DRK and MP and Damage Dealing.

[Urteil]

Give Dark Knight quick casting Dark magic nukes analogous to holy.

.5 Second casting time, 100, and 150 mp respectively.

Darkness I
Darkness II

Etc.

This will give the MP of DRK a use in a DD role, take advantage of Occult Acumen, and allow us to use MP in a feasible way in solo, PvP, PvE, End-Game, Farming whatever - situations.

This will allow us to take advantage of our AF3 armor, Oneiros Belt and anything else that comes out enhancing OA.

This will also in some small way, make the new 96 WS Entropy, which does less damage than Guillotine - make sense.

[wish12oz]

I support this idea, I also think they should be cheap to cast, maybe 50 and 75 MP, do as much damage or more damage than a a melee hit from DRK while fully buffed, 15~ second recast times, and give 20 TP per spell cast. Since all this would make them actually worth casting.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I support this idea, I also think they should be cheap to cast, maybe 50 and 75 MP, do as much damage or more damage than a a melee hit from DRK while fully buffed, 15~ second recast times, and give 20 TP per spell cast. Since all this would make them actually worth casting.

50 MP would only return 5 TP, it'd need to cost 200 to get 20 TP back with just the natural OA.

[Deadvinta]

I fully support the anti-holy idea.

[Selzak]

Totally on board with this. It seems ridiculous that we don't have any practical nuking potential whatsoever on DRK.

Drain/Drain II would be good if the formulas and recast times weren't so outdated.

[Rezeak]

honestly something like needs to be added.

w/ entropy it'll make a clear difference in play styles when using GSD and SCY not to mention DRK would have a new niche ^^

[ManaKing]

Give Dark Knight quick casting Dark magic nukes analogous to holy.

.5 Second casting time, 100, and 150 mp respectively.

Darkness I
Darkness II

Etc.

This will give the MP of DRK a use in a DD role, take advantage of Occult Acumen, and allow us to use MP in a feasible way in solo, PvP, PvE, End-Game, Farming whatever - situations.

This will allow us to take advantage of our AF3 armor, Oneiros Belt and anything else that comes out enhancing OA.

This will also in some small way, make the new 96 WS Entropy, which does less damage than Guillotine - make sense.

What? A DRK that actually know what OA is and how it works? I'm impressed. /endsarcasm

Thumbs up for good ideas. I fully support this, especially with the high MP costs for these spells so you get the most out of them with OA.

[Saiken253]

Give Dark Knight quick casting Dark magic nukes analogous to holy.

.5 Second casting time, 100, and 150 mp respectively.

Darkness I
Darkness II

Etc.

This will give the MP of DRK a use in a DD role, take advantage of Occult Acumen, and allow us to use MP in a feasible way in solo, PvP, PvE, End-Game, Farming whatever - situations.

This will allow us to take advantage of our AF3 armor, Oneiros Belt and anything else that comes out enhancing OA.

This will also in some small way, make the new 96 WS Entropy, which does less damage than Guillotine - make sense.

^ This all day!

I have always wanted to do something more with my MP than just draining/aspiring/absorbing. I also think they should do equivalent damage to drain(or maybe a little more, seeing as how drain is 21mp to cast and i can have it do 450+) but if it IS spammable then I would concur less damage, but it should have it's own special affinity towards OA to give more TP than the current formula. While we're on the matter of spells, I have an Idea to make Endark more desirable to keep up full time: have it inhibit our hate threshold maximum. This would allow to keep whatever we're fighting in a party situation off of us and we can keep fighting uninhibitedly(I think it's about time we DRKs got some hate control). The hate threshold inhibition should be like, maximum hate attainable be 95% or something. So if hate is wiped from other people, it'll then go for the DRK and not the mages(if the mages are regulating their hate and being smart).

I like these supportive spells for DRK. We need more of them.

[Rohelius]

Yes a thousand times yes.

Go tell every DRK you know to stop being lazy and post feedback before 99 comes.

[Armangetto]

Well if SE gives us our drk magic fast cast and non decaying absorbs,(like they said months ago) also what Urteil is suggesting, casting between swings might become a reality. Baring high haste situations. Then it would make sense why they gave us Entropy.

[Armangetto]

Also boost Quiteus. That ws needs some major loving....

[Quetzacoatl]

Dark Magic Fast Cast and Anti-Holy spells?

Sign me up.

[Zatias]

Can I have it?

[Zeroe]

Yes, 100x Over. Just please SE, buff Entropy, its literally retarded to have our 60WS be better than our 96. Just saying.

[Kysaiana]

I like the idea of dark based nukes and always wondered why DRK's only way of dealing damage with dark magic was with drain spells. It would have to do more damage than blizzard III and have a much shorter casting time to be worthwhile though.

[Cljader1]

Yes sir, sign me up!

[Cljader1]

Blood Weapon JT that kicks in like a double attack would be nice also..

[solarus79]

Blood Weapon JT that kicks in like a double attack would be nice also..

A job trait that would occasionally absorb a target's HP would be EXACTLY what a DRK should have as a natural trait. And yes, PLEASE, anti-holy spell or "darkness" nuke. Shorten the casting time/recast of drains/aspirs.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Blood Weapon JT that kicks in like a double attack would be nice also..

Agreed 100%

[Sappho]

Some awesome suggestions

[Selzak]

Some awesome suggestions
Unfortunately they aren't new/nobody is listening.

[Chriscoffey]

Unfortunately they aren't new/nobody is listening.
A real kick in the nuts would be if they implemented the darkness based nukes then made everything dark resistant. This is the same thing they did with red mage. They give them awesome enfeebling then make it where you can't enfeeble a mob. I could see this being the case with dark knight.

[Rukkirii]

I just wanted to warp in here and let you know that we are thinking about lowering the casting time for dark magic. On top of that, we are also looking into DRK's magic usage.

Great ideas so far! Keep the feedback coming. ^_^

[Quetzacoatl]

Well that just rendered Selzak's comment meaningless

But still, we need to let SE know how to do this right!

[Zirael]

I just wanted to warp in here and let you know that we are thinking about lowering the casting time for dark magic. On top of that, we are also looking into DRK's magic usage.

Great ideas so far! Keep the feedback coming. ^_^
There are already 2 fencer jobs in this game strongly relying on magic with weak meele potential: Red Mage and Blue Mage. Red Mage is in terrible state regarding all aspects of the job, Blue Mage is faring slightly better. Why is the Dev team so intent on adding a third one to that lot? Why not make a strong meele (focused on meeleing) class supplemented with useful dark magic debuffs/buffs?

[Selzak]

Well that just rendered Selzak's comment meaningless

But still, we need to let SE know how to do this right!
If they seriously give some attention to DRK and realize it into an actual useful, unique melee/mage hybrid, I will:

Decorate a room with lovely ambiance.
Set a table and decorate it nicely.
Spend hours lovingly preparing, seasoning, and cooking a crow dinner.
Then finally, sit at that table all by myself and love every minute of eating my crow.



I just wanted to warp in here and let you know that we are thinking about lowering the casting time for dark magic. On top of that, we are also looking into DRK's magic usage.

Great ideas so far! Keep the feedback coming. ^_^

Steps for success when updating DRK:


1. Think realistically
Before you do anything, think about it in the actual context of the game. DRK has a lot of things that look good on paper but become superfluous and useless in application.

2. Let us use our toys
Look back at the Absorb-TP nerf. If it was too powerful, consider changing the recast or resist rate instead of just making it not worth the casting time or MP. A lot of the things that are supposed to set DRK apart amount to nothing more than novelties. For the longest time, Souleater and Last Resort (our two defining JA's) suffered this fate. THANK YOU for fixing that, now leave the JA's alone because we're fine and don't need any more superfluous things cluttering the list. Things like Drain (recast + formula), Drain II (recast), Absorb-TP (nerf into uselessness), Dread Spikes (hard duration- capping damage drained is fine, but the 1 minute duration no matter what is just annoying), Scarlet Delirium (no one is going to ever use this), Absorb-STAT spells (extremely out-dated and unnoticeable), and Elemental spells (absolutely useless in any realistic sense) have not been so lucky. The job is cluttered full of things that it has, but can't really do.

3. Define a role
DRK's identity for a long, long time was the Stun Knight. This was a legitimate role (albeit a somewhat weak one) that we would love to have back. Consider giving us a JA along the lines of Zeid's Abyssal Strike that stuns the enemy and does damage- it can be set to a 60 second recast with moderate damage (something like a melee attack, or less), no TP return, and an added Stun effect. In a tangled bunch of melee jobs fighting for supremecy, DRK doesn't need more melee damage if it's capable of something more. I sincerely hope that this is where DRK goes.

