Summoners of the past?

[jeffanddane]

I remember when playing SMN on older Final Fantasy's? They were so power full and god like. What has happened in FFXI? SMN's are way to limited I think maybe more BP- gear. . A lot of time a 1 min wait just isn't cutting it :(. Maybe all summons should not share a bp timer? I have full afv3+1 and the accessories. But no matter how geared you are the output of damage is minimal because your limited to 1 min 40-45 seconds with bp reduction gear. I don't mean like completely whip the timer. I see SAM, MNK, etc deal out our dmg within seconds. I believe SMN should also be in that area of DD. Like the other day I was in an abyssea party where my friend was almost single shouting mobs and I have MM and 2 MAB atmas on and still cant keep up with 45bp timer. Or maybe blood rages at lvl 70 share diffrent timers then blood rages at 75 that are merited. Like for instance you could do predator claws and then wind scar. Or you it could be like you cant use a lvl 70 bp and a merited bp from the same summon?

[JagerForrester]

1min is not that long. But I do feel that SMN has been restricted. I'm comparing in terms with the BLMs. BLMs are extremely powerful and don't have a pet to cushion them. SMNs are not as powerful because the avatars are the key to their power. They are the damage and the cushion while the master can run away to live another day and summon another avatar.

There's been plenty of times where I take longer than a minute for another BP: Rage due to avatar death or MP Recovery. This goes for Astral Flow too.

[jeffanddane]

Yeah but I still say we are on the low chain of the DD. I don't think it would destroy the game mechanics if the bp time was lessened a little more or have some sorta split timers.

[JagerForrester]

I understand the frustration and wish we could do more damage, but sadly I don't have much to say on how to improve this.

[jeffanddane]

yea very true SMN's can be easily over powered because they suffer no repercussions on the damage they do unless there pet is dead. And even then if your in a party that doesn't matter because the tank will regain hate and you live to see another day. But still since the staff reads the forums I hope this idea gets introduced to them that some SMN's aren't happy with 2nd rate DD.

[Malamasala]

You can't really compare it to old FFs. IN the old FFs SMN was pretty much just AOE damage, while BLM was AOE or single target damage.

Better to compare to FFX, where you actually had a pet fight for you. Which is something I miss in FFXI. X had such wonderful strategies with learning avatars spells to nuke themselves HP back and other fun tactics. In that sense I wish SE would split up pacts. Not so you can do more predator claws for more damage, but be more useful in handing out paralyze, blind, and other debuffs from your low level pacts.

[JagerForrester]

I would love it if avatars actually got healed when hit with their own element instead of getting damage by a very low percentage, even if the HP returned is very low as well. Monsters get all the good stuff...

[jeffanddane]

You are so right Malamasala I mean FFX was amazing for SMN play. But what I am talking about is over all. Most Final Fantasy's make summoner really powerful whether or not it is AOE DD DMG which the same rules dont seem to apply to FFXI. Summoners description is "Mages that have unlocked the secrets of the forbidden magic of Vana'diel". I mean wouldn't forbidden magic mean its forbidden for being to devastating or overwhelming ? And FFXI SMN's are anything but that. I just think that SMN's dmg should be up there with that of BLM, MNK, DRK, SAM so there truly useful. And the only way I can see that without breaking the game is lowering the BP timer.

[Evilvivi]

Firstly, Summoning magic is forbidden not because of its strength but because the Windurstian hero sacrificed himself to summon Fenrir. Secondly, to say that SMN is a lower DD than DRK, esp in abyssea, is like an insult. SMN could keep up with a SAM that doesnt have Masamune easy. I have also outdamaged BLMs as well. They might not be as good as past FF Summoner's, but their avatars can keep up with damage.

