuck up. -_- It's gonna be a gradual process, and right now the only obvious outliers are Ukko's Fury and to a slightly lesser extent Victory Smite. So those are what get hit.

For the whole "WAAAH WAAAH I'M A WHINY BABY CRYING ABOUT SPAMURAI" there's no empirical evidence yet that Samurai really WILL be the New Hotness™. Look how long it took to prove that Ukko's Fury is as broken as it is! If it does turn out that the Warriors in the alliances get replaced with Samurai, SE will deal with it in kind. Give them time. After all... they JUST finished getting us to the fucking level cap.

[scaevola]

Alright, go kill your 2x nm's to kill 25x Carabosse's and 2x nm's to pop 25x CC's in 2x days while everyone spends weeks farming 10-13 NM's to pop 1x nm that drops 2x shells or buds. Then come back to me and talk about why Ukon and Vereth shouldn't out-do the rest.


When SAMs and DRKs can pursue a Tahrongi route to give Masa/Calad a weapon skill on par with Ukko's, this argument will be valid.

(also, Redemption says shut the hell up, Donnie)

[Alderin]

in regards to drk, you're speaking about it from a abyssea perspective, which isn't accurate. Apoc drk was one of the premier dd's in the game until abyssea came out. Please know what you're talking about!

I never said DRK wasn't a solid DD - and yes the days of the DRK K.club zerg, and Apoc - they had their place.

As far as "balance" is concerened, I am saying that there are 2x types of jobs. Hybrids and Specialists.

Hybrids have more traits / abilities / flexibility. Can do many things but excel in none.
Specialists have a single purpose. Can only really do one thing well.

ie I will repeat.

DRK can stun, absorb, drain, aspir, low tier nukes, while being able to deal reasonable damage.
WAR can swing their weapon and hit stuff..


I am fine with there being a gap. I believe that with Ukko's the gap was way too large. If the gap is too large there is no point to bring any other job than war to an event with adequate support, except for procs. Procs is a garbage reason to bring a job, they should be able to be competitive in damage or they will always be left behind. I thought the balance between drk/war/drg was fine at 75. My group parsed einherjars at 75, a great war would almost always be 1st. Now on parses its just whoever has Ukkos. Sorry you need a broken weaponskill to beat a drk or drg. That is what Ukkos is and always has been, broken. SE just finally woke up.

Ukko's and V.Smite is less broken then everyone seems to be making out. Only a few WAR's hit the really high numbers outside Abyssea. I was on RNG during a Kaggen run earlier today, we had 2x Ukons. I was on RNG with Gandiva and matched one of their dmg output in a parse on multiple kills. This is just one example.


When SAMs and DRKs can pursue a Tahrongi route to give Masa/Calad a weapon skill on par with Ukko's, this argument will be valid.

(also, Redemption says shut the hell up, Donnie)

Read the full thread before replying. Also not sure why your pulling the SAM card out. A well-geared Masa SAM was not far behind MNK at all pre-Shoha.

[Siiri]

I never said DRK wasn't a solid DD - and yes the days of the DRK K.club zerg, and Apoc - they had their place.

As far as "balance" is concerened, I am saying that there are 2x types of jobs. Hybrids and Specialists.

Hybrids have more traits / abilities / flexibility. Can do many things but excel in none.
Specialists have a single purpose. Can only really do one thing well.

ie I will repeat.

DRK can stun, absorb, drain, aspir, low tier nukes, while being able to deal reasonable damage.
WAR can swing their weapon and hit stuff..


None of the drk abilities listed have any bearing on a group event, so if SE lets them fall too far behind they will not be invited to a group event. I guess maybe stun, but usually you have Blue mages stunning these days, and stun rotation was always part of a black mage task in a group event. So while your argument sounds good I guess, in reality if war is averaging 3k on Ukko's and DRK is averagin 1.5k on Quietus you not bringing a DRK ever except for procs. Especially since WAR has better xhit options and can cap haste easier without losing acc like DRKS, in addition to more offensive oriented job abilities and traits.

Every time a DRK casts they lose a swing and fall further behind on parse. That being said, DRKs have asked for drk celerity, casting times to be reduced, worthwhile spells, if we ever got them maybe that big a gap would be justified. Just another failure of "balance" though by SE. Took the easy way out and nerfed Ukkos. Even in a duo most white mages would say just give me the war full out with retaliation, kill it a lot quicker than a DRK or DRG messing around with drains or jumps anway.

