Haste and You... A guide to the misinformed.

[Kuishen]

@ Vivik and Dooom: Thank god you two pointed these things out for me. Had I done so, it would have been with a lot of profanity and would have gotten me banned. My self-control only goes so far. :\

[Ragmar]

I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

Exactly this was the first post by Nature and was a clear attack on the OP as well as the validity of the benefits of haste.

[Vivik]

@ Vivik and Dooom: Thank god you two pointed these things out for me. Had I done so, it would have been with a lot of profanity and would have gotten me banned. My self-control only goes so far. :\

Self control I have plenty of. Three kids teach you that in a hurry. What I still cant wrap my head around is why she started posting in this thread in the first place. People are talking about personal attacks in this thread yet all I see are people simply being informative of your available options in the game. Nature started attacking the OP by claiming he is a haste whore for creating this thread. When in actuality I think she is an attention whore for posting in this thread. She bring absolutely nothing to the conversation at all. Hence why I think she is just trolling. Where is her husband who she claims is a good player in all of this? I'll tell ya, hiding under the freaking table next to her. I would not post either.

P.S. He's obligated to tell you you're awesome, he's your husband...

[RaenRyong]

You'll never find me making insults against anyone who asks for help and that applies to most people here. Only time I'll make "attacks" is when someone is posting just to hinder things, like Beckles whose entire point of posting was to hinder discussion/spread of information.

If her approach was "I haven't been swapping gear or using much Haste up to this point - is it really as good as people say it is?" etc then the outcome of this thread would've been much different.

[Vivik]

If there's no basis for construction discussion, then you should just shut up because player bashing just serves to boost your own pathetic game self-esteem.

Maybe you should take your own advice from another thread.

[Zaknafein]

So many good LoLz in this thread! Also picked up nugget about DW. Good stuff. Back to civilizations in an attempt to ease the FF withdrawals. PS: Devs if you take anything away from this thread plz let it be that what ever new content you have planned for 95-99 or end game afterwards plz plz plz let it be outside abyssea. Many players are in serious need of a reality check. Back to basics SE. Back to basics :)

[Maquis]

Haste Samba is 10% max at merits. Each merit gives it 1% extra to the already 5% it gives.

Additionally, DW does nothing for Utsu recast, never forget that if macro-ing in max haste for recast.

[Kagato]

Haste is for losers and idiots. Pile on an important stat, like Charisma.

EVERYONE likes Charismatic people! The more CHR you have, the more parties you'll get invited to for exp and events! No one will care what your gear or haste is because everyone will look at you and say "wow. That is one charismatic guy!"

CHR is the way to the future, my friends.

[Kjara]

I guess monsters have a different taste in fashion than me, because there's no way I can find a man dressed like a sheep "charming" <.<

[Vivik]

Haste is for losers and idiots. Pile on an important stat, like Charisma.

EVERYONE likes Charismatic people! The more CHR you have, the more parties you'll get invited to for exp and events! No one will care what your gear or haste is because everyone will look at you and say "wow. That is one charismatic guy!"

CHR is the way to the future, my friends.

I know a few people on my server that think exactly that. These are also the same people that still have to buy maps and need their hand held for everything... Yeah, they're out there...

[Sinthetic]

I'm a haste Junkie <<<<

[Kagato]

I'm a haste Junkie <<<<


NO! *kicks shin with steel-toed boot*

You pack on that CHR right the hell now!

[Sinthetic]

NO! *kicks shin with steel-toed boot*

You pack on that CHR right the hell now!


heheheeh i got my Zelus Tiara 4 hours before they shutdown the servers o.O

[Dfoley]

Nice initial post but it leaves a lot out.

1) Those charts/tables for haste assume no dual wield/martial arts which is nice for comparison, but really underestimates the majority of the population. AKA a thf/nin isnt really going from 24 to 25%, they are going from 44 to 45 (made up for example)

2) 80% haste isnt a 400% increase in attack rounds, at 240 dly you have 15 /min, with 80% haste you have 75. Thats a 500% increase. You had the right calculation when you translated it to hits.

The TLDNR version:
Haste at smaller values is pretty crap and you might not notice 22 to 23 % haste. Add on bard songs, whm, and dualwield/martial arts and going from 79 to 80% haste is huge.

[Rambus]

keep this in mind when you say you have a 400% or 500% ( i'm a bit lost in why the comment but i want to point this fact out to make sure it should be one or the other)

when you say 100% increase it means your total is oringal amount times 2 for outcome , like wise 400% means orginal vaule times 5.

[Naturebeckles]

Maybe you should take your own advice from another thread.

Oh yeah? Tell me where I actually bashed another player's game play on here.

Oh wait, don't. Because I'm tired of talking to people who say I'm a bad player for not playing the way they do. If you're one of those people who is about to open your mouth and do that, then don't bother talking to me.

[Naturebeckles]

You'll never find me making insults against anyone who asks for help and that applies to most people here. Only time I'll make "attacks" is when someone is posting just to hinder things, like Beckles whose entire point of posting was to hinder discussion/spread of information.

If her approach was "I haven't been swapping gear or using much Haste up to this point - is it really as good as people say it is?" etc then the outcome of this thread would've been much different.

I highly doubt that. Maybe YOU would have reacted differently. But I think a lot of the people I was talking to last night would have been the same jerkfaces regardless.

[Vivik]

Oh yeah? Tell me where I actually bashed another player's game play on here.

Oh wait, don't. Because I'm tired of talking to people who say I'm a bad player for not playing the way they do. If you're one of those people who is about to open your mouth and do that, then don't bother talking to me.

/sigh... Lets see how many times I can repost this..


I can't believe one of you posted a guide which spawned this entire pointless discussion about the specifics over haste. Maybe I'll just stick to not being a haste whore....

Your first response of the thread, directly insulting someones play style for using haste....

Need I say more?

[Tamoa]

It's mathematically proven that capping gear haste will make you a better DD as it will make you deal more damage in the same amount of time as someone with little to no gear haste. How Naturebeckles can even argue with that, is beyond me.

Not using haste gear and not gearswap makes you an inferior DD. In fact it makes you an inferior player as far as performance and efficiency goes, whether you are on a DD job or on a mage job.

The "I don't gear swap because then I blink and mages won't be able to cure me" excuse is pathetic.

[Naturebeckles]

/sigh... Lets see how many times I can repost this..



Your first response of the thread, directly insulting someones play style for using haste....

Need I say more?

Uh no no no no no. I was NOT insulting ANYBODY for using haste. I saw the whole discussion about the all the specifics of the math of how haste works as kind of pointless. I'm not saying Frost's guide was pointless. But there were pages of people agreeing/disagreeing about how that math worked. I never said haste was bad or criticized anyone for using haste gear. Not once will you see me say any of that. It's taking everything I have right now to not insult you over your reading skills.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I wish there was a way to block a player.. naturebeckles brings absolutely nothing to the discussion of haste.

Are these forums even moderated?

[Tamoa]

Naturebeckles, why does it even bother you that people were discussing exactly how the haste maths works? Why did you even start reading this thread? Seeing as you don't believe in haste anyway?

You brought this on yourself by posting in this thread when you had nothing to contribute to the ongoing discussion, all you did was say "well this is pointless duh!"

[Vivik]

Uh no no no no no. I was NOT insulting ANYBODY for using haste. I saw the whole discussion about the all the specifics of the math of how haste works as kind of pointless. I'm not saying Frost's guide was pointless. But there were pages of people agreeing/disagreeing about how that math worked. I never said haste was bad or criticized anyone for using haste gear. Not once will you see me say any of that. It's taking everything I have right now to not insult you over your reading skills.

But you did just insult me. Just like you insulted all of the "haste whores" out there in you initial post. It's fine keep it coming, the more you speak the dumber you sound.

[Naturebeckles]

But you did just insult me. Just like you insulted all of the "haste whores" out there in you initial post. It's fine keep it coming, the more you speak the dumber you sound.


Whatever Vivik. You're just another troll's troll.

[cidbahamut]

No, he's just correct.

[HFX7686]

I'm going to go with Vivik being correct as well.

[Tamoa]

No, he's just correct.

This. 100% this.

[Rambus]

Uh no no no no no. I was NOT insulting ANYBODY for using haste. I saw the whole discussion about the all the specifics of the math of how haste works as kind of pointless. I'm not saying Frost's guide was pointless. But there were pages of people agreeing/disagreeing about how that math worked. I never said haste was bad or criticized anyone for using haste gear. Not once will you see me say any of that. It's taking everything I have right now to not insult you over your reading skills.

I am wondering, are you a bit new with talking to people on fourm? there are people here that have spliced how the game works and back track to give exact fomrulas, so there are some math nerds here like my self that are very picky how mcuh statments are worded to be correct to the letter ( or should i say to the decimal?)

like how i posted this comment:

keep this in mind when you say you have a 400% or 500% ( i'm a bit lost in why the comment but i want to point this fact out to make sure it should be one or the other)

when you say 100% increase it means your total is oringal amount times 2 for outcome , like wise 400% means orginal vaule times 5.

[Vivik]

Whatever Vivik. You're just another troll's troll.

It's trolling to point out where you are wrong? You overreacted and acted like an ass in your first post and expected to not take any crap for it. You've been called out on your hypocritical behavior and the best thing you can come up with is "you're a troll"? Please...

[Naturebeckles]

I am wondering, are you a bit new with talking to people on fourm? there are people here that have spliced how the game works and back track to give exact fomrulas, so there are some math nerds here like my self that are very picky how mcuh statments are worded to be correct to the letter ( or should i say to the decimal?)

like how i posted this comment:

Well, yes I am actually. I have no problem whatsoever with the Math. I'm not going to sit here and actually argue Math or game mechanics. I know there are people like you and Frost who are way smarter than me with that stuff.

But, as I will always maintain - gear choice is mainly done over the opinion each person has about what gear is best for them based on how they play, what they're goals are, whether they care about outperforming other players or not, and etc. Even their race makes a different. An Elvaan BLM will need to stack more INT than other races because their natural base INT is lower than other races. That's just an example. Thought I do appreciate Frost's original post and subsequent replies, especially to me... being from a teaching standpoint and not just telling me I'm a "bad player" for not gear swapping and having a heavy haste/tp setup, I may not change the way I play. Simply because I've never really cared about other players outperforming me. At the end of the day, the mobs still die, battles and missions are still won, and even if I'm just an "average" player, I'm ok with that. Maybe getting offended easily over being called a "bad player" was my downfall last night. However, i'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who would take offense to being called a bad player as being a fact based solely on gear choices.

[cidbahamut]

Your thin skin doesn't make the other posters in this thread any less correct, it just makes you look like a jerk.

[Rambus]

Well, yes I am actually. I have no problem whatsoever with the Math. I'm not going to sit here and actually argue Math or game mechanics. I know there are people like you and Frost who are way smarter than me with that stuff.

But, as I will always maintain - gear choice is mainly done over the opinion each person has about what gear is best for them based on how they play, what they're goals are, whether they care about outperforming other players or not, and etc. Even their race makes a different. An Elvaan BLM will need to stack more INT than other races because their natural base INT is lower than other races. That's just an example. Thought I do appreciate Frost's original post and subsequent replies, especially to me... being from a teaching standpoint and not just telling me I'm a "bad player" for not gear swapping and having a heavy haste/tp setup, I may not change the way I play. Simply because I've never really cared about other players outperforming me. At the end of the day, the mobs still die, battles and missions are still won, and even if I'm just an "average" player, I'm ok with that. Maybe getting offended easily over being called a "bad player" was my downfall last night. However, i'm sure I'm not the only person in the world who would take offense to being called a bad player as being a fact based solely on gear choices.

meny forum people are very picky and try to stress macros, if you look at the SCH board how I posted my SCH macros you know how crazy some of us can be to be perfectionist.

sometimes it can make or brake you, in lowamn situations the results of macroing like that become more apperent.

to me having a TP and WS macros these days are somewhat basic and requred, but thats just how i view things ( again take a look what i posted on my SCH macros, so you get the idea how much work i put into performace). ( people can have setups for different WS like how war use to have a ws set for raging rush because its crt and there was other times kings justace was better so they set up some different ws gear for that, that is something I do not expect, but nice to have, shows more pride in the job.) Then you have people that go even further that have PDT, MDT and other more situational gear.

telling people how to play never goes well, you feel people are telling you that your gimp for not using macros and people feel your trying to be a troll for going about the math statments and such

[Naturebeckles]

meny forum people are very picky and try to stress macros, if you look at the SCH board how I posted my SCH macros you know how crazy some of us can be to be perfectionist.

sometimes it can make or brake you, in lowamn situations the results of macroing like that become more apperent.

to me having a TP and WS macros these days are somewhat basic and requred, but thats just how i view things ( again take a look what i posted on my SCH macros, so you get the idea how much work i put into performace). ( people can have setups for different WS like how war use to have a ws set for raging rush because its crt and there was other times kings justace was better so they set up some different ws gear for that, that is something I do not expect, but nice to have, shows more pride in the job.) Then you have people that go even further that have PDT, MDT and other more situational gear.

telling people how to play never goes well, you feel people are telling you that your gimp for not using macros and people feel your trying to be a troll for going about the math statments and such


It was never about the Math for me except for I thought it was funny there was so much discussion going on about it. I mean, maybe it's just the people I've observed on my server, but I've watched other thfs solo mobs in the same area as me, as thf/dnc or with several gear changing macros because they haste and then WS and some of them have a lower survivability rate as me. I've watched them die soloing while I'm barely having any trouble. Those people make me laugh. Maybe what they do is good for a party setup when they're not having to tank mobs solo. But I see somebody like that, who doesn't realize you may not be able to do the same thing solo that you can in a party and I can't say they're a better player than me just because they swap gear for WS's and go with a haste/tp build when they're not WSing. It's never been about the Math for me. Likewise, it was easy for me to get irritated at people calling me a bad player just because I don't play that way. I don't see it as a basic thing to do. I see it as a player game choice. I don't really care if you outperform me as a player. That doesn't make me any less smart. Maybe I'm just lazy. Doesn't make me a bad player though.

