Nerfing Ukko/Vsmite so lazy players can be more useful?

[Seijuro]

Are they just trying to get ppl to use the GIMP new WAR/MONK Non-Crit WS?
Or maybe make it so lazy players who don't spend time making empy can have an edge over ppl who spent time to farm them.

This really pisses me off.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Theres more than just what the OP had to say, but I'm getting disgusted so I wont bother. I posted here just so theres another person's comment about how stupid this direction is, especially with the new SAM merited ws being so incredibly insane in power.

Remeber people, if you are really upset dont just read and close the forum, post, that's the only way SE knows this is a bad idea. Even if it goes ignored, you at least tried. Don't complain latter if you didnt complain here first.

[Beathoi]

They just keep slapping us in the face... They give us one thing out of twenty useless ones. And Then when people get fond of them and start to use them as party of strategy, SE comes in and destroys it... @ Seijuro if they wanted to make the "lazy players" Less weak you would think they would provide a Native WS that doesn't suck past lv 60 any job other then SAM of course. I guess they won't learn until people just flat out quit and stop buying FF products...

@Camate Do you know how disheartening it is for You to level a job that is basically useless for endgame purposes. So you level a job that seems to be over used for it to then be Gimped down for what at times seem to only be for the amusement of GMs and server overseers?

[Glacont]

I am setting aside money, now, to purchase a series of offline Games. No sense in Dealing with The Dev Team and Tanaka anymore. 2004-2011.

Restriant > Blood Rage > Uko. Even The Monks are feeling the pain.


Pay heed to this ugly trend. Your job class will be next. I hate to even think about what will happen and how they will go about it, but from what I am seeing We as a whole are being dragged back to pre-level cap 75. VW with thier poor drop rate? I did not like the old content then, and I don't like it now.


My only concern is once I do leave what kind of mess will I have to put it with over the phone from Customer service. I wish Everyone the Best!

[Alhanelem]

Are they just trying to get ppl to use the GIMP new WAR/MONK Non-Crit WS?
Or maybe make it so lazy players who don't spend time making empy can have an edge over ppl who spent time to farm them.

This really pisses me off.
So everyone who doesn't bandwagon onto WAR and MNK is lazy now?

[Kimble]

So everyone who doesn't bandwagon onto WAR and MNK is lazy now?


No people who don't make an empy are lazy.

[Ophannus]

Except VS and Ukko re stronger than most other empyreans like Scythe Polearm Dagger Bow both in AND outside abyssea. So instead of buffing the majority, it's easier to nerf the minority.

[Alhanelem]

Except VS and Ukko re stronger than most other empyreans like Scythe Polearm Dagger Bow both in AND outside abyssea. So instead of buffing the majority, it's easier to nerf the minority.
The nerfs in the upcoming update don't just affect people with empy/WoE weapons. There are changes that nerf all warriors and the people partied with them.

Also, the easiest solution isn't usually the best. I don't mind seeing something tweaked down slightly if it seems a little OP, but these aren't small changes. Blood Rage is getting nerfed pretty significantly. I realize that it's only in effect at best 10% of the time, but it affects your whole party and eliminating the crit damage bonus is a pretty significant weakening of the ability.

[Greatguardian]

Are they just trying to get ppl to use the GIMP new WAR/MONK Non-Crit WS?
Or maybe make it so lazy players who don't spend time making empy can have an edge over ppl who spent time to farm them.

This really pisses me off.

Shijin was already better than Smite on a Perfect Monk. This just widens the gap and has made me seriously consider putting time into a Spharai.

[Ophannus]

Only really affects jobs that use crit ws and crit ws aren't even always the best outside of abyssea anyway.

[Monchat]

initial testings fro Markove chain show Victory smite got nerfed but not by a lot. It seems there is 15% instead of 20% critical hit rate @100TP, so overall almost nothing, like -5% damage at most.

[Buffy]

initial testings fro Markove chain show Victory smite got nerfed but not by a lot. It seems there is 15% instead of 20% critical hit rate @100TP, so overall almost nothing, like -5% damage at most.

5% damage is a lot, lol. It takes a 5500 WS down to 5300.

[Sayomi]

I'm not lazy I just saw it coming, rather stick with DRK and Apoc because I already know not to expect ANYTHING of value or use lol.

[Runespider]

5% damage is a lot, lol. It takes a 5500 WS down to 5300.

From a dev standpoint, that's not much. Since they think the WS is broken you can guarantee there will be more nerfs to take that number down quite a but more. If not the whole excecise is pointless. Same applikes to war if the nerfs they did don't have the desired effect.

[svengalis]

Don't know why this surprises anyone. First it was dragoon then ranger. They actually nerfed ranger twice.

[Avidon]

Lazy. If you don't have an Empy, you are Lazy? According to what we all know, Empies are SOOO Easy to get, but how many Empy holders have a Relic/Mythic? IF not, why? Is it too hard to get? Too time consuming? Or are you Lazy?

I am Lazy. When I log in to play my game, I put on some comfy pants, kick my feet up, and become the most laziest useless human being. There's no agenda, no drama, no one telling me what to do, and absolutely no pressure from the world.

The point: Don't make Lazy a bad word. I like that word. Rather, use a word like... hmm... Content? Yeah, Content works, because like me, and a lot of people I know, we aren't really into the whole concept of having the best of the best. I am content with what I have that makes me functional at my jobs. Get what gets the job done and move on with your life.

If you have everything you want, I applaud you, because you worked hard for it and that's respectable. But don't call people's character into question into a negative light because they don't share the same goals as you.

Besides, half the people with the "Epic Win here Win there, Win Win everywhere" gear still don't know how to play the game. they just happened to be at the right place at the right time with the right people.

Hi, I am Avidon. Lazy and Proud. (It's what gaming is all about.) :)

[Dreamin]

Lazy. If you don't have an Empy, you are Lazy? According to what we all know, Empies are SOOO Easy to get, but how many Empy holders have a Relic/Mythic? IF not, why? Is it too hard to get? Too time consuming? Or are you Lazy?

I am Lazy. When I log in to play my game, I put on some comfy pants, kick my feet up, and become the most laziest useless human being. There's no agenda, no drama, no one telling me what to do, and absolutely no pressure from the world.

The point: Don't make Lazy a bad word. I like that word. Rather, use a word like... hmm... Content? Yeah, Content works, because like me, and a lot of people I know, we aren't really into the whole concept of having the best of the best. I am content with what I have that makes me functional at my jobs. Get what gets the job done and move on with your life.

If you have everything you want, I applaud you, because you worked hard for it and that's respectable. But don't call people's character into question into a negative light because they don't share the same goals as you.

Besides, half the people with the "Epic Win here Win there, Win Win everywhere" gear still don't know how to play the game. they just happened to be at the right place at the right time with the right people.

Hi, I am Avidon. Lazy and Proud. (It's what gaming is all about.) :)


Well said!

Each player has different goals and how they want to play this game. I've said many times before, having 'XYZ' gear/weapon doesn't automatically make a player a great or even good player. Not having 'XYZ' gear/weapon also doesn't automatically make a player a bad player. Sure gear is one aspect of this game, but understanding and actually knowing how to play your job(s) is probably a lot more important then getting 'XYZ' gear/weapon but is completely clueless on the job(s).

I'll trade a player that knows how to perform their job with avg gear than clueless player who run around with an relic/emp.

[Brolic]

Well said!

Each player has different goals and how they want to play this game. I've said many times before, having 'XYZ' gear/weapon doesn't automatically make a player a great or even good player. Not having 'XYZ' gear/weapon also doesn't automatically make a player a bad player. Sure gear is one aspect of this game, but understanding and actually knowing how to play your job(s) is probably a lot more important then getting 'XYZ' gear/weapon but is completely clueless on the job(s).

I'll trade a player that knows how to perform their job with avg gear than clueless player who run around with an relic/emp.

99 % of being a good player is gearing well, the other 1% is casting knowing when to cancel utsusemi

[Greatguardian]

99% of being a good player is swapping gear well, slight adjustment but otherwise the right sentiment.

I have a few Empyreans, but I'm making a Relic now because I feel like it. Neither are that hard. Mythics are a whole other beast, though.

[Sonshou]

If you dun like the nerf you can rage quit.




But, I think you won't. No until you find another game to spend your time on.

[mattkoko]

I don't agree with the nerfs either but i also do not agree with being called lazy because i do not level an empy weapon. real life>then empy weapon, thank you

[Hayward]

This thread is so backwards in logic, it's beyond description. I really shouldn't muster any sympathy for WAR & MNK Empyrean users' weapon skills being scaled back but this pattern of reducing players' damage potential overall is getting out of control. This whole situation has NOTHING to do with any form of "laziness", however. If anything, S-E should be condemned for not bringing all other non-Empyrean Weapon Skills close to where the Empyreans were (or not allowing non-Empyrean owners access to the Weapon Skills themselves like Mythics, for that matter).

The laziness you seek to call out lies in the development room of S-E, not in the non-elite players.

[Siiri]

I have an emp weapon, so I guess I am not lazy in the OP definition of lazy. Regardless, let me make the opposite argument, that some who pick Ukko/Vsmite are the lazy ones. They bandwagon the latest hot job up, because they don't have the knowledge or skill or passion to pick a job and try to make it great. They need broken game mechanics to ever win a parse. My first DD was mnk back when it wasn't cool, I remember working and gearing my butt off in salvage, etc to outdd the bandwagons sams. The time I beat all the SAMs in an einherjar parse was a great day for me at 75. I actually started to enjoy MNK a lot less during the abyssea era, because it seemed so easy. Took the fun out. Plus my beloved job was now the bandwagon DD I had strived to beat. If you love WAR though for WAR, you will overcome this. You will still be a top DD, probably still the best if you gear/play the job right.

[svengalis]

99% of being a good player is swapping gear well, slight adjustment but otherwise the right sentiment.

I have a few Empyreans, but I'm making a Relic now because I feel like it. Neither are that hard. Mythics are a whole other beast, though.

Swapping gear makes you a good player? LOL I am pretty sure most of you use windower to do those gear swaps. How does having a program swap gear for you make YOU a good player? LOL

[svengalis]

If you dun like the nerf you can rage quit.




But, I think you won't. No until you find another game to spend your time on.
Totally off topic. But if you guys want a good story based MMO Star Wars the old republic is pretty good.

[svengalis]

The only thing that really pisses me off about this is that this also affects WoE holders. For those of us who did these trials going down the WoE path: the only great thing about those weapons was the Weapon Skill. Now that these weapon skills are going to be nerfed, this will give people even less of a reason to do WoE. I really feel like I wasted so much time on some weapons that will be in a few months time totally useless.

[Vold]

Laziness is never farming gil or <insert something considered "work" aka you DO NOT want to do whatsoever>. Being anti social or lacking the ability to dual box by whatever means is never farming an Empyrean. There's a distinct difference between the two.

Also, maybe they're just nerfing stuff because it's long overdue. If you're really pissed about this and don't get over it fast and stay pissed, it's probably because you know you were overpowered. Jeez, it's not like Ukko's Fury is going to be doing Raging Rush/Rampage damage post nerfs. I'm not pleased that they go back on their word and that PR ends up being just that but whatever. I know this stuff is overpowered when I still destroy things outside Abyssea.

[svengalis]

Laziness is never farming gil or <insert something considered "work" aka you DO NOT want to do whatsoever>. Being anti social or lacking the ability to dual box by whatever means is never farming an Empyrean. There's a distinct difference between the two.

Exactly, don't know why the topic creator felt the need to insult us the player base because SQUARE ENIX decided that Warrior and Monk are too powerful. I wish Square Enix wouldn't nerf jobs. I wish Square Enix would make Monk and Ranger how they were when they were first introduced but life isn't fair. We all can't get what we want. It kills me how SE trys to go for realism in a game where there's flying airships and birds you ride that can't fly.(Again talking about ranger nerf, was so disappointed when I found out what has become of ranger when I restarted last year)

[Tsuneo]

Swapping gear makes you a good player? LOL I am pretty sure most of you use windower to do those gear swaps. How does having a program swap gear for you make YOU a good player? LOL Swapping gear does make you a good player. You must be one of those people that think there's skill involved in a game that's about mashing macros.

[Kimble]

I'm more confused by how you think there is something that magically knows what gear to change for you without you having to tell it what to change.

[Economizer]

Swapping gear makes you a good player? LOL I am pretty sure most of you use windower to do those gear swaps. How does having a program swap gear for you make YOU a good player? LOL

FFXI has macros without having to resort to a third party tool, and I'd do not appreciate being called a cheater for knowing how to use those macros to be a better player.

You may not have been talking to me or any number of the other people who might pile in here to correct your extremely misguided statement, but there is nothing wrong with using the macro system SE gave us as much as possible.

Even something braindead simple like macroing in gear for WS or different staffs isn't that hard and doesn't make you blink like the holiday lighting on an evergreen. Even if you are only doing simple gear swaps only a tiny bit of the time, your effectiveness skyrockets (and swapping all the time has diminishing returns anyways) and you never have to touch a third party tool to do it. I'm quite lazy about playing the game the majority of the time, but it would be quite irresponsible if I only wore my haste or cure potency set 100% of the time.

[wish12oz]

I guess they won't learn until people just flat out quit and stop buying FF products...

Speaking of people not buying FF games! I just saw this news story about how bad the sales are for FF13-2. Maybe SE will get a clue soon.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/12/22/final-fantasy-xiii-2-beaten-by-tales-final-fantasy-is-dead/

Opening paragraph really says it all.
"Final Fantasy XIII-2′s first week sales figures reveal it has been outsold by Tales of Xillia, a fact which is being greeted as a massive humiliation and confirmation that the Final Fantasy brand now lies in ruins."

[Greatguardian]

Swapping gear makes you a good player? LOL I am pretty sure most of you use windower to do those gear swaps. How does having a program swap gear for you make YOU a good player? LOL

Obviously doesn't know how spellcast or windower scripts work. They're essentially just macros with more lines. If they were super magic doodads that swapped all our whosits and whatnots with no input from the player, we'd call them bots.

[Kimble]

Speaking of people not buying FF games! I just saw this news story about how bad the sales are for FF13-2. Maybe SE will get a clue soon.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/12/22/final-fantasy-xiii-2-beaten-by-tales-final-fantasy-is-dead/

Opening paragraph really says it all.
"Final Fantasy XIII-2′s first week sales figures reveal it has been outsold by Tales of Xillia, a fact which is being greeted as a massive humiliation and confirmation that the Final Fantasy brand now lies in ruins."

This really doesnt mean much considering Tales is a freaking HUGE series in Japan.

US hasnt even gotten most of the tales games and doesnt sell as well here at all but their games were always epicly amazing.

[wish12oz]

This really doesnt mean much considering Tales is a freaking HUGE series in Japan.


FF13: 1,516,532
FF13-2: 524,217
FF10: 1,749,737
FF10-2: 1,472,914″
Tales of Xillia sold 525,605 in its first week

First week numbers. It is a big deal. A series that always does over 1mil at launch just did half that. Even FF13 did 1.5. Tales is not that big, FF is suppose to be.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Agreeing with Wish, not just FF13-2 but FFXIII's 8 week sales total was less than X-2, that's astoundingly bad.

[Kimble]

I'm not saying the numbers aren't good, but comparing it to a Tales series game which are very big games in JP is really stretching it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Comparing it to previous FFs XXIII sold less than X-2, and that was the second worse FF in terms of first 8 week sales. There's just no defending that.

FFXIII-2 also happened to sell less than Tales of Xillia's in its opening week when pretty much every other FF's opening sales were almost/greater than double Xillia's.

[wish12oz]

I'm not saying the numbers aren't good, but comparing it to a Tales series game which are very big games in JP is really stretching it.

The problem I have with your statement is that FF games outsell Tales games 3 to 1, and you're saying Tales games are big and its not a big deal. It clearly is a big deal as FF games should outsell Tales games 3 to 1, but instead Tales is outselling FF.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/39292/Final_Fantasy_XIII2s_Diminished_Debut_May_Spell_Trouble_For_The_Franchise.php

[Insaniac]

It's gotten to the point where I wouldn't even be upset if SE went under. Maybe Wada will panic and clean house and Tanaka will get tossed out with the trash.

[Chriscoffey]

The company went to hell after they combined with Enix. They were both great RPG companies but Squaresoft was always the company when they said were releasing a game you knew it was special.

[Bookong]

Lazy. If you don't have an Empy, you are Lazy? According to what we all know, Empies are SOOO Easy to get, but how many Empy holders have a Relic/Mythic? IF not, why? Is it too hard to get? Too time consuming? Or are you Lazy?

I am Lazy. When I log in to play my game, I put on some comfy pants, kick my feet up, and become the most laziest useless human being. There's no agenda, no drama, no one telling me what to do, and absolutely no pressure from the world.

The point: Don't make Lazy a bad word. I like that word. Rather, use a word like... hmm... Content? Yeah, Content works, because like me, and a lot of people I know, we aren't really into the whole concept of having the best of the best. I am content with what I have that makes me functional at my jobs. Get what gets the job done and move on with your life.

