Victory smite nerf [dev1064] [Archive]

Zhronne

12-21-2011, 09:21 PM

Being as stringing pummel was already better, I fail to see this as a lool pup nerf.
^ this.

Ukko's nerf is only right. I mean... that WS gets +80% crit at 300TP, one may wonder what the hell SE were smoking when they decided stats for Ukko.
Nerfing it a bit means making so it's not as broken as now, it doesn't mean to make Ukko's useless... it should be a reasonable nerf, not too big not too small.
One could argue about nerfing it one year too late, and I would agree with that. If you let so much time pass before you acknowledge something is "seriously broken" then you might as well leave things as they are and try to address the issue in some other way.

As for Victory Smite I'm not sure. I mean, the WS is surely brilliant and one of the best, probably the second best after Ukko's (but there still is a big difference between Ukko and Vsmite...), but it shows its limits when outside Abyssea. On tough stuff it's not really that awesome unless you got Impetus up and with a decent amount charged up.
I don't know Vsmite's exact TP>Crit values, but I always thought it was assumed to have the same ones as Blade: Hi?
That would mean 100%>15%crit, 200%>20%crit, 300>25%crit.
Doesn't seem particularly unbalanced to me.
If they want to nerf Vsmite I hope the % of the nerf won't be bigger than 5%, so to say 10%>15%>20% for 100, 200 and 300 TP respectively.

What really annoys me about this is not the nerf itself, but rather:
1) the fact this comes way too late
2) the fact I had already ruled Shijin Spiral out in favour of other WSs, now I'm back to square one because Shijin Spiral is definitely becoming the best MNK WS, even for people with Verethragna, and I really don't like the idea of gathering countless +DEX gear, stressing my limited inventory space even more and forcing me to give up one of the 3 WSs I learned. But yeah, Shijin and Vsmite are so close atm (outside Abyssea) that even a 1% nerf would make Shijin win over Vsmite, and we all know it won't be just 1%. Sigh...

MarkovChain

12-21-2011, 09:57 PM

Being as stringing pummel was already better, I fail to see this as a lool pup nerf.

Random statement is random ? Victory smite is much better than stringing pummel.

Let's say you got 170str on VS and SP

Global WSD - without da/ta
VS=6.35*( floor(430*0.11)+3+12+39+ 0.85*(0.6*150) )=1191.89500
SP=5.85*( floor(430*0.11)+3+12+39+ 0.85*(0.32*150)+0.32*80 )=1011.114000
Globald WSD wih 21%DA 3% TA
VS=(3.35*(1+0.03+(1-0.03)*0.21)+3)*( floor(430*0.11)+3+12+39+ 0.85*(0.6*170) )=1338.844391
SP=(1.85*(1+0.03+(1-0.03)*0.21)+4)*( floor(430*0.11)+3+12+39+ 0.85*(0.32*170)+0.32*80 )=1085.840510

Do you still fail to see why it's a PUP nerf ? Shijin is now probably better for monk only cos they can use spharai. The only option for pup is to use the mythic which is not better than empy anyway !

xbobx

12-21-2011, 10:28 PM

Pummel is more or less on par with VS, Shijin is more or less on par if not better then Pummel outside of Abyessa. This is probably SE's stupid response to peoples negative comments to the new weaponskills.

When people don't want upgrade, nerf the better ws .

Zhronne

12-21-2011, 10:33 PM

Random statement is random ? Victory smite is much better than stringing pummel.
I'm allergic to math so I don't want to claim anything, but the same thing was discussed a while ago on PUP forums and you can read it HERE (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14429-Anyone-try-Apoc-RR-SS?p=205704&viewfull=1#post205704)
There result were that if not accounting for aftermath, Stringing Pummel should be slightly better than Vsmite, altough the difference wasn't particularly noticeable.

And I still don't get what you're trying to say with your "lolpupnerf".
It's a nerf to Victory Smite, not to MNK and not to PUP.
The only thing that's going to change is the current balance between Shijin Spiral and the other two WSs.
Currently Shijin Spiral was very close to Vsmite, slightly behind I'd say, not worth for Verethragna users, but worth for Spharai users since they don't get Vsmite and Final Heaven sux balls.
Still, Shijin was very close to Vsmite even for Vere users.
If they're nerfing Vsmite, it means that the small gap between Shijin and Vsmite will close, and the first will be able to get ahead of the second in every possible situation (outside of Aby), even for Verethragna users.

Which brings us to the point that after this nerf *every monk* will be expected to get and use Shijin Spiral in place of any other WS, period.

I still don't get how all of this relates to what you were attempting to say about PUP.

Atoreis

12-21-2011, 11:18 PM

I'm allergic to math so I don't want to claim anything, but the same thing was discussed a while ago on PUP forums and you can read it HERE (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14429-Anyone-try-Apoc-RR-SS?p=205704&viewfull=1#post205704)
There result were that if not accounting for aftermath, Stringing Pummel should be slightly better than Vsmite, altough the difference wasn't particularly noticeable.

