Here is your "Playerbase"

[Zeroe]

Its screaming at you.

Listen to us very clearly,

We have had it.

Why make these forums if you don't listen to anything logical?

99 lvl WS < 60 lvl WS...

That's not right.

Fix this cesspool of disgusting updates,

WE WANT STRONGER WEAPONSKILLS!

Yes, I know,

"Balance."

Your balance is killing this game.

[Atomic_Skull]

If you hate the game that much then vote with your feet.

[cidbahamut]

If you hate the game that much then vote with your feet.

This happens eventually, but does precious little to actually solve specific problems.

Why shouldn't people make use of a line of communication before they walk out for good? Why should everyone skip straight to leaving without saying a word? That gets us nowhere.

[Dragonlord]

If you hate the game that much then vote with your feet.

We love the game. We dislike the devs sidestepping every good suggestion and continually nerfing things that don't need to be. These WS were mostly underperforming from the start, and they just keep making them weaker (except sam's of course)

Instead of talking about the great ideas (like byrth's JA delay reduction) they talk about something like casting while meleeing (an idea that shouldn't have wasted 1 second of dev time).

[Runespider]

It's like when they say a leopard can't change it's spots. The leadership got a big shock with 14 failing and they changed drastically, since that shock died down though it's getting back to business as usual. Back to ignoring the players and "we know best" attitude.

With VW people don't want the bodies given to us on a plater like in Aby or easy fights, make the fights harder if they want but add a points system or increase drop rates to a sensible amount (going 0/50++ is not sensible). With the new WS we don't want them to equal emp/relic etc but they should at least be as good or better than the current skill level learned ones, increase the number of merits to cap them if you want but make them worth the effort to obtain. The point is, if there are serious issues the entire playerbase have with these things try to at least attempt to compromise...not just ignore it and do it your way anyway.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Its screaming at you.

Listen to us very clearly,

We have had it.

Why make these forums if you don't listen to anything logical?

99 lvl WS < 60 lvl WS...

That's not right.

Fix this cesspool of disgusting updates,

WE WANT STRONGER WEAPONSKILLS!

Yes, I know,

"Balance."

Your balance is killing this game.

The thing is this balance of theirs SHOULD be for level 99 NOT level 75 like they are still doing.

As you get stronger so to do abilities, magic, armour/weapons and enemies. If they did not want this then they should not have raised the level cap.

[xbobx]

Best thing that could happen is the day subs start for ff14 everyone quits ff11, and we know many people will leave ff14, not worth paying for.

so.

now they have to answer to CEOs, presidents and shareholders because they will have lost about 50 million dollars a year in revenue stream. They will all be out of a job, then maybe they will clue into what they have done wrong.

[Zemarin]

I swear I think some ppl only play this game to complain about it, Weaponskills are like the most mundane part of the game.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I swear I think some ppl only play this game to complain about it, Weaponskills are like the most mundane part of the game.

Right okay then...

The "Welcome" on you is a bit dirty.

[xbobx]

I swear I think some ppl only play this game to complain about it, Weaponskills are like the most mundane part of the game.

Says the blm

[Xellith]

I think SE thinks that if they treat us bad with FFXI thinking that we will try out FFXIV. I don't know about you guys - but if they treat us like this with FFXI I feel that along the road we are gonna get the same treatment with FFXIV.

The Devs don't listen. They hear us - but they arn't listening.

[Dreamin]

I think SE thinks that if they treat us bad with FFXI thinking that we will try out FFXIV. I don't know about you guys - but if they treat us like this with FFXI I feel that along the road we are gonna get the same treatment with FFXIV.

The Devs don't listen. They hear us - but they arn't listening.

Yup, there's absolutely zero reason to believe that they will change their ways at all for 14. So why start another addiction when you know it's going to be another version of the same of 'we know best, just stfu and play the way we intended the game to be', 'sorry, didn't know there are any players complaining since we stuck our heads in the sand', etc. etc.

Definitely not going to be playing FF14 for sure. Nor will I even try it again until SE is willing to change their attitude towards the playerbase.

[svengalis]

Its screaming at you.

Listen to us very clearly,

We have had it.

Why make these forums if you don't listen to anything logical?

99 lvl WS < 60 lvl WS...

That's not right.

Fix this cesspool of disgusting updates,

WE WANT STRONGER WEAPONSKILLS!

Yes, I know,

"Balance."

Your balance is killing this game.

If they did this the only thing that would happen is that you would get Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic owners in here all crying about how free weaponskills > ultimate weapon's weaponskills then they will want a fix for that also.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

If they did this the only thing that would happen is that you would get Relic, Empyrean, and Mythic owners in here all crying about how free weaponskills > ultimate weapon's weaponskills then they will want a fix for that also.

Can make a stronger WS to trump normal ones but not relics. That said, the main bonus of them is Aftermath, these WS' will never have that.

[Luvbunny]

Best thing that could happen is the day subs start for ff14 everyone quits ff11, and we know many people will leave ff14, not worth paying for.

so.

now they have to answer to CEOs, presidents and shareholders because they will have lost about 50 million dollars a year in revenue stream. They will all be out of a job, then maybe they will clue into what they have done wrong.

Well, let's be nice to them and give them the greatest gift for Christmas, shall we? Hit that cancel subscription or don't add crysta for January. The numbers of people who cancel after lvl 99 updates should give them plenty to think about next year. Not to mention if no one is paying for 14 - or if the numbers is very low, they will have to do something. Expect some "nice adjustment" if hordes of people cancel their subscription.

[FrankReynolds]

Well, let's be nice to them and give them the greatest gift for Christmas, shall we? Hit that cancel subscription or don't add crysta for January. The numbers of people who cancel after lvl 99 updates should give them plenty to think about next year. Not to mention if no one is paying for 14 - or if the numbers is very low, they will have to do something. Expect some "nice adjustment" if hordes of people cancel their subscription.