If you have everything you want, I applaud you, because you worked hard for it and that's respectable. But don't call people's character into question into a negative light because they don't share the same goals as you.

Besides, half the people with the "Epic Win here Win there, Win Win everywhere" gear still don't know how to play the game. they just happened to be at the right place at the right time with the right people.

Hi, I am Avidon. Lazy and Proud. (It's what gaming is all about.) :)

THIS!!! one of the best said posts *ever*. thank you for finding the words i have not been able to string together myself!
i am bookong-lazy and proud with you, brother. :)

[Concerned4FFxi]

That's fine and dandy that people have different play styles and such, and want to relax. But nobody that uses a merited ws should be able to outdamage anyone with an empyrean/mythic/relic/woe weapon in similiar gear set. You dont want to make one that's fine, I wouldn't call anyone lazy for that, but when the developers think it's ok to make casual playing the same level as those who do invest more into the game, then you get people on here who are upset and call others names. the lazy comment is wrong, but the agruement behind it about merited ws being able to compete on the same level as empyreams and unko and war getting there power reduced not by a little but majorly is a big issue here.

Balance and risk/rewards is supposed to reward those who risk and work the hardest the most, otherwise we should all just be casual players. I don't spend days+++++ of solo farming for an empyrean or relic just to be doing the same ws damage as a casual player.

[Greatguardian]

It's not a major power reduction and it absolutely does not affect where WAR stands on a relative scale at all. People should've waited for testing to be concluded before having conniption fits. Now they just look stupid for crying over nothing.

That said, why in the bloody blue blazes do I actually agree with the rest of Amaday's post?

Why the hell are the rest of you making this happen?

Stop being dumb. I don't like this one bit.

[Mirabelle]

99 % of being a good player is gearing well, the other 1% is casting knowing when to cancel utsusemi

BS. 99% of being a good player is preparing for the fight properly and following the recipe for success without screwing up. Almost all NM battles can be defeated by players in average AH gear. They may go smoother with a few less people for the top geared players, but if everyone has adequate gear, almost all can be defeated. The upgrades for the top gear in this game have always only afforded modest improvements over lesser gear. That's half the populations complaint is that new gear and WS added since Abyssea have been too sidegradish. That's FFXI.

I also agree that using the term "lazy" in reference to videogame players is about as ludicrous as anything. Working hard in this game affords you no wage, no creature comforts, no long term security, no benefits. Anyone with a modicum of brains would realize its far more important to work hard in real life and relax in a gaming world, not the vice versa.

[hideka]

i hate to burst peoples bubbles but getting relics is cake now. getting 400 coins a run with 2 people is simple. you can get 2-4k coins in one night with a full alliance spread across a dream zone. a LS can finish a Relic in under a month, a solo person can finish in about 3-4 months. not nearly as bad as the 3 years it would take someone to do coins w/o buying back at 75.

[Greatguardian]

Wait, there are still people in this game gullible enough to have an entire alliance build one person's relic?

Some people never learn.

[Lafaiel]

Are they just trying to get ppl to use the GIMP new WAR/MONK Non-Crit WS?
Or maybe make it so lazy players who don't spend time making empy can have an edge over ppl who spent time to farm them.

This really pisses me off.

The problem with your line of thinking Seijuro is that you have it all wrong, the casuals have no care about that as they are the ones that probably have empy weapons. the ones that you probably have to blame are the ones that are not "lazy" as you call them and "worked" for thier relic weapons back in the day and do not like seeing all thier hard work get beaten by "lazy" johnny come lately much like youself who took the easy way out and got an empy when abyssea was released. I mean, look at it logically, what do the casuals care if you have a sword of pwn+1, they play thier game and have fun, but the ones that care that you outdamage them with some upstart weapon that only took you less than a year to get, those are the ones you might want to look at.

I think you're a bit too quick to lay blame here, you might as well call them baddies and keyboard turners, and put that empy of yours on your resume for your next job and tell them how great you are for having one.

[Ophannus]

I figured this was a joke thread because this it implies that WARs and MNKs with Empyrean weapons aren't lazy. By that logic Mythic and Relic Great Axe/h2h should be vastly superior compared to Empyrean since they require months, if not years to acquire while an emp can be done in minimum 2 days, average a week or two.

[Atomic_Skull]

How everyone who isn't a WAR or a MNK feels about this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7mdTrYgeCc&feature=related)

[Amador]

The people defending this want to say: Why not make all the other jobs stronger, instead of making us weaker.

Well let's examine that.

If they made other jobs stronger, let's say that made DRG and Drakesbane stronger. How would the community feel as a whole, to see that their Empyrean GA Level 95 can't touch a Polearm that OAT's with 110 Damage?

It's the same issue.

Why should people who invest a month at max to take an Empyrean from 80->90 be even considered top contenders against weapons such as: Mythic, and or Relic(Which until recently instead of a 2-3 year trial, became a 5 month trial solo) be the best of the best?

You can't say not having an Empyrean is lazy. Saying not having a Magian weapon is more so correct. Due to the fact that not all of these Empyreans are the best in their caliber. By the same means, they aren't balanced.

The DEV team, the COMMUNITY agree that Empyreans are not balanced. Why is this suddenly a surprise?

Why is it that every other forum talks about: When are they balancing mythics, and relics? Suddenly because you gain a weapon that breaks your job you're entitled to defending it?

Let's not forget abyssea is mini expansion content. You didn't buy a Expansion Pack and dedicate years to it. You bought a mini-expansion that had toys. Why on earth, are those toys deemed the best? Why should they even be allowed to belittle old content?

Now everyone is screaming, SAM nerf. Okay, so what if it does happen then what? Can people argue that SAM nerf is justifiable? If so, and if the community sees it, it might happen. Can we foresee a Jishnu's Raidiance nerf? Possibly. They stated this wasn't the end all, there will be more adjustments. Both to new WS and old.

So, at the end of the day which WS are "over powered"?

Think. They want to make it a baseline of 10% Crit Rate - 15% Crit rate and call that a norm, considering HQ being 15%. Hence Ukko's, V. Smite.

At 99, what can the dev team offer players besides Gear? What if this new gear is so amazingly broken that having powerful ws's with such crazy mods wouldn't work?

I don't think it's Tanaka's doing. However, if they had a body, that had +15% Critical Hit Damage, and +15% Critical Hit Rate, and +15% Double Attack Damage. Who would benefit the greatest from it?

A job with a 10% Crit WS, or a Job with a 30% Crit WS @100%? Which job would become bandwagon due to when being geared, being insane?

It's simple.

This is end game. Nerfing will come, provisionally to allow for better abilities, gear, weapons? Maybe.

However sitting here crying for things that don't fit the norm is silly. It's not a bash against Warrior or Monk, both great traditional jobs. It's a bash against inconsistency. Should the nerf of happened sooner? Yeah. Did it? No, too late.

At this point, it's what it is.

[Insaniac]

i hate to burst peoples bubbles but getting relics is cake now. getting 400 coins a run with 2 people is simple. you can get 2-4k coins in one night with a full alliance spread across a dream zone. a LS can finish a Relic in under a month, a solo person can finish in about 3-4 months. not nearly as bad as the 3 years it would take someone to do coins w/o buying back at 75.What? Any mediocre dynamis LS would pull in 500-1000 coins a week. Factoring in dreamland and northland runs if your shell actually gave a crap about what other people wanted it would take maybe 6 months to finish a relic without ever buying a single piece of currency. That's about 150 hours of personal time invested which is about the same as it takes now to solo or DB a relic. It may only take 2 months but that's because you can go every day. It still takes the same amount of personal time investment. Now you just don't need 17-35 extra people who get the short end of the stick.

[Scribble]

What? Any mediocre dynamis LS would pull in 500-1000 coins a week. Factoring in dreamland and northland runs if your shell actually gave a crap about what other people wanted it would take maybe 6 months to finish a relic without ever buying a single piece of currency.

This assumes that the currency all goes toward one persons relic. I can't speak for all dynamis linkshells, but I would assume most of them worked on several relics at once. Relic weapons were a commitment that you had to show that you were going to be in for the long haul for to most linkshells.

Also, you can't compare your own personal time to the amount of man hours it took with a full group clearing. A relic back then took multitudes more time and way more money. People forget glasses used to cost an arm and a leg?

[Neisan_Quetz]

How everyone who isn't a WAR or a MNK feels about this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7mdTrYgeCc&feature=related)

You can stop being a fucking retard right about now because you're wrong and people across the board are unhappy with this nerf.

Have a happy holiday anyway.


The people defending this want to say: Why not make all the other jobs stronger, instead of making us weaker.

Well let's examine that.

If they made other jobs stronger, let's say that made DRG and Drakesbane stronger. How would the community feel as a whole, to see that their Empyrean GA Level 95 can't touch a Polearm that OAT's with 110 Damage?

It's the same issue.

Why should people who invest a month at max to take an Empyrean from 80->90 be even considered top contenders against weapons such as: Mythic, and or Relic(Which until recently instead of a 2-3 year trial, became a 5 month trial solo) be the best of the best?

You can't say not having an Empyrean is lazy. Saying not having a Magian weapon is more so correct. Due to the fact that not all of these Empyreans are the best in their caliber. By the same means, they aren't balanced.

The DEV team, the COMMUNITY agree that Empyreans are not balanced. Why is this suddenly a surprise?

Why is it that every other forum talks about: When are they balancing mythics, and relics? Suddenly because you gain a weapon that breaks your job you're entitled to defending it?

Let's not forget abyssea is mini expansion content. You didn't buy a Expansion Pack and dedicate years to it. You bought a mini-expansion that had toys. Why on earth, are those toys deemed the best? Why should they even be allowed to belittle old content?

Now everyone is screaming, SAM nerf. Okay, so what if it does happen then what? Can people argue that SAM nerf is justifiable? If so, and if the community sees it, it might happen. Can we foresee a Jishnu's Raidiance nerf? Possibly. They stated this wasn't the end all, there will be more adjustments. Both to new WS and old.

So, at the end of the day which WS are "over powered"?

Think. They want to make it a baseline of 10% Crit Rate - 15% Crit rate and call that a norm, considering HQ being 15%. Hence Ukko's, V. Smite.

At 99, what can the dev team offer players besides Gear? What if this new gear is so amazingly broken that having powerful ws's with such crazy mods wouldn't work?

I don't think it's Tanaka's doing. However, if they had a body, that had +15% Critical Hit Damage, and +15% Critical Hit Rate, and +15% Double Attack Damage. Who would benefit the greatest from it?

A job with a 10% Crit WS, or a Job with a 30% Crit WS @100%? Which job would become bandwagon due to when being geared, being insane?

It's simple.

This is end game. Nerfing will come, provisionally to allow for better abilities, gear, weapons? Maybe.

However sitting here crying for things that don't fit the norm is silly. It's not a bash against Warrior or Monk, both great traditional jobs. It's a bash against inconsistency. Should the nerf of happened sooner? Yeah. Did it? No, too late.

At this point, it's what it is.

Raging Rush has +15% crit rate, vorpal is 5-10%, evis is 10%, drakes is probably 5% and has an attack penalty, rampage and blade: jin is 5%, backhand blow is 40%, True Strike is 100%. Where the heck do you get 10% being the norm and 15% 'HQ'?

[Greatguardian]

How everyone who isn't a WAR or a MNK feels about this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7mdTrYgeCc&feature=related)

You've really been the most grossly immature of the bunch since the announcement of this adjustment - especially considering it doesn't really affect the job hierarchy at all. Is there a point in all of this spam? Honestly, the nerfs aren't nearly so bad as to merit the conniption fits some people are having, but you're setting an equally bad example by parading around and rubbing this in people's faces.

You know you've probably taken this game too seriously when you develop a victim's complex over the adjustments made to your primary job and the buffs given to other jobs that share the same skill sets. Now, what, you want to watch every powerful job burn so that they can all feel like you apparently feel now on Thief? Heh. You're the type who wouldn't be happy even if Thief was buffed to unimaginable levels. You don't care about balance, you just want everyone else to suffer. And you know what? This nerf wasn't even that bad. Save your ire for a real nerf - cheering on a minor decrease in WS damage just makes you look silly and grossly uninformed.

[Dart]

You've really been the most grossly immature of the bunch since the announcement of this adjustment - especially considering it doesn't really affect the job hierarchy at all. Is there a point in all of this spam? Honestly, the nerfs aren't nearly so bad as to merit the conniption fits some people are having, but you're setting an equally bad example by parading around and rubbing this in people's faces.

You know you've probably taken this game too seriously when you develop a victim's complex over the adjustments made to your primary job and the buffs given to other jobs that share the same skill sets. Now, what, you want to watch every powerful job burn so that they can all feel like you apparently feel now on Thief? Heh. You're the type who wouldn't be happy even if Thief was buffed to unimaginable levels. You don't care about balance, you just want everyone else to suffer. And you know what? This nerf wasn't even that bad. Save your ire for a real nerf - cheering on a minor decrease in WS damage just makes you look silly and grossly uninformed.

careful you might hurt his feelings

[Insaniac]

This assumes that the currency all goes toward one persons relic. I can't speak for all dynamis linkshells, but I would assume most of them worked on several relics at once. Relic weapons were a commitment that you had to show that you were going to be in for the long haul for to most linkshells.

Also, you can't compare your own personal time to the amount of man hours it took with a full group clearing. A relic back then took multitudes more time and way more money. People forget glasses used to cost an arm and a leg?It doesn't effect the amount of work the person actually receiving the relic has to put in. It just removes from the equation, the people not getting anything but shitty armor out of the runs. The only thing that is a load off of the relic upgrader is the cost of the glass which they usually just paid for with sold currency anyway and the hassle of setting up the runs and organizing the LS if they even had to do that. Making a relic is still time consuming just like it was before but now it's realistic for more people because you don't have to have an LS following you as a resource to complete one. Ive completed a relic under both dynamis systems and it wasn't particularly harder in either. The old system just seemed harder because of the wait time between runs and zone lock outs and stupid crap like that.

[Riggs]

although my sig says my main is war its not its thf, i only use war for abyssea proc's and i don't have that ws. just my opinion i don't like any nerf as at some stage a war with that ws will have helped me get xp faster in abyssea or possibly many other things.

Make one of us stronger you make us all stronger, weaken one of us you weaken us all

[Scribble]

The only thing that is a load off of the relic upgrader is the cost of the glass which they usually just paid for with sold currency anyway and the hassle of setting up the runs and organizing the LS if they even had to do that.
If you're upgrading relics then you're not selling currency... Regardless it still took more time and money back then.

Basically what you're saying is that a person who can only work part-time would be able to save up as much money as someone who works everyday. Not only that but the person who can work all week doesn't have to pay for 'transportation'. How the hell does that work?

[Amador]

Backhand Blow and Truestrike, real solid choices of VERY POWERFUL WEAPONSKILLS. What a joke. Please, go figure out what the Critical Hit Rate is for Blade: Rin and Power Slash!

It might just help your argument out more! Not.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'll add it as soon as someone goes and tests it. You couldn't even tell me what Ascetic's Fury or Skewer's crit rate is now could you?

The point remains, there is no uniform 'NQ' or 'HQ' crit rate between crit ws. SE decided them on pretty much a whim.

[scaevola]

5% damage is a lot, lol. It takes a 5500 WS down to 5300.



can't tell if serious....?

[scaevola]

Speaking of people not buying FF games! I just saw this news story about how bad the sales are for FF13-2. Maybe SE will get a clue soon.

http://www.sankakucomplex.com/2011/12/22/final-fantasy-xiii-2-beaten-by-tales-final-fantasy-is-dead/

Opening paragraph really says it all.
"Final Fantasy XIII-2′s first week sales figures reveal it has been outsold by Tales of Xillia, a fact which is being greeted as a massive humiliation and confirmation that the Final Fantasy brand now lies in ruins."


Well, 13 was garbage in its own right so we need not consider 14's (or 11's) problems when evaluating whether we want to spend money on a direct sequel to a game of which my most salient impression was "I paid $60 to listen to Vanille?"

[Insaniac]

If you're upgrading relics then you're not selling currency... Regardless it still took more time and money back then.

Basically what you're saying is that a person who can only work part-time would be able to save up as much money as someone who works everyday. Not only that but the person who can work all week doesn't have to pay for 'transportation'. How the hell does that work?
I'm not trying to come off as an elitist here but have you made a relic under either system? You sound like you are regurgitating what other people are regurgitating.

What I'm saying is that if they both make 10 dollars an hour they both make 400 dollars after working 40 hours. Even if it takes the guy working part time a month of working 10 hours a week. They both put in the same amount of work. 500k was a joke and you could make that by selling 30-40 currency if you even needed to. Yes it's easier to make a relic now but is it THAT much easier? Not really. SE removed the artificial RL time roadblocks and the need to have a huge group of unselfish souls to sacrifice. Personal time investment, while less, is still similar. That's my point.

Edit: I just thought of 2 things that are wayyy easier under the new system. Getting your attest and fragment. So I will give you that too.

[Brolic]

Wait, there are still people in this game gullible enough to have an entire alliance build one person's relic?

