One million limit points for a sidegrade? What is the Dev Team's logic behind this?

[noodles355]

I'm going to keep this short and to the point.


With a few exceptions, most of the new "Meritable Weaponskills" are sidegrades to current available weaponskills when merited to 5/5.
It takes 100 merit points to upgrade one weaponskill to 5/5. That is one million limit points.
Considering they are weaker than current alternatives if merited to 4/5 or less, it is pointless to merit them any lower than 5/5.


The question I would like the community reps to forward to the Dev Team is pretty straight forward:
Considering the disclaimer displayed before logging into the game, who on the Development Team thought it would be a good idea for players to spend time gathering one million limit points for a weaponskill that is no better than current alternatives, and why?

We have received comments from the development team about their goals for some of the weaponskills. They openly admit that they want them to be side-grades. The question is, how can they justify one million limit points for a sidegrade?

[Buffy]

100 merits is like what? 10 Hours of exp?

Meaningless. They should have made it more.

[Zumi]

In a lot of cases these new weapon skills are worse then pre 75 WS we already for example, Vorpal Blade, Hexa Strike, Raging Rush are all higher damaging then the new WS.

I do not know what the dev team is thinking making people get 100 merits for a 96+ weapon skill for it to under perform compared to what is already available.

[Vold]

100 merits is like what? 10 Hours of exp?

Meaningless. They should have made it more.
really. did you really just say that I'm curious

[svengalis]

In a lot of cases these new weapon skills are worse then pre 75 WS we already for example, Vorpal Blade, Hexa Strike, Raging Rush are all higher damaging then the new WS.

I do not know what the dev team is thinking making people get 100 merits for a 96+ weapon skill for it to under perform compared to what is already available.

I think the idea is for you to merit these weapon skills on jobs that can't use weapon skills like Hexa Strike and Raging Rush.

[Kimble]

Yeah, cause meriting the club WS is totally going to get me to use club on WAR and BLU

[Buffy]

really. did you really just say that I'm curious

Yes. There is nothing hard in the game anymore, I'm bored.

[wish12oz]

how can they justify one million limit points for a sidegrade?

( '-')b
/thumbsup

[Sparthos]

Yeah, cause meriting the club WS is totally going to get me to use club on WAR and BLU

Pre-nerfs, Realmrazer looked quite viable for BLU.

[Kimble]

Pre-nerfs Realmrazer looked quite viable for BLU.

With no real good clubs at 75 and them not giving blue any more, even if it wasnt nerfed, would blu be using them over swords?

[Sparthos]

In certain situations? Yes. If you lack Chant du Cygne? Yes.

[Prothscar]

Would have been passable with a Perdu or Lyft wand, better than Vorpal Blade on blunt weak mobs for sure, but about the same as Vorpal on most things due to BLU's horrible selection of clubs.

[Atomic_Skull]

implying 100 merits is a lot

In today's FFXI that's nothing.

[Hayward]

100 merits is like what? 10 Hours of exp?

Meaningless. They should have made it more.

Really?

Typical poser adding nothing to a discussion that affects all of us.

This whole balance crusade really is starting to grate on my nerves. Were those weapon skills left alone, 100 points would be justifiable if only for the opportunity to rack up cruor. The way things stand now, the only motivation I see is amassing cruor. Be sure to thank the nearest Empyrean weapon owner who screamed bloody murder when these weapon skills were tested out initially.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

100 merits is like what? 10 Hours of exp?

Meaningless. They should have made it more.That's only 5 times in and out of aby, should only take about 2-4 hours.

[SpankWustler]

We're also limited to three of these weaponskills, which again implies they should be an improvement over what's available for weapons with poor options. I'm particularly thinking of the weapons with average-to-horrid Empyrean weaponskills.

Originally, it seemed like these were going to be powerful weaponskills with the trade-off that you had to pick and choose. No matter how awesome you are, you could only have three.

Instead, they've been repeatedly compared to the "multiple hit with chance of critical" weaponskills that are learned at levels 55-60 and have been adjusted to be more comparable to those. They've been called "situational" a couple of times.


Be sure to thank the nearest Empyrean weapon owner who screamed bloody murder when these weapon skills were tested out initially.

I don't think the Development Bros play FFXI seriously enough to make Empyrean Weapons. If they do, I suspect Dagan or Farsha are more to their tastes, anyway.

Dark Knights with a Caladbolg were happy that Resolution would offer them an awesome weaponskill to use when Souleater was up. Warriors with Ukonvasara were happy that Upheaval would be great while using Mighty Strikes. Monks with Verethragna were happy that Shijin Spiral would be a good option whenever Impetus is not active.

Beastmasters with a Farsha were happy to finally put the STR and base damage on Farsha to use with a weaponskill worth using, and in fact, were OVERJOYED that Ruinator did more damage than Cloudsplitter.

Unless the Development Bros zeroed in on the two or players out of a hundred who complained about the new weaponskills, I'm pretty sure they came up with this idea on their own.

[noodles355]

That's only 5 times in and out of aby, should only take about 2-4 hours.Is it too much to expect responses to a thread that aren't laced with exaggerations?

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Is it too much to expect responses to a thread that aren't laced with exaggerations?I was being generous even. In altep you can cap merits before you even come close to capping XP per kill. You're litteraly getting a merit every 2 pages. That's a merit every 2 pulls.
If you think it was an exaggeration, then you've never had anything but bad parties.

[Mirabelle]

I was being generous even. In altep you can cap merits before you even come close to capping XP per kill. You're litteraly getting a merit every 2 pages. That's a merit every 2 pulls.
If you think it was an exaggeration, then you've never had anything but bad parties.

A can guarantee you with all the new competition for levelling and meriting these WS, that your speed of xp gain will drop considreably over the next month or so.

[Brolic]

That's only 5 times in and out of aby, should only take about 2-4 hours.

it's actually only 3

[Brolic]

also

Michael Jackson! One million limit points, feel me!

[svengalis]

it's actually only 3

I thought the cap on merits was 30?

[svengalis]

That's only 5 times in and out of aby, should only take about 2-4 hours.

Who do you have pulling for you where you can get that much exp that fast?

[FrankReynolds]

I thought the cap on merits was 30?

Ahhh yes, but there is not cap on trolling. Some people like these weapon skills despite how shitty they are, and all the nonsense excuses about balance because they give them endless enjoyment from their favorite part of the game: pissing people off in internet forums.

[Kriegsgott]

I thought the cap on merits was 30?

not for the first WS
i guess the most people have already 20 merits waiting

[Deadvinta]

Yeah, cause meriting the club WS is totally going to get me to use club on WAR and BLU

If it's any good of a weaponskill at all, I would merit it for BLU. Blunt damage can come in handy, and if you're somehow out of MP it could help you out to have a powerful club trick on-hand.

[Unaisis]

not for the first WS
i guess the most people have already 20 merits waiting

i have 20 merits waiting but new limit break is 15 merits i believe ._.

[MarkovChain]

100 merit is a lot for a WS that is better



In today's FFXI that's nothing.

But that's something in today's BG.

But seriously it's really nothing, barely enough to work for like ... ONE week if you are casual. Then we got the limite break quest, 4 levels to get, moar merits, and AF2+2 I think it's enough to keep the most implied players one month at least.

On that note check the monk forums shijin makes maxed spharai better than maxed vere with good gear, so likely a lot better than a crap level 90 empy. I'd say it gives balance to the game, if you can't get the plates you can get the coins solo at least and work towards the best weapon this way instead of voidwatch of fail where you won't get enough plates whatever you do solo or with 17 ppl.

[Zirael]

I'm going to keep this short and to the point.



With a few exceptions, most of the new "Meritable Weaponskills" are sidegrades to current available weaponskills when merited to 5/5.
It takes 100 merit points to upgrade one weaponskill to 5/5. That is one million limit points.
Considering they are weaker than current alternatives if merited to 4/5 or less, it is pointless to merit them any lower than 5/5.



The question I would like the community reps to forward to the Dev Team is pretty straight forward:
Considering the disclaimer displayed before logging into the game, who on the Development Team thought it would be a good idea for players to spend time gathering one million limit points for a weaponskill that is no better than current alternatives, and why?

We have received comments from the development team about their goals for some of the weaponskills. They openly admit that they want them to be side-grades. The question is, how can they justify one million limit points for a sidegrade?
My gripe is, 3/4 of those weaponskills are either too weak or not useful, good thing is, they are pretty. Why I can have only 3 of them unlocked? I'd love to be able to show them off around, just like jobemotes. They are as useful, after all :(
(Serious question, I'd really love to have a Mithra Polearm Dance WS, but it's too weak to justify meriting, for example)

[Alhanelem]

Yeah, cause meriting the club WS is totally going to get me to use club on WAR and BLU
I can honestly see PLD using the club WS. They can still use a shield with clubs.

[Jackstin]

What's the problem with the new WSs?

They seem to be better than the standard non-quested WSs. From a new player's perspective it makes total sense that Stardiver for example is worse than Drakesbane (which does take a while to get).

[Finuve]

What's the problem with the new WSs?

