Extend Waltz Potency Cap ?

[Eri]

As easy as this. Dancer has its recasts. Seems that SE will not change them.

But why for the love of god is there a 30% Waltz Potency cap while normal Cure Potency has a 50% Cap?

And without changeing recasts... a higher Potency cap would sure help Dnc in the supportive Direction..... a bit ...... small bit.

Whats everyone thinking?

[Zhronne]

Uhm... Unless you want to cure inside abyssea it doesn't really seem that "potency" is the issue here.
The issue imho is recast, too many different things packed together into the same cooldown, which can be a looong cooldown for higher tiers, over 20 seconds.

There is only a single piece in-game atm that reduces waltz recast, and only by 2sec. The fact that such piece is an excellent job for other jobs doesn't help.
Since SE isn't likely to split cooldowns (sadly...) what they should do IMHO is release new equipment.
A new head one (so that people won't be able to stack it with the previous one) that gives -X seconds recast. To make this piece interesting they should make the reduction not fixed but %. That way it will be noticeable for high tiers, but not overpowered for low tiers.
They should also release a new item that augments Healing Waltz, so that it can erase more status effect (like song debuffs for example) and maybe 2 at a time? Would be very nice. Maybe at the cost of 2x the TP?

[Byrth]

Recast is an issue as well, but an arbitrary Waltz cap that can be reached by anyone using a single Atmacite (Atmacite of Unity) (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Category:Atmacite) is stupid.

[Zhronne]

I agree it's lame and it doesn't make sense that it caps at 30 instead of 50, but my point is that I'm a bit scared of whining about it.
Knowing SE they might uncap it from 30 to 50 and do absolutely nothing about recast.

If we really have to make our voices heard I'd rather it be on the recast issue instead of the potency one (can always whine about that later :p)
Thinking again at my idea, I really like the % recast one.
Take the -2 seconds current one. It's surely nice of course, but it doesn't really make a huge difference on stuff like Curing Waltz V. Sure, 21 seconds is better than 23, but it's still a lot.
Making that amount high enough for it to be noticeable with stuff like Curing Waltz V (like... -5 sec?) would at the same time make the piece a bit too powerful for things like Curing Waltz III (altough one could argue that you can't really spam CW3 infinitely, since you're still bound to finish TP sooner or later).
Having the -recast bonus on a % thing instead that fixed would make it more balanced for all tiers :D

Which % do you think would be balanced? Not too small, not too overpowered? I think 20%, no less than that, maybe 25%.

[Byrth]

I've always said that it's stupid to tie a necessary fix to a job to a piece of gear. They need to lower the recasts of Waltzes IV and V, not put a crutch into the game so they're useful at all.

[Zhronne]

That's true, but it's a "flaw" in their game design that their show in a wide array of aspects, we can't really expect them to change their minds just this once, just for DNCs.
I'd love your scenario much more of course, instead than an inventory+1 item (especially with my current inventory problems!), it's just that I consider more "realistically possible" the inventory solution, while yours (which I'd like a billions times more) seems very unlikely :(
Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, I don't know...

[Eri]

First off I totally agree about the recast timers..... then again that has been a Topic forever and a Day... i never use any waltz higher than 3 due to recasts its admittedly an Issue but pls... dont wander to far Offtopic :P

Its just that any DNC whos serious about it sits @ 30% Waltz Potency in Cure Gear and while useing ONLY W3 due to recast. It matters a lot in events where you dont meele continously. While i have np keeping my TP up... admittedly sometimes with rolls but thats normally not the case.....

Recasts will Prevent me from higher Waltzes yes. SO unless the recasts is, at least for 4 and 5 are fixed....
I'd wish for better potency Gear to at least get W3 to a decent cure Output.

BTW 1180 W5 on a PLD is Simply to less for 23 Sec recast seriously as mutch as i feel lowerd Timers on 4 and 5 and Healing Waltz (Not event thinking about splits yet :P) would help.

I think Potency would put a more supportive feel to it.

And looking at Rdm not getting Cure 5 ever, but Potency Gear...... I'd say Dnc deserves the Same Potency Cap in Gear to not 'degrade' us to DD's and Soloers.

Im not trying to steal a WHMs Job.... But I'd like to do resonable cures.

Where's the Waltz Potency Magian Wep? XD Don't care if i need to farm 300 light Geodes :P (A Recast Wep would be acceptable too, but it may overpower /dnc)

[FrankReynolds]

The only way I could see potency fixing the problem, is if they made waltz 2 cure for like 450, waltz 3 cure for 800, and waltz 4 cure for like 1400. That way we could continue to not use 5.

[Eri]

The only way I could see potency fixing the problem, is if they made waltz 2 cure for like 450, waltz 3 cure for 800, and waltz 4 cure for like 1400. That way we could continue to not use 5.

Ends Up with raising the lvl of W3 to lv51 I'd be cool with that.

[Byrth]

Well, imop this (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Waltz_Efficiency)is the real problem with our Waltz tier setup.

Look at the first table:
* Go to the "175 : Main -5 TP" column, which means 175 combined VIT/CHR as DNC with -5 TP pants.
* Compare Curing Waltz III to IV and V.
* Notice that it is pretty comparably efficient in terms of HP/TP.
* Consider that overflow (healing for more HP than you needed to) is more of an issue with Curing Waltz IV and V than with III.
* /rage

Look at the next table.
* Look at the "175 : Main -2" column, which means 175 combined VIT/CHR with Recast -2 seconds.
* Compare Curing Waltz III to IV and V.
* /rage

I use Curing Waltz V in these situations:
* Between Saber Dance usages in Abyssea, if necessary.
* If I'm taking a pretty predictable amount of damage (no big TP moves), don't need to heal much, and don't want my attack rounds delayed
* Hail Mary Cure in bad situations when I don't want hate.

I think that the main advantage of Curing Waltz IV/V was supposed to be their reduced Enmity. Considering we're one of the most durable jobs in the game, I think that was a little misguided.

[Zhronne]

The only way I could see potency fixing the problem, is if they made waltz 2 cure for like 450, waltz 3 cure for 800, and waltz 4 cure for like 1400. That way we could continue to not use 5.
Fixing a problem by making lower tier JAs even more powerful so that you feel even less the need to use the higher tier ones is not really a way to "fix" the problem, is it?

