Unlocking SMN potential in abyssea.

[jeffanddane]

Ok I have been testing stuff to see how SMN can be a better DD in abyssea ^_^ without all crazy nice emp weapons and relic stuff.

Heres what I have found and it works awesome for me.
Summoner / Sam yeah i know its weird but bear with meh!
Put any accuracy melee gear you have on tp shouldn't be a problem. I would suggest using atma of ultimate, MM, and RR. You can switch Ultimate out with the pandemonium atma i just don't have it ; ;. I have capped staff skill + merits 335 add 8 merits to that lol. Anyways i tested this and came back with amazing results!!! My Ifrit was dealing 3.5k+ and i was doing 700-1.5k. I suggest any smn to try this :D! Maybe not solo but with a group would be better lol.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If going for damage on a specific element use an element atma equal to that of the avatar, in Ifrit's case Smoldering Sky. Gardua and Pred claw with RR/MM/VV is also an option that does good damage, depends how badly you need refresh.

[jeffanddane]

Yeah that's a good route too ^_^

[Zad]

Well, ive been testing some atmas to see a good damage output. I usually use RR/Stout Arm/AaO for Predator Claws. But using RR/AaO/Apocalypse gives a more constant 4k+ dmg but does abit less dmg when the later crit procs. For Heavenly Strike, i use MM/Ultimate/Beyond which does arounds 4.6k. Just got my 2nd +2 and was gonna test it out this monday, but unfortunately couldnt due to the recent events. I really wanna get Hell's Guardian and replace it with MM for HS. SMN/SAM seems pretty good if your in a xp pt. Id prolly use Garuda for Predator Claws, VV/RR/Stout Arm and Full Swing spam. I think that combo could out parse most melee. I kinda wanna try it now lol.

[jeffanddane]

ZAD ITS SO AMAZING you gotta try smn/sam i out DDed quite a few melees lol. And if your already doing melee atmas you will be suprised on your dmg output lol. . . . If you are well geared or have full afv3+1 etc and a rdm in your party just do all 3 melee lol then watch yourself go . . . . .your like a crack DD with a staff XDDDDD

[Neisan_Quetz]

The +attack on Stout Arm doesn't really do much for avatars if you're already using enhances avatar attack pieces, Harvester would probably be a better option if only stacking Str, or Gnarled for a higher crit rate on Pred Claw.

[Crisco]

In an xp party I can see this being ridiculously effective, and I'm looking forward to trying it out when servers get back up. However, when outside of xp, solo or otherwise, I stick to the back-line and let the avatar do the work. I'm 3/5 af3+2, with the MAB staff+2. Heavenly strike does around 5k on trash mobs with MM/Ultimate/Beyond. I have a few Titlacauan(sp?) pops, for Undying atma (20% ice attack), in hopes it will replace MM and give an increase in dmg. I tried Baying Moon/Ultimate/Beyond and found out that it gave no more dmg than MM.

[Dallas]

Jeff, welcome to cliff's end. Make yourself a good melee staff and take the jump. I'll see you at the bottom! :D

Here's the problem with meleeing alongside the avatar: the avatar never got any better. The SMN did.

A fully armed SMN now outpaces the avatar by a long shot. Enmity shot through the roof. Keep at it. The more of us that hit the enmity wall, the sooner SE will install a door.

So here's my advice. While you are enjoying the golden age and melee beside your avatar, stop using all magical atma. Every hit will be stronger, not just the WS/BPs. You can add thousands of damage just from melee. Plus, with the best physical atma, your Spirit Takers will give you all the MP you need. It's so much mp at the end, you don't need *any* perp gear.

[jeffanddane]

Yeah i love doing this because alot of people are like WTF SMN/SAM IS AWESOME!!!!!!! Alot of summoners limit themself to there pet which if they went just a little outside of the box they would realize how awesome they really are. I mean even / war would be amazing i havent tried it but with all the double att% atmas and triple att atmas you would hit plenty enough times to keep on TPing mobs.

