View Full Version : Increase the base Guard proc rate
Denabond
03-14-2011, 09:50 AM
Guard, in its current form, is one the most useless defensive skill in the game. Even at capped skill, it rarely procs. While I can understand why parry has a low proc rate since it nullifies the attack, the amount of damage reduced when you guard isn't enough where it should proc once every 4-5 fights (even more for when it isn't capped). I'm not asking to make it so I guard all the time, but making it so it procs 10-15% of the time at capped skill isn't too much to ask right?
SheKicksHigh
03-14-2011, 09:59 AM
this post makes me believe you are severely under the cap and have no clue what capped gaurd proc rate is like
Neisan_Quetz
03-14-2011, 10:00 AM
Except he's not because guard and parry have the same proc rate of 5% with or without skill?
SheKicksHigh
03-14-2011, 10:11 AM
Except he's not because guard and parry have the same proc rate of 5% with or without skill?
wut?
ten ten ten
Denabond
03-14-2011, 10:13 AM
On basically all FFXI forums I've been on the general consensus is Guard is useless. There are plenty of tests out there proving it. And ill admit that my guard skill isn't capped, but its reasonably high enough where it should proc maybe once every 10-20 hits, not once every 100.
Neisan_Quetz
03-14-2011, 10:16 AM
It's a proven fact parry and guard skill do absolutely nothing to the proc rate on mobs that matter. Even with capped skill + why did you merit this skill, they still won't proc more than 5% of the time.
JagerForrester
03-14-2011, 10:16 AM
Last I checked, my Parry was around 286, and it maxes at 310 for DRG at 90. I do wish evasion wasn't so relied on in terms of defensive skills. We should be able to use all the defensive skills better than we currently do, this includes Guard.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 10:16 AM
this post makes me believe you are severely under the cap and have no clue what capped gaurd proc rate is like
It depends on what you're fighting. If you're fighting anything under Even Match, the proc rate is pretty good, but those mobs hit so weak, and your evasion is pretty good on them, that the procs are pretty unnecessary.
On the mobs where it actually matters, T+, capped guard or not, the only way to get a decent guard rate is to whore as much guard+ as you can in every slot, which is just counter productive. PDT for example is better than guard. So instead of putting on the guard+ head piece, you'd use arhat's.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 10:17 AM
It's a proven fact parry and guard skill do absolutely nothing to the proc rate. Even with capped skill + why did you merit this skill, they still won't proc more than 5% of the time.
This is absolutely wrong, lol.
You can get off the floor, it just takes a lot of guard+ in a lot of slots to do it. So much, that it's not worthwhile, so people don't.
Neisan_Quetz
03-14-2011, 10:19 AM
For guard I'll concede, haven't seen much on it, for parry everything I've seen and tested suggests skill doesn't even matter and is superfluous.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 10:24 AM
I personally don't have parry leveled, but I highly doubt it, as shield, evasion, and guard all increase the rate.
Again, to really see a diff, you have to whore the guard in virtually every slot.
Try this, I've always believed it was compared to the mob's combat skill (which is why it's easier to get a decent rate on lower end mobs).
If your parry is capped, gear parry and go try it out on some lower level mobs.
Superchicken
03-14-2011, 10:24 AM
i think the problem lies where the parry and guard proc. They are the last thing to have a chance to proc are they not? Your evasion and everything else has to be passed before you will guard or parry, but at least SE said they are gonna increase the skill up rate for guard and parry right! /clap /hurray *cough* this should have been done years ago
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 10:26 AM
Parry procs after evasion, before utsu.
For guard.
Evasion > Shadow > counter > guard > hit.
As far as that being the problem, it's not.
When i say 5% guard rate, I mean 5% of the attacks get past evasion, shadow, and counter and only consider the guard vs hit options.
Neisan_Quetz
03-14-2011, 10:26 AM
Meant for anything T+ it seems to be the same as guard then, even with capped skill you're pretty much floored. if it wasn't for extenuating circumstances I'd go back to testing EM and lower but for anything higher there was no difference.
Denabond
03-14-2011, 10:28 AM
i think the problem lies where the parry and guard proc. They are the last thing to have a chance to proc are they not? Your evasion and everything else has to be passed before you will guard or parry, but at least SE said they are gonna increase the skill up rate for guard and parry right! /clap /hurray *cough* this should have been done years ago
Parry checks after evasion, but before it eats a shadow. That's why Nin's can parry with shadows up. Guard is after Evasion, shadows, and counter. So yeah basically after everything else.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 10:30 AM
Meant for anything T+ it seems to be the same as guard then, even with capped skill you're pretty much floored. if it wasn't for extenuating circumstances I'd go back to testing EM and lower but for EM+ I hadn't seen a difference.