[jeffanddane]

First of all Evilvivi I don't believe you can do what you say because for 1 my smn friend has all the best gear you could possibly get for smn along with pandemonium atma and the atma of the ultimate and cant do what your saying. Any other job such as sam and blm as heavily geared as him can easily and i mean EASILY out nuke / dmg him with ws's and added hits for getting tp. Even in the non abyssea world they can out damage smn by far because of the delay on there blood pacts. So you must be a miracle summoner because my friend has everything you could possibly get for smn including his relic. I am pretty even well geared with MAB twords my pet and i hit for 3k-7k per merited bp. But can i do 5k then instantly cast another spell thats going to hit for 5 k within a 20 second span >.> ? No. I see blms nuking for 5-7k in abyssea not sure the non abyssea area but they can do that back to back to back and so on and so fourth. Even Samurai i seen doing 9k then 9k then a light or dark skill chain . . . . . . . I dont see msns doing that . . .
.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Blm with good gear can thanks to emp+2 set bonus and Magian staves, Sam especially without Fudo lolno, you're doing something wrong if you can't beat a Sam in damage. Drk too, both jobs are just that bad when atma enter the picture. Smn still has an advantage in avatar damage is essentially hateless, not that blm is a glass cannon anymore but in 2 nukes blm is at capped hate.

Sam can spike high damage with Triple attack but they aren't averaging 9k per WS.

[KorPoni]

there is something sam, mnk, and drk dont have that smn does, which is why smn doesnt hit as hard: aoe buffs. If sam could hastega, protectra, shellra, stoneskinega, curaga, all without subjob, then I'd understand. It's just all about balance. What smn needs is, maybe more devastating bps, whether offensive or defensive, but not shortened time naturally. Now, gear to shorten recast, that'd be nice.

[Evilvivi]

Ok, assuming your friend uses PW atma and atma of the ultimate, I would assume they are using MM for refresh and int+? If that is the case the lack of Atma of the Beyond would nerf the nuking damage from Shiva. Given the bonus damage from +2 Emp body, dmg set bonus from +2 emp set, as well as TP Bonus on emp pants, as well regain on emp neck. Pet: MAB magian staff is more dmg+. If you fully merit Heavenly Strike and Pet MAB and MACC for the odd resist, avatars can keep up with DDs such as SAMs and DRKs. As for BLMs, Heavenly Strike can do comparable damage BLMs Blizzard5 with a lower MP cost, faster casting time. The delay really isnt that bad, though it does suck that BP delay- has a kind of low cap.

[jeffanddane]

all i am saying to you is that a summoner as geared as him is in no way going to out damage a sam just as well geared and to neisan yes there is a sam on my server that averages 8-9k on tachi gekko we have to make him hold his WS's or he has to go solo his own mob so he dont destroy azure. His average ws in non abyssea is like 2-3k as well

[Neisan_Quetz]

Averaging 9k on Gekko doesn't even sound plausible. Not even close. Spikes with TA, average? Not even. Even Fudo doesn't hit that high without spikes, you're leaving out some information. Unless the enhances zanshin double damage proc is broken... considering Fstr caps, the Ftp of the WS, and current gear available for Sam, I'm calling BS on that one.

Exp mobs don't even have that much HP, closer to 3-5k depending on family, and hits after the first aren't adding double damage to the WS with ftp of 1.0 and no bonus from gorget/elebelts.

EDIT: oh hey, I keep my math on Sam, Gekko in abyssea with Apoc/Smiting/VV, spike of around 3k or so, maybe, maybe 4k on a good day (assumed masamune of all weapons... and exp mobs). Calling BS on 9k average.

[jeffanddane]

Well when the servers back up i will post his tachi gekkos on youtube . .. . . He does them easily enough. Just like the guy on our server named Silverpig he does 1k-2k on blade ku i believe on mobs outside of abyssea. I could care less about all your math i know what i have seen. If i could do it i would be impressed with myself but its not me doing it . . . its someone else ^_^. So once the servers are back up i will have to prove you wrong with a video :D and i cant wait to see what you say after that <3.

[Neisan_Quetz]

ITT: The game doesn't work by the math.

[jeffanddane]

your confusing you just said "I keep my math on Sam". And when i am talking about this i am always referring to inside abyssea not outside . . .But I'm still going to post that video for you >.> so you can see how possible it is lol.