And I still don't get what you're trying to say with your "lolpupnerf".
It's a nerf to Victory Smite, not to MNK and not to PUP.
The only thing that's going to change is the current balance between Shijin Spiral and the other two WSs.
Currently Shijin Spiral was very close to Vsmite, slightly behind I'd say, not worth for Verethragna users, but worth for Spharai users since they don't get Vsmite and Final Heaven sux balls.
Still, Shijin was very close to Vsmite even for Vere users.
If they're nerfing Vsmite, it means that the small gap between Shijin and Vsmite will close, and the first will be able to get ahead of the second in every possible situation (outside of Aby), even for Verethragna users.

Which brings us to the point that after this nerf *every monk* will be expected to get and use Shijin Spiral in place of any other WS, period.

I still don't get how all of this relates to what you were attempting to say about PUP.

I can explain this to you.
He has Spharai, he trying to be smart and make fun with "Verethragna only" mnks because they are not true MNKs with both weapons like he is.

Spiritreaver

12-21-2011, 11:37 PM

From the "testing in progress" section

lool PUP nerf.

As said, your flat wrong.

Personally i'm much more concerned about my MNK after hearing this news.

Dfoley

12-21-2011, 11:50 PM

I can explain this to you.
He has Spharai, he trying to be smart and make fun with "Verethragna only" mnks because they are not true MNKs with both weapons like he is.

I see, one of those lol-oldschoolers who qq'ed VS was better than their Final Heaven?

If nothing else, this is a monk nerf way more than a pup, because it makes SP even better than VS instead of just marginally better (read old threads instead of your lol-math), which means mnks have to use SS / Assurans fist, while pups can continue using a ws that was already better then the monk available ones. Not to mention pups have access to SS as well.

How do you not see this a monk nerf WAY more than a PUP?

MarkovChain

12-21-2011, 11:51 PM

I'm allergic to math so I don't want to claim anything, but the same thing was discussed a while ago on PUP forums and you can read it HERE (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/14429-Anyone-try-Apoc-RR-SS?p=205704&viewfull=1#post205704)
There result were that if not accounting for aftermath, Stringing Pummel should be slightly better than Vsmite, altough the difference wasn't particularly noticeable.

And I still don't get what you're trying to say with your "lolpupnerf".
It's a nerf to Victory Smite, not to MNK and not to PUP.
The only thing that's going to change is the current balance between Shijin Spiral and the other two WSs.
Currently Shijin Spiral was very close to Vsmite, slightly behind I'd say, not worth for Verethragna users, but worth for Spharai users since they don't get Vsmite and Final Heaven sux balls.
Still, Shijin was very close to Vsmite even for Vere users.
If they're nerfing Vsmite, it means that the small gap between Shijin and Vsmite will close, and the first will be able to get ahead of the second in every possible situation (outside of Aby), even for Verethragna users.

Which brings us to the point that after this nerf *every monk* will be expected to get and use Shijin Spiral in place of any other WS, period.

I still don't get how all of this relates to what you were attempting to say about PUP.

Verethragna is still best used with victory smite, stop with you false assumptions. ODD is what makes it worth it. If your best weapon is verethragna, nothing happened wether you are monk or pup, however, with dynamis II, and level increase, aspharai becomes a realistic option that is only given to monk, and due to Shijin Spiral study, it's clear that this WS only doesn't suck with spharai. In other word :

prior to today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS
today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS with -10% damage

prior to today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS
today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS with -0% damage

It's a PUP nerf.

MarkovChain

12-21-2011, 11:56 PM

(read old threads instead of your lol-math)

It's not math it's common sense. FTP are mod are knows for years.

At lleast I'm not suggestiing MNKs to use asuran fists with vere like you do... This nerf is at worst -10% damage on vere which still let it surpass stringing pummel witout accounting for ODD. If you account for ODD then vere is still better used with VS.

MarkovChain

12-21-2011, 11:58 PM

I can explain this to you.
He has Spharai, he trying to be smart and make fun with "Verethragna only" mnks because they are not true MNKs with both weapons like he is.

I've never seen you math out anything beside through parses. do it. Let's have fun.

Spiritreaver

12-22-2011, 12:00 AM

Verethragna is still best used with victory smite, stop with you false assumptions. ODD is what makes it worth it. If your best weapon is verethragna, nothing happened wether you are monk or pup, however, with dynamis II, and level increase, aspharai becomes a realistic option that is only given to monk, and due to Shijin Spiral study, it's clear that this WS only doesn't suck with spharai. In other word :

prior to today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS
today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS with -10% damage

prior to today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS
today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS with -0% damage

It's a PUP nerf.

For it to be a PUP specific nerf, Stringing Pummel would needs be nerfed.

And as my SPs were more or lese equal to my Victory Smites on PUP, and after this VS change i'm sure SP will beat VS on PUP, i still am not seeing this PUP specific nerf.

