requiescat elements: Help ( it has WS elements)

[hideka]

Question1: Can anyone Confirm the elements of requiescat?
the WS is capable of creating Liquefaction (Quadrastrike), and darkness(for rudras). this means the "non-elemental" WS possesses SC propertys and therefore can be enhanced Via Gorget/belt combo. my guess is it has an element of either earth or thunder, as those are the only 2 elements that can lead into Liquefaction. if it makes darkness with rudra's that leads me to believe it at minimum has Earth/Darkness propertys. can anyone please confirm

QUestion2: do gorgets and belts stack? noob question, i know.
ive always been stacking them and never bothered to ask of they stacked.

[Deadvinta]

Since Requiescat has no element, it’s an effective weapon skill against monsters that are immune to physical attacks. Considering that players can use attack boosts and double attack effects to enhance damage (edited at 12:28pm PST), we decided that an adjustment was unnecessary.

A non-elemental weaponskill can still have skillchain properties. (See: Vorpal Blade)

[saevel]

I apologize for Hideka, she's extremely confused.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Requiescat

Physical WS that has it's damage subtype set to none. Not magic, doesn't use MAB, fINT or Mag.Accuracy.

Known SC attributes are
A: Gravitation
B: Scission

Could have a third of Liquifaction, needs testing.

Gorgets that are known to work are,
Shadow
Soil

[Theytak]

QUestion2: do gorgets and belts stack? noob question, i know.
ive always been stacking them and never bothered to ask of they stacked.

question one was already answered, so I'll give you this'n. Yes they stack, but no, it's not always the best option. Depending on the job (by which I mean available gear alternatives) and the wsc/fTP of the ws, you may get more benefit from using just one (belt OR gorget) and having a different stat piece in the other slot. This is especially true of the new WS with their 100% stat mods, even the complete piece of garbage that is lolrequiescat.

[hideka]

I apologize for Hideka, she's extremely confused.

http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Requiescat

Physical WS that has it's damage subtype set to none. Not magic, doesn't use MAB, fINT or Mag.Accuracy.

Known SC attributes are
A: Gravitation
B: Scission

Could have a third of Liquifaction, needs testing.

Gorgets that are known to work are,
Shadow
Soil

apparently your confused, the hits are what is considered to be "Spirit damage" akin to spirits within. not affected by physical damage reduction. so i apologize for your ignorance.
Also i never even alluded to it being magical damage,learn to read.

SE compared it to Spirits within in their post, hence why i was surprised that it possessed SC elements, not over the fact that it was nonelemental damage.

[saevel]

apparently your confused, the hits are what is considered to be "Spirit damage" akin to spirits within. not affected by physical damage reduction. so i apologize for your ignorance.
Also i never even alluded to it being magical damage,learn to read.

SE compared it to Spirits within in their post, hence why i was surprised that it possessed SC elements, not over the fact that it was nonelemental damage.

Ummm ... what ...

Spirits isn't physical, it doesn't use attack, accuracy, fSTR or any form of LCF. It's magical non-elemental as -MDT will reduce it's damage. Compared to Sang Blade which is Magical Darkness or Aeolian Edge which is Magical Wind.

Req is physical, it uses attack, accuracy, fSTR and LCF. It's physical non-elemental as -PDT will reduce it's damage. This is compared to Vorpal / CDC which is Physical Slashing or Evisceration which is Physical Piercing.

For crying out loud, Req STACKS with sneak attack, that kinda destroys your entire comment immediately.

There are two main types of damage, Physical and Magical, each has different subtypes.

Physical -> Slashing, Piercing, Blunt, Non-elemental

Magical -> Fire, Water, Thunder, Earth, Wind, Ice, Light, Dark, Non-elemental

Only thing that makes Req special is that monster physical resistances won't effect it. Slimes are Slashing -50% Blunt -75% Piercing -50% but magic +50%. Using Vorpal or CDC on them will have a -50% damage reduction, using Req will have no damage reduction. Using Sang or Aeolian Edge will have +50% damage bonus.

