Re: [dev1064] Job Adjustments: Weapon Skills

[Rubicant82]

The only thing I have to say about this to SE is thanks for !@#$ing up the hard work that so many player around the world put in to these weapons. And on top of that Thanks to SE for letting someone who ruined their name try to redeem themselves by managing a old game with a solid fan base which he has successfully started to kill off one class of players at a time.

So sense your are destroying the melee weaponskills is there any chance you (SE) are going to "fix" the mage classes because if you do... then I mine as well stop now and move on :)

[Rofues]

not gonna happen

[Manicora]

Dear SE:
Take a Gun, Put it in your mouth, and Let me pull the trigger for you. You sick Fuks, I hate this May as well lower the damn Level cap and Make us level 50 again, Why do people with power seem to have the crappiest Ideas. Crit hits = higher damage, You want us to hit for less, and Take ten times more damage???? I think you need to be beat within an Inch of your lives Stupid Monkeys!

Yours Truly
Brotherhood

[Ihnako]

None of you tested it right now but you rant on it.
Sorry but why don't just shut up and play a different job, if the announcement that the developer is about to change something from job X. You should be more upset about the allready overpowered SAMs who got pampered their ass again.

[Rofues]

playing all 20 jobs and hate whenever they di stuff to any job... and sam being overpowered.. we have this issue since start and nothing happens, but making other jobs weaker... that's the way to go!

[hiko]

playing all 20 jobs and hate whenever they di stuff to any job... and sam being overpowered.. we have this issue since start Aug.2007 (http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20070828oz52G1/detail.html) and nothing happens, but making other jobs weaker... that's the way to go!
sam was weak before

[Ihnako]

When? As long as I remember SAM was a good DD.
And with every patch for SAM the job became more and more derailed.
Today - SAM has 2 mini 2h, a TP gain far beyond everything so he only needs 3-4 swings per WS. And with the new WS, even a gimp SAM can outperform anyone.

[saevel]

When? As long as I remember SAM was a good DD.
And with every patch for SAM the job became more and more derailed.
Today - SAM has 2 mini 2h, a TP gain far beyond everything so he only needs 3-4 swings per WS. And with the new WS, even a gimp SAM can outperform anyone.

Um No.

People really need to stop hating on things they don't understand.

Shoha is just an upgraded Gekko and thus shared all the great things about Gekko, and also shares the negatives to Gekko. Having an attack bonus means you don't need to worry much about attack, having a high STR mod means you just pile on STR gear and then more STR gear. Being a one hit (or 1+1 for Shoha) means acc isn't an issue due to the acc bonus on first hit of all WS. Combine these together makes a WS that is ridiculously easy to gear for. But this WS has a very low fTP mod.


1.375 at 100%
2.15 at 200%
2.65 at 300%

Then add 1.0 for the additional hit. Due to the large jump from 100 -> 200 TP it means you need a TP Bonus GKT to see the most out of it, just like Gekko. And to top it all off, it means buffs do nearly nothing for you. Additional attack and crit won't enhance your damage, but they will enhance WAR / DRG / MNK and to some extent DRK's damage. So while an unbuffed SAM with Shoha will beat an unbuffed WAR / MNK / DRG / DRK, the moment you start throwing buffs into the mix that SAM hits a glass ceiling that they can't go beyond. It got so bad that at 75 super SAM's started using Penta as their WS of choice (even on non-colibri) due to it scaling with buffs better then Gekko.

[Cream_Soda]

Ass backwards way of thinking.

If my victory smite was pretty much always capped in attack, I'd be happy as fk, as well as any other job w/ any other ws.

Basically
Person X: needs buffs, temps, etc. cap their damage
Person Y: Does not need such things to cap their damage

Person Y is not the one w/ the "negatives"

Now, if their attack cap was lower than other jobs, that'd be one thing, but being able to reach that cap more easily and with less items/buffs is a good thing, not a bad one.

Then you have things like Hasso

Hasso: 10% haste, takes 0 gear slots
Black Belt: 12% haste, takes 1 gear slot.

I'd trade being able to equip a black belt for hasso any day, but now I'm working my way off topic.

[saevel]

Ass backwards way of thinking.

If my victory smite was pretty much always capped in attack, I'd be happy as fk, as well as any other job w/ any other ws.

Basically
Person X: needs buffs, temps, etc. cap their damage
Person Y: Does not need such things to cap their damage

Person Y is not the one w/ the "negatives"

Now, if their attack cap was lower than other jobs, that'd be one thing, but being able to reach that cap more easily and with less items/buffs is a good thing, not a bad one.