4. Realize the description
Absorb-Attri was a step in the right direction. The job needs more unique debilitating capabilities. The Absorb-STAT spells are a lost, dead art to DRK- consider giving them a considerable buff (or make the amount stolen go up and rate of decay go down scaling with level or something- finally capping at a set duration with no decay at level 99). DRK really needs something to set it apart here: consider giving DRK a currently unavailable, new way to hinder enemies. Something like Terror or Plague comes to mind; obviously balance would need to be taken into account, and it would require a bit of creativity to make it fit correctly...the point, though, is that DRK does need some kind of powerful debuff to bring to a PT that no other job can do better.

5. Be creative
En-Dark was a perfect add. Using magic to add to our damage in a unique way (it's unique in the context of melee jobs) is fantastic. No complaints whatsoever there, great job. Do more stuff like this. One thing that I posted a long time ago, and that I think most everyone is on board with, is the idea of giving DRK a 'Blood Weapon' trait that activates at a low rate and is susceptible to resists.

6. Open up the gates
Number 4 is, I think, by far the most important aspect to consider. However, the concept of the job seems to be that DRK can do melee damage and magic damage. To make this practical, DRK's nuking capabilities need a complete overhaul. DRK would do well to have one or two high-cost, quick-casting Darkness nukes. I don't think we need more than one to two of these, like Demi and Darkness or Darkness I and Darkness II...just two quick, practical spells for dark damage. Be creative with this stuff...the balance factor could be high resists instead of simply never letting us cast it. Require us to swap in a casting set if we want it to land fully on a regular basis. A big problem holding DRK's magic damage back, as everyone has been stating...forever, is the fact that whatever damage you do with a spell must include a subtraction of the damage you'd have done with your normal swings if you had not casted it. This, coupled with long recasts on spells like Drain and Drain II (which both deserve it for the damage/cost ratio...Drain II perhaps being a bit over-adjusted) make any damage DRK can do with its magic either impractical or inefficient. The Quick Magic trait, which would simply occasionally counteract the side-effects of this, would be perfect for DRK. Spells like Drain, Drain II, and Dread Spikes could become more than just a novelty with this trait.

7. Diversify
I love the idea of Greatsword being DRK's pure melee weapon and Scythe being the utility/hybrid tool of choice (with WS like Catastrophe, Entropy, and magic-based stuff that everyone hates). This is a very cool concept, and you might take it further by defining it with an early Job Trait that differentiates the two weapons. Solidify Greatsword as our pure melee, tough enemy weapon and Scythe as our utility, solo/small party oriented weapon.


Please just try to enjoy the job's concept for a moment and be creative with it...then realize it.

[Quetzacoatl]

I'd also like to suggest a Banish-style spell for DRK, but it weakens arcana defense instead of undead defense:
Demi
Demi II
Demi III

and the Dark Magic Style Holy could be named:
Scathe
Scathe II




If they seriously give some attention to DRK and realize it into an actual useful, unique melee/mage hybrid, I will:

Decorate a room with lovely ambiance.
Set a table and decorate it nicely.
Spend hours lovingly preparing, seasoning, and cooking a crow dinner.
Then finally, sit at that table by myself and love every minute of eating my crow.

Start getting yourself set up now while you can. Then if SE follows through, get that crow ready. Then you can trash everything and show SE what they have done afterwards if they don't go through with it.

[Unctgtg]

Anyone else find it completely disturbing that we have the most powerful weapons in the game, and yet we have some of the worst and weakest WSs.

[Emitremmus]

I was pondering something the other day...

What if DRK were able to use a Sublimation-like effect that drains HP and increases attack? It could be stored up to say...1/4 of your max HP, and when used could bump your attack by a variable of the amount of HP stored? The attack bonus could either be used for one attack round, OR stay in effect for a set amount of time, whichever most of the player base would prefer.

Another idea would be an ability or job trait that utilizes debuffs on the player. Say it has a chance to transfer the debuff on you to the enemy via an "enspell" effect. For example.

-Player is inflicted with blind.-
-Next attack has a chance of transferring blind to the currently targeted enemy.-

Alternatively, the inflicted debuffs could be used to increase the strength of the DRK. Say having 1 debuff increases your attack by X%, but having 2 debuffs increases it even more.

Both of these abilities pay homage to the lore of the Dark Knight, such as using one's own suffering to inflict damage to enemies. I haven't played DRK since 76+ has been obtainable, mainly due to the utility of the job becoming irrelevant to other jobs' strengths.

[Byrth]

In order for elemental magic (and by extension Occult Acumen) to be feasible, DRK would have to instant-cast it. That's not feasible, but if you act now you can make more reasonable changes that will give DRK a more versatile role.

The four basic changes I'd propose:
1) Decrease the casting time of all dark magic (including Endark but excluding Dread Spikes) to be equal to Stun. - You could do this through a job trait like Elemental Celerity or Divine Benison.
2) Eliminate Stat-Drain decay. - Kind of an unnecessary mechanism, don'tcha think?
3) Double base Absorb duration. - It's pitiful at the moment.
4) Increase the cap on absorb-stat spell potency (up to 30?).

At the end of the day, what do you have? DRKs that cast Absorb-STR, Drain II, and Endark more than once a month. Heaven forbid they use the spells you gave them. If you fail to do number 2~3, I don't think absorb-stat spells will really see use.

Other more off-the-wall ideas:
* One of the problems with Absorb spells is that you're forced to choose between enhancing yourself (Absorb-STR) or helping the party (Absorb-VIT) from a feasibility standpoint. You could counter this by introducing "Siphon-VIT" and "Siphon-AGI", if you wanted. Siphon VIT would steal a monster's VIT and turn it into STR. Siphon-AGI would steal a monster's AGI and turn it into DEX. Problem solved.
* Absorb-Attack (You get +Attack, monster gets -Attack) and Absorb-Haste (You get Haste, monster gets Slow) would both be assets to DRK. The latter one might be useful even if you don't make the four changes recommended above, and would give DRK a magic Haste source for better lowmanning.


It would be interesting if you could figure out the number of times DRK-specific spells have been cast since 75 and compare it to other Spells. I would bet that Blizzard IV has been cast more times than all the absorb spells combined.

[Joyroth]

Dark Holy from FFT was awesome!

[Hextitan]

I co-sign this thread.

And I also think Blood Weapon should be a Job Trait. But the problem is, Endark would overwrite it. Unless SE specifically programmed the JT to overwrite Endark.

Also fix Entropy and/or Quietus. As many people said, it's silly for a level 60 WS to still be our best.

[Rohelius]

Oh wow i'm excited again ^^!

[Smokenttp]

well im not a drk but im gonna take a risk here (schs may hate me for this also lol) but what if drk got something in the line of Immanence (Makes it possible for your next elemental magic spell to be used in a skillchain) can be in form of ja or trait (altough probably JA is better in this case) or even a spell. this would give elemental magic some usefullness (skill chain opener) and would mantain focus on melee

[Chamaan]

Not a Drk, but... Why not give them a magic specific Subtle Blow trait that by 99 stacks high enough to lower enemy TP gained from a Drk's spells to 0. Then they could sit back in big events where it's not safe for DDs to go in and cast magic without feeding TP to the mob and killing the tanks. And it'd work with their Occult Acumen traits to let them build TP for when it's safe to run in and damage.

It's situational, but one situational use is more situational uses where their magic is worthwhile than they have now.

[Chriscoffey]

I just wanted to warp in here and let you know that we are thinking about lowering the casting time for dark magic. On top of that, we are also looking into DRK's magic usage.

Great ideas so far! Keep the feedback coming. ^_^
I think she came in here to say this because I promised her a R.Stripeshell or a cookie in the trade forum topic. Go me.The cookie is not a lie.

[Fredjan]

I just wanted to warp in here and let you know that we are thinking about lowering the casting time for dark magic. On top of that, we are also looking into DRK's magic usage.

Great ideas so far! Keep the feedback coming. ^_^

That's good to hear. Our mastery is definitely within dark magic when it comes to spells, and I'd definitely like to see more that'd encourage us to use our MP as well as dish out damage. Like I've said in another thread (which also suggested something that Urteil did) we need reasons to use our MP pool, and honestly... our elemental magic ability doesn't cut it.


Reaper- Grants Blood Weapon and enhances Quick Magic while wielding a Scythe.
*The BW could be the one noted above, with a low activation rate (1~3%) and susceptible to resists. Quick Magic should be a native trait, as noted earlier, and would go a long way in making DRK's magic more useable- this would simply boost the activation rate.

Slayer- Occasionally deals double damage and improves critical hit rate while wielding a Greatsword.
*The ODD is there instead of DA specifically to be less powerful (No extra TP). This should activate around 3~5% and apply to WS damage (that's the trade-off for low activation and no TP gain). It's basically a weaker, spikier version of DA. The boost to critical hit rate should be moderate-weak, maybe a 3~5% boost or something here as well. This trait should be nice on the eyes, not particularly game-changing.