I don't know how to make it any simpler then this. This has all been tested prior to those WS's even being released into the live server. I've personally used Req vs various monsters on the test server to verify it's physical: non-elemental vs magical: non-elemental. Prime example is find a pot or eyeball, get it to use magic-shield then do Req. It will hit for full damage and completely ignore the magic shield effect.

[hideka]

It does bonus damage to cerberus type mobs. KTHXBI

[Byrth]

Spirit is a type of damage. Non-elemental is (apparently) a type of damage. This is non-elemental, which is SE's way of saying, "Hey Paladins! You know how we took your WSs that bypass physical immunities and made them useless by making all new content monsters resist the shit out of them?" . . . . . "Well don't worry, now you can use Requiescat in those situations instead!"

[saevel]

Spirit is a type of damage. Non-elemental is (apparently) a type of damage. This is non-elemental, which is SE's way of saying, "Hey Paladins! You know how we took your WSs that bypass physical immunities and made them useless by making all new content monsters resist the shit out of them?" . . . . . "Well don't worry, now you can use Requiescat in those situations instead!"

Magical Non-Elemental vs Physical Non-Elemental

Only difference is MDT vs PDT effects

Spirits Within / Atonement is just Magical Non-Elemental. Anything that gives MDT will block those. Req is apparently Physical Non-Elemental, something that players didn't have access too until just now. Anything that gives -PDT will block Req. Go fight a PLD monster and have it Invincible then Req on it, 0 damage.

[saevel]

Now if we really want to be technical there is no such thing as "magical" or "physical" or anything else for that matter. It's just a bit flag on the WS inside the games database. The bit flag is checked during the attack script that the appropriate code is called to determine what actually happens. The whole physical / magical damage types and subtypes is just us trying to figure out what exactly SE is doing inside the games database on the server. SE could of named one of the bits carrot and anything with it set to 1 would be calculated as doing carrot damage. The attack script upon detecting the bit flag of carrot set to high would then call the carrot damage formula and check to see what value was in the targets carrot damage resistance entry.

So all this nonsense of "spirit" and other crap is nothing but a set of bits on an entry in the database.

Nevertheless, the WS Req deals physical damage but isn't Piercing, Blunt, H2H nor Slashing damage. PDT will reduce it but none of the three known physical damage resistance's will effect it. Basically Physical Shield will reduce Req damage. Spirits / Atonement both are not effected by PDT nor any of the three known physical resistances (Slashing / Blunt / Piercing). Magic Shield will reduce the damage from Spirits / Atonement, but no other elemental resistances will effect them (Fire / Darkness / Light / ect..).

Based on the above information we can conclude that Req is Physical damage with no other bit flag set (Slashing / Piercing / Blunt / H2H).

[Karbuncle]

It does bonus damage to cerberus type mobs. KTHXBI

Prove it.

mmkay

[Theytak]

It does extra fail to cerberus type mobs. KTHXBI

fixed that for you.

[Martel]

Magical Non-Elemental vs Physical Non-Elemental

Only difference is MDT vs PDT effects

Spirits Within / Atonement is just Magical Non-Elemental. Anything that gives MDT will block those. Req is apparently Physical Non-Elemental, something that players didn't have access too until just now. Anything that gives -PDT will block Req. Go fight a PLD monster and have it Invincible then Req on it, 0 damage.
1: MDT won't affect Spirits Within or Atonement. MDT/MDB has no effect on them.

These WS, along with Chi Blast, are spirit dmg. Which is just a name I suppose. You could call it non-elemental Magic dmg, But it doesn't act like normal magic dmg. They're lacking the normal modifiers. Just about the only things that affect their dmg would be, Rampart, magic shield, and mob DMG type weakness/resist(Cerberus types take x2 dmg. Every NM since VNMs take half... -.-).

2:Requiescat goes right through invincible. It's also very likely that it'll ignore PDT and sentinel as well, but I haven't tested those as of yet. Also interested to see if it bypasses Physical shield. Needs tests.

