Relic Weapon Skills at Level 99

[Unleashhell]

I'm looking for some feedback from relic weapon holders about your thoughts as to what adjustments should be made, especially to your relic weapon you hold. This is not a thread for Empyrean weapon holders nor do we need Emp Weapon feedback. Making comparisons if you hold a Relic AND an Empyrean (or mythic) is fine for information gathering. As an Excalibur (and Almace) holder the weapon skill need a much greater boost. Personally I would like to see the following adjustments on relic weapons and would like other relic weapon holders feedback on your specific weapon. We are close to level 99 and if we can make any last changes happen we need it to be done now.

Weapon skill modifiers need to be raised slightly.

Weapon skills should be dependent on TP modifiers. 100TP = 3.0, 200TP = 3.25 , and 300TP = 3.50 with a chance of Critical Hit, (100TP 25% - 200TP 35% - and 300TP 45%)

I believe this will help equal relic weapon skills to closer to the empyrean / mythic counterparts.

Please stay on topic thanks.

[SpankWustler]

It would be neat if they gained a +25% damage bonus from a level 95 Relic Weapon.

[Greatguardian]

Most of the Relic WS just need to either be replaced or completely rewritten if they want to stay competitive, really. Even the aftermath on a lot of Relics is garbage (Shock spikes? Really?). Spharai users are best off just spamming Asuran Fists, for example.

I was hoping that the new Merit WS would be a saving grace for Relic holders, but recent testing is not too optimistic about pretty much anything aside from Mjollnir, Mandau, and Amanomurokumo for melees. It will be interesting to see what they try to do with Relics at 99. Hopefully it's not just another flat WSDmg boost, as that would hardly put a dent in the absolute crapgasm that is most of the Relic WS.

[SpankWustler]

Most of the Relic WS just need to either be replaced or completely rewritten if they want to stay competitive, really. Even the aftermath on a lot of Relics is garbage (Shock spikes? Really?). Spharai users are best off just spamming Asuran Fists, for example.

I was hoping that the new Merit WS would be a saving grace for Relic holders, but recent testing is not too optimistic about pretty much anything aside from Mjollnir, Mandau, and Amanomurokumo for melees. It will be interesting to see what they try to do with Relics at 99. Hopefully it's not just another flat WSDmg boost, as that would hardly put a dent in the absolute crapgasm that is most of the Relic WS.

It would be really nice if they set aside some time to make Relic weaponskills make sense, but the Development Bros seem more in the business of making things not make sense. They seem particularly reticent to remove weird or useless things and replace them with useful things, presumably out of misplaced concern that some idiot would miss the useless thing.

The +25% damage helps the Relic weaponskills that have always been useful remain somewhat useful. It would be great if the Development Bros had a revelation and gave the weaponskills with idiotic modifiers and ridiculous aftermaths new effects, but I suspect they'll keep on keeping on with split MND/AGI modifiers and Shock Spikes.

I am convinced they like things that don't make sense.

[Chriscoffey]

Most of the Relic WS just need to either be replaced or completely rewritten if they want to stay competitive, really. Even the aftermath on a lot of Relics is garbage (Shock spikes? Really?). Spharai users are best off just spamming Asuran Fists, for example.

I was hoping that the new Merit WS would be a saving grace for Relic holders, but recent testing is not too optimistic about pretty much anything aside from Mjollnir, Mandau, and Amanomurokumo for melees. It will be interesting to see what they try to do with Relics at 99. Hopefully it's not just another flat WSDmg boost, as that would hardly put a dent in the absolute crapgasm that is most of the Relic WS.
Pretty much what you said but like previous something with adjusted modifiers and fTP/critical factors.

[Atomic_Skull]

Delete the 25% WS damage bonus and just make them deal automatic critical damage like True Strike and deal the number of hits indicated by their animations. A few like Bow, Gun and Sword would have to have their animations adjusted to be more than 1 hit but for the most part 1H WS would all be 4 hits and 2H WS would all be 2 hits. Relic weapons should also ignore 50% DEF.




I was hoping that the new Merit WS would be a saving grace for Relic holders, but recent testing is not too optimistic about pretty much anything aside from Mjollnir, Mandau, and Amanomurokumo for melees.

Already tested it and Extenterator isn't as good as Mercy Stroke. Not to mention that the "afterglow" effect in lvl 99 relics probably requires you to use the relic WS.

[Kriegsgott]

Higher dmg proc or proc more often under the effect of Aftermath

[Frost]

I'll bite.

As a weapon I feel they should get the following:

+10% - +15% to all weaponskills.
40+ Skill (Instead of either +attack or +accuracy)
+75 or +80 Modifier instead of +60. (+80 so other weapons with dual mods can do 40/40)

For Amanomurakumo specifically:

Aftermath:
Enough Store TP to drop a hit on melee swings, or broaden gear choices a bit more. +40 - +50 Store TP would drop a hit on a 5 hit, +20ish should open up some gear choices. (It's only +7 Store TP at the moment... that's kinda bull)

Tachi: Kaiten:
Kaiten is an exceptional weaponskill.... If you're fighting "level 0.5" rabbits in West Ronfaure... If anything has a defense over 10, it gets destroyed by the weaponskills you get for just leveling Sam... The bonus at 90 helped a little... But it really needs an "Ignores Defense" or "Attack Bonus", depending on whatever nomenclature you decide to use, in order to be completely useful.

The one thing that really stood out on Kaiten was it's position on the skillchain chart. It let only relic Sams have access to all four houses of the L2 chart. Now "Tachi: Merit" takes that away... I'd be much happier if Tachi: Shoha had Gravitation personally; giving a stronger weaponskill than Tachi: Rana. But that's just me.

I am very glad they finally made Amanomurakumo tip it's D.rank for once... It was always one under on all the other upgrades.

So in short:

Amanomurakumo (99):
(Great Katana) All Races
DMG: 135 Delay: 437 Great Katana Skill +40
"Tachi: Kaiten"
Additional effect: Weakens attacks

Kaiten:
Light/Fragmentation
fTP: 4.0
Modifier: 80% Strength.
100% Attack Bonus (Same as Tachi: Gekko)

[Kitkat]

The weaponskills are significantly lacking for a variety of reasons. The most noteworthy is they have no TP modifiers. Getting over 100% tp does nothing but increase the duration of aftermath, yet every other WS out there has some type of TP modifier. From Damage varies by TP, Crit chance varies by tp, Defense ignored varies by tp, Accuracy varies by TP, Random enfeeble duration varies by TP.......none of the relic WS have this.

All we have going for us is 60% modifiers and a somewhat high multiplier coupled with a +25% boost tacked on at the end once the weapon is level 90. Other WS meant to be end-all-be-all WS get Aftermath duration plus more incentive to have more TP by getting TP modifiers.

[Taint2]

Damage that scales with TP would be a nice start, but yes the WSs in general do not compete with their Emp counters and sometimes with normal WSs.

I like the idea of Great Katana Skill +40 since it would effect acc and att and not just one or the other.

I really hope Afterglow is not just AM for the party. I'm not going to make gear sets just because someone has Kaiten AM on me, same goes with the haste from Cata. You also have the issue with AMs over writing each other.

[Unleashhell]

We should be able to merit any weapon skill instead of just these new ones. I don't see why they are going to implement meriting one weapon skill and not allow us to merit previous weapon skills of the same weapon. At least if we can merit any weapon skill it would be a nice incentive. Better yet merit the entire group of weapon skills at once. Say 2% per upgrade for all sword weapon skills (or w/e weapon you use for your main job) as an example.

Having 2% per upgrade and maxing at 5 upgrades will give a 10% damage increase to all the weapons skills in that category. Meriting a weapon skill based off skill level imo isn't the way to go and SE should rethink what they are doing. We should be able to merit any weapon skill we choose or merit the entire group as a whole. Sorta off topic but this would include relic weapon skills.

[Vizardx]

Id say:
Make aftermath effect a fixed duration and allow TP to enhance other features such as crit chance or damage delt etc.

Also take a note from the merited Weaponskills and give them 100% stat mods and make them the number of hits as indicated by their animations.

Maybe they could add 2 or more trials to accomplish this.

[Cljader1]

Well I have Caladbolg, Redemption and Apoc for my Drk, and my apoc is by far the most damaging weapon mainly because of the hidden effect boost at lvl 95 double damage kicks in 20% of the time with the aftermath being haste further increase my DPS. Also I wear full drk AF3, which gives a %5 chance of double damage which is separate and independent of a relic's hidden effect, this allows me to get a small chance at quad damage which is really nice. However the lvl 99 upgrade should increase the hidden effect and aftermath effect by a every sizable boost, if SE really want to reward relic holders they will boost the hidden effect, aftermath, and weaponskill on a lvl 99 relic.

[Atomic_Skull]

Also remove the restriction on the extra damage proc not taking effect on the second or third hit of double/triple attack.

[macross]

Relic weapons to 95 are about the same difficulty as empys to 95. Why do they need such crazy boosts? Relic holders act like it's super hard to make a relic or something...
Perhaps if 99 relic and empy are really hard trials then they deserve such buffs.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Relic weapons to 95 are about the same difficulty as empys to 95. Why do they need such crazy boosts? Relic holders act like it's super hard to make a relic or something...
Perhaps if 99 relic and empy are really hard trials then they deserve such buffs.

Maybe the trial stage, but getting the actual weapon is no where near as easy to get as Emp's, the hardest stage for them was the most recent one.

50 items != 1000+ 100s

[macross]

Doesn't matter how long it took to get there, what matters is the final stage, 95, or soon to be 99. The difficulty in reaching those is comparable, why does relic need to be stronger than empy when both are just as hard to do.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Doesn't matter how long it took to get there, what matters is the final stage, 95, or soon to be 99. The difficulty in reaching those is comparable, why does relic need to be stronger than empy when both are just as hard to do.

They shouldn't, trial wise they should be equal. Strength wise relics should naturally be stronger from 75 onwards, with Emps being like the little brother of 'em with Mythic's being Big Bro.

Relics are more difficult to obtain, therefore they SHOULD be better.

[macross]

There are, by far, more 95 relics than there are 95 empys. Yet 95 relics should be better, when getting them to 95 is alot easier. We dunno what's in store for 99, but if they are equally challenging, there's no reason relics should be better.

Relics are easy to obtain these days. What you're saying is salvage armor should be better than empy +2, because salvage gear was so hard back then vs now.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

There are, by far, more 95 relics than there are 95 empys. Yet 95 relics should be better, when getting them to 95 is alot easier. We dunno what's in store for 99, but if they are equally challenging, there's no reason relics should be better.

Relics are easy to obtain these days. What you're saying is salvage armor should be better than empy +2, because salvage gear was so hard back then vs now.

Ease is irrelevant, even doing it everyday you wont finish it that soon. Whereas Emp's you can do in one day, or even one stage per day which is impossible to do for Relics unless you buy Currency, and even then you need to wait every conquest.

Woopty-doo on level 95, I really couldn't care less about one stage of a trial. So the easiest Weapon has a decently challenged trial now, it took long enough. Now they have a trial equal to One stage of a relic weapon.

Here is the reasoning why on that:

1. Empy WS' are OP and easy as hell to obtain.
2. Relics took much more items to create even the lvl. 75 stage so it makes sense the trials will be easier.

That said, you yourself only has an Empy so of course you don't want something you might have to work hard to obtain to become better than your weapon.

What you're saying is Relics should be equally as hard to do the one (lvl.95) trial as a weapon that takes one day to build to 85 when even building the relic weapon to be usable takes so much more time. No chance!

[Kitkat]

There are, by far, more 95 relics than there are 95 empys. Yet 95 relics should be better, when getting them to 95 is alot easier. We dunno what's in store for 99, but if they are equally challenging, there's no reason relics should be better.

Relics are easy to obtain these days. What you're saying is salvage armor should be better than empy +2, because salvage gear was so hard back then vs now.

I seriously hope you are joking. There are "by far, more relics than emps" is so inaccurate it isn't even funny. Try going here (http://www.ffxiah.com/relics/empyrean) and then check here (http://www.ffxiah.com/relics) and cross reference the numbers. Emps have been available for a far shorter time than relics and there are nearly 3 times as many of them to date. I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, but next time come with sources before you flat out lie about it.

And for those who don't want to click the links, there is 10,770 known emp weapons compared to 3,331 known relic weapons. If Relic is "so easy and fast" to get then why does Emp, which has only been out 1/7th the amount of time, out number it nearly triple fold?

Another thing, why do Emp holders come in and trash the topic saying relics are "where they should be" when Emps do almost 2 times the overall damage both from WS and aftermath in most cases. Relic holders just want their WS to scale like they should be and have appropriate TP modifiers to remain competitive.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I seriously hope you are joking. There are "by far, more relics than emps" is so inaccurate it isn't even funny. Try going here (http://www.ffxiah.com/relics/empyrean) and then check here (http://www.ffxiah.com/relics) and cross reference the numbers. Emps have been available for a far shorter time than relics and there are nearly 10 times as many of them to date. I'm not sure where you are getting your info from, but next time come with sources before you flat out lie about it.

They're being pedantic with saying specifically level 95, due to Emp's Heavy Metal Plates requirement.

[Kitkat]

Oh dear, one trial ~rolls eyes~ Give me a break. They want to compare one trial difference yet they played the same cards when relic holders complained with the same points I just brought up. One trial is not a fair comparison, nor is it truely comparative considering the fact that Relics have to go through multiple upgrades after being made just to be a ~2/3 as strong in typical usage settings.

[macross]

I said lvl 95 empy vs lvl 95 relic. How many 95 empy have you seen? Where is your 95 if empy are so easy? How many 99 relics will there be vs 99 empys I wonder hrm?

As for only having a 95 empy and no relic, my relic bow will be completed on sunday, and yes it was very easy to make. Nothing hard about it cept having to wait 10 days for no reason cept for roleplaying aspects. All you have to simply do is buy currency and wait 10 days, kill a couple easy nm, and bam relic. There is nothing hard about it. I can make one relic every 30 days If I wanted too, and all it would take is gil. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing, difficult about that.

You cannot do an empy in a day. Takes many NM trials you have to do before you even get to the farming stage. Again, if you have 100m gils, you can buy your relic and finish it to 75 in 11 days(bogus wait time) as well, doing 3 dynamis for the NM stages in between those windows.

I'd like to see your cross referenced sources comparing # of 95 relics to 95 empys, then see who is lying or making stuff up. As I said, doesn't matter how easy the pre-trials are, what matters is the final weapon, 95 atm, or 99 which is coming soon. One weapon is harder to begin but easier to upgrade (relic) vs easier to being, harder to upgrade(empy).

[Kitkat]

You want to compare 1 trial, one single trial, just because it takes time to maybe give it +1weapon rank and +2 stat? I can tell you now that I can use a 95 relic and fight alongside the same weapon type Emp at 85 and not hope to contend WS to WS let alone with the aftermath compared to my OTD hidden (@~12% activation). A WoE+2 can out WS my relic, and that is the lesser version of the weapon.

No matter how you look at it the WS of Relics are weaker than they should be because they are missing the ability to scale in damage and have absolutely no TP modifiers. The 25% boost at 90 still only leaves it at 2/3 the strength. And all you want to do is come in here and say that one trial upgrade is comparison enough for the difference? What a joke.

[macross]

One trial is very important...
What was better? your lvl 75 relic, or your lvl 80 empy?
what was better? your lvl 80 relic, or your lvl 80 empy?
Each stage matters, each trial matters.
If lvl 99 is crazy hard for both weapons then they warrant upgrades. But for all you know, 99 relic can be super easy, while 99 empy can be another collect expensive items again. We don't know atm.

My point is, I'm sick and tired of seeing relic holders think they are so special for having a relic. It was the best for the longest time, but things change, gear changes, move on. If something is better, stop whining about it and make the better weapon. You got your 95 relic, yet you say you can make an empy in day. Thus wtfux aren't you making a 85 empy in a day if it's so much better than your 95 relic? Why not make the woe+2 if its so much easier yet is better. Why did you even upgrade your relic to 95? once you saw empy 85 are better? Should have spent that time making the empy instead, and putting relic in storage.

I spent millions making my salvage armor, but I don't complain AF3 blows it all away. I won't complain when Nyzul +5 blows away all the gear I've collected up to this point either. I will just upgrade, as every one who plays a mmo should be doing.

[Greatguardian]

99 Relics and 99 Emps will be about comparable in actual difficulty to make.

Hell, 99 Emps will be harder because it actually requires legwork rather than hurr durr fishing for a month.

The problem isn't 99 relics losing to 99 emps, as they should be fairly equitable. The issue is 85 Emps being too close in power to 99 Relics and 99 Emps. In that case, just buff all level 99 Ultimate weapons and keep them about par - or at least situationally useful.

[macross]

We won't know how 99' will be, we still dunno what afterglow is. Just watch afterglow will be uber, and blow away 85 empys, but relic holders will still complain if it's a difficult trial.

Bravura lets you tank better, ukko dps better
yoichi low enmity, gandiva more dmg
relics got their strengths too, it's not all about dmg you do.
gkts are pretty similar, so are daggers.

Anyhow if the 85 version of the weapon is stronger, why don't you have it. It only takes 1 day to make.

If they all do the same damage at 99, then what exactly was the point in putting empys in? Should they make bravura do the same damage as ukon, while keeping it's tanking properties? Should yoichi keep its low enmity, but do the dps as a gandiva? You can't have the best of both worlds all wrapped up into one weapon, especially given how easy it is to make relics these days.

Also empy are only usable on one job, where relics multi can use, that's gotta count for someting as well.

[Vizardx]

im calling it now, after glow will do just that, make ur weapon glow during aftermath nothing more. This is SE we are talking about.