[Neisan_Quetz]

By keep my math, I mean I didn't delete a chart on damage calculations for Sam, which I thought I did after seeing how far behind the job is. Turns out I did keep it, and Sam is still behind, so nothing new there. Even Ukko's with full cirts and DA procs rarely reaches 9k+ damage, very interested in how this Sam managed to beat out every single superior inside abyssea DD job and match Ranger's Jishnu Radiance (3 hit can crit high DEX mod) damage with a non critical one hit WS.

[jeffanddane]

lol well i am not kidding you at all XD its 9k per gekko and its amazing. just like silverpigs blade ku hits for 1-2k on anything i have seen him hit it with outside abyssea. I am not about to bullshit about something so dumb XD

[KorPoni]

Im noticing spamming that has nothing to do with the topic, or even smn. Just a big argument over how much damage various people do with various jobs.

[jeffanddane]

lol yeah sorry ^_^ sometimes i get a bit off the topic XD. But yeah i believe smns should get something more to make them more valuable and more damage dealings such as bp- gear would be amazing

[jeffanddane]

And as you mentioned before about the buff skills KorPoni i think that they should relate the buffs to the skill lvls of smn magic because alot of our buffs are getting obsolete for instance Crimson Howl is still like 8% attack which isnt much at all. Rolling thunder etc i am sure you get it :D but i think they should be amped according to our smn skill lvl

[Evilvivi]

I think Avatar's Favor was a good idea for SMN, but it would have been better if

1. it didnt weaken the avatar
2. if the avatar received their own favor

[jeffanddane]

yeah you would think after 7 years of us dealin with main healing an doing nothing related to our actual job they would cut us a better break XD

[Vangoh]

I'm not sure if anyone already came up with this but I'm too lazy to go through the posts they should do with SMN what they did with BST of giving them charges to do special attacks, of course they would have to do something abou thte MP cost per blood pact. We can't be burning through 500 mp every minute, we don't have unlimited mp and blood pacts don't cost little mp. Of course this idea needs more thought but a good idea none the less.

[Kennx]

Or maybe add charges system to the BP? kind of like scholar? I play SMN alot... but I dont see them doing this. I could however see them doing this maybe under the Avatar Flavor effect.

[Imakun]

Or maybe realize that SMN is not a DD-only job? WE can do a crapload of things with our Avatars, and being the n1 DD job really doesn't go well with being multifunctional.
We have infinite pets with natural damage resistance for emergency tank situations or kiting which can also buff, debuff and deal both physical and magical damage. Add this to the abilities coming from our subjob and you'll see why we'll never be Yuna or Terra or whoever other Summoner of old.

I honestly like this different approach to the job and I love being a Summoner for these exact reasons.
Of course the job itself is far from perfect and needs more fixing and tuning.

[jeffanddane]

Yeah we will never be Terra or Yuna on ffxi i we are just to limited i love vango and kennx idea i would love a sch/bst system for smn. I don't think it would break the game at all. I would like them to incorporate healing our pets. . . . I see tons of other games that allow pet healing i think that ffxi should do the same thing for solo purpose. The only ones who can heal themselves are carby, garuda, and leviathan

[Angelsasuke]

I dunno about you guys but to me outside of abyssea smn is lacking, inside its pretty good if not better. With the right atma smn can do just about anything DD Magec. DD melee. Cure(though i hate this one and dont do it often if at all). As far as being stuck main healer for those who said it, you werent stuck main healer you chose it, i for one soloed/duoed/pet burned my smn. 1-75 was way before abyssea. Only thing i would ask is smn magic skill is waay to slow to skill up most people use bot to cap it. I wont risk my character on a bot to cap a skill been playing this game to long to risk it on that. Maybe try being a lil more creative instead of doing what everyone else does and you will have alot more fun with your smn.

[Strife]

Summoners description is "Mages that have unlocked the secrets of the forbidden magic of Vana'diel". I mean wouldn't forbidden magic mean its forbidden for being to devastating or overwhelming ?

Maybe it was forbidden because people got sick of seeing Titan in a thong.


