Stop Player Bashing

[Amerlyn]

I've seen several post already where someone has posted something (a suggestion) and a more Skilled player has decided it was a good idea to bash the player for his/her inabilities.

This forum was started for general game discussions/suggestions. Not meant to demean a player for his/her thoughts. You either agree with them or you don't. No need to make yourself feel big because you can do something another player can't by telling them how pathetic they are.

I really don't think SE started this site to read about how good you are and see how much you rub it in to those who can't. I'm pretty sure they started this site so people can give they're suggestions to things they think need to be changed. Idea to improve game play. Pass on your knowledge and skill to inexperienced players. Not constantly bash them.

So please. Keep it polite. Try to stay on topic. If you agree, but want to add something to the idea to make it better, do so. If you disagree with it, disagree and explain why the CHANGE wouldn't increase game play, but keep it civil to other players and stop bashing them b/c they are having difficulties with something.

[Arcon]

Can't agree more with this. Even if some ideas don't make sense to you, present reasons why it shouldn't be added/changed and keep it at that. Several times I've heard people being called "whining noobs" and worse when they were neither whining or noobs or worse.

In fact I would appreciate if moderators could keep an eye out on "aggressive" posters, quite a few have surfaced already. People who deliberately walk the fine line of not actually breaking the rules are just as bad as the people who occasionally do. They intimidate many nice players who then are too scared to post suggestions 'cause they fear being bashed and made fun of. And I'm pretty sure that's not what these forums where intended for.

[Amerlyn]

This rule is actually mentioned in the "Sticky: Welcome to Forum: General Discussion!" that only has 200+ views.

[JagerForrester]

I hope I haven't crossed that line. There has been a few times I've read a suggestion thread today, and don't agree with it. I'll freely give my opinion on it, tell you why I think it works or don't works. And I'll continue to back up my response with understanding until convinced to change my opinion.

And what I haven't tolerated in suggestion threads is the excuse of PS2 limitations. We all know it's a problem, so we don't need hundreds of players disagreeing to an idea because there's not enough space to do it. It's a true, but meaningless argument to say we don't have the space to do it. What's the point of making suggestions the excuse is always no space?

All players are allowed to throw their suggestions out there, and shouldn't fear of it being bashed to the point it's a horrible idea and it hurts the OP's and the supporters' feelings.

[Amerlyn]

I haven't seen any problem with your posts JagerForrester. I've agreed with the posts you've typed so far. And I do agree PS2 Limitations shouldn't be an excuse for agreeing or disagreeing to a post. You can still agree/disagree to a post even if it won't directly effect you (One day it may - may get a new system or something). If they have an issue with ps2 limitations it should be placed and discussed in a thread about ps2 limitations.

On that note: There is also a rule in the same sticky about staying on topic. So please if anyone has a problem with something don't bring it up in EVERY thread you visit. Search and see if there is already a thread about that issue and post it there. If there isn't one already, make one. This is also a part of the rule I just mentioned. It helps prevent confusion and keeps people on topic.

[Naturebeckles]

I've seen several post already where someone has posted something (a suggestion) and a more Skilled player has decided it was a good idea to bash the player for his/her inabilities.

This forum was started for general game discussions/suggestions. Not meant to demean a player for his/her thoughts. You either agree with them or you don't. No need to make yourself feel big because you can do something another player can't by telling them how pathetic they are.

I really don't think SE started this site to read about how good you are and see how much you rub it in to those who can't. I'm pretty sure they started this site so people can give they're suggestions to things they think need to be changed. Idea to improve game play. Pass on your knowledge and skill to inexperienced players. Not constantly bash them.

So please. Keep it polite. Try to stay on topic. If you agree, but want to add something to the idea to make it better, do so. If you disagree with it, disagree and explain why the CHANGE wouldn't increase game play, but keep it civil to other players and stop bashing them b/c they are having difficulties with something.

I don't think it's going to stop simply because the people who player bash on these forums are also doing it in the game and I don't think their attitude is going to change. Don't mean to be pessimistic... but I'm just sayin'

[SNK]

I don't think it's going to stop simply because the people who player bash on these forums are also doing it in the game and I don't think their attitude is going to change. Don't mean to be pessimistic... but I'm just sayin'

This in a nutshell. If people constantly post stupid crap and try to say they're right even tho other people have told them they're wrong, *Black Belt vs Twilight Belt Thread for example* then they're going to get what's coming to them.

[Frost]

Please know that disagreeing, and/or pointing out flaw in logic, and/or giving an alternative perspective is NOT player bashing, it's having a discussion.

[Amerlyn]

I'm sure it won't stop just because I've said something. I'm just pointing out the rules in hopes that some of the people bashing might quiet it down and attempt to respect other players. I really don't want to see this forum turning into another 4-chan, where everyone bashes people just to get a kick off from it. Then feeds off the drama it causes. I really hope the moderators can keep up on here so it doesn't come to that point. This forum should feel safe to players. A place to learn and help. Not a place simply to boost ones ego and create drama. This is merely my opinion and also seems to me what SE is pushing for according to they're rules. I just hope they can back it up.

[Amerlyn]

Please know that disagreeing, and/or pointing out flaw in logic, and/or giving an alternative perspective is NOT player bashing, it's having a discussion.

Agreed, but name calling and demeaning a player is bashing which is what I have been seeing. I have never said disagreeing was player bashing. I just said it should be kept polite. A discussion can be done w/out bashing another player.

[SNK]

What planet are you from where their internet doesn't breed people who constantly act like ***?

[Krystal]

*hides her batt* oh darn....:P

[Greatguardian]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but the overwhelming majority of my posts have been sincerely nice. However, I will say one thing, the few mean-esque posts I've made were definitely not out of the blue or because someone disagreed with me.

I could care less how good of a player someone is, to be honest. If anything, I've often found myself posting in the defense of weaker players on this forum. However, it does irritate me when posters claim to be "Elite" in order to add weight to their arguments and suppress everyone else. I may consider myself a high tier player, but that simply means I may have a different perspective on things; not that my view is more important than those of everyone else. When certain players try to do this, calling themselves elite (especially when they're not) and using that as the entire basis of attacks on others or to add weight to their views, I will most certainly call them out on it.

Everyone starts out with respect. With well thought out posts, intelligent discussion, civil argument (even when I'm wrong), or other meaningful contributions to the community, respect can be gained. With trash posts, caps lock or bolded ranting at others for not agreeing with them, or basically anything Starcade's said, respect can be lost. I cannot apologize for being stern with players who have chosen to demean themselves in such a way. I'll gladly have a civil discussion with anyone who wants one, but I won't waste my time putting well thought out posts together if the recipient isn't going to read it anyways.

[Amerlyn]

This in a nutshell. If people constantly post stupid crap and try to say they're right even tho other people have told them they're wrong, *Black Belt vs Twilight Belt Thread for example* then they're going to get what's coming to them.

It may be stupid to you and other people, but might have meaning to them. For example: A friend of mine likes Ketchup/Hot Sauce with Ramen Noodles he thinks its delicious. I think its stupid and disgusting. But I don't bash him for it. If someone refuses to take your advice on something, don't take offense and start bashing him/her because you think hes and idiot. Just leave it be. Its his/her choice whether they want to take your suggestion/advice. If they start the bashing then ignore them. Theres no reason to keep the drama going and feed them. Let the hostility end with them. Eventually they will get what is coming to them. Eventually they will learn you were correct.

As much as I want people to be polite, and i KNOW its in them. I've been on the internet a long time and know people don't care about someone they can't see/hear and don't know. I just cross my fingers and hope my words will at least have some effect.

[Frost]

It may be stupid to you and other people, but might have meaning to them. For example: A friend of mine likes Ketchup/Hot Sauce with Ramen Noodles he thinks its delicious. I think its stupid and disgusting. But I don't bash him for it. If someone refuses to take your advice on something, don't take offense and start bashing him/her because you think hes and idiot. Just leave it be. Its his/her choice whether they want to take your suggestion/advice. If they start the bashing then ignore them. Theres no reason to keep the drama going and feed them. Let the hostility end with them. Eventually they will get what is coming to them. Eventually they will learn you were correct.

As much as I want people to be polite, and i KNOW its in them. I've been on the internet a long time and know people don't care about someone they can't see/hear and don't know. I just cross my fingers and hope my words will at least have some effect.

You should bash him for it. Ketchup is a sin against nature; it and those who consume it should be erased from the earth.

[Greatguardian]

There's a huge difference between someone liking ketchup and ramen together, and someone telling others that Twilight belt is better than Black belt for Monk. It isn't. One is an opinion, the other is simply false.

[Amerlyn]

There's a huge difference between someone liking ketchup and ramen together, and someone telling others that Twilight belt is better than Black belt for Monk. It isn't. One is an opinion, the other is simply false.

Not completely correct. In the one persons opinion it is better, in the others it isn't. It still revolves around a players opinion. Even if the majority's opinion says its not. It is still the persons opinion that it is. You can post your opinion on a subject, thats your opinion/suggestion. No one should start bashing another player just to force them to agree. Make your opinion and let them figure it out for themselves. Or continue to discuss the opinions w/out bashing, like we are now. I'm not going to force my opinion on you, just hope that you take my words into consideration.

[Greatguardian]

Not completely correct. In the one persons opinion it is better, in the others it isn't. It still revolves around a players opinion. Even if the majority's opinion says its not. It is still the persons opinion that it is. You can post your opinion on a subject, thats your opinion/suggestion. No one should start bashing another player just to force them to agree. Make your opinion and let them figure it out for themselves. Or continue to discuss the opinions w/out bashing, like we are now. I'm not going to force my opinion on you, just hope that you take my words into consideration.

This is patently incorrect, unfortunately. It's not really of "Well I like Orange more than Yellow", or "Well I like Red more than Blue". If the question is "Which belt contributes more damage to a Monk, Twilight belt or Black belt?" The answer is Black belt. Pure and simple. It is not an opinion, it is an easily provable fact backed by very simple mathematics.

5 > 4 is not an opinion. If it is someone's opinion that 3 is larger than 7, that person is wrong, opinion or not.

[SNK]

It may be stupid to you and other people, but might have meaning to them.

Meaning to them is one thing. Being blantently stupid is another. Cream Soda posted why Twilight Belt on MNK is bad and he still had to deal with a person who's head is up their ass even tho the math was posted right in front of them.

Food and People shouldn't be compared. Food doesn't get to be stupid. It just gets eaten.

[JagerForrester]

I'm just going to stand in the middle and say all equipment is situational. But I do feel MNKs should try to aim for Black Belt because of the 5% more haste plus Subtle Blow and Physical Defense Down is pretty good for attacking fast, giving less TP to monsters, and getting some defense to boot. Twilight Belt is given to other jobs and is one of the rewards to the Abbysea quests/storyline, which may serve as why Twilight Belt is not as great as the HNM/KSNM trials of the Black Belt.

[Vinc]

Even if the majority's opinion says its not. It is still the persons opinion that it is. You can post your opinion on a subject, thats your opinion/suggestion. No one should start bashing another player just to force them to agree.

lol

Itt: facts = opinions.

[SNK]

It generally comes down to this for a lot of people. One of the things I hate is when people try to spread mis-information as fact. A lot of us who have played this game for a long, long time really want to bang our heads on a desk when someone says and I quote...


I would much rather have double attack. However the haste is needed to reach the cap if you use twilight belt which is far superior to BB if you can cap haste.

And...


Now for tanking BB is far superior, but for DD it is not IF you can cap haste without it.

Really? Just really? And some people are going to believe this load of crap because someone pulls some stats out of their ass and then believes it so much that he suckers other people into doing the same retarded crap.

That is why you will never get everyone being flowers and candy all the time because retards like this don't listen when they're wrong.

I love that I can fulltime my AF3+1 Feet because of my Black Belt. It gives me a chubby knowing that I'm over the haste cap punching & kicking the crap out of stuff.~

[Amerlyn]

This is patently incorrect, unfortunately. It's not really of "Well I like Orange more than Yellow", or "Well I like Red more than Blue". If the question is "Which belt contributes more damage to a Monk, Twilight belt or Black belt?" The answer is Black belt. Pure and simple. It is not an opinion, it is an easily provable fact backed by very simple mathematics.

5 > 4 is not an opinion. If it is someone's opinion that 3 is larger than 7, that person is wrong, opinion or not.

Lol, well I never said ones opinion is wrong or not. I just said it is they're opinion. Even if they are proven wrong. It is still they're opinion. They have to learn for themselves. And shouldn't be bashed for. It still leads back to my original topic. A person shouldn't be bashed. There is absolutely no reason to bash anyone other than to deal with your aggrovation or boost your own ego. If someone is being an idiot even if you point out the truth to them you shouldn't bash them just ignore them and move on. Let them fall prey to they're own miscomings if they don't want to listen. How does a child learn what "hot" is? Its not because a grown up tells them. They will keep trying to touch it until they find out it is hot. then they Learn. Sounds like thats what this person needs. If he/she doesn't listen then they simply need to try it and learn they are wrong. Some people you cannot convince unless they do it themselves. And sometimes even then they won't believe it.

[Naturebeckles]

This in a nutshell. If people constantly post stupid crap and try to say they're right even tho other people have told them they're wrong, *Black Belt vs Twilight Belt Thread for example* then they're going to get what's coming to them.


that's not what I mean. I'm all for discussion. Black Belt vs. Twilight Belt is a matter of opinion. I've had people bash my gear and told me I sucked in the game just because they had no other ammo to throw at me and they were just mad at me for desacking them. That doesn't bother me. This one player camping Chonchon (a whm only half gear on) was whining that a bst won the claim and when I defended the bst, the whm told me he had more gil worth in his gear than my entire LS had. That... doesn't bother me.

But it bothers other people. If there's no basis for construction discussion, then you should just shut up because player bashing just serves to boost your own pathetic game self-esteem.

[Alkalinehoe]

Lol, well I never said ones opinion is wrong or not. I just said it is they're opinion. Even if they are proven wrong. It is still they're opinion. They have to learn for themselves. And shouldn't be bashed for. It still leads back to my original topic. A person shouldn't be bashed. There is absolutely no reason to bash anyone other than to deal with your aggrovation or boost your own ego. If someone is being an idiot even if you point out the truth to them you shouldn't bash them just ignore them and move on. Let them fall prey to they're own miscomings if they don't want to listen. How does a child learn what "hot" is? Its not because a grown up tells them. They will keep trying to touch it until they find out it is hot. then they Learn. Sounds like thats what this person needs. If he/she doesn't listen then they simply need to try it and learn they are wrong. Some people you cannot convince unless they do it themselves. And sometimes even then they won't believe it.
The OP of that topic was pretty much covering his ears and saying, "La la la la." He shouldn't be receiving sympathy from anyone for getting bashed.

[Cream_Soda]

It may be stupid to you and other people, but might have meaning to them. For example: A friend of mine likes Ketchup/Hot Sauce with Ramen Noodles he thinks its delicious. I think its stupid and disgusting. But I don't bash him for it. If someone refuses to take your advice on something, don't take offense and start bashing him/her because you think hes and idiot. Just leave it be. Its his/her choice whether they want to take your suggestion/advice. If they start the bashing then ignore them. Theres no reason to keep the drama going and feed them. Let the hostility end with them. Eventually they will get what is coming to them. Eventually they will learn you were correct.

As much as I want people to be polite, and i KNOW its in them. I've been on the internet a long time and know people don't care about someone they can't see/hear and don't know. I just cross my fingers and hope my words will at least have some effect.

That's not really the point.

and that's also not a good comparison.

Your ramen noodle comparison is strictly based on opinion.

Which of the two belts in the black belt vs twilight thread is capable of dealing more damage is a fact (yes you can math it out and see which one is physically better).

When you have one person giving hurtful advice to others, unless they're promptly corrected, someone is going to take that person seriously and become a worse player because of it.


Edit:
after reading your opinion thing, that's not the case at all.

he wasn't saying "I think X is better than Y"

he was making a statement "X deals more damage than Y" as a fact, not as an opinion. And it was an incorrect fact.

[Greatguardian]

Lol, well I never said ones opinion is wrong or not. I just said it is they're opinion. Even if they are proven wrong. It is still they're opinion. They have to learn for themselves. And shouldn't be bashed for. It still leads back to my original topic. A person shouldn't be bashed. There is absolutely no reason to bash anyone other than to deal with your aggrovation or boost your own ego. If someone is being an idiot even if you point out the truth to them you shouldn't bash them just ignore them and move on. Let them fall prey to they're own miscomings if they don't want to listen. How does a child learn what "hot" is? Its not because a grown up tells them. They will keep trying to touch it until they find out it is hot. then they Learn. Sounds like thats what this person needs. If he/she doesn't listen then they simply need to try it and learn they are wrong. Some people you cannot convince unless they do it themselves. And sometimes even then they won't believe it.

I could care less whether or not someone believes something which is incorrect. Players can believe that trees are made of bubble gum and rainbows and it doesn't bother me one bit. Just don't expect people to sit back quietly if these players try and *teach others* that Trees are made of bubble gum and rainbows. They're not.

[Amerlyn]

Even though this Black Belt vs. Twilight belt thing is being used as an example. The post seems to slowly be getting off topic. The discussion is this: Player Bashing shouldn't be done.

In fact it shouldn't even be discussed. SE has made it a rule. But as with real life, people ignore and push the rules. I can think of no real reason for anyone to be bashed on here. No matter how "stupid" the comment. Just ignore them if u can't get through to them.