[newmonkey]

Shut up Marcoss just because you mugged it and bought all the heavy metal plates and more than likely they are going to rain down after the next update.

Also take your own advice sir no one knows what the 99 trial items are however we do know that it's 500 of one item for empy and 1500 for relic

[Brolic]

We won't know how 99' will be, we still dunno what afterglow is. Just watch afterglow will be uber, and blow away 85 empys, but relic holders will still complain if it's a difficult trial.

Bravura lets you tank better, ukko dps better
yoichi low enmity, gandiva more dmg
relics got their strengths too, it's not all about dmg you do.
gkts are pretty similar, so are daggers.

Anyhow if the 85 version of the weapon is stronger, why don't you have it. It only takes 1 day to make.

If they all do the same damage at 99, then what exactly was the point in putting empys in? Should they make bravura do the same damage as ukon, while keeping it's tanking properties? Should yoichi keep its low enmity, but do the dps as a gandiva? You can't have the best of both worlds all wrapped up into one weapon, especially given how easy it is to make relics these days.

Also empy are only usable on one job, where relics multi can use, that's gotta count for someting as well.
h2h
sword
greatsword
dagger
axe
staff

wut?

[Kitkat]

You know macross, as much fun as it is to see you bring up points that are already in the works to change, thus making them self defeating, this topic isn't about what you are turning it into.

The point of the topic is to show the faults of relics in comparison to other weapons:

Currently, various stats of the weapons do not work in offhand. While update to the test server shows that they are possibly considering allowing this, the additional effects still don't work. Every other weapon you can equip works in both main and offhand. TP bonus, Latent effects, additional effects already similar to relic effects, they all work in offhand.

Hidden effects can't work on double/triple/quadruple attacks, but ODD can work on all hits of that weapon. While the increase in proc% at 95 was welcomed, it doesn't make sense that other weapons able to increase damage by 2~4x can work on all hits, but not a hidden effect.

Every single non-relic WS has an additional TP modifier attached to the amount of TP used. Currently, the only thing holding TP does for a Relic WS is increase duration of aftermath. Both Emp and Mythic WS have some form of TP modifier that changes the WS while also getting an Aftermath duration increase (or in mythics case different type of aftermath). The 25% boost the WS received at 90 is unsubstantial when the WS still has no ability to scale while all others do.

Relic animations are deceiving by some showing multiple hits (dagger, polearm, katana, axe, club) when they are only 1 hit. The idea behind this was that the WS must be too strong to make it true multi-hit. Emp effectively nullifies this by having the same Stat% modifiers, TP modifiers, and still performing multiple hits.

The funny thing is, even before Emp weapons existed, a lot of these key points were common questions relic users always questioned about, but had no real way to voice it to those with contact to the Dev team in order to get answers. These are what relic holders want to know. If there is a substantial reason behind why all of the above is true on Relic, but isn't on all other sources....why can't it be changed. They have already broken what ever rules they put up when the weapons were originally made, now the users just want it to apply evenly rather than feel as though they are getting nothing but empty promises from developers.

[scaevola]

They're being pedantic with saying specifically level 95, due to Emp's Heavy Metal Plates requirement.

The thread is about balancing the two types of weapons at 99. Unless you find a way to get an Empyrean to level 99 without trading in 1500 HMPs, it's as relevant as any other stage.

Relics have been around longer than Emps, of course, but level 95 Relics have been around the exact same amount of time, and I have zero problems believing there are more of them because


wait for it


completing a level 95 Relic is easier than completing a level 95 Empyrean.

[Runespider]

Apoc.

Make the haste aftermath counted as it's own type of haste or at least magic haste, putting it as gear haste in a time when capping gear haste is so easy ruins its main claim to fame.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

The thread is about balancing the two types of weapons at 99. Unless you find a way to get an Empyrean to level 99 without trading in 1500 HMPs, it's as relevant as any other stage.

Relics have been around longer than Emps, of course, but level 95 Relics have been around the exact same amount of time, and I have zero problems believing there are more of them because


wait for it


completing a level 95 Relic is easier than completing a level 95 Empyrean.

In the same way completing a level 90 Empyrean is easier than completing a level 75 relic.



Apoc.

Make the haste aftermath counted as it's own type of haste or at least magic haste, putting it as gear haste in a time when capping gear haste is so easy ruins its main claim to fame.

Magic is the only way it'd work, with Magic, gear and JA haste (which DRK caps for the most part of a battle) reach the cap on Haste fullstop, seeing as how the Haste cap won't be raised Magic is the way to go.

[detlef]

In the same way completing a level 90 Empyrean is easier than completing a level 75 relic.Level 90 doesn't matter anymore when there's level 95 and soon to be 99 in the game. Is there even a reason to compare level 80 relic to level 80 empyrean?

Also, you simply can't ignore the level 95 empyrean trial. Sure the 95 isn't much of an upgrade over the 90 but if you want the 99 you can't avoid heavy metal plates. At level 99 we will see which weapons are the best and can finally determine which are worth the cost/effort.

[scaevola]

If your problem is that the 85 Empyreans (and perhaps even the 90s) are too easy to get, then maybe you'll agree with me when I say the standard of power for the new Merit Weaponskills ought to be Tachi: Shoha, which makes Fudo redundant.

[Unleashhell]

Relic weapons to 95 are about the same difficulty as empys to 95. Why do they need such crazy boosts? Relic holders act like it's super hard to make a relic or something...
Perhaps if 99 relic and empy are really hard trials then they deserve such buffs.

Why derail the thread? This isn't about difficulty in obtaining a relic weapon. Its about the relic weapon skills. As stated in my OP plz if you do not have a relic or have some kind of information to provide that adds to the conversation plz find another forum.

[Unleashhell]

Apoc.

Make the haste aftermath counted as it's own type of haste or at least magic haste, putting it as gear haste in a time when capping gear haste is so easy ruins its main claim to fame.


Thank you for staying on topic.

[Unleashhell]

One thing I would also like to add is that the update to 99 is right around the corner and if anything we can provide even has the slightest chance of getting back to the development team, I would rather they address this issue BEFORE the update rather then do nothing at all and give the usual "we will get around to it". IMO there is way too much atm that needs to be addressed in the game before they push everyone to 99. This issue is no different then the 100's of other issues that should be addressed BEFORE the next update. This update is coming too soon imo, but since we cannot stop it from happening we need information NOW not later.

[Atomic_Skull]

Relic weapons to 95 are about the same difficulty as empys to 95. Why do they need such crazy boosts? Relic holders act like it's super hard to make a relic or something...
Perhaps if 99 relic and empy are really hard trials then they deserve such buffs.

Well the Empyrean lvl 99 trial asks for 500 or something and the Relic trial asks for 1000 of something.

Watch it be 100's

[macross]

I beg to differ about 75 relic harder than 90 empy. I'd like to see you solo a 90 empy, vs soloing a 75 relic. I assure you the 75 relic will be done first. 75 bravura solo, 2-3 months easy with a bst/dnc. 90 ukon solo? go try and see how long that takes you and how much curor you spend brewing. Relic only takes that long because you can only do it 2 hours a day. IF you could farm as much as you wanted, it would be no contest.

Just saying it's unrealistic to ask for such crazy boosts to a weapon that's easy to make. It's on topic. Stop thinking relic is so hard anymore and deserves to do the highest damage. If you want the best damage, then make the 'easy' empy. I'm sure you don't go around wearing salvage armor that took you many months to make and cost you millions of gil, asking for it to be upgraded. You are likely wearing empy armor. yes, the easy to make 'empy' armor.

You guys want relics to do the highest dps, have the best mods, just cause you think they are harder to make. Who wouldn't want their bravura to outdps an ukon, while having the bravura's tanking properities along with the debufs. Seriously think about what you are asking lol.

[newmonkey]

85 empys are a joke to make you know and i know it Macross and the fact reamins 85 ukon still destorys a 95 bravura and this shouldn't be happening.

Each and every update empys get easier and easier to make at 95 now none of the mobs are difficult ive made 10 ukons over the last few months don't even pretend that these are in anyway hard to make, why should empys be doing more dps than relics, most of the relic aftermaths are junk bar a few, the ws do not come close to the empyrean weapon skills in most cases.

Relics still need boosting to be able to keep up dps wise with empys at 99 and lets not forget we have yet to see the 99 trial items but we do know you need double of whatever it is for relics, you're just butthurt you spent a shed load of gil on your 95 when more than likely they are going to increase the heavy plate drop rate.

So i repeat relics seeminly have a harder final trial than your beloved empyrean weapon, so lets all just wait and see what these items are before we continue this which weapons is harder to make sillyness. Mythics are by far the hardest anyways.

Your point about salvage gear in invalid as pretty soon its going to be agumentable or upgraded to +2 whatever.

[Unleashhell]

I beg to differ about 75 relic harder than 90 empy. I'd like to see you solo a 90 empy, vs soloing a 75 relic. I assure you the 75 relic will be done first. 75 bravura solo, 2-3 months easy with a bst/dnc. 90 ukon solo? go try and see how long that takes you and how much curor you spend brewing. Relic only takes that long because you can only do it 2 hours a day. IF you could farm as much as you wanted, it would be no contest.

Just saying it's unrealistic to ask for such crazy boosts to a weapon that's easy to make. It's on topic. Stop thinking relic is so hard anymore and deserves to do the highest damage. If you want the best damage, then make the 'easy' empy. I'm sure you don't go around wearing salvage armor that took you many months to make and cost you millions of gil, asking for it to be upgraded. You are likely wearing empy armor. yes, the easy to make 'empy' armor.

You guys want relics to do the highest dps, have the best mods, just cause you think they are harder to make. Who wouldn't want their bravura to outdps an ukon, while having the bravura's tanking properities along with the debufs. Seriously think about what you are asking lol.

Are you not reading what people are saying or what? We are asking that RELIC WEAPONSKILLS be on par with EMPYREAN WEAPONSKILLS... THIS IS NOT ABOUT HOW EASY THEY ARE TO MAKE.

[Greatguardian]

Are you not reading what people are saying or what? We are asking that RELIC WEAPONSKILLS be on par with EMPYREAN WEAPONSKILLS... THIS IS NOT ABOUT HOW EASY THEY ARE TO MAKE.

You're missing the context. It's a legitimate tangent sparked by other players asserting that Relics should be stronger than Empyreans (not equivalent to) because they were more difficult to make. He is simply denouncing that assertion, as it is false in the context of level 99 weapons.

Relic WS need a boost. Sure. No one's saying they don't. It's simply being pointed out that they don't innately deserve to be the strongest weapons in the game bar none because of their "difficulty", which is fairly hollow in and of itself. They should be strong. They should be situationally viable alternatives to Empyreans at 99. Neither should really blow the other out of the water. Leave that to Mythics.

[Kitkat]

I beg to differ about 75 relic harder than 90 empy. I'd like to see you solo a 90 empy, vs soloing a 75 relic. I assure you the 75 relic will be done first. 75 bravura solo, 2-3 months easy with a bst/dnc. 90 ukon solo? go try and see how long that takes you and how much curor you spend brewing. Relic only takes that long because you can only do it 2 hours a day. IF you could farm as much as you wanted, it would be no contest.

You're arguing semantics while missing the point. Take your argument elsewhere.


Just saying it's unrealistic to ask for such crazy boosts to a weapon that's easy to make. It's on topic. Stop thinking relic is so hard anymore and deserves to do the highest damage. If you want the best damage, then make the 'easy' empy. I'm sure you don't go around wearing salvage armor that took you many months to make and cost you millions of gil, asking for it to be upgraded. You are likely wearing empy armor. yes, the easy to make 'empy' armor.

Still arguing semantics, especially when upgrades to nyzul and salvage armors are already in the works. There is no "crazy boost" being talked about. These are request to have the properties of the weapons re-coded to act like all the other weapons do in the game. Asking that a WS that has a 60% stat mod and 3.0 ftp and a lazily tacked on 25% boost to WS damage instead of reworking the weapons to function normally isn't a "crazy boost." Hidden proc would still be lower than ODD aftermath, but would at least have a chance to proc on any strike from that weapon. Asking that the additional effect/visible stats to work in offhand is not different than any of the emps, TOM, or rare/ex weapons working in offhand. You've clearly misread the whole topic if you think this is going to make them "strongest in the game" when it is only asking for them to be treated equally to every other weapon available.


You guys want relics to do the highest dps, have the best mods, just cause you think they are harder to make. Who wouldn't want their bravura to outdps an ukon, while having the bravura's tanking properities along with the debufs. Seriously think about what you are asking lol.

I don't know where you are coming from, but all the posts I've read related to this topic has nothing to do with making them the strongest. It is asking from SE to re-code and make them equally able to perform as other Weapons/Weaponskills. The way they are now is so different from every other weapon/weaponskill that it actually hurts the weapon more than it makes it even remotely useful. Most of these proposed changes wouldn't make any of the weapons out perform emp, but it would make them comparable to them while still remaining balanced.

[macross]

Why shouldn't difficulty be a factor in the power of a weapon?
People are under the false notion that relics are extremely hard to make. I'm just trying to point out that it is not. Relic are actually the easiest to make atm. They might take longer, but that is only due to you only being able to farm dynamis 2 hours a day. If you could farm dynamis 12 hours a day, you could finish a relic in 5 days no problem.

Relic ws do not need to be on par with empys. Empys are for pure dps, nothing else. Relics have additional properties empys do not have. What you are asking for is akin to asking blm to be able to melee and dd like a warrior, cause it was hard for you to lvl your blm back in the day. Each weapon has its strengths. Relics str just isn't its dps. Go make your 85 empys if you feel they are stronger. They are EASY no???

The salvage armor was an example. You don't complain it sucks now and you wasted your time, you went out and got the empy armor, which is way better way easier.

I wouldnt' be butt hurt at all if they made plates drop more. I made it cause I had the spare gil, and that ukon is > bravura dps wise, and that you need 95 to get to 99. If you get your wish and bravura becomes the best, then for sure I will make one as well and not whine about how empy 99 sucks.

[Unleashhell]

You're missing the context. It's a legitimate tangent sparked by other players asserting that Relics should be stronger than Empyreans (not equivalent to) because they were more difficult to make. He is simply denouncing that assertion, as it is false in the context of level 99 weapons.

Relic WS need a boost. Sure. No one's saying they don't. It's simply being pointed out that they don't innately deserve to be the strongest weapons in the game bar none because of their "difficulty", which is fairly hollow in and of itself. They should be strong. They should be situationally viable alternatives to Empyreans at 99. Neither should really blow the other out of the water. Leave that to Mythics.

Nobody is saying they should be the best. They should be on par with Empyreans. Only he was the one to bring up how easy they are to make. Nobody cares how easy they are to make. My original post has to do with Relic WS boost and NOTHING else.

[Greatguardian]

Nobody is saying they should be the best. They should be on par with Empyreans. Only he was the one to bring up how easy they are to make. Nobody cares how easy they are to make. My original post has to do with Relic WS boost and NOTHING else.


They shouldn't, trial wise they should be equal. Strength wise relics should naturally be stronger from 75 onwards, with Emps being like the little brother of 'em with Mythic's being Big Bro.

Relics are more difficult to obtain, therefore they SHOULD be better.


Looks like I mixed up the chicken and the egg, but the context stands. I know your posts are reasonable, OP. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean the rest of the thread is equally reasonable.

[newmonkey]

Macross you keep rattling on about bravura, so tell me why amano doesn't deserve to keep up with massa dps wise ? That 7 store tp aftermath is laughable.

Lots of relics have stupid aftermaths so again your point about dps is invalid, emys are a complete joke to make to 85 i've got 6 btw, and it is 85 were they get good aftermath and the weapon skill you are only acting like this because rather foolishly you forked out 100 mil on your 95 upgrade instead of waiting till this coming update lol.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Amano overtakes Masamune when accuracy is an issue and Sam doesn't overtp alot.

Then hasszanshin update came.

Save TP buffs/being able to open with 300 TP doesn't help amano either.

And nor does the constant TP mod.

[Kitkat]

Why shouldn't difficulty be a factor in the power of a weapon?
People are under the false notion that relics are extremely hard to make. I'm just trying to point out that it is not. Relic are actually the easiest to make atm. They might take longer, but that is only due to you only being able to farm dynamis 2 hours a day. If you could farm dynamis 12 hours a day, you could finish a relic in 5 days no problem.

I still find this statement ironic. Before 95, if a relic user complained about difficulty they were told to make an emp, now the emp users are complaining cause one trail caused them to return to old school mechanics. Now they "deserve" to be the only pure DD weapon. Hey, if you could spend all that gil making a bow, what is the difference in spending it to finish your 95 emp? And honestly, if you don't have any friends to help you make either of these weapons then that is your own fault. Your "Solo this, solo that" argument is about as strong as saying this isn't an MMO.

Not a substantial argumentative point. Semantics are only quantifiers in a weak argument. You want to use the scope of 1 trial that can be just as easily compared to the currency gathering of a relic and call it "Hard" and "deserving" but at the same time turn around and use it against the very thing you are arguing about. Do try to think your points through. The amount of gil you spend is not a vailid argument either as that is dependent on the economy which can change very easily based on supply/demand. Just as you people use the excuse that the very same thing doesn't make mythics hard either, this is not "hard" under that very same principle.


Relic ws do not need to be on par with empys. Empys are for pure dps, nothing else. Relics have additional properties empys do not have. What you are asking for is akin to asking blm to be able to melee and dd like a warrior, cause it was hard for you to lvl your blm back in the day. Each weapon has its strengths. Relics str just isn't its dps. Go make your 85 empys if you feel they are stronger. They are EASY no???