Skill still makes a diff, just you need a lot of it.
Keep in mind, going by my theory it's your skill vs their skill.
Guard and parry are already A- on mnk and nin vs the A+ skill of a lot of T+ mobs.
A+ is getting what? 6 skills per level now? and a T mob is up to 4 lvs higher than you.
So if your parry is capped at 90, you have 354 parry skill vs up to 385 weapon skill of lv 94 mob.
Superchicken
03-14-2011, 10:38 AM
Parry procs after evasion, before utsu.
For guard.
Evasion > Shadow > counter > guard > hit.
As far as that being the problem, it's not.
When i say 5% guard rate, I mean 5% of the attacks get past evasion, shadow, and counter and only consider the guard vs hit options.
let me rephrase it, didnt mean it as a problem just saying other thigns have to get bypassed before the gaurd proc is even considered so of course its gonna have a low proc rate was what i was getting at. I don't see a problem with guard how it is, the only thing that is meh is the skill up rate imo. Seems like people want to be guarding half the time and what not, and people want the game to become easier and easier and more like WoW the longer the game stays in existance.
"Hey i cant claim this NM, make it instanced, or hey the crafters are monopolizing the market on x item make it so i can buy it from an NPC" How bout we just have SE give everyone everything in the game they want while we are at it.
People are forgetting more and more this game is a time sink and it takes time to get stuff done, acquire things you want etc.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 10:41 AM
let me rephrase it, didnt mean it as a problem just saying other thigns have to get bypassed before the gaurd proc is even considered so of course its gonna have a low proc rate was what i was getting at.
I understood exactly what you said.
My answer still stays the same.
out of the number of hits TAKEN, the guard % rate is at a base of 5%.
That means only including the times you get hit (and not even looking at or counting evades, shadows, or counters in the comparison).
Musahashi
03-14-2011, 11:10 AM
If your getting hit by T+ mobs or any kind of XP mob, and you think it sucks, manage your hate better, and if your meant to be tanking because of your high HP, then get some decent defense and guard gear. MNK is a DD, it's only meant to take hits when you accidentally take hate from a 2.4K TK, or when you solo. Thats when guard and your masses of HP help to keep you alive, not to make you able to solo/tank a T+ mob.
Remember, every DD in FFXI is the same, kill the mob before it kills you. If your finding yourself dying, your aiming too high^^
And the as for the proc rate, at EM it should proc enough to keep you alive, that is all. Don't go expecting to solo T+/VT mobs just because gaurd skill is capped.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 11:21 AM
MNK is a DD, it's only meant to take hits when you accidentally take hate from a 2.4K TK
A) Mnk is pretty much the go to tank in this game at the moment and has been a good tank for years.
B) 2.4k by today's standards is nowhere even close to an impressive number for a WS, so I'm not sure why you picked that number.
Neisan_Quetz
03-14-2011, 11:23 AM
He said TK, and that probably is decent for Tornado Kick... from what I've seen of it anyway. Not that anyone I know outside of exp pts seriously uses that WS, and I can say a lot about Mnks in exp pts that probably breaks the terms of this forum.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 11:25 AM
I know what TK stands for. That's a great number for TK, which is why I said WS.
If Tornado kick is the best you have walking into a party, I wouldn't even expect you to pull hate, if you're partying w/ anyone who has razed ruins and a decent crit ws (doesn't even have to be empy; raging rush, evisc, blade: jin, drakesbane etc.), provided said person doesn't suck.
Neisan_Quetz
03-14-2011, 11:30 AM
He can pull hate after the top DD is resting from dying from pulling too much hate and having bad healers (had this happen way too much and I didn't even have RR yet, just Sang scythe.. it's seriously that bad in pickups).
Captain
03-14-2011, 11:30 AM
isn't too much to ask right?
If they plan on making mnk into a proper tanking type job, then no it isn't too much to ask for, if the game continues to revolve around abyssea though, then mnk needs nothing and poor pld will continue to be useless in comparison to mnk which isn't very fair on a job which was made to tank. And i'm sure there are a lot of plds who are rather butthurt about that lol~
Musahashi
03-14-2011, 12:12 PM
A) Mnk is pretty much the go to tank in this game at the moment and has been a good tank for years.
B) 2.4k by today's standards is nowhere even close to an impressive number for a WS, so I'm not sure why you picked that number.
You need to take some time out of abyssea for a while, most of you do. If your looking for damage values against mobs in the older FFXI areas, you'll find 2.4K WS's tend to draw alot of attention, TK was just an example, it could of been your favourite WS if you like.
In abyssea, everything actually sucks pretty badly, I've never liked abyssea for a few reasons.
1) People who can solo T's in abyssea, might not be able to solo T's in older areas.
