Haste and You... A guide to the misinformed.

[Frost]

I am posting this in hopes that it reaches the minds of those forum posters that don't see the value in haste...

How players typically precieve haste is that it increases your speed; and while that is technically correct, it's more accurately described as reducing your delay between actions.

Why is this worth mentioning?

Because conceptually people tend to see: 25% haste as a 25% increase in damage.
That is incorrect!

Haste:

At 0% haste you attack at your normal rate.
At 50% haste you attack with half of your delay removed. Another way of saying that is that you can do 2 actions in the same time, or more easily understood, you are attacking twice as fast.

At 50% haste I.E. a 50% reduction in the time between actions, you are NOT doing 50% more damage, you are in fact doing 100% more damage.

Take the following scenario into consideration:

You possess a Sword that has a 240 Delay. That means, according to the way the game currently works, (that every 60 delay = 1 second) said Sword will complete an attack round once every four seconds.

If you were to introduce 50% haste onto that character, the delay of the Sword would be reduced by 50%, down to 120 delay, meaning that in the same time as before (four seconds) you now attack two times.

That is all redundant I know, but some people need different angle to grasp concepts, and I apologize if this comes off as demeaning.

Here's a chart for quick reference:
(Please note "Haste" is a general term that I'm using to describe general "Delay Reduction" throughout the post)

Table 1:


Haste - Increase in Attack Rounds
00% - 00.00%
05% - 05.26%
10% - 11.11% (Marches: Advancing: ~9%, Victory: ~12.5%, with a +2 Instrument)
15% - 17.65% (Haste Spell)
20% - 25.00% (2x Marches ~21.5%)
25% - 33.33% (Cap on Gear or Ability Haste)
30% - 42.86%
35% - 53.85%
40% - 66.67%
45% - 81.82% (Roughly the cap on Haste given by Magic/Songs ~43.75%)
50% - 100.0% (Maximum recast reduction)
55% - 122.2%
60% - 150.0%
65% - 185.7%
70% - 233.3%
75% - 300.0%
80% - 400.0% (Maximum weapon delay reduction in FFXI)

To put all that in perspective, observe the following:

PlayerX is deciding between 5 attack and 1 haste, his current attack is 400, and his Haste is currently at 21%.

The addition to his attack would be 1.25% Which would look to PlayerX as a good idea being that 1.25% > 1% right? Wrong...

Going from 21% haste to 22% haste is the following:



21% haste is a 26.58% increase in attack rounds.
22% haste is a 28.21% increase in attack rounds.
- Or to put it simply a 1.29% increase in attack rounds.

But again, this is also comparing Apple to Oranges. 1.29% more hits is not the same thing as 1.25% more attack. It's more TP, faster Weaponskills, etc etc... But that is another discussion altogether.

Take the above situation now and assume PlayerX has haste cast on him.

Now we're looking at 36% haste upgrading to 37% haste:



36% haste is a 56.25% increase in attack rounds.
37% haste is a 58.73% increase in attack rounds.
- Or to put it simply a 1.59% increase in attack rounds.

As you can see, as the Haste value increases, as does the value of each haste.

Table 2:


Haste Hits Δ
00% - 100.0 - 0.00%
05% - 105.3 - 5.26%
10% - 111.1 - 5.56%
15% - 117.7 - 5.59%
20% - 125.0 - 6.25%
25% - 133.3 - 6.66%
30% - 142.9 - 7.14%
35% - 153.9 - 7.69%
40% - 166.7 - 8.33%
45% - 181.8 - 9.09%
50% - 200.0 - 10.0%
55% - 222.2 - 11.1%
60% - 250.0 - 12.5%
65% - 285.7 - 14.3%
70% - 333.3 - 16.7%
75% - 400.0 - 20.0%
80% - 500.0 - 25.0%

The perfect example being the difference between 75% and 80% delay reduction, the jump in damage between those two points is a massive 25% increase.

In perspective that 5% haste is like adding a whole party member, because the overall damage increase from 75% to 80% haste is adding another 100% of the base value.

Please take note however that other stats are extremely important too, and Haste just might make you "miss faster"...


Q: Wait... What about Double attack? Is it better than Haste???

A: No.

Table 3:
Number of attack rounds added (Per 100 rounds):

% DA Haste
00% - 0 - 0
05% - 5 - 5
10% - 10 - 11
15% - 15 - 18
20% - 20 - 25
25% - 25 - 33
30% - 30 - 43
35% - 35 - 54
40% - 40 - 67
45% - 45 - 82
50% - 50 - 100
55% - 55 - 122
60% - 60 - 150
65% - 65 - 186
70% - 70 - 233
75% - 75 - 300
80% - 80 - 400

Luckily the cases where Haste and Double Attack are put in an "Either/Or" situation is exceptionally rare. But when the choice does come up, you can see in that table, haste is the obvious choice.


Q: Is 2x March better than March/Minuet?

A: Yes.

The addition of Advancing March to Victory March nets an increase of 23% more attacks.

If Haste Samba is being used:
The addition of Advancing March to Victory March nets an increase of 38% more attacks.

At this time, there is no amount of Attack that can be added via Minuet that can offset the increased output Advancing March provides under normal to optimal situations.



And Finally...
Here it all is in a nutshell, a table of various, typical haste amounts the average player would experience in the field, and the differences between them:

Table 4:
Number of attack rounds added (Per 100 rounds):


Haste - Attack Rounds - Modifiers:
25.0% - 033 ---------- Gear (Base)
40.0% - 067 ---------- Gear + Haste
52.5% - 111 ---------- Gear + Haste + Victory March
55.0% - 122 ---------- Gear + Haste + Samba (Merited)
61.5% - 160 ---------- Gear + Haste + 2x Marches
67.5% - 208 ---------- Gear + Haste + Victory March + Samba
76.5% - 326 ---------- Gear + Haste + 2x Marches + Samba
80.0% - 400 ---------- Maximum weapon delay reduction in FFXI

[Alkalinehoe]

I love you.

I've met so many people who don't understand why haste is such a valuable stat. I'm really hoping this will educate some of the players who are unaware of the benefits of Haste. Anyways, good job on the guide, should definitely get stickied.

[Nidhogg]

So I should WS in haste cause I'll do 400% more damage then I would in any other stats?

[Frost]

So I should WS in haste cause I'll do 400% more damage then I would in any other stats?

I know you're just trolling, and so your comment doesn't ring a bell that can't be unrung....

My post was pretty much exclusively related to the "TP Phase" of game play and loosely includes the impact of haste on spell casting.

Gear swaps should always be used to maximize relevant job abilities, spells, weaponskills, etc.

[Helel]

Based on your chart above, are you saying that magical haste caps @25%? That's wrong, it actually caps @~43.75%. Only gear and ability haste caps @25%.

[Cream_Soda]

Based on your chart above, are you saying that magical haste caps @25%? That's wrong, it actually caps @~43.75%. Only gear and ability haste caps @25%.
This, haste from magic doesn't cap at 25%

[Dave_P]

I have loved haste since the early FF days. It is most def a huge asset that can easily be overlooked, nice write up.

[Alkalinehoe]

I would also add that it takes 26% haste to cap gear haste due to gear giving less values than actually listed.

[Frost]

Based on your chart above, are you saying that magical haste caps @25%? That's wrong, it actually caps @~43.75%. Only gear and ability haste caps @25%.

You're right, corrected!

[Frost]

I would also add that it takes 26% haste to cap gear haste due to gear giving less values than actually listed.

I actually debated on whether or not to put it at 25% or 26% because technically the cap IS 25%

The haste on gear that add up to that are not all accurately displayed. (As you stated)

The discrepancy is in the gear, not the cap.

Edit:
Btw thank you all for the input, I read this over like 30 times and fact checked my math and stuff.. But it's hard to get everything. I appreciate it.

[Greatguardian]

I actually debated on whether or not to put it at 25% or 26% because technically the cap IS 25%

The haste on gear that add up to that are not all accurately displayed. (As you stated)

The discrepancy is in the gear, not the cap.

Edit:
Btw thank you all for the input, I read this over like 30 times and fact checked my math and stuff.. But it's hard to get everything. I appreciate it.

This is correct.

The cap on haste from gear is 256/1024, or 25%. However, because the actual haste value is in bit form and the values of haste on gear is in %-form, rounding tends to occur which can cause discrepancies between your visible haste value and your actual haste value.

An example:
1% Haste on gear would round to 10.24/1024, but because the game floors values you're only actually getting 10/1024 of haste from that piece.

In most cases, a visible 25% Haste in gear translates to 250/1024, which is less than 25%. In order to truly get 25% haste, or 256/1024, you need to have 26% of visible Haste gear. However, because you were only missing 6/1024 while you had 25% visible Haste gear, that last 1% of visible haste is worth about half as much as each of the previous 1%'s of haste.

I think this is an excellent resource, by the way. I don't see anything wrong with your numbers in the OP, I just thought I'd clarify the 25/26% gear Haste bit in case anyone was interested.

[Burmecia]

Nice guide, thanks for putting this up. :)

[Cream_Soda]

21% haste is a 26.58% increase in attack rounds. 22% haste is a 28.21% increase in attack rounds. - Or to put it simply a 1.63% increase in attack rounds.

This is incorrect. It's pretty much never in terms of addition/subtraction and most often in terms of multiplication/division.

Let's look at it this way.

Our average dmg is 1 dmg/attack.

We go for 100 attack rounds.

21% haste, you get 26.58% extra attacks for 126.58 attacks total.
22% haste you get 28.21% extra attacks for 128.21 attacks total.

Since our average dmg is 1/hit (1 is just easy to work w/ any number would give same results).

128.21 dmg vs 126.58 dmg.

You gain 1.63 damage, in comparison, but you don't a 1.63% increase in damage.

128.21/126.58 = 1.29% increase in damage.

In that particular scenario, you're giving it slightly more credit than what it's worth.

[Cream_Soda]

A simple way to get the % increase from haste.

[(Amount of haste you're adding)/(100 - TOTAL HASTE)] x 100

by total haste, I mean YOU INCLUDE the haste you're adding.

So, for example, let's say you have 21% haste, and add 1% haste to total 22% haste.

1/(100-22) = 1/78 = .0128205128 x 100 = 1.28%


The number I calculated in my previous post (1.29%) is slightly off because we were using rounded figures.



The formula does match your chart perfectly though.

For example, going from 0 to 80% haste

[80/(100-80)] x 100 = [80/20] x 100 = [4] x 100 = 400% increase.

[Frost]

I thought I chose my words pretty carefully.
I said it was a 1.63% increase in attack rounds between those two points.

But you're right, it's not the difference, it's a product(good catch). However, due to the wording chosen, wouldn't 26.58% increase in hit rate to 28.21% increase in hit rate actually be 6.13% increase in hit rate between the two points?

Please confirm.

[Cream_Soda]

That would be correct.

[Frost]

26.58% to 28.21% is 6.13%

But...

85.19% to 88.68% is only 4.10%

And I know Haste is exponential, so what am I doing wrong here?

[Naturebeckles]

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

[Frost]

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

It's funny you of all people ended up posting here. Among others, it was ultimately your naivety that lead to this post.

[Greatguardian]

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

Frost is the OP. He is simply checking his work. Their discussion has been incredibly civil and has proven beneficial to the thread. I dare say it's far from pointless.

[Cream_Soda]

26.58% to 28.21% is 6.13%

But...

85.19% to 88.68% is only 4.10%

And I know Haste is exponential, so what am I doing wrong here?

Doesn't work that way for haste because the way it's calculated is different. You have to use the formula I gave you earlier.

Added haste/(100-total haste).

85.19 to 88.68 is adding 3.49 haste.

3.49/(100- total haste, including what you added)
3.49/(100-88.68)
3.49/11.32 = 30.83% increase (Fyi this is why the hard cap on haste is 80% because when it was higher, things just got plain insane.)