This...I don't even know how you are coming up with this. The initial build of the weapons were to be "the weapon" by making the weapon and the ws so unique that allowing them to act the same way as all other WS was "unbalanced." Now they go back and rewrite all the rules by giving another line of weapons the same modifiers, the ability to be true multi-hit, and scaling TP mods and this is the new form of "balance." If anything asking for these changes on mythics would fit your comparison better.


The salvage armor was an example. You don't complain it sucks now and you wasted your time, you went out and got the empy armor, which is way better way easier.

You obviously don't play blu, rdm, or drk being as some of these pieces are still the best in their respective slots by situational standards. I can't comment on mardukes or usu as I don't play any of the jobs that use the sets.


I wouldnt' be butt hurt at all if they made plates drop more. I made it cause I had the spare gil, and that ukon is > bravura dps wise, and that you need 95 to get to 99. If you get your wish and bravura becomes the best, then for sure I will make one as well and not whine about how empy 99 sucks.

Honestly, what would there to be "butt hurt" over if they made plates drop more? I think you missed the point on this one. With your adamant enthusiasm in attempting to squash that relic needs any changes, I find this hard to believe. Why? You can't even look at why people complain about some of these aspects of the relics. Try looking at the pitfalls sometime and doing some math behind them. Hidden proc rates begin to become worse the more da/ta procs since it can only proc on first attack per round.

[Ragni]

Why shouldn't difficulty be a factor in the power of a weapon?
People are under the false notion that relics are extremely hard to make. I'm just trying to point out that it is not. Relic are actually the easiest to make atm. They might take longer, but that is only due to you only being able to farm dynamis 2 hours a day. If you could farm dynamis 12 hours a day, you could finish a relic in 5 days no problem.

Relic ws do not need to be on par with empys. Empys are for pure dps, nothing else. Relics have additional properties empys do not have. What you are asking for is akin to asking blm to be able to melee and dd like a warrior, cause it was hard for you to lvl your blm back in the day. Each weapon has its strengths. Relics str just isn't its dps. Go make your 85 empys if you feel they are stronger. They are EASY no???

The salvage armor was an example. You don't complain it sucks now and you wasted your time, you went out and got the empy armor, which is way better way easier.

I wouldnt' be butt hurt at all if they made plates drop more. I made it cause I had the spare gil, and that ukon is > bravura dps wise, and that you need 95 to get to 99. If you get your wish and bravura becomes the best, then for sure I will make one as well and not whine about how empy 99 sucks.

You are so wrong, Emps are easier to obtain. lvl 95 cost only 150-160m, just go solo dynamis and you can make 2m gils per day. Getting emp up to lvl 90 takes 2-3 days lvl 95 takes something like 30-40 days of dynamis if you only do dynamis for gils (you can also do cruor pts, salvage). Don't say please that relics are easier to do because its not true.

If you are talking about dsp, Annihilator is good example or even Apoc these two have better dps than their emp counterparts.

[macross]

I spent 0 gil on my bow... I farmed it 100%. Took me 40 days of farming, currently in the turning in stages, so Yes I know how easy it is to make a relic. If I wasn't limited to 2 hours per day, it would have taken around 5 days or less, depending on how long I farmed. The only cockblock is time. 2 hours a day x 40, 80 hours to make a relic. How many hours to make an empy? That 40 days is with 3 people btw. 3 people to farm your empy start to finish, how long would it take you.

You say you can make an emp to 90 in 2-3 days. I call bs once again. There's no way unless your days are 24 hour non stop gaming days. The trials before you even get the lvl 80 weapon, take more than 2-3 days. Heck one nm could take 8 hours to pop. 50 50 75 whatevers, 2-3 days with 18 people helping you, playing 24/7 maybe? Imagine if you could only do 2 hours a days of abyssea, that 2-3 days suddenly changes into weeks. Just like a relic! 18 people solo farming dynamis for you, how fast would you get a relic hrm? I bet just as fast or faster.

40 days of farming dynamis to make money to upgrade empy 90-95. That 40 days could make you a whole new relic. All a relic requires is 2 hours a day solo, or the gils to buy the currency. You can't solo an empy to 95, unless you use brews. The entire cost of a 75 relic is required to fund one stage of an empy. Which is harder when you put it that way?

[Cljader1]

I beg to differ about 75 relic harder than 90 empy. I'd like to see you solo a 90 empy, vs soloing a 75 relic. I assure you the 75 relic will be done first. 75 bravura solo, 2-3 months easy with a bst/dnc. 90 ukon solo? go try and see how long that takes you and how much curor you spend brewing. Relic only takes that long because you can only do it 2 hours a day. IF you could farm as much as you wanted, it would be no contest.

Just saying it's unrealistic to ask for such crazy boosts to a weapon that's easy to make. It's on topic. Stop thinking relic is so hard anymore and deserves to do the highest damage. If you want the best damage, then make the 'easy' empy. I'm sure you don't go around wearing salvage armor that took you many months to make and cost you millions of gil, asking for it to be upgraded. You are likely wearing empy armor. yes, the easy to make 'empy' armor.

You guys want relics to do the highest dps, have the best mods, just cause you think they are harder to make. Who wouldn't want their bravura to outdps an ukon, while having the bravura's tanking properities along with the debufs. Seriously think about what you are asking lol.

This guy has to be joking, I barely sneezed and I got 2 emps. I can take my emp RIGHT NOW to lvl 95 if I want to but I'm saving all my gil and gil making power to get my apoc from 95 to 99. I completed a emp in under one week, its too easy too get. BTW didnt the original poster say that he only want to hear from people who hold both a relic and emp? You only have a emp so you have no concept on what it takes to get a relic. So I don't know why you decided to posted in this thread

[Cljader1]

Well the Empyrean lvl 99 trial asks for 500 or something and the Relic trial asks for 1000 of something.

Watch it be 100's

I hope its not 1000 of 100 piece currency, I'm one of the richest people on the bismark server and not even I could achieve that task. That's like making 10 relics, just for the lvl 95-99 stage, but I wouldnt put it pass SE after all Tanaka is back and he want to grind players. I'll quit if thats his idea of grinding

[Cljader1]

I spent 0 gil on my bow... I farmed it 100%. Took me 40 days of farming, currently in the turning in stages, so Yes I know how easy it is to make a relic. If I wasn't limited to 2 hours per day, it would have taken around 5 days or less, depending on how long I farmed. The only cockblock is time. 2 hours a day x 40, 80 hours to make a relic. How many hours to make an empy? That 40 days is with 3 people btw. 3 people to farm your empy start to finish, how long would it take you.

You say you can make an emp to 90 in 2-3 days. I call bs once again. There's no way unless your days are 24 hour non stop gaming days. The trials before you even get the lvl 80 weapon, take more than 2-3 days. Heck one nm could take 8 hours to pop. 50 50 75 whatevers, 2-3 days with 18 people helping you, playing 24/7 maybe? Imagine if you could only do 2 hours a days of abyssea, that 2-3 days suddenly changes into weeks. Just like a relic! 18 people solo farming dynamis for you, how fast would you get a relic hrm? I bet just as fast or faster.

40 days of farming dynamis to make money to upgrade empy 90-95. That 40 days could make you a whole new relic. All a relic requires is 2 hours a day solo, or the gils to buy the currency. You can't solo an empy to 95, unless you use brews. The entire cost of a 75 relic is required to fund one stage of an empy. Which is harder when you put it that way?

Where is your relic bow sir, I'm on bismark server so I can see If you really have one

[Kitkat]

Nothing but perceiption....again

Seriously, how is what you are doing any different than what you accuse us of doing? More importantly, how does any of this relate at all to what the topic is about? Are you bringing anything constructive to the topic or are you more preoccupied with trying to make your emp seem far more difficult to make than it actually is?

In case you somehow don't know what the word percieption means, in this context, it means you are arguing 2 points you think are different and actually signify something of great importance when they are equal to one another. Your use of "hard" correlates to other uses of the word "hard" when viewed from anothers perspective relative to their own experiences. Just because something takes time, does not make it hard just because you think it does. Having done both an emp and a relic, I can tell you the trials are equally time consuming, but the end result is not equal to the time spent to reach the goal. This is the whole point you over look when you over exert yourself in explaining the perceived difficulties.

Emp 90-95 is equal to Relic stage 1 to completed 75 version, Relic WS+nm trials are equal to emp NM trials, but the end results are significantly different in relation to the amount of effort put into completing them. The only real difference between the two being that the order in which they are perceived to be difficult is virtually reversed from one another and that one is more rewarding sooner and ultimately than the other. That is the only difference between the trials themselves. Mythic weapons trump both emp and relic in effort required to build the weapon since it has far more time consuming steps than both combined, so both sides on this point alone need to grow up and shut up.

Your argument, it has no basis in this topic since the issue has nothing to do with how "hard" either weapon is to make in comparison to the overall result of the weapon up to its current completion point at 95. The topic was made to point out failings of the relic weapons/ws in comparison to other weapons/ws that exist within the game and why they are viewed as pitfalls,or need to be addressed issues. So why don't you kindly walk your happy little trumpet tooting idiology out of the thread unless you have a conclusive reasoning as to why the issues are of an unbalancing nature, or in your own words "crazy boosts."

[Cljader1]

I would like to see three boost given to lvl 99 relics increase odd hidden effect to 50% and rework ws damage/animation, and increase the potency of the aftermath effects

[Atomic_Skull]

I hope its not 1000 of 100 piece currency, I'm one of the richest people on the bismark server and not even I could achieve that task. That's like making 10 relics, just for the lvl 95-99 stage, but I wouldnt put it pass SE after all Tanaka is back and he want to grind players. I'll quit if thats his idea of grinding

Well the triels for relic +2 turned out to be 1x100 ~ 3x100 depending on what zone it drops in and originally the trials were asking for 30 "." so I wouldn't be surprised if the last relic trial is a 10,000 unit currency.

[macross]

I just turned in stage 4 of the bow today, you can see it on monday. It's not something I would lie about lol. I've had the currency for a while, just decided to turn it in and start it cause LSmate is doing his too so can work on trials together at some point, the NM stages. Being someone who actually farmed an entire relic on his own in 40 days, I feel my opinion on how easy it is does indeed matter. Hardest part of making it was deciding exactly which relic to make. Have you guys actually tried to farm dynamis lately? Actually who here even farmed their currency? I'd assume most simply bought the currency then made it, spending millions back when we were all 75.

My posts are entirely relevant. Of course I haven't actually gotten my relic to 95 or even 75 yet, but I've helped others with their trials, and it's not hard at all, just kill a bunch of EP mobs then a few EP nms.

Why does everyone keep over exaggerating how fast you can complete an empy. It's only fast because there are no artificial time constraints put on it. If you got alot of help and your game day is 16 hours long then of course it only takes a few days. Take those people and all go solo dynamis for you for 2 hours and you will have enough to make a relic too within 2-3 days.

colliex, which 2 empys did you barely sneeze at and make from start to completion in a week? How many people did you have helping you? How many pretrials did you sleep over night and leech? Since you are mega rich, how fast can you get the 15-16k currency to make a brand new lvl 75 relic? How long do you estimate it would take you to take a relic from 75 to 95? How fast can you make your lvl 95 empy? It took me 1 month to make 90-95 empy. You might have all the money in the world, but you still can't buy 1500 plates just like that. Well maybe more supply now that ls bard finished her harp today. Go look around and see how much currency you can buy for relic. Is so much out there, all you need is the gil.

[Runespider]

Given the latest interview I have to say I honestly doubt they will buff relics much more (last trial for them all will probably be VERY underwhelming), if anything the big emp WS (UF, VS etc) will be nerfed somewhat to put them more inline with the other 2 sets of "super" weapons. The buffing players stage of the game has come and gone, now it's all about balance again and in all honesty relics got far more buffs already than they would before abyssea and since that time is coming back I don't think we will get more.

I like the idea of my relic becoming more inline with my emps but as I said, new direction of leadership added to making them all easier to get...I don't think it's gonna get much more.

[Cljader1]

colliex, which 2 empys did you barely sneeze at and make from start to completion in a week? How many people did you have helping you? How many pretrials did you sleep over night and leech? Since you are mega rich, how fast can you get the 15-16k currency to make a brand new lvl 75 relic? How long do you estimate it would take you to take a relic from 75 to 95? How fast can you make your lvl 95 empy? It took me 1 month to make 90-95 empy. You might have all the money in the world, but you still can't buy 1500 plates just like that. Well maybe more supply now that ls bard finished her harp today. Go look around and see how much currency you can buy for relic. Is so much out there, all you need is the gil.

Your on bismark, you already know I'm mega rich... Caladbolg took a week, I barely sneezed and I got that emp to 85, the reason why emps are so easy to get to lvl 90 is because it take absolutely no capital at all to get too lvl 90 its all leg work. Now when you add a stage that need capital, you weed ALOT of people out. the hardest part getting an emp too lvl 90 is the vnm pretrails outside of that all you got too do is pug farm or have a group of friends help you farm. I did cara gems in one day

[Kitkat]

My posts are entirely relevant. Of course I haven't actually gotten my relic to 95 or even 75 yet, but I've helped others with their trials, and it's not hard at all, just kill a bunch of EP mobs then a few EP nms.


No they aren't because they are straw man arguments (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) not related to the primary topic. All you are doing is feeding an off topic argument, also known as baiting (flame bait (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=flame+bait)) while not offering any relevant feedback to the actual topic. Thus your points are invalid, your post are irrelevant, and this leaves your post as mere banter.

Topic: Relic weapon/WS
Your point: They are too easy and don't deserve any change.
Retort: Emp is just as easy and all other weapons/ws behave differently.
Your response: They are too easy and don't deserve any change coupled with Perceptive reasoning ignoring topic.
Findings: Straw man argument and Flame baiting
Conclusion: Your post are irrelevant and have no basis within the topic.

[Greatguardian]

You're both arguing in circles. The perception of the topic is different.

Macross: Only idiots are asking for Relics to be hands down better than Empyreans. However, despite their comparable difficulty, many Relics are pretty craptastic - especially compared to their Empyrean counterparts. Bringing them up to speed does not necessitate blowing Empyreans out of the water, nor does it imply that all relics are currently worthless. Some are still best-in-class weapons.

Kit: I realize what you and some others are trying to discuss, however you're always going to have detractors even among your own supporters. Posts like this one:


They shouldn't, trial wise they should be equal. Strength wise relics should naturally be stronger from 75 onwards, with Emps being like the little brother of 'em with Mythic's being Big Bro.

Relics are more difficult to obtain, therefore they SHOULD be better.


Should not happen. They only serve to distract from the issue at hand. Unfortunately, this sort of thing happens a lot. People are very stodgy about their Relics. Or worse, people without Relics are stodgy about the concept of a Relic. Relics aren't that hard, but they're still ultimate weapons. Bringing them up to par with Mythics and Empyreans (which both destroy most Relics) would only be sensible.

[Taint2]

I spent 0 gil on my bow... I farmed it 100%. Took me 40 days of farming, currently in the turning in stages, so Yes I know how easy it is to make a relic. If I wasn't limited to 2 hours per day, it would have taken around 5 days or less, depending on how long I farmed. The only cockblock is time. 2 hours a day x 40, 80 hours to make a relic. How many hours to make an empy? That 40 days is with 3 people btw. 3 people to farm your empy start to finish, how long would it take you.




385 coins per run with 3 people is highly unlikely and everything going to you. I farm Dynamis most days with 2 very very good players (sometimes 3 others) and 385, while possible isn't happening every single day. I also would feel very selfish taking every single coin for 40 days straight.

So when did you really start your bow and how long did it really take?

[Unleashhell]

I'm really hoping to get some kind of feedback from the Devs about this before they do the next update. I know they have a million other things to worry about but if they just say lets take 2-3 minutes and decide what to do with relics, and they say ok 10% more boost in hidden effect and call it good then I'll be a little pissed. not like I can do anything about it anyway lol.

[Arbole]

Aren't the stats for all the lvl 99 ultimate weapons already on BG?

[Foldypaws]

Aren't the stats for all the lvl 99 ultimate weapons already on BG?

You can see what would be listed in the equipment screen, but no one knows what Afterglow is, or if they're going to be adjusting or adding more hidden stats. (WS% boost, xDamage proc rate, something else entirely)

[Unleashhell]

Looks like they aren't even letting us test them before the update being that its Wednesday. The upgrade items SHOULD be drops in dynamis. Otherwise it would not follow any sort of pattern for relic weapons, but then again Emp at 95 are VW and those items aren't in Abyssea so we will see.

[macross]

385 coins per run with 3 people is highly unlikely and everything going to you. I farm Dynamis most days with 2 very very good players (sometimes 3 others) and 385, while possible isn't happening every single day. I also would feel very selfish taking every single coin for 40 days straight.

So when did you really start your bow and how long did it really take?

You must not read BG, you would see a lot of my posts there. I 3 box, and my highest 1 day total is 720 coins. So yes they all go to me. 40 days 3 boxing, kinda slow but that's my pace. A real trio could pull in over 400 very easily. Heck my bst friend consistantly pulls in 200 a day solo. Even the most gimpest bst could pullin 150 day np. 3 months or so to solo a relic with a bst/dnc avging 150+ a day. If i were really hard core i would go 3x a day with 1 bst each time and pull in 450-600 coins a day.

As for colliex and your gsword, you still didn't say how long your game day is, and how many people helped you farm it. Also that's one of the easiest empys to make all the way to 90.

I must say my ukon was pretty easy, felt like i sneezed and got it too, just be cause my whole ls helped to make it. If i had to 2-3 man the whole thing then hell no It would not be a sneeze and voila type deal. 18 people x how many hours, that's alot of man-hours. If 18 people went into dynamis seperately and farmed 150 coins each, a relic would be completed every 5 days. Heck if dynamis wasn't a 2 hour event, could make a relic in 1 day with 18 people farming the whole day.