[FrankReynolds]

Fixing a problem by making lower tier JAs even more powerful so that you feel even less the need to use the higher tier ones is not really a way to "fix" the problem, is it?

No. That was the point. They should just split the timers, but they love to troll their customers with BS like this.

[Rukkirii]

Hey guys! We will be looking into adjusting the caps to waltz cure potency along with our adjustments to cure potency in general. :)

In regards to your feedback about separating shared cooldowns for DNC, the dev. team has no plans on separating them.

[FrankReynolds]

LOL! See what I mean....

There are like 1,000 posts on this forum about how screwed the shared timers are. So the devs decide to look at this thread.

EDIT: come on devs...... read the thread your in. I know you guys can't translate all this stuff, but this thread is only 10 10 posts. Please stop trolling us with this crap.

[Byrth]

This is nice, as I said above, but it doesn't affect the issue that I laid out in this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18056-Extend-Waltz-Potency-Cap?p=242897&viewfull=1#post242897)at all.

[Eri]

Time to get working on that dumb Dance Shoes Quest for a better Pair i suspect now. :O

[Alhanelem]

I don't know why the devs think this would be broken. You're still limited by TP and the individual recasts, so even if you had enough TP to do every waltz as often as possible, it still wouldn't match a mage's healing speed.

[scaevola]

I don't know why the devs think this would be broken. You're still limited by TP and the individual recasts, so even if you had enough TP to do every waltz as often as possible, it still wouldn't match a mage's healing speed.

Well, mages aren't (generally) uninterruptable, unkillable, unstoppable curetanks that can refill a third of their MP bar on demand every 30 seconds, either. I mean, I'm not saying split waltz cooldowns would be apocalyptic or something and I'd love them as much as the next DNC, but of all the issues on which SE is perhaps inappropriately conservative for fear of making something overpowered and trivializing the entire game, this is far from the most unwarranted.

That said, somebody floated the idea of a 2-FM Group 1 flourish that reset your waltz cooldown and I think that's a great solution to a very real problem that on the one hand critically limits a popular job but is conceivably dangerous to address carelessly.

[FrankReynolds]

This is nice, as I said above, but it doesn't affect the issue that I laid out in this post (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/18056-Extend-Waltz-Potency-Cap?p=242897&viewfull=1#post242897)at all.

Never mind the fact that all that raising the cap likely means adding more retardedly expensive/rare items like roundel earring for us to try and get.

[Eri]

I don't know why the devs think this would be broken. You're still limited by TP 1* and the individual recasts, so even if you had enough TP to do every waltz as often as possible, it still wouldn't match a mage's healing speed. 2*

1* And i don't see how im limited by TP at all. The limit are Recasts.

2* Exactly this. You would be Limited by recasts. So while being limited by recasts the Dnc Cures need to recover more HP so with unchanged recasts the only possibility to get more out of what you have is simpy extending the cap on Potency.

Diffrent Issue. Diffrent Answer.

[Byrth]

If they removed recasts altogether, we'd be TP limited. I'd argue that even in that case we'd barely begin to approach WHM's healing power.

[scaevola]

True, but that's just another ring around the mulberry bush of "White Mage is the most overpowered healer in the history of MMORPGs, both relative to content and other healers, and it is ruining this game".

It's basically impossible to have a worthwhile discussion of what DNC (or RDM, or SCH) needs and doesn't need if we're going to use WHM as the point of reference.

[Abithra]

Well if they go through with increasing the cap, that at least is a good start in my books.

But maybe we can pester the devs even more until they finally give in :D

*starts delving into more dark magic books of possessing minds*

[FrankReynolds]

Well if they go through with increasing the cap, that at least is a good start in my books.

But maybe we can pester the devs even more until they finally give in :D

*starts delving into more dark magic books of possessing minds*

It's actually a bad start as it means they are definitely not going to reduce and / or split timers. We will therefore never have any real use for V, and will always feel a tinge of regret when we hit that IV macro.

[SpankWustler]

Hey guys! We will be looking into adjusting the caps to waltz cure potency along with our adjustments to cure potency in general. :)

In regards to your feedback about separating shared cooldowns for DNC, the dev. team has no plans on separating them.

http://www.0-60mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/farnsworth-good-news.jpg

"I've just invented an adjustment to Waltzes that ignores the primary concern of 99% of all people who play Dancer! It's also made out of fire!"

[Deadvinta]

Why do you want potency anyway? Buff your DD gear. If there are Dancers out there that want to play the job for the Waltzes only, I'll be flabbergasted.

[FrankReynolds]

Why do you want potency anyway? Buff your DD gear. If there are Dancers out there that want to play the job for the Waltzes only, I'll be flabbergasted.

I like playing the job as a dd personally. I'm just hoping this doesn't turn into an excuse to nerf melee stuff, like treasure hunter is for thief. I don't want to get replies from the devs like: "We decided not to give dnc access to <insert desired buff here> because we feel that they are already highly desired for their powerful curing."

[Calysto]

better than nothing(now just add some actual waltz potency+ gears), but still...

seems relic head+2 is a mere +2% potency.

SE showed us that they were able to make gears with : waltz tp cost- and waltz recast-
only 1 of each in the whole gameif you chose it of course...

my guess is next update will have a great katana with +50% waltz potency

[FrankReynolds]

my guess is next update will have a great katana with +50% waltz potency

Only +%50? Yes, but they will allow Samurai to dual wield them.

[Asymptotic]

Why do you want potency anyway? Buff your DD gear. If there are Dancers out there that want to play the job for the Waltzes only, I'll be flabbergasted.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32078748/FFXI3/11979527.jpg

[Deadvinta]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32078748/FFXI3/11979527.jpg

Imaging fail.

[Zhronne]

See what I meant in the first pages when I was talking about complaining on the wrong things? ;_;

Trying to see the glass half-full I guess this is an apreciated change especially for dedicated dancers... but I would have loved more some tweaks to recasts sigh

[autobot]

Great another reason to have even less inventory space. As if we don't already have a crap load of situational gear.

