More nerfs for War & Ukkos. [Archive] - FINAL FANTASY XI Forum

Runespider

12-21-2011, 08:37 PM

Oh how things have changed! Not too long ago, before Tanakabalance's renewed reign of terror!

A reponse about fears of a vit change to crit dmg's effect of thieves etc.

Camate wrote:

To quell some of your concerns about the adjustments set to take place regarding VIT and critical hits, you'll be glad to know that this adjustment will only be for player characters and NOT monsters. Additionally, in regards to the note about "certain job traits will see their maximum level of effectiveness adjusted by equipment, magic, and/or job abilities" have no fear as no negative adjustments will be taking place. Instead the limits on these will be increased, making players even stronger.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5969-dev1010-Job-Adjustments-VIT-Adjustment-and-THF/page2

In all seriousness, the game is not in a good place right now. Nerfing our toys when the game is in such a state is not a good idea, stop nerfing shit and add more content first? I wouldn't mind so much about losing a large amount of damage from my emps if there was a lot of other stuff I could do at least.

Really, this is idiocy ontop of more idiocy.

So many things are going to be nerfed soon, some cor rolls are overpowered.../convert is overpowered, PD is overpowered, Ochain is overpowered. So many bad things coming up, this is just the start.

Tagrineth

12-21-2011, 09:05 PM

Did anyone really not see an Ukko's nerf coming? I mean really, it's hands down the best weapon skill in the game right now, by a completely unreasonable margin.

Tsuneo

12-21-2011, 09:11 PM

Brolic

12-21-2011, 09:41 PM

did wildfire just become the new king of the hill?

brayen

12-21-2011, 09:41 PM

People don't expect things to become subpar because they got nerfed. People expect things to become subpar because something better exists, but SE has proved their incompetence yet again. All SE knows how to is nerf instead of making better weaponskills. The fact that people get excited over this, means that they really don't have any real desire to see their job get stronger as long as they can be the top DD. Nerfing things to make other jobs compete is just a step backwards. I don't care how weak your job was/is. The best thing for everyone is to have the weaker jobs brought up to the level of the stronger jobs.

What he said basically. It is ridiculous to be glad to see other jobs get nerfed on just so you can feel better about yours. I love my pup, and i want it to keep getting sweet update like the one we just had, not see other jobs take a dive cuz of "balance". This kinda of nerf is what i cant understand nor predict. out of so much stuff they could do with most jobs and what not nerfing is the route they take? that's sad from a dev point of view if you ask me.

here is to hoping the nerf bat is padded ;/ maybe the nerf wont be too big...but as far as smite goes, it is gonna be severe, given that ODD only applies to 1 hand as is and the easier to get merit ws is already fairly powerful(watch them neft the merit h2h ws next cuz i said this!..gdi SE!)

Vivik

12-21-2011, 09:48 PM

I'm not even a war and I think that's bullshit. Maybe staging a sit-in and crashing port Jeuno on every server will change their minds. It worked for Eve Online...

Finuve

12-21-2011, 10:20 PM

I don't find this to be that big of a deal, however between Konzen-Ittai, Sengikori, Sekkanoki, Hasso, Hagakure, and of course Tachi: Shoha, Samurai was already keeping up with WAR outside abyssea

If SE is really going down this path then SAM needs dropped back down a few and things like Quietus, Camlann's Torment, Cloudsplitter need buffs, as well as other buffs for jobs that arent WAR SAM and MNK

saevel

12-21-2011, 10:23 PM

This is just the beginning. Tanaka is rolling back the job changes the Abyssea crew implemented. Expect more JA / WS / JT nerfs for all the jobs, if you got something shiny from 76~95 then it's game for removal / nerfing.

Anyone else have any sliver of doubt remaining about Tanaka's non-presence during the Abyssea time.

Finuve

12-21-2011, 10:31 PM

Tamoa

12-21-2011, 10:36 PM

The restraint nerf didn't bother me. This however, does bother me - a LOT. This is SE going back on their word, this is SE screwing with its playerbase. They should - like others have said already - make other DD jobs stronger if they want their goddamn precious BALANCE so fucking bad.

I could understand if one update had made Ukko's Fury and Victory Smite unintentionally strong, and then changing that back at the first possible opportunity. However, these 2 weaponskills have been at the top damage wise for how long now? A year or so? And SE even purposely made them stronger in one update. And now this? What a load of bullcrap, seriously.

Nice Christmas gifts you're giving your playerbase SE. -.-

Monchat

12-21-2011, 10:37 PM

oh sweet, at least DRK won't be losing anything then

Lol that's funny.

Avelonia

12-21-2011, 11:16 PM

I'm seriously starting to believe they want us all to quit...............

Ravenmore

12-21-2011, 11:24 PM

Yep people defend Tanaka some more.

Tagrineth

12-21-2011, 11:28 PM

JiltedValkyrie

12-21-2011, 11:39 PM

So now it will do 5k instead of 7k. Oh, the horror!

Finuve

12-21-2011, 11:45 PM

Seriha

12-21-2011, 11:50 PM

lol at everyone claiming they should give every job a WS as strong as Ukko's Fury.

Yes, "balance" has become a hilarious meme, but for fuck's sake, we shouldn't have the ability to one-shot VT mobs with a single weapon skill on ONE job let alone all of them. -_-

If that's such a concern, future mobs can be designed with high amounts of critical hit defense or other forms of damage mitigation.

But really, silly nerfs, especially in the presence of other issues that go ignored.

Sharnak

12-21-2011, 11:54 PM

Oh how things have changed! Not too long ago, before Tanakabalance's renewed reign of terror!

A reponse about fears of a vit change to crit dmg's effect of thieves etc.

Camate wrote:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5969-dev1010-Job-Adjustments-VIT-Adjustment-and-THF/page2

In all seriousness, the game is not in a good place right now. Nerfing our toys when the game is in such a state is not a good idea, stop nerfing shit and add more content first? I wouldn't mind so much about losing a large amount of damage from my emps if there was a lot of other stuff I could do at least.

Really, this is idiocy ontop of more idiocy.

So many things are going to be nerfed soon, some cor rolls are overpowered.../convert is overpowered, PD is overpowered, Ochain is overpowered. So many bad things coming up, this is just the start.

Header was changed, so politics change. It's simple like that. No need to wait you will see more comming. =D Just what job will be next.

Runespider

12-21-2011, 11:54 PM

If that's such a concern, future mobs can be designed with high amounts of critical hit defense or other forms of damage mitigation.

They already did that too. The level cap taru made a joke of war and Ukos.

darkhorror

12-21-2011, 11:55 PM

Looks like it's time for everyone to level SAM again, along with a TP bonus weapon. We know how this will end, every job will be gimped to hell and SAM will bet every boost they can think of. I couldn't help but laugh when I read this.

scaevola

12-21-2011, 11:57 PM

you people need some grief counseling

sheesh

darkhorror

12-21-2011, 11:58 PM

Really I think think this is more the fact that they are enchancing DA and crit attack bonus. Thus they didn't want war to have those along with the crit attack bonus on blood rage and huge crit hit rate on ukko's fury.

But this just sounds stupid why bother enchancing one part if you are just going to nerf another and end up back where you started.

Sharnak

12-22-2011, 12:00 AM

Last time i will say about Mr.T's politics. "He's lazy and choose easiest way to adjust thing and make thing" To make other job balance with WAR and MNK power is a lot of work, then he choose the easiest ways nerf it. If you still not familar with this nerf please make familar with it. it's will happen again and again in future. =D

tyrantsyn

12-22-2011, 12:06 AM

Did anyone really not see an Ukko's nerf coming? I mean really, it's hands down the best weapon skill in the game right now, by a completely unreasonable margin.

WAR players like Ukko's the way it is. This makes playing the job enjoyable to them. Linkshells like having Ukon WAR's around because when push come's to shove they are reliable for the damage output. Ukko give's WAR's a chance to solo with the "you or me is going down" mentality. Since SE still hasn't given us a some kind of extra way to negate damage on our own "defender alone doesn't cut it" Losing that big damage sucks.

scaevola

12-22-2011, 12:20 AM

WAR players like Ukko's the way it is.

loller

I'm sure they do!

Vold

12-22-2011, 12:24 AM

Vision
Damage dealers who use their brawn to continuously pummel foes with a barrage of physical damage, but also use their brains to adapt to the situation at hand.

We will certainly preserve the warrior's physical prowess, which makes it such an imposing damage dealer, but we also want to make it a more flexible attacker. We hope to accomplish through such means as adding abilities that modify weapon properties, making for more enemy-overpowering carnage."We will certainly preserve the warrior's physical prowess,We will certainly preserve the warrior's physical prowess,We will certainly preserve the warrior's physical prowess,We will certainly preserve the warrior's physical prowess,We will certainly preserve the warrior's physical prowess,We will certainly preserve the warrior's physical prowess."

You know, I had this whole bitchfest typed up but I just deleted it. I just realized that at this point this just isn't very surprising. After slapping relic/mythic owners across the face with empyreans, they are prone to slap anyone. What will be surprising to me is nerfing SAM. Only then will I look at this stuff as being done for the good of game balance and NOT in the name of putting SAM/ back at the top. I mean it can be at the top for all I care. Just not so far up that you're stupid for not using it.

I just expect to see adjustments and content designed that have been in place for a year to stay put when they openly preach about preserving it, and not be nerfed because they released fail content and are trying to preserve it. When VW is done with, and we move on to the next thing and assuming the next thing doesn't suck too, VW is dead forever. Sky will live for longer than VW and it's 8 years old. Baaaah whatever I'll kill what I need to quick before this nerf goes live.

Francisco

12-22-2011, 12:26 AM

This is complete and utter rubbish.

Buff the other jobs, and make the new weaponskills worth a damn if you want your precious balance.

I'm about done with playing in Tanaka's Nerf Circus Balancing Act.

The game has been garbage since they pulled him from FFXIV and refocused him on FFXI.

Camate - if you read this, could you please let Mr. Tanaka know how hated he is - and make sure to go over his head and let his bosses know to? Thanks.

Brolic

12-22-2011, 12:28 AM

how are the jp's reacting to this?

Theytak

12-22-2011, 12:43 AM

As a war, I am a bit saddened that they're taking out the juicy part of blood rage, but honestly, even without the crit damage boost, only having the crit rate boost won't suddenly make it a worthless JA. It'll still be stronger than warcry raging rush/ukko's/lolrampage. It just means that we'll go back to using warcry for non crit ws, and during mighty strikes.

But I think you guys are reading way to heavily into the proposed changes for VS and Ukko's...

TP critical hit bonuses for the weapon skills “Ukko’s Fury” and “Victory Smite” will be lowered.

They're not changing the 60% Str mod on either WS. They're not changing the incredibly high (for multi-hit crit ws) fTP values. They're just lowering the incredibly high crit rate.

at 100% TP, Ukko's Fury has a 30% crit rate, before any crit rate from merits/dDex/gear/crit evasion debuffs/atma. I haven't seen any concrete testing for VS, but I would assume it's about the same based on its general level of strength. Comparatively, Chant du Cygne, Blade: Hi, and Jishnu's Radiance all have 15% crit rates at 100% TP.

Honestly, they're probably just going to reduce VS/ukko's crit rates to be more in line with the other empy ws. Yes, that will mean they won't be as strong vs high defense mobs, but prior to empy ws, multi-hit crit ws were almost never a great choice vs high defense mobs anyway.

Does this mean we're going to see a sam nerf, though? Not a chance in hell. If anything, while they're going around, taking back all the nice new toys they gave out post 75, they'll probably give half of them to sam.

Insaniac

12-22-2011, 01:06 AM

It is really strange. It's like Tanaka is trying to put things back the way they were at the 75 cap. With AH SAMs performing on par with Relic DDs. All you need is some STR gear a TP bonus GK and 5/5 Shoha and you are gonna parse at the top every time. You don't even need a good TP set because of 70tp return WSs and constant wings in VW. The trade off for being able to WS as much as a SAM should be weaker WSs. SAMs also have insanely powerful native JAs and a degree of survivability but I guess they rationalize that by making most of them subable. How else do you rationalize the same job getting Hasso(and Zanhasso), Seigan, 3rd Eye, Meditate, Overwhelm, Sekkanoki, Store TP, Konzen-ittai, Hagakure AND a beastly non-relic/emp/mythic WS.

Puck

12-22-2011, 01:11 AM

how are the jp's reacting to this?

Either they don't care much or their forums are much less active than ours. Poking around the JP WAR, MNK, and general sections, I don't see any reactions to the upcoming nerfs.

Runespider

12-22-2011, 01:16 AM

It is really strange. It's like Tanaka is trying to put things back the way they were at the 75 cap. With AH SAMs performing on par with Relic DDs.

I still feel some rage about when I finally finished my relic and AH sams were doing the same kind of numbers (and frequently more) than I was pulling off. I had all the best gear at the time too, which made it even more dissapointing.

Ultimately I think Ukkos will become almost identical to Raging rush in terms of damage. This will go across the board to all emp/relic/mythic ws too, when he says balance he really means it.

saevel

12-22-2011, 01:18 AM

As a war, I am a bit saddened that they're taking out the juicy part of blood rage, but honestly, even without the crit damage boost, only having the crit rate boost won't suddenly make it a worthless JA. It'll still be stronger than warcry raging rush/ukko's/lolrampage. It just means that we'll go back to using warcry for non crit ws, and during mighty strikes.

But I think you guys are reading way to heavily into the proposed changes for VS and Ukko's...

They're not changing the 60% Str mod on either WS. They're not changing the incredibly high (for multi-hit crit ws) fTP values. They're just lowering the incredibly high crit rate.

at 100% TP, Ukko's Fury has a 30% crit rate, before any crit rate from merits/dDex/gear/crit evasion debuffs/atma. I haven't seen any concrete testing for VS, but I would assume it's about the same based on its general level of strength. Comparatively, Chant du Cygne, Blade: Hi, and Jishnu's Radiance all have 15% crit rates at 100% TP.

Honestly, they're probably just going to reduce VS/ukko's crit rates to be more in line with the other empy ws. Yes, that will mean they won't be as strong vs high defense mobs, but prior to empy ws, multi-hit crit ws were almost never a great choice vs high defense mobs anyway.

Does this mean we're going to see a sam nerf, though? Not a chance in hell. If anything, while they're going around, taking back all the nice new toys they gave out post 75, they'll probably give half of them to sam.

One year ago I would of agree with you. At face value this update won't unseat either WAR nor MNK as the super DD's they are. But this is Tanaka we're talking about, the guy who trolled EVERYONE with -attack weapon skills. For all we know they could change Ukon and VS to have -15% crit rate at 100% TP. They are that stupid.

Theytak

12-22-2011, 01:56 AM

Either they don't care much or their forums are much less active than ours. Poking around the JP WAR, MNK, and general sections, I don't see any reactions to the upcoming nerfs.

To be fair, it's what? 2am JP time? The NA forums completely die after midnight, so it wouldn't be surprising if the JP forums are the same way

One year ago I would of agree with you. At face value this update won't unseat either WAR nor MNK as the super DD's they are. But this is Tanaka we're talking about, the guy who trolled EVERYONE with -attack weapon skills. For all we know they could change Ukon and VS to have -15% crit rate at 100% TP. They are that stupid.

People seriously need to stop all the useless tanaka bashing. It's not productive and I have yet to hear or see convincing evidence that tanaka is the one sole reason why this stuff happens. Is he related? yes. Is he the only person to blame? Absolutely not.

scaevola

12-22-2011, 02:12 AM

One year ago I would of agree with you. At face value this update won't unseat either WAR nor MNK as the super DD's they are. But this is Tanaka we're talking about, the guy who trolled EVERYONE with -attack weapon skills. For all we know they could change Ukon and VS to have -15% crit rate at 100% TP. They are that stupid.

Assume for the sake of argument, if you would for a moment, that WAR needs to be nerfed. In return, I will assume that the FFXI devs have a proven track record of poor balancing decisions.

For one thing, is this proven track record not the reason why the nerf is necessary to begin with? The devs gave WAR a weapon skill that's too powerful, and are correcting it (though they probably could have picked a better time to do so). For another, if it needs to be nerfed, is a fear of overcorrection really a reason to not go ahead with it? If WARs get nerfed too much, they can be re-buffed.

I am a Victory Smite MNK, and I have no problem admitting the weapon skill makes my MNK too powerful relative to my other jobs for the interests of balanced content that could be challenging but doable for skilled players in a variety of jobs. A new Voidwatch update comes out and people are pug-farming the new bosses within a day, but when SE starts doing the exact sort of thing it needs to to actually find some middle ground between Day-1-Botulus-Rex and Absolute Virtue in 2005, the forums get an aneurysm.

Pretty funny, really.

Zumi

12-22-2011, 02:27 AM

This war and mnk nerfs are incredibly stupid. These weapon skills have been in the game for over a year and nothing was changed about them. If you thought they were too powerful should of been changed much sooner not over a year later since they have been out. Players who have spent tons of time getting these weapons and may have spent millions of gil buying trail items are having their work marginalized. Its a big screw you to players who may have got a 95 version of either of these weapons and a lot of wasted time and resources.