Some people never learn.
it's a little different these days, not when a last stage only takes 2 weeks and everyone's getting steps and -1 items.

more so after about 6 years of playing if you're still associating with people that will fuck you over, you deserve to be fucked,

[Scribble]

I understood your point. You made it sound as though it hadn't become any easier to get your currency than it was, but it has. I have a relic that was made during the old system, but I farmed to pay for outside currency because I wanted to complete it in less than a decade.

Remember million dollar hourglasses? That's how much they were when I was doing most of my dynamis. If you'd removed the price of the hourglass and instead spent it on currency, a person could gather enough for a relic in just over a year. I understand your point, but you aren't making it when you try to trivialize stuff that is significant for most people.

Your analogy is wrong too. You're forgetting the lockout period. There are two 72 hour lockouts in a week so 2 runs @ $10/hour for 2 hours is $40. Under the new system you get two hours a day every day of the week which is 7 runs @ $10/hour for 2 hours or $140. That alone is a big difference but when you consider that the first guy has to split his earnings with his coworkers as well as paying for transportation...

[Koroma]

c'mon Tanaka just triple sam ws damage like youve always wanted and stop nerfing others.

[Atomic_Skull]

Know what would be even more delicious? If SE changes their mind and leaves WAR and MNK alone, and then buffs everyone else just as they were asked and as a result WAR and MNK end up being as far below some other DD in damage as everyone else is below WAR and MNK right now.

Do it SE, DO IT!

[Chriscoffey]

Know what would be even more delicious? If SE changes their mind and leaves WAR and MNK alone, and then buffs everyone else just as they were asked and as a result WAR and MNK end up being as far below some other DD in damage as everyone else is below WAR and MNK right now.

Do it SE, DO IT!
These forums aren't big enough to handle that much epic emo and to think they called dark the emo knight. There has never been this much complaining done dark side about something so minor. I think for the most part we just complaning about idiotic abilities/traits that are clearly useless for us. I have accepted sam as the great king of the DD and it shall always be #1, however, I guess SE will adjust the #2 spot accordingly.

[Greatguardian]

These forums aren't big enough to handle that much epic emo and to think they called dark the emo knight. There has never been this much complaining done dark side about something so minor. I think for the most part we just complaning about idiotic abilities/traits that are clearly useless for us. I have accepted sam as the great king of the DD and it shall always be #1, however, I guess SE will adjust the #2 spot accordingly.

Never been this much complaining about DRK? Are you, like, for serious serious?

PUP getting Dread Spikes

Whatever the hell that JA they just added was called, the one where you take damage

Blah blah whine blah blah dark magic blah blah Urteil.

Every month it's a new DRK thread, even if there isn't an update. The crying over this minor nerf was terrible, but DRK is a whole other league.

[Zerich]

5% damage is a lot, lol. It takes a 5500 WS down to 5300.


you mean 5225...lrn2math

[Camate]

Hello.

Thanks for all the feedback on this topic.

Sorry it took a bit to give you this information, but as I am sure you all read, we were out for the holidays.

There have been some comments asking for other weapon skills to be adjusted so that they are stronger. We actually looked into this, but due to the very large differences in values we determined it would be difficult because of the way it would tie into the balance of power between jobs. (In the case that things stayed the way they are, the chances that future abilities and equipment would have lower stats or simply not be possible to add would become increasingly high.)

The principle behind the current weapon skill adjustment follows the same principles for the aims of why warrior has been adjusted (Restraint, etc.):


Prevent becoming overpowered
Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)

　
The below adjustments have been set up on the test server.
This is the chance of critical hit for TP100%/200%/300% respectively.


Ukko’s Fury
Before adjustment: 30%/50%/80%
　↓
Test server version: 15%/25%/40%


Victory Smite
Before adjustment: 15%/30%/60%
　↓
Test server version: 10%/20%/35%

Since there are other abilities and equipment to take into account, although I cannot affirm anything just yet, we would like to see if we can perhaps raise the critical hit rate a bit after looking at your feedback and development/QA testing.

We will be putting the re-adjusted data onto the test server during the first update of the New Year and would like to continue to test this.

[Helel]

we would like to see if we can perhaps lower the critical hit rate a bit after looking at your feedback and development/QA testing.

I need to drink more war tears please. So delicious.

[Atomic_Skull]

Ukko’s Fury
Before adjustment: 30%/50%/80%

Anyone who insists that this was not overpowered is either lying to themselves or just plain lying.

[Ophannus]

Oh no! So instead of doing 6k Ukko's Fury to Qilin they'll do 3k! Which is still 1k higher than NIN DRK DRG THF DNC RNG PUP COR MNK. WARs are lucky thats all the nerf they're getting. Even WITH the nerf, Ukko's is still BY FAR the strongest Empyrean WS, these updates are meant to bring it down on par with other emps that 15/25/40 crit% is the same as CDC/Hi and a few other crit WS, so in my eyes, it's fine.

[Alhanelem]

Hello.

Thanks for all the feedback on this topic.

Sorry it took a bit to give you this information, but as I am sure you all read, we were out for the holidays.

There have been some comments asking for other weapon skills to be adjusted so that they are stronger. We actually looked into this, but due to the very large differences in values we determined it would be difficult because of the way it would tie into the balance of power between jobs. (In the case that things stayed the way they are, the chances that future abilities and equipment would have lower stats or simply not be possible to add would become increasingly high.)

The principle behind the current weapon skill adjustment follows the same principles for the aims of why warrior has been adjusted (Restraint, etc.):



Prevent becoming overpowered
Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)


　
The below adjustments have been set up on the test server.
This is the chance of critical hit for TP100%/200%/300% respectively.



Ukko’s Fury
Before adjustment: 30%/50%/80%
　↓
Test server version: 15%/25%/40%
Victory Smite
Before adjustment: 15%/30%/60%
　↓
Test server version: 10%/20%/35%


Since there are other abilities and equipment to take into account, although I cannot affirm anything just yet, we would like to see if we can perhaps raise the critical hit rate a bit after looking at your feedback and development/QA testing.

We will be putting the re-adjusted data onto the test server during the first update of the New Year and would like to continue to test this.

I can understand the reasoning behind the changes, and to an extent I agree with the Ukko's change, but I don't really think that Victory Smite is in the same boat (I suppose that's why it wasn't reduced as heavily); I also don't feel that an ability that provides a strong buff that can only be active 10% of the time at best really needs to be nerfed either.

I do hope that it is shown that these nerfs are a bit on the heavy-handed side.


Oh no! So instead of doing 6k Ukko's Fury to Qilin they'll do 3k! Which is still 1k higher than NIN DRK DRG THF DNC RNG PUP COR MNK. WARs are lucky thats all the nerf they're gettingVIctory Smite is nowhere near the kind of broken power that Ukko's is, and I don't understand why it's being nerfed at all. I use it on PUP all the time (I can't speak for other people, but for me, it's outperforming Pummel, at least in Abyssea, and it skillchains better), so this can adfersely effect PUPs (not very much, but it certainly doesn't help them at all).

I agree that Ukko's needs a tone down, I don't agree that Victory Smite does also.

[Ragni]

Oh no! So instead of doing 6k Ukko's Fury to Qilin they'll do 3k! Which is still 1k higher than NIN DRK DRG THF DNC RNG PUP COR MNK. WARs are lucky thats all the nerf they're getting. Even WITH the nerf, Ukko's is still BY FAR the strongest Empyrean WS, these updates are meant to bring it down on par with other emps that 15/25/40 crit% is the same as CDC/Hi and a few other crit WS, so in my eyes, it's fine.

Since when NIN THF DRG DRK PUP COR are heavy DD. Yeah Ukko fury is overpowered but they should't cut crit rate by half - this is not fair. WAR got that power because he dont have defensive abilities - loldefender.

[Lokithor]

SE still don't get it. You just piss people off by achieving "balance" by nerfing. You make people happy by achieving balance by strengthening the weaker jobs. If this was my business, I would be trying to make my subscribers happy, not piss them off.

I'm not a war btw.

[Damane]

Since when NIN THF DRG DRK PUP COR are heavy DD. Yeah Ukko fury is overpowered but they should't cut crit rate by half - this is not fair. WAR got that power because he dont have defensive abilities - loldefender.

I am a war, do you know how much -pdt -mdt and -damage taken in general gear there is out for war? Alot! War is one of the jobs with the option to play defensiv and still pump out dmg due to retalation while tanking.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

SE still don't get it. You just piss people off by achieving "balance" by nerfing. You make people happy by achieving balance by strengthening the weaker jobs. If this was my business, I would be trying to make my subscribers happy, not piss them off.

I'm not a war btw.

Wrong! WAR is seriously over-powered, if they upped other jobs it'd do nothing but make them equally over-powered.

You balance it to non over-powered first, then equal the other jobs that do the same role (aka DD's) to that area.

[Cream_Soda]

Since when NIN THF DRG DRK PUP COR are heavy DD. Yeah Ukko fury is overpowered but they should't cut crit rate by half - this is not fair. WAR got that power because he dont have defensive abilities - loldefender.
DRG and DRK I'm pretty sure can be classified as heavy DDs.

I think they should have gotten something decent to bring them up to speed, as I don't agree with any nerfs, but lol yea.

[Cream_Soda]

Wrong! WAR is seriously over-powered, if they upped other jobs it'd do nothing but make them equally over-powered.

You balance it to non over-powered first, then equal the other jobs that do the same role (aka DD's) to that area.
That's when you adjust the target mobs, give them crit defense bonus, and things of that nature rather than up and up gimping something

[Feliciaa]

I can understand the reasoning behind the changes, and to an extent I agree with the Ukko's change, but I don't really think that Victory Smite is in the same boat (I suppose that's why it wasn't reduced as heavily); I also don't feel that an ability that provides a strong buff that can only be active 10% of the time at best really needs to be nerfed either.

I do hope that it is shown that these nerfs are a bit on the heavy-handed side.

VIctory Smite is nowhere near the kind of broken power that Ukko's is, and I don't understand why it's being nerfed at all. I use it on PUP all the time (I can't speak for other people, but for me, it's outperforming Pummel, at least in Abyssea, and it skillchains better), so this can adfersely effect PUPs (not very much, but it certainly doesn't help them at all).

I agree that Ukko's needs a tone down, I don't agree that Victory Smite does also.

Most likely the Victory Smite nerf had the MNK JA Impetus in mind, rather then nerfing Impetus which would hurt even non-emp holds. I do agree that it sucks that PUP was caught up in the cross fire on this. (Wonder if SE will ever make mythic weapons not take 6+ months so stuff like this does not happen to other jobs).

[Tsuneo]

Wrong! WAR is seriously over-powered, if they upped other jobs it'd do nothing but make them equally over-powered.

You balance it to non over-powered first, then equal the other jobs that do the same role (aka DD's) to that area.
Basically what you want is for us to do level 75 damage. I don't understand this logic. When in FFXI did we gain levels and our ability to do damage did not become greater?

[Runespider]

Why do people keep exagerating ws numbers. Ukos doesn't do anything like 6-9k on a regular basis outside Aby on VW mobs. Average is around 2-4k.

[Hextitan]

Oh no! So instead of doing 6k Ukko's Fury to Qilin they'll do 3k! Which is still 1k higher than NIN DRK DRG THF DNC RNG PUP COR MNK. WARs are lucky thats all the nerf they're getting. Even WITH the nerf, Ukko's is still BY FAR the strongest Empyrean WS, these updates are meant to bring it down on par with other emps that 15/25/40 crit% is the same as CDC/Hi and a few other crit WS, so in my eyes, it's fine.

6k Ukko's Fury are not at all the norm on any VWNM. Are you on crack? If you think WAR deserved the nerf ok cool but at least have an educated opinion as to why that is.

[Greatguardian]

The problem is balance, but not the way the term is usually used.

FFXI mechanics work great when everyone's level 30.

FFXI mechanics don't work so well when everyone's level 75-99.

The combat system was either not given much foresight, or just developed for too long with the consideration of the entire level range. I'd honestly be willing to bet it's more of the former but it's hard to do much about that at this point.

[Feliciaa]

While I think SE went a little crazy with the Ukko's Fury nerf I do think WAR needed it. I only say this because WAR has access to some really nice +crit dmg gear and really high double attack. So, once you add in both those traits on top of the aftermath WAR's dmg out put seems a little out of hand..

However, I always believe it's better to buff and improve weaker jobs vs. nerfs.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

That's when you adjust the target mobs, give them crit defense bonus, and things of that nature rather than up and up gimping something

That's the equivalent of gimping these moves and we all know SE will take the easy route. The only difference being increasing the target mobs effects the other DD's not anywhere near par to MNK and especially WAR. So for them it's easier to gimp a move then have even more work to do.

A simpler solution in the first place would have been:

1. Not raising the Critical Hit Rate Cap
2. Think before implementing something

[Tsuneo]

That's the equivalent of gimping these moves and we all know SE will take the easy route.

It's also the equivalent of having stayed at 75 which would have been a hell of a lot easier for them. I suppose they should've just left us at 75, so that they wouldn't have to work very hard.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

It's also the equivalent of having stayed at 75 which would have been a hell of a lot easier for them. I suppose they should've just left us at 75, so that they wouldn't have to work very hard.

The game has basically stayed at level 75. Levels changed, not much else has.

[Xantavia]

I think the problem with bringing the rest of the weapons up would have been empyrean becoming the new baseline for DD jobs. Mobs would get adjusted against these WS, which would affect everybody without an empyrean weapon.

And is it really game breaking to reduce what they can do? Have events suddenly become lolwar? {Warrior}{No Thanks} Level a real job!

[Tsuneo]

I think the problem with bringing the rest of the weapons up would have been empyrean becoming the new baseline for DD jobs. Mobs would get adjusted against these WS, which would affect everybody without an empyrean weapon.

And is it really game breaking to reduce what they can do? Have events suddenly become lolwar? {Warrior}{No Thanks} Level a real job!
I don't agree. Empyreans are easy enough to get. Back at 75 wasn't some fantasy of there being no subpar players. Those people with top of the gear always did better than the less geared people who wiped to things.

[Alcarin]

I think we all are tired too read that word "Balance"...
First give to us strong Job ability and Weaponskill that make you Enjoy the Work you spent for make Emperyans like Ukovasara and Verethragna (Both Terrible, Long Paths) but you will think also the work you do, will get payd back with 2 strong Emperyans, with very strong Weaponskills... so, we wasted our time? also why don't use your nice word called "Balance" on : Ochain: like 99% Block rate?
why don't use your nice word "Balance" on Wildfire? that Weaponskill overparse everyone in Voidwatch. that is not overpowered?
why don't use your nice word "Balance" on Tachi: Shoa? that ws is overpowered more than Tachi:Kaiten/Tachi:Fudo... so we made that Relics/Emperyan just for get overparsed by a Merit Weaponskill? seems you Square-Enix like use your "Balance" word too random and only on Warriors and Monks..

[Greatguardian]

Paladin is still teetering on the verge of uselessness, Corsair desperately needed the buff, and we all know SE rides Samurai schlong.

[Prothscar]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I'm losing 10% effectiveness with the worst possible conditions on my super overpowered weaponskill!

WAR is still going to be the best DD in the game. Get over it.

[newmonkey]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH I'm losing 10% effectiveness with the worst possible conditions on my super overpowered weaponskill!

WAR is still going to be the best DD in the game. Get over it.


Finally someone else comes out with what i've been thinking all along.

War is suddenly not going to be gimp you're still going to be the top dd stop crying.

[Amador]

Hello.

Thanks for all the feedback on this topic.

Sorry it took a bit to give you this information, but as I am sure you all read, we were out for the holidays.

There have been some comments asking for other weapon skills to be adjusted so that they are stronger. We actually looked into this, but due to the very large differences in values we determined it would be difficult because of the way it would tie into the balance of power between jobs. (In the case that things stayed the way they are, the chances that future abilities and equipment would have lower stats or simply not be possible to add would become increasingly high.)

The principle behind the current weapon skill adjustment follows the same principles for the aims of why warrior has been adjusted (Restraint, etc.):


Prevent becoming overpowered
Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)

　
The below adjustments have been set up on the test server.
This is the chance of critical hit for TP100%/200%/300% respectively.


Ukko’s Fury
Before adjustment: 30%/50%/80%
　↓
Test server version: 15%/25%/40%


Victory Smite
Before adjustment: 15%/30%/60%
　↓
Test server version: 10%/20%/35%

Since there are other abilities and equipment to take into account, although I cannot affirm anything just yet, we would like to see if we can perhaps raise the critical hit rate a bit after looking at your feedback and development/QA testing.

We will be putting the re-adjusted data onto the test server during the first update of the New Year and would like to continue to test this.

What the hell?

Stay consistent.

What's wrong with the current crit rate on the test server? It's fine as is.

I can see raising MNK's base to 15% @ 100% at least to match Ukko's.

However raising Ukko's Fury past 15%? What's the point in even nerfing it to begin with then?

15% 25% 40% is more than enough. What would the point be in 20% 30% 50%? 20% 25% 40% doesn't make sense either.

Leave it as is. It's balanced with the remainder of critical hit weapon skills.