Firstly, Summoning magic is forbidden not because of its strength but because the Windurstian hero sacrificed himself to summon Fenrir.

Summoning was forbidden before Karaha-Baruha resurrected the art.


my friend has everything you could possibly get for SMN including his relic.

I really hope you mean mythic because lolClaustrumlol

As others have stated SMN isn't a purely DD job so of course it's not going to out damage pure DD jobs like BLM & SAM -unless there's a big gear/ merit/ etc. gap- but in abyssea it can get almost on par.

As much as I'd love to be able to fire out BP every 20-30 seconds being able to do that while also buffing/ curing/ enfeebling in abyssia hate free would be broke & doing it outside abyssea would just burn your MP to the ground.

I seriously doubt BLM, SAM, WAR etc. could constantly be spamming such high damage as has been suggested without dying (BLM especially) unless they have an amazing tank or your talking about fighting mobs that die very quickly as I often pull hate on my BLM if I cast to quickly & I only recently returned to the game so I'm missing a lot of atmas gear & elemental magic skill so my nukes do less than 5-7k damage.

With the abundance of 2hr chests you get in abyssea SMN can also go off & insta-kill mobs on their own to. If you include 2-4 mobs entire HP pool every few pulls you probably are out damaging other DDs. I used to love doing this with Odin but I'm told with the new MAB & element attack+ atmas a SMN & a sleeper -not sure if ones needed I haven't tried this myself yet- this can be done to much greater effect with larger groups of mobs & normal avatars AFs.

Over all with the incredible boost SMN got in abyssea -and unfortunately who cares about anything else at the moment?- I don't know what your complaining about.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If it was Forbidden before the Great War well, not even Windurst's own generals cared. Not that they care about obeying rules in the first place...

It's stated the Stay Sibyl made a public appearance after the Great War urging the citizens to make peace with the Yagudo and never use summoning magic again, this is assumed to be when the ban on summoning magic began.

[Secondplanet]

First of all Evilvivi I don't believe you can do what you say because for 1 my smn friend has all the best gear you could possibly get for smn along with pandemonium atma and the atma of the ultimate and cant do what your saying.
.

For the longest time i have always said the gear doesn't make the player, only makes up for their short comings and it seems your friend fits right into this. I am a full time smn and is the only job i really care about, i have always had sub-par gear and i have always been complemented on my ability to either out damage or out play many others players. I have even been hunted down by players asking for my skill to help with misc stuff.

I do agree with most smn has been handed the short straw too many times now, with sch taking away the one big trait that made us stand out hastega etc.. I think SE should re-look at smn and maybe allow each avatar to advance in a stage where like titan gets a shield and ifrit gets a sword something that takes into account each avatar's strength and allows them to once again stand in a special spot that they can be sought after. Even if they allow a new merit set the only 1 out of the 6 elemental avatars to be selected by the player and that avatar gets a new BP rage and ward that represent that avatar's style/personality.

I love smn to bits and am glad that the emp gear can actually see use unlike pieces of the relic and AF. But for the overall smn gets left out on the side line with no way to heal our pets and nothing special for just us anymore.... Other then the fact that the avatars are kick ass looking and makes amazing companions while walking through those dangerous area's and have our backs.

[Strife]

Iirc he conducted his research into summoning in secret, that was why he was locked away down in his little room that only the Star Sibyl knew about. The fact it was forbidden was one of the reasons she also said she couldn't condone what he was doing -I wont give the other one away in case people still want to do the Windurst missions, which I quite enjoyed mostly because it was largely about summoning lol. It's been so long since I did the missions I don't remember why it was forbidden in the first place.. something to do with the Kuluu? It's not really important though just being fastidious lol.

[Neisan_Quetz]

If it was banned before the war no one listened because Master Caster Kayeel-Payeel, Warlock Gariri and General Lutete all used summoning magic, during the war, in full view of their own troops. Summoning magic wasn't widespread before the war, only a select few had gone to 'The other side', as Gariri refers to it as. He was researching how to master it - which leads to his actions in the storyline.