[Naturebeckles]

That's not really the point.

and that's also not a good comparison.

Your ramen noodle comparison is strictly based on opinion.

Which of the two belts in the black belt vs twilight thread is capable of dealing more damage is a fact (yes you can math it out and see which one is physically better).

When you have one person giving hurtful advice to others, unless they're promptly corrected, someone is going to take that person seriously and become a worse player because of it.


Edit:
after reading your opinion thing, that's not the case at all.

he wasn't saying "I think X is better than Y"

he was making a statement "X deals more damage than Y" as a fact, not as an opinion. And it was an incorrect fact.

People aren't worse players because of the gear they choose. They're worse because of how they play. Whms that don't do anything but cast cure, no matter how great the gear they have on are still bad Whms.

[Vinc]

Even though this Black Belt vs. Twilight belt thing is being used as an example. The post seems to slowly be getting off topic. The discussion is this: Player Bashing shouldn't be done.

It's getting off topic to prove a point. If people can't understand basic things, like the difference between a fact and an opinion, why would you expect bashing to stop?

[Unaisis]

Whms that go Afk for hours when they think no one is looking are bad players

[Amerlyn]

I could care less whether or not someone believes something which is incorrect. Players can believe that trees are made of bubble gum and rainbows and it doesn't bother me one bit. Just don't expect people to sit back quietly if these players try and *teach others* that Trees are made of bubble gum and rainbows. They're not.

Again that falls for the person being taught to believe or not. I'm sure they will come across someone who will tell them different. At that point they will have to decide for themselves to believe it or not. You stated your opinion on the matter, you tried to set them straight. In the end it all revolves around what they decide to believe. Not sure if you grew up with parents who made you believe in Santa Claus or not, but I'm sure there were people trying to tell you different when you grew up. In the end you made your own decision. This is what they are going to have to decide for themselves. Still no reason to bash them for it. (The topic is stop player bashing - a set rule for the forum).

[Naturebeckles]

Whms that go Afk for hours when they think no one is looking are bad players

Of course... but I was just proving cream soda wrong that people recommending gear choices to other players doesn't make them bad players...

[Naturebeckles]

I could care less whether or not someone believes something which is incorrect. Players can believe that trees are made of bubble gum and rainbows and it doesn't bother me one bit. Just don't expect people to sit back quietly if these players try and *teach others* that Trees are made of bubble gum and rainbows. They're not.

Tree aren't made of bubble gum and rainbows?!? /sadface

[Greatguardian]

People aren't worse players because of the gear they choose. They're worse because of how they play. Whms that don't do anything but cast cure, no matter how great the gear they have on are still bad Whms.

Gear doesn't make a bad player good, but it makes a good player better.

Great gear is not required to be a good player, no. But a truly good player would research and learn to understand the mechanics behind their job and the game itself and use what gear, within their reach and circumstances, is best.

[Cream_Soda]

People aren't worse players because of the gear they choose. They're worse because of how they play. Whms that don't do anything but cast cure, no matter how great the gear they have on are still bad Whms.
Actually, I'm going to correct you on this.

Gear they have available and gear they choose are two different things.

For example, Triumph earrings were like 600k on my server back at lv 75. Merman's earrings were 200k.

Merman's earring was a better earring for TP and WS for mnk.

If you chose triumph, then yes, you'd be a bad monk.


I look at it this way.


Gear + Skill > anything else.

Having skill isn't enough. You can be the most skilled person in the world and let's say use all lv 50 gear and you just won't cut it.

You can have the best gear in the game and no skill, and still be horrible.

If you have good gear and know how to play your job, combine the gear and the skill, that's where you get the best players.



Here is my perspective.

Gear = Potential. The better gear you have, the better higher potential you will have as a player. Your skill level = how much of that potential you are reaching.

[Naturebeckles]

Gear doesn't make a bad player good, but it makes a good player better.

Great gear is not required to be a good player, no. But a truly good player would research and learn to understand the mechanics behind their job and the game itself and use what gear, within their reach and circumstances, is best.

I agree with you on this. But... with all the different game opinions out there, many GOOD players are going to still disagree on what gear they think is best based on how they want to play their job. There is enough flexibility in each job to play it in different ways. So, based on my original point that following somebody's opinion on the best gear isn't going to make somebody a worse player... I'm still right.

[Naturebeckles]

Actually, I'm going to correct you on this.

Gear they have available and gear they choose are two different things.

For example, Triumph earrings were like 600k on my server back at lv 75. Merman's earrings were 200k.

Merman's earring was a better earring for TP and WS for mnk.

If you chose triumph, then yes, you'd be a bad monk.


I look at it this way.


Gear + Skill > anything else.

Having skill isn't enough. You can be the most skilled person in the world and let's say use all lv 50 gear and you just won't cut it.

You can have the best gear in the game and no skill, and still be horrible.

If you have good gear and know how to play your job, combine the gear and the skill, that's where you get the best players.



Here is my perspective.

Gear = Potential. The better gear you have, the better higher potential you will have as a player. Your skill level = how much of that potential you are reaching.

I really think you're one of those people who just like to "hear yourself talk". The original intent of my post had nothing to do with a high level whm wearing level 50 gear and discussing how skill alone doesn't make a good player. I never said that to begin with anyway, so I don't even know what you're correcting.

[Cream_Soda]

I really think you're one of those people who just like to "hear yourself talk". The original intent of my post had nothing to do with a high level whm wearing level 50 gear and discussing how skill alone doesn't make a good player. I never said that to begin with anyway, so I don't even know what you're correcting.

People aren't worse players because of the gear they choose.


Actually, I'm going to correct you on this.

Gear they have available and gear they choose are two different things.

For example, Triumph earrings were like 600k on my server back at lv 75. Merman's earrings were 200k.

Merman's earring was a better earring for TP and WS for mnk.

If you chose triumph, then yes, you'd be a bad monk.


Everything after that was just a general statement and nothing specifically to you.

[Greatguardian]

I agree with you on this. But... with all the different game opinions out there, many GOOD players are going to still disagree on what gear they think is best based on how they want to play their job. There is enough flexibility in each job to play it in different ways. So, based on my original point that following somebody's opinion on the best gear isn't going to make somebody a worse player... I'm still right.

People gear their jobs and play them in many different ways, this is true. Unfortunately, just because someone does something one way, for whatever reason, does not necessarily make it better or even viable. I could TP in all STR+ gear on my Monk, but I know I would be doing less damage that way, and thus be worse for it.

FFXI math has been figured out for a very long time. It is not difficult at all to look at two different sets and determine which one will do more damage, create more hate, cure more, or enfeeble more accurately or more potently.

Since I've been keeping up with other threads, a specific example which works out fine is your THF. You say you gear for Dex, Agi, and Chr with 0 Haste, and I am given the impression that you do not change gear between TP and Weaponskills, let alone Job Abilities. In general, I can tell you right now hitting faster would do more damage. Changing gear for weaponskills and job abilities (and thus not wearing CHR while TP'ing) would increase your damage. If you want the differences to be quantified, that is shown in numerical format, you can post exactly what it is you do use and I can compare it to an alternate set.

I'm not saying this to "Bash" you, and I do not feel that I am being rude or insulting at all. I am simply offering you the opportunity to improve.

[Amerlyn]

I'm not saying this to "Bash" you, and I do not feel that I am being rude or insulting at all. I am simply offering you the opportunity to improve.

I don't see any bash or insult in there. Lol. I think people have a different opinion on what "bashing" is. You gave your opinion on gear, and merely stated you feel u can help her improve. Bashing to me is name calling, demeaning a player, telling them how much they suck, or making them feel like they suck by boasting of how good a player you are. If you insulted him/her, you stated it was not ur intention. Thus there is no "Bashing" in my opinion. Also in my opinion I don't think SE would think so either.

[rog]

Actually, I'm going to correct you on this.

Gear they have available and gear they choose are two different things.

For example, Triumph earrings were like 600k on my server back at lv 75. Merman's earrings were 200k.

Merman's earring was a better earring for TP and WS for mnk.

If you chose triumph, then yes, you'd be a bad monk.


I look at it this way.


Gear + Skill > anything else.

Having skill isn't enough. You can be the most skilled person in the world and let's say use all lv 50 gear and you just won't cut it.

You can have the best gear in the game and no skill, and still be horrible.

If you have good gear and know how to play your job, combine the gear and the skill, that's where you get the best players.



Here is my perspective.

Gear = Potential. The better gear you have, the better higher potential you will have as a player. Your skill level = how much of that potential you are reaching.
Pretty much this. While having good gear is important, it is not quite as important as having gear that makes sense. Using the example CS gave, you'd actually be better off using an nq coral earring, which is dirt cheap, than using a triumph earring. It's fine if you can't manage to hq every single peice of gear you have, but it is not fine to use nonsensical gear sets, such as tping with 0 haste. Anyone can get a proper nq gear set, very, very quickly and easily, without spending much. However it does require you to understand some very simple game mechanics, otherwise you might end up fulltiming 0 haste, and chr gear.

[Nepharite]

Math doesn't lie, you can tell which gear set beats out another gear set easily.

[HFX7686]

This game is basically all math. Math doesn't have opinions. It's either right or wrong.

[Naturebeckles]

People gear their jobs and play them in many different ways, this is true. Unfortunately, just because someone does something one way, for whatever reason, does not necessarily make it better or even viable. I could TP in all STR+ gear on my Monk, but I know I would be doing less damage that way, and thus be worse for it.

FFXI math has been figured out for a very long time. It is not difficult at all to look at two different sets and determine which one will do more damage, create more hate, cure more, or enfeeble more accurately or more potently.

Since I've been keeping up with other threads, a specific example which works out fine is your THF. You say you gear for Dex, Agi, and Chr with 0 Haste, and I am given the impression that you do not change gear between TP and Weaponskills, let alone Job Abilities. In general, I can tell you right now hitting faster would do more damage. Changing gear for weaponskills and job abilities (and thus not wearing CHR while TP'ing) would increase your damage. If you want the differences to be quantified, that is shown in numerical format, you can post exactly what it is you do use and I can compare it to an alternate set.

I'm not saying this to "Bash" you, and I do not feel that I am being rude or insulting at all. I am simply offering you the opportunity to improve.

I don't read you that way at all, so you're fine. I do have haste on my thf. It's just not my emphasis. I wear the Aurore Hat and Gloves (when I don't need my TH gloves), the earring from ZM with the enhancing dual wield effect and the Swift Belt. That's all the haste gear I wear.

[Cream_Soda]

I don't read you that way at all, so you're fine. I do have haste on my thf. It's just not my emphasis. I wear the Aurore Hat and Gloves (when I don't need my TH gloves), the earring from ZM with the enhancing dual wield effect and the Swift Belt. That's all the haste gear I wear.
So you're the one the OP is trying to protect.

[Naturebeckles]

So you're the one the OP is trying to protect.



Obviously.

Tired of hearing yourself talk yet? I bet you make yourself laugh.

[rog]

Obviously.

Tired of hearing yourself talk yet? I bet you make yourself laugh.
The day CS gets tired of hearing himself talk is the day the internet isn't worth bothering with.

[Cream_Soda]

The day CS gets tired of hearing himself talk is the day the internet isn't worth bothering with.
lol, so you've seen my threads in General? I've never seen you post there, lol.

[Nepharite]

Obviously.

Tired of hearing yourself talk yet? I bet you make yourself laugh.

I don't see why people get upset at others who offer advice to improve.
The biebs is right on this one.

[JagerForrester]

This game is basically all math. Math doesn't have opinions. It's either right or wrong.

Yes, but the ability to get certain pieces of equipment plays a role. It's very grindy to get the best gear, and sometimes players have to get by with what they can attain or afford with the resources they have.

[Nepharite]

Yes, but the ability to get certain pieces of equipment plays a role. It's very grindy to get the best gear, and sometimes players have to get by with what they can attain or afford with the resources they have.

Thats not the argument, the argument is that players have the option between a good piece and bad piece to use. They already have both pieces, but still choose to use the inferior piece.

[Naturebeckles]

I don't see why people get upset at others who offer advice to improve.
The biebs is right on this one.



Often it is the way in which that advice is given.

When somebody says: "You're a bad player because you don't do this or that", I'm likely to not listen to them. Great Guardian is good though. He's very good at giving helpful advice to others without sounding condescending towards them.

[rog]

lol, so you've seen my threads in General? I've never seen you post there, lol.
Yeah. Shit's amazing. I posted there occasional, but not much. Obviously can't post anymore, since i'm banned, etc.

[Nepharite]

Often it is the way in which that advice is given.

When somebody says: "You're a bad player because you don't do this or that", I'm likely to not listen to them. Great Guardian is good though. He's very good at giving helpful advice to others without sounding condescending towards them.


You can only attempt to offer correct advice so many times before its pointless.
After that, its about making the player with the incorrect mindset look bad so others don't follow their example.

Some people won't change their mindset no matter how wrong they are, so others try to make sure the correct info is out there.

[Naturebeckles]

After that, its about making the player with the incorrect mindset look bad so others don't follow their example.



It's not up to you or anybody else to make people look bad just so others don't follow them. Why don't you let people make up their minds for themselves? I highly doubt most of you actually "care" about most people who play the game anyway. You're going to do what you do and they're going to do what they do. Like-minded people will stick together. You don't need to make the extra effort to make others look bad. People like me will just sit here and think you do it just to make yourself feel better. No thanks.

[HFX7686]

Yes, but the ability to get certain pieces of equipment plays a role. It's very grindy to get the best gear, and sometimes players have to get by with what they can attain or afford with the resources they have.

This is not true. Elitist players don't want you to have the most uber of gear. They want you to have intelligent gear. You don't need to play 12 hours a day to get nice gear, especially now with Abyssea.

As long as you keep working towards good gear and you keep your gear choices that are available to you intelligent no one would have a problem.

It's when people delibrately gimp themselves because they've got some weird idea into their heads that there is a problem.

[rog]

It's not up to you or anybody else to make people look bad just so others don't follow them. Why don't you let people make up their minds for themselves? I highly doubt most of you actually "care" about most people who play the game anyway. You're going to do what you do and they're going to do what they do. Like-minded people will stick together. You don't need to make the extra effort to make others look bad. People like me will just sit here and think you do it just to make yourself feel better. No thanks.Because i don't want to see them do stupid things.

thought you were going to zzz?

[HFX7686]

It's not up to you or anybody else to make people look bad just so others don't follow them. Why don't you let people make up their minds for themselves? I highly doubt most of you actually "care" about most people who play the game anyway. You're going to do what you do and they're going to do what they do. Like-minded people will stick together. You don't need to make the extra effort to make others look bad. People like me will just sit here and think you do it just to make yourself feel better. No thanks.

That's really stupid. It is up to people who know what is right to make sure that people who are wrong are not listened to nor followed.

[Naturebeckles]

That's really stupid. It is up to people who know what is right to make sure that people who are wrong are not listened to nor followed.


Whatever. I don't listen to egotistical pricks who think they know better than everybody else and who think it's their job to make others look bad.

[Nepharite]

It's not up to you or anybody else to make people look bad just so others don't follow them. Why don't you let people make up their minds for themselves? I highly doubt most of you actually "care" about most people who play the game anyway. You're going to do what you do and they're going to do what they do. Like-minded people will stick together. You don't need to make the extra effort to make others look bad. People like me will just sit here and think you do it just to make yourself feel better. No thanks.

Some people want to be the best that they can be and look to forums like these for advice. If they get bad advice, then they aren't working towards what they want.

If your so into letting people decide what they want, then why do you care so much about this? You seem to be taking this rather personal, I haven't done any bashing against you.

Also I do a lot of random pickup stuff and I'd rather have the random people I do things with have a basic understanding of the game mechanics.

Getting false information is never ok, it skews what people will think on things.

[rog]

Whatever. I don't listen to egotistical pricks who think they know better than everybody else and who think it's their job to make others look bad.
Even when they actually do know better than you? Btw, weren't you going to bed 20 mins ago?

[Naturebeckles]

Some people want to be the best that they can be and look to forums like these for advice. If they get bad advice, then they aren't working towards what they want.
If your so into letting people decide what they want, then why do you care so much about this? You seem to be taking this rather personal, I haven't done any bashing against you.

Also I do a lot of random pickup stuff and I'd rather the random people I do things with have a basic understanding of the game mechanics.

Getting false information is never ok, it skews what people will think on things.

No.. you haven't bashed me. But you haven't read some of the other threads with me in them. lol

[JagerForrester]

This is not true. Elitist players don't want you to have the most uber of gear. They want you to have intelligent gear. You don't need to play 12 hours a day to get nice gear, especially now with Abyssea.

As long as you keep working towards good gear and you keep your gear choices that are available to you intelligent no one would have a problem.

It's when people delibrately gimp themselves because they've got some weird idea into their heads that there is a problem.

Can you give me an example of intelligent gear? Most elitist/hardcore players I see have gear that cost millions of gil or requires a well-strategic alliance.

[Naturebeckles]

Even when they actually do know better than you?



Yeah. Because if you're going to be a prick to me, you've automatically given me a reason to not respect you. If you don't show me respect and you belittle me, then I have no reason to listen to you, even if you're the most knowledgeable person on this earth about the game. That's why I like Great Guardian. He treats people with respect when he gives them advice.

[Nepharite]

Can you give me an example of intelligent gear? Most elitist/hardcore players I see have gear that cost millions of gil or requires a well-strategic alliance.