Arcon

12-22-2011, 12:05 AM

prior to today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS
today : best PUP weapon and WS is verethragna/VS with -10% damage

prior to today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS
today : best MNK weapon and WS is spharai/SS with -0% damage

It's a PUP nerf.

Prior to today: Best DD are neither MNK nor PUP
Today: Best DD are neither MNK nor PUP

Hence, by Pchan logic, this is not a nerf at all, because it didn't affect the best DD anyway. So why be MNK or PUP if you wanna DD?

Zhronne

12-22-2011, 12:05 AM

I can explain this to you.
He has Spharai, he trying to be smart and make fun with "Verethragna only" mnks because they are not true MNKs with both weapons like he is.
Ah lol
Waiting for someone with Glanzfaust to make fun of him then :P
back IT now

Q_Q I don't wanna merit Shijin spiral!

@Dfoley
Yeah my point exactely. If anything Stringing Pummel will just become even better since the small gap between it and Vsmite will increase.

Atoreis

12-22-2011, 12:07 AM

I've never seen you math out anything beside through parses. do it. Let's have fun.

You misunderstood me.
I dont think you are wrong about VS vs SS or VS vs SP. I just explained him how you see this situation. Instead of being sad that your 95Veret is being nerfed for situation where you would use it you are rather glad because so many MNKs are now worse than you by not having Spharai aka you feel more elitist.

Also by saying its only pup nerf you screaming "I have Spharai!" and smile to yourself that you are a little special. How do I know all this? Because I am the same and I understand you. Yes Im guilty I felt elitist with my 95 ukon and they nerfing my toy.

Francisco

12-22-2011, 12:39 AM

Dammit, does this mean I need to level BST and start farming currency for a Spharai?

Atoreis

12-22-2011, 12:42 AM

Dammit, does this mean I need to level BST and start farming currency for a Spharai?

Worst troll attempt ever!

Zhronne

12-22-2011, 12:43 AM

Verethragna is still best used with victory smite, stop with you false assumptions.
I'm not sure about that.
Of course it depends on the entity of the nerf, but seeign how close Shijin and Smite are nowadays (even on Vere) it will take a very very very minimal nerf to mantain things like they are now for Vere users.
ODD is good, but I fear sometimes people overestimate its efficiency. With the only offhand / only once per attack turn caps it doesn't really have for MNK an impact as big as it has for other 2H weapons.

And I wouldn't be so sure about calling Verethragna best weapon for PUP either. Kenkonken is no joke after the recent 95 trial. Stringing Pummel is already an excellent WS, from 90+ they get a 15% damage boost on KKK, they get a 3 mins Aftermath, a stronger WS, an OA2-3 that can proc during WS and applies to pet... yeah, I'm afraid it's not that obvious that Vere is best PUP weapon.

Francisco

12-22-2011, 01:05 AM

Worst troll attempt ever!

Not trolling, but I wasn't really asking either.

I'm pretty pissed about the nerf - and now I'm contemplating scraping plans for 1500 Heavy Metal, and focusing that on a 95 Spharai... a lot of this depends on how the 99 Trials wind up, etc...

My efforts in collecting the heavy metals (which I had begun, but not completed) were under the assumption of a relatively easier (shorter) trial for 99...

Figuring if it's ~150mil for either relic or 95 Emp, and I can make 1/mil easily in a day, it's only ~5 months... the problem arises when you consider I can only devote 1-2 nights a week to this endeavor... so the time to complete becomes much longer. Not unattainable, jut not worth it if the 99 weapon is another major time sink.

Atoreis

12-22-2011, 01:28 AM

Not trolling, but I wasn't really asking either.

I'm pretty pissed about the nerf - and now I'm contemplating scraping plans for 1500 Heavy Metal, and focusing that on a 95 Spharai... a lot of this depends on how the 99 Trials wind up, etc...

My efforts in collecting the heavy metals (which I had begun, but not completed) were under the assumption of a relatively easier (shorter) trial for 99...

Figuring if it's ~150mil for either relic or 95 Emp, and I can make 1/mil easily in a day, it's only ~5 months... the problem arises when you consider I can only devote 1-2 nights a week to this endeavor... so the time to complete becomes much longer. Not unattainable, jut not worth it if the 99 weapon is another major time sink.

I tho you had relic ; ;

Also its not 150M for them. Its something like 113M for Spharai now (counting 70byne for last stage) and something like 170-180 for plates.

SNK

12-22-2011, 01:38 AM

I think the real question is why is PUP relavant again?

Greatguardian

12-22-2011, 02:08 AM

It's not.

0123456789

MarkovChain

12-22-2011, 02:14 AM

Kenkonken is no joke after the recent 95 trial. Stringing Pummel is already an excellent WS, from 90+ they get a 15% damage boost on KKK, they get a 3 mins Aftermath, a stronger WS, an OA2-3 that can proc during WS and applies to pet... yeah, I'm afraid it's not that obvious that Vere is best PUP weapon.