If you made it 20% 100%, 25% 200% the difference between 100 and 200% becomes irrelevant. 300% is substantial, but you want at least some glory to fall at tiers of 200%. Not a bridging gap of 5%.

So again.

All for V. Smite being 15% @100% TP.

Completely against Ukko's Fury being boosted past 15% @100% TP, and ESPECIALLY against 200% and 300% are higher than current test server values.

[Atomic_Skull]

I think the problem with bringing the rest of the weapons up would have been empyrean becoming the new baseline for DD jobs. Mobs would get adjusted against these WS, which would affect everybody without an empyrean weapon.

And is it really game breaking to reduce what they can do? Have events suddenly become lolwar? {Warrior}{No Thanks} Level a real job!

They're just crying because they're getting their e-peen shortened.

[Coldbrand]

Hello.

Thanks for all the feedback on this topic.

Sorry it took a bit to give you this information, but as I am sure you all read, we were out for the holidays.

There have been some comments asking for other weapon skills to be adjusted so that they are stronger. We actually looked into this, but due to the very large differences in values we determined it would be difficult because of the way it would tie into the balance of power between jobs. (In the case that things stayed the way they are, the chances that future abilities and equipment would have lower stats or simply not be possible to add would become increasingly high.)

The principle behind the current weapon skill adjustment follows the same principles for the aims of why warrior has been adjusted (Restraint, etc.):


Prevent becoming overpowered
Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)

　
The below adjustments have been set up on the test server.
This is the chance of critical hit for TP100%/200%/300% respectively.


Ukko’s Fury
Before adjustment: 30%/50%/80%
　↓
Test server version: 15%/25%/40%


Victory Smite
Before adjustment: 15%/30%/60%
　↓
Test server version: 10%/20%/35%

Since there are other abilities and equipment to take into account, although I cannot affirm anything just yet, we would like to see if we can perhaps raise the critical hit rate a bit after looking at your feedback and development/QA testing.

We will be putting the re-adjusted data onto the test server during the first update of the New Year and would like to continue to test this.
So basically what you're saying is they're lazy? Why encourage the C and B students to do better when we can just hit the A student, right?

[newmonkey]

I think we all are tired too read that word "Balance"...
First give to us strong Job ability and Weaponskill that make you Enjoy the Work you spent for make Emperyans like Ukovasara and Verethragna (Both Terrible, Long Paths) but you will think also the work you do, will get payd back with 2 strong Emperyans, with very strong Weaponskills... so, we wasted our time? also why don't use your nice word called "Balance" on : Ochain: like 99% Block rate?
why don't use your nice word "Balance" on Wildfire? that Weaponskill overparse everyone in Voidwatch. that is not overpowered?
why don't use your nice word "Balance" on Tachi: Shoa? that ws is overpowered more than Tachi:Kaiten/Tachi:Fudo... so we made that Relics/Emperyan just for get overparsed by a Merit Weaponskill? seems you Square-Enix like use your "Balance" word too random and only on Warriors and Monks..

I'm so sick of people saying ukon path is long, no empy is hard to make to 90 gdi stop acting like they are.

My ls hammers the ukon/h2h path out we did one of each to 85 in less than a week for both, to get a top quality weapon in less than a week is not long.

They should remove the ws of the empyreans and add them all onto the 95 + version then they can unerf ukkos when people have actaully paid for the plates.

Oh and as for shoha get 300 tp use fudo then spam shoha and it's also far from overpowered either.

How on earth does it affect amano ? Most relics hardly used there relic weapon skill as it is. Were was all this uproar when empyreans came out and shit on relics ?

You cry babys are really pissing me off now.

[Atomic_Skull]

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/9394/bawwwwwbunny.jpg

Quoted text edited to reflect reality.

[Amador]

What kind of mentality do you even have? Oh right you're a galka.

Okay. Let's talk about Balance and let's talk about being -OVER POW-

So, you think what? 30% 50% 80% is SKILLFUL. It's hard WORKING?

You think it takes any type of ADEQUATE gear planning to achieve potential?

If ANYTHING is Lazy, it's WS with FREE critical hit rate.

THE IDEA, that you CAN seriously gear to the minimal, of the most minimal conditions of critical hit rate in a WS build and still ding over 60% OUTSIDE of Abyssea is LAZY.

It never took you planning to figure out your stats vs mobs, it doesn't take you time to figure out your critical hit rate and the potential increase of 1% critical hit rate or 3%.

It's a WS in which you stack WS DMG CRIT DMG STR Gorgets Belts More STR even go as far as to DUMP your dex for MORE STR.

You want to call people lazy because the WS they have doesn't have a free damage booster?

The truth is even Maschu +2 is ridiculous.

It's a ridiculously broken WS. The only reason it's so powerful is DUE to it's MASSIVE crit chance. DA, TA have high chances of Criticals. Therefore the WS can do insane damage.

Don't flaunt, Hard Work. All Empyreans take time to make, some less than others.

[Prothscar]

Someone implying that WAR, one of the two easiest jobs to play that even a drunken space monkey could achieve success at, takes skill? Lol'd.

I disagree with some of Amador's points though. Even with the crit rate lowered to 15% Ukko's Fury is the strongest weaponskill in the game. Several factors tie into this, fTP, WSC, the weapon itself having a ridiculous base damage, WAR's native abilities and traits, etc., not just the crit rate.

WAR can still achieve a rather massive crit rate on their weaponskill with proper buffs/equipment and nearly cap or cap dDEX while making minimal to no sacrifices in STR.

[Kitkat]

That's when you adjust the target mobs, give them crit defense bonus, and things of that nature rather than up and up gimping something

Yes, you could do this but at the same time you would be lowering the other jobs that have crit WS (thf, nin, dnc, drg, rng, cor) to still do less damage. I honestly don't see how lowering a 2 fold Gaxe WS that had such high crit rate base is a bad thing. While I can agree 15% is a bit much, I also see why it was seen as necessary given the options available to increase the Crit rate on war alone.

I'm a little more concerned about the V.Smite rebalance than I am the gaxe however since it is a h2h (aka 1hand) WS that doesn't have quite the enhancements backing it as war do. I say this based on comparison to gear access, passive traits, and JA primarily. Currently war has Crit Att bonus, where as mnk doesn't, and their JA to increase crit rate resets if a hit is missed during the build up period where as I don't believe restraint does. While it is true that mnk can benefit from a war using blood rage, this is not always going to be available (or practical in certain situations) and is also being changed just to be a crit rate enhancer. Would seem more realistic to leave Vsmite as is at 100%, but possibly adjust the 200 and 300% values.

I'm neither a mnk/pup nor a war so it is hard to give an accurate representation on this, but that is my 2cents worth.

[Prothscar]

Restraint does reset if you miss a hit. Impetus is the far superior buff, and possibly second only to Berserk in terms of overall awesome buffiness if not ahead of Berserk.There was no reason to adjust Victory Smite's already levelled out natural crit rate though.

[Disguise]

WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

The 2 jobs are MADE to output as much damage as possible, it's been that way since the 50 cap. To lower there damage even more 24 more levels is stupid, we are going to pretty much be outputting level 75 damage outside of abyssea.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

The 2 jobs are MADE to output as much damage as possible, it's been that way since the 50 cap. To lower there damage even more 24 more levels is stupid, we are going to pretty much be outputting level 75 damage outside of abyssea.

No more than all the other DD's, sorry, just because these two are over-powered that's SE's fault. They shouldn't be so much more powerful than the other DD's.

Ps. AHAHAHAHAHA Pain in the back, in what realm?

[Ophannus]

I struggle to hit 2k on DRG on Pil or Qilin with Chaos Roll, Food, Atmacite, Stalwarts, Champion's, Braver's drinks with enhanced Angon and WARs in my LS hit 3k without food or Stalwarts. With food and stalwarts alone WARs easily hit 5k-6k on Qilin and Pil while my damage hovers around 1500-2k.


Ukko's damage is not fair compared to other jobs or even other weapons. 5-6k is something I'd expect from a Relic WS or a Mythic WS, Emps can be made in a single week. Give this kind of damage output to Metatron's Torment and nobody would complain because those cost a crapton of time and money to make. Nobody would complain if relics did 5-7k on things. It's just that for the time/money spent on an 85 Ukon, the damage output is unfair compared to other empyreans,relics, mythics, job WS.

[Lokithor]

Wrong! WAR is seriously over-powered, if they upped other jobs it'd do nothing but make them equally over-powered.

You balance it to non over-powered first, then equal the other jobs that do the same role (aka DD's) to that area.
I'm not saying that the balance isn't currently wrong. I'm saying that SE's way to achieve balance is one that doesn't result in happy players except for the few douches that love to see anyone other than themselves get slapped down. Ukon has had the power it has had now for 14 levels. In that time, you can easily make adjustments to targets to deal with that side of the balance and then bring other jobs UP to achieve the player balance that you need. SE chooses an easier route by nerfing 1 job instead of improving a handful and in the process, upsets a good portion of their player base.

If you did it the other way, you would get many happy players whose jobs have been improved. The only unhappy players would be those douches who feed off other's misery.

Like I said before. SE just don't get it.

[Unctgtg]

If you want epeen just go to Abyssea, that is why it is there lol.

[Damane]

I struggle to hit 2k on DRG on Pil or Qilin with Chaos Roll, Food, Atmacite, Stalwarts, Champion's, Braver's drinks with enhanced Angon and WARs in my LS hit 3k without food or Stalwarts. With food and stalwarts alone WARs easily hit 5k-6k on Qilin and Pil while my damage hovers around 1500-2k.


Ukko's damage is not fair compared to other jobs or even other weapons. 5-6k is something I'd expect from a Relic WS or a Mythic WS, Emps can be made in a single week. Give this kind of damage output to Metatron's Torment and nobody would complain because those cost a crapton of time and money to make. Nobody would complain if relics did 5-7k on things. It's just that for the time/money spent on an 85 Ukon, the damage output is unfair compared to other empyreans,relics, mythics, job WS.

Metatron could really use some help compared to ukko's fury (even nerfed). You can achieve 2.5k+ dmg (sometimes rarley 3k) on kaggens, but you need to be buffed like hell. average dmg is 2k metatrons with normal buffs (aka berserk and food only). You can add as much STR and attack as you want to metatron, surpassing 3k consistently without mighty strikes is near impossible (on anything that has relative high defense). While you see tachi: shoha, resolution, ukyo's fury, victory smite shit all over the place :/.
Upheaval looked very promising, but its dmg hovers around metatrons damage.

[Kristal]

That's when you adjust the target mobs, give them crit defense bonus, and things of that nature rather than up and up gimping something

They did that with enfeebling spells. RDMs just love being utterly ineffective in their assigned role on most mobs!

[SNK]

Man all the tears are so delicious. I didn't even emo close to this when I found out Cloudsplitter sucked ass outside of a brew. So much crying over a slight nerf from an overpowered weapon. lol

[Kitkat]

WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

The 2 jobs are MADE to output as much damage as possible, it's been that way since the 50 cap. To lower there damage even more 24 more levels is stupid, we are going to pretty much be outputting level 75 damage outside of abyssea.

I'd like to point out that your "pain to make" comment is about as useful an argument as a person expecting revamps to the behavior of relic weapons on the same premises. The were originally "made to be top tier DD" and were a "pain to aquire" but have since been seriously outclassed in that department by emps, primarily due to their extremely unique build/behavior that hasn't aged well through the updates from 75.

War and mnk were made to be DD, but not made to be stupid amounts of DD at all times. Originally DD's shined in various circumstance, but were not all around stupidly over powered. Some like to play the sam card for 75 cap saying it was over powered, but looking at the build of the job and it's JA it was built to have higher WS frequency than any other job, which was then changed to allow other jobs this same luxury if at a lesser extent via sub.

The nerf of ukko's is long over due and I can't really understand why people are upset when other DD class couldn't come close to the performance of an U.K. war. Even a mediocrely geared war would surpass other DD with exceptional gear builds. That is not game balance. Someone else said it is douche bag mechanics for the dev or even a player to support a nerf to the WS, but looking at it from another perspective I think it is the exact opposite to expect 1 or 2 jobs to significantly out perform other jobs by not just a gap, but by leaps and bounds.

[tyrantsyn]

"shaking my head"

So many troll's, enjoying so much anguish.

Hey DEV team there a SS over on FFXIAH (http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/63228)right now of a RNG hitting a 20k + Barrage in VW. Wanna pass that along to the higher ups, I think SE may want to pass some balance down the line on that.

ugh

[Tsuneo]

This is what this thread is making me feel like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FYTc55nGEI

[tyrantsyn]

I struggle to hit 2k on DRG on Pil or Qilin with Chaos Roll, Food, Atmacite, Stalwarts, Champion's, Braver's drinks with enhanced Angon and WARs in my LS hit 3k without food or Stalwarts. With food and stalwarts alone WARs easily hit 5k-6k on Qilin and Pil while my damage hovers around 1500-2k.
.

With out buffs, just normal melee on WAR I see between 1.5 to 2k ukko's in VW content. 3k would be a high end lucky hit. With buffs up I'll see a lot more 2k to 3k's and if i'm lucky i'll see some higher numbers in there. IF your piling in all those things and hardly seeing "2k" the problem is right there. Your damage output is lacking because it needs a buff. If nerfing Ukko's/Blood rage/ and VS makes you feel like a better melee I don't know what to tell you. Because your still not hitting the numbers you'd like too see.

Let me ask you this are you /war or /sam? Like I said in another post WAR is design to output damage. Sam is design to increase weapon skill frequency. If your /sam that could be hurting your numbers.

[Brolic]

I struggle to hit 2k on DRG on Pil or Qilin with Chaos Roll, Food, Atmacite, Stalwarts, Champion's, Braver's drinks with enhanced Angon and WARs in my LS hit 3k without food or Stalwarts. With food and stalwarts alone WARs easily hit 5k-6k on Qilin and Pil while my damage hovers around 1500-2k.


Ukko's damage is not fair compared to other jobs or even other weapons. 5-6k is something I'd expect from a Relic WS or a Mythic WS, Emps can be made in a single week. Give this kind of damage output to Metatron's Torment and nobody would complain because those cost a crapton of time and money to make. Nobody would complain if relics did 5-7k on things. It's just that for the time/money spent on an 85 Ukon, the damage output is unfair compared to other empyreans,relics, mythics, job WS.

you're lying,

dont come in a thread full of ukko wars and tell us what our damage is. no one here is averaging 5k on any vw content.

[Coldbrand]

SE's way of balancing is kind of like the American public school system trying to lower the difficulty of the tests so a greater majority of students pass.

[Aarahs]

SE's way of balancing is kind of like the American public school system trying to lower the difficulty of the tests so a greater majority of students pass.

That makes no sense. For that to be a reasonable comparison, SE would be making it easier to do more damage. They would be buffing everything, not hammer the nail sticking out.

[Prothscar]

WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

The 2 jobs are MADE to output as much damage as possible, it's been that way since the 50 cap. To lower there damage even more 24 more levels is stupid, we are going to pretty much be outputting level 75 damage outside of abyssea.

So what are DRK and DRG made for? Procs?

And if a 10% maximum reduction in your weaponskill's damage is making you do the same damage as a level 75 WAR, then I suggest you look into your gear and playstyle before coming back here, because you're doing it horribly wrong.

[Brolic]

So what are DRK and DRG made for? Procs?

And if a 10% maximum reduction in your weaponskill's damage is making you do the same damage as a level 75 WAR, then I suggest you look into your gear and playstyle before coming back here, because you're doing it horribly wrong.

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

[Rohelius]

Yeah I Hear a lot of "im gonna do lvl75 damage" which is retarded to even think imo.
If your warrior is gonna suck that bad after the nerf then look at your gear and stop crying over having to put some real thought into your gear selection from now on, but I guess u can't blame a warrior for whinning about having to actually think about those kinda Things lol

[Prothscar]

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

I hope you're trolling. If not you are incredibly ignorant.

[Sparthos]

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d102/ama989010ama/uchihaha.gif

[Cream_Soda]

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game
http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg

[FrankReynolds]

drk is a tank and drg is the most(2nd?) efficient healer in the game

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DYje57V_BY

[macross]

Give me a break, relics are very easy to make too. Take your guild and each person go dynamis and farm you coins and you'll be done in a week too. There's absolutely no reason relics should hit for 5k dmg just cause they are relics.

What they should have done is made them gimp at 80, less gimp at 85, even less gimp at 90, then how they are at 95. Then you can't complain as much.

[Brolic]

i'd be pissed that i didnt get to rmt my chr

[Brolic]

I hope you're trolling. If not you are incredibly ignorant.

1\2 and 1\2 but pay tell how am i ignorant

[Tsuneo]

Yeah I Hear a lot of "im gonna do lvl75 damage" which is retarded to even think imo.
If your warrior is gonna suck that bad after the nerf then look at your gear and stop crying over having to put some real thought into your gear selection from now on, but I guess u can't blame a warrior for whinning about having to actually think about those kinda Things lol
Funny thing is your gear doesn't look too good yourself.

