Newest interview (abyssea was a mistake?)

[Zagen]

Yep but thats why I said overworld as sky and sea were a bit different.
What does overworld mean? You're the first person I've ever heard/read use it. Does that mean like land kings, wyrms, ToAU HNMs?
Which of the 24-72 hour HNMs were hard at 75 for any decent group that would be fighting HNMs? As GG stated the only hard part really if you knew what you were doing for the fight already was the claim itself because you were fighting botters.

Edit: Reading other posts that were posted while I wrote this explained "overworld" to mean what I thought it did.

[Natasha]

Non-brew Shinryu shits all over any RotZ/ToAU/WotG overworld HNM, and he's not even that hard.

Don't compare easy content to other easy content and think you're making a point. HNM were piss easy, and only pants-on-head retarded shells still raged fafnir in 2009.

Not comparable in the concept, not difficulty -.- ... The way abyssea was designed and its purpose is nothing like that of HNMs. Has nothing to do with how hard they are to beat.

[Natasha]

What does overworld mean? You're the first person I've ever heard/read use it. Does that mean like land kings, wyrms, ToAU HNMs?
Which of the 24-72 hour HNMs were hard at 75 for any decent group that would be fighting HNMs? As GG stated the only hard part really if you knew what you were doing for the fight already was the claim itself because you were fighting botters.

As I said, has nothing to do with difficulty... has to do with concept.

[Luvbunny]

And you missed the bit where i said people were camping HNMs and doing 9 zones of endgame for YEARS, not one year cap quit. thats not making money its bottlenecking and stopping the flow, and only cause it replaced and destroyed so much established content, not cause it existed.

This so called established old contents are still there, the gears are not completely outdated since you can augment them. And they are still very appealing to some of the players, even the casual ones still want them because now more than ever they are obtainable with low man party. Future updates even hinting at rejuvenating older contents so they are not a waste - but more manageable with low man instead of 18 people. For those who wants the old ways, Voidwatch gives you exactly that without the competition to camp the NM and direct teleport to the zones. Everything is better and more manageable than before. Now people can actually have a life, play the game (and play Skyrim as you have mentioned), and get something done quicker than before.

[Zagen]

As I said, has nothing to do with difficulty... has to do with concept.

Concept of a 24-72 hour window compared to the concept of a 1 min respawn ??? isn't comparable to equate to extreme? Heck in many cases they both still suffer from the bot issue, though technically the ??? bot is a macro.

[Natasha]

Concept of a 24-72 hour window compared to the concept of a 1 min respawn ??? isn't comparable to equate to extreme? Heck in many cases they both still suffer from the bot issue, though technically the ??? bot is a macro.

THIS is why I wanted you to stop talking, you're not getting it. The concept of all random field nms has nothing to do with endgame practice. They were rare monsters and most people were not expected to ever get the items they dropped. That concept 'could' be flawed BUT it is NOT comparable to abyssea where the whole point is to fight nms and do do so constantly.

[Zagen]

THIS is why I wanted you to stop talking, you're not getting it. The concept of all random field nms has nothing to do with endgame practice. They were rare monsters and most people were not expected to ever get the items they dropped. That concept 'could' be flawed BUT it is NOT comparable to abyssea where the whole point is to fight nms and do do so constantly.
Every Endgame/HNM LS I ever was a part of missed your concept because aside from having a break of 24-72 hours those NMs were fought constantly... for years.

Edit: Also when talking about "rare gear" in the year I spent camping D.Ring for PLDs in the group years ago we saw 2 drop. As years went by I learned this was very "lucky" for them. But in comparison in almost a years time of being able to do Shinryu fight I still haven't gotten Twilight Mail. Again luck factor this time not in my favor but hey Mail is more rare in my experience than D.Ring...

[Natasha]

Every Endgame/HNM LS I ever was a part of missed your concept because aside from having a break of 24-72 hours those NMs were fought constantly... for years.

Thats the flaw in the system but make no mistake theres no other reason to have such a system and it is highly suggested throughout the game by mention from npcs and so on 'rare monsters' the very name Notorious Monster and so on (lotto spawns). The problem came about when players determined spawn conditions for these and continually attempted to get them, this does not change the purpose of the system.

[Kimble]

Uh no. They werent meant to be rare, just a time sink.

[Greatguardian]

Why does exclusivity matter to someone who doesn't even have a Brutal Earring?

[Natasha]

Uh no. They werent meant to be rare, just a time sink.

If that was the case they'd just do what he said, make them spawn a lot and drop something you need a million of to get your item.

If you don't think that nms were meant to be rare you must be defective or something. Sorry, but at this point you guys are just getting ridiculous proclaiming something a time sync cause it takes time -.-

[Zagen]

Thats the flaw in the system but make no mistake theres no other reason to have such a system and it is highly suggested throughout the game by mention from npcs and so on 'rare monsters' the very name Notorious Monster and so on (lotto spawns). The problem came about when players determined spawn conditions for these and continually attempted to get them, this does not change the purpose of the system.

This is the correct purpose.

Uh no. They werent meant to be rare, just a time sink.

You can tell yourself its because of "lore" but that's BS excuse to legitimize the time sink factor.

Edit:


If that was the case they'd just do what he said, make them spawn a lot and drop something you need a million of to get your item.

If you don't think that nms were meant to be rare you must be defective or something. Sorry, but at this point you guys are just getting ridiculous proclaiming something a time sync cause it takes time -.-

Look into the core game consents of any successful MMO even some that aren't successful and when you strip story out, rare drops from monsters that are hard to kill or spawn less often are for time sinks.

[Natasha]

Why does exclusivity matter to someone who doesn't even have a Brutal Earring?

Because I deal in concepts? I already said I consider myself casual. Not to mention this is my 4th character.

[Kimble]

If that was the case they'd just do what he said, make them spawn a lot and drop something you need a million of to get your item.

If you don't think that nms were meant to be rare you must be defective or something. Sorry, but at this point you guys are just getting ridiculous proclaiming something a time sync cause it takes time -.-

I'm pretty sure thats what a time sink means, lol.

I think you're just trying to justify not having things in game.

[Natasha]

This is the correct purpose.


You can tell yourself its because of "lore" but that's BS excuse to legitimize the time sink factor.

Oh ookay, then lets have a game where we do NOTHING because if we fight its just a time sync, they should just give us all the items we want. We shouldnt exp, thats a time sync. We shouldnt craft, thats a time sync.

Man are you people stupid.

[Kimble]

Oh ookay, then lets have a game where we do NOTHING because if we fight its just a time sync, they should just give us all the items we want. We shouldnt exp, thats a time sync. We shouldnt craft, thats a time sync.

Man are you people stupid.


Here comes the name calling, lol.

Honestly anyone that plays any MMO so accept the fact that most of the content is a time sink.

[Neisan_Quetz]

All I got from this page was brutal is too hard for casuals.

[Zagen]

Oh ookay, then lets have a game where we do NOTHING because if we fight its just a time sync, they should just give us all the items we want. We shouldnt exp, thats a time sync. We shouldnt craft, thats a time sync.

Man are you people stupid.

TIME SINK Go look it up... The point of a game is to kill time, at its core are time sinks. Story, Graphics, SFX, "Fun" factor are all in a game to make the time sink sell-able to the market.

[Greatguardian]

Because I deal in concepts? I already said I consider myself casual. Not to mention this is my 4th character.

Stop equating the term casual with "Unable to get a Brutal Earring", it's degrading to casuals everywhere.

I'm one too, you know.

[Natasha]

Here comes the name calling, lol.

Honestly anyone that plays any MMO so accept the fact that most of the content is a time sink.

actually all those things are in any game, what determines a time sync is purpose. If something is made for the purpose to stall you, then its a time sync. Legitimate concepts that take a long time are not time syncs.

[Natasha]

Stop equating the term casual with "Unable to get a Brutal Earring", it's degrading to casuals everywhere.

I'm one too, you know.

Uh, you just said its easy... Its definately doable I simply havent done it.

[Natasha]

TIME SINK Go look it up... The point of a game is to kill time, at its core are time sinks. Story, Graphics, SFX, "Fun" factor are all in a game to make the time sink sell-able to the market.

If thats the case then you should stop complaining about stuff being a time sync then.

[Greatguardian]

Why not? It's Brutal Earring.

[Natasha]

Why not? It's Brutal Earring.

Havent gotten around to farming ancient beast coins* for a while, just drifting between friends stuff.

[Kimble]

If thats the case then you should stop complaining about stuff being a time sync then.

You really should learn to spell time sink correctly. We aren't syncing anything together.

[Luvbunny]

Why not? It's Brutal Earring.

LOL, is this some sort of inside joke? Brutal Earring is easy, heck I managed to get many of the Limbus stuffs and Omega/Ultimate atmas as well. Got Bruiser's Earring too. It's great the new FFXI, it is fun accessible and enjoyable - still grindy though :)

[Natasha]

You really should learn to spell time sink correctly. We aren't syncing anything together.

Kinda busy fending off hordes of people, so I apologize if my incorrect word hurt you.

[Greatguardian]

So, you want content/gear to be rare and exclusive.

But either way it won't affect you personally because haven't bothered getting basic staple pieces that you walk to an NPC to get.

So essentially, you want the game to be harder for other people.

Again, of course, not you, because you're still working on walking over to Sagheera to buy some soap, soloing some EP---- mobs, and then trading her some of the coins that rain from the sky.

Okay. I think I understand where you're coming from.

Edit:

LOL, is this some sort of inside joke? Brutal Earring is easy, heck I managed to get many of the Limbus stuffs and Omega/Ultimate atmas as well. Got Bruiser's Earring too. It's great the new FFXI, it is fun accessible and enjoyable - still grindy though :)

No it's not a joke. They just literally do not have a Brutal Earring, all while sitting here berating people about how they made the game too easy.

[Sparthos]

Am I pants on head retarded or is the convo of what qualifies as a timesink wholly irrelevant to the fact that SE consistently fails at creating systems strong enough to hold over their base till the next version update?

Voidwatch with the proper point requirements (read: huge) could have been successful enough to have people bypass the feeling of annoyance receiving constant ores and logs if they had a long term goal to work on... like getting Heavy Metal Plates (through points) or saving points for some armor sets but instead what we have a poorly constructed ANNM system of 90% garbage, 1-1.5hrs to gather a group and a 5~10% chance of seeing an HQ drop, less if you want an HQ2 body.

Sorry SE, even on the concept of sinking time your system comes up short.

As it stands right now, most of the shouts I see while idling my character are for Abyssea catch-ups, occasionally EXP alliances and the Voidwatch shouts are largely relegated to weekend activities. Most people are simply waiting for the next version update because Voidwatch is trash and the random loot doesn't offset the time investment even for an MMO.

Dynamis? Walk of Echoes shouts? lol, dream on.

[Natasha]

So, you want content/gear to be rare and exclusive.

But either way it won't affect you personally because haven't bothered getting basic staple pieces that you walk to an NPC to get.

So essentially, you want the game to be harder for other people.

Again, of course, not you, because you're still working on walking over to Sagheera to buy some soap, soloing some EP---- mobs, and then trading her some of the coins that rain from the sky.

Okay. I think I understand where you're coming from.

Lol what a dumb comment, doesnt have easy gear? My god, that person cant do anything!?! Yeah right.

[Kimble]

Lol what a dumb comment, doesnt have easy gear? My god, that person cant do anything!?! Yeah right.

Well, you are the one going on about how easy this game has gotten yet you cant even seem to get the easiest of easy things.

[Natasha]

Well, you are the one going on about how easy this game has gotten yet you cant even seem to get the easiest of easy things.

Don't have =! to cant get

[Greatguardian]

Lol what a dumb comment, doesnt have easy gear? My god, that person cant do anything!?! Yeah right.

You're not allowed to whine about other people making the game too easy until you have a brutal earring.

Don't worry, the Official Forums aren't going anywhere. When you finally manage to collect all 75 pokem- I mean Ancient Beastcoins, we'll be ready to poke holes in all the other flaws in your argument.

[Natasha]

You're not allowed to whine about other people making the game too easy until you have a brutal earring.

Don't worry, the Official Forums aren't going anywhere. When you finally manage to collect all 75 pokem- I mean Ancient Beastcoins, we'll be ready to poke holes in all the other flaws in your argument.

I probably wont EVER get a brutal earring, I simply don't care to get one at this point. Back when it was 75 cap, I might have. If you had bothered to have read my posts FFXI doesnt offer much for me these days, thus I dont care to Max my gear sets, if i get one i do, if not w/e.. .doesnt even matter with how the game is right now.

[Greatguardian]

My point stands with emphasis, in that case.

^______________________________________________________________________________^

(actually, keep posting prz because I think it's hilarious)

[Neisan_Quetz]

I probably wont EVER get a brutal earring, I simply don't care to get one at this point. Back when it was 75 cap, I might have. If you had bothered to have read my posts FFXI doesnt offer much for me these days, thus I dont care to Max my gear sets, if i get one i do, if not w/e.. .doesnt even matter with how the game is right now.

This is why we can't have nice things.

loldrk

[Kimble]

I wouldnt even consider Brutal "maxing" out. Its like, one of the few things id expect people to have, lol.

[Natasha]

My point stands with emphasis, in that case.

^______________________________________________________________________________^

(actually, keep posting prz because I think it's hilarious)

If you find that to be of benefit to your cause you are a fool. The whole reason why it doesn't matter is because the game is so easy it can be done without simple luxuries.

[Natasha]

I wouldnt even consider Brutal "maxing" out. Its like, one of the few things id expect people to have, lol.

yes because you need an extra 5% double attack rate to do things these days... VV?

[Neisan_Quetz]

... I just...


I'm speechless. Again. I literally cannot respond because of how stupid that remark was.

[Greatguardian]

If you find that to be of benefit to your cause you are a fool. The whole reason why it doesn't matter is because the game is so easy it can be done without simple luxuries.

I DEMAND THAT YOU IMMEDIATELY REQUOTE ME AFTER FIXING THE SIZE OF MY SMILEY FACE BECAUSE IT LOOKS REALLY STUPID WHEN IT TAKES UP TWO LINES.

A GOOD DAY TO YOU, SIR.

[Natasha]

... I just...


I'm speechless. Again. I literally cannot respond because of how stupid that remark was.

Do explain, and enlighten me.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'll get back to you once I stop rolling on the floor laughing.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Whee, finally finished laughing.

Using VV other than proc whoring (well I guess skillups if you're gimp/on underleveled job) is retarded and you're a gimp hypocrite.

Have a nice day.

[Luvbunny]

I think Natasha was commenting that as concept, the game is too easy and getting the items are no longer giving him/her a satisfaction anymore since it does not provide adequate challenge and no longer "meaningful" as accomplishment. And everything is too easy with the direct teleport since you no longer have to waste 10-20 mnts wandering around between areas to reach your destination. Plus everyone can now have multiple jobs at 95 in a couple of days and hence be useful when they are needed to fill certain roles in events. Not to mention Ground Tome making the grind less of a grind since you get many benefits and random chance to get the exclusive ring for skill ups - and the auto repeat of the pages actually make the old school party very very appealing. He/she wanted the game to the way it was like in 2003-2005 when everything is work and to get anything done you have to tear out your hair and stare at your screen for hours waiting while you manicure your toe nails. To each her/his own I suppose.

The game is way better now since everyone who wants to put an extra effort can now acquire things that used to take years to get and not without the help of 17 other people and a large dedicated LS. Now we all can get the gears we want with minimal fuss, have fun doing it, no drama needed, no BS ass kissing, and clearly no elitist favorites in LS getting everything while the rest worked for them. Now you can get things done with 2-3 other people. And for everyone else who yearn for the way things used to be, there is Logwatch - err Voidwatch.

[Natasha]

Whee, finally finished laughing.

Using VV other than proc whoring is retarded and you're a gimp hypocrite.

Have a nice day.

In no sense am I being hypocritical, Im not gimp but going from what the player standard I see what you mean but as I said I havent played seriously for some time now. I don't claim to be some great hardcore player, Im just an fan of how FFXI used to be. You are a pathetic little worm who obsesses over gear and doesnt care to think something through. Good day.

[Greatguardian]

I think Natasha was commenting that as concept, the game is too easy and getting the items are no longer giving him/her a satisfaction anymore since it does not provide adequate challenge and no longer "meaningful" as accomplishment. To each her/his own I suppose. The game is way better now since everyone who wants to put an extra effort can now acquire things that used to take years to get and not without the help of 17 other people and a large dedicated LS. Now we all can get the gears we want with minimal fuss, have fun doing it, no drama needed, no BS ass kissing, and clearly no elitist favorites in LS getting everything while the rest worked for them. Now you can get things done with 2-3 other people. And for everyone else who yearn for the way things used to be, there is Logwatch - err Voidwatch.

See, a lack of a feeling of accomplishment for acquiring difficult items is only relevant to people who ....



wait for it....





acquire difficult items.

It means jack shit to everyone else. I can see multi-relics being all pissy about how anyone can farm a relic solo in a couple months now. But no-brutal dude? Nah, son.

[Kimble]

You can't say "i'm not gimp" then proceed to not have a brutal.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In no sense am I being hypocritical, Im not gimp but going from what the player standard I see what you mean but as I said I havent played seriously for some time now. I don't claim to be some great hardcore player, Im just an fan of how FFXI used to be. You are a pathetic little worm who obsesses over gear and doesnt care to think something through. Good day.

Actually I find you pretty hilarious, and haven't had a good laugh all day.

[Natasha]

See, a lack of a feeling of accomplishment for acquiring difficult items is only relevant to people who ....



wait for it....





acquire difficult items.

It means jack shit to everyone else. I can see multi-relics being all pissy about how anyone can farm a relic solo in a couple months now. But no-brutal dude? Nah, son.

I thought we'd established that brutal was...

Wait for it...

Not difficult to acquire.

And to be clear luvbunny is mostly right, except that its not just gear but the game in general that isnt as fun as it was.

[Natasha]

You can't say "i'm not gimp" then proceed to not have a brutal.

Uhh, yes I can and I did. Hate to use an internet meme but wth... You jelly? >.>

[Neisan_Quetz]

I thought we established you were...

Wait for it...

A hypocrite moaning about how stuff should be harder to get but can't walk out of their moghouse and acquire easy items.

[Natasha]

Actually I find you pretty hilarious, and haven't had a good laugh all day.

You're welcome.

[Greatguardian]

No, you're pretty gimp. I'm reeeeeally not jelly of your Mythril Grip +1.

[Natasha]

No, you're pretty gimp. I'm reeeeeally not jelly of your Mythril Grip +1.

Oh no I can tell you are! You even mentioned it specifically! You went out of your way for me? You so spice.

For the record, reason I use that is sheer utter laziness but even had i upgraded it you wouldnt agree with the one i would have picked as I don't cookie cutter build immediately like everone else and try to pick up items that compliment what I use as well as stuff for future builds (like your oh so precious double hit)

[Luvbunny]

And to be clear luvbunny is mostly right, except that its not just gear but the game in general that isnt as fun as it was.

I think you are one of the few people who equate "accomplishment and satisfaction" as something that takes a lot of time to get and have to go through many hoops and challenges. To be clear, those things are still there, they never go away, certain old school things are still very challenging (not to mention extremely grindy even with the new style of play) - but the biggest difference now, everyone who is willing to put some extra time and work for it, can have them and no longer need 17 other people for this.

For example, old school party is still viable - assuming you can find 5 other people who also want the nostalgia factor. Now it is more appealing with ground tome and auto repeat reward. The mobs are still hard to do for 6 people fighting VT-IT but now, you get more reward xpwise. And you don't really have to deal with congested camp anymore. There are still many viable hunting ground in the old school camp in Crawler Nest, Kuftal Tunnel, Boyahda Tree, Gustav Tunnel, Cape Terrigan, Valley of Sorrow, and Sky. Now you can get there super fast due to direct teleport.

There are now more options when it come to gears - old gears are still wanted - and now more attainable than ever. Trying to parade around in PJ with the "super hard to acquire" gears are no longer seen as "accomplishment" and only available for the few since now every single person who buy and play the game, can get it if they work for it. For me that is a big WIN! You work for it, you can have it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

No brutal

Can't kill Orthrus

Mythril+1

Chiv

Spike Earring


Can't walk to Sagheera or the AH, so you're gimp and lazy, yet say gear is too easy to get, what?

[Greatguardian]

Oh no I can tell you are! You even mentioned it specifically! You went out of your way for me? You so spice.)

See, ladies and gentlemen. This is what we call a "Defense Mechanism". While thought to deter heckling and bamboozling, this particular defense mechanism generally has the opposite effect - instead inciting the would-be e-bullies as they pursue a better laugh than they've had all week.

The proper course of action, for those in the audience, is not to deny gimpnosity, but to accept it and live with it. "My Dark Knight is really really gimp, I just don't care any more because I have lost interest in the game". Now that is a sane and reasonable response. I have a lot of respect for someone with the testicular fortitude to come out and say something like that.

This, however, does not seem likely to happen in this particular case. On with the heckling!

[Natasha]

No brutal

Can't kill Orthrus

Mythril+1

Chiv

Spike Earring


Can't walk to Sagheera or the AH, so you're gimp and lazy, yet say gear is too easy to get, what?

Eh, i'd just be brewing stuff for gear anyway... which sucks

[Natasha]

See, ladies and gentlemen. This is what we call a "Defense Mechanism". While thought to deter heckling and bamboozling, this particular defense mechanism generally has the opposite effect - instead, inciting the would-be e-bullies as they pursue a better laugh than they've had all week.

The proper course of action, for those in the audience, is not to deny gimpnosity, but to accept it and live with it. "My Dark Knight is really really gimp, I just don't care any more because I have lost interest in the game". Now that is a sane and reasonable response. I have a lot of respect for someone with the testicular fortitude to come out and say something like that.

This, however, does not seem likely to happen in this particular case. On with the heckling!

Actually I call it counter-troll or (troll the troll) because having gear or not having it has nothing to do with concept development. Did the dev team have relic weapons and brutal earrings and such when they made the game? I hope so, or the games mechanics might be screwed cause they know nothing if they dont have those.

[Luvbunny]

Eh, i'd just be brewing stuff for gear anyway... which sucks

Nah you don't have to brew everything if you want some challenges, and they are certainly doable without brew - every single thing can be done in many different ways now. It opens up different strategy, it gives people some room to experiment and try different atma combination, and if you really know your jobs, some surprising result on what is possible. The game is more fun, and more interesting, and have tons of options and choices - the developer should be able to see this and not brood over Abyssea (cough cough - yeah sorry team Yoshi did a great job - suck on this team Tanaka and man up, step up and actually DO YOUR JOB and fix voidwatch and walk of echoes - we pay monthly fees here).