Nerfing everything down so its the same as level 60 ws is just a stupid idea. Its not they way to go.

This is the wrong way to balance the game. There is no doubt these weapons skills were good. But the better solution is to buff the other ones to bring them up to the level of ukko and vs not nerf players. Nerfing a select few jobs just pisses off the playerbase who use these jobs its not fun to log in and have your character be much weaker as a result of a nerf especially when its something you have had for over a year.

Keinn

12-22-2011, 02:33 AM

Job Adjustments
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/7711/7711.jpg
lmao
They are trolling us on purpose, I know it.

Runespider

12-22-2011, 02:38 AM

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/7711/7711.jpg

They put a cool action shot/proud stance pic of the 2 jobs while nerfing them lol

"We are adjusting your favoured jobs, be excited for the upcoming NERFS!"

Avelonia

12-22-2011, 02:43 AM

A pic of a MNK lying dead on the ground and SAM performing Tachi: Shoha on a WAR would have been more appropriate

Hextitan

12-22-2011, 03:15 AM

I don't find this to be that big of a deal, however between Konzen-Ittai, Sengikori, Sekkanoki, Hasso, Hagakure, and of course Tachi: Shoha, Samurai was already keeping up with WAR outside abyssea

Uh....no they aren't. Not even remotely close. On higher tier VWNMs WARs can still do 2.5k-3k+ Ukko's pretty much nonstop. Obviously not the 5k+ Ukko's that are common in Abyssea but it's still head and shoulders above a SAM with any WS.

The nerf to Ukko's would have to be significant for SAM to get anywhere near WAR.

Unaisis

12-22-2011, 03:18 AM

TACHI: SHOHA ALL THINGS!!!!!!

Neisan_Quetz

12-22-2011, 03:19 AM

Theytak

12-22-2011, 03:21 AM

Uh....no they aren't. Not even remotely close. On higher tier VWNMs WARs can still do 2.5k-3k+ Ukko's pretty much nonstop. Obviously not the 5k+ Ukko's that are common in Abyssea but it's still head and shoulders above a SAM with any WS.

The nerf to Ukko's would have to be significant for SAM to get anywhere near WAR.

compare sam to any DD that isn't a well geared ukkowar/veremnk, and sam completely destroys them every day of the week and twice on sunday. The fact that well geared ukkowars/veremnks can out pace a well geared fudosam is one of the most surprising developments this game has ever experienced.

scaevola

12-22-2011, 03:31 AM

compare sam to any DD that isn't a well geared ukkowar/veremnk, and sam completely destroys them every day of the week and twice on sunday. The fact that well geared ukkowars/veremnks can out pace a well geared fudosam is one of the most surprising developments this game has ever experienced.

If Shoha needs to be nerfed, that's a totally separate issue from whether Vsmite and Ukko's need to be nerfed.

Runespider

12-22-2011, 03:52 AM

All I really hope is that this isn't the tip of the iceberg of taking everything we gained back and putting the game back to pre-abyssea.

Everyone was amazed /convert wasn't nerfed, maybe it will be now? Ochain is amazingly overpowered, will it remain so? Haste is easy to cap for almost every job, will they somehow find a way to nerf haste (same for the amount of refresh you can get on a mage). So many things to worry about given the last interview and these latest actions.

Basically the way I look at stuff right now is, if I can't see it being added before Aby can I expect it to be nerfed now? There was a lot of stuff that blew our minds when Aby launched, the bar has been raised way high and I fear them knocking it down quite a few notches again across the board.

Zumi

12-22-2011, 04:12 AM

Taint2

12-22-2011, 04:22 AM

Click Me (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/91236-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-damage-IV-We-can-t-read-your-black-text-or-Comic-Sans/page57)

Posted this in the Shoha thread.

Theytak

12-22-2011, 04:32 AM

If Shoha needs to be nerfed, that's a totally separate issue from whether Vsmite and Ukko's need to be nerfed.

wasn't even talking about shoha. The fact that any DD will generally lose to an evenly geared sam, outside of lolabyssea and ukkowar/veremnk has been pretty much standard since the 2h update. The fact that a sam that's noticeably less well geared can compete with them only adds insult to injury.

Hextitan

12-22-2011, 04:38 AM

You haven't been paying attention to SE nerfs lately have you?

You didn't pay attention to the last line of my post, did you?

They would have to nerf Ukko's above and beyond any WS nerf the game has ever seen, for SAMs to be close to touching it. Which is assuming a lot considering we know nothing about the nerf so far.

Hextitan

12-22-2011, 04:40 AM

compare sam to any DD that isn't a well geared ukkowar/veremnk, and sam completely destroys them every day of the week and twice on sunday....

Why would we compare them to WAR and MNKs that aren't well geared? So basically you're saying when the odds are tipped in SAM's favor, they outdamage other lesser equipped jobs. Ok....and?

Hextitan

12-22-2011, 04:45 AM

Click Me (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/91236-Fapworthy-WS-SC-or-MB-damage-IV-We-can-t-read-your-black-text-or-Comic-Sans/page57)

Posted this in the Shoha thread.

I think people missed this post, so I'm going to quote it.

Multiple 5k VS and Ukko's on various high tier VWNMs. If you people think Shoha is close to that, you're insane. Like I said SE would have to completely cripple both WSs for SAM to compete with either.

I understand people are upset with the nerf but throwing SAM under the bus ain't helping anything.

Theytak

12-22-2011, 04:45 AM

Why would we compare them to WAR and MNKs that aren't well geared? So basically you're saying when the odds are tipped in SAM's favor, they outdamage other lesser equipped jobs. Ok....and?.........do you really need me to spell out the rather obvious meaning of my words? I thought it was rather obvious that I meant "any dd and a sam, when equally well geared, outside of ukkowars and vere mnks, will lose". I didn't say compare a perle war to a fudo sam.... I meant like, full AF3+2 war w/o ukko vs AF3+2 mnk w/o vere vs AF3+2 sam w/o fudo (by af3+2 I mean gear quality for someone who has completed abyssea, not some wackadoodle who thinks 5/5 AF3+2 isthe only good TP set), or perle war vs perle sam vs pink mnk, or pimped out 75 gear war vs pimped out 75 gear mnk vs pimped out 75 gear sam

...do I really need to dumb down my posts that much for people to understand them?

Halycon

12-22-2011, 05:26 AM

Complete and utter BS...

Siiri

12-22-2011, 05:38 AM

I agree War and Ukko are overpowered. I also believe Tachi: Shoha and SAM need a reduction.

svengalis

12-22-2011, 05:48 AM

I remember the first time I quit, a big part of it was the rng nerf. I am nin main now so I doubt they will get any nerfs.

Neisan_Quetz

12-22-2011, 06:12 AM

You didn't pay attention to the last line of my post, did you?

They would have to nerf Ukko's above and beyond any WS nerf the game has ever seen, for SAMs to be close to touching it. Which is assuming a lot considering we know nothing about the nerf so far.

Yea, and when SE said they were going to reduce restraint and 'take it slow', they halved the cap and slope it increases ws damage.

SE doesn't do slight nerfs.

Zumi

12-22-2011, 06:33 AM

Seriously though all these nerfs are just pissing people off. They are trying so hard to make sure that pre 75 ws and abilities stay top for whatever stupid reason.

scaevola

12-22-2011, 06:33 AM

wasn't even talking about shoha. The fact that any DD will generally lose to an evenly geared sam, outside of lolabyssea and ukkowar/veremnk has been pretty much standard since the 2h update. The fact that a sam that's noticeably less well geared can compete with them only adds insult to injury.

So, what, exactly? We need to nerf SAM because Camlann's Torment is garbage? Because SAM is really easy to gear? Because Voidwatch lets you use fanatic's drinks and the thing that Ranger is supposed to be really, really good for is rendered pointless?

There's nothing about a Masamune SAM that makes it inherently stronger than a Ryunohige DRG other than the fact that Ryunohige DRGs don't actually exist.

Theytak

12-22-2011, 06:37 AM

So, what, exactly? We need to nerf SAM because Camlann's Torment is garbage? Because SAM is really easy to gear? Because Voidwatch lets you use fanatic's drinks and the thing that Ranger is supposed to be really, really good for is rendered pointless?

There's nothing about a Masamune SAM that makes it inherently stronger than a Ryunohige DRG other than the fact that Ryunohige DRGs don't actually exist.

I vote for doing something totally out of left field and making brds the new top DD in the game.

Quetzacoatl

12-22-2011, 06:47 AM

Well, My LS is certainly unhappy with what I told them...

Ukko/VS Nerfs

Blood Rage nerf

Zerich

12-22-2011, 07:19 AM

I vote for doing something totally out of left field and making brds the new top DD in the game.

seconded12

Seiver

12-22-2011, 08:07 AM

I'm not even a war and I think that's bullshit. Maybe staging a sit-in and crashing port Jeuno on every server will change their minds. It worked for Eve Online...

i was at the Demo in eve i think this could work

Theytak

12-22-2011, 10:12 AM

i was at the Demo in eve i think this could work

I was there too, it was obnoxious. I recommend going war/whm, war/brd, or war/cor, partying up, and spamming AoE party buffs.

Also, I love how they moved this thread to the war forum for no real reason, with no explanation. It's like they're saying "stop complaining, we're not listening."

newmonkey

12-22-2011, 10:33 AM

Funny how most of teh community laughed when emypreans overtook relics haha paybacks a bitch isn't it.

Airget

12-22-2011, 10:38 AM

It be nice to see WAR adjustments that actually give us something, SAM has gotten a lot of new WS. It be nice if at least the adjustment would just give us a new JA to play with lol we haven't gotten anything for these last two limit breaks.

LeylaAsura

12-22-2011, 10:40 AM

I have notthing special to add to why it should'nt be nerfed, all i can do is add to the testification PLEASE dont nerf Ukko's SE....that is all */ragequit*

newmonkey

12-22-2011, 10:44 AM

LeylaAsura

12-22-2011, 10:48 AM

I want SE to read my simple protest end of story. Dont care what u think.

FrankReynolds

12-22-2011, 10:52 AM

Then rage quit. Once again this is so funny all the whiners crying were was this amazing out cry when relics were laughed at when 85 empyreans were released ? Thats right you guys laughed at relic holders haha.

I can see you desperately want someone to respond to this comment since you've said it twice. So here you go: Your comment shows a complete lack of effort. If you would like to incite some sort of anger or argument, you will have to try harder. Don't be such a failboat. You can do it. :)

Theytak

12-22-2011, 10:54 AM

I want SE to read my simple protest end of story. Dont care what u think.

You must be new here. SE doesn't actually read anything on these forums. The awesome translator moogles take all our suggestions, filter out the nonsense, translate them, and hand them off to the devs. Then the devs use the suggestions to make paper swords, with which they have pretend ninja fights. If they pull off an especially awesome trick during these pretend fights, they'll read a suggestion off of their sword and use it as their battle cry.

FrankReynolds

12-22-2011, 10:56 AM

You must be new here. SE doesn't actually read anything on these forums. The awesome translator moogles take all our suggestions, filter out the nonsense, translate them, and hand them off to the devs. Then the devs use the suggestions to make paper swords, with which they have pretend ninja fights. If they pull off an especially awesome trick during these pretend fights, they'll read a suggestion off of their sword and use it as their battle cry.

probably the most accurate depiction of the process I've seen lately. You and spank must have visitor passes to the SE building.

LeylaAsura

12-22-2011, 11:02 AM

You must be new here. SE doesn't actually read anything on these forums. The awesome translator moogles take all our suggestions, filter out the nonsense, translate them, and hand them off to the devs. Then the devs use the suggestions to make paper swords, with which they have pretend ninja fights. If they pull off an especially awesome trick during these pretend fights, they'll read a suggestion off of their sword and use it as their battle cry.

lawls why yes i am new ty for the reminder that SE hates us all. I actully was hoping that high amounts of complaints torwards something in the game might sway them to change lol :P Anyways, ive included a pic of something cute:
http://shechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/more-cute-animals-41.jpg?w=500&h=375

newmonkey

12-22-2011, 11:05 AM

I can see you desperately want someone to respond to this comment since you've said it twice. So here you go: Your comment shows a complete lack of effort. If you would like to incite some sort of anger or argument, you will have to try harder. Don't be such a failboat. You can do it. :)

I've said it twice because it's true.

Theytak

12-22-2011, 11:10 AM

probably the most accurate depiction of the process I've seen lately. You and spank must have visitor passes to the SE building.

I'll never admit to the existence of the secret clubhouse where spank and I hang out with sage sundi, telling fart jokes, having paperswordninja battles, raising a pet armadillo, and sing journey, queen, and weird al karaoke. Such a thing does not exist.

Arcon

12-22-2011, 11:16 AM

Don't be such a failboat. You can do it. :)

I honestly doubt he can.

Shotaro1

12-22-2011, 11:18 AM

Concerned4FFxi

12-22-2011, 04:32 PM

This sucks

Tagrineth

12-22-2011, 04:44 PM

For the record: Anyone that's like "THESE WS BEEN AROUND FOR A YEAR WITHOUT NERFS WHY NOW?!" well until recently, we didn't have legitimate high-level content to use them on. Abyssea doesn't count. The crit RATE modifiers on the WS are 99% irrelevant inside Abyssea.

I think it's peoples' screenshots demonstrating 4k+ Smites and Furies on the Jeuno & Outlands T3 VNMs at lvl 95 that got SE's attention and showed that the WS are simply overpowered. I've never seen a Kaggen or Pil go down as fast as when we had 3+ 90Ukon WARs smashing them, and the groups I generally run with don't even normally allow non-relic/mythic/emp DDs.

If you really don't think Ukko's is unreasonably overpowered, you have a worse grasp of game balance than SE does.

Modoru

12-22-2011, 04:55 PM

THF says hi, we get to do nothing except treasure hunter, but okay, have fun with your high numbers, we'll pull off a cool SC whenever we can get bully up.

if the mob's still alive by then.

but hey, if we do, the whole party gets pissed.

being a THF is fun, ain't it?

Insaniac

12-22-2011, 04:57 PM

That would make sense if SE hadn't created these WSs. They knew the beast they were setting loose when they plugged in the variables for the WS. It's not like they just type in numbers and go "lets see what this does lol" no matter how much it seems like that's the case sometimes.

Orson

12-22-2011, 05:19 PM

Adventurers seeking to reach the absolute pinnacle of power better watch out because we'll be balancing the #$%& out of everything to make sure it feels like next to nothing has changed. PUPDATE FTW!!!!!!! New abilities at 99? nope. New weaponskills at 99? Sure but they'll be equal or suck worse than previous ones. New gear for everyone? Naaaaaaah with our wildly random, droprates and loot tables you can repeat the same fights over and over ad infinitum because someone in your group is bound to be screwed out of the piece they want.

Seriously what the heck is wrong with SE? All people really wanted was a slightly more challenging experience than Abyssea. Now they just seem to be going back to their same terrible practices. When was the last time we had so many nerfs? They could have easily just improved the new weaponskills that came out to compete with War and Mnk, but no they have to weaken classes. This with the advent of a new level cap supposedly raising everyone's power, are you kidding me?? It's the most backwards way of doing things I've ever seen.

Arcon

12-22-2011, 05:50 PM

I still wanna know, finish my Ukkon? Or move on to my Cor's Armageddon? Is it still worth getting? I know we havent seen any tests, and this is all just on paper. But I dont wanna keep busting my ass dual boxing for this weapon, when the WS turns out to be the same dmg as Ragin Rush or something lol

Not sure why you're asking, seeing how we don't know the extent of the nerf yet. It's not even on the test servers yet. It's possible they'll completely gimp the WS. It's also possible it won't be noticeable at all. We don't know yet.

My bet is that Ukko's will still be great, just not as great. But anything on this is pure speculation.

For the record: Anyone that's like "THESE WS BEEN AROUND FOR A YEAR WITHOUT NERFS WHY NOW?!" well until recently, we didn't have legitimate high-level content to use them on. Abyssea doesn't count. The crit RATE modifiers on the WS are 99% irrelevant inside Abyssea.

They're not. Not because the damage output actually matters, but because it shows how much Ukko's is better than other WS. If they see Ukko's Fury doing 3~4 times the damage of a normal WS inside Abyssea, they can reasonable assume that it'll do at least twice the damage of other WS outside too. Also, even if it was just about VW, it's also been out for over half a year already, which is more than enough time to realize it. You just seem to be looking for reasons for why they would do this. No one disagrees that Ukko's was overpowered, it doesn't change the fact that this is a completely dick move.

[..] being a THF is fun, ain't it?

Your point being... nothing, I guess? Wrong thread?

casual

12-22-2011, 06:27 PM

Obtain level 99, deal less damage than 90. Grats MNK and WAR. How can they seriously announce things like this, and even add a silly little picture to go along with it? Do they seriously think adding that picture is going to inspire anything but rage among anyone who owns an Ukon or Verethragna?