Really like this idea. They'd be similar to "stances", I suppose. It'd fit with the Scythe=Utility and GS=Damage theme SE's clearly showing us. I suppose something else could also work, similar to Afflatus Solace, that'd store Drk's "absorbs" (similar to how much HP a WHM has healed) and power up its offensive dark magic that doesn't absorb anything, similar to the following suggestions:


I'd also like to suggest a Banish-style spell for DRK, but it weakens arcana defense instead of undead defense:
Demi
Demi II
Demi III

and the Dark Magic Style Holy could be named:
Scathe
Scathe II

Stuff like this would definitely get me to use our MP with more frequency. I don't mind using my MP, as long as it's worth it.

[Atomic_Skull]

Anyone else find it completely disturbing that we have the most powerful weapons in the game, and yet we have some of the worst and weakest WSs.

No, no, DRK doesn't get Ukonsavara or Verethragna. Those are WAR and MNK/PUP only weapons.

[Saiken253]

No, no, DRK doesn't get Ukonsavara or Verethragna. Those are WAR and MNK/PUP only weapons.

Haha at that joke, unless you were serious then get off the game ^^

Scythes have the highest damage out of all the weapons(if you really didn't realize what he meant). just compare any lvl of Ukon with any similar lvl of Redemption, or a better example, Apocalypse. The scythe will have much higher damage than the GA. Why can't scythe do more damage than any other weapon in the game(outside of Apoc where it's normal TPing swings can crit for 4k+ on high tier NMs) is rediculous~. And the reasoning: SE despises DRK and it's community and favors the simple melee jobs(WAR SAM MNK) that can "face-roll" and do massive damage.

[Helel]

Being able to SC with nukes is definitely the best idea suggested so far. Do it.

Edit: Ranger with annihilator has the strongest weapon in the game. DRK, WAR, whatever doesn't even come close. Currently 176 base damage with dark adaman bullets.

[Rohelius]

No, no, DRK doesn't get Ukonsavara or Verethragna. Those are WAR and MNK/PUP only weapons.

Maybe this person is one of those abyssea noobs that thinks Ukon and Vere do the same damage outside of abyssea too so dont be angry at her lack of insight ^^

[Cljader1]

I just wanted to warp in here and let you know that we are thinking about lowering the casting time for dark magic. On top of that, we are also looking into DRK's magic usage.

Great ideas so far! Keep the feedback coming. ^_^

Omg thank you for hearing our Idea's I'm glad a SE representative came in a drk thread and gave us a useful response...again thank you^^

[Cljader1]

I love a blood weapon JT, Drain III, dreadspikes II, and a lines of darkness based nukes would be great. It'll be nice if you guys can experiment with death, doom, and maybe confuse as dark magic spells for drk. There's alot of great ideas in the drk forum hopefully you guys can implement some of them. Death is already in the dat. files I urge you to release it (drk only of course) if you do Rukkirii I will sacrifice my apoc too you for the good of the job and I'll rebuild another one.

[Sonshou]

Give us a self only haste spell, which is dark magic base, with a short cast time, doesn't matter if it cost a lot of MP or drain our HP. but make it stack with WHM haste spell.

[xiozen]

I'm on board with these ideas, especially looking at the boost pup gets now w/ the automatons casting a wide range of additional magic; with a vast majority of it benefiting the master... the purpose was to re-define the job considering how it was being left behind and re-establish its position as a solo job...

A dark-magic version of haste with a low cast/recast at or near lvl 99 would not be over powered by any stretch; with a 2-handed weapon this addition to the job would significantly help its dps and output; PUP gets it and more... no reason not to spread the love to jobs that now need it in order to make them much more versatile.

[XxCo0kyxX]

I would like to se
Dark spell I+II maybe even III
Temper? (the rdm double attack spell)
Absorb Attack / Def / Haste (gives same symbol as haste spell, so they dont stack which wouldnt make the spell op + slow on mob)
En-Drain (yes I know we have a drain 2h but would a Endrain spell be to overpowerd? We have drain samba so, I dont think a little en-drain spell wouldnt be to overpowered)
Drain III (or some other form of drain like dot drain? idk)
I think these spells should be possible, now to the "OP dream spells :P": Death, Doom, Curse, Terror

[Urteil]

Quick magic no. This is a terrible idea.

I do not want to base my job on something that "might proc" or might activate, and if it doesn't I just wasted time casting when I should have been meleeing.


No. No. No. No. To "Quick Magic."

I'd rather take a -5% casting time reduction (which is nothing) than this.



Apparently DRK gets tactical Parry II next update, wtf is up with that SE?

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I would like to se
Dark spell I+II maybe even III
Temper? (the rdm double attack spell)
Absorb Attack / Def / Haste (gives same symbol as haste spell, so they dont stack which wouldnt make the spell op + slow on mob)
En-Drain (yes I know we have a drain 2h but would a Endrain spell be to overpowerd? We have drain samba so, I dont think a little en-drain spell wouldnt be to overpowered)
Drain III (or some other form of drain like dot drain? idk)
I think these spells should be possible, now to the "OP dream spells :P": Death, Doom, Curse, Terror

Temper and any spell like that is Enhancing clearly, you'd need to be able to take Absorb-DA, TA or QA before SE would ever give this to DRK.

[Urteil]

I just wanted to warp in here and let you know that we are thinking about lowering the casting time for dark magic. On top of that, we are also looking into DRK's magic usage.

Great ideas so far! Keep the feedback coming. ^_^

Rukkirii I do appreciate you giving us feedback! This is the first time we have gotten anything in ages. So please understand the frustration is not toward the community reps, such as yourself but the glaring incompetence of the development team.




It would behoove everyone in this thread to cross their arms and reply with a "we'll-believe-it-when-we-see-it."

Or when we get something other than: "We are actually aware that Dark Knight's have magic spells, and are finally understanding this fundamental concept! We are looking at magic, and going to do something with magic, maybe. . . Well actually we might do something about the recast time, but we're just looking at Dark Knight's casting magic in 'general."


SE is giving us another tier of Tactical Parry in the new update, don't be fools and get your hopes up until we get something besides:

SE Speech (n):

1. A type of deceptive rhetoric in which a statement that uses passive voice and ambiguity to make a claim, in an attempt to relay that something of value was said, but in all reality wasn't.



On that note Rukkirii, can you please relay to the dev team, the most basic of steps:

Magic Attack Bonus # {Yes, please.}
Tactical Parry # {No thanks.}

[Selzak]

Quick magic no. This is a terrible idea.

I do not want to base my job on something that "might proc" or might activate, and if it doesn't I just wasted time casting when I should have been meleeing.


No. No. No. No. To "Quick Magic."

I'd rather take a -5% casting time reduction (which is nothing) than this.

With all due respect, I think you're being short-sighted here. First of all, a potential Quick Magic effect on Drains, Aspirs, Dread Spikes, and Absorb-TP is already very useful. I feel like a lot of DRK's problems with casting (on the dark magic side) come from recasts. For example, the Drain line of spells seems to have been specifically balanced by having ridiculous recasts. They're good spells, but they're hardly available. To be able to cast Drains back-to-back (occasionally) would help the fact that the spell has grown to have very little impact (especially every 60 seconds).

Also keep in mind that this is suggested separately from any boost to our overall casting ability. Magic Attack is not going to effect anything except for elemental spells, and no one is saying that those can't be made useful as well. I think it's a lot more worthwhile to focus on our dark magic though, which Quick Magic would help out-of-the-box. The trait is begging to be on DRK and PLD.

[Ryce]

Disclaimer: I don't play DRK.

I think it would be cool if DRK got a buff spell that would increase attack, reduce weapon delay, and lower accuracy with each successive hit landed. The effect would be reset upon a miss or a weapon skill. This could allow a DRK with good accuracy to become more and more powerful with each hit, perhaps even beyond weapon skill damage.

It would also create a neat tension for the player who has landed (for example) 10 hits in a row, who is getting a huge boost to attack and attack speed, and has TP for a WS... Do I trigger the WS with this current boost and start over? Do I continue to boost and enjoy this power and speed? If the player is thinking like a true Dark Knight, they are probably greedy for MOAR POWER and continue to hack away until finally... miss. Commence rage. I call the spell/ability Blood Lust.

[Elanabelle]

The only way to "improve" DRK's usage of spells is to make it so that spell-casting either *improves* melee DPS, or *at least* doesn't gimp melee DPS. Otherwise, the argument that melee'ing continuously without stopping to cast = the best damage output will always hold true.

Some ideas:

1. Casting elemental magic spells adds an "afterspell/aftermath" potent temporary Enspell effect, or,

2. Casting enfeebling magic spells adds a "afterspell/aftermath" potent "additional effect: enfeeble" effect. Examples: En-Petrify, En-Plague, En-Paralyze, En-Feint, En-Silence, En-Stun, En-Amnesia, etc, or

3. *Significant* TP gain procs from casting nukes and Absorb-spells, or

4. Haste (magical type) boost when under the effect of an Absorb-spell, or

5. Job Ability, similar to Scholar's Ebullience, with a low cooldown timer, that significantly boosts Magic Damage on the next cast. Introducing new DRK JSE that increases the effect of the new JA would possibly make this even more attractive.

