[DEV1064] Tachi: Shoha

[Quetzacoatl]

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TheRealDlo/ffxi_20111216_135334.png

Yeah, uh, we need you to nerf this too, and um...we would like you to have it done before the Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerfs go live on the game servers. That'll be greeaat.

http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lumberg.jpg

[Finuve]

the worst part is how common numbers like that are with that WS

[Quetzacoatl]

the worst part is how common numbers like that are with that WS

Tell me about it. The game is going back to 2003-2006 again already.

Okay, SE, we get it: you LOVE overpowering SAM. But why? Why can't this weapon skill be nerfed already, because the ridiculously overpowered damage it does? AND, you know the potential of SAM's ability to skillchain repeatedly and do more retardedly strong damage with these weapon skills! The Attack Bonus has to be lowered to a level everyone else that doesn't have SAM leveled can compete with. We demand you to have this done as soon as possible before you lose more of your loyal and paying customers.

I'm not saying this as a DRK, but saying it to show that even THIS...

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TheRealDlo/ffxi_20111216_135334.png

Is just flat-out unfair to every other damage dealer, ESPECIALLY WAR and MNK. Hell, I kind of enjoyed competing with my fellow Ukonvasara WARs and Verethragna MNKs...SAM can do this TWICE in a row and get a skillchain on top of it. I can't compete with Shoha. It's that stupid. :|

[Flionheart]

The double standards SE employ in nearly every major patch are astounding.

[Theytak]

I wholly and completely support this.

Also, inb4 the sams who think same was underpowered and needed another tachi: gamebreaker.

[Quetzacoatl]

1. Everyone reading this needs to post screenshots of the damage from Shoha as high as the numbers posted in the original post. Minimum Damage 5K to a Maximum of 8K (if that's even possible)

2. Underneath these screenshots should say, "THIS IS NOT BALANCE!"

3. Keep doing it until we get a Developer's response

[Neofire]

I disagree, just because someone with the right gear setup ws'd for 7k ya'll want to shun it. I heard noone crying when people were doing 7-10k damage with wildfire. Good god.

[Flionheart]

Main Job: SAM lv. 90

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo187/D-Cyph3r/everything_went_better_than_expected.jpg

[Avarice]

Lower the damage of a weapon skill? Seriously? Please tell me I'm posting in a troll thread; I have to be.

[Isawa]

Lower the damage of a weapon skill? Seriously? Please tell me I'm posting in a troll thread; I have to be.

http://trolledbot.net/pix/1239.jpg

[Quetzacoatl]

I disagree, just because someone with the right gear setup ws'd for 7k ya'll want to shun it. I heard noone crying when people were doing 7-10k damage with wildfire. Good god.

Um, RNG or COR can take punches? No. They cannot. This is why Wildfire users don't get the short end of the stick. That's a fair trade-off.

SAM has a potential to tank using Shoha with Seigan and Utsusemi, and can hold it with proper healing and support. And you want to complain about a Gun WS? Get real, man.

[Finuve]

Um, RNG or COR can take punches? No. They cannot. This is why Wildfire users don't get the short end of the stick. That's a fair trade-off.

SAM has a potential to tank using Shoha with Seigan and Utsusemi, and can hold it with proper healing and support. And you want to complain about a Gun WS? Get real, man.not to mention how much more often SAM can WS than a COR or RNG

[Vold]

I disagree, just because someone with the right gear setup ws'd for 7k ya'll want to shun it. I heard noone crying when people were doing 7-10k damage with wildfire. Good god.Because they were too busy shunning Blade Hi and Ukko's Fury because nin and war are bandwagon Abyssea jobs and no one really cares about wildfire. It's a great ass kicking WS but no one really cares.

But if you're suggesting SE shouldn't worry about balance at the highest tier of gear you'd be wrong because if your ultimate goal isn't to wear the best gear then you have odd reasons for playing. Interesting content only lasts so long before the desire for better gear kicks in and takes over to keep you playing. SE should balance the game based on the very best gear a player can wear. Anything below that is meaningless. And while my sam isn't quite up to par in levels and I would no doubt enjoy using this WS, I have the same mindset with this WS that I do with others: They're overpowered.

Though that's not to say they should be nerfed to do crap damage. But, come on, how are you going to sit there and nerf merit WSs and empyrean WSs and let this one SAM GK WS off the hook? It's insultingly biased and it's going to kill every other DD job once more like SAM did back in the ToAU era. This isn't balance. It's SamuraiXI. The amount of favoritism this job has gotten is astounding. So like people didn't quite care that Tachi: Fudo basically made SAM #1 outside of buffed content like Aby/VW so what SE did was to go and design a new WS that ALL sams could attain that would walk all over everything else at anytime. I'll say it again, I'll be very very surprised if they ever bother nerfing this GK weapon skill. The only reason they will do it now is because all non sam DDs making a fuss over it because if they were going to do it themselves, they would have done so by now.

But I stress I'm a SAM fan and am in no way an anti SAM fanatic because of whatever. I am an anti SE bias fan, however. If you're going to work on balance then work on balance and not what can you do to make SAM the uncontested #1 DD job. Which would be fine, if they were open about it and not preaching balance about everything else.

[Finuve]

My sam is 4/5 AF3+1 and 1/5 AF3+2, I use an EXTREMELY easy GK to get, Kikugosaku (SP?), my WS gear is decent with Twilight n such, but I have to force 357 GK skill using justice torque

My DRK has Redemption, has pretty sick Crit hit damage, great WS gear, great TP gain gear

However, MY WSs on DRK average 2k-3k (1500-2500 outside abyss) and my SAMs Shohas average 3k-6k (Havent tested outside abyssea) and my SAM can WS faster than my DRK and self skillchain twice in the time my DRK can do one

moral of the story? buff Quietus Camlann's Torment and Cloudsplitter

as well as Entropy Requiescat Realmrazer and Ruinator

nerf Shoha so SAM can be the job the WSs the most often and skillchains to make up for WS damage, instead of Self Skillchaining, WSing the most often, and doing the most per WS damage

[Quetzacoatl]

Moogle's Law: When Square-Enix makes WAR and MNK top DDs, they nerf and laugh at them at the last moment by making SAM more overpowered with Tachi: Shoha.

[Olor]

Which would be fine, if they were open about it and not preaching balance about everything else.

Yeah when the devs are making (balance) excuses for not making changes to classes like BST which would make them USABLE in mainline content such as voidwatch - and then overpowering only 1 of the merit WS (while making sword WS essentially useless, despite the fact most sword users have crappy WS to choose from)... yeah.

[Theytak]

1. Everyone reading this needs to post screenshots of the damage from Shoha as high as the numbers posted in the original post. Minimum Damage 5K to a Maximum of 8K (if that's even possible)

2. Underneath these screenshots should say, "THIS IS NOT BALANCE!"

3. Keep doing it until we get a Developer's response

I vote we include pictures of all the new WS with similar quality gear sets on the same mobs. Requiescat and Entropy vs Tachi: Shoha, and they say they're balanced. pffft

[Finuve]

I vote we include pictures of all the new WS with similar quality gear sets on the same mobs. Requiescat and Entropy vs Tachi: Shoha, and they say they're balanced. pffft
Ill toss quietus in there as well, someone else should grab camlanns torment and cloudsplitter

[Quetzacoatl]

I vote we include pictures of all the new WS with similar quality gear sets on the same mobs. Requiescat and Entropy vs Tachi: Shoha, and they say they're balanced. pffft

Even better!

[Flionheart]

Rock needs a nerf, paper is fine.

:cool::eek::D:(:rolleyes::);):confused:

[Finuve]

:cool::eek::D:(:rolleyes::);):confused:I know you know better than thinking Wildfire and Shoha are even comparable in anyway, 7k damage every so often is nothing compared to 7k damage constantly

[Theytak]

Rock needs a nerf, paper is fine.

:cool::eek::D:(:rolleyes::);):confused:
Personally, I think lizard and spock need some love, they're so ignored these days.

[Ophannus]

Samurai Fantasy XI

[Ravenmore]

Might bring my sam back from the dead just to mess with this WS in the gimp gear I have laying around for from 75 cap.

[Quetzacoatl]

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b244/FenreyVarnFFXI/lolTanakaWasHere.png


I know you know better than thinking Wildfire and Shoha are even comparable in anyway, 7k damage every so often is nothing compared to 7k damage constantly

lol you missed the context of his rock/paper/scissors post. I think?

[Finuve]

i swear he was replying to the wildfire/shoha and not ukkos, my mistake

[Flionheart]

I know you know better than thinking Wildfire and Shoha are even comparable in anyway, 7k damage every so often is nothing compared to 7k damage constantly

I didn't mean that at all. It was more toward the SAMs who think Shoha is fine but WAR and Ukko's needed a nerf.

[VZX]

SAM can do this TWICE in a row and get a skillchain on top of it. I can't compete with Shoha. It's that stupid. :|

1. Everyone reading this needs to post screenshots of the damage from Shoha as high as the numbers posted in the original post. Minimum Damage 5K to a Maximum of 8K (if that's even possible)

1. You don't have Shoha
2. You don't understand the underlying math behind it
3. You don't have Shoha

My highest without any STR atma only gives me 5.4k damage 1-2 times in 2 hours session when finishing trial of TP bonus GKT on wivre. 5.4k damage is that is I need triple attack proc on both hits and land.
For my case, in order to get 7k damage damage is only possible with 2 STR atma, triple attack proc AND land on all hits with nearly 300 TP worth.

You are saying like this happens every single time we unleash the WS at 100% TP. No. With just cruor buff you expect Shoha only dealing 2.3k-2.4k with 2 hits landed. Outside is about 2.1k, which is actually very close to Fudo damage where attack is capped on target mob.

What next you'll complain? Someone posting non brew 10k damage last stand on piercing weak mob and you will call a nerf? Get some grip.

[Finuve]

1. You don't have Shoha
2. You don't have Shoha
3. You don't have Shoha

My highest without any STR atma only gives me 5.4k damage 1-2 times in 2 hours session when finishing trial of TP bonus GKT on wivre. 5.4k damage is that is I need triple attack proc on both hits and land.
For my case, in order to get 7k damage damage is only possible with 2 STR atma, triple attack proc AND land on all hits with nearly 300 TP worth.

You are saying like this happens every single time we unleash the WS at 100% TP. No. With just cruor buff you expect Shoha only dealing 2.3k-2.4k with 2 hits landed. Outside is about 2.1k, which is actually very close to Fudo damage where attack is capped on target mob.