Here on FFXI there are many paying subscribers who expect result and contents - yet team Tanaka now brood over the biggest success to date when it come to expansion. Team Yoshi now being put in FF14 to clean up the mess that team Tanaka did, and manage to do an amazing job from the look of it. I am not surprised if team Yoshi proposed the reboot to version 2.0 because the mess that is version 1 is simply unfixable in the long terms.

[Kimble]

I have a brutal so what exactly am I jelly of?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Suck less, kill Orthrus without needing brew, convert cruor to gil, buy Brutal.

Gear really is too easy to get.

[Greatguardian]

The reality of a player matters in the context of content development because it specifically speaks to how the proposed changes would affect the player proposing them.

In the case where someone without a brutal earring proposes that Relics be harder to obtain (example), people will generally lamblast them because all they're doing is making the game more difficult for other people while having no negative impact on the player in question - after all, 200~ Million gil worth of currency is a lot harder to get than 75 Ancient Beastcoins.

These are what we like to call "Party Poopers". Or, "If I can't have it, NO ONE CAN"s.

These are generally gimp, downtrodden individuals who have never tasted true and lasting success in the game world, and feel that no one else should have it any easier than they did. These people are typically extraordinarily jealous and/or angry about the fact that "Lesser" people are able to obtain the same, or better, gear as/than them.

These people talk about the sense of accomplishment in success and the grind that should be necessary in the game, but they aren't really concerned about other people being able to feel accomplished. All they want is to eventually rise to the top themselves, where no other "Lesser" beings are permitted entry.

Of course, this has never happened for these people, and likely will never happen, so as that reality slowly sinks in for them they become bitter, resentful, and eventually incapable of working towards any goal other than the complete elimination of fun for everyone else in the game. If they can't be the very best like no one ever was, no one can.

[Natasha]

Nah you don't have to brew everything if you want some challenges, and they are certainly doable without brew - every single thing can be done in many different ways now. It opens up different strategy, it gives people some room to experiment and try different atma combination, and if you really know your jobs, some surprising result on what is possible. The game is more fun, and more interesting, and have tons of options and choices - the developer should be able to see this and not brood over Abyssea (cough cough - yeah sorry team Yoshi did a great job - suck on this team Tanaka and man up, step up and actually DO YOUR JOB and fix voidwatch and walk of echoes - we pay monthly fees here).

I know that but i'd end up brewing anyway.

[Natasha]

I have a brutal so what exactly am I jelly of?

Not having one.

[Natasha]

Suck less, kill Orthrus without needing brew, convert cruor to gil, buy Brutal.

Gear really is too easy to get.

Again, not doing is not = to being unable to do.

[Kimble]

Actually, Ito was the lead director of Abyssea add-ons who then later was promoted to the lead director of FFXI as a whole.

[Natasha]

The reality of a player matters in the context of content development because it specifically speaks to how the proposed changes would affect the player proposing them.

In the case where someone without a brutal earring proposes that Relics be harder to obtain (example), people will generally lamblast them because all they're doing is making the game more difficult for other people while having no negative impact on the player in question - after all, 200~ Million gil worth of currency is a lot harder to get than 75 Ancient Beastcoins.

These are what we like to call "Party Poopers". Or, "If I can't have it, NO ONE CAN"s.

These are generally gimp, downtrodden individuals who have never tasted true and lasting success in the game world, and feel that no one else should have it any easier than they did. These people are typically extraordinarily jealous and/or angry about the fact that "Lesser" people are able to obtain the same, or better, gear as/than them.

These people talk about the sense of accomplishment in success and the grind that should be necessary in the game, but they aren't really concerned about other people being able to feel accomplished. All they want is to eventually rise to the top themselves, where no other "Lesser" beings are permitted entry.

Of course, this has never happened for these people, and likely will never happen, so as that reality slowly sinks in for them they become bitter, resentful, and eventually incapable of working towards any goal other than the complete elimination of fun for everyone else in the game. If they can't be the very best like no one ever was, no one can.

I am aware of what you speak but that does not BAR it. For example, say I smoke and you smoke and I tell you not to cause its bad for your health. Well, in that case I would be hypocritical but its still good advice.

[Olor]

The proper course of action, for those in the audience, is not to deny gimpnosity, but to accept it and live with it.

See my signature for an example.

[Kimble]

Not having one.

Im jelly that you dont have one?

[Kimble]

I am aware of what you speak but that does not BAR it. For example, say I smoke and you smoke and I tell you not to cause its bad for your health. Well, in that case I would be hypocritical but its still good advice.

So do as I say, not as I do?

[Greatguardian]

See my signature for an example.

My NIN is gimp as shit, lol. Loud and proud. The rest of my jobs aren't bad, though. I blame most of my NIN's sucktasticness on a lack of a decent mainhand weapon, as theoretically the rest of my gear is decent.

[Natasha]

So do as I say, not as I do?

More like do whats right, regardless of what I do.

[Greatguardian]

More like do whats right, regardless of what I do.

You should run for Congress.

[Luvbunny]

I know that but i'd end up brewing anyway.

Why brew when you don't have to do it. There are some aby stuffs that I solo, it is harder and longer but once you get the pattern, it is doable just like everything else in the game (even game like Demon Souls).Now i must do logwatch for a chance of another craptacular spectacular that is more logs.

[Olor]

You should run for Congress.

because gov't isn't already bad enough amirite?

[Natasha]

You should run for Congress.

I bet you guys would be rolling all over the place while I stone face through the TV at you.

[Natasha]

because gov't isn't already bad enough amirite?

Oooooooh you suck >.>

[Kimble]

Lol this just reminds me of Family Guy "believe what I say or I'll hurt you"

[Natasha]

Why brew when you don't have to do it. There are some aby stuffs that I solo, it is harder and longer but once you get the pattern, it is doable just like everything else in the game (even game like Demon Souls).Now i must do logwatch for a chance of another craptacular spectacular that is more logs.

Well because Im on only limited times for the month, if I was going to do it otherwise I would do it when I can get a couple people. (atm Im just doing w/e my friends are doing when I log on)

[Greatguardian]

because gov't isn't already bad enough amirite?

Ouch! Here I was thinking par for the course.

[Natasha]

Lol this just reminds me of Family Guy "believe what I say or I'll hurt you"

Supportive arguments = I'll hurt you?

[Kimble]

Right just like im "jelly" that you don't have a brutal while I do.

[Natasha]

Well, you guys get what you want. Im going away now, I don't have 6 hrs to argue on forums (despite pretty much doing that today). My statements stand, some may agree but most probably will not and I accepted that from the start.

Safe to say I have little faith in ffxi's community.

[Kimble]

Maybe if everyone besides you agrees, its not the community that is wrong.

[Khajit]

Thank you for helping people maintain their faith in human stupidity.

[Greatguardian]

Considering the Neutrino experiments being conducted at OPERA right now, someone needs to give poor ol' Al Einstein some support.

[SpankWustler]

Actually I call it counter-troll or (troll the troll) because having gear or not having it has nothing to do with concept development.

Depending on the concept, it can. The items you've obtained wouldn't matter if this were a discussion of proc systems or job balance or how to roast a suckling pig for Christmas or which brand and flavor of mouthwash is best suited for drinking.

However, in a discussion of the difficulty of obtaining items, it holds some relevance. Not only is a Brutal Earring an example of an easily obtained piece of equipment, it's also an example of a relatively old piece of equipment. It predates all of Treasures of Aht Urghan, for example.

Knowing that, it's really hard not to think that you're commenting on something that will never affect you either way. If you weren't playing much around the time Limbus came out, and you aren't playing much now, why do you even care enough to chime in on this?

I guess it is possible you've obtained a lot of stuff and gotten banned a couple of times. In that case, yes, what you have currently isn't nearly as relevant (but still equally funny) because you did obtain stuff in the past. However, what someone has obtained is totally relevant to his or her input about obtaining stuff.

As to roasting suckling pigs, the answer is not to buy any pigs over 40 pounds and to start on a low temperature and finish high. A normal oven actually works great. The reason for the smaller pig is so it will actually fit in a home oven, and so the muscles won't have fully developed (and become tough) yet.

As to drinking mouth wash, the answer is "anything not mint flavored". You might think the fake mint flavors will smooth out the bold flavors of alcoholic oral disinfectant, but they no such thing.

[Meyi]

^_________________________________________________________________^
GG, thanks for the new signature. It's so kawaii daysu!

Also, wow, this topic. It's a train wreck and I can't look away! Every time I click on a new page, there's 3 more! I'm sure it'll be locked soon and that makes me very sad. :( One of the Official Forum's best topics for entertainment.

I'm still at the lolBrutal Earring part!

[Karbuncle]

I'm still lol'ing at the thought of brutal being beyond the reach of a casual.

I guess buying 75 coins from a bazaar for about 700k or less is hardcore >_>

- I got mine when it first came out, back when most groups did a "Split coin" bit at the end of each run, each member coming out with about 3-4 per run, and them costing ~15k each. Took me a while back then =.=

[Zagen]

Boy did I miss a lot going home from work and shopping for some goceries... I had a response for Natasha but felt it only fair I caught up on the rest of the thread and couldn't remember my response after the lols about Brutal Earring.

A serious question for the rest, did I miss something where Brutal isn't still one of the best earrings to have anymore?

[Economizer]

A serious question for the rest, did I miss something where Brutal isn't still one of the best earrings to have anymore?

Although it has been like this since 75 cap, the Brutal is not good whenever you have a multihitter that hits more then twice a round, such as a Kraken Club or the magian multihitters.

[Spiritreaver]

yes because you need an extra 5% double attack rate to do things these days... VV?

You garnered goodwill with me when you made the 'Boost Entropy' petition thread and you seem like a honestly decent sort; but i'm stopping at post #289 to say just stop. Please, just stop posting in this thread.

I'm gonna finish this thread now and i pray to god that you stopped shortly after the quoted post....

[Atomic_Skull]

If thats the case then you should stop complaining about stuff being a time sync then.

What exactly do you mean by a time "sync" in relation to MMOs?

[Runespider]

Why is it the people that want the old ways back are usually the ones that did it the least (or that quit for FFXIV and now are crawling back on their hands and knees cause it sucks).

Most people I know of that actually did old endgame hardcore don't want to go back to that horrible s***. I did Salvage 3 times a week, Dyna twice, Limbus twice, Ein twice, Assault over and over to get points to...do salvage, HNM every other moment I was free and playing the game I pay to play (fu sandwowrm/DI) cause the LS would guilt trip you if you didn't fkin go and you were online and I'd would rather not go back to it.

Some scrub saying how easy the game has become that doesn't even have a brutal earring needs to be seen as the pure troll they are and stfu seriously.

[Atomic_Skull]

FFXI is running on a skeleton crew. The development team has been reduced to so few people that they simply don't have the manpower to put out abyssea style content as fast as the players can burn through it. And SE increasing the development team size is highly, highly unlikely at this point in the game's lifespan. Abyssea was originally intended to cut player's ties to FFXI and allow them to have a sense of completion with the game before everyone transitioned to FFXIV. They weren't looking at FFXI long term when they made it because they assumed FFXI would be a ghost town by now.

FFXIV is the new focus not FFXI and you can yell and scream all you want but that's not going to change. No matter how wrong you think they are about this, that is the direction SE is taking. They have taken an all or nothing stance on this and either FFXIV will succeed or they will burn the MMO division to the ground trying.

[Ritsuka]

You don't get it. Abyssea was fun, no one argues that. But it's far from a success. It's bad, and it killed FFXI, possibly for good this time.

FFXI is a MMORPG, and one of any MMORPG's main goals should be longevity. Part of longevity is finding the balance between enjoyable content and slow progression. Too slow, and players lose interest, too fast, and you're not able to dish out enough content in time to keep people entertained. Abyssea tipped that balance way into the latter category. It's as if the development team forgot what most gamers, especially online gamers, are like. They plow through content. Just a few weeks after Heroes of Abyssea was released, all the mobs in there have already been defeated, more than once. Three months after it was released, many HNMLS have quit for good, because they had all Empyreans finished and every piece of gear they wanted. And for casual players it only took longer (and not much, because they're getting the hang of it as well.

In short, Abyssea removed a large chunk of the hardcore players from FFXI. However, those players were the ones who were able to deal with real content better, which is why now everyone complains about Voidwatch. It's very hard to go back to "normal" FFXI, after Abyssea, which was FFXI on ecstasy. And I'm not sure if people will ever be able to recover.

Old FFXI had it right. You may have considered it too slow, or too hard, or whatever, but thankfully what you think doesn't count, only numbers count. And in the decade that FFXI existed, never have more people quit than after Abyssea was released. Maybe some people will return some time from now, but a large part of the damage is done. We'll see what will become of this game, but whatever you wanna think, Abyssea was a bad move on SE's part (and they know it, as you can see).

About the interview... I'm quite surprised SE admitted this. Honestly, I wasn't even sure if they even knew what was going on. But kudos to them for saying it like it is, let's hope they get back in gear to give us real content.

Also, shut up:

I agree i think it killed the game bad made to easy made so many ppl lazy now new players dont know jack about how to play this game the real way.

[Arcon]

Why is it the people that want the old ways back are usually the ones that did it the least (or that quit for FFXIV and now are crawling back on their hands and knees cause it sucks).

We apparently know completely different people, because in my eyes it's exactly the opposite. People who did old content regularly are the ones who want it back, including me. And I know plenty of people who quit because of it.

But guess what, neither my nor your fucking opinion matters. SE cannot sustain content like Abyssea over any long period of time. It is not possible. Impossible. Do you know what that fucking word means? No matter what you argue about how awesome Abyssea is and how much the old FFXI sucked, it doesn't change the fact that Abyssea-like content can not be maintained regularly. It is wishful thinking. And not just because XI runs on a skeleton crew, even before it was pretty much impossible. Developing Abyssea took them over a year (just from what we know, quite possibly a lot longer). It took players a few weeks per each release to burn through it (longer at first, because it took people some time to figure it out, not much though). You do the math. It doesn't work. It doesn't matter if it's better. It's not healthy for the game. Period. The end. If you wanna argue this (which, sadly, apparently you do), you just don't wanna admit it to yourself.


Some scrub saying how easy the game has become that doesn't even have a brutal earring needs to be seen as the pure troll they are and stfu seriously.

If some scrub without a Brutal Earring finds the game too easy, then it fucking is too easy. Why are you hanging on what they said? Let it fucking go already, it was over ten fucking pages ago. It doesn't change anything. Abyssea-like content cannot be maintainted. It is a physical impossibility. Get over your fucking self.

[Kriegsgott]

the only mistake was the lvl 30 access to Abyssea

[ruzoko]

Why is it the people that want the old ways back are usually the ones that did it the least (or that quit for FFXIV and now are crawling back on their hands and knees cause it sucks).

Most people I know of that actually did old endgame hardcore don't want to go back to that horrible s***. I did Salvage 3 times a week, Dyna twice, Limbus twice, Ein twice, Assault over and over to get points to...do salvage, HNM every other moment I was free and playing the game I pay to play (fu sandwowrm/DI) cause the LS would guilt trip you if you didn't fkin go and you were online and I'd would rather not go back to it.

Some scrub saying how easy the game has become that doesn't even have a brutal earring needs to be seen as the pure troll they are and stfu seriously.

Old endgame did suck if you decided to dedicate your life to it, i personally ran endgame and spaced it out through the years, never had an issue with guilt trips nor did i guilt trip the members, sorry to say your one of the people who let a "Game" become work for you, FFXI now is way too easy to me personally, the abyssea entry at 30 probably the worst idea as now you can burn a job from 1-95 in 2 days. Gear is all the same easily obtainable nothing that really separates the better players from a random moron who burns a job to 95 and has no clue how to use it. Now as for this whole Brutal Earring debate it really is just about useless to anyone without a double attack set, you stick 5% on someone it will trigger just not often, and to call someone a troll over just not having an earring, that i find lol some gear i myself dragged out just because i had no use for it at the time, and as far as im concerned the only trolls i see here are the ones bashing others over gear, just because they dont have it does not mean they dont know how it works.

[kylani]

You don't get it. Abyssea was fun, no one argues that. But it's far from a success. It's bad, and it killed FFXI, possibly for good this time.

FFXI is a MMORPG, and one of any MMORPG's main goals should be longevity. Part of longevity is finding the balance between enjoyable content and slow progression. Too slow, and players lose interest, too fast, and you're not able to dish out enough content in time to keep people entertained. Abyssea tipped that balance way into the latter category. It's as if the development team forgot what most gamers, especially online gamers, are like. They plow through content. Just a few weeks after Heroes of Abyssea was released, all the mobs in there have already been defeated, more than once. Three months after it was released, many HNMLS have quit for good, because they had all Empyreans finished and every piece of gear they wanted. And for casual players it only took longer (and not much, because they're getting the hang of it as well.

In short, Abyssea removed a large chunk of the hardcore players from FFXI. However, those players were the ones who were able to deal with real content better, which is why now everyone complains about Voidwatch. It's very hard to go back to "normal" FFXI, after Abyssea, which was FFXI on ecstasy. And I'm not sure if people will ever be able to recover.

Old FFXI had it right. You may have considered it too slow, or too hard, or whatever, but thankfully what you think doesn't count, only numbers count. And in the decade that FFXI existed, never have more people quit than after Abyssea was released. Maybe some people will return some time from now, but a large part of the damage is done. We'll see what will become of this game, but whatever you wanna think, Abyssea was a bad move on SE's part (and they know it, as you can see).

About the interview... I'm quite surprised SE admitted this. Honestly, I wasn't even sure if they even knew what was going on. But kudos to them for saying it like it is, let's hope they get back in gear to give us real content.

Also, shut up:

Exactly! Abyssea is pretty much why I gave up on FFXI.

[ruzoko]

Exactly! Abyssea is pretty much why I gave up on FFXI.

Abyssea is what brought me to feeling FFXI does have an end, whereas before it didnt.

[Winrie]

Abyssea is what brought me to feeling FFXI does have an end, whereas before it didnt.

I feel the same way somewhat, but as most would say on this thread, abyssea revolutionized everything in final fantasy, not replaces and made all of the content obsolete.

No instead we get people mentioning other content has augments, most augments up to now, (Not future augments as i know someone will retard read this and try to mention future shit that isnt out) Hardly any of them compare to abyssea gear, so why even do the content if the gear isnt to par, its become a 'do that event til you get that piece then we ditch it and go back to abyssea' Yeah sorry no, thats plain as day, do some searches to old content areas if you want to contest that fact. and if people are really ganna use the 'it helped me maintain life and enjoy the game without the time sinks' then you have or had some extreme issues and shouldnt be on an MMO in the first place if you have heavy time constraints.

[ruzoko]

I feel the same way somewhat, but as most would say on this thread, abyssea revolutionized everything in final fantasy, not replaces and made all of the content obsolete.

No instead we get people mentioning other content has augments, most augments up to now, (Not future augments as i know someone will retard read this and try to mention future shit that isnt out) Hardly any of them compare to abyssea gear, so why even do the content if the gear isnt to par, its become a 'do that event til you get that piece then we ditch it and go back to abyssea' Yeah sorry no, thats plain as day, do some searches to old content areas if you want to contest that fact. and if people are really ganna use the 'it helped me maintain life and enjoy the game without the time sinks' then you have or had some extreme issues and shouldnt be on an MMO in the first place if you have heavy time constraints.

Definately agree with this, if you dont have the time for the game dont play it, for those of us who had some time to spare to ffxi this new era of do whatever whenever killed what ffxi used to be.

[Zaknafein]

Why is it the people that want the old ways back are usually the ones that did it the least (or that quit for FFXIV and now are crawling back on their hands and knees cause it sucks).

Most people I know of that actually did old endgame hardcore don't want to go back to that horrible s***. I did Salvage 3 times a week, Dyna twice, Limbus twice, Ein twice, Assault over and over to get points to...do salvage, HNM every other moment I was free and playing the game I pay to play (fu sandwowrm/DI) cause the LS would guilt trip you if you didn't fkin go and you were online and I'd would rather not go back to it.

Some scrub saying how easy the game has become that doesn't even have a brutal earring needs to be seen as the pure troll they are and stfu seriously.

I have suspected since this website began that you were just a gimp on Ramuh. Then overtime as abyssea was released you, and the other gimps started feeling good about yourselves to the point you felt like pro's. Yet here in this quote you seem to talk about all the end game content you did, and HNM pre-abyssea.

So if you're such a pro have some balls, and tell us your character name, and LS from Ramuh. No threat to your E security.. Ramuh is gone. If you were a decent player I'll eat my hat. You'll just cite some of your "Amagad Gaiz!" "I'm entitled to my internet anonymity." BS.. However you, and I know the truth. You decided to go stealth on this forum so you could talk like you're all that without anyone checking your profile, and seeing you as the gimp you are.

Please feel free to prove me wrong.


People who did old content regularly are the ones who want it back, including me. And I know plenty of people who quit because of it.

This is the truth.

[Kimble]

Their thing says they are from Sylph, why would the be from Ramuh?

Honestly, Old FFXI wasnt as great as people remember it being. Some events werent that bad. Limbus, Einherjar, Salvage.

I hope to god they never go back to HNM.

[Zaknafein]

Their "thing" is a mule, and can be from anywhere. Prior to people being able to skirt the forum with mules however the main used to read Ramuh. Craptastic decision to let people post from mules on here instead of main characters. Almost as bad of an idea as abyssea...

[Kimble]

I thought these forums came out after Ramuh was no longer a server.

[Zaknafein]

Incorrect.

[Kimble]

I like how people say abyssea was so horrible and shitty, yet they ate it up and did everything it had to offer, lol.

[Lokithor]

I find it a amazing how many people (still certainly a minority though) consider Abyssea to be the death of FFXI. Those are the ones that found it OK to repeat the same, years old content, over and over and over again, comfortable in the sameness of their world. Abyssea and the Magian Trials saved this game. Before these events, all content was focused on restricted access events repeated endlessly for very low percentage random drops. Abyssea and Magian changed this to systems where people could measure their progress to goals in a predictable fashion with much lower access restrictions. This made it much more player friendly and was overwhelmingly (a certain vocal minority excepted) applauded.