[hideka]

ya know... color me silly here... but it seems almost like SE wants DRK's to tank >_> everything they do does high enmity, tactical parry, scarlet delerium... dreadspikes... lol. watch them finaly give DRK shield skill ( which is funny since drks can wear TONS of shields but have 0 skill >_>)

also to all the darks who are all like "AH EM GGEEEEEEEEEE MY WS ISUNT UBAR!"
1: torcleaver & new great sword both rock.
2: you can use the new axe/great axe weaponskill. omg a drk using a axe/great axe.. i know >_>

i think entropy is fine the way it is tbh. let it be drks utility WS, but make it so its a static MP restoration 100tp=25% 200TP=50% 300TP=100% MP return
instead i think they should beef up Infernal Scythe, spiral hell, or Cross reaper to be used on boss mobs.

remember kids a new WS dosent have to be the strongest, it only has to be better then every other WS that shares its properties, or else it will fail.

Dagger Model for Success Example Energy steal > energy drain/ Gust slash > Cyclone > Aoelian Edge/ Shark bite > Rudra's storm.

Dagger Model For Failure: Dancing Edge < Evisceration

Scythe Success ModelExample: Dark Harvest > Shadow Of Death > Infernal Scythe/ Slice> Nightmare Scythe> Vorpal Scythe > Spiral Hell > Quietus.

Scythe Failure Model: Guilloutine < Cross Reaper < Insurgency

if you notice on the models for failure, the predecessor is better then the successors for similar damage types, and on the models for success, the successor is better then the predecessor.

im not here to troll or nothing, just i think you guys are being silly about entropy.

+1 to the darkness spells btw. i personaly feel that DRK needs a full line of darkbased nukes that cast at 1 second cast times ( like Darkness I-V) and all provide a bonus to Occult Accumen and weaken the monster VS Absorbspells.

[hideka]

oh and before anyone goes " but Evisceration is better then dancing edge!!!" i sugggest you take a trip back in time to the days before abyssea. DE Crushes EV outside of abyssea.

[Thanotos]

If we get nothing else, at least remove all those elemental spells from our spell list, tired of looking at them and scrolling through them, sure I could edit the list myself, but i would have to resort the entire list everytime i switched to blm.

[Selzak]

It's worth noting that DRK is such a confused job, we can't even get an appropriate entrance from a rep! Jump into DRG threads, Called into BST threads, etc...DRK doesn't have Warp!

(Not hating on the response, I just think the state of DRK is pretty hilariously misconceived right now)

[Armangetto]

I think its too coincidencidental, that SE gave us Entropy then about a week later they responded to us saying they are gona adjust our magic. Odds are it was planed and this update for drks is probaly gona be magic focused. Also take into acount a few months past, they said they were going to gives a job trait that was the fast cast for dark magic (Dark Celerity?) and fix our absorb spells.

Im betting we are geting Dark celerity, maybe get absorbs fixed/adjusted, adjustments to casting/recast timers on our current spells and maybe some new spells.

With that out of the way hers some ideas/thougts I have for our spells.

Dark Sky - I remember this spell from FFX-2 and it was awsome! A massive dark based single/aoe spell with 200-350 mp cost, short to moderate casting time, with about 3 to 5min timer.

Absorb Haste- LIke many have suggesnted, gain magic haste while the mob gains the affect of slow, would be useless if you were geting proper buffs in endgame content. This spell alone would help out our dps even further agaisnt the other dds if your not geting properly buffed/low man situations.

Impact - Why not? Make it the same as the cloak version but lower the mp usage to 200~300ish, maybe weaken it a little so the cloak version is still stronger?

Dark magic nukes - Same as everyone has suggested demi/darkra/unholy ect.

Abyssal Blast - The tp move from the undead toads (Jnuns?) did dark damage and gave you blindness.

Dark Fire ball - The tp move the ninja demons would use, it looked like a black hadoken coming out of their hands. (It was always funny when you where wiping and you tried to run away while they sat their firing them off at you or others.)

Warp - Eh... why not? Its a dark magic.... >_>

Confused - Taken from FFX-2 this would fit drks well, who wouldnt want to see the mob hurt itself?

Charon - A job ablitly, again taken from FFX-2, This version you would Sacrifice hp and mp for greater dmg boost (Soul eater 2.0?) Works with weapon skills. Cant combine with Soul eater, 1 min duration 10 to 15 min recast. For balacining only works with 2nd weapons or could limit it further with works only with gs and scythe. This could help us get some equal footing with the other dds going all out.

As for elemental spells,,, I dont think giving us mab trait of any amount or buff is going make them worth casting, its as many people put it, dps vs casting time.

I hope everyones ideas help the devs improve the job we love so much Dark knight!

[Savlyn]

Signed & Agreed to the OP

[Theytak]

Haha at that joke, unless you were serious then get off the game ^^

Scythes have the highest damage out of all the weapons(if you really didn't realize what he meant). just compare any lvl of Ukon with any similar lvl of Redemption, or a better example, Apocalypse. The scythe will have much higher damage than the GA. Why can't scythe do more damage than any other weapon in the game(outside of Apoc where it's normal TPing swings can crit for 4k+ on high tier NMs) is rediculous~. And the reasoning: SE despises DRK and it's community and favors the simple melee jobs(WAR SAM MNK) that can "face-roll" and do massive damage.

Highest damage rating ≠ strongest weapons. The part I bolded is only slightly accurate. The scythe will have a higher damage on any individual hit, yes, but the great axe will always be faster, and in this game, it's not high damage ratings, but low delays, that determines true weapon strength. Mind you, both are a factor, but delay has a much larger weight.

Compare:

Redemption 95: Dmg: 150 Delay: 502 DPS: 17.93

Ukonvasara 95: Dmg: 144 Delay: 482 DPS: 17.93

Caladbolg 95: Dmg: 132 Delay: 430 DPS: 18.42

Verethragna 95: Dmg: 87 Delay: 331 DPS: 15.77* (using 412 h2h skill from merits, mnk95 for MA7)
*Note that verethragna always attack at least twice per attack round, so the dps will be higher than this realistically

DPS values only show the ratio of Dmg to Delay with delay converted to seconds, and don't account for aftermath,

While Redemption's 150 dmg will allow it to have the highest average damage per hit, it is also the slowest weapon of the bunch.

Before the RNG (Random Number Generator) gets a hold of the actual numbers to cause variation, if you (generously) assume capped fSTR and pDIF, you would see this:

Rounding note: All seconds values are truncated to the thousandths place (rounded down) due to the commonality of the floor function. All DPS values are truncated to the hundredths place.

Redemption: ~382 damage per hit, every 8.366... seconds (before haste), every 5.02 seconds (40% haste, gearcap+haste spell), or every 1.673... seconds (capped 80% haste)
Raw DPS: 45.66 DPS
40% Haste: 73.46 DPS
80% Haste: 228.33 DPS

Ukonvasara: ~369 damage per hit every 8.033... seconds (before haste), every 4.82 seconds (40% haste), or every 1.606... seconds (capped 80% haste)
Raw DPS: 45.93 DPS
40% Haste: 76.55 DPS
80% Haste: 229.76 DPS

Caladbolg: ~338 damage per hit every 7.166... seconds (before haste), every 4.3 seconds (40% haste), or every 1.433... seconds (capped 80% haste)
Raw DPS: 47.16 DPS
40% Haste: 78.60 DPS
80% Haste: 235.86 DPS

Verethragna: ~198 damage per hit, twice, or 396 per round every 5.5166... seconds (before haste), every 3.31 seconds (40% haste), or every 1.77 seconds (capped 80% haste, accounting for Martial Arts) (note that when you account for h2h's natural 2 hits, Verethragna deal more damage per attack round than redemption, at half a second slower than redemption with 40% haste (the delay difference is due to martial arts, if there were no martial arts, h2h would trump scythe as the slowest weapon in the game for all but a select few weapons)
Raw DPS: 35.89 DPS (1 hit), 71.79 DPS (both hits)
40% Haste: 59.81 DPS (1 hit), 119.63 DPS (both hits)
80% Haste: 111.86 DPS (1 hit), 223.72 DPS (both hits)

Due to martial arts counting towards the haste cap, Verethragna has both the highest DPS (no haste~high haste) and the lowest DPS (capped haste) of the group. Once Vere hit the haste cap (they will a good deal earlier than the other weapons), everything else starts to catch up, and then pass, vere, but looking purely at melee damage potential, I won't try to argue that it being significantly easier for a mnk to cap haste than a war gives vere an edge, especially since drk has just as much ease reaching it due to desperate blows.

tl;dr: Scythe is not, and has never been, the strongest weapon.

[Selzak]

Redemption 95: Dmg: 150
Ukonvasara 95: Dmg: 144
Caladbolg 95: Dmg: 132
Verethragna 95: Dmg: 87

Everything else is just you being defensive and missing the point that he was trying to make.