The aftermath is at 300 TP it's useless and that's why mythics are all garbage. Funny how someone mentionned glanzfaust.

Zhronne

12-22-2011, 02:20 AM

Don't have one myself, but doesn't seem too bad to keep lv3 mythic AM active with a high uptime in the era of Tactical Roll, Miser's Roll, temp items etc.
I just think they get underestimated more often than not.

Dfoley

12-22-2011, 02:21 AM

I think the real question is why is PUP relavant again?

Haters gonna hate... just saying, if you count our pets we pretty much destroy monk DD, but thats a topic for another troll thread

Greatguardian

12-22-2011, 02:25 AM

Some people must really never play with Bards or something. Good lord.

Motenten

12-22-2011, 02:35 AM

Per my pup spreadsheet calculations, using Bukhis target outside Abyssea, and using 15% base crit rate for Smite and 10% for Pummel, I have Smite at 1627 and Pummel at 1610 for a Taru (140 total str). For Elvaan (151 total str), 1699 for Smite, 1677 for Pummel. Overall, Smite has barely more than a 1% lead over Pummel. I don't see how you're ending up with numbers indicating a ~20% lead.

Regardless, Smite always felt rather weak when directly compared against Ukko's ludicrously high crit rates. At least we know that there's not a lot of room for them to nerf Smite (it's only ~5% above the general baseline for crit-based weaponskills), as compared to Ukko's. Dropping 5% crit rate from the above puts Taru at 1583 and Elvaan at 1654, putting Pummel about 1.5% ahead of Smite.

Rofues

12-22-2011, 04:10 AM

there's a name for that nerf, its called BS

MarkovChain

12-22-2011, 04:11 AM

@ Motenten. Yeah I counted an extra hit for vere so in the end victory is only slightly superior, it doesn't change that it's a PUP nerf because verethragna should remain their best weapon due to ODD/STR+17~20. Baring Maybe mythic, but anyone sane wouldn't consider it for this discussion. At least until we see what they do with nyzul revamp. Without going further into the math 30% ODD on main is roughly 15% increase to melee dot. I'm guessing PUP is the same as monk and melee takes priority (65% // 35% melee-ws split) so it's actually ~10% increase. You'd need to drop a lot more than 10% from VS to make vere+SP on par. The base crit might now be enough so in the end it's a pup nerf.

Dfoley

12-22-2011, 09:13 AM

Greatguardian

12-22-2011, 09:28 AM

Says the guy talking about Pup destroying Mnk DD.

FrankReynolds

12-22-2011, 09:43 AM

The good news is that now that they added a million things for people to upgrade in dynamis, Getting Spharai will probably be a lot easier now.

MarkovChain

12-22-2011, 07:34 PM

Ah a voice of sanity that actually makes sense.

Noticed how he confirmed how VS is currently superior to SP in pure damage ?

The good news is that now that they added a million things for people to upgrade in dynamis, Getting Spharai will probably be a lot easier now.

Only if you plan to buy everything. If you plan to farm everything (which is realistic is a few weeks with a BST on your main and a mule) then nope. Except maybe the forgotten item that seem to drops 6x less than coins. If the demands stays steady you caould use them to buy a part of your coins, however it still implie that you farm dynamis. Their prices is stable at 100k-150k I think it will stay at 100k because they are pretty rare and most people farming them keep them for their own use, as people seem to prefer farming EP for coins.

FrankReynolds

12-22-2011, 11:20 PM

Noticed how he confirmed how VS is currently superior to SP in pure damage ?

Only if you plan to buy everything. If you plan to farm everything (which is realistic is a few weeks with a BST on your main and a mule) then nope. Except maybe the forgotten item that seem to drops 6x less than coins. If the demands stays steady you caould use them to buy a part of your coins, however it still implie that you farm dynamis. Their prices is stable at 100k-150k I think it will stay at 100k because they are pretty rare and most people farming them keep them for their own use, as people seem to prefer farming EP for coins.

I was thinking more along the lines of being able to get big pick up groups that will come just for the forgotten items, and xp, and let you keep the currency. People need 20,000 xp with that gear on once they get it, so every zone is gonna be full of people eventually.

There are a lot of people who haven't touched dynamis since abyssea came out, who don't care about relic weapons, but will be wanting their relic gear upgrades just like before.

xbobx

12-23-2011, 01:06 AM

I just want to point out the fact that having an argument whether the VS nerf was a mnk or pup nerf is a new level of stupid for FFXI players.

Just saying.

Arcon

12-23-2011, 01:09 AM

I just want to point out the fact that having an argument whether the VS nerf was a mnk or pup nerf is a new level of stupid for FFXI players.

Just saying.

As sad as it sounds, I don't think that's true.