What next you'll complain? Someone posting non brew 10k damage last stand on piercing weak mob and you will call a nerf? Get some grip.
I average 4k and my SAM sucks, WTF are you doing wrong

VV RR and Apoc BTW

[VZX]

I average 4k and my SAM sucks, WTF are you doing wrong

VV RR and Apoc BTW
Which parts of "2.3k~2.4k with 2 hits landed" and "with just cruor buff" you don't understand?
Which part of "My highest without any STR atma only gives me 5.4k damage" you don't understand?

[Quetzacoatl]

2 STR atma, triple attack proc

WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU NOT USING RAZED RUINS

YOUR STR IS AUTO-CAPPED BY THE TIME YOU PUT ON CRUOR BUFFS

Don't you talk to me about complaining when you're doing it wrong.

[Seha]

I wonder if that thread about dual wielding great katana will be taken seriously now...Samurai Tanaka is on the move!

[VZX]

WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU NOT USING RAZED RUINS

YOUR STR IS AUTO-CAPPED BY THE TIME YOU PUT ON CRUOR BUFFS

Don't you fucking underestimate me again.
And why on earth IT WAS ME? I was making a case for the 7k shoha screenshot.
And I don't advocate using RR when spamming this WS in Abyssea anyway.

And what the hell is "Your str is auto-capped" ? Please educate yourself with game mechanics further.

[Quetzacoatl]

And why on earth IT WAS ME? I was making a case for the 7k shoha screenshot.
And I don't advocate using RR when spamming this WS in Abyssea anyway.

And what the hell is "Your str is auto-capped" ? Educate yourself with mechanics further.

RR in your melee phase will help increase your Overall damage in your TP phase, land more hits, more crits, more crit damage, and higher crit damage on aftermath proc from Tachi: Fudo when Meditate is down

There's also a certain point where adding more STR will just end up giving diminishing returns, so generally it's not worth adding more STR when you could be adding an Attack+ atma like Alpha & Omega.

Tell me where i'm wrong.

[Finuve]

Which parts of "2.3k~2.4k with 2 hits landed" and "with just cruor buff" you don't understand?
Which part of "My highest without any STR atma only gives me 5.4k damage" you don't understand?what part of average dont you understand? 50 STR does not equate to 1600 damage, and I completely ignored triple attack procs

[Ophannus]

I've been trying to break 6k with stardiver and just now I got 5,999 -_-

[Unaisis]

i use TP bonus weapon

Atma: Apoc VV Smiting Blow

Average dmg is 5k and spikes up to 6-7k Highest being 7400ish

i Whore out on the STR mod ._.

Average outside of abyseea on VT mobs average 1800-3400

and again i just whore out the STR mod lol

[Quetzacoatl]

i use TP bonus weapon

Atma: Apoc VV Smiting Blow

Average dmg is 5k and spikes up to 6-7k Highest being 7400ish

i Whore out on the STR mod ._.

Average outside of abyseea on VT mobs average 1800-3400

and again i just whore out the STR mod lol

I was going to mention, that's what the player in the screenshot in the first post used when testing it.

I'm certain he should've been using RR though for more aftermath crits, if that's even possible on SAM anymore with the ton of Store TP they get. X:

[Toren]

Shoha, does not need nerfing, Fudo and Kaiten still out damage it in almost every situation except in where it's a mob with high defense. Myself, and many other fellow Amanomurakumo & Masamune Samurai can attest to this. Abyssea and Atma shouldn't be factored into this.

[VZX]

RR in your melee phase will help increase your Overall damage in your TP phase, land more hits, more crits, more crit damage, and higher crit damage on aftermath proc from Tachi: Fudo when Meditate is down

There's also a certain point where adding more STR will just end up giving diminishing returns, so generally it's not worth adding more STR when you could be adding an Attack+ atma like Alpha & Omega.

Tell me where i'm wrong.
You are assuming everyone that spam Shoha has Masamune



what part of average dont you understand? 50 STR does not equate to 1600 damage, and I completely ignored triple attack procs
And what part you don't understand of "2.3k~2.4 when 2 hits landed" and "with just cruor buff" ?
Did I say 2 hits landed is ALL I had in 2 hours session? Did I say it was AVERAGE?

[Finuve]

You are assuming everyone that spam Shoha has Masamune



And what part you don't understand of "2.3k~2.4 when 2 hits landed" and "with just cruor buff" ?
Did I say 2 hits landed is ALL I had in 2 hours session? Did I say it was AVERAGE?so why did ur damage suck so bad? I was hitting 4k average 2hits with 1 STR atma, that 1 STR atma doesnt make 1600 damage

[Quetzacoatl]

Shoha, does not need nerfing, Fudo and Kaiten still out damage it in almost every situation except in where it's a mob with high defense. Myself, and other fellow Amanomurakumo & Masamune Samurai can attest to this. Abyssea and Atma shouldn't be factored into this.

The fact that it even has the potential should call for it...because I don't see how 3.4K outside of abyssea is overpowered when Ukko's is now going to be shot down to, what, a max of 3K? No siree, I don't see how that's overpowered. No Siree. <_<


You are assuming everyone that spam Shoha has Masamune

You should get one for your SAM regardless, if you're serious about your job.

[Dezaar]

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TheRealDlo/ffxi_20111216_135334.png

Yeah, uh, we need you to nerf this too, and um...we would like you to have it done before the Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerfs go live on the game servers. That'll be greeaat.

http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lumberg.jpg

I had 300tp ~ 2HWS DMG Atma and I hit this number once out of 50 WS's. Average was more like 3k tbh. Musta Triple attacked as I had A&O atma on two, along with VV>

[Toren]

my Shoha's roughly average between 1.8k~2.3k outside of abyssea, inside using VV, GC, A & O my rough average is 3k~3.4k with some of the best WS gear available to samurai anything that's above that is usually a DA or a TA.

Edit: My 85 verethragna black belt monk still walks all over my 90 masamune samurai with capped haste gear, and I don't see this changing anytime soon unless V smites nerf is massive.

[Hextitan]

If we're gonna post WS shots with no context to them, Resolution needs to be nerfed too:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f400/hexagramFFXI/Untitled-5.jpg

[Taint2]

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TheRealDlo/ffxi_20111216_135334.png

Yeah, uh, we need you to nerf this too, and um...we would like you to have it done before the Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerfs go live on the game servers. That'll be greeaat.

http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lumberg.jpg



lolabyssea

Ukko Damage war during VW.... (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/91236-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-damage-IV-We-can-t-read-your-black-text-or-Comic-Sans/page57)

[Theytak]

1. You don't have Shoha
2. You don't understand the underlying math behind it
3. You don't have Shoha

My highest without any STR atma only gives me 5.4k damage 1-2 times in 2 hours session when finishing trial of TP bonus GKT on wivre. 5.4k damage is that is I need triple attack proc on both hits and land.
For my case, in order to get 7k damage damage is only possible with 2 STR atma, triple attack proc AND land on all hits with nearly 300 TP worth.

You are saying like this happens every single time we unleash the WS at 100% TP. No. With just cruor buff you expect Shoha only dealing 2.3k-2.4k with 2 hits landed. Outside is about 2.1k, which is actually very close to Fudo damage where attack is capped on target mob.

What next you'll complain? Someone posting non brew 10k damage last stand on piercing weak mob and you will call a nerf? Get some grip.

Honestly, VZX, it feels kind of weird to disagree with you on numbers, but still;

Between the significant amount of STR gear available to sams, the moderately strong fTP relative to the other new ws, the fact that whoring out str gear increases the likelihood of capping fSTR even on stronger mobs, or getting fairly close on super tough ones, and the significant attack bonus shoha has allowing it to reach the pDIF cap much more easily than most ws; how can you not see how overpowered this ws is?

[Genostar]

You are assuming everyone that spam Shoha has Masamune



And what part you don't understand of "2.3k~2.4 when 2 hits landed" and "with just cruor buff" ?
Did I say 2 hits landed is ALL I had in 2 hours session? Did I say it was AVERAGE?

Not only this, and not only has VZX provided countless hours of research and information into weapon skills and how damage is actually calculated, but stating this:


"YOUR STR IS AUTO-CAPPED BY THE TIME YOU PUT ON CRUOR BUFFS"

You've automatically proven yourself incapable of understanding the WS dmg formula. I wonder what Shoha's mod is.

Oh wait, it's STR. Upwards of nearly 100%.

Crap, what's that damage formula again... directly from ffxiclopedia:

Damage = ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

Where
D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)
fSTR: function of difference between your STR and target's VIT
WSC: Secondary attribute like STR 30% (30% of your STR) * alpha
fTP : TP Multiplier (See individual Weapon Skill)
PDIF: function of (your Physical ATK/target’s Physical DEF)
WSC = integer(any secondary attributes) * @ (which is .85 at 99? I forgot already)

so let's take a 110 dmg gkt for the hell of it. weapon rank is 12. (110/9 = 12 + remainder 2)

fSTR caps at 20 in this case (weapon rank+8). so (str-vit+4)/4 = 20, (str-vit+4)=80, str-vit = 76. you need a difference of 76 str vs the mob's vit to cap fSTR in the first place. Cruor buffs don't always cap you anyway, but that's still not my point.

so where were we?

(110 + 20 + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

And this is where the point of this whole exercise is. WSC. What's WSC? A flat bonus from certain attributes for every weapon skill. And guess what?

It doesn't cap.

So not only is he getting an extra almost 40 ATK for all that STR on an atma in the first place (remember that patch a long time ago in a land far away for 2hd weapon jobs? oh yeah), he's also getting an extra 40 STR that's used as a secondary mod for a almost 100% STR ws.

Going through the rest of this exercise is pointless; if you don't see it and you don't understand it, have fun continuing to be terrible at this game. I need to get back to my job.

[Quetzacoatl]

If we're gonna post WS shots with no context to them, Resolution needs to be nerfed too:
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f400/hexagramFFXI/Untitled-4.jpg

Resolution can't be used 30% more frequently.

That number is huge, though! Let me guess, WAR with Mighty Strikes up

[Finuve]

also, I dont really care if shoha gets nerfed or not, its definitely powerful, and I keep calling it OP, but its just powerful

other WSs just badly need buffed, to list AGAIN

Quietus, Cloudsplitter, Camlann's Torment, Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat, and probably quite a few relic WSs, Metsu for sure to start that list

[scaevola]

do you want me to post a screenshot of me getting a 6k jinpu with AoA, too?

christ, you people

shoha is overpowered but reposting an abyssea triple attack proc over and over again like it means something is pretty dumb

[Hextitan]

That number is huge, though! Let me guess, WAR with Mighty Strikes up

Yeah, you got me :P

[Seha]

my Shoha's roughly average between 1.8k~2.3k outside of abyssea.
I think you need better gear.