OP topic: relic 99 ws need to be buffed:
my reply: why do they need buffs, they are easy to make?
Others replies: no way! relics are hard, they deserve to be best!
my response: no, they are in fact the easiest, with explanations why.
Kitkat: wut, I got no answer to your points, I will just say you're trying to troll.

Anyhow, if they actually make the relic 95-99 trial a challenge, then hell yes they deserve a buff. There's still a bunch more 95 relic and mythics than there are empys, even though the trials have been out the same time, and there are alot more empys than relics and mythics.

[Economizer]

Being someone who actually farmed an entire relic on his own in 40 days

No doubts, no accusations. How'd you do it?

All the Dynamis guides I've seen have been subpar in one way or another for the Dynamis changes, and someone with actual experience giving a run down would be very nice.

-

Anyways, to get back on topic, I'd like to talk about one part of what I think is wrong about Relic weapon skills. They're all over the place!

Some are powerful and some are weak. Generally, the aftermaths should all fit the same amount of power. Look at them, I think it just gets more and more absurd, and even most of the good effects are still stuck at level 75 scaling.

Apocalypse/Catastrophe - 10% gear haste.

Mandau/Mercy Stroke - Improved Crit Rate

Ragnarok/Scourge - Improved Crit Rate.

Bravura/Metatron Torment - Lowers damage taken from enemies.

Spharai/Final Heaven - Subtle Blow

Kikoku/Blade: Metsu - Subtle Blow. Side Note: WS Animation shows four hits, WS does one.

Yoichinoyumi/Namas Arrow - Improves Ranged Accuracy.

Mjollnir/Randgrith - +20 Accuracy.

Annihilator - Coronach - Lowers Emnity. WS has set enmity value.

Amanomurakumo/Tachi: Kaiten - Store TP +7.

Guttler/Onslaught - Increases Attack.

Claustrum/Gate of Tartarus - Refresh 8MP/tic for 20 seconds per 100TP.

Excalibur/Knights of Round - 10HP/tic for 20 seconds per 100 TP.

Gungnir/Geirskogul - Shock Spikes.

Lots of things could be done with these things, from plain scaling them up to not suck to making them ignore certain caps. A low end version of this would be the Subtle Blow effect weapons ignoring the cap, and maybe even getting increased Subtle Blow. Considering there is a new WS with Plague as an effect, it might even work to make them feed no TP whatsoever. A more extreme version would be having the accuracy affecting aftermaths ignore the accuracy cap along with scaled increases - a player with the right setup would never miss. Perhaps these ideas would go to far, but the bottom line is that these need to at least be brought in line with higher levels and each other, let alone other superweapons.

[Runespider]

I must say my ukon was pretty easy, felt like i sneezed and got it too, just be cause my whole ls helped to make it. If i had to 2-3 man the whole thing then hell no It would not be a sneeze and voila type deal. 18 people x how many hours, that's alot of man-hours. If 18 people went into dynamis seperately and farmed 150 coins each, a relic would be completed every 5 days. Heck if dynamis wasn't a 2 hour event, could make a relic in 1 day with 18 people farming the whole day.

Relic now, is easy (farm CoP ares if you want big coin counts and can take the daily boredom). Emp is laughably easy (not so much when they were released but they sure are now).

Only hard one is mythic and I'm posistive they will make them easy to get too soon.


OP topic: relic 99 ws need to be buffed:
my reply: why do they need buffs, they are easy to make?
Others replies: no way! relics are hard, they deserve to be best!
my response: no, they are in fact the easiest, with explanations why.
Kitkat: wut, I got no answer to your points, I will just say you're trying to troll.

Emps ARE easier than Relics to make still (unless you think FC&killing some easy nms for KI and Glavoid etc are hard?), and quicker but people want relic WS to be more inline with what emps can do, not better. My Emp WS numbers crap all over my relic, especially on stuff that matters.

Keep in mind some people arguing about difficulty probably made them when they took years to make (mine took 2 years), emps have always been quick to smash out..even with 5-6 people.

[Werewolf]

I love how people say relics are easy, sure maybe now they are but not when cap was 75 and you could only enter 2 days a week plus the glass cost 1 mil each run... anyone that did relics that wasn't linkshell made pre Dynamis nerf had it much harder.

Being someone who actually did that and did all the Relic Magian Trials also pre nerf (yeah 2k weaponskill kills suck) I feel a bit ripped off, but that's Final Fantasy XI for you these days.

And back on topic they need a boost, I really don't care how much they nerfed Dynamis these days but the weaponskill should at least be on par with Empyrean ones.

[Unleashhell]

OP topic: relic 99 ws need to be buffed:
my reply: why do they need buffs, they are easy to make?
Others replies: no way! relics are hard, they deserve to be best!
my response: no, they are in fact the easiest, with explanations why.
Kitkat: wut, I got no answer to your points, I will just say you're trying to troll.


Do you need Hooked on Phonics or something? What part of the topic are you not understanding? This is NOT about how easy they are to make. Its about weaponskill vs. weaponskill, if you actually think relics are the easiest to make your in a fantasy world (no pun intended). Ever single reply you do says the exact same thing, relics are easy blah blah blah. And again, going off topic of weaponskill vs. weaponskill.

How are you going to sit there and say a level 85 Emp weapon that can EASILY do more weaponskill damage then a level 95 Relic, a 10 level difference, be acceptable just cause you think relics are easy to make? You gotta be joking....

[Selzak]

I don't think it's fair to say that 3-boxing something is a legitimate aspect of the game. If you can do it in a short(er) amount of time by 3-boxing, that doesn't necessarily mean it's easy.

I solo'd my Caladbolg, and I'm in the process of soloing an Apocalypse. The Apocalypse is a lot more difficult to make, and it's value is a lot higher too. For instance, if you buy Chloris pops for 1,000,000 gil each, you'll be done around 35,000,000 gil into it. Just straight buying an Empyrean would cost at the very, absolute most imaginable around 70,000,000 gil. That's (and we're assuming a very, very high price IMO) about half the cost of a Relic.

[Chriscoffey]

Do you need Hooked on Phonics or something? What part of the topic are you not understanding? This is NOT about how easy they are to make. Its about weaponskill vs. weaponskill, if you actually think relics are the easiest to make your in a fantasy world (no pun intended). Ever single reply you do says the exact same thing, relics are easy blah blah blah. And again, going off topic of weaponskill vs. weaponskill.

How are you going to sit there and say a level 85 Emp weapon that can EASILY do more weaponskill damage then a level 95 Relic, a 10 level difference, be acceptable just cause you think relics are easy to make? You gotta be joking....
It's the same reason everyone that did empyrean were saying relics should be left to old content and not touched again. They don't want anything coming close to their epeen numbers for how easy it was to make them. I think they are both easy to make but since this guy already upgraded Uko. to 95 I already know why he's defending this train of thought. It just makes you wonder why they say these things YET, before the dynamis changes, they were arguing to forget about people who have done relics or their time sink involved.


Apocalypse/Catastrophe -10% Own haste w/ 5% going past Haste cap.

Mandau/Mercy Stroke - Improved Crit Rate

Ragnarok/Scourge - Chance of any GS WS to Critical while aftermath is up+ Improved Crit Rate.

Bravura/Metatron Torment - Lowers damage taken from enemies.

Spharai/Final Heaven - Subtle Blow

Kikoku/Blade: Metsu - Subtle Blow. Side Note: WS Animation shows four hits, WS does one.

Yoichinoyumi/Namas Arrow - Improves Ranged Accuracy.

Mjollnir/Randgrith - +20 Accuracy.

This would tickle me to see warriors emo crying, however, the GS would be a bonus to them.

[Kitkat]

Already answered you Macross, you're the only one caught up on "Which is harder to make and more deserving?" Your perceiption is the only thing that blocks any of the reasons I've posted as to why the changes to relic need to be made, and absolutely none of them had anything to do with "they are so hard." They had to do with comparisions to all other weapons with additional effects, all other weapons that can deal double, or more, damage, and all other weaponskills that exist in the game.

Your explanations are so open to interpretation they show a perceived biased. You constantly attack people who get them done in 2-3 days with "you must have 16 hours a day to play" which according to your "it takes 80 hours total to make a relic" there is no relevance since it is total time to complete. The NM-VNM trials all take less than 6 hours a piece if you kill the placeholder, never saw any NM take longer than 2 hours max to respawn with a total time of 90minutes on average before NM was out again. By your reasoning, I can negate these respawn wait periods because they are "restrictive limits that prolong the actual time spent doing the work" this then makes the trials take less than 20-30 minutes total for duration of fights up past the VNM trial stage.

Now we are at the 50x 50x 75x trial, and for this I'll use one of my LS members who is making his 3rd emp and on average has less than 4 characters for pop sets, 2 of which are his. The weapons done are Gaxe and H2h, one of the more time consuming ones to make due to pop-sets, and all took less than a total of 75 hours, and yes...both are lvl 90. The 3rd is gun, which once it is 85 makes completing any other emp a total joke. Getting 200k for cruor is easier than you make it sound also...less than 2 hours of my time and I can get 200k cruor via alternating mob type kills, heck I can do this while skilling up a job. Now, before you pull the "16hour a day" card: he works a full time job during the week, and who knows what he does on weekends, but is afk more than he is online doing anything (most times he comes back drunk). So there goes your reasoning there.....moving on.

Now, being that VWNMs drop the plates, and anyone with a void stone can participate with a chance at treasure pool, this means there is a potential of 18-50 per fight which can be pooled into one person. Now, by your reasoning, this can be negated to being "easy" because they can be traded/bought and falls fully on you if the people you do the VWNM with expect you to pay for the ones they get. 95 trial then becomes akin to currency collection by becoming reliant on others or having the gil to buy them straight out.

Now that I've humored you, I'm done with you. There is nothing here that is any different than your argument because I used all your same tactics by negating wait times since they are down time/restrictions/inactivity, and even used the lowman completion of parts, and then applied the same reasoning you give currency collection to HMP collection. Thing is, none of this explains why relic shouldn't be fixed to react like all other weapons or weaponskills. How "hard" emp or relic are to make is an irrelevant factor when the problem isn't that at all, it is the uniqueness of the weapons/ws that is the problem. Now it is your turn to humor me...

I would like to see a 12~20% activation rate on hidden that is per attack, not per round so that double attack and triple attacks have a chance for ODD or OTD to proc on them as well.

I would like to see the weapons react to TP differences other than aftermath duration because other weapons with aftermath already get longer durations and still have scaling TP modifiers.

The tacked on 25% bonuse lvl 90 relics got barely makes up for the 3.0ftp across the board...cause now it is just the WS damage equation with a 1.25 multiplier at the end. They should have gone back and added TP modifiers at this point, not a 25% boost.

All relics are 1 hit wonders.....why is it some of them look like multiple hits and still maintain a 1hit nature? More so, these weapons are mostly 1hander weapons, only 1 is a 2hander. Dagger looks like a 4 hit WS, Axe looks like a 5 hit, club looks like a 2 hit, polearm looks like a 2 hit, katana looks like a 4 hit....but they are all really just 1hit. Can't be due to their 3.0fTP, because Emp WS have 2.25-3.75fTP modifiers and still maintain multiple hit status while also getting modifiers that increase their chance to crit, do more damage, or ignore defense.

Explain how these are "crazy boost" request in comparison to how every other weapon/WS in the game works.

[DrStrangelove]

Changes to some (not all relics), just the ones I've seen or used

Six of the biggest problems with relic WS are:

1) fTP does not scale
2) some of the WS mods are weak (e.g., INT)
3) some of the AM are weak (e.g., shock spikes or choke)
4) some of the AM hit caps (e.g., haste, subtle blow)
5) some of the underlying weapons are themselves weak (e.g., gungnir)
6) some make no sense (hello, claustrum)

Apoc-If the haste is not allowed to exceed the normal haste cap, then this should be changed to a different strong DD effect (e.g., ODD, occas. attack 2-3 times, attack boost). Fix mods (INT/AGI) and change INT to at least STR or DEX.

Annihilator-Coronach should either scale in damage after 100tp (from 3.00), or have the modifier bumped to 4.00. It's not bad as is, but mobs have much higher HP now, so a modest change is warranted. Lower enmity for aftermath is fine as is. In addition, change mods from AGI/DEX to STR/AGI like Yoichi. Coronach should have no distance penalty.

Yoichi-Namas same as above. Higher ranged accuracy for aftermath is fine as is. Scale WS mods or bump base to a static 4.00. Namas should have no distance penalty.

Gungnir-remarkably underpowered and beaten by a WOE weapon. Sad. The WS needs to be drastically upped to offset this debacle. Changing mod from 60% AGI is one step. AM (shock spikes?). May be make AM: e.g., wyvern does double/triple breath damage or just give DRG added DD AM. Raise base fTP from 3.00 to 4.00 or scale.

Ragnarok-difficult issue since it's somewhat a stepchild for WAR, DRK and PLD. The addition of an Impetus type affect along with it's current effect probably won't help much. A chance to crit WS would probably be the best solution. Scale TP or increase base to 4.00.

Excalibur-needs dramatic changes to be viable

Bravura-Metatron should get the same TP scaling or a bump to 4.00. No other changes needed and AM is fine.

Amano-see Bravura. Scale or 4.00.

Guttler-AM is choke. Very very poor. If we really need to go that way, make it silence, blind, slow and paralyze with separate modest proc rates on VT mobs. Or change to better ODD AM, or add a strong pet DD as mentioned for Gungnir. Add 15% attack bonus to Onslaught, make it critical and let it scale. Much better.

Kikoku-Change Metsu to 4.00 or scale it, plus add a bonus to attack (+15%). AM should be EITHER subtle blow effect that is above the cap OR magical and physical evasion(+25%).

Spharai-Change Final Heaven to 4.00 and or scale it, plus add a bonus to attack (+15%). AM should be EITHER subtle blow effect that is above the cap OR increased DA rate (+10%).

Claustrum-(/sigh). Fix the underlying weapon. Fixing the WS is like putting whipped cream on a patty.

I don't think these make relic WS better than empy WS in Abyssea (which bothers me), but it makes relic WS viable outside on strong mobs.

[Unleashhell]

Changes to some (not all relics), just the ones I've seen or used

Six of the biggest problems with relic WS are:

1) fTP does not scale
2) some of the WS mods are weak (e.g., INT)
3) some of the AM are weak (e.g., shock spikes or choke)
4) some of the AM hit caps (e.g., haste, subtle blow)
5) some of the underlying weapons are themselves weak (e.g., gungnir)
6) some make no sense (hello, claustrum)

Apoc-If the haste is not allowed to exceed the normal haste cap, then this should be changed to a different strong DD effect (e.g., ODD, occas. attack 2-3 times, attack boost). Fix mods (INT/AGI) and change INT to at least STR or DEX.

Annihilator-Coronach should either scale in damage after 100tp (from 3.00), or have the modifier bumped to 4.00. It's not bad as is, but mobs have much higher HP now, so a modest change is warranted. Lower enmity for aftermath is fine as is. In addition, change mods from AGI/DEX to STR/AGI like Yoichi. Coronach should have no distance penalty.

Yoichi-Namas same as above. Higher ranged accuracy for aftermath is fine as is. Scale WS mods or bump base to a static 4.00. Namas should have no distance penalty.

Gungnir-remarkably underpowered and beaten by a WOE weapon. Sad. The WS needs to be drastically upped to offset this debacle. Changing mod from 60% AGI is one step. AM (shock spikes?). May be make AM: e.g., wyvern does double/triple breath damage or just give DRG added DD AM. Raise base fTP from 3.00 to 4.00 or scale.

Ragnarok-difficult issue since it's somewhat a stepchild for WAR, DRK and PLD. The addition of an Impetus type affect along with it's current effect probably won't help much. A chance to crit WS would probably be the best solution. Scale TP or increase base to 4.00.

Excalibur-needs dramatic changes to be viable

Bravura-Metatron should get the same TP scaling or a bump to 4.00. No other changes needed and AM is fine.

Amano-see Bravura. Scale or 4.00.

Guttler-AM is choke. Very very poor. If we really need to go that way, make it silence, blind, slow and paralyze with separate modest proc rates on VT mobs. Or change to better ODD AM, or add a strong pet DD as mentioned for Gungnir. Add 15% attack bonus to Onslaught, make it critical and let it scale. Much better.

Kikoku-Change Metsu to 4.00 or scale it, plus add a bonus to attack (+15%). AM should be EITHER subtle blow effect that is above the cap OR magical and physical evasion(+25%).

Spharai-Change Final Heaven to 4.00 and or scale it, plus add a bonus to attack (+15%). AM should be EITHER subtle blow effect that is above the cap OR increased DA rate (+10%).

Claustrum-(/sigh). Fix the underlying weapon. Fixing the WS is like putting whipped cream on a patty.

I don't think these make relic WS better than empy WS in Abyssea (which bothers me), but it makes relic WS viable outside on strong mobs.


Now this is what I'm talking about. Great feedback, thanks.

[Coldbrand]

All these AGI INT etc. mods for DRK and DRG should go period. STR is where it's at.

[Economizer]

I'm mainly focusing on the Aftermath for what I'm talking about, but I think talking about other factors is good too:


Apoc-If the haste is not allowed to exceed the normal haste cap, then this should be changed to a different strong DD effect (e.g., ODD, occas. attack 2-3 times, attack boost).

I don't think it will ever be able to hit the Haste cap, and attack 2-3 times is a mythic thing. On the other hand, changing the haste to its own category (or at least magic cap) that can help hit the total Haste cap would help. It would be very risky for having it compare to other damage weapons to break the cap period, but being able to hit the Haste cap without a Bard or Dancer on hand would still be incredibly powerful.