[cidbahamut]

So what would make a bad player in your estimation then? Or are there no bad players in the game?

[HFX7686]

It was never about the Math for me except for I thought it was funny there was so much discussion going on about it. I mean, maybe it's just the people I've observed on my server, but I've watched other thfs solo mobs in the same area as me, as thf/dnc or with several gear changing macros because they haste and then WS and some of them have a lower survivability rate as me. I've watched them die soloing while I'm barely having any trouble. Those people make me laugh. Maybe what they do is good for a party setup when they're not having to tank mobs solo. But I see somebody like that, who doesn't realize you may not be able to do the same thing solo that you can in a party and I can't say they're a better player than me just because they swap gear for WS's and go with a haste/tp build when they're not WSing. It's never been about the Math for me. Likewise, it was easy for me to get irritated at people calling me a bad player just because I don't play that way. I don't see it as a basic thing to do. I see it as a player game choice. I don't really care if you outperform me as a player. That doesn't make me any less smart. Maybe I'm just lazy. Doesn't make me a bad player though.

Eyeballed it.

[Rambus]

It was never about the Math for me except for I thought it was funny there was so much discussion going on about it. I mean, maybe it's just the people I've observed on my server, but I've watched other thfs solo mobs in the same area as me, as thf/dnc or with several gear changing macros because they haste and then WS and some of them have a lower survivability rate as me. I've watched them die soloing while I'm barely having any trouble. Those people make me laugh. Maybe what they do is good for a party setup when they're not having to tank mobs solo. But I see somebody like that, who doesn't realize you may not be able to do the same thing solo that you can in a party and I can't say they're a better player than me just because they swap gear for WS's and go with a haste/tp build when they're not WSing. It's never been about the Math for me. Likewise, it was easy for me to get irritated at people calling me a bad player just because I don't play that way. I don't see it as a basic thing to do. I see it as a player game choice. I don't really care if you outperform me as a player. That doesn't make me any less smart. Maybe I'm just lazy. Doesn't make me a bad player though.

why would someone want to wair full haste soloing as a thf/dnc? i would think you would want evade gear at some point.

there is a time and place for everything and thats anther aspect of good and bad, knowing what to use and when

[Naturebeckles]

So what would make a bad player in your estimation then? Or are there no bad players in the game?

Of course I see people in the game that I would personally label as a bad player, but it's still just my opinion. Most of those people get on the game once every couple of months and play for just a few hours. So at that point, it's not really a matter of they suck... they just don't play enough to learn how to be better at what they do.

[cidbahamut]

Of course I see people in the game that I would personally label as a bad player, but it's still just my opinion. Most of those people get on the game once every couple of months and play for just a few hours. So at that point, it's not really a matter of they suck... they just don't play enough to learn how to be better at what they do.
So the issue is that they are not improving their performance?

[Naturebeckles]

why would someone want to wair full haste soloing as a thf/dnc? i would think you would want evade gear at some point.

there is a time and place for everything and thats anther aspect of good and bad, knowing what to use and when

EXACTLY. I do know what to use and when. I told some long time players... GOOD players... who are some of my whms & rdms who didn't know about <stpt> and <stal>. Two of them said they would try it. I'll most likely work in more haste/tp gear in party situations now. My triple attack merits are capped and I wear a brutal earring for double attack... so I do build my tp fast in other ways too.

[Rambus]

yeah this is getting off couse, can you admit in some wrong now after i explained it? this si why people think you are trolling and SE said in fourm ToS its bad to go too much off topic

[Naturebeckles]

So the issue is that they are not improving their performance?

No. It's not about performance. It's about situational strategy. And as I said, they don't play enough to know any better if they only get on a few hours every couple of months.

[Naturebeckles]

yeah this is getting off couse, can you admit in some wrong now after i explained it? this si why people think you are trolling and SE said in fourm ToS its bad to go too much off topic


Wrong about what? About haste? I've never argued against the Math to begin with. So, I don't know what I'm wrong about, other than a bunch of people telling me I'm a stupid bad player for not swapping gear for WS's.

[cidbahamut]

No. It's not about performance. It's about situational strategy. And as I said, they don't play enough to know any better if they only get on a few hours every couple of months.

Gearing is part of strategy. Having the right tools for the job and all that, yeah?

[Loir]

yeah this is getting off couse, can you admit in some wrong now after i explained it? this si why people think you are trolling and SE said in fourm ToS its bad to go too much off topic
They also said this too


Please do not post false, fabricated and/or fictitious information. It is unconstructive and will only confuse others. Please be careful with what you post and keep in mind that your words can affect others more than you may expect.

Lord only knows how much of nature's posts fall into that.

[Ralos]

Good write up =)
Haters gonna hate, so ignore them.

[Tamoa]

I mean, maybe it's just the people I've observed on my server, but I've watched other thfs solo mobs in the same area as me, as thf/dnc or with several gear changing macros because they haste and then WS and some of them have a lower survivability rate as me. I've watched them die soloing while I'm barely having any trouble.

You can have the best gear and a billion macros and still suck as a player. You can also have a bad day and get unlucky with a tp move or something similar. A well-geared thf who knows wtf they are doing and that has gear swap macros will have a HIGHER survivability rate than you.


Maybe I'm just lazy. Doesn't make me a bad player though.

When it's being lazy to the extent of NOT gear swapping - yes it does make you a bad player.

[Rambus]

Wrong about what? About haste? I've never argued against the Math to begin with. So, I don't know what I'm wrong about, other than a bunch of people telling me I'm a stupid bad player for not swapping gear for WS's.

its not optimal, can we move on now and let people talk about thier haste math XD

[Naturebeckles]

its not optimal, can we move on now and let people talk about thier haste math XD


Uh. yeah... sure!

[LittleXT]

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Haste_(Status_Effect)

A read for players returning to the game and/Or wish to eye-ball the pieces/compare haste on a quick glance.

[Fondle]

any tips on coaxing an unruly mage into pleasuring me with his haste spell?

[Alkalinehoe]

any tips on coaxing an unruly mage into pleasuring me with his haste spell?
Kick him and get a better one?

[Greatguardian]

any tips on coaxing an unruly mage into pleasuring me with his haste spell?

Serious reply just in case: Ask them politely for it if they haven't cast it on you, as that should be one of their most fundamental responsibilities in a party. If they start giving you crap for it, you can choose either to talk to them or to give up and just assume that you are dealing with someone who can't be helped. If they can't handle hasting, they are probably lacking in other areas of magery as well and you'd be better off just avoiding them in the future.

But because you're a horrid troll: Get out.

Edit: Also, what he said ^

[Fondle]

Also I enjoy using the SEA DAUGHTER aTMA due to the fact my only reliable means to obtain tactical points is the regeneration it offers, would wearing a maximum haste build on my ridill/joyeuse warrior be enough to counteract this "Mountainous Slow" it imposes upon me?

[Alkalinehoe]

Also I enjoy using the SEA DAUGHTER aTMA due to the fact my only reliable means to obtain tactical points is the regeneration it offers, would wearing a maximum haste build on my ridill/joyeuse warrior be enough to counteract this "Mountainous Slow" it imposes upon me?
No. Since you're already adding so much slow, I'm sure Slow+ caps at 25% too, so you're just better off fulltiming hecatomb gear so you can hit harder.

[Cream_Soda]

2) 80% haste isnt a 400% increase in attack rounds, at 240 dly you have 15 /min, with 80% haste you have 75. Thats a 500% increase. You had the right calculation when you translated it to hits.

Incorrect. It's a 400% increase.

Let's look at 100 delay.

80% haste

100 x .2 = 20 delay.


Ok, Now, 10 attack rounds before haste.

100 delay x 10 attack rounds = 1000 delay.

How many attacks does 20 delay get in 1000 units of delay?

1000/20 = 50 attack rounds.

50/10 = 500%. 500% isn't the increase. It's 500% of 10.

10 is 100% of 10. The increase from 100% to 500% is 400%

50 is 500% of 10, but it's not a 500% increase to 10. It's a 400% increase of 10.


I don't like how I worded that, so I'll try again.

Let's say 50 = 500%. Let's cut that into 5 equal slices.

10 10 10 10 10. Each slice is 100%

100 delay has one slice of 10.
20 delay has 5 slices of 10

4 slices is the increase. 4 slices is 400%.


Edit:
To make it really simple.

Let's look at 10 and 5.

5 x 2 = 10. 10 is a 100% increase of 5. (because you double 5 to get 10).

10/5 = 200%. It's 200% of 5, but the increase is 100% because 5 is still 100% of 5, which is our base point.

[Rambus]

Incorrect. It's a 400% increase.

Let's look at 100 delay.

80% haste

100 x .2 = 20 delay.


Ok, Now, 10 attack rounds before haste.

100 delay x 10 attack rounds = 1000 delay.

How many attacks does 20 delay get in 1000 units of delay?

1000/20 = 50 attack rounds.

50/10 = 500%. 500% isn't the increase. It's 500% of 10.

10 is 100% of 10. The increase from 100% to 500% is 400%

50 is 500% of 10, but it's not a 500% increase to 10. It's a 400% increase of 10.


I don't like how I worded that, so I'll try again.

Let's say 50 = 500%. Let's cut that into 5 equal slices.

10 10 10 10 10. Each slice is 100%

100 delay has one slice of 10.
20 delay has 5 slices of 10

4 slices is the increase. 4 slices is 400%.


Edit:
To make it really simple.

Let's look at 10 and 5.

5 x 2 = 10. 10 is a 100% increase of 5. (because you double 5 to get 10).

10/5 = 200%. It's 200% of 5, but the increase is 100% because 5 is still 100% of 5, which is our base point.

Guess i was right about pointing out what 400% increase ment

its 40/10 for the increase

you leave out that 10 because your stating the increase, so you cannot include the original vaule

I find this as a troll post:

Also I enjoy using the SEA DAUGHTER aTMA due to the fact my only reliable means to obtain tactical points is the regeneration it offers, would wearing a maximum haste build on my ridill/joyeuse warrior be enough to counteract this "Mountainous Slow" it imposes upon me?

[Cream_Soda]

lol, I found an even easier way to explain it now that I did the math w/ smaller numbers.

Compare 6 to 5, a 20% increase.

6/5 = 1.2. x100 = 120%.

The .2 is the actual increase, that one in front of it is a place holder.

[Nepharite]

Do people actually still think haste is pointless after 31 pages?

[Alkalinehoe]

Do people actually still think haste is pointless after 31 pages?
It's not that people think it's useless, it's that the players arguing against it are just lazy to properly gear their jobs.

[rog]

Do people actually still think haste is pointless after 31 pages?
10 posts per page would make me cry.

Almost as much as i am already because yes, people still think it's useless.

[JiltedValkyrie]

For about four years I had no idea haste on gear made you attack faster, so I never used any of it. I thought it was just for when a mage cast haste ON you that it worked. I was completely naive, but at least I wasn't debating the fact afterwards. I'm now a NIN with a good amount of haste and -delay gear. I do have a piece I gimp myself on purpose with instead of a suppa out of sentimentality. I'm sure I'll trade it in some day. If FFXI had more lines in the macros, I'd probably swap even more gear, but I do swap gear constantly. I also have a macro for every weapon skill for different gear swapping based on its mods (Evisceration, Hi, Yu, or something else).

If I had more time to play, I'd probably have capped my haste gear, but real life wins.

[Kuishen]

See, you I have no problem with. Natures on the other hand continues to argue that she is right and everybody else is wrong. Her stupidity level has risen far beyond my expectations in the last few pages.

[Captain]

A good thing to do in these kinds of situations, is TO NOT FEED THE TROLL.

[Captain]

For about four years I had no idea haste on gear made you attack faster

If I had more time to play, I'd probably have capped my haste gear, but real life wins.

wait, wat?

[RaenRyong]

Being good at the game makes you a no-lifer with no social skills (especially with the opposite sex) and means you care too much about FFXI, live in a basement and have FFXI as your sole hobby.

Being bad at the game means you have this amazing social life where you have sex approximately 15 times a day and all faults can be forgiven because unlike those ELITISTS you have a real life.

Finally, it is impossible to be good at the game and still enjoy it.

[Captain]

Being good at the game makes you a no-lifer with no social skills (especially with the opposite sex) and means you care too much about FFXI, live in a basement and have FFXI as your sole hobby.

Being bad at the game means you have this amazing social life where you have sex approximately 15 times a day and all faults can be forgiven because unlike those ELITISTS you have a real life.

Finally, it is impossible to be good at the game and still enjoy it.

-10/10 failed.

[Kitkat]

Apparently, you totally missed what I said. I said it's his opinion that haste is the most important gear choice that people can make in this game. It's apparent that he feels that way because he directly said that I was, among other people, the reason he made his original post in the first place. It was obvious to him that haste was not that important to me. So, maybe take a break from thinking for a while, or think another minute about what you just read before you reply to it.

I saw this....and then I wondered how this person got 3 lvl 90 jobs without understanding the importance of swapping between gears for specific reasons. Finally, I remembered that Abyssea, and prior to it AF burns, is how people primarily level up these days and the pieces all fell into place.