So, what do we have now? VW is a return to big alliance, restricted access, repeat endlessly for low percentage random drops, now made even worse by not being able to direct alliance drops to those who actually need the item. Now we read that the development team seems to think that this is the right model, despite the opinion of the majority of players.

Here's the solution. Create a single (one will do) server for FFXI "Classic" and move all of the dinosaurs there, where the level cap remains 75 and they can live their endless MMORPG groundhog day. The rest of us can move on and not be bothered with shouts of "get off my lawn" when we walk past.

FFXI needs more content that has Abyssea / Magian modelled systems of reward, not fewer.

What is really missing in the last few years though is real FF content. What is the hallmark of the FF series? Gameplay yes but more so character and story. That has really fallen off. WoTG was actually great from that respect - except it took way to long to play out. It was like trying to read war and peace one paragraph every 6 months. What the game needs is more new zones, more adventure, compelling stories written through challenging quests and missions.

And more Abyssea style content.

[Zaknafein]

I like how people say abyssea was so horrible and shitty, yet they ate it up and did everything it had to offer, lol.

Partaking in abyssea, because it was the only relevant EG event after 94% of the game was replaced/outdated by it doesn't mean everyone was all titillated & swooning. We did it because that's where af3, and new age weapons were placed at.

Also I am not anti everything about abyssea. I was happy to see casual gamers get a chance to gear themselves out properly.

I was less enthusiastic to see a lot of those casuals then become the next gen elitests, and/or suddenly think they were master tacticians.

I am a fan of the proc system. Empyreans. WoE versions. Seeing unloved jobs getting some playtime.

Not so much of a fan to see DA botfest become spam trade ???, apradar to track timed spawns, or fleehacking to pop vnm.

Imo the level 30 entry to abyssea was the biggest mistake.

So it had it's good, and bad points. For me it just broke the game too much.

[Kimble]

Eh, level 30 entry really didn't matter as most of the people still playing had already leveled a few jobs to 75. If they didn't really understand how to play then, having to wait till 75 to enter abyssea wasnt going to teach them.

[Vold]

I hate scrubs. They ain't good for nothin'. The worst kind are the ones who don't even know they're scrubs and call other people out on it. They're usually people who are pro anon so they can spew whatever the hell they want without backla-oh wait look at my mule character under my name nevermind what I said.


You know on a serious note the direction that Abyssea could have been would have been accomplished if SE hadn't jumped the gun with FFXIV. It really was like 5 years ahead of it's time. We didn't really need it and that's the problem for both games. No one was ready for a different FF experience with 14 and 14 is killing 11 by lack of developer support. It's an expensive lesson learned but hey, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[Luvbunny]

Here's the solution. Create a single (one will do) server for FFXI "Classic" and move all of the dinosaurs there, where the level cap remains 75 and they can live their endless MMORPG groundhog day. The rest of us can move on and not be bothered with shouts of "get off my lawn" when we walk past.

Please let SE create this and put all the anti-abyssea in one place and strip them from all their empyrian and magian weapon, and AF3s and let them relive the glory old days that is FFXI Classic and be happy with the grind and challenges.

[Zaknafein]

Eh, level 30 entry really didn't matter as most of the people still playing had already leveled a few jobs to 75. If they didn't really understand how to play then, having to wait till 75 to enter abyssea wasnt going to teach them.

I mean less about people not knowing their jobs, and more about them having 10, 15, or in a lot of cases 20 95's now. The thing I liked when xp was a horrible grating ugly chore were people had a few jobs only. So they tended to take more pride in them. Nowadays players just burn up jobs like some sort of crack fiends. They get minimal gear on them, and run right to the next.

Really though that trend started with smn burns. Abyssea just exacerbated the problem.

[Kimble]

Eh, as long as they dont bring their bad jobs to things I do, I dont care, lol.

[Vold]

Eh, level 30 entry really didn't matter as most of the people still playing had already leveled a few jobs to 75. If they didn't really understand how to play then, having to wait till 75 to enter abyssea wasnt going to teach them.It mattered in the sense that it killed 6 man parties. I like leveling in Abyssea at low levels too but let's not pretend here, it killededed the hell out of the game pre end game and overall that's a bad thing because new folk can't get anywhere. They chug along on life support to the old 75 cap before someone gives them the time of day for Abyssea experience. As a veteran it's real easy to sit here and tell them to suck it up etc but it's never as easy as we like to think it is. There's a difference between newbies and returning players, by the way.

Without new players coming in there's no one to replace old players that quit. Maybe we don't care today because it don't effect us right now but what happens when the servers close because there's few left? Oh, oh shit it's too late now to welcome newbies. But none of that matters because SE decided it was a good idea to risk it or they didn't foresee entire alliances in Abyssea as is the case usually. So whatever. For right now the game is alive and kicking.

[Setsuai]

I do understand what they are saying about abyssea. Sure, we all loved it. It's incredibly fast experience, you don't have to grind solo to get your levels anymore, its low man friendly, etc. You go in, set your concoction of atmas and cruor buffs and you're almost unstoppable. Even the lower level players are getting in on the action. But the problem is IMO people are spending too much time in abyssea. The people who are taking in 30ish jobs to level them aren't taking the time to level them correctly and learn the job, creating a whole new slew of problems. Then you get players who are doing events with under leveled skills and no idea how their job even works. I won't say I'm the exception to the rule. I have leveled that way, and while I don't know all the ins and outs of the jobs I have leveled, I'm currently taking the time to learn from more experienced players. But not everyone wants to put in that kind of effort.
Another problem is that while people are comfy and warm in abyssea, outside, it's turned into a cruel, unforgiving place. Stuff you could normally do in abyssea, you can't do outside, because we've grown so accustomed to the abyssea system, we've forgotten all the work it takes to do endgame. Granted, stuff like storyline (CoP, ToAU, RoZ and the add-ons) and stuff that used to be end game like Nyzul, Limbus, and Sky Gods have become a cake walk, there's a whole new set of end game stuff that's gonna rip us apart because we're ill prepared for it. I give major points to those already doing VW and conquering that part of end game.
I don't know; it may just be me, but I'm afraid we've become soft because of Abyssea. I'm not saying we need to get rid of it. Like the producers said, they opened a can of worms with that one, and its one they'll never be able to close. It's too engrained in the players. I do think we need to stop spending most of our time in Abyssea though, and go back to the days when end game was alot of blood, sweat and tears. I think we'd feel more accomplished then.
Again, this is just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone. I apologize if it comes off that way.

[Kimble]

I'd hate speed leveling if there was actually things worth doing mid game. Sadly, there isnt.

[Melraen]

I personally found Abyssea to be really boring. I started the game a few months before it arrived, and had just gotten to like the style of partying in the game. Then the parties were slowly disappearing... ; ; By the time my BRD was level 60 I caved in and went to Abyssea, even though I really wanted to get my first 75 the same way everyone else did. I was wary of levelling up so fast, but I kinda wanted to spent time with my LS friends, since I was always left out of stuff because of my low level.

Well, at first it seemed okay, but it became just spamming March, trying to land Threnodies, which got resisted most of the time then, >.>; and watching people kill stuff. Slowly. Oh Goddess, so slooooooowly. It became "Stand way over there out of the way everyone, (player) will tank it and (player) heal him/her."

I liked the idea of a different dimension or whatever it is. And I thought the gear was good, but I'm still trying to get a full set for BRD, DRG and SCH, which are my only jobs...That's prolly my fault because I had to stop playing for a while and everyone stormed through the content while I was gone. XD

But in general, I found it to be really boring having an alliance but watching a couple of people duo everything. Recently I've been going through all the CoP and Zilart stuff, and I wonder why Abyssea didn't have such an awesome storyline! Even doing the Windurst missions was much more fun, and I've started Bastok's now. I've been doing some sea and sky with LS friends, and to me it's a lot more fun than Abyssea... But maybe that's because a lot of stuff is still new to me and everyone else had been doing it for years!

Anyways... That's my noob-style opinion. =3

Edit: Sorry, this so didn't look so big in the reply box! o.o;;

[Aldersyde]

I laughed hard reading this newest interview.

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=28416&storypage=1 The future looks so bright and rosey, aren't we all just so glad we got Tanaka back here?

When they have a success they deem it failure, this game is going to bleed players again soon. None of us are ready to go back to old FFXI now (taking years to get 1 piece of gear etc), and that is where we are headed.

Fun.

I'm not going to read 38 pages of pro and anti-abyssea arguments but I find it hilarious that they take the words of the complaining ffxi sado-masochists over the majority of the player base. I was going to quit before Abyssea came out, despite the excitement I felt hearing the news of the level cap rasing, because I couldn't take leveling a job to 99 the old fashioned way or playing sidegrade fantasy xi any longer.

Abyssea breathed new life into this game by streamlining the xp process for veterans that had done the same old shit before AND gave actual upgrades to gear. Voidwatch and similar content will snuff it out with horrendous, dare I say plain evil, loot distribution for mostly side grade and novelty item treasure.

[xbobx]

I am not sure FFXI would have survived without Abyessa, I saw so many old players come back after abyessa was released because the grind to catch up to other players wasn't as steep.

[Sparthos]

Don't worry, Walk of Echoes would have saved FFXI without that pesky Abyssean content.

[CrAZYVIC]

Here's the solution. Create a single (one will do) server for FFXI "Classic" and move all of the dinosaurs there, where the level cap remains 75 and they can live their endless MMORPG groundhog day. The rest of us can move on and not be bothered with shouts of "get off my lawn" when we walk past.


Will you come with me the Dinosaurs server ^_^? j/k

[saevel]

Don't worry, Walk of Echoes would have saved FFXI without that pesky Abyssean content.

Nahh definitely Voidwatch. People are so into having to "work" for their gear now. Before in that nasty abyssea they would get their item in only a couple of fights, such a tragedy. They were spared from the wonderful experience of fighting the same monster dozens of times with no drops. They definitely should protest being forced to endure abyssea and all their gear being obtained.

[Sparthos]

Devs: Abyssea bad, grind good. Me Tarzan, you Jane.

[Greatguardian]

This thread is much less fun with only people who have Brutal Earrings.

PPS: I've been a leader in an endgame shell for years, and while I'm antsy to get some real, scheduled, alliance size events on the board, I am in no way looking forward to world spawns, 1000+ NM grinds, and 0.0001% drop rates any more.

The Endgame community grew up. We can't all stay up till 4am camping fafnir like it's high school any more.

[Theytak]

Will you come with me the Dinosaurs server ^_^? j/k

CRAZYVIC I LOVE YOU <3<3<3

[Brolic]

This thread is much less fun with only people who have Brutal Earrings.

PPS: I've been a leader in an endgame shell for years, and while I'm antsy to get some real, scheduled, alliance size events on the board, I am in no way looking forward to world spawns, 1000+ NM grinds, and 0.0001% drop rates any more.

The Endgame community grew up. We can't all stay up till 4am camping fafnir like it's high school any more.
This shit right here.

[Sparthos]

This thread is much less fun with only people who have Brutal Earrings.

PPS: I've been a leader in an endgame shell for years, and while I'm antsy to get some real, scheduled, alliance size events on the board, I am in no way looking forward to world spawns, 1000+ NM grinds, and 0.0001% drop rates any more.

The Endgame community grew up. We can't all stay up till 4am camping fafnir like it's high school any more.

It's almost as if we have to have a gathering of former endgamers, sign an official document highlighting the grievances the previous system of endgame and our intentions to create a new endgame. We could call it the 'Declaration of Incompetence'.

In all seriousness, if SE is going back to 3hour windows and .01% drop rates, im done. It seems that Tanaka's intention is to destroy anything that seems fun under a banner of "balance".

This isn't HS where I can deal with 30 year olds fighting eachother over Ebodies, immature pre-pubescents yelling profanities cause mom 'n dad are asleep or being chewed out cause I decided to skip an event to do what I want done. Abyssea had its flaws but I'll be damned if it wasn't exciting to see the Berlin Walls of endgame crumble, people chill out for a change and some progress could be reached within a few days.

But who needs that crap?! Voidwatch is the new revolution in alliance combat. Behold as you recieve NINETY pieces of loot every battle!

[Winrie]

The game would have survived without abyssea many more years with content additions as normal and level cap increases, we are not masochistic for our preference in game play for a game we pay for and choose to invest time into. Games lifespan got murdered, and tons of working fun content was destroyed, keep disputing that if you wish, abyssea did not revolutionize ffxi, everyone likes abyssea no doubt, even I do, but it did more harm than good, I think people have a problem looking at the after effects of things par to how it made you feel.

[CrAZYVIC]

CRAZYVIC I LOVE YOU <3<3<3

I love you too my dear friend! I miss play LS events with you mate :_:

[Runespider]

PPS: I've been a leader in an endgame shell for years, and while I'm antsy to get some real, scheduled, alliance size events on the board, I am in no way looking forward to world spawns, 1000+ NM grinds, and 0.0001% drop rates any more.

The Endgame community grew up. We can't all stay up till 4am camping fafnir like it's high school any more.

This, this is the situation. If you have a playerbase that is continually cycling in new people like wow then fine but most of the hardcore kinda grew up with the game and can't do that stupid old mass time sink stuff anymore, or just don't want to. It worked in the past, it won't work now. Taking 1 year to get 1 piece of gear isn't acceptable now, especially since it's only cause they want to put out as little content as possible.

[Sparthos]

The game would have survived without abyssea many more years with content additions as normal and level cap increases, we are not masochistic for our preference in game play for a game we pay for and choose to invest time into. Games lifespan got murdered, and tons of working fun content was destroyed, keep disputing that if you wish, abyssea did not revolutionize ffxi, everyone likes abyssea no doubt, even I do, but it did more harm than good, I think people have a problem looking at the after effects of things par to how it made you feel. Btw how many of you that complain actually played before abyssea, cause a lot look like people who are handgliding on other peoples words and opinions without having true knowledge of the subject they are debating about, just curious~

The old content that has become junk since the cap was raised was doomed to become marginalized because... the cap got raised! Not because Abyssea happened.

Abyssea was a great tool to get people interested in this game again. It gave people an easy access point to get gear with significant improvements over previous sets, EXP alliances were fun and refreshing over the old 6-man "I want X classes onry" and NMs were fun, exciting and at times creative. Make no mistake, the game would be in a much worse place without Abyssea. Many people wouldn't have come back to XI, people would have been thoroughly driven off by Voidwatch 80-95 (its like VNMs, but with NINETY pieces of potential loot!) and we'd not be here having this conversation.

This isn't to say Abyssea didn't have serious flaws. Razed Ruins was just too good and poorly thought through, Heroes of Abyssea was utter overkill - brews for 200k? Dominion (AFK) OPs? Capping lights for you and infinite-RR3? Ridiculous. However, the overall CONCEPT of Abyssea was sound in that every couple of months you'd get a new (lol) zone, some trinkets to chase after on your own time, minimal drama, minimal headaches and plenty of visually engaging upgrades for your character.

I hate to toot my own horn but I did the endgame Tanaka seems to want to put back into place and it was terrible and I probably only survived as long as I did because of my leadership duties and what I felt were obligations to my shellmates in making sure events went smoothly.

I've climbed the PW mountaintop, beaten AV when it meant something, did Shinryu without brews @90, cleared SCNMs, capped Campaign rank, beat the Shadow Lord, camped Khimairas, beat Yilbegans, got Rank 10, got Captain, did hardmode CoP and have seen the promised land and I'll tell you this: Abyssea was closer to something ideal than what we had before. Oh, I have a Brutal Earring too, for what that's worth.

It may have been imperfect and I disliked the much of it once Heroes made everything Brew Fantasy XI but if you think the answer is to go backwards like SE is obsessed with doing via Voidwatch, you're going to see this game burn up in re-entry.

The answer is to learn from Abyssea and tweak future content to be balanced between the old XI and new XI and not to jam old XI down everyone's throats because you feel bad too many people had "fun" during Abyssea and that those expansions were a development abortion.

[Winrie]

This, this is the situation. If you have a playerbase that is continually cycling in new people like wow then fine but most of the hardcore kinda grew up with the game and can't do that stupid old mass time sink stuff anymore, or just don't want to. It worked in the past, it won't work now. Taking 1 year to get 1 piece of gear isn't acceptable now, especially since it's only cause they want to put out as little content as possible.

Do you even know what you're talking about? Now were cycling out playerbase and it took one year to get gear? I guess we forgot only hnm were super stingy and it wasn't even that bad, limbus Ect wru? It never took one year to get a piece of gear, if you got a ls and actually tried in the game, people who idled on forums complaining or sitting in town shout bickering and woe is me to their socials about how hard ffxi are the people who never got a foot in the door. But f**k land kings again, I want more shit like limbus sky sea Ect back, those types of endgame.

[Valonquar]

Until Voidwatch came along I didn't even have a reason to have an LS at all. There's practically nothing in Abyssea that can't be soloed or accomplished with a quick pick up group. I enjoyed the ability to pick up the game and put it down again at will.
Having to schedule endgame events and maintain a hardcore grind for weeks/months/years is just not very appealing for many anymore, myself included.
Honestly though, I think the reason the devs feel that Abyssea was a failure is because now we will be forever complaining that we aren't as powerful as we were in the level 76~95 days inside Abyssea.

[Arcari]

This thread is much less fun with only people who have Brutal Earrings.

PPS: I've been a leader in an endgame shell for years, and while I'm antsy to get some real, scheduled, alliance size events on the board, I am in no way looking forward to world spawns, 1000+ NM grinds, and 0.0001% drop rates any more.

The Endgame community grew up. We can't all stay up till 4am camping fafnir like it's high school any more.

This thread should've been autolocked from this point, because this is the best damn thing we're going to get out of it.

[Brolic]

I'm perfectly content with voidwatch, the un-shared treasure pool is kind of a bummer. But when compared to weekends spent\wasted camping timmy for a dragonblood or holding kiting nq behemoth for 8hrs to keep it out of jp time it's like a blowjob from jessica alba

[xbobx]

I don't mind challenging battles but the days of the 18 player alliances are over. The days of the time sinks are over. The thing I hated the most of this game is spending a lot of time in game and getting nothing out of it. There were many things in the game that felt like you were making no progress.

I liked nyzul, you got somewhere, and the drop rate on the gear wasn't that bad, your party of 6 could deck themselves out by putting time into it, but not a stupid amount of time.

but on that note, this is probably my last month. they finally fix pup and I am going to leave, go figure. Whether I like the game or not is irrelevant at this point, I just don't think SE deserves our money, especially not 12.99. If they dropped the price to 5.99 which seems reasonable considering the support we get now compared to before then I may reconsidered. But I will not do the time sinks every again.

Watch, even the more casual friendly trial of magians (elemental paths) allowing casual players to obtain good weapons, i guarantee they will mess that up by putting the final upgrade items in non-casual settings.

[Winrie]

You know to clarify I agree abyssea helped the game out with a breath of fresh air, but it went too far, I'm sorry but replacing everything was horrible, replacing ls organization with 3 buds or 1 guy and his mule is not fun after a point, and when you want to break away it's pointless considering everything is crap now outside the red skied reskins. People did come back cause of abyssea yet Many left as well, so who is anyone to say what benefitted the playerbase, only se knows this for a fact. I do know however my friends list decreased near the second installment of abyssea, rose back up for the last and maintained itself for a bit now it's dropped more than the first time it did. Aby was a great twist but I'm sorry it pretty much closed the book, ofc se can fix this but that entirely up to them.

[Sharnak]

I really think "Mr.T" who take care XI now (You can find his excellent work with XIV original state). Try bring back 2003 FFXI, that you need spend 1 hr for gather party, and take year to get 1 gear, so can keep you play long long. (I guess XIV original state is not teach anything and too bad that Abby is there so he has no chance to bring back old ways of party that you spend 6 hr for get 2-3 lv - just if you lucky and get good party, and may 3 hr for 1 lv if you got some bad pt - or 30 min pt since thy use too long for seeking and no time to play anymore, or they just keep afk - or 10 min pt with DELV you.)

These day it's not 2003 that people will spend whole day for seeking or need to spend year just for 1 assasin amlet (you will get special content on this events sometime - DRAMA, LOST FRIEND, ECT), If SE want ppl play longer, MAKE A LOT MORE CONTENT! that addict ppl not just make it harder to get item cuz it's super rare to drop. IT WAS SHOW HOW LAZY DELVELOPER WAS!.

Sorry for any impolite comment, Many of my firend stop playing FFXI right now and what thy say is "VWNM is super boring..." I'm totally agreed.

You can't find it's fun , 1st fight oh it's excitement, no drop oh just bad luck. 5 fight, oh my god how bad luck me. 10 fight omg i hate this nm badly but i want it's shining gear so bad i will endure it. after hundred fight on many same nm again and again and give you just junk. what is the point of fun.? it's just tortune.

WAKE UP FROM UR OLD DREAM, IT'LL NEVER COME BACK.

[Winrie]

I don't mind challenging battles but the days of the 18 player alliances are over. The days of the time sinks are over. The thing I hated the most of this game is spending a lot of time in game and getting nothing out of it. There were many things in the game that felt like you were making no progress.

I liked nyzul, you got somewhere, and the drop rate on the gear wasn't that bad, your party of 6 could deck themselves out by putting time into it, but not a stupid amount of time.

but on that note, this is probably my last month. they finally fix pup and I am going to leave, go figure. Whether I like the game or not is irrelevant at this point, I just don't think SE deserves are money, especially not 12.99. If they dropped the price to 5.99 which seems reasonable considering the support we get now compared to before then I may reconsidered. But I will not do the time sinks every again.

Watch, even the more casual friendly trial of magians (elemental paths) were casual friendly allowing casual players to obtain good weapons, i guarantee they will mess that up by putting the final upgrade items in non-casual settings.

Nyzul was never decked out gear, nyzul if anything was casual equivalents to good gear which was perfect considering it never screwed anything over. And I hope final weapons will be difficult, this game needs diversity of player back and a sense of accomplishment that is no longer there for achievements.

[Sparthos]

I know it benefit the base because servers and zones were packed (relative to the dismal '09 showing), life was breathed into the shout channel and overall community sites started to buzz again. Are they right now? Nope, back to dormancy they go save the 'test server' results.

With or without Abyssea, those old events were doomed. Chalk it up to SE deciding to raise the level cap.

[Runespider]

Do you even know what you're talking about? Now were cycling out playerbase and it took one year to get gear?

Cycling in new players means younger new players coming in that can do the stupid mass time sink again, most of us that play now can't/don't want to go back to that.


