Newest interview (abyssea was a mistake?)

[Runespider]

I laughed hard reading this newest interview.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=28416&storypage=1


The Legacy of Abyssea

While most players would agree that the Abyssea series of add-ons breathed new life into the game, the consequences of such radical new content still weigh heavy on the developers who created it. Despite the positive response from the fans, Battle Director Mizuki Ito is quick to temper that excitement. "Abyssea wasn't all positive feedback," Ito admits. "There were negative aspects to it, too." In particular, the developers were concerned about game balance. "It became something a little different than what longtime FFXI players were used to. On the one hand, it was great that people enjoyed it, but there is also the loss of game balance to consider. Now we are going back into existing content to re-establish some balance."

So, what exactly disrupted the balance of the game in Abyssea? Ito elaborates, "In Abyssea, the system allows you to boost your parameters way up and just wreak havoc." There probably are not many forum-goers that would have trouble with that, but the developers worry about where that leaves the rest of the FFXI experience. "Users get a taste of that kind of power, and then they have to leave Abyssea and go back to fighting with their regular stats. Having such a huge gap between content is a problem."

One might expect the positive fan reaction would give the development team much to take from Abyssea as they continue to build more content. However, for Ito, the best lessons to learn from Abyssea are what not to do. "The fans consider Abyssea a success, but the developers are very aware of its failings" Ito states. "At this point, rather than reuse aspects from Abyssea, we would like to create something completely new."

Players liked Abyssea, they made it to be enjoyed and now they say no more of that, we should never of done it. BALANCE > happy subscribers.

The only mistakes with Aby were adding brews, and indeed making them really cheap and easy to get. Also very fast XP without adding masses of new endgame content was probably a mistake.


Deeper into the Void

While the recent add-ons may have injected some new energy into the player base, the newest endgame content for Wings of the Goddess, Voidwatch, has received a more mixed reaction. A main complaint amongst forum-goers is that Voidwatch brings back the old grinding days of FFXI with low drop rates and a treasure pool system that keeps items out of the hands of those who need them the most. On this issue, the developers have sympathy for the players, but again, opinions differ between player and developer.

Ito addresses the problem as being another issue of balance. "Originally, Voidwatch was designed as content for an alliance of 18 players. If you go in with 18, there will actually be a higher rate of reward than any other content in FFXI." Essentially, what they have done with Voidwatch is instead of a system where players hash out which members lot which equipment, all players have a higher chance to get something -- it just might not be what they want each time. "Overall, it equals out to a system where you can freelot, but item drops are much lower," says Ito.

Unfortunately, such a system required the developers to disallow trading. As Ito explains, "For example, say each player gets 5 items. You have 5 items times 18 players and they can all trade freely. Now one player could collect 90 items. That's no good." The removal of the trading option was specifically in order to counter item hoarding. Every individual participating in the content has an equal chance to get items.

FFXI Producer Hiromichi Tanaka also weighed in on this issue. During the launch of FFXIV, Tanaka was just as dedicated and involved in FFXI as ever, so he understands what went into Abyssea, and how the new content compares. He, along with the other developers, keenly feels the issues of balance, but Tanaka is also the first among them to hint at some positive changes in store for easing the difficulty of Voidwatch.

"The playstyle of any new content, of any new system, always has some difficult aspects to it." Tanaka explains. "However, I believe that we can work with the players to gradually improve this as we go forward." Tanaka is aware of the importance of the lifespan of content, but at the same time, is willing to meet players halfway to create a less stressful experience. "Right now, we are at the beginning stages of this content, but as we go forward, we can make adjustments to respond to more casual playstyles," Tanaka promises. "If we set the difficulty low right from the start, everyone focuses on that content and quickly grows bored with it. Our style is to give the new content some bite at first, and then start to loosen up, little by little.


The future looks so bright and rosey, aren't we all just so glad we got Tanaka back here?

When they have a success they deem it failure, this game is going to bleed players again soon. None of us are ready to go back to old FFXI now (taking years to get 1 piece of gear etc), and that is where we are headed.

Fun.

[Glacont]

Abyssea is fine the way it is; mistake or not.

[brayen]

You would think they would take a lesson from success instead of being such negative nancies lol. honestly the biggest downturn from aby was prolly just the whole crit hit WS jobs were stronger ...at least from a balance perspective. They seem to take all the bad from aby tho, proc is now part of EVERYTHING, soon ull need to proc ur moogle to open ur safe! in either case, there is a silver lining here, Boycott VW till they actually add in drops instead of just ores and logs

[Sonshou]

I think that they consider it a failure becoz it create a content development block. That the abyssea content is so success that it is difficult to pull out something that is better than that. And certainly they didn't plan to make Abyssea the final content for FFXI, or they would have warp them beautifully and put them on the shelves.

Now, if you are a developer, seeing how successful abyssea is, can you make something better than Abyssea and get the players to move onto the new content?

[SpankWustler]

The main thing I take away from all of that is they're not running around the offices naked. Color me impressed!

[Economizer]

When they have a success they deem it failure, this game is going to bleed players again soon. None of us are ready to go back to old FFXI now (taking years to get 1 piece of gear etc), and that is where we are headed.

But they could do a few things that could take years. For example, on the new weapon skills, instead of hard capping us at the ridiculous 15 allocation points they have us at, they could have us spend merits for allocation points at an increasing rate. Basically, you'd be able to get all 14 weapon skills capped, but it would cost enough experience that it would take a very, very long time, even at the accelerated rates that places like Abyssea can give.

The cap is especially ridiculous considering how much work SE put into each weapon skill animation - why are we limiting the ones we will see to just the ones that will be popular?

It is even more ridiculous considering how much they themselves like the job system, they even mention it in the interview!


Players have access to 20 different jobs, so the next step is seeing all the ways these 20 jobs work together and how that can drive new content.

-

On the PS2 comments they said:


"If we were to redo every model to support the newest version of DirectX, just with the massive amount of data that has accumulated over 10 years, it would be almost impossible. So, we will continue looking at individual aspects that we can improve graphically."

Honestly, I don't really expect, nor want them to overhaul the graphics of FFXI too much, but I do think they could go for a more stylized look going forward - the characters usually fit the world very well, I actually think it is certain maps that don't always fit. A "high definition pack" wouldn't hurt... perhaps asking the fans to make one for certain things every so often with contests to support it would be interesting.

-

On Voidwatch... they already let the cat out of the bag with Abyssea. That said, I think they could make some very minor adjustments that would fix the problem very quickly without breaking up the no-lot system, or even changing the drop rates too significantly for their tastes.

I wish they'd have taken away that the proc system was the major failing of Abyssea rather then the ease of the content, because events can be made harder a lot easier if players don't have to worry about killing the monster as it goes into an epileptic seizure from the light show.

Going forward the gear needs to not be balanced with previous gear or Abyssea, but what we should expect out of new end game gear - the AF3 can be for everybody, but the new stuff might not. This is an issue that is pretty frustrating currently, one of the new gear I've seen in reports from the test server is just the NQ Blessed Gloves and the WHM AF1+1 gloves tapped together. I suppose if the goal was inventory +1 and Haste -1%, then good show, but really, this sort of thing should have better stats then merging the effects of TP gear and WS gear that you could get at 75.

I may be wrong, but if the gear was more powerful (in certain cases at least) perhaps people would be slightly more forgiving of the low drop rates in Voidwatch.

[Mirage]

The real mistake is that we got a power creep that should really have been spread out over 6 years delivered to us over less than a year. Had it been spread out over all the years since RotZ it would have been much easier to balance jobs than it is now, when you increase the cap before you've even had time to look at the balance at the current cap.

It really seems like they're just taking shots in the dark when it comes to balance, hoping that at least some of them will hit where they should.

[Arcon]

[..] Fun.

You don't get it. Abyssea was fun, no one argues that. But it's far from a success. It's bad, and it killed FFXI, possibly for good this time.

FFXI is a MMORPG, and one of any MMORPG's main goals should be longevity. Part of longevity is finding the balance between enjoyable content and slow progression. Too slow, and players lose interest, too fast, and you're not able to dish out enough content in time to keep people entertained. Abyssea tipped that balance way into the latter category. It's as if the development team forgot what most gamers, especially online gamers, are like. They plow through content. Just a few weeks after Heroes of Abyssea was released, all the mobs in there have already been defeated, more than once. Three months after it was released, many HNMLS have quit for good, because they had all Empyreans finished and every piece of gear they wanted. And for casual players it only took longer (and not much, because they're getting the hang of it as well.

In short, Abyssea removed a large chunk of the hardcore players from FFXI. However, those players were the ones who were able to deal with real content better, which is why now everyone complains about Voidwatch. It's very hard to go back to "normal" FFXI, after Abyssea, which was FFXI on ecstasy. And I'm not sure if people will ever be able to recover.

Old FFXI had it right. You may have considered it too slow, or too hard, or whatever, but thankfully what you think doesn't count, only numbers count. And in the decade that FFXI existed, never have more people quit than after Abyssea was released. Maybe some people will return some time from now, but a large part of the damage is done. We'll see what will become of this game, but whatever you wanna think, Abyssea was a bad move on SE's part (and they know it, as you can see).

About the interview... I'm quite surprised SE admitted this. Honestly, I wasn't even sure if they even knew what was going on. But kudos to them for saying it like it is, let's hope they get back in gear to give us real content.

Also, shut up:


During the launch of FFXIV, Tanaka was just as dedicated and involved in FFXI as ever


The future looks so bright and rosey, aren't we all just so glad we got Tanaka back here?

[Runespider]

In short, Abyssea removed a large chunk of the hardcore players from FFXI. However, those players were the ones who were able to deal with real content better, which is why now everyone complains about Voidwatch. It's very hard to go back to "normal" FFXI, after Abyssea, which was FFXI on ecstasy. And I'm not sure if people will ever be able to recover.

If you took the hardcore element (which has vastly decreased since most of them kinda went and got jobs/kids after leaving college etc) and weighed them next to the casuals the hardcore would fly off into space, they make up such a small amount of the playerbase they make they are almost unimportant. Also very few hardcore left till the last year when Aby content dried up and there was little else left to do, they were all in Aby grinding..if more content would of been forthcoming they would still be here.


During the launch of FFXIV, Tanaka was just as dedicated and involved in FFXI as ever

It's written down, so it must be true. Do you believe everything spoon fed down your throat cause someone somewhere wrote it down?


In short, Abyssea removed a large chunk of the hardcore players from FFXI. However, those players were the ones who were able to deal with real content better, which is why now everyone complains about Voidwatch.

VW isn't amazingly hard, JP and English speaking PUGs taking them all down daily. People complain about a drop system custom made to make people do the content for years, not how hard the fights are.

[Kincard]

I don't think it was so much the system itself that was the problem as was the target audience. When you consider that XI survived alongside a bunch of other MMOs that were considered more "casual" (Or whatever you want to call it), a lot of the players that ended up staying with XI were the ones that actually preferred the slow, horizontal growth of XI's endgame (among other things of course), rather than having everything be reset with each major patch, which is what is happening now (And is what a ton of other MMOs do with their endgame, though XI is doing it at a mind-boggling speed, with level caps being raised by 5 within, like, 3 months of each other from 75 to 90, then 95/99 coming a bit later but still really fast by MMO standards).

Now they're trying to play cleanup by going back to what it was back at 75. Unfortunately, the damage is done- a lot of those players have quit because the stuff they spent a long time getting is now either obsolete, or outclassed in some way. Furthermore, SE has attempted to half-stick with the horizontal growth by making all kinds of sidegrades to the point where all of us are running around at 75/80 inventory just to make sure we min/max every single JA, WS, and spell we fire off- I definitely don't remember item management being this annoying at 75, even with that.

I would say Mirage is right in that if they had spaced these significant changes over a longer period of time, the players probably would've been more receptive to it.

[Psxpert2011]

Abysea plays it's own part within the community who has in it's own right completed most (if not all) content of FFxi. It's to unwind and do large - small party runs.

They just mention that it *unbalanced the game due to the fact that players only see fit to max out their jobs for that particular content. The problem what (I, in particular)could fix this is relocate the carnivorous maws that transports adventurers to abysea and strategically place them in hard to reach areas (or just area in the past).

Placing them in the present doesn't make areas more usable, it's a distraction to new players whether or not they know the whole roadmap of the MMO (not including rank missions and quest) rather than playing for fun and for the moment (that's how I started).

*Unbalance in a way where most content is being used and others have gone redundant. An example: Hardly nobody does Sea or Sky because everyone find it more fun to be in Abysea and "reck havoc". The only balance (which IMO has worked and should be the only measure to counter-balance the world of Vana diel) that has been implemented were the use of stones and a zone timer. This in turn keeps a balance and control whether or not SE has made adjustments to this and things are easier.

[Camiie]

The problem with Abyssea, as I've stated before, is that they didn't have a fourth add-on that carried it all the way to the new permanent cap. To put it another way, The worst part about Abyssea is that there isn't more of it.

Abyssea basically modernized FFXI. It finally came in line with it's successors. Heck, in some ways it crossed the line and became more player friendly than even the friendliest MMOs out there. As far as battle systems go, while not perfect, it is by far SE's best work.

Oh it definitely shifted some paradigms, and it wasn't without some growing pains (for lack of a better term). I was hurt at first by the way some people I consider friends reacted to the ability to low-man everything. They figured if they could three-man everything then by god why should anyone else ever come along. After a while though, things worked out and I've found my place with friends who wanted to team up with me. Even if it did suck at first, I wouldn't trade the end result for anything.

For those who think Abyssea ruined the MMO aspect of FFXI I offer you this. Now, I do Abyssea with friends and sometimes strangers, and with the generally relaxed nature of the content I feel like I can really be myself and I think I really have built closer bonds with people as a result. I'm no longer "at war" with other linkshells, and have been able to get to know people who I would otherwise have had to /blist to avoid HNM shenanigans. I no longer have to subjugate myself to linkshell leadership in order to get decent gear. There are no distribution arguments over gear that's taken 3 years to appear in the loot pool.

[Arcon]

It's written down, so it must be true. Do you believe everything spoon fed down your throat cause someone somewhere wrote it down?

What? "Someone somewhere" wrote down that Tanaka was gone, and everyone believes it. Now SE themselves say it's not true, but you believe the rumors instead? I hate having to argue with people like you.

VW is harder than Abyssea, which is the point here. You can't duo Voidwatch, at least not higher tiers, and many people struggle with it, simply because they don't get 18 members for each fight. The "do it within your LS" approach won't work if you don't have enough people interested in it. Sure, you can shout for more members for certain fights, and people do it, but not everyone even gets to that point. I've seen it in many LS, and guess why they don't have the people? Dynamis and Einherjar were also done with 18+ people, but the problem is that those people left, for the most part also because of Abyssea.

I'm not saying the new stuff is bad, on the contrary. I love the new stuff, and the old stuff, pre-Abyssea. Abyssea itself is fun and easy, you can casually go in there and get an Empyrean, and awesome gear. But it was detrimental to the game. I hope FFXI will recover from it, maybe even some people will return, but right now it's not looking good. And the development team recognized the negative effect it had, hence what they said.

[Kincard]

The problem with Voidwatch is it swung way too much back into the other extreme, where something like 9/10 times you'll get a crappy log or ore in your chest and you feel like you wasted a lot of time. Would be nice if there were more substantial consolation prizes, like the ones you would get from Einherjar- if they had done that there probably would be way less complaining.

[Malamasala]

Main issue with VW is always that you could still be getting items you already got. Not really fun to get your 5th super rare armor and not be able to share it.

And I'd rather everything but Abyssea was removed. Pet buffs didn't exist until Abyssea and that is just super sloppy balance by SE. One could easily think they didn't notice pet jobs existed until a year ago. And the new VW content sure doesn't seem to remember pet jobs. (Dynamis seem to though. Good job whoever is responsible for Dynamis)

[Vold]

Wow looks like some persons were right about Abyssea not being a new direction for FFXI and was just transitional content. Who were they again? I forgot their names already.

Also, lol @ everyone who thought Tanaka wasn't part of FFXI during Abyssea and were so quick to point the finger at him for VW after he "returned to FFXI". But no, it's not enough. Not for Runespider. Now it's going to be a conspiracy. Tanaka is just taking credit for Abyssea. That's it. If I hadn't opened my mouth here that conspiracy theory would have eventually made it's way to light by someone being serious.

My job here is done. Moving on from the Tanaka/FFXI drama.

[Kincard]

Yeah, this whole

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YlIt3cb8VuI/TboIcl1SBrI/AAAAAAAAArs/FTSgld0bDAM/s1600/khaaan.jpg
TANAKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

stuff is pretty silly, I thought by now most people know that this game has been a collaborative effort for a while now. It feels like one person proposes an idea, then the whole team approves/develops it.

For example, we know that Mizuki Ito is the guy who directed the Abyssea addons (Who is currently the project director), and Yoji Fujito designed the chocobo raising/magian trial systems. The former also designed the dreaded ZNM system and the dreaded PW fight alongside Daisuke Sase, so it's not like the guy who made Abyssea is infallible or something. Really, it just seems like the entire team is settling on trying to move away from Abyssea rather than one guy swooping in and going "hurr make the game crappier".

[Afania]

I laughed hard reading this newest interview.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=28416&storypage=1



Players liked Abyssea, they made it to be enjoyed and now they say no more of that, we should never of done it. BALANCE > happy subscribers.

The only mistakes with Aby were adding brews, and indeed making them really cheap and easy to get. Also very fast XP without adding masses of new endgame content was probably a mistake.



The future looks so bright and rosey, aren't we all just so glad we got Tanaka back here?

When they have a success they deem it failure, this game is going to bleed players again soon. None of us are ready to go back to old FFXI now (taking years to get 1 piece of gear etc), and that is where we are headed.

Fun.

What they mean is Abyssea destoryed many aspect of old FFXI such as team work/strategies. In old FFXI you needed to watch your MP pool, stun all spells, be careful with hate, stay out of AoE, and so on. Abyssea is nothing but engage and WHM cure V spam. -ga coming? Eat it then cure V. Watch MP pool? No body cares. Be careful with hate? You got hate you get cure V again. Mobs do AoE? Keep whacking shit and eat that AoE, who cares, we have unlimited Cure V. And the difference beteween job was gone, because it's all about who can cure the most and who can do the most dmg. The only difference between job is really just proc.

I don't know what's so fun/happy about content like this. Sure you get gear fast, and you're happy with fast gears, but I think the process of getting gear should be more important than result. The process of getting gear should be a challenging process that you think your ass out to win the battle. You can get it in 1 month instead of 1 year that's np, but you shouldn't just get it by engage and have a mule spam cure V.

VW is also a fail, mostly because of the amount of ppl you NEED to get it going. Why do you need 18/18 ppl if you can kill it with less? With everyone getting gold chest drops there shouldn't be a problem of letting random ppl join, thus still keeping the intention of everyone can join the fight. Other wise there isn't much problem with VW, sure item drop rate is low, but you can also spam them over and over again without farming trigger.

[Selzak]

SE is so incredibly out-of-touch. Not just with FFXI, but in general.


If this game had any kind of balance (job balance, for instance, is laughable) then what he said might make sense. The game has never been properly balanced...at least Abyssea makes it enjoyable. I don't know how much longer SE can continue on its namesake with such poor management.

[Godofgods]

The developers do have a point. And most everyone ingame has mentioned it to some degree or heard someone else mention it. I mean, how many times have you been somewhere in origional content and head something along the lines of 'man, wheres them atmas when you need em!'

Tho overall i think it is a test of the players ability, not the developers. We need to adjsut depending on the situation. (something xi players are not known for unfortinoitly)

[Kimble]

Tanaka is the P R O D U C E R. He mostly over seas the game.

[Phen]

Balance? HAHAH- wait hes serious? I can think of a few jobs that would like to have a word with you.

[saevel]

What they mean is Abyssea destoryed many aspect of old FFXI such as team work/strategies. In old FFXI you needed to watch your MP pool, stun all spells, be careful with hate, stay out of AoE, and so on. Abyssea is nothing but engage and WHM cure V spam. -ga coming? Eat it then cure V. Watch MP pool? No body cares. Be careful with hate? You got hate you get cure V again. Mobs do AoE? Keep whacking shit and eat that AoE, who cares, we have unlimited Cure V. And the difference beteween job was gone, because it's all about who can cure the most and who can do the most dmg. The only difference between job is really just proc.

