Thief and the Last Stand

[Zirael]

Apparently, Thief is on the job list for the new Marksmanship weapon skill Last Stand. Along Exenterator it seems to be one of few weapon skills actually worth meriting and I had a look if it could be utilised by Thieves.
To my suprise, quite a lot of Ranged Attack and AGI enhancing items have been added (sneaked in for Thief) with each update since level 75 (have a look at 'ye olde' Loki's Kaftan or even Denali Jacket for example) and it might actually be possible to do some not-laughable damage with Last Stand when we aren't always actively fighting (Voidwatch), or to be more precise, we are standing around weakened from AoE magic/physical attacks.

Our armour choices with few exceptions are very close to Ranger's, but with one exception. Since level 75 there has been not a single gun (and ammo) released that Thief can use (and only one lv77 crossbow). Our best options are still either [Coffinmaker] + [Iron Bullet] or (not very feasible to use due to ammo stacking only to 12) [Culverin +1] + [Cannon Shell]

My worry and question is, how is it that Thief has been given so many decent armour choices, but nothing in the department of weapons (both crossbows and guns) and ammo (Acid Bolt being the only 'damage dealing' one)? Where are new decent guns, crossbows, bullets and bolts for Thieves to use?

[Babekeke]

The question I was wondering is can we actually use this without /rng or /cor? If so it's certainly a viable option, especially if there's a new weapon/ammo released with this patch to utilise with it.

Also, Venom Bolt has slightly higher damage than Acid.

[Zirael]

The question I was wondering is can we actually use this without /rng or /cor? If so it's certainly a viable option, especially if there's a new weapon/ammo released with this patch to utilise with it.

Also, Venom Bolt has slightly higher damage than Acid.
As usual, new ammo is RNG/COR only


I am aware of Venom bolt being 29 damage vs Acid's 21, I was talking about Acid Bolt more from utility's point of view (-12.5% DEF). Neither of them are a decent candidate for TP/WS ammo at this point anyway.
And yes, similar to Samurai having access to Namas Arrow as long as they have Yoichinoyumi equipped, it should be on the list as long as you merit it.

[Babekeke]

I guess this will be a case of 'game balance'. Yes THF can use the new WS. No THF can't get a decent weapon or ammo to make it powerful.

[Nynja]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18147/culverin-1
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17342/cannon-shell/?stack=1
combined 140 dmg racc-12 ratk+20

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17275/coffinmaker
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17312/iron-bullet/?stack=1
combined 95dmg racc+9

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19266/darkwing-1
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18152/venom-bolt/?stack=1
combined 60 dmg AGI/MND+4 Ratk+20

[Zirael]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18147/culverin-1
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17342/cannon-shell/?stack=1
combined 140 dmg racc-12 ratk+20

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17275/coffinmaker
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17312/iron-bullet/?stack=1
combined 95dmg racc+9

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19266/darkwing-1
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/18152/venom-bolt/?stack=1
combined 60 dmg AGI/MND+4 Ratk+20
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19645/armageddon
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19184/drk-adm-bullet
combined dmg 175 AGI+17

Just as a comparison to where Thief stands right now. Also, Nynja, you realise Cannon Shells stack only to 12 and aren't quiverable, yes?

[Nynja]

I was offering comparisons to whats available if you want to use the WS...

[Babekeke]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19645/armageddon
http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19184/drk-adm-bullet
combined dmg 163 AGI+17

I make it: dmg 175 AGI +17...?

[Zirael]

I make it: dmg 175 AGI +17...?
You right, I included base danage of lv80 Armageddon by mistake. Edited.

Sorry Nynja, I took your list as a proof of so many good options that I shouldn;t complain. I'm too jumpy.

[Sparthos]

Culverin+1 is still an extremely powerful Gun even at 99, you're just offset by unstackable ammo.

[Zirael]

Culverin+1 is still an extremely powerful Gun even at 99, you're just offset by unstackable ammo.
Same logic can be applied for using Omphalos Bullet (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19180/omphalos-bullet) to Wildfire. What would you tell someone suggesting that tho?
Leaden Salute and Slug Shot are still extremely powerful weapon skills even at 99, so why don't you use them instead of Wildfire and Last Stand on your COR? That's right, their days of glory have faded away now.