Annihilator-Coronach should either scale in damage after 100tp (from 3.00), or have the modifier bumped to 4.00. It's not bad as is, but mobs have much higher HP now, so a modest change is warranted. Lower enmity for aftermath is fine as is. In addition, change mods from AGI/DEX to STR/AGI like Yoichi. Coronach should have no distance penalty.

The no distance penalty thing for the WS sounds good. If people judge the aftermath as fine, then it probably is - I know that my issue I had was looking at stuff like this and Catastrophe and thinking "Why aren't the rest of the aftermath effects as good as these?"


Ragnarok-difficult issue since it's somewhat a stepchild for WAR, DRK and PLD. The addition of an Impetus type affect along with it's current effect probably won't help much. A chance to crit WS would probably be the best solution. Scale TP or increase base to 4.00.

Excalibur-needs dramatic changes to be viable

The aftermaths on these are pretty terrible in general. Definitely need improved versions. If shockspikes is going to be kept, then it should have a near 100% stun rate in addition to the massive damage we only see on NMs.

Regen... if that's going to be kept, it should be something absurd like 100HP/tic.


Kikoku-Change Metsu to 4.00 or scale it, plus add a bonus to attack (+15%). AM should be EITHER subtle blow effect that is above the cap OR magical and physical evasion(+25%).

Spharai-Change Final Heaven to 4.00 and or scale it, plus add a bonus to attack (+15%). AM should be EITHER subtle blow effect that is above the cap OR increased DA rate (+10%).

These are very easy, just increase the cap for these weapons, and maybe increase the effect to scale with level.

Personally, I think the accuracy affecting aftermaths should make missing a near impossibility if not an impossibility, but that's just me.

[macross]

Again, seems just asking to make relics stronger than empy, while retaining their special properties. I agree some need work, but so do some empys.

Apoc, let's make this do mega dmg, while keeping the haste and life steal.
gun, let's make this do way more dmg, but keep the -enmity, and heck let us melee and shoot it too!
Bow, let's make this do way more dmg, but keep the -enmity, and heck let us melee and shoot it!
Bravura, lets make it do as much dmg as ukko, but keep the super tanking dt AM.
Amano, alreayd as good as masa or better, so let's make it better for sure!
Guttler, whatever bst doesnt need a weapon. If anything let it help your pet instead of doing mega dmg.
Katana, Let's make it stronger in abyssea. Guess what, hi sucks ass outside abyssea. Relic already better using jin.
sphrai, let's make it as good a VS, but let us counter near 100% too! Better still we won't have to rely on impetus to make it uber.
Staff, whatever

Relics already have built in dbl triple dmg, without even relying on AM.
Relics already are good vs strong mobs. Not as high dmg as some empys, but you got the other special to make up for it.
Maybe you guys are just playing in abyssea and feel your relics suck? cause they do, INSIDE abyssea. Outside, they are good enough.

Do some VW and compare how relics do, they do just fine and dandy. Relics still are the highest base dmg weapons in the game. You can always use the new WS with them as well, where as you cannot with empys as you lose their AM. Only good empys are gaxe, bow, gun, gkt, and h2h, sword. Go watch blade hi hit for 75 dmg on qilin lol. Come level 99, you will be using lvl 99 relics, vs people with lvl 90 empys cause let's face it, not many can or will upgrade empy to 95.

And kitkat, how long did your ls mate take to finish his ukon and h2h? you said 4 man mostly, 75 hours. Did you count the time he spent doing the 25+ NM's beforehand? 600 coins a day, 2hours a day. Yep easily make a relic in under 75 hours, if 4 people went in and farmed 2 hour a day each, and gave all the currency to you. Again your friend is probably underestimating his time spent, time kinda flys fast.

Economizer, bst/dnc is best to farm with, using a ladybug pet for th. bst will outdmg a thief, plus bst is great for getting the Time Extensions. biggest impact on coins is how fast you can get the 5 time extensions. Team up with others then split up after you get them all is best if you can. secondly it's how much competition you have. You can solo 150 coins a day with a perle wearing bst with crappy AH bought weapons. People even lvl up brand new mules to farm dynamis more than once a day. Gear up the bst more and you can hit 200 a day.

That being said, I tried out many combos of jobs, before settling on dnc dnc bst. This relies more on getting 100's to drop with lucky white procs. You can still easily avg 400 a day using 3 jobs/dnc to proc then finishing with strong dd like blu or sam.

I realize some took many years to make their relics, but some didn't. Some make their empys in days, while others take months. All boils down to how hard is it make now, not then. Empys used to be damn hard to make too, it's why i have a lot of woe weapons because empys were just too hard to make back then. Used to take months to get to 75 too, now it takes 1 day. Just because you lvled the hard way long ago doesn't mean you deserve to be better than someone who lvls in 1.

I"m not putting down relics just cause I've upgraded my empy to 95 either. Both were easy to make. Both empys and relics have shitty weapons and good weapons. If bravura starts doing more dmg then ukkos, then what exactly is the point in making ukko. One tanks better, one dps's better. they are balanced. same can be said for h2h. sphrai tanks better, vere dps better. gun and bow, relic survive better, empy more dmg. Getting killed is 0 dps. Surviving and doing less per hit is better than dying.

For relics being so hard to make, empys should be a breeze, so why complain at all, just jump on the bandwaggon and make one no? The jist of the matter is people relics want to feel special, not run of the mill. Want something rare to brag about, but since they suck not, there's nothing to brag about, so is some butthurt there. Empys felt special back when they were hard too. Heck I remember making my WOE h2h soon as lvl 85 was out, and blowing peoples minds with it in xp pts. Now that everyone has an empy, they are nothing special. At least mythic holders can feel good, till the up alex drop rates at least.

PS, bravura can do as much dmg as ukko, you just need to use your 2h. So if that's all you got in abyssea, then pop those 2h chests and go at it.

[Creelo]

Yes, relic WSs need to be reworked.

And Gjallarhorn should get its own song (Ex: Massacre Elegy) <.<

:X

[Cljader1]

Yes, relic WSs need to be reworked.

And Gjallarhorn should get its own song (Ex: Massacre Elegy) <.<

:X

I agree with this, there should be a special relic song added too this horn. Adleast SE said there looking into further enhancement to make to the weapon

[Kitkat]

~Rolls eyes~ You must not know how to do math very well if you think raising ftp to 4.0 makes it stronger than emp. Getting on at around 4pm my time and usually getting off around 10 or 11pm, his weapons are done in roughly 4 days up to 85 easily. Gun he started on Wednesday, it's 85 as of Friday night. I already humored you and answered every question you asked in prior post. You've yet to humor me without being sarcastic, or you compare the weapons on other weaponskills and ignore points brought up. So like everyone else is doing at this point, I'm ignoring you, just like you ignore any argument of substance.

[Crysten]

Relics need to be looked at from a broad perspective; not just the WS. Remember these weapons have hidden effects, additional effects and in the case of 2H weapons, a 20% 2-3x damage proc without the need for a constant Aftermath.

If you're asking for Relics to be the best from every regard, you're being dumb. If you're asking for Empyreans to be the best from every regard, you're also being dumb. The only weapons that even deserve the "time > difficulty" argument for them are Mythics. Period.

Relics, as a whole, have become much more viable and powerful since the 95 update, and really, who knows how Relics, Empyreans and Mythics are going to compare until the update hits.

As it currently stands, there are some weapons that are gonna be absolutely freaking broken should you increase the base WS damage to that of Empyreans. Amano, Apoc, Excalibur, Bravura and Annihilator immediately spring to mind for this. Amano was already very much on par with Masamune on lower defense mobs, Apoc is already DRK's best scythe as it is, Excalibur has it's HP > damage ratio, Bravura allows a full PDT build in full Haste and Annihilator has the utility of having it's enmity supression.

There are of course relics that could use adjustments to make up for crappy aftermaths (hi Gungnir) and mage Relics just need a bloody slap in the face, but looking at the bigger picture, I feel relics are based more on utility and Empys are based on pure damage.

Also, if you're comparing 99 Relics, you need to compare the 99 Empyrean equivilent. Until next update, we still don't know if there'll be any adjustment to the way an Empy becomes fully upgraded. You never know, Empys could have little to no improvement from 90-99, whereas relics could have an amazing hidden effect we have no idea about in addition to the Afterglow, whatever that is.

[Unleashhell]

As it currently stands, there are some weapons that are gonna be absolutely freaking broken should you increase the base WS damage to that of Empyreans. Amano, Apoc, Excalibur, Bravura and Annihilator immediately spring to mind for this. Amano was already very much on par with Masamune on lower defense mobs, Apoc is already DRK's best scythe as it is, Excalibur has it's HP > damage ratio, Bravura allows a full PDT build in full Haste and Annihilator has the utility of having it's enmity supression.

Lol, Have you even seen Knights of Round? It sucks... No matter how much HP you have. Not to mention your almost never at max HP to benefit from the most % you can get out of any WS with that sword.

[Crysten]

Lol, Have you even seen Knights of Round? It sucks... No matter how much HP you have. Not to mention your almost never at max HP to benefit from the most % you can get out of any WS with that sword.

Do you even know how your sword works? (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Excalibur) The HP additional effect and the occasional 2.5x damage procs are independent of Knights of Round.

Excalibur is already a beastly DPS sword on any higher level mob because of this alone. If you're not at high enough HP for your Excalibur to matter, get better WHMs.

[Kitkat]

As prior stated, relic 12~20% hidden procs only activate on the first attack of every round (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/72572-Completed-Relic-Mythic-weapons-list?p=4801704&viewfull=1#post4801704) while other weapons have the ability to have their 2-4x damage procs activate on any/all hits that come from that weapon, be it 1 hit per round or 3 hits per round. This alone would go a long way in helping relics by removing the pseudo "12~20%" and making it a true 12-20%.

When you compare the ws, to give just a base fTP increase, or even the ability to scale with varied tp amounts, they still will not touch Emp in overall total damage. Emp has scaling tp and aftermath durations long enough to hold over ws to ws while activating on all hits of the weapon;scaling from 30 to 50% activation depending on level of aftermath (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Aftermath).

Even if SE decided to leave them all as one hit wonders, a scaling 3.25ftp to 3.75 (a few with 4.0ftp) would be adequate enough. This is all assuming that they end up being the same exact TP modifier, which is not the case. Some of these could be turned in to simple "ignores defense" rather than "Damage varies by TP" or even be "Chance to crit varies by TP" which could result in different fTP multipliers of them to compensate for the chance to deal critical damage just like other weaponskills with the chance to crit tend to have lower than 3.0ftp.

The flat ftp increase is only assuming that SE has no intention at all to add TP modifiers, meaning the weaponskills would stay as they are but would have a new across the board ftp multipliers which would then place it near to Emp WS totals, but not surpassing them. The ideal behind this is that most other pure DD ws have the ability to start at 3.25 ftp and scale as high as 5.25 (http://wiki.bluegartr.com/bg/Rudra%27s_Storm) ftp while still being a 1hit ws, others are 1.75-2.25 fTP with chance to crit and are multi-hit WS (from 3-4hit) with only one being a 4.0ftp and still being crit hit.

[Unleashhell]

Do you even know how your sword works? (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Excalibur) The HP additional effect and the occasional 2.5x damage procs are independent of Knights of Round.

Excalibur is already a beastly DPS sword on any higher level mob because of this alone. If you're not at high enough HP for your Excalibur to matter, get better WHMs.

LOL yes I know how my sword works. My point is the actual "Relic weaponskill" which on most relics need to be adjusted a'lot more then the path SE is currently gearing towards. Would be pretty stupid to do a relic and not know how it works...

If you think the HP% and the hidden effect make Excalibur Beastly your sadly mistaken...

[Neisan_Quetz]

Excalibur is 2nd or 3rd best Pld mainhand weapon, depending on how much Atonement is nerfed against target mob. I really don't see why this is a problem.

[kyomi]

While I don't have a relic I can see why people would complain about them given what I have found. I got fed up with the back and forth between which is hrder so did some homework about the topic point instead. All relic being 3.0 ftp, no tp modifiers, and hidden effect changes seem to be valid complaints.

Back at 75 cap this all made sense, but when you introduce a new weapon line then hardly upgrade an existing one you said wouldn't be replaced, it seems like a kick in the teeth. 25% boost seems lacking, even if factored after everything else, when looking at the lack of scaling with tp. Most aftermath add little to nothing to the wielder mking them want to hold tp, and no bonus to aftermath effect or ws damage if they do.

Being stuck with the ws I have, I would be upset if some of my dd ws didn't scale either or have something that made holding tp augment the ws in sme fashion. I don't have to worry about this though, and some of my ws that don't scale at least have multiple hits to fall back on. With that I think the devs really should take a second look at relics and put more effort ot make them act like normal weapons. The unique nature of them seems to be pretty bad.

[Darriken]

I just turned in stage 4 of the bow today, you can see it on monday. It's not something I would lie about lol. I've had the currency for a while, just decided to turn it in and start it cause LSmate is doing his too so can work on trials together at some point, the NM stages. Being someone who actually farmed an entire relic on his own in 40 days, I feel my opinion on how easy it is does indeed matter. Hardest part of making it was deciding exactly which relic to make. Have you guys actually tried to farm dynamis lately? Actually who here even farmed their currency? I'd assume most simply bought the currency then made it, spending millions back when we were all 75.

My posts are entirely relevant. Of course I haven't actually gotten my relic to 95 or even 75 yet, but I've helped others with their trials, and it's not hard at all, just kill a bunch of EP mobs then a few EP nms.

Why does everyone keep over exaggerating how fast you can complete an empy. It's only fast because there are no artificial time constraints put on it. If you got alot of help and your game day is 16 hours long then of course it only takes a few days. Take those people and all go solo dynamis for you for 2 hours and you will have enough to make a relic too within 2-3 days.

colliex, which 2 empys did you barely sneeze at and make from start to completion in a week? How many people did you have helping you? How many pretrials did you sleep over night and leech? Since you are mega rich, how fast can you get the 15-16k currency to make a brand new lvl 75 relic? How long do you estimate it would take you to take a relic from 75 to 95? How fast can you make your lvl 95 empy? It took me 1 month to make 90-95 empy. You might have all the money in the world, but you still can't buy 1500 plates just like that. Well maybe more supply now that ls bard finished her harp today. Go look around and see how much currency you can buy for relic. Is so much out there, all you need is the gil.

I thought you said you had three people

[Cljader1]

Do you even know how your sword works? (http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Excalibur) The HP additional effect and the occasional 2.5x damage procs are independent of Knights of Round.

Excalibur is already a beastly DPS sword on any higher level mob because of this alone. If you're not at high enough HP for your Excalibur to matter, get better WHMs.

This is true, excalibur is a beast the normal regular hits are monsterous sometimes even doing as much as the ws itself

[Crysten]

LOL yes I know how my sword works. My point is the actual "Relic weaponskill" which on most relics need to be adjusted a'lot more then the path SE is currently gearing towards. Would be pretty stupid to do a relic and not know how it works...

If you think the HP% and the hidden effect make Excalibur Beastly your sadly mistaken...

Depends entirely on your target mob, as I've pointed out. I have no idea what mobs you fight on PLD on a regular basis, so I can't make an informed judgement here. I remember seeing parses of Excalibur PLDs making DDs look positively stupid on Jailer of Love back at 75 based on the added/hidden effects alone, but I can't speak for anything at current endgame.

If you're talking about fodder mobs and Abyssea, then yes, Excalibur tends to fall behind Almace due to CDC's potency and Aftermath. For current endgame mobs in VW like Qilin, though, an Excalibur in particular is going to hold it's own well provided your support isn't leaving you in the yellow the entire time. The harder the mobs become, the more the balance tilts in favour of relics as the majority of Empyrean WS lose their luster due to mob defense, lower crit rates and so on.

The simple way to put it - shit is situational. Use your Excalibur on harder stuff, Almace on easier stuff, then quit the freaking whining cos Burtgang's better than both of them.

I can't help but feel that sense of entitlement from relic holders again, here, honestly. :/

[macross]

On my own, meaning i'm playing 2-3 chars to farm with, not 3 people. 3 real people would be much more efficient, and done faster than 40 days. 3 real chars you can avg 550 a day likely, each going separately. 30 days or so.

Are you guys actually parsing your damage, or are you just eyeballing and saying they suck?

[newmonkey]

Macross why is it you think its ok for empyreans to have very strong weapon skills aswell as a very strong aftermath yet you feel relic weapon skills should be left were they are because some relics have a good aftermath ?

There is nothing wrong with relic holders wanting there relic ws dmg numbers to be equal to empyrean ws numbers you keep going on about bravura and its aftermath, last i checked war can rock a huge chunk of haste now with -pdt gear, metatron does terrible damage compared to ukon and it's a complete and utter joke something needs to be done.

If im wrong and you arn't saying the above then i appologise but it is how you come across.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In Excal's case, combination of Eyeballing and other factors (possibly including improperly geared). Even then, at 95 KoR's damage compared to Vorpal is close, but as long as accuracy isn't an issue Vorpal still has an edge over it.

M Torment is better now than it was at 75 and outside abyssea does better than Raging (without BR up).

[Unleashhell]

In Excal's case, combination of Eyeballing and other factors (possibly including improperly geared). Even then, at 95 KoR's damage compared to Vorpal is close, but as long as accuracy isn't an issue Vorpal still has an edge over it.

M Torment is better now than it was at 75 and outside abyssea does better than Raging (without BR up).