2) People think, because they have 4,000 HP, your now an proper tank job...
3) People level monk up, expecting to repeat what all the other monks did in older areas, inside abyssea, well kids, thats not that hard.
So in short, in abyssea, you can do anything no matter how good you are or claim to be, the real test is out in the older, forgotten areas of FFXI.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 12:14 PM
2) People think, because they have 4,000 HP, your now an proper tank job...
Monk has for a very long time been a very capable tank outside of abyssea, before 4k hp was the norm.
Superchicken
03-14-2011, 12:20 PM
So in short, in abyssea, you can do anything no matter how good you are or claim to be, the real test is out in the older, forgotten areas of FFXI.
what is their outside of abyssea thats even really worth it at this current stage in the game?
Musahashi
03-14-2011, 12:25 PM
The 1 difference between an actual tank job is that whm's don't have to spend all their energy on 1 player if you have a real tank.
Monk is not a tank, get over it. Monk is, and always will be a DD job.
What has changed though, are people conceptions. Monk has always had the 2nd highest eva stat in the game, so naturally it can evade quite a bit, on top of that it can also counter. So people start to wonder why, and hey presto everyone starts declaring monk tank.... epic fail imho.
Monks high eva stat, right back in the days of only having 6 jobs, would have been purely to help the mages out.
Monks counter ability, is purely oldschool, reincarnated and badly, instated.
Monks high HP is purely oldschool, reincarnated, and to be honest, Square failed altogether with the numbers on every job considering HP/MP/DMG (think about every other FF game.... seen 4x9's in FFXI yet?)
So, monk will only ever be a tank until people start putting 2 Tank atmas on PLD and showing the bandwagon players how to properly tank.
Musahashi
03-14-2011, 12:27 PM
what is their outside of abyssea thats even really worth it at this current stage in the game?
How about self accomplishment? How about fun?
If your not playing for self accomplishment, and fun, then why are you playing?
Captain
03-14-2011, 12:29 PM
The 1 difference between an actual tank job is that whm's don't have to spend all their energy on 1 player if you have a real tank.
Monk is not a tank, get over it. Monk is, and always will be a DD job.
What has changed though, are people conceptions. Monk has always had the 2nd highest eva stat in the game, so naturally it can evade quite a bit, on top of that it can also counter. So people start to wonder why, and hey presto everyone starts declaring monk tank.... epic fail imho.
Monks high eva stat, right back in the days of only having 6 jobs, would have been purely to help the mages out.
Monks counter ability, is purely oldschool, reincarnated and badly, instated.
Monks high HP is purely oldschool, reincarnated, and to be honest, Square failed altogether with the numbers on every job considering HP/MP/DMG (think about every other FF game.... seen 4x9's in FFXI yet?)
So, monk will only ever be a tank until people start putting 2 Tank atmas on PLD and showing the bandwagon players how to properly tank.
No shit sherlock.
Cream_Soda
03-14-2011, 12:30 PM
So, monk will only ever be a tank until people start putting 2 Tank atmas on PLD and showing the bandwagon players how to properly tank.
Tank atma or not, why would you use a pld over a mnk?
If you can keep the monk alive, there is 0 reason to use the job that's going to take a fkton longer to kill the monster.
If you have a mnk tank and it takes you 5 minutes to kill a monster.
Replace the mnk w/ a pld and now it takes 10-15 minutes to kill that same monster.
Why would you ever pick the pld?
Denabond
03-14-2011, 12:40 PM
Its funny that I started this thread not because I wanted to be a better tank then pld, but rather to make it worthwhile to skill it for some other reason other then having another blue number in your combat skill list. Mnk has always been a DD, and always will be. Its just seen as a tank atm.
Superchicken
03-14-2011, 12:40 PM
How about self accomplishment? How about fun?
If your not playing for self accomplishment, and fun, then why are you playing?
well i dont know about you but self accomplishment is getting the latest gears and equiping your job up. Lets get real this game is a fashion statement and about what gear you have on what job. No one cares you can go out in old areas and go solo sky gods or w/e mob you want to insert cause honestly all that gear is blah at this time in the game. So for people who have been playing this game for a long time abyssea is where the self accomplishment comes, the fun, etc.
And lets get real. MNKs are the tanks in abyssea. Why do you say they aren't, because they dont have MP and that AWESOME cure IV that PLDs have. and you want to talk about tank atmas on mnk, dont even need them. Thats the beauty a monk can tank abyssea with DD atmas on! Oh and you know what a mnk and whm can pretty much take abyssea over its knee and spank it like a bad little kid. So try that with a PLD and a whm, and if you do kill an NM while it took you 15 20 minutes to do it the mnk and whm are on their 3rd or 4th NM fight.