Then you have things like Hasso

Hasso: 10% haste, takes 0 gear slots
Black Belt: 12% haste, takes 1 gear slot.

I'd trade being able to equip a black belt for hasso any day, but now I'm working my way off topic.

If your VS had capped attack you would be blowing everything else in the game out of the water, including Shoha.

It may have capped attack, but the fTP is low. The whole point of that is that with appropriate buffs, other jobs will surpass the Shoha SAM as the SAM gets nothing from those buffs. Basically SAM is a poor mans DD, capable of high damage at a low cost, but quickly reach's the cap on it's potential while other jobs can go even higher.

Now stop hating.

[Cream_Soda]

For those situations, you have Stardiver, which is even better than Shoha w/ a high enough C-ratio and not to forget the instant boost of Overwhelm you get from the beginning

[saevel]

For those situations, you have Stardiver, which is even better than Shoha w/ a high enough C-ratio and not to forget the instant boost of Overwhelm you get from the beginning

And DRG's have drakesbane which is superior to Stardiver. Heck SD is just another version of penta.

SAM's don't have high attack nor powerful JT / JAs. Their entire focus is getting TP at an insane rate and spamming WS or making SC's. They were only *powerful* back at 75 because any idiot could buy a hagun and get decent performance without BRD's and COR's buffing them to high hell. We don't exactly fight those monsters anymore, there isn't any super big HNM fight where you would throw tons of melee's at it to kill. Now we have VWNM which is all about hitting procs not spamming a single powerful WS to kill it ASAP. In this regard AH WAR's with all their WS's unlocked are more valuable then a Shoha SAM.

[Cream_Soda]

Yea, tell that to my friend who was spamming 6k Stardivers on exp mobs and 4-5k Stardivers on NMs last night.


SAM's don't have high attack nor powerful JT / JAs.
Yup, meditate
Store TP
Hasso
Seigan
Third eye
Sekkanoki
Hagakure

Are not powerful JT/ JAs, they are amongst the weakest in the entire game!

[Neisan_Quetz]

Stardiver's doesn't have Drakesbane's or Penta's attack penalties, has high Str mod and 4 hits, it can't crit but on harder mobs at 5/5 it's almost likely Drg's best WS.

[saevel]

Yea, tell that to my friend who was spamming 6k Stardivers on exp mobs and 4-5k Stardivers on NMs last night.


Yup, meditate
Store TP
Hasso
Seigan
Third eye
Sekkanoki
Hagakure

Are not powerful JT/ JAs, they are amongst the weakest in the entire game!

Of course your "XP" mobs are EP and your inside Abyssea. Same DRG can get higher Drakesbanes if they wanted.

Hasso / Seigan / Meditate are all available to everything /SAM, infact DRG, DRK and WAR are pretty much always /SAM.

Which leaves ..
Store TP III+ and the various toy abilities for SC. The SC abilities are useless with multiple people as TP spam will ruin any SC you attempt to pull off. So yeah SAM has ... Store TP and ... more Store TP.

Now stop hating.

[Cream_Soda]

I can't remember the last time I used staff on mnk.

Just in abyssea, you say? Ghaleon's Stardivers were outperforming his Shohas in VW as well.

As far as drg goes, maybe it can get more dmg from drakes than it can from stardiver, but w/ Overwhelm in play, I don't see drg outdoing sam in the ws department on polearm (as well as the fact that sam can 4hit polearm).


Though, I guess if you suck or something then the job may reflect that to you and that'd be the results difference we're seeing.

[saevel]

I can't remember the last time I used staff on mnk.

Just in abyssea, you say? Ghaleon's Stardivers were outperforming his Shohas in VW as well.

As far as drg goes, maybe it can get more dmg from drakes than it can from stardiver, but w/ Overwhelm in play, I don't see drg outdoing sam in the ws department on polearm (as well as the fact that sam can 4hit polearm).


Though, I guess if you suck or something then the job may reflect that to you and that'd be the results difference we're seeing.

You can't defend your position so now your resorting to ad hominem attacks.