I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....
If you're fine with dealing lower damage, go right for it. I'm not here to tell anyone how they should or should not play, but if they want to perform better, I will post how you can achieve that. From there, you can decide whether or not you want to.

[Naturebeckles]

It's funny you of all people ended up posting here. Among others, it was ultimately your naivety that lead to this post.


Well, I'm proud of myself for inspiring you then. It's not going to change gearing my thf for dex, agi, and chr. I'd rather my trick attack hit harder, my evasion be higher and my dancing edge hit harder than change all my gear to the highest haste I can get, just to hit faster. Hitting faster isn't the only, nor is it the most important gear decision people can make on this game. It's YOUR opinion that it is.

[Naturebeckles]

Frost is the OP. He is simply checking his work. Their discussion has been incredibly civil and has proven beneficial to the thread. I dare say it's far from pointless.


He should have checked his work before posting then. This game has been around for 10 years now and people still have different opinions about the specifics of haste.

[sope]

This is probably the best guide on the official forums. Good job.

[Greatguardian]

He should have checked his work before posting then. This game has been around for 10 years now and people still have different opinions about the specifics of haste.

They agree though.

[HFX7686]

Well, I'm proud of myself for inspiring you then. It's not going to change gearing my thf for dex, agi, and chr. I'd rather my trick attack hit harder, my evasion be higher and my dancing edge hit harder than change all my gear to the highest haste I can get, just to hit faster. Hitting faster isn't the only, nor is it the most important gear decision people can make on this game. It's YOUR opinion that it is.

What? It's not an opinion. It's math. It's right. You're wrong. Good lord.

[Naturebeckles]

What? It's not an opinion. It's math. It's right. You're wrong. Good lord.

Apparently, you totally missed what I said. I said it's his opinion that haste is the most important gear choice that people can make in this game. It's apparent that he feels that way because he directly said that I was, among other people, the reason he made his original post in the first place. It was obvious to him that haste was not that important to me. So, maybe take a break from thinking for a while, or think another minute about what you just read before you reply to it.

[Cream_Soda]

I said it's your opinion that haste is the most important gear choice that people can make in this game.
It's can be an opinion based on what context you use it in. It also can be a fact based on what context you use it in.

For example: In terms of trying to evade a monster, you may have an opinion on what is a good balance of haste and evasion that may differ from someone else's.

It can also be a fact

For example: If damage is your number one priority, then x amount of haste is going to beat Y amount of another stat. This either happens or it doesn't happen depending on the value of x and the value of Y. Either way you look at it though, would be a fact in the scenario, not an opinion.

[HFX7686]

Apparently, you totally missed what I said. I said it's his opinion that haste is the most important gear choice that people can make in this game. It's apparent that he feels that way because he directly said that I was, among other people, the reason he made your original post in the first place. It was obvious to him that haste was not that important to me. So, maybe take a break from thinking for a while, or think another minute about what you just read before you reply to it.

You want to hit harder to do more damage so you don't change your gear.

You will do the same amount of damage per weapon skill as someone who stacks haste and switches to damage gear for their weapon skill.

You won't, however, do as much damage over time as that other person. They will do more weapon skills than you.

You do less damage and are less useful than someone who properly gears themselves with haste.

This is not an opinion.

[Naturebeckles]

You want to hit harder to do more damage so you don't change your gear.

You will do the same amount of damage per weapon skill as someone who stacks haste and switches to damage gear for their weapon skill.

You won't, however, do as much damage over time as that other person. They will do more weapon skills than you.

You do less damage and are less useful than someone who properly gears themselves with haste.

This is not an opinion.

But then I will die because the mob is crit hitting me or using a TP move at the same time that I'm changing gear for a weapon skill, causing my mage to not be able to cure me. Then I die and lose all my tp anyway.

I still win.

[rog]

It's sad that this is worth posting in 2011.

[RAIST]

It's not going to change gearing my thf for dex, agi, and chr. I'd rather my trick attack hit harder, my evasion be higher and my dancing edge hit harder than change all my gear to the highest haste I can get, just to hit faster. Hitting faster isn't the only, nor is it the most important gear decision people can make on this game. It's YOUR opinion that it is.

Guess you missed this post:



My post was pretty much exclusively related to the "TP Phase" of game play and loosely includes the impact of haste on spell casting.
Gear swaps should always be used to maximize relevant job abilities, spells, weaponskills, etc.



The point of haste is always been about increasing efficiency. Look at MNK. It grabs hate so easily now because it's just too freaking fast. I used to be real lazy with it and basically just swap for WS and Chakra, but now I HAVE to have macros to swap in gears to keep myself alive now (among others, a damage reduction and an evasion set)--but my main set focuses a good bit on haste to reduce delay with a few pieces to make sure I'm still hitting for TP.

My freaking SAM and DRG arein about the same boat too because they still in in Perle for TP (one day I'll get around to farming NM's for them)--that haste really ramps up the hate when you are spamming the WS.

Raist

[Cream_Soda]

using a TP move at the same time that I'm changing gear for a weapon skill, causing my mage to not be able to cure me. Then I die and lose all my tp anyway.

I still win.
What does gear swapping have to do with your mage's ability to cure you?

[Naturebeckles]

Guess you missed this post:



The point of haste is always been about increasing efficiency. Look at MNK. It grabs hate so easily now because it's just too freaking fast. I used to be real lazy with it and basically just swap for WS and Chakra, but now I HAVE to have macros to swap in gears to keep myself alive now (among others, a damage reduction and an evasion set)--but my main set focuses a good bit on haste to reduce delay with a few pieces to make sure I'm still hitting for TP.

My freaking SAM and DRG arein about the same boat too because they still in in Perle for TP (one day I'll get around to farming NM's for them)--that haste really ramps up the hate when you are spamming the WS.

Raist

I did not miss it. But I don't gear swap for weapon skills. I'm not a moron who yells at mages for letting me die even though it's my own fault because I gear swapped and they couldn't cure me. I see it happen all the time to other people and after playing this game for three years, it makes me laugh now.

[Greatguardian]

What does gear swapping have to do with your mage's ability to cure you?

Everything, according to far too many horrible horrible mages these days. @Nature: <stpt>, <stal>, f1-f6, learn them, love them, spread the joy.

If a mage lets someone die because of a gear swap, the mage is bad. There are normal macro tags that eliminate the loss of target when blinking, and they have been in the game for years now. It's not hard.

[Cream_Soda]

I did not miss it. But I don't gear swap for weapon skills. I'm not a moron who yells at mages for letting me die even though it's my own fault because I gear swapped and they couldn't cure me. I see it happen all the time to other people and after playing this game for three years, it makes me laugh now.


What does gear swapping have to do with your mage's ability to cure you?

I ask once again

[Cream_Soda]

Everything, according to far too many horrible horrible mages these days. @Nature: <stpt>, <stal>, f1-f6, learn them, love them, spread the joy.
:/ first Dubberrucky and now this, lol. Bask in the glory of Sylph. I should consider myself lucky to be there, no?

[Ciecle]

Haste is not important, Getting more tp for weapon skills faster is irrelevant and stupid. And people who think haste is useful are stupid and Opinions are like assholes everyone has them.

obvious troll is obvious.

[RAIST]

But then I will die because the mob is crit hitting me or using a TP move at the same time that I'm changing gear for a weapon skill, causing my mage to not be able to cure me. Then I die and lose all my tp anyway.

I still win.


Um... then your mage doesn't have macros set up right... still amazes me that mages don't use the tags to select party/alliance members with their cures. Also...with all the macro banks available now, it's easy to have a macro set for that oh Sh!t I can't shed hate and swap in gear for survival.

Raist

[HFX7686]

I did not miss it. But I don't gear swap for weapon skills. I'm not a moron who yells at mages for letting me die even though it's my own fault because I gear swapped and they couldn't cure me. I see it happen all the time to other people and after playing this game for three years, it makes me laugh now.

I play WHM. I don't have any problem with melee blinking. I don't use any game "enhancements". You apparently have had only bad WHM to accompany your bad THF.

[Naturebeckles]

What does gear swapping have to do with your mage's ability to cure you?


Are you serious with me? Not everybody plays on PC with windower with Blink Me Not. Why don't you play on whm without Blink Me Not and try curing or casting other spells on somebody who constantly gear swaps in a fight. Then get back with me.

[Ciecle]

Are you serious with me? Not everybody plays on PC with windower with Blink Me Not. Why don't you play on whm without Blink Me Not and try curing or casting other spells on somebody who constantly gear swaps in a fight. Then get back with me.

I play with out blinkmenot. It's called <stpt> YAY

[Naturebeckles]

obvious troll is obvious.

Especially trolls who change an entire quote. I hope the mods see it. Very funny.

[Greatguardian]

:/ first Dubberrucky and now this, lol. Bask in the glory of Sylph. I should consider myself lucky to be there, no?

If you don't know anyone who still pulls that crap, definitely. The only mages I regularly do things with are better than that, but I definitely still hear it all the time from mages I know to be bad, in shout, or if I'm doing anything to help a friend of mine and his/her lowbie shell.

[Ciecle]

Especially trolls who change an entire quote. I hope the mods see it. Very funny.
Isn't it? i mean that was the jist of your posts thus far. take it for what you will, You're being irrational and very aggressive. It was ment to be funny. If you don't like trolls, take your trolling elsewhere.

[RaenRyong]

Healers who can't cure you just suck.

There is no excuse to not swap gear. If you do not swap gear, you are a bad player. If you are content with being bad, that's fine - we are simply saying you are bad as in below satisfactory in a focused group. Not everybody plays to be the best and I can accept this, but don't bring up not changing gear as if it's an alternative. It is the WRONG way to do things.

[Cream_Soda]

Are you serious with me? Not everybody plays on PC with windower with Blink Me Not. Why don't you play on whm without Blink Me Not and try curing or casting other spells on somebody who constantly gear swaps in a fight. Then get back with me.
You don't need a windower, PC, nor blinkmenot.

It's called
<stpt>
<stal>

You pick your target from the party list, not by targeting their character. It makes no difference how many times they blink, it has 0 effect on the mage's ability to cast on that person.

[HFX7686]

Are you serious with me? Not everybody plays on PC with windower with Blink Me Not. Why don't you play on whm without Blink Me Not and try curing or casting other spells on somebody who constantly gear swaps in a fight. Then get back with me.

I'll say it again since my post was on the last page (at least with my settings).

I play WHM without blinkmenot. I don't have any problems. Apparently you've only played with bad WHMs on your bad THF (not a surprise). Blinking, however, is not an excuse for intentionally gimping yourself.

[Alkalinehoe]

My reaction to Nature:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-5m6INcPP4

[Greatguardian]

Are you serious with me? Not everybody plays on PC with windower with Blink Me Not. Why don't you play on whm without Blink Me Not and try curing or casting other spells on somebody who constantly gear swaps in a fight. Then get back with me.

You don't need blinkmenot. <stpt>. <stal>. f1-f6 faster. It's very easy to manage if a mage cares at all.

[rog]

Are you serious with me? Not everybody plays on PC with windower with Blink Me Not. Why don't you play on whm without Blink Me Not and try curing or casting other spells on somebody who constantly gear swaps in a fight. Then get back with me.
Just fyi, <stpt> and <stal> will allow you to target a blinking christmas tree, without any problems, even without blinkmenot.

[Naturebeckles]

Well, so happy I'm in such good company with a crap load of such high quality players that are just so perfect in every way that they never have any problem curing anybody in this game without enhancements. I bow down to all of you and will immediately go buy and obtain all the haste gear I can so I can be just like all of you.

[rog]

Well, so happy I'm in such good company with a crap load of such high quality players that are just so perfect in every way that they never have any problem curing anybody in this game without enhancements. I bow down to all of you and will immediately go buy and obtain all the haste gear I can so I can be just like all of you.
You don't need to be a good player to use <stpt> macros.

[Naturebeckles]

Just fyi, <stpt> and <stal> will allow you to target a blinking christmas tree, without any problems, even without blinkmenot.

