What is this "game balance" you speak of?

[Hayward]

We've heard the excuses from developers about why jobs that need fixes don't get them. Paladins can't have decent damage potential for maintaining hate because it would upset the "game balance" (thank a self-interested melee for covering the devs on this one). Red Mages can't have even halfway-decent damage potential because of "game balance" (thank a "Pink Mage" for covering the devs on this one). No job can have new Weapon Skills that do meaningful damage because of "game balance" (thank insecure Empyrean weapon owners for covering the devs on this one).

It is getting a bit unnerving hearing these developers crying "wolf" ("game balance" in this case) whenever we ask for some changes to jobs that need them. It is getting equally unnerving seeing certain posters backing them up simply to maintain some invented sense of superiority.

[Juri_Licious]

I'm starting to think SE Devs actually do play the game but, only jobs like WHM, WAR, BLU & BLM. Maybe that's why they get all the attention?

One thing else to mention is, why is Square Enix so afraid to buff certain classes that need it?
If for some magical reason they become overpowered, they can always patch a nerf later.

They don't need to be afraid to risk failure with jobs. (Not including the failure they've been doing with certain jobs)

[Vold]

Personally I'm surprised they aren't making the weapon skills in line with others or better. Would certainly shut some people up about Empyreans when their relic is at least #1 with stats. So what if everyone could do the same #1 WS. I don't think anyone ever did a Excalibur for it's WS strength.

I know what I said before about this subject but whatever. Just let the weapon stats matter rather than the stats AND weapon skill. Damn, it's merited weapon skills. Just do it. One of them is already more powerful than the rest of their kind. And they take a trillion merits to cap. Just DO IT. Make them powerful. And solve the "relic/mythic crisis" over night. Here's your chance. It's never going to happen without their weapon skills matching Empyreans. ALL of them. So just do it already and move on.

[Laxedrane]

I can understand them not wanting them to be as strong as empyreon or the stronger nyzul weaponskills. However have they seriously not stop to think what they are asking from us? We can only choose 3 if we want the maximun damage and we have to dump 100 merits into each one. Yet they are balancing it against skills we get at level 65-70 that we simply get for being at that skill level? Really?

They need to make a choice here. If their decision is to balance them on with the common mans best weaponskills then they should not be involved in the merit system at all. Becuase, What are we merited them for? So I can have a more consistent hexa strike with the same animation but the final hit? However in the end hexa has the potential to do more damage becuase of the critical hit aspect of the weaponskill? So I am dumping 100 merits into this weaponskill, changing all my current gear for what exactly?

Hell club doesn't even get a special effect. H2H got plague, Polearm got critical evasion down, even though it's square excuse for keeping that skill mostly worthless sword got ignores defense. Club got nothing. At first I thought it was square saying fuck you to white mage melee as per usual. However I got on the test server and was like holy balls the damage, then thought, "Oh, they just made it a really strong weaponskill no special effect needed." Now they are nerfing it down to hexa strike level.

If your gonna keep going down this road square just take the merit part of the equation out. Because it would be unbalanced for you to ask us to do all this much for weaponskills that are meant to compete for ones we only get for being that skill level.

[Luvbunny]

There is no such thing as "game balance" - it's their sad poor excuse to do half ass job and then maybe, just maybe, in later dates to "correct" them to count as "content update". But look at it on the bright side - now everyone can quit and come back in 6 months or more and nothing much will change since with Tanaka leading the team (again) - you can expect no progress for years. Save your money - play other games - don't bother buying SE products - they certainly do not care what we think, and continue releasing inferior crap products and "content updates" that is utter garbage.

[Xellith]

There is no such thing as "game balance" - it's their sad poor excuse to do half ass job and then maybe, just maybe, in later dates to "correct" them to count as "content update". But look at it on the bright side - now everyone can quit and come back in 6 months or more and nothing much will change since with Tanaka leading the team (again) - you can expect no progress for years. Save your money - play other games - don't bother buying SE products - they certainly do not care what we think, and continue releasing inferior crap products and "content updates" that is utter garbage.

Gonna try EVE Online when my subscription runs out. Can you suggest anything else to try? That or I might just go "outside".

[Nightfyre]

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/e4802d2ea22c731efa9c152e5d11f9c6.png

Ask this guy, he seems to know a lot about the topic.