[Genostar]

excuse me while I post a 4k Exenterator on Kirin on thief, ohmygod nerf dagger WS

[Quetzacoatl]

Not only this, and not only has VZX provided countless hours of research and information into weapon skills and how damage is actually calculated, but stating this:


"YOUR STR IS AUTO-CAPPED BY THE TIME YOU PUT ON CRUOR BUFFS"

You've automatically proven yourself incapable of understanding the WS dmg formula. I wonder what Shoha's mod is.

Oh wait, it's STR. Upwards of nearly 100%.

Crap, what's that damage formula again... directly from ffxiclopedia:

Damage = ( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

Where
D: Base damage of your weapon (e.g., Espadon = 43)
fSTR: function of difference between your STR and target's VIT
WSC: Secondary attribute like STR 30% (30% of your STR) * alpha
fTP : TP Multiplier (See individual Weapon Skill)
PDIF: function of (your Physical ATK/target’s Physical DEF)
WSC = integer(any secondary attributes) * @ (which is .85 at 99? I forgot already)

so let's take a 110 dmg gkt for the hell of it. weapon rank is 12. (110/9 = 12 + remainder 2)

fSTR caps at 20 in this case (weapon rank+8). so (str-vit+4)/4 = 20, (str-vit+4)=80, str-vit = 76. you need a difference of 76 str vs the mob's vit to cap fSTR in the first place. Cruor buffs don't always cap you anyway, but that's still not my point.

so where were we?

(110 + 20 + WSC) * fTP * PDIF

And this is where the point of this whole exercise is. WSC. What's WSC? A flat bonus from certain attributes for every weapon skill. And guess what?

It doesn't cap.

So not only is he getting an extra almost 40 ATK for all that STR on an atma in the first place (remember that patch a long time ago in a land far away for 2hd weapon jobs? oh yeah), he's also getting an extra 40 STR that's used as a secondary mod for a almost 100% STR ws.

Going through the rest of this exercise is pointless; if you don't see it and you don't understand it, have fun continuing to be terrible at this game. I need to get back to my job.

I stand corrected. Regardless of such, this just proves my point further on why Shoha should be nerfed. Thanks for the contribution!

[Genostar]

I stand corrected. Regardless of such, this just proves my point further on why Shoha should be nerfed. Thanks for the contribution!

actually it has nothing to do with it. the 7k shot was lucky as hell. I've done crazy damage with Raging Rush (6.5k) too.

Shoha doesn't need a nerf. Most of everything else needs a buff. Stop focusing on the wrong issue.

[Cream_Soda]

WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU NOT USING RAZED RUINS

YOUR STR IS AUTO-CAPPED BY THE TIME YOU PUT ON CRUOR BUFFS

Don't you talk to me about complaining when you're doing it wrong.

I see no point in using razed ruins, tbh, not on Shoha sam anyways. There's no ODD and you're only doing 4 swings between ws. Razed ruins does nothing on Shoha. I'd rather buff the major portion of my damage (I.E. The ws) than those pathetic 4 melee swings in between.

[darkhorror]

I can break 7k with the 1hand axe ws. I expect I should able to break 8k if given a triple attack without the mob dying before all hits land.

[IronPandemonium]

dark knight sucks and has always sucked so i'm going to cry about it on here

Do yourself a favor and cry about your own job's weapon skills paling in comparison to not only Samurai (obviously), but any other jobs' weapon skills (even Ukko's/Smite after the incoming nerf I'm sure).

At this rate with condescending players such as yourself, we'll all be left with weapon skills that do no more than a thousand damage on anything, with any weapon, ever, because level seventy-five damage numbers are clearly the numbers we should see at ninety-nine; fucking idiot.

[Genostar]

Not only is there everything I stated, and this axe comment, and the comment from Cream Soda, but keep in mind there are other WSes that also have STR mods that need a nerf, by your logic. I don't think this WS (Shoha) needs a 2x ATK buff and I don't think it has one that high, but it does have some of an attack bonus. Guess what also gets an attack bonus? Most of the other merited WSes for jobs that need them due to having lower damage rating weapons. Holy crap, logic. Even more logic: they get negative or no bonus at 100tp and get positive bonuses a little higher than 100tp. I can also name a WS I never use at 100tp outside abyssea, I wait for 120, say hello to Blade: Hi.

BALANCEEEEEEEEE

Also: Merit some of the other 2 hand weaponskills to cap, properly gear them, and see what kind of damage you get out of them. Resolution is also an STR mod, and hits 5 times, hint hint.

[Tashan]

I had 300tp ~ 2HWS DMG Atma and I hit this number once out of 50 WS's. Average was more like 3k tbh. Musta Triple attacked as I had A&O atma on two, along with VV>

Don;t believe this BS. He did it double weakened @ 100 TP without cruor buffs.


NERF HIM! NERF DIS MOTHER******!

[scaevola]

I think you need better gear.

No, 2k's pretty reasonable for Shoha outside; damage is a little inconsistent because SAM happens to have a lot of DA after the Zanshin update but as for the baseline WS, STR gear is easy to get so adding another 10 or 15 more on top of the 80 or so you're falling ass-backwards into with twilight helm/mail isn't going to magically turn it into something it isn't.

What it is is a solidly above-average WS that happened to be given to a job that can use it every 15 seconds or so.

[Theytak]

hmmmmm, after running the numbers again on shoha's fTP and sam's general pool of available str gear, I'm going to take back my assertion that it needs to be nerfed because it's to strong. I still think it should be nerfed because sam is to strong in general, but the numbers seem to suggest that it doesn't need a significant nerf. The other merit ws, however, need a significant buff, if they're not going to make them at least a little uniform in terms of damage ranges.


No, 2k's pretty reasonable for Shoha outside; damage is a little inconsistent because SAM happens to have a lot of DA after the Zanshin update but as for the baseline WS, STR gear is easy to get so adding another 10 or 15 more on top of the 80 or so you're falling ass-backwards into with twilight helm/mail isn't going to magically turn it into something it isn't.

What it is is a solidly above-average WS that happened to be given to a job that can use it every 15 seconds or so.

pretty much this.

[Quetzacoatl]

actually it has nothing to do with it. the 7k shot was lucky as hell. I've done crazy damage with Raging Rush (6.5k) too.

Shoha doesn't need a nerf. Most of everything else needs a buff. Stop focusing on the wrong issue.

Eh... I wouldn't go there until it's for sure that people start coming SAM to everything again.

And after thinking it over, when I said "auto-capped from cruor buffs," I have to admit I was thinking of STR in context of DRK WS, where Scythe and Great Sword WS (outside of Resoluton) are more attack-based and STR only adds to fSTR, not WSC. Guess I've been playing DRK too much, lol.

[Toren]

my Shoha's roughly average between 1.8k~2.3k outside of abyssea.

This was only based off of a few times I have been able to use Shoha outside of Abyssea with only 2/5 merit pumps, I haven't played around with it as much outside of Abyssea since I capped it out, However I'm not going to argue the point but my gear is fine.

[IronPandemonium]

Main Job: PUP lv. 95

Of course you think it needs nerfing.

Moron.

[Quetzacoatl]

I see no point in using razed ruins, tbh, not on Shoha sam anyways. There's no ODD and you're only doing 4 swings between ws. Razed ruins does nothing on Shoha. I'd rather buff the major portion of my damage (I.E. The ws) than those pathetic 4 melee swings in between.

Duely noted


Do yourself a favor and cry about your own job's weapon skills paling in comparison to not only Samurai (obviously), but any other jobs' weapon skills (even Ukko's/Smite after the incoming nerf I'm sure).

At this rate with condescending players such as yourself, we'll all be left with weapon skills that do no more than a thousand damage on anything, with any weapon, ever, because level seventy-five damage numbers are clearly the numbers we should see at ninety-nine; fucking idiot.

Is trying to set up trollbait a normal thing on Asura?

[IronPandemonium]

Is trying to set up trollbait a normal thing on Asura?

Nope, but terrible players crying about the wrong things certainly is normal.

[Theytak]

Of course you think it needs nerfing.

Moron.

...because the single displayed job is obviously a 100% accurate sign of a person's knowledge of the game mechanics, and there's no way that person could possible have other jobs. You don't see me accusing you of never even playing the game, mr. WAR lv. 1, do you? No, I think not. Go troll somewhere else.

[newmonkey]

Why are certain mongs comparing shohas from abyssea gdi abyssea is over, at least compare ws outside.

[Taint2]

Duely noted



Is trying to set up trollbait a normal thing on Asura?


DO NOT IGNORE ME

SHOHA DOES NOT DO THIS (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/91236-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-damage-IV-We-can-t-read-your-black-text-or-Comic-Sans/page57)

[scaevola]

For comparison's sake, I haven't used my 3/5 Shoha outside of Abyssea on anything meaningful yet (closest were Gustav worms/turtles to get stones for friends' LB), but on those mobs, I was doing about 1100 to the turtles and 1800 to the worms. I don't have twilight mail or helm.

On DNC I did about 800 and 1100 to the same mobs (respectively) with Dancing Edge. Shoha is still waaaaay behind anything that we look at and say "holy shit that's pretty overpowered". It's only overpowered relative to content designed with the expectation that we should.....still be using shit like Dancing Edge.

[IronPandemonium]

i'm totally not biased to puppetmaster

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5990/homeimprovement.jpg

[Quetzacoatl]

Nope, but terrible players crying about the wrong things certainly is normal.

Whatever man, believe what you like. I'm all for boosting other jobs, but the way I see things, SAM really should really be brought to WAR's level. After the Ukko nerf, that balance has been upset.


DO NOT IGNORE ME

SHOHA DOES NOT DO THIS (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/91236-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-damage-IV-We-can-t-read-your-black-text-or-Comic-Sans/page57)

That's pre-nerf though :x

[Theytak]

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/5990/homeimprovement.jpg

...I'm a mnk and a war too, yo. Sorry if I enjoy playing pup more because I need to put more thought into it than engage->TP->ws->repeat. That doesn't have any bearing on my opinions of shoha, since I've fully accepted that pup will never be a top tier Zerg DD and have made that feeling pretty clear in the past.

But since we're using children's logic, your opinion is absolutely irrelevant to every discussion on this forum because someone who's main job is level 1 has obviously never played this game.