I've never seen <stal>, so i'm going to have to try that and see how it works. And I'm serious about that since you're the only person who hasn't talked to me like I'm a complete idiot.

[RaenRyong]

If the net result of this is that you do start using Haste then we've been productive here today.

[Ciecle]

Well, so happy I'm in such good company with a crap load of such high quality players that are just so perfect in every way that they never have any problem curing anybody in this game without enhancements. I bow down to all of you and will immediately go buy and obtain all the haste gear I can so I can be just like all of you.

And so, the troll has thus been defeated! WAIT WHAT'S THIS HE HAD AUTO-RERAISE?!!? NOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[HFX7686]

Well, so happy I'm in such good company with a crap load of such high quality players that are just so perfect in every way that they never have any problem curing anybody in this game without enhancements. I bow down to all of you and will immediately go buy and obtain all the haste gear I can so I can be just like all of you.

Mission accomplished. As soon as the servers are back up, get to it.

[rog]

I've never seen <stal>, so i'm going to have to try that and see how it works. And I'm serious about that since you're the only person who hasn't talked to me like I'm a complete idiot.
At least not in this thread.

[Alkalinehoe]

Well, so happy I'm in such good company with a crap load of such high quality players that are just so perfect in every way that they never have any problem curing anybody in this game without enhancements. I bow down to all of you and will immediately go buy and obtain all the haste gear I can so I can be just like all of you.
<stal> doesn't take skill. But in light of learning about it, are you genuinely going to change your playstyle or become ignorant? I can accept a player who doesn't know any better, but I won't take any sympathy towards the one that does and refuses to admit they're wrong.

[RAIST]

You don't need blinkmenot. <stpt>. <stal>. f1-f6 faster. It's very easy to manage if a mage cares at all.

|True Strike|

I make the cure call with the select tag first, then swap in the key cure potency pieces (Aqua ammo thing, lore slops, etc if they are available for the job) on even SMN, DRG, or BST ffs. It's not rocket science to do it right.

Raist

[Greatguardian]

I've never seen <stal>, so i'm going to have to try that and see how it works. And I'm serious about that since you're the only person who hasn't talked to me like I'm a complete idiot.

<stpt> will create a blue arrow on your party list, allowing you to choose members for the target of a spell by scrolling up and down the party list itself with the arrow keys, starting at the person whom you were originally targetting.

<stal> is the same thing, but allows the arrow to move up and down into the entire Alliance list rather than being confined to your party.

Neither of these are affected by blinking, because you are not targeting a player. You are targeting their name on your party list. They were added in a patch a few years ago, and I've recommended them to every mage I've met since then. Unfortunately, most people are just too lazy to switch, and that does make them bad mages.

[Naturebeckles]

At least not in this thread.

Well, right. That's what I meant.

[Cream_Soda]

I've never seen <stal>, so i'm going to have to try that and see how it works. And I'm serious about that since you're the only person who hasn't talked to me like I'm a complete idiot.
yes you have

I've mentioned it more than once prior to his post and other people have mentioned it as well.

Unless you're just a huge selective reader.

[rog]

Unless you're just a huge selective reader.
That would seem to be the case.


Well, right. That's what I meant.It's ok, because i was definitely thinking it when i made the post.

[RaenRyong]

I'm normally not an ass to people but when someone takes their time to write up a guide about the most important melee stat in the game, clearing its misconceptions and clearly explaining its use to players who perhaps were not convinced before and then you come in with the whole "you don't need haste, hitting harder > hitting faster, opinions > facts" view, I have to say something.

This is a guide thread - an informative thread. Everybody decides at what level they want to play (for instance, I don't play WAR even though it's technically the strongest DD - but I don't go around telling everybody that WAR being strong is just an opinion). If you don't want to swap gear, that's entirely up to you. If you never want to weaponskill, that's entirely up to you. Just don't advocate such styles of play in an informative thread.

[Naturebeckles]

<stal> doesn't take skill. But in light of learning about it, are you genuinely going to change your playstyle or become ignorant? I can accept a player who doesn't know any better, but I won't take any sympathy towards the one that does and refuses to admit they're wrong.


I'm not really sure what I'm wrong about. Choosing to not gear swap is my own personal game choice. It doesn't even make me a bad player. And it's not like I don't wear any haste at all. I just balance it out with other gear that has strong stats in other things so I don't have to gear swap. Some of you totally missed my sarcasm earlier, which made me bust out laughing. So, it's whatever I guess.

[Naturebeckles]

yes you have

I've mentioned it more than once prior to his post and other people have mentioned it as well.

Unless you're just a huge selective reader.

I meant before this thread and I largely ignore you because just like to hear yourself talk.

[rog]

Choosing to not gear swap is my own personal game choice. It doesn't even make me a bad player.I'm afraid it does, actually.

[Alkalinehoe]

I'm not really sure what I'm wrong about. Choosing to not gear swap is my own personal game choice. It doesn't even make me a bad player. And it's not like I don't wear any haste at all. I just balance it out with other gear that has strong stats in other things so I don't have to gear swap. Some of you totally missed my sarcasm earlier, which made me bust out laughing. So, it's whatever I guess.
It really does.

[Cream_Soda]

I'm not really sure what I'm wrong about. Choosing to not gear swap is my own personal game choice. It doesn't even make me a bad player. And it's not like I don't wear any haste at all. I just balance it out with other gear that has strong stats in other things so I don't have to gear swap. Some of you totally missed my sarcasm earlier, which made me bust out laughing. So, it's whatever I guess.
Well, you're kinda right.

"bad" is subjective. So to you, you may not be a bad player.

To the majority, however, you're not going to find agreeing opinions.

[Naturebeckles]

I'm normally not an ass to people but when someone takes their time to write up a guide about the most important melee stat in the game, clearing its misconceptions and clearly explaining its use to players who perhaps were not convinced before and then you come in with the whole "you don't need haste, hitting harder > hitting faster, opinions > facts" view, I have to say something.

This is a guide thread - an informative thread. Everybody decides at what level they want to play (for instance, I don't play WAR even though it's technically the strongest DD - but I don't go around telling everybody that WAR being strong is just an opinion). If you don't want to swap gear, that's entirely up to you. If you never want to weaponskill, that's entirely up to you. Just don't advocate such styles of play in an informative thread.

Why not? Why can't I advocate other styles of play in an informative thread? This all started because the original poster said I was naive. I wouldn't be partially trolling/defending my style of game play otherwise.

[HFX7686]

I'm not really sure what I'm wrong about. Choosing to not gear swap is my own personal game choice. It doesn't even make me a bad player. And it's not like I don't wear any haste at all. I just balance it out with other gear that has strong stats in other things so I don't have to gear swap. Some of you totally missed my sarcasm earlier, which made me bust out laughing. So, it's whatever I guess.

It does, in fact make you a bad player to advocate a play style that is not efficient. Especially in a thread about a play style that is.

Also, I don't think it was us that missed the sarcasm.

[Naturebeckles]

It really does.


No, it doesn't. I may not be the absolute best player in the game, but I'm not a bad player. At all. None of you on this thread even play with me on the game to even make that call. So all of you who say I'm a bad player just because I'm not a haste whore can take a flying leap off a short pier for all I care.

[RaenRyong]

Every single player across every single server who swaps gear has a decent chance of being a better DD so it depends how you define bad.

I've been a main tank in many incarnations throughout my time playing the game and while being the focus of healer attention have gear swapped extensively. I have never to my recollection died as a result. I've lost a handful of hastes and a handful of cures but that's about it - I've never died from it (again to my recollection) and it improved my efficiency tremendously.

[Cream_Soda]

No, it doesn't. I may not be the absolute best player in the game, but I'm not a bad player. At all. None of you on this thread even play with me on the game to even make that call. So all of you who say I'm a bad player just because I'm not a haste whore can take a flying leap off a short pier for all I care.
We'd be able to leap off the pier faster than you. We have haste.

[rog]

Why not? Why can't I advocate other styles of play in an informative thread? This all started because the original poster said I was naive. I wouldn't be partially trolling/defending my style of game play otherwise.
Because your "style" of play is intentionally gimp. it does not even attempt to perform at an acceptable standard.

[Alkalinehoe]

No, it doesn't. I may not be the absolute best player in the game, but I'm not a bad player. At all. None of you on this thread even play with me on the game to even make that call. So all of you who say I'm a bad player just because I'm not a haste whore can take a flying leap off a short pier for all I care.
If you're not gear swapping, then you're going to be miles behind someone who does and that makes a bad player.

[Cream_Soda]

:( I feel sorry for the OP. The thread is dedicated to the thread's biggest critic. It even has their name right there in the title.

[Naturebeckles]

Well, you're kinda right.

"bad" is subjective. So to you, you may not be a bad player.

To the majority, however, you're not going to find agreeing opinions.

Exactly... not going to find agreeing opinions. And equally, several of you saying I'm a bad player is also subjective and I might add BASELESS since nobody on this thread so far plays with me to have any observations to back up that opinion.

[rog]

No, it doesn't. I may not be the absolute best player in the game, but I'm not a bad player.
You can't possibly be doing more than 1/4th the damage of a decent dd based on what i've read so far. Personally i would define that as bad.

[HFX7686]

No, it doesn't. I may not be the absolute best player in the game, but I'm not a bad player. At all. None of you on this thread even play with me on the game to even make that call. So all of you who say I'm a bad player just because I'm not a haste whore can take a flying leap off a short pier for all I care.

Based on the description of your gear and play style most experienced players would be able to come to the likely correct conclusion that you are a bad player.

[RaenRyong]

Why not? Why can't I advocate other styles of play in an informative thread?

For the sake of the thread's integrity, provide information with the same or similar level of depth to the original post's.

Provide mathematical or logically reasoned evidence to suggest that not swapping gear produces better results than swapping gear and using full Haste for TP. If you can do that, I will gladly remove my criticism.

[Naturebeckles]

We'd be able to leap off the pier faster than you. We have haste.

Then by all means! Be my guest! LOL

[Niyah]

It's sad that this is worth posting in 2011.

After all these years of playing FFXI, I hope new members understand the importance of haste. I hate always having to remind mages to haste.

Great guide Frost!!!

[HFX7686]

For the sake of the thread's integrity, provide information with the same or similar level of depth to the original post's.

Provide mathematical or logically reasoned evidence to suggest that not swapping gear produces better results than swapping gear and using full Haste for TP. If you can do that, I will gladly remove my criticism.

Repeating this for emphasis. Go for it Naturebeckles.

[Cream_Soda]

Exactly... not going to find agreeing opinions. And equally, several of you saying I'm a bad player is also subjective and I might add BASELESS since nobody on this thread so far plays with me to have any observations to back up that opinion.
On that note, your saying that you're a good player is also baseless.

[Naturebeckles]

For the sake of the thread's integrity, provide information with the same or similar level of depth to the original post's.

Provide mathematical or logically reasoned evidence to suggest that not swapping gear produces better results than swapping gear and using full Haste for TP. If you can do that, I will gladly remove my criticism.

well, first of all... I never claimed that my game style produces better results. I just said there's nothing wrong with my game style.

Let me say this to all of you:

I lead Dynamis runs. Successfully. Most of our LS has access to all zones. I've been leading Dynamis for a year now. I'm the main puller. I often lead events in my social LS for mission fights/Boss fights, etc because I'm very good at battle strategy. Even if we fail the first time, I'm good at pointing out our groups mistakes and adjusting things to make it a success the next time. Why do I say all this? To provide examples of how I'm a good player.

Maybe my downfall is the fact that I don't gear swap for WS's and build lots of haste. Ok.

But - for you to call me a bad player based on that one fact? Just proves how judgmental and ignorant you are and is exactly why I don't play with a lot of "elitest" players who have gear choices on such a high pedestal, that you'd call a good player a bad one without knowing jack about that person outside of their gear choices.

Golf claps for all of you.