FrankReynolds

12-23-2011, 01:49 AM

I think the fact that it affects pup at all is sorta telling. They could have just nerfed some monk ability if they wanted it to be monk only. Of course they are really careless, so the pup nerf may have just been a byproduct.

Cursed

12-23-2011, 02:16 AM

don't doubt a 99Pup's with a Lv.95 KKK ability to humble all mnks.
its easier to swallow if you're prepared with the reality of just how bad ass KKK is.

Zhronne

12-23-2011, 02:20 AM

Can test lv95 KKK yourself on testserver if you want.
I guess in some specific situations a KKK PUP might outdamage a Vere/Spharai Monk, but I'm not really sure that can happen anytime anywhere and on any target...
Or maybe am I underestimating KKK's power? Which is definitely a lot, not denying that.

FrankReynolds

12-23-2011, 03:20 AM

don't doubt a 99Pup's with a Lv.95 KKK ability to humble all mnks.
its easier to swallow if you're prepared with the reality of just how bad ass KKK is.

Well hopefully they make those more easily attainable. Nyzul weapons are a friggin pain.

MarkovChain

12-23-2011, 07:21 AM

tldr; VS is now likely 15% crit at 100 tp.

Ok I tested VS' innate crit rate. I did plenty of WS on even match sand sweeper, without killing them, without mutiattack, without gorget etc. Since BG wiki average pdif formula are wrong I had to do a samples for crit hits and non crit hit.

Atmas : RR/GH/SS : with dex bonus it gives 75% crit rate total and 60% crit damage
stats : PUP99/THF49 564 Att, 172 STR, 208 dex (irrelevant), 127 vit

victory smite sample=[3552, 2732, 3098, 3902, 3169, 2652, 3328, 3616, 3815, 3074, 3592, 3618, 2267, 2844, 3535, 2490, 3100, 3554, 2950, 3675, 3724, 2715, 3079, 2604, 2467, 3291, 3224, 3676, 3343, 2781, 3351, 1797, 2429, 3705, 3215, 3029, 3699, 3032, 3229, 3004, 2313, 1899, 2760, 2967, 3161, 3333, 2401, 3119, 3041, 3814, 3725, 2114, 3026, 3437, 1766, 2809, 2775, 2491, 3200, 1963, 3803, 3137, 2079, 3218, 3403, 3578, 2544, 3505, 2748, 3363, 2664, 3827, 3697,2852,3916,2724,3548,3298]
78 weapon skills
average : 3076.60 +/- 119 (the error should be lower as each ws is 4 rolls, so it's probably half of that)

Crit sample:[318,384,344,396,339,406,400,368,697,326,369,422,417,324,369,353,363,400,348,396,353,360,361,379,401,417,353,312,427,326,416,345,412,304,344,420,340,356,356,380,214,329,344,404,382,395,332,361,302,339,393,414,321,409,400,323,360,308,395,312,398,379,342,419,340,318,366,360,412,339,380,395,360,318,408,297,360,329,320,396,323,358,366,316,315,396,374,419,300,337,406,355,347,358,340,379,366,363,340,392,406,320,340,408,387,398,416,377,412,337,361,358,350,315,323,321,353,308,240,348,328,336,328,339,326,404,374,308,331,414,360,305,313,372,324,388,412,401,342,390,329,334,339,347,428,427]
146 crits,
average : mc=362.33 +/- 7.7

non crits=[103,155,123,101,101,100,103,103,100,135,117,105,113,100,105,102,155,105,100,147,101,100,130,105,144,104,105,133,104,152,141,147,100,103,139,112,143,104,104,154,101,117,102,145,102,103,129,107,109,127,101,101,100,100,105,102,105,101,134,105,101,124,151,103,108,100,157,146,103,149,109,105,140,104,104,106,106,153,100,105,104,103,150,140,109,117,120,108,113,117,105,152,147,103,101,104,108,136,107,125,130,153,101,103,101,140,156,104,129,137,138,100,132,103,116,102,150,117,154,142,139,103,105]
123 hits
average : m1=117.82 +/- 3.37

My WSD is WSC:=floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+floor(0.85*(floor(0.32*172)+floor(0.32*127)))=181
(using 432 skill and D+39 weapon)

(2.25+3)*WSC*(0.90*mc*1.6+0.10*m1)*0.95=3020.007026 if 15% crit rate
(2.25+3)*WSC*(0.85*mc*1.6+0.15*m1)*0.95=2910.733566 if 10% crit rate
(2.25+3)*WSC*(0.95*mc*1.6+0.05*m1)*0.95=3129.280486 if 20% crit rate

Well since I find 3076 it can be either 15% or 20%, it cannot be less, and it's likely 15% since my CI should be lower than what I have due to one ws being 4 hits. Did they ajust it yet or not ? If they did it means the maths done that usually assumed 15% crit are wrong but now are right lol. It could be that they nerfed it from 20% to 15%. 25% to 20% is impossible since it was previously tested with atmas to be impossible by gokku.