Scribble

12-22-2011, 07:32 PM

Not sure why you're asking, seeing how we don't know the extent of the nerf yet. It's not even on the test servers yet. It's possible they'll completely gimp the WS. It's also possible it won't be noticeable at all. We don't know yet.

Wait a fucking minute... You mean to tell me that all this bitching, all the fucking crying and moaning swirling around warriors now is about a nerf that NO ONE HAS TESTED!?!?! NO ONE EVEN KNOWS HOW MUCH THEY WILL BE EFFECTED??? Man, you guys... you don't need to be hit with the nerf hammer, you need to be mashed to a pulp and then bent over for being babies about nothing.

Just because your AF3 looks like a tiara doesn't mean you guys should act like princesses. Toughen up pussies.

Alderin

12-22-2011, 07:55 PM

If they are going to nerf something - nerf Shoha... WAR is a brute. Meant to be the heavy 2-h DD. SAM is skilled in 2h katana arts - meant to be able to build devastating combo's..

Instead they are taking away what they do best and that is damage. SAM has their own way to deal it and that is pump out 30% more weapon skills then any other job. Of course their hits arent meant to be as hard.

I feel sorry for the Masa SAM's on the most recent update however.. Now anyone can pick up a TP Bonus katana that can be built in an EXP party, merit shoha and deal the same if not more damage then someone who grinds it out for a legendary weapon.

If they are nerfing Ukko's & Blood rage, they need to nerf Shoha also.

Alderin

12-22-2011, 08:18 PM

how are the jp's reacting to this?

Not well.. camping Ratatoskr with 2x JP WAR's and they arent happy.

newmonkey

12-22-2011, 08:42 PM

Linku

12-22-2011, 08:44 PM

I just did some testing of Ukko's Fury pre and post nerf.

Pre~100% | Pre 300%
Min 831 | Min 1663
Max 3277 | Max 3306
Avg 1973.3 | Avg 2789.2

Post~100% | Post 300%
Min 1374 | Min 1670
Max 2687 | Max 3223
Avg 1780.2 | Avg 2356

~9.8% dmg drop at ~100% TP
~15.5% dmg drop at 300% TP

This test was done on Lesser Colibri, wearing full Empyrean+2, Goading Belt, Heed Ring, Rajas Ring, lvl90 Ukonvasara, Pole Grip, Atheling Mantle, Brutal Earring, Ravager's Earring, Ravager's Orb, Agasaya's Collar. No /ja were used.

Scribble

12-22-2011, 09:49 PM

Babekeke

12-22-2011, 10:46 PM

Dam this nerf, now other jobs will be able to take part in events, not just mnks and wars!

FrankReynolds

12-22-2011, 10:53 PM

I honestly doubt he can.

?sigh you were right.

You can shut the hell up Orson you were one of the idiots who were laughing at relics holders when the 85 empyreans came out, pay back is a bitch isn't it.

I feel like some one is really sad in their pants about something, and never learned how to properly express themselves. It's ok, babies scream nonsense because they don't know the words too.

On a related note: I doubt this nerf will be as bad as people are making it out to be. However, I don't think they should be nerfing anything when they still haven't given most jobs any of the boosts and or tweaks that they have been promising for like a year now. Nerfing for balance = fail.

scaevola

12-22-2011, 11:18 PM

No one disagrees that Ukko's was overpowered, it doesn't change the fact that this is a completely dick move.

Uh, if it was overpowered, then it almost necessarily follows that nerfing it is not a dick move.

Unless you're suggesting SE is nerfing VSmite and Ukko's out of spite, which is literally medically-actionable paranoia.

Chriscoffey

12-22-2011, 11:30 PM

You can shut the hell up Orson you were one of the idiots who were laughing at relics holders when the 85 empyreans came out, pay back is a bitch isn't it.

This made my morning lol.

Arcon

12-22-2011, 11:38 PM

Wait a fucking minute... You mean to tell me that all this bitching, all the fucking crying and moaning swirling around warriors now is about a nerf that NO ONE HAS TESTED!?!?! NO ONE EVEN KNOWS HOW MUCH THEY WILL BE EFFECTED???

You seem to be bitching more than all the WARs in here combined. Also, the degree of the nerf doesn't matter at all for what people are complaining about. Even if they only lowered the critical hit rate by 5% it would still be a reason to complain, because it's not what people paid time and money for. They paid for the weapon we have right now, not a worse version of it. What if someone had to decide between which empyrean weapon to take to 95, and while other weapons weren't as good they would have preferred them. However, in the end they were swayed to go with Ukonvasara, because it was just good enough to overshadow the importance other weapon. Now SE go and nerf it, and whoever spent 200M gil on it basically just got an anal probe. Whether they lower the critical hit rate by 5% or 30%, it doesn't matter. That person got screwed for their decision, even though it was made completely rationally and to the best of their knowledge.

Uh, if it was overpowered, then it almost necessarily follows that nerfing it is not a dick move.

Selective reading much? I said like three times that it's the timing that bothers people, not the nerfing itself. If they realized it was a mistake (which should have taken them 10 weapon skills to figure out) and nerfed it, it would have been understandable. Leaving it like this for over a year, making people invest months and hundred millions of gil in this weapon, not a weaker version of the weapon, and then nerfing it - dick move. That's the difference. I'm not saying they're doing it deliberately to piss people off, but by doing this they clearly show no respect for people who invested major parts of their free time this last year into this achievement.

scaevola

12-22-2011, 11:57 PM

I agree they delayed longer than they should have, but this is not a reason to never nerf it, ever. My heart bleeds for those intrepid unfortunates who braved the monumental task of killing Glavoid a bunch of times, but there it is. If you agree that Ukko's is too powerful (if indeed you agree with this, which you should, because it is), when could we have scheduled the nerf to come down so that it wouldn't be so offensive to your delicate sensibilities?

The best weapon in the game has been nerfed to....still be the best weapon in the game.

scaevola

12-23-2011, 12:10 AM

Also, serious megalolz at people wringing their hands over OMG ALL MY HARD WORK after a year of sounding the drum about how anybody can get an 85 empyrean in less than a week.

Arcon

12-23-2011, 12:19 AM

[..] when could we have scheduled the nerf to come down so that it wouldn't be so offensive to your delicate sensibilities?

Anytime before they added the 95 trial. Who cares about Glavoid? And even that takes some people weeks to finish, because they casually do it with a friend or two hunting NMs a few times a week, not farming KIs with an entire alliance to get it done in three days. But the real cock punch was doing that after they released a ridiculous trial knowing that people will spend massive amounts of money on it (and even if they didn't know before, they would after seeing for themselves).

Call it whatever you want, the amount hardly matters anyway. What matters is that people will feel betrayed by this. Why should they ever wanna invest in anything, knowing SE may gimp it at a whim? Was it a mistake of them to invest in it? You may say yes, but think about it... if this really was the best weapon, wouldn't that precisely be the reason why you'd invest in it? Or should we always wait a year to see if SE won't nerf it first, just to be safe?

Scribble

12-23-2011, 12:25 AM

You seem to be bitching more than all the WARs in here combined. Also, the degree of the nerf doesn't matter at all for what people are complaining about. Even if they only lowered the critical hit rate by 5% it would still be a reason to complain, because it's not what people paid time and money for. They paid for the weapon we have right now, not a worse version of it. What if someone had to decide between which empyrean weapon to take to 95, and while other weapons weren't as good they would have preferred them. However, in the end they were swayed to go with Ukonvasara, because it was just good enough to overshadow the importance other weapon. Now SE go and nerf it, and whoever spent 200M gil on it basically just got an anal probe. Whether they lower the critical hit rate by 5% or 30%, it doesn't matter. That person got screwed for their decision, even though it was made completely rationally and to the best of their knowledge.

You spent time for a great weapon and Ukon is still a great weapon. The relatively miniscule time investment to get said weapon to a point where it's above all other options is so small that it magnifies the amount of tears being shed here. You'd have a point if it took more than a week, and that's pacing yourself, to actually acquire it. You'd have a point if it were nerfed below any of the other GA currently available.

If you paid for a Ukon(pre 90) then you were doinitwrong. Unless you actually have a 95 Ukon then the investment in plates doesn't apply to the argument. The level 90 version is still atop the rest of your options iirc. Even at level 90, pre-nerf this weapon was overpowered and at worst will make the playing field level again. Problem? Solved.

I have nothing against warriors in general, but I can't subscribe to feeling bad for them because their greatest weapon, which remains their greatest weapon post-nerf, is now omgawesome instead of wtfoverpowered.

Edit: There are many people spending their precious time and money for weapons that don't provide as much benefit to their damage dealing capabilities as a nerfed Ukon will for a warrior...

Neisan_Quetz

12-23-2011, 12:45 AM

Dam this nerf, now other jobs will be able to take part in events, not just mnks and wars!

No? This nerf isn't going to make other DD anymore popular than they already are, I'm sorry. We'll just all do less damage now with this combined with the BR nerf.

Arcon

12-23-2011, 12:49 AM

You spent time for a great weapon and Ukon is still a great weapon. The relatively miniscule time investment to get said weapon to a point where it's above all other options is so small that it magnifies the amount of tears being shed here. You'd have a point if it took more than a week, and that's pacing yourself, to actually acquire it. You'd have a point if it were nerfed below any of the other GA currently available.

No, it takes you a week, pacing yourself. It takes most people weeks, playing as they can. Call it "doinitwrong" if you want, it doesn't change the fact that many people invest a whole lot of effort into it. If that effort was ill-spent or not, that's another issue entirely.

I hate this thread. Not because of the legitimacy of the complaint (which there is), but because people post in it for the wrong reasons. Which gives people like you fuel to go against them. Most of what you said is right. Whining about the actual nerf before we know what it is is retarded (as I also pointed out in the 99 trial thread, which is equally useless). But people do have a right to complain about SE punishing them for a decision they made based on the facts that SE presented us with over a year ago, which they're now about to change (namely, the factual strength of the weapon).

Edit: There are many people spending their precious time and money for weapons that don't provide as much benefit to their damage dealing capabilities as a nerfed Ukon will for a warrior...

They do so of their own free will though. They know that their effort isn't for the best empyrean weapon and they're ok with it (apparently, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it). This is not about a strength comparison, this is about us being able to trust SE with what they do.

Sadly, this game is a large timesink. And sadly, some decisions will cost a whole lot of that. So before we invest into something, we want to know what it does, we want to know exactly how hard it will be to achieve and what we will gain from it. Otherwise you can expect a shitstorm from the community, as can be witnessed here. SE should have known better.

Krosis

12-23-2011, 12:54 AM

I wish I could like Arcon's statement more than just once

Scribble

12-23-2011, 12:58 AM

No, it takes you a week, pacing yourself. It takes most people weeks, playing as they can. Call it "doinitwrong" if you want, it doesn't change the fact that many people invest a whole lot of effort into it. If that effort was ill-spent or not, that's another issue entirely.

I have no issue with people putting in effort. If you are paying for people to farm items for you prior to plates then yes, you're doinitwrong because you don't actually put forth that effort(farming aside). You say you're being punished, but you still don't know to what extent or if it ever requires the weight that the word 'punishment' brings.

This is not about a strength comparison, this is about us being able to trust SE with what they do.

I disagree. Most people are upset because job x will now be closer to their output. Those who are reserving judgement until the changes are implemented are at least being reasonable about it, but I'd guess that most of those wouldn't be bothered to go beyond 90 Ukon anyway.

Neisan_Quetz

12-23-2011, 01:19 AM

BR buffs the entire party, removing the Crit Damage increase from it is actually going to make everyone deal less damage for no real reason.

Chriscoffey

12-23-2011, 01:24 AM

Anytime before they added the 95 trial. Who cares about Glavoid? And even that takes some people weeks to finish, because they casually do it with a friend or two hunting NMs a few times a week, not farming KIs with an entire alliance to get it done in three days. But the real cock punch was doing that after they released a ridiculous trial knowing that people will spend massive amounts of money on it (and even if they didn't know before, they would after seeing for themselves).

Call it whatever you want, the amount hardly matters anyway. What matters is that people will feel betrayed by this. Why should they ever wanna invest in anything, knowing SE may gimp it at a whim? Was it a mistake of them to invest in it? You may say yes, but think about it... if this really was the best weapon, wouldn't that precisely be the reason why you'd invest in it? Or should we always wait a year to see if SE won't nerf it first, just to be safe?
Come tell me that after they shit down dark knights throat with that Apocalypse haste nerf cap. SE CAN and WILL blow any melee down to shit like they have dark as long as Sam is on top. Many people spent years to get Apocalypse for just that reason.

Yes it was broken but by your arguments sake it should still be top DD because of the vast amount of time spent which was way more than any Uko. warrior ever dreamed of spending. They took the zerg end game out of the zerg end game job and gave it to every other melee which now have way more potential. I guess cry me a fucking river because dark has dealt with this for a long time now with SE trolling them.

It just amazes me at the same people who spent their time saying dark are emo melee are the same ones blowing up the forums with this emo shit. This isn't even a bad nerf compared to the shit dark has been trolled with. Hell let me have a RR version for scythe(same mods)to use and I would be happy.

FrankReynolds

12-23-2011, 01:46 AM

This whole thread is like a boiling pooh stew full of crabs in a pot. Every A-hole with a keyboard talking about how glad they are that some other guys hard work got dumped on, when they should be using it to ask SE why they are busy nerfing shit instead of applying the fixes and updates needed / promised for other jobs and content.

http://louispagan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/crabs-in-a-bucket-poster.jpg

Arcon

12-23-2011, 01:56 AM

Come tell me that after they shit down dark knights throat with that Apocalypse haste nerf cap.

You even whine about other whiners. And you come in here, telling us about how much you whined and how you whined first and how now we come and infringe upon your rights as whiners. Man you DRK are emo. Seriously.

Just for the record, no one said they were happy about any previous nerfs. I really don't know why DRK, RNG and THF come in here and say shit like "We've had it even worse, you don't get to complain!", who the fuck cares? The WAR who complain because now other jobs may be better are stupid. That's not an argument. It's not a race. But you guys who come in here just to gloat about how now WAR sucks (big news: it doesn't) are equally stupid. This about sums it up perfectly:

http://louispagan.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/crabs-in-a-bucket-poster.jpg

Chriscoffey

12-23-2011, 02:03 AM

You even whine about other whiners. And you come in here, telling us about how much you whined and how you whined first and how now we come and infringe upon your rights as whiners. Man you DRK are emo. Seriously.

Just for the record, no one said they were happy about any previous nerfs. I really don't know why DRK, RNG and THF come in here and say shit like "We've had it even worse, you don't get to complain!", who the fuck cares? The WAR who complain because now other jobs may be better are stupid. That's not an argument. It's not a race. But you guys who come in here just to gloat about how now WAR sucks (big news: it doesn't) are equally stupid. This about sums it up perfectly:
You were the moron who started in with the "time used to get X item" argument or being betrayed because SE adjusts a job. I could give a damn less bud I have most all these jobs to use so doesn't make a damn to me. I just find it funny you start this emo fest about someone spending time to do something and being betrayed then in the very next fucking sentence you tell me I'm emo because I give an example that SE nerf'd dark knight with haste nerf while buffing everyone else to godly proportions after people spent their time (even years not weeks) to complete it. You are pretty much a damn bias person to say the least.

FrankReynolds

12-23-2011, 02:21 AM

Arcon

12-23-2011, 02:26 AM

You were the moron who started in with the "time used to get X item" argument or being betrayed because SE adjusts a job. I could give a damn less bud I have most all these jobs to use so doesn't make a damn to me. I just find it funny you start this emo fest about someone spending time to do something and being betrayed then in the very next fucking sentence you tell me I'm emo because I give an example that SE nerf'd dark knight with haste nerf while buffing everyone else to godly proportions after people spent their time (even years not weeks) to complete it. You are pretty much a damn bias person to say the least.

Just for the record, no one said they were happy about any previous nerfs.

That includes me. I call most DRK whiners for a lot of reasons, none of which include the Haste nerf (unless they're being particularly annoying about it). For that matter, I also call a lot of WAR whiners for a lot of reasons (even in this thread), none of which include gimping Ukko's. I called you a whiner because you came in here and bitch about how much worse you've had it and that we shouldn't be complaining. It had nothing at all to do with Apocalypse. As usual, you bitch about nothing. Whiner.

Oh and as a side note: the 20% delay cap affects a lot of jobs, not just DRK. It wasn't an "Apocalypse" nerf, it was a nerf that pulled Apocalypse down with it. Admittedly, that doesn't make it better for people going for Apocalypse, then again, no one said that it did. You just assumed that.

Chriscoffey

12-23-2011, 02:32 AM

That includes me. I call most DRK whiners for a lot of reasons, none of which include the Haste nerf (unless they're being particularly annoying about it). For that matter, I also call a lot of WAR whiners for a lot of reasons (even in this thread), none of which include gimping Ukko's. I called you a whiner because you came in here and bitch about how much worse you've had it and that we shouldn't be complaining. It had nothing at all to do with Apocalypse. As usual, you bitch about nothing. Whiner.