[Aviendsha]

SMN is a PET JOB everything you do should be to help the pet not you. You are nothing the pet is everything. What Jeff is saying is hey lets be DRG where the pet does decent and master does all the work. I have pure DD like drg to fight front line the fact is that SMN is a back line job. I like that you think outside the box but the fact remains that the avatar is the star of the job not the smn.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If it doesn't have dangerous AoE/auras you might as well melee, not like you're doing much else, otherwise yea stay out of range.

[Dallas]

SMN is a PET JOB everything you do should be to help the pet not you. You are nothing the pet is everything. What Jeff is saying is hey lets be DRG where the pet does decent and master does all the work. I have pure DD like drg to fight front line the fact is that SMN is a back line job. I like that you think outside the box but the fact remains that the avatar is the star of the job not the smn.
What about melee SMN is new? Spirit Taker has been an effective tool for MP recovery for years. 3 of 3 end-game staves have melee potential.

Yes, it's all about the pet, but melee works better than back line.

[Evilvivi]

Adding to what Dallas said, if you have time to get an EMpyrean Staff, that becomes an even more useful tool for MP recovery, esp. in Abyssea. You can SMN/SAM and have DD atmas on, and maintain MP off of the Empyrean WS. SMN might not be the best melee job, but it can be an effective melee job.

[Malamasala]

In the end of course, it should be a question about what is most fun, not most efficient. Unless you play FFXI as work.

[Korpg]

SMN is a PET JOB everything you do should be to help the pet not you. You are nothing the pet is everything. What Jeff is saying is hey lets be DRG where the pet does decent and master does all the work. I have pure DD like drg to fight front line the fact is that SMN is a back line job. I like that you think outside the box but the fact remains that the avatar is the star of the job not the smn.

only time a SMN should melee is when they are soloing NMs and want to proc blue during blunt time, or maybe that odd chance the red proc is earth crusher and you have the right subjob for it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Or you know, when the mob doesn't have dangerous AoE/auras/status effects, and with 45 seconds min on BP timer you're not doing much else.

[Evilvivi]

only time a SMN should melee is when they are soloing NMs and want to proc blue during blunt time, or maybe that odd chance the red proc is earth crusher and you have the right subjob for it.

You know Myrkr is not a blue or red proc? and it is a perfectly good reason for SMN to melee? Hell, if I had a Nirvana I would slap that on and spam the crap out of Garland of Bliss.

[Korpg]

You know Myrkr is not a blue or red proc? and it is a perfectly good reason for SMN to melee?

Why would you get a Hvergelmir anyway? Unless BLM/SCH/SMN are you only jobs, there are much better emp weapons out there for you to get. Even if BLM/SCH/SMN are your only jobs, Fay Crozier is a better staff for SMN when it has -3 perp cost on it. Why? Because avatars are the actual damage dealers, not the summoner.

SMNs are like PUPs, the pets do the damage, the SMNs direct the damage.


Hell, if I had a Nirvana I would slap that on and spam the crap out of Garland of Bliss.

You don't need a Nirvana for Garland of Bliss, but I see why you would spam *any* weaponskills on it.

Nirvana > Hvergelmir always.

[Malamasala]

It is all about maths. -Perp is a guaranteed saved MP. Spirit taker and myrkr is a TP rate based saved MP. If you are afraid of the mob, or it has high def and you have no myrkr, stick with -perp. Else you'll most likely do much better from WSing.

Just like a THF doesn't full time evasion gear, only when they want to avoid attacks. Wear what suits the situation.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Why would you get a Hvergelmir anyway? Unless BLM/SCH/SMN are you only jobs, there are much better emp weapons out there for you to get. Even if BLM/SCH/SMN are your only jobs, Fay Crozier is a better staff for SMN when it has -3 perp cost on it. Why? Because avatars are the actual damage dealers, not the summoner.

SMNs are like PUPs, the pets do the damage, the SMNs direct the damage.



You don't need a Nirvana for Garland of Bliss, but I see why you would spam *any* weaponskills on it.

Nirvana > Hvergelmir always.

How is Fay Crozier a better weapon while meleeing if you can melee and use myrkr to recover MP I don't even understand that one... Smn's best melee weapons are Nirvana and Hvelgirmir (although for purely meleeing, that is, mp isn't an issue, Hvelgirmir is behind due to Myrkr dealing no damage and at 300% Nirvana gives approximately 45% OaT effect to both Smn and Avatar), there isn't better melee weapons for Smn aside from Claustum due to its higher base damage compared to the other to, not to mention the added Refresh effect on GoT and the 25% WS dmg boost at level 90.