Warden

12-23-2011, 07:25 AM

I did some very crude VS work on the test server to at least get some taste for the nerf. I was fighting Pil as MNK99/SAM49.
-Impetus/boost not used on any WS's/throughout testing (Impetus up would have been pretty much pointless since I could only survive for 60 seconds with fanatic's and was barely auto-attacking the whole time anyway).
-Champion's/Stalwarts/Braver's Tonics all used
-Food: Sole Sushi

-Gear-
Weapon: Verethragna 90
Ammo: Potestas Bomblet
Head: Shura+1: Augmented with 4 DEX/5 Attack/3% WSD
Neck: Rancor Collar
Ear1: Aesir Ear Pendant
Ear2: Brutal Earring
Body/Feet: Tantra+2
Legs: Shura+1: Augmented with STR+4
Hands: Heafoc Mitts
Ring1: Epona's Ring
Ring2: Rajas Ring
Back: Atheling Mantle
Waist: Thunder Belt

VS Damage: 18 WS's Total; Average = 1477
762
773
831
-----
1117
1150
1255
1329
1395
1474
1502
1582
1659
1707
1720
-----
1891
1944
2035
-----
2456

I have only done maybe 16-20 Pils total on the normal server, and sadly have not parsed myself on any of them. From memory, and as I am sure many others can attest--the lowest smites I ever saw were ~1150, and my highest on Pil was 3098. The most common numbers I recall seeing were the 1300-2700 range, with 1300-1999 comprising maybe 50% of the WS's, another 40% in the 2000-3000 range, and then 10% either below 1300 or above 3000. Again, I'm obviously just going off of memory on the numbers without the nerf present-and these numbers also include impetus/full DD drinks applied, and other times with no impetus/DD drinks applied.

Using that exact same gear set, I tossed out a couple of spirals for shiz, which ended up being 703, 764, 813, and 870. Obviously this is FAR from anywhere near an ideal Shijin set. I'm wondering if an ideal set + the increased base dmg from spharai could pull Shijin up to ~1400, or possibly even more.

MarkovChain

12-23-2011, 07:28 AM

Shijin will pull ahead easily if you gear for it, the increased damage from spharai is marginal as 1 dex is nearly 1 dmg.

Warden

12-23-2011, 07:44 AM

Shijin will pull ahead easily if you gear for it, the increased damage from spharai is marginal as 1 dex is nearly 1 dmg.

Hmm, hopefully I can get in on a Pil run soon and get some more solid testing without the nerf on VS dmg, and with impetus up whenever possible throughout the fight. As I am sure it is already apparent, trying to get useful data from this game is rather new territory for me--the main question I am leaning on now though is...will optimizing mnk DPS now consists of using Vere/VS 60% of the time with impetus up, and switching to spharai/SS for the remaining 40% of the time with impetus down to optimize dps. To be clear, I am strictly talking about outside of abyssea.

MarkovChain

12-23-2011, 08:21 AM

The difference while impetus is up is marginal enough to full time the relic. The only reason for vere is when you have a lot of crit from outside sources. Other wise they are pretty much equal but spharai is more consistent since it's a multihit.

sruon

12-23-2011, 11:32 AM

I don't always read pchan threads, but when I do, I do it for the disinformation.

Greatguardian

12-23-2011, 11:33 AM

I don't always read pchan threads, but when I do, I do it for the disinformation.

What disinformation?

Coming from Pchan at least?

Atoreis

12-24-2011, 03:04 AM

Maybe the part where on paper SS match/surpass VS and in reality its far behind? The problem is that Markov for some strange reason doesnt fight VW and give us a real numbers of SS at something like Kaggen. Getting Spharai on test server wont let me test it myself because I am lacking SS gear there.

Saying Impetus is a little boost to VS is just stupid and from my experience SS is not even close to VS at VW but ofc we wont ever get any proof because for Markov VW is stupid event that should be deleted from game ;)

Greatguardian

12-24-2011, 03:44 AM

Well the paper math looks to assume a damn near perfect DEX set for SS. Not many people have something like that, as there was no reason to before SS. Since the WSC is such a huge factor in SS, it's not surprising it's underperforming in practice compared to perfect gear sets.

You're not an idiot. Why in the world are you trying to overvalue parsed values - especially since Shijin beating Smite is largely dependent on using Spharai, not Vereth? If it's underperforming on Kaggen, then we probably have Kaggen's attributes wrong - because even Moten is pretty much on board with Pchan's Shijin analysis.