Seriously this is totally a bad thing, not just for inventory which is already limited but now we have to hope they create some new waltz potency that has higher percentages than 3%, that isn't a random augment and isn't all jobs so everyone else can just /dnc and get the same benefits.

[FrankReynolds]

Great another reason to have even less inventory space. As if we don't already have a crap load of situational gear.

Seriously this is totally a bad thing, not just for inventory which is already limited but now we have to hope they create some new waltz potency that has higher percentages than 3%, that isn't a random augment and isn't all jobs so everyone else can just /dnc and get the same benefits.

Also hoping it's not a .1% drop from the new high tier log watch.

[Abithra]

It's actually a bad start as it means they are definitely not going to reduce and / or split timers. We will therefore never have any real use for V, and will always feel a tinge of regret when we hit that IV macro.

Um...wasn't talking about the splitting timers being good...was talking about cap increase...

I obviously wasn't clear enough in my post even though I definitalely said it.... :x

[FrankReynolds]

Um...wasn't talking about the splitting timers being good...was talking about cap increase...

I obviously wasn't clear enough in my post even though I definitalely said it.... :x

I know. The point that I was making was that this isn't a good start to anything. Instead of fixing an obvious issue, they are adding more gear for you to grind out, and they are probably adding it to an event that no one is going to let you come to as dancer. So you will probably spend the next several months doing events on some other job, and when you get that +%3 cure gear, it's still not gonna change things. whats worse is that this is the nail in the coffin for changing recast timers and or splitting them.

[Eri]

If you play your Job well and have the Gear needed noones going to stop you from doing any event on DNC .... you LS matters too. If you think: "I'm a DD on Dnc" . No your not going to do an event on Dnc ever. Supporter and Healer Type of Dancers are in genral way more accepted in events.

[Byrth]

For things like Voidwatch, there's just no reason to bring a Dancer. Have a proc job like NIN sub it.

For old content stuff, it is as useful as any other light-DD, but its enhancing/support capacities are underutilized because there's no reason to have more than about 3 people there. The only old-content event that requires more than 3 people is Einherjar, and that's purely due to the entrance restriction.

I would have rather not been told about this update, because hearing about it through an announcement like this makes it sound like they think this legitimately addresses the problem. I would have rather gotten a message explaining why they ever thought it was a good idea to arbitrarily cap Waltz potency at 30%.

[Eri]

On a Sidenote. This is not only giveing the possiblity to add more Potency Gear. It also means a small chance of a 'Potency Job Trait' for the main Job. Its not even hard to imagine to add something of that kind to distinguish Main and Sub.

[Abithra]

I know. The point that I was making was that this isn't a good start to anything. Instead of fixing an obvious issue, they are adding more gear for you to grind out, and they are probably adding it to an event that no one is going to let you come to as dancer. So you will probably spend the next several months doing events on some other job, and when you get that +%3 cure gear, it's still not gonna change things. whats worse is that this is the nail in the coffin for changing recast timers and or splitting them.

Bleh I do understand you just I am gonna stick with its a good start since it is nice to have something then nothing at all.

You may not understand but thats that :)

(I do want timers split or recast reducations if you think I dont)

[Gakaroth]

Dear Devs.

SPLIT WALTZES!

Ty.~



Waltzes I : curing waltz 1/2/3 healing waltz and divine waltz 1.
Waltzes II: Curing waltz 4/5 Divine waltz 2.


That is all.

[Asymptotic]

If you play your Job well and have the Gear needed noones going to stop you from doing any event on DNC .... you LS matters too. If you think: "I'm a DD on Dnc" . No your not going to do an event on Dnc ever. Supporter and Healer Type of Dancers are in genral way more accepted in events.

With whom are you playing? People stuck in 2007? I get complained at on Skype if I waltz myself because that means I dropped Saber Dance.

Currently, dancer's support ability is next to nonexistent, unless you count the ability to keep 1-2 other people alive while fighting EP enemies as legitimate "support."

[Solsticewind]

With whom are you playing? People stuck in 2007? I get complained at on Skype if I waltz myself because that means I dropped Saber Dance.

Currently, dancer's support ability is next to nonexistent, unless you count the ability to keep 1-2 other people alive while fighting EP enemies as legitimate "support."


I would say you are not that good of a Dnc then sir. if that is the best you can pull off ^_- please tell me that is against 20 some ep's. In the LS I run with I'm asked to come Dnc to tank/hold adds, help with healing, procing, and finding hints and NEVER have any one complained about the face I don't even HAVE saber dance. really if the "best" you can do is keep 2 others alive as well as your self when fighting a ep you fail rather well at Dnc. I for one am one if the *gasp* Healer and support Dnc one of the few left by the looks of things and THAT is why I'm wanted on events like VW any help they give to the walzes well be welcomed by me and the few others out there that don't play their Dnc like a gimped Thf.

[Eri]

I would say you are not that good of a Dnc then sir. if that is the best you can pull off ^_- please tell me that is against 20 some ep's. In the LS I run with I'm asked to come Dnc to tank/hold adds, help with healing, procing, and finding hints and NEVER have any one complained about the face I don't even HAVE saber dance. really if the "best" you can do is keep 2 others alive as well as your self when fighting a ep you fail rather well at Dnc. I for one am one if the *gasp* Healer and support Dnc one of the few left by the looks of things and THAT is why I'm wanted on events like VW any help they give to the walzes well be welcomed by me and the few others out there that don't play their Dnc like a gimped Thf.

This is right for Certain.

And the Point is:

Can you keep a Party cured in a Voidwatch Zerg? No? Neither can I!

Can I keep a Voidwatch Pt Alive if they are carefully Procing and DDing? Yes.

Can a Brd do it? No?

Would it need a Whm? Yes?

Well you not Whm your a supportive class you are supposed to make the mages Job less stressful while helping the Meeles do their Job.....

If you can't do that try a DD Job.

[Asymptotic]

Don't even get me started on Dynamis, the only reason you're there on DNC is because of the proc system. If that didn't exist, you'd take a THF, WHM, and a WAR or something like that and tear things to pieces for max efficiency. DNC would be reserved for those who want to stubbornly solo, basically. Yay for gimmicks!