I guess we forgot only hnm were super stingy and it wasn't even that bad, limbus Ect wru? It never took one year to get a piece of gear

When you join a group you/set one up you don't get every drop yourself, you are in a waiting list. Dynamis, took me over a year to get rdm af2 hat, many waited far far longer. Limbus? It took me well over a year and a half to get the 3 bits of homam I wanted going twice a week and I gave up on body cause we had horrible luck with it and I was last on the list anyway. Salvage? took me nearly 2 years to finish Morrigans body doing 3-4 runs a week and at least half of those killing the rats for me since it was my Tier 1 want. HNM not that bad? Maybe you were in a hardcore botting ls (or never did them till recently). 5-6 months to get my aces helm, about 18 months to get my eb and dalmy (camping them every possible HQ day), over 2 years to get my heralds gaiters camping it every time the windows were open (or at least getting tod). Most people will say the same, unless you lucked out or joined a shell that was capped on gear.

Yeah you're the one that has no idea what they're on about.

[Brolic]

Valhalla pieces, ridills could easily take someone over a year to get. Lets not even mention Drings and silver sea drops

[xbobx]

Nyzul was never decked out gear, nyzul if anything was casual equivalents to good gear which was perfect considering it never screwed anything over. And I hope final weapons will be difficult, this game needs diversity of player back and a sense of accomplishment that is no longer there for achievements.

Trial of magian elemental path was created to help casual players obtain something worth while if they put the time in, since they dont really add much in weapons anymore. Why do you seem to always want to punish casual players? Why should something like trails of magian force a casual player into some time sink 18 man battles. Those harder content are for the emp weapons. Those people made a choice to get the best weapon and work for it. The casual player choose to go the casual path for good weapons but no where near the best. They should not be punished for that. Adn if they are, they will leave and you will be sitting, crying in a corner wondering why the servers were shut down.

It is a game, if I want a sense of accomplishment, I look outside the game, to things in life that actually have real meaning. A digital piece of gear has no meaning.

[Arcon]

Oh you people are so cute. Will any of the Abyssea defenders, just for one second, stop pretending they're arguing against someone and present one reason why they believe the development team can keep Abyssea-like content up? Please? No? I thought so. Have fun confirming each other's views on Abyssea another five hundred times in here.

Abyssea did kill old events. It wasn't just the level cap. It was mainly the gear from Abyssea that made old gear completely obsolete. I still did Limbus, Dyna, Sea, Sky, Einherjar, etc. with whomever was interested. But guess what, people weren't interested, and not because it was too easy (hell, isn't that why everyone loves Abyssea?), but because there was no incentive to do so. If you wanna pretend that's not the case, go ahead, I'm fairly sure most people in here already know how to put their fingers into their ears and sing, to keep the bad voices out.

On a side note: the Fafnir at 4AM was not meant for everyone. It was meant for people who were awake at 4AM. You made it your own personal mission to camp it at 4AM. It's precisely why HNMs have a 21~24 repop window and not a 23:45 repop window, so it changes timezones after a while.

[Winrie]

Cycling in new players means younger new players coming in that can do the stupid mass time sink again, most of us that play now can't/don't want to go back to that.



When you join a group you/set one up you don't get every drop yourself, you are in a waiting list. Dynamis, took me over a year to get rdm af2 hat, many waited far far longer. Limbus? It took me well over a year and a half to get the 3 bits of homam I wanted going twice a week and I gave up on body cause we had horrible luck with it and I was last on the list anyway. Salvage? took me nearly 2 years to finish Morrigans body doing 3-4 runs a week and at least half of those killing the rats for me since it was my Tier 1 want. HNM not that bad? Maybe you were in a hardcore botting ls (or never did them till recently). 5-6 months to get my aces helm, about 18 months to get my eb and dalmy (camping them every day after 3rd hq spawn), over 2 years to get my heralds gaiters camping it every time the windows were open (or at least getting tod). Most people will say the same, unless you lucked out or joined a shell that was capped on gear.

Yeah you're the one that has no idea what they're on about.

Oh I see, because you had a touch of horrible luck that means I don't know what I'm talking about? Your experience dictates se's entire game and every players individual experience? I see where this discussion is ganna go with someone as dense minded as you. Your plight is a simple fix, you had the wrong group, a human fault not a game fault. Oh as I said, woe is me attitudes, fanks buddy

[Winrie]

Oh you people are so cute. Will any of the Abyssea defenders, just for one second, stop pretending they're arguing against someone and present one reason why they believe the development team can keep Abyssea-like content up? Please? No? I thought so. Have fun confirming each other's views on Abyssea another five hundred times in here.

Abyssea did kill old events. It wasn't just the level cap. It was mainly the gear from Abyssea that made old gear completely obsolete. I still did Limbus, Dyna, Sea, Sky, Einherjar, etc. with whomever was interested. But guess what, people weren't interested, and not because it was too easy (hell, isn't that why everyone loves Abyssea?), but because there was no incentive to do so. If you wanna pretend that's not the case, go ahead, I'm fairly sure most people in here already know how to put their fingers into their ears and sing, to keep the bad voices out.

On a side note: the Fafnir at 4AM was not meant for everyone. It was meant for people who were awake at 4AM. You made it your own personal mission to camp it at 4AM. It's precisely why HNMs have a 21~24 repop window and not a 23:45 repop window, so it changes timezones after a while.

FFS thank you, a voice of reason and intelligence

[Runespider]

Oh I see, because you had a touch of horrible luck that means I don't know what I'm talking about? Your experience dictates se's entire game and every players individual experience? I see where this discussion is ganna go with someone as dense minded as you. Your plight is a simple fix, you had the wrong group, a human fault not a game fault. Oh as I said, woe is me attitudes, fanks buddy

Almost everyone was the same on certain bits of gear, why do you think the events persisted for so many years? Everyone just did them for fun?


you had the wrong group

Joining a heavy botting LS did indeed make gear come far quicker, that wasn't by game design though that was the players fighting against it.

[Sparthos]

Oh you people are so cute. Will any of the Abyssea defenders, just for one second, stop pretending they're arguing against someone and present one reason why they believe the development team can keep Abyssea-like content up? Please? No? I thought so. Have fun confirming each other's views on Abyssea another five hundred times in here.

I think I said before multiple times that the content doesn't need to exactly be Abyssea with a new set of zones moreso Abyssea in the sense that every won battle is a step towards getting something. If you're excuse is that SE can't keep up with releasing content then you've still got to explain why they chose the stall 'n wall method rather than create a bunch of good items, use said items as bait to repeat Voidwatch hundreds of times and watch as players enjoy/hate repeating said content while you work on new content for the upcoming VU.

One method has been proven to be the worst method to be imposed upon players whereas the other has been proven to be universally lauded as reasonable and worth the time investment if the gear is worth it.


Abyssea did kill old events. It wasn't just the level cap. It was mainly the gear from Abyssea that made old gear completely obsolete. I still did Limbus, Dyna, Sea, Sky, Einherjar, etc. with whomever was interested. But guess what, people weren't interested, and not because it was too easy (hell, isn't that why everyone loves Abyssea?), but because there was no incentive to do so. If you wanna pretend that's not the case, go ahead, I'm fairly sure most people in here already know how to put their fingers into their ears and sing, to keep the bad voices out.

And like I said before, if Abyssea never existed the content that would have taken its place would have had to void the old gear because there was nowhere to go but up with regards to stats. What were you gonna do? Sidegrade content from 75-95? What would be the point of getting new gear then? Either way, the level cap spelled doom for the old content because the added levels coupled with emphasis on new pieces meant old pieces were going to plummet in value.



On a side note: the Fafnir at 4AM was not meant for everyone. It was meant for people who were awake at 4AM. You made it your own personal mission to camp it at 4AM. It's precisely why HNMs have a 21~24 repop window and not a 23:45 repop window, so it changes timezones after a while.

People did it anyway. The developers should have noticed this had gone out of control and stepped in years ago to rectify the issue as stewards of the game. What did they do? Said 'oh well, less work for me' and let a bad situation get worse.

Stop making excuses for what was clearly a conscious decision by the devs to ignore botting and backstabbing.

[Mirage]

And at this point, im going to say the burden of proof is on you to back your claims up.

http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/35992.aspx

Lineage 1 is unavailable in the US.
Lineage 2 is currently using a f2p model
Dofus uses both traditional subscription and f2p, hard to tell how many players are actually paying for it. Also, it is a 2d flash-based game, lol.

This most likely places FF11 in 3rd or 4th place, depending a bit on how many Dofus players are actually paying, and also depending on if their player count has increased or decreased since 2009.

[Brolic]

Oh you people are so cute. Will any of the Abyssea defenders, just for one second, stop pretending they're arguing against someone and present one reason why they believe the development team can keep Abyssea-like content up? Please? No? I thought so. Have fun confirming each other's views on Abyssea another five hundred times in here.

Abyssea did kill old events. It wasn't just the level cap. It was mainly the gear from Abyssea that made old gear completely obsolete. I still did Limbus, Dyna, Sea, Sky, Einherjar, etc. with whomever was interested. But guess what, people weren't interested, and not because it was too easy (hell, isn't that why everyone loves Abyssea?), but because there was no incentive to do so. If you wanna pretend that's not the case, go ahead, I'm fairly sure most people in here already know how to put their fingers into their ears and sing, to keep the bad voices out.

On a side note: the Fafnir at 4AM was not meant for everyone. It was meant for people who were awake at 4AM. You made it your own personal mission to camp it at 4AM. It's precisely why HNMs have a 21~24 repop window and not a 23:45 repop window, so it changes timezones after a while.

I love when people quick to call abyssea easy mode, and yet they cant manage to complete some af3+2 sets nor any empyreans.

[Sharnak]

I think the fact is "Abyssea may kill Old content", but i really feel if SE still keep going content like VWNM it's will kill future of FFXI.

[hiko]

abyssea was perfectly designed for what it should have been: 3-4month content.
the fail is SE take too much time to go 90-99,
cap80 2010-06
cap 85 2010-09
cap90 2010-12
cap95 2011-09 .
+empyrean set+2/weapon "too" strong.

[Seiowan]

Let me begin this post by saying, I really don't care much for Voidwatch. There I said it. Flame away, VW lovers. I think it's a ridiculous time sink which does very little towards actually getting you any of the gear you covet, leaves many players walking away from fights feeling dissatisfied and forces you to repeat the same fights ad infinitum in the hopes that eventually something will drop that you can actually use. That's before I even mention the tedium of trying to get your abyssite to actually change colour to get the right tier.

That Square-Enix consider Abyssea to be a failing on their part, despite it's massive success, is proof that they are largely blinkered to our opinions. We might as well be shouting at a wall. We've gone from fairly obtainable scrolls for mages to having ridiculously low drop rates on them in a high level event which can only be done once an hour, and only if you're lucky enough to find space (Read: Walk of Echoes). We've been hit by the truly incomprehensible drop system for Voidwatch which leaves players getting a handful of nothing virtually every run. And despite huge opposition, they're still set on giving away Scholar's only unique proc spells to anyone willing to sub it.

Sometimes it seems that despite their more vocal nature, they've reverted back to the old days of doing their own thing and to hell with anyone who questions their wisdom. Creatures evolve to survive, and so must MMO's. Abyssea was a success because it gave everyone a chance to obtain useful items, and share in the enjoyment. That SE could even remotely consider it a failing, I truly despair.

[Arcon]

One method has been proven to be the worst method to be imposed upon players whereas the other has been proven to be universally lauded as reasonable and worth the time investment if the gear is worth it.

Proven to be the worst? If that was the case, why did you keep playing for years? And if everyone hates it why are you arguing against other people in this thread? Shouldn't everyone agree with you?

Abyssea universally lauded? Are we living in the same fucking reality? Did the 3.7 billion of people ragequitting over Abyssea and creating threads complaining about it and the game and easymode and SE's face not tip you off that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't the most welcome of additions to this game? Did you hear anyone at all complain like this about any other expansion ever released (not counting the addons, they practically aren't even in the game, and still not as unpopular as Abyssea)?

Again, are you just ignoring the fact that FFXI's population is lower than ever? Or are you saying that that's just VW's fault? In which case you're stupid because Abyssea is still around and if people would love it nearly as much as you're saying, they would be playing that. And if you're saying that players were leaving even before Abyssea (which was true), then how come Abyssea didn't stop it? It did stall it, that's true. Some people even came back. For a few months. Which is exactly how long it took to plow through all the new content. Then most of those people (and plenty of others) quit again.


And like I said before, if Abyssea never existed the content that would have taken its place would have had to void the old gear because there was nowhere to go but up with regards to stats. What were you gonna do? Sidegrade content from 75-95? What would be the point of getting new gear then? Either way, the level cap spelled doom for the old content because the added levels coupled with emphasis on new pieces meant old pieces were going to plummet in value.

No one argues that (apart from some butthurt relic holders). But they most definitely could have gone about it differently. Do you remember your first reaction to the announcement of Empy+2 gear? No? I do, here it is: "HOLY FUCKING SHITBALLS!!" Guess how I know that? Because that was everyone's reaction. And it wasn't because the gear was better. It was because it was orders of magnitude better. People weren't even mentioning shitballs at salvage gear, even though it was amazing (well, maybe Ares's Cuirass). That's how upgrades are supposed to be. Noticeable, but not massive. Otherwise you end up with the example I mentioned a few pages ago.


People did it anyway. The developers should have noticed this had gone out of control and stepped in years ago to rectify the issue as stewards of the game. What did they do? Said 'oh well, less work for me' and let a bad situation get worse.

Hell yeah, people did it anyway. And if someone camps a mob 24 hours a day they damn well deserved that Ridill. If people have really grown up now, then you don't have to worry about Japanese people stealing your mobs in your primetime.


Stop making excuses for what was clearly a conscious decision by the devs to ignore botting and backstabbing.

I hate hippies. With a passion.

Botting? Backstabbing? What the fuck are you talking about? HNMs, that's it. How did people bot and backstab in Dynamis, Einherjar, sea, sky, Limbus, Salvage, Nyzul Isle, etc.?

But let's stick to HNMs for a second. Botting, yes, sadly you'll never get rid of bots. There was nothing the development team could have done. Or do you know something I don't? Tell me how to make botting go away, please. What was that? Make kings KS99 popped? Great idea. We love you.

Backstabbing? As in... MPKing people who claimed your mob? GMable. Enmity stealing to flail them? GMable (and preventable, but still). Ninjalotting? Not preventable by the devs, but by party leaders. Didn't pass after 4min? Kick. Easy as that. Ninjalotting was never possible if the leader paid attention.

So what exactly was your point again?

[Sharnak]

Proven to be the worst? If that was the case, why did you keep playing for years? And if everyone hates it why are you arguing against other people in this thread? Shouldn't everyone agree with you?

Abyssea universally lauded? Are we living in the same fucking reality? Did the 3.7 billion of people ragequitting over Abyssea and creating threads complaining about it and the game and easymode and SE's face not tip you off that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't the most welcome of additions to this game? Did you hear anyone at all complain like this about any other expansion ever released (not counting the addons, they practically aren't even in the game, and still not as unpopular as Abyssea)?

Again, are you just ignoring the fact that FFXI's population is lower than ever? Or are you saying that that's just VW's fault? In which case you're stupid because Abyssea is still around and if people would love it nearly as much as you're saying, they would be playing that. And if you're saying that players were leaving even before Abyssea (which was true), then how come Abyssea didn't stop it? It did stall it, that's true. Some people even came back. For a few months. Which is exactly how long it took to plow through all the new content. Then most of those people (and plenty of others) quit again.



No one argues that (apart from some butthurt relic holders). But they most definitely could have gone about it differently. Do you remember your first reaction to the announcement of Empy+2 gear? No? I do, here it is: "HOLY FUCKING SHITBALLS!!" Guess how I know that? Because that was everyone's reaction. And it wasn't because the gear was better. It was because it was orders of magnitude better. People weren't even mentioning shitballs at salvage gear, even though it was amazing (well, maybe Ares's Cuirass). That's how upgrades are supposed to be. Noticeable, but not massive. Otherwise you end up with the example I mentioned a few pages ago.



Hell yeah, people did it anyway. And if someone camps a mob 24 hours a day they damn well deserved that Ridill. If people have really grown up now, then you don't have to worry about Japanese people stealing your mobs in your primetime.



I hate hippies. With a passion.

Botting? Backstabbing? What the fuck are you talking about? HNMs, that's it. How did people bot and backstab in Dynamis, Einherjar, sea, sky, Limbus, Salvage, Nyzul Isle, etc.?

But let's stick to HNMs for a second. Botting, yes, sadly you'll never get rid of bots. There was nothing the development team could have done. Or do you know something I don't? Tell me how to make botting go away, please. What was that? Make kings KS99 popped? Great idea. We love you.

Backstabbing? As in... MPKing people who claimed your mob? GMable. Enmity stealing to flail them? GMable (and preventable, but still). Ninjalotting? Not preventable by the devs, but by party leaders. Didn't pass after 4min? Kick. Easy as that. Ninjalotting was never possible if the leader paid attention.

So what exactly was your point again?


Yes may Abby is too easy so they can get anything they want too easy, but it's still fun to play. You no need hrs for party shout, no need tons alli to fight for one item (Is that not suit for FFXI this time, when player less than used to?) And any thing will go down that is fact, you can't hope ppl keep Abby til now, even dyna when ppl get what thy want thy will end up lost attend on it. That was fact.

But it's also have another fact. If VWNM was fun, you can stop ppl form lost intention on FFXI since it newest content now. Actually I have a lot of my friend just stop playing (not yet quit) and all them say since they nothing to do since VWNM is boring. they all play this game since server start and own almost gear that they want form any content even relic and emp. Abby never make them feel boring fast like this, that is also fact.

Please notice that I not say about shinny reward form VWNM, but I must say VWNM system itself is boring, It's may tough NM that may challange player, but time for form 18 ppl alliance on this game was over, You really hard to find it's fun to play with random ppl more than your friend, exp all ppl just want it's reward. And nowadays I don't think much player will have 18 alliance friend in list all time.About drop rate that developer refuse to adjust ,that super low just for keep ppl repeat it since it's most easy way to work on it. Please you may fun to fight NM for sometime but not tons time, it's not fun anymore just tortune. Instead SE must do some work, may let's ppl get point on win, collect some of item to trade for gear, so will make each fight is forwording, not just step on ground and keep buy lotto. So that y i say this system was make on laziness of developer. so it's reflect to how content being.

No need to blame just aby, VWNM, no party stay forever, every game will end soon or later. actually FFXI going down since abby not yet release, and back up alive a bit during aby just relase, and i must say since ppl full fill their abby, and no any more good thing to do so it's going down again. Is that not fact?

[Olor]

It mattered in the sense that it killed 6 man parties. I like leveling in Abyssea at low levels too but let's not pretend here, it killededed the hell out of the game pre end game and overall that's a bad thing because new folk can't get anywhere. They chug along on life support to the old 75 cap before someone gives them the time of day for Abyssea experience. As a veteran it's real easy to sit here and tell them to suck it up etc but it's never as easy as we like to think it is. There's a difference between newbies and returning players, by the way.


regular six man parties were a luxury only for the chosen few jobs. They were always dead for jobs like bst, blu, pup and smn. As someone who spent a year painstakingly soloing blu to 48 back in the "good old days" I can confidently say that the new set up with GoV alliances is way way way way way way way friendlier to noobies than the old six man party era ever was.

[xbobx]

As you stated, people need to come to terms with the fact this game is done. SE is on autopilot. Many of the new gear is trial of magian grinds it seems. Take all that old equipment you had, and grind out out. Maybe in a year you will be able to have all five nyzul askar pieces upgraded, etc etc.

The game was getting close to death before abyessa came out, ti breathed new life into the game for a bit, even brought a lot of people back. They finished that content and want more, they are not getting anything more so they leaving.

I am almost seeing an argument from some of you that the way to do content is to drag that content out making it take years to get a reward, that way the onus is off the developer to actually develop new and exciting content.

Personally I would rather see things like abyessa come and go, where the developers are constantly adding more content like that, where you jump in, in six months you done all you need and you are on the next exciting content.

But what we normally get, here is an expansion, here is your gear, we plan on it taking you 2 years for you to get, so. we will offer 5 missions, about 3 hours worth each 3 months, drag drag drag. Hey look how hard the game is, because time=hard.

The game needs to keep the pace going or it is done, that will not be done by going back to the old ways, if they do, the game will not last till the end of 2012. Very few people i know want to go back to that, most will quit. You guys celebrating are in the minority.

[Olor]

xbobx has it right... I would have never come back without abyssea, and if the trend is towards crappy drop rates and alliance only content, I don't think I will put any more crysta in my account.

[Luvbunny]

That Square-Enix consider Abyssea to be a failing on their part, despite it's massive success, is proof that they are largely blinkered to our opinions. We might as well be shouting at a wall. We've gone from fairly obtainable scrolls for mages to having ridiculously low drop rates on them in a high level event which can only be done once an hour, and only if you're lucky enough to find space (Read: Walk of Echoes). We've been hit by the truly incomprehensible drop system for Voidwatch which leaves players getting a handful of nothing virtually every run. And despite huge opposition, they're still set on giving away Scholar's only unique proc spells to anyone willing to sub it.

Sometimes it seems that despite their more vocal nature, they've reverted back to the old days of doing their own thing and to hell with anyone who questions their wisdom. Creatures evolve to survive, and so must MMO's. Abyssea was a success because it gave everyone a chance to obtain useful items, and share in the enjoyment. That SE could even remotely consider it a failing, I truly despair.

VW is not too terrible - it's not any worse than trying to get Aby gears,VW is harder because you need 18 people to do it, so more organization and time wasting waiting for everyone just like the old days. But yeah, they should definitely improve it so that you can do it with 10-18 people. Walk of Echoes is fun, you can log in and go for it - too bad it's pretty dead again, unless you do it on weekends or during japan prime time, which is daytime for US. Scroll drops are awful and should be rectified - expect nothing will change - they just do not want to deal with what the customers actually demand.

Scholar spells being sub-able is terrible ideas, one of the worst they can come up so far - just to show that Tanaka being you know, himself, screw players - take it as it is, or as we like to do, give him the middle finger and stop paying.

For some people, Abyssea is too easy and they got everything they wanted in 2 months or less - for the majority, it is fun rewarding content that they can log in and play and keep doing it over and over (limited to your stones) and feel good about their jobs.

[Luvbunny]

It is a game, if I want a sense of accomplishment, I look outside the game, to things in life that actually have real meaning. A digital piece of gear has no meaning.