They seem to be better than the standard non-quested WSs. From a new player's perspective it makes total sense that Stardiver for example is worse than Drakesbane (which does take a while to get).the problem is exactly what you think is not the problem, now this isnt the case for all however

Entropy - weaker than guillotine
Requiescat - Weaker than vorpal blade
Ruinator - weaker than rampage
Realmrazer - weaker than hexa strike
Whatever the GAxe WS is called - weaker than Raging Rush
and probably more that are crap like this

honestly stardiver weaker than drakesbane kinda makes sense since Drakes is about the only good nyzul WS (when not used with a mythic)

[Chronofantasy]

1M limit points for 100 merits or w/e it is may only be slow/tedious once everyone has lvlled all their jobs to 99 within the first 2 weeks to a month because after that abyssea exp ptys slow down quite a bit. Some ptys will start off fast with your regular 100-200k exp per hour, but then after an hour or two more people tend to leech or decide to go afk while only two people are doing all the fighting for everyone else.

[Finuve]

we can honestly ignore the unlock requirement, outside of that its just a simple problem that a level 96 weapon skill is getting held to the standards of level 55-60(give or take) WSs

[Jackstin]

we can honestly ignore the unlock requirement, outside of that its just a simple problem that a level 96 weapon skill is getting held to the standards of level 55-60(give or take) WSs

I don't think we should ignore the unlock requirement, seeing as the new WSs are very easy to get, if a little time consuming.

As far as I can tell, in terms of strength it should go Skill WSs < Merit WSs < Quested WSs < Trials WSs. If this isn't the case then fine, but it seems many people just want the new WSs to be uber because they are new. That's what people mean by balance.

[Finuve]

I don't think we should ignore the unlock requirement, seeing as the new WSs are very easy to get, if a little time consuming.

As far as I can tell, in terms of strength it should go Skill WSs < Merit WSs < Quested WSs < Trials WSs. If this isn't the case then fine, but it seems many people just want the new WSs to be uber because they are new. That's what people mean by balance.your order doesnt make much sense, based on that it would be (using scythe as an example)

Guillotine < Entropy < Spiral Hell = Insurgency < Quietus = Catastrophe = Insurgency(With Liberator)

I believe it should be, ignoring spiral hells existence

Guillotine < Insurgency(No Liberator) < Entropy < Insurgency(With Liberator) < Catastrophe < Quietus

this is FAR from the case

[Nynja]

doesnt matter how fast you theoretically can get 100 merits...its the fact that some of these merited WS's are inferior to lv 55-60 counterparts...

[Jackstin]

your order doesnt make much sense, based on that it would be (using scythe as an example)


I'm not saying they are perfect or even anywhere near right at the moment. I'm just saying that having Merited WSs stronger than Standard WSs, but weaker than ones you have to Quest for, makes total sense. Merits in general are easily picked up, even if you are not trying to level. With levelling so easy these days, why not have a set of WSs that fill the void between Quested and Standard WSs. Of course if the beefed up the Quested and Trials WSs that would be even better!

[Prothscar]

The quested weaponskills take 20 minutes to unlock. I don't see why they should be held above anything.

[Kimikryo]

20 Minutes to unlock? wth? how do you get 300 points in 20 minutes including getting the nm?

considering you need to be at least 35X weaponskill, a lot of ppl will whine that they dont get them when there skill isnt even capped at level 30

[Finuve]

20 Minutes to unlock? wth? how do you get 300 points in 20 minutes including getting the nm?

considering you need to be at least 35X weaponskill, a lot of ppl will whine that they dont get them when there skill isnt even capped at level 30though 20 minutes might be understating the whole quest, in abyssea with a partner with all regain atmas, it only takes about 20 minutes to finish the points

[Aldersyde]

I don't think we should ignore the unlock requirement, seeing as the new WSs are very easy to get, if a little time consuming.

As far as I can tell, in terms of strength it should go Skill WSs < Merit WSs < Quested WSs < Trials WSs. If this isn't the case then fine, but it seems many people just want the new WSs to be uber because they are new. That's what people mean by balance.

If only this was true!

As it stands for axe: Decimation<Cloudsplitter<Primal Rend<Ruinator<Rampage (Wassup level 175 natural skill ws, King of the Hill, forever and ever, amen).

I'm still waiting to be rewarded for the wsnm quest and unlocking my mythic (Farsha is a waste of time, working on Guttler because it's a straight up better axe). I was hoping getting another 1,000,000 xp and putting it into Ruinator would actually give me a better ws than Rampage, no matter how belated it was.

Ruinator isn't even a sidegrade. It's straight up inferior, considering i've put the effort into getting the gear and merits to make it do "large amounts of damage" (dev's words, not mine). Would you really pay for something inferior to something you had already, even if you found money insanely easy to get? That's just stupid.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

it's actually only 3Yeah, my mind was still only 20 so it didn't see 25 for the first 2. lol
Who do you have pulling for you where you can get that much exp that fast?Thf mostly, but sometimes pld. Altep page 1 caps at 5100 per page, mobs cap at 670, that's over 8k per pull.

[Jackstin]

I won't labour the point. It's obvious that Team XI haven't balanced their WSs well, and this is probably because they are reluctant to overpower anyone because this will mean they have to bring in masses of more difficult content. But as far as these particular WSs go, they are easy-peasy for anyone to get, so for me it makes sense that they are only fairly powerful.

[Nynja]

But as far as these particular WSs go, they are easy-peasy for anyone to get, so for me it makes sense that they are only fairly powerful.

Rampage: Skill axe to 175
Ruinator: Skill axe to 357 (yes there is a minimum skill for them), burn 100 merit points.....keep using Rampage.

[Jackstin]

That's true, I forgot about the minimum skill level required.

[Zarchery]

A can guarantee you with all the new competition for levelling and meriting these WS, that your speed of xp gain will drop considreably over the next month or so.

And then pick up again a month or two later when people have had their fill.

[Zarchery]

Open question: Does anyone actually enjoy this game? You people sure do complain a lot.

Capping ability upgrades for one stat back in the old days was 45 merit points, when getting 20,000 an hour was extraordinary. Now you get 4 to 5 times that much, and this 100 merit points is a smidge over half that. Heck, I did Bostaneiux Oubliette book burn a few days ago and was getting like 95k an hour, and that was average. Capping one new weapon skill is something you can do in an afternoon.

Maybe that's the dev team's logic; that something that doesn't take all that much effort to get shouldn't be all that great.

[Kimble]

Open question: Does anyone actually enjoy this game? You people sure do complain a lot.

Capping ability upgrades for one stat back in the old days was 45 merit points, when getting 20,000 an hour was extraordinary. Now you get 4 to 5 times that much, and this 100 merit points is a smidge over half that. Heck, I did Bostaneiux Oubliette book burn a few days ago and was getting like 95k an hour, and that was average. Capping one new weapon skill is something you can do in an afternoon

REGARDLESS of the amount of merits it takes, its rather silly that a level 99, 350+ skill WS is about the same, if not worse, then a WS you get at level 60 and 200 skill.

[Zarchery]

REGARDLESS of the amount of merits it takes, its rather silly that a level 99, 350+ skill WS is about the same, if not worse, then a WS you get at level 60 and 200 skill.

That's a different issue though. The OP was bellyaching about the number of limit points required, not the strength of the weapon skills.

How do the weapon skills you get in the mid 60s and 70s stack against the low 60s skills?

Exactly what do people want? That's what I don't understand. Posts here are always long on complaints, short on solutions. If the new WS were equal to Empyrean/Relic/Mythic WS, that wouldn't be fair to the holders of those weapons who put in a lot more effort into getting them than it takes to get these new weapon skills.

If they were equal to mid-level weapon skills, the complaints would be the same.

So what do you want from the devs? And has anyone tried asking nicely instead of the usual tactic of throwing mean spirited temper tantrums?

[SpankWustler]

If the new WS were equal to Empyrean/Relic/Mythic WS, that wouldn't be fair to the holders of those weapons who put in a lot more effort into getting them than it takes to get these new weapon skills.

Actually, this would be a good thing to happen to many Relic and Mythic weapons and many people who wield them. Shijin Spiral is a huge boon for anyone with shiny gold Spharai, for example. Ruinator could have been the same for every super-special Axe in existance before it was adjusted.

[Aldersyde]

That's a different issue though. The OP was bellyaching about the number of limit points required, not the strength of the weapon skills.

How do the weapon skills you get in the mid 60s and 70s stack against the low 60s skills?

Exactly what do people want? That's what I don't understand. Posts here are always long on complaints, short on solutions. If the new WS were equal to Empyrean/Relic/Mythic WS, that wouldn't be fair to the holders of those weapons who put in a lot more effort into getting them than it takes to get these new weapon skills.

If they were equal to mid-level weapon skills, the complaints would be the same.

So what do you want from the devs? And has anyone tried asking nicely instead of the usual tactic of throwing mean spirited temper tantrums?

Are you sure you've been reading all the threads talking about the new ws and reading them well? No one is asking for them to be top-tiered ws (well, except where the relic/mythic/empyrean is just balls, like axe), we're asking for some measure of progression when compared to ws that were obtained in 50-60 level.

Lots of posters ask calmly and politely for explanations. The Devs address the posts they want to address whether it's furious indignation or gentle prodding.

What I want from the devs is PROGRESSION, not this sidegrade nonsense which was evident a level cap before the maximum limit. The abilities, adjustments, and weapon skills accompanying this update should have been mind-blowing...not ho-hum bullshit.