[Prothscar]

1\2 and 1\2 but pay tell how am i ignorant

DRG I'll give you being the most MP efficient healer by proxy, overall efficient? No.

DRK being a tank is lol reasoning. In this day and age when any DD job, including WAR, can tank most NMs effectively, using this as a basis for argument is ridiculous. Would even put WAR at slightly ahead of DRK simply due to Retaliation, as DRK's only tanking tools are... Drain and Dread Spikes. Stop the presses, serious shit up in here.

[FrankReynolds]

Give me a break, relics are very easy to make too. Take your guild and each person go dynamis and farm you coins and you'll be done in a week too. There's absolutely no reason relics should hit for 5k dmg just cause they are relics.

What they should have done is made them gimp at 80, less gimp at 85, even less gimp at 90, then how they are at 95. Then you can't complain as much.

I'm not sure what your trying to prove, but if I come to bismark, will you farm dynamis every day, and give me all of your coins? Just for one week. that's all I need.

[Brolic]

DRG I'll give you being the most MP efficient healer by proxy, overall efficient? No.

DRK being a tank is lol reasoning. In this day and age when any DD job, including WAR, can tank most NMs effectively, using this as a basis for argument is ridiculous. Would even put WAR at slightly ahead of DRK simply due to Retaliation, as DRK's only tanking tools are... Drain and Dread Spikes. Stop the presses, serious shit up in here.
they have catastrophe

[Chriscoffey]

they have catastrophe
You sir are ignorant. I can tank on any job but saying IT IS A TANK is retarded. A warrior can have a mage as healing so now it's more efficient as a tank and more raw damage. OH WAIT YOU MEAN SOLO. This damn low man solo shit is getting on my nerves when we are moving into more alliance fighting for end game not 1 man armies.

[FrankReynolds]

You sir are ignorant. I can tank on any job but saying IT IS A TANK is retarded. A warrior can have a mage as healing so now it's more efficient as a tank and more raw damage. OH WAIT YOU MEAN SOLO. This damn low man solo shit is getting on my nerves when we are moving into more alliance fighting for end game not 1 man armies.

I think you guys are missing the point.

[Prothscar]

There's two possible points: Trolling or Stupid. Pick your poison.

[Cljader1]

Macross will you stop with the emp vs relic bullshit, take that crap to that other thread...I dislike seeing your relic weapon hating electric slide pass my computer screen.

[FrankReynolds]

There's two possible points: Trolling or Stupid. Pick your poison.

Well, I think he's basically saying that wars used to just deliver damage, and darks used to have other purposes like tanking with cata. SO really, war is functioning correctly on the DD front. The problem is that WHMs are OP healers, and Keeping hate by spamming magic / abilities doesn't work anymore. So war is actually the only thing not in need of adjustment in the equation.

[Prothscar]

Don't know where to begin with that post, so not going to bother. So many things wrong though. Saying DRK should tank because of a relic WS? What the fuck

If we want to use relic weaponskills as an average, which is retarded but I'll play your game, Metatron Torment says hai2u.






Unrelated: No such thing as an OP healer btw. With DDing, you can always do better. With healing, it's not about being better, it's about being sufficient; keeping people properly healed in an efficient manner. You cannot keep someone healed passed 100% (well technically Afflatus Solace says otherwise, but meh, it's a liberty that can easily be done without and is overall useless, that's another subject however). Other jobs will either be sufficient, or insufficient. If sufficient, their other abilities would make them more desirable than WHM.

At 75 for example... RDM. Now RDMs whine about wanting it back, when back in the day they whined about having to heal too much.

[FrankReynolds]

Don't know where to begin with that post, so not going to bother. So many things wrong though. Saying DRK should tank because of a relic WS? What the fuck

If we want to use relic weaponskills as an average, which is retarded but I'll play your game, Metatron Torment says hai2u.


Saying War is OP because Empy WS What the fuck?

anyways, I was just trying to interpret his post.



Unrelated: No such thing as an OP healer btw. With DDing, you can always do better. With healing, it's not about being better, it's about being sufficient; keeping people properly healed in an efficient manner. You cannot keep someone healed passed 100% (well technically Afflatus Solace says otherwise, but meh, it's a liberty that can easily be done without and is overall useless, that's another subject however). Other jobs will either be sufficient, or insufficient. If sufficient, their other abilities would make them more desirable than WHM.

At 75 for example... RDM. Now RDMs whine about wanting it back, when back in the day they whined about having to heal too much.


Being sufficient means being able to keep a tank alive, and allow DDs to chip away at an NM. Being OP means that everyone can run in, and go ape shit, and whoever deals the most damage can tank because there is no amount of damage that the WHM can't cure through. Not that I care, but this is one of the reasons that jobs that can't beat war at damage are suffering. Not because warrior has an amazing WS, But because all the other stuff is sorta unimportant now.

[Prothscar]

Saying War is OP because Empy WS What the fuck?

anyways, I was just trying to interpret his post.


Because Empy WS is comparable to Relic. I see, I see.





Being sufficient means being able to keep a tank alive, and allow DDs to chip away at an NM. Being OP means that everyone can run in, and go ape shit, and whoever deals the most damage can tank because there is no amount of damage that the WHM can't cure through. Not that I care, but this is one of the reasons that jobs that can't beat war at damage are suffering. Not because warrior has an amazing WS, But because all the other stuff is sorta unimportant now.

That isn't WHM being OP. That's abundance of Refresh in Abyssea on top of stats being elevated well beyond god levels (thus requiring the higher tier cures in some cases, same cannot be said for outside of abyssea except for dire circumstances), and Fanatics Drinks and abundance of ethers in Voidwatch along with usually having 2-3 healers per alliance. I'd like to see a single WHM heal an entire Voidwatch Alliance if you set the condition of no temp items allowed. Your argument is severely flawed. Read again what I said, as it's all true.

[FrankReynolds]

That isn't WHM being OP. That's abundance of Refresh in Abyssea on top of stats being elevated well beyond god levels (thus requiring the higher tier cures in some cases, same cannot be said for outside of abyssea except for dire circumstances), and Fanatics Drinks and abundance of ethers in Voidwatch along with usually having 2-3 healers per alliance. I'd like to see a single WHM heal an entire Voidwatch Alliance if you set the condition of no temp items allowed. Your argument is severely flawed. Read again what I said, as it's all true.

End game events always had 2-3 healers in the past. The difference was that you needed a tank with survival skills. You couldn't just eat massive damage and cure out of it. Why would anyone try to zerg an NM with no temps or buffs? What exactly are you fighting?

[Prothscar]

if you already have the answer to that question then you already see why WHM isn't OP, you're just looking for a scapegoat. I digress, this isn't a thread about WHM.

[kingfury]

There have been some comments asking for other weapon skills to be adjusted so that they are stronger. We actually looked into this, but due to the very large differences in values we determined it would be difficult because of the way it would tie into the balance of power between jobs. (In the case that things stayed the way they are, the chances that future abilities and equipment would have lower stats or simply not be possible to add would become increasingly high.)

The principle behind the current weapon skill adjustment follows the same principles for the aims of why warrior has been adjusted (Restraint, etc.):


Prevent becoming overpowered
Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)

------------------
I was going to toss my hands up on this topic seeing as I'm very bias on the subject being a 9yr career WAR, but the need to chime in on the matter of finding a creative solution to the "Balance between all jobs" problem is far too strong to just be quiet about. I can voice my opinion comfortably without falling victim to my bias however, so this shouldn't come off as a "Warrior's Cry" for no change to the job.

I can't speak for everyone that voiced their wishes to enhance the damage dealt by other jobs in FFXI to the point of WAR and MNK, but when I suggested "Make other weaker Weapon skills stronger", I didn't mean to just increase raw damage values across the board to match that of WARs and MNKs. I'm suggesting something that would require SOME NEW creative work and strategy from the DEVs indeed which could create a sense of balance across every job that would still give players a feeling of pride as to how they deal damage similar to how WARs feel now.

I for one was extremely proud of my Ukkon damage both in and outside of Abyssea because it gave me this feeling of "It's about damn time I was rewarded for all my skill-ups and hard work all these years!" I was happy even though I felt a little guilty that other jobs couldn't reach the same damage numbers, because I felt it was WARs natural "High-level" progression to slaughter enemies with their new found abilities and weapon skills. That's not to say that it was fair, but it did feel really natural to me. That leads us to where we are today though however, the point of how other jobs can achieve the same natural "High-level" progression with their respective weapon skills. My suggestions are as follows:


Don't bring Damage Dealing jobs (WAR, MNK) that excel at producing high damage backwards to meet the lackluster numbers of other jobs, because their numbers SHOULD NOT be lackluster in the 1st place. Instead...
Create new Job specific abilities/methods that help to "naturally" increase the weapon skill damage potential of other jobs in comparison to that of what WARs and MNKs can produce.
Don't encumber any of the FFXI job's ability to produce high damage AT ALL after years of skilling up their respective weapons for their jobs. Instead reward them with new found DEPTH with their weapons that enhance game play and their dedication to perfecting the way they deal damage.
(For example) Give a WHM the option to activate a new ability that would unlock their potential to couple their "Buffing" magic to greatly enhance their club weapon skill damage. Alternatively, they could embed their Divine magic into their weapon skills for a time that greatly enhances their potential to deal heavy damage.
Give every job this new type of Job specific methods of enhancing their potential to deal heavy damage so NO ONE has to be weaker. No job has to be left out of the wonderful feeling of "It's about damn time I can slaughter something!" Give every player that has worked hard for years to build their characters the reward of true and unique power for their respective jobs.


I don't believe that any job has to be powered down after 25 levels of supposed "new found power". Thanks for listening to our feedback.

[tyrantsyn]

As always King, well said and great suggestion.

[Coldbrand]

They're going to go through with this nerf whether we like it or not, the mocchi version of this post, unlike ours, has a bunch of likes.

[Tsuneo]

You guys must not check the JP dev tracker, but they changed the crit rate for both WS's. They are going to be introduced on the test server for testing at some point.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18579-dev1064-%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%82%B3%E3%80%81%E3%83%93%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9E%E5%BC%B1%E4%BD%93?p=258284#post258284

[Neisan_Quetz]

According to Kincard, it seems they will scale back the crit nerf on UF in exchange for not giving War critical attack bonus III. I don't know about VS though.

[Kitkat]

"shaking my head"

So many troll's, enjoying so much anguish.

Hey DEV team there a SS over on FFXIAH (http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/63228)right now of a RNG hitting a 20k + Barrage in VW. Wanna pass that along to the higher ups, I think SE may want to pass some balance down the line on that.

ugh

Find it interesting you want to compare a standard attack mechanic that can also crit, have hidden proc activate(3x damage @ 13% activation, and if follows suit only procs on first hit(checked the profile to find they are a relic gun user)), is against a piercing weak-mob, and also stacks with a low 5% set bonus proc (2x damage) that is upwards of 8 hits (9 with af hands) while using a 71+127dmg weapon vs a 2 fold (possible 4 fold with DA proc) WS that still does upwards of 8k on the very same mob your SS link connects to.

BG has a nice collection of Wars doing 5300-6.4k on Pil and 5400 with Vsmite. Would be nice to come close to that with CdC, but my personal best capped out at 3.2k with averages hovering a good 2/3 of what the mnk or war puts out on average.

Honestly, if you want to bring time this was allowed before nerf came into the picture I'd like to point you in the direction of Rng who used to never have distance penalties. Then SE took out the nerf bat and it took nearly 4 years just to get 2/3 that strength back via the addition of a JA that can be dispelled immediately after being put up.

Sorry, but whether you agree with it or not, this was needed. You just won't be able to put out stupid amounts of DD over every other DD, doesn't mean you aren't still a DD. Worse off, it is sad when people want to say others are lazy cause they can't pull out 3-5k WS even with some of the best gear available to them. If I want to pull out that kind of damage I always have abyssea, but the point of the development cycle was to pull away from easy mode because it was too easy, and to balance the distribution of power through the jobs classified as DD. As it currently stands you have DD, then you have MNK and War in a class of their own. You'll still do more damage than a non-emp mnk or war, you'll still be along the top tier of DD....you just won't be putting out exceedingly high WS as easily, just like the rest of the DD.

[Anewie]

This thread is embarrassing.. . .

[wish12oz]

This thread is embarrassing.. . .

So is hiding behind mules.

[Prothscar]

Looks like the whiners are getting their way, Ukko's Fury appears to be getting bumped down only to 20%, which has Ukko's Fury losing a maximum of 6% of its overall effectiveness.

[tyrantsyn]

Find it interesting you want to compare a standard attack mechanic that can also crit, have hidden proc activate(3x damage @ 13% activation, and if follows suit only procs on first hit(checked the profile to find they are a relic gun user)), is against a piercing weak-mob, and also stacks with a low 5% set bonus proc (2x damage) that is upwards of 8 hits (9 with af hands) while using a 71+127dmg weapon vs a 2 fold (possible 4 fold with DA proc) WS that still does upwards of 8k on the very same mob your SS link connects to.

BG has a nice collection of Wars doing 5300-6.4k on Pil and 5400 with Vsmite. Would be nice to come close to that with CdC, but my personal best capped out at 3.2k with averages hovering a good 2/3 of what the mnk or war puts out on average.
.

When I posted that I was in a mind set of wtf'ery. I understand everything that goes into a ws like that, and how RNG has a bonus on that particular mob weakness. Still even IF a WAR is hitting back to back 5k to 6.5k ukko's in this situation it would still take them 3 ws + melee hits to match that kind of damage. From my personal experience with WAR there's no such thing as back to back 5k + ukko's outside abyssea. 5k+ to me is a lucky proc with totally torque out buffs.

Second off let me say I'm glad that RNG can hit those kind of numbers. I'm sure that guy/gal has put a lot of time money and energy into being able to produce that hit. And deserves to get it.

Lastly, those numbers your getting on CDC sound great to me. And hope to see them myself when I get around to finishing my Almace. But like you mention in your first paragraph about base damage, a sword is never going to see or match the numbers on a Ukon GA. So at 3.2k I say your top of the food chain for a sword user.

[Finuve]

would love to see those CDC numbers on Quietus...or hell Torcleaver hitting that outside abyssea would be nice

[Anewie]

Looks like the whiners are getting their way, Ukko's Fury appears to be getting bumped down only to 20%, which has Ukko's Fury losing a maximum of 6% of its overall effectiveness.


Ugh. I'm disgusted.

I'd say "at least we don't have to hear them crying anymore" but the same people crying over such an minimal, but very necessary nerf, will find something else to whine about.

Really wish SE would grow some balls and release a statement saying: The following jobs "care cups" have emptied
1. SAM
2. WAR
3. MNK
4. BLM
5. WHM
6. DNC

In addition to this, we also plan on looking into fixing the following jobs so they SUCK LESS
1. SMN
2. BST
3. RDM
4. RNG
5. DRK


Not to mention, i'm gonna go on a limb and say BRD, COR need some buffs too. I'm not too sure about cor, but where is BRDs tier 3 elegy, march, mambo, mandrigal? I believe they only got carols with the last update. I'm sure cor is struggling too.

Support jobs just aren't what they used to be, and OMG SMN is a hot mess job. It is really sad lv.70 bps > lvl 90+ ones. Embarrassing.

Whenever I hear someone say their "main" is SMN, or DRK, I just feel so bad for them. Lol, im sure i'm not the only one.

[Tsuneo]

Whining about whining, I love the hypocrisy.

[Brolic]

Ugh. I'm disgusted.

I'd say "at least we don't have to hear them crying anymore" but the same people crying over such an minimal, but very necessary nerf, will find something else to whine about.

Really wish SE would grow some balls and release a statement saying: The following jobs "care cups" have emptied
1. SAM
2. WAR
3. MNK
4. BLM
5. WHM
6. DNC

In addition to this, we also plan on looking into fixing the following jobs so they SUCK LESS
1. SMN
2. BST
3. RDM
4. RNG
5. DRK


Not to mention, i'm gonna go on a limb and say BRD, COR need some buffs too. I'm not too sure about cor, but where is BRDs tier 3 elegy, march, mambo, mandrigal? I believe they only got carols with the last update. I'm sure cor is struggling too.

Support jobs just aren't what they used to be, and OMG SMN is a hot mess job. It is really sad lv.70 bps > lvl 90+ ones. Embarrassing.

Whenever I hear someone say their "main" is SMN, or DRK, I just feel so bad for them. Lol, im sure i'm not the only one.

cor and rngs hardly need a fixing.

[tyrantsyn]

Ugh. I'm disgusted.

I'd say "at least we don't have to hear them crying anymore" but the same people crying over such an minimal, but very necessary nerf, will find something else to whine about.


Why are you in here? If you don't want to hear ppl discuss there dislike for the nerf which this thread is for. Go make another thread where you can discuss what a great thing the nerf would be.

[Damane]

cor and rngs hardly need a fixing.

I agree on the cor part, but disagree on the rng part. While yes RNG can do nice and good dmg, it could use a chunk on the damage department, while ALSO giving it a boost in the defense department with some abilitys (look at manawall for example). The only true glasscannon we have in FFXI atm is RNG. 1 Defensive move aint gonna hurt that job...