LOL @ organizing a boycott on an official forum. That would be hilarious.

[Luvbunny]

LOL @ organizing a boycott on an official forum. That would be hilarious.

LOL not a boycott per se but advising people, if you fed up talking to a wall, the drop in financial statement will jolt them awake - look at FF14 - and the years after WoTG before Abyssea. They are feeling "invincible" right now and boastful, just deflate their ego and pride with a simple prick of ka-ching. You will see them do quick "adjustment" soon after - started with "after evaluating....blah blah, we decided to...".

[FrankReynolds]

LOL not a boycott per se but advising people, if you fed up talking to a wall, the drop in financial statement will jolt them awake - look at FF14 - and the years after WoTG before Abyssea. They are feeling "invincible" right now and boastful, just deflate their ego and pride with a simple prick of ka-ching. You will see them do quick "adjustment" soon after - started with "after evaluating....blah blah, we decided to...".


Unfortunately we are dealing with really dense people here. They would likely just merge some servers, and continue with business as usual.

[Luvbunny]

Unfortunately we are dealing with really dense people here. They would likely just merge some servers, and continue with business as usual.

Not as dense as you may think. FF14's big massive meltdown of a fail launch did not go unnoticed. It forced certain someone to stepped down, apologized and pretty much got a slap in the face publicly - the CEO had to written letter of apologize since it tainted the FF brand name. FF13's linearity and "straight line" dungeons also did not go unnoticed, hence the sequel addressed many of the issues of the original. And if you look at all the expansion released after the "highly lauded" CoP (simply for the fact that 3 years after released only 10% of player base have access to sea) - every expansion after CoP are "more accessible" and catered toward the casual players (let's say a juggernaut named WoW did something to this as well). With the rise of casual gamers from Wii, facebook, and mobile devices, SE will have to take into account on the shift in the gaming landscape. No doubt Abyssea probably was created in respond to this and so far has been extremely well received - except by those who wants "more hamster wheel grinds" and fight mobs that are "super hard" (have tons of HP and one shot you over and over).

[Chriscoffey]

Not as dense as you may think. FF14's big massive meltdown of a fail launch did not go unnoticed. It forced certain someone to stepped down, apologized and pretty much got a slap in the face publicly - the CEO had to written letter of apologize since it tainted the FF brand name. FF13's linearity and "straight line" dungeons also did not go unnoticed, hence the sequel addressed many of the issues of the original. And if you look at all the expansion released after the "highly lauded" CoP (simply for the fact that 3 years after released only 10% of player base have access to sea) - every expansion after CoP are "more accessible" and catered toward the casual players (let's say a juggernaut named WoW did something to this as well). With the rise of casual gamers from Wii, facebook, and mobile devices, SE will have to take into account on the shift in the gaming landscape. No doubt Abyssea probably was created in respond to this and so far has been extremely well received - except by those who wants "more hamster wheel grinds" and fight mobs that are "super hard" (have tons of HP and one shot you over and over).
You honestly have no fucking clue what you are even talking about when discussing end game. Your idea of 7+ years of playing something is zerging it down in 4 minutes so you can watch another episode of Jersey Shore apparently.

While that type of play can very well be kept I rather fight something that takes longer to kill myself with no zerg available and teamwork alliance fights "end game". There was way more teamwork involved before abyssea even after SE overpowered the jobs way past the HNM scene. They never added challenging fights and just allowed everything to be easier and easier. I have argued both type of playing can be maintained, however, your type of player base believes they are entitled to everything without the actual challenging factors involved.

I tried Wow out for a week because Ireek (Carbuncle) one of the developers swore it would blow me away with how the game was. That game to me was total fail to anything i was looking for. I guess what i am trying to get at with your type of game play is this concept. The idea that you need a strategy guide before you even play a game because it is too hard to comprehend the basics by yourself. The idea that there has to be cheat codes and "easy mode" so you can feel a sense of self accomplishment and entitlement to things others have taken time to understand better.

If you want FFXI to be what everyone wants why does it seem like every post made brings that entitlement that the game should cater around your "fun" but for someone who desire a bit more in depth end game mechanics we should be thrown out or forgotten about. Why does teamwork with 18 people scare the living shit out of the casual player base where you can't zerg it down in 1 minute or so? I said the game should be both and i agree its better for casual playing after abyssea and a good change. I just don't think this game should always center around that.

I have been buying Square games since FF1 on NES when it came out. I think i should have some damn say so as to what I like in a game and it sure as hell is not zerg mode on everything.

[Tohihroyu]

JPONRY! if the JP want Entropy to be Spirit Taker, then thats just how it is. We are not Japanese therefore we don't deserve anything "good" >_> its "their" game anyway should be "thankful" non Japanese can play this.

Why even ask for Non Japanese imput anyway? so they can laugh at all our "baka" fixes?

lol soon enough this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-fJCr2ZGdw) will happen again, on all servers

[Eric]

You honestly have no fucking clue what you are even talking about when discussing end game. Your idea of 7+ years of playing something is zerging it down in 4 minutes so you can watch another episode of Jersey Shore apparently.

While that type of play can very well be kept I rather fight something that takes longer to kill myself with no zerg available and teamwork alliance fights "end game". There was way more teamwork involved before abyssea even after SE overpowered the jobs way past the HNM scene. They never added challenging fights and just allowed everything to be easier and easier. I have argued both type of playing can be maintained, however, your type of player base believes they are entitled to everything without the actual challenging factors involved.