So let's talk about DNC in real events: VW for example. Okay, so you say that DNC can keep a party alive while carefully procing and DD? Maybe, on something that didn't do a lot of AoE.

The point is, why would you bring a DNC to do that when you could just bring a real support job and call it a day. Can a BRD keep a voidwatch party alive? No. But you know what? 2 WHMs is generally enough to keep an entire VW alliance alive anyway, so who cares? Bring the BRD, or even a COR, because you need them for procs anyway and they'll provide a much greater assistance to the party.

If you INSIST on playing DNC, and the WHMs are perfectly fine handling the cures on their own (which they are, or else you should pretty much get better WHMs, sorry), then what's the point of "supporting" them with waltzes? So they can sit on their temp items for longer? So they can sit at above 50% MP while an Aegis or Ochain PLD takes 100 dmg every 4 seconds?

I'll tell you what the point is: there isn't. You could have spent that TP on something else, which basically boils down to Samba + Damage and debuffing with steps (The ability to find weaknesses quickly is not unique to DNC, as anyone /DNC can do the same thing, although DNC does boast significantly more survivability than most jobs on the front lines). Rudra's can deal 2.5-3.5k damage on Jeuno/Zilart T3s, and that's nothing to scoff at, really. It's better than wasting your time "helping" mages who don't need it because they have infinite MP. Inb4 "Not everyone has Rudra's." Who brings non-empyrean melee to Voidwatch? Come on now.

The biggest lack of insight in this thread however is


me and the few others out there that don't play their Dnc like a gimped Thf.

Gimped THF? It's pretty well-established that DNC's DD potential has overshadowed THF since 80 cap. This is why the THF forum complains so much when DNC get anything even moderately offensive.

The point is, the thing DNC does most efficiently right now is damage. Sure, it can function as a gimped and inefficient supporter, but it's like I always say:

It's perfectly fine to play at reduced efficiency (I make this decision when I choose to go DNC to events in the first place over something more useful), but don't delude yourself into thinking that it's "ideal" just because it's "your playstyle."

[Asymptotic]

Anyway, I'm not saying this is how things SHOULD be. I'm just pointing out the state of things as they ARE.

Fixing what is obviously amiss (DNC being terrible at its intended purpose - support) is the whole point of these two threads:
Two (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/11917-Suggestions-to-Improve-Rebalance-Vanadiel-s-Divas)
Threads (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/15404-Dancer-Suggestions-Round-II)

[autobot]

Not to derail the derail, but if they do increase the cap on waltz potency to something like 50% or better it would be really nice if they added a dagger trial to something on par with the curing potency staff. Yes i know there is the phurba, but we can dual wield waltz potency daggers if something like this were available which would put us closer to the raised cap without 50 other pieces of gear at 1%-5% a pop.

And if they really wanted to make dnc's wet in the pants they could also have a waltz -timer on the same dagger.

[Asymptotic]

And if they really wanted to make dnc's wet in the pants they could also have a waltz -timer on the same dagger.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32078748/FFXI3/nope.png

[Byrth]

In a merit-style party of 6 fighting VT/IT monsters without AoE TP moves, DNC can probably keep everyone alive as long as one of the buffing jobs (BRD or COR) subs WHM. There are absolutely 0 events that would inspire such a situation, though.

[Asymptotic]

In a merit-style party of 6 fighting VT/IT monsters without AoE TP moves, DNC can probably keep everyone alive as long as one of the buffing jobs (BRD or COR) subs WHM. There are absolutely 0 events that would inspire such a situation, though.

Farming limit break items!

[Eri]

I dont count soloable things as events farming limit break items. :x

[Byrth]

I dont count soloable things as events farming limit break items. :x

Then you don't have a whole hell of a lot to count.

[Eri]

Here are the Details on the changes [dev1076] Healing Adjustments (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20089-dev1076-Healing-Adjustments)
Looks like a 50% cap! Thats a huge change right there!

[Zhronne]

30% cap was retarded to begin with, altough honestly items with waltz potency are not as easily obtainable as the curepotency ones.

1% Plectrum
3% Valseur
4% Shoes (fuck gettin 'em ><)
5% Roundel
10% AF1 Body
10% Phurba

That's 33, and getting Shoes is frustrating, Roundel is really expensive and Valseur is... uhm more affordable I guess but 700k still look like overpriced for 3% to me. I guess this is a very subjective thing depending on how much everybody cares about DNC and how much money he has.

In my opinion they should have just consolidated Potency and Waltz gear.


Edit:
I didn't consider Etoile Tiara and its HQ versions simply because imho you should be using Anwig Salade in there. Hoping in the future SE will give us another head equipment with Waltz recast- so that people will be able to get other enhancements on the Anwig >_>

[Calysto]

not sure i get the whole thing here...

does that mean cure potency will affect waltzes ?
i'd like that, but i have doubts :
if so they could merge theses stats, but i'd understand them not doing so, as they already exists...
but then why create a new "waltz recevied potency" stat ? that would make no sense if the effect were merged.

i also don't get the "current method".
even if i never tested the "30% waltz cap"(hard to break that without atmas anyway).

so ok, if the ppl who tested had Atma of Harmony and Roundel Earing, the cure potency would be 15%
if that account before waltz in the cap, they should have found 35%, not 30%.
but i guess that's possible...

so if cure+ don't affect waltz and the "revised method" just separated potency+ and received+, meaning one of the rare waltz+, roundel earing would still make us lose 5% on the cap(same for atma of harmony).

Not like there was way to get to the cap as you only have 40% waltz potency in the whole game (without abyssea or campain).

[Byrth]

Waltz Received Potency +3% exists on a drop (ring) that was added to the test server a while back. It is pretty much only useful for self-Waltzes. I have all the gear that Zhronne listed, and I was (functionally) never limited by the Waltz cap because I never use Phurba.

This does not really solve the feasibility issues with Waltzes or make alternative methods of increasing potency any more viable. As I have suggested in the past, SE should lower the base HP healed a little and increase the multiplier for the (VIT+CHR) term for Waltzes. This would let us pump up our Waltzes a little and would rely on a stat other than Waltz potency to do so. Adding 40 CHR to your Curing Waltz III set (with +25% potency) only increases your HP healed by 37 points. Isn't that a little ridiculous?