Honestly, if you can't see the purpose behind it or the math proving the purpose, then you really shouldn't throw yourself under the train. I mean you are more than welcome to argue your point until your fingers are numb, but any thf willing to macro between gear swaps will destroy the one that refuses to do so.


But then I will die because the mob is crit hitting me or using a TP move at the same time that I'm changing gear for a weapon skill, causing my mage to not be able to cure me. Then I die and lose all my tp anyway.

I still win.

You still lose actually. SE made this cool syntax that allows your mage to still select you even through gear swaps. You're point has just been proved invalid.

I have several 90s, both mage and melee (and in the case of Blu, a hybrid of both), and I can tell you I wouldn't stay in one gear set full time ever. I don't expect melee I cure as rdm, whm, or blu to either. I don't know...maybe you need to take your own advice.....
So, maybe take a break from thinking for a while, or think another minute about what you just read before you reply to it.

[Quintow]

Can't have your cake and eat it too

@raen's post :)

[Avidon]

So, in a nut shell... How do I factor in haste when compared to other stats?

[CebPtolemy]

I don't even... i got told to check out this thread back on page 4 and assumed it'd die soon after since haste is a mute point... Anyone who has ever used parser knows haste is best for tp... How has this gone for 32 pages? There have always been people who believe what Nature thinks, we just block them out and add them to the many people currently occupying the dunce corner of ffxi. Why the sudden need to feed her? Also Nature, if you're a troll: Bravo, serious achievement stuff in the making here.

But nice guide OP :D

[rog]

Being good at the game makes you a no-lifer with no social skills (especially with the opposite sex) and means you care too much about FFXI, live in a basement and have FFXI as your sole hobby.
Sounds good to me.

Actually that described me perfectly when i played. And only the last part doesn't still apply. All right!

[Greatguardian]

So, in a nut shell... How do I factor in haste when compared to other stats?

If you want a simple answer for level 90, capped skills, point for point Haste will typically win out over most other stats while TP'ing. Unfortunately, you'd have to be more specific to get a better answer than that. Are there any particular sets of gear or any gear slots within a set that you want help with? Specifics are much easier to work with than trying to make abstract rules.

[Avidon]

If you want a simple answer for level 90, capped skills, point for point Haste will typically win out over most other stats while TP'ing. Unfortunately, you'd have to be more specific to get a better answer than that. Are there any particular sets of gear or any gear slots within a set that you want help with? Specifics are much easier to work with than trying to make abstract rules.
I like simplicity. So I mean overall generally. I can build off a simple answer. and you answered it enough for me GG. Thank you. :)
And I'm not really the Gear swapping type. I did that with my thf on another character, and over the years I just gave up on trying as hard as I did. I like my new way of playing better, that being of simplicity.

[RAIST]

So, in a nut shell... How do I factor in haste when compared to other stats?

As stated towards the end of the OP, you need to strike a balance. Loading up on a butt-load of haste won't mean much if you are whiffing a lot. Guess that's why you still see some Aurore and Perle pieces in use--people trying to keep a bit of the ACC factored into the mix, but swapping in some other pieces for the haste. MNK may be a good one to look at...some of the AF3 pieces replace (or increase the haste) from Aurore in the same slots, but also increase Kick Attack rates for free damage. While you loose the StoreTP+8, you are gaining the extra attacks to compensate and balance the DoT, possible increasing it. Would like to see some parsed data between them.

Can't wait to finish my Tantra and Iga sets and hopefully ditch pinks for good.

Raist

[Kuishen]

After re-reading some of Nature's post I realized that she thinks you lose all your tp when you die. Interesting.

[Greatguardian]

As stated towards the end of the OP, you need to strike a balance. Loading up on a butt-load of haste won't mean much if you are whiffing a lot. Guess that's why you still see some Aurore and Perle pieces in use--people trying to keep a bit of the ACC factored into the mix, but swapping in some other pieces for the haste. MNK may be a good one to look at...some of the AF3 pieces replace (or increase the haste) from Aurore in the same slots, but also increase Kick Attack rates for free damage. While you loose the StoreTP+8, you are gaining the extra attacks to compensate and balance the DoT, possible increasing it. Would like to see some parsed data between them.

Can't wait to finish my Tantra and Iga sets and hopefully ditch pinks for good.

Raist

Eh, technically true. However, at level 90 factoring in 360+ skills, atmas/cruor buffs (inside abyssea), and level correction (outside abyssea, and in Visions/some Scars), Accuracy is fairly easy to cap without devoting gear to it. In the rare cases where accuracy is not capped, switching from Curry/Steak to Pizza should be more than sufficient. If it's between Accuracy and Haste, Haste is a clear winner in the vast majority of situations.

Attack is more of a concern these days. Most people are not capped on Attack for most things, so there is a tangible benefit to Attack+ in gear. However, you would need extremely low Attack in order for it to stand up to Haste in the same slot.

If you want a simple, 1 rule to rule them all type thing, gear for your X-hit, then Haste, TA, DA, Attack, and then Str/Acc in that order (I'm assuming fStr is capped in Abyssea, and that there is Str on other good pieces anyways). From there, let your food make up anything you're missing. Bison Steak is an extremely cheap, long lasting, potent Attack food and I highly recommend it. If you find yourself having accuracy issues for whatever reason, Marinara Pizza +1 should fill that gap. It's incredibly unlikely that anything these days will warrant sushi.

[Relyk]

It's funny how many posts are simply bandwagoning off both sides of a one sided argument. Also perhaps some people should use this time off to increase their vocabulary a bit? There must have been like 20 posts calling people "bad" players which is both undescriptive and really just floors the level of the conversation. Inefficient, underperforming, casual may have described the situation better although I am in no way supporting either side with this statement.

That being said this game has gone through so many changes over the years and with each of them come new standards. Its really not too terribly difficult to make a macro or two(dozen) to swap out some easily obtainable gear.

I'm surprised that in 33 pages of garbage no one mentioned that you can swap some gear without blinking which would at least be a slight step in the right direction thus solving the problem(If there ever was one with stal macros)
Waist neck back rings earrings, change em for WS and evasion or whatever floats your boat, you won't blink so even the laziest of white Mages can find you to heal you while scrolling through there hundred spells.

Maybe it just takes an appreciation of how far this game has come. I remember when I TPed in a hauby and full thick gear. Back then it was more than acceptable. Before the two handed update or even back when the /disengage trick still worked (lol anyone remember that?) but times change and so do the standards by which we measure ourselves.

The underlying math is what doesn't change which is what keeps me playing this game. To see the marginal effects of my decisions in both gearing and playing makes me hawt.

Part of me misses the colibri when the dats was plentiful, standards workable and marginal increases were the world. I would like to see an FF where dDex fStr and accuracy play a role again. Haste is an easy decision, has been for a long time and always will be.

[RAIST]

@ Greatguardian

yeah...I probly need to redo my sets for aby one day. I was thinking more along the lines of the older content. I spent so much time leveling up old school to around 65 or so before going into abyssea (didnd't want to just squat and leech in there.. wanted to stand a chance at actually hitting crap while in there), all my macros are still swapping in gears to exploit mods for WS and stuff. I need to get some quality time in abyssea to play around and make a new bank of macros for better accessories just for abyssea I guess.

but.. meh...wonder if it would really make much of a difference in there with all the atmas now. It's nothing to give your self +100 STR/DEX and a flat bump to both ACC and ATT with atma in there. Maybe a keen and assailants ring with mermans/coral earrings just to give the ATT a nice shot in the arm. Think I still have a tiger stole floating around too. With 91+ cooking, I always have an assortment of foods on me so I haven't really been arsed to mess with my accessories. Maybe one day I'll get around to tweaking it--so long as no one fusses about my WS damage in aby, probly won't worry about that too much for now.

Raist

[Greatguardian]

@ Greatguardian

yeah...I probly need to redo my sets for aby one day. I was thinking more along the lines of the older content. I spent so much time leveling up old school to around 65 or so before going into abyssea (didnd't want to just squat and leech in there.. wanted to stand a chance at actually hitting crap while in there), all my macros are still swapping in gears to exploit mods for WS and stuff. I need to get some quality time in abyssea to play around and make a new bank of macros for better accessories just for abyssea I guess.

but.. meh...wonder if it would really make much of a difference in there with all the atmas now. It's nothing to give your self +100 STR/DEX and a flat bump to both ACC and ATT with atma in there. Maybe a keen and assailants ring with mermans/coral earrings just to give the ATT a nice shot in the arm. Think I still have a tiger stole floating around too. With 91+ cooking, I always have an assortment of foods on me so I haven't really been arsed to mess with my accessories. Maybe one day I'll get around to tweaking it--so long as no one fusses about my WS damage in aby, probly won't worry about that too much for now.

Raist

Rajas ring is still king, so that helps a lot. For a secondary ring, I'd recommend Epona's if you can use it, Hoard if you can't. When you're sitting on that much Str/Dex, it doesn't really hurt that much in the TP phase and extra Store TP may either drop a hit (1-handers) or alleviate the STP burden in other slots (2-hander). Brutal Earring is also pretty boss if you own one. Since it sounds like you don't, I'd stomp through CoP whenever you get the chance. The lack of level caps on the fights now make them practically soloable up to Airship/Tenzen (which may themselves be soloable with difficulty), and even those are definitely duoable. Agasaya's collar is also a pretty nice neckpiece where Tiercel Necklace is not needed to hit the haste cap, I'd just recommend bringing TH and possibly Blue proc'ing the VNM.

The nice thing about WSC (WS damage mods) is that it doesn't cap, so even if you have +100 Str you can still use 5 more Str on your WS; as such there's probably nothing wrong with your WS sets if you're gearing for the WS mods. If anything, the fact that dDex (that is, Delta Dex, or the difference between your Dex and Target Agi) is often capped in Abyssea with Razed Ruins and Cruor buffs allows you to drop DEX from critical hit weaponskills that don't have a DEX mod; as extra DEX will not increase your critical hit rate once dDex is capped. fStr (a function of your Str versus the Target's Vit) is often capped inside Abyssea as well, so you're pretty safe gearing solely for AGI for Blade: Hi and things like that. Whatever has the biggest mod wins.

[RAIST]

Yeah.. I had pretty much dropped gearing for the DEX a while back. Figured I'd focus on the fSTR aspect more. I'm still trying to digest all the data on it. More often then not.. I just go find targets with a tight level range and just thwack away till I find a balance I like. And I went and got the mage ring as I was doing so much with mages at the time I finished...then fell back in love with SAM/NIN/MNK/DRG/DRK again in abyssea...meh. Wish we could go back and get all the rings and not have to choose just one.

I started going after some sea stuff... but just got frustrated trying to farm and such. Managed to get two obis and about halfway to two gorgets, then got the aby fever. Now that's all the LS wants to do. Hopefully we'll get back to Limbus once we get more AF3 knocked out. I want a Brutal and Boxers... but only have (embarrased to say it) 9 ABC's farmed... lol. But, I have decent stuff for straight ACC/ATT tweaking, and lots of STR to chunk in there. Somehow managed to cobble some decent stuff together. Inventory space was tight for a while too, but I just got my last of 10 jobs past 86 last week. Once I pawn off all that vanila gear I was using I can start going after the better goods. Hope the AH merger happens soon. Got a lot of gear to sell and I could use a recovering market to pawn it all.

So much to do... so little time.

Raist

[Harukusan]

I can't believe I just read 33 pages of this crap hoping to learn something. Not to sound rude, of course, the OP is a nice reference, as well as serious posts that came after it. Something to reflect on when you want to do the math to understand what your current gear is capable of compared to what you could be doing.

The basic recap that everyone should remember is that to maximize your damage output, the first thing you should do is build 26% of haste in your TP gear set. Stats such as accuracy are becoming almost unnecessary, especially in Abyssea. In fact, atmas seem to create a sort of "loophole" in the need for building certain stats for your WS or magic or whatever, further nurturing newer players, leading them to the belief that "gear isn't everything." Let's go back to the old days when doing a 2k+ damage WS meant you were a beast, and not average.

Anyway... Before I go too far off topic and say more than my half-asleep brain urges me to spew, I'll end with this neat little tool that's available free to the public, and doesn't hinder or enhance game-play in any way. It's merely used as a source of information. If you're lazy like me, you could go here: http://ffxicalculator.com/
The calculator does all the math (in terms of delay and accuracy, among other things) for you. Check it out!

[wish12oz]

I was never aware of just how much of an increase in damage moving from 75% to 80% delay reduction was. Thanks for the info.

[Dfoley]

Decided to make an excel sheet to assist the OP in showing this:

Currently its just for mnk/pup, and dual wield. I will add a section later for 2 handers and /sam.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0ByJNUfIjyWzrMTFlZTQ0ZDEtMmI1OS00MzgyLWJkYjItOGRhZTUxNDY0ZWEx&hl=en

Follow that, select file, download original.

Notes:
1)i did haste calcs in % form instead of the 1024 form, I will go back later and correct it but the difference is so marginal it wont change anything more then a few 0.0x%
2) Bard haste is assumed to be 25% (+2 march and af3 gloves)
3) any suggestions on what else to add or any calculations i goofed let me know.

I feel this better shows the difference between 24% haste and 25% haste (gear) since it factors in MA or dual wield, as well spell, songs, and JA

[RaenRyong]

There must have been like 20 posts calling people "bad" players which is both undescriptive and really just floors the level of the conversation. Inefficient, underperforming, casual may have described the situation better although I am in no way supporting either side with this statement.

I think casual as an implied synonym with bad/inefficient/underperforming is a bit insulting to a casual player. Not gear swapping and learning to gear your jobs is not an example of a casual player - it is an example of a lazy/uncaring/undesirable one.