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/6/9/6910d763588002d7b0aec6db20f975b1.jpg

[IronPandemonium]

Whatever man, believe what you like. I'm all for boosting other jobs, but the way I see things, SAM really should really be brought to WAR's level. After the Ukko nerf, that balance has been upset.

I'm pretty certain you were crying about Shoha even before the Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage nerfs today via test server numbers, so yes, I'll believe what I like, because you among crowds of others seemingly want to never do good damage ever in favor of balance(.jpg), instead of wanting to do just as much damage as the clearly relevant jobs currently (or job now, rather, since all that crying about Ukko's/Smite in the weapon skill thread clearly got through to them).

[Motenten]

7k Shoha is possible with two triple attack procs. Average with 2 TAs is about 6k, and with a generally high pDif it can hit 7k. The only practical means of getting that kind of proc is with Apoc atma (and per the person who did it, also A&O atma) inside Abyssea. But we're not talking inside Abyssea, we want outside (though there are certainly still considerations for drk's non-crit weaponskills inside Abyssea to compare with the other jobs).

Outside Abyssea you're looking at maybe 1 DA at best most of the time (~15%-20%?), with a rare chance at 2 DA. Given exactly the same setup as the theoretical 7k Abyssea weaponskill, that's about a 2k average with no DA, a 2.5k average with one DA, 3.1k with two DAs. Overall average is slightly over 2k. Of course then you add Overwhelm and it can increase to a 2.4k average.

For Ukko war vs same target, it's about 2.1k without Blood Rage, 2.7k with Blood Rage (using current version of Blood Rage). Add in Restraint and average increases to 2.5k to 3.2k (without/with BR). With war's DA rate, there's a much higher likelihood of a couple DAs proccing, giving you more noticeable spikes.


Overall DPS for those two was about 215 for sam and 183 for war (after averaging out durations for Berserk/Blood Rage/Restraint). Doesn't count extra skillchain damage that sam can easily pick up.


Long term average, mnk actually has a higher DPS than either of those two (228) even though it has a lower weaponskill average. However, many NM fights nowadays are more heavily skewed towards weaponskill damage due to Save TP, wings, and meditating outside melee range. If a war or sam can sekka two weaponskills right off the bat, that can give them enough of a lead that the mnk would never catch up before the mob is dead.

Note: I haven't implemented Save TP in all spreadsheets yet, so numbers don't account for that.


On atma: If using a TP Bonus Keito, best atma combo with Shoha for overall DPS is Apoc, VV, Griffon Claw. RR is pretty far behind. If using a Masamune and trying to mix in ODD, RR catches up, but seems more of a hassle than it's worth. Even with straight-up Fudo, RR is more of a sidegrade.

[Quetzacoatl]

I don't think this WS (Shoha) needs a 2x ATK buff and I don't think it has one that high, but it does have some of an attack bonus.

That's what I mentioned in the Original Post- that the attack bonus should be reduced to a level where most DDs are able to compete at. I said nothing about nerfing STR; the STR Atma bit was a completely different argument in context of Masamune builds for Abyssea. And Abyssea is still pretty relevant to the game.


Guess what also gets an attack bonus? Most of the other merited WSes for jobs that need them due to having lower damage rating weapons. Holy crap, logic. Even more logic: they get negative or no bonus at 100tp and get positive bonuses a little higher than 100tp. I can also name a WS I never use at 100tp outside abyssea, I wait for 120, say hello to Blade: Hi.

BALANCEEEEEEEEE

Why the hell did they nerf Realmrazer and Ruinator then?! D:


Also: Merit some of the other 2 hand weaponskills to cap, properly gear them, and see what kind of damage you get out of them. Resolution is also an STR mod, and hits 5 times, hint hint.

I did that on the test server, Reso looks really good <3

[Theytak]

I'm pretty certain you were crying about Shoha even before the Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage nerfs today via test server numbers, so yes, I'll believe what I like, because you among crowds of others seemingly want to never do good damage ever in favor of balance(.jpg), instead of wanting to do just as much damage as the clearly relevant jobs currently (or job now, rather, since all that crying about Ukko's/Smite in the weapon skill thread clearly got through to them).

I've been talking about shoha because it's a complete outlier in the new ws they added and goes completely against their obvious intention of the new ws being side grades. I've done no "crying". I enjoy the delicious tears of people who piss and moan about random crap just as much as you do.

Besides, consider this: your shock-jockey posting style of "You're a big @^&%ing baby, stop crying" to get a rise out of people isn't that much different from me saying "nerf shoha, it's OP" to watch the sams rush in rage all over "the idiots who don't know how bad sam has it". Seriously, the only reason I'm replying to you is because I love to feed trolls.

[IronPandemonium]

...I'm a mnk and a war too, yo.

An awful one at that, seeing how you're under the impression Shoha absolutely destroyed Ukko's Fury.

Oh wait, look at this: NO UKKO'S FURY OR EVEN VICTORY SMITE HOBOY. (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Siren/Theytak#item-sets)

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/2684/1305424009336.png

[scaevola]

Whatever man, believe what you like. I'm all for boosting other jobs, but the way I see things, SAM really should really be brought to WAR's level. After the Ukko nerf, that balance has been upset.

Okay, how about this: what if, in order to balance this new merit WS that isn't really any stronger than WAR's merit WS, SAM had to contend with it only making a level 2 skillchain with Konzen-Ittai, thereby severely compromising its single strongest JA and actually being weaker with K-I than Gekko, which makes Darkness?

Oh wait, Shoha already does that!



That's pre-nerf though :x

The new numbers will still be higher than Shoha and Fudo.

Qilin will still die faster than it takes to cap lights on him.

The only thing hurting after the WAR nerf will be Atoreis' self esteem.

[Quetzacoatl]

I'm pretty certain you were crying about Shoha even before the Ukko's Fury and Blood Rage nerfs today via test server numbers, so yes, I'll believe what I like, because you among crowds of others seemingly want to never do good damage ever in favor of balance(.jpg), instead of wanting to do just as much damage as the clearly relevant jobs currently (or job now, rather, since all that crying about Ukko's/Smite in the weapon skill thread clearly got through to them).


I've been talking about shoha because it's a complete outlier in the new ws they added and goes completely against their obvious intention of the new ws being side grades. I've done no "crying". I enjoy the delicious tears of people who piss and moan about random crap just as much as you do.

Besides, consider this: your shock-jockey posting style of "You're a big @^&%ing baby, stop crying" to get a rise out of people isn't that much different from me saying "nerf shoha, it's OP" to watch the sams rush in rage all over "the idiots who don't know how bad sam has it". Seriously, the only reason I'm replying to you is because I love to feed trolls.

Quoted for truth.

Even if I advocated boosting other Weapon Skills to make them just as good as Ukko's/Smite, wouldn't that idea get rejected as well anyway in the case of the game being "too easy?" Not to mention it would get shot down by SE anyway, so I'd like to see what you can offer better than I can.

Man up, IronPandemonium.

[Theytak]

An awful one at that, seeing how you're under the impression Shoha absolutely destroyed Ukko's Fury.

Oh wait, look at this: NO UKKO'S FURY OR EVEN VICTORY SMITE HOBOY. (http://www.ffxiah.com/player/Siren/Theytak#item-sets)

Since when am I.... what? You're not even reading my posts. Where did I say shoha's stronger than ukko's? I've never denied that ukkowar/veremnk are stronger than sam... And also, obviously ancient/out of date gear sets are obvious...

[IronPandemonium]

Even if I advocated boosting other Weapon Skills to make them just as good as Ukko's/Smite, wouldn't that idea get rejected as well anyway in the case of the game being "too easy?"

Lv99 content has ~300k HP bars, whereas the hardest back at Lv75 had 60k.

You're absolutely fucking retarded if you think we should do doing Lv75 damage numbers at Lv99.


http://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gif

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/4764/yourtearsaredelicious.jpg

[Theytak]

Lv99 content has ~300k HP bars, whereas the hardest back at Lv75 had 60k.

You're absolutely fucking retarded if you think we should do doing Lv75 damage numbers at Lv99.

How would you know? You're level 1.

Moron.

[Finuve]

wait is someone trying to call jinte an idiot, now I've seen it all

[Frost]

ITT someone takes a screenshot of someone's maximum damage in Abyssea and takes it to be the norm...

How quickly recent history becomes all of history...

You do realize since the day sam was added to the game and up to the 2-handed buff, sam was a complete joke right? It's melee hits were weaker than a mnks, and a mnk can dish out those hits nearly 4x as fast? You realize War was in much the same boat at about the same time right? People think the 2handed buff was there since the game's inception.. So your cute little "Shit, game's going back to 2003" (paraphrased) comment is a little trite..

The only thing "2003" about SE is it's current thirst to nerf everything...

If you want this game to be better, don't cry for more nerfs.

SE follows that logic that if they can nerf everything into oblivion we'll be happy somehow; and you're feeding that. Instead, keep trying, politely, to get more buffs for weaker jobs.

I don't think Tachi: Merit should be nerfed. I think that all melee jobs should have access to a weaponskill that does about the same damage, balancing those jobs through the utility of the weaponskill.

For instance:

Thieves should get a weaponskill with "Critical Damage Bonus" to be enhanced by their SA and TA.

War should get a Crit-Hit WS with a lower hit count so be enhanced by their bonuses (Double Attack Critical Attack bonus)

Drk should get a decent elemental weaponskill (think Wildfire, not infernal Scythe...) to work better on physically resistant monsters, never miss, and is easy to mob with relatively easy to attain gear.


People scream for homogeneity and they don't even realize they're doing it.

Saying "I don't like pasta" without giving a better vision of what you'd like results in nothing.

Saying "They don't deserve steaks" without giving a better reason why doesn't do anything either.

[Quetzacoatl]

Okay, how about this: what if, in order to balance this new merit WS that isn't really any stronger than WAR's merit WS, SAM had to contend with it only making a level 2 skillchain with Konzen-Ittai, thereby severely compromising its single strongest JA and actually being weaker with K-I than Gekko, which makes Darkness?

Oh wait, Shoha already does that!

Kasha >> Shoha >> Fudo double-Light self-skillchain.


The new numbers will still be higher than Shoha and Fudo.

Qilin will still die faster than it takes to cap lights on him.

The only thing hurting after the WAR nerf will be Atoreis' self esteem.

I thought Fudo was fair for SAM, really. :S

[Tamoa]

Why are certain mongs comparing shohas from abyssea gdi abyssea is over, at least compare ws outside.

This.

While it was extremely fun seeing big ws numbers as sam in abyssea, it really doesn't mean much.