Its like people using ace's/askar helm over w.turban back in the day. Harder to get gear thats not as good.

[HFX7686]

Can you give me an example of intelligent gear? Most elitist/hardcore players I see have gear that cost millions of gil or requires a well-strategic alliance.

The elitist of the elite probably do have gear like that costs a lot of money. I'm not talking about their gear. I'm saying they're not going to make fun of a casual player if they've got average gear that is sensible and relatively up to date.

Also, I don't think that gear that comes from drops/events is that hard to get. Anyone can read the strategies that are all over the forums and wikis to figure out a decent plan to go after the nicer gear. You don't have to have it all right away if you're a casual player, you can do a little bit here and there (this is especially true with Abyssea but also applies to other places and times - Salvage was only 100 minutes long)

[rog]

Can you give me an example of intelligent gear? Most elitist/hardcore players I see have gear that cost millions of gil or requires a well-strategic alliance.
On a limited budget you should always upgrade things in order of cost efficiency. If you have a kraken club, and an nq ruby ring, you're doing it wrong. However, if you don't have much money, a ruby ring may be a good piece, depending on situation, etc.

If there is something better than what you have, that is easier/cheaper to get, than you are doingitrong. Example: trying to get a dalmatica solely for the refresh, even though pluviale is much easier to get.

Basically, you want to get reasonable NQ gear (which is incredibly cheap), and then upgrade it as you are able to, starting with whatever gets you the most for the least gil/time. At no point should you ever downgrade anything. As long as your base sets are good, this will always be acceptable.

Base sets should be pretty simple: tp should be haste > acc/da > atk > etc. Ws sets should take advantage of appropriate modifiers, and/or atk+acc, as appropriate.

[HFX7686]

Yeah. Because if you're going to be a prick to me, you've automatically given me a reason to not respect you. If you don't show me respect and you belittle me, then I have no reason to listen to you, even if you're the most knowledgeable person on this earth about the game. That's why I like Great Guardian. He treats people with respect when he gives them advice.

The first page or so of replies to you in any thread I've seen you post in have always been relatively polite, they simply disagree with the things you've said that are blatantly wrong. It's only your stubborn refusal to see that other people are right that is causing people to become frustrated with you and make fun of you.

[rog]

Yeah. Because if you're going to be a prick to me, you've automatically given me a reason to not respect you. If you don't show me respect and you belittle me, then I have no reason to listen to you, even if you're the most knowledgeable person on this earth about the game. That's why I like Great Guardian. He treats people with respect when he gives them advice.
You don't need to respect me, to listen to advice that could improve your gameplay.

If i offered you million dollars, would you refuse to take it because i was mean to you?

Btw, please don't let us keep you up all night. It's important to get a good nights sleep before class.

[Naturebeckles]

On a limited budget you should always upgrade things in order of cost efficiency. If you have a kraken club, and an nq ruby ring, you're doing it wrong. However, if you don't have much money, a ruby ring may be a good piece, depending on situation, etc.

If there is something better than what you have, that is easier/cheaper to get, than you are doingitrong. Example: trying to get a dalmatica solely for the refresh, even though pluviale is much easier to get.

Basically, you want to get reasonable NQ gear (which is incredibly cheap), and then upgrade it as you are able to, starting with whatever gets you the most for the least gil/time. At no point should you ever downgrade anything. As long as your base sets are good, this will always be acceptable.

Base sets should be pretty simple: tp should be haste > acc/da > atk > etc. Ws sets should take advantage of appropriate modifiers, and/or atk+acc, as appropriate.



You do know the flame ring is better than the ruby ring and not expensive anymore. right?

[Naturebeckles]

The first page or so of replies to you in any thread I've seen you post in have always been relatively polite, they simply disagree with the things you've said that are blatantly wrong. It's only your stubborn refusal to see that other people are right that is causing people to become frustrated with you and make fun of you.

I don't mind being made fun of. I mind being called a bad player. Gear choices are still based on opinion, even with the "facts" of the game mechanics. That's no reason to call me a bad player over it unless you see my on my war wearing a serket's ring.

[Naturebeckles]

You don't need to respect me, to listen to advice that could improve your gameplay.

If i offered you million dollars, would you refuse to take it because i was mean to you?

Btw, please don't let us keep you up all night. It's important to get a good nights sleep before class.

I'm a person of principle. But I highly doubt a person who is mean to me is going to offer me any sum of money whatsoever.

[rog]

You do know the flame ring is better than the ruby ring and not expensive anymore. right?
Yes. It was an example. And ruby ring is still acceptable for someone who just got their first job to 75+, and doesn't have much gil. 35k for +1 str is NOT a smart upgrade for someone with extremely little gil/gear.

[Naturebeckles]

Yes. It was an example. And flame ring is still acceptable for someone who just got their first job to 75+, and doesn't have much gil. 35k for +1 str is NOT a smart upgrade for someone with extremely little gil/gear.

Alright... just checking.

[HFX7686]

I don't mind being made fun of. I mind being called a bad player. Gear choices are still based on opinion, even with the "facts" of the game mechanics. That's no reason to call me a bad player over it unless you see my on my war wearing a serket's ring.

I think you're a lost cause. We've come full circle. Good gear is fact, not opinion.

[rog]

I'm a person of principle. But I highly doubt a person who is mean to me is going to offer me any sum of money whatsoever.Why not? I am being mean to you, but i'm still offering you knowledge which is very valuable. Just because i don't like you doesn't mean i don't want to see you do better.

[Nepharite]

I don't mind being made fun of. I mind being called a bad player. Gear choices are still based on opinion, even with the "facts" of the game mechanics. That's no reason to call me a bad player over it unless you see my on my war wearing a serket's ring.

TPing in acc gear over haste gear when your acc is already capped is the same as using a serket ring on a job that doesn't use mp.

[Naturebeckles]

I think you're a lost cause. We've come full circle. Good gear is fact, not opinion.

Yep. I'm a lost cause. Now stop bashing me.

(IE: saying I'm a bad player and calling me a moron... maybe not you, but others have).

[Naturebeckles]

Why not? I am being mean to you, but i'm still offering you knowledge which is very valuable. Just because i don't like you doesn't mean i don't want to see you do better.

I don't know many people who want to see others do better with anything in life if they don't like that person. You must be special if you honestly feel that way.

[rog]

Yep. I'm a lost cause. Now stop bashing me.

(IE: saying I'm a bad player and calling me a moron... maybe not you, but others have).
FACT: saying you are a bad player is not bashing you, it's simply stating a FACT.

[rog]

I don't know many people who want to see others do better with anything in life if they don't like that person. You must be special if you honestly feel that way.
Apparently not, since i've seen numerous people here insult you, and still offer you advice to help you improve yourself.

[Naturebeckles]

FACT: saying you are a bad player is not bashing you, it's simply stating a FACT.

No, it's an opinion Rog based on very little fact. They don't know me on the game, they haven't seen me play on the game. all they know is what gear I wear and they say I'm a bad player. That's not a fact. And the fact that most of you have that horribly confused makes me question the true intelligence of said players outside of their little game mechanics world.

[Loir]

its not even a point of principles anymore its just plain stubbornness

[rog]

No, it's an opinion Rog based on very little fact. They don't know me on the game, they haven't seen me play on the game. all they know is what gear I wear and they say I'm a bad player. That's not a fact. And the fact that most of you have that horribly confused makes me question the true intelligence of said players outside of their little game mechanics world.
You've told us enough to know that you are a bad player. Regardless, stating such is NOT bashing you.

[Naturebeckles]

You've told us enough to know that you are a bad player. Regardless, stating such is NOT bashing you.


Well, I take it as such. Obviously, my understanding of the English language is different than yours. One of these days, I'll find some kind of mistake you make to call you a bad player over and see how offended you get. I bet it won't feel very good.

[Naturebeckles]

"You've told us enough to know that you are a bad player."

My response to that is a big hearty F You, btw. As nice as you've been with many of your other posts, that one was shitty.

[rog]

Well, I take it as such. Obviously, my understanding of the English language is different than yours. One of these days, I'll find some kind of mistake you make to call you a bad player over and see how offended you get. I bet it won't feel very good.
Everyone makes mistakes, that's fine. I'm no different. I make mistakes all the time. That isn't what makes someone a bad player. You are a bad player because you intentionally go out of your way to do poorly, even though you know exactly what you need to do to improve.

[HFX7686]

Well, I take it as such. Obviously, my understanding of the English language is different than yours. One of these days, I'll find some kind of mistake you make to call you a bad player over and see how offended you get. I bet it won't feel very good.

I don't think you can handle criticism at all. Constructive or otherwise.

[rog]

"You've told us enough to know that you are a bad player."

My response to that is a big hearty F You, btw. As nice as you've been with many of your other posts, that one was shitty.
That's ok. I'm not here to be nice. I'm here to have fun, to educate those that know less than me, and hopefully learn a thing or two from those that know more than me.

[Naturebeckles]

Everyone makes mistakes, that's fine. I'm no different. I make mistakes all the time. That isn't what makes someone a bad player. You are a bad player because you intentionally go out of your way to do poorly, even though you know exactly what you need to do to improve.

I do not go intentionally go out of my way to do poorly. I'm just seriously done with people like you. I might as well be done with these forums. I bet you're so hardcore, your mom brings you a bedpan to shit in like in that South Park WoW episode.

[Naturebeckles]

I don't think you can handle criticism at all. Constructive or otherwise.

You're welcome to believe that. I've already told you I don't care what you think.

[Loir]

That's ok. I'm not here to be nice. I'm here to have fun, to educate those that know less than me, and hopefully learn a thing or two from those that know more than me.
Guess that change of M.O. will help in your last bastion of forum hope? Not making it sound negative, just missed reading some of your posts on other forums.

[rog]

I do not go intentionally go out of my way to do poorly. I'm just seriously done with people like you. I might as well be done with these forums. I bet you're so hardcore, your mom brings you a bedpan to shit in like in that South Park WoW episode.
You do though. Between not using haste gear, not using <stpt>, trying to balance a tp/ws set without swapping gear, etc, you really do.

I wish, my mom stays out of the basement :(

[rog]

Guess that change of M.O. will help in your last bastion of forum hope? Not making it sound negative, just missed reading some of your posts on other forums.What? What change? That has always been my motivation for posting on both alla and bg.

[Naturebeckles]

You do though. Between not using haste gear, not using <stpt>, trying to balance a tp/ws set without swapping gear, etc, you really do.

I wish, my mom stays out of the basement :(


I actually use <stpt> when I'm using my collaborator/accomplice macros. My whm is only level 45 and haven't played it in months. I have no other reason to use <stpt>. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to balance a tp/ws set up without swapping gear. I think Fondle is right. I think you guys really take the gear portion of this game way too seriously that you call people bad players over it.

[rog]

I actually use <stpt> when I'm using my collaborator/accomplice macros. My whm is only level 45 and haven't played it in months. I have no other reason to use <stpt>. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to balance a tp/ws set up without swapping gear. I think Fondle is right. I think you guys really take the gear portion of this game way too seriously that you call people bad players over it.What? You said you weren't aware of it earlier.

There is something wrong with trying to balance a tp+ws set. They require vastly different gear, and it is impossible to get a reasonable set that is good for both. The only way to do even decent at either, is to use different sets for both.

[JagerForrester]

Its like people using ace's/askar helm over w.turban back in the day.
W.Turban is 5% haste with +30 HP&MP while Ace's is 4% haste with +7ACC, +4STR, and -7EVA. The ACC+7 was a good reason to obtain that piece for the sacrifice of 1% of haste. What's the point of haste if you can't hit? More chances to hit? 1% wasn't worth the difference. Askar Helmet is 4% Haste with +4STR/DEX/VIT. I can consider that a poor choice of wearing with effort to obtain.


On a limited budget you should always upgrade things in order of cost efficiency. If you have a kraken club, and an nq ruby ring, you're doing it wrong. However, if you don't have much money, a ruby ring may be a good piece, depending on situation, etc.

If there is something better than what you have, that is easier/cheaper to get, than you are doingitrong. Example: trying to get a dalmatica solely for the refresh, even though pluviale is much easier to get.

Basically, you want to get reasonable NQ gear (which is incredibly cheap), and then upgrade it as you are able to, starting with whatever gets you the most for the least gil/time. At no point should you ever downgrade anything. As long as your base sets are good, this will always be acceptable.

Base sets should be pretty simple: tp should be haste > acc/da > atk > etc. Ws sets should take advantage of appropriate modifiers, and/or atk+acc, as appropriate.
You never know, they may have gotten lucky enough to own a Kraken Club as a casual player, lol. (Even though I know a party doing that BCNM wouldn't allow someone to keep such an expensive piece for one person unless the party made a deal or the current owner became untrustworthy.) I never considered Dalmatica as a very good item in my opinion, so I'll give you that. And loading up on WS modifiers should be a given too. But you brought up TP>ACC when I believe you should have enough ACC, like I was implying earlier in this post, where you hit 80-100% of the time, then load up on haste.

Sorry that I disagreed with some of the examples, but I am more understanding of what was meant when you said "intelligent" gear. Guess as long as teaching others how to properly gear themselves is understood, they are informed and can make their own decisions based on what is actually beneficial.

[Naturebeckles]

What? You said you weren't aware of it earlier.

There is something wrong with trying to balance a tp+ws set. They require vastly different gear, and it is impossible to get a reasonable set that is good for both. The only way to do even decent at either, is to use different sets for both.

I said I wasn't aware of <stal>. Go back and look if you don't believe me.

[rog]

You never know, they may have gotten lucky enough to own a Kraken Club as a casual player, lol.Of course. However if they don't sell it, then they are doinitrong. Getting a drop, and then not selling it is exactly the same as buying it. In either case you have x gil less than you could have if you either didn't buy the item, or if you sold it after getting the drop.


But you brought up TP>ACC when I believe you should have enough ACC, like I was implying earlier in this post, where you hit 80-100% of the time, then load up on haste.I was trying to give a general rule of thumb. If your acc is low, then yes, acc can in fact beat haste.

[rog]

I said I wasn't aware of <stal>. Go back and look if you don't believe me.
I'll take your word for it. It's ok though, you can just replace <stpt> with <stal> in my last post, and it will apply.

[Naturebeckles]

W.Turban is 5% haste with +30 HP&MP while Ace's is 4% haste with +7ACC, +4STR, and -7EVA. The ACC+7 was a good reason to obtain that piece for the sacrifice of 1% of haste. What's the point of haste if you can't hit? More chances to hit? 1% wasn't worth the difference. Askar Helmet is 4% Haste with +4STR/DEX/VIT. I can consider that a poor choice of wearing with effort to obtain.


You never know, they may have gotten lucky enough to own a Kraken Club as a casual player, lol. (Even though I know a party doing that BCNM wouldn't allow someone to keep such an expensive piece for one person unless the party made a deal or the current owner became untrustworthy.) I never considered Dalmatica as a very good item in my opinion, so I'll give you that. And loading up on WS modifiers should be a given too. But you brought up TP>ACC when I believe you should have enough ACC, like I was implying earlier in this post, where you hit 80-100% of the time, then load up on haste.

Sorry that I disagreed with some of the examples, but I am more understanding of what was meant when you said "intelligent" gear. Guess as long as teaching others how to properly gear themselves is understood, they are informed and can make their own decisions based on what is actually beneficial.

And this here is a perfect example of gear OPINIONS that don't make people bad players. Just as he said, people need ACC, otherwise haste does no good if they can't hit the mobs. I mean, somebody could have a great informative post about how haste mechanics work. But if everybody on the server all wore the same exact gear, this game would be boring as hell in many ways. That doesn't make me a moron, stupid, an idiot, or a bad player for not doing things a certain way.

[HFX7686]

And this here is a perfect example of gear OPINIONS that don't make people bad players. Just as he said, people need ACC, otherwise haste does no good if they can't hit the mobs. I mean, somebody could have a great informative post about how haste mechanics work. But if everybody on the server all wore the same exact gear, this game would be boring as hell in many ways. That doesn't make me a moron, stupid, an idiot, or a bad player for not doing things a certain way.

He said that if people need accuracy then they can sacrifice the haste. But if you don't have a problem with the accuracy then go with the haste. That isn't an opinion, just another math equation.

Your argument against wearing haste gear is now reduced to not wanting everyone to look the same?

[Naturebeckles]

He said that if people need accuracy then they can sacrifice the haste. But if you don't have a problem with the accuracy then go with the haste. That isn't an opinion, just another math equation.

Your argument against wearing haste gear is now reduced to not wanting everyone to look the same?

Uh, not exactly. But if you had it your way, everybody probably would look the same so everybody plays the same, everybody is happy, everybody is whatever... Yeah. Ok.

[rog]

Uh, not exactly. But if you had it your way, everybody probably would look the same so everybody plays the same, everybody is happy, everybody is whatever... Yeah. Ok.
There's a reason so many people use the same gear: Because it is the best.

[Hoshi]

I think part of the problem is we have a mixture of people from alla, ffxiah, and bg. Those three places have very different posting styles... it may take some time for us to develop a style for the official forums.

[Vinc]

I think part of the problem is we have a mixture of people from alla, ffxiah, and bg. Those three places have very different posting styles... it may take some time for us to develop a style for the official forums.

lol, I think the problem is most people don't realize beck is just bored/trolling.