I tried Wow out for a week because Ireek (Carbuncle) one of the developers swore it would blow me away with how the game was. That game to me was total fail to anything i was looking for. I guess what i am trying to get at with your type of game play is this concept. The idea that you need a strategy guide before you even play a game because it is too hard to comprehend the basics by yourself. The idea that there has to be cheat codes and "easy mode" so you can feel a sense of self accomplishment and entitlement to things others have taken time to understand better.

If you want FFXI to be what everyone wants why does it seem like every post made brings that entitlement that the game should cater around your "fun" but for someone who desire a bit more in depth end game mechanics we should be thrown out or forgotten about. Why does teamwork with 18 people scare the living shit out of the casual player base where you can't zerg it down in 1 minute or so? I said the game should be both and i agree its better for casual playing after abyssea and a good change. I just don't think this game should always center around that.

I have been buying Square games since FF1 on NES when it came out. I think i should have some damn say so as to what I like in a game and it sure as hell is not zerg mode on everything.

Yes. I understand now. Making the final weapon skills stronger than their non-merit counterparts is obviously a cheat code for "easy mode".

[Runespider]

! if the JP want Entropy to be Spirit Taker, then thats just how it is. We are not Japanese therefore we don't deserve anything "good" >_> its "their" game anyway should be "thankful" non Japanese can play this.

Why even ask for Non Japanese imput anyway? so they can laugh at all our "baka" fixes?

lol soon enough this will happen again, on all servers

This isn't jponly, unless you think JP like this horrible crap. This is players worldwide unhappy with a devteam totally out of touch and ignoring the playerbase completely.

I don't know if this is simply incompetence again from a guy fired from the other game for doing exactly what he is doing to this game or if it's a strategy as posted above to make FFXIV sweeter. It's going to backfire and burn their faces off regardless.

[Meyi]

Why make these forums if you don't listen to anything logical?


Because around these parts there isn't much of this. :/

[Ritsuka]

Not as dense as you may think. FF14's big massive meltdown of a fail launch did not go unnoticed. It forced certain someone to stepped down, apologized and pretty much got a slap in the face publicly - the CEO had to written letter of apologize since it tainted the FF brand name. FF13's linearity and "straight line" dungeons also did not go unnoticed, hence the sequel addressed many of the issues of the original. And if you look at all the expansion released after the "highly lauded" CoP (simply for the fact that 3 years after released only 10% of player base have access to sea) - every expansion after CoP are "more accessible" and catered toward the casual players (let's say a juggernaut named WoW did something to this as well). With the rise of casual gamers from Wii, facebook, and mobile devices, SE will have to take into account on the shift in the gaming landscape. No doubt Abyssea probably was created in respond to this and so far has been extremely well received - except by those who wants "more hamster wheel grinds" and fight mobs that are "super hard" (have tons of HP and one shot you over and over).

This game has always been about super hard mobs Pandemonium Warden anyone ??? its the main reason why i keep playing it cuz it was hard and not a push over game you can scream through but they changed it into that and now look alot of great players left some friends and others not so friendly but i cant say they wasnt great players

[xbobx]

This game has always been about super hard mobs Pandemonium Warden anyone ??? its the main reason why i keep playing it cuz it was hard and not a push over game you can scream through but they changed it into that and now look alot of great players left some friends and others not so friendly but i cant say they wasnt great players

Super hard mobs? Actually mobs that were impossible to beat until SE looked like fools when this issue got the attention of the media.

[Meyi]

This game has always been about super hard mobs Pandemonium Warden anyone ??? its the main reason why i keep playing it cuz it was hard and not a push over game you can scream through but they changed it into that and now look alot of great players left some friends and others not so friendly but i cant say they wasnt great players

Super hard mobs? Actually mobs that were impossible to beat until SE looked like fools when this issue got the attention of the media.

I don't think Pandemonium Warden was supposed to be that difficult, I think the player base just didn't know how to properly take it down. Square Enix seemed surprised too when they realized people were taking so long to defeat certain monsters. Thus they gave us a "how to kill Absolute Virtue guide" and capped time on monsters...

A lot of people have left the game because it's an old game. They've beaten it, in a sense. They leveled all the jobs they wanted to the current max level, they completed all of the storylines, and they beat some of the hardest monsters in the game. Not really much left aside from the last 4 levels, some more Voidwatch, and maybe some potential new material if Square Enix chooses to create it.

But let's keep in mind the outside world as well. How many of us started playing this game as young teenagers and young adults? How many of us, after eight years, have moved onto college, jobs, and raising a family? There's a lot going on that affects the overall health of an MMO.

And besides, does it matter if we do lose some players? I personally like the elbow room and like being able to go farm Notorious Monsters without having fifteen other people latched onto my calves.

[Chriscoffey]

Yes. I understand now. Making the final weapon skills stronger than their non-merit counterparts is obviously a cheat code for "easy mode".
No, you apparently don't because at no point in that entire topic did i even mention the weapon skills. I was replying to the "player base" that always wants the easy way out. If i mentioned anything about weapon skills please correct me, however, I would imagine that involved reading it "in a bit more detail" which is something none seem capable of now hence why I'm tired of the "easy mode" philosophy logic.

This topic has been beat to death a million times on here. What I get pissed at is "casual " players going crazy that the more hardcore older players enjoy a bit of a challenge for true end game. What we get is some zerg crap because they don't come up with better ways to involve the alliances to work together. What we have is end game from VW being a few procs then zerging which is absolutely no fun to me in the least anymore. No one that is hardcore enjoys 18 hour fights from PW or AV but we expect more than consistent zerg marathons where any moron with enough cannon fodder can kill it.

If you are in the group we consider casual players then i salute you to enjoying the game. I even recommend SE cater some game play to your enjoyment. What I don't approve of is the selfish behavior that because my alliance or LS group can kill something they should nerf it down so much that you (because you don't intend to learn to play better with a team or alliance) can and without the "super hard" HNM enemies be added for my group.