[Saiken253]

Everything else is just you being defensive and missing the point that he was trying to make.

why do people either not read everything, or completely segment each sentence to not be connected in any form in discussions? xD

But yes, he clearly missed my point and to clarify: Scythe Damage ratings > all and why does that =/= greatest WS damage? clear hating on SEs part, or they really don't know how anything works in this game(outside war mnk sam whm blm), or as someone has said on another thread, "I believe they truly do like bad ideas".

[Economizer]

But yes, he clearly missed my point and to clarify:

To clarify, even arguing that Scythe is the lowest damage weapon when compared to other 2handers is wrong too, he was using the Empyrean stats, which are favorable to his argument. Bust out the Relics, which are higher damage, and his argument falls flat on its face.

I'm not even going to argue that you were right (or wrong) here, I don't really care for the sake of this discussion whether Dark Knight is a crappy DD or not, or whether Scythe is a bad weapon choice or not - even if it is the numbers he used were wrong. He might be able to argue whatever else about Scythes and might even be right, but when it comes to down to it, the highest damage rating two handed weapon in the game is a scythe, and the highest flat DPS two handed weapon in the game is a Scythe.

[Rohelius]

tl;dr: Scythe is not, and has never been, the strongest weapon.

Never is a strong word, 93.3% Haste cap says Hi

Oh and this...
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110923022322/ffxi/images/d/d1/Apocalypse95.jpg

Selective memory~

[Theytak]

Everything else is just you being defensive and missing the point that he was trying to make.

Care to elaborate on how my explanation that scythe isn't the strongest weapon misses the point when in reply to some one saying scythe is the strongest weapon?

I'm not saying anything negative about drk, or even that I disagree about scythe needing stronger ws (I agree with that), I'm just explaining how BNS isn't ever correct ever.

[Theytak]

why do people either not read everything, or completely segment each sentence to not be connected in any form in discussions? xD

But yes, he clearly missed my point and to clarify: Scythe Damage ratings > all and why does that =/= greatest WS damage? clear hating on SEs part, or they really don't know how anything works in this game(outside war mnk sam whm blm), or as someone has said on another thread, "I believe they truly do like bad ideas".

I didn't miss the point, I was correct in my assessment. That you mispoke isn't my fault ; ;


To clarify, even arguing that Scythe is the lowest damage weapon when compared to other 2handers is wrong too, he was using the Empyrean stats, which are favorable to his argument. Bust out the Relics, which are higher damage, and his argument falls flat on its face.

I'm not even going to argue that you were right (or wrong) here, I don't really care for the sake of this discussion whether Dark Knight is a crappy DD or not, or whether Scythe is a bad weapon choice or not - even if it is the numbers he used were wrong. He might be able to argue whatever else about Scythes and might even be right, but when it comes to down to it, the highest damage rating two handed weapon in the game is a scythe, and the highest flat DPS two handed weapon in the game is a Scythe.

What is this I don't even


Haha at that joke, unless you were serious then get off the game ^^

Scythes have the highest damage out of all the weapons(if you really didn't realize what he meant). just compare any lvl of Ukon with any similar lvl of Redemption, or a better example, Apocalypse. he scythe will have much higher damage than the GA. Why can't scythe do more damage than any other weapon in the game(outside of Apoc where it's normal TPing swings can crit for 4k+ on high tier NMs) is rediculous~. And the reasoning: SE despises DRK and it's community and favors the simple melee jobs(WAR SAM MNK) that can "face-roll" and do massive damage.

He said to compare the empy weapons, so I compared the empy weapons. I didn't use Relics because I was just doing a quick number crunch.

I'm not trying to insult or berate anyone, I'm not calling anyone stupid, inept, ignorant, or otherwise. I just posted some math that disproves the assertion that "Scythes have the strongest damage out of all weapons" where in damage is read as "damage output" not "damage rating" because no one ever says "damage" and means "damage rating" except when the conversation is about weapon stats. Who pissed in all of your cheerios?


Never is a strong word, 93.3% Haste cap says Hi

Oh and this...
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110923022322/ffxi/images/d/d1/Apocalypse95.jpg

Selective memory~

Touche, sir. I'd totally forgotten about that.



also: I'm a girl, dammit.

[Saiken253]

sorry, i was simply being lazy about the statement, so instead of damage rating i said damage. But I was still implying about the weapon's damage rating in my post. Otherwise I would have said, "Do/deal the greatest damage".

But back on topic, I still feel that DRK needs revamping in the WS dept. Flash damage is much more highly valued in EG areas, and even in casual scenes. I do realize that DRK has probably the best per swing damage, and swings the fastest of all the heavy DD, but in many cases we can't utilize this; especially in VW or waiting for certain conditions to happen and can't do as much damage as other DDs can in an instant. Something that helps DRK do more flash damage is needed.

And by flash, think of what a SAM or WAR or DRG can do in 10~15sec.

[Urteil]

With all due respect, I think you're being short-sighted here. First of all, a potential Quick Magic effect on Drains, Aspirs, Dread Spikes, and Absorb-TP is already very useful. I feel like a lot of DRK's problems with casting (on the dark magic side) come from recasts. For example, the Drain line of spells seems to have been specifically balanced by having ridiculous recasts. They're good spells, but they're hardly available. To be able to cast Drains back-to-back (occasionally) would help the fact that the spell has grown to have very little impact (especially every 60 seconds).

Also keep in mind that this is suggested separately from any boost to our overall casting ability. Magic Attack is not going to effect anything except for elemental spells, and no one is saying that those can't be made useful as well. I think it's a lot more worthwhile to focus on our dark magic though, which Quick Magic would help out-of-the-box. The trait is begging to be on DRK and PLD.

Reduce the recast/casting time by a static amount. Not a random proc which will be to be percieved as much stronger than what it really is a /random effect that hardly benefits us. Then I will have to rely entirely on luck instead of skill, with little to no tactical input whatsoever.



This ability cannot:

Be planned on.
Does not fit into any type of planned and methodical strategy.
Will be up-played and will do more damage to the job then the negligible benefit it brings.


If you want to help the spell casting of DRK's in respect to Drain/Aspir/Endark/DreadSpikes please:

Lower casting time by a set amount.
Lower recast by a set amount.


This idea of a "random" chance for it to be good will only give job more adjustments that look good on paper but in application are lackluster.


What's begging to be on DRK and PLD, which are front-line jobs, is faster magical casting in all situations, not a random occurrence for something to that is terrible to be luckily changed into something good.

Example:
SE lower Drain/Aspir spells casting time to 1 second, and shave 20 seconds off of the recast timers.

[Gokku]

lol @ girls on the internets

[Selzak]

...because no one ever says "damage" and means "damage rating" except when the conversation is about weapon stats.
That's exactly what this conversation was about lol. I don't think anyone is mad (they shouldn't be). You just didn't understand the context of the thread/his post and made a huge, irrelevant post that came across as you defending MNK when the discussion was simply about the fact that big, high-powered weapons should do more WS damage than smaller, less powerful weapons. Strong can be ambiguous I guess. Think of it like a skinny guy hitting someone 100 times and doing more damage versus a professional boxer hitting someone once and doing less damage (overall). Still, we're calling the professional boxer stronger in this context. It's not that hard to understand I don't think...

Either way, this is getting very off-topic and it's really not worth discussing here.



Reduce the recast/casting time by a static amount.
Both are worth considering and honestly I'd be happy either way. The reason I'm more on board with Quick Magic is because it resets recasts completely, and a lot of our spells have not aged well so casting an instant one followed immediately by another one causes them to have a real impact (i.e. with Drain). I don't know if you're thinking more in terms of PvP or something here, in which case a static thing would be a lot better and the above problem doesn't even apply. I'd also argue that the notion of "tactical input" or "skill" in either of these cases is pretty silly. It's not like we have to solve a puzzle to make the spell available or something either way. The only difference is that one is random, which I'd argue requires more skill (adapting) to deal with. This game isn't hard.

Like I said though, I'm on board with either one and I'd assume that a simple alteration of the casting times and recast times is what's actually going to happen.

[Solrath]

I think that DRK's elemental magic (Tier I-III) could be eliminated and replaced with a set of elemental spells similar to some found in other square-enix games, notably the "Dark -ga" spells like Dark Firaga, Dark Blizzaga, etc. In fact, you can look no further than a certain mission boss in FFXI that uses Dark Flare, Dark Freeze, Dark Tornado, etc. These spells are either conal or radial, are cast instantly (however, they are "TP moves," not spells,) and inflict debilitating status effects.

I think DRK should get a set of "Dark -ga" spells that cost a relatively low amount of MP (100-200), have very short casting times (1-2 seconds) and inflict 1-2 status effects related to its element (i.e. Amnesia with Dark Firaga.) It goes without saying that these spells should also be Area of Effect. To boost their damage, these spells could either a.) be affected by Souleater: Take 10% of the user's Max HP and add that total (or double) to the damage of the spell, or b.) do high damage and always require 10% of the user's Max HP as part of the casting cost.