[rog]

I think part of the problem is we have a mixture of people from alla, ffxiah, and bg. Those three places have very different posting styles... it may take some time for us to develop a style for the official forums.
I can't speak for ffxiah, but alla and bg weren't really that different. This is pretty much par for the course of both bg and alla.

[Cream_Soda]

I think part of the problem is we have a mixture of people from alla, ffxiah, and bg. Those three places have very different posting styles... it may take some time for us to develop a style for the official forums.
But I post on all three!

I even post on KI (if someone posts in mnk forums) and wiki from time to time!

[rog]

and wiki from time to time!
I enjoy watching idiots make fools of themselves as much as the next guy, but i don't think i could manage that :(

[Hoshi]

Lol I post on xiah and read bg... I avoid alla because it seems to often be full of bad info. It seemed to me that alla was a bit more friendly and accepting of strange ideas and casual players with this kind of bizarre subculture for forum ratings whereas bg is much more about math and neat things you can do in game and xiah is just a post whatever you feel like kind of place.

[GlobalVariable]

Stop Player Bashing I agree, I'm getting sick of people that start off with name calling as if that makes a point. I also wish some people wouldn't flip out over nothing and start using CAPS and rant like I've seen happen.

It reminds me of old threads on fan sites where one thread has an ok but not spectacular build being criticized by a player with the best of the best, and then later some player using absolute crap or half naked gets given some advice then rants for hours about "the elitists" because he thinks its the same thing.


And if my above text has somehow offended or insulted anyones intelligence in ways I can't comprehend, there is this handy ignore feature; you can use that and never see my text again and then we can't possibly bother each other.

For people who have seriously crossed the line, there is a report feature. It's that small triangle with an exclamation point at the bottom left of each post.

[rog]

I avoid alla because it seems to often be full of bad info. It seemed to me that alla was a bit more friendly and accepting of strange ideas and casual players
Maybe years ago, but not really anymore.

[Hoshi]

Ahh I see. I haven't tried to use alla since maybe 2007... My favorite forum was ki and once that died I pretty much lurked at bg.

[rog]

Yeah, if you go back earlier than that, alla was actually pretty terrible with the false information, etc. Now it's really not much different than bg. Quality of information is more or less the same. New information is overall definitely quicker on bg, but it always gets reposted to alla, without the 500 page threads.

[Hoshi]

Oh I see... I'll have to start lurking on alla as well then ^^

[Arcon]

lol

Itt: facts = opinions.


I really think you're one of those people who just like to "hear yourself talk".


So you're the one the OP is trying to protect.


Tired of hearing yourself talk yet? I bet you make yourself laugh.


That's really stupid.


Btw, please don't let us keep you up all night. It's important to get a good nights sleep before class.


I think you're a lost cause.


You've told us enough to know that you are a bad player.

All of this in a thread that was supposed to encourage people to be nice and respectful to others. Something that everyone agreed upon when signing up, something that's mentioned loud and clear (and twice) in the General Forum Rules (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/117-Welcome-to-Forum-General-Discussion!) and shouldn't even have to be discuss. Something that actually can't be discussed, yet people are still going on about it.

I would seriously like some moderator intervention sometimes, some of the comments people have made (both in this and countless other threads) clearly violate the rule about being respectful to others and I don't see a reason why this should be tolerated. And no, I don't mean everyone whom I've quoted above, although none of these posts were nice, but some of them were downright insulting. And that should not stand in this official forum.


That's ok. I'm not here to be nice.

Clearly. However, whatever your intentions for posting here are, it is still a rule that makes no exceptions.


However if they don't sell it, then they are doinitrong.

There is no doing it wrong in this regard. While there might be a way to deal more damage with the amount of money you have (both in cash and potential), that is not what's right or wrong. People play for different reasons, I once geared just to see how many attacks I could do in the least amount of time. On PLD. That was neither efficient nor effective and I was very well aware of that fact. However it was what I wanted to try. When I asked people what the lowest delay weapons were a PLD could use people immediately assumed it was "wrong" and started telling me what I should use instead. People always make assumptions about a person's intentions and values and most commonly identify them with their own. But that's not respecting my own decisions, I didn't impose them on anyone, I didn't assume they were "right". So who are you to tell me it's wrong how I wanna play?

I know you meant wrong in the sense of getting most out of your job for the potential money you have, but as I said, that's not what everyone cares about. What if someone just wants to feel like posessing something extraordinary, something that not many others have? Judging from what I read from you so far I'm pretty sure you'd immediately consider them needy and irrational. But what if they're just after achievements? Having decent overall gear or having one exceptional piece of gear and leave the rest out, and slowly build it up to meet their potential. What's wrong with that if that's how people wanna play?

And even if it was true, if they were really needy and irrational, pointing it out would belittle their feelings. Unless they go around and start telling everyone how great of a melee they are with their Kraken Club and 117 club skill, no one should look down on them for playing how they do.

You're making a general assumption, saying if people don't sell it they're wrong. That's not just false but also extremely unhelpful. I don't know why people would even say that.


FACT: saying you are a bad player is not bashing you, it's simply stating a FACT.

Whether it's being a fact or you pointing out it's a fact is very different. Naturebeckles never once assumed she was a great or even good player, she stated a few things about her gear and that she didn't know about <stal>. Even if the things she posted weren't satisfactory to some people, pointing out she is a bad player (which you really can't tell from what she has said) without any motivation (other than them disagreeing with you) is bashing. It is disrespectful and belittling of their abilities.

I really believe a moderator needs to step up and remind people of being nice occasionally, and intervene when it gets too far (which has already happened imo). This forum is already starting to go down the BG path, a gathering place for elitists who care about nothing but being right, ironically even when they're wrong. And that's not a place I'd like to see the official forums end up in.


And if my above text has somehow offended or insulted anyones intelligence in ways I can't comprehend, there is this handy ignore feature; you can use that and never see my text again and then we can't possibly bother each other.

Wait, what.... there is such a beautiful feature?

[Kuishen]

I would just like to come in here and give my opinion on the matter, as probably the majority of my posts are going to be considered "bashing somebody".

Pointing out flaws in logic, no matter how you do it, can be perceived as rude or disrespectful. It can't be avoided, especially when people claim their opinions on a matter are correct when all other evidence says they are not. On top of that, said people will go around spreading their opinions as fact or otherwise spread false information. That right there is the real crime, and if nothing is done about it then where would we be?

I, myself will explain something in a calm matter, as respectful as possible once. If the person continues to argue their obviously false opinions/views with me then I will degenerate into throwing insults eventually. So that is probably where most of my "bashing" comes from. It doesn't start out that way, but will get there eventually if people are being retarded.

Unfortunately there is no cure for stupidity, you can only point it out when it happens, otherwise people walk around thinking they are, well, not stupid. While there is nothing wrong with that in of itself, when they start presenting facts or opinions as correct when they are clearly incorrect, that is where I draw the line and have to say something.

EDIT: Apologizing in advance if that made little sense, late, tired, etc.

[Arcon]

Pointing out flaws in logic, no matter how you do it, can be perceived as rude or disrespectful. It can't be avoided, especially when people claim their opinions on a matter are correct when all other evidence says they are not. On top of that, said people will go around spreading their opinions as fact or otherwise spread false information. That right there is the real crime, and if nothing is done about it then where would we be?

I, myself will explain something in a calm matter, as respectful as possible once. If the person continues to argue their obviously false opinions/views with me then I will degenerate into throwing insults eventually. So that is probably where most of my "bashing" comes from. It doesn't start out that way, but will get there eventually if people are being retarded.

Unfortunately there is no cure for stupidity, you can only point it out when it happens, otherwise people walk around thinking they are, well, not stupid. While there is nothing wrong with that in of itself, when they start presenting facts or opinions as correct when they are clearly incorrect, that is where I draw the line and have to say something.

I don't disagree with that (although no one in this thread, for example, deserved it), but if that's the case and they don't wanna learn, report it to the mods. Excerpt from the General Forum Rules:

- Please do not post false, fabricated and/or fictitious information. It is unconstructive and will only confuse others. Please be careful with what you post and keep in mind that your words can affect others more than you may expect.

If someone is blatantly posting false information, that is indeed a violation of the forum rules, and as such should be dealt with by moderators, not other posters. Or well, it can be dealt with by them as well, as long as they adhere to the rules themselves. People shouldn't have to feel the need to resort to vigilante justice, which is why I encourage a stronger moderator involvement in here.

On the matter though, many of the things that have been mentioned in here are, in fact, opinion and not wrong or right.

[Kuishen]

I'm 60% sure that most of what I was referring to doesn't fall under that category, and the other 40% is not having faith that the mods will do anything constructive, given the track record with GMs and FFXI.

[GlobalVariable]

Wait, what.... there is such a beautiful feature?Yup. Click name, click view profile, click ignore user.

[Vinc]

Arcon the problem you and a lot of others fail to see is that you're not playing this game alone. If you are, then you should make this clear in every post that your opinion is subject to that. People ask others to gear properly for party situations - whether linkshell or pickup - because how anyone gears affects everyone in a party situation. To put it simply, wear what you want in the street, but when you go to church try to dress appropriately? If that makes sense.

Also, your calls for being nice are completely out of line. I am actually offended by you suggesting that I was being rude in my post, and I wish a moderator would step up and speak to you about that. I posted something that I found funny, and you are making me feel bad by implying that I was being mean. That's not fair.

[SNK]

I don't know many people who want to see others do better with anything in life if they don't like that person. You must be special if you honestly feel that way.

Actually I'm the same way as well. Just because I think you're being very thickheaded doesn't mean I don't want to see you to do better. I think it was you in another thread but the whole thing about not wanting a player to gearswap made me really raise an eyebrow.

Gearswaps for every job is a must if you want to do it right? I deal with people who gearswap a ton as a WHM and as an RDM no problems handling them even when I cast spells manually. You just have to pay attention and be on the ball.

[Arcon]

Yup. Click name, click view profile, click ignore user.

I love you.


Arcon the problem you and a lot of others fail to see is that you're not playing this game alone. If you are, then you should make this clear in every post that your opinion is subject to that. People ask others to gear properly for party situations - whether linkshell or pickup - because how anyone gears affects everyone in a party situation. To put it simply, wear what you want in the street, but when you go to church try to dress appropriately? If that makes sense.

That's true, that's why everyone should try to contribute and look out for others. This depends on your personal tolerance as well though, if someone's play style is making him a really terrible team player, then you should just replace them. Then they simply aren't fir for team play. However, if his personal choices just make him an average player instead of a good or great one, does it really matter that much? I guess it's a problem of drawing the line, if your survival was at stake because of someone elses play style, believe me, I know how annoying that is. But if it drops your EXP average from 25k/h to 23k/h, 'cause a WAR wants to use a polearm on colibris but is ill-equipped for that, is that worth getting annoyed over? Guess that depends on the player as well, personally I wouldn't care.

I love to try stupid things on my character, just for the sake of trying something new, even if I know it's worse than my current playstyle. But whenever it comes to party situations or any kind of collaborative effort, I play to the best of my abilities. I think everyone should try that, however I don't blame them if they don't. Everyone has a right to play whatever way they want. If it's really that much of a bother, they will realize that people won't want to team up with them anymore. And then it's up to them whether they feel the need to change around others or get used to playing solo most of the time.


Also, your calls for being nice are completely out of line. I am actually offended by you suggesting that I was being rude in my post, and I wish a moderator would step up and speak to you about that. I posted something that I found funny, and you are making me feel bad by implying that I was being mean. That's not fair.

While you're probably only being half-serious about this, I'll still give you a serious reply, because that's something I wanted to mention sooner anyway.

People often don't intend to be rude or offensive, but others interpret it that way regardless. Sometimes your intentions and other people's perceptions differ. Excerpt from the forum rules:

- Since you cannot see each other on the forum, your words may be taken the wrong way or may have a negative emotional affect on others. Please try to maintain a polite manner and review your entry before you post.

People often take things personally when they shouldn't. While this certainly isn't someone's fault for posting (and it's happened in here too), they should still try to put themselves in the reader's shoes and try to see what it may look like to them.

You may have only mentioned something funny, someone else may have taken it as you belittling their opinion or implying that they're stupid because you said "fact = opinion", which they didn't actually say, or imply, but you inferred from their statement. So to them it seemed aggressive and rude. You could brush that off by saying "your fault for taking it the wrong way", but as I said (and as it says in the rules) calm and civilized conversation requires both/all parties to think about others' feelings before posting.

[Greatguardian]

I don't think any sort of moderator action is necessary for pretty much every post you quoted. There is blatant cursing and berating, and then there is "No. You're wrong. TP'ing in CHR gear is bad. Refusing to learn makes you bad." They are worlds apart. This game is rated for players age 13 and over, which means we are given cause to assume that no one posting here is still a child. There is no reason for an adult or young adult to equate being told "You are gearing incorrectly, you are wrong" with berating and abuse. Telling someone that the number 7 is larger than the number 3, even though they vehemently believe the number 3 is a significantly larger number, is not rude. It may be their "Opinion" that the number 3 is much larger than the number 7, but they are wrong.

There is a difference between stating a fact and rubbing it in someone's face, and I would greatly appreciate it if people did not demean the value of the words "Rude" and "Bashing" by applying it to anyone who posts with half an ounce of force. All it does is make it more difficult to identify legitimate complaints.

With that said, there is very little way to actually enforce the rules regarding the spread of misinformation. For the most part, players who post about "Haste being useless" generally actually believe it for some reason. It is difficult, from a moderation standpoint, to fault someone for something they actually do believe is true information. Secondly, the word "Opinion" is thrown around so much I don't even know where to start. There are legitimate opinions, such as "Some Corsairs prefer to Shoot for TP, while others prefer to Melee". Then there are lies or facts that people claim are "Opinions" in order to hide behind the word, such as "Sidewinder does more damage than Split Shot" or "STR is better to TP in on Drk than Haste." Someone could claim that "Sidewinder doing more damage than Split Shot is just your opinion". That would not make it true. It is still a fact. Someone could also claim that "STR is better than Haste for DRK to TP in is my opinion." That would not make it true. Haste is still better than STR for DRK to TP in.

No amount of varied opinions can make the number 3 greater than the number 7. Trying to calmly reason with people who utilize such nonsense is bound to fray anyone's nerves, and will just cause post quality to degrade.

If you want an ideal solution, require people to post some sort of proof of their claims before challenging the tried and true norms. You may like your Shinsoku more than a Masamune, but unless you can show in some empirically acceptable fashion that it's a better weapon, then it is a worse weapon and you will just have to accept that. I do not care if you run around in 0% Haste and a Heart Snatcher. But don't try to pass it off as good, it's not. Live with it, change it, or prove that it's better. There are no other options.

Edit: Harsher than intended maybe, but the point stands. It's incredibly difficult to hold a civil discussion in the presence of nonsense. A PM function would certainly help get rid of the clutter of 10 people and 5 trolls answering the same question at once.

[Naturebeckles]

Actually I'm the same way as well. Just because I think you're being very thickheaded doesn't mean I don't want to see you to do better. I think it was you in another thread but the whole thing about not wanting a player to gearswap made me really raise an eyebrow.

Gearswaps for every job is a must if you want to do it right? I deal with people who gearswap a ton as a WHM and as an RDM no problems handling them even when I cast spells manually. You just have to pay attention and be on the ball.

My husband gear swaps a ton on his mage jobs, so I know what you're saying. I just try not to do it on my DD jobs and I try to keep my gear balanced. I'm no longer going to argue the gear swap thing with people who are going to call me a bad player and throw other insults at me for being stupid. I'm just about done with these forums. The only reason I still read them right now is for Frost, Great Guardian, Xilk and others who revive human decency for me.

[Juri_Licious]

People should just learn that you can't change people.

You can only change yourself.

[Naturebeckles]

All of this in a thread that was supposed to encourage people to be nice and respectful to others. Something that everyone agreed upon when signing up, something that's mentioned loud and clear (and twice) in the General Forum Rules (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/117-Welcome-to-Forum-General-Discussion!) and shouldn't even have to be discuss. Something that actually can't be discussed, yet people are still going on about it.

I would seriously like some moderator intervention sometimes, some of the comments people have made (both in this and countless other threads) clearly violate the rule about being respectful to others and I don't see a reason why this should be tolerated. And no, I don't mean everyone whom I've quoted above, although none of these posts were nice, but some of them were downright insulting. And that should not stand in this official forum.



Clearly. However, whatever your intentions for posting here are, it is still a rule that makes no exceptions.



There is no doing it wrong in this regard. While there might be a way to deal more damage with the amount of money you have (both in cash and potential), that is not what's right or wrong. People play for different reasons, I once geared just to see how many attacks I could do in the least amount of time. On PLD. That was neither efficient nor effective and I was very well aware of that fact. However it was what I wanted to try. When I asked people what the lowest delay weapons were a PLD could use people immediately assumed it was "wrong" and started telling me what I should use instead. People always make assumptions about a person's intentions and values and most commonly identify them with their own. But that's not respecting my own decisions, I didn't impose them on anyone, I didn't assume they were "right". So who are you to tell me it's wrong how I wanna play?

I know you meant wrong in the sense of getting most out of your job for the potential money you have, but as I said, that's not what everyone cares about. What if someone just wants to feel like posessing something extraordinary, something that not many others have? Judging from what I read from you so far I'm pretty sure you'd immediately consider them needy and irrational. But what if they're just after achievements? Having decent overall gear or having one exceptional piece of gear and leave the rest out, and slowly build it up to meet their potential. What's wrong with that if that's how people wanna play?