I also want a little excitement when it comes to updates. I've been playing this game for 8+ years and update days used to feel like Christmas. I'm just not feeling it this update and I didn't feel it last update either. My files are all downloaded and yet I'm not online yet because I'd rather transcribe historical documents for work rather than deal with the overcrowding on mobs and the limit break bc. It'll be there this weekend...next week...whenever. A year ago I would have been all over logging on lickity-split on update day, now its meh.

That's not the feeling you should want to cultivate in a paying player base.

[Jackstin]

Are you sure you've been reading all the threads talking about the new ws and reading them well? No one is asking for them to be top-tiered ws (well, except where the relic/mythic/empyrean is just balls, like axe), we're asking for some measure of progression when compared to ws that were obtained in 50-60 level.


I get confused on this point. Are we talking about Standard WSs that would be attained around that level from skilling up? Or are we talking about Quested WSs that you can obtain at around those levels with sufficient help. If it is the latter then the level range is erroneous, and it should be the fact that these new WSs are easy to get that defines their usefulness.

[Aldersyde]

I'm talking about compared to natural skill wses. But in the case of axe, an improvement, like ever, over rampage would be nice.

[Rohelius]

Yes. There is nothing hard in the game anymore, I'm bored.

Drop your LS and go solo then comeback and tell me that.

[Kimble]

Drop your LS and go solo then comeback and tell me that.

Right, go play solo in an "MMO".

[Nynja]

Right, go play solo in an "MMO".

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20061219150554/ffxi/images/6/66/BSTJOB.jpg

[svengalis]

I get confused on this point. Are we talking about Standard WSs that would be attained around that level from skilling up? Or are we talking about Quested WSs that you can obtain at around those levels with sufficient help. If it is the latter then the level range is erroneous, and it should be the fact that these new WSs are easy to get that defines their usefulness.

If they are no better then the ones we use at 55-60 then how are they useful at all? Just another pointless useless ws there just because of level increase.

I say the same thing they keep giving players these weapon skills and we only have one useful one. How many weapon skills do you have on any job sir? How many do you use? See the problem?

[Atomic_Skull]

Ahhh yes, but there is not cap on trolling. Some people like these weapon skills despite how shitty they are, and all the nonsense excuses about balance because they give them endless enjoyment from their favorite part of the game: pissing people off in internet forums.

Last Stand isn't shitty, neither is Apex Arrow, Resolution, Ruinator, Upheaval Shijin Spiral or Extenterator. they are all the most powerful WS in their class outside of relic/emp WS. And in the case of Last Stand it actually outperforms Wildfire under normal circumstances (as in you haven't gimped yourself with MAB/INT/+Fire atmas)

Stardiver does slightly lower damage on weak enemies than Drakesbane, but on the other hand it doesn't have negative berserk like Drakesbane so it does much better on high level enemies. Yes that's right Drakesbane has -20% attack, apparently it's had this for years and people only recently discovered it. So Stardiver isn't as useless as people first thought.


I'm talking about compared to natural skill wses. But in the case of axe, an improvement, like ever, over rampage would be nice.

Ruinator is an improvement over Rampage. Rampage will once in a blue moon spike higher but overall Ruinator's damage with be consistently higher. I know this first hand because I tried it on the test server.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

There was a discrepancy in my estamates I forgot to account for. @99 page 1 altep is only 1-2 stars, so 2k per page is missing.

[Aldersyde]

Ruinator is an improvement over Rampage. Rampage will once in a blue moon spike higher but overall Ruinator's damage with be consistently higher. I know this first hand because I tried it on the test server.

You will forgive me if I don't rush out and spend 1,000,000 xp on a weapon skill simply based on your anecdotal evidence. Run tests with an acceptable sample size and prove it to me with math.

[Kimble]

You're asking the wrong person to provide any proof, lol.

[Arcon]

You're asking the wrong person to provide any proof, lol.

How about taking it from a Community Rep?


We are making it so that the amount of damage will be around the same as Rampage if you have full accuracy and get 2-3 criticals. (This is when both of them are executed at 100 TP. There is of course more damage that can be dealt depending on gear and food.)

Now I don't know how high the chance of critical hits is with Rampage, but it shouldn't exceed 50% at 100 TP, including base rate and merit upgrades (Evisceration has 25% for example). This isn't accounting for dDEX bonus, but you won't get much on any kind of relevant content anyway. So unless they're lying, Ruinator will be noticeably better on average. Not game-breakingly better, but definitely noticeably. The only question now is whether or not they are capable of actually doing the math and implementing the WS as they said they would.

[Kimble]

Well, I rather believe what reliable people who have done testing have to say than a community rep. So far, from their testing, axe ws isnt all that great, nor is it better.

[hiko]

Really?

Typical poser adding nothing to a discussion that affects all of us.

This whole balance crusade really is starting to grate on my nerves. Were those weapon skills left alone, 100 points would be justifiable if only for the opportunity to rack up cruor. The way things stand now, the only motivation I see is amassing cruor. Be sure to thank the nearest Empyrean weapon owner who screamed bloody murder when these weapon skills were tested out initially.
totally wrong: the only WS that was tested to be always better than (a good) empy WS is shoha and wasn't nerfed. some of the WS was nerfed to be NOT BETTER THAN lvl 60 AUTO LEARNED WSes, multi hit WS have the <1ftp on all hits, some attack penality...



it's actually only 3
i count 4: 10+15=>20=>25=>30
use your old merit for stat before unlocking those


I don't think we should ignore the unlock requirement, seeing as the new WSs are very easy to get, if a little time consuming.

As far as I can tell, in terms of strength it should go Skill WSs < Merit WSs < Quested WSs < Trials WSs. If this isn't the case then fine, but it seems many people just want the new WSs to be uber because they are new. That's what people mean by balance.
do you realy think 1M xp is easier/take less time than 300WS and a lvl75NM?
we don't ask em to be UBBER but better than WS we used for 6years:
order should be skill<trial<nyzul/merit<empy/relic, some weapon still have the skill WS as their best(or best not relic/empy)




There was a discrepancy in my estamates I forgot to account for. @99 page 1 altep is only 1-2 stars, so 2k per page is missing.
sync to lvl90

[SpankWustler]

How about taking it from a Community Rep?

Now I don't know how high the chance of critical hits is with Rampage, but it shouldn't exceed 50% at 100 TP, including base rate and merit upgrades (Evisceration has 25% for example). This isn't accounting for dDEX bonus, but you won't get much on any kind of relevant content anyway. So unless they're lying, Ruinator will be noticeably better on average. Not game-breakingly better, but definitely noticeably. The only question now is whether or not they are capable of actually doing the math and implementing the WS as they said they would.

If I take their word for it and assume the change is either exactly as described or mirrors the change to Realmrazer, than Ruinator either has a ~40% attack penalty or a total fTP of ~2.4 since it has been adjusted.

I'll begrudgingly admit it can be kicked and beaten and gorgeted into a pretty good weaponskill if the fTP was the bit changed, but I'm still annoyed. It was a long, long way from out-performing the epic weaponskills of 2011 and I'm not sure why it had to be squashed down to be closer to Rampage. Even before the changes, Rampage was probably the better choice inside Abyssea.

Maybe it's the spirit of the matter, since balancing something against Rampage makes me feel like the development team still thinks it's 2004 and we're fighting Decorative Weapons.


Well, I rather believe what reliable people who have done testing have to say than a community rep. So far, from their testing, axe ws isnt all that great, nor is it better.

Could I get a link to some tests that have gone down since the adjustment(s) to Ruinator, please? I've been looking all over but can't find anything recent enough to post-date the changes.

I was really looking forward to new good Axe weaponskill and I absolutely love the throwing animation, so I'm really hopeful it's the fTP that's been changed rather than a huge attack penalty. If that's a case, at least throwing on a belt and a gorget will make it perform well enough and it won't be garbage against anything above Tough.

[Finuve]

So lets discuss which WSs need fixed, heres a list I put together in a hurry

Great:
Tachi: Shoha

Good:
Blade: Shun
Exenterator
Resolution
Shattersoul
Last Stand

Worthless Crap:
Upheaval
Entropy
Realrazer
Ruinator
Apex Arrow
Requiescat
Stardiver
Shijin Spiral

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these, but based on what I gathered its the WSs in the last section that SE needs to fix

[Sparthos]

That's a different issue though. The OP was bellyaching about the number of limit points required, not the strength of the weapon skills.

How do the weapon skills you get in the mid 60s and 70s stack against the low 60s skills?

Exactly what do people want? That's what I don't understand. Posts here are always long on complaints, short on solutions. If the new WS were equal to Empyrean/Relic/Mythic WS, that wouldn't be fair to the holders of those weapons who put in a lot more effort into getting them than it takes to get these new weapon skills.

If they were equal to mid-level weapon skills, the complaints would be the same.

So what do you want from the devs? And has anyone tried asking nicely instead of the usual tactic of throwing mean spirited temper tantrums?

Solutions? I got a bag full of those.

The new WS should have all had the potential to throughly beat their lowbie counterparts, tie with Empyreans at worst or been attached with some added effect utility that made them viable to unlock.

First lets dispel the myth that making these WS too powerful would somehow damage Empyreans/Relic. I leave out Mythic because most of the weaponskills are garbage but that is made up by impressive aftermaths that make up for it. King's Justice may not be that great but when you're able to turn a Conqueror into a Gaxe-flail, you're DPS is going to shoot through the roof for it.