Motenten

12-24-2011, 04:24 AM

Atoreis

12-24-2011, 05:13 AM

Here, I'll put together numbers using gear I actually have vs the fake Qilin target (high def, favors crit damage more):

Shijin: Smite:
Thew Bomblet Thew Bomblet
Aias Bonnet Shura Aug (4 dex, 2% WSDmg)
Gorget Gorget
Brutal Brutal
Aesir Aesir
Tantra +2 Tantra +2
Ochiudo Heafoc
Rajas Rajas
Epona Epona
Atheling Atheling
Warwolf Anguinus
Byakko Usukane
Tantra +2 Tantra +2

Impetus up:
Shijin: 1661
Smite: 2078

Impetus down:
Shijin: 1595
Smite: 1680

Smite has a 25% lead with Impetus, a 5% lead without. You want stuff like Toci's Harness, Ocelomeh +1 head, Denali +5 feet, etc, to really push Shijin up past Smite. Spharai also help, with the higher base damage and heavy +att (I'm using Vere 90 for both of the above).

Im going to make like 100 SS on Kaggen and 100VS with 95 Veret and Spharai. All with Impetus and berserk and etc beside champion drink. Best I can get at test server is dex+61 (Pipilaka belt instead of 10DEX one, Love torque instead of gorget, af2+2 feet instead of athos, af2+2 gloves instead of Hachiryu, Osode instead of ???, thunder pearl and 7 dex ring instead of +4 and +8 earring/ring, thew bomblet instead of demonry) its not perfect but have a little more str and att than perfect SS set and only like 25DEX less.

So far avg SS is 1470 and I need to go on real server for some event so will go with it later.

Btw Im pretty sure your SS set is not even close to optimal Motenten.
Should be Shura for both. Even Osode should be better than Body +2 for SS even w/o augment. There is +10 dex belt instead of warwolf. Athos boots instead of af2+2 or Tantra+2(lol) and probably +4 dex earring instead of aesir.

Greatguardian

12-24-2011, 05:15 AM

Atoreis

12-24-2011, 05:20 AM

Giving up 25 Dex for more attack is a loss of 21 base damage on a multihit WS with Stalwart's, Berserk, and an attack bonus so it's going to have an impact.

I realize it's a matter of circumstance, but it will bring your numbers down.

I know but this number its easy to calculate if you know how much more % of base damage that would give me so you can just add that to my avg when I done.

Motenten

12-24-2011, 05:41 AM

Btw Im pretty sure your SS set is not even close to optimal Motenten.
Should be Shura for both. Even Osode should be better than Body +2 for SS even w/o augment. There is +10 dex belt instead of warwolf. Athos boots instead of af2+2 or Tantra+2(lol) and probably +4 dex earring instead of aesir.

1) I know it's not close to optimal. I said as much: it's based on gear I actually have, on the basis that most people don't have optimal SS gear sets if they've focused more on Smite up until now. It was to show you that if you don't have a specifically optimized SS gear set it's not at all surprising that Smite will outdo it.

2) I only have an NQ augmented Shura head (been lying in storage for years) that I got to play around with, and it's only the second sky piece I've ever bothered augmenting (first was Genbu's Shield). Compared to Aias, it's -3 str, -4 dex, +2% WSDmg. The lower str and dex means a loss of 3 to 5 base damage compared to Aias. Where the weaponskill will have a ~200-250 base damage to start, it's entirely possible that the +WSDmg will not make up for the lack of stats.

3) Forgot to check Osode. It's indeed slightly better, giving Shijin 1606 without Impetus and 1675 with.

4) Part of the gear choices were because the fake Qilin target also stresses accuracy (eg: Smite using Anguinus instead of a str belt). So, for example, the +acc on Tantra+2 feet, when combined with the str, was more valuable than the 5 dex of Aurore feet, and such (though in that case, even if I took acc out of the equation, Aurore are only about 5 points ahead). Athos are indeed better, but as per point #1, I don't have them, so they're not included in this little comparison.

MarkovChain

12-24-2011, 06:35 AM

There is an ah alternative to athos for as much dex, ocemoleh head and body are easy to gather. AF2+2 feet is likely better than both is not fstr capped.

Atoreis

12-24-2011, 06:58 AM

There is an ah alternative to athos for as much dex, ocemoleh head and body are easy to gather. AF2+2 feet is likely better than both is not fstr capped.

Well Athos is 10DEX and 3 dex is 2.55 base damage. 7STR is 1.75 base damage. Ofc they can also both be 2 base damage after rounding but in pure comparison Athos's are better.

MarkovChain

12-24-2011, 07:09 AM

It also gives attack. When doing math against 500 def mobs af2+2 didn't win but I assumed 150 str which is only possible with minuet and boost str.

Atoreis

12-24-2011, 07:13 AM

It also gives attack. When doing math against 500 def mobs af2+2 didn't win but I assumed 150 str which is only possible with minuet and boost str.

well it give 3-4 att but athos gives 1-2acc. Its close but there is a chance that 3 dex can give you 3 base damage and 7 STR only 1 base damage. This chance is small but exist :)

MarkovChain

12-27-2011, 04:49 AM

don't doubt a 99Pup's with a Lv.95 KKK ability to humble all mnks.
its easier to swallow if you're prepared with the reality of just how bad ass KKK is.