And even if it was true, if they were really needy and irrational, pointing it out would belittle their feelings. Unless they go around and start telling everyone how great of a melee they are with their Kraken Club and 117 club skill, no one should look down on them for playing how they do.

You're making a general assumption, saying if people don't sell it they're wrong. That's not just false but also extremely unhelpful. I don't know why people would even say that.



Whether it's being a fact or you pointing out it's a fact is very different. Naturebeckles never once assumed she was a great or even good player, she stated a few things about her gear and that she didn't know about <stal>. Even if the things she posted weren't satisfactory to some people, pointing out she is a bad player (which you really can't tell from what she has said) without any motivation (other than them disagreeing with you) is bashing. It is disrespectful and belittling of their abilities.

I really believe a moderator needs to step up and remind people of being nice occasionally, and intervene when it gets too far (which has already happened imo). This forum is already starting to go down the BG path, a gathering place for elitists who care about nothing but being right, ironically even when they're wrong. And that's not a place I'd like to see the official forums end up in.



Wait, what.... there is such a beautiful feature?

Arcon.... I LOVE YOU.

[hadeed]

I've seen several post already where someone has posted something (a suggestion) and a more Skilled player has decided it was a good idea to bash the player for his/her inabilities.

This forum was started for general game discussions/suggestions. Not meant to demean a player for his/her thoughts. You either agree with them or you don't. No need to make yourself feel big because you can do something another player can't by telling them how pathetic they are.

I really don't think SE started this site to read about how good you are and see how much you rub it in to those who can't. I'm pretty sure they started this site so people can give they're suggestions to things they think need to be changed. Idea to improve game play. Pass on your knowledge and skill to inexperienced players. Not constantly bash them.

So please. Keep it polite. Try to stay on topic. If you agree, but want to add something to the idea to make it better, do so. If you disagree with it, disagree and explain why the CHANGE wouldn't increase game play, but keep it civil to other players and stop bashing them b/c they are having difficulties with something.


nice talk ,equipment bash , play style bash all this should stop from people, the game designed not for one style. and the "lol JOB" thing is really the worst thing in FF11 because of it people stopped playing certain jobs even because people don't invite it to their events or just because of personal taste.

[Arcon]

There is a difference between stating a fact and rubbing it in someone's face, and I would greatly appreciate it if people did not demean the value of the words "Rude" and "Bashing" by applying it to anyone who posts with half an ounce of force. All it does is make it more difficult to identify legitimate complaints.

While I agree with most of what you said and having moderated forums in the past I know it's not easy to judge what should and shouldn't be removed or penalized. However, there have been several actually rude comments on here as well as bashing. There are arguably worse things to do, but that doesn't make them better. Anything you say without disregard for another person's feelings, often even knowing they'll be upset by it, is rude. Being rude alone isn't that bad, I never claimed that, still it's not something I like to see on here. Bashing means continuously and deliberately being rude, hurtful, insulting or offensive to someone, which has also happened in this thread and several others.

Regardless of people's beliefs, making people feel stupid for believing what they do isn't what should be going on here. I know that some things are fact, and that you can't and shouldn't argue with it, but that's not what I'm referring to. If someone says they believe in something and will do it, then that's their own decision. And you can point out that it's wrong, not effective or whatever, and provide arguments for that. Now, that person has two ways to react, either they accept that other people think differently (regardless of what is true or not) and leave it at that, or they keep insisting on their own opinion, disregarding arguments and proofs against it. If a person does the latter, it's them who have crossed the line. I still wouldn't be rude to them, but I don't particularly care if others are, 'cause they're asking for an argument. I think such threads should simply be closed by a moderator because they're bound to escalate.

My problem lies with people being rude to someone even if they don't reply at all. Calling them noobs and stupid, without them ever saying anything again, just for mentioning what they believe, without even trying to spread that to others. And that has happened a lot, in almost every job specific forum I checked and plenty in here too. There's no excuse for that, people need to respect others, regardless of their beliefs.

[Greatguardian]

My problem lies with people being rude to someone even if they don't reply at all. Calling them noobs and stupid, without them ever saying anything again, just for mentioning what they believe, without even trying to spread that to others. And that has happened a lot, in almost every job specific forum I checked and plenty in here too. There's no excuse for that, people need to respect others, regardless of their beliefs.

Having stayed out of most of the job specific forums aside from Monk, I've probably missed most of this. I tend to stick around General Discussion, where for the most part I don't see players getting too disgruntled unless they're on page 2-3 of the same person insisting that "X > Y" when it's easily shown that Y > X.

If a player were to post for the first time in a thread saying something like "I like Askar head", and then not press the issue, I do agree that it would be too harsh to jump on them for it. For the most part, that I've seen, such exclamations are typically answered with something like "Just a heads up, Turban is a lot better than Askar head for damage output." If people want to know, they know. If they don't, they can ignore it and either talk about something else or go to another thread. Starting pointless arguments over little things like that just make it free game, and I suppose I was under the impression a fair amount of people were complaining about being "bashed on" in the middle of such things. Things like Fondle's posts in the Haste thread comparing that mess to psychological abuse just diminish my respect for the legitimacy of many of these complaints.

[Amerlyn]

Wow... my thread really went off topic for a long time.

[HFX7686]

People often don't intend to be rude or offensive, but others interpret it that way regardless. Sometimes your intentions and other people's perceptions differ. Excerpt from the forum rules:

- Since you cannot see each other on the forum, your words may be taken the wrong way or may have a negative emotional affect on others. Please try to maintain a polite manner and review your entry before you post.

People often take things personally when they shouldn't. While this certainly isn't someone's fault for posting (and it's happened in here too), they should still try to put themselves in the reader's shoes and try to see what it may look like to them.

I think that the onus falls mostly on the reader rather than the poster, especially when considering the posts in this thread and the ones in the haste thread. For the most part every reply to Naturebeckles near the beginning of the thread were very polite and just trying to explain why what she was saying was wrong. It was actually her who started the bashing, name-calling, and insulting.

Really, readers have to stop being so darned sensitive to being corrected.

I think that this is something that has become part of our society today. It has become impolite and rude to correct someone, even if they are incorrect.

[Amerlyn]

You can only change yourself.

While I agree with this, I would still like to add to it. Its true only person can choose to change themselves. But that doesn't mean the people around them, what they do, what they say, doesn't effect that change.

I thought about this on my 30 min drive I just had. I agree people shouldn't pass out false information. I agree they should be corrected if they do not know any better. But what I do not agree with is forcing it on them. Belittling a person is not going to to force them to change they're mind. It only serves to vent your own frustration for not being able to change they're point of view. If you really don't agree with what a person says, then challenge them to prove it.. politely. If they are passing out false information that they deem true (no matter what facts you place in front of them), and refuse to believe you, the most you can accomplish to make certain that misinformation doesn't continue to spread (b/c it will no matter how upset you get with them), then just make sure you make a note of it on they're thread. Example: I don't believe this thread to be entirely accurate or true, this is what I believe, here are the facts to prove it. --- B/c really in the end the person who is reading the thread and the comments is gonna be the one to decide which to believe, and no matter how much you complain or how much you scream that is gonna do nothing to change that fact. In the end all you can do is state your opinion/ the facts on this forum, it is up the the reader to decide to follow them or not.

Also from an earlier posting and I agree with her/him. In my opinion people will respond positively if you keep your post polite than getting riled up and belittling and insulting them, all you do is fuel the flames. So just respond politely, argue as politely as possible and if they still refuse to listen then challenge them. If they believe this gear is better, then challenge to try your gear set up. If they still refuse to believe... oh well you tried, any further arguments and insults is pointless, just leave it alone. And if someone happens to read the posting I guarantee you if they read your posts and see u being polite on the subject and the other person becoming hostile, they are more likely to agree with you. On the other hand if your the person being insulting and getting worked up, they dismiss what you have to say and believe what the user has posted. Again this comes down to the simple fact, that you cannot force your opinion (even back by facts) onto people, you can only put out there and let them decide what to believe. So don't get worked up, just move on.

On the note of bashing. Bashing is intentionally insulting or being cruel to another player. You can't help it at times. You will slip up, everyone does. But if you do happen to slip and unintentionally bash someone and they become offended, then apologize to them. Its not going to make you the lesser person because you apologized. Its better to apologize than to fuel a fire you unintentionally set. If you set it intentionally then there is the problem. And I'm sure players will notice and eventually the moderators will too. I'm also certain that if u set it intentionally you probably are going to back it up with "I don't care", if thats the case, then just ignore my posts and move on.

Also, this thread wasn't started to give reasons to break the rules. This was started to make people aware of ways to avoid bashing another player and possibly solve an issue. The rule cannot be discussed, it is a permanent feature of this forum. You either choose to follow it, or don't (in which case you will eventually face the consequences).

I'm not saying I am perfect either. Not saying I am not quilty of slipping up and bashing a player. I am just saying we should strive to avoid this. A perfect example is me and GlobalVariable last night. I was tired, he responded to one of my posts and I took offense over nothing and walked a thin line of bashing him when I replied. After sleeping it off I realized what I had done and apologized to him and reinterated myself to try and explain my reasoning. In the end I also challenged him and others to improve on an idea. Because honestly I felt if they were going to disagree b/c they didn't like one feature of an idea, they should think of a better way to improve on the feature. Don't just disagree with an idea b/c you don't like one part of the suggestion, add to the suggestion. Because all you are saying is "I agree with the idea, but b/c I don't like this part i'm gonna disagree on the entire thing". Improve on it. That was my challenge.

Thats it for me now. I'm off topic. The Topic is "Stop Bashing Players" the idea behind it, is not ways to get away with it (as it seems to me thats what people are trying to argue is a reason to bash players, there is no reason, never). Its ways to avoid it, and if you find u have bashed a player to at least learn to apologize for it.

[Ryland]

People aren't worse players because of the gear they choose. They're worse because of how they play. Whms that don't do anything but cast cure, no matter how great the gear they have on are still bad Whms.

You're right. They should be casting haste too.

[Naturebeckles]

The truth can be read on the haste thread if anybody wants to go read all the nonsense. yes. My first post on the thread was a trollish statement.

But after hours of the arguing, the first person I said sounded stupid was the one who said that anybody who didn't wear haste gear was the same as somebody who wears slow gear. And I said that anybody who agreed with that statement was an idiot. I was trying to keep my cool and argue from experience/perspective for a long time before that point. And reading that as proof that I was stupid as a player for not wearing a bunch of haste gear just pushed that last button of mine. I'm sorry if anybody read my very first post as an insult or as bashing. it wasn't meant to be read that way other than to poke fun at "haste whores". But to outright lie that the troll started name calling and bashing first? That's hilarious. I never once in that entire thread told somebody else that their game play was wrong. I spent that time defending my own decision of game play style, not putting everybody else down.

[HFX7686]

The truth can be read on the haste thread if anybody wants to go read all the nonsense. yes. My first post on the thread was a trollish statement.

So yes, you did in fact initiate the trolling on the haste thread.


But after hours of the arguing, the first person I said sounded stupid was the one who said that anybody who didn't wear haste gear was the same as somebody who wears slow gear. And I said that anybody who agreed with that statement was an idiot. I was trying to keep my cool and argue from experience/perspective for a long time before that point. And reading that as proof that I was stupid as a player for not wearing a bunch of haste gear just pushed that last button of mine. I'm sorry if anybody read my very first post as an insult or as bashing. it wasn't meant to be read that way other than to poke fun at "haste whores". But to outright lie that the troll started name calling and bashing first? That's hilarious. I never once in that entire thread told somebody else that their game play was wrong. I spent that time defending my own decision of game play style, not putting everybody else down.

You advocated a play style that is outright wrong and was proven wrong multiple times by multiple people. At this point you went bonkers and started accusing everyone of bashing you and being a troll because they were explaining why you were wrong. You have equated people correcting your misinformation with insults and put-downs.

[Greatguardian]

The difference between someone wearing 25% Slow and 0% Haste is the same as the difference between someone wearing 0% Haste and 25% Haste, which was his reasoning and is absolutely correct. It's a matter of opportunity cost. It would be like saying "Wearing Morgana's Choker and Meridian ring at the same time is okay in a +HP build because the +HP on the ring cancels out the -HP on the neck." No, it doesn't. You still have 40 less HP than you would have had without the choker. It doesn't matter whether or not your HP is less than your base max HP, it is still less than your maximum max HP.

Edit: So this doesn't start another 20-page crap fest, Nature advocated a *Gearing* style which is wrong. Her actual playstyle hasn't come into play, which I think is the reason she's being so defensive. It's a hop, skip, and a jump for most people to go from "Insisting on gearing incorrectly" > "Not wanting to improve" > "Being a bad player for not wanting to get better", but I don't think that line of thought is being followed by some and it is causing some confusion.

[Naturebeckles]

Edit: So this doesn't start another 20-page crap fest, Nature advocated a *Gearing* style which is wrong. Her actual playstyle hasn't come into play, which I think is the reason she's being so defensive. It's a hop, skip, and a jump for most people to go from "Insisting on gearing incorrectly" > "Not wanting to improve" > "Being a bad player for not wanting to get better", but I don't think that line of thought is being followed by some and it is causing some confusion.

Correct and thanks for posting that. 25% slow + is gear is still swinging slower than somebody not wearing slow or haste gear, which does not make it the same. Just... sayin'.

[Samunai]

i only used twat for a general sense of pointing out to a group of ppl.... more not :o

for the rest i really gave in some threads my opinion... but again in general senses not directly to one person. =)

[Greatguardian]

Correct and thanks for posting that. 25% slow + is gear is still swinging slower than somebody not wearing slow or haste gear, which does not make it the same. Just... sayin'.

And 0% Haste gear is still slower than 25% haste gear, which does make it the same. If you're saying that the difference between 25% haste and 25% slow is larger than the difference between 25% haste and 0% haste, you are absolutely correct. However, they both still constitute massive losses in damage. It's like saying getting a 50 on an exam is better than getting a 30 on an exam, when others are trying to say it would be better to just get a 90 on the exam.

[Nepharite]

25% slow vs 0% haste/slow = 0% haste/slow vs 25% haste

[Naturebeckles]

And 0% Haste gear is still slower than 25% haste gear, which does make it the same. If you're saying that the difference between 25% haste and 25% slow is larger than the difference between 25% haste and 0% haste, you are absolutely correct. However, they both still constitute massive losses in damage. It's like saying getting a 50 on an exam is better than getting a 30 on an exam, when others are trying to say it would be better to just get a 90 on the exam.

well, that is true. I can't remember if it was this thread or another, but I really am not bothered by being outperformed by other players who are haste geared. I'm just bothered by that hop, skip, jump thinking you mentioned before.

[Nepharite]

well, that is true. I can't remember if it was this thread or another, but I really am not bothered by being outperformed by other players who are haste geared. I'm just bothered by that hop, skip, jump thinking you mentioned before.

I think what gets people is that unwillingness to improve one self.

[Naturebeckles]

I think what gets people is that unwillingness to improve one self.

I don't get why they care so much that I'm not improving into the kind of player they think I should be.

[Nepharite]

I don't get why they care so much that I'm not improving into the kind of player they think I should be.

It comes off as lazy, people don't like lazy people. I dunno.
Everytime I see a poorly geared person I wonder if they don't know any better, are lazy, or just don't care.
I do worry that new people will look at said poorly geared lv90 and start gearing that way as well.
The current skill level and understanding of game mechanics by the current playerbase is already not where it should be.

[Vinc]

I don't get why they care so much that I'm not improving into the kind of player they think I should be.

Your maximum potential is their maximum potential when you're in their party. Weakest link, etc.

[Darka]

It's not really that, more like nobody cares what you personally wear unless it affects them. Ie:

If you party with someone wearing bad choices of equipment, you infringe on THEIR time and they will probably complain.
If you claim X is > than Y if in truth Y is > X then you will be corrected, further contradiction will cause people to bash you
Edit: Misinforming players with poor knowledge about the game, nobody likes seeing this

Remember, it's a community game, if your "playstyle" hinders another player, they will let you know.

[Naturebeckles]

It's not really that, more like nobody cares what you personally wear unless it affects them. Ie:

If you party with someone wearing bad choices of equipment, you infringe on THEIR time and they will probably complain.
If you claim X is > than Y if in truth Y is > X then you will be corrected, further contradiction will cause people to bash you

Remember, it's a community game, if your "playstyle" hinders another player, they will let you know.

Ok, (to both you and Vinc)... but I don't think I play on the same server as any of them (except Cream_Soda). So... it's not like their personal game play is affected by me.

[Greatguardian]

Ok, (to both you and Vinc)... but I don't think I play on the same server as any of them (except Cream_Soda). So... it's not like their personal game play is affected by me.

I doubt it's so much that they are personally being infringed upon, but that they worry that your comments will move other people to do things that would infringe upon them. To keep the metaphor going, it would be like being in a study session and having someone say "You only need to get a 70 to pass the test, I'm fine with passing" when other people are trying to help others get A's. Of course the tutors are going to be upset about it. It doesn't bother them if you choose to get a 70 on your exam and be okay with passing, but it does bother them when you talk about it in front of other students who may then decide that it's okay to get a 70 instead of studying and getting an A.

[Darka]

Ok, (to both you and Vinc)... but I don't think I play on the same server as any of them (except Cream_Soda). So... it's not like their personal game play is affected by me.