Now don't get me wrong, PLDs are good tanks OUTSIDE abyssea but inside abyssea who needs em? Ask even the best geared PLDs around (and i know a couple on my server that are decked out almaces, aegiss, drings, excals, full af3, full pdt, full mdt, you name it) who tanks abyssea the best and even those die hard PLDs will tell you mnks do, or at least the smart ones will. And even outside abyssea mnks can tank stuff still while being in DD gears! Looks like at the days when 75 was the level cap. What was the big thing people did for gear? Salvage. Who tanked salvage? I think if this was a family feud question the panel would say MNK and those who answered PLD would get he loud buzzer and big red X. Sure PLD could tank salvage but why in your right mind would you do that? I know your answer here "self satisfaction, fun, blah blah" right. Yeah well thats good and all but we are talking efficiency here. In salvage mnk didnt need the magic cell, the mp cell, hell even the weapon cell the mnks were the last to get at least in my group because they didnt need it to function. Just like now a days, you dont need a pld to tank abyssea cause a mnk can tank just fine and can put out way more dmg than a PLD can in the process.
Protey
03-15-2011, 01:57 AM
Monk has always had the 2nd highest eva stat in the game, so naturally it can evade quite a bit, on top of that it can also counter.
incorrect. NIN has 2nd highest eva (in terms of skill). MNK is tied for 3rd (in terms of skill). Though DNC and PUP have evasion bonus, so MNK is even farther down the list.
Cream_Soda
03-15-2011, 02:43 AM
incorrect. NIN has 2nd highest eva (in terms of skill). MNK is tied for 3rd (in terms of skill). Though DNC and PUP have evasion bonus, so MNK is even farther down the list.
He was talking about when the game came out and there were like 6 jobs. I was going to post the same thing until i realized that.
I am still curious what outside of abyssea mob needs a PLD.
Guard Mastery can i have it?
Guard Mastery and Tactical Guard, you crazy
DD tanks were superior on most mobs before Abyssea was even implemented, it just took people a while to realize this. I have no idea what you think a 'real tank' constitutes. PLDs have a harder time keeping hate and have very mediocre damage output. A MNK can cap PDT and MDT with macros when needed without swapping out there weapon. A PLD might take a little bit less damage (keyboard little), but it's very much worth the trade off.
Captain
03-15-2011, 08:15 AM
DD tanks were superior on most mobs before Abyssea was even implemented, it just took people a while to realize this. I have no idea what you think a 'real tank' constitutes. PLDs have a harder time keeping hate and have very mediocre damage output. A MNK can cap PDT and MDT with macros when needed without swapping out there weapon. A PLD might take a little bit less damage (keyboard little), but it's very much worth the trade off.
Ok so on something like Tiamat or Jormungand You're telling me a mnk can straight tank it while taking minimal dmg and keeping hate? And before you try to tell me "WHO FIGHTS JORM DEEEZ DAYS LOL1" these are just examples of difficult monsters which still require or according to you don't require a pld.
Musahashi
03-15-2011, 04:17 PM
Ok so on something like Tiamat or Jormungand You're telling me a mnk can straight tank it while taking minimal dmg and keeping hate? And before you try to tell me "WHO FIGHTS JORM DEEEZ DAYS LOL1" these are just examples of difficult monsters which still require or according to you don't require a pld.
Couldn't have said it better myself. It's time more people began to think outside of abyssea.
But think of other instances aswell, like dynamis for example, if your gonna go low-man (6-10 ppl) in dyna, you'll probably want someone with high defense to tank so that you can keep moving without having to wait for the mages to rest.
Abyssea, anything can tank, even mages, comparing anything with abyssea is pointless. Outside of abyssea, exp mobs are not worth comparing anything against, since normal exp mobs that people target, are generally fast, easy kills that yield high exp, so yeah... even thf could tank if they wanted to, but Monk tanking difficult mobs? Yeah... right.
Neisan_Quetz
03-16-2011, 01:33 AM
By high defense you mean Nin tank for dynamis right (Even war can tank Cities...)? Still didn't need a Pld. Jorm/Tia you could have brought a Drk and still not need a Pld to tank those. Pld was and still is, not needed. Cerb I know for a fact Sam could tank, also salvage/most of Ein and other stuff as well. Pre nerf Rdm too assuming you couldn't melee on the mob. But I digress, if you could melee on the mob, a DD tank is going to be preferable to paladin assuming it isn't being one shotted or massively draining mp (still hard outside abyssea now with the additional refresh all mage jobs have access to in gear and subjob/abilities).
The worse your group/support was, the more preferable Paladin was to tank as a safety net, the better your group/support is, the less preferable Paladin becomes.
Protey
03-16-2011, 02:32 AM
Couldn't have said it better myself. It's time more people began to think outside of abyssea.