Your Pup comparison is flawed because the Pup either did as much damage as the Puppet on melee friendly mobs, or post level cap easily outdamages it.

[Garota]

Unlocking my potential... Well it hasn't been much of dealing damage as of recently. I just felt like tossing on Ducal Guard along with Vicissitude to go with my Minikin Monstrosity and it's been going great. Soloing NMs although long at time feels rewarding when I have time to spare and want to see what these atmas are capable of.

Started off going back to pay back a visit to Bakka, although I already have the Goetia Chain, I promised a friend he could have it. Personally preferred to use Ifrit for his Inferno Howl. Ifrit's HP never seemed to drop bellow 95%. Decided to play with Tonberry Lieje as well, tossed a Leviathan at it and went just as well. Managed to get his key item and I already had his belt.

Ok so I decide to play with Iron Giants, I've always enjoyed fighting these. Made use of Leviathan for his Spring Water and water elemental superiority over fire. Same atmas, I'd knock out anywhere between 3% to 6% per Grand Fall, offered some LS buddies to come out for free accessories since I was fighting the Iron Giants anyway. For Misareaux's Severer, some buddies showed up and well... They tended to die... Just seems more reliable to not have to cure bomb somebody. An avatar healing itself and dropping damage doesn't always seem to keep hate off of an actual player, at least not with the current atma combination. Did give away 3 SMN pendants and 3 BLM capes, all PUP belts dropped to the floor... I did get a Taranis's Harness though! So hell, decided to take on Pulverizer, soloed Abyssic Cluster with no problem, some buddies there for Red !! then off to Observer, tougher fight to tank as SMN due to hate reset. Still managed to kill it. All goes well til the NIN and WAR draw hate, nevertheless manageable, no Bustle Dirs even with Blue !!. Only big problem soloing Iron Giants is getting your avatar's bloodpact stunned, terrorized or amnesiad which could lead to a longer fight. My personal favorite fight was duoing an Iron Giant with another SMN, his avatar dealt damage and died and mine kept hate and main tanked.

So I got bored yet again and decided to solo build a Rani pop, after two long fights with Smiter and Long-Barreled Chariot, I luckily managed to get key items with no Red !!. So here's the deal boys and girls... I'm thinking about unlocking my SMN's potential in another manner... I'm heavily considering brewing her as SMN, simple plan of popping her, popping a Brew, Megalixir, Odin and a wave of Garland of Blisses. Has anybody here tried something similar yet? If so do share your experience.

[Papesse]

Save your 2H for Alexander to be protected from her Charm and Amnesia attacks. Odin, like Atonement or Nether Blast does almost nothing on NMs in Abyssea anyway.

Beyond/Griffon's Claw/Ultimate for Garland of Bliss and don't forget your Ascetic potion.

[Korpg]

How is Fay Crozier a better weapon while meleeing if you can melee and use myrkr to recover MP I don't even understand that one... Smn's best melee weapons are Nirvana and Hvelgirmir (although for purely meleeing, that is, mp isn't an issue, Hvelgirmir is behind due to Myrkr dealing no damage and at 300% Nirvana gives approximately 45% OaT effect to both Smn and Avatar), there isn't better melee weapons for Smn aside from Claustum due to its higher base damage compared to the other to, not to mention the added Refresh effect on GoT and the 25% WS dmg boost at level 90.

Your Pup comparison is flawed because the Pup either did as much damage as the Puppet on melee friendly mobs, or post level cap easily outdamages it.
It is a better weapon because you don't need the MP if you pack on avatar perp gear. A summoner with good staff skill won't miss often on stuff in Abyssea anyway. So what's keeping you from using Spirit Taker for MP recover?

If you use a Fay Crozier and use Garland of Bliss, you would do more damage over time than using a Hvelgirmir and using Myrkr. But even you have admitted that.

My point is that it is not the summoner who does the majority of the damage, it is the avatar. As for your retort on PUP, only an equipped PUP using a WHM frame would do more damage than its automation. I have seen many times before that the automation doing more damage than the master. But then again, I am not a puppetmaster, you might for all I know.