I don't know what's so fun/happy about content like this. Sure you get gear fast, and you're happy with fast gears, but I think the process of getting gear should be more important than result. The process of getting gear should be a challenging process that you think your ass out to win the battle. You can get it in 1 month instead of 1 year that's np, but you shouldn't just get it by engage and have a mule spam cure V.

VW is also a fail, mostly because of the amount of ppl you NEED to get it going. Why do you need 18/18 ppl if you can kill it with less? With everyone getting gold chest drops there shouldn't be a problem of letting random ppl join, thus still keeping the intention of everyone can join the fight. Other wise there isn't much problem with VW, sure item drop rate is low, but you can also spam them over and over again without farming trigger.

Abyssea didn't destroy that, those were gone a long time ago. Shells will ~ALWAYS~ utilize the most efficient method possible to obtain loot for their members. In the IT world there is an acronym known as KISS. Means Keep It Simple Stupid, basically to always try to make things as simple and straightforward as possible, the more complex something is, the more moving parts, then the more places for a problem to develop. By making something as simple as you reasonably can, you end up with higher overall efficiency. This is why SC/MB died, it was a great concept but required too many working parts with strict timings. One person making a mistake and all that effort was wasted. So by just bypassing the SC/MB and everyone spam as fast as possible, you end up with more total damage by not having mistakes. For this same reason, any complex fight will be broke down to it's simplest form which is a melee zerg or a SMN zerg. Sure you can have multiple staggered stuns and all that nonsense, but someone's gonna make a mistake and all that work would go down the tube. Or you can just have people zerg something to death while having one person on standby to stun a specific move or spell, it'll die fast enough that you shouldn't need a second stunner.

This is why asking to "bring back SC / MB" is useless, anything that a SC/MB strategy would actually work on, a TP zerg would work better.

[Eric]

Everything seemed to be going in one direction after Abyssea was released. Exp was doubled outside of Abyssea. Grounds of valor was introduced. Dynamis was made more casual-friendly.

But I think I see it now. Right now, casuals(like me) are still busy with Abyssea. SE doesn't really have to worry about us for the time being. Instead, they're trying to cater to the players who have gotten everything they want out of Abyssea. These people need a bigger time sink, because they obviously have way more time than the rest of us. So of course, SE made Voidwatch. It actually makes more sense than I first thought.

The only thing that worries me is what's going to come after Voidwatch. Is the rest of the game going to look like this? From the interview, that's what it seems like, but even then, that doesn't seem so bad.

[saevel]

Everything seemed to be going in one direction after Abyssea was released. Exp was doubled outside of Abyssea. Grounds of valor was introduced. Dynamis was made more casual-friendly.

But I think I see it now. Right now, casuals(like me) are still busy with Abyssea. SE doesn't really have to worry about us for the time being. Instead, they're trying to cater to the players who have gotten everything they want out of Abyssea. These people need a bigger time sink, because they obviously have way more time than the rest of us. So of course, SE made Voidwatch. It actually makes more sense than I first thought.

The only thing that worries me is what's going to come after Voidwatch. Is the rest of the game going to look like this? From the interview, that's what it seems like, but even then, that doesn't seem so bad.

Voidwatch sucks for casual players, it even sucks for hardcore players. The big issue is time vs reward ratio's, this is something SE really doesn't understand how to do. Trying to control it with low drop rates is the worst method possible, many other MMO's learned this lesson a long long time ago. Points systems tend to work the best in the long run, or semi-point systems / collectables like how emp armor seals / coins are done. What it should of been is that every VW fight gives you +points, and you can opt to trade enough of those in for the R/EX bodies and items. They would be expensive enough that you'd have to collect points for months to get, but you WOULD get it and you control the rate you get it at.

[Darkvalkyr]

I think what stabbed XI was the 30 minimum entry to enter Abyssea, and the other was how easy high level gear was to get.

To compensate they added GoV which also throws normal EXP PT's out of the way -- EXP PT's which were already rare enough. Then they seemed to add new gear that throws the previous set of gear you worked hard for out of the water. Next update seems to have potential to give you 4-5 different pieces per JA/TP/WS.

The team probably just threw away the idea of balance, and yes, it shows in the number of subscribers and the number of people that actually do stuff beyond VW/Aby.

[Nynja]

"Users get a taste of that kind of power, and then they have to leave Abyssea and go back to fighting with their regular stats. Having such a huge gap between content is a problem."

Yeah, and then smartypants devs make post-abyssea content based on stuff from abyssea:
WoE turtles do 1.8k Tetsudo Tremor, WoE Amphithetres do 1.5k dmg attacks, VW mobs do attacks that can easily 1shot the best geared players...

[Eric]

Voidwatch sucks for casual players, it even sucks for hardcore players. The big issue is time vs reward ratio's, this is something SE really doesn't understand how to do. Trying to control it with low drop rates is the worst method possible, many other MMO's learned this lesson a long long time ago. Points systems tend to work the best in the long run, or semi-point systems / collectables like how emp armor seals / coins are done. What it should of been is that every VW fight gives you +points, and you can opt to trade enough of those in for the R/EX bodies and items. They would be expensive enough that you'd have to collect points for months to get, but you WOULD get it and you control the rate you get it at.


Sorry, I didn't mean that the actual execution of Voidwatch made sense. I meant that the concept of SE changing the type of content they're developing and moving into content that would take more time to complete makes sense.

I agree that Voidwatch's drop system is retarded to any sort of player, and I especially agree with you on the idea that points systems > low drop rates. Too bad SE sucks at understanding this.

[Kincard]

Hmm, now that I think about it some more, there's also the fact that the story ended with basically no signs of it ever coming back again. There's a lot of players that stayed for the lore, and the long, drawn-out storyline of WOTG finally ended about the time Abyssea was closing off as well, and the game started losing way more subscribers.

People are constantly asking for a new expansion to which the replay is a "maybe", which might as well be a "no" for the current circumstances given how long it has been since WOTG. Since then 6 mini-addons were added and all of them had (at least IMO) mediocre/pointless storylines. Even WOTG felt like it had been setting up itself up to be a lot larger in scale than what it ended up being, and the drop in manpower adversely affected the original plan (Not to say I didn't like WOTG's story or anything, but goddamn was it drawn out or what).

The same thing happened with ACP- Masato Kato more or less directly stated in interviews that he had a lot of limitations working on the story which led to the final product (Reminds me of when he said Chrono Cross was "the best Chrono we could produce at this time").

[svengalis]

Yeah, and then smartypants devs make post-abyssea content based on stuff from abyssea:
WoE turtles do 1.8k Tetsudo Tremor, WoE Amphithetres do 1.5k dmg attacks, VW mobs do attacks that can easily 1shot the best geared players...

It's all about balance....

[VoiceMemo]

I disagree with SE's reasoning greatly from this part:

"Unfortunately, such a system required the developers to disallow trading. As Ito explains, "For example, say each player gets 5 items. You have 5 items times 18 players and they can all trade freely. Now one player could collect 90 items. That's no good." The removal of the trading option was specifically in order to counter item hoarding. Every individual participating in the content has an equal chance to get items."

Allowing trading would NOT result in item hording. Trading is an ACTIVE event. It's not like 1 person can force 17 others to trade them their items. Each individual player must make the decision to accept or deny the trade.

The ONLY possible thing that could result is SELLING of drops from trade, but imo this is the lesser of 2 evils. Allowing trades would help a solid linkshell out to help it's members get items that each wants. This assumes such linkshell has solid leadership and a fair item distribution program. There are linkshells like that, I try to lead mine with fairness as the basis for all drops, and with a transparent data system that no one, not even leaders are above.

[Amador]

Voidwatch was a mistake.

At least Abyssea allowed for actual full on LS participation.

Now it's just: "Oh hey, my shout. Bye guys got to go do Voidwatch with random strangers, that may or may not wipe"

Now it's just: "Damn, just 0/182 Kaggen, someone who only has BRD got it."

I like how they want to view it as Oh 18 * 5 = 90 items that could go to one person.

1: 90 what exactly? 90 Logs? I'm sorry, but even RMT wouldn't touch Voidwatch for Gil.

2: The drop rates are ridiculously low, or did they just literally say: You have a higher chance of getting more items if you have 18 people? Was he referencing being able to hit more lights, or does that literally mean more drops for everyone?

3: Abyssea was a great add on, allowing players to enter at 30 was a blind god awful mistake, but the creators of Abyssea, are the same as those of 14, and in both games they have simplified leveling to that degree.

There is absolutely no rhyme or reason as to why we can't trade these items to people who actually need them. Needing to use up over 100 Voidstones for a single drop is terrible. It's worse than Salvage.

[Seriha]

I just get way more negatives out of the interview than the positive. Abyssea was not a mistake. It is what it is and trying to dictate otherwise is pretty heavy-handed. And while anyone with a pulse would understand how the atma system wouldn't outright be reincarnated in future events, there wasn't much reason to eliminate other perks like reasonable drop rates and fights a party or so could handle. I can't think of many who yearn for the old days of HNM drama, point systems, and the hassles of managing 18+ people for an event or two. Current job balance is also pretty laughable, with some being stagnant before the cap increases even began and remaining such with little more than some expected tier ups.

Had we a time machine to go back and shift when the level cap increases began, sure, I'd agree it would've been better to maybe hit 85 during the era, 95 during WotG, and the final push for the ending of Abyssea. We can't do that, though. The horizontal progression some loved simply can't last forever. People wanted new abilities, better gear that wasn't 5+ years old, new zones with new challenges, and then some. The cap increases had to happen. And while I'm for keeping older content relevant to some degree, I'm not entirely onboard with what we've seen so far. Grinds are grinds, and the rewards don't seem to match the effort alongside the restrictions of access.

[Insaniac]

WTS LV95 THF DRG PLD WHM RDM NIN COR BST WAR.

[Insaniac]

Seriously though I knew Tanaka thought Abyssea was a mistake and was trying to punish us all for having the audacity to have fun in the world of torture that he created. I just never thought he would actually come out and say it. At what point do we accept that the plane we are on is being piloted by Gary Busey and start beating each other to death over the last 2 parachutes?

[Economizer]

Pet buffs didn't exist until Abyssea and that is just super sloppy balance by SE.

Drain Samba, for a while (until they stopped that), but on gear (atma is pretty much gear) there were pet buffs - like the AMK hat, or the hat in Crawler's Nest (S) - before there was Abyssea.

[Kylei]

I loved Abyssea, it's the only place where I can go at level 30 and wake up 95. O.O

[Raksha]

All I have to say is:

MASSIVE /SIGH

[newmonkey]

Good im happy they have finally come out and admited it, this is the place were the screwed up relic weapons for over a year and they still arn't fixed.

So even for the above reason alone abyssea sucked

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not sure how you screw up a Weaponskill that already sucked.

They're looking into balancing relics after 99 cap they said, even now (some) Relics are not bad.

[Cream_Soda]

I was about ready to quit the game before Abyssea had come out. Been there done that, completed all my goals but a relic and didn't feel like finishing that (time/reward value, etc. I mean shit only one pair of Spharai on my sever was dealing more damage than I, lol)

Abyssea breathed some time back into my xi life and though I'm pretty much done w/ abyssea now and haven't played much since Mayish, VW certainly hasn't done a good job of bringing me back in. Hoping this lv 99 update will be able to do so.

[brayen]

I think that they consider it a failure becoz it create a content development block. That the abyssea content is so success that it is difficult to pull out something that is better than that. And certainly they didn't plan to make Abyssea the final content for FFXI, or they would have warp them beautifully and put them on the shelves.

Now, if you are a developer, seeing how successful abyssea is, can you make something better than Abyssea and get the players to move onto the new content?

There is tons you can do. This game has so many untapped areas and events it isnt even funny. VW was a disaster of an event. It is like the worse they could of done, it is everything bad that was in abyssea with the drop rates of ridills. They should of taken the time to implement something else with more direct rewards, somewhat like the whole dynamis event. But no they stuffed it with procs and added nearly nothing new to it. Honestly there is anything but lack of things you can do to keep things as entertaining at the very least on par with abyssea if you took some time and actually played the game a bit (which i suspect the dev team does not). The one leeway i will give however, is i do not know exactly how big the whole crew is and as such am not sure how much they can actually get done etc. otherwise however, there is really little excuse to consider abyssea impossible to outdo, at least as far as my opinion is concerned.

[Kimble]

Seriously though I knew Tanaka thought Abyssea was a mistake and was trying to punish us all for having the audacity to have fun in the world of torture that he created. I just never thought he would actually come out and say it. At what point do we accept that the plane we are on is being piloted by Gary Busey and start beating each other to death over the last 2 parachutes?

Tanaka didn't create anything. Hes the Producer. Not the Director.

[Vagrua]

At least with Abyssea you could make progress only playing 2-3 hours a day. With Voidwatch, you could spam an VNM 10 hours a day and still not obtain what you wanted. You also have to put up with people leaving making the entire alliance unable to continue.

People want to see progress when they do an event with the time they put into it. Maybe not 100% drop rates on everything, but after fighting something 20-30 times...you would expect something besides others getting what you were spamming for. Most the time the person that obtains the item can't even make use of it.

Horrible system imo.

[Spiritreaver]

Drain Samba, for a while (until they stopped that), but on gear (atma is pretty much gear) there were pet buffs - like the AMK hat, or the hat in Crawler's Nest (S) - before there was Abyssea.

Of course there were some items that buffed pets before Abyssea. I think what mellowy meant was that before Abyssea and its Atma, there was never a widespread system in play that actively buffed pets in the same manner players were.

And i actually agree with that sentiment.

[cidbahamut]

Ito addresses the problem as being another issue of balance. "Originally, Voidwatch was designed as content for an alliance of 18 players. If you go in with 18, there will actually be a higher rate of reward than any other content in FFXI." Essentially, what they have done with Voidwatch is instead of a system where players hash out which members lot which equipment, all players have a higher chance to get something -- it just might not be what they want each time. "Overall, it equals out to a system where you can freelot, but item drops are much lower," says Ito.

Unfortunately, such a system required the developers to disallow trading. As Ito explains, "For example, say each player gets 5 items. You have 5 items times 18 players and they can all trade freely. Now one player could collect 90 items. That's no good." The removal of the trading option was specifically in order to counter item hoarding. Every individual participating in the content has an equal chance to get items.


http://files.sharenator.com/wtf_is_this_shit_Very_Disturbing_Childrens_Book_RE_We_dont_say_ampquotGermanampquot_in_America-s400x297-59009.jpg

[Karbuncle]

Well, Maybe i should finish Mandau and then close my account. It looks like the game is going to hell again.

Right now, I'm at the stage where Voidwatch is still somewhat enjoyable, But this is only because i get to go on THF and i do my best to see how well i can DD against the "Real DD". Eventually that enthusiasm will die out when im 0/200 on Coruscanti or Toci's and the random pick up guy we shouted for gets his 3rd one.

The idea of this system was decent in planning, but they don't realize is that someone can only take a wonderful soul-crushing so many times before they finally give up.

You give people want they want too quickly? They'll run out of things to do and quit.
You give them 2k Synth mats for 150 Fights and no method of getting the drop outside of dumb luck? They'll quit because people can only take so much shit before they get fed up.

Either way, You're losing players, Its very hard to run an MMO and keep people interested. The reality is, they still have not found a middle ground, the closest they came to middle ground was Assaults.

Point System + Random Drops. Even if you don't appraise the item you want, You're saving up for Pln. Body, or Stoic Earring, etc. They need more systems like that.

They had such a perfect chance for this with Voidwatch... Voidwatch NPCs are suppose to be these NPCs who are there to kill Void-Walkers... Why can't they sell us Gear/Weapons specially designed to slay Void-Walkers? Or something, anything to spend our Cruor on other than upgrading our Atmacite (Which at best was a very obvious way of draining Cruor from the System...)

You know, "Voidwatch: Refresh+1" Ring, or "Voidwatch: Store TP+7 Regain+1" rings... Armor specific for voidwatch. I know assault specific armor kinda flopped, but lets be serious, its because it all sucked and too difficult to get. Being able to buy the armor specific to the event, expensive or not, with points earned in that event... So long as the armor was good... Would be a goal people can work for.

Anyway, I'm aware I'm rambling... I'm almost finished. I could stand Voidwatch if it wasn't literally dumb luck. There needs to be some progressive reward system with it. Give us a use for Cruor that we get outside of Buying stuff and selling them for Gil.

There should be some types of Weapons, Armor, Earrings ,Rings/etc to buy with points earned from Voidwatch, similar to how the Assault System worked. They could cost ~500,000 Cruor so long as they were a goal you could work for while collecting your Logs.

IDK, I think if people had a goal to accomplish while they did voidwatch, It would be more bearable to not get the drop they wanted.. again

Personally, I think it was dumb of SE To make the HQ and NQ Weapons drop from the NMs... the NQ weapons should have been purchased with ~1mil Cruor from the NPCs, and the HQ rare drops from NMs... You know what I mean? Can't get Coruscanti? Save up 1mil~2mil Cruor and buy Lux Plugio(w/e).

But no, they both drop from the same NM... Why? Perfect opportunity for Progressive Reward system (NQ Weapon) and dumb-luck Reward (HQ Weapon)... and they passed it up for the HURRRRRRR route.

Same for the Synth Mats for the NQ Bodies,could have been purchased with Cruor (Ala Einherjar Abj Armor mats)

They have the potential to create progressive rewarding goals, and random-rewarding goals, and they go the full-retard path every single time.

Thats the reason the game is dying. Its never a middle ground with them, Its either "Here's some Icecream" or "Prepare your anus"

[Afania]

Voidwatch sucks for casual players, it even sucks for hardcore players. The big issue is time vs reward ratio's, this is something SE really doesn't understand how to do. Trying to control it with low drop rates is the worst method possible, many other MMO's learned this lesson a long long time ago. Points systems tend to work the best in the long run, or semi-point systems / collectables like how emp armor seals / coins are done. What it should of been is that every VW fight gives you +points, and you can opt to trade enough of those in for the R/EX bodies and items. They would be expensive enough that you'd have to collect points for months to get, but you WOULD get it and you control the rate you get it at.

Although I do agree that a point reward system makes you feel better, but it also remove the excitement of "OMG IT DROPPED". Drop/luck based system offers surprise, when you're not expecting it to drop it dropped, and that makes things interesting. Point system you always know your progress, and sometimes it become kind of a grind and not very exciting.

IMO it's better to keep both, if that 1% dropped, you'll be happy for the rest of the week. If it doesn't, at least you get something that's nice. But removing luck based system entirely just makes things not as interesting and a pure grind. And that's why many old FFXI players are not happy with Abyssea, getting proc is easy with right jobs, getting drop is easy with proc, and there are no surprise when it drops because you're expecting it to drop already.

Or maybe can make one ex/rare drop after capped lights, but it may not be the one you need since ex/rare is came from random pool of 100 different items.

[Insaniac]

Tanaka didn't create anything. Hes the Producer. Not the Director.

What exactly do you think a producer does?

[wish12oz]

The stupidity of the dev team still amazes me.

[Theytak]

The biggest, most glaring thing I've taken away from reading that rage-inducing interview is that the devs don't care at all about our feedback. They know we don't like the way they design stuff, but rather than designing stuff that we like, or even trying to come to a compromise, they pretty much flat out said "We know you guys feel this way, but we disagree. End of story. Your opinions hold no weight."

It's made even worse by the farce of this Official Forum. They think they can placate us by hiring someone like camate or gildrein to come in and tell us they care, and to give them our feed back, but they aren't actually going to listen to the feedback about anything other than glitches or bugs. It's not only insulting to the players, but it's totally unfair to the people who have to act as middlemen, because it's effectively trying to direct the blame away from the devs.

Honestly, I'm surprised this thread hasn't already been locked and deleted and swept under the rug. Lord forbid the players not be happy that the devs out and out said they don't intend to listen to our feedback.