I work everyday through the week and I don't have much time to play FFXI anymore but if I do get online to do end game i expect to be pushed to my limits not kill something in less time than it takes to make popcorn with my LS.

[Dawnn]

just posting in full support of this thread

gogogo!

[Tagrineth]

JPONRY! if the JP want Entropy to be Spirit Taker, then thats just how it is. We are not Japanese therefore we don't deserve anything "good" >_> its "their" game anyway should be "thankful" non Japanese can play this.

Why even ask for Non Japanese imput anyway? so they can laugh at all our "baka" fixes?

lol soon enough this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-fJCr2ZGdw) will happen again, on all servers

The JP hate Entropy just as much as we do.

[CrAZYVIC]

JPONRY! if the JP want Entropy to be Spirit Taker, then thats just how it is. We are not Japanese therefore we don't deserve anything "good" >_> its "their" game anyway should be "thankful" non Japanese can play this.

Why even ask for Non Japanese imput anyway? so they can laugh at all our "baka" fixes?

lol soon enough this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-fJCr2ZGdw) will happen again, on all servers

Seriously after 10 years the people dont know how play the JP people?

Here is my personal exp and the time shared with Jp friends.

If you go a Abbysea party with Full Jp guys.

You will be asked for sub /nin if you are a dd. Yes War, Sam, DRK, they want you sub ninja.

If you are a thief/ Ninja / Monk / Puppet they dont see you as DD, they want you Sub dancer for help with the heals

"Kill too fast" Yes your read that good or take much damage is taked as a seriously insult for they.

The 95% of Jp players dont care about parse or damage. They only care about cooperation and teamwork.

So if you go a JP einherjar run. You will notice see all the DDS/Ninja Light DDS/DNC, a lot of bards/whm, cor/whm.

If you are doing a Event with them. They expect you be talk often, if you just want shut up and bash shit, this will be taked as a insult you not are enjoying with they.

They do no think like US. They think in a way more "Fantasy" More DRK use Mp!, Sam tank!, Monk is a light dd will be assist heals!, respect your party do not 1 shoting shit with ukovansara plz ^_^. Oh yeah and more. lol im not surprised they actualy asked for something like this

I SWEAR i saw in WoE spawmeage Drks/whm, drk/rdm, drk/sch jp GUYs casting nukes on WoE Hyper bosses.

[saevel]

I don't think Pandemonium Warden was supposed to be that difficult, I think the player base just didn't know how to properly take it down. Square Enix seemed surprised too when they realized people were taking so long to defeat certain monsters. Thus they gave us a "how to kill Absolute Virtue guide" and capped time on monsters...

A lot of people have left the game because it's an old game. They've beaten it, in a sense. They leveled all the jobs they wanted to the current max level, they completed all of the storylines, and they beat some of the hardest monsters in the game. Not really much left aside from the last 4 levels, some more Voidwatch, and maybe some potential new material if Square Enix chooses to create it.

But let's keep in mind the outside world as well. How many of us started playing this game as young teenagers and young adults? How many of us, after eight years, have moved onto college, jobs, and raising a family? There's a lot going on that affects the overall health of an MMO.

And besides, does it matter if we do lose some players? I personally like the elbow room and like being able to go farm Notorious Monsters without having fifteen other people latched onto my calves.


Umm no, neither of those NM's were designed to ever be defeated. They were SE's sick idea of a time sink for players to do.

I remember when the very first AV was killed and it was discovered it had absolutely no loot pool, not even a title. There was no way to lock it's 2hr's, it just spammed them whenever it wanted and as many times as it wanted. Infinite Benediction and Chainspell Meteor II. When that epic long (was it 18hr) PW fight happened, the players could easily damage him. He just kept cycling forms over and over and over again. Kill him four, five, six times, it didn't matter, he had an infinite HP bar basically because it would just refill after each "death".

After we figured out AV had no drop list and was unbeatable unless you abused the AI and a null space location on the map we stopped caring about him. So SE came in and inserted a drop pool and gave that little video. People tried the whole "lock" his 2hrs and it didn't work, he still had infinite benediction / chainspell Meteor II. Then players figured out DRK zerging him with a dozen+ zerglings, so we killed it. But then SE stepped in and stopped that tactic cold. After that we stopped caring. Eventually the media attention from those people getting sick on the 18hr PW fight, when PW would just keep cycling forms forced SE to make their pet NM's actually kill-able. The inserted that 2hr period and suddenly you could lock AV's 2hr abilities and PW would only cycle through his forms once. Still the fights were ridiculously hard. On AV you only had seconds to use benediction after he refilled his HP, and it wasn't guaranteed that it would lock it. If your two to three WHM's failed to lock it then you either wiped or rushed people out to change to WHM to try again. Same with Chainspell. PW required that you have people /logout and use a bunch of zombie BLU's to bring his final form down. Otherwise his 2HR would just keep going off until everyone was dead.

[Rampage]

I was really happy when they raised the level cap and abyssea came out. It made me come bAck to the game. I have always liked this game because when you earned a particular item through hard work it paid off, and you do need to coordinate and work well with other players but lets be serious ffxi has nothing on other mmorpgs in terms of battle strategy.
Most HNM pre abyssea were killed by gimiks like zerg, or lets get it stuck in this little corner ' otherwise it was "lets stay alive and see if we can kill before it refills all its health etc."

Compare it with WoW stuff where endgame you had 25 people coordinating an assault, jumping over flames at the same time, 25 peeps get out of AoE at the same time then get back on, run out of the thing on the floor thats going to kill u etc.

THAT is. COordination. VW fights etc where the "coordination" is stay out of AoE untill procs then get on and kill . . . Not so much. I would be happy if TP on HNM dissapeared and they just gave them timed abilities. So melees could actually . . . Melee, and time SCs. I know its a crazy concept.