[RAIST]

NICE Dfoley. didn't notice I was so close to capping haste on MNK if I /WHM and haste myself. Guess that explains why MNK is such a hate monger now with AF3 pieces on--and I only have 2 pieces completed so far.

Just a note for the future. When publishing to the web, save those office docs to the older compatability types (File/Save As and pick .XLS/.DOC format and not .XLSX/.DOCX). Not everyone has the newer Office products. I had the add-on conversion packet installed to revert it back to XLS though, but not everyone knows about that.

Raist

[Dooom]

NICE Dfoley. didn't notice I was so close to capping haste on MNK if I /WHM and haste myself.

...or get the mages in your party to do it for you?


Guess that explains why MNK is such a hate monger now with AF3 pieces on--and I only have 2 pieces completed so far.

Many jobs can cap attack speed and haste now. It is a contributing factor to monk's strength, but it is far and away from being the sole reason.

[Dfoley]

okay fixed dual wield and changed the file type to xls

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0ByJNUfIjyWzrNmNiZTcyMTgtMWJjMy00NzFlLWI1NGQtM2NjMzYwYTUwMGY4&hl=en

as a monk with spell haste, you are 20~30% away from the cap. You need bard and /dnc to reach it.

Ideally use brd/whm for 40% haste then use mnk/dnc to cap yourself.

[RAIST]

@ Dooom

lol.. I usually do /DNC or /NIN for the survivablity factor, but sometimes I just know that, no matter what, I'm gonna die a lot so I'll /WHM just to make sure I have reraise up. Not ideal I know, but hell... MNK is just such a beast on it's own now, regardless of subjob. Even with just WHM Haste it is crazy enough... but when we manage to con someone to come BRD too... omfg it is INSANE. I really wish we had more SMN available--I miss being able to dish out the beat down sometimes...

Raist

[Greatguardian]

okay fixed dual wield and changed the file type to xls

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0ByJNUfIjyWzrNmNiZTcyMTgtMWJjMy00NzFlLWI1NGQtM2NjMzYwYTUwMGY4&hl=en

as a monk with spell haste, you are 20~30% away from the cap. You need bard and /dnc to reach it.

Ideally use brd/whm for 40% haste then use mnk/dnc to cap yourself.

If you're giving a MNK bard support you may as well add a DNC main to the mix and go MNK/WAR =/

[RAIST]

omg I wish. I can't EVEN go SAM/WAR anymore unless we are just flat out raping stuff in there. That Double Attack boost is just too much damage...among all the other wonderful goodies /WAR brings with it.... heheheheh. And don't EVEN get me started on DRG/SAM's TP gain <drool>.

Really sucks when you have to nerf yourself sometimes to stay alive...takes me back to when I used to play RNG... /sigh

Raist

[rog]

omg I wish. I can't EVEN go SAM/WAR anymore unless we are just flat out raping stuff in there. That Double Attack boost is just too much damage...among all the other wonderful goodies /WAR brings with it.... heheheheh. And don't EVEN get me started on DRG/SAM's TP gain <drool>.

Really sucks when you have to nerf yourself sometimes to stay alive...takes me back to when I used to play RNG... /sigh

Raist
What is "too much damage"?

[Therin]

I had to get out the popcorn for this thread.

[Henihhi]

MMM popcorn! But seriously, if mages in abyssea cant keep you alive, there is an issue- unlimited mana pool, godly cureskin, etc and you're worried about dying? Time to find new mages.

[RAIST]

hehe.. it's more that they don't want me to do it b/c I become too much an mp sponge. /WAR and /SAM can make so many jobs such hate mongers now. I usally have the gear to hold my own...took on 5 mandies the other night and killed them all after the "tank" died... but... meh. Held Sippoy on WHM once while the "tank" recovered from Weakness. I'm forever told to turn around on an NM so the NIN can get hate... asked not to WS so much... have to spam jumps to shed hate on DRG... I'm like WTF am I supposed to do, sit on my ass? It's frustrating sometimes how crazy hate is on some targets now. For the last month or so, they've always had me come WHM or SMN for the triggers...which is getting a little old. While it's always fun smacking things with Garuda...I'd like to feel the rush of beating something myself once in a while. But noooo... Cataclysm is bad... makes amber if it kills.... meh.

...no respect...

Raist

[Greatguardian]

hehe.. it's more that they don't want me to do it b/c I become too much an mp sponge. /WAR and /SAM can make so many jobs such hate mongers now. I usally have the gear to hold my own...took on 5 mandies the other night and killed them all after the "tank" died... but... meh. Held Sippoy on WHM once while the "tank" recovered from Weakness. I'm forever told to turn around on an NM so the NIN can get hate... asked not to WS so much... have to spam jumps to shed hate on DRG... I'm like WTF am I supposed to do, sit on my ass? It's frustrating sometimes how crazy hate is on some targets now. For the last month or so, they've always had me come WHM or SMN for the triggers...which is getting a little old. While it's always fun smacking things with Garuda...I'd like to feel the rush of beating something myself once in a while. But noooo... Cataclysm is bad... makes amber if it kills.... meh.

...no respect...

Raist

The problem doesn't seem to be with you, it seems to be with them.

[Henihhi]

OMG not another 'I dont swap gear because then the mage cant cure me" bs. As someone that mains whm and rdm, this is total bs. This is sheer laziness, and bragging that you lead/sack w/e in a ls is doing no justice to them because you are a sheer moron. Been playing since 2007? and you dont know how to gear swap to optimize play? that is nothing to brag about. But yet you sit here and bash on people for trying to help you improve. Obviously you and anyone else that holds this position needs to not post n forums until you learn how to play the game. And you accuse people of trying to troll you/harrass you for giving you tips on gameplay?Seriously what drugs are you on. This is not opinion, it is fact, math >your self righteous blabber on some forum that you think will get noticed. Pease don't indulge us anymore with your pitiful excuses for a melee not swapping gear.

[Greatguardian]

I think you're a few pages too late :P

[Yarly]

So I put on haste gear and I don't notice my casting going faster. What am I doing wrong? Is this a bug?????

[Avidon]

I'm being very sincere when I say this, so bring on the tough love.
I've been playing this game since the release of the NA ps2 release (off and on). In times past I use to gear swap, but as I got older and took on more responsibilities, this game turned more into a leisure thing and I do what the capacity of my brain will let me. :P
So I don't gear swap anymore, I sorta try to find that happy medium, and i have varying sets of gear I use for one job based off a situation but I don't change them that much to count as gear swapping. And I'm in no way in disagreement over fact. Math doesn't lie. But does that make me a bad player? I'd like to think skill vs gear can find a happy medium.
Educate me. Thanks :)

[Henihhi]

Yea probably lol. I didnt follow this thread step by step then saw this same bs about not gear swapping elsewhere and read this one. Jus saw a lot of the posts and the brag sigs and had to laugh. Finished cop the hard way and started playing in 2007? Okay, i need some of w/e they are on. A sack and shell holder and doesnt know that haste improves dps output? And doesnt swap gear to improve said output? this has nothing to do with being an elitist, this has to do with common f***ing sense.

[RAIST]

So I put on haste gear and I don't notice my casting going faster. What am I doing wrong? Is this a bug?????

Haste doesn't affect casting time...that's Fast Cast traits. Haste reduces delays between actions, not the speed of the action itself, so it reduces the time between things like when you swing your weapon again and the cool down timer between recasting the same spell.

Raist

[Greatguardian]

I'm being very sincere when I say this, so bring on the tough love.
I've been playing this game since the release of the NA ps2 release (off and on). In times past I use to gear swap, but as I got older and took on more responsibilities, this game turned more into a leisure thing and I do what the capacity of my brain will let me. :P
So I don't gear swap anymore, I sorta try to find that happy medium, and i have varying sets of gear I use for one job based off a situation but I don't change them that much to count as gear swapping. And I'm in no way in disagreement over fact. Math doesn't lie. But does that make me a bad player? I'd like to think skill vs gear can find a happy medium.
Educate me. Thanks :)

To be honest it's really not that bad to set up basic macros, and the Improvement : Effort ratio is enormous. It may take 2 minutes to change your WS macro to include going from Walahra Turban to Varangian Helm and back, and each time you WS after that macro is set up you are reaping benefits from it. Obviously that's only a single slot being changed, but even just that one slot makes a huge difference in your damage output. Doing that even for just a couple slots is tons better than not doing it at all, and really isn't much work.

[Avidon]

Yeah you're right man. lol. I'm being such a lazy ass. I guess if I'm paying for a game and invest time into it, no matter how tired and shot my brain is at the end of the day, I should try to make the best of it. And it'll only improve myself as a player.
/sigh better start working on some builds. And as for my pld, Haste is a god sent because as for the moment we wont be used for anything but what little Dps we can offer. (I say that realizing I have no grounds on which to back that claim up.)
Thanks again GG.

[Harukusan]

hehe.. it's more that they don't want me to do it b/c I become too much an mp sponge. /WAR and /SAM can make so many jobs such hate mongers now. I usally have the gear to hold my own...took on 5 mandies the other night and killed them all after the "tank" died... but... meh. Held Sippoy on WHM once while the "tank" recovered from Weakness. I'm forever told to turn around on an NM so the NIN can get hate... asked not to WS so much... have to spam jumps to shed hate on DRG... I'm like WTF am I supposed to do, sit on my ass? It's frustrating sometimes how crazy hate is on some targets now. For the last month or so, they've always had me come WHM or SMN for the triggers...which is getting a little old. While it's always fun smacking things with Garuda...I'd like to feel the rush of beating something myself once in a while. But noooo... Cataclysm is bad... makes amber if it kills.... meh.

...no respect...

Raist

I often find myself telling several people not to fight certain NMs and to let the "pros" handle it. But I only do this when the situation sees fit. If you can't put out sufficient dps to make up for the tp you're feeding to the targets, you're better off not getting in the way. That's not to say I don't give people a chance. If they can't perform up to standard, they are only hurting the cause. That's why I find this thread helpful to people who are willing to learn to adapt and improve themselves, so they aren't constantly asked to sit on the side twiddling their thumbs.

Edit: with 1-2 above average WHMs, TP feed shouldn't really be an issue with a majority of NMs that are popular today, so if anyone is dying, you can put the blame on your slacking mages.

In your case Raist, it sounds like your DRG should be up there tanking and you should fire the NIN that can't keep up enough dps to maintain a solid hold on hate (although since enmity has a cap that's easy to reach, it's almost impossible for any single person to have hate at all times, assuming everyone is doing their job correctly).

With Abyssea, it's obvious which jobs are most useful for the biggest situations, namely triggering NM weaknesses. When you want a WAR and NIN on the front line, and you bring say RNG or BST or DRG, you are definitely going to be doing a lot of bench warming. That's not to say they are completely useless, but most situations wouldn't generally call for them. In the end, it's all situational.

[Relyk]

Yeah you're right man. lol. I'm being such a lazy ass. I guess if I'm paying for a game and invest time into it, no matter how tired and shot my brain is at the end of the day, I should try to make the best of it. And it'll only improve myself as a player.
/sigh better start working on some builds. And as for my pld, Haste is a god sent because as for the moment we wont be used for anything but what little Dps we can offer. (I say that realizing I have no grounds on which to back that claim up.)
Thanks again GG.

This is too great, I cried a little inside.

[Dauntless]

Does gear haste effect casting times as well?

[RAIST]

recasting time, but not casting time--that's Fast Cast.

Raist

[Dauntless]

recasting time, but not casting time--that's Fast Cast.

Raist

Tis what I was referring to. Thanks.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

yeah, now if you can combine fast cast gear and haste gear, that would be sexy ^.^

[Vivik]

yeah, now if you can combine fast cast gear and haste gear, that would be sexy ^.^

Homam Cosciales (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/15576/homam-cosciales)

[Frost]

yeah, now if you can combine fast cast gear and haste gear, that would be sexy ^.^

Actually....
You can....

Fast cast initializes at the start of a spell and carries through to the end; Haste only needs to be on when your spell is completing. So if you start a spell in fast cast gear and end in Haste gear you get the best of both worlds.

Personally I start casting in say on thief: Anwig Salade(3), Magoraga Beads(10% cast time), Mirke Wardecors(5), Loquac. Earring(2), and Homam Cosciales(3), and end in 29% haste(overkill, but it's just how the gear works out). So I take 23% off the actual casting time, and 25% off the recast (Technically something like 36% off the recast inclusive).

Taking that a step further, you can pile in Fastcast gear, Spell interuption gear, and evasion gear at start, then switch to evasion(changing pieces you no longer need) and Haste towards the end of a spell, you get the FULL benefits of your gear. You only gain in that, since you're not attacking while casting, there's no harm in going fully defensive.

[Byrth]

(Technically something like 36% off the recast inclusive).

I'm not sure how you're calculating it, but I think it's technically just 25% off the recast. You only get Recast benefit from Fast Cast if you're wearing it when the spell completes. Also, M.bead necklace gives no recast bonus.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

I know you can combine them, I guess I worded my....words wrong ;p I meant that it is sexy when you do combine them.

[Frost]

I'm not sure how you're calculating it, but I think it's technically just 25% off the recast. You only get Recast benefit from Fast Cast if you're wearing it when the spell completes. Also, M.bead necklace gives no recast bonus.

Ah, kk, I always thought it gave both bonuses on initialization, that's good to know, thanks.

[Indalecia]

HO-LIE CARP! How did I not see this?

Cream, update me, I'm not reading 37 pages...GO

[rog]

HO-LIE CARP! How did I not see this?

Cream, update me, I'm not reading 37 pages...GO
Change your settings to 30 posts per page, and you only have to read 13.