[SpankWustler]

They have the potential to create progressive rewarding goals, and random-rewarding goals, and they go the full-retard path every single time.

Thats the reason the game is dying. Its never a middle ground with them, Its either "Here's some Icecream" or "Prepare your anus"

It's a long post so I just quoted this bit, but I agree with the sentiment. I really enjoyed systems like Limbus and Einherjar that mixed constant and random rewards in some way. I guess Dynamis worked this way too in the past, except the Relic Armor could be more of a gag gift than a reward in most cases.

Point systems and currencies leave players with a feeling they've gotten something, even if the ideal thingy didn't drop.

More than anything, though, I think variety is important. If Abyssea is the new Assault (super-casual all-around, almost all rewards come from accumulating smaller stuff) and Voidwatch is the new Salvage (relatively challenging gameplay with brutal drop rates, rewards depends on something more random than a lightning strike lottery), will there be enough variety in between?

Sometimes people want ice cream. Sometimes people want to prepare their anuses. Sometimes people want to prepare their anuses for ice cream.

[Theytak]

Sometimes people want ice cream. Sometimes people want to prepare their anuses. Sometimes people want to prepare their anuses for ice cream.

I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Can I have your babies?

[Arcon]

I'm amazed at the negativity in here. I cannot comprehend it. Does anyone but me realize that this is all makeshift content? The only mistake the development team made is not raising the level cap to 99 instantly. They knew people were impatient, and they wanted something to hold them over, hence the tumor known as Abyssea was created. And VW is the same thing, at least for now, just makeshift content until we get to 99. Sure, people will still do it, especially higher chapters, but how can you complain about something that's not even out yet? I very rarely get emotionally upset on these forums, but this is starting to grind my shit, the amount of bitching about literally nothing is mind-boggling.

Fact: Abyssea was a bad business decision. It wasn't fit for FFXI (it's not fit for any MMORPG). It was short-lived by design and it changed player mentalitiy drastically (at least of those people who didn't quit), which is highly incompatible with the the previous game, and the way the game is currently returning to. If they want to please people, they'd have to shell out similar content regularly, which means a massive investment on their part to keep the playerbase satisfied, something they don't have the resources to do. They realized that, hence what they said in that interview. Why they didn't realize it sooner is anyone's guess.

Fact: They can't keep Abyssea-like content up for any prolonged period. And that is for two reasons: firstly, they don't have the resources to shell out a middle-tier expansion every three months. Secondly, game elements would lose even more value than they already did with Abyssea. Why did all events die out? Because Abyssea-tier gear made them obsolete. Now everyone complains about sidegrade gear with Voidwatch, imagine what would happen if they increased the gear value significantly. Do you really want STR+50, DEX+50, AGI+50, Haste+25% on one piece of armor? Because at the rate they were upgraded in Abyssea it wouldn't take long to get there. So what happens with old events? Release Relic armor +10? Nyzul Armor +53? Whatever the solution would be (theoretically, because in reality there is none) it would involve introducing massive amounts of generic content, until every aspect of the game is the same, otherwise the development team would have absolutely no way to control it all. And then people would come on the forums and bitch about how generic everything is and why there's no new content, no new storyline and new areas, etc.

Fact: The old FFXI was good. You may disagree, but your opinion means jack shit, because I'm not talking about whether or not you liked it, but about whether or not it kept the players satisfied and playing (and paying), and that it did. FFXI was a thriving MMORPG for the better part of a decade, before Abyssea was introduced. Now let's look at the character progression from that era: how long did it take you to get full relic gear for your jobs? Unless you've been part of the endgame scene for several years, I'm pretty sure you still don't have it for most your jobs (unless you've been spamming Newdyna recently). How long did it take you to get a relic weapon? Normal people didn't get one. Period. How long did it take you to get Captain rank? How long to get Ebody, Mbody, some Homam or Nashira gear, hell even sea access? There was a time when you actually had to ask people whether or not they had sea access. And the process of getting that took months or even years for some people.

But the point is, they were still playing, more so than they are today. You may look back in retrospect and say how stupid it was, how much better and easier everything is now, but people still don't seem to realize that better for you doesn't mean better for the game. I already said before, the trick to any MMORPG is finding the balance between slow and steady progress and player satisfaction. If it's too slow, people will quit. If it's too fast, the development team won't be able to keep up and the game will just race faster to its own end. Abyssea was way too fast. Not only was the development team not able to keep up, but now everyone knows what fast and easy gameplay is, and they don't wanna go back.

I'm not by any means saying new content is perfect. There are some issues with VW, but concerns have been made, let's wait to see if they fucking adjust it before bashing the entire future concept of the development team. Frankly, from what I've read in here, I'll be happy if they piss you off enough to quit, because I can't imagine myself playing with people like you around bitching about everything new that will be released.


At least Abyssea allowed for actual full on LS participation.

Now it's just: "Oh hey, my shout. Bye guys got to go do Voidwatch with random strangers, that may or may not wipe"

What? If you brought more than three people to any Abyssea fight they were just standing around not doing a god damn thing. If you call "letting other people leech EXP and drops" LS friendly, then we have completely different definitions. And most VW is still done on a LS basis, using shouts to fill up missing spots.

The rest I agree with, I don't think anyone (but the development team) will argue the drop system's flaws.


Tanaka didn't create anything. Hes the Producer. Not the Director.

Right, because the producer doesn't have the final word in absolutely everything. What do you think producers do? Sit there with a dried thumb up their ass and yell at the people under him? Did you read the quoted part the OP posted, saying that Tanaka was dedicated to and involved in FFXI the entire time? Go back to trying to be smart elsewhere.

[Airget]

Abyssea was a fun concept but with the way it was executed made all previous content pretty much worthless. When you have things like dynamis, limbus, sky, sea, besieged, campaign, assaults, MMM, BCNM, ENM, ZNM, Pankration, etc drop gear that isn't worth the time/reward aspect why bother doing it when Abyssea can offer you more and you have the ability to alter your stats to make things easier. A game that use to be about all the above had turned into FFXI "Abyssea" once it was released, sure people would still hunt the King HNMS and such but with the time behind it, the newer generation of players didn't want to take the time to have to wait when in abyssea the longest you may have to wait is 15-30 mins, and that's only with a few mob types. They even made it easier when they added extra ??? to the zone to help alleviate the crowding. So in that sense I could see how it was a failure.

Before Abyssea came out all the above events were being done and people were enjoying it, people still cared about campaign and they worked hard to obtain the Shadowlord fight to gain his gear. Then of course abyssea came and the campaign land pretty much became a wasteland that no one wanted to do because it's xp factor just didn't equal to the efforts put into it.

While people may love abyssea for it's xp potential and such I think that perhaps if they had reduced it and made it an area based purely on obtaining gear/items with atmas it may have fared better in the department of balance. But they can't just get rid of it now so they have to work around it which is why the changes of FoV and GoV were made and introduced.

Abyssea pretty much summed up everything in XI into one singular event. I think that's the best way to put it. When you do that, sure it's fun but after a while you realize that you just destroyed everything else around you in creating this concept. From the developer's side I can see why they can see abyssea as a mistake. They should have implemented it with that in mind, but they never considered the balance of obtaining time as well as how players would manage to build lights at such a rate to give them a nearly limitless time in abyssea. But of course you can't just take it away now or else they would lose a lot of players if one day they just decided to balance it to a point where it was on par with the gains of other events rather then being purely superior.

Overall though I'd say they have been doing a good job slowly but surely they have drawn people out of abyssea and into the older events. The simple changes to dynamis make it a lot more friendly to attempt and a lot less stressful in terms of having to go through the same exact schedule just to fight the bosses and such.

Though with Voidwatch I do see issues, the loot system is a lot to be desired while sure you can get a lot of loot even if they are including the junk loot it just comes down to the same issue as in XIV Ifrit fight. You could fight 40 times and never see what you want, or you might see an item 1/20 times but you friend wants it yet you can't give it to them. Then there's the "luck" one may have in obtaining the loot you've tried 50 times on their first try. It's a disheartening event for those who show dedication and try hard when a person can just swoop in and get lucky, it doesn't really spell out balance.

Perhaps in the aspect of voidwatch the easiest concept I can figure is what if say you get a rare/ex you don't want, you have the option to give it back to the void and increase your reward rate based on the rarity of said item. At least then said item won't go to waste and you won't feel like you've wasted your time since you used it to increase your reward rate for next time. I think something as simple as this could help with people who get something they don't want and have nothing they can do with it. Since I can understand that giving it to others is a hard concept since everyone has a different reward rate based on the lights they raised I think the best method would be to send back said items.

[Meyi]

Do you really want STR+50, DEX+50, AGI+50, Haste+25% on one piece of armor?

After 7 years of playing and being stuck at STAT+5 being the max increment, yes.



Fact: The old FFXI was good. You may disagree, but your opinion means jack shit, because I'm not talking about whether or not you liked it, but about whether or not it kept the players satisfied and playing (and paying), and that it did. FFXI was a thriving MMORPG for the better part of a decade, before Abyssea was introduced.

Not fact, opinion.

FFXI was okay. I played not for the endgame content, but for the friends, fluid job choices, vast world, and most important, the stories.

Abyssea reminded everyone that Final Fantasy XI is a game. It's okay to log out of the game to attend to real life events. It's okay to join a party and leave, knowing full well you're not hindering those left behind. It's much better than standing around 3 hours trying to form a party or look for one, having to disband later because there are no tanks or healers.

I personally loved the fact that Abyssea was much easier. I have been able to help friends without having to ask anyone else to come help us. It's nice being able to actually progress daily. I like being able to form small groups and still accomplish things.

I like that people are more laid back about everything. People aren't as uptight about their time and the items that fall. So what if some jerk lots on your seals? Seals drop fast enough to come back later and get the rest. Eh, atma didn't drop, but that's okay because with a couple of friends, we can keep trying until we get it!

I'm not sure why anyone would be so quick to reject the opinions of a casual player base. Casuals aren't as rare as one might think. Abyssea brought a lot of good to the game, and while it may have given us a taste of power that we crave more of, it brought along a lot of positive changes to the playerbase mentality as well.

[Arcon]

Fact: The old FFXI was good. You may disagree, but your opinion means jack shit, because I'm not talking about whether or not you liked it, but about whether or not it kept the players satisfied and playing (and paying), and that it did. FFXI was a thriving MMORPG for the better part of a decade, before Abyssea was introduced.

Not fact, opinion.

Did you read past the first sentence in the quoted text? I'll reiterate for you because I'm that kind:


Fact: The old FFXI was good. You may disagree, but your opinion means jack shit, because I'm not talking about whether or not you liked it, but about whether or not it kept the players satisfied and playing (and paying), and that it did. FFXI was a thriving MMORPG for the better part of a decade, before Abyssea was introduced.

Numbers are fact. Your opinion means nothing. Don't be offended, mine means nothing as well. I know for a fact that a lot of casual players were around, because I've always, my entire FFXI life, only ever been in social LS with a majority of casual players, and we all had something to do. Even now I'm leading a purely social LS. I'm not disregarding anyone. There were very few people that had a problem with the previous system, now there are a lot more, because Abyssea reminded them of what they couldn't have. Abyssea was an offline game disguised as MMOG content. It was short-lived and a burst of enjoyment and satisfaction. Now it's over, even most casual people I know are tired of it, most have actually quit already.

I didn't say anything I didn't already say in my previous post, in fact, your entire post was exactly what I said didn't matter: your opinion. My previous post is my answer to that.

And no, you don't want those stats on gear.

[Natasha]

Fact: Abyssea was a bad business decision. It wasn't fit for FFXI (it's not fit for any MMORPG). It was short-lived by design and it changed player mentalitiy drastically (at least of those people who didn't quit), which is highly incompatible with the the previous game, and the way the game is currently returning to. If they want to please people, they'd have to shell out similar content regularly, which means a massive investment on their part to keep the playerbase satisfied, something they don't have the resources to do. They realized that, hence what they said in that interview. Why they didn't realize it sooner is anyone's guess.


Generally agree... really liked this part.

Edit: yes there are others ... just almost all the people who loved ffxi the way it was before abyssea are gone. not a specific response, just my reaction to you pretty much being the only person in here thinking like that :o

[SpankWustler]

I'm amazed at the negativity in here. I cannot comprehend it. Does anyone but me realize that this is all makeshift content? The only mistake the development team made is not raising the level cap to 99 instantly. They knew people were impatient, and they wanted something to hold them over, hence the tumor known as Abyssea was created. And VW is the same thing, at least for now, just makeshift content until we get to 99. Sure, people will still do it, especially higher chapters, but how can you complain about something that's not even out yet? I very rarely get emotionally upset on these forums, but this is starting to grind my shit, the amount of bitching about literally nothing is mind-boggling.

I'd like to think people are being hyperbolic because that's the easiest way to express discontent using text. As someone who is apprehensive about the amount of new content that will exist at 99 due to the development team's limited resources, most of the responses seem pretty over the top to me, too.

I can not imagine anyone literally thinking something like:

"And lo did the Maleficent Dark Demon Emperor Tanaka-sama don his dark robe and did he take up a goblet filled with the blood of a thirty-year-old virgin who married a cartoon character and did he don his dark dress socks, and he smote and laid low all drop rates that stood before him. For thirty days and thirty nights did Demon Emperor Tanaka-sama code the drop rates of Voidwatch til they sank lower than the bowels earth.

From his dark and dank lungs did echo forth a decree that never again should anything of value appear in the Treasure Pool. Henceforth, the sky hung low and black and the dead seas stank of cat urine most sulfurous." - Ito 12:15

[Natasha]

I'd like to think people are being hyperbolic because that's the easiest way to express discontent using text. As someone who is apprehensive about the amount of new content that will exist at 99 due to the development team's limited resources, most of the responses seem pretty over the top to me, too.

I can not imagine anyone literally thinking something like:

"And lo did the Maleficent Dark Demon Emperor Tanaka-sama don his dark robe and did he take up a goblet filled with the blood of a thirty-year-old virgin who married a cartoon character and did he don his dark dress socks, and he smote and laid low all drop rates that stood before him. For thirty days and thirty nights did Demon Emperor Tanaka-sama code the drop rates of Voidwatch til they sank lower than the bowels earth.

From his dark and dank lungs did echo forth a decree that never again should anything of value appear in the Treasure Pool. Henceforth, the sky hung low and black and the dead seas stank of cat urine most sulfurous." - Ito 12:15

What a creative taru! You should totally have more medals by your name~ *no sarcasm, you might consider writing something*

[Arcon]

"And lo did the Maleficent Dark Demon Emperor Tanaka-sama don his dark robe and did he take up a goblet filled with the blood of a thirty-year-old virgin who married a cartoon character and did he don his dark dress socks, and he smote and laid low all drop rates that stood before him. For thirty days and thirty nights did Demon Emperor Tanaka-sama code the drop rates of Voidwatch til they sank lower than the bowels earth.

From his dark and dank lungs did echo forth a decree that never again should anything of value appear in the Treasure Pool. Henceforth, the sky hung low and black and the dead seas stank of cat urine most sulfurous." - Ito 12:15

I love you.

[Kristal]

I think the biggest mistake with abyssea was setting the minimum level cap to 30. Instead of doing 30-75 in parties, eating food, wearing up to date gear , skilling up you went along, you now just jump into abyssea wearing nothing, and come out 9 hours later on 95. Ofcourse, horribly underskilled, so SE had to add several skillgain boosters or most people would still be struggling to unlock quested weaponskills by now.

Abyssea and the level cap rise to 99 were bound to have a big effect on gameplay, creating an entirely new endgame, but I wish the devs actually thought these important things through before jumping off the cliff.

[Morier]

SE didn't have time to think about all of these things pre-abyssea. They kinda treated this game and it's community as a red headed stepchild for awhile. Then 14 bombed hard and suddenly they needed to recoup money and started throwing things at FFXI to keep people and make more come to it.

Then made these forums to make it look like they care so much about our feedback.They are nice and all but if they cared so much why didn't these forums exist pre ff14 crash? Now that the sinking boat that is 14 has now stopped leaking due to FFXI they can sit back and reflect on what they think they should have done.

I love abyssea and how it changed the game, but it all was just a kneejerk reaction to 14's flop.

[xiozen]

Whenever new content is released to an MMO there is always a chance; a possibility that said new content will have a detrimental effect on the "overall" gaming experience. Abyssea, sad to say, did a few things--perhaps unintentional or unforeseen--but done nevertheless: 1) Casual gaming brought to a completely different level--to be on-par or perhaps was threatened by, WoW and its play-style environs. 2) Created the ability for exploits by inadvertently allowing the "let me get 2 or 3 additional accounts and box my stuffz" mentality. Lastly, 3) Created an air of relative "ease" as an expectant aspect of future content releases.

I enjoyed Abyssea and continue to enjoy it--but I am also a very casual gamer. The "Balance" mentioned in the article is and should be a valid concern from the development perspective; primarily because an MMO is suppose to "last"; all that running around must serve a purpose. Things cannot be "easy" in an MMO and expect it to live. FFXI last as long as it did because it did the MMO-thing, right... made content that was well balanced and required (key word), players to interact and rely on one another (not create multiple accounts and utilize those as your WHM, BLM and TANK jobs from different systems). Large link-shells had purpose and a cohesiveness which added a benefit to the lotting system from yesteryear.

Thinking back to those days of Dynamis when you found yourself attending soley to see if that piece of rare armor would drop. Even then we spat and argued about the drop rate; LolDrg or Lolpup would be the butt of the jokes and we would sit with anticipation after every fight to see if that armor was for the job we were currently specializing in or looking at leveling. It is this very anticipation which is gone now... thanks to Abyssea. So the question I can ask, along with everyone else, as well as the SE Development team, is can FFXI truly recover from what Abyssea did?

With such a diverse world-wide community and the ever present saying "You can please some people some of the time but not all people all of the time"; we're left grasping at whatever it is the SE Devs can spirit up and bring to the table to be weighed against "Abyssea content" because that's the taste that has been left in our mouths. Voidwatch... I'll only end up repeating what's already been said by so many others before. I am unsure of FFXI's future, but for me, it has been 10 years---my longest subscription in any game ever... and I will stay until the servers shut down for good; because home is where my FFXI heart is. I have faith things will balance out fairly well in the end.

[Kimble]

An internal producer is heavily involved in the development of, usually, a single game. Responsibilities for this position vary from company to company, but in general, the person in this position has the following duties:

Negotiating contracts, including licensing deals
Acting as a liaison between the development staff and the upper stakeholders (publisher or executive staff)
Developing and maintaining schedules and budgets
Overseeing creative (art and design) and technical development (game programming) of the game
Ensuring timely delivery of deliverables (such as Milestones)
Scheduling timely quality assurance (testing)
Arranging for beta testing and focus groups, if applicable
Arranging for localization

Thats what a producer does. Go be a dumb ass somewhere else.

[Runespider]

Old FFXI (and seemingly what they want us to go back to):

:Schedules, having your whole week set out with days and times to be at certain events (the one day you miss, the item you wanted all year drops and went free lot).
:Best content/gear for 5% of the playerbase, crap for everyone else.
:Waiting around, big groups... lots of gather time before the event.
:Worry of constantly trying to find a group that do events in your time zone or at a time you can attend.
:Horribly low drop rates where rewards come every 6-12 months++ and just doing the event for no reward at all in most cases. When I say horribly low drop rates I'm talking years to get one piece of gear that was marginally better than what you already have.
:Having to carry on doing the event for probably years after you get your gear due to the horribly low/random drop rates to help others get the gear, cause you now feel guilty for leaving now you got your stuff.
:Leaving friends to join shells that did the content you want to do since social shells couldn't do it.
:Linkshell leaders watching you to make sure you are at events and not doing something else during EVENT time.
:Every aspect of the game being down to a roll of the dice, with odds firmly set against you.
:Being the best meaning the people with the best bots/hacks (bot claiming, flee hacking around salvage etc).
:Having all the best gear needing a parser to differentiate you from joe scrub.
:sidegrades forever.