If Upheaval turned out to throughly smoke Ukko's Fury, the ODD aftermath of using the Empyrean WS with the Empyrean would balance off the person with a normal Gaxe using Upheaval. Further, what would stop the Ukon player from simply upgrading to Upheaval and using the weaponskill themselves? You'd have situations where both these WS would see application.

Bravura's Metatron Torment may be weaker than Ukko's and my theoretical Upheaval but the utility aftermath and the break effects make up for the loss of damage and also make using Metatron situational in its application.

The problem is that SE wants to tear down rather than build up. Rather than boosting these WS out of the gate and then going back and tweaking the old WS to have added effects that made them situationally useful like say a cure-potency bonus for using Hexa Strike (which is limited to WHM only anyway) or a pet-crit boost for Rampage (cause BST are now the heir to axes) you wind up with heavy-handed nerfs that make some new WS useless while the word 'balance' is thrown around.

What's amusing is that they had no problems having some merit WS smoke their competition like Dagger, Gun or GKT but others were limited under the guise of balance? Internal consistency who? what?

[Neisan_Quetz]

So lets discuss which WSs need fixed, heres a list I put together in a hurry

Great:
Tachi: Shoha

Good:
Blade: Shun
Exenterator
Resolution
Shattersoul
Last Stand

Worthless Crap:
Upheaval
Entropy
Realrazer
Ruinator
Apex Arrow
Requiescat
Stardiver
Shijin Spiral

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these, but based on what I gathered its the WSs in the last section that SE needs to fix

What @ bolded

[Finuve]

What @ boldedI said let me know if I'm wrong, just going off what I've heard, however upheaval I have tested and it seems like crap, though I haven't been thorough

Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat are the worst offenders of these though

[Brolic]

I said let me know if I'm wrong, just going off what I've heard, however upheaval I have tested and it seems like crap, though I haven't been thorough

Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat are the worst offenders of these though
super wrong,
Shijin Spiral is actually the best of the added ws's and the best mnk ws when paired with relic h2h. Upheaval is only behind met. torment and ukko's fury, and apex is as good if not better than sidewinder.

[Finuve]

super wrong,
Shijin Spiral is actually the best of the added ws's and the best mnk ws when paired with relic h2h. Upheaval is only behind met. torment and ukko's fury, and apex is as good if not better than sidewinder.if its as good its a problem, it needs to be better than sidewinder, I'll take your word on Shijin, and test server is closed now isnt it? I cant test upheaval again but I could have definitely been wrong on that

Realmrazer
Entropy
Ruinator
Requiescat

these four need fixed badly, they are completely worthless

arguable
Apex Arrow (if it is indeed only as strong as sidewinder)

[Brolic]

I don't think Apex Arrowk gets the accuracy penalty that sidewinder gets, so that automatically makes it a better ws

[SpankWustler]

A few are definitely better than you've heard.



Worthless Crap:
Upheaval
Entropy
Realrazer
Ruinator
Apex Arrow
Requiescat
Stardiver
Shijin Spiral

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these, but based on what I gathered its the WSs in the last section that SE needs to fix

Upheaval is an absolute monster when used under the effect of Mighty Strikes, and does pretty well otherwise. Since any weaponskill that Great Axe/Warrior gains will be situational at this point, that seems good enough to me.

Shijin Spiral looks to be the weaponskill of choice for times when Impetus is down. It has a small attack bonus rather than the standard penalties that come with most of these weaponskills, so that helps a lot.

I can say with confidence that those two are useful.

I'm not sure how much Apex Arrow has been tested, so I'm hesitant to say it's good just from looking at the fTP. My guess is that people complained because they were expecting Apex Arrow to make like Jishnu's Radiance and scrape the anti-life equation into the evil crotch of whatever it was used upon.

[Finuve]

good deal SpankWuster, that all makes sense, and Brolic without the accuracy penalty that would be great for apex and enough to qualify it as not needing adjusted

so can we fully narrow it down to just asking for Realmrazer Entropy Ruinator and Requiescat to be adjusted? (and quietus hint hint)

[Sparthos]

super wrong,
Shijin Spiral is actually the best of the added ws's and the best mnk ws when paired with relic h2h. Upheaval is only behind met. torment and ukko's fury, and apex is as good if not better than sidewinder.

But is it any good for a MNK without Emp/Relic/Mythic?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Vereth Mnk should stick to smite - at least with Impetus up, and anyone without smite should just spam shijin.

[Brolic]

But is it any good for a MNK without Emp/Relic/Mythic?

yeah, it is

[Khajit]

Drop your LS and go solo then comeback and tell me that.

What is this 2007? Since when in the last few years has a ls been needed to do anything? Even an event like VW which is blatantly forcing 18 man setups upon us has become primarily a pickup event.

[saevel]

I said let me know if I'm wrong, just going off what I've heard, however upheaval I have tested and it seems like crap, though I haven't been thorough

Realmrazer, Entropy, Ruinator, Requiescat are the worst offenders of these though

Req is absolutely worthless period. If they would just remove the attack penality (-20%) then it would be inline with Vorpal Blade or slightly stronger depending on your gear and JA / JT. PLD/BLU/RDM aren't exactly known for critical hit bonus and high attack anyway.

[Alhanelem]

Pushing 270k per hour in a A- ulegurand party. 100 merits is nothing.

[Unaisis]

fully upgrade my Gkatana Ws Already ._. wasn't too bad

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Still got 5/5 in altep in less then 4 hours.

[macross]

100 merits is like 2 hours of xp. Not even hard.

5/5 exenterator didn't seem all that either. Maybe I need more agi gear, but seemed barely better vs evisc when I was using it in dyna farming EP last night.

[Atomic_Skull]

So lets discuss which WSs need fixed, heres a list I put together in a hurry

Great:
Tachi: Shoha

Good:
Blade: Shun
Exenterator
Resolution
Shattersoul
Last Stand

Worthless Crap:
Upheaval
Entropy
Realrazer
Ruinator
Apex Arrow
Requiescat
Stardiver
Shijin Spiral

Let me know if I'm wrong on any of these, but based on what I gathered its the WSs in the last section that SE needs to fix


Last Stand should be in "great" as it's currently the best Marskmanship WS for RNG and outside Abyssea it is the best ranged WS period (both hits on Last Stand are fTP 2~2.25 and both hits are affected by gorget + belt and together add .4 to fTP). Apex Arrow is also good because it's damage is basically the same as Sidewinder but without the ACC penalty and it's better against high level mobs because it ignores defense. Stardiver belongs in "good" because it doesn't have the Attack penalty that Penta Thust and Drakesbane have it better on high level targets.

You have to be trolling about Shijin Spiral, it's almost as good as Victory Smite outside Abyssea. Even inside Abyssea it's still the best H2H WS if you don't have VS.

Upheaval is the best non emp/relic Great Axe WS outside Abyssea.

After the adjustment Resolution is extremely good.


You're asking the wrong person to provide any proof, lol.

I could photoshop anything so "proof" is meaningless. You'll see I'm right soon enough anyway.

[Kimble]

For Cor, id assume wildfire is still better as long as the mob doesnt have mdt or high mdb.

[Atomic_Skull]

For Cor, id assume wildfire is still better as long as the mob doesnt have mdt or high mdb.

Wildfire can out damage Last stand inside Abyssea but you have to gimp all other aspects of your damage by equipping MAB INT and +fire damage atmas to achieve this. Outside Abyssea it's hard to see Wildfire doing more damage than Last Stand unless you're wearing a full MAB/INT set subbing BLM and using MAB rolls. Might make sense for COR but for RNG Last Stand is definitely the better WS.

From now on I see Archery getting pushed aside except for fights with high level mobs where you have to stand far back. The combination of Apex Arrow's ignore DEF and archery having a longer distance sweet spot will make it suited to these fights. For everything else Moros Crossbow + darkling bolts or dark adaman bolts (for things that resist darkness proc) is going to be RNG's highest damage weapon.

[Kimble]

If you are putting on INT gear for Wildfire, you are doing something very wrong.

[Atomic_Skull]

If you are putting on INT gear for Wildfire, you are doing something very wrong.

For some reason I had it in my head that INT affected magic WS but you are correct.

[Kimble]

So if thats the case, you really wouldnt know if wildfire or last stand is better for cor.

[Atomic_Skull]

So if thats the case, you really wouldnt know if wildfire or last stand is better for cor.

I only said it was better for RNG.

[Jackstin]

OK so the last LB10 is at least fairly challenging without the right strategy (although just spam Olde Rarab Tails seems to work very well). I've therefore changed my stance on these WSs. I don't know how good they are, but they should be far better than the standard ones because they're not as easy to get as I originally thought.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

100 merits is like 2 hours of xp. Not even hard.

5/5 exenterator didn't seem all that either. Maybe I need more agi gear, but seemed barely better vs evisc when I was using it in dyna farming EP last night.I know, but they said 10 hours and when I said 2-4 they said I was exaggerating, making up the numbers. lol

[Rohelius]

Right, go play solo in an "MMO".

Like Nynja pointed it out BST says Hi.

And yes solo in a MMO is not crazy. this is not the only MMO i play but it is the only one where most of the community thinks that when they kill a hard boss they actually believe they soloed it by themselves or something.