[Altheav]

Thanks for the guide, Frost. Very interesting reading.


Decided to make an excel sheet to assist the OP in showing this:

/em swoons!
(I work with spreadsheets for a living and have a habit of spreadsheeting everything in my life as a result, lol. Loves me some spreadsheets <3)


Actually....
You can....

Fast cast initializes at the start of a spell and carries through to the end; Haste only needs to be on when your spell is completing. So if you start a spell in fast cast gear and end in Haste gear you get the best of both worlds.


Do you need to be a PC player to do this, or can an xbox player such as myself take advantage of this as well?

[Greatguardian]

Xbox players can take advantage of this with clever usage of /waits, for some spells. Since I'm fairly sure /wait would have to be an integer value, /wait 1 may not swap gear fast enough to take advantage of this on faster casting spells. Cures usually work fine this way though, ie:

/equip Cure clogs and junk
/ma "Cure IV" <stpt>
/wait 1
/equip Potency/-Enmity feet and junk

<st> tags will wait until you confirm a target before processing the rest of the macro. <t> works in this case too, but what Whm still uses <t> etc etc.

[Altheav]

Thanks! That helps, as it was cures I was most interested in, anyway. And heh, yeah, I think I switched to <st> tags almost immediately after writing my first macros.

[Byrth]

Thanks! That helps, as it was cures I was most interested in, anyway. And heh, yeah, I think I switched to <st> tags almost immediately after writing my first macros.

When I played on PS2 I always did it manually. I had a Fast Cast macro with my Fast Cast gear in it, so I'd hit that, initiate a spell from the menu, and switch to nuking gear / etc. It used to be pretty helpful on things like Ix'Drk duos.

[Kailea_Nagisa]

Xbox players can take advantage of this with clever usage of /waits, for some spells. Since I'm fairly sure /wait would have to be an integer value, /wait 1 may not swap gear fast enough to take advantage of this on faster casting spells. Cures usually work fine this way though, ie:

/equip Cure clogs and junk
/ma "Cure IV" <stpt>
/wait 1
/equip Potency/-Enmity feet and junk

<st> tags will wait until you confirm a target before processing the rest of the macro. <t> works in this case too, but what Whm still uses <t> etc etc.

dont forget they changed a few thigns, so now you can do it this way....

/equip "your cure stuff"
/ma "Cure III" <stpt> <wait 1>
/equip "Potency and/or -enmity stuff"

[Shakuzen]

Hmm.. This is all very nice and that, but people sacrifice all of their accuracy gear for haste.
You need a combination, people! 25% haste means nothing if you can't hit the mob. See if you can get at least +25 accuracy into your TP gear as well.

[Greatguardian]

Hmm.. This is all very nice and that, but people sacrifice all of their accuracy gear for haste.
You need a combination, people! 25% haste means nothing if you can't hit the mob. See if you can get at least +25 accuracy into your TP gear as well.

This is rather meaningless these days. Combat skills and level correction have risen to the point where it's incredibly easy to cap accuracy on anything in the game without gearing for it. You also gain much more switching from Meat to Pizza+1 to cover your accuracy than ever tossing a single point of Haste.

Still, I'm glad this thread was bumped. The OP is incredibly good to have around and I hope more people read it.

[Andylynn]

Haste, havent you heard it takes time to proc?

[rog]

You also gain much more switching from Meat to Pizza+1 to cover your accuracy than ever tossing a single point of Haste.
Not always, but ok.

[Greatguardian]

Not always, but ok.

Oh come now Rog, you know we could outline the situational advantages of meat, pizza, accuracy, and haste all day and all people would look for in it is a single rule of thumb to use till the servers shut down :(. Anyone who knows better already knows better, those who don't but want to know would ask elsewhere.

[Doombringer]

interesting point where you compare DA to haste... that had not occurred to me..

now if only i could find a haste build for rdm that didn't suck...

[rog]

Oh come now Rog, you know we could outline the situational advantages of meat, pizza, accuracy, and haste all day and all people would look for in it is a single rule of thumb to use till the servers shut down :(. Anyone who knows better already knows better, those who don't but want to know would ask elsewhere.
In fact, 75 atk should always beat 1 haste, assuming acc is capped in either build.

[Greatguardian]

In fact, 75 atk should always beat 1 haste, assuming acc is capped in either build.

Using RCB? D'oh. I knew something was off. I was looking at Pizza+1 vs YCB, idk why. Total brain fart.

[Vivik]

I like pizza, Steve.

[Frost]

interesting point where you compare DA to haste... that had not occurred to me..

now if only i could find a haste build for rdm that didn't suck...

You're a Rdm, you can cast Haste, so you can cap recast and cast time Really easily.
AF1 Head and AF2 Body will cap Fast Cast, all that you need from there is 10% gear haste to make up the rest.

Optimally, Dusk Gloves +1 + Speed Belt would be the best combo for space. But a haste belt like Swift, with Dusk Dusk Ledelsens, Dusk Gloves, and Nashira Seraweels would cap, and be cheap. If you don't want to go to Limbus, or can't; Tern set, and Dusk tips are the way to go.

Warlock's Chapeau (Initialization) >>> Zelus Tiara (before the spell completes)
Tiercel Necklace
Duelist's Tabbard
Dusk Gloves +1
Speed Belt (Sonic, Velocious)
Nashira Seraweels
Dusk Ledelsens +1

I think that is as good as it gets unless there's some weird augment piece I don't know about. That brings your casting time down to 50%(cap) and your recasts down 49%. That's almost capped without haste.

Now if you're talking about some kind of melee haste set, then all I'd say is level a more appropriate job lol....

[Neisan_Quetz]

Rdm can't use Tiercel.

EDIT: assuming you actually do melee (in which case, you should be working on CDC):

Zelus
Goliard Saio
Dusk Gloves (+1 if Nash legs)
Goading
ASA pants 3% haste Augment (Nashira otherwise)
Dusk Ledelsens+1

Will cap haste in a melee set for Rdm.

[Doombringer]

i AM working on cdc actually. vnm's are all done. a lot of my ls says it's a waste of an emp but we have like 6 emp weapons in the group already, all with my finger in the pot to varying degrees. so it's sorta my turn >.> if i wanna waste my emp weapon, that's my business, right? plus, how cool would it be to be the ls that got an almace for one of there rdms, on purpose!?

it just feels like you give up a lot for haste in some of these slots, i'd wear dusk(+1) hands in a heartbeat, (trade away my tarasque+1, -6 atk? no problem.) and zelus tiara looks like an easy decision to. but for legs, belt, body, and boots.. i'd be giving up tumblers, anguinus, AJ, and rager respectively. seems like a lot to trade away.. that being said, it does seem like i'm capping ACC against most stuff with minimum effort now, and i WAS under-valueing haste until i read this post.. so i'm excited to TRY it anyway.

[Frost]

Yeah Total derp moment there. Idk why I thought Triecel Neck was in the RDM arsenal.... Sad thing is I had it in my RDM macros lol....

Anyways, Good stuff. Good luck on your Almace.

[Frost]

Just finished adding a bunch of stuff to the original post.

Most of the stuff added was due to recent conversations going on in other threads...
People still just don't get it...

[Kuishen]

They will never get it. They can't understand how to even use Dev Tags properly, what makes you think they're going to understand something having to do with math? lol

[Fiarlia]

They will never get it. They can't understand how to even use Dev Tags properly, what makes you think they're going to understand something having to do with math? lol

Those people won't, but some people will. I'd rather this be up and help a few dozen people across all worlds than let it drop and help nobody at all.

[wish12oz]

This thread should really have all the junk removed from it, and be stickied!
(ok so Im just bumping the thread)

[Brigandier]

This thread should really have all the junk removed from it, and be stickied!
(ok so Im just bumping the thread)I gave your post a "Like!", because the information here really should be shown in a cleaned up form, but at the same time I wonder if it's a good thing for new players to see a gimp get thrashed, maybe splitting it off into a topic called "What other players think of you putting them out!" would be appropriate. :)

I read about the first 15 pages or so, and a lot of people made the argument that not gearing haste/swapping gear lowers your damage output and makes you gimp, but I never really seen anyone point out the aspect of respect to other players. FFXI is a game heavily geared towards cooperation. Your performance can greatly affect battle outcomes which in turn affects the other people you are playing with. Everyone should strive for the best performance possible out of respect for the people that end up playing with them.

Also: Being an elitist is FUN. I feel sorry for those players who gear bad and just brush it off with the "w/e it's their opinion I'll play like I want" excuse. Making your character push the limit and having friendly competition with other elitists is one of the most rewarding aspects of this game, don't pass it up.

Whoops: Just realized I necro'd this thread. Oh well, more people need to know about haste. :)

[Soundwave]

Thank you for this post, I've played Mage jobs from the start of this game and just about a year ago I've leveled a few melee jobs, and your post made it very clear.

Thanks

[wish12oz]

Your performance can greatly affect battle outcomes which in turn affects the other people you are playing with. Everyone should strive for the best performance possible out of respect for the people that end up playing with them.

Such a good statement right here.

[Volkai]

OP: great post. It's nice to see people running the numbers so that others can learn why certain stats are so valuable.


Also: Being an elitist is FUN. I feel sorry for those players who gear bad and just brush it off with the "w/e it's their opinion I'll play like I want" excuse. Making your character push the limit and having friendly competition with other elitists is one of the most rewarding aspects of this game, don't pass it up.

Unfortunately, gear elitists tend to come off in a poor light - you might say you feel sorry for them, but more often than not a new or average player's experience with a gear elitist is being denigrated for their less-than-optimal gear.

Gear elitists, in my experience, don't care where you're coming from -- if your gear is not the best possible (which at this point in time generally means a full set of Emp +2 armor and a lv.90 Emp weapon unless you're using Twilight gear) then you will be treated as someone who does not deserve to be breathing air, much less playing FFXI, and that gear elitist is likely to instruct you to either die in a fire or take a short walk off of a tall building.

This often leads to the impression that anyone with good gear is likely to have a similarly poor attitude, and the desire to avoid also having such a bad attitude may lead some players to intentionally pursue 'lesser' gear.



It doesn't help that such gear elitists may ignore such factors as that a person has just gotten their first job to 90 and therefore has not yet had the opportunity to acquire the gear an elitist might expect.

[JensenM]

Haste is essential if you are a Warrior who uses one of the big, bulky weapons (Scythe, Greatsword etc.). Thanks for the guide, it was an interesting read.

[Volkai]

Haste is essential if you are a Warrior who uses one of the big, bulky weapons (Scythe, Greatsword etc.). Thanks for the guide, it was an interesting read.

I think your statement remains true with a bit of pruning:

Haste is essential if you are a Warrior ... .

As someone who (still) favors Dual Wield on Warrior (though I use two-handers as well) I find that Haste is the single most important stat once you cap Accuracy. Doubly so when soloing on WAR/dnc.

[Greatguardian]

Haste is essential if you play FFXI.

[Volkai]

Haste is essential if you play FFXI.

After a certain point it is. You don't need Haste to hit level 30, after all.

[Jar]

OP: great post. It's nice to see people running the numbers so that others can learn why certain stats are so valuable.



Unfortunately, gear elitists tend to come off in a poor light - you might say you feel sorry for them, but more often than not a new or average player's experience with a gear elitist is being denigrated for their less-than-optimal gear.

Gear elitists, in my experience, don't care where you're coming from -- if your gear is not the best possible (which at this point in time generally means a full set of Emp +2 armor and a lv.90 Emp weapon unless you're using Twilight gear) then you will be treated as someone who does not deserve to be breathing air, much less playing FFXI, and that gear elitist is likely to instruct you to either die in a fire or take a short walk off of a tall building.

This often leads to the impression that anyone with good gear is likely to have a similarly poor attitude, and the desire to avoid also having such a bad attitude may lead some players to intentionally pursue 'lesser' gear.



It doesn't help that such gear elitists may ignore such factors as that a person has just gotten their first job to 90 and therefore has not yet had the opportunity to acquire the gear an elitist might expect.

Or we hate noobs that from /c them you know are not going to be gearing right ever because there are obvious better ways to use all the gear they have and or better gear on the AH for like 5K..

I can burn a DD to 90 in 2 days and in another 2 days skills are all caped and gear is good enough to deal damage(no af+1/2) i prob with the noobs on this game are the noobs that cant do any damage on DD jobs because abyssea made DD so hard. srsly no excuse to go to an abyssea party and ws for 1-300..

[Volkai]

Or we hate noobs that from /c them you know are not going to be gearing right ever because there are obvious better ways to use all the gear they have and or better gear on the AH for like 5K..

I can burn a DD to 90 in 2 days and in another 2 days skills are all caped and gear is good enough to deal damage(no af+1/2) i prob with the noobs on this game are the noobs that cant do any damage on DD jobs because abyssea made DD so hard. srsly no excuse to go to an abyssea party and ws for 1-300..

I wonder, though, if you are able to differentiate between a noob and a newb?

[Jar]

I wonder, though, if you are able to differentiate between a noob and a newb?

only on Tuesdays

[Mirage]

I don't expect everyone i play with to have the best gear. I only expect them not to have stupid gear. WSing in turbo turban is stupid gear. TPing in hecatomb is stupid gear.

Using perle gear isn't stupid, even if it isn't optimal, so I have no real problems with people using that. Unless of course you have something better. Oh yeah, and if you're also mixing and matching your perle gear with other pieces, breaking the set bonus and ending up with a lower total haste than full perle. Saw that a few days ago, it made me sad.

[CrystalWeapon]

OP: great post. It's nice to see people running the numbers so that others can learn why certain stats are so valuable.