Abyssea XI:

:You can make progress on your gear in stages, seals/+2 items/emp items, few kills..a little closer to your goal.
:Content open to everyone.
:Can do everything with some friends, don't need to dump them to join some LS full of people you don't really like anyway.
:No schedules, no worry about being on a GMT/EU/JP server or finding groups to fit.
:No big LS only content, open to everyone. PUGS flourish.
:Far fewer botting/cheating and far less reward for doing it.
:Content having very few bottlenecks so even if people are hording stuff you want to do within an hour or so they will be gone.
:You are regularly rewarded for your time invested.
:Getting all the best gear/atmas etc turning you into a powerhouse.
:genuine gear upgrades.

Only problem I had with Aby was the level cap to enter being way too low and cheap brews (most stupid idea ever). Aside from that everything was fine.

The Tanaka thing now is beside the point, whoever is to blame for how the game is going for the last year now doesn't matter cause it's in full force and they are saying more to come. The timing from being fired from FFXIV and FFXI turning to crap is still very suspicious but whatever.

FFXI has been casting a giant shadow over FFXIV and I don't think they expected Aby to be as popular as it turned out to be (bringing back masses of old players no less).

[Kysaiana]

Abyssea wasn't a failure, but I will agree it changed player attitude towards battle content. No longer would people spend 2hrs fighting a monster only to have 2 wind crystals drop. Now, in the wake of Abyssea, we have Voidwatch, and we're back to square one with horrible drop rates. To use a tired expression, you can't feed people crap sandwiches for years, suddenly offer them steak for a year and then go back to the crap sandwiches.

To everyone saying the game was great back in the day because it was a terrible grind for gear, I'd have to disagree. FFXI hasn't lasted this long because all the players had saint-like patience for drops. It lasted this long because, until recently, I had been getting semi-regular expansions which offered new areas to explore, new battle content, and most importantly, (to me and many others at least), story. A lot of people play this game because it's an MMO and they love grinding for months and months to min/max their character to optimal performance. This is all well and good, but a lot of people play this game because it's a Final Fantasy game. The lack of any new story lines to follow means I have nothing left to do but grind out magian weapons and the failure that is Voidwatch on weekends.

Abyssea was fun but I wouldn't want all content to be like it. I especially hate the weakness system and has spread like a cancer to nearly all content in this game now.

[Rydstrom]

i completely agree with tanaka.. the balance of the game was horribly done in abyssea. war is to OP whm ONLY healer pld all but useless brd all but useless i could go on. nothing he said there was wrong. if you want easy content go play wow i didnt sign up to see my apoc drk useless to my mnk with below average gear please fix mr tanaka

[Urteil]

i completely agree with tanaka.. the balance of the game was horribly done in abyssea. war is to OP whm ONLY healer pld all but useless brd all but useless i could go on. nothing he said there was wrong. if you want easy content go play wow i didnt sign up to see my apoc drk useless to my mnk with below average gear please fix mr tanaka

I don't think you're smart enough to own an Apocalypse.

[Arcon]

Overseeing creative (art and design) and technical development (game programming) of the game

You just made my point nicely. Good day to you too.


Bullshit

You like putting your finger in your ear and sing to make all those nasty voices go away, do you?

Basically what you said was what I said, only you were horribly exaggerative to the point of being wrong. The very first thing I said to you in this thread still stands: You don't get it. No one disagrees with you that Abyssea is more fun. That is not the fucking point. Abyssea is bad. It did not belong in FFXI. It's the reason why every server is dead, not Voidwatch. Hell, last time I checked they didn't delete Abyssea yet. If people enjoy it so much, why are the serves almost empty, even after two merges?

Enjoy it all you want, that doesn't make it better. That doesn't make the problem go away.

[Runespider]

i completely agree with tanaka.. the balance of the game was horribly done in abyssea. war is to OP whm ONLY healer pld all but useless brd all but useless i could go on. nothing he said there was wrong. if you want easy content go play wow i didnt sign up to see my apoc drk useless to my mnk with below average gear please fix mr tanaka

Did you just get an apoc? relics were never very impressive. There is always an OP DD job, before Aby brd was overpowered, rdm was the best healer.

[Neisan_Quetz]

FFXI's population was in decline before Abyssea was released, not saying Abyssea didn't eventually compound the problem.

[Arcon]

Did you just get an apoc? relics were never very impressive.

I've had just about enough of your shenanigans. Stop trolling your own threads. You're either not serious or the only relic you've ever seen was a Claustrum.

[Urteil]

I've had just about enough of your shenanigans. Stop trolling your own threads. You're either not serious or the only relic you've ever seen was a Claustrum.

Woah Bro, that dispel is pretty good (in ballista.)


Oh who am I kidding, get a fucking Terra's Staff.




All the silly Japanese designers had to do, was make minimum level into abyssea 75.

But now they are holding their heads going "OH NO DESU, WHY SUCH FAILURE NANDAYO".

Seriously, not that hard.

[ShadowHeart]

they merged servers due to massively declining numbers before merge we were at steady 2500 members + daily they crunched all the servers drastically increasing numbers and competition but that being said many months later now the numbers on most servers are about where they were previously showing that in last 6-12 months they lost almost half their numbers of players... its an aged and dated game but i am still here even though have experienced almost every bit of content available. I have always loved ffxi but like any good thing i know one day all good things come to an end...

[darkhorror]

If anything this is showing us how this developer thinks and if that is how we will go from now on I will be quitting again here in a few months. Random drops should be for crafting and items that you can sell, not for a 1% drop rate. Those items should be bought with points or something so you can work towards something while having a chance to get other items you want.

[CrAZYVIC]

Abbysea not was a mistake.

The mistake was Giving us "God mode for fight vs insects". This happen when you dont take the time for test the things with detail.

If they dont make a Event give the comunity challenges and good rewards the next year we will have a x3, x4 Servers Merge.

A good tip for the devs.

If you guys want make a good balance.
Listen the Comunity ask the Comunity for new Enemies or battlefields.
Read the new DD, TANK, etc forums
Read our posts here
in the Test server Call voluntaries for test new events BEFORE even announce this events

We are in the same Boat if this die FFXI dev team will die too.

[Raksha]

I couldn't give 2 shits about whether abyssea was a failure or not, I'm just pissed off that they still think the voidwatch loot system isn't massively retarded and in need of redesign.

[Tamoa]

I'm fairly certain the server merges would have taken place even without Abyssea. In fact some did, like Pandemonium merging with Asura in March 2010. During EU prime time (say 4-6pm EST) Pandemonium had 7-800 players online. I'll check later and see how many are online at that time on Asura today, an ordinary Monday evening. This game is getting old and a decline in server population was bound to happen either way.

In my opinion, the problem with Abyssea was that everything became so easy with brews, atmas and cruor buffs and whatnot. Not everybody handles having to go back to time sinks/grinding/low drop rates very well.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The only things I ever felt were over the top in Abyssea was brewing Shinryu (not even necessary but really cheapened the fight), 200k Brews and infinite reraise on Apoc atma.

[Mirabelle]

Well as a casual player, I've got a couple comments:
1) Abyssea was the greatest boon for casuals. I'm still not anywhere done with Abyssea and its been out a couple years now. I always feel I'm progressing in my goals, not stuck in a grind. It was fun and challenging to collect wins, atma, abyssites. It's now fun to low man things that took an alliance earlier on.
2) I really don't think SE ever intended for best gear to go to the common folk. But sadly they seemed to have meant it to go to those with uncommonly good luck and or perserverance, rather than those with skill. This has always been a problem with the game. You never had to be particularly skillful to get the best gear. Just be on all the time, befriend some skilled players, get lucky with some drops.

The only problem I saw with Abyssea was how it closed out certain jobs. VW seems to help that. But in the end VW seems shallow. No new areas, no quests, rare drops even with good lights.

In the end I think the devs see Abyssea as a mistake because it will be impossible to do something better (or they're too lazy to come up with something better). I have no probelm going back to being a weak ass character in a difficult and challenging land. But at least make it fun and accessible to the casual at the same time.

[Hayward]

The comments in that interview have to be the most absurd I've read in some time and the posts defending them even more so. I cannot agree in any way that Abyssea was bad for FFXI. If nothing else, it saved the franchise from falling into irrelevance. The argument that it raised our expectations too high is rather unbelievable on its face--to be honest, it represents what MMOs can and should be (i.e. challenging yet rewarding in proportion to effort). Their contention that Abyssea de-emphasized the concept of teamwork doesn't even merit a response. Let's not even get into the gear being too accessible argument, which basically boils down to a lot of crushed egos looking to reclaim their artificially-constructed elite status.

If the old construct of FFXI never came back, it would be too soon as far as I'm concerned. I can accept a transition out of Abyssea, but there's a right and wrong way to do it. The developers, so far, are choosing the wrong way by pandering to a loud and exclusionary minority of players who are far too into themselves to realize they are killing the game.

[Insaniac]

An internal producer is heavily involved in the development of, usually, a single game. Responsibilities for this position vary from company to company, but in general, the person in this position has the following duties:

Negotiating contracts, including licensing deals
Acting as a liaison between the development staff and the upper stakeholders (publisher or executive staff)
Developing and maintaining schedules and budgets
Overseeing creative (art and design) and technical development (game programming) of the game
Ensuring timely delivery of deliverables (such as Milestones)
Scheduling timely quality assurance (testing)
Arranging for beta testing and focus groups, if applicable
Arranging for localization

Thats what a producer does. Go be a dumb ass somewhere else.You managed to google and copy/paste evidence against your argument. GG

[ShadowHeart]

all they had to do with abyssea was make it level 70-75+ to enter...

[Daniel_Hatcher]

all they had to do with abyssea was make it level 70-75+ to enter...

Even if they did that it would only remove the leveling aspect, fast leveling isn't the problem. In leveling from 30-99 you learn close to nothing about the job that'd be used in endgame in Abyssea, and before it.

ATMA and Brew was Abyssea's problem, for an MMO it made the game that wasn't ridiculously hard to begin with much easier to the point there was no challenge. It made things only really require 3 people Tank, Healer and BLM.

Abyssea could have been brilliant, not that I dislike it, had the ATMA of been a lot less powerful and Brews didn't exist. It allowed Abyssea to be rushed through when they had no real plan for the future.

[Ketaru]

ATMA and Brew was Abyssea's problem, for an MMO it made the game that wasn't ridiculously hard to begin with much easier to the point there was no challenge. It made things only really require 3 people Tank, Healer and BLM

My sentiments exactly. I thought Abyssea was brilliant when it was first released. Atma was very limited. Brew was just this mystical thing that was sold by the NPC and most people didn't actually know what it did. It was still a legitimate group event that had low barriers of entry and was very welcoming to most people, regardless of playing style or job.

Then it just went over the top...

[Ryce]

Yeah... I don't know how anyone can think Abyssea was bad for XI. It lowered difficulty expectations? It emboldened n00bs?

The way I see it, casual players were finally allowed to collect items that (currently) feel like the cream of the crop. We could become superman for a brief stint with a brew and demolish a too-tough opponent. We could rake in enough exp to actually consider playing those 3rd and 4th choice jobs that we never had the time to level.

All of this was great. Less stressful, less schedule-dependant, less time consuming over all. As a result, more people had more fun with the game. Sure there are a lot of grumpy relic-holders and disgruntled HNM linkshells that are just now realizing how much time they've wasted over the last 5 years, but the game doesn't need to cater to them all the time.

The good news for players wanting more of a grind and more of an artificial challenge (organizing an effective linkshell and spending the most hours online) is that we are not talking about end game with Abyssea. More than likely, new challenges will be released along with the 99 cap that will keep you busy for years to come. Abyssea will be to 99 what Campaign was to 75... casual play with decent rewards, but not end game.

When that new content, and it's hard-to-obtain rewards become the new 1337 status symbols, all of us softies will be left to meddle with our AF3 and low-man activities while the "hardcore" player base begins establishing themselves once again.

[Insaniac]

I don't think ease really has anything to do with abyssea being unsustainable in the devs eyes. It's just that you could build your party and go get what you wanted with near certainty. They could have turned the dial down on drop rates ever so slightly and extended the life of abyssea by months if not years. Really what happened is the pendulum got pulled too far in one direction and now (hopefully) it's at the height of a swing back in the other direction but I have no faith in this team to let it swing back. Maybe if we are lucky we end up with content that's only as soul crushing as salvage.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

I don't think ease really has anything to do with abyssea being unsustainable in the devs eyes. It's just that you could build your party and go get what you wanted with near certainty. They could have turned the dial down on drop rates ever so slightly and extended the life of abyssea by months if not years. Really what happened is the pendulum got pulled too far in one direction and now (hopefully) it's at the height of a swing back in the other direction but I have no faith in this team to let it swing back. Maybe if we are lucky we end up with content that's only as soul crushing as salvage.

In a way it did. Even dropping the drop rates somewhat, you could still spam the NM's with 3 people, and even end up with that item in 1~2 days at the most. (make note I said spam) there was no difficulty to any of the NM's and what little difficulty they had SE kept adding stuff to completely anull it. This is bad design when Abyssea was the only real endgame they had at that time. Even now they're struggling, with Voidwatch being somewhat what Abyssea should have been (bar rewards) and the rejuvenation of old content such as Salvage and Nyzul Isle.

[Greatguardian]

Edit: Due to the fast movement of this thread, this would appear out of context. If you don't think it applies to you, it probably doesn't.

I T BLOODY T:

THE REASON ABYSSEA IS BAD IS BECAUSE OF E X BLOODY P.

Christ on a bloody pogo stick doing the macarena, who gives a flying snickerdoodle about EXP?

Changing the level entry wouldn't have done jack bloody shit aside from make players level up slower, which has absolutely nothing to do with why Abyssea may be considered a poor overall choice by the Devs.

The issues with Abyssea, which are quite legitimate, are in the Midgame content - not EXP. Primeval Brews dropping to 200k was a horrible design decision. Atmas, Abyssites, and NMs were poorly balanced between low-tier and high-tier players. Content was repetitive rather than immersive, and hardcore groups capped out on everything within months.

The Devs wanted to open Abyssea up to everybody. That means they designed even the hardest NMs in Abyssea (aside from Shinryu) to be defeatable by a group of 6-18 players of halfway-sensible job assignment wearing full teal/perle/aurore. What this meant is anyone who had half decent gear and atmas could pulverize the entirety of Abyssea content solo or duo.

The Devs wanted to include even more options for solo players to kill strong NMs, so they made Brews readily available. This meant everyone had a slew of brews to fling at whatever the hell they felt like smashing that day.

Abyssea was poorly balanced overall because it attempted to appeal to too wide of an audience at the same time. Any content that is friendly and doable for the absolute minimum requirements in numbers, skill, and gear, is going to be demolished by players with any or all of the above at their disposal.

You can not make singular content for FFXI that will be balanced for both Low-tier and High-tier players. It will never, ever happen. The gap is too wide. A party of 6 high-tier players are going to be at least 10 times more battle effective than a party of 6 low-tier players.

What they should have done?

Keep Abyssea how it is. Remove Af3+2 from it. Allow players to upgrade to AF3+1 and "WoE" weapons there. Add harder content. Put NMs for Empyreans and AF3+2 in the harder content. Voila. Problem solved.

Or if you want to be really finicky, keep Abyssea how it is including Emps/AF3+2. Just include harder content that drops a ton more stuff. Fight Abyssea-Dragua for 1-2 scales, or OURYU THE WORLD EATER THREE POINT OOOHHHH for 10-15 scales.

Either would have been fine.

Abyssea's biggest fault is the fact that it tried to be everything. Nothing in FFXI can ever be everything, ever.

PS: Seriously. No one gives a shit about EXP. The level cap in Abyssea is not important. Skill ups are easily done overnight in Castle Zvahl [S] for combat skills or Lumoria for magic skills. Get over it.

[Shibayama]

Well, what this all boils down to is:

To anybody who has ever expressed frustration with these forums, asking why the devs don't care about so-and-so aspect that the playerbase cares about or thinks is flawed.

They don't care guys. They had something that was mostly greeted with applause - the customers *liked* it and they say Well it was a failure because we deviated from our tried-and-true timesink style - we will now be focusing on balance based on what *we* think is best not from something that actually works in a real game environment with real people.

Like the whole comment about how now VW has "More treasure than ever before! Oh but you can't trade it and by "treasure" we mostly mean "85% garbage" and its randomly distributed so you can't even lot it if you need it." The individual player does not care that more people are getting more logs or whatever - I know that you cant just distribute all the best gear all the time cuz then nobody would come back but there has to be *some* was to keep content relevant other than this whole .5% drop rate thing that you invest 2-3 hours a day every so often a week based on how often your group goes.

So there you go guys - you can stop being surprised and angry when the devs ignore all your points and basically do whatever they want. Just post about actual buggy content and yer good.

[Greatguardian]

Just post about actual buggy content and yer good.

Like the Beetle's Right Foot that's still broken on the brand new altered beetle model that was released in the new VWNM series?

I swear they're just trolling at this point.

[Insaniac]

In a way it did. Even dropping the drop rates somewhat, you could still spam the NM's with 3 people, and even end up with that item in 1~2 days at the most. (make note I said spam) there was no difficulty to any of the NM's and what little difficulty they had SE kept adding stuff to completely anull it. This is bad design when Abyssea was the only real endgame they had at that time. Even now they're struggling, with Voidwatch being somewhat what Abyssea should have been (bar rewards) and the rejuvenation of old content such as Salvage and Nyzul Isle. With the amount of content inside abyssea and limited stone time (initially) it kinda needed to be lowman. Making content like that require 12-18 people would have made it simply unrealistic for most people and would have limited it to LS only which would have been terrible for the +1s and +2s. I guess making some of the gear dropping mobs require larger groups would have made sense though which is where your argument starts making a lot of sense. Maybe abyssea should have had a wider gap between the 2 levels of content. Things like Pankrator Rani Raja Ovni Hadhayosh ect ect could have been setup to require LSs and +1s +2s and Emps could have remained low man grinds.

[Kimble]

I like how you guys pick out one out of 20 things that supports your argument. Selective reading much? Over seeing means to supervise and make sure things are running on time to make deadlines.

The part after that:

In short, the internal producer is ultimately responsible for timely delivery and final quality of the game.

For small games, the producer may interact directly with the programming and creative staff. For larger games, the producer will seek the assistance of the lead programmer, art lead, game designer and testing lead. While it is customary for the producer to meet with the entire development staff from time to time, for larger games, they will only meet with the leads on a regular basis to keep updated on the development status.

For most games, the producer does not have a large role but does have some influence on the development of the game design. While not a game designer, the producer has to weave the wishes of the publisher or upper management into the design. They usually seek the assistance of the game designer in this effort. So the final game design is a result the effort of the designer and some influence of the producer.

In general, the producer is not the "boss" of the people on the game development team, but the "boss" of the game. So while a programmer may answer to a programming director, where matters of the game are involved, they answer to the producer. Producers may issue reprimands or issue accolades, but usually the fate of the developer's employment is not in the hands of the producer. So while they may suggest termination or promotions of certain employees, the producer normally cannot fire or promote team members single-handedly.

The Producer is more of a middle man and basically ensures things run smoothly. You guys like to think he creates everything in this game just so you have someone to blame.

[nyheen]

abyessa was a good idea. but i think only thing imo that was a mistake was letting abyssea lvl 30+ having it at least 70+ would of been fine. would slow down/stop all the leeching there. it killed alot of low lvl pts.

seems like now and days when people looking pt it just to leech. get boring fast. with the exp boost and auto sign up exp pages etc it alot faster to lvl 1-70+ then what it was back in the days. would bring back more people in the low lvl area. but hey that just my Opinion, i just dont see how it fun afk/leeching lvl 1-95 :(

[Zirael]

Reading about developers of the game I play being worried I might have too much fun and feel of accomplishment by reaching my various goals feels... sad. That's not what games exist for?

[scaevola]

Abyssea reminded everyone that Final Fantasy XI is a game. It's okay to log out of the game to attend to real life events. It's okay to join a party and leave, knowing full well you're not hindering those left behind. It's much better than standing around 3 hours trying to form a party or look for one, having to disband later because there are no tanks or healers.