[Chriscoffey]

None of the drk abilities listed have any bearing on a group event, so if SE lets them fall too far behind they will not be invited to a group event. I guess maybe stun, but usually you have Blue mages stunning these days, and stun rotation was always part of a black mage task in a group event. So while your argument sounds good I guess, in reality if war is averaging 3k on Ukko's and DRK is averagin 1.5k on Quietus you not bringing a DRK ever except for procs. Especially since WAR has better xhit options and can cap haste easier without losing acc like DRKS, in addition to more offensive oriented job abilities and traits.

Every time a DRK casts they lose a swing and fall further behind on parse. That being said, DRKs have asked for drk celerity, casting times to be reduced, worthwhile spells, if we ever got them maybe that big a gap would be justified. Just another failure of "balance" though by SE. Took the easy way out and nerfed Ukkos. Even in a duo most white mages would say just give me the war full out with retaliation, kill it a lot quicker than a DRK or DRG messing around with drains or jumps anway.
Exactly when dark as all the potential and none of the reasons to cast. This reasoning people have because its a "hybrid" floors me when they haven't taken the time to use the job to see how much casting effects the job or reasons too.

[Brolic]

None of the drk abilities listed have any bearing on a group event, so if SE lets them fall too far behind they will not be invited to a group event. I guess maybe stun, but usually you have Blue mages stunning these days, and stun rotation was always part of a black mage task in a group event. So while your argument sounds good I guess, in reality if war is averaging 3k on Ukko's and DRK is averagin 1.5k on Quietus you not bringing a DRK ever except for procs. Especially since WAR has better xhit options and can cap haste easier without losing acc like DRKS, in addition to more offensive oriented job abilities and traits.

Every time a DRK casts they lose a swing and fall further behind on parse. That being said, DRKs have asked for drk celerity, casting times to be reduced, worthwhile spells, if we ever got them maybe that big a gap would be justified. Just another failure of "balance" though by SE. Took the easy way out and nerfed Ukkos. Even in a duo most white mages would say just give me the war full out with retaliation, kill it a lot quicker than a DRK or DRG messing around with drains or jumps anway.

when wars can bust out 900 cures for the cost of a bar-spell and solo tank any hmn in the game(yes i know they're far and few in between) with minimal support i'll agree that they should put out comparable numbers as drg and drk.

mock them all you want but these hybrid jobs have uses, just because they're not smash and bash like mnk and war are doesn't meant they're not valid.

more so nothing has changed, drgs and drks aren't being invited to kaggen to do anything other than proc, instead of 4 wars and 1 sam to proc people will just have 1 war to proc and 4 sams to dd tank.

[scaevola]

Lmao...they really wouldn't.

Again, the argument is that 3 WARs can kill anything. If they DID make EVERY DD on the same level (which if you've been reading I am NOT suggesting they do) then all they're doing is making it so that any combination of 3 DD can kill anything. Things won't suddenly becoming weaker just because you have a bigger variety of jobs--thats just silly logic.


Had to back up, because this might actually be literally the dumbest thing I've ever read on these forums.

Of COURSE buffing everybody while making no changes to mob strength means everything's weaker. "Strong" and "weak" are relative terms and the only measurement of this in this context is how difficult they are to kill; the only way "easier" doesn't mean "weaker" is if you think that, like, Raja floats around Grauberg lording it over all those poor magic pots.

So yeah, buffing everybody means they either make current content stronger or write it off completely. The latter is actually more or less exactly what happened with the level cap increase to begin with.

[Cursed]

The truth about the melee classes in FFXI can be understood and decyphered by using the English Alphabet as a key. The code has been decyphered from Tanakanese and can now be understood by scientologists everywhere.
Tom cruise had this to say
"I do my own stunts"

This breakthrough was discovered in waxing sun tan lotion of the year dragon's cornchip in kaka, by Prof. Pikachu of pokemon.


(WAR) x ABC -Always be Crushing.
(DRK) x DEF - Demonstrates emotional fragility.
(SAM) x GHI - Give him/her it.
(MNK) x JKL - Joking kung-fu license.
(DRG) x MNO -Mercy, no, oh-no.
(NIN) x PQR -Pew-pew, Q.Q, rasengan.
(THF) x STU - Swing that uganda.
(PUP) x V - Vagina
(DNC) x W - wang. Wang. WAAANG