It doesn't really have to be their own personal time, most will typically assume that others' personal time is being wasted, and will speak out about it. Most people have been in those situations, and tend to dislike people who won't meet normal community expectations. I'm not trying to bash, but it really is a fix it or deal with it scenario.

[Darka]

I doubt it's so much that they are personally being infringed upon, but that they worry that your comments will move other people to do things that would infringe upon them.

Yeah that's a point too ^ There's a bad case of blind leading the blind in XI, another cause for bashing

[Naturebeckles]

I doubt it's so much that they are personally being infringed upon, but that they worry that your comments will move other people to do things that would infringe upon them. To keep the metaphor going, it would be like being in a study session and having someone say "You only need to get a 70 to pass the test, I'm fine with passing" when other people are trying to help others get A's. Of course the tutors are going to be upset about it. It doesn't bother them if you choose to get a 70 on your exam and be okay with passing, but it does bother them when you talk about it in front of other students who may then decide that it's okay to get a 70 instead of studying and getting an A.

Well then it's other people's own fault for letting a person who is okay with getting a 70 convince them to do the same if they would otherwise want to get a 90. That's not the fault of the person who is okay with a 70. That person should not strive to do better just for the sake of other people. It's always what's about what you're okay with your own life. I don't live my life to please other people in RL (to an extent) and I don't do it in the game either.

[Naturebeckles]

Yeah that's a point too ^ There's a bad case of blind leading the blind in XI, another cause for bashing

I really hate that you use other people's failures (intentional or not) as a cause for bashing them.

[Darka]

I really hate that you use other people's failures (intentional or not) as a cause for bashing them.

Don't misunderstand me, I didn't say anything about me. It's not a failing cause that sparks people off. More like if Player A joins a party, is informed that whatever he/she is doing/wearing is not correct, then refuses to acknowledge it or improve that pisses people off. If Player B joins, doing/wearing the same things, is informed he/she is doing it wrong, but seeks advice/help, he/she will be recieved just as well as a perfectly geared player.

You don't HAVE to change anything, but people will not always like you for it. I said earlier, it's a community game, reputation can be quite important.

[Alkalinehoe]

I don't get why they care so much that I'm not improving into the kind of player they think I should be.

If you party strictly with friends and they accept how you play, then go ahead and play however you want. But I feel most of the people here, including me, who have tried to help gear yourself better would probably kick you from the party the moment they saw that you were fulltiming your gear. You said it yourself, the math is correct. It shows just exactly how powerful a DD can be when geared properly. Not gearing properly just adds more time to whatever you're trying to do (be it seal parties, dynamis, nyzul isle, HNMs, abyssea, etc) and most people just want to get it over with asap or in the case where you're spamming something like a seal nm, try to get as many kills in before people have to leave.

Yes, we get that having skill in how your job works is important. But having skill and having good gear makes a tremendous difference over someone who has skill but does not gear appropriately.

[Naturebeckles]

If you party strictly with friends and they accept how you play, then go ahead and play however you want. But I feel most of the people here, including me, who have tried to help gear yourself better would probably kick you from the party the moment they saw that you were fulltiming your gear. You said it yourself, the math is correct. It shows just exactly how powerful a DD can be when geared properly. Not gearing properly just adds more time to whatever you're trying to do (be it seal parties, dynamis, nyzul isle, HNMs, abyssea, etc) and most people just want to get it over with asap or in the case where you're spamming something like a seal nm, try to get as many kills in before people have to leave.

Yes, we get that having skill in how your job works is important. But having skill and having good gear makes a tremendous difference over someone who has skill but does not gear appropriately.

I can accept that. this conversation is going much better than it did last night.

[Nepharite]

Ok using the same ideals you use.
Player A doesn't want to gear corectly, but wants to do X event.
Player B is doing X event and player A ask to joins. After looking at players A's gear, player B doesn't allow player A to come.
Player A calls player B an elitist, pretty much player bashing player B because he doesn't want the burden of player A.

How is this acceptable for player A to call player B an elitist and not for player B to call player A a poorly geared player?

[Naturebeckles]

Ok using the same ideals you use.
Player A doesn't want to gear corectly, but wants to do X event.
Player B is doing X event and player A ask to joins. After looking at players A's gear, player B doesn't allow player A to come.
Player A calls player B an elitist, pretty much player bashing player B because he doesn't want the burden of player A.

How is this acceptable for player A to call player B an elitist and not for player B to call player A a poorly geared player?

Yeah well. last night people weren't just calling me a poorly geared player. They were calling me a bad player. Period. If they had left it at "you're a poorly geared player" I would not have gotten so offended or defensive.

[Sp1cyryan]

I've seen several post already where someone has posted something (a suggestion) and a more Skilled player has decided it was a good idea to bash the player for his/her inabilities.

This forum was started for general game discussions/suggestions. Not meant to demean a player for his/her thoughts. You either agree with them or you don't. No need to make yourself feel big because you can do something another player can't by telling them how pathetic they are.

I really don't think SE started this site to read about how good you are and see how much you rub it in to those who can't. I'm pretty sure they started this site so people can give they're suggestions to things they think need to be changed. Idea to improve game play. Pass on your knowledge and skill to inexperienced players. Not constantly bash them.

So please. Keep it polite. Try to stay on topic. If you agree, but want to add something to the idea to make it better, do so. If you disagree with it, disagree and explain why the CHANGE wouldn't increase game play, but keep it civil to other players and stop bashing them b/c they are having difficulties with something.

There is a reason these forums are being openly mocked from every corner of the web on FFXI sites.

[Greatguardian]

Ok using the same ideals you use.
Player A doesn't want to gear corectly, but wants to do X event.
Player B is doing X event and player A ask to joins. After looking at players A's gear, player B doesn't allow player A to come.
Player A calls player B an elitist, pretty much player bashing player B because he doesn't want the burden of player A.

How is this acceptable for player A to call player B an elitist and not for player B to call player A a poorly geared player?

This is something that needs to be addressed for sure. I don't mind if players don't gear properly, that's their choice in the end. But to call others rude, elitist, or jerks (I've been called much, much worse) because we don't want to party with them is just wrong. They were given a choice, they made it, they can live with not getting an invite from people with standards.

[Nepharite]

There is a reason these forums are being openly mocked from every corner of the web on FFXI sites.

pretty much this

[Naturebeckles]

This is something that needs to be addressed for sure. I don't mind if players don't gear properly, that's their choice in the end. But to call others rude, elitist, or jerks (I've been called much, much worse) because we don't want to party with them is just wrong. They were given a choice, they made it, they can live with not getting an invite from people with standards.

So, would you tell a WAR without a Ridell or Maneater that they can't party with you in the Wajaom Woodlands bird camps just because they didn't have those?

[RAIST]

tldr the whole thread, just gonna drop something here that came to mind when I started reading posts.

The problem is we are dealing with Opinions...and to expand on a rough quote from Dirty Harry:

opinions are like @$$holes... everybody has one.

...doesn't mean everyone wants to hear it.

Raist

[Cream_Soda]

So, would you tell a WAR without a Ridell or Maneater that they can't party with you in the Wajaom Woodlands bird camps just because they didn't have those?
I would tell a war he couldn't pt with me if he DID use those silly weapons in any party of mine.

[Cream_Soda]

There is a reason these forums are being openly mocked from every corner of the web on FFXI sites.
http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103316-The-Official-Forums-BG-Edition

[cidbahamut]

Yeah well. last night people weren't just calling me a poorly geared player. They were calling me a bad player. Period. If they had left it at "you're a poorly geared player" I would not have gotten so offended or defensive.
Part of being a good player is gearing correctly. You are not gearing correctly despite knowing better.

Do you see the discrepancy here?

[Darka]

So, would you tell a WAR without a Ridell or Maneater that they can't party with you in the Wajaom Woodlands bird camps just because they didn't have those?

Gearing correctly and being pimp are not the same thing. Some Haste is good, capped is better, but I'd take some a some Haste player over a no Haste player. It's not just Haste etc, just an example

[Naturebeckles]

I would tell a war he couldn't pt with me if he DID use those silly weapons in any party of mine.

LOL!!!!! Awesome! This was back in the level 75 days, btw.

[Naturebeckles]

Gearing correctly and being pimp are not the same thing. Some Haste is good, capped is better, but I'd take some a some Haste player over a no Haste player. It's not just Haste etc, just an example


Cool then. Then you would find yourself partying with me as I make sure I have at least SOME haste on all my DD jobs that I have leveled. hell, I'd probably haste my mage jobs too and it would help with spells, right?

Edit: I meant with spell casting... recast times, etc

[Darka]

LOL!!!!! Awesome! This was back in the level 75 days, btw.

That combo very rarely beat a GA

[Nepharite]

LOL!!!!! Awesome! This was back in the level 75 days, btw.

umm pre hasso or after?

[Cream_Soda]

LOL!!!!! Awesome! This was back in the level 75 days, btw.
and unless you're talking about before Hasso came out, my point still stands.

[Sp1cyryan]

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/103316-The-Official-Forums-BG-Edition

Yeah, there are multiple threads on AH.com and other places that just make me facedesk.

The whole forum has a casual atmosphere, bad suggestions, lack of knowledge of the jobs, lack of common sense, desire to bitch about things (BLU AF3 DOES NOT LOOK AS GOOD AS I EXPECTED GUIZ), and so on.

After looking around here for a few days I can only hope the dev team does not even read anything here.

[Darka]

Cool then. Then you would find yourself partying with me as I make sure I have at least SOME haste on all my DD jobs that I have leveled. hell, I'd probably haste my mage jobs too and it would help with spells, right?

Edit: I meant with spell casting... recast times, etc

Yeah I wouldn't kick somebody for making an attempt. Though if the no gear swap for WS thing is true then I doubt you'd last long regardless of Haste gear. Was the same at 75, people not capping accuracy but TPing in STR rings.

[Naturebeckles]

That combo very rarely beat a GA

I totally and whole heartedly agree. Raging Rush and my personal favorite, King's Justice out damages Raging Axe anytime and all day long on those birds.

[Cream_Soda]

After looking around here for a few days I can only hope the dev team does not even read anything here.
Pretty much the general view of all the other forums.

[Greatguardian]

So, would you tell a WAR without a Ridell or Maneater that they can't party with you in the Wajaom Woodlands bird camps just because they didn't have those?

As has been pointed out dozens of times already, there is a difference between "Having smart gear that's good for the player's means" and "Intentionally using worse gear than the player could have". Walahra Turban and Dusk Gloves are free and 10k-ish respectively, and both handily beat out Aurore head and hands. Aurore feet and legs? Eh, not as huge a deal to me when you've got a newer player, as the alternatives take more effort to get.

Swapping gear is a pretty big deal, too; especially since macros pretty much require just sitting down for 5 minutes, writing them up, and then not having to worry about them for the majority of your playtime.

It's everyone's right to gear however they want. It's also everyone's right to refuse to deal with people who are gearing in a way which would negatively affect their run. I don't see why one is acceptable while another is not.

[Sp1cyryan]

Cool then. Then you would find yourself partying with me as I make sure I have at least SOME haste on all my DD jobs that I have leveled. hell, I'd probably haste my mage jobs too and it would help with spells, right?

Edit: I meant with spell casting... recast times, etc

I use 26% haste gear and cast haste on my BLM to give me 40% haste making my stuns instant cast!

[Naturebeckles]

As has been pointed out dozens of times already, there is a difference between "Having smart gear that's good for the player's means" and "Intentionally using worse gear than the player could have". Walahra Turban and Dusk Gloves are free and 10k-ish respectively, and both handily beat out Aurore head and hands. Aurore feet and legs? Eh, not as huge a deal to me when you've got a newer player, as the alternatives take more effort to get.

Swapping gear is a pretty big deal, too; especially since macros pretty much require just sitting down for 5 minutes, writing them up, and then not having to worry about them for the majority of your playtime.

It's everyone's right to gear however they want. It's also everyone's right to refuse to deal with people who are gearing in a way which would negatively affect their run. I don't see why one is acceptable while another is not.

I wear the Aurore hat and gloves because they have str dex and/or agi on them with the haste which overall helps thf better than the dusk gloves and walmart turban. (sylph term if nobody else has heard of that before).

I actually had somebody tell me that once after being invited to their party. I was mad they wouldn't let me party just because I didn't have either of those on my War. So, that's why I asked when you don't like players getting mad at you because you don't them play with you if they're poorly geared. Your version of poorly geared is different than other people's version. That was an example.

[Sp1cyryan]

Pretty much the general view of all the other forums.

Well Zam is not terrible, but the suggestion threads there for jobs individually are generally bad.

AH.com is filled with trolls (like me!) who like to tear apart stupid shit there, but has knowledgeable people (people who also post on BG as well) there making it not too bad in my eyes. Dasva, Tigerwoods, Nightfyre, and others will provide A+ information. It has gotten better there than it used to be.

BG remains the cutting edge for the best information (generally not for casual players), but looking through there can be like finding a gold ring in a sewer.

I have not checked KI in years, but it has always been a joke as far as I know.

Here is just turning out to be the worst of any of them.

[Alkalinehoe]

I wear the Aurore hat and gloves because they have str dex and/or agi on them with the haste which overall helps thf better than the dusk gloves and walmart turban. (sylph term if nobody else has heard of that before).


Now see here, you're contradicting the math you had agreed with. If you feel so strongly about this, why not post more indepth on why it's better.

[Greatguardian]

I wear the Aurore hat and gloves because they have str dex and/or agi on them with the haste which overall helps thf better than the dusk gloves and walmart turban. (sylph term if nobody else has heard of that before).

Just for clarification, assuming that you are actually swapping gear for TP and WS, Walahra Turban and Dusk gloves still contribute more damage than Aurore head/hands despite their Str/Dex/Agi; especially in Abyssea where dDex and fStr are capped most of the time.

Edit: Even if you're not swapping gear, Turban/Dusk should still add more damage.



I actually had somebody tell me that once after being invited to their party. I was mad they wouldn't let me party just because I didn't have either of those on my War. So, that's why I asked when you don't like players getting mad at you because you don't them play with you if they're poorly geared. Your version of poorly geared is different than other people's version. That was an example.

I'm not sure I comprehend this entirely. Someone getting mad at me for kicking them for using bad gear is no better than me getting mad at them for having bad gear. I'm not mad. I don't get mad when I see people using bad gear. I usually give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they don't know better. If they want to learn, I'll teach them. If they don't want to learn, I'll ignore them. If they insist that it's their right to do whatever they want, I'll insist it's mine not to have to carry them through whatever I'm doing. Any damage they're losing by not gearing properly has to be made up for somewhere.

[Darka]

I wear the Aurore hat and gloves because they have str dex and/or agi on them with the haste which overall helps thf better than the dusk gloves and walmart turban. (sylph term if nobody else has heard of that before).

I actually had somebody tell me that once after being invited to their party. I was mad they wouldn't let me party just because I didn't have either of those on my War. So, that's why I asked when you don't like players getting mad at you because you don't them play with you if they're poorly geared. Your version of poorly geared is different than other people's version. That was an example.

That's actually an example of choosing something worse intentionally than an easier to obtain piece. Same happened at 75, people using Askar/Ace's/Denali over Turban. 5% Haste > 4% > 3%. It's also free. The Haste alone beats whatever neglegible gain (if any) you're getting from the +DEX. That's why he kicked you.

[HFX7686]

I can accept that. this conversation is going much better than it did last night.

Ironically, these people are telling you the exact same thing the people last night tried to tell you, in the exact same way. The only thing different is your reaction.


Do you not see the flip-floppiness of these posts?


So, would you tell a WAR without a Ridell or Maneater that they can't party with you in the Wajaom Woodlands bird camps just because they didn't have those?


LOL!!!!! Awesome! This was back in the level 75 days, btw.


I totally and whole heartedly agree. Raging Rush and my personal favorite, King's Justice out damages Raging Axe anytime and all day long on those birds.

[Sp1cyryan]

I wear the Aurore hat and gloves because they have str dex and/or agi on them with the haste which overall helps thf better than the dusk gloves and walmart turban. (sylph term if nobody else has heard of that before).

<call5>

Fail.

[Naturebeckles]

That's actually an example of choosing something worse intentionally than an easier to obtain piece. Same happened at 75, people using Askar/Ace's/Denali over Turban. 5% Haste > 4% > 3%. It's also free. The Haste alone beats whatever neglegible gain (if any) you're getting from the +DEX. That's why he kicked you.


I didn't get kicked. He invited me and then changed his mind because I didn't have the maneater or ridell on my war.

To Great Guardian... I'm not sure why it's not obvious why the Aurore is better for thf. Dex and Agi is best base stats for thf for acc, evasion, trick attack, etc. So... I'm surprised that you actually asked me to explain that.

[Seha]

I wear the Aurore hatTry gettin a Raider's Bonnet+1, it would be really easy hun. Vision/Scars equipment are casual-player-friendly...even more if you're a thief :/ you could get that in less than a day.

[Naturebeckles]

That's actually an example of choosing something worse intentionally than an easier to obtain piece. Same happened at 75, people using Askar/Ace's/Denali over Turban. 5% Haste > 4% > 3%. It's also free. The Haste alone beats whatever neglegible gain (if any) you're getting from the +DEX. That's why he kicked you.


Oh yeah, I do have the walmart turban and wear it on my sam and war. Just thought I'd clarify that.