SD has already been tested, your blowing smoke through people's arses and expecting us to believe it.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Stardiver

4 hit WS, 0.75 fTP on all hits at 100 TP. That equals 3.0 fTP worth of damage at an accuracy rate of 81.4% (.95^4). Including belts and gorgets your at 0.95 fTP per hit for a total of 3.8 fTP total. It can't crit and thus is limited to a ratio of 2.25, this is before LCF takes a chunk out of it.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Drakesbane

Drakesbane is four hits at 1.0 fTP each, so a total of 4.0 fTP, 4.2 with gorgets (~meh). There is an attack penalty but the WS can crit which radically raise's it's average cRatio. It's also 50% STR WSC so while it lags behind SD in WSC it more then makes it up in fTP and cRatio. SD is just Penta +1, Drakes crush's it completely, especially on a DRG/SAM spamming it at 100TP.

Now for Shoha, which should be beating SD on almost anything higher then T.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Tachi:_Shoha

1.375 at 100 TP, but no SAM should be using it without a TP bonus GKT, so really 2.15 fTP at 100TP. Add in WS gorget / belt and you get 2.45 and another 1.0 for the additional hit for a total of 3.45 fTP on two hits which will land 90% of the time. Same WSC as SD at 100% STR but with attack bonus.

Thus you get 3.8 fTP on four hits vs 3.45 fTP on two hits but with attack bonus. SD will beat Shoha but only on targets where you'd be capping attack anyway. On anything your not capping attack then Shoha wins. And in both situations Drakes should win.

The abyssea comment was about you stating 6K Shoha's, like they were doing them on upper tier VWNMs, which we all know is BS.

Now if you really want to swing male genitals around and measure then I'll see your SD and raise you one Resolution.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Resolution

0.71 fTP five hit GSWD WS at 100% STR. With gorgets it's 0.91 fTP for 4.55 total fTP at 77% of the time. It has a 8% attack penalty, but thankfully the job that will be using this has ridiculous levels of attack to begin with (DRK). I was getting 6K on Resolution at 4/5 merits, at 5/5 it's even better. Not to mention the job that would be using this also gets Soul Eater which in turn adds a couple hundred damage extra per hit.

But seriously, SAM is just so broken, people aren't even inviting WAR's and MNK's anymore ..... [/sarcasm]

[Cream_Soda]

Forgetting that you can 4hit SD on sam buddy

My point still stands on the fact that sam has some amazing JAs (since you didn't address that at all).

On sam vs drg ws, you're forgetting overwhelm again (or failed to address it in the first place)

[Motenten]

SD has already been tested, your blowing smoke through people's arses and expecting us to believe it.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Stardiver

4 hit WS, 0.75 fTP on all hits at 100 TP. That equals 3.0 fTP worth of damage at an accuracy rate of 81.4% (.95^4). Including belts and gorgets your at 0.95 fTP per hit for a total of 3.8 fTP total. It can't crit and thus is limited to a ratio of 2.25, this is before LCF takes a chunk out of it.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Drakesbane

Drakesbane is four hits at 1.0 fTP each, so a total of 4.0 fTP, 4.2 with gorgets (~meh). There is an attack penalty but the WS can crit which radically raise's it's average cRatio. It's also 50% STR WSC so while it lags behind SD in WSC it more then makes it up in fTP and cRatio. SD is just Penta +1, Drakes crush's it completely, especially on a DRG/SAM spamming it at 100TP.


You seem to be missing a few key points in the damage calculations.

Aside from the remainder of their gear, drg will have an advantage when it comes to weapons. Lvl 95 str magian polearm has 9 dmg, 10 str and 24 att over the best sam can get, the Draca Couse. Drg also has the advantage in skill, with 36 more than sam. On the surface that would seem to give a notable edge to drg.

Vs. a fodder level mob (no level correction) with low defense (favors Stardiver strongly over Shoha), it still takes a fairly substantial amount of attack to cap. The difference in att between drg and sam is about the same as what's gained by the weapon and skill (~64 total). If we allow that attack isn't quite capped (800 att won't cap vs a mob with just 378 def), raw weaponskill damage of course favors drg, 2520 to 2291. Drg has a 10% lead.

However Overwhelm is quite a substantial bonus. 19% damage, plus whatever the relic+2 augment adds (potentially another 5%, based on how other gear augments work; not including that for now). That puts the sam's final damage at 2726.

In addition, the sam will have a 4-hit build, while the drg will likely only have a 6-hit unless using a Store TP magian (and so doesn't reach 5-hit for this example, since we're using the str magian). That puts the overall DPS (leaving in jumps for drg and Hasso for both, but excluding Meditate and other sam JAs) for the sam at 257, while the drg is at 211 -- nearly 22% more damage overall. Even if the sam never gets to use Overwhelm, it's still at 226 DPS due to the better x-hit.