I would only hope that these spells have unique animations.

[Selzak]

Steps for success when updating DRK:


1. Think realistically
Before you do anything, think about it in the actual context of the game. DRK has a lot of things that look good on paper but become superfluous and useless in application.

2. Let us use our toys
Look back at the Absorb-TP nerf. If it was too powerful, consider changing the recast or resist rate instead of just making it not worth the casting time or MP. A lot of the things that are supposed to set DRK apart amount to nothing more than novelties. For the longest time, Souleater and Last Resort (our two defining JA's) suffered this fate. THANK YOU for fixing that, now leave the JA's alone because we're fine and don't need any more superfluous things cluttering the list. Things like Drain (recast + formula), Drain II (recast), Absorb-TP (nerf into uselessness), Dread Spikes (hard duration- capping damage drained is fine, but the 1 minute duration no matter what is just annoying), Scarlet Delirium (no one is going to ever use this), Absorb-STAT spells (extremely out-dated and unnoticeable), and Elemental spells (absolutely useless in any realistic sense) have not been so lucky. The job is cluttered full of things that it has, but can't really do.

3. Define a role
DRK's identity for a long, long time was the Stun Knight. This was a legitimate role (albeit a somewhat weak one) that we would love to have back. Consider giving us a JA along the lines of Zeid's Abyssal Strike that stuns the enemy and does damage- it can be set to a 60 second recast with moderate damage (something like a melee attack, or less), no TP return, and an added Stun effect. In a tangled bunch of melee jobs fighting for supremecy, DRK doesn't need more melee damage if it's capable of something more. I sincerely hope that this is where DRK goes.

4. Realize the description
Absorb-Attri was a step in the right direction. The job needs more unique debilitating capabilities. The Absorb-STAT spells are a lost, dead art to DRK- consider giving them a considerable buff (or make the amount stolen go up and rate of decay go down scaling with level or something- finally capping at a set duration with no decay at level 99). DRK really needs something to set it apart here: consider giving DRK a currently unavailable, new way to hinder enemies. Something like Terror or Plague comes to mind; obviously balance would need to be taken into account, and it would require a bit of creativity to make it fit correctly...the point, though, is that DRK does need some kind of powerful debuff to bring to a PT that no other job can do better.

5. Be creative
En-Dark was a perfect add. Using magic to add to our damage in a unique way (it's unique in the context of melee jobs) is fantastic. No complaints whatsoever there, great job. Do more stuff like this. One thing that I posted a long time ago, and that I think most everyone is on board with, is the idea of giving DRK a 'Blood Weapon' trait that activates at a low rate and is susceptible to resists.

6. Open up the gates
Number 4 is, I think, by far the most important aspect to consider. However, the concept of the job seems to be that DRK can do melee damage and magic damage. To make this practical, DRK's nuking capabilities need a complete overhaul. DRK would do well to have one or two high-cost, quick-casting Darkness nukes. I don't think we need more than one to two of these, like Demi and Darkness or Darkness I and Darkness II...just two quick, practical spells for dark damage. Be creative with this stuff...the balance factor could be high resists instead of simply never letting us cast it. Require us to swap in a casting set if we want it to land fully on a regular basis. A big problem holding DRK's magic damage back, as everyone has been stating...forever, is the fact that whatever damage you do with a spell must include a subtraction of the damage you'd have done with your normal swings if you had not casted it. This, coupled with long recasts on spells like Drain and Drain II (which both deserve it for the damage/cost ratio...Drain II perhaps being a bit over-adjusted) make any damage DRK can do with its magic either impractical or inefficient. The Quick Magic trait, which would simply occasionally counteract the side-effects of this, would be perfect for DRK. Spells like Drain, Drain II, and Dread Spikes could become more than just a novelty with this trait.

7. Diversify
I love the idea of Greatsword being DRK's pure melee weapon and Scythe being the utility/hybrid tool of choice (with WS like Catastrophe, Entropy, and magic-based stuff that everyone hates). This is a very cool concept, and you might take it further by defining it with an early Job Trait that differentiates the two weapons. Solidify Greatsword as our pure melee, tough enemy weapon and Scythe as our utility, solo/small party oriented weapon.


Please just try to enjoy the job's concept for a moment and be creative with it...then realize it.
Shamelessly quoting myself for another page and adding an idea I had for that unique enfeebling necessity that I feel is the most important thing for DRK right now:

A new line of debilitating spells to define the job's enfeebling role~

Dark Magic:
DRK 91) Rupture- Lowers enemy's resistance to blunt weapons.
DRK 96) Disclosure- Lowers enemy's resistance to piercing weapons.
DRK 99) Exposure- Lowers enemy's resistance to slashing weapons.


*These spells overwrite eachother.

Make these meritable to improve the effect. For tougher enemies, allow the spell to land regularly (with sufficient dark magic skill) and balance it by making them wear off within a shorter amount of time depending on how tough the monster is. In content like VW, balance the spell by letting it last just long enough for us to quickly set up a volley of SAM WS or something like that before it wears off.


There's you some spells to cast. There's you a reason to invite a DRK to your PT. There's your unique, perfectly martial/magical identifying line of spells to define the job. If the future identity for WAR is the ability to change its weapon type, what more perfect way to define DRK (WAR/BLM) than with this dark arts twist on that concept. This is exactly the kind of thing the job needs to make its MP bar feel like part of the job again.

[Savlyn]

Seconded again ^^

[Rydstrom]

best idea ever.
Shamelessly quoting myself for another page and adding an idea I had for that unique enfeebling necessity that I feel is the most important thing for DRK right now:

A new line of debilitating spells to define the job's enfeebling role~

Dark Magic:
DRK 91) Rupture- Lowers enemy's resistance to blunt weapons.
DRK 96) Disclosure- Lowers enemy's resistance to piercing weapons.
DRK 99) Exposure- Lowers enemy's resistance to slashing weapons.


*These spells overwrite eachother.

Make these meritable to improve the effect. For tougher enemies, allow the spell to land regularly (with sufficient dark magic skill) and balance it by making them wear off within a shorter amount of time depending on how tough the monster is. In content like VW, balance the spell by letting it last just long enough for us to quickly set up a volley of SAM WS or something like that before it wears off.


There's you some spells to cast. There's you a reason to invite a DRK to your PT. There's your unique, perfectly martial/magical identifying line of spells to define the job. If the future identity for WAR is the ability to change its weapon type, what more perfect way to define DRK (WAR/BLM) than with this dark arts twist on that concept. This is exactly the kind of thing the job needs to make its MP bar feel like part of the job again.

[Urteil]

Shamelessly quoting myself for another page and adding an idea I had for that unique enfeebling necessity that I feel is the most important thing for DRK right now:

A new line of debilitating spells to define the job's enfeebling role~

Dark Magic:
DRK 91) Rupture- Lowers enemy's resistance to blunt weapons.
DRK 96) Disclosure- Lowers enemy's resistance to piercing weapons.
DRK 99) Exposure- Lowers enemy's resistance to slashing weapons.


*These spells overwrite eachother.

Make these meritable to improve the effect. For tougher enemies, allow the spell to land regularly (with sufficient dark magic skill) and balance it by making them wear off within a shorter amount of time depending on how tough the monster is. In content like VW, balance the spell by letting it last just long enough for us to quickly set up a volley of SAM WS or something like that before it wears off.


There's you some spells to cast. There's you a reason to invite a DRK to your PT. There's your unique, perfectly martial/magical identifying line of spells to define the job. If the future identity for WAR is the ability to change its weapon type, what more perfect way to define DRK (WAR/BLM) than with this dark arts twist on that concept. This is exactly the kind of thing the job needs to make its MP bar feel like part of the job again.

If they did this well I wouldn't want another thing ever again.

[Urteil]

Both are worth considering and honestly I'd be happy either way. The reason I'm more on board with Quick Magic is because it resets recasts completely, and a lot of our spells have not aged well so casting an instant one followed immediately by another one causes them to have a real impact (i.e. with Drain)

The real reason why Drain has not aged so well is because Dark Magic after 300 skill no longer adds potency.

If the spell was on a 40 second timer before haste and gained all the potency it was meant to from skill + gear you are looking at 500~ unresisted drain I every 20~ seconds.

Right now with Appetence Crown and Bale Flanchard +2/Nethervoid I can easily do 1100+ unresisted drain II's to targets without severe magical defenses. If the potency was increased to match the sill + all of my +% gear it would be much higher.

So instead of a trait that randomly effects us, a straight reduction in timers in conjunction with the almighty appetetence crown/hirudinea earring/excelsis ring etc. Is more than enough and would in the long term add 100x more calculated survivability rather than missing the true problem (damage scaling) and trying to fix it with an atrocious amount of RNG.

[Concerned4FFxi]

A job ability that doubles ws damage and costs mp to use mp, sort of how smn has mana cede. I'd like to be able to use scythe, it's our best weapon, without having a relic. Let's face it, your two strikes in, the empyrean sux and the new ws is junk.