[Urteil]

http://images.bluegartr.com/bucket/gallery/e4802d2ea22c731efa9c152e5d11f9c6.png

Ask this guy, he seems to know a lot about the topic.

I wish he'd go join the team for Hello Kitty Online.

[Scribble]

I hate threads like this.

Anyway, it doesn't make any sense to try and balance the game yet. Bear in mind that we just gained 25 levels in about a year and a half after being at 75 for years; a level that most of the game's mechanics are based around. Since we'd been getting level increases about every 4 months it was pointless to try and balance the game.

Think of it this way:

Lets say you ate way too many rolanberry pies so you're trying to lose some weight for the summer. You start a training regimen and the pounds are flying off. Now, you don't go to the store every week and get a new pair of jeans knowing that they won't fit you the next week do you? What do you do? You get a belt and hold up what you have for now until your weight stabilizes.

Same concept here. Give all the changes a little time to settle in. We got a test server and I'm sure they'll continue to use it to balance the game in the future.

[Zemarin]

Balance....

Make a WS that's Strong Like *insert 60 weaponskill* and closes Darkness like *insert weak lvl 70-75 WS* but doesn't out do *insert emp weaponskill* and has a special effects like *insert lvl 80~ WS*

[Atomic_Skull]

I know what I said before about this subject but whatever. Just let the weapon stats matter rather than the stats AND weapon skill. Damn, it's merited weapon skills. Just do it. One of them is already more powerful than the rest of their kind. And they take a trillion merits to cap. Just DO IT. Make them powerful. And solve the "relic/mythic crisis" over night. Here's your chance. It's never going to happen without their weapon skills matching Empyreans. ALL of them. So just do it already and move on.

Have to use Emp/relic/mythic Ws to get Afterglow and ODD/OAT.

[Atomic_Skull]

Gonna try EVE Online when my subscription runs out. Can you suggest anything else to try? That or I might just go "outside".

Hope you like griefing because EVE has literally no rules other than "don't use exploits or hacks". Anything else is allowed. CCP does not interfere with player behavior in the game in any way.

[Xellith]

Hope you like griefing because EVE has literally no rules other than "don't use exploits or hacks". Anything else is allowed. CCP does not interfere with player behavior in the game in any way.

I prefer that to SE where there are one set of rules for one group and one set of rules for another.

[Luvbunny]

Gonna try EVE Online when my subscription runs out. Can you suggest anything else to try? That or I might just go "outside".

Perhaps going outside and play the game of "real life" is not a bad idea :) You can't cast magic and no one is going to help you with "balance" when things don't quite work out - it's rather hardcore challenge I would say, more difficult than AV or Pandemonium Warden. Or you can just play other console games - there are tons of amazing ones released this holiday season. Use your money for something else, and wait for another updates or two that will "balance" this game. The future of FFXI is becoming the grindfest of yesteryear and hamster wheel activities - for some reasons this all they can come up with, knowing that they have a new team leader.

[Luvbunny]

I wish he'd go join the team for Hello Kitty Online.

OMG let this be true please - that would be the best Christmas gift ever for the entire community. I think Hello Kitty online needs some challenge and not enough kitty wheel grind activities, not to mention that game seriously could use a few nerf bombs right and left.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

OMG let this be true please - that would be the best Christmas gift ever for the entire community. I think Hello Kitty online needs some challenge and not enough kitty wheel grind activities, not to mention that game seriously could use a few nerf bombs right and left.I think I still have a free copy of that from pax 2 years ago laying around.

[Sonshou]

Balance...... I presume they are not talking about the balance between individual characters, or the 20 playable jobs avaliable.

I think it is the balance between the players and the developers. so that the players will keep on NEEDing the dev team, and therefore they will never run out of job that pay them.

Remind me of that joke, a Doctor's son went to medical school and finally become a doctor. After curing the first patient, he is so proud and tell his father "I finally cure the patient that you couldn't cure for 20 years." And the father says calmly, "Son, he has been paying your school fees from primary school to medical school."