[Cream_Soda]

etc because I'm very good at battle strategy.
I can picture it now

"Ok guys, nobody swap gear. This way, the whm can't miss you w/ his spells!"

[rog]

But - for you to call me a bad player based on that one fact?Yes. If you understood even basic game concepts, you would never gear yourself that way. But you do, which means you don't have any clue how the game works. You are likely doing all kinds of other incredibly silly things (like not knowing about <stpt>...) as well.

[HFX7686]

well, first of all... I never claimed that my game style produces better results. I just said there's nothing wrong with my game style.

The OP showed you mathematically what was wrong with your game style.

This is not an elitist equation. You could put a little work in and get a few pieces of fairly easily obtainable gear and change your play style based on this thread. This is not camping Fafnir/Nidhogg every day for 3 hours at all hours sort of work.

[Invasion]

I stack Double Attack over Haste myself.

[Greatguardian]

If the semantics are that big a deal, fine. You're a good player.

You're a horrible DD.

But you're fine as a player if those are your standards.

[Naturebeckles]

The OP showed you mathematically what was wrong with your game style.

This is not an elitist equation. You could put a little work in and get a few pieces of fairly easily obtainable gear and change your play style based on this thread. This is not camping Fafnir/Nidhogg every day for 3 hours at all hours sort of work.

On my thf I wear the Aurore Hat and Gloves (when i don't need my TH Gloves), the earring from ZM that gives enhanced dual wield effect and a swift belt. That's all the haste I wear. It's just not my emphasis to wear other pieces and then gear swap for weapon skills.

[rog]

I stack Double Attack over Haste myself.
What, not triple attack?

[Naturebeckles]

I stack Double Attack over Haste myself.


I was beginning to think i was alone in here. lol

[Naturebeckles]

If the semantics are that big a deal, fine. You're a good player.

You're a horrible DD.

But you're fine as a player if those are your standards.

I can admit I'm not a good DD... even wearing Byakko's Haidates and Kirin's Osode on my War and Sam. I know I'm not the best. I'm okay with that.

[rog]

I can admit I'm not a good DD... even wearing Byakko's Haidates and Kirin's Osode on my War and Sam. I know I'm not the best. I'm okay with that.
You are not even in the top 75%.

[Cream_Soda]

I was beginning to think i was alone in here. lol
He was probably being sarcastic.

Well that's how I read it anyways. If not, then lol.

[rog]

He was probably being sarcastic.

Well that's how I read it anyways. If not, then lol.
I sure hope so.

[Cream_Soda]

You are not even in the top 75%.
http://i33.tinypic.com/28lb4uf.jpg

[Naturebeckles]

You are not even in the top 75%.



Not everybody can be as good as you, rog.

[rog]

Not everybody can be as good as you, rog.
That's ok, as long as you put some effort in, and do as well as you can do.

[Alkalinehoe]

On my thf I wear the Aurore Hat and Gloves (when i don't need my TH Gloves), the earring from ZM that gives enhanced dual wield effect and a swift belt. That's all the haste I wear. It's just not my emphasis to wear other pieces and then gear swap for weapon skills.
/facepalm.

You're a leader of a dynamis shell and aurore is really the best you can do? But then I guess it's not like Dynamis is really an accomplishment.

[Naturebeckles]

/facepalm.

You're a leader of a dynamis shell and aurore is really the best you can do? But then I guess it's not like Dynamis is really an accomplishment.

Oh, but I guess standing around in Port Jeuno wearing pretty gear with your thumb up your butt is an accomplishment? I bet you do really well at that.

[Invasion]

Yea don't mind me, just trollin.

[Invasion]

I was beginning to think i was alone in here. lol

You are still alone in here.

[Naturebeckles]

You are still alone in here.

well, that's ok. Soon, only the haste whores will be left. I have school tomorrow and need to go to bed.

[rog]

well, that's ok. Soon, only the haste whores will be left. I have school tomorrow and need to go to bed.
I hope the bullies at your HS don't bother you too much :(

[Invasion]

Sounds like you need it.

[Naturebeckles]

I hope the bullies at your HS don't bother you too much :(



I'm 31 years old and have been out of high school for a while now. I'm in technical school for 40 hours a week to learn a new job since jobs suck around here.

[Alkalinehoe]

Oh, but I guess standing around in Port Jeuno wearing pretty gear with your thumb up your butt is an accomplishment? I bet you do really well at that.

I actually do really well at that, along with 99% of game content. Look, if you want to feign ignorance that's fine and dandy, but trying to take swipes at people who actually enjoy playing the game with some intelligence then maybe you shouldn't post in this thread.

[Cream_Soda]

well, that's ok. Soon, only the haste whores will be left. I have school tomorrow and need to go to bed.



I'm 31 years old and have been out of high school for a while now. I'm in technical school for 40 hours a week to learn a new job since jobs suck around here.

how's that sleep workin out for you?

[Naturebeckles]

I actually do really well at that, along with 99% of game content. Look, if you want to feign ignorance that's fine and dandy, but trying to take swipes at people who actually enjoy playing the game with some intelligence then maybe you shouldn't post in this thread.


I was wondering if you were going to post before I decided to go to bed.

Um, let's see... I'm a person with at least SOME intelligence who also enjoys playing the game. You took the first swipe. I was just returning the favor. Have a nice night.

[Alkalinehoe]

I was wondering if you were going to post before I decided to go to bed.

Um, let's see... I'm a person with at least SOME intelligence who also enjoys playing the game. You took the first swipe. I was just returning the favor. Have a nice night.
It took a while to come up since you wear so little haste.

[Cream_Soda]

Goodnight again

[rog]

Um, let's see... I'm a person with at least SOME intelligence
Ah, that's good.

[Naturebeckles]

It took a while to come up since you wear so little haste.

So you wear the best gear in the game but use a crappy computer and internet service?

[Cream_Soda]

Welcome back

[Alkalinehoe]

So you wear the best gear in the game but use a crappy computer and internet service?
When did I claim to have the best gear? I just gear sensibly, something you do not do.

And it's past your bedtime! Get in bed!

[Kuishen]

Can't resist posting any longer.

Fact: Using Haste in your TP set, as stated by the OP, increases your damage.

Fact: Not using gear swaps means you do not understand basic game mechanics.

Fact: Not understanding basic game mechanics means you are not a good player.

Fact: The above statement is true for any game, sport, etc.

Opinion: Naturebeckles is a moron.

Fact: This post is a clear representation of the difference between a fact and opinion.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

Don't swap out gear if you don't want to, but you wont peek your damage on WS. I level both DRG and DNC as my mains, and I will say that TPing in haste gear (with a little ACC and the rest ATT) and WSing in ATT/STR gear is the best way to go.

Heck I even go farther with DNC, in that I swap to +cure equipment for my waltzes, and ACC gear for my steps

[Alkalinehoe]

Don't swap out gear if you don't want to, but you wont peek your damage on WS. I level both DRG and DNC as my mains, and I will say that TPing in haste gear (with a little ACC and the rest ATT) and WSing in ATT/STR gear is the best way to go.
If you are capping acc, then you're doing pretty well. If not, I would prioritize ACC>ATTK. And of course gearing for your WS is situational (STR isn't the mod for every WS and sometimes ATTK doesn't have much if any effect)


Heck I even go farther with DNC, in that I swap to +cure equipment for my waltzes, and ACC gear for my steps
I would hope every DNC does this, but good none the less.

[Frost]

First I had an error saying "Haste" was adding 25% and no one caught it!

I fixed that and figured out where my brain took a left turn in the percentages between percentages. All should be good now. Added another table to show the relation of haste as it stacks, hoping it would better illustrate the point.. idk, might look a little too imposing.

Math should be right, tables should be right.

Dig in.

[Naturebeckles]

When did I claim to have the best gear? I just gear sensibly, something you do not do.

And it's past your bedtime! Get in bed!


You don't even know the entire set of gear that I wear and you say that. LOL

Have you looked me up on the AH website by any chance?

[Kuishen]

On topic: Frost, thank you for attempting at least to educate the ignorant masses. I don't know if it'll work but yeah, good job and all. Sorry that Nature ruined your thread.

@Nature: Fact: The very fact that you don't gear swap means you don't gear sensibly.

Opinion: You need to stop posting. Giving women a bad name.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

If you are capping acc, then you're doing pretty well. If not, I would prioritize ACC>ATTK. And of course gearing for your WS is situational (STR isn't the mod for every WS and sometimes ATTK doesn't have much if any effect)


I would hope every DNC does this, but good none the less.

yeah you are right, it is not always STR and ATT, but I was just giving a general example of my setup....that and I just came back from a year break, so my gear is a bit outdated ;p (still really decent for what I do though)

[Alkalinehoe]

You don't even know the entire set of gear that I wear and you say that. LOL

Have you looked me up on the AH website by any chance?
/sigh

I thought we've been over this. Knowing that you full time Aurore head/Gloves/Swift already shows that DoT is going to be horrible and wearing those will also be gimping your WS damage.

And thanks for the hint, I just looked you up. And I'm not surprised. You have ok WS gear, but that's really what it is, WS gear. If you TP'ed in a good haste build and WS'ed in WS gear then you'd be a great player, i'm sure. Hell, You could be wearing W. Turban and the rest aurore during TP and I would fine with that. At least you know which stats go where and when.

I don't expect anyone to have the best gear nor great gear. As long as they gear sensibly, they're fine by me.

[Naturebeckles]

On topic: Frost, thank you for attempting at least to educate the ignorant masses. I don't know if it'll work but yeah, good job and all. Sorry that Nature ruined your thread.

@Nature: Fact: The very fact that you don't gear swap means you don't gear sensibly.

Opinion: You need to stop posting. Giving women a bad name.

Oh, well in that case, I'll come back after school tomorrow and keep at it. Getting under your skin is making me giggle. (FACT).

[rog]

Oh, well in that case, I'll come back after school tomorrow and keep at it. Getting under your skin is making me giggle. (FACT).I just hope you make it through school all right, and are able to stay awake, despite staying up so late tonight.

[Alkalinehoe]

I just hope you make it through school all right, and are able to stay awake, despite staying up so late tonight.

Pfft too late for that, it's 10pm already, I would just stay up the whole night and get some coffee in the morning.

[Kuishen]

Oh, well in that case, I'll come back after school tomorrow and keep at it. Getting under your skin is making me giggle. (FACT).

Fact: Making yourself look like a retard does not bother me in the slightest.

Fact: Your statement means you are actively trying to shit up a thread instead of contributing to the topic.

Fact: That makes you a troll.

Opinion: A troll that believes what he's trolling is the worst kind of troll.

[HFX7686]

Oh, well in that case, I'll come back after school tomorrow and keep at it. Getting under your skin is making me giggle. (FACT).

As a female player myself, I am horrified by your posts.

[rog]

Pfft too late for that, it's 10pm already, I would just stay up the whole night and get some coffee in the morning.
I'm still worried that he'll fall asleep while driving :(

[Naturebeckles]

/sigh

I thought we've been over this. Knowing that you full time Aurore head/Gloves/Swift already shows that DoT is going to be horrible and wearing those will also be gimping your WS damage.

And thanks for the hint, I just looked you up. And I'm not surprised. You have ok WS gear, but that's really what it is, WS gear. If you TP'ed in a good haste build and WS'ed in WS gear then you'd be a great player, i'm sure. Hell, You could be wearing W. Turban and the rest aurore during TP and I would fine with that. At least you know which stats go where and when.

I don't expect anyone to have the best gear nor great gear. As long as they gear sensibly, they're fine by me.

Thank you. I appreciate the much kinder response.

[Naturebeckles]

Fact: Making yourself look like a retard does not bother me in the slightest.

Fact: Your statement means you are actively trying to shit up a thread instead of contributing to the topic.

Fact: That makes you a troll.

Opinion: A troll that believes what he's trolling is the worst kind of troll.

FACT: I live under bridges.

[Naturebeckles]

As a female player myself, I am horrified by your posts.