But think of other instances aswell, like dynamis for example, if your gonna go low-man (6-10 ppl) in dyna, you'll probably want someone with high defense to tank so that you can keep moving without having to wait for the mages to rest.
Abyssea, anything can tank, even mages, comparing anything with abyssea is pointless. Outside of abyssea, exp mobs are not worth comparing anything against, since normal exp mobs that people target, are generally fast, easy kills that yield high exp, so yeah... even thf could tank if they wanted to, but Monk tanking difficult mobs? Yeah... right.
what do you consider difficult... i've tanked almost everything in sky/sea on mnk (Kirin and JoL not very practical to do so, Kirin since zerg and JoL since have to wait for so many iterations of adds while getting nuked)
as for dyna... cities at least i've lowmanned with like 5 people. rdm with blm sub pulls and procs mnk mobs then sleeps. brd to speed things up and help with sleeps. whm. 2x DD. I remember going with a sam and a drg. mind you this was at level 80 cap. at level 90 it should be even easier. Tank, yea right, just destroy stuff. If your mages need to rest... they suck.
Ok so on something like Tiamat or Jormungand You're telling me a mnk can straight tank it while taking minimal dmg and keeping hate? And before you try to tell me "WHO FIGHTS JORM DEEEZ DAYS LOL1" these are just examples of difficult monsters which still require or according to you don't require a pld.
Tanking tiamat and subsequently jorm is pretty easy as any DD mnk and sam would have no issues. Also thanks to the agi=subtle blow, mnk and most DDs extremely shine on things you would not normally like the TP moves from since it would limit down the spam while still doing tremendous dmg.
I believe a monk that can tank outside of abyssea has major skill... i am rather new to the job and have alot to learn but its not a hard concept to realize that the quicker u kill something the less support and mp pool u need. With that said.... for anything that flies I.E Tiamat Jormy... of course pld is gonna be more productive ... u cant counter there magic attks nor guard them... and a pld will always stand above in these situations b/c they dont need to melee to hold hate. Not at all saying u couldnt tank with another job hell a rdm/nin does just fine....
Captain
03-16-2011, 08:43 AM
Anyway since it's pointless arguing with trolls and stupid people, I'm just going to say mnk will never be a better tank than pld outside of abyssea on things which have very high acc/def/eva and why? trouble dealing dmg and taking dmg, pld can take hits, mnk cannot, pld has tools and gear to maintain enmity, mnk does not, this argument is comparing a mnk to pld in terms of tanking outside of abyssea, so abyssea does not count and it's very possible that abyssea will no longer count in future updates when we have to fight things WITHOUT ATMAS and without atmas the game is completely different.
Another thing to remember is the days of lvl 75, when pld WAS the best tanking type there was, this is how it could be when we don't do shit in abyssea anymore, this is the point i'm trying to make. If it isn't going to turn out in that way then, I was wrong, but we'll soon see. /thread.
Protey
03-16-2011, 09:21 AM
Anyway since it's pointless arguing with trolls and stupid people, I'm just going to say mnk will never be a better tank than pld outside of abyssea on things which have very high acc/def/eva and why? trouble dealing dmg and taking dmg, pld can take hits, mnk cannot, pld has tools and gear to maintain enmity, mnk does not, this argument is comparing a mnk to pld in terms of tanking outside of abyssea.
trolls and stupid people... so you're referring to yourself. your comments make me wonder if you even have mnk leveled. High acc? MNKs don't care about evading, we want them to bypass evasion so we can counter them to death. High DEF and eva? like what... what outside of abyssea has high defense/eva against a level 90 MNK with food that isn't some gimptard. maintain enmity?... it's called destroying the mob with damage.
Captain
03-16-2011, 09:55 AM
trolls and stupid people... so you're referring to yourself. your comments make me wonder if you even have mnk leveled. High acc? MNKs don't care about evading, we want them to bypass evasion so we can counter them to death. High DEF and eva? like what... what outside of abyssea has high defense/eva against a level 90 MNK with food that isn't some gimptard. maintain enmity?... it's called destroying the mob with damage.
Oh dear, it looks like you didn't understand the point of my post, you have even proved this to me by highlighting only the part you wanted to make a stupid and ignorant response to.
This is about the future, OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA WITHOUT GNARLED HORN AND RAZED RUIN FOR HIGH COUNTER RATE LOL1, see that second paragraph? please respond to it, please tell me about the days when mnk was always chosen to tank JoL or even something as pathetic as Byakko at lvl 75 without atmas. The game hasn't changed as much as you think it has mate, you go into abyssea without using any of the atmas or infact without using gnarled horn and razed ruin and see just how well your mnk can tank then, THAT IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT THE GAME WILL BE ABOUT OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA. For the record I do have mnk lvled, it's my main job I'm just not a baby like you are who bites at anyone who talks about mnk. yes talks about mnk not in any particular way just talking about it in general.