[Camate]

As a result of trends on the test server as well as development and QA testing, we will be re-adjusting the critical hit rate from TP.

Ukko’s Fury
<table width="400" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="55%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"></td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP100</td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP200</td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP300</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Pre-adjustment rate</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">30%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">50%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">80%</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Current rate on test server</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">15%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">25%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">40%</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Re-adjusted rate</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">20%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">35%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">55%</td></tr></table>※In exchange for slightly raising the critical hit rate with the re-adjustment, the two adjustments that were planned to take place along with this to enhance the effects of Double Attack and Critical Hit Bonus will both be put off for the time (Edited: 1/10/2012)

Victory Smite
<table width="400" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="55%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"></td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP100</td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP200</td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP300</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Pre-adjustment rate</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">15%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">30%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">60%</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Current rate on test server</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">10%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">20%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">35%</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Re-adjusted rate</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">10%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">25%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">45%</td></tr></table>

We plan on implementing these changes to the test server at the end of next week. Please continue to let us know your feedback.

[Amador]

I just read the JP Forum section which states:

Ukko's Fury new numbers

100=20% 200 = 35% 300 = 55%

Victory Smite new numbers

100 = 10% 200 = 25% 300 = 45%

This is really dumb.

Again why nerf it to begin with?

Why belittle Victory Smite and leave that at 10% while raising Ukko's Fury to 20% at 100% TP?

What is the thought process behind that?

It doesn't seem like there is any. It seems like you're just appeasing the bigger crowd because they're mouthing and crying that they'll quit.

Where's the SQ Dev Spine at? It doesn't seem like any of them have any.

The fun part is, whenever Blood Rage is used guess what? They have that 85% Critical Hit Rate at 300% TP. Meaning, -WHAT CHANGED?-

Through gear that's still 100% Critical Hit Rate in Voidwatch, Abyssea, Any and every event.

What balance have you fixed? All the DEV team has managed to do is Humiliate their idea on balance. They've become a parody. Tanaka mainly.

You went from putting Warrior on that Balance scale you wanted. To basically leaving it where it was, the only thing you're nerfing at this point is Blood Rage, which hurts the people who around the Warrior more so than the Warrior itself.

Then the parody continues.

Dev Team: Let's leave MNK at 10%.

Why? If anything, more than Warrior they deserve to be at that 15% from the get go.

What "feed back" is expected from the community? The Warrior community just got their bone back, they're now satisfied because the Dev Team has managed to turn from an actually balanced idea to a pointless, waste of time. Yet Again.

That's right. A pointless waste of time.

I don't know what's more aggravating. This sea saw game the DEVS are playing, or their lack of direct vision to the end result which they want. It seems like we're paying a pair of Silicon Valley Tech Students to make a game using RPG maker. It doesn't seem like this division can offer anything else at this point.

To the Dev Team, and please forward this question(s).

1: Do you have an end goal you are trying to reach with Final Fantasy 11?

2: What does the DEV team have to offer the community of 11 players, to continue interest in the game besides pointless nerfs, and revamping of old areas?

Back to Ukko's Fury and V. Smite.

The adjustments you have made to Ukko's Fury are worthless. The only thing you're doing to Victory Smite, is making it weaker so people can think that the NEW worthless WS has some room of glory outside of PUP.

The truth is you've gone ahead and hurt Victory Smite for no reason.

I hope that the Dev team has something big in store for us. This is all just a joke at this point. Maybe they'll drag it out till April then say that it was what they considered an Early April fool's joke.

tl;dr?

I am disappointed in the DEV teams ability to propose new and and refreshing ideas, towards a positive goal. I am disappointed in their lack of consistency, lack of spine regarding decisions. I am tired of their single job targeting adjustments, nerfs, and buffs. I am tired of their ball passing on projects like Final Fantasy 11.

I really wish someone was hired with enough insight, foresight and dedication to propose genuinely well thought plans and ideas.

Go ahead, I challenge you to let your DEV team read this post, I challenge Mr. Tanaka to read it, I challenge any self-respecting leader of Final Fantasy 11 to give a straight answer or whatever answer they can come up with.

[Anewie]

I just read the JP Forum section which states:


This is really dumb.

Again why nerf it to begin with?



http://i52.tinypic.com/2mn5hxf.gif

[FrankReynolds]

here's a Picture of my Girlfriend

Is that really the best gif you could come up with? Go Google some images or something. Try to keep your trolling entertaining at least.

[Alhanelem]

The Ukko's adjustments are a bit more reasonable now. Victory Smite however, is not. I don't see why it needed to be adjusted at all, but the minimum should still be 15%, or at least 12.5%.

And why do we have to give up something else just to get a nerf be less of a nerf?

[Amador]

The Ukko's adjustments are a bit more reasonable now. Victory Smite however, is not. I don't see why it needed to be adjusted at all, but the minimum should still be 15%, or at least 12.5%.

And why do we have to give up something else just to get a nerf be less of a nerf?

God, everytime you post. Non-sense. WHY 12.5%? What even makes that number process in your head?

That you would even say that the Ukko's Fury adjustment is "More reasonable" is just so annoying. I'm with you on V.Smite, that makes sense at 15%.

Ah man, Al. You make me laugh like no other galka man. Sport that pup hat. Wear it proud.

[brayen]

Smite:
honestly smite seems fine with its initial value(at least at 100%) not sure why all this work over making it weaker when it is not that outrageously powerful to begin with. With the "re-adjusted" values i am vastly disappointed.

Ukon's/war:
the revised distribution on Ukon's seems ok(since the dev NEED this nerf for some reason) however i see no reason why that would affect the other adjustments planned

[Feliciaa]

The 10% Victory Smite is because Impetus adds 1% crit hit rate per hit. Plus if you have Tantra Cyclas +2 you also gain 1% crit hit dmg.

[Amador]

A 5% drop is worthless on 100% TP. IF anything look at the 300% TP Values.

80% Crit Rate, 65% Crit Rate. Those value's were the only ones who actually needed the adjustment.

As far as Ukon goes, the FIRST nerf Adjustments made it perfectly fine, this 2nd set makes it pointless to even nerf it at all.

[Siiri]

A 5% drop is worthless on 100% TP. IF anything look at the 300% TP Values.

80% Crit Rate, 65% Crit Rate. Those value's were the only ones who actually needed the adjustment.

As far as Ukon goes, the FIRST nerf Adjustments made it perfectly fine, this 2nd set makes it pointless to even nerf it at all.

The 300% tp is now 55%, not 65%, down from the original 80%. Seems ok. It needed a nerf hope this is a middle ground for people.

[Insaniac]

Ukko's - Looks much more reasonable now.

V. Smite - Shouldn't be nerfed at all.

Blood Rage - Why isn't this being discussed? If WARs don't get crit damage bonus 3 anymore then keeping the damage boost on BR should be fine. I didn't understand this nerf in the first place since it's AoE and helps everyone. Nerfing it for the sake of not overpowering WAR when it boosts everyone in their party doesn't make much sense.

[FrankReynolds]

Ukko's - Looks much more reasonable now.

V. Smite - Shouldn't be nerfed at all.

Blood Rage - Why isn't this being discussed? If WARs don't get crit damage bonus 3 anymore then keeping the damage boost on BR should be fine. I didn't understand this nerf in the first place since it's AoE and helps everyone. Nerfing it for the sake of not overpowering WAR when it boosts everyone in their party doesn't make much sense.

All I can guess is that they figured there were too many wars, and thus it was always up? Dunno, it's lame though.

[Amador]

The 300% tp is now 55%, not 65%, down from the original 80%. Seems ok. It needed a nerf hope this is a middle ground for people.

Re-read.

300% Ukko's used to be 80% Critical Hit Rate, and Smite 65%

That's what I meant that those are the main reasons I see for the nerf. Aside of Ukko's Fury being 30% at 100% and V. Smite being 20% @ 100%.

I feel that the value's for both @ 100% should be 15%.

I feel that the value for 300% should not go over 40%.

[Alhanelem]

God, everytime you post. Non-sense. WHY 12.5%? What even makes that number process in your head?

That you would even say that the Ukko's Fury adjustment is "More reasonable" is just so annoying. I'm with you on V.Smite, that makes sense at 15%.

Ah man, Al. You make me laugh like no other galka man. Sport that pup hat. Wear it proud.
Is your only purpose on this forum to attack me? WHY 12.5%? I don't know, maybe because it would be a comprimise between SE's proposed value and the current value? Why does that make no sense to you at all?

The inflammatory nature of your posting tells me that you're just being an arse because you can.

[Siiri]

Re-read.

300% Ukko's used to be 80% Critical Hit Rate, and Smite 65%

That's what I meant that those are the main reasons I see for the nerf. Aside of Ukko's Fury being 30% at 100% and V. Smite being 20% @ 100%.

I feel that the value's for both @ 100% should be 15%.

I feel that the value for 300% should not go over 40%.

Ah, ok, get it now. Yeah, 80% at 300 tp was sick, who thought that was ever fair.

[Helel]

I don't understand why people care so much about this nerf. War serves a single purpose: to deal damage, which can be accomplished by any number of other jobs. Get off the bandwagon and play a different job for once. Same can be said for mnk.

[Alhanelem]

I don't understand why people care so much about this nerf. War serves a single purpose: to deal damage, which can be accomplished by any number of other jobs. Get off the bandwagon and play a different job for once. Same can be said for mnk.
Most people would rather see other jobs strengthened more than WAR made worse. MNK is really fine where it is, or at least, Victory Smite isn't the real reason MNK is good.

Also, basing job related adjustments on a special weapon skill only available with a certain weapon is silly. What about all the other weapons WAR might need to use? Should they be denied the originally planned crit rate boost just to trade off for a weapon-specific WS not getting nerfed as hard?

[Prothscar]

And those people don't see why that's an enormous undertaking as well as how it would be the incorrect decision on SE's part.

[Cream_Soda]

As a result of trends on the test server as well as development and QA testing, we will be re-adjusting the critical hit rate from TP.


Ukko’s Fury
<table width="400" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="55%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"></td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP100</td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP200</td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP300</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Pre-adjustment rate</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">30%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">50%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">80%</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Current rate on test server</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">15%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">25%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">40%</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Re-adjusted rate</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">20%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">35%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">55%</td></tr></table>※In exchange for slightly raising the critical hit rate with the re-adjustment, of the two adjustments that were planned to take place along with this to enhance the effects of Double Attack and Critical Hit Bonus, we will now only be adjusting Double Attack.




Victory Smite
<table width="400" border="0" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1" class="ta01"><tr valign="middle" align="center" class="th01"><td width="55%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7"></td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP100</td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP200</td><td width="15%" align="center" class="th01" bgcolor="#a8d0d7">TP300</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Pre-adjustment rate</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">15%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">30%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">60%</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Current rate on test server</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">10%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">20%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#f5fafb">35%</td></tr><tr valign="middle" class="td01"><td bgcolor="#c6e9ef">Re-adjusted rate</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">10%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">25%</td><td align="center" bgcolor="#eaf2f3">45%</td></tr></table>


We plan on implementing these changes to the test server at the end of next week. Please continue to let us know your feedback.

This doesn't really help much. I don't really sit and hold onto TP much. Most of the other crit ws have a base rate of 15%, why lower the 100tp rate for mnk?

I'd rather have put it back to 15% and keep the original nerf on 200 and 300% tp.

[Anewie]

I'm sure insulting the translators/moderators is a surefire way of getting them to see things your way and pass word along to the devs.

At least show a fraction of respect, it hurts to see that kind of attitude.

/bow to this.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

No KF, I'm not singling you out, you just used a buzz word.
Don't bring Damage Dealing jobs (WAR, MNK) that excel at producing high damage backwardsAside from blood rage(Which I don't understand because the point of war is to crit.)the nerf you're all talking about is a WS nerf, not a job nerf. They were never meant to produce the damge they do in the first place. In actuality this is a fix, not a nerf and to be honest, it's needed. SE's actions here are the correct responce to the issue. People are lacking propor forthought into the problem at hand. Increasing other jobs to match is absolutely not the correct responce. Again I reinterate, this has nothing to do with jobs, and everything to do with a WS. You need to stop treating it like a job issue or job nerf. Upping everyone else will "nerf" the game. You'll just end up turning everything into munchkin(Look it up yourself.) and the whole game will become pointless and boring. And when you up everything like that, people are just going to want everything to keep increasing. There'll be no end to it.

[Prothscar]

Blood Rage didn't have to be nerfed, Crit Attack Bonus II could have still been put into effect. Ukko's Fury was the only thing that needed adjustment.

MNK/PUP needed no nerf, Victory Smite was fine at its original crit distribution.

People complaining about the wrong things. :c

[Olor]

yeah breaking the job to fix the weapon skill is a little weird

[Francisco]

Get off the bandwagon and play a different job for once. Same can be said for mnk.

Not that this is really relevant, but not every WAR and MNK is bandwagon... half of the monks that are bandwagon are utter trash anyway and are using Asuran Fists with Furor Cesti.



Also, basing job related adjustments on a special weapon skill only available with a certain weapon is silly. What about all the other weapons WAR might need to use? Should they be denied the originally planned crit rate boost just to trade off for a weapon-specific WS not getting nerfed as hard?

This, 100%... I don't even know why they're going after Blood Rage... sure it's a sick bonus, but it at least benefits other jobs... it isn't exclusive to Ukko's Fury... and it's only 30 seconds every 5 minutes. If you really need to target Ukko's Fury, limit the amount of critical hit bonus it can gain from outside buffs.

Not every job needs to be a top DD or a incredible healer.... every job just needs a use.

[kingfury]

No KF, I'm not singling you out, you just used a buzz word.Aside from blood rage(Which I don't understand because the point of war is to crit.)the nerf you're all talking about is a WS nerf, not a job nerf. They were never meant to produce the damge they do in the first place. In actuality this is a fix, not a nerf and to be honest, it's needed. SE's actions here are the correct responce to the issue. People are lacking propor forthought into the problem at hand. Increasing other jobs to match is absolutely not the correct responce. Again I reinterate, this has nothing to do with jobs, and everything to do with a WS. You need to stop treating it like a job issue or job nerf. Upping everyone else will "nerf" the game. You'll just end up turning everything into munchkin(Look it up yourself.) and the whole game will become pointless and boring. And when you up everything like that, people are just going to want everything to keep increasing. There'll be no end to it.
-----------------
No worries on the response to what I posted of course, we're all discussing our opinions here.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree that the "correction" of the weapon skill may or may not help the overall system of things. Only time will tell. However, when the Devs said their goals based on this "correction" is to "Establish balance between warrior and other jobs (make it easier to balance)", that's where my views and suggestions are aiming.

I do believe that allowing players the "opportunity"(in quotes because it should be something a player should have to strive to accomplish with skill and technique along with gear and planning) to become powerhouses is inevitable in MMORPGs, and it's very much the job of the Devs to continue to meet that reality by constantly creating new and more challenging content over time to keep those players happy. The only time the horrid "munchkin" effect should come into play is when a veteran player encounters OLDER/WEAKER content. No one should ever blame players of a 10yr old game for wanting to be much more powerful than they've been in the past.

Many jobs have been sending their concerns for more strength for their jobs for years(DRK,DRG,RDM,RNG,etc.), so this topic at hand is indeed still a major conversation concerning the balancing of "damage output performance" on every job and the proper methods of achieving that balance. My post is just a stab at a possible solution for improving weapon skill damage at the very least on all jobs by creating creative and unique job specific opportunities to do so.

[ShadowHeart]

i used to love war + monk until they all became an empyrean fad job .....

i barely play any of them anymore :( used to love them but honestly they did get over powered with empyrean ws's in comparison to other job ws's hence the huge fad and rage because everyone is one now lol

i don't feel sorry for any of the bandwagon riders sorry kind if makes me chuckle to see them all /cry

[Motenten]

This doesn't really help much. I don't really sit and hold onto TP much. Most of the other crit ws have a base rate of 15%, why lower the 100tp rate for mnk?

I'd rather have put it back to 15% and keep the original nerf on 200 and 300% tp.

Indeed. 15%/25%/35% would have been fine; maybe 15%/25%/40% if you want to be generous with the 200-300 TP range. Mnks certainly won't throw as much of a fit over things as all the wars have, but I don't see a terribly strong reason to make that adjustment at the 100 TP level when it seems (at a guess, since full reasoning has never really been given) most of the problems were at 300 TP due to the abundant availability of TP wings in Voidwatch.

[newmonkey]

Let's hope you boost bravura and spharai further then se putting ukkos back and nerfing war itself is another blow against bravura.

[tyrantsyn]

A 5% drop is worthless on 100% TP. IF anything look at the 300% TP Values.

80% Crit Rate, 65% Crit Rate. Those value's were the only ones who actually needed the adjustment.

As far as Ukon goes, the FIRST nerf Adjustments made it perfectly fine, this 2nd set makes it pointless to even nerf it at all.

Seeing that they actually increase the value's base on players response. I'd have to say your wrong.


Ukko's - Looks much more reasonable now.