Look, Thief is a guy whose uncle has just kicked the bucket and his share of the Will turns out to be a Porshe. The Thief guy has been actually into cycling his whole life, but freebies are freebies, so, whatever. Could use that Porsh to pick up some chicks, hit the beach or something. Then the Thief guy gives it a try and turns out the red Porsh won't even overtake his neighbour's rusty Volkswagen AND holds tops 0.5L of fuel. So the Thief guy starts to wonder, wasn't this three legged red mustang supposed to come with a parcel of NOS toolkit and a modded tank or something?

That's where Thief stands right now. I'm asking for some decent gun/crossbow and some decent ammo so that Thief & The Last Stand becomes more than an old man's last prank. We didn't ask for it, yet here it is. So, please make an already sidegrade weapon skill requiring 1M xp and locking you out of other 11 choices a worthwhile endeavour for Thief.
As of now my thoughts regarding Last Stand can be summed up by this pic:

[Zemarin]

Are u complaining? Asking a Question? Or making a statment cuz I really cant tell. First off X-bow didnt just end for thfs they ended for rng too, last xbow for rng sucks i only use the short delay ones like rapid bow... for a thf to moan about this WS is weird cause um... C+ skill is bound to nearly miss without that evasion down skill so yeee... if ur only a thf and not a rng i dunno why you would even suggest getting this WS but Good luck be to ya.

[Babekeke]

Exenterator > Last Stand = Light. And I assume vice-versa, but I'll confirm

Edit: it does.

[Zirael]

Are u complaining? Asking a Question? Or making a statment cuz I really cant tell. First off X-bow didnt just end for thfs they ended for rng too, last xbow for rng sucks i only use the short delay ones like rapid bow... for a thf to moan about this WS is weird cause um... C+ skill is bound to nearly miss without that evasion down skill so yeee... if ur only a thf and not a rng i dunno why you would even suggest getting this WS but Good luck be to ya.
A bit of everything. As you say, this weapon skill on Thief is currently pointless. I'd like to know what was the idea behind Thief getting it when no one asked for it really and if/what will be done to make it more than a bad joke. Most of those weapon skills you pay 1M xp look pretty, but... is that it? Makes no sense.

[noodles355]

Same logic can be applied for using Omphalos Bullet (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19180/omphalos-bullet) to Wildfire.Did you really just compare using a craftable ammo with an inconvinient stack size, to a rare R/E voidwatch drop?

Leaden Salute and Slug Shot are still extremely powerful weapon skills even at 99, so why don't you use them instead of Wildfire and Last Stand on your COR?Last Stand and Wildfire are stronger and deal more damage than Slug Shot and Leaden. Leaden Salute was never an "extremely powerful weaponskill" and it's still not, even with the WSDmg boost from 95 Death Penalty. I have no idea what point you were trying to make here.


I'd like to know what was the idea behind Thief getting it when no one asked for it really and if/what will be done to make it more than a bad joke. Most of those weapon skills you pay 1M xp look pretty, but... is that it? Makes no sense.Probably the fact that it has high enough Marksmanship skill to use it? Bst and Rng can also use Dagger WS. Sam and Rdm can use Sword WS. Who cares?

Starting to remember why I stopped reading the official forums.

[Zirael]

Did you really just compare using a craftable ammo with an inconvinient stack size, to a rare R/E voidwatch drop?
Last Stand and Wildfire are stronger and deal more damage than Slug Shot and Leaden. Leaden Salute was never an "extremely powerful weaponskill" and it's still not, even with the WSDmg boost from 95 Death Penalty. I have no idea what point you were trying to make here.

Probably the fact that it has high enough Marksmanship skill to use it? Bst and Rng can also use Dagger WS. Sam and Rdm can use Sword WS. Who cares?

Starting to remember why I stopped reading the official forums.
You missed all the sarcasm from my post :(

[noodles355]

If it was sarcastic then that means you agree that Cluverin+1 and Cannon Shells are a decent, albeit inconvenient, way of getting decent damage out of Last Stand. In which case, what was the point in your post at all?