There is nothing right now that exists inside and outside of abyssea that is not melee tankable. Pld has no advantage anywhere at this point unless some very drastic changes are made with how dmg creates hate. Not hard to melee tank JoL, wasn't hard to melee tank abyssea when it was only level 80 with the visions zones when you only had 1 atma.
Speculate as much as you want in terms of the future, with your wild ideas that, as of right now, have no basing in the current end game scenarios. Going from the trend of how the level 90 gear has fanned out, you will not see plds tank outside of abyssea. Its only going to happen if there are drastic changes in how hate is generated by all sources.
And for the love of god, pld gets hit from the same amount mnk gets hit for the same amount anyone is going to get hit when they cap out at 50%pdt. I might possibly concede a point to pld in terms of MDT with aegis and shell V allowing you to put nothing but mdeff gear but if they take the same broken approach of trying to create more dmg from spells to players you'll see mobs with MAB through the roof, and at that point the 10 mdeff difference between mnk and pld would be negligible.
Segasaturn
03-16-2011, 01:19 PM
I dont see any mention of AGI+ helping Guard im Starting to think i'm teh onlyone who stacks Guard+ and AGi+ on my MNK is that wrong?
Martinius
03-16-2011, 01:28 PM
Guard is not in any way affected by AGI. I Spose it gives a slight evasion boost, but that's about it.
As for tanking outside abyssea, I can't think of anything I couldn't tank on mnk. A lot of us who leveled it way before abyssea made our bones tanking in salvage, which is why most of us carry a couple tp sets, ws specific ws sets, MDT sets and so forth. If you can't tank outside of abyssea on mnk, you're either an idiot, a pussy, or your mages suck.
Protey
03-17-2011, 03:33 AM
Oh dear, it looks like you didn't understand the point of my post, you have even proved this to me by highlighting only the part you wanted to make a stupid and ignorant response to.
This is about the future, OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA WITHOUT GNARLED HORN AND RAZED RUIN FOR HIGH COUNTER RATE LOL1, see that second paragraph? please respond to it, please tell me about the days when mnk was always chosen to tank JoL or even something as pathetic as Byakko at lvl 75 without atmas. The game hasn't changed as much as you think it has mate, you go into abyssea without using any of the atmas or infact without using gnarled horn and razed ruin and see just how well your mnk can tank then, THAT IS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT THE GAME WILL BE ABOUT OUTSIDE OF ABYSSEA. For the record I do have mnk lvled, it's my main job I'm just not a baby like you are who bites at anyone who talks about mnk. yes talks about mnk not in any particular way just talking about it in general.
oh dear, someone who doesn't know how to write. You talk about the future... then in just the 2nd sentence you write about the days of level 75. Work on your flow of thought. You want to talk about tanking without atmas outside of abyssea... I DO THAT. So do other monks. You seem to think for some reason that in the future there are going to be these impossible to tank mobs on mnk, that you HAVE to have a PLD... i say to you, that unless you're a developer for SE you're full of crap. I think the situation more likely is that you suck on mnk and are whining about mnk tanking because you do so poorly at it. Lastly, no i don't bite at anyone who talks about mnk, only gimps and idiots who talk about mnk as if they know how to play it when in actuality they should go play another job that's almost impossible to mess up... like brd (though i've seen some dumb bards before).
Segasaturn
03-17-2011, 04:58 AM
Ok well........as. for mnk tanking kirin I call BS no mnk can tank kirin solo non ZERG. And there is no way A mnk can tank vtra w.o zerg or help of another tank......a lot of the problems with plds tanking. Is most plds suck...pld is a pretty hard job to play in gear gil demand to stay on top along with timing and practice at hate control...its really not fair to bring plds into this on the case that most don't play pld.... guard needs fixing for the sake of being a skill that can be leved without insane grinding for months on end. I have just shy of 240 skill on guard and ever since I got it to 215 its started to work on bigger stuff salvage. Nyzul. All sorts of stuff and I love the skill... just needs to be. More easy to skill up.
Martinius
03-17-2011, 05:32 AM
ok a couple of points:
1) i never said anything about solo tanking. you can't change the parameters after the fact. that'd be like having a conversation about mnk/war on rani, and then saying "but mnk/war sucks on azdaja!" you'd be an idiot to solo tank something that can charm, terror and summon mobs (the rare exception being, of course, orobon boss in misareaux, but again, we're talking outside of abyssea, so the only real example is LAC in SSR, where because it spams charm you just kite him until tanks uncharm). the good tanks are the ones who balance hate with their co-tank.