This is actually a really important point and why I am glad to know Abyssea will still be around even as new content abandons its model as we move forward. Challenging events for the best gear are great and all, but mundane grinding like XP/Merits and making money shouldn't be white-knuckle stressfests. If I feel like leveling a job, I am doing that and not something more involved specifically because I don't want to play HR Manager right at that moment; even if you think Abyssea gives too much XP too quickly I think we can agree that an Abyssea alliance can be down 3 or 4 people at any given time and not notice their absence is a good thing for getting in and leaving quickly with minimum hassle. If Abyssea were renamed "Alternative to Oh God Why Bother If No Bards Are Logged In" I doubt it would draw the retrospective ire it does.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

abyessa was a good idea. but i think only thing imo that was a mistake was letting abyssea lvl 30+ having it at least 70+ would of been fine. would slow down/stop all the leeching there. it killed alot of low lvl pts.

seems like now and days when people looking pt it just to leech. get boring fast. with the exp boost and auto sign up exp pages etc it alot faster to lvl 1-70+ then what it was back in the days. would bring back more people in the low lvl area. but hey that just my Opinion, i just dont see how it fun afk/leeching lvl 1-95 :(

30-95

And it isn't, but what you can go off and do while leeching is fun, unlike conventional leveling, and before skilling up is mentioned again. That's easy as hell.

[Insaniac]

I like how you guys pick out one out of 20 things that supports your argument. Selective reading much? Over seeing means to supervise and make sure things are running on time to make deadlines.

The part after that:

In short, the internal producer is ultimately responsible for timely delivery and final quality of the game.

For small games, the producer may interact directly with the programming and creative staff. For larger games, the producer will seek the assistance of the lead programmer, art lead, game designer and testing lead. While it is customary for the producer to meet with the entire development staff from time to time, for larger games, they will only meet with the leads on a regular basis to keep updated on the development status.

For most games, the producer does not have a large role but does have some influence on the development of the game design. While not a game designer, the producer has to weave the wishes of the publisher or upper management into the design. They usually seek the assistance of the game designer in this effort. So the final game design is a result the effort of the designer and some influence of the producer.

In general, the producer is not the "boss" of the people on the game development team, but the "boss" of the game. So while a programmer may answer to a programming director, where matters of the game are involved, they answer to the producer. Producers may issue reprimands or issue accolades, but usually the fate of the developer's employment is not in the hands of the producer. So while they may suggest termination or promotions of certain employees, the producer normally cannot fire or promote team members single-handedly.

The Producer is more of a middle man and basically ensures things run smoothly. You guys like to think he creates everything in this game just so you have someone to blame.
This argument is tired and you are wrong. Tanaka is the single most important voice when it comes to FFXI.

[Kimble]

Right, I guess the director does nothing then. lol So much rage.

[Mystaticromance]

Was I the only one that saw this interview as just a public display of the internal analysis of abyssea? Everything has its pros and cons, this interview put some of them in public light. It does not mean that they want their players to be unhappy. Game balance is essential, otherwise you have everyone running around on the same exact job. What is the fun in that?

[Insaniac]

Right, I guess the director does nothing then. lol So much rage.

Because I said that right? The director is obviously a close second. Below him are the directors of the individual aspects of the design. The director is their boss and Tanaka is the directors boss.

[Natasha]

I really cannot believe you people. so disappointed in you~

[Kimble]

Because I said that right? The director is obviously a close second. Below him are the directors of the individual aspects of the design. The director is their boss and Tanaka is the directors boss.

So you honestly think the Producer creates the game, designs it, etc?

I think a lot of people really don't understand what a producer does.

He basically just makes sure shit is done on time and that people are on task and is a middle man better the game developers in the higher ups who pay to have the game made.

You can be in charge of people with out having hands on experience with what they are doing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Look, in regards to "not that debate again", the most we got out of that interview was Tanaka was involved with both XI and XIV at the same time, and he knew what was going on when they were developing Abyssea. You can speculate on the rest all you want.

[Luvbunny]

Gaming should be about fun, not a challenge, after a hard day at work, the last thing I am looking forward is drama, frustration and "artificial challenge" or waiting for at least an hour or more to get 18 people ready to do this and that. Abyssea and most of ToAU content is awesome (and WoE if only more people do it). The old grind of FFXI is horrible, boring, and beyond retarded - Abyssea put the fun from the get go and make the game more meaningful since now I can just hang out and chill with 1-3 other people instead of having constantly finding 5 people with the "right xyz" jobs. I know some of the few hardcore are looking for the most difficult and the most grind type of content - which they got voidwatch for that - and yet still not happy about that. What SE should do is put out more fun, easy, and enjoyable content that you only need small group to complete (assaults, salvage, nyzul, moblin maze, abyssea) with fast direct access to the battlefields or large content like campaign and walk of echoes where you can just log in, have fun, get your loot and repeat over and over (these are just as boring and grindy as voidwatch, but at least you can jump into the action and no waiting around required).

Personally I think the developer team are just lazy, Abyssea opened a big can of worms that is hard to come up with things better than that. They can easily come up with something similar though - but seems that they are way too lazy even for this. They can also update existing older contents that no one bother to do anymore (including old players) and refresh it with more items. As a company, their goal should be attracting new subscribers and keeping existing ones. Abyssea did amazing for new players since it immediately put FUN & ENJOYABLE content right out of the gate for them. As a 10 years old game, there are still gazillion content to do even for veteran players, but now you do not NEED 18 people for most of these contents.

A lot of people seems to forget how boring the game is before abyssea - where merit party only wants certain jobs, where most of the contents are unaccessible unless you have a dedicated LS, and where everything else is a boring grindfest with artificial difficulty where things take forever to complete. This is a game - NOT a career, NOT work - it should be about fun and enjoyment.

[Natasha]

So you honestly think the Producer creates the game, designs it, etc?

I think a lot of people really don't understand what a producer does.

He basically just makes sure shit is done on time and that people are on task and is a middle man better the game developers in the higher ups who pay to have the game made.

You can be in charge of people with out having hands on experience with what they are doing.

That is every bit incorrect, while that may be 'standard' there are producers who actually 'designed' the project. Producer involvement can vary drastically.

[Natasha]

Gaming should be about fun, not a challenge, after a hard day at work, the last thing I am looking forward is drama, frustration and "artificial challenge" or waiting for at least an hour or more to get 18 people ready to do this and that. Abyssea and most of ToAU content is awesome (and WoE if only more people do it). The old grind of FFXI is horrible, boring, and beyond retarded - Abyssea put the fun from the get go and make the game more meaningful since now I can just hang out and chill with 1-3 other people instead of having constantly finding 5 people with the "right xyz" jobs. I know some of the few hardcore are looking for the most difficult and the most grind type of content - which they got voidwatch for that - and yet still not happy about that. What SE should do is put out more fun, easy, and enjoyable content that you only need small group to complete (assaults, salvage, nyzul, moblin maze, abyssea) with fast direct access to the battlefields or large content like campaign and walk of echoes where you can just log in, have fun, get your loot and repeat over and over (these are just as boring and grindy as voidwatch, but at least you can jump into the action and no waiting around required).

While that is one way to look at games... It is silly to think that ffxi should be this way... from the very beginning the game was treated more like a 'world' and was about exploration, adventure, stories, it was meant to be a long road.

If I want a game that feels like a 'game' as you say, I wouldn't be spending money every month for it and I'd go play peggle or chess or something like that.

[TybudX]

... while anyone with a pulse would understand how the atma system wouldn't outright be reincarnated in future events, there wasn't much reason to eliminate other perks like reasonable drop rates and fights a party or so could handle. I can't think of many who yearn for the old days of HNM drama, point systems, and the hassles of managing 18+ people for an event or two. Current job balance is also pretty laughable...

The thing about 'old' FFXI is that a party could handle most content, provided they had suitable job selection and proper buffs/debuffs. Were drop rates bad? Yes, but bad drop rates were amplified when a group would need to do a single event multiple times for one or two drops that had waiting lists, eg Armlets or RDM hat. It was made worse by groups crippling themselves with terrible job set ups that might include a single BRD or COR, rarely both, maybe one or two healers, an assortment of poorly geared DDs, and a PLD. You would be lucky to see a quarter of the players use any food at all.

Then you would have somebody come along with a couple DDs, a BRD, a RDM, maybe two other people, they would use food, swap gear, use pdt/mdt sets, and just generally crush whatever it was that the larger groups found difficult, due to using tactics SE had intended but the average player seems to think is too much work. These players seemingly had gear fall into their laps... mostly because they spent less time fighting, more time winning, and therefor could cover a wider selection of events in a shorter amount of time. So what did SE do?

They gave us Abyssea. They took the poor decision making skills out of the hands of players and LS leaders alike, forced stacked buffs on everybody, and made it so that no matter how many people you threw at a mob your HP and MP would never deplete from all the TP moves being spammed. They put capped accuracy into the hands of people who thought Toreador's was expensive, capped ratio to people who wouldn't use food because they were just going to die, anyways. They gave gear Haste away like candy to those who championed Denali Bonnet and Askar hat. They made STR so high that people who put Dual Wield and Double Attack on their Nuevo Coselete looked like savants.

And now? They want us to go back to the 'old' FFXI? How dare they expect us to make decent parties and play support roles and use buffs and food and not be retards and simpletons! I want my Crystal Chronicles back, damn it!

[Runespider]

Tanaka was producer of FFXIV, if that job gives so little actual imput into the meat of the game why was he made the prime scapegoat and very publicly fired off it? o.O The game sucking was put squarely on his shoulders by everyone, including SE.


Final Fantasy XIV will undergo new leadership, it has been announced.

Hiromichi Tanaka has resigned from his post as producer of the game and will be replaced by Naoki Yoshida with immediate effect, but will remain on staff as an advisor.

Tanaka's departure is one of many sweeping changes announced for the management of the massively-multiplayer game, with staff from projects including Final Fantasy XI, X, IX and Vagrant Story joining the team.

"First of all, I would like to apologise for our inability to fully satisfy our users with the initial release of Final Fantasy XIV," said Tanaka in a statement to players.

"I take full responsibility for the game's current situation, and have therefore made the decision to step down from my role as producer."

[Luvbunny]

While that is one way to look at games... It is silly to think that ffxi should be this way... from the very beginning the game was treated more like a 'world' and was about exploration, adventure, stories, it was meant to be a long road.

If I want a game that feels like a 'game' as you say, I wouldn't be spending money every month for it and I'd go play peggle or chess or something like that.

FXI is a world, that you can explore and there are still missions and quests you can do for story (even abyssea has tons of quests to do) - which by the way the majority of players do not bother to explore or do missions. The difference is that now I can easily explore and go to all corners of the world without having to need others than myself and treat the game as if the offline FF (or Skyrim). There are still tons of challenging contents - most bcnms are still level capped where you need to use food, medicines and know what you are suppose to do - the new bcnm also require some team work. Even low man abyssea still require some quick macros - mob just take forever to die if you attempt to solo (just like old contents). Now everyone has a fair chance to get what they want with a lot less grind time, it is still grindy btw, finishing nyzul, doing the mythic ws, normal ws quest, magian trials - TONS of grindy old content style.

For people who are complaining about abyssea level entrance at 30, cough cough - have you looked at Ground of Valor camps? Yeah, about the same, a bunch of leechers that are afk and a bunch of people naked running around back and forth killing the same mob over and over in express mode. I have no complaints - now everyone can have ALL their jobs at 95 - the only problem is that most do not take the time to take time and learn to play the jobs - which by the way another time sink on itself.

Also crafting, fishing, and HELM are a big timesink as well, it is super casual, everyone can do it, and give you good decent reward - but not all will do it since this is a slow reward and not big ticket ones. Tons of Sea and Sky NM still drop good gears (esp with augmented slots) but now you can easily low man this - not a lot of people do it. I can mention tons of other relevant content that are still semi hard and challenging and require some sort of teamwork, but if it is not NEW shiny shiny gears, most people won't do it. The only difference is that now these older contents are very accessible for all.

[Natasha]

FXI is a world, that you can explore and there are still missions and quests you can do for story (even abyssea has tons of quests to do) - which by the way the majority of players do not bother to explore or do missions. The difference is that now I can easily explore and go to all corners of the world without having to need others than myself and treat the game as if the offline FF (or Skyrim). There are still tons of challenging contents - most bcnms are still level capped where you need to use food, medicines and know what you are suppose to do - the new bcnm also require some team work. Even low man abyssea still require some quick macros - mob just take forever to die if you attempt to solo (just like old contents). Now everyone has a fair chance to get what they want with a lot less grind time, it is still grindy btw, finishing nyzul, doing the mythic ws, normal ws quest, magian trials - TONS of grindy old content style.

For people who are complaining about abyssea level entrance at 30, cough cough - have you looked at Ground of Valor camps? Yeah, about the same, a bunch of leechers that are afk and a bunch of people naked running around back and forth killing the same mob over and over in express mode. I have no complaints - now everyone can have ALL their jobs at 95 - the only problem is that most do not take the time to take time and learn to play the jobs - which by the way another time sink on itself.

Also crafting, fishing, and HELM are a big timesink as well, it is super casual, everyone can do it, and give you good decent reward - but not all will do it since this is a slow reward and not big ticket ones. Tons of Sea and Sky NM still drop good gears (esp with augmented slots) but now you can easily low man this - not a lot of people do it. I can mention tons of other relevant content that are still semi hard and challenging and require some sort of teamwork, but if it is not NEW shiny shiny gears, most people won't do it. The only difference is that now these older contents are very accessible for all.

You can say that but anyone who liked ffxi before abyssea will tell you that the 'feel' of how it was is gone. As you said, now no one bothers doing any of it. Even parties, a core mechanic of the game are all but dead... new low man rules have taken its place.

On further examination of that post, Im confident that you aren't going to get what i mean when I say 'adventure'.

[Winrie]

FFXI Before abyssea = Win
FFXI After abyssea = Lame watered down beer, bud light with a cup of water in it.

I want my game back, all you Abyssea era starting kids can go back to wow

[Luvbunny]

Everyone adventure in their own style, now at least you have options and choices and no longer have to do it the "right way" :) This game is 10 times better than what it was before - more options, more choices, and more fun. And you are entitled to your opinion and how you want to play this game as you see fit for your playstyle and schedule. The old party style is dead but it is not completely gone, the problem is to find 5 other people with xyz job to do it with you. 600-800 xp per kill (and more with Ground of Valor) is nothing to sneeze at, but the majority of people do not bother to add the numbers and rather go afk naked doing absolutely nothing and learning zero about their jobs. Older camps are way much better now with ground tomes and the increased xp and xp rings, but finding like minded people with the same mindset is not easy.... but as usual you can grab 2 of your friends and do even match - tough mobs and do it this way.

[Natasha]

Everyone adventure in their own style, now at least you have options and choices and no longer have to do it the "right way" :) This game is 10 times better than what it was before - more options, more choices, and more fun.

Its actually considerably less choice, its just a transparent issue since technically you 'can' do all that you did in the past... Its just worthless now. Now I sill do the stuff but that doesnt make the point any less valid, why would you throw away all the great things that the game had before 2009 -.-

[Luvbunny]

Its actually considerably less choice, its just a transparent issue since technically you 'can' do all that you did in the past... Its just worthless now. Now I sill do the stuff but that doesnt make the point any less valid, why would you throw away all the great things that the game had before 2009 -.-

All the great things are still there, they never go away but finding people who wants to do it are harder than usual. Yes abyssea pamper most of the new casual players, but it also makes things easier for the hardcore players who want to complete everything in the game. Now you no longer need 18 people to do it and no need to wait in line to get the items you want. Dyna is easier to do, everything is within reach if you want to put the timesink required, they just get rid of the shouting for 17 other people (unless you want to do voidwatch).

Even with godmode - abyssea is still somewhat challenging for casual players, but for hardcore now you can complete your gears, feel good about it, and move on to the harder stuffs but at least you dont need to fight it out with 17 other people and no longer have to wait a year or do the point systems. Remember the old dyna - it's impossible to get your relic gears if you do not attend it regularly and amass points...

[Kimble]

FFXI Before abyssea = Win
FFXI After abyssea = Lame watered down beer, bud light with a cup of water in it.

I want my game back, all you Abyssea era starting kids can go back to wow

Ive honestly met very few people who left wow for FFXI.

[Natasha]

All the great things are still there, they never go away but finding people who wants to do it are harder than usual. Yes abyssea pamper most of the new casual players, but it also makes things easier for the hardcore players who want to complete everything in the game. Now you no longer need 18 people to do it and no need to wait in line to get the items you want. Dyna is easier to do, everything is within reach if you want to put the timesink required, they just get rid of the shouting for 17 other people (unless you want to do voidwatch).

Like I said, can't be explained to someone who didnt like it in the first place. Them being there is one thing, they're infinitely easier... theres no reward to playing anymore... really I would say that the game lost its soul but I dont think that would get what I mean across any better.

[Natasha]

Ive honestly met very few people who left wow for FFXI.

I've known quite a few.

[Kimble]

So, people like grinding to get gear, because it means something, but they don't want to grind for gear in voidwatch?

[Luvbunny]

Like I said, can't be explained to someone who didnt like it in the first place. Them being there is one thing, they're infinitely easier... theres no reward to playing anymore... really I would say that the game lost its soul but I dont think that would get what I mean across any better.

I get what you mean, you want things to "meant something" and that getting it meant you have completed considerable challenge and overcome it. It is definitely a different feeling than just "getting it easily" with minimal effort. Yes the game has evolved since its 2003 NA launch, for you, it may be for the worse, for me, it is for the better. Perhaps you want to tackle Demon Soul and Dark Soul? I know that game will suit your playstyle :)

[Natasha]

So, people like grinding to get gear, because it means something, but they don't want to grind for gear in voidwatch?

I have no problem with voidwatch excepting that i think the system is pretty dumb (not speaking of drops, im talking about the spawn, atmacite, etc.)

[Luvbunny]

So, people like grinding to get gear, because it means something, but they don't want to grind for gear in voidwatch?

OMG, hah hah hah hah hah so very very very very TRUE!! They are now given a "hard challenge" where they have to do it over and over and over and over and over gazillion times till they get the gear (and toss bazillion of junks or same items) and yet the "hardcore" complaint and bitch because they can't get it in one try... Heck tons of other sellable stuffs from voidwatch stil fetch quite pretty gills at auction houses. Magian Trials are still a "challenge" - a super grindfest. Einherjar are still somewhat a challenge as well. Tons of grindfest challenge for old schoolers but yet they still complaint that it is not the way it was, funny...

[Natasha]

OMG, hah hah hah hah hah so very very very very TRUE!! They are now given a "hard challenge" where they have to do it over and over and over and over and over gazillion times till they get the gear (and toss bazillion of junks or same items) and yet the "hardcore" complaint and bitch because they can't get it in one try... Heck tons of other sellable stuffs from voidwatch stil fetch quite pretty gills at auction houses. Magian Trials are still a "challenge" - a super grindfest. Einherjar are still somewhat a challenge as well. Tons of grindfest challenge for old schoolers but yet they still complaint that it is not the way it was, funny...

Voidwatch is not that hard. So I assume the people who complain about it are not the same people or they have some specific complaint about how the system works.

[Natasha]

out of curiosity what is your favorite zone in the game?

[Olor]

FFXI's population was in decline before Abyssea was released, not saying Abyssea didn't eventually compound the problem.

I only came back because of Abyssea and I know a lot of people in the same boat. The idea of spending a year to get to level 50 didn't appeal to me (still doesn't) - and hearing the devs say Abyssea is/was a mistake makes me think the game is going to go in the opposite direction to what I want in a game, which is sad.

[Luvbunny]

I have no problem with voidwatch excepting that i think the system is pretty dumb (not speaking of drops, im talking about the spawn, atmacite, etc.)

Voidwatch is not dumb, stagger means you cannot zerg, some mobs you have to space out the stagger or they will own you. Stagger means a lot of different jobs are needed, and Paladin is a must have and many other non abyssea jobs. Spawn is great, you no longer have to WAIT for hours and try to claim. Atmacite is just the right amount of boost, not AWESOME like abyssea but a little help is better than none. Temp items is great, if you know how to use them, you up the chance of winning. The droprate is suck, but hey, you asked for old school style, where the drop rate is, notoriously SUCKS and you have to kill it many many many times. But at least no one is going to outlot you now, even if you get 11 Fajin boots - which I have yet gotten, instead I been getting all these damn logs...