[Zirael]

If it was sarcastic then that means you agree that Cluverin+1 and Cannon Shells are a decent, albeit inconvenient, way of getting decent damage out of Last Stand. In which case, what was the point in your post at all?
They are decent because... that's the only option currently available, with the next best thing (Coffinmaker) having half of the combined damage of Armageddon and being ~33% weaker than Culverin+1 combo.
You'd call me retarded for suggesting to use Omphalos Bullet for Widfire, despite it being the best bullet for it; yet in the same sentence you'd tell me to humbly take Culverin and pew-pew with it? Omphalos and Culverin are both the best option available for their respective uses, but would any sane person go about making use of them in everyday situations? No. By applying this logic, you won't use Omphalos and miss out on 20% Widfire damage, I won't use Culverin+1 and will miss out on ~33% of DoT/WS damage (Culverin+1 vs Coffinmaker) or ~45% of all damage (Armageddon vs Coffinmaker). I hope you get my point.
If not: Omphalos is not a Wildfire option, Culverin+1 is not a damage dealing option for any fight/event lasting more than 30 seconds.

[noodles355]

You'd call me retarded for suggesting to use Omphalos Bullet for Widfire, despite it being the best bullet for it; yet in the same sentence you'd tell me to humbly take Culverin and pew-pew with it? Omphalos and Culverin are both the best option available for their respective usesYes but culverin isn't &@%$ing ra/ex with a shit drop rate.
Culverin is the strongest option. It takes up inconvinient inventory space, but is easilly accessable.
Omphalos is a ra/ex bullet that can be used once and has a terrible drop rate.

There is nothing comparable about them apart from being "the best for damage". The only reason you don't use Omphalos for Wildfire is because it's ra/ex with a shit drop rate. That same logic can't be applied to Culverin. The only reason you don't want to use culverin is because the bullets stack to 12.

Is it that hard to understand?

[Zirael]

The only reason you don't want to use culverin is because the bullets stack to 12.

Is it that hard to understand?
Yaay, you finalny got it!

Yes but culverin isn't &@%$ing ra/ex with a shit drop rate.
I’m not trying to anger you, but it baffles me why you think Thief should remain punished with unpouchable, 12-per-stack ammo in order to do at best -33% of your damage (assuming you play on COR, I’m not even touching RNG) on top of C+ Marksmanship skill.
Did you sob when Yellow/Red Curry Buns were introduced? Do you have any second thoughts unpouching those Orichalcum Bullets? Were the Trump Card Cases salt onto your wounds? Yet all I get for asking for non-retarded weapon and ammo is „Nooooo easy mode GTFO!!111”.
Assuming you play Thief, can you tell me, would/will you be using Last Stand with either Coffinmaker, Culverin+1 or Darkwing+1? Do you think anyone will? Ever?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not all heated up for this weapon skill, but having it as a viable option could break the monotony of dagger weapon skill spam or when you’re standing around weakened.

Culverin is the strongest option. It takes up inconvinient inventory space, but is easilly accessable.
Omphalos is a ra/ex bullet that can be used once and has a terrible drop rate.

There is nothing comparable about them apart from being "the best for damage". The only reason you don't use Omphalos for Wildfire is because it's ra/ex with a shit drop rate.
You’re focusing on differences, I tried to point out that once you’re out of ammo, you have to go back and get more. In your (COR/RNG/SAM) case, you’ll just unpouch another stack of ammo; this is not possible with Cannon Shells. Assuming I’d sacrifice 10 inventory slots for Culverin+1 ammo, how long it would last me? You play a ranged job, you tell me how much 120 bullets last. If it was you, would you sacrifice 10 inventory slots for ammo (I’m not even starting on RACC/Snapshot armor) to do below-medicore damage?
Unless Thief gets meaningful weapon/ammo options, this weaponskill will remain a dud. Samurai got a good deal out of Apex Arrow, which compliments Namas Arrow’s shortcomings quite well, why can’t Thief make some (niche and situational) use out of the Last Stand?

[noodles355]

tl;dr. I really don't care about Last Stand on Thief enough to read that.

My single gripe is with you comparing Culverin+Cannon Shells to using Omphalos Bullet for Wildfire. It is a completely retarded argument. How you do not realise this baffles me. Or maybe you do realise it, but are too proud to admit you were wrong on this one thing.

[Zirael]

tl;dr. I really don't care about Last Stand on Thief enough to read that.