Well said Bob, a game should be about fun, something you can log in and enjoy, and play nice with others. A little grind here and there is fine - and Abyssea is very good in giving you a little at a time but never all at once so that you keep coming back for more again and again.

The good thing about Voidwatch is that the gears never really replace AF3+1 or +2 and just a nice compliments and something different to wear (and show offs). So if you did not get it for the 20th time, you can just stop doing it but it won't affect your gameplay. They did right with magian trials but completely drop the bomb at the last few trials.

[Sharnak]

Well said Bob, a game should be about fun, something you can log in and enjoy, and play nice with others. A little grind here and there is fine - and Abyssea is very good in giving you a little at a time but never all at once so that you keep coming back for more again and again.

The good thing about Voidwatch is that the gears never really replace AF3+1 or +2 and just a nice compliments and something different to wear (and show offs). So if you did not get it for the 20th time, you can just stop doing it but it won't affect your gameplay. They did right with magian trials but completely drop the bomb at the last few trials.

You remind me about trial =w=,
Trial 2339: Apademak's Horns x75
Trial 2772: Heavy Metal Plates x1500
Form 75 horn to 1500 plate! even it's tradable.
What will coming next? 500,000 of something?
I'm not wonder at all under Mr.T's politics.

What he plan is just "How much i can tortune player as long as possible." Bring someone else that listen to player comment be producer of XI pls. Unless SE just want to move all player form XI to XIV so sent him to tortuen player who still fun to play XI.

[Luvbunny]

Don't worry, Walk of Echoes would have saved FFXI without that pesky Abyssean content.

I wish this was true - Walk of Echoes is pretty dead, again - I do like it, and it is great fun thing to do and remind me of Phantasy Star Online. As it is now, it feels rather half ass jobs, just like everything else in the game. There are MANY older contents that sound very promising but was done poorly - and yet they do not bother to even tweak and improve it. Moblin Maze is amazing idea on paper, but having to do one zone over and over gets old - and not having good drops also stop people from playing. The same can be said for Assaults, Nyzul, and Einherjar - same areas over and over with restriction.

[Sharnak]

Don't worry, Walk of Echoes would have saved FFXI without that pesky Abyssean content.

When is last time you go play Walk of Echoes? Even on peak time of JP I still found that I can't go in conflux that I want, just can follow ppl to do any conflux which ever got enoup ppl to win. I just see it's less and less ppl each days pass.

[Luvbunny]

What he plan is just "How much i can tortune player as long as possible." Bring someone else that listen to player comment be producer of XI pls. Unless SE just want to move all player form XI to XIV so sent him to tortuen player who still fun to play XI.

I think this is exactly the plan. Abyssea probably was developed as a "swan song" to FFXI, and they were hoping people will be tired of it and ready to move on. What they did not expect was how big of a turd FF14 turned out to be. SE had to shame Tanaka, forced him to publicly apologize, shuffled him back to XI and moved the star director Yoshi to FF14 to save that original IP before it's too late. Now FF14 is going in the right direction, and they are ready to burn version 1 (the huge steaming pile of tranny hot mess) and relaunch with version 2 next year. If you look at the new timeline for XI, and now the Tanaturd back at XI, expect for him to kill this game in a year so that people will move to 14. But after experiencing how badly they handle XI over the past 10 years - I won't bother playing 14 even if it's served in gold platter with all the nice trimming. I'll go back play their offline games that can be completed in 60 hours with no drama - looking forward for FFXIII-2!!

Also notice how we are not getting any kind of respond from the developers on this thread. You can bet they are still awaiting for the "comment" to be approved by SE lawyers and PR dept - and they are figuring out how to spin this interview as something "positive" and "encouraging". Tanaturd probably got some stern lecture on how to give interviews and answering questions. There is no comparison when you read FF14 letter from developers, and have to read FF11 insight of new future... Though this probably their intention all along - make it so that FF11 looks really bad, so people will have something to look forward for 14.

[Arcon]

Don't worry, Walk of Echoes would have saved FFXI without that pesky Abyssean content.


I wish this was true - Walk of Echoes is pretty dead, again [..]


When is last time you go play Walk of Echoes? [..]

That was sarcasm.

[Sharnak]

That was sarcasm.

If like that i apologize for misunderstood. m(_ _)m

[Luvbunny]

That was sarcasm.

:) The point is that there are plenty of non-abyssea content that can be updated, refreshed, revised, retweaked and revamped to bring back some interests. From sky, sea, limbus, all the mini contents of ToAU, existing BCNMs, etc.. They did do some refresh on dyna and walk of echoes - but all the effort was a bit of half ass job. Can they revamp these older content to be on par with Abyssea? Probably - but they just do not want to do it - or not have enough manpower. Yet they continue to invest on FF14 and put as little as possible to 11, the one IP that has people PAYING monthly fees (and let's not mention the whole Click and Buy fiasco over the summer....).

[Sharnak]

:) The point is that there are plenty of non-abyssea content that can be updated, refreshed, revised, retweaked and revamped to bring back some interests. From sky, sea, limbus, all the mini contents of ToAU, existing BCNMs, etc.. They did do some refresh on dyna and walk of echoes - but all the effort was a bit of half ass job. Can they revamp these older content to be on par with Abyssea? Probably - but they just do not want to do it - or not have enough manpower. Yet they continue to invest on FF14 and put as little as possible to 11, the one IP that has people PAYING monthly fees (and let's not mention the whole Click and Buy fiasco over the summer....).

Actually I hope more that will no any old content revamp under Mr.T production.
I see it more than enough on WoE revamp round 2. I must say it's fun to play with many ppl like campaign. But it's ignore the fact
that It's require too much ppl to beat it, it's incredible for lowman and end up will not enough ppl to do.

It's already happen when WoE first release, if you can recall, when start got many ppl do it and it's lower and lower until it's almost totally empty. So it's got round 1 revamp, make it that you can go in and farm some coin for make fake emp. at least even you not win
but you still can spend some little time to farm it. So it's may not much higher player intention since moslty play intent to do real emp more than fake one.

So now it's round 2 revamp on WoE, now under Mr.T, how to make it? easy! put some useful item, scroll on them!, make it's drop rate super rare, so can lure ppl do it for a while until thy got it (He not even understand word "gurantee drop" I'm so sure that gurantee drop 1 all type random coin each run will not destroy much on his tortune plan even i'm not want any of it). Sound like very old plan become once use again, almost same to 1st version WoE just change form dyna like with drop pool keep drop on kill (which too easy in Mr.T idea) change it to open chest on end.
So it's call revamp... oh I must say got auto reraise is may best thing we got form this revamp.

So I start to fear to see anymore old content "Revamp" on his hand really.

[Luvbunny]

Well I was hoping more revamp in the style of Abyssea where you can get little content here and there that can be accumulated for bigger payoffs at the end - but everyone get a little of something. They can also do it as point systems or currency that you can trade off for items of your choice - which exists on the older content (example: Assaults, Nyzul, Einherjar, Moblin Maze, etc). Knowing Tanaturd, he will make the points impossibly high so that everyone will have to play for years and years for very little reward. It does not matter anymore, Tanaturd mission is to burn FFXI to the ground so that everyone quit and move on to FF14 - I think so far he is doing a great job with this little "insightful" interviews giving us a taste of what is to come.

[svengalis]

:) The point is that there are plenty of non-abyssea content that can be updated, refreshed, revised, retweaked and revamped to bring back some interests. From sky, sea, limbus, all the mini contents of ToAU, existing BCNMs, etc.. They did do some refresh on dyna and walk of echoes - but all the effort was a bit of half ass job. Can they revamp these older content to be on par with Abyssea? Probably - but they just do not want to do it - or not have enough manpower. Yet they continue to invest on FF14 and put as little as possible to 11, the one IP that has people PAYING monthly fees (and let's not mention the whole Click and Buy fiasco over the summer....).

They are doing a revamp for Limbus, Nyzul, Savage etc... they have already said it and it won't come for another 5 months or so.

[Luvbunny]

The people who are taking in 30ish jobs to level them aren't taking the time to level them correctly and learn the job, creating a whole new slew of problems. Then you get players who are doing events with under leveled skills and no idea how their job even works.

Another problem is that while people are comfy and warm in abyssea, outside, it's turned into a cruel, unforgiving place. Stuff you could normally do in abyssea, you can't do outside, because we've grown so accustomed to the abyssea system, we've forgotten all the work it takes to do endgame.

You do realize that 6 man party style never goes away and it is made much much sweeter and rewarding with the huge xp bonus and auto repeat FoV/GoV and exp ring. There are tons of old style camps that are now very rewarding with the mini atma bonus of GoV - and much easier grind to kill even match - tough mobs while getting skill ups at the same time. Boyahda Tree is a prime example of amazing camp for midlevels to 70s since all the mobs are nearby to each other and require no efforts whatsoever. Ground Tome are still good for people lvl 90s to skill up and the xp is decent. The thing is, most people will not bother doing this, no matter how sweet the deal you offer them.

As for Abyssea making everyone has 20 lvl 95 jobs, on one side, it is amazing that now you can go try each one of the jobs within a few days of leveling - but on the other side, yes so many people have no clue on how to play these jobs properly. I like that now I can get these jobs to 95 and spend a few weeks - months playing it to learn each one and see which jobs are more suitable to my playstyle. The thing with the new style of FFXI is options, now we have so many of them, as in before, we don't really have much of a choices. Most people will take the shortest path and won't bother to learn the jobs properly - this happened even before abyssea and it will never go away. Abyssea just let us have fun and test each jobs at its full potential. Outside abyssea, these jobs are not bad if you properly gear them and know how to play it - things just take slightly longer to kill.

[Amador]

You know, you have to realize that on a "Dev Level" Mr. Tanaka stepped down twice due to having failed to provide an efficient product.

Quite frankly, people were quitting back then, then numbers raised once Abyssea came out and was dissected, and even more so at the release of Voidwatch. However, badly broken it maybe on drop rates. It's still a fresh system. Tanaka and his lackies to say that Abyssea was a mistake and something that shouldn't have been done is very arrogant in thinking he could of done better at the time.

He didn't do better, he destroyed 14 and bowed out. Fresh minds took over 11, and made it better. Same for 14, they're adjusting his mistakes to make the game relevant.

Now this isn't a bash the developer thread, so people should refrain from doing so. Instead defend the idea of what Abyssea is, what it brought forth and what it is.

Tanaka stated that Abyssea was something Final Fantasy 11 wasn't. In all respects of what Final Fantasy is, it's the closest thing on Final Fantasy 11 to what Final Fantasy is. High HP, High Damage, Tough Mobs, Speedy Combat, Auto-Reraise, It's everything that Final Fantasy IS.

Tanaka, your old "legacy" content is currently being revised, being made better, being changed into something you never even thought of it becoming. What can you truly bring us to the table that is Final Fantasy? That's inventive, that's big monsters, scary monsters, big damage, big boosts, ideal strategy planning for ideal job sets, for uniqueness, for individuality, for potential.

Do you as a Producer, review and contemplate on what is in production? What items are being thought of, what formulas are in place to make the game work and function on a tactical level for players on 11?

Do you play yourself?

There's just so much experience you seem to lack in comparison as to what a few people did in two years than something you did not accomplish in the dying 8 years of Final Fantasy 11.

This is not a bash against you, this is a paying customer who was always been very happy with your work. Until you decided to quit because you felt you could not provide what was expected of you. Now that new faces have brought light to the game, you say it was a mistake and lacks balance and all this and that? At this point, who are you to rain on someone's success?

Instead of having made such an arrogant comment towards to the future of Final Fantasy 11, you should have looked at it in a positive manner, and be able to see what you never provided and what you can look towards providing. Maybe you don't want to accept the fact that Abyssea had more good than it did bad, but at this point you can't fix and balance as you wish. You quit, you lost your say in that. Abyssea, is not your legacy, it is the legacy of those who actually had insight, and it was great insight.

Move forward with your own content and provide to the people of Final Fantasy 11, something that is expected to be innovative and fun while still having "bite".

[Sparthos]

Proven to be the worst? If that was the case, why did you keep playing for years? And if everyone hates it why are you arguing against other people in this thread? Shouldn't everyone agree with you?

I think I've already explained that my reasons for playing XI as long as I have rested on my LS mates and GF coupled with some level of obsession present during the great age of kings. It's really that simple.

Fortunately, SEs incompetence coupled with my own maturity has enabled me to see the disaster of old XI for what it was - poorly implemented loot distribution systems coupled with blatant player contempt on behalf of the FFXI developers. Any system relying on solely on the random number generator even within the bounds of an MMO shows laziness on behalf of the developers to keep people playing the game.

There are better ways to build a Skinner box in short, if we're solely concerned with keeping people playing the game.


Abyssea universally lauded? Are we living in the same fucking reality? Did the 3.7 billion of people ragequitting over Abyssea and creating threads complaining about it and the game and easymode and SE's face not tip you off that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't the most welcome of additions to this game? Did you hear anyone at all complain like this about any other expansion ever released (not counting the addons, they practically aren't even in the game, and still not as unpopular as Abyssea)?

My remarks about a 'universally lauded' system referred to the point method of loot distribution in contrast to the favored SE low drop rate, random output method used in Voidwatch. Point systems like the ones used in Einherjar, Assault, Campaign and ZNM often meet with fanbase favor but often are overshadowed by the random pools because SE chooses to put superior items into the RNG systems.


Again, are you just ignoring the fact that FFXI's population is lower than ever? Or are you saying that that's just VW's fault? In which case you're stupid because Abyssea is still around and if people would love it nearly as much as you're saying, they would be playing that. And if you're saying that players were leaving even before Abyssea (which was true), then how come Abyssea didn't stop it? It did stall it, that's true. Some people even came back. For a few months. Which is exactly how long it took to plow through all the new content. Then most of those people (and plenty of others) quit again.

SE had a golden opportunity with Abyssea to bring people back and keep them back yet from this interview we can easily conclude that they don't seem to get that a more casual style of play is conducive to keeping your base. Or maybe they do but simply can't bring themselves to churning out this level of content. So what do they do? The same thing most people do when they're at a crossroads: Stuck to what they were comfortable with.

And what SE is comfortable with is anathema to most players.

Abyssea was easy - almost too easy but you still had players on the hook and all SE had to do was reel them in by creating more content similar to Abyssea with small bumps in the difficulty level. Instead, SE chose to ratchet back up the difficulty, put out no breadcrumbs, return the game to crappy droprates/huge timesinks all backed by the random number generator that may or may not favor you. Middle ground? Who needs that at Square-Enix.

It's really like they learned nothing. Tanaka's solution to VW rates is to make the monsters easier through white !!s all while missing the point that the difficulty isn't what most people are bitching about - it's the damned random drops.



No one argues that (apart from some butthurt relic holders). But they most definitely could have gone about it differently. Do you remember your first reaction to the announcement of Empy+2 gear? No? I do, here it is: "HOLY FUCKING SHITBALLS!!" Guess how I know that? Because that was everyone's reaction. And it wasn't because the gear was better. It was because it was orders of magnitude better. People weren't even mentioning shitballs at salvage gear, even though it was amazing (well, maybe Ares's Cuirass). That's how upgrades are supposed to be. Noticeable, but not massive. Otherwise you end up with the example I mentioned a few pages ago.

And that's how upgrades are supposed to be as it stimulates everyone to upgrade and thus make the new systems popular amongst shouts. Part of why Voidwatch isn't as popular as Abyssea lay in the fact that most of the gear screams sidegrade and can barely outperform +2 Empyreans.


Hell yeah, people did it anyway. And if someone camps a mob 24 hours a day they damn well deserved that Ridill. If people have really grown up now, then you don't have to worry about Japanese people stealing your mobs in your primetime.

I hate hippies. With a passion.

Botting? Backstabbing? What the fuck are you talking about? HNMs, that's it. How did people bot and backstab in Dynamis, Einherjar, sea, sky, Limbus, Salvage, Nyzul Isle, etc.?

Are you just being dense to be dense?

I don't care about how many hours you clocked to get a Ridill, how dedicated a worker you were sitting at Tiamat for 12hours or even how awesome you were holding that KB because it all misses the point that perpetuated a system that went completely against the 'moderation' ethos they claimed to stand behind every time you log in.

SE had a choice to shut down Kings as quick as they patched holes that RMT were abusing yet they never did until the whole system had become obsolete via Abyssea. For years individuals asked SE to make said HNMs ??? pops using Ks99, triggers or any number of other methods yet SE ignored this because it was no secret that the more people they had botting kings, the less work they had to put into making the game better.

The low drop rates in Dynamis coupled with the time investment to build a relic led to all sorts of trickery and dickery from ninja'd Duelist's Chapeaus to Shadow Rings. Where was SE during all this? Giving a huge middle finger to the base because they 'knew better'. For you to say there was no backstabbing or betrayals caused by the obscenely low rates of some drops in this game is simply asinine.

When you'd go 0/100 on stuff like QQTH, Citadel or GG3, it became quite a market to rob people for your own gains or to manipulate others and where was SE during this I ask? Asleep at the wheel developing XIV while doing absolutely nothing to rectify issues the game was having regarding fun for casual players.

Most people bailed by mid-TOAU when the game hit the skids for the very reasons listed above.


Backstabbing? As in... MPKing people who claimed your mob? GMable. Enmity stealing to flail them? GMable (and preventable, but still). Ninjalotting? Not preventable by the devs, but by party leaders. Didn't pass after 4min? Kick. Easy as that. Ninjalotting was never possible if the leader paid attention.

So what exactly was your point again?

Lol GMs. You could be MPK'd back during the age of kings, call a GM and promptly get a copy/paste response while the shell that stole your mob banks a couple million gil off your misery if the GM even responded in time. Mobs been dead 15mins when the GM finally responds? Guess what - you're getting told to suck to it up or some bogus excuse that the 'logs will be checked' - lolololol. Give me a break. Unless you yelled racial slurs in Aery, deliberately made it clear you were out to screw with people or made the botting too obvious a GM would never jail you, nevermind take 'action'.

For you to come with the genius advice that solving conflicts was merely a GM call away is just laughable. Apparently me and you were playing different versions of FFXI - you must have had the copies where the GMs gave a shit.

[Luvbunny]

Thanks Sparthos for writing well thought opinion regarding the state of the game before and after abyssea.

[Greatguardian]

lol. Why am I being called an Abyssea Defender? Abyssea gives me a headache, honestly. It's repetitive and boring at this point. The content was strung out for too long. My friends and I are beyond bloody sick of Empyrean weapons. We started an Ochain 2 months ago and still haven't bothered to go finish it.

There are not two extremes at work here, Arcon. This isn't a matter of Abyssea or RotZ Kings and nothing else. There are certain quality of life issues that the Developers have only recently begun to address, and that is in no way a bad thing (Well, aside from the fact that they're only NOW addressing them).

Teleporting to battle areas is fine. There is no real skill involved in seeing who can fleehack their way to Dragon's Aery the fastest.

Force spawning NMs is also fine. I know a lot of people made a lot of money by writing bots, but winning claims has never been an indicator of skill.

Some time sinks are okay. Assault tags? That's okay. Putting in a tag-esque system with Kis refreshing every 22 or 46 hours for new HNMs would result in the exact same time factor, just without the "Who's got the most expensive bot" bottleneck.

Some time sinks are not okay. 0.1% Drop rates? Not okay. I've gone over 0-1/100+ on more NMs than most new players can name off the top of their heads. Does that make me feel skilled? Special? Dedicated? Accomplished? No, it really doesn't. I'm not elated when I get that 1/247 drop off Poisonhand Gnagdad. I'm just less likely to throw my computer out my window. The random number generator sucks. This isn't a single player RPG, or a Korean MMO.

Likewise, this doesn't mean that things need to be Gameshark easy - there are other ways to add difficulty/rarity aside from low drop rates.

You know what SE did well? Einherjar. Einherjar was awesome. It was a quick, fun event that could be done with minimal time commitment. There was a point reward for all comers that was used to buy unique and relevant armor drops. The final boss dropped relevant Abjuration armor, with a minimum loot pool expanded by TH, as well as unique and relevant Odin-specific armor/weapons.

The entry item was used as a gil sink, and the mandatory cooldown in conjunction with the feather system served as a time sink. Einherjar was awesome.

How could SE improve on Einherjar's system? Easy. Add consumables, Temp Items, and/or Alexandrite to the Ichor list. Update the Ichor list regularly (eg, not just when they feel like upgrading Einherjar once every 5 years) with new armor pieces that are actually worth obtaining.

I realize that people used to pride themselves on how "FFXI is so much harder than WoW and thus we are all better players than anyone who plays WoW because easy games are for kids", but that tripe never had any real substance. People really need to learn to differentiate between sincere game difficulty and stockholm syndrome.

People don't need things handed out on a silver platter. I don't mind saving up 100,000 pseudo-Ichor for a Mekira Meikogi. I just don't want the sum of my progress to be either 0% or 100% at any given time. FFXI does not follow the law of averages, it follows the law of large numbers. It is theoretically sound to go 0/1 billion on Ridill and then get the next 11 million drops in a row. That should not happen in the future, and should never have happened in the first place.

I want to say that there's a middle ground here but this isn't really middle ground. A lot of old systems were shit. Some new systems aren't much better. What's in the middle of shit and shit? More Shit. So no, I don't want a middle ground. I want something good.

[Setsuai]

You do realize that 6 man party style never goes away and it is made much much sweeter and rewarding with the huge xp bonus and auto repeat FoV/GoV and exp ring. There are tons of old style camps that are now very rewarding with the mini atma bonus of GoV - and much easier grind to kill even match - tough mobs while getting skill ups at the same time. Boyahda Tree is a prime example of amazing camp for midlevels to 70s since all the mobs are nearby to each other and require no efforts whatsoever. Ground Tome are still good for people lvl 90s to skill up and the xp is decent. The thing is, most people will not bother doing this, no matter how sweet the deal you offer them.

As for Abyssea making everyone has 20 lvl 95 jobs, on one side, it is amazing that now you can go try each one of the jobs within a few days of leveling - but on the other side, yes so many people have no clue on how to play these jobs properly. I like that now I can get these jobs to 95 and spend a few weeks - months playing it to learn each one and see which jobs are more suitable to my playstyle. The thing with the new style of FFXI is options, now we have so many of them, as in before, we don't really have much of a choices. Most people will take the shortest path and won't bother to learn the jobs properly - this happened even before abyssea and it will never go away. Abyssea just let us have fun and test each jobs at its full potential. Outside abyssea, these jobs are not bad if you properly gear them and know how to play it - things just take slightly longer to kill.