FACT: I don't really care.

[rog]

OPINION: we should starting putting FACT or OPINION in front of every sentence we write, from now on.

[Naturebeckles]

OPINION: we should starting putting FACT or OPINION in front of every sentence we write, from now on.

OPINION: I think that's a great idea.

[Kuishen]

OPINION: we should starting putting FACT or OPINION in front of every sentence we write, from now on.

Amused Query: HK-47 anybody?

Fact: Done replying to Nature. Apologies to OP.

[Fondle]

OPINION: I think that's a great idea.

FACT: I too feel as you do, in that it is my $12.95 and I should be able to wear whatever I want because it looks cool or whatever and all these other people are taking it way too seriously.

[Naturebeckles]

FACT: I too feel as you do, in that it is my $12.95 and I should be able to wear whatever I want because it looks cool or whatever and all these other people are taking it way too seriously.



FACT: BINGO! I love you Fondle!

[Cream_Soda]

FACT: I too feel as you do, in that it is my $12.95 and I should be able to wear whatever I want because it looks cool or whatever and all these other people are taking it way too seriously.
It's my $12.95 and I'm allowed to call what I see on my screen good or bad!

[Fondle]

FACT: We aren't "gimp" or whatever you nerds call it, we're just misunderstood. dealwithit.jpg

[Naturebeckles]

It's my $12.95 and I'm allowed to call what I see on my screen good or bad!

You pay 12.95 just to use the forums?

[Kuishen]

It's my $12.95 and I'm allowed to call what I see on my screen good or bad!

They can also liberally misunderstand the difference between a fact and an opinion as well it seems.

EDIT: I also have the sneaking suspicion that Fondle is her husband that she claims to have in her sig.

[rog]

You pay 12.95 just to use the forums?
I do. Pay $12.95 just to use forums with a silly 10 character minimum, that is.

[Fondle]

I am actually gay but back to rerailing this thread, I don't see why you need an idealized gear setup or group setup to do anything in FFXI because nothing takes such a group or person to do and if you are going to say BUT WAT ABOOT THE DROPS for an unoptimized group then you need to get your priorities straight because they are just pixels and this is a game for social interaction.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Nice explanation of how haste works..

for those wishing to cap their DD output and such

obviously not for everybody ..... if you are trying to be casual or w/e not sure why people like naturebeckles are trolling up the thread...

Just go be content with w/e gear you have and have a nice day :o

[Cream_Soda]

You pay 12.95 just to use the forums?
I'm on your server, lol.

[Naturebeckles]

I am actually gay but back to rerailing this thread, I don't see why you need an idealized gear setup or group setup to do anything in FFXI because nothing takes such a group or person to do and if you are going to say BUT WAT ABOOT THE DROPS for an unoptimized group then you need to get your priorities straight because they are just pixels and this is a game for social interaction.

I still think my ability to run missions and boss fights makes me a better player than someone who wears the best gear in the game. Of course, that's my opinion. I don't know what planet some of these people are from. I don't know a single person in my RL who can accept being called a bad anything without getting offended or feel like they're being bashed.

[rog]

I still think my ability to run missions and boss fights makes me a better player than someone who wears the best gear in the game. Of course, that's my opinion. I don't know what planet some of these people are from. I don't know a single person in my RL who can accept being called a bad anything without getting offended or feel like they're being bashed.
Being able to lead others to play the game well is not quite the same as being able to play well yourself. Leading requires a very different set of skills than actually playing.

So, i guess you're just staying up all night then? It's been over an hour since you said you were going to sleep.

[Frost]

I ain't mad. Y'all can stop apologizing to me really, i appreciate the effort though.

One of life's greatest gifts is when an opponent bolsters your reputation at the sacrifice of their own.

I didn't make this post to troll them, or anyone. Ii I wanted to troll them, I'd do so in their respective posts. But think it better to ere on the side of "Maybe they just don't know" rather than assume they're idiots, and do my part to teach rather than scold.

I JUST got done reading the entire dogpile that's happening. And I am currently thinking of ways to better illustrate the benefits of Gear swaps in light of the um... "Discoveries" acquired in the wake of my original post... Amazingly even shouts and insults carry loads of information. I'll be back some other time to see what I can do.

[Fondle]

Yeah maybe I don't know what an "ace's helm" is or gain any benefits from wearing my Goblin Coif in all situations, but I enjoy playing the game and interacting with people.

[Cream_Soda]

Oh, I get it. If you try to get good gear, you can't enjoy the game or your interactions with others.

[Naturebeckles]

Being able to lead others to play the game well is not quite the same as being able to play well yourself. Leading requires a very different set of skills than actually playing.

So, i guess you're just staying up all night then? It's been over an hour since you said you were going to sleep.

You're right about both statements. Daylight savings time is actually screwing me up. My body thinks it's quarter to one instead of quarter to two. Leading does in fact require a very different set of skills. But I'm not bad at playing either. the few times I've played my mage jobs, I'm constantly asking for my husband's feedback because all his mages are level 90 except for smn and sch and he's a better player than me. I'll outright admit it to anyone. He has all kinds of gear swapping macros for his mage jobs too.

[rog]

Yeah maybe I don't know what an "ace's helm" is or gain any benefits from wearing my Goblin Coif in all situations, but I enjoy playing the game and interacting with people.
That is fine, as long as you understand that doing so is one of the worst things you could do to your job performance, and don't try to convince others to follow suit, under the guise that it will let them do more damage, etc.

[Ragmar]

On my thf I wear the Aurore Hat and Gloves (when i don't need my TH Gloves), the earring from ZM that gives enhanced dual wield effect and a swift belt. That's all the haste I wear. It's just not my emphasis to wear other pieces and then gear swap for weapon skills.

Aurore head/gloves are just terrible gear choices unless capping haste elsewhere. You are effectively gimping yourself 2% haste over turbin/dusk which are both as easy to obtain. It's not about having the best possible gear in the game or gtfo. It's about making reasonable gear selections based on what you currently have access to or can easily obtain. BTW CoP may have been level capped still when you completed it but it had already been gimped before you even started playing.

[Naturebeckles]

I ain't mad. Y'all can stop apologizing to me really, i appreciate the effort though.

One of life's greatest gifts is when an opponent bolsters your reputation at the sacrifice of their own.

I didn't make this post to troll them, or anyone. Ii I wanted to troll them, I'd do so in their respective posts. But think it better to ere on the side of "Maybe they just don't know" rather than assume they're idiots, and do my part to teach rather than scold.

I JUST got done reading the entire dogpile that's happening. And I am currently thinking of ways to better illustrate the benefits of Gear swaps in light of the um... "Discoveries" acquired in the wake of my original post... Amazingly even shouts and insults carry loads of information. I'll be back some other time to see what I can do.

I appreciate your wanting to teach rather than scold. I appreciate that immensely. When you come back with more info, I'll be reading it. I'll seriously weigh my options and maybe tweak some things.

[Naturebeckles]

Aurore head/gloves are just terrible gear choices unless capping haste elsewhere. You are effectively gimping yourself 2% haste over turbin/dusk which are both as easy to obtain. It's not about having the best possible gear in the game or gtfo. It's about making reasonable gear selections based on what you currently have access to or can easily obtain. BTW CoP may have been level capped still when you completed it but it had already been gimped before you even started playing.

I know that about CoP. But it was still hard compared to now. For the new players, it IS the hard way.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Last 4 pages have all been.. you don't need haste to enjoy the game..

I think your point has been made >_>

Whenever you guys get done comparing penis sizes maybe we can get back to discussing haste ..

[Fondle]

That is fine, as long as you understand that doing so is one of the worst things you could do to your job performance, and don't try to convince others to follow suit, under the guise that it will let them do more damage, etc.

My point is that FFXI is so easy that it doesn't matter. You can speak of rational and ideal choices as much as you'd like but my taru buddy spams c5/c6 all day wearing swimming trunks and a santa cap and I don't die. You can't explain that.

[Frost]

I have to ask you Naturebeckles, would you wear the full Hecatomb +1 set full time if it was given to you?

I can guarantee you'd be hitting as hard as you possibly can.

Would you do it?

[rog]

My point is that FFXI is so easy that it doesn't matter. You can speak of rational and ideal choices as much as you'd like but my taru buddy spams c5/c6 all day wearing swimming trunks and a santa cap and I don't die. You can't explain that.
I can explain it: gear means fairly little for whm. The difference between the best geared and a naked whm isn't really that huge. However that doesn't really apply for other jobs, in particular dd jobs. gear might allow a whm to perform maybe 70% better than a naked whm, which realistically will matter maybe 1-2% of the time, since it's pretty easy to keep people alive anyway. However, a dd can easily do 100 times more damage by using proper gear than they could naked with just a gimp weapon.

[Alkalinehoe]

Last 4 pages have all been.. you don't need haste to enjoy the game..

I think your point has been made >_>

Whenever you guys get done comparing penis sizes maybe we can get back to discussing haste ..
Haste makes you enjoy the game faster.

[Flunklesnarkin]

My point is that FFXI is so easy that it doesn't matter. You can speak of rational and ideal choices as much as you'd like but my taru buddy spams c5/c6 all day wearing swimming trunks and a santa cap and I don't die. You can't explain that.

Ok maybe you don't need haste because the game is easy enough..

Does it bother you that some people like to wear haste tho?

Seem's you are doing the same thing you are complaining about.. harassing people about gear choices lol

How many more pages will you continue to troll this thread.. i'm sure people don't need every other post to be

"YOU DONT NEED HASTE NOOBS!!!111oneoneone"

[Naturebeckles]

I have to ask you Naturebeckles, would you wear the full Hecatomb +1 set full time if it was given to you?

I can guarantee you'd be hitting as hard as you possibly can.

Would you do it?

No. Because even though I don't go out of my way to make a full haste/tp setup, I would never intentionally put all that slow + on me. EVER.

[rog]

No. Because even though I don't go out of my way to make a full haste/tp setup, I would never intentionally put all that slow + on me. EVER.
Not wearing haste is basically the same as wearing slow+.

[Frost]

My point is that FFXI is so easy that it doesn't matter. You can speak of rational and ideal choices as much as you'd like but my taru buddy spams c5/c6 all day wearing swimming trunks and a santa cap and I don't die. You can't explain that.

Was that... a Bill O'Reily reference?
And the trolling has reached... --a new low.

[Naturebeckles]

I can explain it: gear means fairly little for whm. The difference between the best geared and a naked whm isn't really that huge. However that doesn't really apply for other jobs, in particular dd jobs. gear might allow a whm to perform maybe 70% better than a naked whm, which realistically will matter maybe 1-2% of the time, since it's pretty easy to keep people alive anyway. However, a dd can easily do 100 times more damage by using proper gear than they could naked with just a gimp weapon.

I actually LOL'd here. So, cure potency, mp, and mnd doesn't mean very much to you for whm?

[Naturebeckles]

Not wearing haste is basically the same as wearing slow+.

Ok, now you just sound stupid and I no longer feel that your opinions have any merit whatsoever.

[Ragmar]

Not wearing haste is basically the same as wearing slow+.

^^ This x1000

[rog]

I actually LOL'd here. So, cure potency, mp, and mnd doesn't mean very much to you for whm?
When you have infinite mp from atmas, convert, etc? No, not really.

[Fondle]

Ok, now you just sound stupid and I no longer feel that your opinions have any merit whatsoever.

I was just about to say that.

[Darkwizardzin]

I actually LOL'd here. So, cure potency, mp, and mnd doesn't mean very much to you for whm?

Thats not what he said. >.>

all he ment was that playing the whm job isn't hard and the skill it takes to play it effectively conpared to playing a dd job effectively is small.

[Naturebeckles]

^^ This x1000

No, because just like haste lowers ones delay allowing for faster hitting, slow increased delay, causing slower hitting. Somebody who isn't wearing slow + gear is still hitting faster than somebody who wears a bunch of slow + gear. So, anybody who agrees with that statement really is an idiot. I will only reply to Frost and Fondle in this thread now. The rest of you can suck my santa suit.