Unfortunately, gear elitists tend to come off in a poor light - you might say you feel sorry for them, but more often than not a new or average player's experience with a gear elitist is being denigrated for their less-than-optimal gear.

Gear elitists, in my experience, don't care where you're coming from -- if your gear is not the best possible (which at this point in time generally means a full set of Emp +2 armor and a lv.90 Emp weapon unless you're using Twilight gear) then you will be treated as someone who does not deserve to be breathing air, much less playing FFXI, and that gear elitist is likely to instruct you to either die in a fire or take a short walk off of a tall building.

[...]



This thread should be sticked. It is very informative and is done in a very friendly manner. I agree with you that most (elitists) are regarded with the stigma of being very rude and condescending. If more took the time to explain common misconceptions about game mechanics in a straightforward non-insulting way, these forums would be alot more enjoyable. You always run into the classic (noob) that will insult you and rant about playing their own way, but that's an inevitability. When the data is presented like this with clear citations and test results listed, you do reach the ears of the uninformed/misinformed. When you talk about horribly geared players to their face about how badly they fail in a rude manner, you sometimes cause those players to continue to play bad out of a defense mechanism.

tl;dr: Would be nice to see more of this over (troll) / (omg se how could you do this) / (demand) / (outright idiotic) threads.

[Reiterpallasch]

Using perle gear isn't stupid, even if it isn't optimal, so I have no real problems with people using that. Unless of course you have something better. Oh yeah, and if you're also mixing and matching your perle gear with other pieces, breaking the set bonus and ending up with a lower total haste than full perle. Saw that a few days ago, it made me sad.
Totally agree. It's a shame how many people will fight and argue with you if you even so much try to help with a bit of advice. Suggesting that 5/5 perle is better than 4/5 and ohat will likely just end up with the "ur teh elitist herp derp" talk, or "haste doesn't matter when it just makes me miss faster!" crap that people spread around.


This thread should be sticked.
Yes please!

[Korpg]

I wouldn't say this needs to be sticked, but at least the thread should be cleaned up alot.

Like from post 2 and beyond. Up until people got back on topic, which was, what, page 33 or so?

[Alukat]

quote of the op:
"% DA Haste
00% - 0 - 0
05% - 5 - 5
10% - 10 - 11
15% - 15 - 18
20% - 20 - 25
25% - 25 - 33
30% - 30 - 43
35% - 35 - 54
40% - 40 - 67
45% - 45 - 82
50% - 50 - 100
55% - 55 - 122
60% - 60 - 150
65% - 65 - 186
70% - 70 - 233
75% - 75 - 300
80% - 80 - 400"

thx for this chart :)
20% haste (+25)+ 7% DA (+8)= 21-22% (assuming at one u get +27) haste + 5% DA (+6)= 25% haste (+33)

now adding haste spell

35% haste (+54) + 7% DA (+10) = +64
37% haste (assuming +57) + 5% DA (+7) = +64
40% haste = +67

conclusion:

at lower haste level u can rep some haste for DA, 20% haste + 8%+ DA and 22% haste + 6%+ DA will outdo 25% haste.
gonna hope SE will give more DA & TA gear to us in the future ^^

[wish12oz]

at lower haste level u can rep some haste for DA, 20% haste + 8%+ DA and 22% haste + 6%+ DA will outdo 25% haste.
gonna hope SE will give more DA & TA gear to us in the future ^^

The chart actually says if you go from 20% haste to 25% haste you gain 8.33% damage.
+8% DA is only an 8% damage increase if you have 0% DA to begin with, since DA has diminishing returns the more of it you have. And even if you had 0% DA to begin with, 8.33% is bigger then 8%.


Haste value-----------Increase in attack rounds
20%------------------- 25.00%
25%------------------- 33.33%

33.33-25=8.33

[RAIST]

have to also remember that DA is still dealing with some randomness--it's not a flat pattern that x% DA gives you an extra attack every Y number of attacks to increase your attacks per minute. On the other hand, Haste is a constant increase in your attacks per minute.

[Laraul]

Instead of explain it like the OP which is just a concept, I shall use actual equations to explain how haste works.

Where...

X=BASE DELAY
Y=RESULTING DELAY
N=HASTE MODIFIER


Y = X - X * (N/100)

We know that according to the OP that 33 is the delay reduction, and we know that haste is 25% or 25/100.
X * (25 / 100) = 33

So now we have...
Y = X - 33

Well X must be 132. And you get...
Y = 132 - 33

or
Y = 99
So Y = 99 when N = 25 and X = 132.

I'd like to know how the op got the numbers used for haste of 30% - 80% The math didn't work unless you keep Y constant possibly. So the OP is saying that haste does nothing?

NOTE:
Your base delay (with nothing equipped) is 240. Some weapon gear has a delay less than 240.

[hiko]

I think you didn't read the OP and just the quote, or you just didnt understand anything.

read the OP again, if you still think what you just wrote then go back to school.

[RAIST]

The math can get a bit screwy b/c you are dealing with floored values and number of swings in a set time frame. If you run the numbers on just # swings per minute you can be dropping swings because you can't swing .15 times lol. But if you expand it out longer, you can see how it takes off at a more consistent rate.

The big point to remember about haste is that it is a flat increase to your attack speed, and thus your TP gain. DA works on a different mechanic that is not as consistent in both your attack speed and TP gain.

Edit:
210 delay =3.5 seconds a swing (210/60), 100 swings takes 350 seconds.
10% haste drops delay 21 points to 189 for 3.15 seconds a swing (189/60).
So, in 350 seconds with 10% haste with same base delay, you will swing 111 times (350/3.15=111.111...) for an 11.111...% increase in attack rounds.

[Leonlionheart]

SO in terms that the average player can understand:

Haste > all

stop being stupid and using 24% haste with perle hands/aurore hands when you can cap it with dusk.

[hiko]

SO in terms that the average player can understand:

Haste > all

stop being stupid and using 24% haste with perle hands/aurore hands when you can cap it with dusk.

i'll go further:
stop being stupid and using 25% showned haste with perle hands/aurore hands when you can true cap it with dusk. (haste gear value being a proximation from /1024 values you 're not really capped when you gear show 25)

[Arcon]

i'll go further:
stop being stupid and using 25% showned haste with perle hands/aurore hands when you can true cap it with dusk. (haste gear value being a proximation from /1024 values you 're not really capped when you gear show 25)

Depends on the gear actually. Some gear even gives more than it says due to rounding deviations.

[Sparthos]

SO in terms that the average player can understand:

Haste > all

stop being stupid and using 24% haste with perle hands/aurore hands when you can cap it with dusk.

I'll never fault someone for foregoing Dusk hands for the alternatives that don't decrease movement speed.

Sure, you can use certain processes to get around that problem but really if they're 1% off on Haste, I could care less.

[MarkovChain]

ITT, people min/maxing in abyssea. Just brew it.

[wish12oz]

ITT, people min/maxing in abyssea. Just brew it.

Leave it to the guy who full times full usukane on MNK to say improving your gear is pointless. lol

[Octaviane]

I would just like to thank the OP for some extremely helpful information. I am no math whiz, but you made it easy to understand. :)

[Babekeke]

I'm really sorry if this has already been posted, but I only just saw the thread and got as far as the first 8 pages of flaming Naturebeckles and gave up reading.

OP states 80% haste is the maximum delay for attack rounds, but does this include dual wield, or can you get 80% haste and then Dual Wield on top of that?

[Byrth]

I'm really sorry if this has already been posted, but I only just saw the thread and got as far as the first 8 pages of flaming Naturebeckles and gave up reading.

OP states 80% haste is the maximum delay for attack rounds, but does this include dual wield, or can you get 80% haste and then Dual Wield on top of that?

It is the total delay reduction cap, so it includes Dual Wield, Martial Arts, and gear with -Delay % on it.

[Babekeke]

It is the total delay reduction cap, so it includes Dual Wield, Martial Arts, and gear with -Delay % on it.

So if I have this right, according to the OP:

52.5% - 111 ---------- Gear + Haste + Victory March

+DW3 from nin sub = 77.5%
+Suppanomimi or Raider's Boomerang or other DW+3%+ gear = attack speed cap and no need for a 2nd march or haste samba?

That's quite interesting if it's the case, and useful to know when I play brd if I'm just with a thf, nin, dnc, mnk party.

[hiko]

So if I have this right, according to the OP:


+DW3 from nin sub = 77.5%
+Suppanomimi or Raider's Boomerang or other DW+3%+ gear = attack speed cap and no need for a 2nd march or haste samba?

That's quite interesting if it's the case, and useful to know when I play brd if I'm just with a thf, nin, dnc, mnk party.

no because haste and dual wield are not aditive but multiplicative

[MarkovChain]

Leave it to the guy who full times full usukane on MNK to say improving your gear is pointless. lol

Aren't you tired of throwing random and false claims on the forums. Seriously, you mad™. Min maxing in abyssea is really for losers. I can't think of a single normal mob that can survive 1 full Weapon skill which means any WS macro is useless. I'd say 99% of the time you save TP so as not to trigger "ruby" which as a consequence makes haste half as useful as what it should be, since haste no longer affects WS frequency like it should be. The "only" (though still great) benefit of haste is melee-dot-over-time and the lolz about killing a mobs 0.1 faster. Nevermind cleaves and brews where you gear is 100% useless. I forgot to add that 99% of the NMs you do are either done

* Turning your back until yellow is proced,
* Using gimp weapons to trigger red,
* Brewed in pack of 10 for reward/effort efficiency.

To make you rage a little more think about this : If a group A and group B try to build say FULL AF3+2 plus an empyrean, the fastest to get it will be the group that has the most movement speed. Mazurka > march. Discuss.

God I'm glad abyssea is over. Maybe we can use our macros now.

[Arcon]

no because haste and dual wield are not aditive but multiplicative

This. DW3 is 25% Dual Wield. The Calculations are as follows:

Delay multiplier = (1 - Dual Wield) * (1 - Haste) = (1 - 25%) * (1 - 52.5%) = 0.75*0.475 = 0.35625

This value is capped at 0.2 (which equals 80% Haste). So if you are dual wielding weapons with 400 combined delay (~6.7s between attack rounds, prior to any kind of reduction), you would have 400*0.35625 = 142.5 delay, after reduction has been applied (~2.4s between attack rounds).

Note that only (1 - Dual Wield) * Delay is the value that is used in TP calculation, Haste doesn't matter for that at all.

So... your base delay (weapon delay, or 480 + weapon delay in the case of hand-to-hand) is first reduced by Delay reduction gear or Dual Wield/Martial Arts. This value is used to calculate TP gain and Samba efficiency. Then Haste is applied, and the new value is used as your attack speed (delay/60 = time in seconds between attacks).

[Byrth]

No, Samba efficiency (assuming you meant HP drained per hit) is calculated after Haste is applied. Other Samba efficiency (Haste Samba) is just Haste.

[RaenRyong]

Aren't you tired of throwing random and false claims on the forums. Seriously, you mad™. Min maxing in abyssea is really for losers. I can't think of a single normal mob that can survive 1 full Weapon skill which means any WS macro is useless. I'd say 99% of the time you save TP so as not to trigger "ruby" which as a consequence makes haste half as useful as what it should be, since haste no longer affects WS frequency like it should be. The "only" (though still great) benefit of haste is melee-dot-over-time and the lolz about killing a mobs 0.1 faster. Nevermind cleaves and brews where you gear is 100% useless. I forgot to add that 99% of the NMs you do are either done

* Turning your back until yellow is proced,
* Using gimp weapons to trigger red,
* Brewed in pack of 10 for reward/effort efficiency.

To make you rage a little more think about this : If a group A and group B try to build say FULL AF3+2 plus an empyrean, the fastest to get it will be the group that has the most movement speed. Mazurka > march. Discuss.

God I'm glad abyssea is over. Maybe we can use our macros now.

So what was the point of min-maxing in Salvage again? As soon as you can clear it consistently (not hard), it is useless. Gear is 100% useless on cleaves? Yeah, cause Charged Whisker oneshots without gear...

Whatever you like to think, min-maxing still helps a great deal and saves a lot of time. FFXI as a game has never been remotely challenging enough to REQUIRE min-maxing... nostalgia goggles again.


To make you rage a little more think about this : If a group A and group B try to build say FULL AF3+2 plus an empyrean, the fastest to get it will be the group that has the most movement speed. Mazurka > march. Discuss.

That's funny, I would've thought the group that used March on fights and Mazurka in-between would do better.

[Arcon]

No, Samba efficiency (assuming you meant HP drained per hit) is calculated after Haste is applied. Other Samba efficiency (Haste Samba) is just Haste.

I just read the discussion on the wiki page, apparently you're right. Find that weird, I was quite confident it was unaffected by it. I don't even know where I got that from, but I'll test it myself again just to be sure.

[Byrth]

I've replicated their results, if you want to save some time. I'm not sure their formula is exact, but it's a pretty close approximation.

[Babekeke]

melee-dot-over-time

I hate to be pedantic (ok so I don't), but learn what D.O.T stands for!


So... your base delay is first reduced by Delay reduction gear or Dual Wield/Martial Arts. This value is used to calculate TP gain. Then Haste is applied, and the new value is used as your attack speed (delay/60 = time in seconds between attacks).

So using this formula, can a 2H user (aside from drk during last resort) reach the 80%?

(1-[10% Hasso + 3% Sword Grip])*(1 - 76.5 haste) = 0.20445

OK, it's close, but not quite there. Bolter's roll would need to be added with anything but a 9 (unlucky roll) for 2%+.