[Finuve]

Drk should get a decent elemental weaponskill (think Wildfire, not infernal Scythe...) to work better on physically resistant monsters, never miss, and is easy to mob with relatively easy to attain gear.NOOOO FFS NO NO NO NO NO NO

[Theytak]

wait is someone trying to call jinte an idiot, now I've seen it all

to be fair, I've honestly stopped caring about the official forums, outside of the test server feedback, which at least I've had some good experience with. At this point, I'd say about 50~60% of what I post is either intentionally guesstimated to agitate people, or blatantly wrong to see how many people will correct me. Not to say I don't try to be constructive, but given that this forum has about the same general level of intelligence as the ffxiclopedia and ffxiah forums, I don't try very hard.

[IronPandemonium]

>i have bg-tier logic

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2425/1283963023184.png

[Siiri]

I support reducing the damage output of Tachi: Shoha. It seems very overpowered, and as Theytak described it, it is a huge outlier compared to the other merit weaponskills.

[svengalis]

Lower the damage of a weapon skill? Seriously? Please tell me I'm posting in a troll thread; I have to be.

I am just as baffled as you are. It wouldn't be the first time though that players asked for a job to be nerfed, look at what they did to rangers.

[Frost]

I am just as baffled as you are. It wouldn't be the first time though that players asked for a job to be nerfed, look at what they did to rangers.

What's a Ranger?

[scaevola]

Kasha >> Shoha >> Fudo double-Light self-skillchain.


Would you at least concede that for this to happen an awful lot needs to go right, not the least of which being lucky zanshins after you've already used Sekkanoki and nobody else WSing the mob you're attacking for a good 5-10 seconds (this will never happen)?

And even then, it still doesn't have anything to do with Konzen-Ittai being a big part of why SAM is good now and kind of sucking with Shoha?



What's a Ranger?

The job that would be opening my chests in Abyssea for the next three months if Voidwatch got rid of fanatic's drinks. :(

[Theytak]

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2425/1283963023184.png

your image macros and quasi-witty one liners are cute and all, but they're not really original, and I'm getting bored.

[Quetzacoatl]

Would you at least concede that for this to happen an awful lot needs to go right, not the least of which being lucky zanshins after you've already used Sekkanoki and nobody else WSing the mob you're attacking for a good 5-10 seconds (this will never happen)?

And even then, it still doesn't have anything to do with Konzen-Ittai being a big part of why SAM is good now and kind of sucking with Shoha?

I suppose I should. I better not see the game flooded with SAMs though, because I'm holding your word to it!


Lv99 content has ~300k HP bars, whereas the hardest back at Lv75 had 60k.

You're absolutely fucking retarded if you think we should do doing Lv75 damage numbers at Lv99.

I'm not asking for level 75 damage numbers >_>

Fine, if everyone's so adamant about not nerfing Shoha, then let's propose to at least boost the following Weapon Skills where they are on par with Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite:

Metatron Torment, Tachi: Kaiten, Final Heaven, Blade: Metsu, Onslaught, Knights of the Round, Mercy Stroke, Randgrith, Catastrophe, Scourge, Geirskogul, Namas Arrow, Quietus, Camlann's Torment, Torcleaver, Upheaval, Entropy, Shijin Spiral, Realmrazer, Ruinator.

Feel free to say which ones don't need a boost and which ones do.

[IronPandemonium]

your image macros and quasi-witty one liners are cute and all, but they're not really original, and I'm getting bored.

I'd say the same thing too if I was called out on being gimp as shit on all my jobs and had nothing else to back myself with afterward.


I'm not asking for level 75 damage numbers >_>

Fine, if everyone's so adamant about not nerfing Shoha, then let's propose to at least boost the following Weapon Skills where they are on par with Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite:

Metatron Torment, Tachi: Kaiten, Final Heaven, Blade: Metsu, Onslaught, Knights of the Round, Mercy Stroke, Randgrith, Catastrophe, Scourge, Geirskogul, Namas Arrow, Quietus, Camlann's Torment, Torcleaver, Upheaval, Entropy, Shijin Spiral, Realmrazer, Ruinator.

Feel free to say which ones don't need a boost and which ones do.

Much better.

[Theytak]

I'd say the same thing too if I was called out on being gimp as shit on all my jobs and had nothing else to back myself with afterward.



Much better.
Aside from the obviously out of date item sets you link (hai2uerlking's), you've not actually expressed that I might not be well geared. For that matter, when have I denied that my gear isn't full AF3+2donewithabysseagrindinglogwatchformonths quality? I haven't even played this game frequently since april. How does the fact that I don't have the time to play and the will to bother getting better gear for events I'm not going to do change the fact that I understand the mechanics and equations that make this game run better than 95% of the playerbase? Math's not hard.

[Quetzacoatl]

Much better.

Seriously? That's it? You're not even going to point out which ones don't need to be boosted? Just like that?

You're not going to tell me how much of an Idiot I am for telling everyone that boosting ALL of those weapon skills to 4k-7K damage levels is just as retarded as nerfing Tachi: Shoha?

[FrankReynolds]

This thread has taken a turn back towards constructive. I must be in the wrong forum.

[IronPandemonium]

http://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gifhttp://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gifhttp://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gifhttp://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gifhttp://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gifhttp://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gifhttp://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gifhttp://images.bluegartr.com/images/smilies/safeface.gif

Maybe you should stop posting here then and update your nearly-year-irrelevant gear and claims.


Seriously? That's it? You're not even going to point out which ones don't need to be boosted? Just like that?

You're not going to tell me how much of an Idiot I am for telling everyone that boosting ALL of those weapon skills to 4k-7K damage levels is just as retarded as nerfing Tachi: Shoha?

Well it's pretty clear that all of the relic weapon skills currently are horrid bar Mercy Stroke to some degree, and seeing how the bulk of your list is them at first glance, why should I disapprove of it in general.

I mean, looking at it again, Upheaval does pretty good as far as I've seen, as well as maybe Ruinator, but those aside, pointing out which ones are fine is entirely irrelevant anyways when you're going off the handle here, thinking Shoha doing 4k-7k outside Abyssea every time; even inside, 7k's pretty rare, whereas back at 90 Ukko's/Smite/Hi were doing that number pretty consistently.

[Taint2]

That's pre-nerf though :x

The nerf will hurt averages but not by enough to pull it down to Shoha levels and WAR has a superior WS rate as well. (In VW)

Prenerf UF wars were parsing 50-80% above a Shoha SAM. It wont be much different after the nerf. 30-50%?

[Theytak]

Maybe you should stop posting here then and update your nearly-year-irrelevant gear and claims.

yea, because the fact that I don't need to brag about how awesome my imaginary items are, and keep my lists of different set ups that I use updated every time I get a new piece of gear or else people will suddenly thing I'm not hardcore enough somehow impacts my understanding of simple math, and the way people work. Ok.

since when did gear = intelligence or understanding of the game? I enjoy playing with numbers, and people who don't enjoy having someone who does enjoy it to do it for them. That's how I've always handled it. The fact that I didn't have the time to devote to zerg my way through abyssea and now don't have any interest in grinding logwatch for gear with people I don't like doesn't change the fact that I post my opinions based on running numbers and knowing the way people play. (Are you enjoying the tears? You looked hungry)

[scaevola]

Seriously? That's it? You're not even going to point out which ones don't need to be boosted? Just like that?


here i can help

the following WSes do not need to be boosted:

-Quietus
-Scourge
-Entropy
-Torcleaver


otherwise buffs across the board

amidoinitrite

[Quetzacoatl]

here i can help

the following WSes do not need to be boosted:

Tachi:Shoha

otherwise buffs across the board

amidoinitrite

fixed that for you, lol

[FrankReynolds]

here i can help

the following WSes do not need to be boosted:

-Quietus
-Scourge
-Entropy
-Torcleaver


otherwise buffs across the board

amidoinitrite

LOL Now that more like it.

[Theytak]

NERF ONE INCH PUNCH, IT'S TOO STRONG.

[Quetzacoatl]

NERF ONE INCH PUNCH, IT'S TOO STRONG.

NERF GUILLOTINE WHILE WE'RE AT IT TOO! We don't want to use it anymore anyways!

[Theytak]

NERF GUILLOTINE WHILE WE'RE AT IT TOO! We don't want to use it anymore anyways!

why would you use guillotine, noob? Vorpal Scythe Crits, and only Crit ws are good.

[scaevola]

damn now i guess i AM going to have to get a screenshot of 6k jinpu

[Camiie]

I neither support the nerfs SE has announced, nor do I support this one. The devs need to start doing their jobs and fix the jobs and weapon skills that are underperforming before they even think about nerfing anyone.

People on forums like to call out fellow players for being lazy or inept. I don't think the devs should be cut any more slack than anyone else.

[Quetzacoatl]

why would you use guillotine, noob? Vorpal Scythe Crits, and only Crit ws are good.

Vorpal Scythe was already nerfed to hell and back!


damn now i guess i AM going to have to get a screenshot of 6k jinpu

we've seen upwards to 10K Jinpu's and 45K brewed; but if i remember correctly, Jinpu was pretty inconsistent, so no one cares :s

in before someone tries to say the same for Shoha

[IronPandemonium]

but if i remember correctly, Jinpu was pretty inconsistent, so no one cares :s

But you clearly care enough to make a topic about a screencap of a 300% WS with favorable atmas on easy content where practically everything else can hit that number too if they skew the scenario as well.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Also

tears

lol

[Sama]

I'm sorry... whoever making these decisions is full of shiat.

At first SE boost whatever new so strong and so easy to get, after a while, they nerf it. Very cheap trick and stupid.

[Quetzacoatl]

But you clearly care enough to make a topic about a screencap of a 300% WS with favorable atmas on easy content where practically everything else can hit that number too if they skew the scenario as well.

Just thought I'd point that out.

Except with Jinpu you could spike that much with 100% TP, granted you get triple attack to proc.

The fact that Dezaar's Shoha was done at 300% TP was not presented to me at the time.

[IronPandemonium]

The fact that Dezaar's Shoha was done at 300% TP with favorable atmas and a triple attack was not presented to me at the time.

Fixed that for you.

So what are we getting at here now anyways?

[Zerich]

I'll translate the OP's claim for those of you who didn't understand:

"BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW."

[Quetzacoatl]

Fixed that for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Liscg9-JddQ

[Tsukiumi]

I honestly don't get all the SAM hate. Yes, we got a good ws that's comparable to Fudo and does better on high defense mobs (my 90 Masa still cries at night) But Shoha is still nowhere Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite on Tier 3 Zilart/Jeuno VWNMs even after the nerf. Instead of asking for a nerf to Shoha, we should ask for buffs on everything else as people have suggested throughout this thread.