V. Smite - Shouldn't be nerfed at all.

Blood Rage - Why isn't this being discussed? If WARs don't get crit damage bonus 3 anymore then keeping the damage boost on BR should be fine. I didn't understand this nerf in the first place since it's AoE and helps everyone. Nerfing it for the sake of not overpowering WAR when it boosts everyone in their party doesn't make much sense.

Yeah I noticed this too. I'd rather take a % drop than lose it all together. With the player base asking for improvements across the board with damage, it kind of makes you wonder why they'd nerf a way to help other player out with their damage output.


No KF, I'm not singling you out, you just used a buzz word.Aside from blood rage(Which I don't understand because the point of war is to crit.)the nerf you're all talking about is a WS nerf, not a job nerf. They were never meant to produce the damge they do in the first place. In actuality this is a fix, not a nerf and to be honest, it's needed. SE's actions here are the correct responce to the issue. People are lacking propor forthought into the problem at hand. Increasing other jobs to match is absolutely not the correct responce. Again I reinterate, this has nothing to do with jobs, and everything to do with a WS. You need to stop treating it like a job issue or job nerf. Upping everyone else will "nerf" the game. You'll just end up turning everything into munchkin(Look it up yourself.) and the whole game will become pointless and boring. And when you up everything like that, people are just going to want everything to keep increasing. There'll be no end to it.

Not to single you out but i've heard this said a few times before. Does any one really believe that this kind of thing wasn't tested out before they added it to the game. I know the test servers weren't running yet when Ukon/ukko's/Blood rage was introduced. But some one had to have tested this thing and said "It looks fair too me/us."

[Amador]

So, one of my posts got deleted today.


Relevant sections from the FINAL FANTASY XI Guidelines:
Posting that constitutes discrimination against another forum member or group (also including forming groups for the purpose of discrimination), insults, slander, libel, harassment of a group or individual.
Use of inappropriate or aggressive language.
Posting aimed to create a negative impact on the community or its members.
Posting seeking to damage or disparage Square Enix, the forum, FINAL FANTASY XI, or others.
Posting content that seeks to interfere with the running of FINAL FANTASY XI.
Posting content that criticises either Square Enix staff or specific individuals

Ironic.

[Cljader1]

lol all these mnk, pup and war crybabies on here...its poetic justice most of you guys was teasing us drks when we expressed are complaints when SE nerfed us into oblivion calling us emo...this is what you get, you guys told us drk is fine and too stop crying now I'm saying war, mnk and pup is fine STOP Crying!!!!

[Cream_Soda]

lol all these mnk, pup and war crybabies on here...its poetic justice most of you guys was teasing us drks when we expressed are complaints when SE nerfed us into oblivion calling us emo...this is what you get, you guys told us drk is fine and too stop crying now I'm saying war, mnk and pup is fine STOP Crying!!!!
Funniest part about this is that you're still under us, even after the nerf :)

No need to be salty bro

[Dart]

any drk worth his salt as a player already lvl'd war or sam and did an empy or has the new gkatana ws. I don't see the point of this.

[tyrantsyn]

lol all these mnk, pup and war crybabies on here...its poetic justice most of you guys was teasing us drks when we expressed are complaints when SE nerfed us into oblivion calling us emo...this is what you get, you guys told us drk is fine and too stop crying now I'm saying war, mnk and pup is fine STOP Crying!!!!

Your coming off as some one who just came threw the door at a party and only has half an idea of whats been going on. Instead of trolling, why don't you add something constructive. Instead of lower yourself to troll level. Is nerfing UF/VS/BR going to help DRK be a better DD, no. Support improvement's, not nerf's.

[Amador]

Your coming off as some one who just came threw the door at a party and only has half an idea of whats been going on. Instead of trolling, why don't you add something constructive. Instead of lower yourself to troll level. Is nerfing UF/VS/BR going to help DRK be a better DD, no. Support improvement's, not nerf's.


Uh how am I trolling by stating the first adjustment was fair and adequate?

You want to ride a band wagon train on something over powered. Go for it, don't sit there and try to defend something they're adjusting over and over.

This new adjustment isn't because they feel it's "Fair" if they felt it was "Fair" they'd of given you Critical Attack Bonus III along with it. Guess what? They feel it's too much, so no Critical Attack Bonus III.

You want to preach about how they should just beef all other jobs. So what if they do? What other job has a WS that can achieve a Critical Hit Rate of 100% outside of Abyssea?

Yeah right, thought so.

The balancing numbers the first time around were a good change. V. Smite got the short end of the stick. Ukko's is left with a negligible drop in performance at this rate.

Now we're moving this to belittling DRK? DRK is a good job that can put out decent numbers in VW, and has a lot of utility. Bashing it against a job that has 100% Critical Hit Rate WS is a pointless so-called trump over it.

[Sparthos]

lol all these mnk, pup and war crybabies on here...its poetic justice most of you guys was teasing us drks when we expressed are complaints when SE nerfed us into oblivion calling us emo...this is what you get, you guys told us drk is fine and too stop crying now I'm saying war, mnk and pup is fine STOP Crying!!!!

FFXI: Kindergarten is two rooms down.

[Damane]

As a result of trends on the test server as well as development and QA testing, we will be re-adjusting the critical hit rate from TP.
In exchange for slightly raising the critical hit rate with the re-adjustment, of the two adjustments that were planned to take place along with this to enhance the effects of Double Attack and Critical Hit Bonus, we will now only be adjusting Double Attack.
.

So in other words because of some Ukkon-Dickheads that couldnt deal with the nerf, my Bravura has to suffer because you dont add the next tier of crit hit dmg+. Great... Can we go back to nerfing ukyo's fury pls in this case

[Neisan_Quetz]

How does bravura suffer when it has M torment and Upheaval? Difference between crit 2 and 3 is fairly minimal. Not getting Crit Attack III would hurt Ukon more since they stick to a crit WS...

[Amador]

How is more critical hit damage minimal? It's still a beef to those jobs who didn't have it. It's still affects when Bravura deals a critical hit and procs ODD.

It's not something that affects Ukko's Fury only. Critical Hits, Mighty Strikes. It's all incorporated, you don't just gain those things because you equip Ukonvasara.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Outside of MS not getting crit attack III is something like a ~1-3% loss in overall damage, hence I said it was fairly minimal.

[tyrantsyn]

@ Amador sorry, something got goof up in that post. My bad. I corrected it.

[Cljader1]

Funniest part about this is that you're still under us, even after the nerf :)

No need to be salty bro

Ok so you shouldn't be crying about the nerf then

[Damane]

Outside of MS not getting crit attack III is something like a ~1-3% loss in overall damage, hence I said it was fairly minimal.

its still a loss neverthless because of some people that think ukyo's fury wouldnt be strong enough with the nerf they intended to do 1.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're just complaining to complain now if you think not getting crit Attack III is going to suddenly cause War to not be one of the top if not still top DD with or without it.

[Cream_Soda]

Ok so you shouldn't be crying about the nerf then
Envy, gotta love it

[Damane]

You're just complaining to complain now if you think not getting crit Attack III is going to suddenly cause War to not be one of the top if not still top DD with or without it.

no thats not the case, you dont see the point. Why should my 4 year old Bravura suffer a futur potential loss (aka not getting the trait they intended to implement) because of some pricks that are unhappy with ukyo's fury nerf? The fact that I did stick with my Bravura should tell you allready that I am very confident on my WAR even without ukyo's fury.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Then you're complaining about nothing because you don't get 1-3% at worst overall damage increase. If you consider that a 'nerf' I really don't know what to say.

[Damane]

Then you're complaining about nothing because you don't get 1-3% at worst overall damage increase. If you consider that a 'nerf' I really don't know what to say.

seriously its a slap in the face to every warrior that did stick with her/his Bravura and every non ukoys fury war. It shouldnt be tolerated and is just biased.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Doing 1% less damage from not getting a trait SE pulled anyway is a 'slap in the face'? Do you listen to yourself?

[Cljader1]

SE has shown that they prefer nerfs over actually fixing other jobs, although I dont agree with this, its how they are handling things. Even though UF and VS needed to be nerfed that deosn't solve all the balance issues in the game. SE cant just nerf and take the side exit off stage you still have to sit at your work stations and devise a solution to fix the jobs that need fixing. With all that being said, war and mnk should be happy that there UF & VS and still a viable critical ws, all SE did was take a little off the top.

[Vold]

It's good to know that SE will only take Empyrean weapons into consideration now for future JT additions or lack there of.

[Dart]

no thats not the case, you dont see the point. Why should my 4 year old Bravura suffer a futur potential loss (aka not getting the trait they intended to implement) because of some pricks that are unhappy with ukyo's fury nerf? The fact that I did stick with my Bravura should tell you allready that I am very confident on my WAR even without ukyo's fury.

the correct answer is to make a ukon. But instead of that you'll just bitch and be emo.

[FrankReynolds]

And those people don't see why that's an enormous undertaking as well as how it would be the incorrect decision on SE's part.

Do you own stock in SE? Why do you want them to program things in the cheapest fastest way, instead of the right way? Are they offering some sort of discount for players that support bad programming?

[Prothscar]

Except it isn't bad programming if you have half a brain. Ukko's Fury needed to be adjusted, the job itself could have remained at its projected ability however. Raging Rush/Upheaval aren't the issue.

[FrankReynolds]

Except it isn't bad programming if you have half a brain. Ukko's Fury needed to be adjusted, the job itself could have remained at its projected ability however. Raging Rush/Upheaval aren't the issue.

It is actually bad programming. They could have just removed the stupid 300tp items, and Worked on boosting the strength and abilities of other jobs.

[Prothscar]

If you can look at Ukko's Fury and say that a 30% crit rate at 100TP when all other crit weaponskills are 15% at maximum isn't stupid then I don't know what to tell you. There's no reason to have a 30% crit rate at 100TP on any weaponskill. 15% is a fine amount.

Not only 100TP either really, its crit rate grew so rapidly that small TP amounts were worth a lot more than on most weaponskills, regardless what TP modified. 80% at 300TP was only part of the issue.

[FrankReynolds]

If you can look at Ukko's Fury and say that a 30% crit rate at 100TP when all other crit weaponskills are 15% at maximum isn't stupid then I don't know what to tell you.

That other jobs need other stuff, and that this is the least of the problems in the game atm? that nerfing a ws isn't going to make anything better for anyone?

[Prothscar]

It could be that you simply don't know what reducing Ukko's Fury's crit rate to 15/20% has, or it could be that you don't know how to function when losing that moderately low amount of damage off of your weaponskill that makes it far easier to balance other jobs which in turn keeping the game from being easier than it already is. Either way, I suggest doing some research. It isn't nearly as bad as you seem to think.

While I have little evidence to work off of saying that they'll be buffing other jobs subtly over time, the DRG adjustments are a sound enough indication that it could happen. Slightly increasing the strength of other jobs to come closer to the new WAR will have us where we were or slightly better off than we were when WAR had/has the stupid high crit rate on Ukko's. You don't appear to realize that there are other jobs in FFXI aside from WAR, a couple of which are usually included in a VW alliance. When those jobs increase slightly in power to make up for the slight loss in Ukko's Fury damage, no negative difference will be seen and it's quite likely that positive ramifications will be seen instead.

[FrankReynolds]

It could be that you simply don't know what reducing Ukko's Fury's crit rate to 15/20% has, or it could be that you don't know how to function when losing that moderately low amount of damage off of your weaponskill that makes it far easier to balance other jobs which in turn keeping the game from being easier than it already is. Either way, I suggest doing some research. It isn't nearly as bad as you seem to think.

I'm well aware of what it does. It hasn't made content any easier or harder to beat. It hasn't added any new capabilities or damage to other jobs. in effect: it pissed off a bunch of wars and monks. That's all it did. what part of the game is it exactly that you think is becoming more difficult with this?

[Prothscar]

Monks have a reason to be pissed, Warriors however do not. They have a reason to be slightly agitated because they're losing an average of 300 damage off of their weaponskills, but the bloody murder I've been seeing thrown around constantly since the idea of the nerf first came up is not an adequate response.

What this did was leveled the playing field just enough to make it so they can elevate other DD jobs (yes, those exist) to come closer to WAR without disrupting game balance by having every single DD in the alliance capable of putting out averages of 3~3.5k spikes of 4~6k.

3 minute VW fights are adequate. You don't need them to be 1.5 minutes, I promise.

[FrankReynolds]

Monks have a reason to be pissed, Warriors however do not. They have a reason to be slightly agitated because they're losing an average of 300 damage off of their weaponskills, but the bloody murder I've been seeing thrown around constantly since the idea of the nerf first came up is not an adequate response.

The bloody murder in my case is about the fact that A) it doesn't help anyone, B) Its messed up to people on those jobs and C) it means that they don't plan to create content that is strong enough for other jobs to get the boosts they need.

It essentially means that any future job adjustments will either be insignificant, or they will be more nerfs to other jobs.

So basically they nerfed war, and monk, but they are still the best. Therefore if I intend to win in 1.5 minutes still, I'll need to cut some of those other jobs, and bring more wars and monks.

[Prothscar]

A) It does, you're just either too closed minded to realize it or are choosing not to.
B) Oh no, you mean the guys that swing once to unleash a 3k average WS (abouts) will only do 2.7k on average now? Boo hoo. MNK and non-emp WARs got wronged, not Ukko WAR.
C) They already have.

Future job adjustments will be what they will be, however I doubt they'll be insignificant enough not to matter or nerfs.

[FrankReynolds]

A) It does, you're just either too closed minded to realize it or are choosing not to.
B) Oh no, you mean the guys that swing once to unleash a 3k average WS (abouts) will only do 2.7k on average now? Boo hoo. MNK and non-emp WARs got wronged, not Ukko WAR.
C) They already have.

Future job adjustments will be what they will be, however I doubt they'll be insignificant enough not to matter or nerfs.

A) please explain who is benefiting from this.
B) It's always fine for bad things to happen to the other guy huh?
C) orly? WHat?

[Prothscar]

A) Anyone who isn't Ukko WAR or Verethragna MNK/PUP, the latter of which shouldn't have had anything done to them. Non-Ukko WARs also got fleeced. I shouldn't have to repeat myself four times, but if you insist on playing the fool...
B) You're absolutely ignorant. I have no idea how anyone can defend that weaponskill being as over the top as it is with a straight face.
C) You must not have fought T6 Jeuno NMs yet, where WAR's lead over other melees is quite apparent. While it can be done with other melee jobs, it's not quite as effective.

[FrankReynolds]

A) Anyone who isn't Ukko WAR or Verethragna MNK/PUP, the latter of which shouldn't have had anything done to them. Non-Ukko WARs also got fleeced. I shouldn't have to repeat myself four times, but if you insist on playing the fool...
B) You're absolutely ignorant. I have no idea how anyone can defend that weaponskill being as over the top as it is with a straight face.
C) You must not have fought T6 Jeuno NMs yet, where WAR's lead over other melees is quite apparent. While it can be done with other melee jobs, it's not quite as effective.

A) So do you actually think that pups are getting more invites now? Did every ls suddenly replace wars with more thiefs and bsts? you really shouldn't repeat your self at all if your just going to make uninformed generalizations.

B) Your absolutely ignorant. Your angry at a number. You looked at a crit rate, it didn't fit into your preconceived notion of what a ws should have, and you freaked out.

C) So make other melee stronger? Give them some other uses while they're at it? Or are you just saying t6 is too easy?

[Prothscar]

A) If anyone is uninformed, it's you. I would advise you to carefully reread my stance on this matter and why other jobs will benefit from this in the long run. Killspeed on NMs will barely change if at all, but with this route we won't be seeing instant wins which, I don't know about you, don't sound very fun to me, and jobs will be on a reasonably even keel. Who likes sitting there watching WAR McZerg obliterate them no matter what they do to their equipment, subjob selection, weaponskill selection, etc.?

B) No, you clearly have no idea what game balance is. People like to bash SE for using the term "balance" so often, but in some cases it's quite accurate. At this point, anything short of where they seem to be heading now would require an absolute massive amount of restructuring on several game mechanics. If you can't handle most empyrean weaponskills having 15% crit rate, then you're honestly very vain. With appropriate gear and Champion's Drink, Blue Mage (as an example, Ninja works as well) has a 76% critical hit rate at 100TP with a 15% base crit rate. Is 76% not big enough for you? The way your kind argues, they should just make weaponskills autocrit and have them all just have scaling fTPs.

C) You're not reading very carefully. It's okay, it's a common problem in today's world. Go back and try again.

[FrankReynolds]

A) If anyone is uninformed, it's you. I would advise you to carefully reread my stance on this matter and why other jobs will benefit from this in the long run. Killspeed on NMs will barely change if at all, but with this route we won't be seeing instant wins which, I don't know about you, don't sound very fun to me, and jobs will be on a reasonably even keel. Who likes sitting there watching WAR McZerg obliterate them no matter what they do to their equipment, subjob selection, weaponskill selection, etc.?

So yes then? BSTs, PUPS, DNC, Will now be popular because of this?