Also post abyssea the game recieved a friendly boost. Have we forgotten that before it would take us 2-3 days to raise 1 level, unless you spent something like 6 hours straight leveling on the game. Thats ridiculous. And thats IF you get a party. As DRK i can remember the hours I spent with flag up in jeuno /searching every area to see if any party would take me.

So getting back to the main point in the thread, should players be super powerfull and have awesome new WSs . . Hell yeah. Do we want super easy bosses, hell no. But make them hard in interesting ways, dont just make it impossible to kill.

There lots of ways already in the game to make bosses challenging. Have Phy damage phases / magic damage phases,but take away NM tp gain during phy dmg phase so melee can actually melee. Have triggers do essential things during boss fights like lock a particularly deadly TPmove or ability. Make it so you can Only trigger at certain times so that it takes timing. Have arcana HNM have a special trigger for DRK abilities, a dragon NM have a super weakness trigger to a DRG ability, undead with PLD etc. so when you go to kill a dragon mob and you think, "which DD should i bring" DRG should be a no brainer.

Have SCs trigger and lock elemental magic on the boss corresponding to the SC element or something.
But makeit so that if you are skilled enough and coordinated enough to trigger efectively you can beat the boss. But not all triggers are essential, so nobody has to stay off the mob for 10 minutes while you proc.

I think some of the CoP fights where u had to use items etc. to make NMs weaker were kind of precursors to this. But please this time around lets keep the frustration levels down. I dont mind getting killed 10 times on a HNM if my group is getting it wrong. But dont make us go through 2 hours of dungeon just to die and have to do it all over again. Promivions im looking at you.
Dungeon crawling events would have great potentiAl for stuff like this.

[xbobx]

No, you apparently don't because at no point in that entire topic did i even mention the weapon skills. I was replying to the "player base" that always wants the easy way out. If i mentioned anything about weapon skills please correct me, however, I would imagine that involved reading it "in a bit more detail" which is something none seem capable of now hence why I'm tired of the "easy mode" philosophy logic.

This topic has been beat to death a million times on here. What I get pissed at is "casual " players going crazy that the more hardcore older players enjoy a bit of a challenge for true end game. What we get is some zerg crap because they don't come up with better ways to involve the alliances to work together. What we have is end game from VW being a few procs then zerging which is absolutely no fun to me in the least anymore. No one that is hardcore enjoys 18 hour fights from PW or AV but we expect more than consistent zerg marathons where any moron with enough cannon fodder can kill it.

If you are in the group we consider casual players then i salute you to enjoying the game. I even recommend SE cater some game play to your enjoyment. What I don't approve of is the selfish behavior that because my alliance or LS group can kill something they should nerf it down so much that you (because you don't intend to learn to play better with a team or alliance) can and without the "super hard" HNM enemies be added for my group.

I work everyday through the week and I don't have much time to play FFXI anymore but if I do get online to do end game i expect to be pushed to my limits not kill something in less time than it takes to make popcorn with my LS.

I mentioned this before, but people like you are hypocrites. You go on and on about not wanted easy mode, yet you will only hunt with specific jobs to make the fight as easy as possible. So how can you complain about easy mode when every elitist I have ever seen in the game constantly looks for the easiest way to beat a NM.

[Chriscoffey]

I mentioned this before, but people like you are hypocrites. You go on and on about not wanted easy mode, yet you will only hunt with specific jobs to make the fight as easy as possible. So how can you complain about easy mode when every elitist I have ever seen in the game constantly looks for the easiest way to beat a NM.
I am trying to understand how you can even come across that I'm a hypocrite. The example i always make of your type of players are the ones that were still taking 30 minutes to an hour to beat Fafnir when any good end game LS i was in did it in mere minutes. Your group uses people as cannon fodder to beat something then complain it's too hard knowing full well others are doing the enemies just fine.

You expect entitlement to everything even things of which you apparently lack the ability to try to understand better to kill. So what you have so far is calling me a hypocrite because my group will try to find the best approach to a mob to kill compared to your group saying all things should be just zerged down. I think the hypocrite is your groups logic.



Compare it with WoW stuff where endgame you had 25 people coordinating an assault, jumping over flames at the same time, 25 peeps get out of AoE at the same time then get back on, run out of the thing on the floor thats going to kill u etc.
I won't go out and say everyone that plays Wow did this but in my experience with end game Wow people they couldn't work together on FFXI. They bitched the most about experience loss, running places, etc. They never could work their jobs dynamic well in alliance fights. I can't really compare because i started Wow when it was in it's hard stage because of Ireek and that game was just way to easy to me after being on FF hard days. FF has changed so much I can't even begin to compare end game now to what it was like before. This gimmick fight technique was more chipping a mobs HP away. I wish they would have an anniversary type event on the test server and make it where its exactly like it was in different years: 03, 04, 05, 06, etc. I could see if people still think the game was just as easy as now since they believe themselves to be that much better.

[Chriscoffey]

I was really happy when they raised the level cap and abyssea came out. It made me come bAck to the game. I have always liked this game because when you earned a particular item through hard work it paid off, and you do need to coordinate and work well with other players but lets be serious ffxi has nothing on other mmorpgs in terms of battle strategy.
Most HNM pre abyssea were killed by gimiks like zerg, or lets get it stuck in this little corner ' otherwise it was "lets stay alive and see if we can kill before it refills all its health etc."

Compare it with WoW stuff where endgame you had 25 people coordinating an assault, jumping over flames at the same time, 25 peeps get out of AoE at the same time then get back on, run out of the thing on the floor thats going to kill u etc.