Oh and as a side note: the 20% delay cap affects a lot of jobs, not just DRK. It wasn't an "Apocalypse" nerf, it was a nerf that pulled Apocalypse down with it. Admittedly, that doesn't make it better for people who went for Apocalypse, then again, no one said that it did. You just assumed that.
I had to adjust that because comparing what apocalypse is now to what it was then is not only a farce comparison but it by no means shows a representable presentation of just how broken Apocalypse was during that time when other melee didn't have even close to the power they do now or haste.

My point was that people who went for Apocalypse (this includes me and my first apoc) who spent years to complete it then it being nerfed and everyone else adjusted to the zerg extreme clearly is in line with what you said about people doing weapons for what they were before a nerf. This after you called me emo for mentioning what is clearly a fact of the game and irked me at the time much like this is bothering warriors ,however, this being a much smaller scale of nerf by comparison to that time.

Kriegsgott

12-23-2011, 02:33 AM

this update made me lol i like it ;)

Neisan_Quetz

12-23-2011, 02:37 AM

this update made me lol i like it ;)

So you're happy other people get nerfed, because it doesn't affect your relic.

That really is lame.

newmonkey

12-23-2011, 02:42 AM

So you're happy other people get nerfed, because it doesn't affect your relic.

That really is lame.

Oh look here you're only crying because you have a ukon yes ? I don't get how thick those blinkers you have on must be to have not been able to see the ws was overpowered i swear you people forget ukon has an amazing aftermath.

Kriegsgott

12-23-2011, 02:43 AM

So you're happy other people get nerfed, because it doesn't affect your relic.

That really is lame.

looks like i'm missing the relic part on my prev post -.-
or you ar a special smart one ?!

Neisan_Quetz

12-23-2011, 02:47 AM

Oh look here you're only crying because you have a ukon yes ? I don't get how thick those blinkers you have on must be to have not been able to see the ws was overpowered i swear you people forget ukon has an amazing aftermath.

Yes, it has the same amazing aftermath... as every other Emp Weapon. So instead of asking for buffs/removing penalties so other jobs would be more popular, you're happy someone else is nerfed, which doesn't change anything about other jobs, and just makes it so we all do less damage.

looks like i'm missing the relic part on my prev post -.-
or you ar a special smart one ?!

I can't fathom why any monk would be happy VS was getting nerfed unless they weren't using VS in the first place.

Kriegsgott

12-23-2011, 02:54 AM

FrankReynolds

12-23-2011, 02:58 AM

tbh i'm not a big abyssea friend this made people lazy and if SE going to fix/balance or just move away from all the easy Abyssea work i'm happy about it
> this has nothing to do with my relic serously....

If this nerf is really bad, it could actually mean that people end up going back and doing more abyssea, to build a different weapon.

Neisan_Quetz

12-23-2011, 02:59 AM

*More dynamis in Mnk's case

LCofPandy

12-23-2011, 03:18 AM

Unfortunately no matter what we say nor what we do (aside from mass quiting) The Devs and Tanaka will not listen to the player base and continue to do what ever they please.

Chamaan

12-23-2011, 05:10 AM

I got money that says Upheaval and Shijin Spiral get nerfed again so that they're still weaker than the newly weakened Ukko's and VSmite.

FrankReynolds

12-23-2011, 05:22 AM

I got money that says Upheaval and Shijin Spiral get nerfed again so that they're still weaker than the newly weakened Ukko's and VSmite.

Blah... I hope not, I was really considering building spharai. Oh well I guess they are pretty damn good either way.

Smokehaze

12-23-2011, 07:36 AM

This is making many players angry. First the fact that war only has melee dmg going for it. And that war's got hardly anything good from the 99 update, where other jobs got many nice pieces of new gear, and abilities. To nerf our dmg is like a knife in the back. I'am not the only one that feels this way, please read this thread. http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/27607/dev1063-job-adjustments-warrior/14/

Originalkord

12-23-2011, 10:10 AM

I never post on forums and generally keep to myself when it comes to this game and "lolz," but I just wanted to add my two cents to this nerf business.

This is just another instance of a total disrespect to their entire player base. I know I am not saying anything new here at this point, but the laziness of this development team astounds me to no end. "We need balance, time to ratchet back damage." Really? Thats the best you can all come up with? You should be ashamed of yourselves. If you felt WAR and MNK did too much damage then why not add CONTENT to make it useful?! OR, maybe raise the stats on other jobs to put them on a similar level? I'd really like to hear the rationale over this one.

I don't understand why people whine and complain about a WS being overpowered--is having a party member with a ridiculously powerful WS HURTING you in any way shape or form? There is no legitimate PvP in this game, so whats the source of your complaint? Let me tell you what you're crusading against. So, you're a THF working on a Twashtar? I bet you REALLY hate the fact that the Ukon WAR that's helping you is killing Glavoid to get YOUR drops too quickly. That would grind my gears, too. You wanna do big damage too? Ok, pass on the Twashtar and get an Ukon. Logical. The challenge is out of this game, and its not because WAR and MNK do too much damage.

I personally want to thank you, Square-Enix, for robbing me of my time and hard earned money. You've successfully made my past 8 months or so in this game a complete and utter waste. You are 100% out of touch with your player base, and you are KIDDING yourselves if you think you have the slightest idea of what we want.

Glacont

12-23-2011, 10:19 AM

I never post on forums and generally keep to myself when it comes to this game and "lolz," but I just wanted to add my two cents to this nerf business.

This is just another instance of a total disrespect to their entire player base. I know I am not saying anything new here at this point, but the laziness of this development astounds me to no end. "We need balance, time to ratchet back damage." Really? Thats the best you can all come up with? You should be ashamed of yourselves. If you felt WAR and MNK did too much damage then why not add CONTENT to make it useful?! OR, maybe raise the stats on other jobs to put them on a similar level? I'd really like to hear the rationale over this one.

I don't understand why people whine and complain about a WS being overpowered--is having a party member with a ridiculously powerful WS HURTING you in any way shape or form? There is no legitimate PvP in this game, so whats the source of your complaint? So, you're a THF working on a Twashtar? I bet you REALLY hate the fact that the Ukon WAR that's helping you is killing Glavoid to get YOUR drops too quickly. That would grind my gears, too. You wanna do big damage too? Ok, pass on the Twashtar and get an Ukon. Logical. The challenge is out of this game, and its not because WAR and MNK do too much damage.

I personally want to thank you, Square-Enix, for robbing me of my time and hard earned money. You've successfully made my past 8 months or so in this game a complete and utter waste. You are 100% out of touch with your player base, and you are KIDDING yourselves if you think you have the slightest idea of what we want.

Good Man. 100% Support.

Siiri

12-23-2011, 10:24 AM

Originalkord

12-23-2011, 10:29 AM

The issue is when voidwatch fights become dominated by Wars, which is what has happened. I remember asking a former ls leader about fighting Qilin, and was told just bring 2 Ukko Wars and you can do anything in game. Seriously people just want an instant win button on War and Ukko being horribly broke to the expense of not allowing other jobs to participate in content? I realize SE is horrible at balance and now they just buffing up SAM, but any true attempt at Tanaka balance has to include nerfing Ukko. How can people not see this? Do people think having a horribly over powered weapon skill makes them a more skilled player? It just means the joke of a balance swung your way for a bit. This game is awful at any true balance though.

Disagree.

People do NOT want an instant win button. They win by playing the hand they're dealt. Go fight Akvan and have it cast instant death on your entire party multiple times. That's not challenging, thats artificial difficulty. I recall plenty of early attempts to handle voidwatch with the old school party set ups of PLDs, Stun Orders, and the like. Compound that with the fact you were stacking your parties with PUPs and DRGs for procs and you have yourself a pretty rotten situation. Problem was that it seemed like every mob could kill you whenever it wanted. You had to proc, but you had to stay alive too.

So whats the resolution (the resolution ws was seen doing 10k, nerfy nerfy)? "Well we've tried what we THOUGHT makes sense....let's see if more DD works." And it did. Why did it work? Cause that's how SE built the system. Players did what the game dictated they had to do. I don't think anyone was originally looking for an instant win, but when a body drop is like .1% as it is, I'd be pretty irked if someone built a party with a set up for fail.

Tagrineth

12-23-2011, 12:28 PM

Chaz

12-23-2011, 12:42 PM

I keep hearing that WAR is overpowered, which made me think. Is it? So I would like to ask this question, if you put WAR up head to head with every other job, would he win them all? Would he win any?

So lets do this....Put WAR up against SAM, lock their sub-jobs and give them 100,000 hp to take luck mostly out of the equation. Who wins? Now WAR vs NIN, WAR vs THF, WAR vs RDM, WAR vs BLK...ect, ect all the way down the line.

Now if WAR is as OP as advertised then he will win them all, right?

So, which ones does WAR win?

Originalkord

12-23-2011, 12:55 PM

lol you're fucking stupid.

To wit: Yes, someone with a WS that powerful IS essentially hurting anyone that's not a WAR with Ukonvasara.

If I want damage and the target is a very sturdy high-level NM, why the hell would I invite anything else given the option? It turns the game into LOL WARRIOR SPAM GGNORE. Remember how SAM and DRK were literally the only endgame DD in the game pre-abyssea? Let's go back to those days except WAR instead of DRK!

Do you failures really not see the issue with Ukko's Fury doing 5-6k damage vs targets that other jobs are lucky to break 3k on? Or why it would be utterly catastrophic to give every job an Ukko's Fury equivalent WS?

Fucking stupid eh? When that's you're opening line, drivel is almost sure to follow.

Well, let's see how you feel when you're part of the large majority that are affected by this. You're a short sighted fool. People are not just up in arms because because there is a nerf, it goes well beyond that. Square-Enix's solution to a poor balanced game has ALWAYS been to take the thing that people complain about being the most "broken" and pull it so far back that the downgrade itself creates a greater inbalance. Remember Ranger? Ninja? Red Mage?

Where we find ourselves right now is what the devs allowed the game to be for so long, and people have a right to be angry. Instead of being creative and doing a true REBALANCE, they're taking the lazy way out again, and doing you, as a paying customer, a disservice. You do realize that they've effectively replaced an overpowered WAR with an overpowered SAM, correct? Vsmite MNKs will become Spharai MNKs. What did they fix? I guess you enjoy throwing money away. I'm the stupid one though. Forgive me for being among the group that rather see additional CONTENT, which is a better way to serve your customer base, and create balance.
.
I also don't buy the whole "If I want damage why would I invite anything else blahblahblah" argument, simply because of the fact we're not talking about how the game used to be. You're inviting jobs for procs in abyssea and VW. What NM exists outside of these that you NEED big damage on? Exactly. When you low man seals are you taking WARs? Probably not--you're taking BLM/BRD, NIN (or THF/NIN), a WHM, BLU, and a BRD. When youre doing Voidwatch are you ONLY inviting WARs? Probably not. Let's not even get on the subject of job versatility. If someone is going to complain that they can't enjoy content because they're DRG only then they have more problems than that alone.

You'll get no disagreement from me if you told me WAR is overpowered. I'll politely disagree, however, if you try to sell me on this being a legitimate solution. History tells you that you're wrong.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm taking my Masamune and maxing Shoha.

Arcon

12-23-2011, 02:39 PM

So, which ones does WAR win?

Not sure what your point was? How is this in any way relevant to the topic?

Fucking stupid eh? When that's you're opening line, drivel is almost sure to follow.

Not as often as people think. People like to take a defensive stance as soon as they get personally attacked which often leads to lapses in judgment.

You're correct in most of what you're saying, mostly in that this nerf won't fix anything. However, you still don't have all of your facts right. WAR do get invited over others, constantly, and usually because of their Ukonvasara. Even in VW, where it's beneficial to have as many jobs as possible, WAR will still have higher priority when it comes to DDs, sometimes there'll even be 3 or 4 of them, also solely due to Ukonvasara. And I can tell you right now, if there wasn't a need to proc, there'd be 10 of them. And sure, beginner parties will often want a NIN as a tank/DD for seal parties, however there's hardly any mob that can't be efficiently tanked/held by a WAR. If it comes to job choices for seal parties, you either take THF or WAR (or both). MNK is also pretty good, if you use it to DD and don't come /NIN.

WAR does have a huge leading role atm, one that other jobs cannot compare to. Again, my only beef with SE is for them taking so long to get around to doing this. This is how the WS should have been since day one. This move I can't really agree with, but I'd hate to be in their situation, because any other fix I could think of would involve gimping WAR itself (like the Blood Rage nerf), which would only hurt non-Ukonvasara WARs and even other players in the party as well. Unless you count the "fix" to buff every other DD to the same level, which I personally dislike even more.

Vazerus

12-23-2011, 03:00 PM

My post was removed or something... All I had said was this update might not be too bad for non Ukkos users, depending on the buffs to Double Attack and Critical Attack Bonus.

Scribble

12-23-2011, 03:03 PM

WAR does have a huge leading role atm, one that other jobs cannot compare to. Again, my only beef with SE is for them taking so long to get around to doing this. This is how the WS should have been since day one.

You're suggesting that they'd balance the game prior to releasing several levels, many geared toward abyssea content and lately, more geared toward VW. From the perspective of a developer, it makes little sense to try and balance some aspect of the game given the fact that it will be completely different 3 months down the road.

It would be about as easy to maintain balance throughout that time as it is to change a wheel on a moving vehicle.

Neisan_Quetz

12-23-2011, 03:10 PM

My post was removed or something... All I had said was this update might not be too bad for non Ukkos users, depending on the buffs to Double Attack and Critical Attack Bonus.

Double Attack is +2% and critical attack bonus is Tier 3, which is +3%. This was tested on the Test server by Byrth before SE ninja removed both in an update.

BR being up 20% of the time was a +4% Critical damage boost overall for everyone.

You're suggesting that they'd balance the game prior to releasing several levels, many geared toward abyssea content and lately, more geared toward VW. From the perspective of a developer, it makes little sense to try and balance some aspect of the game given the fact that it will be completely different 3 months down the road.

It would be about as easy to maintain balance throughout that time as it is to change a wheel on a moving vehicle.

The question remains if the critical hit rate of both was the problem why did it take them over a year to realize this? I can live with UF being nerfed (I'm still going to complain about it, who likes being nerfed) but VS is especially perplexing because it was only roughly 5% above CDC/Hi. Having restraint halved and UF cut wasn't bad enough? They got to nerf BR too, which helped buff the pt's damage? Like I said earlier, all this does is make everyone deal less damage. It hasn't fixed any issues. People aren't going to start clamoring for more pups in VW.

Chaz

12-23-2011, 03:14 PM

Not sure what your point was? How is this in any way relevant to the topic?

Completely relevant. If WAR is overpowered compared to every other job, it would win against every job hands down. And you didn't answer. Don't worry, its ok, I'd be scared to answer if I was you too.

Neisan_Quetz

12-23-2011, 04:17 PM

PVP argument is stupid, that is all.

Tagrineth

12-23-2011, 04:24 PM

Fucking stupid eh? When that's you're opening line, drivel is almost sure to follow.

I like how you open with this, then proceed to answer what you consider drivel. What does that make your response...?

Well, let's see how you feel when you're part of the large majority that are affected by this. You're a short sighted fool. People are not just up in arms because because there is a nerf, it goes well beyond that. Square-Enix's solution to a poor balanced game has ALWAYS been to take the thing that people complain about being the most "broken" and pull it so far back that the downgrade itself creates a greater inbalance. Remember Ranger? Ninja? Red Mage?

You just took an arrow to the knee by mentioning Ranger. Ranger was RIDICULOUSLY BROKEN before they FIXED it. Did they over-nerf it? Yeah, sure they did. But there's absolutely no denying that RNG was by an insurmountable margin the only relevant endgame DD, period.

The only Ninja nerf I can think of was "lose enmity when shadows are hit" which turned out to be GAMEBREAKING amirite?!

Where we find ourselves right now is what the devs allowed the game to be for so long, and people have a right to be angry. Instead of being creative and doing a true REBALANCE, they're taking the lazy way out again, and doing you, as a paying customer, a disservice. You do realize that they've effectively replaced an overpowered WAR with an overpowered SAM, correct? Vsmite MNKs will become Spharai MNKs. What did they fix? I guess you enjoy throwing money away. I'm the stupid one though. Forgive me for being among the group that rather see additional CONTENT, which is a better way to serve your customer base, and create balance.

1. Balance doesn't just involve making jobs better. Balance means making everything more equal. Which means things WILL sometimes need to be toned down, that's just a fact.

2. I don't see how changing the subject to Samurais is in any way relevant.

3. Throwing money away? OH NO you're right this nerf's fallout will end up deleting my character and deleveling all your jobs to 10

4. How does new content "create balance"? Voidwatch did a little bit toward it but even in Voidwatch, it's very common to see T3+ groups bring 3-4 Ukonvasara Warriors, because they're so vastly superior to basically every other DD in the game. This is a fact. The only way "new content" can alter balance is by making different shit overpowered, and in this case they'd have to make content that nerfs the hell out of critical hits - which would bring DRK and SAM back to the forefront with the most powerful non-crit WS. Which ISN'T BALANCE, EITHER.