If you are going to get a good weapon, get Nirvana. It is much better than Hvergelmir and you don't need the Refresh from GoT if you gear up right.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Yea inside if the master is losing to the auto they're doing something horribly wrong. Outside unless the master was not meleeing and only nuking from when I parsed it their damage was about equal aside from rng frame on birds in which case the puppet was getting piercing bonus.

There isn't anything stopping you from using Garland with Hvelgirmir, not to mention Hvelgirmir is still the better melee weapon than Fay. You only need to Myrkr to recover mp, as with Twashtar iirc you're better off using your most damaging WS rather than a weaker one and relying on the ODD effect.

Agreed Nirvana with 300% TP opening Garland is probably the best melee weapon for smn period.

[Evilvivi]

Ok, if you are meleeing in SMN you shouldnt have much perp- gear on and Myrkr is a better MP recovery tool than Spirit Taker plus the aftermath effect. Of course Nirvana is outright better, but we've already come to that conclusion.

As for PUP, I knew and know PUPs that were out damaging entire LSs, including their own automaton, all frames. Inside abyssea with Stringing Pummel and atma a PUP should be at worst doing the same damage as their automaton.

[Garota]

Went ahead and did it... Was bored and hoping for an Epona's Ring Went as SMN/BLM, had to settle for whichever atmas I had at the time, Ultimate, Holy Mountain and Baying Moon. Felt like trying Zantetsuken which only did 4.5k damage, each Garland of Bliss hit for 14,939. I wore as much MAB & MND gear that I could find in my inventory for other mage jobs. Sadly the Blue !! was hand-to-hand. I'll try building another Rani st some other time if I ever get bored enough again.

[Malamasala]

In theory you should do more damage as /WHM and Cataclysm. Unless of course Rani is darkness resistant. I believe the base damage of the new WS outweighs the MAB from /BLM, but I have not tested it.

[Kaych]

only time a SMN should melee is when they are soloing NMs and want to proc blue during blunt time, or maybe that odd chance the red proc is earth crusher and you have the right subjob for it.

Lol... just lol >_>

If you mele + WS, thats Avatar dammage + Summoner dammage. Why people cant see that this is more effective than standing in back line "watcing", I just dont understand o.o

The only time I dont mele as a SMN (or as a WHM or RDM) is when there is a AoE bad enough to oneshot me^_-

And to all of you who say "But, MP, butbut..". That has never been a problem for me, inside or outside of Abyssea.

Dont judge others just cos you dont play like them^_-

[Dallas]

Why people cant see that this is more effective than standing in back line "watcing", I just dont understand o.o

More than likely, we are simply witnessing the evolution of the "backup healer."

[Korpg]

Lol... just lol >_>

If you mele + WS, thats Avatar dammage + Summoner dammage. Why people cant see that this is more effective than standing in back line "watcing", I just dont understand o.o

The only time I dont mele as a SMN (or as a WHM or RDM) is when there is a AoE bad enough to oneshot me^_-

And to all of you who say "But, MP, butbut..". That has never been a problem for me, inside or outside of Abyssea.

Dont judge others just cos you dont play like them^_-

There is a trade off in meleeing. Its called feeding the mob TP.

Are you really doing enough damage to offset the TP feed you give to the mob by whacking on it? More TP means more higher damaging moves means more likely your avatar will die. IF your avatar is about to die, what then? Can you run away and shed enmity enough to summon and have the new avatar take hate off of you?

I used to melee as a SMN while my avatar tanked, but then I learned that sometimes, if something goes wrong, and you have to resummon quickly, you gained way too much hate (because the mob hasn't been beating on you and you accumulated too much hate for one BP to take away) and die because of it.

I find that the extra minute it takes to kill a mob is much better than the chances of a damaging back-to-back TP move that ends up doing too much damage and gets me killed.

[Dallas]

Name one ability SMN has that is "Back Line," and I will tell you what job you have as a subjob. Every other "pet job" fights alongside their pet. You had to contrive usefulness in the back line, you were built for DD.