[Imakun]

I do agree with most smn has been handed the short straw too many times now, with sch taking away the one big trait that made us stand out hastega etc..

Um.. SCH can't Hastega >_>;

[Evilvivi]

Um.. SCH can't Hastega >_>;

Not naturally, but if for some reason you sub WHM you can right?
And eventually sch/rdm could too

[Imakun]

No you can't, Accession has no effect on Haste.

[Glitch]

The real situation with SMN is that it's quite fine for solo work, but it's not very party friendly. That said, it's extremely difficult to bolster SMN's role in parties without grossly overpowering it for solo use. In that regard, I have a simple idea. How about leaving BP Rages pretty much as they are but giving each avatar an independent timer for BP Wards?

Contrary to popular belief there are many useful Ward abilities (Hastega, Blinkga, AOE Stoneskin, AOE Phalanx, Spring Water). Blinkga is only obsolete because everyone would rather /nin on their DDs when partied with a SMN and let the SMN focus on Hastega due to the restrictive BP timer, paired with the fact that Blinkga can only be used every 45s-1min and you can't stack Blinkga & AOE Stoneskin and/or AOE Phalanx fast enough to make up for this because their timer is shared. Also, Spring Water would be used a lot more for removing debuffs+curing simultaneously if it didn't limit the SMN's ability to assist the party in other ways.

Buffing some of the Ward abilities would help as well. Who gives a crap about Carbuncle's Prot/Shell effects that stack with normal Prot/Shell or Ifrit's Attack+, or Fenrir's accuracy/evasion/stat boosts because they are all worthless, especially in Abyssea.

[Atomic646]

Well.... We need a -BP delay Superior Atma for sure

[Glitch]

Not sure if an Atma is the proper answer, especially since BP delay reduction is hard capped to result in a minimum of a 45s delay. Expanding the hard cap to let it go down to 30s would probably be overpowered though. Jobs with pets are extremely hard to balance against those without, especially SMN since the spike damage output is so great.

[Atomic646]

@Evilvivi
Ok, My smn can keep up with all the DD's (- the emp weap ones) using af3 +1 head body and feet, relic hands, and af pants(ACC+)/relic pants(BP-) using a combo of different ATMA's depending on which avatar Im using. For ex: I use MM Noxious Fang and Beyond with Levi using grand fall(5/5) 3-4k+ everytime, or garuda (Predator Claws) MM VV RR 3.5k-5k everytime using Fay Crozier prep-3 BP-3 Pet MAB +2. My gear isnt the BEST but it is Above average, NOW compared to my blm, My blm out damages my smn Every Single Time using bliz5/fire5. both blm and smn are fully merited and both have above average gear. so idk where you got your stats

[Glitch]

Your spike damage is giving you the illusion that you are keeping up with melee DDs. Parse a few fights and you'll quickly find that their normal melee attacks, with many crits due to RR atma (and no an avatar's melee attacks can't even compare to a good melee DD's), combined with the much higher frequency of weaponskills compared to BPs pretty much blow you away.

You are correct about the BLM part though. Not taking into consideration the fact that a BLM must eat the hate generated by his damage he can most certainly out-damage a SMN very easily.

[Strife]

BP rage & ward are on different timers now they unlinked them a while ago.

I agree that seeing some adjustments to BP: Ward to make them more useful would be good -and before everyone starts flaming me I know they are useful & I should use them more. At most I can stack maybe 3 depending on buff duration, I know they extended duration based on SMN skill already but as far as I know -& correct me if I'm wrong - these are still capped at 75 skill levels.

I would really like to see them improve avatar magic accuracy to so the enfeebles would be more useful. As it is now I rarely use them because they're pretty unreliable -though my skill is still horribly gimped from the level increase.