[Eri]

I genereally agree with Byrth on this. But as for the Cap... it would also oped the possibility for a Job Trait Level 50+ that adds a Set % of Potency for the mainjob Job. It would even make sense...that is unless more over expensive Gear is added :x

[Asymptotic]

Yeah, right now the waltz potency cap is kind of irrelevant because in order to breach it, you need to use Phurba. If you're using Phurba, you might as well go sit in a corner, or job change to WHM.

They need to reduce the recast (in some way, shape, or form), even if they have to make waltzes more expensive to do it. Balance, etc.

Until then Waltzes are good for, um, uh, solo.

[Eri]

We are not all Soloers or DD and i feel Dnc subjob is getting to mutch already....

Healing Waltz and high tier cures give to much recast in Party situations to be a reliable supporthealer.
That is an Issue.
But letme ask you.... as you Mentioned Phurba often. Given in my opinion totally situational. (NOT BAD)

Would you like a Stace Ability that "Cuts recast times off by 40% but restricts Weaponsiklls and lowers Evasion" ?
Well guess what. I would. And i would use Phurba then.... offhand.... sometime......
but i would personally prefere they added a Magian Waltz Potency Weapon. Mages get a Staff with Cure Potency.....

[Asymptotic]

The thing is, you could be using a better mainhand (Twashtar or Terpsichore) and offhanding STP or OA2-4 on support DNC, and improve your TP gain rate to actually keep up with the Waltz timer.

Or, you could gear your Daggers for more damage, meaning things die faster, meaning there's less reason for you to waltz.

Phurba is just hurting your performance, no matter how you look at it.

I'm not sure how I feel about that ability. -40% recast isn't going to pass the balance machine, though.

[Eri]

I think it probably would be ok with 40% if the drawback on DMG was great enought and you could not solo with it.
So i would take no WS and i would take say -80+ Eva for a recast reduction by 40%.
(as a Mode Like Saber Dance or Fan Dance)
Maybe thats just me.

Its not even broken since it would make you a true Supporter and looking at Spellcures they can spamm them virtually.
You would be Limited by Tp gain.

As of now im going Daka+3/Lux Pugio until my Terpsichore is done.... (Sorry but Twashtar hurts my looks XD)

But in a situation where you have good tp gain without meeleing... Say Monshade(Ragain) + Regain Rolls + /Sam + Sch Regain (Had this sometime) then Phurba makes a good addintion, however the use is somewhat Limited.

[Zhronne]

Truth be said, the Ice cone... i mean Twashtar hurts anybody's looks! :P
But so do so many other incredibly useful items, can't get too picky in this game I guess, and if you are you can always datswap!

[Fyreus]

^ I wish we could change SE's way of thinking as far as balance goes. No one should pick between useful and style. Why is this big so important in their eyes? My deadly character doesn't need to look cute with furry meow meow gloves on because they give haste/dex/agi. There's no reason they should be pushing turdish models through their pipeline and OKing it and slapping on badass stats.

After dealing with the ups and downs that ninja has gone through over the years, i'd expect them to have a clear vision of a job's path and it's needs even if it's only been out for over 3+ years or 1k days or however you want to look at it. Telling me to go buy the two mini expansions so that i can get a measly -2 sec recast or -5tp when stuff cost 50+ tp and have a recast of like 10/15/17/23 while our counter parts (rdm/blu/smn/whm/sch/blm/pld) heal in under half the time or less and can do more healing per sec.

Sadly i have a feeling that they'll reconsider the recast timers after they reconsider smn's bp timers.

[Fyreus]

Alright... quick side bar.

Does cure potency and waltz potency stack? They used the word stack, but i can't see it with my desultor tassets. Did i miss something? I can't find cure potency elsewhere but legs.

[Eri]

Its a bit of a bad formulation. Cure Potency does not work on Waltzes as of now.

So:

Cure Potency Stacks to Cure Potency ( Up to 50%)

Waltz Potency to Waltz Potency (Up to 50%)

Then you can add in Waltz or Cure recieved gear (35% Cap ?) reaching the full cap (like 85% i cant recall the real number)

Meaning that Cure Potency will not affect Waltz Potency and vice versa. Least how i understand that.

Desultor tassets will only give the benefit of -5 tp to cures for Dancers.
The 5% Cure Potency augment most likely doesnt affect anything for Dnc.

If it did roundel Earring would be 10% Potency (5% Walz and 5% Cure) doesn't sound right does it?

[Asymptotic]

Cure Potency and Waltz Potency are separate stats.

[Dawnn]

Only +%50? Yes, but they will allow Samurai to dual wield them.

They already did! its called Scathacha! XD

[Economizer]

Alright... quick side bar.

They are separate stats. They both stack to 50% each. There is also a waltz potency received stat that stacks to a separate 30% cap that is calculated multiplicative with normal gear.

[Eri]

Btw... who in hell even cares about 'recived' Gear ? Outside of self Cures?

[FrankReynolds]

Btw... who in hell even cares about 'recived' Gear ? Outside of self Cures?

Super handy for tanking. Thant's all I can think of.

[Economizer]

Btw... who in hell even cares about 'recived' Gear ? Outside of self Cures?

It is mostly related to the Corsair's Phantom Roll ability with the Healer's Roll. But us White Mages care very deeply about things that affect cures so we did research on it in order to determine how it functioned and we found that it is multiplicative, which is very important.

Plus if we're really lucky maybe SE will introduce a temp item that boosts the effects of cures and waltzes received.

[Asymptotic]

If by "did research on it" you mean that SE stated it explicitly in their dev posts, okay.

[Economizer]

If by "did research on it" you mean that SE stated it explicitly in their dev posts, okay.

I definitely commend people who keep up with the dev posts, it eliminates questions like "is cure potency and waltz potency the same thing" however we did actual research on the potency received effects that Corsairs can also grant. It (well, cure potency, waltzes aren't affected by weather that I know of) multiplies (not adds) to weather effects too unlike the Twilight Cape which adds to weather effects. This means you get an even bigger bonus then if it just counted as a boosted weather effect bonus.