I also don't buy the whole "If I want damage why would I invite anything else blahblahblah" argument, simply because of the fact we're not talking about how the game used to be. You're inviting jobs for procs in abyssea and VW. What NM exists outside of these that you NEED big damage on? Exactly. When you low man seals are you taking WARs? Probably not--you're taking BLM/BRD, NIN (or THF/NIN), a WHM, BLU, and a BRD. When youre doing Voidwatch are you ONLY inviting WARs? Probably not. Let's not even get on the subject of job versatility. If someone is going to complain that they can't enjoy content because they're DRG only then they have more problems than that alone.

I like how you use the irreparably unbalanced Abyssea as part of your argument.

You'll get no disagreement from me if you told me WAR is overpowered. I'll politely disagree, however, if you try to sell me on this being a legitimate solution. History tells you that you're wrong.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm taking my Masamune and maxing Shoha.

So what would YOU do to nerf Warrior? Not nerf their bullshit-OP WS? Or would you nerf the Warrior itself to the point that Ukko's ISN'T overpowered anymore - in doing so making non-Ukonvasara WARs the most useless job in the game? Gimme a better solution than nerfing Ukko's and you'll have my attention. :|

Also: WRT the Blood Rage nerf, I think their issue with it is how a WAR cluster can not only crush things far too easily with Ukko spam, but also empower one another to an insane degree with timed BRs.

Arcon

12-23-2011, 08:35 PM

And you didn't answer. Don't worry, its ok, I'd be scared to answer if I was you too.

So, if I asked you why you are such an idiot and you would defend yourself instead of explaining to me why you're such an idiot, I can assume that you're just too scared to answer? No, I can't, because that's a logical fallacy. I didn't answer because it's still irrelevant. If you can convince me that giving you an answer to your question would settle the question of whether or not WAR was overpowered, I would answer, but I doubt you'll be able to convince me, seeing how reasoning isn't your strong suit. You have three glaring flaws in your first sentence alone and since I'm so nice, I'll walk you through them slowly:

If WAR is overpowered compared to every other job [..]

Who says it is? Who says overpowered is at all related to other jobs? If you give every job a WS that deals 9999 damage, all the time, they'd all be roughly equally strong. Is that not overpowered anymore? Overpowered doesn't have to mean overpowered compared to other DDs, but overpowered compared to content. If one job dominates certain content (current content), that indicates that the job is overpowered. That's why most jobs can be considered overpowered inside Abyssea, for example, even if most jobs themselves were fine as they were.

If WAR is overpowered compared to every other job [..]

Let's assume the previous was true, and it was just about job-to-job comparisons. We never said it was superior to every other job. We specifically stated (several times throughout this and many other threads) that SAM is now a close contender. This, again, indicates that you didn't actually read the thread but just surmised (incorrectly) what we were talking about, making your response irrelevant to the discussion.

[..] it would win against every job hands down.

Why would it? Assuming for a second we were talking about job-comparisons here, and that we did mean it that it was overpowered compared to every other job, how does profiency in direct combat indicate proficiency in a group scenario, against current content? Even aside from the fact that game mechanics are very different for PvP content, the entire setup is different and the entire goal and strategy have to be adjusted. One is not related to the other. At all. Hence, your post is irrelevant in that respect as well.

You didn't get an answer because you didn't deserve one (also because there is no simple answer to that, but that's an entirely different (and unrelated) story).

Originalkord

12-23-2011, 08:38 PM

I like how you open with this, then proceed to answer what you consider drivel. What does that make your response...?

I believe one would call it a rebuttal to an ongoing debate...clearly.

You just took an arrow to the knee by mentioning Ranger. Ranger was RIDICULOUSLY BROKEN before they FIXED it. Did they over-nerf it? Yeah, sure they did. But there's absolutely no denying that RNG was by an insurmountable margin the only relevant endgame DD, period.

And at a time when leveling was actually difficult, people who were "main" ranger found themselves left out and had to level BLM.

The only Ninja nerf I can think of was "lose enmity when shadows are hit" which turned out to be GAMEBREAKING amirite?!

Lack of a personal enmity tool/JA. People subbed /BRD and /DRK til they put an end to that, making NIN an ineffective tank, and an equally ineffective DD.

1. Balance doesn't just involve making jobs better. Balance means making everything more equal. Which means things WILL sometimes need to be toned down, that's just a fact.

I agree, but do they plan on making other jobs better?

2. I don't see how changing the subject to Samurais is in any way relevant.

Then you're blind lol. Samurai is now on the same field as WAR thanks to Shoha. Once they tone down WAR, SAM is your 4k+ WS DD, except they can use it a hell of a lot more often. It's plenty relevant, and its a prime example of my entire argument that all SE is doing is toning down one job in spite of another. Nerf Shoha and you'd get me to agree that is a closer step towards balance.

3. Throwing money away? OH NO you're right this nerf's fallout will end up deleting my character and deleveling all your jobs to 10

Deleting your character would imply you've quit, and thus will no longer spend money--"AMIRITE?". You're HAPPY to be playing a game with developers that do not release legitimate content and put the screws to their player base?

4. How does new content "create balance"? Voidwatch did a little bit toward it but even in Voidwatch, it's very common to see T3+ groups bring 3-4 Ukonvasara Warriors, because they're so vastly superior to basically every other DD in the game. This is a fact. The only way "new content" can alter balance is by making different shit overpowered, and in this case they'd have to make content that nerfs the hell out of critical hits - which would bring DRK and SAM back to the forefront with the most powerful non-crit WS. Which ISN'T BALANCE, EITHER.

Thanks for agreeing to my point that new content CAN help balance things, if done correctly.

So what would YOU do to nerf Warrior? Not nerf their bullshit-OP WS? Or would you nerf the Warrior itself to the point that Ukko's ISN'T overpowered anymore - in doing so making non-Ukonvasara WARs the most useless job in the game? Gimme a better solution than nerfing Ukko's and you'll have my attention. :|

I do have your attention if you're responding to my posts, professor. If you read what I said instead of trying to only supplement your own argument, you'll see I agreed that WAR was overpowered. I'll state my argument once again that a nerf to one job alone solves NOTHING. Two months when we all have Masamune SAMs you'll see what I'm, talking about.

So keep thinking that I'm crusading against a WAR nerf. If you look at my gear/jobs, I have plenty to fall back on already. What angers me is that players will jump to the next best thing, and then SE will nerf that too. This is how they operate, and I don't know how you think that's fair.

How's your Ukon coming along, Tag? Still 11/50?

Tagrineth

12-23-2011, 10:20 PM

How's your Ukon coming along, Tag? Still 11/50?

Nope. Incidentally irrelevant to anything else, but thanks for asking.

SolidSnake

12-24-2011, 01:11 AM

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-removal-of-tanaka-from-ffxi-to-remove-tanaka-from-ffxi

Nala

12-24-2011, 01:30 AM

The only Ninja nerf I can think of was "lose enmity when shadows are hit" which turned out to be GAMEBREAKING amirite?!

Eh, i wouldn't call them nerfs so much but when nin first came out 1 utsusemi shadow could absorb AoE's, there were a few other things that they adjusted with nin but been a while so i dont remember the exact changed in any case the dev team saw nin being played not as intended (as a tank) and tried to take measures to fix that. (ill see if i cant find it in the reeeeeeaallly old patch notes.)

http://www.playonline.com/updateus/040914gs7tr3.html

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20050715Pm01B1/detail.html (here's the emity one could have sworn there were a few more changes to nin than this, also wow that was a while back.)

Brolic

12-24-2011, 01:33 AM

Yes, it has the same amazing aftermath... as every other Emp Weapon. So instead of asking for buffs/removing penalties so other jobs would be more popular, you're happy someone else is nerfed, which doesn't change anything about other jobs, and just makes it so we all do less damage.

I can't fathom why any monk would be happy VS was getting nerfed unless they weren't using VS in the first place.

Kriegsgott was always an idiot, think of your typical maat's cap player. Shit on every job, but had them all leveled. One of those "come brd, or mainhand thf's knife" kinda guys

Insaniac

12-24-2011, 01:37 AM

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-removal-of-tanaka-from-ffxi-to-remove-tanaka-from-ffxi

You're so getting banned but I support what you are trying to do =)

Tsuneo

12-24-2011, 01:41 AM

If I want damage and the target is a very sturdy high-level NM, why the hell would I invite anything else given the option? It turns the game into LOL WARRIOR SPAM GGNORE. Remember how SAM and DRK were literally the only endgame DD in the game pre-abyssea? Let's go back to those days except WAR instead of DRK!

Have you ever even done Voidwatch? I'm leaning towards no because you have no idea what you're talking about unless you're talking about some other event with sturdy high-level NMs. Oh, that's right there is no such thing in the game at this time. Go ahead and invite only WARs to Voidwatch. That's a quick way to get no procs, and we all know how shitty Voidwatch drop rate is even with procs. Let's just nerf the hell out of all our DD's so no one feels inferior to anyone, so that way we can kill NMs at a snails pace. Now we have a shitty drop rate combined with a shitty kill speed. That sounds pretty promising to me.

Insaniac

12-24-2011, 01:48 AM

I demand everyone's damage be lowered to the level of an AH THF so we can all feel special.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 01:59 AM

yay Tsuneo :)

Neisan_Quetz

12-24-2011, 02:00 AM

In pickup VW runs the best DD I've seen was Conqueror WAR maintaining level 3 Aftermath, but then again I don't consider most of the ukon wars I've seen to be close to Eijin's.

Brolic

12-24-2011, 02:08 AM

Eh, i wouldn't call them nerfs so much but when nin first came out 1 utsusemi shadow could absorb AoE's, there were a few other things that they adjusted with nin but been a while so i dont remember the exact changed in any case the dev team saw nin being played not as intended (as a tank) and tried to take measures to fix that. (ill see if i cant find it in the reeeeeeaallly old patch notes.)

http://www.playonline.com/updateus/040914gs7tr3.html

http://www.playonline.com/pcd/update/ff11us/20050715Pm01B1/detail.html (here's the emity one could have sworn there were a few more changes to nin than this, also wow that was a while back.)

tp floor was the ninja nerf

Nala

12-24-2011, 08:53 AM

ah right, been so many nerfs hard to keep track of them, that said though there weren't other DW jobs back then, there are now so i kinda forgot that it was a nin specific nerf.

Scribble

12-24-2011, 09:53 AM

The question remains if the critical hit rate of both was the problem why did it take them over a year to realize this? I can live with UF being nerfed (I'm still going to complain about it, who likes being nerfed) but VS is especially perplexing because it was only roughly 5% above CDC/Hi. Having restraint halved and UF cut wasn't bad enough? They got to nerf BR too, which helped buff the pt's damage? Like I said earlier, all this does is make everyone deal less damage. It hasn't fixed any issues. People aren't going to start clamoring for more pups in VW.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but if you want to play stupid then I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Abyssea. How much of a difference does an 'added crit chance with TP' modifier make in a zone where you can cap crit rate solely on atmas alone?

Now that the focus has shifted away from abyssea, having near capped crit is broken and anyone who knew that abyssea wouldn't be the end of the road already knew it was coming.

I also think it's fucking ridiculous to say that other jobs should be buffed to compensate for a broken TP mod. The current content isn't really all that challenging as it is, but you want to put everyone on god mode and make it even more laughable? How is it that people don't understand that it makes more sense to nerf a few weaponskills than it does not only to buff all the rest, but to buff the content to compensate as well?

Really guys, really...?

Neisan_Quetz

12-24-2011, 10:05 AM

If you're capping crit rate at 100% TP without BR inside you're using the wrong atmas. Abyssea is old news and mentioning it for anything is irrelevant.

Current content isn't challenging because SE seems to have gone out of the way to reduce the challenge in it (VW), the hardest part of VW is finding a group of people who aren't braindead and can't figure out how gearswaps work. Virtually everything else atm is old content and WoE, which is pretty dead on most servers because of how bad it is.

Current testing puts Ukko's crit rate at roughly half the old mods.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 10:10 AM

I also think it's fucking ridiculous to say that other jobs should be buffed to compensate for a broken TP mod. The current content isn't really all that challenging as it is, but you want to put everyone on god mode and make it even more laughable? How is it that people don't understand that it makes more sense to nerf a few weaponskills than it does not only to buff all the rest, but to buff the content to compensate as well?

Really guys, really...?

Man, my record is really wearing out...

Here is the problem Scribble. People are DYING for new content. Ideally they would add content that brings back the challenge and makes it so they don't need to resort to a nerf. I'm not talking abyssea or VW, I mean full blown expansion, new areas, new HNM, etc, etc. The problem is that adding content does not seem to be SE's strongest suit.

They are, on the other hand, incredibly adept at one thing. They buff a job, people gravitate towards it. A subset of the player base complains about said job. They proceed to nerf it and leave all other things equal. The nerfed players move on to the next most powerful job which has also gone unchecked. This cycle has gone on and on for years. It doesn't accomplish anything other than frustrate the player base.

People need to recognize that others have a right to be angry. Don't act like you wouldn't feel the same way if you were in that position.

Scribble

12-24-2011, 10:55 AM

If you're capping crit rate at 100% TP without BR inside you're using the wrong atmas. Abyssea is old news and mentioning it for anything is irrelevant.

I agree, but the question was why has it taken so long. If the mod had always been what it will be soon, people wouldn't have cared until anything outside became relevant. That's my point.

Current testing leaves Ukko's well above RR and leaves warrior as a competent(player skill willing) and capable DD.

Original, I completely agree and was actually hoping that this last bump to 99 was going to be accompanied by a full expansion. I don't think people have a right to be angry though given the circumstances. Get upset for a moment because you aren't going to be a powerful as you once were, but realize that you are still in demand and you are still toward the top of the DD food chain.

Personally, I'd be more angry if any jackass with enough willpower to collect a Ukon could outparse top class, skilled DD from other jobs simply because the mechanics of their WS was broken.

Neisan_Quetz

12-24-2011, 10:57 AM

I'm more angry it's 3 nerfs in a row really, and I still think nerfing UF down to same crit rate as Raging is a little too much on top of the other 2 nerfs.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 11:11 AM

Personally, I'd be more angry if any jackass with enough willpower to collect a Ukon could outparse top class, skilled DD from other jobs simply because the mechanics of their WS was broken.

The very nature of the WAR job is to be the top tier of DD though...it's all they have, literally. I think it is only natural that they should be more powerful than the likes of SAM and DRK. You take that away from it and you don't have a whole lot else. It got boned with JA's and traits during the level increases, so the high damage was more than adequate compensation, in my opinion.

I don't find a high powered WS to be as bad as the fact that every class, WAR included, has a hell of a lot more survivability than it did in years past. DD's (without /NIN or /DNC) can tank anything now with one healer, and that was never the case back in the day. Almost any job can be a tank when your mages MP supply is limitless thanks to various buffs and replenishing temp items. Maybe get rid of the "mega mages" and make it so that spamming cure V is not a legitimate strategy to keep your "overpowered" party alive.

When it comes to outparsing other non-WAR DD, that's something I don't take any stock in. It would be like comparing apples to oranages. I'd much rather outparse another WAR when on WAR, another SAM when on SAM, etc.

Scribble

12-24-2011, 11:30 AM

The very nature of the WAR job is to be the top tier of DD though...it's all they have, literally. I think it is only natural that they should be more powerful than the likes of SAM and DRK. You take that away from it and you don't have a whole lot else. It got boned with JA's and traits during the level increases, so the high damage was more than adequate compensation, in my opinion.

I'll see your SAM and DRK and raise you RNG.

Anyway, one of the reasons WAR got normalized is because people don't want to feel like they need to play THE top DD job. When abyssea was hot it was almost a requirement that you had at least one of the select few 'necessary' jobs. The nerf is a step in the right direction toward other jobs not being left out or even shunned from events.

If WAR is/was/will always be the top DD job then why invite anything else unless your target is melee resistant? In those cases DRK/SAM/DRG are all equally worthless so why not make them closer to the same performance by equally skilled and geared players?

Be a standout for the way you play your job and not for the gear you own.

Tagrineth

12-24-2011, 11:46 AM

Have you ever even done Voidwatch? I'm leaning towards no because you have no idea what you're talking about unless you're talking about some other event with sturdy high-level NMs. Oh, that's right there is no such thing in the game at this time. Go ahead and invite only WARs to Voidwatch. That's a quick way to get no procs, and we all know how shitty Voidwatch drop rate is even with procs. Let's just nerf the hell out of all our DD's so no one feels inferior to anyone, so that way we can kill NMs at a snails pace. Now we have a shitty drop rate combined with a shitty kill speed. That sounds pretty promising to me.