[Naturebeckles]

Try gettin a Raider's Bonnet+1, it would be really easy hun. Vision/Scars equipment are casual-player-friendly...even more if you're a thief :/ you could get that in less than a day.


I will eventually. right now the little bit of time I get to play, I was working on dagger trials and leveling my smn.

[Nepharite]

I didn't get kicked. He invited me and then changed his mind because I didn't have the maneater or ridell on my war.

To Great Guardian... I'm not sure why it's not obvious why the Aurore is better for thf. Dex and Agi is best base stats for thf for acc, evasion, trick attack, etc. So... I'm surprised that you actually asked me to explain that.

The gain from the stats will be very small compared from the increased attack rate and increased ws rate.

[Greatguardian]

To Great Guardian... I'm not sure why it's not obvious why the Aurore is better for thf. Dex and Agi is best base stats for thf for acc, evasion, trick attack, etc. So... I'm surprised that you actually asked me to explain that.

Hm? No, I didn't ask for an explanation, I had guessed the reasoning. I'm just saying, in response, Turban and Dusk are still better by a fairly large amount whether or not you swap gear at all. They are better by a greater margin if you do swap gear, of course. But then again, everything is.

[Naturebeckles]

From a thf player guide on wiki:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Thief:_Guide_to_Playing_the_Job

I do stack some STR on my thf for added attack, btw.

Stats That Should Be ObtainedEdit
Agility - AGI does a lot of things for Thief. One of the big things it does is powers Trick Attack (Job ability obtained at level 30). Each point of AGI adds 1 to your weapon damage for the Trick Attack hit. It also improves your evasion, parry, shield, and ranged accuracy stats. It's good if you have your Pulling macro that equips all of your AGI+ gear before you Ranged Attack it. It will help for the best results of you actually hitting the monster you are pulling and it will give you extra Evasion as you run back to your party. For every two points of Agility a character has, these stats are raised by one point.
Dexterity - DEX also does quite a few things, one of the most important thing is that it powers Sneak Attack (Job ability obtained at level 15). Each point of DEX adds 1 to your weapon damage for the Sneak attack hit. It is said that each point of Dexterity raises critical hit rate by 0.125%. Dexterity also has a direct impact on a character's accuracy stat. For every two points of DEX a character has, his/her accuracy is raised by one point. DEX is also the driving factor in almost every THF weapon skill.
Strength - STR is generally avoided by Thieves. Because Thief has naturally low Strength, overcoming an enemies' Vitality and thus raising the STR variable is more difficult for them than other jobs. In addition, all of Thief's weapon skills use mostly DEX mods, especially Shark Bite at 66, which has a 50_%DEX mod attached to it. Because of this, DEX generally adds more damage to weapon skills than Strength will. However, strength can also raise your Attack, which is beneficial. Strength also raises your Ranged Attack, so gaining Strength and Agility for Ranger isn't such a bad idea. Every two points of Strength raises your characters Attack and Ranged Attack by 1 point.

[Greatguardian]

From a thf player guide on wiki:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Thief:_Guide_to_Playing_the_Job

I do stack some STR on my thf for added attack, btw.

Stats That Should Be ObtainedEdit
Agility - AGI does a lot of things for Thief. One of the big things it does is powers Trick Attack (Job ability obtained at level 30). Each point of AGI adds 1 to your weapon damage for the Trick Attack hit. It also improves your evasion, parry, shield, and ranged accuracy stats. It's good if you have your Pulling macro that equips all of your AGI+ gear before you Ranged Attack it. It will help for the best results of you actually hitting the monster you are pulling and it will give you extra Evasion as you run back to your party. For every two points of Agility a character has, these stats are raised by one point.
Dexterity - DEX also does quite a few things, one of the most important thing is that it powers Sneak Attack (Job ability obtained at level 15). Each point of DEX adds 1 to your weapon damage for the Sneak attack hit. It is said that each point of Dexterity raises critical hit rate by 0.125%. Dexterity also has a direct impact on a character's accuracy stat. For every two points of DEX a character has, his/her accuracy is raised by one point. DEX is also the driving factor in almost every THF weapon skill.
Strength - STR is generally avoided by Thieves. Because Thief has naturally low Strength, overcoming an enemies' Vitality and thus raising the STR variable is more difficult for them than other jobs. In addition, all of Thief's weapon skills use mostly DEX mods, especially Shark Bite at 66, which has a 50_%DEX mod attached to it. Because of this, DEX generally adds more damage to weapon skills than Strength will. However, strength can also raise your Attack, which is beneficial. Strength also raises your Ranged Attack, so gaining Strength and Agility for Ranger isn't such a bad idea. Every two points of Strength raises your characters Attack and Ranged Attack by 1 point.

Wiki guides can also be written by people that don't know what they're doing.

Edit: And actually I don't see anywhere in the guide advocating only using one set of gear. "Use AGI for Trick Attack in a macro", "Use Dex for Trick Attack in a macro", and "Use Str, or Dex if it is a comparable WS mod for the WS you're using in a macro for that WS" are what I get out of it.

[Sp1cyryan]

From a thf player guide on wiki:

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Thief:_Guide_to_Playing_the_Job

I do stack some STR on my thf for added attack, btw.

Stats That Should Be ObtainedEdit
Agility - AGI does a lot of things for Thief. One of the big things it does is powers Trick Attack (Job ability obtained at level 30). Each point of AGI adds 1 to your weapon damage for the Trick Attack hit. It also improves your evasion, parry, shield, and ranged accuracy stats. It's good if you have your Pulling macro that equips all of your AGI+ gear before you Ranged Attack it. It will help for the best results of you actually hitting the monster you are pulling and it will give you extra Evasion as you run back to your party. For every two points of Agility a character has, these stats are raised by one point.
Dexterity - DEX also does quite a few things, one of the most important thing is that it powers Sneak Attack (Job ability obtained at level 15). Each point of DEX adds 1 to your weapon damage for the Sneak attack hit. It is said that each point of Dexterity raises critical hit rate by 0.125%. Dexterity also has a direct impact on a character's accuracy stat. For every two points of DEX a character has, his/her accuracy is raised by one point. DEX is also the driving factor in almost every THF weapon skill.
Strength - STR is generally avoided by Thieves. Because Thief has naturally low Strength, overcoming an enemies' Vitality and thus raising the STR variable is more difficult for them than other jobs. In addition, all of Thief's weapon skills use mostly DEX mods, especially Shark Bite at 66, which has a 50_%DEX mod attached to it. Because of this, DEX generally adds more damage to weapon skills than Strength will. However, strength can also raise your Attack, which is beneficial. Strength also raises your Ranged Attack, so gaining Strength and Agility for Ranger isn't such a bad idea. Every two points of Strength raises your characters Attack and Ranged Attack by 1 point.

I am seriously just laughing right now. This is some funny stuff.

[cidbahamut]

What is this, Brady guides 2.0?

Seriously, the fact that there was a section on race should have tipped you off.

[Sp1cyryan]

What is this, Brady guides 2.0?

They get one point for actually researching something about the job, but for anything else so far they are awarded no points and may the Flying Spaghetti Monster have mercy on their soul.

[Naturebeckles]

Hm? No, I didn't ask for an explanation, I had guessed the reasoning. I'm just saying, in response, Turban and Dusk are still better by a fairly large amount whether or not you swap gear at all. They are better by a greater margin if you do swap gear, of course. But then again, everything is.

oh, well I thought somebody did...

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

[Naturebeckles]

Wiki guides can also be written by people that don't know what they're doing.

Edit: And actually I don't see anywhere in the guide advocating only using one set of gear. "Use AGI for Trick Attack in a macro", "Use Dex for Trick Attack in a macro", and "Use Str, or Dex if it is a comparable WS mod for the WS you're using in a macro for that WS" are what I get out of it.

Right. Which is why I gear myself with the Aurore Gloves over the Dusk Gloves....

[Cream_Soda]

Right. Which is why I gear myself with the Aurore Gloves over the Dusk Gloves....
It's called a macro. You don't have to TP in your Trick attack gear.

[Sp1cyryan]

oh, well I thought somebody did...

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

Depends if you have better TA hands like the Schutzen Mittens.

Yes, the Dusk are better than the Aurore though as has been stated and given slightly more in depth details.

[cidbahamut]

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

Yes. ______________________________

[cidbahamut]

It's called a macro. You don't have to TP in your Trick attack gear.

Shhh, you'll spook her with all these new-fangled ideas.

[Greatguardian]

oh, well I thought somebody did...

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

Yes, actually. Same thing for Turban vs beret.

[Seha]

You know you can gear swap o.o it's not like you're always in Ballista and can't change your gear during fights! TP in haste, Trick in AGI, WS in STR or whatever is the better mod. Of course you're not forced to, but the question is why not?

[Sp1cyryan]

Yes, actually. Same thing for Turban vs beret.

Hey Snapshot > 1% haste. Don't make me link the snapshot page on wiki.

[Alkalinehoe]

You know you can gear swap o.o it's not like you're always in Ballista and can't change your gear during fights! TP in haste, Trick in AGI, WS in STR or whatever is the better mod. Of course you're not forced to, but the question is why not?

Because when you gear swap the whms can't heal you cause you blink (even when soloing).

[Nepharite]

If your not using any gear macros, you are extremely lazy.
Not using gear macros makes you a bad player for the following reason:
1, they are extremely easy to setup.
2, it requires hitting a button to activate
3, seriously do you need this explained?

Just making a tp macro and an everything else ws/sa/ta macro would greatly improve your overall capabilities.

[RaenRyong]

Raenryong's awesome guide to not sucking at THF:

TP in TP gear
SA in SA gear
TA in TA gear
WS in WS gear
Evade in Eva gear

I should put this stuff on the wiki.

[Sp1cyryan]

Raenryong's awesome guide to not sucking at THF:

TP in TP gear
SA in SA gear
TA in TA gear
WS in WS gear
Evade in Eva gear

I should put this stuff on the wiki.

What about snapshot gear, town gear, and flee gear? Your guide sucks for lacking those!

[Naturebeckles]

Raenryong's awesome guide to not sucking at THF:

TP in TP gear
SA in SA gear
TA in TA gear
WS in WS gear
Evade in Eva gear

I should put this stuff on the wiki.


You should go do that right now.

[Nepharite]

don't forget the troll gear, aka aurore

[Dale]

I've seen several post already where someone has posted something (a suggestion) and a more Skilled player has decided it was a good idea to bash the player for his/her inabilities.

This forum was started for general game discussions/suggestions. Not meant to demean a player for his/her thoughts. You either agree with them or you don't. No need to make yourself feel big because you can do something another player can't by telling them how pathetic they are.

I really don't think SE started this site to read about how good you are and see how much you rub it in to those who can't. I'm pretty sure they started this site so people can give they're suggestions to things they think need to be changed. Idea to improve game play. Pass on your knowledge and skill to inexperienced players. Not constantly bash them.

So please. Keep it polite. Try to stay on topic. If you agree, but want to add something to the idea to make it better, do so. If you disagree with it, disagree and explain why the CHANGE wouldn't increase game play, but keep it civil to other players and stop bashing them b/c they are having difficulties with something.

lol
Good luck Amerylyn if your goal is to create civility on an internet forum. You have your work cut out for you. They don't even do that in congress, really doubt it's gong to be done here.

[RaenRyong]

What about snapshot gear, town gear, and flee gear? Your guide sucks for lacking those!

Whoa, leave those for the elitists. I play to have fun.

[Sp1cyryan]

don't forget the troll gear, aka aurore

I see THFs still mainhanding THFs knife (or TP in it for that matter) and using full Dragon Harness set/O hat.

Aurore is lazy troll gear.

[Darka]

To Great Guardian... I'm not sure why it's not obvious why the Aurore is better for thf. Dex and Agi is best base stats for thf for acc, evasion, trick attack, etc. So... I'm surprised that you actually asked me to explain that.

I'll bite

It's 4DEX/AGI and 4Haste vs 5% Haste, or 6% should you acquire +2 Raider's.

I'll start with evasion, my naked THF can get a pretty high evade rate on any non NM mob, evasion rate caps at 80%. AGI also helps with Trick Attack, though you should be using +AGI in a Trick attack macro, not full time.
Same applies to the DEX, same enhancement but for Sneak attack only. It also adds +crit rate until dDEX is capped, which is likely to be so with cruor buffs and RR Atma. It also offers +2 accuracy. Even if you need +2 accuracy, it won't beat the loss of Haste from Turban.

Assuming Turban put you up to 25%, moving from 24% to 25% would be

25/75*100 is a 1.8% increase in your DPS.

So it's not specifically as good a choice as you think it to be, so it would be room for criticism.


oh, well I thought somebody did...

anyway, you're telling me that dusk gloves with hp +20, attack +5 and haste +3% is better than the aurore gloves with str +4, agi +4 and haste +2% even though when I trick attack somebody wearing the aurore gloves will give me more damage?

Yes, remember, each point of AGI raises your weapon's DMG by 1, but keep in mind Trick attack is a 1minute recast ability without merits, your regular DPS will by far contain the higher ratio of DMG. That said, you could just gear swap between the two to maximise.

[RAIST]

uggh..more Haste debates.

Here's something to chew on. At @200 delay, you only need about 5.5% haste to gain one extra swing per minute--so stacking in increments around 6% on a job like THF or DNC provides a substantial benefit. Not only is that increasing your DoT while TP'ing, it gets you to 100TP faster, which again increases your DoT b/c you can WS more often. As long as you can keep your ACC high enough and swap to maximize your abilities/WS consistency, Haste is a BIG boost to your DoT. There is no denying the math, and 6% (or another tier of it) can easily be done with just 1 or 2 pieces post 78 for any melee job.

And don't start that whole blinking and curing thing again. That horse has been beat to death about as much as this haste debate. It's all about setting up your macros right. Even if you didn't know about <stpt> and <stal>, <stpc> was still better then using <t> in macros. I used <stpc> for years and didn't have much issue curing people with gear swaps.

Raist

[bishop]

Macros, they're so complicated!

[Arcon]

There is a reason these forums are being openly mocked from every corner of the web on FFXI sites.

Ironic, seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information (and their wiki is even worse), 'cause you have to sift through 500 pages of garbage, people being stupid, insulting, trolling and just random without any kind of actual contribution to the topic to just find one remotely useful sentence. Which also explains why they mock this official forum, 'cause it's a gathering place for all narcissistic elitists who believe they're better than anyone else and have to mock other people (whether they're right or wrong) to feel better about themselves.

FFXIAH is still ok imo, although many people there don't bother as much with ingame details as they do on BG. It still has its fair share of trolls and unhelpful elitists, which makes it very unfriendly for new people to join in.

KI was dead last time I checked, ZAM I hear isn't far from it, but I haven't been around much on either to make a statement I won't regret later. But from what I heard the situation isn't much better.

The difference between these forums and others out there is simply that this is official, which makes it attractive to people who previously didn't bother. And yes, while it does encourage some people to let their lame ideas surface, who otherwise wouldn't even dare to post, it also encourages people who are afraid of getting bashed on other forums, by the aforementioned elitist crowd, to present their smart ideas. And contrary to what people have mentioned here, there definitely are good ideas here, which the devs should not overlook. Every job forum I've checked so far has had at least one good, well thought-out idea for that particular job, and these general/mission/battle forums also had several good ideas each. There were lots of good ideas which SE would otherwise completely overlook, which is why I think bashing people on here is such a shame. Finally there's an outlet for useful ideas, where people can contribute something great to the game, something that would improve gameplay for everyone, and then those people get discouraged 'cause they see others getting thrashed, insulted and completely talked down for voicing their opinion.

Yes, there's some pretty bad ideas in here. You see it best in the job forums, where people suggest things to upgrade their favorite job for no particular reason. But those threads and posts will be forgotten quickly. What sticks around are things people care about, things people find worth discussing and implementing.

These forums have a potential of reaching higher than BG, AH, KI, ZAM and any others ever could. And people who spend their belittling these forums are one of the main things that's wrong with it, because those are usually the people that don't take people seriously or talk down on their ideas, or even the people themselves, because they don't realise that potential.

Also, can we please stop with the haste/gear debate? At least 80% of this thread is off-topic because of it.

[Cream_Soda]

Ironic, seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information (and their wiki is even worse), 'cause you have to sift through 500 pages of garbage, people being stupid, insulting, trolling and just random without any kind of actual contribution to the topic to just find one remotely useful sentence.

100% wrong. Isladar mops up that shit with the quickness.

Now if you're talking about general discussion, spam, or media, yea, you'll find all the trolling in the world. In the advanced section, you'll find more useful ffxi info there than you will on any other site.

[Corres]

oh oh Bieber might get banned!
he said the bad word: Isladar

[GlobalVariable]

You know who the worst ones are? People who pretend they were "bashed" when they were being jerks themselves are the worst of the worst. They ruin things for everyone and make it harder for legitimate complaints to be heard by the mods/admins.
People who deliberately walk the fine line of not actually breaking the rules are just as bad as the people who occasionally do. They intimidate many nice players who then are too scared to post suggestions 'cause they fear being bashed and made fun of.Also applies to being painted a villain - the knowledgeable folks will get run off by posters who who troll/flame bait them then start hiding behind the rules or pretend they were attacked.

I hate back-seat moderators to - people that try to act like they are one of the staff but aren't.