[rog]

No, because just like haste lowers ones delay allowing for faster hitting, slow increased delay, causing slower hitting. Somebody who isn't wearing slow + gear is still hitting faster than somebody who wears a bunch of slow + gear. So, anybody who agrees with that statement really is an idiot. I will only reply to Frost and Fondle in this thread now. The rest of you can suck my santa suit.
Two people:

one has 20% haste, and 10% slow.

The other has 10% haste, and no slow.

Who attacks faster?

[HFX7686]

Two people:

one has 20% haste, and 10% slow.

The other has 10% haste, and no slow.

Who attacks faster?

Math is hard!

[Flunklesnarkin]

Don't feed the troll rog >_>

Just accept that some people can't be saved :o

Haste makes you faster.. slow makes you slower.. naturebeckles is just flat out trolling now or being a militant noob.

Keep feeding them and we will just have pages of how wearing haste makes you a bad person >_>

[Naturebeckles]

Two people:

one has 20% haste, and 10% slow.

The other has 10% haste, and no slow.

Who attacks faster?

That's not what was said before. What was said before was "Not wearing haste is basically the same as wearing slow+". You can't back peddle to erase your stupidity. Good-bye.

[rog]

That's not what was said before. What was said before was "Not wearing haste is basically the same as wearing slow+". You can't back peddle to erase your stupidity. Good-bye.
Yes it is. Sorry if i wasn't clear enough. I'll try to be a little more explicit about what i mean next time.

[Naturebeckles]

Good night thread! Going back under my bridge!

[Hoshi]

That's not what was said before. What was said before was "Not wearing haste is basically the same as wearing slow+". You can't back peddle to erase your stupidity. Good-bye.

Are you a troll? This is the second thread I've seen where you argue with the majority without using much logic.

[rog]

Don't feed the troll rog >_>
I can't help myself.

[rog]

Good night thread! Going back under my bridge!
Good night. I hope you can still get enough sleep and are well rested for class tomorrow!

[Cream_Soda]

Two people:

one has 20% haste, and 10% slow.

The other has 10% haste, and no slow.

Who attacks faster?
The person w/ less JA delay, duh!

[Darkwizardzin]

Are you a troll? This is the second thread I've seen where you argue with the majority without using much logic.She isn't a troll... she is just a player who doesn't like to gear change.. and think everyone who does is eliteist.

[Fondle]

She isn't a troll... she is just a player who doesn't like to gear change.. and think everyone who does is eliteist.

Jumping to conclusions much? She simply stated, repeatedly, that's how she likes to play and then gets bombarded by vitriolic statements from mathspewing trolls. If anyone is the troll here its OP.

[Flunklesnarkin]

She isn't a troll... she is just a player who doesn't like to gear change.. and think everyone who does is eliteist.

That seems like some flawed logic.... disapproving of the way people choose to gear and play the game... which is pretty much what they are complaining about..

I could see being upset if somebody was forcing them to change gear or w/e.. but I doubt this thread was directed at them specifically

[rog]

Jumping to conclusions much? She simply stated, repeatedly, that's how she likes to play and then gets bombarded by vitriolic statements from mathspewing trolls. If anyone is the troll here its OP.
If she accepted that she's a bad player because of how she plays, then we wouldn't have a problem with her.

[Cream_Soda]

Jumping to conclusions much? She simply stated, repeatedly, that's how she likes to play and then gets bombarded by vitriolic statements from mathspewing trolls. If anyone is the troll here its OP.
yea, because posting correct data about how the the game mechanics work on a forum for the game is definitely trolling.

[HFX7686]

Jumping to conclusions much? She simply stated, repeatedly, that's how she likes to play and then gets bombarded by vitriolic statements from mathspewing trolls. If anyone is the troll here its OP.

It was more like she insisted that her style of play (not swapping gear or using much haste) was just as good as gearing how the OP suggested. When presented with proof and logic as to why this is not true, she flipped a lid and went ballistic. That's when people started making fun of her.

[Flunklesnarkin]

Jumping to conclusions much? She simply stated, repeatedly, that's how she likes to play and then gets bombarded by vitriolic statements from mathspewing trolls. If anyone is the troll here its OP.

The repeatedly part is the reason its annoying..

They said their bit...

Nobody needs the same thing said 50 times......

We get it.. they don't like haste..

you don't need to swap gear to enjoy the game.. you don't need haste to have fun in abyssea w/e

They basically came in and made the thread about them

We got it.. they have a unique special play style..

The rest of us would like to discuss haste >_>

[Hoshi]

I actually asked because the other thread she was somewhat trolling in was the earthquake thread. It seemed like she wants to go against popular opinion in both threads I read that she posted in.

[Fondle]

So how bout them salvage drop rates.

[Cream_Soda]

If she accepted that she's a bad player because of how she plays, then we wouldn't have a problem with her.
Also this.

If you're bad, it really doesn't bother me. You can take the advice or not.

However, when you're bad, and defending that standpoint, then that's when you get threads like this one.


There's a diff between

A) Black belt is a lot of work and mnk isn't my main job, so even though brown belt isn't as good, I'm going to stick with this.

B) Hey guys, twilight belt is much better than black belt, you can cap haste if you change your gear around in other slots and get 2% DA zomg!!!

Neither of these players have black belt. However, I have no problem with player A, while player B is just a tard.

[Fondle]

You guys are so quick to call her gimp when she is simply defending her right to be gimp. Imposing all of your math and formulas and calculations on her is barbaric, bordering on psychological battery.

[rog]

You guys are so quick to call her gimp when she is simply defending her right to be gimp. Imposing all of your math and formulas and calculations on her is barbaric, bordering on psychological battery.
She's not defending her right to be gimp, she's arguing that she isn't gimp at all.

[Cream_Soda]

simply defending her right to be gimp.
No, she's saying she's not a bad player.

If she acknowledged so, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, lol.

[Flunklesnarkin]

You guys are so quick to call her gimp when she is simply defending her right to be gimp. Imposing all of your math and formulas and calculations on her is barbaric, bordering on psychological battery.

So you're the new thread troll..

Thread is about haste >_>

Not how not being able to handle opposing views on the internet can "traumatize" a person.

Nobody forced them to stay and post the same thing 50 times (reworded each time)

Are you gonna make this thread about you now.. or try to keep it about them?

[ffxkenshin]

Thank you to the OP for the haste information, I have always liked haste when TP-ing, as a thf, I "normally" never believe in +attack and +str anyway.

Let me first say that everyone DOES have their own play style, and gear swap or not, play good or play bad is all just choice of wanting to perfect their job or lazy their way.

With that said, I just can't hold myself about people who doesn't gear swap and make a ton of excuse about why they don't want to. I played THF for many years, and have always carried with me a DEX, AGI, Haste, Evasion, R.acc set (I also have acc set too, but isn't used much any more). DEX for SA only and WSing. AGI for TA, Haste obviously for TPing, Evasion for tanking. Like I said if you just want to play plain, say so, but don't say no gear swap is anywhere as good as gear swap. Maxing out the stat that will benefit what you doing at the moment most will make you a totally different THF. Way before abyssea, many have always say THF sucks for reaosn b/c of people that doesn't swap gear, SA with haste, TA with haste, ws with evasion gear, YUP, that will make the THF suck!

SE made so many different gears, and they are all "situational" (there are NOT that many FULL time piece of gear out there), so you should focus playing the game and understand what gear is best under what situation if you want to be good at thf

just as an example: first instinct of a THF/NIN in a situation when your shadow is down, and the mob has good accuracy over your natural evasion should be... PUT ON THOSE DAMN EVASION GEAR and start shadow casting, NOT wait.. wait..wait.. that whm is gonna cast cure on me anytime now.............I shouldn't blink (even back in the days where stpt is not available)
BUT will you WS with evasion gear, SURE, if the situation demands it, the mob HIT HARDS and you have no shadow already, or the mob have very good accuacy on you, so you don't want to lose your shadow too early. EVEN THEN, you can do a quick change in between the mob's attack and switch bk to evasion, if you are quick and experienced

but then again of course, it's just a game, if you don't want to play a good thf, continue with no gear swap, it's your choice

[Fondle]

So you're the new thread troll..

Thread is about haste >_>

Not how not being able to handle opposing views on the internet can "traumatize" a person.

Nobody forced them to stay and post the same thing 50 times (reworded each time)

Are you gonna make this thread about you now.. or try to keep it about them?

The ramifications of this thread go much beyond haste.

[Loir]

The ramifications of this thread go much beyond haste.
mountain out of mole hills, troll elsewhere and quit the derail

[Greatguardian]

The thread isn't about anything. The OP is an incredibly informative post meant to educate people. There really isn't anything else to discuss at all, and the first 2 pages give or take were just a couple people correcting minor typos in his charts and elaborating on some of the things he already stated.

18 pages of bickering is not a huge deal, but don't obscure the purpose of the OP. This thread wasn't made to discuss haste, or whether or not haste is good. Haste IS good. It is exactly as good as laid out in the OP. There is no debate. For players who want to educate themselves and be the best they can be, reading the OP will help tremendously.

For those who are too stubborn to care about Haste, no one cares how you gear. Your existence does not bother me in the slightest. You are free to play the game however you like. Just don't shit up a thread whose sole purpose is to provide empirically derived and confirmed information to the gaming populace. If you want to "Discuss" your "Opinion" on "Whether Haste is good or not", make a new thread with that purpose.

[Fondle]

If people didn't know the benefits of haste by now they clearly had personal/religious reasons as to abstaining from its use and you should respect that- instead of waving your superiority around like a banner of pompous elitism.

[Darkwizardzin]

Jumping to conclusions much? She simply stated, repeatedly, that's how she likes to play and then gets bombarded by vitriolic statements from mathspewing trolls. If anyone is the troll here its OP.

The thing is... alot of the great~best players in this game have a higher state of requirements to consider a person a "good" player.

Thats all in the end what i think happened here... beckles thinks that being a good player doesn't mean you have to do things like gear change while most other people do.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with that. She can think what she wants its her opinion not mine but alot of people in this thread do think there is something wrong with that.. that is the problem.

Those people think (and for good reason) that letting that person be identfyed as a good player isn't great for the community because then other players would copy her. They just want the community as a whole to play better and they think people like beckle hinder that.

[rog]

Which is fine. If they don't want to use it, then they don't have to. However they better not come and say they don't need haste to do well in ffxi, because that is false.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I figured the thread could be used to answer general haste questions..

like would a blitz ring be worth using over a str/dex/acc ring for your particular gear set..

or

how about that ace's helm / askar zuchetto :o


There are honestly so many haste options out there now.. its hard to figure out what an ideal tp set is..

like do you use zelus tiara for 8 % haste in the head slot.. or go with one of the AF3 helms with 6% haste and acc / str etc.. knowing you can still cap haste in other slots.

Could still discuss specific haste set ups

[Cream_Soda]

If people didn't know the benefits of haste by now they clearly had personal/religious reasons as to abstaining from its use a

Jumping to conclusions much?
Feel free to awnser your own q

[rog]

I figured the thread could be used to answer general haste questions..

like would a blitz ring be worth using over a str/dex/acc ring for your particular gear set..If haste is uncapped, blitz is always the best option for your second ring.


how about that ace's helm / askar zuchetto :oNo to askar. Ace's is situationally better than turban, depending on acc/haste.

[Darkwizardzin]

If anyone is the troll here its OP.

Also that isn't fair at all. if anything the OP was trying to help other people. All he has done is give good advice and information.

[Greatguardian]

I figured the thread could be used to answer general haste questions..

like would a blitz ring be worth using over a str/dex/acc ring for your particular gear set..

or

how about that ace's helm / askar zuchetto :o


There are honestly so many haste options out there now.. its hard to figure out what an ideal tp set is..

like do you use zelus tiara for 8 % haste in the head slot.. or go with one of the AF3 helms with 6% haste and acc / str etc.. knowing you can still cap haste in other slots.