[Asymptotic]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/20089-dev1076-Healing-Adjustments?p=268359#post268359

Like I said, they already explained how it would work. Also, if you needed dev posts to understand that cure + and waltz + don't affect each other, I don't know what to tell you.

[Asymptotic]

Also lol@ healer's roll.

[Fupafighter]

K if you guys have issues with dancer not being able to act like a whm, I think you can just go play whm lol. Whm can't do damage and cure, do you seem them bitching? The timers are fine. I have not had an issue yet.

[FrankReynolds]

K if you guys have issues with dancer not being able to act like a whm, I think you can just go play whm lol. Whm can't do damage and cure, do you seem them bitching? The timers are fine. I have not had an issue yet.

My WHM gets into any event I want in. Why would I need to do damage?

[Fupafighter]

My WHM gets into any event I want in. Why would I need to do damage?

And why would dnc need to do a whm job? Get my point? Dnc specializes in doing DAMAGE, while whm specializes in CURING. STop fuckin stalking every thread im in and arguing with me. I'm not even kidding lol...you seriously stalkin me.

[Eri]

And why would dnc need to do a whm job? Get my point? Dnc specializes in doing DAMAGE...

You don't seem to understand the Job obviously. Play Mnk, Sam, War, Drg instead.

Dancers who try to focusing on DDing are quite competent in that BUT Dancers who try mainhealing are Too.

Reduceing a Hydrid class to one Side of it abilitys is just sorry buisness.

Theres enought players that Leveld this Job to be a Supporter NOT yet another DD.

[Asymptotic]

While Fupafighters statement is flawed, you're the one that is pretending that the support side of DNC is currently relevant, so you really shouldn't speak on who understands the job and who doesn't.

[FrankReynolds]

And why would dnc need to do a whm job? Get my point? Dnc specializes in doing DAMAGE, while whm specializes in CURING. STop fuckin stalking every thread im in and arguing with me. I'm not even kidding lol...you seriously stalkin me.


DNC specializes in doing both. The problem is that one side is weaker than the other at the moment. Stop trolling and get over your self. If you stopped popping into threads that I've posted in, and saying stupid stuff like "DNC is DD only Rawr!" and "Ninja & Thief SUX!" I wouldn't bother with you.

[Eri]

Understanding a job and how you play it differs greatly. And while yes the supportive type is currently not the side you have to play THATs a Community thing... (as in you dont need heavy Support with 18 Ppl on a Joke Nm in Voidwatch or in lolabysea) if you Play like in a PT with 6 Ppl your supprot is welcome mostly more than DD. (Not has to be true in every setup. If its not needed sure DD) BUT i'm being realistic. That DNC is a DD stuff is not only a flawed Idea ~ its silly to be honest.

[Fupafighter]

You don't seem to understand the Job obviously. Play Mnk, Sam, War, Drg instead.

Dancers who try to focusing on DDing are quite competent in that BUT Dancers who try mainhealing are Too.

Reduceing a Hydrid class to one Side of it abilitys is just sorry buisness.

Theres enought players that Leveld this Job to be a Supporter NOT yet another DD.
Ohhhh heres the kicker moron lol, I have 90 verethregna and masamune just for that. But you have to realize dancer is much more capable of doing damage compared to healing. That's the way it was designed. I know in all events except for VW, my dancer pushes almost the same killspeed as my samurai and my monk. The job is what it is, asking for it to be a whm too is ridiculous.

[Fupafighter]

I can understand peoples wants to have the waltz timer split and a 50% cap, but it's really not needed. Doing that would make dnc invincible in all aspect except for endgame. The only reason dnc struggles against any content is because they have the timers on waltz. 1k+ waltz with mediocre gear is fine with almost all of us dnc. And situations where your in like a 6 man pty, do you really want the dev team to change the timers and make the job completely unbalanced just so you can act like a whm and hit stuff? I would personally quit the job if they make it that strong.

[FrankReynolds]

I can understand peoples wants to have the waltz timer split and a 50% cap, but it's really not needed. Doing that would make dnc invincible in all aspect except for endgame. The only reason dnc struggles against any content is because they have the timers on waltz. 1k+ waltz with mediocre gear is fine with almost all of us dnc.

Umm.. I highly doubt that anyone on any job is okay with mediocre gear besides you. There are better DD jobs out there. The only people who are going to pick a "DD onry" dancer over a sam or monk are your friends (and trust me, they want you to job change).

Are you seriously saying you have vare and masa in one post, and then claiming that you would quit a job if it became too powerful in the next?

[Byrth]

Galkas galk'in. All I see.

Dancer wouldn't be a useful job in a supporting role even if they fixed Waltzes because the situations where it used to be useful are pretty much gone. Where would we heal?
Abyssea - It is either already possible or there is little SE could do to promote it.
Voidwatch - It is pretty much impossible due to AoEs.
Walk of Echoes - See Voidwatch.
Legion - See Voidwatch.
Neo-NI - Not really playing a supporting role here if you are either off solo or have a real healer.
Old content - Isn't really done with more than 3 people.

The only situation I can think of that would promote a supporting-DNC role is meleeburning DC Dynamis monsters for R/Ex pop items.

[Eri]

Ohhhh heres the kicker moron lol, I have 90 verethregna and masamune just for that. But you have to realize dancer is much more capable of doing damage compared to healing. That's the way it was designed. I know in all events except for VW, my dancer pushes almost the same killspeed as my samurai and my monk. The job is what it is, asking for it to be a whm too is ridiculous.

Did i get personal in any way? I guess no but i'll get to that,

Your admit that your Sam and Mnk are Abysburned and have sucky gear/skills right now eh?
Bet they are.

No one even asked Dnc to outdo a Whm in its role nor do i want split timers since its overpowering.
But Cure Potency cap is a diffrent story. Its awsome on spot healing.
And it doesnt even concern PPL that cant even reach 30%......

And i never said that i wanna mainheal again. So let me clarify..... if im Healing around 5 ppl in an event thats ok considdering they have better Dmg than me. (if not i'll DD)
Debuffing and Buffing are Support too. That said you can DD but your have to priorize cures over DD and be ready to do it. As in no means to get tp instanly = Bad.