[hiko]

- new ja: spiriteater (overwrite/ is overwriten by souleater)
- impiousI/II ("dark holy")
- dark emblem
- dark afinity (JT, several tier)
- life drain (DoT drain, give a buff status, effect wear off if mob erase himself or dispell the drk)
- chaos ( aoe (5), selftarget. deal severe dmg to self and pt member, same total dmg dealt are also dealt to enemy in area, can be used to charge SD)

[Quetzacoatl]

Shamelessly quoting myself for another page and adding an idea I had for that unique enfeebling necessity that I feel is the most important thing for DRK right now:

A new line of debilitating spells to define the job's enfeebling role~

Dark Magic:
DRK 91) Rupture- Lowers enemy's resistance to blunt weapons.
DRK 96) Disclosure- Lowers enemy's resistance to piercing weapons.
DRK 99) Exposure- Lowers enemy's resistance to slashing weapons.


*These spells overwrite eachother.

Make these meritable to improve the effect. For tougher enemies, allow the spell to land regularly (with sufficient dark magic skill) and balance it by making them wear off within a shorter amount of time depending on how tough the monster is. In content like VW, balance the spell by letting it last just long enough for us to quickly set up a volley of SAM WS or something like that before it wears off.


There's you some spells to cast. There's you a reason to invite a DRK to your PT. There's your unique, perfectly martial/magical identifying line of spells to define the job. If the future identity for WAR is the ability to change its weapon type, what more perfect way to define DRK (WAR/BLM) than with this dark arts twist on that concept. This is exactly the kind of thing the job needs to make its MP bar feel like part of the job again.

Holy Shit. This a pretty damn amazing idea. I would be flabbergasted if SE doesn't at least try implementing something like this. But of course, when am I not flabbergasted when SE fails to deliver?

[Rohelius]

Think of it like a skinny guy hitting someone 100 times and doing more damage versus a professional boxer hitting someone once and doing less damage (overall). Still, we're calling the professional boxer stronger in this context. It's not that hard to understand I don't think.

Oh my god man how about we get each of the Devs in a line to take a punch from this guy so they can understand that concept.
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2006/0927/boxing_g_tyson_195.jpg

And then line them up again after they stop puking to take one from this guy~ http://www.brickcityboxing.com/media/paul%20williams_01.jpg

I mean, after that they should have a decent grasp of the concept you explained and hopefully knock(pun intended) some sense into them lol

[Chriscoffey]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/85/The.Way.Of.The.Dragon.1972.Bruce.Lee.flex.front.jpg/220px-The.Way.Of.The.Dragon.1972.Bruce.Lee.flex.front.jpg

I would suggest if we are going into this discussion we use an appropriate person. This is what dark knight was before the haste nerf w/Apoc.

http://www.seattle-tourist.com/images/bruce-and-brandon-lee-grave.jpg

This is how dark knight feels for me vs other melee now. Congrats SE on Samurai buffs. I am being sarcastic , however, I don't really believe SE knows what to do with dark but those are some good ideas previously for the magic aspect.

[Saiken253]

I lol'd. I say improve DRK's WS and implement all the great magic ideas for drk that have been posted throughout the forums. 1 thing that I still think would help everyone(and makes sense in my head) is make every WS have a natural chance to crit. Why can't you crit on something that you're putting forth a lot of "skill and focus" and you can when you're just swinging? Just make the crit WSs crit more frequently(and i've thought this way since before abyssea btw.) and just so much more can be done to this game. SE needs to stop with this beta and start the real thing lol~

[Theytak]

sorry, i was simply being lazy about the statement, so instead of damage rating i said damage. But I was still implying about the weapon's damage rating in my post. Otherwise I would have said, "Do/deal the greatest damage".

But back on topic, I still feel that DRK needs revamping in the WS dept. Flash damage is much more highly valued in EG areas, and even in casual scenes. I do realize that DRK has probably the best per swing damage, and swings the fastest of all the heavy DD, but in many cases we can't utilize this; especially in VW or waiting for certain conditions to happen and can't do as much damage as other DDs can in an instant. Something that helps DRK do more flash damage is needed.

And by flash, think of what a SAM or WAR or DRG can do in 10~15sec.

The word you're looking for is "spike"; ie: "Sam and Drk have always specialized in Spike Damage while Mnk and Nin specialize in Damage over Time."


Shamelessly quoting myself for another page and adding an idea I had for that unique enfeebling necessity that I feel is the most important thing for DRK right now:

A new line of debilitating spells to define the job's enfeebling role~

Dark Magic:
DRK 91) Rupture- Lowers enemy's resistance to blunt weapons.
DRK 96) Disclosure- Lowers enemy's resistance to piercing weapons.
DRK 99) Exposure- Lowers enemy's resistance to slashing weapons.


*These spells overwrite eachother.

Make these meritable to improve the effect. For tougher enemies, allow the spell to land regularly (with sufficient dark magic skill) and balance it by making them wear off within a shorter amount of time depending on how tough the monster is. In content like VW, balance the spell by letting it last just long enough for us to quickly set up a volley of SAM WS or something like that before it wears off.


There's you some spells to cast. There's you a reason to invite a DRK to your PT. There's your unique, perfectly martial/magical identifying line of spells to define the job. If the future identity for WAR is the ability to change its weapon type, what more perfect way to define DRK (WAR/BLM) than with this dark arts twist on that concept. This is exactly the kind of thing the job needs to make its MP bar feel like part of the job again.

This idea is absolutely delicious and as a non-drk, I emphatically support it.

[Saiken253]

Well, spike damage is the single hit big Numbers(like what I can do with /thf on drk with torcleaver). Flash is being able to do a lot of damage with multiple abilities/spells within a very short timeframe. they're similar, but not the same. I also forgot to include BLU.

However, I do enjoy the lowering the resistances of certain damage types that mobs typically have. Especially with only 2 monster families being subject to slashing damage... and both are undead x.x

this and dark nukes that are no longer than 1sec plz if they don't fix the new WSs(in a positive way for DPS~!)

[Theytak]

Well, spike damage is the single hit big Numbers(like what I can do with /thf on drk with torcleaver). Flash is being able to do a lot of damage with multiple abilities/spells within a very short timeframe. they're similar, but not the same. I also forgot to include BLU.

However, I do enjoy the lowering the resistances of certain damage types that mobs typically have. Especially with only 2 monster families being subject to slashing damage... and both are undead x.x

this and dark nukes that are no longer than 1sec plz if they don't fix the new WSs(in a positive way for DPS~!)

that's a bit of a misconception. Spike damage is any form of sudden increase in damage for a short burst. The nomenclature isn't 100% accurate these days, but it was a lot more relevant when it came into common use back in the day. Compare (75 cap, pre abyssea):

Mnk: deals a steady, consistent, predictable amount of damage over long periods of time, even during WS (Asuran fists back then was basically just 4 attack rounds condensed into a single ws). This type of damage was preferable for exp, and events like dynamis and einherjar, where you have a lot of enemies and (less so with einherjar) a good amount of time with which you need to continuously deal with them.

Drk: deals moderate damage over time if allowed, but specializes in dealing large bursts of damage, or "spikes". This type of damage was preferable for shorter fights, or tougher monsters, examples include Sky gods (baring kirin before zergs) and HNMs, where keeping the monster alive longer was a bad idea.

it's basically something like this:

DoT:
||-------------------------------------------------------
Spike:
||___/\___/\___/\___/\___/\___/\___/\___/\___/\___/\___

Spike could be either a single SAWS or more like SELRBWKclub zerg, either way it's a large amount of damage output that cannot be maintained over a long period of time. You're confusing "spike damage" with a typical side effect of "Big Number Syndrome"; thinking damage in a single hit is what's important. Pretty much every DD 2hour allows for a significant output of Spike Damage relative to their job, except manafont, since that doesn't increase damage output, just allows damage w/o mp cost, and EES, because it's EES. And Overdrive but that's a different issue.

[Saiken253]

Well I suppose it's just mine and my LSs categorization of all the playstyles of DDing heh. regardless, DRK has no longer become a Spike damage DD(in your terms) and has become more of a DOT DD. DRKs realy can't do a lot of damage in a short timeframe, not like they used to in comparison to other jobs. Simply because if we want to do a big number we need to /thf(which is still good in it's own right) where as a war can still /sam and get meditate as well as sekkanoki; not to mention it's own damage boosting abilities.

Instead, for a DRK to to respectable damage, it has to rely on it's TP swings for it's damage(similar to a mnk) because our WSs have become more and more outclassed by the other 2handed DD that it's pitiful at this point.

Yes I have Caladbolg and yes I can do nice numbers with that weapon, but WAR SAM DRG and such do it much better than DRK. I just want this gap to be closed.