[Cett]

Back at 75, one of the most efficient ways to live and solo the original avatars was to have 5/5 elemental avatar perp merited. Then you simply summon them let them engage the avatar on their own, and letting them cast. With this set up you would have the same perpetuation as an Avatar, however you wouldn't lose the MP you would if you had to bloodpact. Since the only way to pull this off without screwing yourself over is to not get hate, melee'ing would be out of the question. In fact, anything that isn't a normal quality mob that maintains some relevance in being defeated is best defeated through these methods (To clarify: I'm speaking specifically to the minimization of enmity on yourself).

@ Dallas:
You've shown time and time again through the forums that you strongly support melee smn strategies, thats cool if what you do in the game allows you to pull this off. However, I will argue that your use of "other pet jobs melee'ing along side their pets" is a very weak argument and shouldn't be used to justify why you should be melee'ing.

By all means keep doing it, but come up with a better reason than "well they're doing it so I should be too because I am similar to them". Numbers speak louder than words friend.

Summoner has less hp, defensive abilities/traits/stats and offensive stats (save for int) than DRG, BST, or PUP.

Drg can't Melee without their pets engaging given the presence of their pet.
Pup, well no comment... (their pet won't always "fight" with them as opposed to cure them :P )

Beast is your strongest argument however. Beast has the same enmity mitigation strategies that summoner has, I would go as far as to say that they are the opposite side of the same coin when matched against summoner.

Except, Summoner is the "magical" image of a beastmaster who are 95% physical based.

Every job has a level of versatility and use, finding it is important. If all you do is melee with your pet and focus on yourself, you mimimize the ability to support others who may have even more potential than yourself. I've never seen you actually play the job, nor you me. Though from your posts, melee is all I see you speak of which can lead me and others to assume that is all you wish to do. Construct a stronger argument and prove us wrong, explain what you do and how/why you do it. If you want to make the difference prove that it is a superior method in damage optimization in the long run, don't just throw out opinion and say you're just like others!

XD

[Malamasala]

There is a trade off in meleeing. Its called feeding the mob TP.


Did you ever think that one through before perpetuating that myth? If TP feed was bad, haste would be the worst spell in the game since it increases TP feed.

There are of course monsters you want to watch TP feed on. Fafnir for example is annoying with wing spam. Kirin on the other hand has 100% TP constantly and you could feed him any amount you want. (Though I'd not suggest SMN melee on kirin anyway)

Simply put, your argument carry no weight in almost the whole game.


If you want to make the difference prove that it is a superior method in damage optimization in the long run, don't just throw out opinion and say you're just like others!

What are we even trying to argue here? If you are in a 5 BLM party, the obviously best way to play is Diabolos + favor and toss out Dream Shroud. But that doesn't mean it is the best way to play SMN always.

Melee is what you are supposed to do every single time when you would otherwise just be idling in the back and casting the rare cure spell. Except when your life is in danger of course. Refusing to melee just because you think you are a mage is how poor players play. Using your full potential means adapting to the situation and minimizing the idle time.

[Dallas]

Summoner has less hp, defensive abilities/traits/stats and offensive stats (save for int) than DRG, BST, or PUP.

You are NOT getting hit by anything but AOE, and you *should* be using AOE cures from Garuda. If you used the best Atma setup (physical), your pettp converts into 500+ hp AOE cures. These cures only work at POINT BLANK RANGE, meaning you better be in melee range.

As far as I know, not a single SMN besides me has complained about the lack of hate tools for SMN. Your argument is worthless without the skill to draw hate off your pet. Your pet is one of the best defensive tanks in game.

BTW, I've been meleeing for what, 5 years now? Why in the world do you think you can convince me I can't do it? All the numbers you are looking for exist. Go find them.

[Cett]

You are NOT getting hit by anything but AOE, and you *should* be using AOE cures from Garuda. If you used the best Atma setup (physical), your pettp converts into 500+ hp AOE cures. These cures only work at POINT BLANK RANGE, meaning you better be in melee range.

As far as I know, not a single SMN besides me has complained about the lack of hate tools for SMN. Your argument is worthless without the skill to draw hate off your pet. Your pet is one of the best defensive tanks in game.

BTW, I've been meleeing for what, 5 years now? Why in the world do you think you can convince me I can't do it? All the numbers you are looking for exist. Go find them.