I thought so after realising SP was about as good as VS but then I checked KKK and PUP MA trait on the test server and it seems that some idiots have been spreading bullshit for a while about base trait values. I'm getting 5.0 tp per hit without weapon or store TP. I wonder if they are actually correct for MNK.

MarkovChain

12-27-2011, 06:20 AM

apprently MA value are wrong on the test server so nvm

MarkovChain

12-27-2011, 08:35 PM

Ok another test on VS crit rate, this time using brews and one shotting mobs. For this I lower limestone hares HP enough with one inch punch then it gives me some pause during which I can't TP then after 2 ticks the brew gives me 100+ TP and I can one shot. This method usually allows at most one melee rounds before VS goes off ( I'm spamming the macro) so I'm WSing often with arounds 115 tps or less and sometimes 130 ish.

With RR/GH/thrashing trendills : in theory I have a 85% crit rate form atmas and dex buffs. I did plenty of Victory smite, and had to wait a while to see a non crit but it happened anyway. I was PUP/NIN (432 skill, D+39) with brew and saw a 3048 damage from VS with 5 tp return. It's not possible that this would come from the crit of a secondary hit because

1*( floor(432*0.11)+3+12+39+0.85*0.6*999 )*3.15*1.3=2499,...
So It's necessarily on the first hit. It's therefore a non crit (I have ~ 1.7 pdif on this 3048 dmg ws).
So it shows that the native crit rate on VS is < 15%.

To confirm I have done the same with RR+GH+SS (75% base crit) and got a handful of 11 tp return WS even though I would WS below 50%, which shows that the first hit didn't crit.

Since I had to do 40+ VS to get a gimp damage with RR+GH+TT I'm guessing it's only 10%.

Motenten

12-27-2011, 10:08 PM

Post by Mocchi on the JP side of the official forums gives this info (won't be translated to the EN side for a while since they're all on vacation):

•ウッコフューリー Ukko
【調整前の状態】30%／50%／80%
　↓
【テストサーバー】15%／25%／40%
　
•ビクトリースマイト Smite
【調整前の状態】15%／30%／60%
　↓
【テストサーバー】10%／20%／35%

Full original post here (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18579-dev1064-%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%82%B3%E3%80%81%E3%83%93%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9E%E5%BC%B1%E4%BD%93?p=252787#post252787).

Shows the old and new crit scaling values for Smite and Ukkos at 100/200/300 TP. Confirms the 10% Markov tested.

Looks like a 3.5%-4% reduction in overall damage at the usual usage at ~100 TP, and a 12%-16% reduction at 300 TP.

Cream_Soda

12-28-2011, 12:33 AM

For curiosity's sake, how much reduction is that for war?

Motenten

12-28-2011, 04:05 AM

Cream_Soda

12-28-2011, 04:35 AM

Ewwwww ouch

Motenten

12-28-2011, 04:43 AM

Oh, and Raging Rush for same target/gear setup: 1791 @100 TP, 2459 @300 TP. So Ukko's is (after nerf) 17.5% better at 100 TP and 12% better at 300 TP. Of course Ukko gets you the ODD aftermath as well (which is also significantly more powerful than the Vere version), so there's still a solid edge over RR.

Dfoley

12-29-2011, 10:01 PM

Didnt see this posted here but in JP a few days ago they announced the offical nerf.

ukkos Fury
30% / 50% / 80% [unadjusted state]
　↓
[Test Server] 15% / 25% / 40%
　
Victory Smite
15% / 30% / 60% [unadjusted state ]
　↓
[Test Server] 10% / 20% / 35%

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18579-dev1064-%E3%82%A6%E3%83%83%E3%82%B3%E3%80%81%E3%83%93%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9E%E5%BC%B1%E4%BD%93?p=252787#post252787

MarkovChain

12-29-2011, 10:02 PM

It's been posted 4 posts above you...

Glacont

12-29-2011, 10:30 PM

@100 TP: 2355 > 2105, 11% reduction (~6% overall DPS)
@300 TP: 3404 > 2757, 19% reduction

Can't give a proper value for overall DPS reduction for 300 TP since that's usually dependent on unusual factors.

I am in a rush to make it to work, so I'll make this breif. First off, Thank You Motenten for providing the Ukko numbers and for the follow up post on how The Warrior stands with Raging Rush. I am grateful for your attempt to make it seem not so bad, but from My stand point it is. Since I am press for time, I'll use comic books as an example.

You take the Hulk whose only true power is strength and [Physical brute force. As he gets angery his strength contniues to increase (Much like WAR with Jas)]. Hulk is at the head of the table for Damage dealing. Now, You reduce his overall one strength, brute force, 3 times he is no longer The Hulk [Green skin/ bulk size/ increase str etc] He is Mr. Fix-it [The Grey Hulk. Weaker and smaller in size] Sure Mr. Fix-it can still deal damge but he is not the same. Now Thor and Herucles take his chair.

I really need to go, so I'll end this here.