I don't see any other weapon delay gear on wiki, but there is probably some that isn't linked to the delay page. Not sure if SAM gets any bonus to hasso for extra weapon delay-, but I'm mainly interested for my WAR anyway.

[Arcon]

I've replicated their results, if you want to save some time. I'm not sure their formula is exact, but it's a pretty close approximation.

That's good enough for me then. And yes, the exact amount isn't really relevant, was just not sure if Haste/Slow affect it at all, which, apparently, it does.

[hiko]

I hate to be pedantic (ok so I don't), but learn what D.O.T stands for!



So using this formula, can a 2H user (aside from drk during last resort) reach the 80%?

(1-[10% Hasso + 3% Sword Grip])*(1 - 76.5 haste) = 0.20445

OK, it's close, but not quite there. Bolter's roll would need to be added with anything but a 9 (unlucky roll) for 2%+.

I don't see any other weapon delay gear on wiki, but there is probably some that isn't linked to the delay page. Not sure if SAM gets any bonus to hasso for extra weapon delay-, but I'm mainly interested for my WAR anyway.


hasso is ja haste it is not DR (hasso doesn't affect tp/hit)

and can still add blitzer roll for more DR

[wish12oz]

can a 2H user (aside from drk during last resort) reach the 80%?

March +4 (march+3 instrument, and af3+2 hands) is 15.5% and 12.5% basically, +25% gear haste, 15% spell, 10% hasso leaves you at 78% saddly =|
Depending on how sword strap works, you may be able to cap delay reduction using it, but there's never been any testing done to show if it stacks with haste or works like dual wield and would give you 3% off your new delay after haste is worked out.

Personally, I dunno which is true, I never even thought about it until recently, I always just assumed it stacked with haste until someone tried to say it didn't, but even then, no one has tested it, so no one can say.

[Frost]

March +4 (march+3 instrument, and af3+2 hands) is 15.5% and 12.5% basically, +25% gear haste, 15% spell, 10% hasso leaves you at 78% saddly =|
Depending on how sword strap works, you may be able to cap delay reduction using it, but there's never been any testing done to show if it stacks with haste or works like dual wield and would give you 3% off your new delay after haste is worked out.

Personally, I dunno which is true, I never even thought about it until recently, I always just assumed it stacked with haste until someone tried to say it didn't, but even then, no one has tested it, so no one can say.

Could add Haste Samba no?

[Byrth]

Iirc, there has been testing done with Sword Strap and it doesn't add to Haste. It's a 3% reduction to the base delay of your 2H weapon, like Dual Wield reduces the delay of your 1H weapon. Haste reduces that further.

And yeah, even /DNC Haste Samba caps 2H delay.

[wish12oz]

Iirc, there has been testing done with Sword Strap and it doesn't add to Haste. It's a 3% reduction to the base delay of your 2H weapon, like Dual Wield reduces the delay of your 1H weapon. Haste reduces that further.

And yeah, even /DNC Haste Samba caps 2H delay.

Where/when and please link me if I didnt already say it.

[Byrth]

Where/when and please link me if I didnt already say it.

Somewhere in the "pleasantly searchable" bowels of BG, pretty much at the time of release. If I was a betting man, my money would be that Kirschy at least assisted with the test in some way, if she didn't do it herself. Good luck finding it, but that's how it works.

If you want to test it yourself, I'd recommend using Drain Samba II as an indicator of your total delay. Put yourself on a break point so 3% Haste would reduce your max HP Drained, but -3% Delay would not. Do a control with the delay in question, put on the Grip, see what happens! I guess I should put the disclaimer that I'm somewhat Dancer-centric, but this seems like the easiest way to me.

[hiko]

sword strap affect TP/hit, no need to test further

[Wenslydale]

sword strap affect TP/hit, no need to test further

This is only a problem if you don't account for it in your x-hit build.

[hiko]

This is only a problem if you don't account for it in your x-hit build.
never said it was a problem, just replyed on discussion if it adds to haste or DR

[MarkovChain]

I hate to be pedantic (ok so I don't), but learn what D.O.T stands for!

Dot is damage over time baby



So using this formula, can a 2H user (aside from drk during last resort) reach the 80%?
(1-[10% Hasso + 3% Sword Grip])*(1 - 76.5 haste) = 0.20445


facepalm

[Greatguardian]

Dot is damage over time baby

That's the point. You said DoT over time. Unless you're referring to the derivative of DoT, you were being redundant.

[Babekeke]

That's the point. You said DoT over time. Unless you're referring to the derivative of DoT, you were being redundant.

Precisely^^

[wish12oz]

facepalm

Fun idea, instead of replying and offering nothing and just trying to put people down, why don't you try being useful, and correct the errors you see. Or is that to hard for you? Or are you just afraid you'll get told how wrong you are, again, like every other time you do it.

[Monchat]

Fun idea, instead of replying and offering nothing and just trying to put people down, why don't you try being useful, and correct the errors you see. Or is that to hard for you? Or are you just afraid you'll get told how wrong you are, again, like every other time you do it.

How about you correct it yourself, since you troll in every page of this thread, I think you could do it? Or maybe you just have no idea what youre talking about? hint: read the wiki, very well explained over there.


The OP should be modified and include two facts:

- 50% haste is not 2x damage, 80% haste is not 5x damage. Why? because there is a (huge) delay after every job ability and weapon skills you use ( 2seconds+); this is not modified by haste, and your idle time is all the more important that you have high haste. 2 second delay when you take 8 second to get 100 TP ( SAM) means you're idle 20% of the time for example.


- a very important part of multihits from double/triple/etc attacks does not contribute to WS frequency. 80% DA would be +80% melee dmg but certainly not +80% WS damage. more like 60%.

[Alukat]

The chart actually says if you go from 20% haste to 25% haste you gain 8.33% damage.
+8% DA is only an 8% damage increase if you have 0% DA to begin with, since DA has diminishing returns the more of it you have. And even if you had 0% DA to begin with, 8.33% is bigger then 8%.


Haste value-----------Increase in attack rounds
20%------------------- 25.00%
25%------------------- 33.33%

33.33-25=8.33

based on 100 hits
20% haste will give u 25% increase in rounds (that are basically 25 more hits), combining with 8% DA u'll get +8 hits from the first 100 delays + 2 additional hits of the 25 additional haste hits.
and 25 + 8 + 2 = 35. and 35 > 33,33

Edit: u just forgot to calculate the DA for the additional haste hits.

[Arcon]

The OP should be modified and include two facts:

- 50% haste is not 2x damage, 80% haste is not 5x damage. Why? because there is a (huge) delay after every job ability and weapon skills you use ( 2seconds+); this is not modified by haste, and your idle time is all the more important that you have high haste. 2 second delay when you take 8 second to get 100 TP ( SAM) means you're idle 20% of the time for example.

Up to 2x damage. Up to 5x damage. That's like saying "Haste doesn't even give you 1% extra damage if you're not facing the enemy!"

Edit:
WS damage in itself has to be regarded seperately, because you would swap gear for that. But you're right that WS frequency isn't increased as much as people sometimes make it out to be, since you can overshoot the 100% TP mark sometimes (obviously same with Triple Attack and OAX weapons).

[Greatguardian]

Swapping gear is precisely why you can regard WS damage with Haste. TP'ing in Haste does not affect your Per-WS damage at all, specifically because you always WS in WS gear no matter what. Getting 100TP twice as fast is then directly equivalent to doubling WS damage.

[MarkovChain]

That's the point. You said DoT over time. Unless you're referring to the derivative of DoT, you were being redundant.


melee dot = melee damage over time, seriously troll less lolz.


Swapping gear is precisely why you can regard WS damage with Haste. TP'ing in Haste does not affect your Per-WS damage at all, specifically because you always WS in WS gear no matter what. Getting 100TP twice as fast is then directly equivalent to doubling WS damage.

No you never WS is WS gear in abyssea (because it's useless), which is precisely what I was discussing. Every normal mob is 99% likely to be one shotted . Getting 100 TP is NOT equivalent to doubling WS damage because you precisely don't want to kill as fast as possible and you don't want to do the killshot with the ws.

[Greatguardian]

Christ. Stick to the French forums or something, you really have absolutely no reading comprehension.

[hiko]

melee dot = melee damage over time, seriously troll less lolz.


mele DoT over time

So mele damage over time over time?

[wish12oz]

How about you correct it yourself, since you troll in every page of this thread, I think you could do it? Or maybe you just have no idea what youre talking about? hint: read the wiki, very well explained over there.


It was already corrected or I would of done it, maybe you should try reading the thread instead of making sock puppet accounts pchan.


So mele damage over time over time?

lol


(sword strap testing is) Somewhere on BG (maybe i think i saw it this one time over there in that place you know the one ya there with that thing by that guy who said it and was right and stuff)

My searching didn't find it, maybe you could post a link? Or just say it hasn't been tested, either way.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm fairly certain I've read it, but I can't tell you where, but I'm pretty sure it's straight -delay. Maybe an old RQT thread? it's hazy but pretty sure it was in the old advanced.

[Byrth]

There's no way in hell I'm digging that out of the last two years worth of threads. I gave you all the guidance that I have for it and told you how to test it if you actually care. Now the ball is in your court.

PS. No form of delay reduction (which reduces TP) stacks additively with Haste.

[Alukat]

Edit:
WS damage in itself has to be regarded seperately, because you would swap gear for that. But you're right that WS frequency isn't increased as much as people sometimes make it out to be, since you can overshoot the 100% TP mark sometimes (obviously same with Triple Attack and OAX weapons).

yup, but overshooting the 100%tp gives a little increase in ftp.

on rudra's storm:

ftp 100%: 3.25
ftp 200%: 4.25
ftp 300%: 5.25

ftp 115%:

f100 + 0.15 * (f200 - f100)
3.25 + 0.15 * (4.25 - 3.25)
3.25 + 0.15 * 1
3.25 + 0.15
3.4

so your ws does more dmg.

Edit: u want to get 100% tp fast as possible and u want to overshoot it far as possible, except 100% tp has same effect as 200%tp

[Tagrineth]

Uh... pretty sure ftp doesn't scale linearly for weapon skills. 100% tp WS = 199% tp WS.

[Byrth]

Uh... pretty sure ftp doesn't scale linearly for weapon skills. 100% tp WS = 199% tp WS.

Nope, you're wrong.

+25 TP Bonus on Rudra's is +.25 fTP

[Tagrineth]

Nope, you're wrong.

+25 TP Bonus on Rudra's is +.25 fTP

Well, that's interesting. I remember sites and people claiming otherwise back in the day.

[Arcon]

Well, that's interesting. I remember sites and people claiming otherwise back in the day.

To my knowledge, all WS scale fTP continuously.

[Leonlionheart]

melee dot = melee damage over time, seriously troll less lolz.



No you never WS is WS gear in abyssea (because it's useless), which is precisely what I was discussing. Every normal mob is 99% likely to be one shotted . Getting 100 TP is NOT equivalent to doubling WS damage because you precisely don't want to kill as fast as possible and you don't want to do the killshot with the ws.

What.

Because no one really wants ruby and because the only thing anyone ever fights is mobs with 5k HP.

Seriously, giant f***ing failure.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Stop getting ruby lights gaiz, we'll never get TE like that

[Zumi]

It's always the bad slow exp parties where the leader keeps complaining about ruby lights.

When well people realize that ruby lights don't really matter and in fact increase your exp.

[Leonlionheart]

I don't know what this animation delay you guys are talking about is, I've gear swapped out of it before and had 100% TP before Ukko's Fury was finished taking forever.

[wish12oz]

I don't know what this animation delay you guys are talking about is, I've gear swapped out of it before and had 100% TP before Ukko's Fury was finished taking forever.

When you use any JA or WS, theres 1-2 second delay that interrupts attack rounds where you cant do anything but use another ja/cast a spell.

So like, if you use a 5 hit and take 10 seconds to get 100 tp, it takes you 12 seconds to get 100tp and ws and then start to get tp again. So the round is 12 seconds, not 10, and that inherently lowers the effectiveness of haste. And while this arguement is true, its also very stupid and not worth considering at all, unless you have capped haste.

I think thats what we're talking about anyway, I'm kind of out of it today, I think I might be sick, so I'm hoping this is even understandable honestly lol.

[Greatguardian]

When you use any JA or WS, theres 1-2 second delay that interrupts attack rounds where you cant do anything but use another ja/cast a spell.

So like, if you use a 5 hit and take 10 seconds to get 100 tp, it takes you 12 seconds to get 100tp and ws and then start to get tp again. So the round is 12 seconds, not 10, and that inherently lowers the effectiveness of haste. And while this arguement is true, its also very stupid and not worth considering at all, unless you have capped haste.

I think thats what we're talking about anyway, I'm kind of out of it today, I think I might be sick, so I'm hoping this is even understandable honestly lol.

That's correct. Action delay can be minimized to a degree, since initial actions take 120 delay (slightly over 2s), and all subsequent actions that you "Chain" onto the first action take 60 delay (~1s). But at very low weapon delay numbers, action delay will marginally decrease the value of haste the more you WS/JA.

[Leonlionheart]

That's correct. Action delay can be minimized to a degree, since initial actions take 120 delay (slightly over 2s), and all subsequent actions that you "Chain" onto the first action take 60 delay (~1s). But at very low weapon delay numbers, action delay will marginally decrease the value of haste the more you WS/JA.

This is what I'm seeing then since I usually warrior's charge or meditate after Ukko's

[Tagrineth]

haste does take a while to proc

[RAIST]

That delay is constant regardless of what gear you have on, so in that narrow time frame all setups are equal--but after that first hit with haste gear back on, each hit until you swap and WS is reduced. So you can't just summarily dismiss it like that. It DOES increase your DoT ratio on a more progressive scale for each % added in comparison.