Dude they aren't even close. And trust me I got the gear to go with it. I'm not one of these people that get a relic with crappy gear. I get gear first before a relic. My setup has good ACC along with a balance on modifiers and ATT.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You're going to have to post averages then, I have KoR fairly close to Vorpal outside in optimal sets, but still lagging slightly.

If you're trying to compare to CDC well that's just a total loss.

[macross]

I compare bravura and ukko cause that what I see every day in my ls raids. We don' do abyssea, haven't in many months. All we do is new dynamis, some woe, and mostly VW. I see amano apoc bravura all comparing well to ukon. War usualy wins parses, but that's just cause war are war. Metatron can beat ukon, due to ukons dying etc, or when you use your 2h. Our last win, metatron was #1 with a 4300 ws as high, but the 2 ukons did die. Even so it still beat out kaiten and apoc and vere.

[Insaniac]

Didn't read the full thread forgive me if someone mentioned these things already.

I'll talk a bit about Mercy Stroke because I'm a Mandau4Lyfe.

MS is a great WS. It's got a solid mod and a decent aftermath. If I were to boost it without breaking it I would increase the base fTP to 4.0 and have in scale with TP similar to Rudra's. I would also change the aftermath by either a) Increasing the crit rate boost from 5% to 20% or b) Increasing the crit rate boost to 10% and add a crit damage boost of 10% that applies to the WS as well. I think option b may encroach a bit on Varja's territory.

A little off subject since this is about WSs but as far as blanket changes I would definitely change relic damage procs so that they would work on TAs and DAs. Really beyond that the issue with each relic and WS should be addressed individually because blanket buffs would only overpower some and leave others underpowered.

[Kaizersan]

Actually judging from Tanaka way of doing things I believe that Relic and Mythic ws will not be adjusted and the reason being is the new merit ws in some cases are close to emp damage and can be used by any weapon of that type thus giving relic and mythic holders access to a strong ws.

[Soidisant]

In all honesty, I don't feel the issue is really with Relics. Sure, some of them could do with tweaks to their aftermaths (e.g. Gungnir) and it would be nice if their was some consistency (i.e. hidden effect working on DA and TA) but other than that they're already pretty good.

The underlying problem for me is that some Empyrean WS'es are so fundamentally ridiculous that they overshadow any weapon that doesn't have access with them. It's not like all Empyreans demolish their Relic counterpart, it's only the ones with overpowered WS'es. And there's the real risk that if you buff Relics to match the top tier Empyreans, it would make the vast majority of Empyreans redundant.

Ideally I would have liked to see Relic WS'es damage boosted to levels just below that of Ukko's and Smite OR given a special property like partially ignoring level correction to help them keep up against higher tier mobs. Then to level the playing field for the weaker Empy's, have their meritable WS be on a similar damage level to Ukko's/Smite.

[Alerith]

I'm currently neither a Relic nor an Empyrean holder (34/50 Helms of Briareus!!!)

That being said, I started serious work on Almace last week, and here I am now finishing up the Helms stage. I've done all this with the help of a single friend, pick up groups and no linkshell.

The friend who comes with me is working on Kannagi and we are splitting helm drops. But in less than three weeks, I will have the level 80 Almace done, and that's while being lazy and going to get the NMs and helms at my own leisure AND while splitting helm drops. Granted the level 80 version is useless, Sobek skins aren't exactly Sins of Indignation.

You can't do this as easily with a Relic. To draw a fair comparison, I'll use the Relic sword, Excalibur. The time it would take to get an Excalibur is much longer, assuming you don't pour out of pocket for currency, and if you loaf around, you're only going to add to that already extensive time.

The overall time and effort required for a 75 Relic surpasses a that of an 85 Empyrean. You're looking at, MAYBE, a month of leisure work for an 85 Empy. You're still looking at 3+ Months of leisure work for a Relic. If you go super hardcore on both, you can probably get an Empy done in three days. For a relic, you're still looking at weeks if not over a month.

I think the only empy that can be considered comparable to a relic in time is Ochain, simply because of the Colorless Souls stage, and even then that's stretching it.

I agree that Relic WS should be stronger, and the weapons themselves better. They are the original "Ultimate Weapons" and if they end up the better of the three Ultimates at 99, I would be perfectly fine with that, even while holding an Almace.

[macross]

No, if you are super hardcore you can finish empy in the same amount of time. You would just find ways to make gil and buy the currency to supplement the currency you can farm. Empy is just faster reward, but total effort will be less. I said this before, if you had no time limit in dynamis, you could easily farm it in the same time frame.

Right now, 1 relic cost around 75m due to the over farming of dynamis due to the easiness of it. I could easily make relic #2 by buying. It would take me 11 days, only because of the artificial wait times.

Even so, you will have a lvl 95 relic vs an 85 empy with the same leisure time. Likely will have 99 relic before 90 empy if you are leisurely as well.

Everyone always fails to include the time you spend camping the 25+ nm's before you even start to camp briareus. If you
're talking lesiure time, with and avg repop time of 90 minutes per nm, just how many hours do you spend camping those? or are you simply understating the time you actually do spend playing every day. At least farming dynamis, I know it's only 2 hours a day. I know exactly how many coins i will get on avg, based on time put in.

Also your quantification of 'leisure time' is very vague. Is that 1 hour a day? 4 hours? 6 hours? How long did it take you to make parties to kill the VNMS? how long did it take you to get t2 pops to spawn them? How long do you take to farm 1 briareus and to kill it every day? how many do you do per day? You maybe done with the 80 stage in 3 weeks you say, but sobek is gonna be another challenge for 2 people. Good luck doing the 90 version without farming cruror to brew as well as getting the actual pop sets. You might recruit others to help, but that will just add to the total man hours you spend. 2 people farming dynamis daily can complete one within 50 days or less. The more man hours you add the faster it becomes. Same with relic, same with empy.

[newmonkey]

Ok just to point out most relics are between 150-200 mil to flat out buy i wish i could get one for 75 mil.

[Brolic]

Ok just to point out most relics are between 150-200 mil to flat out buy i wish i could get one for 75 mil.

it's about 139 to just outright buy it, but if you cant pull at least 200 coins a night you're doing it entirely wrong.

[Kitkat]

I could easily make relic #2 by buying. It would take me 11 days, only because of the artificial wait times.
Remark is contradicted by the following:


Everyone always fails to include the time you spend camping the 25+ nm's before you even start to camp briareus. If you
're talking lesiure time, with and avg repop time of 90 minutes per nm, just how many hours do you spend camping those? or are you simply understating the time you actually do spend playing every day. At least farming dynamis, I know it's only 2 hours a day. I know exactly how many coins i will get on avg, based on time put in.

Can't use biased arguments on one end of the spectrum to make your point. If you are going to do comparisons you need to drop the "artificial wait times" between NM spawns because these are the same as being restricted to 2hours per day in dynamis. Additionally, multiple people can do the trials at once (up to a full alliance) with different weapons, but this can be compared to relic WS trials (aside from they must all be same weapon) to complete trials. See how that works? Similarities negate one another, you can't subtract it from one side and not the other.


Now, given what I know about relic hidden and emp aftermath, not just from practice but from sources, I decided to do a little number crunching with a hypothetical base, 15%ta, 12%da, and 1000 attack rounds. To remove biased view I adjusted emp aftermaths by 60% (lower) to account for the fact they are only up 60% of the time in opposition of relics always there hidden. I compared the two as it currently is, where hidden only procs on first attack per round. I also listed what the outcomes would be if adjusted to work on all attacks of the weapon per round. I then compared this to higher effects of aftermath, but did not do further adjustments based on the fact it is still possible to keep the higher aftermaths up roughly 60% of the time (with all source haste this can raise up to ~78% but would produce a highly biased hypothetical).

Attack rounds: 1000
Triple attack: 15%
Double attack: 12%
Total attacks: 1270

Low end base: 50
ODD base: 100
30% activation at 100%: 381
60% Adjustment: 228
Total: 22800
OTD base: 150
13% activation rate per round: 130
Total:19500

Relic change

If 13% on all hits:
OTD procs: 165
Total: 24750

ODD @20% on all hits: 254
Total Damage: 25400

Occ 2.5 at 15%: 190
total damage: 23750

Emp comparison at higher aftermath

Lv2 Aftermath ~40%: 508
60% Adjustment: 304
Total Damage:30400

Lv3 Aftermath ~50%: 635
60% adjustment: 381
total damage: 38100

Acknowledgement of possible errors: This is all based on a hypothetical base number and assumes either "brick wall" fight or a stream of mobs being supplied removing downtime/wasted aftermath durations. Additionally, this assumes that relic hidden and emp aftermath react as multipliers on the damage dealt, rather than base damage being multiplied then factored into the remaining equation of damage dealt. If the base is multiplied for hidden, but ODD aftermath is multiplied on the damage dealt this would make relic hidden noticeably stronger on high def mobs, but explain why it appears weaker on overall fodder. I can not find trust worthy sources that state one way or the other at this point but will acknowledge this as a potential error anyway. I also acknowledge that the 2.5x hidden percentage may be wrong, I remember seeing that it was either 15% or 17%, but had trouble relocating the post on it.

That said, if it is found that both are factored in the same way then the fix would even out relic with emp, but emp would still have the potential to be stronger than relic due to higher scaling aftermath effect where as relic hidden is static due to being "always active" just lower proc rate.

[Crysten]

Are you guys actually parsing your damage, or are you just eyeballing and saying they suck?

This. The consensus here, from my point of view, is "Relics currently suck simply because their WS is bad." This is obviously the case with a fair few weapons - Gungnir, Spharai, Kikoku and...maybe Yoichi all fit in this category.

For any other weapon, can any relic holder here produce any substantial evidence to the contrary, be it a parse, gear sets and so on, that shows that their overall damage output is significantly less than an Empyrean on any mob that matters? I've seen no compelling arguments for either side, thus far.

The only weapons people seem to have a huge problem with are those with crit based WS, it seems.

That being sad, I totally agree that the hidden effect procs should be put onto double and triple attacks though, at the very least.

[Kitkat]

Care to define "mob that matters"? Pretty broad or narrow term depending on who you ask.

[Greatguardian]

Tier 3 Part 2 Voidwatch - either path, Neo Dynamis Dreamlands NMs, can't think of much else that can't be killed by a PUP+SMN combo being run by chimpanzees with downs syndrome.

[Atomic_Skull]

All these AGI INT etc. mods for DRK and DRG should go period. STR is where it's at.

You can say that about every WS though. If every physical damage WS had the optimal modifier then every WS would be STR modified.

That's why Mercy Stroke was the best dagger WS for so many years, out of all dagger WS it was the only one with a large STR modifier. Twastar only beats Mandau because of ODD and because Rudra's has a larger fTP and scales with TP.

If they follow your advice every single physical damage WS would basically be the same WS with a different animation, unless you're saying that DRK and DRG should get special treatment.

[Atomic_Skull]

Right now, 1 relic cost around 75m due to the over farming of dynamis due to the easiness of it. I could easily make relic #2 by buying. It would take me 11 days, only because of the artificial wait times.

No.

10,000 * 17,900 = 179,000,000

[macross]

Maybe on your server. Currency is around 5-7k on mine. Everyone farms, lots of undercutting. Also subtract 3000 from that total, unless you plan on just tossing that extra 3000.

You can easily kill any VW mob with a bunch of pup/smns. You just won't get any good loot ^^

Kitkat, your math assumes you will be constantly fighting, with no amensia or any other status debufs. Having always on dbl/triple dmg is better than having to rely on aftermath. Most will ws at 100 tp, and that's only 30 sec. That wears off pretty damn fast with even a little slack, or when you cannot engage due to no mobs to melee, or amnesia or sleepga or whatever stops you.

[Kitkat]

That is why there is an adjustment of 60% which lowers the proc rate to similar of relics (60% adjustment on 30% aftermath is 18%), but emp aftermath still activates on all hits. I could also factor in the possibility to die, petrify, paralyze, but these are not constant and not something that occurs on all mobs which distorts data. I already listed that it was constant stream or proverbial "brick wall" mechanics, but the truth of the matter still stands as accurate representation. At most you are without aftermath at 100% use for only 10-15% of the time, the remaining 25-30% adjustment is to account for inactivity and the fact it requires the WS to gain the effect.

I have an Emp, this is not outside of improbable and what you mention is only within a small window of which Relics have similar issues that can lower the overall chance of hidden activation..including 95% accuracy cap. What I put up is a blanket representation, what you want is a small window with variables that are inconsistent as not every mob does this, nor is ever player dumb enough to always be in range of the effects due to the possibility of dying.

[newmonkey]

5-7 k dyna currency you say Macross lol maybe we should all invade your server because on quetz and valefor i wish it was that cheap lol.

[Coldbrand]

You can say that about every WS though. If every physical damage WS had the optimal modifier then every WS would be STR modified.

That's why Mercy Stroke was the best dagger WS for so many years, out of all dagger WS it was the only one with a large STR modifier. Twastar only beats Mandau because of ODD and because Rudra's has a larger fTP and scales with TP.

If they follow your advice every single physical damage WS would basically be the same WS with a different animation, unless you're saying that DRK and DRG should get special treatment.

No not really, they might as well make every mod STR since whichever WS does have a STR mod is most likely to take over as the best WS. It's not exclusive to those two. I just know about Geirskogul and Redemption offhand.

[wish12oz]

I believe this will help equal relic weapon skills to closer to the empyrean / mythic counterparts.

Please stay on topic thanks.

I believe you are sorely mistaken about your beliefs that empyrean and mythic weapons and weapon skills are better then relic weapon skills. Some empyreans are good, some mythics are good, and some relics are good. Stop crying for one thing to be the best across the board. If you're going to make this arguement, then it should be for mythics to be the best, since they are much much harder to acquire then any relic or empyrean.


Twastar only beats Mandau because of ODD and because Rudra's has a larger fTP and scales with TP.

The people who are afraid to reveal who they are because they're wrong spew such great knowledge don't they?
PROTIP: Mandau is superior to Twastar all the time.


No.

10,000 * 17,900 = 179,000,000

Also: Dynamis currency is 8-9k and dropping on Odin. And relics don't all require 179k to make.
EDIT: In fact, I don't think any of them require 179k to make.

New Edit:



The overall time and effort required for a 75 Relic surpasses a that of an 85 Empyrean.

While this is true, why don't you notice that we're level 95 right now, and it's much harder to get any empyrean to 95 then any relic?

New new edit:

This. The consensus here, from my point of view, is "Relics currently suck simply because their WS is bad." This is obviously the case with a fair few weapons - Gungnir, Spharai, Kikoku and...maybe Yoichi all fit in this category.

I'm taking this to mean you think Gugnir is bad compared to the empyrean polearm. Well guess what, Gugnir is vastly superior to the empyrean polearm, because no matter which you have, you'll be using Drakesbane. And in so doing Gugnir still gets its hidden extra damage effect, higher base damage, and ACC that is probably useless, while the empyrean polearm gets... VIT? Lower base damage? .........Where'd the awesomeness of this weapon go?

Spharai's +counter can make it more useful then Vere when tanking, and from what I hear, the new H2H WS might be on par with Vsmite so this weapon is just looking better and better.

Yoichi's no enmity effect can easily make it more useful then Gandiva for some fights where the RNG doesn't want to make the mob move. (not that RNG is ever all that useful)

Kikoku is the only one you listed here that doesn't hold a candle to it's empyrean counterpart, unless the change to Shun makes it good. But hey, apparently the +attack on Kikoku will carry over if you offhand it now, so it's gonna be the best off-hand katana if nothing else. =3

[Chriscoffey]

5-7 k dyna currency you say Macross lol maybe we should all invade your server because on quetz and valefor i wish it was that cheap lol.
I have yet to see it be that on carbuncle for an average cost. I have saw that for a few singles when running across people but not something where you are buying 100's in that amount range on average. I might need to consider getting some myself if it is that cheap there.


While this is true, why don't you notice that we're level 95 right now, and it's much harder to get any empyrean to 95 then any relic?
No, it is about the same considering you can spam VW as much as your little heart desires. It just requires you buy plates or get lucky getting them yourself. I am almost positive they cave into the emo about the plates and make them drop more with new VW or something later. People are just hoarding up the items like they did when relics first came out so there isn't as many to go around.

I don't think it is hard to get relic or empyrean either to 95. Mythics are not really hard just more time than most will devote to "casual playing", however, I am doing one because I was doing TOAU long before abyssea came out with the quest.

[Cljader1]

No.

10,000 * 17,900 = 179,000,000

This is correct, and the price varies from server to server, but its anywhere from 150 -250 million gil and 179 mil could be considered the average price, my apoc was definitely over 200 mil when I completed it.

[Greatguardian]

Over 200Mil? Did you not get a 30 loan? Or were prices really that bad on Bismark?

[Cljader1]

Maybe on your server. Currency is around 5-7k on mine. Everyone farms, lots of undercutting. Also subtract 3000 from that total, unless you plan on just tossing that extra 3000.

You can easily kill any VW mob with a bunch of pup/smns. You just won't get any good loot ^^

Kitkat, your math assumes you will be constantly fighting, with no amensia or any other status debufs. Having always on dbl/triple dmg is better than having to rely on aftermath. Most will ws at 100 tp, and that's only 30 sec. That wears off pretty damn fast with even a little slack, or when you cannot engage due to no mobs to melee, or amnesia or sleepga or whatever stops you.

currency is NOT 5k on our server and we are on the same server, I never brought currency for 5k, the cheapest I seen it was 7k (very very rare) and currency is mostly between 8-11k.

[Alerith]

currency is NOT 5k on our server and we are on the same server, I never brought currency for 5k, the cheapest I seen it was 7k (very very rare) and currency is mostly between 8-12k with the average being around 10k

In before Macross claims he "knows a guy who sells it cheap to him."