[Olor]

Voidwatch is not that hard.

It's not hard at all. People don't hate VW because it is hard, they hate it because they would rather play the game than spend 3 hours gathering people for a 5 minute fight.

And of course the ludicrous drop system doesn't help either.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/zellbaca/logfantasy.png

[Natasha]

Voidwatch is not dumb, stagger means you cannot zerg, some mobs you have to space out the stagger or they will own you. Stagger means a lot of different jobs are needed, and Paladin is a must have and many other non abyssea jobs. Spawn is great, you no longer have to WAIT for hours and try to claim. Atmacite is just the right amount of boost, not AWESOME like abyssea but a little help is better than none. Temp items is great, if you know how to use them, you up the chance of winning. The droprate is suck, but hey, you asked for old school style, where the drop rate is, notoriously SUCKS and you have to kill it many many many times. But at least no one is going to outlot you now, even if you get 11 Fajin boots - which I have yet gotten, instead I been getting all these damn logs...

It's a stupid system, it might as well be all done through bcnms if you just run somewhere to pop something.

And no, im not complaining about having to go somewhere... Im saying that the system is redundant in that theres no other reason to go to any of these places. The stagger system sucks too but im not going to bother explaining that one to you.

[Luvbunny]

out of curiosity what is your favorite zone in the game?

Zi'Tah and Boyahda because it is green (and not red...with red sky) and hardly no one is there. Discovering new ground tomes that most japanese players exploit, hellooooo zeruhm mines!! Walk of Echoes cuz I can just go do it and afk for 8 mnts. Most of the ToAU zones cuz of Nyzul and Assaults. Some areas in WoTG cuz I have to do the missions - and have to wait for other people to do the missions.... The second abyssea expansion is not too bad since many areas are green, not attowha though.

[cidbahamut]

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/zellbaca/logfantasy.png

This needs its own thread.

[Natasha]

Zi'Tah and Boyahda because it is green (and not red...with red sky) and hardly no one is there. Discovering new ground tomes that most japanese players exploit, hellooooo zeruhm mines!! Walk of Echoes cuz I can just go do it and afk for 8 mnts. Most of the ToAU zones cuz of Nyzul and Assaults. Some areas in WoTG cuz I have to do the missions - and have to wait for other people to do the missions.... The second abyssea expansion is not too bad since many areas are green, not attowha though.

Zone, singular.. I want to know which zone you like most of all (at least the top 3)

[Natasha]

It's not hard at all. People don't hate VW because it is hard, they hate it because they would rather play the game than spend 3 hours gathering people for a 5 minute fight.

And of course the ludicrous drop system doesn't help either.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j72/zellbaca/logfantasy.png

Thats exactly the point i was making -.- ... That if people were complaining it was hard then they werent people who were wanting old ffxi back.

[Luvbunny]

It's a stupid system, it might as well be all done through bcnms if you just run somewhere to pop something.

And no, im not complaining about having to go somewhere... Im saying that the system is redundant in that theres no other reason to go to any of these places. The stagger system sucks too but im not going to bother explaining that one to you.

It is pretty great actually, you are forced to go places, and you have to do some legwork in WoTG areas and use the maws. The direct teleport is beyond awesome, now you can just port to gusgen mines, crawler nest and boyahda direct with no walking!! The NMs need some teamwork or they will own you, and none of the zerg strategy will work for all the mobs, people actually have to level other VIP jobs to be more versatile and follow direction to when to engage and when to not engage. Mages have to work together to share the stagger systems and not blindly spam spells, Sch actually matters, and whms have to work extra hard to keep the tank alive - not to mention PLD can shine where mobs murder the ninjas and the monks.

[Natasha]

It is pretty great actually, you are forced to go places, and you have to do some legwork in WoTG areas and use the maws. The direct teleport is beyond awesome, now you can just port to gusgen mines, crawler nest and boyahda direct with no walking!! The NMs need some teamwork or they will own you, and none of the zerg strategy will work for all the mobs, people actually have to level other VIP jobs to be more versatile and follow direction to when to engage and when to not engage. Mages have to work together to share the stagger systems and not blindly spam spells, Sch actually matters, and whms have to work extra hard to keep the tank alive - not to mention PLD can shine where mobs murder the ninjas and the monks.

Direct teleport is even worse.

[Luvbunny]

Zone, singular.. I want to know which zone you like most of all (at least the top 3)

Boyahda, and Zi'tah (mainly for the relaxing zen music). But I like a lot of zones, there are plenty of unused zones in the game though - if it not for magian trials most people won't bother going to explore. Ground tomes are great addition, at least when you skill ups and do things in these dungeons, you feel like you are getting something extra.

[Natasha]

Boyahda, and Zi'tah (mainly for the relaxing zen music). But I like a lot of zones, there are plenty of unused zones in the game though - if it not for magian trials most people won't bother going to explore. Ground tomes are great addition, at least when you skill ups and do things in these dungeons, you feel like you are getting something extra.

Lol you must be like anti-me... I hate grounds tomes (indirectly) since the update they came with gave way to book burns.

[Kimble]

Whats so bad about direct teleporting?

And what is wrong with book burning? lol

[Luvbunny]

Direct teleport is even worse.

This is one of the best thing ever happened in the game, no more useless timesink travel time. It is great the first time you go explore, but not for the 100th time you have to do it. Direct port to the zone where bcnms are (not the bcnm itself) would be great, then I can easily find more people to do this since it cut down the 10-15 mnts time spent to reach the bcnms. You want instant fun, not needless time sink over and over and over. All those waystone earrings are beyond awesome, you can warp direct to Nashmau to do Einherjar instead of having to wait 10-30 mnts for people to gather.

[Natasha]

Whats so bad about direct teleporting?

Please don't make me get into that >.> ... I hate having to stand up for what I believe because it takes forever lol ... as you can see im willing to do it anyway and its cutting into study time.

I think all my reasons were covered in the 'teleport to bcnms' thread that had been on the hot topics for a while.

[Natasha]

This is one of the best thing ever happened in the game, no more useless timesink travel time. It is great the first time you go explore, but not for the 100th time you have to do it. Direct port to the zone where bcnms are (not the bcnm itself) would be great, then I can easily find more people to do this since it cut down the 10-15 mnts time spent to reach the bcnms. You want instant fun, not needless time sink over and over and over. All those waystone earrings are beyond awesome, you can warp direct to Nashmau to do Einherjar instead of having to wait 10-30 mnts for people to gather.

This is EXACTLY the problem with casuals (i view myself as casual just so you know) travel is not a timesink -.- ... what good adventure had no travel in it?

[Kimble]

Ah well, sorry, not going to dig through another thread just to find you reasoning, lol.

I travel the same path to work every day. Doesn't make it an adventure.

[Luvbunny]

Thats exactly the point i was making -.- ... That if people were complaining it was hard then they werent people who were wanting old ffxi back.

The old ways are about gathering people for hours... and asking if they have xyz jobs, and camping the sky and fight it out with RMT people to get claim, and have 5-7 things dropped that are either not what you want, or good luck getting a claim cuz some of the VIP members of LS have the claim and you are just warm body to help them get what they want.

[Natasha]

Ah well, sorry, not going to dig through another thread just to find you reasoning, lol.

I travel the same path to work every day. Doesn't make it an adventure.

Why even have areas then, if theres no reason to travel through them.

[Natasha]

The old ways are about gathering people for hours... and asking if they have xyz jobs, and camping the sky and fight it out with RMT people to get claim, and have 5-7 things dropped that are either not what you want, or good luck getting a claim cuz some of the VIP members of LS have the claim and you are just warm body to help them get what they want.

You never had to do endgame, if you did you were expected to make some kind of investment in it. <- this makes sense

Now, everyone does it cause thats all there is <- this does not make sense.

[Luvbunny]

This is EXACTLY the problem with casuals (i view myself as casual just so you know) travel is not a timesink -.- ... what good adventure had no travel in it?

Travel is fine, you have to travel inside abyssea (very minimal) - you have to travel to get to VW pop (very minimal) - but traveling for more than 10-20 mnts to reach a zone IS NOT OK. The first five times you may like it, but not for the 10th-20th time you keep having to do this. Things that should take a 60-90 mnts can easily stretch into a 3-4 hours deal because half the people did not do their homework and everyone have to wait around for them to get there. This is not OK - it's rude to make other people wait for you, especially if they are there to help you get your stuffs done :) Obviously this is not about you, heh heh heh.

[saevel]

Ok this is getting annoying now. Stop with trying to romanticize "old FFXI", your deluding yourselves.

You people argue and complain about abyssea making "XP" easy ... and yet yearn for "old style" Xp parties. Yet you fail to mention those parties were RDM BRD BRD WAR SAM MNK, and NOTHING ELSE. Your wanting to level SMN, BST, PUP, BLM, or a myriad of other jobs, better have a friend who's RDM or BRD and hope they insist you be allowed into the party. "Old style" XP was just people holding their party hostage to get their friends in.

"Old style" content boiled down to two things, one being waiting 3~4 hours in Dragons Aery to attempt to outclaim all the bots for a 21~24hr spawn NM. Second having to making a schedule to attend an event with 17~20+ other people where the leaders would tally points and control gear distribution. If you didn't' give the LS leaders wet oral encouragement then you'd be near the bottom of the list for getting your stuff done, maybe never being allowed to get your drop.

THAT was FFXI, if you didn't fall into those two groups then you were stuck with absolutely nothing to do. Assault / Nyzule Isle gear sucked, there was better available on the AH for the most part. There was NO strategy, no SC / MB, no mysterious magic that made the game "better". It was a bunch of LS leaders herding cats and telling you what to do. They could carbon copy whatever "winning" strategy was present on BG to maximize gear acquisition for the leaders and their chosen few. Ultimately this always boiled down to a melee zerg. No strategy involved, just the simplest / fastest method for obtaining gear.

Abyssea introduced super hard NMs, but also super powerful buffs. Anyone and I mean ANYONE complaining about this, just go do Abyssea without crour buffs or atma, there your problem is now solved. The only reason abyssea seems "easy" is that players found the best combinations of atma possible. Remove Apoc / RR and suddenly it seems much much harder. And ultimately, Abyssea NM's weren't any harder / easier then pre-abyssea NM's once players found a strategy. Omega, Ultima, Hydra, Khimera, and Kirin were all "easy" once we figured them out. DL was FARMED for drops, just throw CSS and he's a joke. It may take longer, so a 30min fight vs a 5~10 min, but length of fight does not dictate difficulty.

The real difference between abyssea / pre-abyssea / post-abyssea is that you could control your gear acquisition rate. Abyssea had a steady method to acquire your +1/+2 armor and emp weapon. For 8 seals you would have to fight a guy 3~6 times, so you could say the +1 armor had a 15~25% "drop" rate. For 6 coins you would have to fight a NM 2~4 times (if it was the guaranteed drop) so again same 25% "drop" rate. Armor was a bit harder due to 10/9 but was still obtainable with friends. Which is the whole point, if I'm helping a friend get his +2 armor, there will be other drops that myself and everyone else could lot on. Something for everyone and all that jazz.

THAT is what abyssea was about, helping each other acquire better gear without having to give oral encouragement to linkshell leaders. You could still do it with a LS and you would acquire a crap ton of gear, I know I did, but you could also opt to just go do those NM's with a few friends. The choice of gear acquisition was in your hands.

[Natasha]

Travel is fine, you have to travel inside abyssea (very minimal) - you have to travel to get to VW pop (very minimal) - but traveling for more than 10-20 mnts to reach a zone IS NOT OK. The first five times you may like it, but not for the 10th-20th time you keep having to do this. Things that should take a 60-90 mnts can easily stretch into a 3-4 hours deal because half the people did not do their homework and everyone have to wait around for them to get there. This is not OK - it's rude to make other people wait for you, especially if they are there to help you get your stuffs done :) Obviously this is not about you, heh heh heh.

The amount of travel in ffxi before abyssea was perfectly acceptable, long enough to make people be serious but not long enough to make you not want to go somewhere.

[Luvbunny]

You never had to do endgame, if you did you were expected to make some kind of investment in it. <- this makes sense

Now, everyone does it cause thats all there is <- this does not make sense.

This is a GAME, not work, not stock market, no one should do "investment" of any kind other than to log in, go play and have fun, repeat infinitum over and over. Yes in a way, any gaming experience is just another way of wasting our free time, hence it should not feel like work where you have to invest. When I log out of the game, everything about the game means absolutely nothing to me.

[Kimble]

I'm sorry but the most annoying thing about old FFXI was sitting around and waiting for everyone else to get there to get started. hell that is still the most annoying thing.

"hey guys, event starts at 5!"

/gets to the event right at 5.

/other people wait till 5 to start to move to the area.

/is now 6 and event is finally starting.

Yeah, that was REAL fun.

[Natasha]

This is a GAME, not work, not stock market, no one should do "investment" of any kind other than to log in, go play and have fun, repeat infinitum over and over. Yes in a way, any gaming experience is just another way of wasting our free time, hence it should not feel like work where you have to invest. When I log out of the game, everything about the game means absolutely nothing to me.

Already explained what I think about your game theory.

[Luvbunny]

Saevel, thank you for saying it like it is. Your post summed it up quite nicely. The old ways are retarded, stupid, and just plain suck. Long live abyssea!! Voidwatch is not perfect but at least those crap and logs are all mine and I can blame my luck for not getting the gears or for getting it the 10th time.

[Luvbunny]

Already explained what I think about your game theory.

Yes, I play for fun, and you play to find some "meaning and accomplishment overcoming great challenge" :) To each of their own I suppose, and now FFXI is giving both of us different ways to enjoy the game.

[Natasha]

I'm sorry but the most annoying thing about old FFXI was sitting around and waiting for everyone else to get there to get started. hell that is still the most annoying thing.

"hey guys, event starts at 5!"

/gets to the event right at 5.

/other people wait till 5 to start to move to the area.

/is now 6 and event is finally starting.

Yeah, that was REAL fun.

Not every second should be volatile fun, its not like this game was made so that every second will get adrenaline flowing. Part of the game is communication, and part is strategy~ Waiting is inevitable in any online game, dont expect it all to be action.

[Kimble]

If an event is suppose to start at a certain time, I expect it to start at that time. Is that really to much to ask for? lol

[Natasha]

Yes, I play for fun, and you play to find some "meaning and accomplishment overcoming great challenge" :) To each of their own I suppose, and now FFXI is giving both of us different ways to enjoy the game.

I don't get anything from ffxi anymore cept maybe nostalgia... still enjoy it but if i hadnt have played it before abyssea and started after, I wouldnt be playing today.

[Natasha]

If an event is suppose to start at a certain time, I expect it to start at that time. Is that really to much to ask for? lol

Thats a people problem, not a game mechanic problem.

[Kimble]

Thats a people problem, not a game mechanic problem.

And direct teleporting helps alleviate that problem.

[Natasha]

And direct teleporting helps alleviate that problem.

An unnecessary and detracting fix.

[Kimble]

So you're perfectly fine waiting around and not doing anything for an hour while everyone else gets there even though you were on time?

[Luvbunny]

And direct teleporting helps alleviate that problem.

Yup anything to cut down meaningless nonsensical stupid time sink is greatly appreciate it in this game. When event is posted at a certain time, you expect most people to come on time, or at least the game helps alleviate the travel time needed to get there. Most "online" games nowadays are about fun and enjoyment, but a few odd games like Dark Souls and Demon Souls still give the old school players a hard and challenging game where dying over and over to overcome obstacles and hard challenge until you figure it out is deemed rewarding.

[Natasha]

So you're perfectly fine waiting around and not doing anything for an hour while everyone else gets there even though you were on time?

If it takes that long i wont go with the people who take that long again.

[Kimble]

You are very dense, lol.

[Natasha]

Yup anything to cut down meaningless nonsensical stupid time sink is greatly appreciate it in this game. When event is posted at a certain time, you expect most people to come on time, or at least the game helps alleviate the travel time needed to get there. Most "online" games nowadays are about fun and enjoyment, but a few odd games like Dark Souls and Demon Souls still give the old school players a hard and challenging game where dying over and over to overcome obstacles and hard challenge until you figure it out is deemed rewarding.

Again, not a time sync.

[Natasha]

You are very dense, lol.

I would say the same of you.

[Luvbunny]

I don't get anything from ffxi anymore cept maybe nostalgia... still enjoy it but if i hadnt have played it before abyssea and started after, I wouldnt be playing today.

I have been playing since 2003 - I just shun out the endgame stuffs after seeing how much of a waste that is - plus I rather not try to "sweet talk" LS leaders to get my gears. It is a game, if I have to do this type of "social politics" I rather do it to advance my career, not for gaming - which is a waste of time. Hence abyssea is great, no more politics and BS, just grab a few friends, log in, and have fun. It renders big LS totally not needed and destroy that sense of accomplishment, not to mention deflate egos of a lot of LS leaders since they matter not, now everyone and 2 other people can get their gears and never have to "kiss ass" to get some helps or advance their "gaming career".

[Kimble]

Hate to use a real life example but.

You would rather walk every where then take a car?

[Luvbunny]

If it takes that long i wont go with the people who take that long again.

Unfortunately, unless you have control of 17 other peoples, you are completely dependent on them (for voidwatch anyway). The old school forced you to depend to other people, and sometimes that means having to tolerate some minor quirks and "know your place" to avoid dramas. The new ways let you just go at it with 2-3 other people, which is more easier to do unless you are a social pariah in the game. It gives you option of solo-duo (more time) or go with smaller group (faster and more efficient) or bigger group (safer but more prone to dramas).

[Natasha]

I have been playing since 2003 - I just shun out the endgame stuffs after seeing how much of a waste that is - plus I rather not try to "sweet talk" LS leaders to get my gears. It is a game, if I have to do this type of "social politics" I rather do it to advance my career, not for gaming - which is a waste of time. Hence abyssea is great, no more politics and BS, just grab a few friends, log in, and have fun. It renders big LS totally not needed and destroy that sense of accomplishment, not to mention deflate egos of a lot of LS leaders since they matter not, now everyone and 2 other people can get their gears and never have to "kiss ass" to get some helps or advance their "gaming career".

Then it was the wrong game for you as thats what it was made to be. At some point people need to understand that some things are meant to be one way and other things are meant to be another. If ffxi maintains its 'new' mentality I'll need to accept that its not my type of game anymore. But the fact that people that HATE games like ffxi used to be, come into the game, and try to make it something else is ridiculous.

[Natasha]

Hate to use a real life example but.

You would rather walk every where then take a car?

car is still travel, use a chocobo.

[Natasha]

Unfortunately, unless you have control of 17 other peoples, you are completely dependent on them (for voidwatch anyway). The old school forced you to depend to other people, and sometimes that means having to tolerate some minor quirks and "know your place" to avoid dramas. The new ways let you just go at it with 2-3 other people, which is more easier to do unless you are a social pariah in the game. It gives you option of solo-duo (more time) or go with smaller group (faster and more efficient) or bigger group (safer but more prone to dramas).

Yes, and thats what separated good leaders from bad ones. You get a group together and keep people who refuse to act reasonably (reasonable being key, not suggesting elitism) out of the group.

[Kimble]

Nah, that would be cheating because you wouldn't be taking in the adventure and enjoying it.

[Natasha]

Nah, that would be cheating because you wouldn't be taking in the adventure and enjoying it.

Same adventure acutally, I observed many things from chocoback.

[Luvbunny]

Then it was the wrong game for you as thats what it was made to be. At some point people need to understand that some things are meant to be one way and other things are meant to be another. If ffxi maintains its 'new' mentality I'll need to accept that its not my type of game anymore. But the fact that people that HATE games like ffxi used to be, come into the game, and try to make it something else is ridiculous.

Sadly this game probably not for you anymore, I have no control over what the developers will do lol. I think the developers just responded to what the general paying consumer wants, and made abyssea, which sold quite well, and it seems now they run out of ideas on how to make another blockbuster add ons. I am glad the game evolved for the better, and the developers (to some degree) willing to let go of the past and move forward to the future. Even if it means render the old content to be less of a challenge (and timesink) and make the game more accessible to a lot of players (which pose a problem of a lot of less skilled players). You can't always get everything, but I am happy with the compromise - FFXI is not quite WoW but at least have some quality of what made WoW more accessible and fun.