Could still discuss specific haste set ups

If this thread was simply questions like those, I'm sure people would be more than happy to answer them. I can take those two if you want:

Ace's/Askar have pretty much no use any more, as the current state of the game has nullified the need for any significant amount of Accuracy gear. In the rare case where you may not be capped at 95% Accuracy on a given mob, changing food from Bison Steak to Marinara Pizza +1 is still significantly better than changing your gear to emphasize Accuracy. Walahra turban, or any higher Haste head will handily destroy Ace's/Askar.

Zelus Tiara vs AF3 helm with 6% Haste and other stats, assuming capped haste in all slots either way: This is a more complicated question that I cannot answer with certainty without being told what job we're talking about, inside/outside Abyssea, and what two full gear sets you're working with. As a general rule, I can say that you should look at what Haste gear you can replace when you go from AF3+2 to Zelus Tiara. If you gain more powerful stats in those now-free slots than you had on your AF3+2 head, then Zelus Tiara should have the advantage. If the stats you gain by freeing up haste slots are less than what you had on your AF3+2, you are probably better off with your AF3+2.

This is assuming that you were capped on gear haste with both sets.

Edit: @Rog, what NM and job combination (capable of using Ace's) may still have low enough Acc with Pizza+1 for Ace's to overtake Turban? Serious question, I didn't think there were many still out there.

[Flunklesnarkin]

If haste is uncapped, blitz is always the best option for your second ring.

No to askar. Ace's is situationally better than turban, depending on acc/haste.

I know that lol.. just saying that would be an example..

but there are also so many ways to cap haste now.. could be some discussion over which haste pieces to use to cap

can be troublesome to decide which pieces to use to cap haste.. when also trying to figure out what to gear for after its capped.. store tp / double atk / subtle blow etc.

so troublesome i haven't bothered yet.. i probably should lol

[Frost]

No. Because even though I don't go out of my way to make a full haste/tp setup, I would never intentionally put all that slow + on me. EVER.

Ok, progress.
The thing is, it's obviously not ALL about haste. Since the post was first posted until this very second, I stated at the bottom:
Please take note however that other stats are extremely important too, and Haste just might make you "miss faster"...

The thing is this, unfortunately, this game is like any other dice and paper game ok? It's about numbers. You roll a 20 sided die and the numbers you throw up are your effectiveness in a group.

I state the following as an illustration, and not an insult in any way shape or form. You are rolling with a six sided dice, at one third the frequency of my thief, which happens to be rolling a solid twenty sided dice where 19/20 of the facets have "20" on them and I get to roll it three times as often.

What do I mean by that?

Roughly, comparing the gear you have versus mine:
Delay wise: I attack at an estimated 81% more times than you,
Frequency wise I'm hitting 24% more frequently than you.
Accuracy wise, versus a VT/IT mob, you'd parse in the high 60's low 70's, to my 92%+

That all said, I hit in total:
207 times in the time it takes you to hit 72 hits.

EVEN IF... I did not swap ANY gear, and I HAPPEN to weaponskill at 1/2 the potency of you, I would STILL out damage you.

Again, not picking on you.

Meanwhile:
I can cast either of my shadows 50% more frequently than you, and I can evade 22% better than you.

Now
That's not even the best case scenario.

If a monster is casting on me, I can swap into a set that mitigates 25% of all magical damage. IN terms of numbers, if I get a Blizaga IV to the face for 1200, it drops it down to to only 900 (Survivable).

When I cast a spell I put on enough evasion to drop the monsters effective accuracy to 20%, +/- 10% depending on the monster's level; ensuring I get the spell off. Mind you I do that while shaving an entire 25% of the actual cast time off the spell.

When I so wish, I can weaponskill in gear that if I were just to change 2 pieces and 2 pieces only I can guarantee a minimum of 15% damage to my weaponskill. if I swap the rest I can add 300% more Str than you're adding, 200% more Dex than you're adding, and for shits and giggles, a splash of Chr, Acc, Att, Triple attack, etc...

Using even basic gear-swaps maximizes your output when called for.

By my roughest of roughest of rough math, I could say I out-damage you on the order of 5:1, all the while keeping myself safe, my party safe, and making sure the mob dies quickly.

I am not an elitist. Anyone who knows me can attest to that. But people should expect better of themselves. Wouldn't you like to up your effectiveness 500% with minimal effort? Or maybe even just 100%? Wouldn't you be pissed if someone you worked with only did 20% of what you did and you get paid the same?

[Ragmar]

If people didn't know the benefits of haste by now they clearly had personal/religious reasons as to abstaining from its use and you should respect that- instead of waving your superiority around like a banner of pompous elitism.

Because someone has personal/religious reasons for abstaining from using haste does not give them or you the right to come into a thread designed to educate people on the benefits of using a propper haste build and muddle it up with drama and stupidity. Go be emo elsewhere.

[Fondle]

mfw i cant hotlink mfw pics

[Yuber]

Frost, man I just wanted to say you're awesome for going through all the trouble to post that and still read all this thread, although it has been entertaining to read through at some points, I loved the "We'll jump off that cliff faster than you because we have haste" comment, you've basically laid out a great explanation of haste that can't really be discussed. Any chances you could crunch some numbers for ATK or Double Attack? Someone in my LS said that adding DA was basically the same for your DPS as adding haste, any idea if that's true?

[Belkin]

You don't have to be elitist to use haste. If you truly believe you are better off not using haste to TP in normal situations, there is no salvation for you.

[Alkalinehoe]

Frost, man I just wanted to say you're awesome for going through all the trouble to post that and still read all this thread, although it has been entertaining to read through at some points, I loved the "We'll jump off that cliff faster than you because we have haste" comment, you've basically laid out a great explanation of haste that can't really be discussed. Any chances you could crunch some numbers for ATK or Double Attack? Someone in my LS said that adding DA was basically the same for your DPS as adding haste, any idea if that's true?

It's not. The more DA you add the less return you get out of it (it's really the opposite of haste).

[Frost]

Frost, man I just wanted to say you're awesome for going through all the trouble to post that and still read all this thread, although it has been entertaining to read through at some points, I loved the "We'll jump off that cliff faster than you because we have haste" comment, you've basically laid out a great explanation of haste that can't really be discussed. Any chances you could crunch some numbers for ATK or Double Attack? Someone in my LS said that adding DA was basically the same for your DPS as adding haste, any idea if that's true?

Double attack works differently. For every percent of DA you add you're taking away form the pool you can add to.... And it only adds a static number.

For instance: If you attack 100 times and 10 of those hits are double attacks, that means you attack 110 times roughly.

If you add 10% more double attack to that, you are adding 10% double attack to 90% of the hits... so 9% DA is added bringing your total attacks out of 100 to 119, this is called "Diminishing returns". (Someone please correct me if I got that wrong)

Where as say, you had 10% haste and added 10% more... Look at the chart on page one... (lol...)

20% DA = 19% more attacks
20% Haste = 25% more attacks.

Make sense?

[Yuber]

Gotcha, that makes perfect sense actually, thanks for the responses!

[Kirana]

Double attack works differently. For every percent of DA you add you're taking away form the pool you can add to.... And it only adds a static number.

For instance: If you attack 100 times and 10 of those hits are double attacks, that means you attack 110 times roughly.

If you add 10% more double attack to that, you are adding 10% double attack to 90% of the hits... so 9% DA is added bringing your total attacks out of 100 to 119, this is called "Diminishing returns". (Someone please correct me if I got that wrong)

Where as say, you had 10% haste and added 10% more... Look at the chart on page one... (lol...)

20% DA = 19% more attacks
20% Haste = 25% more attacks.

Make sense?

you've got the diminishing returns thing a bit wrong. if you have 10% DA and add 10% more, you will come out with 120 attacks on average (per 100 swings). The way diminishing returns works is the effective PERCENTAGE increase of DPS from stacking additional DA gets lower as your DA gets higher. 0% DA to 10% DA would be a 10% increase in DPS. 10% DA (110 swings average) to 20% DA (120 swings average) is a (10/110) ~9% increase.

Haste works differently. It has exponentially increasing returns. As haste% approaches 100%, DPS approaches infinity. The more haste you have, the higher the +percentage DPS of adding more.

[RaenRyong]

http://www.ffxiah.com/screenshots/39303 - DA vs Haste. y-axis is relative increase per point added; it's not suggesting that DA decreases your damage which is a common misconception.

Also for the sake of nipping a semantics argument in the bud, Haste isn't technically an exponential return, instead a f(haste) = 100x/(100 - (y + x)) form, where x is haste added and y previous haste. It approaches infinity as (y + x) approaches 100 as the function becomes undefined although the trend is similar to an exponential one in the given domain of x and y ((x+y) <= 80 for the sake of game mechanics).

[Kjara]

very nice guide. could you add the delay- difference between haste gear and dual wield+ gear too?

[Alkalinehoe]

very nice guide. could you add the delay- difference between haste gear and dual wield+ gear too?
Yes, total delay reduction is 80% can be achieved from both Dual Wield and haste sources. I forgot the formula but they are calculated independently with haste being considered first, then DW.

[RaenRyong]

Dual Wield works exactly the same as Haste (and 1% DW will reduce delay as an absolute value by the same amount as 1% Haste); there are however two complications:

1. Haste does not lower tp/hit. Dual Wield does. As a general rule, Dual Wield leaves WS frequency roughly the same if not slightly better whereas Haste increases it in the same vein as it increases DoT.
2. While 0=>1% Haste and DW are identical, you often have more than one of the other. 40=>41% Haste is a greater increase than 15=>16% DW for instance even ignoring WS frequency differences.
3. There is an overall delay reduction cap of 80%. You do not add your DW and Haste together when looking for this number. It's multiplicative, ie:

(1 - Haste/100) * (1 - DualWield/100) = 0.2 is your maximum reduction. Plug in your numbers for one or the other and see what the other one comes out as.

What does this mean in terms of actual gearing? Because Haste increases WS frequency greatly and DW leaves it roughly unchanged, it is almost always in your interests to use Haste over Dual Wield unless you are otherwise capped (eg: Haste belt vs Nusku's Sash).

And on a final advanced note, if you are a Dancer or a Ninja (or a dualwielding job under extreme haste buff situations) it can actually be disadvantageous to be wearing any Dual Wield gear at all if you are receiving heavy haste buffs. Plug in a high Haste value to the equation above and see how much Dual Wield caps you: anything beyond that point is potentially hurting your performance, relatively or absolutely.

[Kjara]

to make a clear example, do you think Charis Casaque's "Enhances Dual Wield" is better or worse than Rapparee Harness's Haste? (+4 or +5, I forgot.) Everyone tells me Charis Casaque's DW is superior but I couldn't test yet (missing 3 seals ; ; )

[RaenRyong]

According to wiki, Charis Casaque +1 is 5% DW and Rapparee is 4% Haste. I'm going to make the assumption that you have Suppanomimi and Charis Necklace (if you lack the necklace don't worry, it won't change the outcome).

Increase in damage from adding x% Haste/DW is 100x/(100 - (x + y)). Looking at Dual Wield, x in this case is 5 and y is 38 (30% trait, 5% suppa, 3% necklace). Your increase in damage is therefore

(100 * 5) / (100 - (5 + 38)) = 500/57 = 8.77% - this is largely a DoT increase as, as we discussed before, WS frequency remains ~same.

I haven't looked at much DNC specific gear but I am going to assume you can cap Haste fairly easily when using a Rapparee Harness, so I'm going to use the perhaps artificial example where this brings you from 21=>25% Haste and also going to include your 10% Haste Samba. Using same formula as above,

(100 * 4) / (100 - (4 + 31)) = 400/65 = 6.15% increase in both DoT AND WS frequency. In an externally unbuffed situation (more buffs making Rapparee considerably better), Charis provides ~2% more DoT but ~4-6% less TP gain. Typically I would expect as a DNC you'd prefer the latter and especially if you are being externally buffed (which will make the DoT difference shrink and even make Rapparee win at higher haste levels, while making the TP gain difference grow in Rapparee's favour).