[Ragni]

macross u post some nice crap, maybe its time to stop?

[Insaniac]

PROTIP: Mandau is superior to Twastar all the time. Not really. Mandau and Twashtar are probably the most well balanced emp and relic counterparts. Twashtar is better than Mandau in about as many situations as Mandau is better than Twashtar which is how it should be for all emps/relic/mythics. None of them should really outshine the other by a mile in any situation but it would be fine for them to have places that they shine ever so slightly. As it is there are some places where relics are pretty close or slightly better than emps but there are also places where those same emps make their relic counterparts look like AH weapons. There are obvious exceptions like Farsha and Redemption.

[Greatguardian]

In before Macross claims he "knows a guy who sells it cheap to him."

This actually isn't that uncommon, even on our server. I sell HMPs cheap to a few friends of mine.

[Dew]

Dunno why everyone is complaining about relics so much. Anything under lv95 isn't finished. It's all about the final product, which is soon to be Lv99 in few days. So really it doesn't matter what it is till then. Once you get to the final product then compare which is harder to get. No relic is 200mil or even close. You get back 30 100s, so even if you buy them you don't spend anything on those last 30. Unless your going to toss them once you get them back.

All of this relic q.q is just dumb. Yes, some of the ws's could use little work. The aftermaths on some relic could also use a look over, but they are far from being the hardest to get. If anything it should be Mythics that complain about so much work for lower grade weapons then relic/empyrean.(Aside from Nirvana and maybe a few others.)

With all that being said Relics, Empyreans, and Mythics all have their ups and downs. No single class of the three is better. Each weapon has different uses. They aren't all made to deal 99,999 damage per ws. Always the same thing, if something doesn't do as much or more damage then the other they think it needs to be even better. People need to get over it and if so and so weapon is better spend less time complaining on the forums and go get it. You want to have the best, then go get the best. Complaining isn't increasing your relics, mythics, or empyreans damage.

[Insaniac]

I agree that things might change at 99 but:


Yes, some of the ws's could use little work. The aftermaths on some relic could also use a look over.This is a monumental understatement. Most of the relic WSs are unusable and most of the aftermaths are so pointless that they don't even make you think twice about using the already vastly inferior WS.


If anything it should be Mythics that complain about so much work for lower grade weapons then relic/empyrean.As of the OAThrice update at 95 most Mythics are amazing and/or broken. SE failed to get the utility aspect right on some of the utility weapons but most Mythics are now well worth the effort. Also what about asking for relics to be buffed means mythics can't get buffed too? They aren't mutually exclusive so you guys can stop singing that tune. If mythics want to complain then they have every right to do so in a different thread.

[Crysten]

I'm taking this to mean you think Gugnir is bad compared to the empyrean polearm. Well guess what, Gugnir is vastly superior to the empyrean polearm, because no matter which you have, you'll be using Drakesbane. And in so doing Gugnir still gets its hidden extra damage effect, higher base damage, and ACC that is probably useless, while the empyrean polearm gets... VIT? Lower base damage? .........Where'd the awesomeness of this weapon go?

Nono, I totally agree with you. I speak only based on Empyrean WS vs Relic WS, as the OP is pretty much focused on. Gierskogul could totally use a bit of a boost vs. Camlann's Torment (lolAGI mods and all that), but in the grand scheme of things it shouldn't even matter since any DRG with half a brain is gonna be using Drakesbane anyway.

But hey, let's keep on bitching just because Gierskogul sucks. As I mentioned in my previous posts, relics need to be looked at from the bigger picture.


Spharai's +counter can make it more useful then Vere when tanking, and from what I hear, the new H2H WS might be on par with Vsmite so this weapon is just looking better and better.

With how the devs are clawing away at the new WS, I'd reserve judgement on that, personally until we;re absolutely sure that isn't getting nerfed either, heh. Totally agree all the same, though. Spharai offers the tanking utility and paired with Shijin (which was pretty damn consistant from my pratting about on the test server) it has the potential to be a great contender vs. Vere's sheer DD output from a utility point of view.

Again, people'll keep bitching just because Final Heaven isn't useful, though.


Yoichi's no enmity effect can easily make it more useful then Gandiva for some fights where the RNG doesn't want to make the mob move. (not that RNG is ever all that useful)

Here I'm in the dark a bit, since the only guy I know with a Yoichi is a tight ass and, for some reason, uses Scorpion and Demon arrows with it (yes, I don't know what's going on in his head, either.) As such, I've never seen a fully capable Namas. Of course, the enmity surpression isn't going to get you murdered and that can only be a good thing in the right hands.


Kikoku is the only one you listed here that doesn't hold a candle to it's empyrean counterpart, unless the change to Shun makes it good. But hey, apparently the +attack on Kikoku will carry over if you offhand it now, so it's gonna be the best off-hand katana if nothing else. =3

When did they remove the off hand penalty? :o Not gonna hold my breath on Kikoku but yeah, that's the only one that gets a kick in the nuts compared to Empyreans at the moment anyway.

[Kitkat]

Offhand penalty is currently removed only on the test server. This only applies to the +att however. Add effects do not proc and neither does hidden, so in that sense there is still lock downs (one reasonable, other not so much since only one weapon has a strong add effect). As far as main server it still stands as only a dmg/delay weapon with no other visible stats working in off hand.

[Unleashhell]

I believe you are sorely mistaken about your beliefs that empyrean and mythic weapons and weapon skills are better then relic weapon skills. Some empyreans are good, some mythics are good, and some relics are good. Stop crying for one thing to be the best across the board. If you're going to make this arguement, then it should be for mythics to be the best, since they are much much harder to acquire then any relic or empyrean.

First off nobody is crying, you need learn to read my OP and every other post I made. I never said relic weapon skills need to be the best. I said they need to be more on par with the counterparts. You live in a fantasy world if you think they are. Do you own a relic by chance? As stated in my OP, I'm looking for people WITH relics to reply, not people chiming in because they don't want their Emp weapons to be overshadowed at 99.

[Crysten]

First off nobody is crying, you need learn to read my OP and every other post I made. I never said relic weapon skills need to be the best. I said they need to be more on par with the counterparts. You live in a fantasy world if you think they are. Do you own a relic by chance? As stated in my OP, I'm looking for people WITH relics to reply, not people chiming in because they don't want their Emp weapons to be overshadowed at 99.

Because a topic filled with the opinions of relic holders isn't going to be biased over one with input from everyone. Gotcha.

[Unleashhell]

Because a topic filled with the opinions of relic holders isn't going to be biased over one with input from everyone. Gotcha.

And your also included in my previous post. There is nothing wrong with what I asked in my OP that relic holders give feedback on their relic weapon. The OP was not a tit for tat on what weapon is easier to make like all the people pushing it off topic. Its about people who have relics that can give good solid feedback is not asking for alot. The OP is not asking to be overpowered, its not asking to be "the best", its not asking to find out which is easier to make. Its about solid information of adjustments that would improve relic weaponskills as a whole. But as usual you and others just chime in going off topic. Read the OP and compare WS to WS and nothing else.

I don't care which is easier to make, its irrelevant. You guys can fight all day about that on some other post. If you would like I'll take the time out to start one so you all can do argue about it someplace other then here.

[Greatguardian]

Working off the assumption that Relic players understand their weapons more than others is just going to get you into trouble.

Out of all 3 weapon types, Relics were always by far the most prone to "Any moron with a fish bot or a shell full of retard AF slaves can get one" syndrome. There are definitely solid Relic holders, but they're hardly an indicator of knowledge, even about Relic WS/weapons themselves. Trying to blow smoke about "Only relic holders responding" just antagonizes people who would otherwise be able to offer more constructive input on the topic.

And, of course, there's the obligatory "90% of Relic owners are bloody retarded". It's true. Don't even try to deny it. The 10% that isn't would benefit far more from input from non-retarded players without relics than the other 90% of retarded players with them.

[Unleashhell]

Working off the assumption that Relic players understand their weapons more than others is just going to get you into trouble.

Out of all 3 weapon types, Relics were always by far the most prone to "Any moron with a fish bot or a shell full of retard AF slaves can get one" syndrome. There are definitely solid Relic holders, but they're hardly an indicator of knowledge, even about Relic WS/weapons themselves. Trying to blow smoke about "Only relic holders responding" just antagonizes people who would otherwise be able to offer more constructive input on the topic.

And, of course, the obligatory "90% of Relic owners are bloody retarded". It's true. Don't even try to deny it. The 10% that isn't would benefit far more from input from non-retarded players without relics than the other 90% of retarded players with them.

Which the same can be said about the Emp holders. This is a debate that can go on all day. I'm just trying to stay on my topic. As always I like your no BS fair replies to any topic on these forums.

[Greatguardian]

Which the same can be said about the Emp holders. This is a debate that can go on all day.

Who's comparing the two? Not me. When I look at Emp WS, do I say "Emp holders Only, prz!"? Nah. It's not a debate. It's a statement of fact. I know more about Relics than 90%+ of Relic holders and I'd laugh hysterically at the suggestion of making one for myself. I'm not that dumb. They are absolutely not worth my time - never have been, and never will.

Honestly, Relics are pretty awesome weapons in their own right, they could have been fine if the Merit WS didn't suck donkey tits. Spharai is in the best place it's ever been right now, since Shijin Spiral pulls ahead of Verethragna if and only if you have a Relic. Some Relics are still in great shape. Others? Not so much. There's only so much that can be thrown around on topic, though. Relic WS and Aftermaths are actually fairly unimportant. The important thing is that they can keep up with Empyreans offensively, independent of what WS they use. Relic ODD/OTD not being tied to a WS gives them this freedom.

Screw Relic WS, I'd say. As long as there's a WS worth using with a Relic that brings it up to Emp level, they'd be alright. Mythic is just going to be uberbroken forever though.

[Crysten]

And your also included in my previous post. There is nothing wrong with what I asked in my OP that relic holders give feedback on their relic weapon. The OP was not a tit for tat on what weapon is easier to make like all the people pushing it off topic. Its about people who have relics that can give good solid feedback is not asking for alot. The OP is not asking to be overpowered, its not asking to be "the best", its not asking to find out which is easier to make. Its about solid information of adjustments that would improve relic weaponskills as a whole. But as usual you and others just chime in going off topic. Read the OP and compare WS to WS and nothing else.

I don't care which is easier to make, its irrelevant. You guys can fight all day about that on some other post. If you would like I'll take the time out to start one so you all can do argue about it someplace other then here.

You've not read my last few posts in this topic well at all, have you? I've made my points clear enough that some weapons need buffing, some don't. The only rebuttals I've seen are "lol, you're wrong, my relic is shit" with nothing but a "trust me, I have a relic!" as a supporting argument.

I've already said this enough; WS to WS comparisons and nothing else are a hugely flawed, biased comparison between both sets of weapons. As an example, you're telling me, with a straight face, that a Bravura WAR pulling out 3-5k Metatron Torments with capped Haste, full PDT and a 10-20% Occassionally 2.5x damage proc isn't completely friggin' broken given the amount of time it takes to make one compared to an Ukon?

Why does anyone even care about Relic WS strength if you have an alternative that puts out better damage anyway?

[Insaniac]

Why would someone care if the weaponskill on the weapon they spent 130mil worth of currency on is garbage when they can just use Raging Rush like every other joker with an AH axe? Did you really just ask that?

[Greatguardian]

Why would someone care if the weaponskill on the weapon they spent 130mil worth of currency on is garbage when they can just use Raging Rush like every other joker with an AH axe? Did you really just ask that?

If using Raging Rush with an extremely high damage weapon with +40 accuracy (Attack in 1-handers case, which is a lot better most of the time) keeps up with Ukko's Fury with a lower damage weapon, what's the big deal?

Bravura would also be significantly more powerful during Mighty Strikes, where they are able to spam Upheaval and keep their ODD on while Ukon is forced to use Ukko's Fury occasionally if they want their ODD aftermath.

Relics offer increased versatility. Their particular WS doesn't need to be their best DD WS because they aren't locked to their Relic WS in order to deal damage the way Emps are.

[wish12oz]

Relics offer increased versatility. Their particular WS doesn't need to be their best DD WS because they aren't locked to their Relic WS in order to deal damage the way Emps are.

This is the correct answer.


First off nobody is crying, you need learn to read my OP and every other post I made. I never said relic weapon skills need to be the best. I said they need to be more on par with the counterparts. You live in a fantasy world if you think they are. Do you own a relic by chance? As stated in my OP, I'm looking for people WITH relics to reply, not people chiming in because they don't want their Emp weapons to be overshadowed at 99.

I could care less what happens to any weapons on the way to or at 99, I will bother to get the best one if it's worth the effort and time required whenever it changes. Relics at 75 were not worth it for anything I played, so I didn't bother. And as other people said, it's better to have people who know what they're talking about reply, even if they don't have a certain item.

[Kitkat]

So the whole source of the argument is based on one jobs ability to do intense damage with a WS that isn't relic or emp during 2hour? Newer content, since this is where everyone wants to base everything anyway, you use 2hour do all your awesome damage then what? Tell everyone to wait while you go to abyssea and reset 2hour so you can do it again? What about other jobs who don't have a 2hour that turns everything into crit damage? What about others who won't unlock the WS on that job to instead boost the performance of other non-emp/relic jobs.

I see your point, but I fail to see how you can use this as a blanket effect to explain away all the WS when the same situation doesn't apply to every job or ws.

[newmonkey]

You've not read my last few posts in this topic well at all, have you? I've made my points clear enough that some weapons need buffing, some don't. The only rebuttals I've seen are "lol, you're wrong, my relic is shit" with nothing but a "trust me, I have a relic!" as a supporting argument.

I've already said this enough; WS to WS comparisons and nothing else are a hugely flawed, biased comparison between both sets of weapons. As an example, you're telling me, with a straight face, that a Bravura WAR pulling out 3-5k Metatron Torments with capped Haste, full PDT and a 10-20% Occassionally 2.5x damage proc isn't completely friggin' broken given the amount of time it takes to make one compared to an Ukon?

Why does anyone even care about Relic WS strength if you have an alternative that puts out better damage anyway?

Hi just wanted to point out a few things bravura is miles behind ukon is dps let's start with a few things firstly it only has odd not 2.5. Metatron torment does around 1.5k it does not get anywere close to 3-5k ws i wish it did but no not even close. Ukon users can reach 26 - pdt taken whilst spamming ukkos fury with capped haste, wearing the following:

Mekita toshugia +1 body -8
Twilight torque neck -5
Metallion mantle back - 4
Chersos helm -4

That above is - 21 pdt with capped haste spamming ukkos.

Bravua needs a huge dps boost to even begin to catch upto ukonvsara.

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's okay, with Bravura you cap haste/PDT/MDT and keep 6 hit, evasion/defense down the enemy occasionally, so you deal less damage (your allies will deal more) and take less damage than with Ukon!

[Greatguardian]

So the whole source of the argument is based on one jobs ability to do intense damage with a WS that isn't relic or emp during 2hour? Newer content, since this is where everyone wants to base everything anyway, you use 2hour do all your awesome damage then what? Tell everyone to wait while you go to abyssea and reset 2hour so you can do it again? What about other jobs who don't have a 2hour that turns everything into crit damage? What about others who won't unlock the WS on that job to instead boost the performance of other non-emp/relic jobs.

I see your point, but I fail to see how you can use this as a blanket effect to explain away all the WS when the same situation doesn't apply to every job or ws.

I never said "All Relics are fine", I simply rolled with Great Axe because that was the example he brought forth in his post.

There are quite a few that are still quite viable, Relic WS or no Relic WS. H2H (at 99), Gun, Bow, GKT, Scythe, Great Sword, Club, Great Axe, Shield, Horn, and Dagger are all very well off.

Sword is okay, but could really use some work.

Katana, Staff, Axe, and Polearm are complete and utter shit and need some serious rethinking.

Looking at it that way, the majority of relics are okay - and almost all of the big DD relics are still doing well. Polearm is the only pure DD relic that really stands out as utter shit, and Katana is just sorta sad. No one but GuttlerBSTs care about Axe, though I guess they could use a bone from time to time, and lolClaustrum all the way to the bank.

So no, I don't really think all Relic WS need an overhaul. Many Relic weapons are so innately powerful outside of their WS, that they are actually at an advantage in some cases by being able to pick and choose which WS they want to use without losing out on their OTD/ODD. Mandaus should be using Mercy Stroke because it is amazing, but there's nothing wrong with a Ragnarok user spamming Resolution. If Raggy with Resolution can stand up to a Caladbolg using Torcleaver, is there really a need to mess with Scourge?

That's all I'm trying to get at.

[newmonkey]

Ukon can cap haste with at least -26 pdt, i'd have to check the magic damage sets off hand to compare all whilst blowing bravura away in both ws damage and dot thanks to a 30-50% odd aftermath.

Bravura needs a huge dps as i said to even it out with ukon a 30% built in odd would be a good start instead of 20%

95 Bravura - DMG:146 Delay:488 Accuracy+35 - 20% odd - Aftermath 20.4% dmg taken.

95 Ukonvasara - DMG:144 Delay:482 STR+17 30-50% odd aftermath

So the str on the ukon actually puts it ahead in pure base dmg form, it blows it away in ws and dot and you think because bravura has the aftermath it does we don't have a problem lol ok.

[Prothscar]

You're taking the Accuracy+35, -30 Evasion procs, and 18.5% DEF down of Metatron Torment for granted.

If Ukonvasara caps haste with 26% PDT, Bravura caps haste with -46.4% PDT, -33.4% MDT, -33.4% BDT without counting Dark Rings.