I would also love to see them improve avatar's restorative abilities, whispering wind is next to useless, spring water is mostly just useful for removing debuffs & even healing ruby 2 doesn't give much back, at lv99 it should return roughly 428HP -not accounting for avatars TP.
I'm often & much to my displeasure invited to parties only to discover I'm a main healer or as has also happened many times THE main healer lol. Even if they improved Light Spirit's AI that'd be great this would also be good for those times when your fighting something & your WHM gets face raped so that the SMN could step in temporarily & keep people alive until your group recovers. An ability to sacrifice the avatar to restore HP to a single or multiple party members might be good as usually if you want to use a healing pact & you don't have that avatar out you need to dismiss the one you do have, summon the one you need, wait for it to get within range then wait for it to use the BP all of which can easily mean a lot of death.

At the moment because SMN can do such awesome damage I find myself being mostly a DD -which doesn't worry me at all really lol- but I would like to see our support abilities improved so we can enjoy a more varied role again -and again before people start getting up me about this yes I do use my wards & favour where appropriate & yes they are useful but compared to how other jobs can buff/ debuff/ heal now SMN isn't as useful in these roles as it once was.

[Glitch]

BP rage & ward are on different timers now they unlinked them a while ago.

I was referring to the idea of unlinking individual Wards themselves, basically allowing you to use one Ward from each avatar on independent timers. Another alternative would be to make it so that BP delay is not simply a flat 1 min, but related to the BP itself. For example making Whispering Wind give a base BP-Ward delay of 45s whereas Hastega could remain at 1 min. Just a thought :)

I really like that idea about being able to sacrifice an elemental to cure. With a timer of 3 or 5 mins it could be a really effective way to boost the SMNs support role.

[jeffanddane]

Yes I love all these ideas and i wish SE would take these idea into consideration. And glitch you are so right i forgot about the damage in between the rate of melee hits which pretty much makes them all just dominate us and your right also about the illusion of our spike damage making us think we are keeping up. I hope SE does something with summoner to make it one or another or we can do both maybe like light arts and dark arts something on that line would be awesome. Maybe like DD mode = lessen BP timer and raise mab acc att and acc etc and Buff mode= Longer buff duriation and stronger buffs etc. i think that would be amazing.

[Papesse]

I had the occasion to parse Smn in many situations inside Abyssea and I can attest on how strongs avatars can be with the right atmas, even against skilled War/Nin/Mnk/Blm (Sam and Drk shoudn't be mentionned... these jobs are mainly deads in Abyssea for good reasons and I will be curious to see those "9k Gekko average").

1 BP every 45 sec (adding melee hits) is generally enough to keep up now. Blm can nuke for 5k once every 15 seconds? That's good but after 2 nukes on the same target they will have aggro (assuming there is no form of MDB on said monster) then what do they do? Mana Wall? Enmity Douse? Recasts Blink/Stoneskin? They certainly stop to nuke for a while. I agree that Blm is very good for chaining xp monsters but it's not the same story as fighting an NM with 50k HP (or run a clock to see if they really are nuking as frequently and not simply tossing 2 nukes in 30 seconds every 3 min)

As for support/buffer role goes, I'm very satisfied since the addition of Inferno Howl. People (with capped/high Summoning skill of course) really should try this BP, it's much more than a copy of Rolling Thunder and not just supposedly effective on fire weaks monsters.

[Evilvivi]

Your spike damage is giving you the illusion that you are keeping up with melee DDs. Parse a few fights and you'll quickly find that their normal melee attacks, with many crits due to RR atma (and no an avatar's melee attacks can't even compare to a good melee DD's), combined with the much higher frequency of weaponskills compared to BPs pretty much blow you away.

You are correct about the BLM part though. Not taking into consideration the fact that a BLM must eat the hate generated by his damage he can most certainly out-damage a SMN very easily.

I have parsed a few of my groups, and my SMN has outdamaged the entire alliance, I just dont normally save them, but given this was at the 85 cap new gear has come out, so when the servers are back up I will pull my SMN out again, and reparse the results, and post the results.