[Theytak]

Spirits Within, Atonement, and Chi Blast are all in the same quasi-category as breath damage; they're not breath damage themselves, though spirits within is, basically, since almost universally breath damage is based on HP, but just about everything that resists breath damage specifically resists SW/Atonement/Chi Blast as well. I don't know/remember/care if anyone ever figured out whether the two damage types are distinct from one another, but basically, breath damage ignores MDB, and is a unique damage category. Honestly, the easiest way to figure out wtf requiescat does is to go find one of the thousand NMs that make SW/atonement/chiblast utterly useless (IE: I've yet to do a 11~12 boost chi blast against an abyssean NM and break 100 damage), and see if requiescat does even less damage than usual. If it doesn't, than it's a new, unique category unto itself.

[Martel]

Atonement/spirits certainly are not breath type DMG. Hp modification aside, Breath dmg is subject to a magic acc check. Failing results in resists. 1/2, 1/4 and so on.

While mobs can have a static dmg reduction(rather misleadingly called resistance) against spirit DMG type , there's not a magic acc check, and normal magic resists do not occur.

The difference fairly clearly indicates a different dmg class than breaths.

[Theytak]

Atonement/spirits certainly are not breath type DMG. Hp modification aside, Breath dmg is subject to a magic acc check. Failing results in resists. 1/2, 1/4 and so on.

While mobs can have a static dmg reduction(rather misleadingly called resistance) against spirit DMG type , there's not a magic acc check, and normal magic resists do not occur.

The difference fairly clearly indicates a different dmg class than breaths.

yea, I think my brain shut off halfway through whatever point I was trying to make

[Martel]

However, the idea of testing Requiescat on mobs that resist atonement is not a bad idea. The result could make a very clear distinction between the two.

I was out in abyssea kon as I was reading this thread, so I did a quick test.

T1 VNM, meanderer.

Atonement, 300% TP. Capped Hate.

375 DMG. Or a 50% reduction.

Requiescat: 900~1,500.
Had cruor buffs, But not DD atmas. (was playing with max possible DE+Holy II dmg ^^)
Just used my Chant set for ws.

For perspective, I used it a few times on the nearby gneiss leeches.
Gneiss leech + Req:1k~1.6k dmg.

Doesn't seem like req is dealing half dmg. So While It may be Non-Elemental DMG, it's clearly in a different class than Atonement.

[saevel]

1: MDT won't affect Spirits Within or Atonement. MDT/MDB has no effect on them.

These WS, along with Chi Blast, are spirit dmg. Which is just a name I suppose. You could call it non-elemental Magic dmg, But it doesn't act like normal magic dmg. They're lacking the normal modifiers. Just about the only things that affect their dmg would be, Rampart, magic shield, and mob DMG type weakness/resist(Cerberus types take x2 dmg. Every NM since VNMs take half... -.-).

2:Requiescat goes right through invincible. It's also very likely that it'll ignore PDT and sentinel as well, but I haven't tested those as of yet. Also interested to see if it bypasses Physical shield. Needs tests.

Wrong, MDT =/= MAB/MDB.

Magic Defense Bonus only applies to MAB calculations, SWI / Atonement do not use MAB and this MDB has to effect. Magic Damage Take, aka MDT is a percentage reduction (or enhancement for some) on all magic damage taken. Magic Shield is 100% resistance to all magic type effects, both damage and status effects.

SWI / Atonement both are effected by MDT and Magic Shield, PDT and Physical Shield have no effect on them. Req isn't effected by Magic Shield nor MDT, it's not magic damage. It even stacks with Sneak Attack, the universally accepted litmus test for Physical vs Magical based WS.

On the test server I used Req on a PLD mob that had 2hr'd, it did 0 damage. Please feel free to test it again on a Invincible'd monster. Or go one step further, fight a Hydra NM, there are plenty in Abyssea, and wait for it to use Pyric / Polar Bulwark. Under Polar Bulwark it's immune to magic damage, so use Req and see if it does 0 damage. Under Pyric Bulwark (immune to physical damage) do the same. Based on it doing 0 to a PLD under Invincible, I'm fairly confident that it'll do 0 to the Hydra under Pyric Bulwark and regular damage under Polar Bulwark.

Now on that note.