Oh, and Drakesbane? 1962 for this soft target compared to 2520 Stardiver, for the drg (outside Abyssea, obviously). That -20% attack hurts a lot when you can't count on the crits, and would hurt even more on mobs with level correction as a factor.


SD will beat Shoha but only on targets where you'd be capping attack anyway. On anything your not capping attack then Shoha wins.

Partly correct. You don't need to be capping attack for Stardiver to be better. Anything over roughly 1.65 cRatio (after level correction) should favor Stardiver. Obviously the higher the mob level, the more difficult that threshhold is to reach, and you won't ever get it on mobs over level 111.


And in both situations Drakes should win.

No. In fact, the types of mobs where you'd expect Drakes to be favored (high def, so crits are worth more) also more heavily penalize Drakes (greater level correction exacerbates the -def effect), such that unless you're getting a substantial crit rate boost, Stardiver should almost always win.

You go from Stardiver being 28% ahead of Drakes on fodder mobs to it being 27% ahead on high level, high def mobs, to being 21% ahead at 300 TP (unless Drakes scales crit rate vs TP faster than expected). Drakes only wins in Abyssea, or when you're significantly over-capping attack.

[saevel]

So basically, if drakes NEVER crits, then SD / Shoha wins huh.

Considering that the strongest part of that WS is it's criticals, that's kinda besides the point isn't it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Did you really just skim over the part where StarDiver beats it outside Abyssea as well, on fodder and harder mobs?

[Ophannus]

Except it really doesnt. Stardiver doing 700-1200ish in VW, Drakes still doing around 800-1500.
Compared to:
Ukko-2800-5300
VS-3400ish
Hi-1400-2400
Shoha-2800-4k
Fudo-2-4k
CDC-900-2200

These are number I saw when doing Jeuno VW T1-3 last night. I'm not really sure why Drakes is pulling ahead, I guess I need more Attack or something. This is w/e food but with Stalwarts. The damage I posted of other WS, the Ukon WAR wasn't eating Food and neither was the SAM or MNK(Buns are 130-150k/stack on my server so most ppl gimp it with just Stalwarts)

[Greatguardian]

Blade: Hi beating Drakes/SD on Voidwatch mobs?

Something is wrong somewhere. Were you using an OAT PLM or something with lower base damage / higher Ws frequency? What did the overall parse look like?

SAM beating out DRG is pretty obvious, though. The issue in question was SAM using Stardrrrrrrrriver over Shoha when you have the attack for it.

[Ophannus]

Lower base damage doesn't mean much on WS with such a high WSC or in situations where pDIF isn't capped, like on VWNMs. My Stardiver set ain't no joke either, though I could use Orgier's Pants for that WS Damage+3%.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7404/90478135.png

[Motenten]

So basically, if drakes NEVER crits, then SD / Shoha wins huh.

Considering that the strongest part of that WS is it's criticals, that's kinda besides the point isn't it.

No. Drakes matches Stardiver at (for the config I have set up) 43% crit rate. That's capped dDex crit rate plus merits plus 10% base weaponskill crit rate at 100 TP plus ~8% extra percent (gear and/or higher TP).

RR atma in Abyssea puts you at ~55% crit rate before figuring the weaponskill itself and the crit hit damage on top of that, so certainly Drakes wins there. Outside Abyssea, that's rather more difficult to achieve.

If you look purely at total fTP, Drakes is about 4.1 or 4.2 (gorget or gorget+belt) while Stardiver is about 0.95*4 = 3.8, maybe 3.88 with some extra TP. That puts Drakes 6%-10% ahead of Stardiver. On the other hand, Stardiver gets 100% str mod vs Drakes' 50%, which you can expect to yield roughly a 35% lead in total base damage. Drakes gets crits, but also gets attack penalty, and that's not an easy total effect to throw a number at, but overall it should be easily clear that Stardiver 'should' be stronger most of the time, and that you would need a pretty decent crit rate for Drakes to overtake it.


Shoha wins over Stardiver at less than 1.65 cRatio. I would expect it to similarly win over Drakes when under some cRatio value, though the exact value would depend on overall crit rate and such on Drakes. From the above, if you're at 43% crit rate than Shoha should win if cRatio is 1.65 or less, though the comparison of crit rate to attack bonus makes things a bit fuzzy.

[LeaderofAtlantis]

It would be nice if they went back through and re-imagined all the weapon skills a bit (some are fine for what they are - like Wasp Sting or Energy Drain). Maybe some animation revamps, but some need modifier rethinks... especially in the case of Relic weapon skills. I think that the Relic weapons need a rethink period, but that's not really for this thread.