Blood pacting along with melee, and summoning all provide cumulative amounts of enmity. Your pet can only draw hate off you during blood pacts and gradually loses hate after each hit. You are also building up your enmity through melee but clearly not enough to pull off your pet immediately.

In my experience using the emp weapon, with haste , double marches, /sam and some haste gear with DD atma's :P (i can have fun but not gonna use this shit in groups) , I can pull hate off garuda in less than 5 attack cycles following a predator claw.

You've been accusing me of never meleeing and idling blah blah blah , well all I've asked for from you is your own initiative to share with the community what you find to be productive strategies using a job we apparantly care about. I won't ever choose DD atma's vs Magic atma's for fighting NM's that lack resistance to any form of magic. And I don't idle with 300 tp if my mp is full, i'll run in and weapon skill garland which will have a positive effect on the other DD's actually t2t'ing the said NM.

Regardless of this maybe your play style differs due to the number of people you play with, I for example have 1 whm in a ls of 20+ .. She also multi boxes most of the time. I'll help cure because well.. I enjoy winning, as much as i enjoy playing summoner. :P

And perhaps I don't have this skill you mentioned because I tried goign full melee style vs Orthrus, guess what happened! Even with pet buffs, and full shell/protect/marches etc , Archeon flame x2 took me out because summoner shouldn't be that close to high tier NM's :P . The 1 White mage can't be responsible for keeping me alive due to the fact that the tanks require attention first XD .

Btw, I'm still just trying to get you to prove something since you were wayyyyy off on the atma of azure stuff :P That was silly to believe.

[Dallas]

Atma of the Azure? (45/35 - 1)*(1/3)<10% increase wasting 1 atma slot. I did crazy easy maths and realized it sucked. Sea Daughter maths sucked even more.

There you go! Proof. Proof I do not need to waste my time.

Congratulations, you have a bad LS and killed yourself on AOE. Learn from your mistakes and level WHM. They need it.

[Papesse]

Informations about Azure Sky are partially false. Azure Sky can not bypass the 45 seconds cap. With Accord Hat/Caller's Earring/Yinyang Robe/Summoner's Bracers +2/Tiresia's Cape/Atma I'm still at 45 seconds. Removing Accord Hat/Yinyang Robe/Summoner's Bracers +2 gives me 45 seconds also. A basic BP delay -10 with nothing special.

[Korpg]

Name one ability SMN has that is "Back Line," and I will tell you what job you have as a subjob.

Megalith Throw
Nether Blast
Merited BP:75
Holy Mist
Lunar Bay
Night Terror
Lunar Cry
Lunar Roar
Healing Ruby I, not II


I could add the Tier II and Tier IV spells, but those are just useless for SMN anyway.

All of these don't require your avatar to be near the mob, so technically they are all "Back Line" abilities.

Now, what job do I have as a subjob?

[Dallas]

Megalith Throw
Nether Blast
Merited BP:75
Holy Mist
Lunar Bay
Night Terror
Lunar Cry
Lunar Roar
Healing Ruby I, not II


I could add the Tier II and Tier IV spells, but those are just useless for SMN anyway.

All of these don't require your avatar to be near the mob, so technically they are all "Back Line" abilities.

Now, what job do I have as a subjob?

How do you get pettp? What in the world are you healing in the back line with no one in range?

That leaves Megalith Throw. If that's your main pact, I know your sub. You are subbing /BLM for Fire II.


Informations about Azure Sky are partially false. Azure Sky can not bypass the 45 seconds cap. With Accord Hat/Caller's Earring/Yinyang Robe/Summoner's Bracers +2/Tiresia's Cape/Atma I'm still at 45 seconds. Removing Accord Hat/Yinyang Robe/Summoner's Bracers +2 gives me 45 seconds also. A basic BP delay -10 with nothing special.

It was always irrelevant. The "best case" was always less than 1/4 as powerful as any physical atma. This thread is about potential, and that atma never had any.

[Korpg]

How do you get pettp? What in the world are you healing in the back line with no one in range?

That leaves Megalith Throw. If that's your main pact, I know your sub. You are subbing /BLM for Fire II.