I've been to plenty of high-tier Voidwatch fights where we had 3-4 Ukonvasara WARs and killed with capped lights in under 5 minutes, 4 stones in a row. Just have to have a remote fucking clue which jobs to bring (e.g. don't bring MNK or THF). Watching Pil or Kaggen go down in 3 minutes with capped lights is complete bullshit and should not be possible, but it IS with the current power level of Ukonvasara.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 11:47 AM

If WAR is/was/will always be the top DD job then why invite anything else unless your target is melee resistant? In those cases DRK/SAM/DRG are all equally worthless so why not make them closer to the same performance by equally skilled and geared players?

Lol. Not everything can be the best, that really would make for one hell of a pointless game. SOME things need to be better than other things. If you're going to have DD's spread across a range of 8 classes they ALL need to be better at something, otherwise your difference is aesthetics. If all things are going to be equal then whats the point of anyone leveling anything different at all?

There is nothing wrong with WAR being the top DD. There is nothing wrong with SAM being able to make skillchains with just about any job combination and WS (with moderately powered damage) at will. Wouldn't it be cool if DRK was a little less powerful than a WAR, but could close the gap by having some kind of worthwhile upgrade to magic attack?

Things like that don't exist anymore, and THAT is the problem. So to everyone's argument--YES, I am not disagreeing with anyone when you tell me that today, there is no reason to invite anything other than WAR. But think about it, when is the last time they forced you to NEED a certain job anyway(outside of the weakness staggering BS)? Remember when you fought Fafnir and your lives were made infinitely better when you had competent melee that could skill chain and BLMs that could magic burst? Or how about when you had to KITE to kill KB? Then there was Odin where you needed specific parties with specific jobs with specific roles in order to not fail.

They broke up that sort of thing. By doing that, they also broke up traditional linkshells. I remember when linkshells RECRUITED for specific jobs. Ever have to fill out an application and get denied for lack of versatility? You ran with an LS and you had a place to participate in an event because you were recruited for your ability to play a specific job with a somewhat decent level of skill (in theory). Now everything is shouts. Shout groups have limited space, and yes, some people will be left out simply because there is a maximum of 18 spaces.

They made EVERYTHING beatable via zerg. Stop blaming the players who followed the path that was laid out for them. Develop content that can't be beatable by zerging and you already have more balance than you did before.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 11:50 AM

I've been to plenty of high-tier Voidwatch fights where we had 3-4 Ukonvasara WARs and killed with capped lights in under 5 minutes, 4 stones in a row. Just have to have a remote fucking clue which jobs to bring (e.g. don't bring MNK or THF). Watching Pil or Kaggen go down in 3 minutes with capped lights is complete bullshit and should not be possible, but it IS with the current power level of Ukonvasara.

<---- Still finds it ironic that you bash the hell out of WARs and Ukons while you tout your (Ukon-less) WAR's ability to rape and Ukon progress on your FFXIAH page.

I suspect by me drawing attention to that it will be down in a matter of minutes.

Neisan_Quetz

12-24-2011, 11:50 AM

I've been to plenty of high-tier Voidwatch fights where we had 3-4 Ukonvasara WARs and killed with capped lights in under 5 minutes, 4 stones in a row. Just have to have a remote fucking clue which jobs to bring (e.g. don't bring MNK or THF). Watching Pil or Kaggen go down in 3 minutes with capped lights is complete bullshit and should not be possible, but it IS with the current power level of Ukonvasara.

That has less to do with War and more to do with how easy SE made VW with temps staggers and now white proc.

You can still get screwed on procs depending on setup.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 11:53 AM

That has less to do with War and more to do with how easy SE made VW with temps staggers and now white proc.

You can still get screwed on procs depending on setup.

I've gone without MNK and without THF...White was H2H...and not Spinning. Boned.

Tagrineth

12-24-2011, 12:10 PM

<---- Still finds it ironic that you bash the hell out of WARs and Ukons while you tout your (Ukon-less) WAR's ability to rape and Ukon progress on your FFXIAH page.

Who's bashing? I'm stating facts. Ukon WAR is overpowered. My enjoyment of the job and progress toward Ukon has nothing to do with that... I started working on it before I even saw the damage Ukko's Fury deals. Giant hammers are fucking awesome. :3 And at the time I last updated my ffxiah item sets, my WAR was pretty close to being as good as you could get it without (to me) fairly expensive pieces like Grim+1. I usually don't spend more than about 1mil on any one slot because there's usually a more efficient alternative that allows the money to improve another slot anyway...

I suspect by me drawing attention to that it will be down in a matter of minutes.

If anything I need to update a few slots, thanks for the reminder. Haven't touched my ffxiah item sets in many months.

Neisan_Quetz

12-24-2011, 12:14 PM

Ukon war is overpowered, okay, and Conqueror which is arguably just as good if not better in VW since you can fulltime AM and get Oa2-3 procs on WS is okay?

Actually now with new WS I'd argue Koga Sam is better than Ukko War. Well I suppose this means mythics are fixed at least for one event then.

Tagrineth

12-24-2011, 12:20 PM

Sadly our prime example of a Conqueror WAR on Quetz is a huge disappointment.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 12:20 PM

Who's bashing? I'm stating facts. Ukon WAR is overpowered. My enjoyment of the job and progress toward Ukon has nothing to do with that... I started working on it before I even saw the damage Ukko's Fury deals. Giant hammers are fucking awesome. :3 And at the time I last updated my ffxiah item sets, my WAR was pretty close to being as good as you could get it without (to me) fairly expensive pieces like Grim+1. I usually don't spend more than about 1mil on any one slot because there's usually a more efficient alternative that allows the money to improve another slot anyway...

And thats the whole fun in the WAR job--ridiculously BIG WS numbers. Outside of that, whats the fun factor that draws people in? Its not THAT much fun to press a button when you see a number hit 100+...If you can find that to be sustainable fun then I wish I was so easily amused.

At least with other DD you get somewhat cool JA's. You can try to stack self SC's on SAM, see how close you can come to killing yourself with Souleater/LR on DRK...hell, you can even jump yourself to crazy TP on DRG now.

WAR does nothing cool like that...you'll get the occasional full buff sekkanoki, but even then your payoff is just to see what number you'll get. WAR does "make thing dead with big numbers."

Tagrineth

12-24-2011, 12:22 PM

And thats the whole fun in the WAR job--ridiculously BIG WS numbers. Outside of that, whats the fun factor that draws people in? Its not THAT much fun to press a button when you see a number hit 100+...If you can find that to be sustainable fun then I wish I was so easily amused.

At least with other DD you get somewhat cool JA's. You can try to stack self SC's on SAM, see how close you can come to killing yourself with Souleater/LR on DRK...hell, you can even jump yourself to crazy TP on DRG now.

WAR does nothing cool like that...you'll get the occasional full buff sekkanoki, but even then your payoff is just to see what number you'll get. WAR does "make thing dead with big numbers."

Well yeah but I figured even back then that Ukko would be reasonably more powerful than Raging Rush. Which it still is! It just doesn't radically out-strip every other DD's capabilities now, which it shouldn't have in the first place. :(

That and the animation is badass.

Neisan_Quetz

12-24-2011, 12:25 PM

Sadly our prime example of a Conqueror WAR on Quetz is a huge disappointment.

That's what I find odd, he's a disappointment and yet he's still equal to or better than some Ukon wars in total damage from what I can tell, but UF Restraint and BR have to be nerfed (only one of them affect mythic really). Compared to say Eijin, I can't tell.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 12:32 PM

Well yeah but I figured even back then that Ukko would be reasonably more powerful than Raging Rush. Which it still is! It just doesn't radically out-strip every other DD's capabilities now, which it shouldn't have in the first place. :(

So if the argument is that WAR is outstrips other DD's and hinders there ability to take part in content, what happens to it when it is no longer the top DD? Unless they change this too, the test server is proving that SAM really is replacing WAR. So is it fair to people who play WAR that they are now being misplaced?

Tagrineth

12-24-2011, 12:39 PM

So if the argument is that WAR is outstrips other DD's and hinders there ability to take part in content, what happens to it when it is no longer the top DD? Unless they change this too, the test server is proving that SAM really is replacing WAR. So is it fair to people who play WAR that they are now being misplaced?

No, but at the same time, saying "SAM is overpowered" isn't a logical argument supporting "WAR shouldn't be nerfed". It's an argument supporting "SAM should be nerfed".

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 12:46 PM

No, but at the same time, saying "SAM is overpowered" isn't a logical argument supporting "WAR shouldn't be nerfed". It's an argument supporting "SAM should be nerfed".

I believe I did say a few posts ago that to nerf WAR without nerfing SAM is incredibly counter productive. A single job nerf is a bad/lazy idea. As long as content is still zergable its not going to matter.

You and I have been at this for a while...if you can't see the point by now that nerfing one job in the name of balance is a bad idea then you're just never going to get it. The theme that has resonated in all of your posts has always been that WAR strips other jobs of usefulness. By that logic if you knock WAR down, in this case more than quite a few pegs, it too will be bypassed in favor of more powerful jobs.

Also, this goes beyond my SAM and WAR comparison...you dodged the question of is it fair to displace WAR in favor of something else--whatever it is.

Tagrineth

12-24-2011, 12:53 PM

Also, this goes beyond my SAM and WAR comparison...you dodged the question of is it fair to displace WAR in favor of something else--whatever it is.

The first word of the post you quoted was "No."

:)

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 12:57 PM

The first word of the post you quoted was "No."

:)

I'm aware. And now that you've solidified the answer, how can you be in support of a single job nerf when its going to force players out of content? That's the crime here according to you isnt it? Other jobs are not able to participate in content because WARs are just the detriment to the entire system.

I just don't see how you can expect a nerf to one job to be a good thing when it still doesn't solve your perceived problem. Its two opposing ideas.

Scribble

12-24-2011, 01:24 PM

Lol. Not everything can be the best, that really would make for one hell of a pointless game. SOME things need to be better than other things. If you're going to have DD's spread across a range of 8 classes they ALL need to be better at something, otherwise your difference is aesthetics. If all things are going to be equal then whats the point of anyone leveling anything different at all?

I'm not suggesting that everyone be capable under optimal conditions of pumping out the exact same numbers. I'm suggesting that everything be viable. The playerbase obviously doesn't support that because there is always someone who wants to be better at everything, not just something.

The bottom line is that the WS is broken and that is why it's being nerfed. The job itself doesn't lose anything unique to it other than being the only job with a broken WS. Regardless, I'd be willing to bet you $10,000 that you can't come up with 8 things that are unique, that would separate one job from the next and that also would be useful in a majority of situations.

There is nothing wrong with WAR being the top DD.

I don't have a problem with a WAR being top DD. I do have a problem with WAR being top DD because of a broken WS. Again, warriors with little to no skill and lackluster gear should not be able to keep up with or surpass other DD with top notch skills and gear. I'm not sure why anyone would argue to make that case.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 01:39 PM

Be a standout for the way you play your job and not for the gear you own.

Again, warriors with little to no skill and lackluster gear should not be able to keep up with or surpass other DD with top notch skills and gear.

*obligatory 10 character filler*

Scribble

12-24-2011, 01:50 PM

Sorry for repeating myself? Doesn't seem to sink in for people.

Originalkord

12-24-2011, 01:55 PM

Was more to poke fun at the previous assertion that gear should not be a recognition factor, but was then contradicted.

Sorry, found it amusing

Scribble

12-24-2011, 02:11 PM

That wasn't a contradiction. Gear is only a factor because in this case, it has a broken WS attached to it...

Tagrineth

12-24-2011, 04:38 PM

I'm aware. And now that you've solidified the answer, how can you be in support of a single job nerf when its going to force players out of content? That's the crime here according to you isnt it? Other jobs are not able to participate in content because WARs are just the detriment to the entire system.

I just don't see how you can expect a nerf to one job to be a good thing when it still doesn't solve your perceived problem. Its two opposing ideas.

One step at a time lol.

Originalkord

12-25-2011, 03:47 AM

One step at a time lol.

Thanks for proving my point, again.

wish12oz

12-25-2011, 04:34 AM

warriors with little to no skill and lackluster gear should not be able to keep up with or surpass other DD with top notch skills and gear.

The problem here is that even with an ukon, before this nerf takes place, bad players with bad gear cannot beat competent players with decent gear. Unless they're playing melee RDM or something dumb.

Scribble

12-25-2011, 05:03 AM

The problem here is that even with an ukon, before this nerf takes place, bad players with bad gear cannot beat competent players with decent gear. Unless they're playing melee RDM or something dumb.

I've seen it happen on several occasions outside of abyssea. Some warrior with sub par skill is keeping up or exceeding the output of other skilled DD simply because they have Ukon. Not to bash warriors or anything, but seeing that makes other people think that there really isn't much skill required to play the class. Those who are skilled will still be able to push out great numbers post-nerf anyway so I'm not sure what the issue is.

Regardless, Ukko's was broken to start with. Any warrior being honest with themselves would agree. 80% crit rate at 300 TP, considering how much easier it is to get to with songs, rolls, DA rate ect., all rolled up with a healthy STR mod and great base damage... it's just way over where it needed to be. Suggesting that other jobs get similar buffs isn't realistic, it doesn't solve the problem and you'd still see just as much QQ here about how other jobs are OP and WAR deserves the top spot.

Originalkord

12-25-2011, 05:36 AM

I've seen it happen on several occasions outside of abyssea. Some warrior with sub par skill is keeping up or exceeding the output of other skilled DD simply because they have Ukon. Not to bash warriors or anything, but seeing that makes other people think that there really isn't much skill required to play the class. Those who are skilled will still be able to push out great numbers post-nerf anyway so I'm not sure what the issue is.

All this talk of having skill on Warrior and DD jobs. If I may ask--how exactly does one display "skill" as WAR? They use Berserk? And what job was WAR being compared to in your example?

Your performance on WAR is largely due in part to having good gear sets that you have the ability to swap. Enmity management no longer applies. When skillchains were necessary you did need to have slightly less than half a brain to not be able to execute those, but that's no longer relevant. When you think of good WARs nowadays, your mind is going straight to DPS and WS numbers. We're not talking about the same level of play required to play something like WHM, which has to keep up buffs and remove debuffs, all while making sure no one gets killed in between.

Outside of damage output, no one is walking around and being an innovator and coming up with new ways to press a button when a countdown timer says they're allowed to do so.

Neisan_Quetz

12-25-2011, 05:42 AM

I've seen it happen on several occasions outside of abyssea. Some warrior with sub par skill is keeping up or exceeding the output of other skilled DD simply because they have Ukon. Not to bash warriors or anything, but seeing that makes other people think that there really isn't much skill required to play the class. Those who are skilled will still be able to push out great numbers post-nerf anyway so I'm not sure what the issue is.

Regardless, Ukko's was broken to start with. Any warrior being honest with themselves would agree. 80% crit rate at 300 TP, considering how much easier it is to get to with songs, rolls, DA rate ect., all rolled up with a healthy STR mod and great base damage... it's just way over where it needed to be. Suggesting that other jobs get similar buffs isn't realistic, it doesn't solve the problem and you'd still see just as much QQ here about how other jobs are OP and WAR deserves the top spot.

I've seen on several occasions subpar Ukon war being outdamaged by Blu, but that's because my server is full of idiots who ws in tp gear.

20/30/40 post crit rate ukko's would have been fine imo, on test server it's looking like 15/20-25/30ish.

Insaniac

12-25-2011, 07:12 AM

If skill is being equated to knowledge of how to gear yourself then a properly geared anything will beat a WAR that doesn't know about haste or doesn't gear swap or what have you. Beyond that there's no more skill required to play most DD jobs than there is to get the right flavor drink out of a soda machine.

Tagrineth

12-25-2011, 08:24 AM

Thanks for proving my point, again.

Then you aren't disagreeing with me at all!

wish12oz

12-25-2011, 03:11 PM

If I may ask--how exactly does one display "skill" as WAR?

Having appropriate gear swaps, using JAs when they're up -instead of using berserk once every 20 minutes, knowing how to reduce JA delay as much as possible, knowing what to merit, being quick to engage, knowing when to use temp items if you have them/using them correctly, being aware of when to use PDT/MDT sets to avoid dieing, knowing when to not ws things like glavoid so you dont heal it, knowing when to run away from stuff you're fighting, the ability to position yourself correctly so you auto target mob#2 after #1 dies, knowing how damage is calculated and making the most out of the gear you have access to, etc, etc, etc.........

I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Another mark of good warriors is that they have skilled up every weapon so they get all the procs they can get, which takes a lot of dedication and its very time consuming, even if using retaliation, mandies, and an alt WHM to heal yourself with. So I would say dedication and a willingness to do crappy busy work for weeks is important to being a good WAR also.

wish12oz

12-25-2011, 03:23 PM

Also, someone like this:
http://s28.photobucket.com/albums/c243/r5n/?action=view&current=krashport.jpg

Who full times 5/5 AF3+2 and WS belt/gorget, is not going to beat anyone competent at their job.