I found finding a group and explaining the tactics to sometimes inexperienced players is just like a handicap and it holds me back a lot when it happens so if i had the option to go at it alone the reward would be much more satisfying and in my opinion a hundred times more earned.

And if you think killing a NM with a group and getting the tittle is some sort of achievement try playing a game where you have to kill all NM in the game to even start building a tittle to wear around towns then turn on Hard Mode and Vanquish entire maps to start maxing out the tittle.

[Kimble]

Saying "want a challenge? go play solo" doesnt really fix anything though. Nor is it constructive at all. The game was built around community and taking out the team work aspect of the game, kinda gets rid of what the game was suppose to be about.

[Rohelius]

Nope go play solo, its actually pretty fun and much more rewarding(ego-wise) you just think i am
being a D about it and saying it in a angry context.

[Finuve]

Nope go play solo, its actually pretty fun and much more rewarding(ego-wise) you just think i am
being a D about it and saying it in a angry context.solo is incredibly boring and provides me with absolutely no sense of accomplishment, if I'm going to play by myself I'll drown another hundred hours into skyrim

[Cowardlybabooon]

Has anyone considered that the level cap is now 99 and you will soon be complaining that you have no reason to exp or merit and have nothing to spend merits on. You don't need to complain if you can't have everything the day the update comes out. Also, 10 merits an hour is not far fetched at all, and you will be 99 so you're stronger. Weaponskill power I can't comment on yet though.

[Aldersyde]

solo is incredibly boring and provides me with absolutely no sense of accomplishment, if I'm going to play by myself I'll drown another hundred hours into skyrim

Nothing says accomplishment like getting 1-2 hits on mob being beat on by a bunch a DDs before it dies and then doing it for hours and hours ad nauseum. Or going afk while people kill mobs for you. Or waiting around while a mob gets proced and then gang rushing it.

[xbobx]

Pushing 270k per hour in a A- ulegurand party. 100 merits is nothing.

ya but you have to zone out and go from 600 xp per kill back down to 100 and rebuild, so take that into consideration.

[Alhanelem]

Cooperation in itself is an accomplishment; this is why you get a greater sense of accomplishment by teaming up to beat something (that necessitates it).

Although I don't think solo play should be innately discouraged (many people simply like being in an active, changing world, they don't necessarily like working with all the other people in it), I don't think saying "go solo it" is an acceptable solution to grouping problems. There should be plenty of things that can be done solo and plenty of things that can be done in a standard group. They need to cut back on stuff that is difficult without an alliance, as alliances tend to be more frustrating as you're depending on a larger number of people to not mess up, and that's assuming you can gather that many in the first place.

[Runespider]

I would of prefered the WS cost 10x as much if they were the new standard 99 ws, as it is most aren't worth the time you do put in anyway.

Maybe they will listen to the rage and add higher upgrades (I doubt it though) balance and shit.

[Ravenmore]

What I find BS is half of them are not even worth it at 5/5. With how fast we get exp now you would also thing it would be a good idea to let us merit all of them, not much of a added time sink but its still a time sink.

[Corres]

inb4: this is a mmo. they want you to play it long time.

[Meyi]

Um, weren't people just complaining about having nothing to waste all of their wasted merit points on before the update? Shouldn't we be thanking the devs for a huge merit sink so we can keep playing in Abyssea without feeling like we're wasting our time in there?

If the weapon skills are that bad, you don't have to waste the time trying to get them. Be happy with the stronger innate weapon skills and move on...

This forum confuses me.

[FrankReynolds]

Um, weren't people just complaining about having nothing to waste all of their wasted merit points on before the update? Shouldn't we be thanking the devs for a huge merit sink so we can keep playing in Abyssea without feeling like we're wasting our time in there?

If the weapon skills are that bad, you don't have to waste the time trying to get them. Be happy with the stronger innate weapon skills and move on...

This forum confuses me.

I don't recall anyone saying they wanted to waste merits on crap. We could already delete and re add merits to our hearts content. People wanted the merits to actually do something.

[Ravenmore]

inb4: this is a mmo. they want you to play it long time.

You failed to see THAT was my point. Why limit it to just being able to cap just 3 when allowing you to cap them all would end up with you playing longer I.E a time sink but no they said you can only cap 3 out 5/5. The only logic that only letting you cap 3 out would be so you removed the merits to cap out another weapon but when half are crap and the other half are between ok and good its not hard to pick 3 and never look back. If they were all between ok and good I could see it but lets be real.

[Greatguardian]

Be sure to thank the nearest Empyrean weapon owner who screamed bloody murder when these weapon skills were tested out initially.

Like who? And where?

I mean, it's so recent, I'm sure you can find these Empyrean weapon holders crying foul pretty easily.

But you won't, because this is just another typical Hayward hatin' post. You so mad, bro.

[SpankWustler]

Um, weren't people just complaining about having nothing to waste all of their wasted merit points on before the update? Shouldn't we be thanking the devs for a huge merit sink so we can keep playing in Abyssea without feeling like we're wasting our time in there?

You could also go in another direction with this line of thought.

People would be happier than a homeless man in a heated public restroom if all of the merit weaponskills had the same utility as Tachi: Shoha and cost five or ten million limit points to cap.

As it is, putting merits in some of the under-performing weaponskills is pretty much the same as switching merits around for Voidwatch procs. Just a function of being at capped merits in a time when merits come easily. That's no change.

[Atomic_Skull]

I don't understand why people keep repeating that all the new WS suck when that is in fact only true for 4 of them.

[Kimble]

I don't understand why people keep repeating that all the new WS suck when that is in fact only true for 4 of them.

Most are either bad, or can be slightly better. Only about 3 or 4 are really that great. Others are situational and outdone by empy ws due to ODD.

[Caria]

1,000,000 limit points took me all of 4.5 hours to get for it. Why the complaints? When you can exp at 300-375k exp per hour in abyssea, a million isn't that hard to get.

[Greatguardian]

I finished Last Stand and Shoha the day the update went live. The fact that near every good Empyrean/Relic on the server was out exp'ing certainly helped. I was rocking 500k/hr+ for most of the time.

[Nynja]

The amount of merits pales in comparison to the fact that most of the WS's 5/5'd are either downgrades to whats readily available or sidegrades.

[Serei]

Open question: Does anyone actually enjoy this game? You people sure do complain a lot.

Capping ability upgrades for one stat back in the old days was 45 merit points, when getting 20,000 an hour was extraordinary. Now you get 4 to 5 times that much, and this 100 merit points is a smidge over half that. Heck, I did Bostaneiux Oubliette book burn a few days ago and was getting like 95k an hour, and that was average. Capping one new weapon skill is something you can do in an afternoon.

Maybe that's the dev team's logic; that something that doesn't take all that much effort to get shouldn't be all that great.

Actually, yes I do still enjoy the game, much more so since i can spend time with friends that i've made over the years ive been playing.

[saevel]

1,000,000 limit points took me all of 4.5 hours to get for it. Why the complaints? When you can exp at 300-375k exp per hour in abyssea, a million isn't that hard to get.

Don't lie.

The issue is you can only hold 30 merits at once. And each upgrade consumes an amount of merits that makes it impossible to deplete your tank.

10 -> 15 -> 20 -> 25 -> 30

After the first two upgrades you'd be running back out and resetting your monster count and gold light. Then each upgrade would entail you to reset it again along with left over merits that you couldn't really use. Capping STR and HP/MP had my running into this problem.

1 million isn't that hard to get, but it's not something you'll be doing that fast either.

[Agetos]

I'm going to keep this short and to the point.


With a few exceptions, most of the new "Meritable Weaponskills" are sidegrades to current available weaponskills when merited to 5/5.
It takes 100 merit points to upgrade one weaponskill to 5/5. That is one million limit points.
Considering they are weaker than current alternatives if merited to 4/5 or less, it is pointless to merit them any lower than 5/5.


The question I would like the community reps to forward to the Dev Team is pretty straight forward:
Considering the disclaimer displayed before logging into the game, who on the Development Team thought it would be a good idea for players to spend time gathering one million limit points for a weaponskill that is no better than current alternatives, and why?

We have received comments from the development team about their goals for some of the weaponskills. They openly admit that they want them to be side-grades. The question is, how can they justify one million limit points for a sidegrade?

Finished Ruinator the second day after update, took only 4 merit dumps hardly a difficult thing to do, and for jobs that don't have empyreans weapons like my beast it's good to see a new ws that can beat rampage in dmg and looks.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

1 million isn't that hard to get, but it's not something you'll be doing that fast either.Then you're doing it wrong, because 4.5 hours is a little on teh long side. You're probably leaving the moment you have 10/15/20/25/30 instead of capping each time. You lose your chain you know.

[Psxpert2011]

I'm going to keep this short and to the point.

The question I would like the community reps to forward to the Dev Team is pretty straight forward:
Considering the disclaimer displayed before logging into the game, who on the Development Team thought it would be a good idea for players to spend time gathering one million limit points for a weaponskill that is no better than current alternatives, and why?

We have received comments from the development team about their goals for some of the weaponskills. They openly admit that they want them to be side-grades. The question is, how can they justify one million limit points for a sidegrade?


Oh please, you could've made it shorter... we're very busy adventurers. It's about time the FFxi DEV team do something to piss off the NOOBs. If it were me, I'd make it 3mil so you'd quit the game.