The only problem is no one wants to do the six man party anymore, and its kinda hard to level a mage job solo like that. At least it was for me. I've leveled at least 2 jobs since the GoV stuff was put out. Had my flag up waiting for any kind of invite, and I'd never get a GoV invite. Just Abyssea. Granted one of those times was my whm and I'd barely had it up 1 minute (literally) before I got an invite. But before that was my SCH and I never saw a GoV invite.

As for the other part, yeah, I know the problem already existed before Aby, but I guess Aby made it more visible. And I love the fact that I can level a job 30-70ish or higher in a day, but I feel gimpy when I look at my skills. It's not quite so horrible since I've leveled mostly mage jobs since aby started, but I'm running out of mage jobs to level and I can only imagine what will happen when I actually attempt to level a melee. It honestly scares me. And as for playing outside abyssea, I'm not so sure. I've seen too many chary's running around in full pink/teal gear when they're 95 and I know they can do better. The sets aren't bad for their level, but there are better pieces that would benefit so much more. It may just be me, and I may be only noticing them for one reason or another. Of course, this is also just my opinion ^_^;;

[Luvbunny]

Setsuai, you can find maybe 1-2 other people for skill ups at Boyahda or Zeruhm Mines. Also check these GoV areas, some people are doing magian trial where they have to kill 250 rabbit or mandy, which makes it easy to just cast paralyze, slow, dia, blind over and over or do lower tier nuke (or sub blm for frost, choke, etc - can also do helix). These soloers will greatly appreciate what your SCH can bring - safety in numbers - not to mention you help them kill faster. As for 6 person party - it's pretty dead, but not 2-3 people killing decent/even match mob at GoV. For example, the typical crawler nest party is near the entrance, but further in you can do the crawler/beetle one at the beetle camp. No one hardly there and easily duo up to level 63 before xp is dead. This is good to duo skill ups from 58-63 skill levels (up to 200s). As always you can speed it up using some food that will get you faster skill ups gain.

As scholar you can also offer them skillchain partner to finish their weapon skill trial or mythic weapon skill trial. Actually this is probably your greatest asset and you should freely advertise this in your LS. Many people need to skill ups, doing WS trials, magian trials, etc. Having a mage is a big plus - and outside abyssea, sch and rdm are very capable to self sustain and never run out of mp.

The game has many options now but you know, the general public will always follow the hordes. The good thing you only need 1-2 other people to hit the GoV page skill ups. As for people running around in peptobismol gears, they may not have time to seal farm or have no idea on how to do the abyssea content properly other than lvlng up via dominion :)

[Karbuncle]

What's in the middle of shit and shit? More Shit. So no, I don't want a middle ground. I want something good.

Seems oddly an irrelevant statement for you, when most asking for a middle ground specify "Steady Rewarding/Goal System + random drop pools". Hence, "Something good".

I mean, so long as its not more of voidwatch chest system :D

[Greatguardian]

Seems oddly an irrelevant statement for you, when most asking for a middle ground specify "Steady Rewarding/Goal System + random drop pools". Hence, "Something good".

I mean, so long as its not more of voidwatch chest system :D

I wasn't referring to a middle ground between the presented arguments, but rather a middle ground between Old and New FFXI - both of which contain some epic shit loot systems.

Edit: For the record, I'm not a huge fan of Voidwatch's or Abyssea's drop systems either. They improved some things, and completely destroyed others. There is no balance, or even duality, it's just different.

Cue TanakaBarance.jpg

I could muse all day about what I think an ideal drop system would be, but honestly I doubt that would do us much good. Even if Camate had the Nirvana-tier patience to wade through this thread (which is quite possible, the man has performed a great many impossiburu feat thus far), the fact remains that the Developers themselves (read: Not the community staff, we love you) have demonstrated that they really aren't very interested in things that don't mirror content that they're already working on. The integrity of the game world is paramount, even if it comes at the expense of its inhabitants.

It's ironic, really, that they're adding in all this anti-linkshell personal chest crap now that the most egregious item hoarders have long since quit the game.

[Sp1cyryan]

I love how they go on about game balance and saying abyssea broke it, but fail to see they have a huge disconnect between themselves and the player base.

'GUIZ NEW UTUBE CHANEL (with no comments, not that it matters) WII NO WHAT UZA SAYIN NOAW! WII OUTREACH COMUNITTY'

[Setsuai]

Setsuai, you can find maybe 1-2 other people for skill ups at Boyahda or Zeruhm Mines. Also check these GoV areas, some people are doing magian trial where they have to kill 250 rabbit or mandy, which makes it easy to just cast paralyze, slow, dia, blind over and over or do lower tier nuke (or sub blm for frost, choke, etc - can also do helix). These soloers will greatly appreciate what your SCH can bring - safety in numbers - not to mention you help them kill faster. As for 6 person party - it's pretty dead, but not 2-3 people killing decent/even match mob at GoV. For example, the typical crawler nest party is near the entrance, but further in you can do the crawler/beetle one at the beetle camp. No one hardly there and easily duo up to level 63 before xp is dead. This is good to duo skill ups from 58-63 skill levels (up to 200s). As always you can speed it up using some food that will get you faster skill ups gain.

As scholar you can also offer them skillchain partner to finish their weapon skill trial or mythic weapon skill trial. Actually this is probably your greatest asset and you should freely advertise this in your LS. Many people need to skill ups, doing WS trials, magian trials, etc. Having a mage is a big plus - and outside abyssea, sch and rdm are very capable to self sustain and never run out of mp.

The game has many options now but you know, the general public will always follow the hordes. The good thing you only need 1-2 other people to hit the GoV page skill ups. As for people running around in peptobismol gears, they may not have time to seal farm or have no idea on how to do the abyssea content properly other than lvlng up via dominion :)

You do make a good point. I guess I just spend so much time in Aby since my LS is currently building empys and doing regular seal runs, so I guess I'm being kind of narrow minded. You've given me alot to think about. Thanks for that :3

[Atomic_Skull]

I feel the same way somewhat, but as most would say on this thread, abyssea revolutionized everything in final fantasy, not replaces and made all of the content obsolete.

No instead we get people mentioning other content has augments, most augments up to now, (Not future augments as i know someone will retard read this and try to mention future shit that isnt out)

The +5 Nyzul gear may not be "out" but it is in the dats on the test client and it blows Abyssea gear out of the water.

Askar Korazin +5 - DEF70 +16 STR ATK+5% (Limit+50) CritHitDamageUP+15% DoubleAttackDmgUp+15% Set Bonus: Occasionally annuls severe damage taken

Denali Jacket +5 - DEF63 ACC+12 Haste+4 Doubleattack +3% Trippleattack+3% Quadrupleattack+3% Set Bonus: Occasionally deal severe damage.

Goliard Saio +5 - DEF53 INT+9 MND+9 CHR+9 Macc+15 Mab+8 Mdb+8 Enmity-10 Set bonus: Occasionally negates enmity.


So yeah.

[Sharnak]

The +5 Nyzul gear may not be "out" but it is in the dats on the test client and it blows Abyssea gear out of the water.

Askar Korazin +5 - DEF70 +16 STR ATK+5% (Limit+50) CritHitDamageUP+15% DoubleAttackDmgUp+15% Set Bonus: Occasionally annuls severe damage taken

Denali Jacket +5 - DEF63 ACC+12 Haste+4 Doubleattack +3% Trippleattack+3% Quadrupleattack+3% Set Bonus: Occasionally deal severe damage.

Goliard Saio +5 - DEF53 INT+9 MND+9 CHR+9 Macc+15 Mab+8 Mdb+8 Enmity-10 Set bonus: Occasionally negates enmity.


So yeah.

It's still no info how to obtain that, but with 5 step to upgrade, I will not wonder that it's will take long long (may year to make it that far - if lucky, may many years - if not, or may impossible to obtain for some player if it's need 18 ppl alli and kill some nm hundred time repeatly and hope that you win lotto this round). since now someone try bring back old days of FFXI when you need to do everything repeatly again and again, so he can just rest well during see player dance with pain on obtain it.

[Atomic_Skull]

Any system relying on solely on the random number generator even within the bounds of an MMO shows laziness on behalf of the developers to keep people playing the game.

There are better ways to build a Skinner box in short, if we're solely concerned with keeping people playing the game.

Actually the random reward schedule is the most effective form of operant conditioning.

[SpankWustler]

I could muse all day about what I think an ideal drop system would be, but honestly I doubt that would do us much good. Even if Camate had the Nirvana-tier patience to wade through this thread (which is quite possible, the man has performed a great many impossiburu feat thus far)

I imagine members of the community team reading 50-ish posts, then getting up and screaming profanities at a special insulated wall that had to be installed in the office just for them. Reading 50-ish more posts, then inhaling deeply the fumes of the toner tray of the nearest copier. Reading 50-ish more posts, then wondering what effect the nearest pen would have if a fellow were to jam it in his or her ear.

Like, really far in. To the point of hammering that thing in there with one's palm once it hit some inner-ear bones and stopped. Fortunately for us, they are strong of heart and have yet to succumb to the temptation of the pen.

Also, I totally agree about item distribution systems generally being either very good or very bad. I'm really looking forward to the updates and additions to Einherjar and Limbus that have been vaguely mentioned, since I loved the way those events mixed random and consistent factors.

I really wish they had gone that direction with new item distribution systems. Neither the "Make a !! appear in the sky, like a sign of presence from a loving God, and many things shall drop." system in Abyssea and Dynamis nor the "Make a !! appear in the sky, like a middle-finger raised by a bitter and indifferent God, and you shall receive a personal allotment of logs and Rare/EX equipment if you already own that Rare/EX equipment." system in Voidwatch give me much joy.

I will say one very positive thing for all new content, though. They have the availability and frequency right. Nidhogg spawned a more often than once a week, but a bro can make like a German philosopher and watch the void until he dies of bitter disappointment if he wants. Then again, this has been true for most content added starting with Treasures of Aht Ughan.

[Arcon]

Edit: This was longer than I thought, tl;dr at the bottom.

Ok, for this post, let's discard the HNM-aspect to FFXI, since that is quite a different beast that needs to be dealt with.

I've been in pretty much every "scene" or "subculture" in FFXI during my play time. Hell I've been a lazy student, so I've had plenty of time to play. I know the HNM and endgame scene, I know the social scene, I know the "stand around afk and wait for some noob to shout to help them out with G1 or something" scene. I know that no content was even half as shit as people claim (ok, HNM was, admittedly, but that's it). I've been in a social LS for most of my time and we've been doing everything FFXI had to offer, with almost all noobs. We did Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Sky, Sea, KS99, had several Salvage, Nyzul and Assault groups, and we did all of it regularly. Saying "Abyssea offered content to everyone" is an asinine statement, because content was never blocked to anyone, it wasn't even much harder to access, I know several people who shouted their Nyzul/Assault/Salvage statics for example. And I remember more than one shout run for Dynamis and other events. In our LS, we even had plenty of people participate who were < Lv70 still, and some of them stayed there for a while. And you know why that was possible? For two reasons, first of all, it wasn't too hard (maybe T3 Einherjar, but once you get the hang of it, and I know for a fact that even noobs eventually do, it's doable), and secondly, there was no competition. Occasionally some Dynamis was blocked, so you did another zone, but all in all, you were never denied any content by other people, they never "stole" the access from you.

Also, I don't know where you get that shit about 0/100 droprate from. We had gotten almost all Dynamis items for most people who needed it (obviously some newer members didn't have them yet). Same with sky, we had Haidate, W.Legs and pretty much everything else worthwhile for everyone who needed it, to the point that we stopped doing Sky after a while, unless we got new people. AV drops were the only thing we never got around to doing.

I don't know any great item that had < 10% drop rate back in the day, and even that was pushing it (that's talking NM drops, of course Dynamis fodder mobs don't count, since you can plow through them). Simply, I have no idea where all that rage is coming from (except Sparthos's rage about the development teams' conspiracy to suck the soul out of every paying customer, that's just his paranoia/insanity). And remember that I'm only referring to the old FFXI, not the new FFXI. You'd have a hard time finding anyone disagreeing with the common notion that the drop system sucks ass.

That's not saying stuff can't be improved. But Abyssea is definitely not the way to go. I cannot name one good aspect of Abyssea I'd incorporate into old FFXI. Abyssea, for the most part, didn't have the "steady progress" that people claim in here. It had instant progress. If you wanted an item from Abyssea (bar Empyrean weapon), you could get it within the hour usually, two or three hours, four tops, if you were extremely unlucky on drops. That even extends to +1 equipment and for the most part even +2 equipment. The drop system in Abyssea was bad. The opposite kind of bad. Forced drops by an artificial game mechanic unrelated to the moster itself (weakness staggering) takes any kind of progress completely out of the equation. Sure, you still had to do that several times to get your +1 item, so I guess overall there was some kind of progress, but if it can be done within an hour or two, you can hardly call it that.

The only steady progress in Abyssea were Empyrean weapons. That was actually progress you could measure on a daily basis (if you were that involved), and know that every time you farm for it, you're one step closer to the goal. And I do like that, something like that should be employed for new content as well. However, the way it was added to Abyssea was just retarded, again. Boss grinds, seriously? Admittedly, I think SE simply underestimated how powerful Abyssea buffs would make the player. I don't think they ever intended for people to farm Glavoid in a party of three, which makes it even worse. They probably thought it would take months of intensive group involvement to get one player their Empyrean, making them almost as exclusive as relic weapons. Still, the one thing in Abyssea that has steady progress is the one thing people complain most about: endless boss grinds for Empyrean weapons.

And I can't believe how everyone is suddenly defending Abyssea's drop rates, when in every other thread (even some of the same people) complain about staggering and how it was retarded and should have never been implemented. So... what? You just want 100% drop rate without doing anything for it? Again, I just don't see the problem with old drop rates. Greatguardian, your argument about the law of large numbers would be perfect, if the drop rates actually were as bad as you claimed. Even Ridill, your example, had quite a decent drop rate, I've seen it drop quite a few times myself, and I was never too active with HNMs, I only did them on and off during a certain period of my FFXI career.

You're right, if an item had a 1% drop rate, steady progression would be better. I argued that myself, when SE asked us whether we wanted random or static augments, if you remember that discussion. I argued that with random augments, you have a 1% chance to get it perfect, whereas for static augments, you'd know you get it perfect it would just take you longer. But that's perfectly fine with me, and I agree wholeheartedly.

However, if an item has 20% or higher drop rate, it doesn't matter much either way. Let's assume an item has a 50% drop rate, just to make a point. Theoretically, it's still possible for someone to go 0/20 and another group going 20/20. However, the chances of either are 0.0001%. That's probably comparable to the chance that you'll wipe on a mob in your steady progression (assuming it's Abyssea-easy) and miss a step. That means, with a chance of 99.9999% you'll get the drop in 20 runs. So the law of large numbers doesn't mean much in this context.

Having said all of that, let me try to make my points again. First, minor point: oldXI wasn't perfect. It also wasn't bad, and definitely not nearly as bad as some people here make it out to be. And honestly, I really hate using the "so then quit" card, but seriously, if that stuff has been annoying you on an epic scale for several years, are you that deseperate to that to yourself?

But second, and major point, and if there's one thing you take away from this post, let it be this. This is the tl;dr stuff:
Disregarding whether or not people enjoyed Abyssea, Abyssea-like content cannot be efficiently sustained, not even by a big development team. FFXI does not have the resources to do anything like this again. SE needs to adjust what they know for a fact that kept people playing for almost a decade, and try to fit it with their current mentality. It is not easy, personally I don't think it's perfectly possible, they will have to cut some corners and some people will dislike it. But they have no other options, and they are painfully aware of it, hence what they said in that interview.

[Dibs]

The future looks so bright and rosey, aren't we all just so glad we got Tanaka back here?
Is this massive sarcasm? Or are we really happy to have a man who single-handedly ruined what should have been SE's cash cow for the next 10 years?

[Arcon]

Is this massive sarcasm? Or are we really happy to have a man who single-handedly ruined what should have been SE's cash cow for the next 10 years?

Sarcasm .

[Kimble]

Is this massive sarcasm? Or are we really happy to have a man who single-handedly ruined what should have been SE's cash cow for the next 10 years?

Yes "single-handily". <_<

[Runespider]

Yes "single-handily". <_<

According to SE yeah, didn't see anyone else publicly humiliated and fired for it.

[Sharnak]

Edit: This was longer than I thought, tl;dr at the bottom.

Ok, for this post, let's discard the HNM-aspect to FFXI, since that is quite a different beast that needs to be dealt with.

I've been in pretty much every "scene" or "subculture" in FFXI during my play time. Hell I've been a lazy student, so I've had plenty of time to play. I know the HNM and endgame scene, I know the social scene, I know the "stand around afk and wait for some noob to shout to help them out with G1 or something" scene. I know that no content was even half as shit as people claim (ok, HNM was, admittedly, but that's it). I've been in a social LS for most of my time and we've been doing everything FFXI had to offer, with almost all noobs. We did Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Sky, Sea, KS99, had several Salvage, Nyzul and Assault groups, and we did all of it regularly. Saying "Abyssea offered content to everyone" is an asinine statement, because content was never blocked to anyone, it wasn't even much harder to access, I know several people who shouted their Nyzul/Assault/Salvage statics for example. And I remember more than one shout run for Dynamis and other events. In our LS, we even had plenty of people participate who were < Lv70 still, and some of them stayed there for a while. And you know why that was possible? For two reasons, first of all, it wasn't too hard (maybe T3 Einherjar, but once you get the hang of it, and I know for a fact that even noobs eventually do, it's doable), and secondly, there was no competition. Occasionally some Dynamis was blocked, so you did another zone, but all in all, you were never denied any content by other people, they never "stole" the access from you.

Also, I don't know where you get that shit about 0/100 droprate from. We had gotten almost all Dynamis items for most people who needed it (obviously some newer members didn't have them yet). Same with sky, we had Haidate, W.Legs and pretty much everything else worthwhile for everyone who needed it, to the point that we stopped doing Sky after a while, unless we got new people. AV drops were the only thing we never got around to doing.

I don't know any great item that had < 10% drop rate back in the day, and even that was pushing it (that's talking NM drops, of course Dynamis fodder mobs don't count, since you can plow through them). Simply, I have no idea where all that rage is coming from (except Sparthos's rage about the development teams' conspiracy to suck the soul out of every paying customer, that's just his paranoia/insanity). And remember that I'm only referring to the old FFXI, not the new FFXI. You'd have a hard time finding anyone disagreeing with the common notion that the drop system sucks ass.

That's not saying stuff can't be improved. But Abyssea is definitely not the way to go. I cannot name one good aspect of Abyssea I'd incorporate into old FFXI. Abyssea, for the most part, didn't have the "steady progress" that people claim in here. It had instant progress. If you wanted an item from Abyssea (bar Empyrean weapon), you could get it within the hour usually, two or three hours, four tops, if you were extremely unlucky on drops. That even extends to +1 equipment and for the most part even +2 equipment. The drop system in Abyssea was bad. The opposite kind of bad. Forced drops by an artificial game mechanic unrelated to the moster itself (weakness staggering) takes any kind of progress completely out of the equation. Sure, you still had to do that several times to get your +1 item, so I guess overall there was some kind of progress, but if it can be done within an hour or two, you can hardly call it that.

The only steady progress in Abyssea were Empyrean weapons. That was actually progress you could measure on a daily basis (if you were that involved), and know that every time you farm for it, you're one step closer to the goal. And I do like that, something like that should be employed for new content as well. However, the way it was added to Abyssea was just retarded, again. Boss grinds, seriously? Admittedly, I think SE simply underestimated how powerful Abyssea buffs would make the player. I don't think they ever intended for people to farm Glavoid in a party of three, which makes it even worse. They probably thought it would take months of intensive group involvement to get one player their Empyrean, making them almost as exclusive as relic weapons. Still, the one thing in Abyssea that has steady progress is the one thing people complain most about: endless boss grinds for Empyrean weapons.

And I can't believe how everyone is suddenly defending Abyssea's drop rates, when in every other thread (even some of the same people) complain about staggering and how it was retarded and should have never been implemented. So... what? You just want 100% drop rate without doing anything for it? Again, I just don't see the problem with old drop rates. Greatguardian, your argument about the law of large numbers would be perfect, if the drop rates actually were as bad as you claimed. Even Ridill, your example, had quite a decent drop rate, I've seen it drop quite a few times myself, and I was never too active with HNMs, I only did them on and off during a certain period of my FFXI career.

You're right, if an item had a 1% drop rate, steady progression would be better. I argued that myself, when SE asked us whether we wanted random or static augments, if you remember that discussion. I argued that with random augments, you have a 1% chance to get it perfect, whereas for static augments, you'd know you get it perfect it would just take you longer. But that's perfectly fine with me, and I agree wholeheartedly.

However, if an item has 20% or higher drop rate, it doesn't matter much either way. Let's assume an item has a 50% drop rate, just to make a point. Theoretically, it's still possible for someone to go 0/20 and another group going 20/20. However, the chances of either are 0.0001%. That's probably comparable to the chance that you'll wipe on a mob in your steady progression (assuming it's Abyssea-easy) and miss a step. That means, with a chance of 99.9999% you'll get the drop in 20 runs. So the law of large numbers doesn't mean much in this context.

Having said all of that, let me try to make my points again. First, minor point: oldXI wasn't perfect. It also wasn't bad, and definitely not nearly as bad as some people here make it out to be. And honestly, I really hate using the "so then quit" card, but seriously, if that stuff has been annoying you on an epic scale for several years, are you that deseperate to that to yourself?

But second, and major point, and if there's one thing you take away from this post, let it be this. This is the tl;dr stuff:
Disregarding whether or not people enjoyed Abyssea, Abyssea-like content cannot be efficiently sustained, not even by a big development team. FFXI does not have the resources to do anything like this again. SE needs to adjust what they know for a fact that kept people playing for almost a decade, and try to fit it with their current mentality. It is not easy, personally I don't think it's perfectly possible, they will have to cut some corners and some people will dislike it. But they have no other options, and they are painfully aware of it, hence what they said in that interview.

First thing, I notice that you really not understand the point of view.