[Amerlyn]

Off topic myself a bit, but would like to point out that this thread, which was created in the purpose of backing up a set rule is getting more Views than the actual forum rule sticky in this section. 3600 views on my thread, only 243 on the forum sticky. I would think that was an important forum to read. Just felt like pointing out. I know no one is concerned with rules... <.<

[Captain]

Ironic, seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information (and their wiki is even worse), 'cause you have to sift through 500 pages of garbage, people being stupid, insulting, trolling and just random without any kind of actual contribution to the topic to just find one remotely useful sentence. Which also explains why they mock this official forum, 'cause it's a gathering place for all narcissistic elitists who believe they're better than anyone else and have to mock other people (whether they're right or wrong) to feel better about themselves.

FFXIAH is still ok imo, although many people there don't bother as much with ingame details as they do on BG. It still has its fair share of trolls and unhelpful elitists, which makes it very unfriendly for new people to join in.

KI was dead last time I checked, ZAM I hear isn't far from it, but I haven't been around much on either to make a statement I won't regret later. But from what I heard the situation isn't much better.

The difference between these forums and others out there is simply that this is official, which makes it attractive to people who previously didn't bother. And yes, while it does encourage some people to let their lame ideas surface, who otherwise wouldn't even dare to post, it also encourages people who are afraid of getting bashed on other forums, by the aforementioned elitist crowd, to present their smart ideas. And contrary to what people have mentioned here, there definitely are good ideas here, which the devs should not overlook. Every job forum I've checked so far has had at least one good, well thought-out idea for that particular job, and these general/mission/battle forums also had several good ideas each. There were lots of good ideas which SE would otherwise completely overlook, which is why I think bashing people on here is such a shame. Finally there's an outlet for useful ideas, where people can contribute something great to the game, something that would improve gameplay for everyone, and then those people get discouraged 'cause they see others getting thrashed, insulted and completely talked down for voicing their opinion.

Yes, there's some pretty bad ideas in here. You see it best in the job forums, where people suggest things to upgrade their favorite job for no particular reason. But those threads and posts will be forgotten quickly. What sticks around are things people care about, things people find worth discussing and implementing.

These forums have a potential of reaching higher than BG, AH, KI, ZAM and any others ever could. And people who spend their belittling these forums are one of the main things that's wrong with it, because those are usually the people that don't take people seriously or talk down on their ideas, or even the people themselves, because they don't realise that potential.

Also, can we please stop with the haste/gear debate? At least 80% of this thread is off-topic because of it.

/thread rly, but on another note a thread like this is just screaming for an argument lul it's not something that can be discussed without there being a bunch of QQing on each side and thus it's no longer a quiet discussion but QQ for all. So the best thing would be to just have something like this stickied by GMs on each section of the forum to let BASHERS be warned.

[Greatguardian]

You know who the worst ones are? People who pretend they were "bashed" when they were being jerks themselves are the worst of the worst. They ruin things for everyone and make it harder for legitimate complaints to be heard by the mods/admins. Also applies to being painted a villain - the knowledgeable folks will get run off by posters who who troll/flame bait them then start hiding behind the rules or pretend they were attacked.

I hate back-seat moderators to - people that try to act like they are one of the staff but aren't.

^. If you antagonize someone, they are going to respond in kind. You can't waltz into an informative thread, say "lol you guys are nerdz..." and then get mad when people jump on you =/.

+1 for armchair economists who think their high school macro-econ class makes them expert enough to tell the Community Team how the game needs to develop in order to keep players.

[Amerlyn]

GG, hes upset at me. B/c i said in my opinion an argument based on laziness is invalid. Thinking it a hassle to turn off/on a filter with a simple command sounds like laziness to me. That if a player is gonna disagree with an idea just because on that detail they should at least argue an alternate suggestion and not just dismiss an entire idea b/c of it. He took offense to my opinion b/c he considers himself in the group i labeled lazy. I apologized for it b/c I not only was i tired when I posted the comment but i was border lined bashing players with my opinion. I tried to continue the conversation with him by explaining my reasoning behind my opinion and by informing him I do not see him in set group (i truely don't). I guess i'm bad at explanations b/c he followed me here to harass me bout it. And obviously didn't except my apology. Feel free to read it though, its the last couple pages of "Server-wide Chat Channel". Wouldn't mind your thoughts on the situation. In the end I gave up on trying to explain my reasoning in hopes he would come to understand i meant no offense. But he continued so I decided to put him on my ignore list.

Although I do appreciate that he didn't name names in the post. He is keeping it civil in here. He also does give sound advice, I have seen some of his arguments on other posts. I agreed with most. So maybe it was the way I handled the situation. If so i do apologize again.

This post is entirely off topic, I do hope they install some kind of messaging system soon so we can kinda keep these threads on topic and take arguements to private.

[GlobalVariable]

The truth can be read on the haste thread if anybody wants to go read all the nonsense. yes. My first post on the thread was a trollish statement.
So yes, you did in fact initiate the trolling on the haste thread.So yes, you did in fact initiate the trolling on the haste thread.
But after hours of the arguing, the first person I said sounded stupid was the one who said that anybody who didn't wear haste gear was the same as somebody who wears slow gear. And I said that anybody who agreed with that statement was an idiot. I was trying to keep my cool and argue from experience/perspective for a long time before that point. And reading that as proof that I was stupid as a player for not wearing a bunch of haste gear just pushed that last button of mine. I'm sorry if anybody read my very first post as an insult or as bashing. it wasn't meant to be read that way other than to poke fun at "haste whores". But to outright lie that the troll started name calling and bashing first? That's hilarious. I never once in that entire thread told somebody else that their game play was wrong. I spent that time defending my own decision of game play style, not putting everybody else down.You advocated a play style that is outright wrong and was proven wrong multiple times by multiple people. At this point you went bonkers and started accusing everyone of bashing you and being a troll because they were explaining why you were wrong. You have equated people correcting your misinformation with insults and put-downs.

Tell me that doesn't look like what I was talking about.


I guess i'm bad at explanations b/c he followed me here to harass me bout it. For the love of god put me on your ignore list.

[Vinc]

Wall of text.

It's so easy for you to defend a plethora of terrible ideas, and blame the issue with this forum on the "elitist jerks" who have nothing better to do but to put down ignorance.

Only when the good ideas are put down should you jump in and white knight your posters, because when you defend people who are absolutely defiantly incapable of accepting logic (see: beck), you label your opinions as worthless. If you do nothing but attack the individuals who have provided most of the knowledge available about the game, we won't get anywhere. The problem is not only "those elitist jerks", it's everyone suggesting horrible ideas and the people supporting them. It doesn't matter how many good ideas there are, if they are all hidden under a bunch of terrible ones why would SE bother reading through it all? Stop supporting those who make the opinions of NA's look like trash. Those who submit terrible ideas, and refuse to let go of it when reason is given for why it is bad are the problem.

Also, you are correct in saying "seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information".

[Anucris]

just gonna say I agree with the OP here. plain and simple. I've even had sarcastic/rude comment on a very normal post I made and its just irritating.

[Dale]

just gonna say I agree with the OP here. plain and simple. I've even had sarcastic/rude comment on a very normal post I made and its just irritating.

Welcome to the world of internet forums Anucris. Don't worry, you will become numb to it after awhile lol

[rog]

uggh..more Haste debates.

Here's something to chew on. At @200 delay, you only need about 5.5% haste to gain one extra swing per minute--so stacking in increments around 6% on a job like THF or DNC provides a substantial benefit.
Uh...wat is this i dont even

[FrankReynolds]

this thread should have been locked at 1 post. i skipped the other 23 pages just to troll it.

[Captain]

this thread should have been locked at 1 post. i skipped the other 23 pages just to troll it.

And you failed, nice one bro.

[JagerForrester]

Okay I just want to get this out of my system.


Hey, GM, come here for a second. Just for a second.
A GM walks into the thread.

Okay, use common courtesy, or else you're going in time out. Here's is your babysitter.
GM facepalms...

[Arcon]

The problem is not only "those elitist jerks", it's everyone suggesting horrible ideas and the people supporting them. It doesn't matter how many good ideas there are, if they are all hidden under a bunch of terrible ones why would SE bother reading through it all? Stop supporting those who make the opinions of NA's look like trash. Those who submit terrible ideas, and refuse to let go of it when reason is given for why it is bad are the problem.

Part of the problem, yes, I even said that. But the reactions to those are still inappropriate. As I said, such threads, even if those people firmly believe in what they're saying and try to defend it, die out over time, while good ideas remain and get discussed/expanded. It's already happening here if you look through some job forums.

Also, you're forgetting that this forum just started. Some people who had bad ideas and were holding on to them just collectively signed up and posted them, which made it seem worse than it actually is. I'd give this forum a month or two before I started judging the overall quality of topics on here.

This is all about social behaviour. I'm not saying to attack anyone, not even people who attack you, even if they did deserve it. I know it's hard to hold back sometimes, but how you act is ultimately how people will perceive and respect you. I'm also not saying anyone in this thread or anyone who disagrees with me or whatever are bad, even the people I quoted in my earlier post. Stuff happens, just the way it is. I'm not saying people can't explain stuff to others, but even if they don't want to hear/accept it, and keep insisting on their idea, it's likely no one will take them seriously anyway, so why start being rude to them? Why even argue with them if you know they're not gonna learn? I just don't see how it helps.

This is not about what people do, it's about how they do it. Pointing out (even the most obvious and stupid) flaws can be done in a civilized manner. I don't get why people even bother to reply with "lol" to a post, for whatever reason, this is what I mean by "random posts" which BG is full of, posts that don't contribute anything, for anyone, and are simply off-topic.


Also, you are correct in saying "seeing how they're all just as bad. BG is completely worthless for finding any kind of useless information".

I knew I should have edited that, before someone uses it in a clever argument against me. Point out how information on BG is easy to find, when you look at Advanced and see threads average over 20 pages with 20 posts in each. The search function usually returns useless links of the stuff you want mentioned in passing. You criticise people posting terrible ideas, because good ideas get lost in the sea of garbage. It's the exact same thing on BG, only in bigger proportions, and it's not "terrible ideas" but just random posts, flame arguments, insults, etc. that get in the way of actually reading something you could use.

On here you can often identify good/bad ideas just by looking at the title, which makes it easier to avoid. On BG you find an interesting topic (take the Final Empyrean Armor discussion for example) and you wanna know about some effects on your piece of choice. Now you have to go through (currently) 87 pages, 1732 posts in total, in hopes of finding what you're looking for. Now you'd probably say to use the search function, but try it. Try looking up the actual effect of the THF AF3+2 set, and if you can find good results for that. It also helps a lot that we have job-specific forums here, to avoid clustering.

BG is still ahead in respect to ingame research, and honestly I don't even think that will change (at least not anytime soon), for a number of different reasons. For one, 'cause of the userbase. The majority of people who actually research the game are used to BG, their own environment and people there, and know that other, similar minds, have gathered there, and it's simply the place to get most out of it. Also, most research I know relies on third party software like Windower, Parser/Calculator programs and stuff like that, and I can imagine people wanna avoid discussing results based on those in these forums. Whatever the reason, I doubt BG will lose its edge over these forums on that front.

However, for the casual user, who wants to know something or has an idea/question about anything game-related, this is where they would most likely go, not only 'cause they're intimidated by BG, but also because this is as close to the devs as they will get. And as I said before, there's already been several good ideas I'd like to see the devs implement on here, and they're not hard to "pick out" at all.

[Greatguardian]

Point out how information on BG is easy to find

Random Question Thread: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/102584-Random-Question-Thread-XIX-Welcome-to-Flavor-Country

Anyone can ask anything and it is against forum rules to troll them. Easily one of the best resources for FFXI information anywhere on the net. It is mentioned in huge caps lock bold letters in the forum description and has been sticked for ages.

The massive threads in the Advanced section are not for finding old information, they're for posting new information. The people who are interested in them have either been keeping up with them from the first post or have read from the first post, and the majority of new posts are either new discoveries, testing, or discussion of previous testing/discoveries.

[rog]

and the majority of new posts are either new discoveries, testing, or discussion of previous testing/discoveries. They also tend to be almost all discussion. There is definitely a lot of useful information in those threads on bg, but some could be as much as 90% discussion, and only 10% new information. Unless you absolutely need to know everything asap, i've always found it easier to just wait for the information to be reposted to alla/wiki, and if i needed to know something in particular, either search, or RQT it.

However, as you said, those threads are by far the best place to keep up with new information if you want to know it asap, and have the time to spend reading them all day.

[Urteil]

====DELETE===

[Urteil]

You should bash him for it. Ketchup is a sin against nature; it and those who consume it should be erased from the earth.

Holy shit, this too.

Yesssss.

[Urteil]

People aren't worse players because of the gear they choose. They're worse because of how they play. Whms that don't do anything but cast cure, no matter how great the gear they have on are still bad Whms.

I'm all for out of the box thinking.

However.

The tools chosen to get the job done do have an impact. You can't hammer a nail into a 2x4 with a sponge.

[Urteil]

Often it is the way in which that advice is given.

When somebody says: "You're a bad player because you don't do this or that", I'm likely to not listen to them. Great Guardian is good though. He's very good at giving helpful advice to others without sounding condescending towards them.

So its a matter of the wrapping on the box, not the message itself?

I could swear at you and scream that you should not shoot yourself in the foot with a hand-gun and you would.

Alternatively I could ask you nicely and say the same message for your better good, both with the best intentions, and you wouldn't?

Being polite is free you know, its really not worth much when the substance is there regardless.
Sounds petty.

[Urteil]

Uh, not exactly. But if you had it your way, everybody probably would look the same so everybody plays the same, everybody is happy, everybody is whatever... Yeah. Ok.

Your entire psychological drive can be summed up to the desire to not be forgotten. Not forgotten. . in the most baseless of ways, 'misbehaving' and shock. Your stubbornness to to resist the most base PvE activities (which sucking is the norm ironically) is simply that, you wish to be different. Your rebellion is your cause, only to rebel, to rebel, to be different. Not even the goal of self betterment, or to RISE FROM INADEQUACY. . .

You seek to return to it.

Where to be great would actually be the more uncommon practice. Then once you conquered this hurdle could carve your name out in more 'interesting ways.'




'Well behaved women rarely make history.'

Well that may be true, but an attention whore is an attention whore regardless of their sex. I even think it might be worse for a woman to go the 'culture shock' route, and is perhaps doubly as pathetic as a man doing so: They have a perfect blueprint to overcome and to not follow.
As they watch their male brethren make fools of themselves and reduce their standing as human beings to nothing but mindless animals forgoing their gift of higher sentience.

It is not born from a desire to impart a noble ideal of individuality, or forge a path for the downtrodden fashionistas forced to bear the same gear, their inner creativity stifled by the elitist dogs.

You don't wish to be forgotten, but don't you lovey dovey types usually find solace in your loved ones or something? Your friends and comrades, those intangible delights that 'elitists' can't care about?

And from those tops assault people with a maelstrom of insurmountable irrationality that cannot be braved by even the most stalwart of tacticians? Because one quickly realizes that climbing a mountain made of pudding and sunshine is impossible.

However I must say that even though I harbor intangibles closely to my heart, I like to back them up with fact. And only when they are surrounded by a fortress of reason, am I satisfied with their existence.

And only when it is assault constantly and stands resolute, can I be even 1% certain that I could perhaps be right.

[magnius]

I love you, Urteil.

[Kwate]

I don't think it's going to stop simply because the people who player bash on these forums are also doing it in the game and I don't think their attitude is going to change. Don't mean to be pessimistic... but I'm just sayin'

It's a start.

[Shinjikoto]

So its a matter of the wrapping on the box, not the message itself?

I could swear at you and scream that you should not shoot yourself in the foot with a hand-gun and you would.

Alternatively I could ask you nicely and say the same message for your better good, both with the best intentions, and you wouldn't?

Being polite is free you know, its really not worth much when the substance is there regardless.
Sounds petty.

I'm not too sure what the word free means in this statement, but just because something is "free", doesn't mean it has no value. Giving people a certain amount of respect when you speak to them can go a very long way. Breaking through someone's ego to allow them the opportunity to consider they may be wrong isn't generally done by logic and facts, it takes a different set of skills to get someones barrier down first, then the facts can start to do their magic. However, if you are in the situation you set up where someone is about to shoot themselves in the foot, Dont be polite. Just run away.

[cidbahamut]

Giving people a certain amount of respect when you speak to them can go a very long way.

The thing is, respect needs to first be earned and can easily be forfeited if you behave poorly.

[Arcon]

The thing is, respect needs to first be earned and can easily be forfeited if you behave poorly.

Not according to the forum rules.

[Shinjikoto]

The thing is, respect needs to first be earned and can easily be forfeited if you behave poorly.
I definitely agree that respect can be forfeited, and when it is, its up to the reader if they are going to stoop to the same level and engage in a war or just surround themselves with better company. But I don't feel respect should first be earned in order to be spoken to politely in an online forum. I feel that we should all be starting from a point of respect when we speak to one another to begin with. I don't know how you would go about earning respect online if you don't start by respecting eachother in the first place. We don't know anything about eachother. I post all of this assuming the goal is to actually change someone's mind about an issue such as the haste debate.

[cidbahamut]

Not according to the forum rules.
The forum rules do not change the realities of human interaction. If someone behaves like they are crazy and refuses to listen to reason then people are going to lose respect for them regardless of what the forum rules state. The only thing the forum rules do is determine who will get banhammered for being honest in their interactions with others.