[Leonlionheart]

That delay is constant regardless of what gear you have on, so in that narrow time frame all setups are equal--but after that first hit with haste gear back on, each hit until you swap and WS is reduced. So you can't just summarily dismiss it like that. It DOES increase your DoT ratio on a more progressive scale for each % added in comparison.

Well I'll parse anyone who disagrees that you should have separate TP (stacked with maximum haste) and WS sets.

I use a Blitz Ring.

[Gokku]

necro bumping this so it stays fresh

[Leonlionheart]

Can we petition this to be stickied?

[Gokku]

Bump of Sticky please

[Vold]

Bump of Sticky please
Stop eff'n bumping dead threads. People who have sense already use haste. People that don't care DO NOT care. Let this die already.

[Gokku]

the thread has 33000+ views people use it , its good info if anything should be bumped it should be this thread

[Karbuncle]

I think this thread frankly should not die.

Even if we manage to make only 1 person a day see this thread and go "Now i understand why haste is important!" Then we've accomplished something amidst the idiocy and bickering.

Theres nothing more we can ask.

[SpankWustler]

Then we've accomplished something amidst the idiocy and bickering.

As a B-list super-villain whose goal is to cause idiocy and bickering, this saddens me.

It saddens me more that I put my spandex body suit on backwards this morning, so my terrifying alias "Mind Melter" is hidden by my polka-dotted cape and the seat is riding up in ways viler than my most insidious plot.

Putting your pants on the right way is almost as important as wearing pants with Haste on them during your TP phase!

[Eric]

I love haste. I have some with my breakfast. I use it while studying, showering, and talking on the phone. Sometimes I even put it into my mixed drinks. If I'm feeling really adventurous I use it when I go to parties.

Haste is amazing. It's completely changed my life.

[Soranika]

I'm confused.... Maybe cause I've played games in the FF franchise for years to know that Haste = awesome so I never under rate it, but I don't get how some would actually think that haste gave a damage bonus.

[SpankWustler]

I'm confused.... Maybe cause I've played games in the FF franchise for years to know that Haste = awesome so I never under rate it, but I don't get how some would actually think that haste gave a damage bonus.

You maybe have misread something, so I'll summarize in clearer language:

Attacking at twice the normal rate (this happens at 50% Haste) results in twice as much damage. You can weapon skill twice as frequently as well.

Attacking at five times the normal rate (this happens at 80% Haste) results in five times as much damage. You can weapon skill five times as frequently as well.

As you can see, the increase is not linear. Because of how the equation works, Haste becomes significantly more awesome as the value increases.

Even though it's difficult to eyeball the effect of small amounts of Haste, since it has no effect on the damage of each individual hit, it is often the most helpful buff for any brave soul hitting a thing with a thing.

Little Red Riding Hood and the Big Bad Wolf lived happily ever after, even though some old dude on FOX News called their marriage an abomination.


~THE END~

[Arcon]

Because of how the equation works, Haste becomes exponentially more awesome as the value increases.

While the correct increase of awesomeness is hard to measure qualitatively, I just wanna clarify that haste does not increase the damage output exponentially. The increase is larger than exponential. People have a tendency to say "exponentially" whenever the increase is pretty massive and adds up, but it's not quite correct. Exponential functions approach infinity if the input values approach infinity. This, however, approaches infinity for a certain input value. So it's actually a hyperbolic function, 1/(1-x) to be precise (notice the lack of exponentiation), with input values -1 to 0.8 (Slow caps at 100% (= -1), Haste caps at 80% (= 0.8)). The result is the percentage of the original speed. Here's examples:

100% Slow: 1/(1-(-1.00)) = 50.0%
70% Slow : 1/(1-( -0.70)) = 58.8%
25% Haste: 1/(1-(+0.25)) = 133.3%
50% Haste: 1/(1-(+0.50)) = 200.0%
70% Haste: 1/(1-(+0.70)) = 333.3%
80% Haste: 1/(1-(+0.80)) = 500.0%
90% Haste: 1/(1-(+0.90)) = 1000.0%
99% Haste: 1/(1-(+0.99)) = 10000.0%

Meanning at 99% Haste, you would do 100 hits in the time it would normally take you to do 1 hit. But as I said, Haste caps at 80%, so 5 times the amount of hits is the best we can do.

Another thing that annoys me at times is the misconception that you need 26% Haste to cap it. That's wrong, you need exactly 25% Haste to cap, and not one bit more. The issue is, that not every piece of gear gives the value it displays, and it's usually less. That's because of rounding errors, since Haste only works with fractions of 1024. So the closest approximation of 5% Haste would be 51/1024. That is, however, just 4.98% Haste. This is still relatively harmless, but some items diverge a lot from the original value (for reasons only known to SE, and quite probably not even to them). So often you need more than "25%" Haste on item descriptions, to actually reach the cap of 25% (256/1024). Just a technicality but still annoying when people brag about their Haste-knowledge and get it wrong.

[Gokku]

most people in 26 % haste do it because that 1% haste is better then assuming or testing every piece of gear your wearing to assure its giving you the exact correct amount of haste when you can stick 1% over and be 100% sure.

[SpankWustler]

Good catch. I didn't mean "exponentially" in the literal sense, since it didn't occur to me I was talking about a math equation even without using any numbers. I guess I should edit the post.

[MarkovChain]

most people in 26 % haste do it because that 1% haste is better then assuming or testing every piece of gear your wearing to assure its giving you the exact correct amount of haste when you can stick 1% over and be 100% sure.

Most people talking about 26 % haste don't know their subject. The vast majority of the gear are better than the last 1% because it's not 1%. Best case scenario, it is 0.5%.

[Gokku]

if it was .5 off its a 2% damage difference

25 *capped* = 133%
24.5 = 131%

so its a matter of gear choices i dont think the 7 str /4 attack is going to add an extra 2% to my damage i KNOW the 1% haste will.

[Leonlionheart]

Most people talking about 26 % haste don't know their subject. The vast majority of the gear are better than the last 1% because it's not 1%. Best case scenario, it is 0.5%.

Most cases where you're capping haste at 26% is where you're using a Blitz Ring. Most other jobs it's a clear advantage to be using other gear.

The only argument where gear would be better than 26% is when your a non-black belt MNK, using brown belt trying to fit enough haste in to TP w/ +2 feet (requiring Tiercel Necklace). I think +2 feet is the only piece of gear that will increase your DPS more than that .x% haste. However losing 1.x% haste is not worth it as far as I'm aware.

[Rayik]

Sorry I'm late to the party, just started looking around the forums and found this thread. Since Abyssea came out, even my casual-player style has been able to get my hands on some nice haste gear for my jobs, and the difference is incredible. When I first started playing this game, I thought haste was overrated(mostly because I didn't have any). Now that I've got some of my melee jobs to 26% haste, I can see it firsthand and wow, what a difference.

[MarkovChain]

Most cases where you're capping haste at 26% is where you're using a Blitz Ring. Most other jobs it's a clear advantage to be using other gear.

The only argument where gear would be better than 26% is when your a non-black belt MNK, using brown belt trying to fit enough haste in to TP w/ +2 feet (requiring Tiercel Necklace). I think +2 feet is the only piece of gear that will increase your DPS more than that .x% haste. However losing 1.x% haste is not worth it as far as I'm aware.


Usukane sune-ate beats the crap out of fuma.

[Ravenmore]

On my blu i'm at 26% haste but can't change out gear with out going below 25% that would be better then just macroing it in i.e homam pants. If you at 25% no only retards will look down on you.

[Cursed]

I actually debated on whether or not to put it at 25% or 26% because technically the cap IS 25%

The haste on gear that add up to that are not all accurately displayed. (As you stated)

The discrepancy is in the gear, not the cap.

Edit:
Btw thank you all for the input, I read this over like 30 times and fact checked my math and stuff.. But it's hard to get everything. I appreciate it.


Thanks for the useful post. Bookmarked.

[Karbuncle]

Sorry I'm late to the party, just started looking around the forums and found this thread. Since Abyssea came out, even my casual-player style has been able to get my hands on some nice haste gear for my jobs, and the difference is incredible. When I first started playing this game, I thought haste was overrated(mostly because I didn't have any). Now that I've got some of my melee jobs to 26% haste, I can see it firsthand and wow, what a difference.

I hope you're being serious!

Cause thats exactly what we want to hear here ^^

[Leonlionheart]

Usukane sune-ate beats the crap out of fuma.

herp derp only when it caps haste

[Melraen]

Wow... While I knew Haste was good, I didn't actually realise how much of an effect it had! I remember reading up on the Haste caps in my later levels of Bard, but I didn't really look into it much more. Thanks so much Frost for such an informative thread!
I'm actually motivated to seek out a few more pieces of Haste gear for my Dragoon now! I think I have about 13% or so. >.>; I also noticed someone mentioned only equipping a few pieces of the Perle set when you didn't have other means to get more Haste was stupid, and that's kinda what I've been doing... /blush I feel so silly now. ^^;

[Mirage]

Wow... While I knew Haste was good, I didn't actually realise how much of an effect it had! I remember reading up on the Haste caps in my later levels of Bard, but I didn't really look into it much more. Thanks so much Frost for such an informative thread!
I'm actually motivated to seek out a few more pieces of Haste gear for my Dragoon now! I think I have about 13% or so. >.>; I also noticed someone mentioned only equipping a few pieces of the Perle set when you didn't have other means to get more Haste was stupid, and that's kinda what I've been doing... /blush I feel so silly now. ^^;

Swift belt + full perle should put you at 18% right off the bat, so that's a good place to start I guess. Change from Swift belt to Bullwhip belt and you're at 21% already. Until you can get more than 14% haste in your 5 visible armor slots, you should probably just TP in full perle, yeah. It might make you look a bit noobish, but everyone's got to start somewhere, right?

[Zerich]

Please rename this post to "How to feed TP: For Great Justice".

[Karbuncle]

not sure if troll

[Arcon]

not sure if troll

I vote sarcasm.

[Zerich]

I vote sarcasm.

sarcasm indeed
i agree with most of this thread, just wanted to add a little jab of venom into the mix.

[JiltedValkyrie]

This thread needs a bump. There are too many new/returning players who must read this.

[Washburn]

most people in 26 % haste do it because that 1% haste is better then assuming or testing every piece of gear your wearing to assure its giving you the exact correct amount of haste when you can stick 1% over and be 100% sure.

I'll re-test it tomorrow, but i did testing on drk with newer gear v/s older gear and things like speed belt, wahlara turban, dusk gloves all gave the 60/1024, 50/1024, and 30/1024. All of the af3 i tested, such as bale hands +2, was comong out to actually have 5.11111111% haste. They all added together, but were rounded down to the nearest percent, and no combination of newer gear would go over 26%. So even if you got 25.666666%, it was rounded down to 25%. If someone else wants to check it today, go for it, but I can't log in til tomorrow.

[Frost]

I really should go back to start on this and update the original post. Include Embrava, Desparate Blows, etc.

A lot has changed in the time I wrote this.

[Babekeke]

In the Thief forums there was a discussion (somewhere) that using a 23% haste setup that adds more STR, Att, DA/TA, actually beats any other setup that caps haste (this was before Neo Nyzul, mind).

That setup was:

Empy+2 head, body, hands, legs and relic +2 feet, used with Twilight belt.

I assume that now, Phos +1 belt would beat Twilight, though you'd lose 2% DA for 1% haste.

[Arcon]

It always depends on your total Haste. If you're solo, Haste isn't nearly as important as in group situations, because of more outside Haste sources. Sometimes a certain set will actually beat full Haste alternatives. For example, in his opening post Frost answers the question whether Double Attack is better than Haste with a strong "No". Saying that Double Attack is worse than Haste is an incorrect statement all by itself, the correct phrasing would be "Double Attack is worse than the equal amount of Haste, assuming Haste isn't capped, you don't have negative Haste and there are no other bonuses that enhance your Double Attack". I understand that's a bit of a mouthful, but if you want to go into details, that's what you need to consider. For example, when you're weakened, no amount of Haste will be better than Double Attack. Double Attack +x% (assuming you have 0 before) will always increase your damage output by at least x%. Haste +x% will only do more than that if a) Haste isn't negative (Slow/Elegy, Weakness, Gear, etc.) and Haste is less than x% away from the cap.

Also, Haste on one item doesn't mean much all by itself. More Haste in one item is good, because you can reduce Haste in another slot to make room for other improvements. Take the Phos Belt +1 you mentioned (out of context, in general), it's exactly the opposite: it negates other benefits (the Double Attack +2% from Twilight Belt) to increase total Haste, which can then be offset by another item. Unless that other item offers more than Double Attack +2%, that's not worth it at all.

I currently possess four items with higher Haste than what I use in my TP set on THF for the respective slots. It always depends on the rest of the set as well. Multi-attacks, critical hit rate, critical hit damage, STR, Attack and Store TP can all influence the Haste gear choices. It's rarely as simple as saying Haste beats everything else. That's why I like to say that Haste is both the most underrated and most overrated stat.

[Babekeke]

I currently possess four items with higher Haste than what I use in my TP set on THF for the respective slots.

Similar story here. Haste is incredibly easy to cap on THF, and is obviously a must for utsu macros.

But for TP I drop to 23% visible haste with 12 triple attack and 13 double attack (before traits/merits) leading to 23 of each when /war. My gear (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/113192) isn't perfect either, I need a new earring to replace hollow, a new neck probably, and a new main hand (obviously I main Lux and sub triplus but couldn't get ffxiah to show it that way around).