My single gripe is with you comparing Culverin+Cannon Shells to using Omphalos Bullet for Wildfire. It is a completely retarded argument. How you do not realise this baffles me. Or maybe you do realise it, but are too proud to admit you were wrong on this one thing.
I'm fine with that comparison. When I run out of Cannon Shells, I'll go get more, when you run out of Omphalos Bullet (intentionally or accidentally), you'll go get more. I bet when someone on COR forums asks for Omphalos Dispenser (it's been done in the past by SE, see Combat Caster's Quiver (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Combat_Caster%27s_Quiver)), you'll run in shouting "Noooo, this is not how it's meant to beeeee!!11 Hard mode gooooooo!!!11". I don't care about heartbroken CORs shooting off by accident their hard earned bullet, so not gonna bother asking SE to unretard it for you guys. Enjoy living the world from my footnote if you prefer it this way.

[noodles355]

I'm fine with that comparison. When I run out of Cannon Shells, I'll go get more, when you run out of Omphalos Bullet (intentionally or accidentally), you'll go get more.Are you serious?
Getting more Cannon Shells: Running to AH, buying more. If none on AH: Synth.
Getting another Omphalos Bullet: Joining Akvan group and hoping you get lucky and it drops again. I'm personally only 0/50ish on the Bullet.

If you really think that is comparable then I have nothing to say. Except to possibly advise other posters that you are completely batshit insane and to not take anything you write seriously.

[Zirael]

Are you serious?
Getting more Cannon Shells: Running to AH, buying more. If none on AH: Synth.
Getting another Omphalos Bullet: Joining Akvan group and hoping you get lucky and it drops again. I'm personally only 0/50ish on the Bullet.

If you really think that is comparable then I have nothing to say. Except to possibly advise other posters that you are completely batshit insane and to not take anything you write seriously.
A single character can put 7 items on Auction House at a time. Even if a single crafter devoted himself to make Cannon Shells, he can sell 35k to 70k (depending on server prices, see below) worth of bullets at a time when it costs 63k to make those 7 stacks. So it's a -28k to +7k 'profit' for doing 14 synths (depending on server). It's a T1 synth at best too. And they sell slow, because only Thieves would use them for situational things. Situational as in: you buy those 7 stacks of bullets of that crafter (84 bullets total) to fill in 7 of your inventory spaces and then 10min into event you're like "Sorry guys, ran out of ammo, gonna warp and buy more." Oh wait, check the item availability again (your server and mine below). At the same time the same alchemy crafter could be doing Orichalcum Bullets, selling for 60k to 70k/stack (assuming no HQs at all, cost to make: 25k to 35k; net profit for selling 7 stacks: ~ +245k, net profit for selling 7 pouches: ~ +2940k). Noone will make Cannon Shells for Thieves' situational uses to provide constant reliable supply. Is that so far away from getting your ammo from VW? Maybe yes, maybe no, depending if you have Alchemy friend or not. Which brings me back to warping out every 10min of an event to restock my ammo. If none is left on AH, waiting a day or a week (literally, check the pics as it stands now) for more of them to show up, or getting mats and shouting for Alchemy 94+ (with subs) crafter, or dropping my party/alliance and logging to mule to craft them, as I'm Cooking100 already (doing 14 synths for 7 stacks takes ~10 to 15min, then sending them over). EVERY 10min of an event.
You're calling me dumb? You obviously didn't think it over further than your nose's end. And you're trying to glorify me your hurdles of getting 1 Akvan drop..? Really?






http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/%3Ca%20href=http://img819.imageshack.us/i/yumadbro1.jpg/%20target=_blank%20rel=nofollow%3E[IMG]http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/7262/yumadbro1.th.jpg

[Neisan_Quetz]

Guns bullets bolts and xbows aren't even a major weapon for thf and haven't been since.... since... ever? Who really cares? I can tell you right now SE doesn't care, just look for the statement (in moonspeak) about Blu and clubs, which boiled down to "maybe, but we have no plans because it's not a main weapon for you".

[Khajit]

Clearly is is IMPOSSIBLE to find a person that is lv 94+ on the most commonly leveled craft in the game and pay them to make a bunch which you can then hold in your mog sack/sachel.