[Concerned4FFxi]

I'll be the first to admit I was very vocal about the new ws being as powerful as empyrean ws, which I stand by my statement that it was total bs to have them as powerful. However, making them useless is even worse. I was hoping Mythic, Empyrean, and Relic would get a boost in damage so that the new ws would still be worth getting, not threaten owners of mythic, relic, empyrean, and not be the sick joke that the other quested weapon skills are such as Savage blade, etc. Let the new ws shine, just balance it out, don't kill the dam things and make them pointless. This is coming from one who argued against the ws orginal strength, but please making them only as good as current average ws is absolutely pointless, even if they were free to acquire. Keep the 100 merit points, but they got to be worth something.

[Concerned4FFxi]

I can understand them not wanting them to be as strong as empyreon or the stronger nyzul weaponskills. However have they seriously not stop to think what they are asking from us? We can only choose 3 if we want the maximun damage and we have to dump 100 merits into each one. Yet they are balancing it against skills we get at level 65-70 that we simply get for being at that skill level? Really?

They need to make a choice here. If their decision is to balance them on with the common mans best weaponskills then they should not be involved in the merit system at all. Becuase, What are we merited them for? So I can have a more consistent hexa strike with the same animation but the final hit? However in the end hexa has the potential to do more damage becuase of the critical hit aspect of the weaponskill? So I am dumping 100 merits into this weaponskill, changing all my current gear for what exactly?

Hell club doesn't even get a special effect. H2H got plague, Polearm got critical evasion down, even though it's square excuse for keeping that skill mostly worthless sword got ignores defense. Club got nothing. At first I thought it was square saying fuck you to white mage melee as per usual. However I got on the test server and was like holy balls the damage, then thought, "Oh, they just made it a really strong weaponskill no special effect needed." Now they are nerfing it down to hexa strike level.

If your gonna keep going down this road square just take the merit part of the equation out. Because it would be unbalanced for you to ask us to do all this much for weaponskills that are meant to compete for ones we only get for being that skill level.

Couldn't have said it any better, I still would like to see them out perform the old poor man's best ws, give them something to use at 99, ya' know.

[CrAZYVIC]

Balance.? Giving my opinion

In my opinion for balance a MMRPG not just FFXI any good MMRPG, is necesary a big Dev team 15 - 20 people cant change the things a lot Men power is needed. Updates often are necesary .(Aion have over 200 people working dev team) Why i use aion as example, because aion have over 3 millons of active users...


After of see all this Weapon Skill updates and all the VW drop system drama.
Im starting think probably Square Enix have a dedicated group of programers apart and they just make the FFXI updates without a real Knowedge about the game. Then FFXI dev team, just upload what the dedicated SE programer group send.

If this is the case our dev team cant do anything in the game they only inform us of what have planed SE for us. Admin people = People handle forums/youtube/twiter/facebook/publicity with the game only that, they cant program and they not are 3D artists.

Im starting think this's the reality of our Dev Team.

Im starting think Dear Square enix is balancing FFXI, Following estricty what the book say.

The book say a MMRPG is about.

Grind, Grind and more Grind.
Enemies involve a great numbers of players
Slow progress for the people keep paying the month
Minimiun Job updates. So when the game is dying "Even more" They can come us with a new expansion, with content balance game.
When only 1 server left. Implement a Real Cash shop in Square enix with items super rare like Masamune lv 99. 80 dolars etc. Maybe in a future we will see things like this for keep the game alive..

They are going with "What the book say" And no what the comunity and the dev team Know feel is correct

Im surprised Camate and the other moggles are answering our questions.

In Aion, Lineage2, Phantasy star universe jp etc. The dev team DONT TAKE THE MODALS FOR JUST ANSWER 1 Thing, not is for defend our dev team but at least they have modals for answer.

In NCSOFT AION. They make a update for korean server. Then THE UPDATE FOR NA come 8 months after, with lots of bugs and shit, they dont event take care if the Na comunity is happy with the update nothing just "There is the shit eat that fast"

(Aahh guess what? in aion for make 1 character WORTHY FOR RAID AND PVP TAKE AT LEAST 16 MONTHS OF GRIND, or if you are millonarie 1500+ dolars)

I hope our DEV team have the control totally the game and i'm surprised they are attending our questions at least a little.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

I'm surprised nobody else has pointed it out...