Originalkord

12-25-2011, 11:02 PM

Having appropriate gear swaps, using JAs when they're up -instead of using berserk once every 20 minutes, knowing how to reduce JA delay as much as possible, knowing what to merit, being quick to engage, knowing when to use temp items if you have them/using them correctly, being aware of when to use PDT/MDT sets to avoid dieing, knowing when to not ws things like glavoid so you dont heal it, knowing when to run away from stuff you're fighting, the ability to position yourself correctly so you auto target mob#2 after #1 dies, knowing how damage is calculated and making the most out of the gear you have access to, etc, etc, etc.........

Knowledge doesn't necessarily mean skill. I know a TON about WHM, but I'm pretty awful at it lol. A lot of that can be applied to ANY DD job, but I was thinking WAR specific. Any person that can't time JA's and what not has some issues.

I see where you're going with it though. When I think of DD skill I think of SAMs that can pull off a fully buffed self SC, or DRKs that can Stun things while meleeing. THFs that will reposition to not waste SA or TA...things like that. Haha, which reminds me--I remember doing some random abyssea NM where the THF was told to continue using TA. His response "Why? TH7 is the highest I can go :( "

Scribble

12-26-2011, 05:40 AM

Knowledge doesn't necessarily mean skill.
Exercising that knowledge in game does and that's pretty much exactly what I meant. Using what you have and what you know to produce the best result.

Anyhow, I know that no one likes to have their crayons broken, but being realistic about it there really wasn't any other way. There just isn't any way to defend keeping a WS that was so broken.

Originalkord

12-26-2011, 06:37 AM

Anyhow, I know that no one likes to have their crayons broken, but being realistic about it there really wasn't any other way. There just isn't any way to defend keeping a WS that was so broken.

I think any one who has half their wits about them could tell you that Ukko's is too powerful. I don't put any stock in the "ZOMG Y U NERF UKKO?!" people. They could have done this to a job I could care less about and I would honestly feel the same way about the situation. Since my usurping of this thread 7 pages ago, I think I've made a pretty clear argument that if you're going to balance, then fine...but do it the right way. You can make one swell balance update once you have all the intricacies of it ironed out. Update the plethora of things wrong with this game and do it all at once so everyone can understand how they will be affected, and how their role in game changes, if at all. Ukko's Fury and VSmite are not why this game is broken. It's putting a band-aid on a shotgun wound...and not a good band-aid--we're talking store brand with not enough adhesive.

Turn the volume down on my Ukko's, that's fine. I'll still be able to duo most things with a WHM alt, it'll just take longer...or I'll do it on SAM.

Scribble

12-26-2011, 07:26 AM

I think any one who has half their wits about them could tell you that Ukko's is too powerful.

You just disrespected the majority of posters in this thread. Bravo!

I won't argue that the game needs other fixes, but I will say that you don't know of an MMO that ironed everything out in one juicy patch and you'll never hear of one. I agree with most of what you said otherwise. Most of the fix is in developing content for level 99 players and not just repackaging stuff that was meant to be done at 75.

wish12oz

12-26-2011, 07:45 AM

Scribble

12-26-2011, 08:12 AM

Ukkos was working correctly, it was most other WS's that sucked balls and needed updated.
80% crit at 300 TP is working as intended? Do you honestly and truly believe that?

Originalkord

12-26-2011, 08:48 AM

80% crit at 300 TP is working as intended? Do you honestly and truly believe that?

Honestly, I do believe it was working as intended. They let it stay as it for months and only took action when people complained.

I still believe they could have increased the damage done by other weapons. Whats better--5 WARS with ukons raping, or 4 others and a WAR raping? Then we dont have to hear others cry. And at this point I don't wanna hear people rebuttal with the "YOU'LL BREAK THE GAME MORE" argument. According to the main contributors of this thread, the game is broken because 3 WARs can take down anything at the expense of other jobs.

Scribble

12-26-2011, 09:19 AM

Honestly, I do believe it was working as intended. They let it stay as it for months and only took action when people complained.

Again, nobody gave a shit because of a little thing called abyssea. It was broken in there too, but to be totally honest everyone was on godmode. That's exactly why no one gave a shit.

What's better is adjusting the one WS that is broken and not breaking everyone else WS. Outside content was easy enough with Ukko spam, but you wanted to make it easier? Sure, why not...

Tagrineth

12-26-2011, 10:09 AM

It wasn't obvious that Ukko's was overpowered when all the content that was a high enough level to tell its power was in Abyssea, where even a 100 TP Ukko's probably had 100% crit rate, let alone every other crit WS being basically 80+% crit rate.

Originalkord

12-26-2011, 10:20 AM

What's better is adjusting the one WS that is broken and not breaking everyone else WS. Outside content was easy enough with Ukko spam, but you wanted to make it easier? Sure, why not...

All of the content is a joke anyway, so what does it matter if it gets easier? If existing paths of VW get harder, and the drop rate is still piss poor, they'll just alienate the player base even more (and don't even get me started with not allowing people to add rare/ex items like BODIES they already have to an alliance loot pool). Besides, they openly admitted to gimping their own content. Their M.O. has always been to let the hardcore player base work harder for things first. Then they'll put on their best Trollfaces and gimp it so it becomes more accessible to the casual, and finally, to the stooges of the world.

All I see occurring is the downgrade of one of the, if not most, popular jobs in the game. Bottom line is that if they wanted to fix it, the most recent rounds of voidwatch should have been akin to what AV was at 75. I was in the most fail Kaggen group today. I was the only Ukon WAR, everyone died MULTIPLE times, but through the magic of zombieing, we still won. Yes, more WARs would have sealed the deal and made it far less annoying, but it was still plenty beatable without.

Scribble

12-26-2011, 01:34 PM

No more room in this discussion for logic it seems so I'll be heading out then. Good luck in the new year.

Mayaramen

12-26-2011, 03:02 PM

how are the jp's reacting to this?

hi I'm a JP player.

Just thought I should let you guys know what the JPs reactions are.

Reaction is big, both in official forum and in game, most saying they shouldn't go ahead with this.

Points that both Pro and Anti are making in JP forum are basically the same as in this NA forum.

I picked some of the main points made in JP forums. I personally don't want this to happen so I am biased but anyways.

----------------------------
Anti Nerf
- Don't ignore emotional aspects, such as motivation and passion to future gameplay (with number of players already declining, it does nothing but accelelate it, thus inappropriate)

- Allowing this can create further nerfing, creating the "chain of nerf" (Ochain, WF, some of new WS such as Shoha and Resolution have been pointed out, and even Cure V)

- Dev.Team once announced that they are not going to nerf empy weapons (some people actually made these weapons after this announcement, thus it is a breach of contract, plus you need to buy Abyssea pack to make empy)

- Those who will be affected does not include only owners of these weapons, but include owners of WoE weapons, also those who are in the process of making them, and those who is planning to make them; thus impact will be huge.

- Don't forget about PUP

Pro Nerf

- Its more important to maintain game balance (it was too powerul in the first place, and making other empy powerful will only create power-inflation, thus this nerf is sound)

- Other jobs will be able participate in end-contents more freely

- You'll still have new WS, AM, still powerful job-abilities

- This is FF11, live with it. (or I don't care coz it doesn't affect me )

----------------------------

I hope Dev Team will take our opinions into consideration and make a good VUs that everyone can look forward to.

Thanks for your attention, and many apologies for my poor English ><

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! :D

Tagrineth

12-26-2011, 04:51 PM

Your English is very good Mayaramen! Thank you for the insight.

Insaniac

12-26-2011, 11:10 PM

Thank you Mayaramen. It's very nice when bi-lingual players can help the JP and English forums communicate on important topics like this.

wish12oz

12-27-2011, 06:02 AM

80% crit at 300 TP is working as intended? Do you honestly and truly believe that?

YES.

Honestly it would of been nice if it was just straight 100% crit rate at 100 TP. But seriously, what the heck is your problem with just increasing other jobs weapon skill damage to match Ukkos? We're level 99 now, mobs have 6x the HP they had at 75, why the hell do you want to do the same WS damage you did at 75? You sound like you're just angry you couldn't get an Ukon.

Tagrineth

12-27-2011, 06:59 AM

YES.

Honestly it would of been nice if it was just straight 100% crit rate at 100 TP. But seriously, what the heck is your problem with just increasing other jobs weapon skill damage to match Ukkos? We're level 99 now, mobs have 6x the HP they had at 75, why the hell do you want to do the same WS damage you did at 75? You sound like you're just angry you couldn't get an Ukon.

If they buffed other weapons' skills to match Ukko's, they'd have to buff mobs' HP, and then we'd more than likely get a snowballing effect like WoW is currently desperately trying to remedy where the numbers just get needlessly bigger.

1k WS on Kirin's 50,000 HP at level 75, or 4k WS on Kaggen's 200,000 HP at level 99? Same fuckin' thing just bigger numbers.

Insaniac

12-27-2011, 07:08 AM

I may be misunderstanding you but I think you just argued against yourself.

Tagrineth

12-27-2011, 07:12 AM

I may be misunderstanding you but I think you just argued against yourself.

Probably misunderstanding then. Because I'm still saying that other WS shouldn't be BUFFED to match ukko's, that would be stupid. Bringing Ukko's down a notch or two is the sane choice, and that's what they're doing!

Siiri

12-27-2011, 07:12 AM

YES.

Honestly it would of been nice if it was just straight 100% crit rate at 100 TP. But seriously, what the heck is your problem with just increasing other jobs weapon skill damage to match Ukkos? We're level 99 now, mobs have 6x the HP they had at 75, why the hell do you want to do the same WS damage you did at 75? You sound like you're just angry you couldn't get an Ukon.

We have been waiting a year for buffs to other crit weapon skills, and jobs without crit ws like DRK to get one. Why hasn't SE fixed this without nerfing Ukko's? No one knows, it would be nice to have a real interview with the developers. As for WARs continually bashing others for not getting a Ukon, there are 20 jobs in the game. Some of us dont' like WAR. I have farmed the glavoid path for others, I could do it myself if I wanted. If SE is incapable of balancing jobs they shouldn't have added so many. And no, I understand every job can't parse exactly the same. Ukon WAR was a huge outlier though, and made to large an imbalance.

Insaniac

12-27-2011, 08:19 AM

Probably misunderstanding then. Because I'm still saying that other WS shouldn't be BUFFED to match ukko's, that would be stupid. Bringing Ukko's down a notch or two is the sane choice, and that's what they're doing!
When you say 1k to a 50k HP mob is the same at 4k to a 200k hp mob that seems like you are arguing that 4-5k WSs would be fine because a 1.5-2k WS on Kirin really wasn't rare at all once people were loaded up with gear at 75.

Tagrineth

12-27-2011, 02:19 PM

When you say 1k to a 50k HP mob is the same at 4k to a 200k hp mob that seems like you are arguing that 4-5k WSs would be fine because a 1.5-2k WS on Kirin really wasn't rare at all once people were loaded up with gear at 75.

No, I'm saying it'd be too much damage because it'd be the same net result. Do you want the content to stay the same difficulty level as we advance? Or do you want the fights to be the same shit just with bigger numbers, but the same end result?

Scribble

12-27-2011, 04:43 PM

YES.

Honestly it would of been nice if it was just straight 100% crit rate at 100 TP. But seriously, what the heck is your problem with just increasing other jobs weapon skill damage to match Ukkos? We're level 99 now, mobs have 6x the HP they had at 75, why the hell do you want to do the same WS damage you did at 75? You sound like you're just angry you couldn't get an Ukon.

My problem with increasing other jobs WS to match Ukko's, hmm... well for starters it's a great axe. How do you adjust a WS for 1h jobs to match a WS from a 2h job? Next question, if the purpose is to make them level then why not just nerf the one that is grossly overpowered?

Why would you make more work for yourself? On a smaller scale, it's like when you have two used cartons of eggs in the fridge. One carton has 1 egg and the other has 20. Why would you take the extra, unnecessary time to move the 20 eggs instead of just the 1? Common sense isn't so common these days.

I don't have an Ukon because my legs are too short for me to step up onto the bandwagon.

Orson

12-27-2011, 08:31 PM

My problem with increasing other jobs WS to match Ukko's, hmm... well for starters it's a great axe. How do you adjust a WS for 1h jobs to match a WS from a 2h job? Next question, if the purpose is to make them level then why not just nerf the one that is grossly overpowered?

Why would you make more work for yourself? On a smaller scale, it's like when you have two used cartons of eggs in the fridge. One carton has 1 egg and the other has 20. Why would you take the extra, unnecessary time to move the 20 eggs instead of just the 1? Common sense isn't so common these days.

I don't have an Ukon because my legs are too short for me to step up onto the bandwagon.

That's not really a very an apt analogy but even in that case. If you had that extra egg from the carton do you throw it out or keep it? Also the level was just raised in game and a whole new host of WSs were added so SE had an incredibly easy way to add weaponskills that were on par with Ukko's or better being that every single received a new one this patch. This nerf was completely unneeded and everyone with half a brain should be able to see it.

Hell it's the level 99 WSs too! why aren't shouldn't they be awesome? Oh right because the idiots making development decisions right now want "balance" which translates to no real advancement in power.

Insaniac

12-28-2011, 01:51 AM

No, I'm saying it'd be too much damage because it'd be the same net result. Do you want the content to stay the same difficulty level as we advance? Or do you want the fights to be the same shit just with bigger numbers, but the same end result?That's generally how things work out. Content difficulty increase relative to player power. I certainly wouldn't expect to be made to feel less powerful at 99 than I did at 75.

Tagrineth

12-28-2011, 02:19 AM

That's generally how things work out. Content difficulty increase relative to player power. I certainly wouldn't expect to be made to feel less powerful at 99 than I did at 75.

Well then would you rather Kaggen (to carry on the perennial example, because it's the only Voidwatch I know any actual numbers on and WAS probably the highest HP/def/eva mob at 95...) have 400,000 HP instead of 200,000? Imagine having to chew through Kaggen's current HP just for the Death Prophet phase alone...

Scribble

12-28-2011, 02:20 AM

That's not really a very an apt analogy but even in that case. If you had that extra egg from the carton do you throw it out or keep it? Also the level was just raised in game and a whole new host of WSs were added so SE had an incredibly easy way to add weaponskills that were on par with Ukko's or better being that every single received a new one this patch. This nerf was completely unneeded and everyone with half a brain should be able to see it.

The analogy serves it's purpose if you actually understand the point of it. It is less work to fix one thing than to fix twenty other things. It makes more sense to re-adjust something that is newly added rather than tinkering with shit that has been around for years.

Gaining power is somewhat limited by the previous model of the game. I'm not making excuses for the devs, but when you wire in game mechanics with the assumption that there will be no further expansions, there will be some growing pains if and when you do decide to expand.

Insaniac

12-28-2011, 03:48 AM

Well then would you rather Kaggen (to carry on the perennial example, because it's the only Voidwatch I know any actual numbers on and WAS probably the highest HP/def/eva mob at 95...) have 400,000 HP instead of 200,000? Imagine having to chew through Kaggen's current HP just for the Death Prophet phase alone...What does that have to do with what we are talking about? I said content difficulty should increase parallel to player strength. If a WS hits a big number and could do 2% of Kirins HP at 75 then why is a WS doing 2% of Kaggens HP at 99 such an issue for you? 1000 damage to a 50k hp mob at 75 is relatively the same idea as 4000 damage to a 200k hp mob at 99.

FrankReynolds

12-28-2011, 04:09 AM

The analogy serves it's purpose if you actually understand the point of it. It is less work to fix one thing than to fix twenty other things. It makes more sense to re-adjust something that is newly added rather than tinkering with shit that has been around for years.

Gaining power is somewhat limited by the previous model of the game. I'm not making excuses for the devs, but when you wire in game mechanics with the assumption that there will be no further expansions, there will be some growing pains if and when you do decide to expand.

Of course its easier to fix 1 thing. If they were paying me to play this game, that would be fine. Currently, I pay them though, so they need to fix 20 things. Actually, it would be easier for them to do nothing at all. But then again.... we pay them to fix....no, we pay them to improve things. Last I checked the subscription price hadn't gone down in order to compensate for crappy patchwork, so I will continue to expect progression, and development, not nerfs and stagnation.

Scribble

12-28-2011, 05:50 AM

Of course its easier to fix 1 thing. If they were paying me to play this game, that would be fine. Currently, I pay them though, so they need to fix 20 things.
Two points:

1) The other 20 things aren't broken.

2) Your subscription fee allows you to access content whenever you want to, not design it the way you'd like to.

FrankReynolds

12-28-2011, 06:27 AM

Two points:

1) The other 20 things aren't broken.

So all the other jobs in the game are perfect? It was just war messing everything up? ok.

2) Your subscription fee allows you to access content whenever you want to, not design it the way you'd like to.

Nope, I don't design it. I pay them too. They stop designing stuff, I stop paying. That's how subscriptions work.