But they did open a big can of worm with Abyssea - now every single future add ons will be compared to Abyssea and if it does not live up to the same quality, people will not respond kindly. At the same time, it is good that Abyssea exists, it forces the developers to actually put some effort and "invest" in creating a better or on quality content if they want to keep paying customers happy. Maybe cut down the money pour into the trash that is FF14 and spend it more on 11? They now have no way of going back and have to move forward into the future - where fun, easy, accessible games rules (notice the rise of casual gaming on iphone and facebook). The problem is how to balance the casual and hardcore contents - but this is why we pay them monthly fees - SE needs to actually do some work and keep us happy and not completely ignoring customer's feedbacks.

[Kimble]

Same adventure acutally, I observed many things from chocoback.

Is it just as exciting and fulfilling the 10,000th time?

[Natasha]

Sadly this game probably not for you anymore, I have no control over what the developers will do lol. I think the developers just responded to what the general paying consumer wants, and made abyssea, which sold quite well, and it seems now they run out of ideas on how to make another blockbuster add ons. I am glad the game evolved for the better, and the developers (to some degree) willing to let go of the past and move forward to the future. Even if it means render the old content to be less of a challenge (and timesink) and make the game more accessible to a lot of players (which pose a problem of a lot of less skilled players). You can't always get everything, but I am happy with the compromise - FFXI is not quite WoW but at least have some quality of what made WoW more accessible and fun.

Except that this thread is about the developers feeling abyssea was a mistake.

[Natasha]

Is it just as exciting and fulfilling the 10,000th time?

Do you have any idea how many times i've taken the mana clipper?

[Insaniac]

So you honestly think the Producer creates the game, designs it, etc?

I think a lot of people really don't understand what a producer does.

He basically just makes sure shit is done on time and that people are on task and is a middle man better the game developers in the higher ups who pay to have the game made.

You can be in charge of people with out having hands on experience with what they are doing.
Holy crap. I didn't say that either. WTF is wrong with you?

[Kimble]

Do you have any idea how many times i've taken the mana clipper?

Well, in the end its simple then.

No one is stopping you from traveling the way you wish. Doesn't mean you should force your way on to others.

[Natasha]

Well, in the end its simple then.

No one is stopping you from traveling the way you wish. Doesn't mean you should force your way on to others.

Thats the way the game was MADE. Is OTHERS who forced THEIR way on the game.

[HimuraKenshyn]

Well I think the developers are fing out of touch if they want this game to continue with that balance BS. Going back to the way things use to be would be placing the nails back in the coffin but hell its been a great run. They figured out how to give the game life again and now that XIV is finally playable lets just kill ffxi off for good that's what's gonna happen going back to the old endless grind...

[Luvbunny]

Except that this thread is about the developers feeling abyssea was a mistake.

Yes, paying customers like me feel that Abyssea is not a mistake - it is the best thing that ever happened in the game, it is forward thinking, fun, enjoyable, accessible and worth every cent and time I put on in the game. I am looking forward for future content and hoping they can look back at Abyssea which is a great success (maybe not for developer) and learn a thing or two that can be implemented in future add ons. As a company you want to create blockbuster content that the majority of players want, even if it is at the expense of loosing what make the game unique (and harder and not as marketable) in the first place. Give customers what they want, sell a lot of add ons, make money and have big success so that the game is sustainable and they will keep making contents for years to come.

I am hoping Camate can forward this thread to the developers. They need to create more blockbuster contents that pleases the majority, even if it means watered down and easy as long as the fun factor is there. I just wish they can use the money to update and upgrade this game and not spend it for trash project like FF14.

[Kimble]

Thats the way the game was MADE. Is OTHERS who forced THEIR way on the game.

Who is stopping you from traveling by foot and/or chocobo? lol

[Natasha]

Who is stopping you from traveling by foot and/or chocobo? lol

Never said i couldn't just said that its a bad idea and goes against what the game was made to be.

[Kimble]

Never said i couldn't just said that its a bad idea and goes against what the game was made to be.

Maybe by your standards. Sadly, you can't force your standards on others. sorry.

[Natasha]

Yes, paying customers like me feel that Abyssea is not a mistake - it is the best thing that ever happened in the game, it is forward thinking, fun, enjoyable, accessible and worth every cent and time I put on in the game. I am looking forward for future content and hoping they can look back at Abyssea which is a great success (maybe not for developer) and learn a thing or two that can be implemented in future add ons. As a company you want to create blockbuster content that the majority of players want, even if it is at the expense of loosing what make the game unique (and harder and not as marketable) in the first place. Give customers what they want, sell a lot of add ons, make money and have big success so that the game is sustainable and they will keep making contents for years to come.

I am hoping Camate can forward this thread to the developers. They need to create more blockbuster contents that pleases the majority, even if it means watered down and easy as long as the fun factor is there. I just wish they can use the money to update and upgrade this game and not spend it for trash project like FF14.

FFXI was always and will always be a niche game... no matter how casual friendly it gets. These changes wont do much if anything to increase the staying power of 11.

[Natasha]

Maybe by your standards. Sadly, you can't force your standards on others. sorry.

Already explained the problem with that statement. It was the others who brought about the change in the first place so if they can do it ? Not saying I can but your logic is flawed.

[Luvbunny]

Never said i couldn't just said that its a bad idea and goes against what the game was made to be.

There are a lot of things that changed from what the game was made to be, because the players responded and reacted and tell the developers this is how they want it to be - like Ninja tank and how awesome Rdm used to be (which resulted in Rdm getting crap in the years after that). It is online "social" game that evolves because of the players participation - which dictates what the developers will do next (if they are smart that is). Just because you make the game, does not mean players have to take it as it is, unless it is offline game like FF13 (which got a lot of negative reaction for its linearity). If they want to keep paying subscribers, they have to react fast and evolve fast (which they did with forums and test servers) - move forward to the future and leave the past behind (no need to reminiscence how great the way things used to be - they are gone because the majority do not want them).

If they feel direct port is not what people want, you will not see it implemented in Sky, Sea, Outpost tele, ToAU, WoTG, Abyssea and Voidwatch. People WANT this and DEMAND this - hence they responded and gave us this. Atma and proc are popular, so they implement this on new dyna and voidwatch. To some extend the developer has no choice but to give us what we want, after all we are paying their bills.

[Kimble]

Already explained the problem with that statement. It was the others who brought about the change in the first place so if they can do it ? Not saying I can but your logic is flawed.

Who are others? The people that create the game? They can do whatever they feel like doing.

[HimuraKenshyn]

How many worlds have been shutdown? If that's not the biggest clue to the fact the game needed the changes they made and so many players came back if they go back to the old ways basically the end is in sight and the subtle push to 14 will be completed. Looks like the only way to make 14 a success is make 11 unplayable again for most lol....

[Natasha]

There are a lot of things that changed from what the game was made to be, because the players responded and reacted and tell the developers this is how they want it to be - like Ninja tank and how awesome Rdm used to be (which resulted in Rdm getting crap in the years after that). It is online "social" game that evolves because of the players participation - which dictates what the developers will do next (if they are smart that is). Just because you make the game, does not mean players have to take it as it is, unless it is offline game like FF13 (which got a lot of negative reaction for its linearity). If they want to keep paying subscribers, they have to react fast and evolve fast (which they did with forums and test servers) - move forward to the future and leave the past behind (no need to reminiscence how great the way things used to be - they are gone because the majority do not want them).

People loved it as it was, FFxi was very highly regarded despite its smaller player base before ffxi and was the 2nd highest income subscription based mmo for a number of years up to abyssea, which didnt change that. (right under wow).

[Natasha]

Who are others? The people that create the game? They can do whatever they feel like doing.

The others would be people like you who like to complain that they have better things to do than waste time in a game. Which logically should suggest to them that they shouldnt be playing games in the first place then.

[Natasha]

How many worlds have been shutdown? If that's not the biggest clue to the fact the game needed the changes they made and so many players came back if they go back to the old ways basically the end is in sight and the subtle push to 14 will be completed. Looks like the only way to make 14 a success is make 11 unplayable again for most lol....

Take a look, worlds were shut down after abyssea... people came back to see what was changed and they didnt like it which lead them to quit again. Many of the players who quit before abyssea did so to start up on ffxiv and simply didnt return even with the unhappy events around that.

[Kimble]

Um.. im pretty sure FFXI wasn't the 2nd highest.

Nothing says fun like standing around and doing nothing right?

Honestly, you are the only person ive ever met that has a problem with faster means of travel.

[Luvbunny]

How many worlds have been shutdown? If that's not the biggest clue to the fact the game needed the changes they made and so many players came back if they go back to the old ways basically the end is in sight and the subtle push to 14 will be completed. Looks like the only way to make 14 a success is make 11 unplayable again for most lol....

Let's hope it won't come to this. Though you can see a massive difference in the attitude from FF14 developer (Yoshi) and the FF11 (Tanaka now - again...). Do I wish that Yoshi is back and in charge of FF11? YES YES YES and many times YES!! This is a guy who understand what the consumers wants and have a good read of the new things and what works, and actually rather prompt in delivering BIG results and SUCCESS!! No wonder he is now put in charge to fix the mess that Tanaka did with FF14 - I would do the same if I were SE. If you read Yoshi regular newsletter, you feel a connection and confident in his abilities, a HUGE difference from the bits of interview from FFXI. It's like the team lead by Tanaka (again) now felt threatened by the success of Abyssea and trying to backtrack and dismiss it as failure and how unhappy they are. What a crap of BS!! Office politics more like it.

[Natasha]

Um.. im pretty sure FFXI wasn't the 2nd highest.

Nothing says fun like standing around and doing nothing right?

Honestly, you are the only person ive ever met that has a problem with faster means of travel.

It was, I haven't seen the report since 2008 but if abyssea boosted numbers like you said it did then theres little reason for it to have changed.

[Kimble]

Take a look, worlds were shut down after abyssea... people came back to see what was changed and they didnt like it which lead them to quit again. Many of the players who quit before abyssea did so to start up on ffxiv and simply didnt return even with the unhappy events around that.

A lot of people slowly started to quit FFXI around 2007-2008 when WOTG came out because WOTG added hardly any new end game content. The game got very stagnate and stale.

[Kimble]

It was, I haven't seen the report since 2008 but if abyssea boosted numbers like you said it did then theres little reason for it to have changed.

Where did I say it boosted numbers? lol

Also.

http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/35992.aspx

[Neisan_Quetz]

FFXI was never second anything. Maybe if you completely ignored korean MMOs FFXI came in the Top 4 for awhile.

[Natasha]

Where did I say it boosted numbers? lol

Sorry, wasnt speaking of you personally.. Im talking aobut those supporting abyssea, I see alot of 'it brought more people into the game'.

Edit: and like i said, last time i saw it, it was in 2008

[Luvbunny]

People loved it as it was, FFxi was very highly regarded despite its smaller player base before ffxi and was the 2nd highest income subscription based mmo for a number of years up to abyssea, which didnt change that. (right under wow).

I never met these so called people, all the people I know of love abyssea and very happy with the way the game is now. But then again there are many types of players in this game. Some like you, wished to the old days, the others 90% like the way things are and very very happy. Otherwise no one will bother doing dominion and instead they will make old school 6 man party, heck with exp increase and auto repeat from the book, old school party is beyond awesome - yet no one in their right mind, even bother to do it at all - which surprise me since the xp is really good.

[Natasha]

FFXI was never second anything. Maybe if you completely ignored korean MMOs FFXI came in the Top 4 for awhile.

No it was second, there were some korean mmos doing better but they were non-subscriber mmos.

[Kimble]

Sorry, wasnt speaking of you personally.. Im talking aobut those supporting abyssea, I see alot of 'it brought more people into the game'.

Edit: and like i said, last time i saw it, it was in 2008

It didnt bring MORE people into the game, it just brought people back who quit between 2008-2010. I'm better sure FFXI has been hovering around 500k users since 2007ish.

[Natasha]

I never met these so called people, all the people I know of love abyssea and very happy with the way the game is now. But then again there are many types of players in this game. Some like you, wished to the old days, the others 90% like the way things are and very very happy. Otherwise no one will bother doing dominion and instead they will make old school 6 man party, heck with exp increase and auto repeat from the book, old school party is beyond awesome - yet no one in their right mind, even bother to do it at all - which surprise me since the xp is really good.

really? then who was playing the game before 2009? People who hated it? right~

[Kimble]

No it was second, there were some korean mmos doing better but they were non-subscriber mmos.

And at this point, im going to say the burden of proof is on you to back your claims up.

[Molech]

Take a look, worlds were shut down after abyssea... people came back to see what was changed and they didnt like it which lead them to quit again. Many of the players who quit before abyssea did so to start up on ffxiv and simply didnt return even with the unhappy events around that.


I came back when several friends talked up Abyssea to me, they told me it was the best time to get back into FFXI and that starting over from scratch was about a months affair as opposed to the years affair as it used to be. When I got back and jumped into Abyssea as a player who was as hardcore as they came back in the day that spent up to 9hrs a day camping kings + had a mule watching Tiamat when her window opened I loved what they did with Abyssea.

I started FFXI as a 22 year old, now 30, I loved the fact that I could just log on and get into something that wasent serious or required a lot of investment and the loot was mindblowing compared to all the HNM gear I used to have. As the transition from Abyssea to Voidwatch began, I wanted no part in it, it felt like I been there and done that and dealt with the lowdrop rate mess years ago that was Salvage, Dynamis, Kings and so on, I instantly just lost the will to play because the game was starting to go back into that lowdrop rate mess again.

I was a player who had just about all endgame gear back at 75, I only came back because the game had changed from a mindnumbing grind to being able to jump into abyssea for two hrs a night and make progress. Voidwatch seems to bring me back to the days of slamming your head against a brickwall trying to get drops.

[Natasha]

It didnt bring MORE people into the game, it just brought people back who quit between 2008-2010. I'm better sure FFXI has been hovering around 500k users since 2007ish.

"Square Enix announced that the total number of active characters exceeded 2 million for the first time" granted some of those had to be mules and alts but i highly doubt the ratio of normal characters to mules alts is 1 : 3

[Kimble]

Care to cite your source? That means nothing to me, lol.

[Natasha]

Care to cite your source? That means nothing to me, lol.

Its taken from an official statement.

[Kimble]

Its taken from an official statement.

Ok, and can you link this official statement? What year it took place?

[Natasha]

Ok, and can you link this official statement? What year it took place?

The official statement is gone, but if you did a simple google search its listed on almost every single ffxi fan site there is.

It was in 2009.

this link : http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=17723 has a reference to Playonline which is where it WAS found.

[Kimble]

According to that, it says characters, not accounts.

[Natasha]

According to that, it says characters, not accounts.

Yes, read the first post i quoted.

[Meyi]

I don't care if Square Enix caters to the people who are seeking challenge and have more time on their hands. The only problem is, it seems Square Enix can only cater to one or the other; casual, or hardcore. Why can't we have events for both?

I really don't mind if my friends get to fight super huge, cool dragons and upon slaying them, get this miraculous, powerful armor that they can flaunt to everyone around them. I'm happy for them, and I'm glad they can enjoy that part of the game. However, I've never enjoyed it, the few times I tried to join end game linkshells I was so depressed I wanted to just quit the game all together, and I refuse to get back into such a style of play. What I'd like to see, is, an extremely painful slow pace option that may even take a year or two of decent gameplay to accomplish the same goals. I'd like to have a chance at making my character the best without the headache and depression that comes with end game shells.

The gear can be uglier for the casual route for all I care. Make it a thousand deaths to each monster family. I just want something I can manage too. Abyssea gave me a spark of happiness and hope because it let me pursue the best gear that was available.

[Luvbunny]

This negative interviews will be recalled or "corrected" soon, you will see. When people see bad news and hate it, they will tell 10-20 other people and influence their opinions. When people see good news and love it, they may tell it to 3-5 people. This news is a really bad PR for FFXI and slap in the face for the developers - their PR depts, if they have any, will have to correct this mess and respond quickly before it gets out of hand. I think someone there should put a restraining jacket on Tanaka and his teams - which never been known for their savviness when it comes to crafting a good soundbites. You can go read statement by Yoshi on FF14 and you will see a massive big difference when it comes to someone who actually is PR savvy and understand how to create a good statement that bring confident and read as success - not to mention guaranteed coverage.

[Natasha]

This negative interviews will be recalled or "corrected" soon, you will see. When people see bad news and hate it, they will tell 10-20 other people and influence their opinions. When people see good news and love it, they may tell it to 3-5 people. This news is a really bad PR for FFXI and slap in the face for the developers - their PR depts, if they have any, will have to correct this mess and respond quickly before it gets out of hand. I think someone there should put a restraining jacket on Tanaka and his teams - which never been known for their savviness when it comes to crafting a good soundbites. You can go read statement by Yoshi on FF14 and you will see a massive big difference when it comes to someone who actually is PR savvy and understand how to create a good statement that bring confident and read as success - not to mention guaranteed coverage.

I certainly hope not, Im glad so many people are getting the wake up call. "oh, this isnt what it was supposed to be? Oh noes!"

[Kimble]

I think almost anyone would agree that the old times arent as great as people seem to think they were and will also agree that abyssea near the end (200k brews, 3 atmas, etc) went way to far. They need to find a good middle ground between the two, not go back to how it was for years.

[Sparthos]

As usual SE hits on what they're good at (model design, graphical prowess, story delivery, music) and fails miserably on the rest (content, player suggestions, justifications for terrible loot systems).

The Voidwatch excuse just doesn't add up. Sure, everyone get's a chance at the loot but why not make it point-based if you're so worried about treasure hoarding/manipulation? This herp-derp argument about someone demanding the ninety pieces of loot that drops which is composed mostly of logs, ores, random seals and other worthless garbage is baloney.

It isn't even like the newest synthesis use this surplus of garbage.

For your 30min time investment you get mostly garbage from VW, battles range from being potentially rewarding (Pil, Qilin, Akvan) to completely worthless (Mimic King, Laidly Laurence, Mordron) all while this stuff is toted as the premier content. Is there any reason why some of the drops can barely surpass Abyssean loot? Seriously?

Even beyond Voidwatch, other rewards just don't add up and spell failed content. Dynamis? The new boss mobs are completely not worth the time, seem hurriedly put together and penalize you for bringing a party. Walk of Echoes? More sidegrade loot, difficult battles with no incentive to team up and scattered coins designed to keep you frustrated in circles.

What should have been content that people logon to play with others has turned into a ghost-town because the long-term incentive just. isn't. there.

Sure, Abyssea had flaws and I'm more than happy to point those out (sup brews, razed ruins, apocalypse) but this could have been toned down and continued with further expansions or we could have had a Voidwatch that was more strategic instead of things coming out of a portal for no freakin' reason.

How about a swarm-type battle where monsters come pouring out of the portal culminating with a boss? How about objectives other than kill the monster like holding it X mins or triggering conditions that cause a conclusion? A scavenger hunt of monsters scattered across a zone like the Dynamis of old? Prevent monsters from crossing a line in a 'hold the fort' style? Kill trash monsters to pop larger monster which then pops larger monster under a time limit?

The only thing you're "watching" by doing this content is loot hitting the "void" because the spinner didn't land on your character again and again and again. It's been nearly 3 months since the last VU and interest in VW has died off already. Why? Blame MW3 or Skyrim but it's really cause the base thinks the content sucks.

[Natasha]

I think almost anyone would agree that the old times arent as great as people seem to think they were and will also agree that abyssea near the end (200k brews, 3 atmas, etc) went way to far. They need to find a good middle ground between the two, not go back to how it was for years.

I prolly wouldn't but im somewhat fanatical about old ffxi. A middle ground would be good improvement I can agree with that. Of course, we would likely disagree on what a middle-ground would be.

[Zagen]

I certainly hope not, Im glad so many people are getting the wake up call. "oh, this isnt what it was supposed to be? Oh noes!"
Is that so they know for certain they can quit now because the many who loved the ease of Abyssea will now know its a hardcore gamer's world to come where doing X fight 1000 times might get you that 1 item you want because of the shitty loot system changes?