B) No, you clearly have no idea what game balance is. People like to bash SE for using the term "balance" so often, but in some cases it's quite accurate. At this point, anything short of where they seem to be heading now would require an absolute massive amount of restructuring on several game mechanics. If you can't handle most empyrean weaponskills having 15% crit rate, then you're honestly very vain. With appropriate gear and Champion's Drink, Blue Mage (as an example, Ninja works as well) has a 76% critical hit rate at 100TP with a 15% base crit rate. Is 76% not big enough for you? The way your kind argues, they should just make weaponskills autocrit and have them all just have scaling fTPs.

So nerf blu and nin yeah? I don't give a crap what modifiers are on a weapon skill. The fact is that they programmed a ws that way, waited until thousands of people went out and got it, and then nerfed it for no reason. It didn't fix enfeebling magic, or the lack of a role for most other hybrid jobs, and it certainly didn't make other DD jobs more desireable, therefore it was a waste of time..


) You're not reading very carefully. It's okay, it's a common problem in today's world. Go back and try again.

I can read. It appears that you can't answer the question.

[Prothscar]

So yes then? BSTs, PUPS, DNC, Will now be popular because of this?


Not yet, but if you'd understood what I've been saying the whole time you'd know that.




So nerf blu and nin yeah? I don't give a crap what modifiers are on a weapon skill. The fact is that they programmed a ws that way, waited until thousands of people went out and got it, and then nerfed it for no reason. It didn't fix enfeebling magic, or the lack of a role for most other hybrid jobs, and it certainly didn't make other DD jobs more desireable, therefore it was a waste of time..


No, because 15% is an adequate number. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the proposed nerf to Ukko's Fury was below 15%, and I am rather perplexed as to why Victory Smite has been reduced to 10% as it was unnecessary. Your problem is exactly thus, you don't care, but you should. Thousands of people got their weapon, and it's the best weapon in the game. That will not change when you lose a maximum of ten percent damage on your weaponskill. Most of you, for lack of a better term, meatheads seem to have a problem understanding this. How about the guy who made a Redemption or Rhongomiant? How do you justify their waste of time when they were useless to begin with? Ukonvasara is losing relatively nothing, and it opens up a platform for other jobs to gain without making every single fight in the game an absolute bore. Get over it.




I can read. It appears that you can't answer the question.

Apparently you can not, or cannot comprehend the simple concept I've put forth thus far, because I've already answered the question. I'm the first to admit that I've misread posts before and interpreted them incorrectly, but come now, this isn't hard.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Do you own stock in SE? Why do you want them to program things in the cheapest fastest way, instead of the right way? Are they offering some sort of discount for players that support bad programming?OMFG! FFXI has become vista! >.<

[Damane]

the correct answer is to make a ukon. But instead of that you'll just bitch and be emo.

Sorry, but its really not fair. Why should every other war get shafted because of 1 WS, that IF NERFED is still very good. I love my bravura, there is a reason I spend back then (4 yearsago) 1 year to complete it. Did you hear me bitch back then how easy empys are to do and that they overshadow Relics?

But this is just enough, withholding planned job traits, because of one WS is just silly. In this case i rather would have Ukonvarsa Wars being hit by the full nerf.

Would you as an Ukonvarsa War be happy to not get a Job trait, just because Bravura is too strong? I really doubt so.

[newmonkey]

Sorry, but its really not fair. Why should every other war get shafted because of 1 WS, that IF NERFED is still very good. I love my bravura, there is a reason I spend back then (4 yearsago) 1 year to complete it. Did you hear me bitch back then how easy empys are to do and that they overshadow Relics?

But this is just enough, withholding planned job traits, because of one WS is just silly. In this case i rather would have Ukonvarsa Wars being hit by the full nerf.

Would you as an Ukonvarsa War be happy to not get a Job trait, just because Bravura is too strong? I really doubt so.

Of course they wouldn't i mean just look how much they cried at the inital nerf, it's enough to make you sick. As long as there precious ukon is not getting nerfed screw the relic i mean look how they reacted when empyreans first came out most of the community basically laughed at all the relic holders.

[Dart]

Sorry, but its really not fair. Why should every other war get shafted because of 1 WS, that IF NERFED is still very good. I love my bravura, there is a reason I spend back then (4 yearsago) 1 year to complete it. Did you hear me bitch back then how easy empys are to do and that they overshadow Relics?

But this is just enough, withholding planned job traits, because of one WS is just silly. In this case i rather would have Ukonvarsa Wars being hit by the full nerf.

Would you as an Ukonvarsa War be happy to not get a Job trait, just because Bravura is too strong? I really doubt so.

I have 2 relics, both pretty much useless now. I'm not bitching i'm moving on, silently hoping that they become relevant again, but jesus people move on.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Sorry, but its really not fair. Why should every other war get shafted because of 1 WS, that IF NERFED is still very good. I love my bravura, there is a reason I spend back then (4 yearsago) 1 year to complete it. Did you hear me bitch back then how easy empys are to do and that they overshadow Relics?

But this is just enough, withholding planned job traits, because of one WS is just silly. In this case i rather would have Ukonvarsa Wars being hit by the full nerf.

Would you as an Ukonvarsa War be happy to not get a Job trait, just because Bravura is too strong? I really doubt so.

You're seriously qqing over doing 1% less damage on the best damage dealer on the game. You're just making yourself look bad right now.

[FrankReynolds]

Not yet, but if you'd understood what I've been saying the whole time you'd know that.



So the point was just to make them feel better?


No, because 15% is an adequate number. I'm sorry, I didn't realize that the proposed nerf to Ukko's Fury was below 15%, and I am rather perplexed as to why Victory Smite has been reduced to 10% as it was unnecessary. Your problem is exactly thus, you don't care, but you should. Thousands of people got their weapon, and it's the best weapon in the game. That will not change when you lose a maximum of ten percent damage on your weaponskill. Most of you, for lack of a better term, meatheads seem to have a problem understanding this. How about the guy who made a Redemption or Rhongomiant? How do you justify their waste of time when they were useless to begin with? Ukonvasara is losing relatively nothing, and it opens up a platform for other jobs to gain without making every single fight in the game an absolute bore. Get over it.


So mess up one persons hard work in order to validate another persons work? great. BRB going out to egg my neigbors house in order to increase the value of mine. Its perfectly fine though because their house will still be worth a lot afterwards.


Apparently you can not, or cannot comprehend the simple concept I've put forth thus far, because I've already answered the question. I'm the first to admit that I've misread posts before and interpreted them incorrectly, but come now, this isn't hard.

5th post now, woulda been easier to just answer the question. You clearly can't.

[Cljader1]

Sorry, but its really not fair. Why should every other war get shafted because of 1 WS, that IF NERFED is still very good. I love my bravura, there is a reason I spend back then (4 yearsago) 1 year to complete it. Did you hear me bitch back then how easy empys are to do and that they overshadow Relics?

But this is just enough, withholding planned job traits, because of one WS is just silly. In this case i rather would have Ukonvarsa Wars being hit by the full nerf.

Would you as an Ukonvarsa War be happy to not get a Job trait, just because Bravura is too strong? I really doubt so.

Welcome to Dark Knight's world and what the kraken club did to our JAs and 2hr. SE have steadily nerfed drk's because of the kraken club zerg on AV. Dark knights have received haste cap nerf, souleater nerf, absorb-tp nerf, dark magic skill formula nerf. War is going the same way, SE fear Ukon War's like the use too the kraken club drk, and what they like to do in this cases is nerf a job severely...however war so far has only recieved a slight nerf compared to drks and other jobs

[Anewie]

Of course they wouldn't i mean just look how much they cried at the inital nerf, it's enough to make you sick. As long as there precious ukon is not getting nerfed screw the relic i mean look how they reacted when empyreans first came out most of the community basically laughed at all the relic holders.

this so much.

i had to sig it honestly.

[Prothscar]

So the point was just to make them feel better?

Point is to give everyone a more equal playing field.




So mess up one persons hard work in order to validate another persons work? great. BRB going out to egg my neigbors house in order to increase the value of mine. Its perfectly fine though because their house will still be worth a lot afterwards.

Seriously? You don't understand by now that it isn't coming close to messing up the weapon? Are you trolling? You must be, no one is this bad at reading comprehension, not even me. The nerf to Ukko's Fury isn't coming close to ruining Ukonvasara, and it surely isn't devaluing the 4-5 days it takes to build one.




5th post now, woulda been easier to just answer the question. You clearly can't.

6th post now, I'm growing tired of your beating around the bush. Either acknowledge that I've already answered your question and that you can't read, or stop wasting my god damn time.

[Greatguardian]

this so much.

i had to sig it honestly.

Reading comprehension is nice. I've always been on the side that b'awwing about the nerfs was retarded because it didn't actually change the job hierarchy. You just assumed a lot of things because I have a Vereth.

Though, the people talking about how wonderful this is for other jobs are equally retarded as they don't seem to realize that WAR still handily outclasses whatever throw-away DD they're trying to champion. The only difference is WAR now outclasses PUP by a mile instead of a mile and a half. For any group that cares about absolute efficiency, nothing has changed in the slightest.

[Prothscar]

Though, the people talking about how wonderful this is for other jobs are equally retarded as they don't seem to realize that WAR still handily outclasses whatever throw-away DD they're trying to champion. The only difference is WAR now outclasses PUP by a mile instead of a mile and a half. For any group that cares about absolute efficiency, nothing has changed in the slightest.

That's not the point I'm trying to get across however. My belief is in that this is part one of a multistep process of job adjustments and balance, kind of like they said they were going to do when the cap reached its maximum, which it now has.

[Greatguardian]

That's not the point I'm trying to get across however. My belief is in that this is part one of a multistep process of job adjustments and balance, kind of like they said they were going to do when the cap reached its maximum, which it now has.

Wasn't referring to you in particular. Moreso Atomic_Skull who's been waving around simpsons memes in every thread he can find since this was announced.

Even if it is part 1 of a process, though, will Blue Mage ever get to be as strong as Warrior? Probably not. In that case, what changes? For the people who care enough to only bring Ukons, they will still only bring Ukons. For people who don't mind bringing an Almace, they'll still not mind bringing an Almace. Status Quo is maintained unless the actual hierarchy is changed in a meaningful way.

[svengalis]

You guys got what you want at the cost of not getting a new JA. Do you think it was worth it?

[Cream_Soda]

You guys got what you want at the cost of not getting a new JA. Do you think it was worth it?
What thread you been reading

[Prothscar]

Wasn't referring to you in particular. Moreso Atomic_Skull who's been waving around simpsons memes in every thread he can find since this was announced.

Even if it is part 1 of a process, though, will Blue Mage ever get to be as strong as Warrior? Probably not. In that case, what changes? For the people who care enough to only bring Ukons, they will still only bring Ukons. For people who don't mind bringing an Almace, they'll still not mind bringing an Almace. Status Quo is maintained unless the actual hierarchy is changed in a meaningful way.

Blue Mage doesn't have to be as strong as Warrior, it's fine where it is. DRG, DRK, etc., however, deserve a bit more, mostly DRG as DRK can somewhat hold its own as it is, though both need a bit of revision.

[Anewie]

Wasn't referring to you in particular. Moreso Atomic_Skull who's been waving around simpsons memes in every thread he can find since this was announced.

Even if it is part 1 of a process, though, will Blue Mage ever get to be as strong as Warrior? Probably not. In that case, what changes? For the people who care enough to only bring Ukons, they will still only bring Ukons. For people who don't mind bringing an Almace, they'll still not mind bringing an Almace. Status Quo is maintained unless the actual hierarchy is changed in a meaningful way.

only person meming is you. This just in, everyone memes amirite. Try to come up with new insults next time GG. You're trying way too hard.

[Kimble]

How the fuck is he meming? Lol I doubt you even know what that means.

[Insaniac]

Blue Mage doesn't have to be as strong as Warrior, it's fine where it is. DRG, DRK, etc., however, deserve a bit more, mostly DRG as DRK can somewhat hold its own as it is, though both need a bit of revision.
My DRG does quite well actually. I'm not winning parses against Ukons but I hold my own and have other tricks that WARs and DRKs don't. I wouldn't turn away any buffs but I have never complained about DRGs place in the game. Jobs shouldn't be balanced by giving them all similar damage outputs. I would much rather have some new abilities that let me do awesome things with my wyvern to balance me out with the raw power of a WAR. If any job is broken it's SAM because it has huge damage potential and the best arsenal of JAs and traits in the game. Luckily a good portion of those are subbable. Take away any 2h DDs /sam and SAM would leave them in the dust.

[Ilax]

Oh no! So instead of doing 6k Ukko's Fury to Qilin they'll do 3k!

Are you smoking crack? because only in your dream "AVERAGE" WAR spam 6k. (Sadly i don't even know any one of those to start with)


While I think SE went a little crazy with the Ukko's Fury nerf I do think WAR needed it. I only say this because WAR has access to some really nice +crit dmg gear and really high double attack. So, once you add in both those traits on top of the aftermath WAR's dmg out put seems a little out of hand...

You mean because war have nothing compare to SAM, but have 1 advantage (Crit DMG WS) we need to nerf it, i see.


I think the problem with bringing the rest of the weapons up would have been empyrean becoming the new baseline for DD jobs.

Of course it is, that the whole difference between having a unreachable RELIC/MYTHIC back in the time, and a reachable Empy weapon, by making stuff more easy, you establish a new STANDARD, and DEV have to create new MONSTER that go with that new standard, making the game even more sad for who have no relic, mythic, empy.


Paladin is still teetering on the verge of uselessness, Corsair desperately needed the buff, and we all know SE rides Samurai schlong.

Back in 2002~2008, the hate mechanic was working perfect as no one was doing 3~6k WS, it was nice if you could WS for 1k dmg on NM, in general you were able to only do 200~600 dmg, and NM had low HP 20~50k max.

Now is totaly different story, NM have like 150k+ HP, Mele do 3~6k DMG, mele can CAP hate in 2 WS only, making the "Hate holding" impossible, and the only real USE of PLD nowday, is to have someone that will survive nasty move -> Thundaga IV, so when all mele hit the ground, your PLD is still there, but wait a min? That will just happen if he have Aegis, again a new standard that DEV tossed in the game.

So ya, PLD is useful, by time he have ochain + aegis and almace, or just forget the job. [SAD yes, tell that to DEV not to me] But you right, "General/Basic" PLD are useless now.


Someone implying that WAR, one of the two easiest jobs to play that even a drunken space monkey could achieve success at, takes skill? Lol'd.

Are you implying that BST tossing a pet and eat popcorn is harder to play? or the annoyance of THF trying SA and TA a NM that keep moving? Or maybe you talking about DRG that Do DMG and hide in sky to save his weakness from ANY kind of dmg (NM fart, drg fall to the ground..)

Maybe you talking about how HARD is to play SAM hiting 2~3 JA to WS 10 time and Self skillchain, hmmm or how hard is to hit souleater and yell to WHM "SAVE ME! i am an EMO skilled DRK!"

And don't tell me you need skill to play Ranger spamming 1 Macro for RA and 1 macro for WS.

In FACT, you could apply your "drunken space monkey" to any DD job.


WAR and MNK are the 2 main Damage-Dealing jobs in the game, how can you even believe that nerfing the only 2 good weapon/weapon skills that is a pain in the back side to achieve, will bring balance?

If that was even true, maybe in abyssea ya.. SAM still have they place, so do most of all other DD job, in fact MNK and WAR been left out in Aht Urhgan and in many other expansion, i can still remember how useless my mnk was before VS, or war before Ukkon, if by balance SE mean get back those 2 job collecting the dust, well i guess that work too and ill go play back SAM onry as it was before.

===============

anyway i stop reading after page #16... In my opinion, SE is doing a mistake, and is not like i care since i can play SAM again or w/e come back DD #1.

Part that annoying me is this:

-I got able to spam Upheaval up to 8.5k with 2h.
-Ukon + 2h have almost no effect [normal as the Crit rate on WS is already super high]

I do use both WS, Ukon >> Upheaval without 2h, and Upheaval >> Ukon when 2h, What i am worry is how Upheaval might turn WS #1 Full time after the nerf, as the crit will fail more, and i don't call that "BALANCE" when you turn a Empy useless, even if that amuse everyone on official forum.

But DEV never listen, so i am ready to use Upheaval and have my Ukonvasara collect dusk, is not like i even care, i just find this stupid. Just to make this look even more interesting, my Telamon will look 10x greater then shitty Ukon after this update.

LV90 Ukonvasara: 131 DMG STR+15
[B]LV99 Telamon: 133 DMG VIT +11 Phys. dmg. Taken -13%

because in this thread, people will do the 1,500 plate (150m) to get insulted with nerfed Ukon. (Ok ya, keep trolling hard)

[Alhanelem]

@ hate mechanics part: SE has said they don't plan to raise the hate cap from its level 75 state- essentially saying they essentially want all players except for one to hold back to avoid generating maximum hate (which many jobs now have to do)

Honestly, there shouldn't even be a hate cap at all. It should be up to whoever is able to generate the most hate to tank, pure and simple.

[Alerith]

So in all of this talk about balance, where's the nerf to SAM and the buff to PLD?