[IronPandemonium]

I'll translate the OP's claim for those of you who didn't understand:

"BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW."

Arguably the best post in the entire thread.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Liscg9-JddQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwnJw-eyacA

[Quetzacoatl]

We should let this thread die already

fix'd for ya

[Zerich]

fix'd for ya

cool story bro
but srsly, calling for a nerf on other people's jobs is like my calling for WHM's Cure5 to cure only 100 HP more than Cure4, at max.
you have to face that SE believes that WARs somehow gimpy defensive ability (defender) would give it reason enough to gimp it's WS' potential damage.
MNK's nerf was pretty justified imho, cause all they're missing is the ability to heal alliances and haste themselves.


But no, I do not think that nerfs are the way to go for developing an MMO with recently introduced game-content (in relative terms to FFXI)
It would probably more intelligent to add new content to give the next job-of-the-month a chance to shine with a new awesome OMFG drop.

Oh yes, and of course


BALANCE

[Coldbrand]

Oh no, one of the new ws are actually useful, well because I'm butthurt about other pointless nerfs, everyone has to go down with me.

[Quetzacoatl]

Oh no, one of the new ws are actually useful, well because I'm butthurt about other pointless nerfs, everyone has to go down with me.

Too useful. I wouldn't mind if it's useful, but too useful is a different matter. we'll just have to wait and see how many SAMs are running around after the WAR & Ukkos/VS nerfs go live.

[Coldbrand]

Those nerfs shouldn't go live to begin with.

[MojoJojo]

Maybe a better idea would be to up the damage on the other ws's before we nerf the few that got it right?

[VZX]

Honestly, I could care less about who is dealing more damage if they can add another battle mechanics other than dealing damage. Abyssea and Voidwatch add this queer mechanics called proc system which is a crappy pseudo motivator of job diversity in a fight. In this case, proc system takes precedence of your kill speed. Even if you can 1 shot something, that's useless without proc.

But they should be able doing better stuff than that. Skillchain... if they can employ something like lowering target's magic evasion on related element or even gives various additional effect on various skillchain i.e. silence on 0~500 damage induration/distortion/darkness, paralyze on 500~1000 damage induration/distortion/darkness, etc. And the chance of inflicting such effects and number of effects raise as you making higher SC.

Or you could add magic bursting have chance to enhances TH, making a mob getting resistant to certain damage type after a certain amount of that type of damage inflicted to it, etc.

See how this is more interesting than stacking up haste, load all your JA, and whack away.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Maybe a better idea would be to up the damage on the other ws's before we nerf the few that got it right?War was supposed to be a tank to begin with, they're just trying to move it away from what it has become.
That aside, and even shoha aside, there's litteraly 2 jobs dominating the game atm. War or mnk or GTFO basically. They're "balance" is attempting to make the other jobs more usable. And no. upping otehr jobs is not a viable option. Then it would have no end and then entire game will just turn into munchkin.

[Quetzacoatl]

War was supposed to be a tank to begin with, they're just trying to move it away from what it has become.
That aside, and even shoha aside, there's litteraly 2 jobs dominating the game atm. War or mnk or GTFO basically. They're "balance" is attempting to make the other jobs more usable. And no. upping otehr jobs is not a viable option. Then it would have no end and then entire game will just turn into munchkin.

That was the point I was trying to make when I said "oh hey, let's boost virtually every other weapon skill in the game!" God this game has made me become too negative for my own good.

SQUARE-ENIX, WE NEED TO NERF YOUR NEGATIVE NANCY-CREATING CAPABILITIES, KTHX.

[FrankReynolds]

War was supposed to be a tank to begin with, they're just trying to move it away from what it has become.
That aside, and even shoha aside, there's litteraly 2 jobs dominating the game atm. War or mnk or GTFO basically. They're "balance" is attempting to make the other jobs more usable. And no. upping otehr jobs is not a viable option. Then it would have no end and then entire game will just turn into munchkin.

Erm.... are you drunk or something?

[Quetzacoatl]

Erm.... are you drunk or something?

He has a point. SE has a knack of bumping everything up and down.

mostly down, rarely up.

[FrankReynolds]

He has a point. SE has a knack of bumping everything up and down.

Yeah, but..... War is not supposed to be a DD anymore, and the game will break if any other job is ever as powerful? and the wording / spacing and and....wtf is wrong with that post.

[Quetzacoatl]

Yeah, but..... War is not supposed to be a DD anymore, and the game will break if any other job is ever as powerful? and the wording / spacing and and....wtf is wrong with that post.

I think he meant that when Square-Enix starts nerfing and boosting several jobs into various amounts of broken and overpowered, back and forth repeatedly, the game will start to break.

[VZX]

so why did ur damage suck so bad? I was hitting 4k average 2hits with 1 STR atma, that 1 STR atma doesnt make 1600 damage
- I don't care for my average. I didn't track it.
- I don't care for your average, but I don't see how your average unbelievable or how my average can fall significantly lower than you do. You keep got yourself pestered by my "2.3k~2.4k when just 2 hit landed" while it certainly, in no way of, saying that is my average.


You should get one for your SAM regardless, if you're serious about your job.
Thank you for the concern, but my resources (time) isn't yours to be paying. If you do, then by all means come to Asura become my slave for working into one.



Honestly, VZX, it feels kind of weird to disagree with you on numbers, but still;

Between the significant amount of STR gear available to sams, the moderately strong fTP relative to the other new ws, the fact that whoring out str gear increases the likelihood of capping fSTR even on stronger mobs, or getting fairly close on super tough ones, and the significant attack bonus shoha has allowing it to reach the pDIF cap much more easily than most ws; how can you not see how overpowered this ws is?
Because you are seeing Abyssea.

You see these new WS have shear amount of base damage compared to previous WS. You see around 200 on dagger and close to 300 on 2 hander, while old WS only have like 60% of the amount and empyrean has close to 80% of the amount.
If you've already unlocked Exenterator to max, you should be able to see it how multi hit can boost your damage significantly.

We agree how devastating a crit'able WS becomes when you use RR atma. My Chant du Cygne outside abyssea probably can only spike up to slightly above 2k. In abyssea, I can spike close to 6k (maybe have broken one?) with RR GH and apoc. Almost 3x amount of damage
2-hit shoha is about 2.1k outside abyssea, 2.3k~2.4k with 2 hits landed and just cruor buff. I don't see how it's more broken than my CdC in terms of damage scaling when appropriate atmas are used.

[FrankReynolds]

when Square-Enix starts nerfing and boosting several jobs into various amounts of broken and overpowered, back and forth repeatedly, the game will start to break.

Somehow I doubt that. People thought the whole game would never survive the level cap increase to 80. It's just math and stuff. Nerfs are just the easy way out. It's like letting air out of 3 of your tires because one is low. Sure it's easier than getting out the bicycle pump, or driving to the filling station, but now you have 4 crappy tires.

[Quetzacoatl]

Somehow I doubt that. People thought the whole game would never survive the level cap increase to 80. It's just math and stuff. Nerfs are just the easy way out. It's like letting air out of 3 of your tires because one is low. Sure it's easier than getting out the bicycle pump, or driving to the filling station, but now you have 4 crappy tires.

Fuck, that's a simple way to look at it <,<

[Dirtyfinger]

Wow, someone posted a screenshot of a 7k Shoha (Abyssea trash mob no less) and everyone wants SAM nerfed.

A lot of unknowns surround that screenshot considering it was done inside Abyssea.

1. No one knows what Atma was used, possibly could have been Smiting/Griffon/Apoc.

2. High possibility that Apoc atma was used so it's possible/likely that Triple attack happened on both hits.

3. What was the subjob? Was it /THF and Sneak Attack was used?

4. People enjoy taking pictures of their epeen weapon skill damage, that screenshot could have been the best result after several hours, possibly with all of the above, who knows?


The point is that there's many variables involved in that screenshot considering the zone, and the chances of SAM producing 14k + skillchain damage from 2 weapon skills is highly unlikely inside Abyssea, and impossible outside.

[Kiyashi]

Someone should post what an Ukon's fury and Victory smite does inside abyssea lol Posting damage on a weak sauce mob and inside abyssea makes you look like a retard. Nerfs never help the game at all. But you're dumb to think Ukon's fury and victory smite doesn't do more than 7k+ inside abyssea. I've seen 11k+ and more before.

Shoha does about 2-3k+ outside abyssea which I can already do with Fudo for a long long time since empyreans were introduced. Instead of asking for nerfs you should be bitchin about the nerfs in the first place. Not other jobs. This is childish as all hell.

[Nidhogg]

Yeah, that's a pretty neat Triple attack Shoha you got there, Apoc, AaO, VV?

[Patters]

Ok... Gimping Ukko and VS.. which you have to EARN....and WORK for.. but not gimping a ws that does retarded damage that you can get in a day. THAT makes sense. Are the DEVs making this decision the same ones who made XIV? they HAVE to be. Only thing that would make such a stupid choice make sense.

[Quetzacoatl]

Ok... Gimping Ukko and VS.. which you have to EARN....and WORK for.. but not gimping a ws that does retarded damage that you can get in a day. THAT makes sense. Are the DEVs making this decision the same ones who made XIV? they HAVE to be. Only thing that would make such a stupid choice make sense.

Technically you have to work for Tachi: Shoha too. But yes, Abyssea EXP comes around so fast that the Time:Reward ratio getting the Weapon Skill in comparison to getting Empyreans is nowhere near the same.

[Tannlore]

Tell me about it. The game is going back to 2003-2006 again already.

*sarcasm mode on*
Not to take away from the discussion, but you aren't the first person to mention this. I find it kind of ironic with all the calls from people wanting the good old days before abyssea back. Here's a taste of it and maaaan are people mad. Make your you minds! lol
*sarcasm mode off*

Seriously though, it does need some balancing. I've seen this Ws in action and it is kinda... just wow. o.o;

[Skillgannon]

Wow really boo hoo wee wee lvl sam and shut up my god like listening to a bunch of kids aint much diff in the VS's iv seen from mnks >.>

[Patters]

I got 99 sam! :D yey me

[wish12oz]

If they're going to nerf other people's good weapon skills, they need to nerf Shona too, it's way to overpowered compared to a everything other than Ukkos and Vsmnite as they exist right now. So obviously once Ukkos and Vsmite are nerfed Shona will be way better than them.