Calm down, you could go in a corner and cry alone(unless you have friends to cry with). If I can't make 100 merits after they kindly upgraded 20/20 to 30/30 merits you can hold, maybe I don't deserve WS upgrades... should'nt waste my time with so much other things to do in this MMORPG.

[SpankWustler]

I don't understand why people keep repeating that all the new WS suck when that is in fact only true for 4 of them.

My problem is with which weaponskills are disappointing. I feel like the Development Bros worked hard to assure average-to-above-average weaponskills for weapons that only had average-to-above-average options thus far, such as Polearm, Scythe, and Axe. When I try to ascertain why, I can only do a Jackie Chan impression.

Why shouldn't every weapon have a Jishnu's Radiance/Ukko's Fury/Victory Smite/Tachi: Shoha level weaponskill attainable through some means, whatever those means are?


Oh please, you could've made it shorter... we're very busy adventurers. It's about time the FFxi DEV team do something to piss off the NOOBs. If it were me, I'd make it 3mil so you'd quit the game.

Calm down, you could go in a corner and cry alone(unless you have friends to cry with). If I can't make 100 merits after they kindly upgraded 20/20 to 30/30 merits you can hold, maybe I don't deserve WS upgrades... should'nt waste my time with so much other things to do in this MMORPG.

You have missed the main point of this topic.

[Psxpert2011]

You have missed the main point of this topic.


I can't miss what's not there. I'm setting up and hitting on my own points. What's yours'?

[SpankWustler]

I can't miss what's not there. I'm setting up and hitting on my own points. What's yours'?

The complaint is not that the weaponskills cost one million limit points. The complaint is that several of the weaponskills are side-grades that cost one million limit points.

A lot of people are basically overlooking the word "dead" in the sentence "I'm not paying a hundred dollars for a dead pure-bred puppy with papers included." and saying that the price is next-to-nothing for such a product. The problem isn't the price-point, it's the attempt to sell a dead puppy.

Of course it's next-to-nothing. Five or ten million wouldn't be any sweat either. However, in the case of the weaponskills that are meant to be Rampage +.05 or Drakesbane -.05 or Guillotine (Again[Again]), it just feels insulting for there to be any transaction at all. It's the principle of it.

[Buffy]

The complaint is not that the weaponskills cost one million limit points. The complaint is that several of the weaponskills are side-grades that cost one million limit points.

A lot of people are basically overlooking the word "dead" in the sentence "I'm not paying a hundred dollars for a dead pure-bred puppy with papers included." and saying that the price is next-to-nothing for such a product. The problem isn't the price-point, it's the attempt to sell a dead puppy.

Of course it's next-to-nothing. Five or ten million wouldn't be any sweat either. However, in the case of the weaponskills that are meant to be Rampage +.05 or Drakesbane -.05 or Guillotine (Again[Again]), it just feels insulting for there to be any transaction at all. It's the principle of it.

If they are side-grades and not worth your time, then don't bother.

What's the problem?

[SpankWustler]

If they are side-grades and not worth your time, then don't bother.

What's the problem?

There isn't a problem, honestly. I'd just prefer to have the same excitement about upgrading Ruinator that I do about upgrading Last Stand. Instead, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop when someone attempts to Ruinate something with high defense and hoping that shoe isn't too heavy.

My last post sounded a lot more aggravated than I actually am, I guess. That's what I get for holding in a burning, churning poop to type it up.

[Ravenmore]

I can't miss what's not there. I'm setting up and hitting on my own points. What's yours'?

So sam gets to have a WS thats as good or better then Emp. but others jobs can't get a WS better then a free lvl 60 one. Better yet how about whm getting told they wanted the WS to be better for jobs that don't use club for anything other then procing. Only time I thought about using club on blu before abyssea was the Slashing immune floor in limbus.

[Kimble]

I like how people are pretty much ok with "Im going to let SE punch me in the face while I pay them $10 to do so."

No one is saying 1 million merits is hard. Its just to ask for so much for a WS that isnt that much better.

As for "if you dont like it, dont do it" Why even waste time making content that people won't do because its pointless?

[wish12oz]

If they are side-grades and not worth your time, then don't bother.

What's the problem?

The poroblem is that the 4 people who actually make this game spent a ton of time making them, and they're #*%^ing useless. Their time would of been better spent doing something else that people will actually want to use/is worth doing.

Or SE could just make them useful, so all the time they put into them actually matters.

[Atomic_Skull]

Most are either bad, or can be slightly better. Only about 3 or 4 are really that great. Others are situational and outdone by empy ws due to ODD.

You really expected free WS to outperform empyrean WS?

Really?


As long as they are better than other free WS they are fine. And most of them are.


options thus far, such as Polearm, Scythe, and Axe.

Stardiver is fTP .75 on all hits, but because it has non 1.0 fTP on 2'nd to 4'th hits they also recieve the fTP bonus from belt and gorget. Therefor by wearing these the WS gains .8 to it's total fTP. Also Stardiver doesn't have anti Berserk like Drakesbane. or a pdiff penalty like Penta Thrust.

Ruinator doesn't spike as high as Rampage but it's average damage is consistently higher.

[Meyi]

Ah, I can see the reason for being upset now. :( I'm sorry they're not so great even upgraded. I hope that for everyone's sake (devs too because they spent time making them!) that they get improved. I think the amount of limit points is good, but the damage should at least reflect the time put into them...

[Alhanelem]

Therefor by wearing these the WS gains .8 to it's total fTP.But this is still a weakness, because the subsequent hits are still less than 1.0 which all other multi-hit weapon skills have. In order for this characteristic (propgation of fTP) to be viewable as a benefit and not a nerfing mechanism, the fTP value would have to be at least 0.9 (which would make the fTP 1.0 on all hits when wearing a gorget).

TL;DR: The propogation of the fTP value to all hits is to limit the weaponskill's power, not enhance it. These weaponskills would be more powerful overall if the fTP was only different on the first hit.

[Atomic_Skull]

But this is still a weakness, because the subsequent hits are still less than 1.0 which all other multi-hit weapon skills have. In order for this characteristic (propgation of fTP) to be viewable as a benefit and not a nerfing mechanism, the fTP value would have to be at least 0.9 (which would make the fTP 1.0 on all hits when wearing a gorget).


It's still better that Drakesbane (outside abyssea) or Penta Thrust because it doesn't have -20% attack (Drakes) or a pdiff penalty (Penta)

[Ravenmore]

You really expected free WS to outperform empyrean WS?

Really?


As long as they are better than other free WS they are fine. And most of them are.



Stardiver is fTP .75 on all hits, but because it has non 1.0 fTP on 2'nd to 4'th hits they also recieve the fTP bonus from belt and gorget. Therefor by wearing these the WS gains .8 to it's total fTP. Also Stardiver doesn't have anti Berserk like Drakesbane. or a pdiff penalty like Penta Thrust.

Ruinator doesn't spike as high as Rampage but it's average damage is consistently higher.

So what about sam huh. We are not saying it should be better they should better then a level 60 WS. What we got is the one that are better(even slightly) were given to jobs that already had good WS. Only use blu has for the sword WS is to SSC, so it really is like they are begging people to use windower. On top of all else you get to have only 3 merited to worth a crap levels. Its not just one thing its the whole package that sucks.

[Kimble]

You really expected free WS to outperform empyrean WS?

Really?


As long as they are better than other free WS they are fine. And most of them are.

No, if you knew how to follow a conversation, you'd know i've been saying that level 99, 360+ skill WS worth 100 merits should be better than a level 60, 200 skill WS.

You keep saying so many of them are good, yet others who are actually accountable and do testing have shown other wise.

[Theytak]

TO EVERYONE SAYING "I don't understand what you're arguing" "Boohoo, 1,000,000 merits isn't a lot" "these ws aren't as bad as you whiners are making it out to be" or anything else that comes off with a similar tone/meaning;

allow me to explain in detail the issue with these new WS.

Of the fourteen WS;

Tachi: Shoha and Last Stand: Provide very powerful ws that rival or surpass the other, already powerful alternatives

Exenterator and Resolution: Provide strong ws that can rival (resolution) or exceed (exenterator) their previously limited or weak ws selection

Shijin Spiral, Upheaval, Apex Arrow, and Blade: Shun: Provide decently powerful ws that soundly defeat the non-empyrean ws available

Shattersoul: Completely destroys every other ws for it's weapon skill, like tachi: shoha, but does so because staff weaponskills are all garbage anyway.

Ruinator and Realmrazer: Were intentionally weakened so as to not exceed, but rather, deal the same average damage as ws gained far earlier (rampage and hexa strike, respectively)

Entropy and Stardiver: Were not stated to be, but are very obviously intended to fall in to the same line as ruinator and realmrazer, not exceeding previous ws, but doing the same average damage, or less in stardiver's case.