Tl;dr version is unless you are not getting the full 4% benefit from Rapparee or otherwise capped, use Rapparee over Charis +1. However, you should probably use Charis +2 over Rapparee (unless the difference in TP gain is worth giving up a significant DoT advantage, which it may be in some situations) unless you are receiving Haste buffs to the point Dual Wield starts to become useless/a hindrance (in accordance with the overall delay reduction cap addressed above).

[Frost]

to make a clear example, do you think Charis Casaque's "Enhances Dual Wield" is better or worse than Rapparee Harness's Haste? (+4 or +5, I forgot.) Everyone tells me Charis Casaque's DW is superior but I couldn't test yet (missing 3 seals ; ; )

First, Thanks RaenRyong!

I PERSONALLY... I would use the Charis Casque +2(And I DO use it) The bonus supposedly is 10% DW, BUT, over all it does have really good stats, AND I think you can cap haste W/out Raparee, so it's a moot point anyways. (Charis Tiara +2(6), Charis Toe Shoes +2(4), Charis Tights +2(5), Twilight Belt(7), Ocelot Gloves(3) = ~25% (yes I know it's not 26% Dusk +1 is!))

So my Dnc is 25% haste, DW IV, 18% DW, Haste Samba 15%

I AM talking about the +2 here, so that's kinda cheating, and in doing so one must consider the Bonuses added to sambas.

[Gunit]

Naturebeckles is doing it right, swaping gear gets you killed.
so V.helm or af3 head for fudo sam?
one is good for fudo but other is good for the haste I can't choice one.
Thought this would be a good place to ask.

[Kjara]

thanks a lot for the answers^^

[Kuishen]

Naturebeckles is doing it right, swaping gear gets you killed.
so V.helm or af3 head for fudo sam?
one is good for fudo but other is good for the haste I can't choice one.
Thought this would be a good place to ask.

Just HAD to muck up this page didn't you?

[Frost]

Just HAD to muck up this page didn't you?

Calm down it's just another product of the 4chan generation. They're harmless lol. It's trolling in good fun. The only drawback is they are rarely if ever as amusing as they think they are.

[Gunit]

Calm down it's just another product of the 4chan generation. They're harmless lol. It's trolling in good fun. The only drawback is they are rarely if ever as amusing as they think they are.

I don't understand what you mean? I am just looking for some help with gear.

[Frost]

I don't understand what you mean? I am just looking for some help with gear.

You're precious. :)

[Gunit]

/sigh guess I have to wait until Naturebeckles is around to help me.

[Ragmar]

If swapping gear gets you killed your mages are doing it wrong. If you dont macro gear swap TP/WS/Haste/Eva you're doing it wrong. The fact that even one person posted here who doesn't accept this is whats wrong with the community today. Not having the best gear in the game does not make you a bad player. Not using the best gear available to you and not understanding some of the most widely accepted and understood game mechanics does though.

[Tezz]

Question: Why do you NOT swap gear or entertain the idea of adjusting yourself to new ideas? Why would you not seek optimization to be better at what you do (not to be the best, but better for yourself)?
"Be, all that you can be!"(sorry couldn't resist)

Before, it was that blinking gets you killed. Now that you understand <stal>, <stpt> you can see how a competent player would adapt. If this is not the case, then you must accept that you are around unprogressive players. In this case you are being held back by others and if you accept that, then it is fine.
But, if you were outside the typical "Crowd" who behaves this way, it would be in your favor to adapt your macros for the competent.
(this is not meant to convey that your crowd is "gimp")

Now this begs to question. Would you adapt in a different situation as presented? If not, why?
It's true you could likely do everything in the game without any haste gear, but that is not what we're talking about. It's about bettering yourself to optimize gameplay that essentially speeds the process up for everyone around you. Why would you deny this?

The ONLY argument i can see out of this is that you pay to play your own way (fine, bla bla bla) and that you're just having Fun. I can understand this to an extent, but let's be honest. Dynamis or ANY event in FF11 gets OLD relatively fast. Then everyone just wants to finish and get it over with ASAP. This is where optimizing gameplay becomes the benefit for everyone.

This again leads to another question. Do you (and people around you) get tired of content or are you happy going at a slower pace than others' around you?

If you answered "Yes", then this is fine and dandy for everyone who is with you. Oh NO!, You've been doing content for so long that your friends/members are leaving the shell. Well that sux, at least you had a good journey while it lasted. Now you need to find/recruit more members of the same mindset(this is where you will likely run into members joining/quitting faster than normal). If you succeed over this, even better.

In closing, sure it's your decision to play and find like-minded people that others' may call "gimp", but should you require the attention/assistance of us who do not agree, we only ask that you adapt with us in the event that we might team-up and play together.
Please do not consider players seeking to better themselves "elite" just because they want to better themselves.

[Gunit]

got 4 people?

[Xilk]

Thanx for the info Frost. Its nice to have a simple table that actually shows the improvements at different intervals.

To all the Elitists out there (not including Frost who has quite shown he is not), If you want to "improve" the player base. Don't be a jerk. You are damaging your own cause. You whine and whine about how sucky some players are, then when there is someone willing to listen for a bit, you completely turn them off w/ personal attacks and insults. This says you don't really want other players to improve. What you really want is for them to stay poorer so that you can have an excuse to pretend you are better than they are. its pretty sad.. as in pathetic. If I picked some info about you whether real or made up to insult you up and down, you wouldn't want to listen to a word I said either. It wouldn't matter if any of it was true or not.

There are still many players who do not understand how haste works, or at least they will not know all the implications. Before the level cap increase, filling out haste gear for your job was more challenging. thats not an excuse for the trolling in this thread... She could have been wiser about it too, but she was too self-conscious about being called 'bad' or and idiot.

[ericnuke]

Love the in-depth telling of haste with the chart and all. Now, can you make one for all the SAMs that think they are awesome, but don't WS in same stp gear as they tp in?

[Gunit]

Love the in-depth telling of haste with the chart and all. Now, can you make one for all the SAMs that think they are awesome, but don't WS in same stp gear as they tp in?
are saying sam should WS AND TP in the SAME amount of STP gear?

Cause you would be mistaken.

[Zeroe]

Good Info man

[NrvnqsrKhaos]

This is hella useful. Or rather, it will be, when I hit max level.

Is haste gear favorable for EXPing, as well as end-game content? I'm still mid 40s- early 50s on the jobs I want to level (THF and NIN, respectively), and I want to know what I should be looking for until I do finally get up there with the big kids.

[SNK]

But then I will die because the mob is crit hitting me or using a TP move at the same time that I'm changing gear for a weapon skill, causing my mage to not be able to cure me. Then I die and lose all my tp anyway.

I still win.

If you're not willing to die for your damage then go level fucking bard. ~Rykoshet

[Naturebeckles]

Ok, progress.
The thing is, it's obviously not ALL about haste. Since the post was first posted until this very second, I stated at the bottom:

The thing is this, unfortunately, this game is like any other dice and paper game ok? It's about numbers. You roll a 20 sided die and the numbers you throw up are your effectiveness in a group.

I state the following as an illustration, and not an insult in any way shape or form. You are rolling with a six sided dice, at one third the frequency of my thief, which happens to be rolling a solid twenty sided dice where 19/20 of the facets have "20" on them and I get to roll it three times as often.

What do I mean by that?

Roughly, comparing the gear you have versus mine:
Delay wise: I attack at an estimated 81% more times than you,
Frequency wise I'm hitting 24% more frequently than you.
Accuracy wise, versus a VT/IT mob, you'd parse in the high 60's low 70's, to my 92%+

That all said, I hit in total:
207 times in the time it takes you to hit 72 hits.

EVEN IF... I did not swap ANY gear, and I HAPPEN to weaponskill at 1/2 the potency of you, I would STILL out damage you.

Again, not picking on you.

Meanwhile:
I can cast either of my shadows 50% more frequently than you, and I can evade 22% better than you.

Now
That's not even the best case scenario.

If a monster is casting on me, I can swap into a set that mitigates 25% of all magical damage. IN terms of numbers, if I get a Blizaga IV to the face for 1200, it drops it down to to only 900 (Survivable).

When I cast a spell I put on enough evasion to drop the monsters effective accuracy to 20%, +/- 10% depending on the monster's level; ensuring I get the spell off. Mind you I do that while shaving an entire 25% of the actual cast time off the spell.

When I so wish, I can weaponskill in gear that if I were just to change 2 pieces and 2 pieces only I can guarantee a minimum of 15% damage to my weaponskill. if I swap the rest I can add 300% more Str than you're adding, 200% more Dex than you're adding, and for shits and giggles, a splash of Chr, Acc, Att, Triple attack, etc...

Using even basic gear-swaps maximizes your output when called for.

By my roughest of roughest of rough math, I could say I out-damage you on the order of 5:1, all the while keeping myself safe, my party safe, and making sure the mob dies quickly.

I am not an elitist. Anyone who knows me can attest to that. But people should expect better of themselves. Wouldn't you like to up your effectiveness 500% with minimal effort? Or maybe even just 100%? Wouldn't you be pissed if someone you worked with only did 20% of what you did and you get paid the same?

I'm not against bettering myself at all. But I don't really see anything wrong with how I play either. I know you're not picking on me and you're just trying to inform me, so I'm cool with you. I will consider the information seriously, but I"m done clogging up your thread fighting with everybody else.

[Xilk]

hmmm
anyone got a haste VS DW graph for cap? would be a good quick reference tool.

Also, what would be the minimum setups for capping delay reduction.

Looks like brd/whm + nin or dnc would probably work.

[Naturebeckles]

Thanx for the info Frost. Its nice to have a simple table that actually shows the improvements at different intervals.

To all the Elitists out there (not including Frost who has quite shown he is not), If you want to "improve" the player base. Don't be a jerk. You are damaging your own cause. You whine and whine about how sucky some players are, then when there is someone willing to listen for a bit, you completely turn them off w/ personal attacks and insults. This says you don't really want other players to improve. What you really want is for them to stay poorer so that you can have an excuse to pretend you are better than they are. its pretty sad.. as in pathetic. If I picked some info about you whether real or made up to insult you up and down, you wouldn't want to listen to a word I said either. It wouldn't matter if any of it was true or not.

There are still many players who do not understand how haste works, or at least they will not know all the implications. Before the level cap increase, filling out haste gear for your job was more challenging. thats not an excuse for the trolling in this thread... She could have been wiser about it too, but she was too self-conscious about being called 'bad' or and idiot.

Thank you Xilk.

[Tamoa]

I swear I have facepalmed at least once for every page in this tread, starting from around page 3. It's been a while since I've seen so much ignorance displayed in one single forum thread.

Let me just assure all the guys here that not all female FFXI players are the same.

My thanks to the OP for an informative post.

[Vivik]

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

To all of you who are so ignorant as to think Naturebeckles did not bring this hate on herself. This is her first post, in case you forgot. Who is the one starting s*it again?

To the OP, thank you for posting this informative guide for all of our uninformed and newbies to the game. It's too bad is gets crapped up by trolls.

[Dooom]

The whole irony of this thing is that Beckles like just as much an "elitist" as anyone else.


I'm not against bettering myself at all. But I don't really see anything wrong with how I play either.

The thread has shown numerous times why your style of gearing is less efficient for damage and survivability than those of others, hence showing that you are going wrong with your choices. To ignore those choices and disregard them is to actually be against bettering yourself.

A lot of this "oh I don't need haste" talk must only come from anti-conformist mindsets that most people grow out of by their late teens. FFXI is based on numbers and math. It is not about believing in the heart of cards. Not knowing the math is fine; being shown it and rejecting it outright is not. It's quite sad to see such juvenile behavior in a supposedly grown woman.