This (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StatusQuoIsGod) is what is meant by "maintaining balance" in the game. Sure, there are some flashy new aspects here and there, but ultimately they want FFXI at 99 to look almost exactly the same as FFXI at 75.

If XYZ wasn't useful then, don't expect it to become useful later. Ever.

[Babekeke]

It's a fairly easy and obvious concept.

The easiest way to look at balance is: if job A gets this suggested ability, would it make job B obsolete?

If THF can DD along with the rest of them, why take any other DD?

If PLD with all it's abilities to mitigate damage, was suddenly able to deal as much damage as a Ukon WAR, then what's the point in warrior?

Likewise, if WAR gets better damage-mitigation abilities like many of them are asking for, then what's the point in NIN or PLD?

RDM can't have cure 5 or 6 because it gets much stonger enfeebles and higher skill for landing them. (I refuse to accept phalanx 2 as an agrument).

SMN, PUP and BST don't get the best of updates, but they have their niche in many situations, and using a selection of magian weapons can allow for some very powerful pets.

DRKs claim they have the bad end of the stick, but can be utilised in many different situations by simply swapping SJ.

The balance isn't brilliant, but there is certainly some there, and it makes sense, you choose to only see what you want to see. It's human nature.

The only things that have really put one job in front of another are procs, and abyssea allowing any DD to tank anything.

[Alhanelem]

Gonna try EVE Online when my subscription runs out. Can you suggest anything else to try? That or I might just go "outside".
Of all the games you could consider as an alternative to FFXI, you choose this? EVE is one of the most brutal and cruel MMOs of the modern era.

[Malamasala]

I just wish SE understood the concept of "growth". Like they have BLM and BRD and WHM that get "tier" spells, and each new tier is better than the other, and that is logical. SMN on the other hand does not get tiers, just singles. But SE never remember to make them scale with levels so what you get at level 24, is pretty much useless around level 26 and forever into the future.

The only thing that actually scales in this game, is 70 BPs, which is why we haven't all quit at 85 when no new physical BPs were added.

[Xellith]

Of all the games you could consider as an alternative to FFXI, you choose this? EVE is one of the most brutal and cruel MMOs of the modern era.

You are saying FFXI isnt brutal or cruel?

[Urteil]

It's a fairly easy and obvious concept.

The easiest way to look at balance is: if job A gets this suggested ability, would it make job B obsolete?

If THF can DD along with the rest of them, why take any other DD?

If PLD with all it's abilities to mitigate damage, was suddenly able to deal as much damage as a Ukon WAR, then what's the point in warrior?

Likewise, if WAR gets better damage-mitigation abilities like many of them are asking for, then what's the point in NIN or PLD?

RDM can't have cure 5 or 6 because it gets much stonger enfeebles and higher skill for landing them. (I refuse to accept phalanx 2 as an agrument).

SMN, PUP and BST don't get the best of updates, but they have their niche in many situations, and using a selection of magian weapons can allow for some very powerful pets.

DRKs claim they have the bad end of the stick, but can be utilised in many different situations by simply swapping SJ.

The balance isn't brilliant, but there is certainly some there, and it makes sense, you choose to only see what you want to see. It's human nature.

The only things that have really put one job in front of another are procs, and abyssea allowing any DD to tank anything.


How the fuck does switching my SJ fix that I have nothing constructive do with my MP pool, increase my DPS more than /sam, or give me some kind of ungodly survivability.

[Babekeke]

How the fuck does switching my SJ fix that I have nothing constructive do with my MP pool

/WHM /SCH /RDM /BLM /PLD

And watch your language.


increase my DPS more than /sam

/THF gives you a crit ws every 60 seconds and some hate control, /WAR offers many JAs/traits to help increase DPS, and if you have haste, haste samba and double march you shouldn't need hasso to cap haste, so the benefit from /SAM isn't as great. Even /DRG offers jumps for extra TP, and some hate control, and /MNK offers counterstance which can increase your damage output greatly.


or give me some kind of ungodly survivability.

Sorry, I thought this was the same Urteil that claims noone can beat him in PvP.

[Quetzacoatl]

/WHM /SCH /RDM /BLM /PLD

And watch your language.