2) why would you ever not zerg kirin? that being said, with a brd, rdm and a couple whms, a mnk could solo tank it. the level correction and a MDT set makes his spells kind of weak... i'd go /nin for breathing room. only dangerous spot is astral flow since it's likely too quick to get MDT set on. even still, mages are in much more danger than a mnk would be. but long fight vs. 30-35 second fights?
3) not @sega, but to someone earlier asking for guard to be shown in the log - guard doesn't function like parry, it functions like shield. it doesn't remove dmg being taken, it reduces down to 0 dmg, but still shown as an attack in the log.
Captain
03-17-2011, 09:03 AM
oh dear, someone who doesn't know how to write. You talk about the future... then in just the 2nd sentence you write about the days of level 75. Work on your flow of thought. You want to talk about tanking (inside of abyssea aswell as outside, you missed, derp) without atmas outside of abyssea... I DO THAT. So do other monks. You seem to think for some reason that in the future there are going to be these impossible to tank mobs on mnk, that you HAVE to have a PLD... i say to you, that unless you're a developer for SE you're full of crap. I think the situation more likely is that you suck on mnk and are whining about mnk tanking because you do so poorly at it (lol'd) . Lastly, no i don't bite at anyone who talks about mnk, only gimps and idiots who talk about mnk as if they know how to play it when in actuality they should go play another job that's almost impossible to mess up... like brd (though i've seen some dumb bards before). and what's funny here is the fact that you think mnk takes any amount of practical skill to play. The game in general takes barely any practical skill to play in comparison to many games out there.
looks like, u mad. I'm finished now this is going nowhere at all, it's always funny to see people who just, will NOT accept something that is quite very possible, but not only won't they accept but they have to retaliate in some babyish way like you do, oh well, back to browsing more of these silly threads.
Segasaturn
03-17-2011, 02:37 PM
Martinius Re: 1 when your talking about tanking you never mention being apart of a 2 tank system and when you say MNK can tank it's implied that A MNK is tanking the monster for the majority of the time and not passing hate so... if you ment 2 tanks probbly should have said that. the Term Solo-tanking is to define what i mean which is as above a MNK working as the the main tank and not passing hate with a co/2nd voke/ whatever term should be used. I am talking about outside of abyssea......because there are not the same thing being 90 is not gonna make everything soloable by MNK... alot of things yes.... but.. HNMs are gonna still be a threat.
2. RE:Kirin
1st thing is you cant zerg 2-3 Kirin pops in 1 sitting w/o lots of trouble ---
2.2 Ive done butt loads of Kirin zergs when we were 75 and they take alli of Top geared DDs everyones gotta spend money out teh as on meds being Spicific set ups that are useless for other events in sky... now throw in that my LS is mostly made up of friends and family types who... well are not nearly that great ...and Mage support is always light.. and those that are... well.. are not motivated to be on top of the game. with these types a Zerg is a Gamble at best and a crap shoot at worst... can you see why my ls is NOT zerging him?
2.3. you talk about how MNK could tank it right out but... Death hold would most liky 1 shot any MNK in Counterstance and nearly 1 shots me when im not in Counterstance..... maybe i just suck at MNK but ive been Fighting im at 90 and while MNK can now hurt him very well compared to old days... at 90 he still hurts like hell....and the babies are not chickens... they still have 2hours and such...
Last but not least parrying is counted as an Evade by chat filters while guard and shield are hits like normal melee i do still hold to those 3 defensive skills have some similarities..... Shield and Guard are closer though..
Martinius
03-17-2011, 05:07 PM
2. RE:Kirin 1st thing is you cant zerg 2-3 Kirin pops in 1 sitting w/o lots of trouble ---2nd. Ive done butt loads of Kirin zergs when we were 75 and they take alli of Top geared DDs everyones gotta spend money out teh as on meds being Spicific set ups that are useless for other events in sky... now throw in that my LS is mostly made up of friends and family types who... well are not nearly that great ...and Mage support is always light.. and those that are... well.. are not motivated to be on top of the game.
ok so much wall of text and a lot of it was nitpicking, so i'm just gonna let it go. that said, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't fought kirin at 90. i've killed him w/ 6 ppl (well 7 for TH). mnk/mnk/mnk/brd/brd/smn. one brd soulvoices and does 2 marches, 2nd brd does NQ march + minuet while each brd and the smn haste a mnk. that puts mnk at 100 fists speed w/o having to 2hr. smn pops perfect defense, mob is dead quickly. just add smns for multiple kills, and have an additional brd if you're doing more than 2 (can also get madrigal then). the more ppl you add, the faster it dies... last time we did it w/ the ls, we had maybe 12 ppl, and it was dead in 22 seconds. never even got a summon off (other than astral flow, of course).
edit: also, kirin rarely melees, most of his "swings" are tp moves with a claw or tailswipe every now and then, so don't use counterstance on him.