THAT is. COordination. VW fights etc where the "coordination" is stay out of AoE untill procs then get on and kill . . . Not so much. I would be happy if TP on HNM dissapeared and they just gave them timed abilities. So melees could actually . . . Melee, and time SCs. I know its a crazy concept.

Also post abyssea the game recieved a friendly boost. Have we forgotten that before it would take us 2-3 days to raise 1 level, unless you spent something like 6 hours straight leveling on the game. Thats ridiculous. And thats IF you get a party. As DRK i can remember the hours I spent with flag up in jeuno /searching every area to see if any party would take me.

So getting back to the main point in the thread, should players be super powerfull and have awesome new WSs . . Hell yeah. Do we want super easy bosses, hell no. But make them hard in interesting ways, dont just make it impossible to kill.

There lots of ways already in the game to make bosses challenging. Have Phy damage phases / magic damage phases,but take away NM tp gain during phy dmg phase so melee can actually melee. Have triggers do essential things during boss fights like lock a particularly deadly TPmove or ability. Make it so you can Only trigger at certain times so that it takes timing. Have arcana HNM have a special trigger for DRK abilities, a dragon NM have a super weakness trigger to a DRG ability, undead with PLD etc. so when you go to kill a dragon mob and you think, "which DD should i bring" DRG should be a no brainer.

Have SCs trigger and lock elemental magic on the boss corresponding to the SC element or something.
But makeit so that if you are skilled enough and coordinated enough to trigger efectively you can beat the boss. But not all triggers are essential, so nobody has to stay off the mob for 10 minutes while you proc.

I think some of the CoP fights where u had to use items etc. to make NMs weaker were kind of precursors to this. But please this time around lets keep the frustration levels down. I dont mind getting killed 10 times on a HNM if my group is getting it wrong. But dont make us go through 2 hours of dungeon just to die and have to do it all over again. Promivions im looking at you.
Dungeon crawling events would have great potentiAl for stuff like this.
I have been saying that for awhile but it falls on def ears to the point "WE LOVE ZERG" people who don't want to change because their parse is effected.

[Mirabelle]

I mentioned this before, but people like you are hypocrites. You go on and on about not wanted easy mode, yet you will only hunt with specific jobs to make the fight as easy as possible. So how can you complain about easy mode when every elitist I have ever seen in the game constantly looks for the easiest way to beat a NM.

This so much!!! All the elitists go into every fight with elite gear, best atmas and abyssites, top weapons, elite "blue box onry" party members, then decry how easy things are to beat.
I've had plenty of challenge in this game largely based on not really caring if I had the best gear or not or if my party members were the best in the game. Basically relied on using sound strategy and team work to get victories. Its made for some fun and challenging fights over the years. And as for Abyssea, yes it got easier as you advanced with gear and atma. But it wasn't easy at the start. It tooks months of slogging to develop a well geared/atma'd job, let alone several jobs. I see nothing wrong with that approach. Its far more rewarding than the endless time sink of VWNM with no quests or stories or variety of activities that Abyssea offered.

As for the original OP, yes the new merited WS should beat level 60 WS when fulled merited. Several do, but they all should in reality. Save the other WS for proc use only. Every job should have a high powered magical WS, a high powered physical WS and a decent enfeebling WS to be used as its major WS core. Presumably those WS should come from newer WS. And relic, empyrean and mythic WS should all either be better or at least on par with significant benefits of use (aftermath, hidden effects, etc).
Why SE needs to make things so complex with adding useless things all the time, I'll never understand. This game is far too full of bloat these days.

[Riaurio]

This


You honestly have no fucking clue what you are even talking about when discussing end game. Your idea of 7+ years of playing something is zerging it down in 4 minutes so you can watch another episode of Jersey Shore apparently. .

+


I am trying to understand how you can even come across that I'm a hypocrite. The example i always make of your type of players are the ones that were still taking 30 minutes to an hour to beat Fafnir when any good end game LS i was in did it in mere minutes.

=


I mentioned this before, but people like you are hypocrites.


Btw The whole "old endgame stuff was better becuase it took teamwork to do" is BS, i was there it was simple and easy with the exception of PW and AV which im doubting you are talking about since you mentioned lolfafnir, maybe you are referring to lolgenbu ?

Endgame content has always been (insert number) of (insert jobs) to kill (insert Nm), there was no teamwork it was a chore as most people had to play jobs they did not like in order to get credit/points to lot the gear they wanted when it was eventually their turn(sometimes months/years).

[xbobx]

What I am saying Chriscoffey is, it is the elitist are the ones that did the throw All sams at it, or blms or rngs, whatever the job of the day was at that time. They ignored the drgs, the pups, the blus etc, because they didn't want to try ant beat it with a balanced party, they wanted to make the fight easy.

[Aldersyde]

I am trying to understand how you can even come across that I'm a hypocrite. The example i always make of your type of players are the ones that were still taking 30 minutes to an hour to beat Fafnir when any good end game LS i was in did it in mere minutes. Your group uses people as cannon fodder to beat something then complain it's too hard knowing full well others are doing the enemies just fine.

You expect entitlement to everything even things of which you apparently lack the ability to try to understand better to kill. So what you have so far is calling me a hypocrite because my group will try to find the best approach to a mob to kill compared to your group saying all things should be just zerged down. I think the hypocrite is your groups logic.

You know why your ls could down nms in minutes while it took others 30? Experience. Preparation. Preparation in gear, research, strategy, making that strategy happen by bringing the proper jobs in proper amounts. You know, looking for the easiest, most efficient, hassle-free way to kill mobs and get loot.

Unless you started the game very recently, everyone started by throwing bodies at things because there was a time when people didn't understand the game's mechanics and had absolute trash gear. I remember when nms were taken down with an aerial armor rotation for the tank. I remember when accepting a wipe from kirin's astral flow was pretty standard. But tactics change. Gear gets better. Now people zerg Kirin in 2 minutes or less. That's not people shouting for easier mobs, that's people getting better at the game and actually progressing so that their characters are stronger.