Acutally I read many of ppl who post here and found most of ppl all said, They not a defender of Abyssea, They just point to it's good point of Abyssea and sure it's also have bad point of Abyssea. You can't reject the fact that number of player in FFXI is reduce overtimes. That why Abyssea can deal fun to many ppl who "Not have long time to play, Not have many friend around" Not say it's online game so you must shout for party to do thing since shout to config party also "Matter of time".

Everyone can't deny that Abyssea is "Easy Mode" version of FFXI, It's build many bad behavior on player. But when you weight it totally I must say only 1 word that will answer why i still think i prefer Abyssea. - It's was "Fun" to play. - Even it's just around 6-month to 1 year but it's fun to play with it, and i so excite when it release and each time it's release new area.

And the one point that Abyssea make game more comfort - it's not just lotto game, you no need to just kill nm just for drop or not, You can collect some thing to trade good item you want. Each time you fight nm it's provide you 1 step forword more than make you just stay on same footstep. Almost everything in Abyssea is like this, I think that is the right ways to follow, since the matter of time sink, and hugh player alliance is already passed aways.

About the Sky and other old content, I must say I have like half year enjoy on good linkshell on sky. And I must say I nv see "Many of NM" in old content area have rediculus drop rate like VWNM before (Only very few nm that I must call time sink nm such as old HNM, if it pop every 2-3 hrs I must say it's also not that bad drop rate, just it rare to pop it up). You do sky with full alli 18 ppl, you kill Kirin each time you will occurs of drop something vaulable, only very some that just junk. even it's not drop on you but you will still fine cause It's progress forwording not just stop there. same to All old content.

It's the fact that, "The matter of how hard to obtain item is the value of the item". That is the term that developer must keep eye on it. But it's also mean developer can't weight it's overweight just to make player keep follow it long as you want, because of you too lazy to build new fair content for player.

Ya I talk about newest content VWNM and lasted revamp WoE, Is like a sample of content that we may meet form now.
It's not fun. You may fun on some fight, but after you suck on it with tons round of fight with ore and log drop you will feel
"What I doing here?, I just pay my money to play game or i pay it for buy lotto?"
Each time fight just all or none. Nothing forwarding, nothing unless you count that Next Chapter again and again is forwarding.

I must say that I blaim that "Too easy idea" of developer, on develope this 2 content. make FFXI now boring than before. It's not just about Abyssea make ppl got bad behavior on drop rate, but It's matter that the time was change, It's no more 2003 FFXI now, Very Very few ppl who have tons time to play, have tons ppl in linkshell to enjoy with. It's over! and It's must look how to adjust new content to match with now FFXI condition.

No need to bring new Abyssea like, Just make it fit for mostly player, not just hardcore one (I must say even my friend who normally 24/7 on game and super hardcore also stop playing right now). Rethink new content to match with time sink and number of people, Make it fun with everytime you do it you have high chance to step forward even it's may need hundred step to go up but each time you walk forward mean you one step nearer to goal, That will brighten the Future of FFXI.

So I'm not here to be defender of Abyssea, But If Developer still keep blind over good point of Abyssea. and still keep going on the ways that "THAT WAS WHAT I WANT TO DO! YOU'R PLAYER SO JUST SHUT UP AND PLAY WHAT WE PROVIDE!!!"
Even I not fortune teller, I can see the dark aged of FFXI future comming without doubt.
( I only hope new comming content Last stand and may new revamp thing will help FFXI form this situation, Just hope)

[Kimble]

According to SE yeah, didn't see anyone else publicly humiliated and fired for it.

Well, they did also change directors and fired many other people as well. But I guess none of them had anything to do with it.

[Dreamin]

Well I think 1 thing that most people would agreed on is that no one wants the current drop rate/system that is in VW and WoE. Seriously, after the 50th time when you fight Qilin and still dont get boots/dagger (NQ or HQ)/scroll with full lights, it gets to the point of beyond dull and boredom. And the kicker is that the same person seems to keep getting the SAME boots/dagger on his mule (even he's frustrated that his mule keeps getting them and he can't get himself) and have to watch it hit the floor.

[Meyi]

Also, I don't know where you get that shit about 0/100 droprate from.

Sorry, don't have time to read the rest of this post or anyone else's post as I should be heading out the door. But I saw this and knew I had to respond.

I don't know for which event the 0/100 drop rate is for, but for my Salvage group, we went about 0/120 on Macha's Coat. There was about 4 or 5 of us on Morrigan's Body and I was number four on the list due to unannounced absences. After going 120 froggies with no Macha's Coat, yeah, we were pretty irritated. I eventually left since I figured I'd never get a Morrigan's Robe, and my will to keep trying had been snuffed out.

My friend Kat went 2 years on her Morrigan Slops, going pretty regularly. Luckily for me I went 1/1 the run after we got hers...

[Raksha]

as far as abyssea goes the emp +2 armor was such a huge upgrade that they could've tripled the seal/coin requirements and it still would've been more than worth it.

The abyssea model was fine, just the # of required items was too low. You could get the entire set of +2 gear for a single job in a day if you wanted.

But anyway abyssea is in the past, good or bad, those days aren't coming back. We need to fix the current endgame systems instead of crying about the old ones.

[xbobx]

I was trying for full set of pup relic way back, only needed the hat. We had 3 pups I was second for hat. one hat dropped in a over a year and a half.

It wasn't till they changed dynamis that I finally got the hat, that was over 3 years.

[Kuvo]

I have believed that if SE would have placed a min lvl of 75 on abyssea then all the other content wouldn't as be lost as it is now. Also making us God like in abyssea with atma's and brew did ruin the outside abyssea world. But overall I wouldn't consider abyssea a total mistake. The problem with this game now is that there is no endgame content or even storyline to keep me interested. All the so called "endgame" play is just about gear hording. Lets keep getting more powerfull gear that will help us get other more powerfull gear for another job I don't really play that often. Thats all it has become. If they would ad more content with missions and or NMs that actually matter toward a good storyline that CAN"T be finished in an afternoon with a pick up party... then maybe that would be something to continue and enjoy playing.

As for me it just got really boring being outside abyssea and just gear farming all day long.

[Greatguardian]

Edit: This was longer than I thought, tl;dr at the bottom.

Ok, for this post, let's discard the HNM-aspect to FFXI, since that is quite a different beast that needs to be dealt with.

I've been in pretty much every "scene" or "subculture" in FFXI during my play time. Hell I've been a lazy student, so I've had plenty of time to play. I know the HNM and endgame scene, I know the social scene, I know the "stand around afk and wait for some noob to shout to help them out with G1 or something" scene. I know that no content was even half as shit as people claim (ok, HNM was, admittedly, but that's it). I've been in a social LS for most of my time and we've been doing everything FFXI had to offer, with almost all noobs. We did Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Sky, Sea, KS99, had several Salvage, Nyzul and Assault groups, and we did all of it regularly. Saying "Abyssea offered content to everyone" is an asinine statement, because content was never blocked to anyone, it wasn't even much harder to access, I know several people who shouted their Nyzul/Assault/Salvage statics for example. And I remember more than one shout run for Dynamis and other events. In our LS, we even had plenty of people participate who were < Lv70 still, and some of them stayed there for a while. And you know why that was possible? For two reasons, first of all, it wasn't too hard (maybe T3 Einherjar, but once you get the hang of it, and I know for a fact that even noobs eventually do, it's doable), and secondly, there was no competition. Occasionally some Dynamis was blocked, so you did another zone, but all in all, you were never denied any content by other people, they never "stole" the access from you.

Also, I don't know where you get that shit about 0/100 droprate from. We had gotten almost all Dynamis items for most people who needed it (obviously some newer members didn't have them yet). Same with sky, we had Haidate, W.Legs and pretty much everything else worthwhile for everyone who needed it, to the point that we stopped doing Sky after a while, unless we got new people. AV drops were the only thing we never got around to doing.

I don't know any great item that had < 10% drop rate back in the day, and even that was pushing it (that's talking NM drops, of course Dynamis fodder mobs don't count, since you can plow through them). Simply, I have no idea where all that rage is coming from (except Sparthos's rage about the development teams' conspiracy to suck the soul out of every paying customer, that's just his paranoia/insanity). And remember that I'm only referring to the old FFXI, not the new FFXI. You'd have a hard time finding anyone disagreeing with the common notion that the drop system sucks ass.

That's not saying stuff can't be improved. But Abyssea is definitely not the way to go. I cannot name one good aspect of Abyssea I'd incorporate into old FFXI. Abyssea, for the most part, didn't have the "steady progress" that people claim in here. It had instant progress. If you wanted an item from Abyssea (bar Empyrean weapon), you could get it within the hour usually, two or three hours, four tops, if you were extremely unlucky on drops. That even extends to +1 equipment and for the most part even +2 equipment. The drop system in Abyssea was bad. The opposite kind of bad. Forced drops by an artificial game mechanic unrelated to the moster itself (weakness staggering) takes any kind of progress completely out of the equation. Sure, you still had to do that several times to get your +1 item, so I guess overall there was some kind of progress, but if it can be done within an hour or two, you can hardly call it that.

The only steady progress in Abyssea were Empyrean weapons. That was actually progress you could measure on a daily basis (if you were that involved), and know that every time you farm for it, you're one step closer to the goal. And I do like that, something like that should be employed for new content as well. However, the way it was added to Abyssea was just retarded, again. Boss grinds, seriously? Admittedly, I think SE simply underestimated how powerful Abyssea buffs would make the player. I don't think they ever intended for people to farm Glavoid in a party of three, which makes it even worse. They probably thought it would take months of intensive group involvement to get one player their Empyrean, making them almost as exclusive as relic weapons. Still, the one thing in Abyssea that has steady progress is the one thing people complain most about: endless boss grinds for Empyrean weapons.

And I can't believe how everyone is suddenly defending Abyssea's drop rates, when in every other thread (even some of the same people) complain about staggering and how it was retarded and should have never been implemented. So... what? You just want 100% drop rate without doing anything for it? Again, I just don't see the problem with old drop rates. Greatguardian, your argument about the law of large numbers would be perfect, if the drop rates actually were as bad as you claimed. Even Ridill, your example, had quite a decent drop rate, I've seen it drop quite a few times myself, and I was never too active with HNMs, I only did them on and off during a certain period of my FFXI career.

You're right, if an item had a 1% drop rate, steady progression would be better. I argued that myself, when SE asked us whether we wanted random or static augments, if you remember that discussion. I argued that with random augments, you have a 1% chance to get it perfect, whereas for static augments, you'd know you get it perfect it would just take you longer. But that's perfectly fine with me, and I agree wholeheartedly.

However, if an item has 20% or higher drop rate, it doesn't matter much either way. Let's assume an item has a 50% drop rate, just to make a point. Theoretically, it's still possible for someone to go 0/20 and another group going 20/20. However, the chances of either are 0.0001%. That's probably comparable to the chance that you'll wipe on a mob in your steady progression (assuming it's Abyssea-easy) and miss a step. That means, with a chance of 99.9999% you'll get the drop in 20 runs. So the law of large numbers doesn't mean much in this context.

Having said all of that, let me try to make my points again. First, minor point: oldXI wasn't perfect. It also wasn't bad, and definitely not nearly as bad as some people here make it out to be. And honestly, I really hate using the "so then quit" card, but seriously, if that stuff has been annoying you on an epic scale for several years, are you that deseperate to that to yourself?

But second, and major point, and if there's one thing you take away from this post, let it be this. This is the tl;dr stuff:
Disregarding whether or not people enjoyed Abyssea, Abyssea-like content cannot be efficiently sustained, not even by a big development team. FFXI does not have the resources to do anything like this again. SE needs to adjust what they know for a fact that kept people playing for almost a decade, and try to fit it with their current mentality. It is not easy, personally I don't think it's perfectly possible, they will have to cut some corners and some people will dislike it. But they have no other options, and they are painfully aware of it, hence what they said in that interview.

I didn't like Abyssea's drop system either. I'm not sure how much more clear I could make that. Why are we arguing in circles?

The only valid points you brought up in relation to my post was about drop rates, and I'll tell you straight up that you had more luck than I did. That's all it really came down to. I have gone over 0/100+ on a dozen or more different NMs over the years. That 1/247 on Poisonhand Gnagdad was real, not a made-up number. I went 0/114 on Mee Deggi the Punisher before I just went and bought the kotes because my MNK/SAM/NIN were all 75. I went 0/127 on Quu Domi the Gallant. I went a combined 0/87 on my character and 1/74 on my 2006-girlfriend's character on Leaping Lizzie. This shit was not even funny.

Don't forget, I've been in all of the same positions you have and then some. I lead a social ls for years, I lead a casual sky ls for a year and a half, and I've been a leader in an endgame shell for 3 years - along with leading my own Voidwatch shell on the side. I've played with some of the best players on the server, as well as some of the biggest greenhorns around (some of which are now some of the best players on the server). You're right, content isn't really that hard for even noobs to get into, which is why I'm not lauding accessibility in my posts. Abyssea had a better perception of accessibility, this is true, but it's a separate point entirely.

The fact of the matter is, there are 300,000+ players on FFXI, and for every group that goes 1/1 or 10/10 on some drops, it becomes statistically accurate for another group to go 0/10. This sort of luck-based variance has never really made much sense from a gameplay perspective. It also doesn't change the fact that it perpetuates a system where your net progress on a goal is only ever 0% or 100% at any given time. You either have a drop or you don't, and fighting a monster and not getting a drop doesn't actually increase your drop rate on subsequent monsters.

Example: Assume you and your brother/friend/chimpanzee are flipping coins. There is a 50% chance that a coin will land on each side. Now, assume that coin statistics are determined globally rather than individually. If you flip your quarter 1,000 times and get tails every time, and your chimpanzee flips his quarter and gets heads every time, the global observed results of the coin tossing line up perfectly with their expected results. This is FFXI's RNG loot system in a nutshell.

I'm not saying that everyone should get 100% drops raining from the sky all the time, if that's what you're getting from my post. All I'm saying is that poor RNG drop rates are not an ideal way to promote a time sink or encourage fluid progression.

I would rather have to kill an NM 20 times to build up enough "Poisonhand Gnagdad points" to trade for a Jujitsu Gi than have a 5% drop rate on the NM. Theoretically, these are "supposed" to be the same amount of time sink. Practically, they are not.

I'm also not concerned with how sustainable Abyssea is because I'm not defending Abyssea. Abyssea was strung out too far as is, it doesn't need more additions. Unfortunately, SE can't go in with the same mentality they had in 2005 and expect to keep subscribers at the same rate that they did in 2005.

Here's the truth of it. SE's marketing and advertising teams suck with international releases. I only heard about FFXI because I was already a final fantasy fan. SE has never been able to draw in a new market in the US or EU. They just keep trying to draw from their existing market. That doesn't work. Once someone has quit FFXI, they've lost a piece of their market. There isn't an endless supply of final fantasy fans willing to try out a decade-old game. They have never even tried to appeal to the global market outside of their fan base, and it's coming back to bite them in the ass. The MMO market has changed.

I, and many others, played FFXI for so long because the only real options for years were FFXI or WoW and WoW's artistic style made me want to gouge my eyes out. This is no longer the case. There is now a booming, healthy MMO market with an extremely large pool of players and some incredible games out or coming out soon. This is not longer a matter of "Well it's this or WoW and WoW is for whiny kids", FFXI has to directly compete with TERA, MechWarriorOnline, The Old Republic, Blade and Soul, and many other strong online games.

I'd much rather FFXI just got its act together, because I have made a lot of progress in it over the past 8 years and I do have a lot of friends online here, but they can't just continue with the old trend of repeatedly punching their players in the face and saying "What'chu gonna do about it?".

It is not impossible for FFXI to impose reasonable time sinks and challenges on its players without the aid of a random drop/random long-spawn system. These methods are archaic and ineffective at generating sincere enjoyment and progress in the game. Screw Abyssea, and Screw HNMs. Give me more Einherjar, Limbus, and Assaults.

Edit: AND OH GOD SALVAGE. If you don't think 0.01% drop rates existed, you didn't do Salvage regularly.

[Dreamin]

I have believed that if SE would have placed a min lvl of 75 on abyssea then all the other content wouldn't as be lost as it is now. Also making us God like in abyssea with atma's and brew did ruin the outside abyssea world. But overall I wouldn't consider abyssea a total mistake. The problem with this game now is that there is no endgame content or even storyline to keep me interested. All the so called "endgame" play is just about gear hording. Lets keep getting more powerfull gear that will help us get other more powerfull gear for another job I don't really play that often. Thats all it has become. If they would ad more content with missions and or NMs that actually matter toward a good storyline that CAN"T be finished in an afternoon with a pick up party... then maybe that would be something to continue and enjoy playing.

As for me it just got really boring being outside abyssea and just gear farming all day long.


I'm somewhat in different regarding the old notion on the level 75 requirements for abyssea entry just because the fact that 'leveling' isn't hard anymore with so many different ways to get exp.

But I 100% agreed to the main issue here which is that:

SE lacks any real content that is worth doing. Seriously, I rather they gives us the OLD-OLD hard ass CoP that is a challenge to do but at least it's content that is worthwhile in doing. Give us something new, SE. Far East, Galka homeland, Mithra homeland, etc, etc. There are so many backstory that you can use and develop and instead of doing those, you keep giving us Time Sink events like WoE/VW that are beyond dull and boring after the 50th time fighting the same NM and getting nothing but Logs and Ores.

[Arcon]

@Greatguardian:
I wanna say right now that much of my post was not directed at you. I read it loud and clear when you said Abyssea gave you a headache, I remember that well, because I feel the same way, and I believe I can relate to what you're saying more than most on here.

I guess you're right, in the end it does depend on what we perceived. I camped pretty much every NM in the game until I had the drop, sometimes even multiple times, for friends and 3/100+ on Goblintrap was probably the worst I have ever observed (actually worse than my own 35 body, although from other people's reports I know how bad Salvage could be). I admit Salvage had the worst drop rates I've encountered, and SE addressed that too (even if too late). Again, I'm not saying oldXI had it all right, all I said (and this wasn't directed at you) is that Abyssea had most things even more wrong. And the worst part was the discrepancy of the two systems, it was horrendous and it's part of what changed people's mentality on here, probably permanently.

As I said, I wasn't really disagreeing with you, except on the drop rate part, although I admit that's my own perception of it. Guess I have a lucky charm or two. In the end we're saying the same thing, SE needs to find a way to combine what keeps people on their leash and at the same time doesn't pull them in so close to make people wanna bite their head off. Voidwatch was clearly too much, especially after Abyssea, right when people got used to getting everything handed on a silver platter. I'm just sick and tired of people wanting Abyssea back.. and honestly, I'm surprised why. Just a few months ago everyone was complaining vehemently against anything Abyssea-related. I wonder where those people are now. I'm guessing they quit already. Either that or they realized bitching doesn't help and just calmed down.

[Olor]

I've leveled at least 2 jobs since the GoV stuff was put out. Had my flag up waiting for any kind of invite, and I'd never get a GoV invite. Just Abyssea. Granted one of those times was my whm and I'd barely had it up 1 minute (literally) before I got an invite. But before that was my SCH and I never saw a GoV invite.


You can't stand in town with your flag up hoping for a GoV invite - you gotta go to the dungeon (do a search of the area first to make sure there are people down there and not a full alliance) you then shout {book} {burn} {party} {please invite me} and as long as you're reasonably within the level range you'll get an invite.

[Taint2]

Didn't read the thread but the OP is right - brews ruined Abyssea content. The rest of it was pretty damn cool. A 75 cap on entry would have changed things up a bit too.

[Olor]

I honestly don't get the harping on the entry level requirement. Having it at 30 hurts nothing. Having it at 75 would just mean new players wouldn't be able to access it when they got to the appropriate level (in my case it took 3 days to get to 30, I started stones accumulating, and then a couple months later, when I was ready to go in and start working on that content, I had stones to work with)

So what if people can leech exp. Who really cares?

[Mirabelle]

Wow can't believe all the Abyssea hatred here. I still think it was overall the most fun I've had in FFXI since I started back in 2004. I'd put it up there with my Nyzul and CoP statics which were also a lot of fun and way ahead of dynamis, sea, sky. Limbus and Einherjar were in between for me.

My only problem with Abyssea was the way it became a bit exclusionary for a lot of jobs based on the proc system. If that had been balanced better and WHM hadn't been given so much healing power, Abyssea could have been close to ideal. The feeling of steady progression towards a goal, the wide variety of NM's to defeat, the KI system and popping system. Even the concept of proc's was a good concept if not somewhat limited in its implementation.

But I certainly don't buy that tons of people left because of Abyssea. People have been leaving steadily for years because a) they've grown up, b) its an old game, c) PS2 limitations (j/k ~.^), d) they've grown weary of SE's hurdles.
The major problem is they've been unable to entice new players into the game. Understandable since it is a 10 year old game.

Anyway, I'm willing to take on the role of Abyssea defender. I still have fun with my Empyrean group. I find that every time out we are gaining ground whereas in activities like dyna and sky it seemed you could go months without getting anything useful out of it. I find going in and trying to solo certain NM's on DNC can be incredibly challenging and even some NM's in small groups can give a helluva fight. So I'll be hanging in abyssea a while longer and hope that SE can design an endgame even more robust than Abyssea for the future.

[cidbahamut]

So what if people can leech exp. Who really cares?

People with nostalgia goggles and people who aren't willing to take the initiative to build their own parties, or in some cases people who are bitter about there not being enough people flagged up to build a party(but then again, that's always been a problem).

Abyssea is just a convenient scapegoat.

[Sparthos]

I've been in pretty much every "scene" or "subculture" in FFXI during my play time. Hell I've been a lazy student, so I've had plenty of time to play. I know the HNM and endgame scene, I know the social scene, I know the "stand around afk and wait for some noob to shout to help them out with G1 or something" scene. I know that no content was even half as shit as people claim (ok, HNM was, admittedly, but that's it). I've been in a social LS for most of my time and we've been doing everything FFXI had to offer, with almost all noobs. We did Dynamis, Limbus, Einherjar, Sky, Sea, KS99, had several Salvage, Nyzul and Assault groups, and we did all of it regularly. Saying "Abyssea offered content to everyone" is an asinine statement, because content was never blocked to anyone, it wasn't even much harder to access, I know several people who shouted their Nyzul/Assault/Salvage statics for example.

Abyssea was successful because it was open to everyone and the loot was potent enough that even the worst player could realize that those zones were the place to be. The problem with alot of old XI content lay in the fact that if you didn't reach X point, you couldn't participate meaning that for someone doing the content it became difficult to organize a run because the available pool of individuals was immediately hamstrung.