Wrong.

You can walk up to the person and use Healing Ruby (both of them), you don't HAVE to attack the mob to use the blood pacts.

Same goes for merited BPs. Except you can be even further away from the mob to use it, you never have to engage or sic the avatar on the mob to use these.

For TP, guess you never heard of this nice little item called "Caller's Pendant"

Also, I never use /BLM for SMN, its either /WHM, /RDM, or /SCH. /BLM is useless (what am I going to do, nuke the mob to death?).

Point being, you never have to engage the monster, you can sit back and just Blood Pact away. Even then, you can use atmas that give you (and your pet) Regain. But outside of Abyssea, you can still use Caller's Pendant (a very easy NM to solo as SMN also btw, you should not have an excuse to not have it).

[Dallas]

Amazing, you have to RUN UP TO THE FRONT LINE to use a BACK LINE ability. Let's see, you spent several seconds summoning Carby, waiting for him to find you, then spent several seconds runnning, waited for pathing again, used your BP, and healed for ZERO because the RDM casted Curaga 2 at 50% fast cast for less MP.

While you do that, I'll have Garuda out, meleeing for pettp, and have an instant BP ready ALREADY IN RANGE. Playing SMN is hard, it's a good thing you can always sub WHM and heal people AMIRITE?

[Cett]

Amazing, you have to RUN UP TO THE FRONT LINE to use a BACK LINE ability. Let's see, you spent several seconds summoning Carby, waiting for him to find you, then spent several seconds runnning, waited for pathing again, used your BP, and healed for ZERO because the RDM casted Curaga 2 at 50% fast cast for less MP.

While you do that, I'll have Garuda out, meleeing for pettp, and have an instant BP ready ALREADY IN RANGE. Playing SMN is hard, it's a good thing you can always sub WHM and heal people AMIRITE?

So when you have your awesome 45 second down time and AOE dmg kills your pet causing u to resummon on the front line then you die to more aoe, what do u do with /sam ? I'm certain you prolly won't have reraise on :P

Your scenario's are outrageous and borderline unnatural events. It is very possible for you or your pet to die in range of any NM that utilizes aoe abilities, and what about enfeebles? Without /whm you'll be pretty handicap from paralysis unless you chance Spring water and happen to have levi out at the time.

Just how far away from the mob do you have to be to be a back line job anyway ? Cause melee distance is usually 3 ~5 yalms , 9 yalms max for huge targets. Aoe's can hit up to 10~15' in most cases, and max cure distance is 20 yalms. Summoner's max distance on any bloodpact from a target is 15 ~16'ish.

[Korpg]

Amazing, you have to RUN UP TO THE FRONT LINE to use a BACK LINE ability. Let's see, you spent several seconds summoning Carby, waiting for him to find you, then spent several seconds runnning, waited for pathing again, used your BP, and healed for ZERO because the RDM casted Curaga 2 at 50% fast cast for less MP.

While you do that, I'll have Garuda out, meleeing for pettp, and have an instant BP ready ALREADY IN RANGE. Playing SMN is hard, it's a good thing you can always sub WHM and heal people AMIRITE?

k, I might use Carbuncle if I'm fighting a mob that is weak against light damage only (no other magical damage weakness, fully resisted on all other damage, you know the mobs I'm talking about I guess) I would have done what you said.

But, for everything else, I'm not a backup healer. I and my friends and shellmates know that SMN is not a good healer. Subpar RDM at best, but even then, RDMs aren't really main healers anymore either.

See, when I do SMN, I keep my avatar of choice out, wait until BP:R is up, BP, and let the damage ensue. You don't have to have the avatar melee to do some good damage (considering you have Caller's Pendant and/or regain atmas plus merited BPs).

See, if you can think about your job, instead of trying to be completely different to the point that you cause more harm than good, you might succeed. Besides, aren't you trying to melee with your Emp staff at the same time so you and your avatar does more damage than just having your avatar out meleeing? Please, correct me if I'm wrong that you don't do that.

[Dallas]

You don't have to have the avatar melee to do some good damage

You don't have to play SMN to its potential. Very true. There are people who are mediocre in every job. All I am doing is making sure everyone else knows the difference.