Your ls wasn't blessed by some MMORPG god that allowed you to exceed the power of mere scrubs. Your group worked towards that point by getting better gear, putting effort into leveling proper jobs and merits, and doing research. You (and everyone really) were standing on the backs of people who came before. Yes, you looked for the easiest way to do to it, like most everyone else did. I think the real hypocritical part comes when 'leet groups look down on the 'scrubs' taking 30 minutes to kill a mob, when there was a time your group was likely at the same stage of starting out.

[Rampage]

Im sorry but zerging a mob down or just trying to survive while a mobs hp goes down isnt strategy. Even if it is hard.

Most mobs in FFXI dont require strategy, but that doesnt mean it has to stay that way. For players to create strategy you have to place obstacles that they can clear in different ways. How the players decide to clear those obstacles is what is strategy.

But guess what, if the best way for your players to overcome the obstacle you put in their path is to put DoTs on the mob and run around for 45 minutes, to try and "One shot" zerg it in 1 minute or die, or try and get the mob stuck or exploit some other glitchy phenomenon in the game then obviously you are not creating a challenging and fun dynamic.

thats why I say have triggers for weaknesses that are only useful if players are coordinating well.

2 person SC trigger >> debuff mob 1 min duration: "no AoE tp moves" (If your melees are good and they can keep trigger happening they can stay on the mob)
Magic Burst trigger >> debuff mob 1 min duration "Magic Burst damage increased by 40%" (again mages have to coordinate with melees, if they can keep MBs happening they keep their bonus)
3 person sc trigger >> debuff mob 1 in duration "Lv 3 Skillchain Damage increased 25%"
Magic Burst on a 3 person SC >> debuff mob 1 min duration "MB damage increased 60%"

all of these buffs arent worth anything if people cant keep the coordination up, but if they can it makes taking down a mob that much easier.

And have specific triggers at "narrow" windows drastically alter NM behavior in some way.

Any of these things promote coordination and teamwork. The better organized you are the easier the mob is. Obviously you can get really complex and maybe need one team in case the trigger is a darkness SC or a light SC etc. Or have some mobs only lock certain AoE moves etc.

Think FFXIII where you had to "stagger" a mob to get a window of doing good damage, VW and synchronic blitz is a step in the right direction. But it should be more complex than just a lucky stagger.

[Meyi]

Umm no, neither of those NM's were designed to ever be defeated. They were SE's sick idea of a time sink for players to do.

I remember when the very first AV was killed and it was discovered it had absolutely no loot pool, not even a title. There was no way to lock it's 2hr's, it just spammed them whenever it wanted and as many times as it wanted. Infinite Benediction and Chainspell Meteor II. When that epic long (was it 18hr) PW fight happened, the players could easily damage him. He just kept cycling forms over and over and over again. Kill him four, five, six times, it didn't matter, he had an infinite HP bar basically because it would just refill after each "death".

After we figured out AV had no drop list and was unbeatable unless you abused the AI and a null space location on the map we stopped caring about him. So SE came in and inserted a drop pool and gave that little video. People tried the whole "lock" his 2hrs and it didn't work, he still had infinite benediction / chainspell Meteor II. Then players figured out DRK zerging him with a dozen+ zerglings, so we killed it. But then SE stepped in and stopped that tactic cold. After that we stopped caring. Eventually the media attention from those people getting sick on the 18hr PW fight, when PW would just keep cycling forms forced SE to make their pet NM's actually kill-able. The inserted that 2hr period and suddenly you could lock AV's 2hr abilities and PW would only cycle through his forms once. Still the fights were ridiculously hard. On AV you only had seconds to use benediction after he refilled his HP, and it wasn't guaranteed that it would lock it. If your two to three WHM's failed to lock it then you either wiped or rushed people out to change to WHM to try again. Same with Chainspell. PW required that you have people /logout and use a bunch of zombie BLU's to bring his final form down. Otherwise his 2HR would just keep going off until everyone was dead.

I see, I didn't know this. Thank you for educating me.^^


This so much!!! All the elitists go into every fight with elite gear, best atmas and abyssites, top weapons, elite "blue box onry" party members, then decry how easy things are to beat.
I've had plenty of challenge in this game largely based on not really caring if I had the best gear or not or if my party members were the best in the game. Basically relied on using sound strategy and team work to get victories. Its made for some fun and challenging fights over the years. And as for Abyssea, yes it got easier as you advanced with gear and atma. But it wasn't easy at the start. It tooks months of slogging to develop a well geared/atma'd job, let alone several jobs. I see nothing wrong with that approach. Its far more rewarding than the endless time sink of VWNM with no quests or stories or variety of activities that Abyssea offered.

To be fair we shouldn't have to gimp ourselves to have a challenge in this game.

[TRiPP]

tactics
plural of tac·tic (Noun)
Noun:
An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.
The art of disposing armed forces in order of battle and of organizing operations, esp. during contact with an enemy.

Discuss.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

To be fair we shouldn't have to gimp ourselves to have a challenge in this game.

On the other hand, why must "gimp" mean "not entirely min-maxed?"

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

An action or strategy carefully planned to achieve a specific end.

THROW MOAR SAMURAIS AT IT!!!111!!