[jeffanddane]

I am sorry to all the summoners who say they can keep up with a DDs damage because i don't believe that its true. I have capped summoning skill and cant keep up at all. . . Sure my bps do 3.5k+ but my melee hits on smn hit for like 50-65 i see monks sams or drks hitting for 100+ per hit easy now mutiply that by there double att % and there triple att %. . . . And also the delay on smn attacks are long. Like glitch said you may think your keeping up but the illusion of the spike damage your seeing is only making you think that your keeping up. Maybe also giving the smns the stats you get from gear would help ? like if you have str on a piece of gear so does your smn etc.

[KorPoni]

I am sorry to all the summoners who say they can keep up with a DDs damage because i don't believe that its true. I have capped summoning skill and cant keep up at all. . . Sure my bps do 3.5k+ but my melee hits on smn hit for like 50-65 i see monks sams or drks hitting for 100+ per hit easy now mutiply that by there double att % and there triple att %. . . . And also the delay on smn attacks are long. Like glitch said you may think your keeping up but the illusion of the spike damage your seeing is only making you think that your keeping up. Maybe also giving the smns the stats you get from gear would help ? like if you have str on a piece of gear so does your smn etc.

A way around that is to break the "expected"of the smn and actually, maybe, melee? Sure, that doesn't bring a smn up to par with melee dd jobs. However, drop alot of the mp gear and rely on smn's naturally high mp more than other mp-reliant jobs and replace it with something to boost your own attack and str (not dropping gear than enhances your pet's ability of course).

I know, we can't explore that at the moment with the servers down. But, saying "it won't work" is the same as saying "even though I haven't tried it, my opinion will remain opinion and never fact".

[jeffanddane]

yeah i go smn/sam to abyssea all the time to increase dmg i do about 700-1k dmg with retribution with melee atmas. Thats the only way i can even get close to primary DD

[jeffanddane]

If anyone is viewing this thread i highly suggest you voice your opinions about smn ^_^ and what you think needs to be changed.

[Momotarotaru]

For me I would like to see each Avatar (not SMN) has main Duty.
Example Titan to be more as Tank Avatar (well of course can't compare to PLD or NIN) But at least can absorb more damage more than other Avatar.
Shiva has strong Magic spell damage in all Avatar
Garuda we know as strong DD.
and so on ... base on Avatar element. and Maybe we should has Avatar who can cure great.

And BP- Should cap to 40-35 sec in my opinion.

[Glitch]

Just a couple of quick points regarding parsing of Abyssea parties.

1.) Many, if not most, of the DD members are going to be lower level than a capped SMN because that's the whole reason they're there. This means they'll have sub-par skill and sub-par equips.

2.) DDs can't spam WSs as fast as they would if they didn't have to worry about proc'ing ruby lights. They also can't spam WSs as fast as possible because a lot of healers are lazy and won't cure you fast enough if you tank the entire fight, which isn't a problem if you're a tank but it is for a DD. This reduces their DoT incredibly, and I mean that in every sense of the word. There is a massive reduction in DoT when you don't spam WSs immediately at 100 TP as often as possible.

3.) Meanwhile, as a SMN, you are free to spam your BPs as often as you like without regard to enmity and, more importantly, without worrying about stacking up ruby light.

Btw, please don't be offended if you disagree with me. I'm simply offering explanations as to why see the results you see. This is a debate, not an argument.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm disagreeing because I've parsed some of the same fights as he has and yes, Smn has been much higher in damage than I gave it credit for (I've actually been annoyed because I had to stop slacking off to beat Shiva...). The argument about 'actually parse the fight' doesn't hold water since not one but two people have been parsing it and have seen similar results. Granted, a lot of the melee leave a lot to be desired but Smn does fairly well for itself inside abyssea and even outside pre level cap (haven't parsed outside since there's little to do and he usually goes mnk if he wants to DD). It isn't top tier, no, but it isn't suffering as badly as certain other DD jobs are either.

[Bejiita]

I like the idea of taking Blood Pact:Rage/Ward out of the equation and just putting each Blood Pact on it's own cooldown. Between mp usage and pet deaths, it would be a definite damage increase, but not so much so to be overpowering.

[jeffanddane]

Heres a list of things that could possibly be done to make SMN a more defined role.