/RDM if you need something stunned. Have fun soloing otherwise. =\


/THF gives you a crit ws every 60 seconds and some hate control, /WAR offers many JAs/traits to help increase DPS, and if you have haste, haste samba and double march you shouldn't need hasso to cap haste, so the benefit from /SAM isn't as great. Even /DRG offers jumps for extra TP, and some hate control, and /MNK offers counterstance which can increase your damage output greatly.

/WAR and /DRG are terrible for TP Gain. Nothing beats having meditate for extra WS and Seigan-ThirdEye for tanking. You're off your rocker if you think Double Attack, Berserk and Warcry is more than enough to push the DPS, at the severe lack of any self-sufficient survivability methods other than Dread Spikes and having a WHM mule curebomb you. If you're dead, you're not doing more damage, are you now? For crying out loud, Urteil quoted me in his signature! and do jumps give you an extra 60 TP? i didn't think so.

However, I will agree that /MNK is good for Abyssea Tanking with Counterstance and the occasional boost for Torcleaver. /THF requires that situation where you have to have both tanks between the NM to fire off those awesome SATA numbers DRK/THFs talk about, but you don't come by that strategy very often. When you do, it produces results.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b244/FenreyVarnFFXI/SATATorcleavervsKaggen.jpg

[Phogg]

Apparently balance means, "Here is your new pet Beastmaster! We made them for you since all the new content has made charm useless. Nevertheless, enjoy leveling fishing to 100 first so you have any chance at actually using your new pets!"

[Saiken253]

indeed. Best subs for DRK are SAM(WS spam and tanking), THF(awesome WS dmg), RDM(yay stun spam! And now we can haste/refresh/buff/cure4 ourselves with it!), then WAR is useful, but not in anything outside EXPing haha.. MNK for tanking, but SAM is better.

[saevel]

It's a fairly easy and obvious concept.

The easiest way to look at balance is: if job A gets this suggested ability, would it make job B obsolete?

If THF can DD along with the rest of them, why take any other DD?

If PLD with all it's abilities to mitigate damage, was suddenly able to deal as much damage as a Ukon WAR, then what's the point in warrior?

Likewise, if WAR gets better damage-mitigation abilities like many of them are asking for, then what's the point in NIN or PLD?

RDM can't have cure 5 or 6 because it gets much stonger enfeebles and higher skill for landing them. (I refuse to accept phalanx 2 as an agrument).

SMN, PUP and BST don't get the best of updates, but they have their niche in many situations, and using a selection of magian weapons can allow for some very powerful pets.

DRKs claim they have the bad end of the stick, but can be utilised in many different situations by simply swapping SJ.

The balance isn't brilliant, but there is certainly some there, and it makes sense, you choose to only see what you want to see. It's human nature.

The only things that have really put one job in front of another are procs, and abyssea allowing any DD to tank anything.

I typically don't have a problem with this idea, except SE is picking winners and losers with their gear and WS selections. If they would take a step back and stop trying to decide which job to favor then things would eventually balance themselves out. Take SAM and WAR for example, those are two of the most powerful jobs period, yet SE keeps piling more things onto them to make them more powerful. Take DRK, BST and many others, their less powerful with some being nearly useless (RDM), those jobs deserve significant attention and overhauling yet SE avoids them like the plague. DRK's because they used to SE KC zerg everything years ago and RDM because they used to spend hours soloing something that an alliance would kill in 15min. There are lots of things they could do to both of those jobs, amongst others, that wouldn't upset the DD hirechy and thus "balance" but would instead add versatility, depth and utility. In DRK's case make all their absorb spells have a 0.5s cast time like stun and have the duration of the +stat effect last 3 min. Instantly you've created a method by which DRK can buff it's own stats without upsetting the DD pecking order. Could also use some WS modification but I'll let the DRK's chime in on that one. SE just needs to get over hating RDM, we talk about "enfeebles" but their useless on anything made in the past few years. We talk about support but any other job /RDM or /WHM is better at support then RDM main. And lets not get into the melee debate where SE is constantly hamstringing that facet. Ultimately you get a job that takes a ridiculous amount of gear, effort and concentration to be somewhat equal to jobs that a half-brain dead monkey could do.

In short, if your going to gimp something, gimp it ONCE in ONE area, not multiple times across multiple areas. Nerf effects are multiplicative not additive.