[Patters]

It's SE's way of taking away a players happy. You got something good?! We spit on you! pork fried rice!

[Ophannus]

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TheRealDlo/ffxi_20111216_135334.png



Yeah, uh, we need you to nerf this too, and um...we would like you to have it done before the Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerfs go live on the game servers. That'll be greeaat.


the worst part is how common numbers like that are with that WS


http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/8365/10634865.jpg

Two 6.8k Drakesbanes in 3 minutes zomg that high damage is common NERF DRG TOO!11

[Cream_Soda]

Nice windower plugins Ophan

[Ravenmore]

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TheRealDlo/ffxi_20111216_135334.png




http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/8365/10634865.jpg

Two 6.8k Drakesbanes in 3 minutes zomg that high damage is common NERF DRG TOO!11

To bad thats in abyssea. Sam can do that any where on top of doing it getting a couple SC chains then start all over again. When a sam can reduce a IT mob's HP outside of abyssea 90/95% in one skillchain there is something wrong. Post a pick of you drg doing that outside of abyssea.

[Jomen]

To bad thats in abyssea. Sam can do that any where on top of doing it getting a couple SC chains then start all over again. When a sam can reduce a IT mob's HP outside of abyssea 90/95% in one skillchain there is something wrong. Post a pick of you drg doing that outside of abyssea.

Please, pleeeeease show me a sam doing 7k outside of abyssea. I will bow at their feet because they are the god of Sams and obviously I'm doing something wrong.

[Patters]

Wow... reading back, Ironpandemonium seems to have a huge rage issue, and takes the game WAYYYYYYY too seriously. Jesus Christ.

[CPBismarck]

So let me get this right, all the WAR's who had it great for so long are now crying me a river because SAM is getting more powerfull? Like really? lmao now thats just sad, and i agree with the previous posters, a troll thread is a troll thread, if SE takes even the slightest notice of this thread they are indeed dumb. Lets hope Tanaka doesnt listen to these baby cries and leaves SAM to return to what it does best :)

And on that note has anyone actually seen how much the nerf effects WAR and MNK?

[IronPandemonium]

revenant fists +2

Good to know son.

As for the matter of being supposedly "too serious" about the game,

http://i1120.photobucket.com/albums/l493/TheRealDlo/ffxi_20111216_135334.png

Pretty good number, am I right.

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4619/nerfthisplease.png

100% TP (125% with moonshade earring to be exact), berserk, voracious violet/razed ruins/apocalypse with Draca Couse and 5/5 merits and no food.

SEEMS LIKE AN EXPECTED WEAPON SKILL IS THE ONE THAT NEEDS A NERF AROUND HERE, TIME TO MAKE ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT IT.

[Nidhogg]

damn iron you so mad, go back to ffxiah.. oh wait.

[IronPandemonium]

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7498/youthinkthisisamotherfu.png

obligatory

[FrankReynolds]

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7498/youthinkthisisamotherfu.png

obligatory

I don't agree with your politics, but please keep posting silly things. That's really all there is left to say in this thread.

[Ophannus]

lolonly7kshohadamage
http://static.ffxiah.com/images/ss/full/4s8pQRckJ8F3p2U6.png

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/873beb52e9fb7570c9bcb8fd00de1575.png

[Rezeak]

Technically you have to work for Tachi: Shoha too. But yes, Abyssea EXP comes around so fast that the Time:Reward ratio getting the Weapon Skill in comparison to getting Empyreans is nowhere near the same.

You can get a 85 masamune in like 10-12 hours (well my ls can) so it's not really that much more of a callenge

either way lol at a QQ thread honestly ur just jealous your not SAM (otherwise why mention competing w/ SAMs)

ps doing 7k to a fodder mob one shots it ... i can already do that on my SCH w/ my nukes so i need to be nerfed too >>

[Quetzacoatl]

First off, I'd like to say I'm facepalming at my own thread. I admit i went off into the deep end and overreacted thinking Shoha was now stupidly more overpowered than everything other weapon skill after the Ukko/VS nerfs without doing more research.

Second, yes, the Screenshot in the first post is a lucky shot at 300% TP with a triple attack proc and favorable atmas. I just took the highest Screenshot I saw and assumed it was at 100% TP with favorable atmas. It was out of context, and i apologizing for demonizing the player's Screenshot.

So, I formally apologize for making this monstrosity of a thread and ask Square-Enix to start boosting the following weapon skills:

Every Relic Weapon Skill used with Relic Weapons- this should be priority #1

Every Mythic Weapon Skill used with Mythic Weapons

Empyrean Weapon Skills: Camlann's Torment, Rudra's Storm, Quietus, Torcleaver (it's a decent Weapon Skill but we wouldn't mind seeing a tweak or two)

Merit Weapon Skills: Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat, Shijin Spiral, Upheaval

[Ophannus]

SHijin Spiral beats Victory Smite when Impetus is down and after the next patch, will probably be the best h2h WS.

[Concerned4FFxi]

I disagree, just because someone with the right gear setup ws'd for 7k ya'll want to shun it. I heard noone crying when people were doing 7-10k damage with wildfire. Good god.

You can't self-skillchain wildfire like a Sam can self-skillchain there ws and these are empyrean ws we are talking about, that's the point.

[Concerned4FFxi]

Wow really boo hoo wee wee lvl sam and shut up my god like listening to a bunch of kids aint much diff in the VS's iv seen from mnks >.>

Again, another bad comaprison. Mnks can't self-skill chain 24/7, sam can. That's the problem, there was a reason all the sam ws couldn't, by themselves, compete with unko, because self skill chaining light brings the ws to unparalled heights. Now this merited ws in itself can compete or outdo the two best empyrean ws without skillchaining, that's a major problem. I don't even have to mention that merit ws are much easier to obtain than an empyrean ws. mWhere is the balance, where is the reward vs. balance?? And to make it worse, rather than SE focusing on this they are nerfing war and mnk. Like really? That's were the rage comes from, people people don't post on here if you can't follow the OP's arguement.

[Patters]

LOL Ironpandemonium do you think having Revenant fists+2 affects my ws damage That significantly? it's kinda sad if you think it does. I work a fulltime job son, do I have the TIME to sit and farm 100 choloris? no. and it's so easy to make you look like the fucktard that you are, and when someone does, you revert to insulting that person's gear. shows how sad and unoriginal you are. so easy to feed a hungry little troll like you. Let me go to whatever backwater server you are on and watch me walk all over your jobs with my revenant fists+2, while you do what you seem to do best. rage and Q-Q.

[Cream_Soda]

SHijin Spiral beats Victory Smite when Impetus is down and after the next patch, will probably be the best h2h WS.
Look at the stat diff between Vereth and Spharai though(for example, all the attack you get on Spharai), and also look at the math.

It was a comparison for Vereth Smite vs Spharai Spiral.

If you don't have Spharai I don't think Spiral is beating Smite on a wep w/ equiv stats. (For example if you're using a magian h2h or if for w/e reason you were able to use Smite on Spharai)

[Dirtyfinger]

100 Chloris?

[Patters]

100 Chloris?

Oh sorry I forgot I wasn't allowed to exaggerate.
You get the point I'm making.

[Dirtyfinger]

You're not really making a point as you could nearly finish 3 stage 1 H2H with 100 sets. I probably wouldn't bother doing it either if I had to farm 200 sets just to get an Emp to 85.

50 sets is exaggerating, 100 is being an idiot.

[FrankReynolds]

100 Chloris?

He was politely offering to farm mine for me.

[Patters]

You're not really making a point as you could nearly finish 3 stage 1 H2H with 100 sets. I probably wouldn't bother doing it either if I had to farm 200 sets just to get an Emp to 85.

50 sets is exaggerating, 100 is being an idiot.

Exaggeration
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Exaggeration is a representation of something in an excessive manner. The exaggerator has been a familiar figure in Western culture since at least Aristotle's discussion of the alazon: 'the boaster is regarded as one who pretends to have distinguished qualities which he possesses either not at all or to a lesser degree than he pretends...exaggerating'.[1]

How is what I said not exaggeration?

[Beathoi]

Lower the damage of a weapon skill? Seriously? Please tell me I'm posting in a troll thread; I have to be.

Well for them to claim that is why they are doing WAR and MNK it is only fair for them to do SAM too. But I have learned when ever gimping SAM is in order. They go ahead and gimp every other DD job so it kind of defeats the purpose...

[Dirtyfinger]

Thanks, I had absolutely no idea what exaggeration meant, you've changed my life.

I guess I'll just go back to my own full time (250 hour month) job and be more constructive with what little time I have on FFXI. Finishing an Emp after 18 months of Abyssea is hardcore, let alone finishing 4.

[IronPandemonium]

delicious, delicious tears

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/290/christianbaleamericanps.png

more, please; I implore you to write yet another long-winding paragraph to place further emphasis on your clearly-apparent rage on the matter of being called out on your mediocrity and in retort being so adamant on defending your internet pride as if it's something you keep atop a shelf like it were a trophy in relation to your past doings

[Patters]

ahh, another token photograph and poorly thought out insult from the internet troll. You bore me good sir.

[IronPandemonium]

Last edited by Patters; Today at 04:18 PM.

http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7820/christianbaleoface.jpg

[hiko]

Lv99 content has ~300k HP bars, whereas the hardest back at Lv75 had 60k.

You're absolutely fucking retarded if you think we should do doing Lv75 damage numbers at Lv99.
nobody posting on this forum thinks that.
Unlukily it's Tanaka idea of BALANCE


ITT someone takes a screenshot of someone's maximum damage in Abyssea and takes it to be the norm...

How quickly recent history becomes all of history...

You do realize since the day sam was added to the game and up to the 2-handed buff, sam was a complete joke right? It's melee hits were weaker than a mnks, and a mnk can dish out those hits nearly 4x as fast? You realize War was in much the same boat at about the same time right? People think the 2handed buff was there since the game's inception.. So your cute little "Shit, game's going back to 2003" (paraphrased) comment is a little trite..

The only thing "2003" about SE is it's current thirst to nerf everything...

If you want this game to be better, don't cry for more nerfs.

SE follows that logic that if they can nerf everything into oblivion we'll be happy somehow; and you're feeding that. Instead, keep trying, politely, to get more buffs for weaker jobs.

I don't think Tachi: Merit should be nerfed. I think that all melee jobs should have access to a weaponskill that does about the same damage, balancing those jobs through the utility of the weaponskill.



People scream for homogeneity and they don't even realize they're doing it.

Saying "I don't like pasta" without giving a better vision of what you'd like results in nothing.