So what you're really looking at is:

95 Bravura - DMG:146, Delay:488, Accuracy+35, Enemy Evasion -30, 20% chance of dealing 2x damage, -20.4% Damage Taken and Enemy DEF -18.5% from Metatron Torment

95 Ukonvasara - DMG:144, Delay:482, STR+17, 45% chance of dealing 2x damage and weak (5-10%) Slow effect from Ukko's Fury

[Insaniac]

If using Raging Rush with an extremely high damage weapon with +40 accuracy (Attack in 1-handers case, which is a lot better most of the time) keeps up with Ukko's Fury with a lower damage weapon, what's the big deal?

Bravura would also be significantly more powerful during Mighty Strikes, where they are able to spam Upheaval and keep their ODD on while Ukon is forced to use Ukko's Fury occasionally if they want their ODD aftermath.

Relics offer increased versatility. Their particular WS doesn't need to be their best DD WS because they aren't locked to their Relic WS in order to deal damage the way Emps are.
Bravura isn't the best example because metatron does have it's uses even if they are limited when you start factoring in fanatics drinks but a lot of relic WSs don't. The +40 acc is pointless on most mobs even with RCB if you can keep up stalwarts which everyone should be able to in any VW that you have any chance of winning. No part of any item that costs someone 130-300 mil(old prices) should be lacking in any way. Nor should any aspect of any emps suck like they do with Farsha and to a lesser extent Rhongo and Redemption. All of these weapons should be amazing in every way and a lot of relic WSs are simply pathetic as well as their aftermaths.

How long do you think mighty strikes lasts? If you're using mighty strikes chances are you are zerging and you are starting with 300% tp. Drop 1 300% ukko's for 50% odd on all hits vs Getting 1 extra upheaval and 16% 2.5x damage that doesn't work on DAs or TAs. Pretty bad argument. I won't argue against Bravura having it's uses outside of abyssea. It's a lot closer to Ukon than most relics are to their emps. But then you compare Ukon to Bravura almost anywhere but VW Ukon just completely crushes it. So they are pretty even one place and extremely unbalanced in favor of Ukon in others.

I can't understand where the resistance to relic WS buffs comes from other than wanting Emps to stay heads and tails above most relics in most situations.

Edit: I only used Raging Rush because there was so much Bravura talk already but my point still stands. If I spend the time and/or money finishing any ultimate weapon I want to use the WS for more than just PDT when fanatics is down. I don't think that's unreasonable.

[Kitkat]

Ukon can cap haste with at least -26 pdt, i'd have to check the magic damage sets off hand to compare all whilst blowing bravura away in both ws damage and dot thanks to a 30-50% odd aftermath.

Bravura needs a huge dps as i said to even it out with ukon a 30% built in odd would be a good start instead of 20%

95 Bravura - DMG:146 Delay:488 Accuracy+35 - 20% odd - Aftermath 20.4% dmg taken.

95 Ukonvasara - DMG:144 Delay:482 STR+17 30-50% odd aftermath

So the str on the ukon actually puts it ahead in pure base dmg form, it blows it away in ws and dot and you think because bravura has the aftermath it does we don't have a problem lol ok.

As much as I hate to jump to the otherside I can't ignore something that has this much biased reasoning. As I stated in prior post, you need to adjust aftermath to compensate for down time and the fact it needs WS to activate. After adjustments the ODD does percentage is roughly in the 18~30% region (lv1-3 aftermath). The only real positive they have with ODD aftermath is that unlike relic hidden, it has the ability to proc on all hits that weapon does.

In ideal circumstance you can adjust this to a high of 24~35%, and if you have regain from cor, sch, atmacite, it can scale to almost 80~85% of this. Once again though, that is highly circumstantial being as the absolute low can drop to less than that of relic if you want to add even more detrimental debuffs/possibilities.

While I am for adjustments to relics, I can't really back something that is based on perfect hypothetical circumstance. That is why I added adjustments on the post I made comparing the two while trying to maintain a medium ground.

[Insaniac]

I've never had any problem at all keeping at least a level 1 aftermath up at all times when I'm not proccing in VW. Ussually it's level 3 because of wings and that's often outside of ideal circumstance. Worst case you are fighting something like Kaggen with shitty amnesia AoEs and then you start seeing drops in ODD rate but you really shouldn't take that big of a hit unless he catches you right before you overwrite an aftermath that is about to wear. I can't imagine it ever getting as low as 18%.

[Greatguardian]

I could care less about Emps staying on top (which is still extremely relative). The issue is that you can't globalize Relic buffs. Some Relics are solid, others aren't. They're far less consistent than Empyreans, and some are still better for utility than pure damage - giving them both would be scary. Imagine if Yoichi could outdamage Gandiva while still generating near-null Enmity.

My point wasn't that Relics didn't need buffs, but rather than Relics need to be looked at much more closely than a simple across-the-board boost or a buff to Relic WS. Buffing some Relic WS +50% still won't make them worth using as a primary skill, and you'd still fall into the same trap that Empyreans fall into - only being able to use 1 WS effectively, even if that WS isn't the best.

Ukonvasara and Verethragna are good poster children for Empyrean powerhouses, but people often neglect to mention that Bravura and Spharai are pretty awesome Relics as well - Spharai moreso after tomorrow's update. When you look at the whole list, Mandau is still the best Dagger in the game, Annihilator destroys Armageddon, Yoichi is far more useful than Gandiva, Apocalypse destroys Redemption, Mjollnir has always been the top club by a mile, and Ragnarok should handily beat Caladbolg post-99.

The fact of the matter is, Emps are not globally on top. It's not even an isolated case or two either. Spharai is stronger than Verethragna, straight up. Many Relics are also far more useful than Emps due to the more varied nature of their WS/Aftermaths.

I think people in general really need to take a long, hard look at their Relics and this 99 update and figure out just how much weaker they really are. There are Relics that really need fixing - Emps too. It's just not a global thing. If we want to set aside Relics to fix, Kikoku, Gungnir, and Guttler easily have it the worst. Likewise, Redemption, Farsha, and Rhongomiant could use some serious work. These things should be handled individually, though. Simply "Buffing all Relics" will get us nowhere, and cause an even worse power gap in the system.

[Prothscar]

Problem being that people love to ignore the utility aspects of relics and what they offer to them/their group compared to an extra 1000~2000 or so damage on their weaponskills.

[Insaniac]

I think we are on the same page then GG. I agree that a global buff for relics would be asinine because it would break some and leave some in the realm of garbage. I even said that a few pages back. My mandau for instance is well balanced with Twashtar and needs very little. I would most like to see WS damage scale with TP and I would like my 3x damage to proc on additional hits. Beyond that it's fine. The relics that get to use their WS really don't have much to complain about and I have never truly complained about my Mandau. I really don't think anyone made the argument that all relics suck but that's what some people seem to think we are saying. This thread started with the intent to get peoples opinions on individual relic WSs and what they needed/wanted but like all other relic related thread sit got hijacked and turned into a relic vs. emp (hey what about mythics) thread.


Problem being that people love to ignore the utility aspects of relics and what they offer to them/their group compared to an extra 1000~2000 or so damage on their weaponskills.
I think a lot of people are overstating those effects as well.

[Kitkat]

@Insaniac

That is why it is a medium ground for ODD, the adjustments were meant to show that the possibility to go higher or lower exist for emp, but that even with hidden adjustments relic hidden did not compare because it is a low percentage constant static. In current status it shows this even more by being restricted to the first hit (a point we both agree on). People like to use very small windows to express overall performance, I was merely allowing for instances that fall outside of those windows because they are inconsistent variables that do change depending on situation and circumstance.

Nothing I said shows that is the over all average as each situation changes the average, just that it was a possible medium. Even with this assumed medium it doesn't negate the fact that relics still need adjustments since at this range of medium emp still come out on top, especially so in ideal circumstance. The primary reason for a 60% adjustment was to show that is how much it would need to be adjusted on average, all the time, just to eve consider that the change to relic hidden to become "too strong." As you stated, this is not an over all average, but it is a possiblity I wanted to touch on to show just how much of a difference there is between the ODD aftermath and an always active hidden.

Just because it is always active doesn't mean it is equal or even close to ODD aftermath unless you put strict limiters on it. I also wanted to account for the few emp that have WS that aren't ideal for use. Being in an LS were you see both relics and emps everyday, the middle ground has to be established if you want to even hope to have a worth while standing (unlike those who want to hijack the thread and use highly situational comparisons).

And at this point my cold is messing with my train of thought so I'm not sure if I make total sense the entire time here....

[macross]

I wish currency was 11-8k on bismark...funny how i've had my currency for less than that in my bazaar for 3 days now with 0 purchases. Maybe you need to play more and see all the shouts selling it for 5-7k now. All you see is the overpriced currency like I have in my baz and assume that's the going price. The stuff you see in rollanmart is the stuff people didnt buy! Just cause I put it at 10k and you see it doesn't mean that's the going price. It's there cause its not 8k and instantly purchased. If I put a HMP there for 200k, would you assume that's the going price too?

Relics don't cost 130-200m, mine cost me 0 gils. It only costs if you buy it. It's easily soloable.

And OP, I just finished my 75 relic (yoichi), so am I allowed to post now?

Bravura vs Ukkos, bravura will win when you are soloing mobs, so that's one case where bravura is stronger.

Twilight torque is 5% dt, not 10%.

Easy to farm HMP by spaming VW huh? I've done over 600 VW battles, over 200 Qilins alone, only gotten around 200 hmps ever. Unless you had crazy ammounts of CP and AN like me, or blow 20k gil per voidstone buying them, good luck spamming VW. I've spent all my free daily stones, 850k cp, 300k AN so far buying stones. The avg player has no where near that much to spend. I had the money, it still took me 1 month to find enough HMP to buy. I only had around 100 HMP i got from vw myself when I completed it, and that was with very little competition. Alot of people are buying them up now, and less and less doing t3 VW. Getting to be like alex, but not as bad.

Come tomorrow we'll have 99 available. Let's see how many 99 relics there will be vs 99 empys.

In a zerg situation, a bravura keeps up with Ukon easily. First off all when you zerg you will use sekkanoki, you won't ws at 300%. Well maybe you would, I don't. I'd rather pump out 2x 5k ws instead of 1. Dot dmg on both weapons is on par, I've parsed many zerg battles with 95 ukon vs 95 bravura. You'd be surprised. Heck apoc dot dmg keeps up with ukon easily. You normally see big numbers with ukon when blood rage and zerk is up. When it's down both ws are comparable, but ukon still easily stronger.

Anyhow you should have 1 war with brav 1 with ukon in your alliance, or one guy with both lol. Go make an ukon instead of whining. Or make that almace instead of the excalbur if all you care about is dps. My ls leader has all 3 weapons, and both shields, using them based on the situation and battle. I never hear him whining about how this suck and that sucks.

[Insaniac]

If you use 130 mil worth of currency to get something it still cost you 130 mil because you could have sold it and had 130 mil. Even if someone randomly walked up to you and gave you a relics worth of currency which you used to get a relic instead of spending months farming it, it still cost you 130 mil. Please never say relics are free ever again.

[macross]

That logic works both ways. Empys should cost millions too, because you could have sold those soulstones and t3 vnm spawns instead of making your ochain or harp? Could have sold all the glavoid shells moth wings and orthrus claws to buyers as well, thus ukon costs millions as well? Exping isn't free cause you are taking someones leech spot worth 200k?

If you won a relic from the moogle lotto, is that free then? Or should you have taken a 10000 currency and sold it?

Just cause others pay 130m, doesn't mean that's what it costs. I spent 0 gil on it, thus it's free. All it cost me was time and my monthly fees.

[Brook]

Apoc.

Make the haste aftermath counted as it's own type of haste or at least magic haste, putting it as gear haste in a time when capping gear haste is so easy ruins its main claim to fame.

Same ,agreed and thank you. The aftermath from apoc = where? almost all jobs get cap haste so what are we gaining other than the drain?

and SE if you not gona fix our relics at least remove the rare/ex from them so we can sell them >.> and buy pet foods which is realy worth more than the relics right now.

[Brolic]

Same ,agreed and thank you. The aftermath from apoc = where? almost all jobs get cap haste so what are we gaining other than the drain?

and SE if you not gona fix our relics at least remove the rare/ex from them so we can sell them >.> and buy pet foods which is realy worth more than the relics right now.


What you gained was the ability to wear attack gear in place of haste gear. i havent had an apoc past 75 but at 75 that was huge.

[newmonkey]

@Macross - considering the final upgrade for relics is higher than mythics i doubt were going to see any 99 weapons for a while unless its something silly for both like weapon kill shots again.

I think you must be the only guy i know who soloed his relic without buying any currency, grats to you on that but not many do and as for your currency remark, it sells really fast on my server for the prices i said and likewise the same on valefor were i have a alt.

Were going in circles here anyway so im done with this topic until after the update.

[Insaniac]

@ Macross

I wrote something up but it timed out and I lost it but basically yes, You are right. Anything that results in you not obtaining gil is the same as it costing you gil.

[Insaniac]

*New Magian trials for Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons have been delayed to allow time for proper balancing


to allow time for proper balancing


balancing


BARANCE!!

invisible!

[macross]

Just because you need 1000 item for relic doesn't mean it's harder. Likely the empy upgrades come from VW, whereas you can probably farm many of the relic upgrade items in dynamis every day. Now if they made all of them drop from VW, then relic will be harder. I'm assuming that's not the case. Neither upgrade items are rare or exclusive as well.

I'm pretty sure i'm not the only person to have farmed a relic. It's so easy people don't talk about it since they don't want it nerfed. I've got quite a few friends who farm along with me that are almost done with theirs too.

[Insaniac]

I didn't say it was harder. I'm just afraid of that word.

[Unleashhell]

*New Magian trials for Relic, Mythic, and Empyrean weapons have been delayed to allow time for proper balancing.
They are scheduled to be introduced to the test server in the near future and implemented in the release version in an additional version update.
The items required for the trials, however, have been introduced in advance in this version update.

Orz....

[ApocalypseNow]

When it comes to getting a relic or empy, and which is easier to obtain under current conditions. I would say it's all about perspective. One thing you have to take into consideration is what empy your getting. Some a lot easier to get then others. GA, Dagger I'm sorry, but your not going to get those done in a day and I would love to see someone solo one, (that means without dual box). Chances are you will have to get with a static and get 3-6 other empy's to get one of your own. This also means you have to rely on others and that can be a pain. With relic, well, I can solo one. 150+ currency a day solo, you can have one done in about 4 months. When your done with certain currency, you can sell it to buy more of what you need. With the 99 level cap, I'm sure I will be seeing a bigger return on my trips to Dynamis. I know there are a few other NM you have to kill to finish but they can be trioed. I feel bad for the people that worked real hard in the past to get a relic and now they feel like there getting ripped off. I do feel like they need to be boosted and I would love for them to match the empy.

To the topic, well just add some real nice hidden effects like increased double or tripple attack rates like 40%.

Oh and add DNC to Mandau please!!!!!!!!!!!! That way I will actually farm a relic instead of just stacking up gill.

GG if you read this, I really liked your post about balancing some emp's along with the relics.

[Kitkat]

Well..one change that did go through is Mandau works in offhand now......

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9714/confirmed12142011.png

[macross]

So much for heavy metal plates being alot easier. New Vw tiers dont even drop them, they only drop the new 99 upgrades.

[Unleashhell]

Well level 99 might get more people into VW that weren't before. Maybe it will help get more plates out in circulation and lower the price a bit. Prolly not by much but never know.

I still haven't found any info on the relic weapon upgrade items for what mobs they drop off.

[Atomic_Skull]

Well..one change that did go through is Mandau works in offhand now......

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9714/confirmed12142011.png

Not only that, check this out.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6301/mandau.jpg

[newmonkey]

Well Marcy boy least you know were to get your 99 upgrade items, still no clue on the dynamis ones and we need over 500 more than your empyrean ones.

[Atomic_Skull]

So much for heavy metal plates being alot easier. New Vw tiers dont even drop them, they only drop the new 99 upgrades.

It's way easier to get full spectral alinement now though, and there is a cumulative drop bonus to players for hitting the mob when it has been procced so that alone will probably increase the number of plates entering the server.

[Zemarin]

Or they could just make the Aftermath work with Any WS as long as the Relic is Equipped sparing us the trouble of using the Weak WS's.

[Kitkat]

Not only that, check this out.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6301/mandau.jpg

Zomg, NQ heca head!?! fail!

[Atomic_Skull]

Zomg, NQ heca head!?! fail!

I stopped using it once I got the Guy Fawkes mask, it never comes off now.

[Greatguardian]

Well..one change that did go through is Mandau works in offhand now......

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9714/confirmed12142011.png

This is confirmed as a bug and will be removed in an upcoming maintenance. What a farce.

[Kitkat]

This is confirmed as a bug and will be removed in an upcoming maintenance. What a farce.

Is that so? Source?

[detlef]

See "known issues" on Playonline site.

[Kitkat]

Yes of course....why would SE allow that? Let alone put in in their "Known issues" forum also ~rolls eyes~

[Unleashhell]

Is Arch DL the only confirmed place for relic 99 items to drop?

[Kitkat]

Dragging this back up to the first page since SE can't seem to get it through their head that totally locking all attributes in offhand and still keeping them partially locked when in mainhand isn't balanced...it is unbalanced when you allow other weapons to do the exact opposite.

And yes, the WS still need adjusting. When I can take a Rudra's to Pil and do 2.5~3k dmg, but barely break 1.5~2k with Mercy stroke and still maintain an aftermath of ODD that procs in all hits...there is something very unbalanced here. Now on top of doing lower damage the dagger isn't even that useful in offhand over a str/att dagger or similar enhancing offhand dagger due to being totally locked aside from dmg/delay attributes.