Requiescat: is complete garbage

Before these ws were available:
Great Katana had several strong ws, and had even stronger relic and empyrean ws
Marksmanship had several moderately strong ws, and a very powerful empyrean ws
Dagger had a large variety of ws that dealt similar damage in different situations, but no one universally powerful ws
Greatsword had torcleaver and otherwise sucked
Hand-to-Hand had moderately powerful ws (asuran fists), and a very powerful empyrean ws (pups get stringing pummel, which rivals victory smite in terms of damage potential when VS was used by a pup, but wouldn't be able to compete with a mnk using VS)
Great axe had two fairly strong ws, two situationally strong ws, and a very powerful empyrean ws
Archery had the same moderately strong ws as marksmanship, and a very powerful empyrean ws
Katana has one moderately strong ws, and a very powerful empyrean ws
Staff had nothing but crap
Axe had one moderately strong ws that was lackluster when compared to other weapons, and the weakest melee empyrean ws
Club had one moderately strong ws that was limited to a single, non-melee job, and one very situational ws (true strike)
Scythe had several ws that all did the same average amount of damage, but none that were strong compared to other weapons, and a fairly lack luster empyrean ws (that does roughly the same amount of damage as every other scythe ws)
Polearm had one strong ws, one mediocre ws, and a laughable empyrean ws that was only a step above Axe
Sword had one moderately strong ws, one (two for pld) situational ws for damage resistant monsters that SE stopped players from using by giving every new NM worth fighting an incredibly powerful resistance to the damage type of that ws, and a very powerful empyrean ws

These new ws cause the following changes:
Great Katana gets another very powerful ws, that is arguably more powerful than any ws previously added to the game
Marksmanship gets another strong ws that can be used in the situations where the powerful empyrean is less appealing
Dagger gets another strong ws that is slightly stronger than it's previous half dozen sidegrade ws
Great Sword gets a non-empyrean ws that isn't awful
Hand-to-Hand gets a new ws that effectively gives monks a ws between asuran fists and victory smite (shijin spiral is a "more consistent" version of stringing pummel), giving non-empyrean mnks a new top ws
Great Axe gets another strong ws that fills both general damage and situationally powerful slots, for non-empyrean wars
Archery gets another strong ws that gives non-empyrean rngs a new top ws
Katana gets a moderate side-grade ws for higher-defense mobs
Staff gets a ws that doesn't suck
Axe gets a second ws menu option for the ws "rampage" that results in more consistent, but not any better, damage
Club gets a second ws menu option for the ws "hexastrike" that results in more consistent, but not any better, damage, and allows jobs other than whm to use a non-situational club ws
Scythe gets its fifth ws menu option for the ws "guillotine" that deals approximately the same damage but has a different additional effect
Polearm gets a middle of the road ws that replaces the level 49 ws for drgs who don't have their mythic ws quested
Sword gets nothing of value whatsoever

The new ws thus do this for jobs:
Sam: Gets another very strong ws, which is stronger than it's very powerful empyrean ws
Rng: gets one very strong ws that rivals its marksmanship empyrean ws, and a second strong ws for non-empyrean archery
Dnc, Thf: get another slightly stronger ws
Drk: Gets a useable non-empyrean great sword ws, and a fifth version of the scythe ws it got at level 60
Mnk, Pup: gets a new top ws for non-empyrean mnks and pups, and pups that don't have stringing pummel
War: gets a new top ws for non-ukko wars, and another version of rampage meaning that 1h axes will remain unused
Nin: gets a better ws for tanking high defense mobs
Mages: get a ws that doesn't suck
Bst: gets another version of rampage
Drg: gets a replacement for penta thrust, if they don't have drakesbane
Pld, Blu, Rdm: get absolutely nothing of value whatsoever

However, all of this requires 5/5 for a given ws, thus capping us to 3 per character. As it stands:
Tachi: Shoha, Last Stand, Exenterator, and Shattersoul are worth meriting (4 of 14)
Shijin Spiral, Apex Arrow, Blade: Shun, Resolution, and Upheaval are worth meriting if you don't have an empyrean weapon (5 of 14)
Stardiver is worth meriting if you're a drg main and you don't have drakesbane, but you would be better spent getting drakesbane instead
Ruinator, Realmrazer, Entropy, and Requiescat are absolutely not worth meriting (4 of 14)

The problem is this: With a 3 ws cap, all of the upgrade for non-empy holder ws suddenly lose a lot of value, effectively leaving 2/3 of these ws worthless. Everyone will eventually end up with Tachi Shoha/Last Stand/Exenterator as their 5/5s, because those will be the only ws worth meriting.

[Olor]

I'm not saying they are perfect or even anywhere near right at the moment. I'm just saying that having Merited WSs stronger than Standard WSs, but weaker than ones you have to Quest for, makes total sense.

This only "makes total sense" in a world where half of the quested weaponskills don't suck. Cloudsplitter says hi.

[Jackstin]

This only "makes total sense" in a world where half of the quested weaponskills don't suck. Cloudsplitter says hi.

Ok well let me rephrase what I'm saying. These new merited WSs should be pretty good, an improvement on normal WSs, but not uber.

[Tavien]

Im a a dragoon. I don't have drakesbane. I want drakesbane. The only way to obtain drakesbane is Nyzul Isle. I suppose I could run floor 1 a million times and hope I get lucky but I'll be doing WS points til the universe dies a heat death before I unlock it. I was looking forward to these new WS and sadly all Im getting is a sense of they're all pretty awful. Except for Sam. Which excels.

Sam in never recieving a bad update shocker. Alert the media!

[Brolic]

Im a a dragoon. I don't have drakesbane. I want drakesbane. The only way to obtain drakesbane is Nyzul Isle. I suppose I could run floor 1 a million times and hope I get lucky but I'll be doing WS points til the universe dies a heat death before I unlock it. I was looking forward to these new WS and sadly all Im getting is a sense of they're all pretty awful. Except for Sam. Which excels.

Sam in never recieving a bad update shocker. Alert the media!

so 1 million ws point sureeee, but 10nyzul runs isnt?

[Tavien]

Im not sure you're entirely getting my point.

1 Million WS points isn't going to work for me. However, how am I meant to climb Nyzul when the best party I can throw together struggles to clear floor 15? Oh, I know! I can shout! For people! Who won't want to join.

Please do tell me what a dragoon is supposed to do to gain access to their only decent WS when they can't get support to actually do the required event?

[Theytak]

so 1 million ws point sureeee, but 10nyzul runs isnt?

getting to 100 nyzul is harder than getting 100 merit points these days, I won't disagree, but given that of the twenty nyzul ws, only a couple are worth the effort for more than a situational tool, it's understandable that a lot of people don't bother these days.

That said, telling us they're going to give us the Final skill based WS for our weapons with the 99 cap, and then yanking it away from us by actually giving us the most asinine system imaginable and making it so we can only have three not suck, and making a large number of them effectively worthless by making 1-2 of them absolutely amazing is just obnoxious.


Im not sure you're entirely getting my point.

1 Million WS points isn't going to work for me. However, how am I meant to climb Nyzul when the best party I can throw together struggles to clear floor 15? Oh, I know! I can shout! For people! Who won't want to join.

Please do tell me what a dragoon is supposed to do to gain access to their only decent WS when they can't get support to actually do the required event?

find some friends that aren't completely inept? Nyzul wasn't hard at 75, it just hand random impossible floors that everyone had to deal with and got screwed over by. At 99, if you've got a group of 4-5 people with any intelligence and half-decent gear, you should be able to smoke nyzul in your sleep. the only thing that will slow you down is the 1 assault tag per 24 hours crap, and random obnoxious lamp floors.

[Greatguardian]

It should be functionally impossible to fail floor 15 at 95-99 with the minimum people required for entry... like you'd have to try to fail and afk the whole time to do it.

[Tavien]

And again we come back to FIND PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD AT THE GAME. Brilliant.

Because all my problems are solved by just hoping to find people who are experts who haven't already banded together into a low man power house already.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It should be functionally impossible to fail floor 15 at 95-99 with the minimum people required for entry... like you'd have to try to fail and afk the whole time to do it.

I can attest to watching a group fail F10 at 90, it was epicly hilarious.

[Theytak]

And again we come back to FIND PEOPLE WHO ARE GOOD AT THE GAME. Brilliant.

Because all my problems are solved by just hoping to find people who are experts who haven't already banded together into a low man power house already.
no one said experts. We said "people who aren't stupid".

Whm Puller/Sleeper DDx3-4 is all you need for nyzul success. If you happen to have a good (read: not talking totally done with abyssea 95 empy weapon, I don't even mean someone with full AF3+2) DD, they can probably pull the weight of two DDs easy.

Whm heals, brd and rdm can both pretty effectively pull/sleep, or have a blm or a sch for sleeps and get a nin/thf/dnc/rng/randommeleejobwitharangedattackandshadows to pull, let the other melees chew threw target mobs, go up to the next floor, rinse, repeat. If you get lamps, pray for "everyone hits one" or "same time", especially if you don't have a full party of 6. If you get soulflayers and dahaks... hell, you're level 95-99 now, just slaughter them. Fight Fafnir on his feet, not his tail or in front of him. turtle, behemoth, cerb, khimi, and hydra are all cakewalks; all of them just pop your 2hour and go for broke. they won't last 2 minutes. probably won't last 1.

Seriously, nyzul isn't hard.

[Prothscar]

Don't even need a WHM, RDM or SCH can handle it, would even say RDM or SCH are superior to WHM. Nyzul wasn't hard at 75, at 99 it's merely a "let's see if we can beat it in 10 minutes this time!" sort of deal. You don't even need a full group, 3 or 4 people can clear any floor with no problem. Could even clear 10 floors per tag if your group is good enough.

To avoid failure due to lack of reading comprehension on lamp floors, administer a short English language test previous to entry.