Saying "They don't deserve steaks" without giving a better reason why doesn't do anything either.
qft

Maybe a better idea would be to up the damage on the other ws's before we nerf the few that got it right?
agree . SE did it right with shoha ( a WS stronger than lvl75 ones) why does they refuse to do it for all?

[Nala]

i'd guess unlike the player base they don't do any analyzing of the numbers before they determine the stats of weapon skills and release them, or for job abilities at all.

Later they get the shocking surprise that they actually made something good (dont worry they'll balance that)

[Flionheart]

hi ironguy

[Motenten]

agree . SE did it right with shoha ( a WS stronger than lvl75 ones) why does they refuse to do it for all?

So far on spreadsheet models based on what we know (WSC, fTP and attack bonus/penalties), I see (outside Abyssea, obviously, given the edge crit weaponskills have there):

positives:
Stardiver beats Shoha on lower def mobs (for sam), and is on par with or slightly better than Drakes (for drg).
Shun is on par with Hi, and decently above Jin.
Shijin Spiral is on par with Smite and decently above Asuran.
Exenterator is about 20% above DE/Evis.
Resolution can out-do Torcleaver (and both are well above Spinning Slash) if the new attack penalty I'm using is correct.

not-so-positives:
Upheaval barely beats RR even with all I could put into gear tweaking, but war is hardly lacking in damage as it is.
Entropy is about on par with Guillotine, though I haven't tried very hard to optimize gear sets for them, so it might be a bit better.

We also know that Last Stand is extremely good for gun, and Shattersoul likewise for staff. I haven't finished work on sword and club.

Overall, these new weaponskills *are* better than their level 75 equivalents.

[Neisan_Quetz]

EDIT2: Double checked sheet, adding in new VW gear put Upheaval barely ahead of Raging versus supposed Qilin stats. Assumed Brovura War with relic+2/Ogier's/Ares.

Meant to ask is Restraint nerf been added to sheet? it seems to be using the old formula and last time I changed it I fear I dropped the values too low, or the nerf was worse than I thought.

[Motenten]

Meant to ask is Restraint nerf been added to sheet? it seems to be using the old formula and last time I changed it I fear I dropped the values too low, or the nerf was worse than I thought.

Checked, and yes, it appears to be using the old formula. Fixed it and uploaded new version.

[IronPandemonium]

hi ironguy

hello flionheart

[Zerich]

Nice windower plugins Ophan

i lol when people reveal that they are 3rd pt users on the OFFICIAL forums

[Alkimi]

First off, I'd like to say I'm facepalming at my own thread. I admit i went off into the deep end and overreacted thinking Shoha was now stupidly more overpowered than everything other weapon skill after the Ukko/VS nerfs without doing more research.

Second, yes, the Screenshot in the first post is a lucky shot at 300% TP with a triple attack proc and favorable atmas. I just took the highest Screenshot I saw and assumed it was at 100% TP with favorable atmas. It was out of context, and i apologizing for demonizing the player's Screenshot.

So, I formally apologize for making this monstrosity of a thread and ask Square-Enix to start boosting the following weapon skills:

Every Relic Weapon Skill used with Relic Weapons- this should be priority #1

Every Mythic Weapon Skill used with Mythic Weapons

Empyrean Weapon Skills: Camlann's Torment, Rudra's Storm, Quietus, Torcleaver (it's a decent Weapon Skill but we wouldn't mind seeing a tweak or two)

Merit Weapon Skills: Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat, Shijin Spiral, Upheaval

Can't speak for the others but Realmrazer is actually pretty good despite the nerfs to it. It's still the best Club WS by a mile for non-WHMs and on par/sometimes better than Hexa in many cases.

[Aeyliea]

First off, I'd like to say I'm facepalming at my own thread. I admit i went off into the deep end and overreacted thinking Shoha was now stupidly more overpowered than everything other weapon skill after the Ukko/VS nerfs without doing more research.

Second, yes, the Screenshot in the first post is a lucky shot at 300% TP with a triple attack proc and favorable atmas. I just took the highest Screenshot I saw and assumed it was at 100% TP with favorable atmas. It was out of context, and i apologizing for demonizing the player's Screenshot.

So, I formally apologize for making this monstrosity of a thread and ask Square-Enix to start boosting the following weapon skills:

Every Relic Weapon Skill used with Relic Weapons- this should be priority #1

Every Mythic Weapon Skill used with Mythic Weapons

Empyrean Weapon Skills: Camlann's Torment, Rudra's Storm, Quietus, Torcleaver (it's a decent Weapon Skill but we wouldn't mind seeing a tweak or two)

Merit Weapon Skills: Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat, Shijin Spiral, Upheaval

Add Last Stand into that list there :D

[Fupafighter]

Rudra's does not need a boost lol.

[saevel]

Well for them to claim that is why they are doing WAR and MNK it is only fair for them to do SAM too. But I have learned when ever gimping SAM is in order. They go ahead and gimp every other DD job so it kind of defeats the purpose...

You do realize that Shoha isn't SAM's "best" WS right?

Stardiver will beat it when your at / near attack cap. SAM/WAR with Chaos / Min (or just Dia III), meat, zerk and stalwarts has no issue hitting that cap. Even without zerk (when it's down) SAM will be damn close. Take away the super buffs and Shoha starts to win again with the TP Bonus GKT.

As Moten has demonstrated, most of the other WS are good, they just require radically different gear sets then we're used to using.

[Fupafighter]

You do realize that Shoha isn't SAM's "best" WS right?

Stardiver will beat it when your at / near attack cap. SAM/WAR with Chaos / Min (or just Dia III), meat, zerk and stalwarts has no issue hitting that cap. Even without zerk (when it's down) SAM will be damn close. Take away the super buffs and Shoha starts to win again with the TP Bonus GKT.

As Moten has demonstrated, most of the other WS are good, they just require radically different gear sets then we're used to using.
If we wanted to use stardiver, We would go on freakin drg...noone cares about what a sam/war in near perfect buff situation can do with stardiver. And what about a sam/war actually buffed with shoha?... I recall cracking out 4k and 2.9k average when I have a good miser/chaos roll. Oh and aftermath level 3...

[saevel]

If we wanted to use stardiver, We would go on freakin drg...noone cares about what a sam/war in near perfect buff situation can do with stardiver. And what about a sam/war actually buffed with shoha?... I recall cracking out 4k and 2.9k average when I have a good miser/chaos roll. Oh and aftermath level 3...

Because we're talking what's broken and what's not, not what you can do inside Abyssea.

Moten's already run the math, Stalwarts + Zerk + food = better StarDiver on nearly all VWNM's. Chaos just makes it even better. Only aftermath that actually matters for SAM is the one from Mythic, the rest are overshadowed by WS spam.

Of course if you don't have the temp item KI's for stalwart / bravers / monarchs then we can understand.

[hiko]

Because we're talking what's broken and what's not, not what you can do inside Abyssea.

Moten's already run the math, Stalwarts + Zerk + food = better StarDiver on nearly all VWNM's. Chaos just makes it even better. Only aftermath that actually matters for SAM is the one from Mythic, the rest are overshadowed by WS spam.

Of course if you don't have the temp item KI's for stalwart / bravers / monarchs then we can understand.

what weapon did he used in his math because sam got no new polearm since lvl 87 ?

[Motenten]

what weapon did he used in his math because sam got no new polearm since lvl 87 ?

I used Draca Couse for comparing Stardiver with Shoha on sam. I think Shoha was using TP bonus GK, don't recall offhand (and it would have been the lvl 95 weapon when I did the comparison, I believe). Worked out that for cRatio of ~1.625 of higher, Stardiver was better; below 1.625 cRatio, Shoha was better. Capped cRatio on up to T3 VWNMs would be ~1.75 (they're around level 110). T6 VWNMs would have capped cRatio of ~1.25 (they're around level 120).

I can poke at it again at some point to see what it looks like now. There are other factors that probably need better consideration as well. Will get around to it later.

[Fupafighter]

Then why dont they just go on dragoon and spam stardiver. Why play sam if your going to use a damn polearm?...

[Motenten]

Because sam's Stardivers are stronger than drg's Stardivers, despite lower skill and weaker weapons. Overwhelm FTW. Oh, and ability to 4-hit a 480 delay polearm, while drg is stuck at a 6-hit (or 5-hit for the OAT).

[saevel]

SAM has been using Polearm since 2004. I know because I used to do penta-spam back before the first WS TP nerf.

Also SAM doesn't have to choose between 10% hasso haste and 15 sTP of /SAM vs Berserk and DA from /WAR, it gets them both. SAM's native Store TP, gear and overwhelm makes it into the perfect DD to spam WS's. If someone has unlocked 5/5 SD and has a Draca Couse, then there is no reason for them not to spam SD.

[Fupafighter]

Think you are missing the point lol. Your situations where your saying stardiver beats drg stardiver are false. Drg in VW will have rolls too...so they SHOULD be /war where 5-6 hit doesn't matter. And either will the extra 5% haste from hasso lol. And why would a person want to go on samurai and make a 90 masamune or amano just to use stardiver? lol.....

[saevel]

Umm ... you know Moten actually worked this all out. But you've got a record on here of ignoring the math and just claiming whatever you want.

[SpankWustler]

And why would a person want to go on samurai and make a 90 masamune or amano just to use stardiver?

Something not making sense, or being oddly disappointing, does not mean it is not true. Welcome to Final Fantasy XI.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Ageha > switch to draca couse obviously.

[Fupafighter]

Just don't see the purpose of leveling samurai to use a polearm lol. Idc if stardiver can do 2k damage more in the longrun than this or that. If you use sam to use stardiver, go play dragoon lol :)

[saevel]

Just don't see the purpose of leveling samurai to use a polearm lol. Idc if stardiver can do 2k damage more in the longrun than this or that. If you use sam to use stardiver, go play dragoon lol :)

That is completely your prerogative and nobody will fault you for doing so. We were merely pointing out that, on a super buffed SAM, SD would do more then Shoha. And by super buffed I mean zerk + food + stalwarts. Thus all the people crying about Shoha being "overpowered" are completely missing the real power house WS, SD. If SE were to nerf Shoha then SAM's would just switch to SD and absolutely nothing would change.

[Gojo]

Why nerf anything? I dont get why anyone would complain about someone in their party being able to do 5-8k in damage. Faster mobs faster xp. ;)

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Yeah, uh, we need you to nerf this too, and um...we would like you to have it done before the Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite nerfs go live on the game servers. That'll be greeaat.Don't worry, this is SE, they'll ninja nerf it.