Any Good Game Designer or Producer will tell you making the extremist in any genre happy will make your pockets unhappy.

[Luvbunny]

I came back when several friends talked up Abyssea to me, they told me it was the best time to get back into FFXI and that starting over from scratch was about a months affair as opposed to the years affair as it used to be. When I got back and jumped into Abyssea as a player who was as hardcore as they came back in the day that spent up to 9hrs a day camping kings + had a mule watching Tiamat when her window opened I loved what they did with Abyssea.

I started FFXI as a 22 year old, now 30, I loved the fact that I could just log on and get into something that wasent serious or required a lot of investment and the loot was mindblowing compared to all the HNM gear I used to have. As the transition from Abyssea to Voidwatch began, I wanted no part in it, it felt like I been there and done that and dealt with the lowdrop rate mess years ago that was Salvage, Dynamis, Kings and so on, I instantly just lost the will to play because the game was starting to go back into that lowdrop rate mess again.

I was a player who had just about all endgame gear back at 75, I only came back because the game had changed from a mindnumbing grind to being able to jump into abyssea for two hrs a night and make progress. Voidwatch seems to bring me back to the days of slamming your head against a brickwall trying to get drops.

Agreed, Abyssea is the best thing that ever happened in this game. It is a blockbuster coming from Yoshi directed team (and the ToAU team) - hence the current team lead by Tanaka despised it since it is not their claim of fame and will try to do their best to discredit this. I am not sure what is the office politics behind the development team, but SE CEO should get a wind of this and put a kibosh on this negative statements and rest assure to costumers that all is good and they will make more similar content like abyssea in the future that is bigger better more fun and a guaranteed blockbuster and put Tanaka and his team locked in an office somewhere and ban them from ever granting an interview or insight.

[Neisan_Quetz]

The only thing you're "watching" by doing this content is loot hitting the "void" because the spinner didn't land on your character again and again and again. It's been nearly 3 months since the last VU and interest in VW has died off already. Why? Blame MW3 or Skyrim but it's really cause the base thinks the content sucks.


Or even better, the spinner hits the same character again and again, and you wind up with 5 r/ex boots you can't do anything with after the first pair.

[Greatguardian]

I legitimately enjoy Voidwatch, but probably only because I do it sparingly (on the weekends). If I did that shit every day, I would likely throw my PC out the window. Which would probably kill someone, as I have a very large, very heavy enthusiast rig and I live on the second story.

[Luvbunny]

I certainly hope not, Im glad so many people are getting the wake up call. "oh, this isnt what it was supposed to be? Oh noes!"

:) Read other post on lvl 99 cap BCNM. Good thing that the developers read the forum and willing to react to this and offer solutions to both casual and hardcore players. This so called "wake up call" will be a painful one when everyone stop playing after seeing the "old ways" of difficult time consuming frustrating grind rears its ugly head. I know for sure I will "invest" my time on other games or activities.

[Natasha]

Is that so they know for certain they can quit now because the many who loved the ease of Abyssea will now know its a hardcore gamer's world to come where doing X fight 1000 times might get you that 1 item you want because of the shitty loot system changes?

Any Good Game Designer or Producer will tell you making the extremist in any genre happy will make your pockets unhappy.

Not at all what im going for, and old ffxi was far from extremist.

[Natasha]

:) Read other post on lvl 99 cap BCNM. Good thing that the developers read the forum and willing to react to this and offer solutions to both casual and hardcore players. This so called "wake up call" will be a painful one when everyone stop playing after seeing the "old ways" of difficult time consuming frustrating grind rears its ugly head. I know for sure I will "invest" my time on other games or activities.

I have actually and it seems like the majority are actually in favor of a hard fight lol...

[Luvbunny]

I have actually and it seems like the majority are actually in favor of a hard fight lol...

If this is indeed true, they would not even bother to make it in two flavors at all since this is what the majority wants. If you give them 2 options, one where you do very challenging bcnm with 6 people needed, and another one where you trade 20 merits and no battle, I can guarantee you which one of those 2 things the majority will choose.

But hey, you should rejoice since now you can solo this without any items and increase the difficulty from hard to very super extra hard mode and gain a big huge satisfaction knowing that you are able to beat it, solo, with no items to weaken the npc :cool:

[Natasha]

If this is indeed true, they would not even bother to make it in two flavors at all since this is what the majority wants. If you give them 2 options, one where you do very challenging bcnm with 6 people needed, and another one where you trade 20 merits and no battle, I can guarantee you which one of those 2 things the majority will choose.

Thats true that almost everyone would pick the easy way out and thats the same thing i've been trying to explain to you about the other problems with abyssea... providing extremely disadvantageous choices is hardly a choice at all and it kills the spirit of things. Everyone wants the reward, and while the road getting there can be hard and a bit annoying it makes the journey memorable and when its so easy to get around it despite the lost enjoyment people will pick it almost all the time. tis truely a sad day~

edit: where do you get the 20 merits thing? Looking at the dev tracker what they said was weak fight vs hard fight.

[Luvbunny]

Is that so they know for certain they can quit now because the many who loved the ease of Abyssea will now know its a hardcore gamer's world to come where doing X fight 1000 times might get you that 1 item you want because of the shitty loot system changes?

Any Good Game Designer or Producer will tell you making the extremist in any genre happy will make your pockets unhappy.

Don't you worry, they will learn soon from their stupid statement, unhappy pocket result in immediate action - since they have not yet do any harm and creating crap contents - my suggestion is to look back at what is great about Abyssea and do similar or better. Fixing mistakes will cost them 10 times more money than giving consumer exactly what they want (if they still have not yet learn from the mistake of FF14 then SE is dumber than I give them credit for).

[Zagen]

Not at all what im going for, and old ffxi was far from extremist.
10-15 min repop norm vs. lotto/2hr+/24 to 72hr windows?
200k/hr exp min vs. 20-30k (though I should say 3-10k since that's before the ToAU era since those designers came up with Abyssea supposedly)?
Drop rates improved by more than TH vs. Drop rates that didn't seem improved by TH at all many times?

The comparisons can go on.

The real problem with Abyssea wasn't that it opened the door to a casual play style where rewards are near instant for the hardcore and well paced for casuals it is that SE doesn't have the man power isn't willing to dedicate the man power needed to keep churning out that type of content.

[Greatguardian]

Some people just want an excuse to fail.

It's not like they were successful when the game was hard. But the game being hard was an excuse to flop at it.

Now that the game is supereasy, people no longer have an excuse to flop. That killed the spirit of flopping. They should make things harder so that I have a legitimate reason to flop again.

[Luvbunny]

Thats true that almost everyone would pick the easy way out and thats the same thing i've been trying to explain to you about the other problems with abyssea... providing extremely disadvantageous choices is hardly a choice at all and it kills the spirit of things. Everyone wants the reward, and while the road getting there can be hard and a bit annoying it makes the journey memorable and when its so easy to get around it despite the lost enjoyment people will pick it almost all the time. tis truely a sad day~

Trust me I know what you mean, my thing is all about choices. I like the way things are now because it gives me choices, and I am not forced to play the way it was supposed to be - but the choice is there should you ever want to do it. Just like you can have a choice when you do assault - cap the level and do it the hard way or uncapped and do it easy. And you have a choice when you make xp party as well. Granted most people will not choose the long hard way and rather have a quick fix, but it is their choices.

[Natasha]

10-15 min repop norm vs. lotto/2hr+/24 to 72hr windows?
200k/hr exp min vs. 20-30k (though I should say 3-10k since that's before the ToAU era since those designers came up with Abyssea supposedly)?
Drop rates improved by more than TH vs. Drop rates that didn't seem improved by TH at all many times?

The comparisons can go on.

The real problem with Abyssea wasn't that it opened the door to a casual play style where rewards are near instant for the hardcore and well paced for casuals it is that SE doesn't have the man power isn't willing to dedicate the man power needed to keep churning out that type of content.

lol way to site HNMs, the worst example endgame... they were meant to be rare, thats why they had the long / random pop times. As for exp you better believe it, 2 days to max level ... its beyond me how you can think thats acceptable (its essentially a let me skip everything button) and not only am I not a fan of the fact that the content can be done quickly, im also just not a fan of it in general. But you don't need to fight me on it, I'm one person, and no matter if im right or not I can simply be written off.

[Winrie]

I'm sorry to say but neither side is correct in saying either Abyssea made the game better, or Abyssea ruined it, as Abyssea for the most part has had good and bad viewpoints that are plainly visible now that we are this far after it. The first thing i ask myself is my own personal viewpoint, among others, how many years did players on all servers camp HNMs for gear, and considering how long we did it, why is there such an issue with going back to a little grind, i ask myself what pleasure can one take in obtaining things so quickly and effortlessly in an MMORPG with little to no help, why not just play a single player RPG, skyrim something. Just some things ive noted to myself and others within whats left of my friends list of 9 years of FFXI.

The expansions for abyssea came out entirely too fast, to maintain the longevity that an MMORPG needs to have, this wasnt how to do it, unquestionable to anyone.

Atmas made abyssea lowmannable, Not that its a bad thing to be able to take a few buds and go smash some skulls, but for everything in abyssea? no, im sorry, no. Atmas should have been more like what atamacites are now, not super god mode KIs. This im sorry to say, destroyed linkshell coordination, hell even destroyed the need to have linkshells to do anything at all.

Back to longevity of an MMOs lifespan, allowing level 30s to enter abyssea and be able to receive exp that matched lvl 75+ was the most foolish thing they could ever do, Abyssea imo should have been exclusive endgame zones, and exp camp dedicated to alliances of 75+, doing this way would have ensured new players if any, wouldnt struggle with finding exp pts, old zones wouldnt be ghost towns, and things like campaign fov ect would still matter, now its gov to 30, aby to 95 in a day or two. Taking the game from a businessman viewpoint, i killed my replay value of my customers by allowing them to try out every job in the game, and gear them all and skill them all efficiently in 1/10th of the time it used to take, thus calling for shorter lifespans of many accounts.

Proc systems shouldnt have been so specifically dumbed down that it would make many jobs useless. Proc system if you needed to have it, which most of us do not at the moment, should have been randomly generated like dynamis or possibly like voidwatchs system, any type of system that wouldnt destroy the usefulness of jobs.

All the gear in abyssea replaces a large portion of gear which came from the previous set of endgame activities: Ein. Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, Sea, Sky, HNM, ZNM, VNM.
9 Endgame events all holding a various spread of difference in activity to complete and gear? Variety, Why did abyssea have to replace 9 areas of content for high level players instead of being alongside it. Which leads me to say, you can call it emo rage whatever, but many players who did camp HNM, and seriously endgamed for their gear, made a relic, anything pre abyssea, when it was hard to finish things, more than likely felt f**ked by SE for various things as abyssea gear replacing almost everything weve worked for, gear that you could obtain by simply afk swinging mostly cause of atmas.

Im sorry but i miss the days when recieveing a piece of gear you worked for, finishing a relic, claiming some HNM, Effectively lowmanning harder ended content, dinging max level on a job, meant something when you finished. Not all content mind you, im looking at you salvage. But for the most part that bit of the game is dead, every joe on the block has the same gear as you now, there is no longer the diversity there once was, like i said, rather be playing skyrim lol, its about the same at the moment.

[Natasha]

/facepalm

My first face-palm...

[Luvbunny]

The real problem with Abyssea wasn't that it opened the door to a casual play style where rewards are near instant for the hardcore and well paced for casuals it is that SE doesn't have the man power isn't willing to dedicate the man power needed to keep churning out that type of content.

Yup - agreed!! They refuse to put more funds on this game and instead focusing on fixing the craptacular that is FF14. They could reboot FF11 and update it with high res graphic for PC, PS3 and Xbox (which combined should have a big customers installed base worldwide) and treat it as a new launch. You see a lot of "HD Re-release" this day or remake but SE is just dumb that way - they can print money remaking FF6 and FF7 in HD and make millions but they refuse to do that and pour money developing craptacular like FF14, The Last Story, Infinite Undiscovery etc..

[Atomic_Skull]

Players liked Abyssea, they made it to be enjoyed and now they say no more of that, we should never of done it. BALANCE > happy subscribers.

Players liked it but that sort of content just isn't sustainable with a small dev team. There is also the problem of power creep.


The future looks so bright and rosey, aren't we all just so glad we got Tanaka back here?

He never left.

If you don't like the game vote with your feet. You can yell your head off all day but if SE is still getting your money they don't care.

[Luvbunny]

Winrie, the objective now is to sell more and make more money. Abyssea did just that, it give access to everyone, completely accessible for even lvl 30 to do quests and give SE a good amount of sales that bring back many who quit during the 2008-2010 period where contents are rare and the game languished for awhile after the lackluster respond to WoTG. As long as they can create content that is appealing to the masses (read easy, fun, accessible) and bring money, they will do this. And yes you can play more Skyrim now since FFXI is no longer a huge time sink and investment, isn't that grand?

[Zagen]

lol way to site HNMs, the worst example endgame... they were meant to be rare, thats why they had the long / random pop times. As for exp you better believe it, 2 days to max level ... its beyond me how you can think thats acceptable (its essentially a let me skip everything button) and not only am I not a fan of the fact that the content can be done quickly, im also just not a fan of it in general. But you don't need to fight me on it, I'm one person, and no matter if im right or not I can simply be written off.

In Abyssea what's the respawn time of a monster that someone "might" consider an HNM? 1 min ??? respawns with many NMs that can be spammed once they respawn from that 10-15min timer? Oh I know Shinryu with his max 20 hour "respawn" due to possibly not having stones, though with stones its what a 10-20minute walk back and forth? I'm not saying these are HNMs to me but to many other people I've played with they talk about their difficulty for them on that scale.

After I got my first job to 75 the reason I gave a damn about EXP was to level up sub jobs or other jobs to become a more useful asset for events I wanted to do with friends. I already did the stories with my first job outside of the Artifact stories a skip button didn't hurt me since I'm competent enough to be able to learn how to play a job from researching it. Also until SE removed the level caps from mission fights being level 25 or level 75 for the 2-3 mission fight didn't change anything.

[Khajit]

What has this interview told me? It's told me that once I hit 99 I should just get the most visually pleasing gear I can find, take pictures with friends and then quit rather than deal with whatever SE has in store next time in their crusade against people not wanting to force seppuku upon them.

[Natasha]

In Abyssea what's the respawn time of a monster that someone "might" consider an HNM? 1 min ??? respawns with many NMs that can be spammed once they respawn from that 10-15min timer? Oh I know Shinryu with his max 20 hour "respawn" due to possibly not having stones, though with stones its what a 10-20minute walk back and forth? I'm not saying these are HNMs to me but to many other people I've played with they talk about their difficulty for them on that scale.

After I got my first job to 75 the reason I gave a damn about EXP was to level up sub jobs or other jobs to become a more useful asset for events I wanted to do with friends. I already did the stories with my first job outside of the Artifact stories a skip button didn't hurt me since I'm competent enough to be able to learn how to play a job from research it. Also until SE removed the level caps from mission fights being level 25 or level 75 for the 2-3 didn't change anything.

Nothing in abyssea is comparable to an overworld HNM, if anything its more like sea or sky. And you should have to work to get other job options up to par period, otherwise you might as well just make it so that when you have one job level'd you have them all level'd. Now please stop wasting my time by directly replying to me.

[Luvbunny]

All the gear in abyssea replaces a large portion of gear which came from the previous set of endgame activities: Ein. Salvage, Dynamis, Limbus, Sea, Sky, HNM, ZNM, VNM.
9 Endgame events all holding a various spread of difference in activity to complete and gear? Variety, Why did abyssea have to replace 9 areas of content for high level players instead of being alongside it. Which leads me to say, you can call it emo rage whatever, but many players who did camp HNM, and seriously endgamed for their gear, made a relic, anything pre abyssea, when it was hard to finish things, more than likely felt f**ked by SE for various things as abyssea gear replacing almost everything weve worked for, gear that you could obtain by simply afk swinging mostly cause of atmas.

Yes this is grand, I can now have my AF3+1 and AF3+2 with good effort, and no longer have to wait for YEARS for these. I can have access to all the jobs FAST and test them and play them at 95 (soon 99) and have time to learn each one and gear them. And yeah its grand because the game is no longer an investment and require a lot less time to get things done, I mean god forbid I want to do other things that are meaningful and memorable.

[Greatguardian]

Nothing in abyssea is comparable to an overworld HNM, if anything its more like sea or sky. And you should have to work to get other job options up to par period, otherwise you might as well just make it so that when you have one job level'd you have them all level'd. Now please stop wasting my time by directly replying to me.

LOL

Pantokrator shits all over Fafnir/Niddy, are you kidding me? Overworld HNM were hard? If you didn't want to link your bots to as many people as possible to claim and get DKP/loot, you could kill any of them with less than 6 easily.

Yeah, I can duo Pantokrator too. But holy shit, lol. You can't get much easier than overworld HNM.

[Luvbunny]

Nothing in abyssea is comparable to an overworld HNM, if anything its more like sea or sky. And you should have to work to get other job options up to par period, otherwise you might as well just make it so that when you have one job level'd you have them all level'd. Now please stop wasting my time by directly replying to me.

Those sky - sea gears still takes some time to get and you need to put some investment, they are just not as hard as it used to be and you can do it low man now. If you want the augment stuffs, you have to do it regularly. I don't even want them since they are more hassle to get unlike the abyssea gears, but at least now I have a choice with my gears. Even voidwatch is an investment, and walk of echoes as well - it's great that you have so many choices and options and many ways to obtain your gears. You also have options to do it solo-duo, low man or the old school 18 people style. I now have almost events every day and can play with many different type of players and always get something, even trash like logs :)

[Zagen]

Nothing in abyssea is comparable to an overworld HNM, if anything its more like sea or sky. And you should have to work to get other job options up to par period, otherwise you might as well just make it so that when you have one job level'd you have them all level'd. Now please stop wasting my time by directly replying to me.

You do realize many people considered Sky and Sea to be filled with HNMs when 75 was the cap right? Just because you nor I thought that (with the exception of Kirin, JoL/AV in my case) doesn't mean the general consensus wasn't that they were filled with HNMs, heck before I got to Sky I used to think those were HNMs too.

[Winrie]

Winrie, the objective now is to sell more and make more money. Abyssea did just that, it give access to everyone, completely accessible for even lvl 30 to do quests and give SE a good amount of sales that bring back many who quit during the 2008-2010 period where contents are rare and the game languished for awhile after the lackluster respond to WoTG. As long as they can create content that is appealing to the masses (read easy, fun, accessible) and bring money, they will do this. And yes you can play more Skyrim now since FFXI is no longer a huge time sink and investment, isn't that grand?

And you missed the bit where i said people were camping HNMs and doing 9 zones of endgame for YEARS, not one year cap quit. thats not making money its bottlenecking and stopping the flow, and only cause it replaced and destroyed so much established content, not cause it existed.

[Natasha]

LOL

Pantokrator shits all over Fafnir/Niddy, are you kidding me? Overworld HNM were hard? If you didn't want to link your bots to as many people as possible to claim and get DKP/loot, you could kill any of them with less than 6 easily.

Yeah, I can duo Pantokrator too. But holy shit, lol. You can't get much easier than overworld HNM.

Where in my post did I say they were hard?

[Natasha]

You do realize many people considered Sky and Sea to be filled with HNMs when 75 was the cap right? Just because you nor I thought that (with the exception of Kirin, JoL/AV in my case) doesn't mean the general consensus wasn't that they were filled with HNMs, heck before I got to Sky I used to think those were HNMs too.

Yep but thats why I said overworld as sky and sea were a bit different.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Overworld NMs were fun, I mean, sleep actually landed back then.

[Greatguardian]

Where in my post did I say they were hard?


Nothing in abyssea is comparable to an overworld HNM

Non-brew Shinryu shits all over any RotZ/ToAU/WotG overworld HNM, and he's not even that hard.

Don't compare easy content to other easy content and think you're making a point. HNM were piss easy, and only pants-on-head retarded shells still raged fafnir in 2009.