Greatguardian
03-17-2011, 05:11 PM
ok so much wall of text and a lot of it was nitpicking, so i'm just gonna let it go. that said, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't fought kirin at 90. i've killed him w/ 6 ppl (well 7 for TH). mnk/mnk/mnk/brd/brd/smn. one brd soulvoices and does 2 marches, 2nd brd does NQ march + minuet while each brd and the smn haste a mnk. that puts mnk at 100 fists speed w/o having to 2hr. smn pops perfect defense, mob is dead quickly. just add smns for multiple kills, and have an additional brd if you're doing more than 2 (can also get madrigal then). the more ppl you add, the faster it dies... last time we did it w/ the ls, we had maybe 12 ppl, and it was dead in 22 seconds.
Not to nitpick, but magic Haste caps at 43.5% so you're really only hitting about 68.5% Haste per Mnk, the third March isn't doing anything for you. SV March x2 with AF3+2 hands, +2 instrument, and 600 total skill caps magic haste without requiring Haste spell. Naked SV March + haste spell will also cap magic haste. Kirin is definitely doable with 7, and it's not like you had any sort of problems with it anyways so it's no biggie. Just a note for future reference, you'll be able to use double Minuets on your second bard in the future.
Segasaturn
03-17-2011, 10:35 PM
ok so much wall of text and a lot of it was nitpicking, so i'm just gonna let it go. that said, i'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you haven't fought kirin at 90. i've killed him w/ 6 ppl (well 7 for TH). mnk/mnk/mnk/brd/brd/smn. one brd soulvoices and does 2 marches, 2nd brd does NQ march + minuet while each brd and the smn haste a mnk. that puts mnk at 100 fists speed w/o having to 2hr. smn pops perfect defense, mob is dead quickly. just add smns for multiple kills, and have an additional brd if you're doing more than 2 (can also get madrigal then). the more ppl you add, the faster it dies... last time we did it w/ the ls, we had maybe 12 ppl, and it was dead in 22 seconds. never even got a summon off (other than astral flow, of course).
edit: also, kirin rarely melees, most of his "swings" are tp moves with a claw or tailswipe every now and then, so don't use counterstance on him.
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I fixed my wall of text so should be easy to read...
My biggest problem with Zerging Kirin is the wait before you can do another and my LS only has 1 bard(who happens to be the main WHM)... and only 2 MNKs are Well geared.
i Hate how Zerging things is like playing with Cheat codes in other games... once you do it you never wanna do it any other way....and you cant possible thing outside your Zerg-mind i know its the fastes and now probbly loads more stable.. but still takes teh right set up and sometimes people wanna do it another way? dose that make them Gimp? or stupid?
Martinius
03-18-2011, 02:28 AM
you know, it's a fair point, but the reality is, under the "normal circumstances," kirin would probably take 30-45 minutes? it's been so long since i've fought him traditionally. i mean, i remember way back in the day, you had a nin kite him around while rangers wore him down (ranger was my first 75, so that method had a certain nostalgia for me lol). but the reality was that while i stand by my point that you could straight tank kirin solo, you just need so much more support for a kite fight or a non-zerg standing fight.
and i don't really think that zerging is cheat code. i think brewing is the cheat code (albeit a super fun and ruthlessly efficient one), or using the cliff in misereaux to avoid the razed ruin giant or amhuluk's tp moves (before the Z-axis correction), but killing something quickly with a zerg is often the most time efficient (kirin) or safest (DL, marlboro boss in d-valk) way to do it.
as for being gimp or stupid, i wouldn't go that far. i don't know these people who are saying they want to do it the other way. just because mnk x3 (and thanks for that correction on magic haste btw^^) is very strong in a low-man method, wars, drgs, drks, sams... really any job that can do a great deal of dmg in a short burst does well on kirin.
Segasaturn
03-18-2011, 04:41 AM
You make a good points all around. With kirin I was always stuck chi blasting or blowing him up with garuda and wind blade before the zergs then I tryed doing different subs for mnk ended up war and boosting to +999 attack and throwing a dragon kick first hit before hundred fists good times.
As for Guard I just wanna be able to skill up the damn thing MNK is already very much a tank in many places itts probly best it isint to powerful with out some sort of draw back.
You wouldn't by any chance be willing to show me a list of good mdt. Stuff mnk can wear?
Cream_Soda
03-18-2011, 04:43 AM
You only need 23% MDT to cap w/ shellra V. So I use this and am still able to cap haste while I'm in the set.
http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/194794
Segasaturn
03-18-2011, 10:39 AM
Thank you Cream_soda for showing me what to look for ill be shopping soon im sure.