[Babekeke]

Personally I feel the whole gun comparisson page of replies is pointless. I won't give up my status bolts for anyone. Last Stand is simply a perk for the odd occasion where you get bound or can't get in close enough to a mob.

[Darkpearl]

I don't see where is the problem for make new weapon/ammo for THF use... there's ton of junk items around in the game, piece of craps that will never be useful. I guess would be fun use it on THF with a good weapon/ammo and break always the same routine. Don't say level RNG or COR. I have RNG already so don't give a damn. We are talking of THF here.

[Babekeke]

I don't see where is the problem for make new weapon/ammo for THF use... there's ton of junk items around in the game, piece of craps that will never be useful. I guess would be fun use it on THF with a good weapon/ammo and break always the same routine. Don't say level RNG or COR. I have RNG already so don't give a damn. We are talking of THF here.

I actually levelled rng 66 > 99 just so that I could skill marksmanship faster to 357 (from ~290)

Giving us access to a 54 dmg bolt would make xbow on par for damage with coffinmaker at least. I think this would be fair. Give it a 500 delay if need be so we can only use them sensibly for ws (though it would mean we had a massive tp return from it I guess).

[Yarly]

Does anyone have any last stand numbers with various gear for thf?

[Babekeke]

As Taru thf/nin, no agi merits, +48 Agi in gear Last Stand (5/5) was doing 700-899 vs Yagudos in dynamis windurst. 1-hits obviously did 350-450. Iirc, I was using sushi rather than att food. Acc really wasn't much of a problem though, so I think I'll try att food next time.

Edit: This was with darkwing and Acid bolts (venom were in safe). Total 61 dmg only ><

[Babekeke]

It's almost like SE listened...

Handgonne (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19741/handgonne)

Handgonne +1 (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19742/handgonne-1)

Just wish there was an X bow

[Ncspade]

It's almost like SE listened...

Handgonne (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19741/handgonne)

Handgonne +1 (http://www.ffxiah.com/item/19742/handgonne-1)

Just wish there was an X bow



No, they still didnt listen, just another slap in the face. The issue still remains that there is no viable ammo option. As it stands, with this new gun and no ammo you are trading off a major loss in base damage for the convenience of ammo that stacks higher than 12.

Handgonne +1 (48dmg) + Iron Bullet (55dmg) = 103 Total as compared to

Culverin +1 (51dmg) + Cannon Shell(90dmg) = 141 Total

Introducing this new gun as an option for THF was just another way for SE to say we heard you complaints, and still dont give a !@#$.

Considering the fact that THF only has a C+ marksmanship skill, do you really think the game will be broken and completely unbalanced to give us access to better ammo choices? I for one love last stand, I have it fully merited and currently use the culverin option, but its a major pain in the @$# to keep a decent stock of ammo, and I have a mule with alchemy. People can argue the fact that ranged as an option isnt supposed to be a main weapon for thf, but if you have played the job for any amount of time, you would know that thf and crossbows have gone hand-in-hand for a very long time. I for one, have discovered a major use for this weaponskill if for nothing else, its skillchain properties.

I completely agree with the fact that ranger and corsair should still have top tier ammo choices considering it is there main form of damage, however I do not agree with the fact that if I would like to take advantage of the weaponskill, that SE gave to THF via 100 merits, is it really fair to have to choose stackable ammo at a loss of 38dmg?

Thanks SE for another slap in the face.

I forgot to add my suggestion, which would be if SE still doesnt feel the need to give THF new ammo choices, would it be too much to ask to at least allow us to pouch cannon shells? Even if they still only stack to 12, it would still save a ton of inventory space being able to carry multiple stacks of 12 pouches(144 shells per).

[Babekeke]

Well, I gave in anyway. Deleted all my LS merits and putting them into Shijin Spiral instead. :(

[Babekeke]

Apologies for the bump, but:


In general, our goal with ammo is that "if it can be crafted, it can be placed in a quiver or pouch." We don't have plans to allow ammo that is not crafted (such as Dogbolts obtained via Scavenge) to be quivered.

However, if there is a specific type of ammo that is craftable that you feel we really need to put a priority on, please let us know!

Join me in the crusade to get Cannon Shells stacking to 99 and quiverable!