A: Lower BP time or introduce gear that gives BP delay-
B: Set each Summon on there own timer. We couldn't BP back to back to back we still have to summon and also are mp would still limit us to whatever mp we have in our pool.
C: Introduce new buffs or adjust current buffs to give us more duration or more stats based on our summoning magic skill. Make our buffs more similar to how are avatars favor behaves.
D: Introduce a sch like system. DD mode: BP Delay - on blood rages also increases attack,acc, mab and macc of pet ~ Support/Healers mode: Increase duration of buffs also give a bonus to buffs from pets.

I have feeling these would all be awesome if just one was implemented.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Think you mean for A remove the BP timer cap, since hitting the cap isn't the problem, it's the fact you can only reduce it to -45.

[jeffanddane]

Oh i just put lower the bp timer because its hard capped at 1 min x.x so maybe like lower it to 30/45ish

[jeffanddane]

wonder if anything will be implimented for these but remember SE said they do watch these posts so i encourage everyone to post even there own thread about what should happen for the future of any job that you think needs to be upgraded. I just think smn has needs a good update its really a long time coming.

[Silvers]

SMN need more control over spirits. I wouldn't have mind main healing on smn at times if could tell my light spirit when to use Cure 5, insted it casting something like Regen 2. Spirits spell list need to be updated, and how they cast needs to be overhauled. SE really hasn't done anything to help make them useful other than elemental siphon (which i rarely use in Abyessa). Adjustment to them are way past do.

[jeffanddane]

A way to get around this is have your light spirit out cast invis on yourself and face your light spirit twords your alliance . . . It does a pretty good job if your smn skill is 350+ Works for alliances too.

[MamaKat]

Oh i just put lower the bp timer because its hard capped at 1 min x.x so maybe like lower it to 30/45ish
You can already get it down to 45, lol, that's the current cap, and has been for a long time (and easy to reach really, personally I have more -bp than I can even use)

I think some of the new debuffs can be nice in some situations, and c'mon guys, Fleet wind! ;P I actually really enjoy that Earthen Armor, it's pretty amazing when used for the right things. It has saved many a life fighting Gamayun :3

I agree that adjustments need to be made to spirits. Siphon is basically not even needed in Abyssea, and other than siphon, the only thing they're good for is a quick summon to run away from any unexpected aggro. By the time you get your light spirit out, and stand there even with relic pants, you could have cured everyone yourself by the time it decides to Regen somone.

I look forward to the next cap raise, I'm sure we'll be seeing some pretty BA DD bps. Don't forget, they still have 9 more levels to play with ;) And probably a new system/tier of merits for 99.

[Feliciaa]

IMO. Even with gear 45 seconds before you can do anything is way too long with the way this game plays now. I understand making it too low could completely break the game's balance Rage wise. But a 45/1min wait to do our next Ward seems kind of harsh.

As it stands now we have soo many great buff tools but we can't really keep up with the flow of most battles which puts our job in the "I guess you can come SMN since every other important roll is filled".

I also agree that more control over light spirit would really help make SMN a more desirable job without outclassing WHM.

[jeffanddane]

IMO. Even with gear 45 seconds before you can do anything is way too long with the way this game plays now. I understand making it too low could completely break the game's balance Rage wise. But a 45/1min wait to do our next Ward seems kind of harsh.

As it stands now we have soo many great buff tools but we can't really keep up with the flow of most battles which puts our job in the "I guess you can come SMN since every other important roll is filled".

I also agree that more control over light spirit would really help make SMN a more desirable job without outclassing WHM.

I love you for seeing this . . . More people should be like you lol.

[Klyde]

With all the of the new perp. cost - gear out there mp should not be an issue, especially if you are /rdm. It's possible to attain a free elemental spirit with out meriting their perp. cost. If you are worried about your dmg output then check you gear cause there are plenty of att+ and mag. att+ bonuses for your pets. I agree a BP timer decrease would be very beneficial, and awesome idea for group 3 merits :) I guess what it really boils down to is skill..... if you key whored your smn, it's going to suck.