[Chriscoffey]

Your ls wasn't blessed by some MMORPG god that allowed you to exceed the power of mere scrubs. Your group worked towards that point by getting better gear, putting effort into leveling proper jobs and merits, and doing research. You (and everyone really) were standing on the backs of people who came before. Yes, you looked for the easiest way to do to it, like most everyone else did. I think the real hypocritical part comes when 'leet groups look down on the 'scrubs' taking 30 minutes to kill a mob, when there was a time your group was likely at the same stage of starting out.
I am not trying to say that my LS was blessed or that those people were stupid. The first time I killed fafnir we took around 40 minutes to kill, however, this was way before the 2 handed update and things were different. If you try to say it's the same or was as easy then you are full blown crazy. We were doing AA rotations on the paladin and obviously what other LS were doing because pld/nin enimity was shit for VE/CE to hold hate. SE apparently updated it at some point and adjusted it better to make /nin a better choice when tanking. I know several people who used /nin on pld at first and their hate with all their tools did little for help when someone was cure IV. This has apparently been changed by the amount of tools/abilities/adjustments/etc.

I think most of you should do a bit of reading about what exactly being a hypocrite means. Those same people who were taking 30 minutes to kill when my LS was taking mere minutes couldn't kill it when my LS were killing in the same amount of time simply being everyone got adjusted abilities/traits/etc. When elite(as you call my player type) move on to bigger and better HNM and reach a stagnated point what is the point in playing anymore. Why should i log in everyday to do things to enjoy the game if there is nothing left that challenges me and my LS?. That is what happened with most i knew they left because the game got so easy there was nothing to do that was hard.

I suggest they add "some" mobs that challenge my type of player base and you all go off on us like we are snobs and looking down on the rest of you. If casual players want the entire game centered around them only then that is hypocritical and selfish IMO. We just want a few challenges for us with everything we have learned else there is nothing left to do. I enjoy the game but not when the only way i can get a challenge now is to go naked and blindfold myself to fight something.

[FrankReynolds]

To be fair we shouldn't have to gimp ourselves to have a challenge in this game.

So how exactly do they make content that is a challenge to people who have completely deconstructed every mechanic in the game, and then gone out and gotten all the best gear / jobs to beat the content, without completely breaking it for everyone else?

[Meyi]

So how exactly do they make content that is a challenge to people who have completely deconstructed every mechanic in the game, and then gone out and gotten all the best gear / jobs to beat the content, without completely breaking it for everyone else?

No idea, I'm not one of those people. I just know they exist and they deserve to have fun in this game too. I'd imagine it'd have to be some kind of monster that changed its game plan once its weaknesses were discovered.

[saevel]

No idea, I'm not one of those people. I just know they exist and they deserve to have fun in this game too. I'd imagine it'd have to be some kind of monster that changed its game plan once its weaknesses were discovered.

Munchkins (the proper term for people who over-emphasis min-maxing as a replacement for fun) are impossible to defeat without breaking the rules and dropping bridges, dryers or just hitting them with bolts of lightening.

In the context of a MMORPG the only way to defeat them is to create a scenario where their ultra math crunching and number's manipulation skills aren't of much use. This requires thinking and forethought from content creators, you can't just give a NM 2 million HP because the munchkins will just elevate themselves to defeat it using brute force, or if they fail in doing that then the content is impossible for anyone not a munchkin. Instead you must give boss monsters times weakness's and complex battle design mechanics. Using SC's to lock out specific moves would be a good start. Using timed periods where the NM shifts its weakness over the course of the fight and your required to hit it with WS's aligned with it's weakness to bring it down. Another example would be a NM that has -90% DT, hitting it with a SC break's it's weakness for a period of 10~20s after which it'll change it's SC weakness again. Have a NM that periodically use's mega OMG wipe type moves that it announces through text messages. Upon seeing that announcement you must hit it with a certain amount of damage from a specific element to prevent it from wiping everyone.

All sorts of things are possible if they would just put time into it. But with their skeleton staff they can't do any of this. All their members have been moved to FFXIV, nothing's left to maintain FFXI.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

All sorts of things are possible if they would just put time into it.

You're forgetting another problem with this idea: the time and effort required for the playerbase to figure this out through trial and error. There may have been some complicated yet elegant method for taking down AV before level caps increased, but it couldn't be found even with the "helpful" video the devs posted.

If you put your elegant system too far away from the path of least resistance, the playerbase would sooner dynamite their way through the mountain first.

[SpankWustler]

So how exactly do they make content that is a challenge to people who have completely deconstructed every mechanic in the game, and then gone out and gotten all the best gear / jobs to beat the content, without completely breaking it for everyone else?

The "Reverse-Phalanx" effect possessed by the pickle-hating Tarutaru who is fought in the final limit break seems like a pretty ingenious equalizer. I'd fly to Japan using only my furious, flapping arms and poop on somebody's desk if every big monster had such a trait, but stuff like that is great for some monsters.

Basically, anything that makes horizontal improvement more desirable than vertical improvement for a specific fight helps to even things out between above-average and near-perfect players. It's a lot easier to grab a decent -Damage Taken% set or make a half-way decent set for several viable weaponskills for changing situations than to be the very best at smashing all that stands before you to atoms.

[saevel]

You're forgetting another problem with this idea: the time and effort required for the playerbase to figure this out through trial and error. There may have been some complicated yet elegant method for taking down AV before level caps increased, but it couldn't be found even with the "helpful" video the devs posted.

If you put your elegant system too far away from the path of least resistance, the playerbase would sooner dynamite their way through the mountain first.

No there was no "complicated yet elegant" method, AV was just designed to be unkillable. He didn't even have a drop pool or title, think on that before you comment again on AV. He was designed with the sole purpose to be the invincible brick wall that "high end" players would spend all their time trying to beat. It's a game mechanic for giving Munchkins something to do. It's also considered highly unethical.

SE just needs to do what EVERY OTHER MMO does and provide hints NPC dialog and monster feedback. We largely ignore NPC text in this game. Have a guy in the Tenshodo mention how "such and such NM is vulnerable to blah blah". .dat mining will discover it and soon enough people will figure out the system. SE spends too much effort hiding their poor work from the player base.