Galkas galk'in. All I see.

Dancer wouldn't be a useful job in a supporting role even if they fixed Waltzes because the situations where it used to be useful are pretty much gone. Where would we heal?
Abyssea - It is either already possible or there is little SE could do to promote it.
Voidwatch - It is pretty much impossible due to AoEs.
Walk of Echoes - See Voidwatch.
Legion - See Voidwatch.
Neo-NI - Not really playing a supporting role here if you are either off solo or have a real healer.
Old content - Isn't really done with more than 3 people.

The only situation I can think of that would promote a supporting-DNC role is meleeburning DC Dynamis monsters for R/Ex pop items.

As said its NOT about mainhealing. Spot healers are Spot healers and you can heal in any of the events that you mentioned. Given not mainheal.
But without cure Potency gear you arnt at your full potential of playing.

[Byrth]

No, actually in most of the events I named you're better off either coming a different job and bringing a real healer or using Saber Dance and bringing a real healer. Situations where you're not main healing but "Spot Healing" is short-hand for "My alliance/party is very very poorly planned." Most of the events up there wouldn't even tolerate such poorly planned alliances.

[Eri]

No, actually in most of the events I named you're better off either coming a different job and bringing a real healer or using Saber Dance and bringing a real healer. Situations where you're not main healing but "Spot Healing" is short-hand for "My alliance/party What is that?is very very poorly planned." Most of the events up there wouldn't even tolerate such poorly planned alliances.

Is Like that every shout Alli is a poor excuse for something real... given if you go with you friends you DD mostly. But shout groups are the base exaple for poorly planned ...

[Byrth]

If you go with such a poorly planned Voidwatch alliance that it relies on a Dancer's cures to win, you should really just kick everyone and try again. It would actually be less painful than continuing with such a fail group. Repeat for the other events.

[Fupafighter]

Did i get personal in any way? I guess no but i'll get to that,

Your admit that your Sam and Mnk are Abysburned and have sucky gear/skills right now eh?
Bet they are.

No one even asked Dnc to outdo a Whm in its role nor do i want split timers since its overpowering.
But Cure Potency cap is a diffrent story. Its awsome on spot healing.
And it doesnt even concern PPL that cant even reach 30%......

And i never said that i wanna mainheal again. So let me clarify..... if im Healing around 5 ppl in an event thats ok considdering they have better Dmg than me. (if not i'll DD)
Debuffing and Buffing are Support too. That said you can DD but your have to priorize cures over DD and be ready to do it. As in no means to get tp instanly = Bad.



As said its NOT about mainhealing. Spot healers are Spot healers and you can heal in any of the events that you mentioned. Given not mainheal.
But without cure Potency gear you arnt at your full potential of playing.

Been 75 sam and mnk since 75 lol...Get a twashtar and try dnc/war, and you will understand the potential the job allows. The job does just fine for support healing, and it takes barely any damage due to superior evasion. The job has the ability to have great damage output, evasion tank anything worthwhile, support cure, and enfeeble, but that's not enough? Need to split timers and give us more? The job is PERFECT the way it is. And no frank, i refuse to talk to you. I don't even know if you play the damn job and you comment on the shit as if your godly at it.

[Fupafighter]

Oh and trying to dis me doesn't work lol. I typically parse first to second every run with ukon warriors on my sam haha. Just saying, dancer isn't needed as a support healer. It's far better off as a DD/cure if needed.

[Eri]

Oh and trying to dis me doesn't work lol. I typically parse first to second every run with ukon warriors on my sam haha. Just saying, dancer isn't needed as a support healer. It's far better off as a DD/cure if needed.

I forgot i don't even need to Dis you. Your a Galka. Period.

Its like you didnt even Read. That what i said. And If you don't place you Dmg Output over cures thats Supportive playstyle. (Considdering you do your Debuffs/Haste Samba)

Been on the DD side. Dmg output is huge if you gear for it yes. And you need around 2 WHM because the almighty defenses arnt all that good. But then again your not capping attack easyly on everything worthwhile. And theres the Issue that your not the only person in the Group. Others need the Mages too. There will be a Sam or a Mnk (Useually) doing more Dmg, but dieing faster.

So its more like, either you die fast or you need around 2 mages to yourself.... teamplay?

And i have Rudras makes it even worse capping hate so fast.

So i hold Dmg a bit since i don't wanna tank, or in some cases even cure more then dmg since spellcures are to slow in some cases.

[Asymptotic]

Sounds like the real reason you think that support DNC has a place in modern FFXI is that you play with really horrible mages.

Two good white mages (sometimes, one) can keep an entire Voidwatch alliance alive barring NMs that cast death or one-shot people with no support from even a BRD, RDM, or COR (let's face it, the WHM is just going to get DD rolls even if there is a COR in their party...which in most cases there will be).

Not being in Voidwatch implies that you're either 1.) in Abyssea, 2.) fighting enemies that are a maximum of Decent Challenge, or 3.) doing Grounds of Valor on high level enemies.

In case 1.) You cap evasion on everything in a DD set, and you can solo almost everything without shadows. Let's face it, if you're bringing DNC to Abyssea, you're either in a large group that has everything covered and you're just tagging along, you're soloing, or you're stupid. There's rarely a reason to drop saber dance, either.

In case 2.) You will very nearly cap evasion with signet and your DD set. You're probably one of the more survivable jobs just because nothing can hit you, and you have Fan Dance if shit hits the ... uh ... fan. For the most part, a Waltz V every 3 minutes (Saber Dance recast) is enough to keep you going provided that you bring remedies or remedy ointments along and are fighting enemies that don't cast magic.

In case 3.) You must be pretty bored.

You claim to understand the job well, and yet your posts point to exactly the opposite. We all want support DNC to be viable. It just isn't. Claiming your spot cures, sambas, and watered down damage are a strong enough asset to a party or alliance to merit you not being there on another job is just ... well ... either you're completely delusional, or you're playing with some really terrible groups.

It's basically the same as a RDM claiming that they are worth bringing because they can melee.