Cett, other DD use a reraise atma. Get to know some real DD.

[Korpg]

You don't have to play SMN to its potential. Very true. There are people who are mediocre in every job. All I am doing is making sure everyone else knows the difference.

Cett, other DD use a reraise atma. Get to know some real DD.

Sure, feed TP to the mob that does some damaging AoEs to the alliance, that will really get you invited for that fight again.

I mean, BP:Rs really give a lot of TP to the mob each time you cast it *sarcasm*

If you want to do it your way, by all means go ahead and do it. If you cause a few wipes because you were feeding the mob too much TP by both having your avatar and yourself meleeing, then go ahead. I'm not here to judge your style of play. That is your group's decision to make.

As for the whole "Get to know some real DD" comment, you know.....thats like shooting yourself in the foot because you saw something move near your feet.

[Vazerus]

I didn't have a chance to read the entire thread, but is this "melee smn" debate against NM or EXP targets?

Exp: Meleeing is fine, and you should probably do it. It's not like they are any threat to the alliance anyway, unless it's a doll using Meltdown... in which case a BLU or BLM better have stunned it or /kick.

NMs: Situational, but the pro-meleers are stating (from what I saw) that they would only do it it didn't have big AoE TP moves. I would expand that to "don't melee when there are damaging AoE's and/or lots of bad TP moves." Some NMs, as a tank, I wouldn't give a damn if people fed it TP. Harder NMs I pretty much order DD in general to stay off except WS, which would include SMN.

It's not hard to differentiate between when you can and cannot melee. If a SMN has the gear to melee in a situation where it is acceptable to, by all means kill the mob faster and keep your MP up with Spirit Taker/Hgingerdingawjonfajiosndf's new ws.

TL;DR: Korpg is right only when targets shouldn't be fed TP, but for 98% of the game that doesn't matter. Melee your hearts out on lesser NMs/EXP.

-If this post doesn't make sense it's because I'm on the brink of sleepiness, but the argument here seems a little silly.

[Dallas]

Even if you are only going in to WS with full 100% TP, you should still be meleeing on a nearby mob. Every other job does it, but for some reason SMN feel like it's their duty to suck.

[Korpg]

TL;DR: Korpg is right only when targets shouldn't be fed TP, but for 98% of the game that doesn't matter. Melee your hearts out on lesser NMs/EXP.

Actually, those type of NMs are the only ones I wouldn't feed TP to as a SMN. That and those who I am soloing on. Unless I want to try to proc blue.

Dallas wants to melee everything, or at least sounds like he wants to melee everything.

[Korpg]

Even if you are only going in to WS with full 100% TP, you should still be meleeing on a nearby mob. Every other job does it, but for some reason SMN feel like it's their duty to suck.

Can you solo an Even Match or higher mob just by yourself (in other words, while your avatar is busy TPing on the NM your group is currently fighting). Not everyone is going to want to fight the same mob as you, so don't expect others to come fight your mob for you.

Heck, DC and EP mobs might be a challange, SMNs have the defense of a sponge.

[Malamasala]

If you want to do it your way, by all means go ahead and do it. If you cause a few wipes because you were feeding the mob too much TP by both having your avatar and yourself meleeing, then go ahead. I'm not here to judge your style of play. That is your group's decision to make.

You know, if people were that afraid of TP, the ONLY parties you would see would be NIN + WHM duos. Adding any other job would make it "spam AOE moves" according to paranoid people.

I won't deny there are NMs like this, but it is roughly one per zone.

[Dallas]

Not everyone is going to want to fight the same mob as you, so don't expect others to come fight your mob for you.

If you are fighting a mob that you don't want to feed TP to, why do you assume that everyone is feeding that NM tp but the SMN? If the mob sucks that much, EVERYONE is TPing on the same mob as me.

[Kaych]

The "feeding TP"-comments are so old and should be put away and never be reused^_-

[Malamasala]

I still think everyone should use slow gear so they feed TP slower.

[jonrambo]

I love the smn/sam concept so guess its time to go play with it and parse some stats,but i do agree we have always been seen as back line job , or at the very worst the pseudo tank/dd because the main one has fallen over and you have to kite the mob lol.so i fancy a change" so where is me big stick?"