Linku

12-28-2011, 08:24 AM

I don't understand how people can be for this nerf. Warrior was doing too much damage? Well at least it can fall back on it's other strengths... oh wait, there aren't any. If everyone had an Ukko's strength WS, then Warrior would be cast aside as every other job has more to offer than just DD.

Scribble

12-28-2011, 08:31 AM

So all the other jobs in the game are perfect? It was just war messing everything up? ok.

Nobody suggested that the other jobs are perfect, but they really aren't broken. Sure they could all use adjustments, but if you took a poll I bet probably 9/10 people don't care about their WS. A lonely warrior weeps in the corner despite still being at the top parse.

They stop designing stuff, I stop paying. That's how subscriptions work.
Unfortunately for you(fortunately for the rest of us), that doesn't mean that they start implementing changes you want if you quit. You should give it a try though. I'll let you know how it turns out...

FrankReynolds

12-28-2011, 08:50 AM

Nobody suggested that the other jobs are perfect, but they really aren't broken. Sure they could all use adjustments, but if you took a poll I bet probably 9/10 people don't care about their WS. A lonely warrior weeps in the corner despite still being at the top parse.

Yeah, I bet if you asked those same 10 people, 10/10 were even less concerned about warriors ws. So whats the point of the nerf again? I see 1,000 different job threads about how to buff / fix each job. Can you find the one where someone suggested nerfing ukkon to make pup perform better? how about the one where the problem with enfeebling was that ukkon needs to be weaker? none? hmmm.... so basically rather than fix that stuff, their gonna make a few wars mad, and fix nothing. great logic.

Unfortunately for you(fortunately for the rest of us), that doesn't mean that they start implementing changes you want if you quit. You should give it a try though. I'll let you know how it turns out...

I see your purposely missing the point. When I say "They stop designing stuff, I stop paying." I mean that they have to continue to develop or players will eventually finish. Nerfing a job has never once caused an increase in subscriptions. If they followed your rationale, none of the content in discussion would exist. Everyone would have quit years and years ago, because there wouldn't be 20 jobs or an ukkon to fix/nerf in the first place. But no. They do get paid to provide progression, and development in the game, and they will continue to because making new rewards is what keeps people playing.

Tagrineth

12-28-2011, 09:15 AM

What does that have to do with what we are talking about? I said content difficulty should increase parallel to player strength. If a WS hits a big number and could do 2% of Kirins HP at 75 then why is a WS doing 2% of Kaggens HP at 99 such an issue for you? 1000 damage to a 50k hp mob at 75 is relatively the same idea as 4000 damage to a 200k hp mob at 99.

Because then it feels like the fight difficulty is about the same, right down to the NM dying at (relatively) the same rate. How does that make you feel more powerful? Oh boy, bigger number... same relative death rate.

I don't understand how people can be for this nerf. Warrior was doing too much damage? Well at least it can fall back on it's other strengths... oh wait, there aren't any. If everyone had an Ukko's strength WS, then Warrior would be cast aside as every other job has more to offer than just DD.

Yeah all Warrior does is damage, that doesn't mean it should be able to double other jobs' peak WS numbers.

FrankReynolds

12-28-2011, 09:33 AM

Because then it feels like the fight difficulty is about the same, right down to the NM dying at (relatively) the same rate. How does that make you feel more powerful? Oh boy, bigger number... same relative death rate.

Well..... he did kill a monster that would eat a 75 player in 1-2 hits for starters.....

Yeah all Warrior does is damage, that doesn't mean it should be able to double other jobs' peak WS numbers.

It can't double most jobs numbers. The jobs that it can double have been in need of buffs for a while. Only the trolls prefer nerfing another jobs over fixing their own job.

Scribble

12-28-2011, 11:20 AM

Can you find the one where someone suggested nerfing ukkon to make pup perform better?
This nerf isn't supposed to increase another jobs performance. It is supposed to reduce warriors performance because it's clearly too high and that is a problem. SE didn't look at other jobs and say "They can't keep up with warrior, lets nerf warrior". They looked at warrior and said "That worked in abyssea when it didn't matter because everyone was on godmode, but we can't allow it outside for encounters that are supposed to be challenging".

If they buffed all jobs to the level of damage output that an Ukon warrior is capable of then they might as well make XI a single player MMO because 90% of the content would be soloable.

Tagrineth

12-28-2011, 01:08 PM

It can't double most jobs numbers. The jobs that it can double have been in need of buffs for a while. Only the trolls prefer nerfing another jobs over fixing their own job.

It did indeed double most jobs' numbers. 5-6k high/peak Ukko's vs most other jobs doing 2-3k on good hits.

Chaz

12-28-2011, 01:14 PM

This nerf isn't supposed to increase another jobs performance. It is supposed to reduce warriors performance because it's clearly too high and that is a problem. SE didn't look at other jobs and say "They can't keep up with warrior, lets nerf warrior". They looked at warrior and said "That worked in abyssea when it didn't matter because everyone was on godmode, but we can't allow it outside for encounters that are supposed to be challenging".

If they buffed all jobs to the level of damage output that an Ukon warrior is capable of then they might as well make XI a single player MMO because 90% of the content would be soloable.

That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. If they didn't look at other jobs then how could they possibly know that WAR was too powerful.

P.S. Even with ukko's I can't solo even a decent challenge with any kind of consistency without dying....WAR is 100% dependent on WHM support. Ironically I can solo with WHM far better than with WAR. I guess they should nerf Hexa cause WHM is too powerful.

Scribble

12-28-2011, 02:14 PM

That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. If they didn't look at other jobs then how could they possibly know that WAR was too powerful.
It doesn't make sense because no one can seem to figure out that we are talking about a WS that is exclusive to warrior. This isn't about balancing jobs against each other, it's about balancing a job against the content.

Ukko's is too powerful and needed to be scaled back. I guess it's fair to be upset that it wasn't adjusted earlier, but like I said before it wouldn't have mattered much during the peak of abyssea. People also should have seen it coming.

If a day comes where your WHM is allowed to melee endgame content doing 6k HS then yes, you should expect a nerf.

FrankReynolds

12-29-2011, 01:49 AM

It doesn't make sense because no one can seem to figure out that we are talking about a WS that is exclusive to warrior. This isn't about balancing jobs against each other, it's about balancing a job against the content.

Right, and instead of balancing the content, they messed with a weapon that people worked hard to get. They didn't make the content any more difficult. If they took war completely out of the game, the content would still be beat in virtually no time. There is a problem with the content. Not the job. They did not create content appropriate for level 99 players and are taking the easy rout of nerfing the jobs instead of fixing the bigger picture. The problem is, this doesn't fix anything. They could have built mobs with higher HP, or damage caps, or JA that make them impossible to kill without a dedicated tank, but that requires work and creativity, so they took the easy route, and that means bad things for everyone else. Not just wars.

Brolic

12-29-2011, 02:10 AM

It did indeed double most jobs' numbers. 5-6k high/peak Ukko's vs most other jobs doing 2-3k on good hits.

actually at the moment my war is pretty much on par with a equally geared sam spamming shoda

FrankReynolds

12-29-2011, 02:18 AM

actually at the moment my war is pretty much on par with a equally geared sam spamming shoda

And that's the thing. If they make war weak, sam will replace it, if they make sam weak, monk will replace it..... right on down the line until everyone sucks. They need to fix the content. Not nerf the jobs that are good. they would have to seriously nerf the shit out of every job to make any serious dent in peoples abilities to defeat current content. That is retarded.

Originalkord

12-29-2011, 12:56 PM

And that's the thing. If they make war weak, sam will replace it, if they make sam weak, monk will replace it..... right on down the line until everyone sucks. They need to fix the content. Not nerf the jobs that are good. they would have to seriously nerf the shit out of every job to make any serious dent in peoples abilities to defeat current content. That is retarded.

FINALLY! Just when I was about to give up--Validation!!!!

Tagrineth

12-29-2011, 02:52 PM

So what should they do then to "balance the content" which will magically make all jobs equally effective against it?

Tsuneo

12-29-2011, 08:01 PM

So what should they do then to "balance the content" which will magically make all jobs equally effective against it?
Nope, that's a two-part process. Balancing jobs against content isn't the same as balancing jobs against other jobs. Also, you seem to forget that every job doesn't need to massive damage to be useful. There's a few heavy DD's in the game, so I don't see why people think every job deserves to be equal with WAR on damage. Buff the heavy DD's and make the other jobs more useful for other things. That's how the game the game should be. It's a ridiculous idea to have a job like THF be on equal standing with a heavy DD.

Dart

12-30-2011, 12:35 AM

actually at the moment my war is pretty much on par with a equally geared sam spamming shoda

really? My irl friend is a sam nut (and a pretty good player) and he still gets beat by me by a fairly solid margin, even with 5/5 shoda.

Brolic

12-30-2011, 01:31 AM

really? My irl friend is a sam nut (and a pretty good player) and he still gets beat by me by a fairly solid margin, even with 5/5 shoda.

in what abyssea or vw?

Riaurio

12-30-2011, 02:12 AM

It's a ridiculous idea to have a job like THF be on equal standing with a heavy DD.

I think that is the whole problem for the majority of the player base who complains. I don't know why, but for some odd reason(Abyssea) these players who complain think that every job who isnt a mage should be considered a DD and be on par with all DD on all content. I am not saying that THF/DNC/DRG/DRK/MNK/NIN cant or should not be able to DD becuase they can, but no one is willing to stop and think about the fact that these jobs have individual roles to play and its not to be the heavy hitting DD that WAR and SAM are.

FrankReynolds

12-30-2011, 02:52 AM

I think that is the whole problem for the majority of the player base who complains. I don't know why, but for some odd reason(Abyssea) these players who complain think that every job who isnt a mage should be considered a DD and be on par with all DD on all content. I am not saying that THF/DNC/DRG/DRK/MNK/NIN cant or should not be able to DD becuase they can, but no one is willing to stop and think about the fact that these jobs have individual roles to play and its not to be the heavy hitting DD that WAR and SAM are.

I can't speak on all of those jobs. Some of them are doing quite well actually, but in many cases, the other things that they are supposed to bring to the table besides damage are not very good / desired traits. Some of those jobs in events are like using a butter knife for a screw driver. If you have a couple things you need done, they will work, but when you have a big job to do, you need the right tool. The problem is that if you have 1 white mage in your group, then there is very little left for those jobs to do besides Kill Stuff. So if they want to be desired like war, they need to perform at least close to war in the damage department. The other traits they offer unfortunately don't make or break the fight in most cases.

Riaurio

12-30-2011, 06:00 AM

I can't speak on all of those jobs. Some of them are doing quite well actually, but in many cases, the other things that they are supposed to bring to the table besides damage are not very good / desired traits. Some of those jobs in events are like using a butter knife for a screw driver. If you have a couple things you need done, they will work, but when you have a big job to do, you need the right tool. The problem is that if you have 1 white mage in your group, then there is very little left for those jobs to do besides Kill Stuff. So if they want to be desired like war, they need to perform at least close to war in the damage department. The other traits they offer unfortunately don't make or break the fight in most cases.

I completely agree with you, but i feel that their should be outrage over the ability's of these jobs instead of "nerf war so we suck less"

Scribble

12-30-2011, 08:13 AM

This isn't about balancing jobs against each other, it's about balancing a job against the content.

Right, and instead of balancing the content...

You misunderstood. Balancing a job against the content means adjusting jobs to suit the content, not the other way around. I agree that they have done a poor job, but most of that is a result of the previous cap and how jobs scaled up to that point.

Ukko's was just a case of not really needing to be adjusted immediately. Nearly everything was taking place inside of abyssea so it wasn't as overpowered as it is now in VWNMs. If SE took your advice and made the content tougher instead of tuning the broken WS it would only make things worse. The longer a fight lasts, the further and further ahead warriors would pull in front of everyone else.

Vold

12-30-2011, 10:40 AM

I have first dibs on the inevitable future warrior catch phrase "I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took a nerf in the knee"

Glacont

12-30-2011, 10:48 AM

I have first dibs on the inevitable future warrior catch phrase "I used to be an adventurer like you, then I took a nerf in the knee"

There is always Soul Calibur. They can't Nerf Astaroth or Mitsurugui. I can play them in peace.

Tagrineth

12-30-2011, 12:21 PM

Nope, that's a two-part process. Balancing jobs against content isn't the same as balancing jobs against other jobs. Also, you seem to forget that every job doesn't need to massive damage to be useful. There's a few heavy DD's in the game, so I don't see why people think every job deserves to be equal with WAR on damage. Buff the heavy DD's and make the other jobs more useful for other things. That's how the game the game should be. It's a ridiculous idea to have a job like THF be on equal standing with a heavy DD.

Sure, but that doesn't mean WAR should literally marginalise every other DD in the game.

Dart

12-30-2011, 12:26 PM

in what abyssea or vw?

in voidwatch, it comes down to having a cor + savetp abyssite so i'm 3 hitting but he doesn't have AM for ODD up and I do. My total melee dmg crushes him and since we're both 3 hitting with roughly equal ws damage I pull pretty far ahead unless I get one shotted. It also negates meditate, its literally not worth the couple swings you lose to use med for sam's you just over tp, which sucks for them.

I'm not sure if you do but our main dd party gets brd + cor so you have to pay attention to not overtp and even then you still do from time to time.

FrankReynolds

12-30-2011, 10:55 PM

You misunderstood. Balancing a job against the content means adjusting jobs to suit the content, not the other way around. I agree that they have done a poor job, but most of that is a result of the previous cap and how jobs scaled up to that point.

See here's the thing. We gained 24 levels. We are supposed to be insanely strong now. There's no point in a level increase if that doesn't happen. In this case, they are creating new content for new levels, so the content should be apropriate to the new level. They shouldn't be creating the content too weak, and then nerfing the newly leveled jobs back to it.

Ukko's was just a case of not really needing to be adjusted immediately. Nearly everything was taking place inside of abyssea so it wasn't as overpowered as it is now in VWNMs. If SE took your advice and made the content tougher instead of tuning the broken WS it would only make things worse. The longer a fight lasts, the further and further ahead warriors would pull in front of everyone else.

See again. A) the content should not have went into use when it was not matched to jobs/weapons that were already in the game, and B) warrior pulls ahead because other jobs are either too weak as DD, or have not been adjusted accordingly to fill other uses. Removing war doesn't suddenly make VW only beatable using red mage enfeebles, a ranger dealing damage, 2 thief trick attacking a paladin, and dancers there for the haste and cures / debuffs, a bunch of darks to ... do w/e .... see what I'm saying? They haven't balanced anything against anything.

Riaurio

12-31-2011, 02:26 AM

Sure, but that doesn't mean WAR should literally marginalise every other DD in the game.

I am wondering what these "every other DD in the game" are.

Yes i know what the other DD are im just wondering which are the ones that you feel should be on par with WAR and SAM for damage?

Tsuneo

12-31-2011, 06:39 AM

Sure, but that doesn't mean WAR should literally marginalise every other DD in the game.
Like I said, Heavy DD's should have been brought up to speed with WAR, and the content should be on par with new offensive power of said Heavy DD's. The state of endgame now is a complete joke. Voidwatch is a piss poor attempt at endgame. Proc gimmicks and horrible drop rates that can't even be shared within an alliance is just pseudo-difficulty. Like it was mentioned before, there was no reason to level past 75 if we're going to have the same strength that we did at 75.

Scribble

12-31-2011, 07:32 AM

See here's the thing. We gained 24 levels. We are supposed to be insanely strong now.

That came and went with abyssea. Short of moving those buffs outside the zone and adjusting mobs accordingly, you're stuck on the same linear rails you were before it. SE has decided to revamp old content which plays a major role in why you progress upward in a linear fashion as opposed to exponentially as in WoW. It would take quite a bit of work to adjust the game in that way and I'd assume that SE has no intention of doing it. Thus, Ukko's needed to be nerfed.

See again. A) the content should not have went into use when it was not matched to jobs/weapons that were already in the game, and B) warrior pulls ahead because other jobs are either too weak as DD, or have not been adjusted accordingly to fill other uses. Removing war doesn't suddenly make VW only beatable using red mage enfeebles, a ranger dealing damage, 2 thief trick attacking a paladin, and dancers there for the haste and cures / debuffs, a bunch of darks to ... do w/e .... see what I'm saying?

A) The content was already slated for adjustments, but none of those adjustments included the use of atmas and other abyssea buffs.

B) I completely agree that they could and should adjust jobs to make them more useful(including warrior), but their encounter design needs to change. Jobs either need to provide something key to defeating a battle or provide buffs that give your group the edge. Balancing jobs vs content.

Removing war... you really think the nerf is going to hit you that hard? You'll still be at the top of the parse doing what you do best, it just won't be multitudes more than other jobs who provide the same. Balancing jobs vs jobs.

*EDIT*
In essence, nerfing warrior back down to the level of other DD is the same as bringing other DD up to warrior. The difference is that content can be left how it was intended to be. There are only two arguments for warrior here. One is that they aren't better than everything else for survivability issues, niche SC usage, ect. and the other is that they don't get to see big numbers. Both of them are lame arguments.