[Theytak]

Don't even need a WHM, RDM or SCH can handle it, would even say RDM or SCH are superior to WHM. Nyzul wasn't hard at 75, at 99 it's merely a "let's see if we can beat it in 10 minutes this time!" sort of deal. You don't even need a full group, 3 or 4 people can clear any floor with no problem. Could even clear 10 floors per tag if your group is good enough.

To avoid failure due to lack of reading comprehension on lamp floors, administer a short English language test previous to entry.

can we just make that English language test mandatory for anyone making an English account, and include a monthly revisit of it with randomized questions? Also, I said whm because of how OP whm healing with cureskin would make easy mode even easier.

[Alerith]

I'm currently at 3/5 upgrades for Resolution.

Can anyone give me some insight on it at 5/5?

Last I heard, it was on par if not better than Torcleaver. At 3/5, I'm just past Spinning Slash.

[Tavien]

I appreciate the insight but it does nothing to help me with the fact whenever I try to put a group together I don't have the choice to say "you're not good enough, no thanks" and im usually going to be stuck with whatever is available.

This doesn't change the notion I came into the thread to express, I was looking forward to a lot of these weaponskills and they're seemingly underwhelming. I, personally, was hoping for a more achievable alternative to Drakesbane and apparently that's not what we got.

[Atomic_Skull]

No, if you knew how to follow a conversation, you'd know i've been saying that level 99, 360+ skill WS worth 100 merits should be better than a level 60, 200 skill WS.

You keep saying so many of them are good, yet others who are actually accountable and do testing have shown other wise.

Nobody is "accountable" on the internet lol.




Entropy and Stardiver: Were not stated to be, but are very obviously intended to fall in to the same line as ruinator and realmrazer, not exceeding previous ws, but doing the same average damage, or less in stardiver's case.

Stardiver actually does more damage than Drakesbane on anything that doesn't have gimp DEF because Drakesbane has a -20% attack penalty.


Marksmanship had several moderately strong ws, and a very powerful empyrean ws

Wildfire sucks outside Abyssea and inside it's only good if you gimp your physical damage by equipping MAB and fire damage atmas.


I'm currently at 3/5 upgrades for Resolution.

Can anyone give me some insight on it at 5/5?



Belt/Gorget gives a 1.0 fTP bonus to Resolution thanks to it's non 1.0 fTP on the second ~ fifth hits.

[Tavien]

Decided what the hell, broke the cap tonight and dragoon has always been my focus. Might as well pour a gazillion merits into stardiver. At the very least im going to look badass XD

[Kimble]

Wildfire sucks outside Abyssea and inside it's only good if you gimp your physical damage by equipping MAB and fire damage atmas.

All you did was prove you are a moron. lol

[Atomic_Skull]

All you did was prove you are a moron. lol

Well I guess if you're a COR it might not.

[Kimble]

RNG can gear for Wildfire just as well as COR so it really shouldn't make a huge difference. The only difference between my RNG and COR WF sets is Seriyu kotes over those +9 AGI hands. Well, and AF3+2 feet.

Well, my mistake. COR does get the Fire shot bonus.

RNG has relic gun though so if you can get that, would be best WS overall for RNG.

[scaevola]

It should be functionally impossible to fail floor 15 at 95-99 with the minimum people required for entry... like you'd have to try to fail and afk the whole time to do it.

Maybe if you had morons and got like 3 different lamp floors

oh who am i kidding



Also, does Shoha not have a particularly significant accuracy bonus like the other GK WSes? Was using it last night and noticing Consequences of the Heafoc/Varangian variety.

[Finuve]

I got 5/5 Shoha, I had to gimp myself with justice torque + AF3 body just to be able to use the WS cuz my GK skill was gimp and it was still retarded powerful

I was hitting 3-4k on Sharabha in altepa who I was skilling up off of

of course this is dumb, what I'm hearing is its better than Fudo, seriously SE WTF was with your explanation of nerfing realmrazer and ruinator yet you do this with Shoha? seriously, nerf Shoha just a bit and buff realmrazer entropy ruinator and requiescat (and FFS quietus and Camlann's tormetn while your at it)

[Dirtyfinger]

Maybe if you had morons and got like 3 different lamp floors

oh who am i kidding



Also, does Shoha not have a particularly significant accuracy bonus like the other GK WSes? Was using it last night and noticing Consequences of the Heafoc/Varangian variety.


I'd assume the first hit has an accuracy bonus, but not the second.

[Ophannus]

SAM needed a STRONGER WS? These WS should have bridged the gap between jobs with lousy damage Empyrean WS and jobs with great Empyrean WS not make it worse! Fudo already does outstanding damage in and outside abyssea. Polearm, Axe, Scythe and Club need a hefty boost to make up for Camlann's Torment/Quietus sucking so bad. Remove all "Attack Penalties" from WS please they're unnecessary. Almost every WS is worse or just as good as Empyrean WS but jobs that ALREADY HAD STRONG Empyrean WS got EVEN STRONGER ones.

While we're at it, remove Attack Penalty from Drakesbane. I can see why they'd add it in the first place, a 4hit crit ws on a 2handed weapon seems overpowered without some kind of drawback but the fact that DRG's Attack Rating is already lower than most DDs due to lack of Berserk/Last Resort/Boost and other +Attack boosting skills, leaving it at neutral attack bonus would have been fine. Not only do DRGs have lousy Attack but the Attack Penalty makes it even worse for high level notorious monsters meanwhile WAR MNK and SAM can hack away with their amazingly damaging WS without a care in the world whether the mob is high or low defense they still do 4k+ damage while Drakesbane struggles to deal over 1500.

[Finuve]

I didnt notice any accuracy issues compared to YGK, however I do have pretty good accuracy on my WS set with twilight body/helm (25 acc 25 DEX) (cancels out heafoc easily)

[scaevola]

I'd assume the first hit has an accuracy bonus, but not the second.


Dunno; getting a lot more 1-tp-returns than my hit rate during TP phase would suggest. Getting a Jinpu vibe, but that could just because I was using Jinpu for amber while screwing around with it.

lol eyeballing but I've had it for about 36 hours, so. Worst case scenario is that it just makes twilight helm/mail more important for scrubs like me than it already was, but I'd have rather not dumped that kind of cruor unless it was necessary.


On topic, Shoha is REALLY strong, but it should have been the standard for the new WSes, not the outlier. 85 Empyrean-holders ought not stand head and shoulders above those without, for simple balance reasons; they are common enough to be considered standard, so content ought to be balanced around DDs capable of a damage output on par with an 85 Empyrean, but forcing people to slog through deprecated content just to be competitive is something FFXI ought to be willing to leave behind.

The benefit to making an 85 Empyrean ought to be going on to make a higher-level Empyrean; if you choose not to do this, it would have been perfectly fine for the benefit to be to not have to invest WS merits in that particular weapon skill, thus saving them for a different job.

[Theytak]

honestly, the more I look at these ws, the more I feel that rather than shoha, which is just stupidly op, shijin spiral should be more of the standard for them.

Shijin Spiral is not stronger than victory smite, though it competes rather well against high def mobs, from what I understand. Shijin Spiral handily beats every other h2h ws for monk, including asuran fists, effectively giving non-empy mnks an upgrade. It's not really an upgrade for pup, since it's basically about as strong as stringing pummel, just more consistent with lower spikes. It's pretty much the ideal for what these WS should be. They shouldn't be the absolute best WS, otherwise it screws over a large part of the draw for empy weapons (and sadly, relic weapons, since people don't typically learn how horrible most relic ws are until after they get the weapon), but they should provide a next best alternative for people without r/m/e weapons. Sadly, only a handful of them do that successfully, and SE didn't like that they gave two weapons which were in need of a SERIOUS ws upgrade, a SERIOUS ws upgrade, so they nerfed it.

Balance my left buttcheek.

[Psxpert2011]

I seriously think this thread should be locked. It's not looking good and no one seems to be discussing this subject maturely whether to point out the pros and cons about 1 mil point gaining. Throwing name calling around and arguing doesn't make a good discussion just between two people who share a different opinion.

We here all care about the same game and would rather it be challenging than any other MMO which gives away anything on a silver platter. If you're 21 or under, majority of you haven't grown up yet despite you legal ability to drink brew. If you're educated enough, you would understand what I'm saying and stop feeding the trolls.

Sucks to see this up on the new post list all the time where there's nothing new to learn about ffxi =/

::: May the moderators review this thread and LOCK IT if need be :::

[Arcon]

Sucks to see this up on the new post list all the time where there's nothing new to learn about ffxi =/

::: May the moderators review this thread and LOCK IT if need be :::

The irony. Revived a dead thread to tell people to stop arguing.

[FrankReynolds]

The irony. Revived a dead thread to tell people to stop arguing.

Not only that, but the people arguing were actually sharing info in between the curses and insults.

[Khajit]

Moderators actually reading a thread? Jolly good joke there. I give a hearty guffaw to that.

[Atomic_Skull]

I'm currently at 3/5 upgrades for Resolution.

Can anyone give me some insight on it at 5/5?

Last I heard, it was on par if not better than Torcleaver. At 3/5, I'm just past Spinning Slash.

Get appropriate belt/gorget because fTP bonus from both applies to all hits on this WS due to it's non 1.0 FTP on secondary hits.