And many of the DDs 2hours need revising/overhaul(like what drg got). Because only WAR SAM MNK DRG(though it's 2hr is becoming less and less significant) BLU and maybe SCH get significant boosts with their 2hours. DRK's Bloodweapon has become a novelty these days with the laughable 30seconds of use and the Souleater resistance that anything worth Kclub zerging(or anything similar to Kclub zerging) unusable; except for bahamut, but who kills him anymore? Additively, don't get me started on Astral Flow haha...

So in short, DRK needs quite a bit of "face-lifting" haha.

[Killvearn]

I just wanted to warp in here and let you know that we are thinking about lowering the casting time for dark magic. On top of that, we are also looking into DRK's magic usage.

Great ideas so far! Keep the feedback coming. ^_^

About magic usage i have an idea for absorb spells.
How about an ability that store the buffs you have absorbed, and give you back after using another ability.
Something like this:

-Start of the fight
-Store ability
-Absorb Str - Vit - Attri - whatever
-Not getting the buffs
-Melee, proc, whatever
-Use second ability
-Getting str+ vit+ etc

This way if you choose the right moment for casting (like when you can't melee for whatever reason: tank building hate, proc, raising TH etc) your dot will not suffer because of casting time, and you can get your boost at the right time, like when Last Resort, Soul Eater, aftermath or other buffs are up. Also should help if you are /sam using Hasso.
Buffs stored will be lose if die or zoning, you can't stack up the same buff (str + more str), duration of effect unchanged (so enhance with equip can still make sense) but all timers start at the same time when using the second ability.

It's just optimize the timing of what can be already done, so i think it will not be too overpowered, if that the case enmity+ bonus after the second ability can be added as a penalty, or something on that line. Or have a max number of buffs that can be stored (based on skill if you will).
Not sure if drain/aspir should be stored as well, but i think the possibility is worth mentioning.
As always thanks for you attention, and sorry for the bad english.

[Boldheart]

Totally on board with this. It seems ridiculous that we don't have any practical nuking potential whatsoever on DRK.

Drain/Drain II would be good if the formulas and recast times weren't so outdated.

Drain actually has a fast recast though II doesnt. The spells itself are great w/ af3 +2 pants and that ability we get can take 700+ hp w/ drain II so the formula is great!

About the T3 spells.... well they are T3 spells so the damage output will not be as of BLM, SCH etc... now more tp towards ws on usage of magic would be great. Like in VW when we are trying to build tp w/ out meleeing would be the shiznat

[Thanotos]

Wow. Amazing idea!!! Does anyone remember that SE "vision of a drk" statement they made..... something about "crippling damage"...... what ever happened to that vision.............

[Selzak]

Drain actually has a fast recast though II doesnt. The spells itself are great w/ af3 +2 pants and that ability we get can take 700+ hp w/ drain II so the formula is great!

About the T3 spells.... well they are T3 spells so the damage output will not be as of BLM, SCH etc... now more tp towards ws on usage of magic would be great. Like in VW when we are trying to build tp w/ out meleeing would be the shiznat
Every five minutes when you use Nether Void Drain II does 700 damage, therefore Drain spells are awesome!

This is pretty much what's wrong with DRK.


Also, 60 seconds is not a fast recast... It's faster than the ridiculous 2 minutes or whatever Drain II has, but it's not fast at all.

[saevel]

Really need to lower the casting time of all dark's spells to 0.5s like stun. Also please look into extending the duration of the +status to 3min like other buffs. This would have DRK's use their dark magic to buff themselves by draining their enemy, which is kinda DRK's thing.

I always thought the long a$$ casting time on dark spells was stupid.

[saevel]

A job ability that doubles ws damage and costs mp to use mp, sort of how smn has mana cede. I'd like to be able to use scythe, it's our best weapon, without having a relic. Let's face it, your two strikes in, the empyrean sux and the new ws is junk.

Actually a JA similar to soul eater or last resort (fixed version). Each hit consumes MP and creates a specific effect, either +damage or maybe +crit rate.

[Economizer]

Really need to lower the casting time of all dark's spells to 0.5s like stun.

Absorb spells at the least. Even a 1s cast time wouldn't be too bad.


Actually a JA similar to soul eater or last resort (fixed version). Each hit consumes MP and creates a specific effect, either +damage or maybe +crit rate.

Plus damage and have all the damage that they do be considered either the same as Formless Strikes, or dark based magical damage. Could very easily be a new merit ability too, although if it was, it should only be in the same category as spells and buffs to spells that Dark Knight has. Well, that or eliminate the stupid cap on merit abilities and allow people to merit every ability.

[Saiken253]

Going back to the Darkness nukes(which er might be getting, but not holding my breath) I think they should also be able to stun. Not as reliable as the real Stun, except with maybe capped dark magic and good macc. Or they could have interesting debuffs like inhibit TP; a dark DoT after effect that stacks with all other forms of DoTs(more potent than Bio III); Plague, potency determined by Dark Magic Skill; Slow, again potency with dark magic. There's just so much they can do with it. However, they still need to be .5sec cast, deal a heavy amount of damage(no less than 500 outside abyssea), and have no longer than a 1min recast even with Hasso. Their "drawback"? they require a lot of MP, which might give us a reason to have at least 1 merit into Entropy haha.

[Theytak]

Absorb spells at the least. Even a 1s cast time wouldn't be too bad.



Plus damage and have all the damage that they do be considered either the same as Formless Strikes, or dark based magical damage. Could very easily be a new merit ability too, although if it was, it should only be in the same category as spells and buffs to spells that Dark Knight has. Well, that or eliminate the stupid cap on merit abilities and allow people to merit every ability.

an mp baby version of souleater mixed with endark? sounds neat.

[Akutenshi]

I really think what would separate DRK's from all other two handers would be give them the option to cast quick, damaging spells that take up a decent amount of MP. Let a class actually be up close to the mob that can do damage close up and cast as well, with doing comparable damage to other two handers. I think this could definitely change the play style of DRK in a good way. More casting orientated DRKs can use a scythe and entropy and could possibly open up viable casting subs, but if that's not your thing you could stick with /sam, /war, or /thf and cast less of the possible new spells but be more melee orientated like it is now. Granted, have the option to still be melee orientated with a scythe, but maybe buff quietus some if that's the case.

If SE can add fancy new graphics for the new weaponskills, I don't see how they can't add new graphics for dark basses spells like the opposite of holy or banish. I mean they could do a spell that's the opposite of banish and could give it an effect like the merited version the whm has. Don't make it merited, but make it so that the spell could have say a unique effect to mobs that it's casted on. Instead of say defense down on undead mobs it could be defense down on all things but undead etc. Kind of how drain works. They system is already there, they just need to utilize it. I know people can say that may not be fair to whm's, but whm's are there to mostly heal. They could have the option to do damage to undead all the time and they sacrifice other merits and healing abilities to do it while drk's main focus is only damage.

I think of drk as the opposite of pld. Pld's need to make use of their MP bar to be more effective and efficient, while drk's are not so reliant on it. It's just there for them to use if needed. I see that as a bad design flaw in class mechanics. Why have a class with MP if they are not going through it consistently? Entropy would fill that gap IF we had what so many other suggestions players have been saying previously that were awesome ideas. I know many people may not cater to casting as drk, but honestly, there are three other two hander classes that can do what drk can do, but do it so much more better with subbing the main two hander subs.

Sekkanoki and Hasso streamlined all the two hander jobs to be very similar in play style. I think the other jobs have enough niches to be different. War has massive damage. Drg has wyvern, breaths, jumps, and solo ability. Sam is just a skill chaining machine. Drk can stun and cast some situational drk magic that is either resisted a good majority of the time, or just doesn't have much reason to cast. Then they could do self skill chain with Sekkanoki that, every other two hander can do so what makes them different? I wish SE would give me a reason to actually be enticed and motivated to play drk besides being a stun machine or soloing in campaign with say subbing /sch to actually make it fun with all the tools you have at your disposal. Other than that I don't see much reason to play drk these days.

[Fyreus]

Shamelessly quoting myself for another page and adding an idea I had for that unique enfeebling necessity that I feel is the most important thing for DRK right now:

A new line of debilitating spells to define the job's enfeebling role~

Dark Magic:
DRK 91) Rupture- Lowers enemy's resistance to blunt weapons.
DRK 96) Disclosure- Lowers enemy's resistance to piercing weapons.
DRK 99) Exposure- Lowers enemy's resistance to slashing weapons.


*These spells overwrite eachother.

Make these meritable to improve the effect. For tougher enemies, allow the spell to land regularly (with sufficient dark magic skill) and balance it by making them wear off within a shorter amount of time depending on how tough the monster is. In content like VW, balance the spell by letting it last just long enough for us to quickly set up a volley of SAM WS or something like that before it wears off.


There's you some spells to cast. There's you a reason to invite a DRK to your PT. There's your unique, perfectly martial/magical identifying line of spells to define the job. If the future identity for WAR is the ability to change its weapon type, what more perfect way to define DRK (WAR/BLM) than with this dark arts twist on that concept. This is exactly the kind of thing the job needs to make its MP bar feel like part of the job again.

This. So much this.