[Eri]

Whats with WoE? :>
and if im pretty bored I go solo VT-IT+ just for the Challenge. (You and find these in Boyada if your bored enought)

A Dnc helping to cure and a Rdm trying to DD is like not compareable lol.

Dnc can do ok. Rdm can't do ok except maybe in Atma Zones.

[Asymptotic]

It's not really a challenge. VT-IT+ hit you less than half the time, or you're gearing poorly.

WoE is barely an event and you might as well not go if you're not a Summoner, unless you want to spend most of the time weakened.

And it is comparable. Just like you should have brought a real melee instead of a RDM, if you needed heals, you should have brought a mage. There's just no need for DNC to help heal.

Yes, you can do it (albeit, mediocrely) just like a RDM can melee (mediocrely). Just because you want to do something doesn't make it useful.

Additionally, mages just don't need help. Any situation where they're struggling to keep up, you'd be better off tossing a BRD,COR, or additional mage, instead of a DNC.

[Eri]

WoE is barely an event and you might as well not go if you're not a Summoner, unless you want to spend most of the time weakened.


Thats so wrong. The Event had so so many updates and gets more. Only because its 'to hard' for many NA Players its not bad. Also most of the time now (except #17)
Smns are Horrible Tp feed. Its absolutely doable the standart setup and its a lot of fun. (Yes i am Smn and say that STILL.)




Yes, you can do it (albeit, mediocrely) just like a RDM can melee (mediocrely). Just because you want to do something doesn't make it useful.



Well i had a LOT Voidwatch runs where the Tank was in the Red and only survived because of Dnc cures. I nerver had any Event where a meele rdm saved the day.



Additionally, mages just don't need help. Any situation where they're struggling to keep up, you'd be better off tossing a BRD,COR, or additional mage, instead of a DNC.

Silencega. Say Echodrops..... i will tell you that the 50% of the mages dont have any.

Or are so slow that the Tanks die.

If are going for perfect situations Yes DNC will not have to heal a lot. BUT perfect situations are Rare. Be realistic.

[Asymptotic]

Thats so wrong. The Event had so so many updates and gets more. Only because its 'to hard' for many NA Players its not bad. Also most of the time now (except #17)
Smns are Horrible Tp feed. Its absolutely doable the standart setup and its a lot of fun. (Yes i am Smn and say that STILL.)

WoE isn't hard. It's just annoying and the chance of getting anything good is so low that there's no motivation for anyone to do it. The reason WoE gets so many updates is because it's a terribly designed event. The caturae WoE is even easier than the rest of them, because you only have to kill one mob, and a group of SMN do that with zero difficulty.


Well i had a LOT Voidwatch runs where the Tank was in the Red and only survived because of Dnc cures. I nerver had any Event where a meele rdm saved the day.

Tank? In Voidwatch?

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/545/OpoQQ.jpg

This is sign #1 that you're in a sub-par group.


Silencega. Say Echodrops..... i will tell you that the 50% of the mages dont have any.

Sign #2 that you are in a bad group.


Or are so slow that the Tanks die.

Sign #3 you're in a bad group.


If are going for perfect situations Yes DNC will not have to heal a lot.

Wrong. In a group, DNC only needs to heal in the worst of situations.


BUT perfect situations are Rare. Be realistic.
If decent parties are so rare in your eyes, I would suggest that you play with better people.


What's really going on here is that you WANT to play support DNC, so you're justifying its existence with situations that 1.) don't occur in a good group and 2.) claiming that the job is useful because "not all groups are good."

I will reiterate, if your backline is playing appropriately, there is absolutely no justification for a support Dancer. If your backline is not playing appropriately, kick them and get new mages.

[Asymptotic]

I nerver had any Event where a meele rdm saved the day.

Maybe that enspell II's elemental resistance reduction made that crucial enfeeble proc land? Ever think of that? That situation is about as likely (actually, probably more likely) as a "support, spot-healing" DNC who holds back on damage being more beneficial to an alliance than just bringing a different job.

[Byrth]

Smns are Horrible Tp feed. Its absolutely doable the standart setup and its a lot of fun. (Yes i am Smn and say that STILL.)

Blood Pacts give 0 TP, which means Summoners don't actually have to give TP at all. The fact that they leave their avatars on bosses (and subsequently feed TP - much slower than a Hasted melee) is just a byproduct of the fact that they need to leave their avatars on the boss as a tank.

[Asymptotic]

Also, you'd be surprised what Enspell II (combined with Threnodies or Ninjutsu)can do for your Extreme Wyvern Breath weakness targetting!


...and here I am, in the DNC forum, justifying RDM melee. This really is the official forums, isn't it?

[Eri]

Yea it is :P While were at that i persoally prefere to Pup for VW eat that lol.

If ppl allow XD

[Fupafighter]

Whats with WoE? :>
and if im pretty bored I go solo VT-IT+ just for the Challenge. (You and find these in Boyada if your bored enought)

A Dnc helping to cure and a Rdm trying to DD is like not compareable lol.

Dnc can do ok. Rdm can't do ok except maybe in Atma Zones.
Dnc is the only job that can drop excellent damage and take none in return. And if your DD's are dying so much that you need to cure spam them, 1. tell your samurai to tank with seigan if he has hate, 2. SAME FOR THE WARRIOR, 3. Mnks can tank just fiine if they have proper evasion set...they have B+ in it. If your doing a NM in abyssea like orthrus and relying on a dnc to cure, your just fail. If your in VW and your DD are taking that much damage, your DD fail. Fanatics, potions....Only reason whm are really needed is for the stona, cursna, and curaga. You can wish they will make dnc almighty, but if your not utilizing it as a heavy DD, then your doing it wrong. Yes, samurai and warrior do more damage, but can they survive the way a dancer can in anyway? no...that's what makes them balanced. They have THEIR uses.

[Asymptotic]

I wouldn't expect any DD to survive very long in VW without Fanatics. That's because I expect they will all have Berserk and Aggressor (or DRK's equivalents) up full-time.

This includes DNC.

[FrankReynolds]

Monk evasion tank ftw

[Asymptotic]

MNK should also have Berserk up. :|