Is there something wrong with your brain? I'm really getting tired of people trying to compare a physical WS to SWI / Atonement, both of which are magical WS. Just because there has never been a physical WS without a damage type set to Piercing / Slashing / Blunt you think it must therefor be magical. That is illogical, its a four hit (five with DW) attack with an -20% attack penalty. You can NEVER *miss* a magic WS but you can miss hits on Req. It use's the standard physical WS damage formula. The only thing different from this and vorpal is that vorpal is slashing damage and Req is non-specific, aka *non-elemental* in SE speak. Meaning it will ignore any monster specific damage resistances.

[Martel]

Wrong, MDT =/= MAB/MDB.

Magic Defense Bonus only applies to MAB calculations, SWI / Atonement do not use MAB and this MDB has to effect. Magic Damage Take, aka MDT is a percentage reduction (or enhancement for some) on all magic damage taken. Magic Shield is 100% resistance to all magic type effects, both damage and status effects.

SWI / Atonement both are effected by MDT and Magic Shield, PDT and Physical Shield have no effect on them. Req isn't effected by Magic Shield nor MDT, it's not magic damage. It even stacks with Sneak Attack, the universally accepted litmus test for Physical vs Magical based WS.

There's no need to explain the difference between MDT and MDB. I'm aware.

But my statement still stands true.

MDB has no effect on atonement. Like you said, cause there's no MAB check.

But MDT also has no effect Atonement. Else every mage mob casting shell would have gimped its dmg.

I've seen this time and time again. A mob putting up shell will not reduce atonement DMG.

No objections to the remaining statements in this quote.


On the test server I used Req on a PLD mob that had 2hr'd, it did 0 damage. Please feel free to test it again on a Invincible'd monster. Or go one step further, fight a Hydra NM, there are plenty in Abyssea, and wait for it to use Pyric / Polar Bulwark. Under Polar Bulwark it's immune to magic damage, so use Req and see if it does 0 damage. Under Pyric Bulwark (immune to physical damage) do the same. Based on it doing 0 to a PLD under Invincible, I'm fairly confident that it'll do 0 to the Hydra under Pyric Bulwark and regular damage under Polar Bulwark.
I have tested Req vs invincible. DMG was dealt. This was on the normal servers, so perhaps that accounts for the difference. I guess I should have screen shotted that..

I haven't tested physical shield as of yet. Hadn't had any business near hydras lately.


Now on that note.

Is there something wrong with your brain? I'm really getting tired of people trying to compare a physical WS to SWI / Atonement, both of which are magical WS. Just because there has never been a physical WS without a damage type set to Piercing / Slashing / Blunt you think it must therefor be magical. That is illogical, its a four hit (five with DW) attack with an -20% attack penalty. You can NEVER *miss* a magic WS but you can miss hits on Req. It use's the standard physical WS damage formula. The only thing different from this and vorpal is that vorpal is slashing damage and Req is non-specific, aka *non-elemental* in SE speak. Meaning it will ignore any monster specific damage resistances.

If this bit wasn't directed at me, ignore the following.

I never claimed Req was magical. I only did the atonement test cause Theytak brought it up and I wanted to offer evidence that they weren't the same.

I guess I should just brought up the sneak attack thing, but it didn't occur to me at the time.

[Demonofhunger]

T
I have tested Req vs invincible. DMG was dealt. This was on the normal servers, so perhaps that accounts for the difference. I guess I should have screen shotted that..

I haven't tested physical shield as of yet. Hadn't had any business near hydras lately.


It punches through the Physical Shield of the hydras in Grauberg [A].

[saevel]

If you've guys have tested it on the real server and confirmed that it ignores invincible / physical shield then SE changed it from the test server version. Most likely in response to the sheer negativity reported, hence that whole "does damage to resistant enemies" spiel that made on it.

In this case it would be useful for monsters that would otherwise resist other forms of damage. It being physical and having a -20% attack still renders it's damage pathetic on anything with decent defense. Possibly try it on that Flan VWNM as its highly resistant to physical damage.

And that comment is directed at all the people comparing a physical WS to known magic WS. And even going further and saying that because it has a SC property that it ~must~ therefor have an element.