Great for statics and potential poison for casuals.

For instance, Salvage. Remember the AP you needed to enter? If you didn't do your homework (and got access to RedvBlue) you either had to repeat other runs that did not completely cover the cost of entry into Salvage or spend time getting to RvB so you could reasonably maintain points to do the runs. So in addition to doing the run, you had to spend 30+ mins doing a prep run of Assault to cover Salvage. This was the model for Salvage in effect:

Do Assault (tied to points and microscopic drop rate HQ items) -> use Assault Points for Salvage (thus draining your ability to use Assault points for rewards) -> Enter Salvage -> Fight NMs with microscopic droprates -> More than likely get nothing -> Rinse -> Repeat.

Does that sound like something fun outside when repeated over 100x? Let's not even discuss that locking you into RvB completely hosed any chance of making Assault progress or helping friends. "Sorry, cant use tags - doing Salvage."

The dev response: Get better friends.

Oh, and who can forget Salvage locked you out of Nyzul Isle meaning that creating statics barred you from participating in the other event which again lowered the immediate pool of people you could participate with and doubly so when Salvage was literally an infinite grind. Tired of being on the hamster wheel? The system then forces you to cut 'friends' loose because the rates were so bad that it was impossible to help all your individuals finish pieces leading to perpetuated drama, unneeded stress and a "me me me" mentality amongst some players.

Admittingly however, Nyzul drop rates were far and away better than Salvage.

On Assault? Many people never got to high ranks (due to SE not updating the AP loot and being afraid to challenge kings gear at the time) meaning that if you managed to reach the levels of Sergeant or Lieutenant it'd often be a chore to find other people in your rank to assist on runs. You were actually penalized for being ahead of the pack unless you happened to have a static. Why couldn't you just bring anyone into the run? Why make it so hard to gather up individuals to have fun?

Update the rewards? Naw, lets just keep Kings popular so people can make thousands off bots, perpetuate RMT activity and overall depreciate the quality of the game.


And I remember more than one shout run for Dynamis and other events. In our LS, we even had plenty of people participate who were < Lv70 still, and some of them stayed there for a while. And you know why that was possible? For two reasons, first of all, it wasn't too hard (maybe T3 Einherjar, but once you get the hang of it, and I know for a fact that even noobs eventually do, it's doable), and secondly, there was no competition. Occasionally some Dynamis was blocked, so you did another zone, but all in all, you were never denied any content by other people, they never "stole" the access from you.

And how were those shout Dynamis runs were run? Thanks to how Dynamis rewarded individuals it'd often be some variant of:

(Dynamis-Bastok) (Do you need it?) Currency X, Relic Freelot (/tell) Leader

So basically you were doing a run for someone to finish their relic while you were given the equivalent of scrap drops, especially as Dynamis was old as shit and began to drag in it's old state for far too long. Dynamis boiled down to a world where a few people manipulated the masses to finish year-long commitments often with very little recompense for the participants.

Someone at SE thought this was a good idea to leave unmodified? Or were they so blind they didn't see what was happening across servers for the better part of years?


Also, I don't know where you get that shit about 0/100 droprate from. We had gotten almost all Dynamis items for most people who needed it (obviously some newer members didn't have them yet). Same with sky, we had Haidate, W.Legs and pretty much everything else worthwhile for everyone who needed it, to the point that we stopped doing Sky after a while, unless we got new people. AV drops were the only thing we never got around to doing.

I personally went nearly 40 Kirins without Wlegs and only recieved them recently after buying a set and just throwing my hat into the ring. Stuff is random and what is an easy score for one person can be a nightmare of years for others - the key problem with relying on the random number generator. Ask around these boards and im sure you'll get many first hand experiences on the horrors of a chapeau, tonban, shadow ring, macha's coat etc etc.


I don't know any great item that had < 10% drop rate back in the day, and even that was pushing it (that's talking NM drops, of course Dynamis fodder mobs don't count, since you can plow through them). Simply, I have no idea where all that rage is coming from (except Sparthos's rage about the development teams' conspiracy to suck the soul out of every paying customer, that's just his paranoia/insanity). And remember that I'm only referring to the old FFXI, not the new FFXI. You'd have a hard time finding anyone disagreeing with the common notion that the drop system sucks ass.

Paranoia and Insanity? Or just my observations of the SE dev team over the years? I'll leave the readers to decide.

If you think that SE cared about paying customers throughout CoP right up until Abyssea I launched, you're clearly obscuring the facts in order to play apologist for the devs. The reason why so many people applauded Abyssea is because things were previously designed so terribly with regards to time v. reward, drop rates, time commitments etc. that Abyssea didn't even seem like the design of Square-Enix.

The last idea to come from SE before Abyssea were:
-VNMs
-Yilbegan
-Evoliths

The trifecta of quite possibly the worst ideas to come out of dev teams heads.

For years many good ideas (and bad ones) were floated to the dev team yet they never really cared to take consumer input to the development process because they were content in designed this game within a vacuum. Tanaka clearly didn't help things either his grumpy father mentality of "you'll eat those damn peas and you'll like it!". Things that are just now being addressed could have been solved years ago when the playerbase pointed them out yet im supposed to sit here and commend the dev team for once again reverting to the "ignore base" mode of development?

For a brief while I had some faith the devs had learned their lesson but it's clear they're going back to the regularly scheduled program of low drop rates, obscure events that few enjoy, microscopic upgrades and 'take a year to finish a piece'.

The dev team aren't idiots and it'd be unfair to call them completely inept but they really need to do something that they clearly haven't done in years:

Play the game.

It would clearly avoid silly moments like mentioning that BST is 'powerful' enough to need limitations on pets, show the flaws of classes like DRK and give insight into what exactly the updates and patches do to the status quo within Vana'diel.

[Seriha]

I honestly don't get the harping on the entry level requirement. Having it at 30 hurts nothing. Having it at 75 would just mean new players wouldn't be able to access it when they got to the appropriate level (in my case it took 3 days to get to 30, I started stones accumulating, and then a couple months later, when I was ready to go in and start working on that content, I had stones to work with)

So what if people can leech exp. Who really cares?


Every time I see people whine about the 30 cap, I remember all the Astral Burning in KT or how people only level sync'd to colibri in Ronf or at the Leypoint with a PL. These people all "sucked" at their jobs, too, I'm sure. Minimizing the tedium of EXP and basically upping the party size to 18 for it did wonders for the game. No longer did you need the perfect set up. Some guy sitting on his butt with his flag up for hours became far less likely. Recapping EXP from deaths as an "out" job was no longer a chore. People can actually make gil while EXPing these days, too. Multi-tasking in FFXI like getting cash and EXP was unheard of in the old days.

[Worldwise]

Abyssea a mistake? hey come on that's nonsence!!!

[Arcon]

Paranoia and Insanity? Or just my observations of the SE dev team over the years? I'll leave the readers to decide.

I vote paranoia and insanity. Your entire post reeks of it.

I don't think the dev team is perfect, in fact, I criticize a lot of what they did (and do), even in this thread itself. I know they're out of touch with some things, and often don't have a clue about how the playerbase will react. But that's not what you're saying. You say they do it deliberately.


And how were those shout Dynamis runs were run? Thanks to how Dynamis rewarded individuals it'd often be some variant of:

(Dynamis-Bastok) (Do you need it?) Currency X, Relic Freelot (/tell) Leader

So basically you were doing a run for someone to finish their relic while you were given the equivalent of scrap drops, especially as Dynamis was old as shit and began to drag in it's old state for far too long. Dynamis boiled down to a world where a few people manipulated the masses to finish year-long commitments often with very little recompense for the participants.

First of all, no. Dynamis shouts didn't look like that. Relic holders either had their own LS where they leeched off their people, or they were doing it within their own LS (usually HNM/endgame LS), to help each other get relics useful to the group. Dynamis shouts were usually "Choose AF or big money to lot on, rest freedrop". And even in sponsored runs, why did you participate? You could have just as well set something up yourself, if you wanted free drops. Sure, sometimes you didn't know any better, so you went with other groups a few times to figure it out, and then voila! Then you knew better. That's what people did. We had plenty of regular Dynamis shells, unsponsored, shared costs, shared rewards, we did it like this in my social shell as well.


Someone at SE thought this was a good idea to leave unmodified? Or were they so blind they didn't see what was happening across servers for the better part of years?

It wasn't bad. There was nothing wrong with it, and I just told you way. There has always been a way for everyone to profit from Dynamis. If people going for a relic could find hundreds of people to leech off of, then those hundreds of people would have been more than interested to join an equal split Dynamis LS. It's as Greatguardian said, content was always open to everyone, only Abyssea made it more obvious. It was not a game flaw for not teaching people how to make their own groups, it was people being comfortable with being lazy. And guess what, it's still the same. Not every noob can make an Empyrean. Let a party of pink people try to farm Glavoid KIs. They won't kill Adze. They won't be able to farm with chests, hell they probably won't even be able cap lights. That doesn't mean it's hard. It's piss easy. People in my LS didn't know how, I showed them, now I get to leech too while they do it, without issues. The development team didn't step in and told them how it works. I did. Same as back in the day. It's not something the development team should even be working on.


Does that sound like something fun outside when repeated over 100x? Let's not even discuss that locking you into RvB completely hosed any chance of making Assault progress or helping friends. "Sorry, cant use tags - doing Salvage."

The dev response: Get better friends.

No, that's your response. The development team gave you plenty of options. If you do Salvage seven times a week, yeah, you'll run out of points. And again, it's the same thing in Abyssea, you hear people crying about it all the time "Can someone help me with G1?" "Why can't your LS help you?" "They're farming Empyreans."

So, it's the development team's fault? You don't have to do only one activity. But if you want the best and fastest progress, that's what you'll be doing. And it's always like that, not even in FFXI, that's life (in case you didn't figure it out yet). The more you focus on one thing, the less you'll be able to focus on other things. So screw the "development team's" response, here's my response: stop being so selfish.

I have to go out so I'll stop here, but the rest of your post is pretty much just the same crap over and over. You list thing's that are either the same as in Abyssea (but somehow they're the development team's fault), or they're irrelevant, and even a nice little lie you had in there: "Update the rewards? Naw, lets just keep Kings popular so people can make thousands off bots, perpetuate RMT activity and overall depreciate the quality of the game." That, my friend, is bullshit. They did update the rewards and they added most of king rewards to Einherjar, and BB items from KS99, which means only Ridill and Defending Ring were kings-exclusives. The only reason people still did kings was to sell items to impatient people. Regardless, I'll still agree that kings (and HNMs in general) were "bad" examples of the old gamestyle, but that's an entirely different topic on gaming philosophy (namely, whether or not everyone is entitled to the best gear).

Sorry, but if someone says that one of the biggest game developers in the world deliberately and maliciously try to frustrate their paying customerbase, you're just full of it. You're just a conspiracy nut and nothing else.

[FrankReynolds]

Ahhhh I miss the old days, When you could shout "Kirin (farm) (do you need it?) W.Legs = X everything else free lot!" and 2 hours later, you would have your W.Legs. You used to be able to join a Dynamis LS, and start collecting currency right away for your relic club. Relic gear was all free lot. Pick up groups were easily clearing einherjar daily, and there were no bots at ground kings because the gear they dropped was soooo easy to get elsewhere. Salvage was insanely popular, and everyone was captain rank. Points / tags were never a problem because everyone had already cleared all the missions and collected all the nyzul gear. Traveling by foot through 10 different zones to get to a level capped fight so that you could help a new player was super fun, and people lined up to do it.

J/K

Seriously though. I think up until they recently had somewhat of a change of heart, (probably with the failure of FFXIV as a catalyst) they considered it a sign of weakness to take player feedback seriously ( or they possibly viewed feedback as disrespectful?). I think they still purposely ignore feedback to some degree just so that they can show that they know what they are doing without our help. They still don't fully grasp that they are in the customer service business. It seems at times that they think they are artists, and that critics just can't grasp their work. And they are. This game is a wonderful piece of work. It's not perfect though.

[Luvbunny]

Ah you have to admit, one of the greatest thing about old style classic FFXI is that you can quit for 3-6 months and nothing really changes in the game and you don't feel that you get left behind since everyone still running on the same hamster wheels for years and still get nothing. Now, I have not been able to quit since there is always something to do, and so many options, and there is no reason for me to say I cannot do this and that - because now I CAN!! Obviously trying to solo is slow to kill the mob, with lower chance of drop rate and more challenging. I can just grab 2-3 other people and have fun and play 10 years worth of content. Abyssea made me cannot quit and have to pay monthly fees.... and I still have not yet consume all these contents. So I suppose bringing everything back to 2003-2005 is not a bad thing, I can quit again and not feel like I miss out on anything :)

Abyssea made casual, semi casual and semi hardcore people back playing the game since all the contents are now attainable with some works - the game may not be as "challenging" but the grind is there - more bearable than before. The game is very accessible now, and FUN, that is one word that has not been associated with FF11 for years. Obviously the people who are set on getting everything ASAP will now be able to get them fast and see no reason to play - then again those are minority - it is time to market and sell this game to the majority. And yes - they really need a new PR person and new advertising to re-position this game as FUN!

[Eric]

Abyssea was one of the best things that SE did to keep players like me subscribed. I took the maximum amount of classes that I'm allowed to take at my university last quarter. Instead of cancelling my subscription due to lack of time (like I would have in the past), I didn't, because I knew that in those rare moments where I actually had some free time to play that I could at least get something done if I decided to log onto FFXI for a short while.

[Sparthos]

I vote paranoia and insanity. Your entire post reeks of it.

I don't think the dev team is perfect, in fact, I criticize a lot of what they did (and do), even in this thread itself. I know they're out of touch with some things, and often don't have a clue about how the playerbase will react. But that's not what you're saying. You say they do it deliberately.

Ah the old ad hominem attacks when you can't defend your points, guaranteed to happen in every forum discussion or your money back.

If quoting the truth makes me paranoid, I embrace it because what I state happens to be the truth. The devs have had numerous opportunities to put down the worst aspects of this game like Kings, Salvage drop rates and botting but what did they do instead? Smugly declared the playerbase had no business to be whining and further piled on the insanity window HNMs, the events with god-awful droprates and even things no one asked for that failed on launch anyway.

Sup Yilbegan? Shadowless VNMs? Evolith mobs?

You also forgot about Sandworm and Ixion so soon? How they were in fact worse than kings since the pop windows could drag longer AND the old double-whammy that Ixion could be spooked (ohi griefing) and Sandworm could drop nothing (if he even popped at all)?

With years of watching kings, the devs came to a conscious decision to design Dark Ixion/Sandworm the way they did with tons of knowledge that this was a bad idea all around and still they proceeded. I call that deliberately choosing to create a system that was designed to encouraging botting, drama and grief.

You can feel free to retort though.


First of all, no. Dynamis shouts didn't look like that. Relic holders either had their own LS where they leeched off their people, or they were doing it within their own LS (usually HNM/endgame LS), to help each other get relics useful to the group. Dynamis shouts were usually "Choose AF or big money to lot on, rest freedrop". And even in sponsored runs, why did you participate? You could have just as well set something up yourself, if you wanted free drops. Sure, sometimes you didn't know any better, so you went with other groups a few times to figure it out, and then voila! Then you knew better. That's what people did. We had plenty of regular Dynamis shells, unsponsored, shared costs, shared rewards, we did it like this in my social shell as well.

Bolded: Why Dynamis was a terribly designed event beyond the initial 'fun'. The entire thing boiled down to a few people capitalizing off the masses to build relics while everyone else acted as servants to the LS. Yeah you could have left an LS at any time you please but does that change the fact that the event was designed to funnel currency to a single person in an MMO?

Even more amusing that this event was designed for 64 people. Sure, SE may not have anticipated that individuals would create linkshells that funneled currency to sole participants but how many years does it take to realize the system needed some balancing? Did they feel that allowing one person to profit from a 3hour run while everyone else accumulated what amounted to junk drops was 'fair and balanced'? Oh wait, they did.


It wasn't bad. There was nothing wrong with it, and I just told you way. There has always been a way for everyone to profit from Dynamis. If people going for a relic could find hundreds of people to leech off of, then those hundreds of people would have been more than interested to join an equal split Dynamis LS. It's as Greatguardian said, content was always open to everyone, only Abyssea made it more obvious.

I never said there wasn't a way to create an 'equal' Dynamis, only that the event as designed by the devs was ripe for the exploitation and the devs never cared to lift a finger about it. When Dynamis was actually relevant, the event was meant to be anything but a pickup affair. You needed coordination in dealing with crowd control, effective DD to defeat the waves before you were overcome and people who could do the pulls without agrroing a bunch of stuff which all lent itself to consistency via routine LS meetings to do runs.

After the initial surges and shells took form, the PUG runs eventually took over as the big shells started to decay due to player fatigue and individuals quitting the game. What started as an LS-oriented event deteriorated into a PUG free-for-all where most of the times the leader was out to use you to score free currency.

SE had opportunities to avoid these things from happening but they didn't bother to. It's just yet another example of sheer ineptitude or general apathy towards the overall health of the game.



No, that's your response. The development team gave you plenty of options. If you do Salvage seven times a week, yeah, you'll run out of points. And again, it's the same thing in Abyssea, you hear people crying about it all the time "Can someone help me with G1?" "Why can't your LS help you?" "They're farming Empyreans."

So, it's the development team's fault? You don't have to do only one activity. But if you want the best and fastest progress, that's what you'll be doing. And it's always like that, not even in FFXI, that's life (in case you didn't figure it out yet). The more you focus on one thing, the less you'll be able to focus on other things. So screw the "development team's" response, here's my response: stop being so selfish.

Spare me the comparisons to RL as this is a game where a bunch of programmers make the rules and rule #1 is to make your playerbase happy with regards to the various events you design for them.

Unless you've joined Abyssea recently, there are no restrictions to helping someone else out which is far and away from how Nyzul/Assault/Salvage was designed. Sure, people may blow you off today cause they just dont wanna help you but back when TOAU was big, you really couldn't help someone with Assaults without throwing your own points for Salvage out of whack or losing a chance at Nyzul Isle. Your options were limited by design so can you really blame people for trying to pursue their own aims especially when Salvage boasted 0/250 on 35s? The game just wasn't user friendly and it was no secret that SE was trying to stall people to excuse themselves from making new content.

It was also around the end of TOAU that XIV was being built and resources were moved from this game. Even beyond a development decision, things were being built with the intention to keep people on the hamster wheel indefinitely rather than having fun or being user-friendly. Things could have been done differently yet they weren't and largely this boiled down to ego rather than the bottom line: giving players something they would like.

Funny SE only seemed to finally get it when XIV failed initially and the sudden realization that the faithful (if not battered) XI base should be given attention as paying customers. Part of me wants to say these forums wouldn't exist had XIV succeeded but I feel I'd be overreaching myself there.


I have to go out so I'll stop here, but the rest of your post is pretty much just the same crap over and over.

And you're good at hurling insults rather than defending your points.


even a nice little lie you had in there: "Update the rewards? Naw, lets just keep Kings popular so people can make thousands off bots, perpetuate RMT activity and overall depreciate the quality of the game." That, my friend, is bullshit. They did update the rewards and they added most of king rewards to Einherjar, and BB items from KS99, which means only Ridill and Defending Ring were kings-exclusives. The only reason people still did kings was to sell items to impatient people. Regardless, I'll still agree that kings (and HNMs in general) were "bad" examples of the old gamestyle, but that's an entirely different topic on gaming philosophy (namely, whether or not everyone is entitled to the best gear)/

You seem to continuously miss my point. SE had numerous opportunities to destroy the festering infection that was 3kings. Not create alternatives or sidegrade/downgrades - completely freakin' eradicate it. Yet what did they do? They let the festering infection spread, let the botters take control of kings and make billions of gil, facilitated RMT activity in Sky/Kings by doing nothing outside some posturing with the Special Task Force, ignored the playerbase suggestions to create poppable kings (Bercus even presented the damn idea DIRECTLY to the developers) and went above and beyond the call of duty in creating more lottery-pop monstrosities in WOTG.


Sorry, but if someone says that one of the biggest game developers in the world deliberately and maliciously try to frustrate their paying customerbase, you're just full of it. You're just a conspiracy nut and nothing else.

Really? How about we take an example from today to prove my point.

DRKs have asked for Entropy to be boosted to make Scythe viable again in todays 2011 FFXI landscape. A fair point as Entropy is rather underwhelming and comes too close to Guillotine in damage. The DEV response?


• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

Oh look, MP adjustments no one asked for rather than addressing the core issues. Don't worry, it'll be tweaked somewhere in 2013.

[Luvbunny]

Abyssea was one of the best things that SE did to keep players like me subscribed. Instead of cancelling my subscription due to lack of time (like I would have in the past), I didn't, because I knew that in those rare moments where I actually had some free time to play that I could at least get something done if I decided to log onto FFXI for a short while.

This kind of stories are the one that the developer should pay attention to. Contents that are easily attainable with some efforts - empyrian is not exactly a walk in the park for "the pink/pearle power rangers" - but the trials are doable with some works and minimal dramas. The empy people get their items, the casual get their plus 2 items, everybody wins and a great incentive to help each other.

The developer goals should be creating these type of activities, giving us a little drip of crack sugar, little by little, hooking casual players alike so that they feel that they can accomplish and have it - but it will still take them quite some time compared to the hardcore players. This way they get them hooked, and they have no excuse to quit and keep subscribing.

Grrrr... it would be nice if I can have excuse to quit because everything is so damn hard to get and take years to complete like the way it used to be. /end sarcasm

[Atomic_Skull]

Galka homeland

That's Altepa.

[Glacont]

Your posts, within this thread, are compose with great consideration. I applaud your craftsmenship.

/befriend Sparthos


@GreatGuardian

How is Old Republic? What are the strong aspects? I've been meaning to check it out.

[Atomic_Skull]

wall of text

I'm betting 99% of the people reading this thread are just skipping over your posts because they are so huge.

[cidbahamut]

I'm betting 99% of the people reading this thread are just skipping over your posts because they are so huge.
I'd hope not. They are enjoyable reading and well articulated.

[SpankWustler]

Sparthos, I think you're attributing a lot of thought-out malice towards things that are the result of thoughtless incompetence. Not that the motivation changes the end result, but it's still ridiculous to think that the Development Bros were cackling madly and drinking the blood of infants from the skulls of toddlers while planning out Sandworm or designating Entropy a (horrible) fTP value.

[Randwolf]

"Originally, Voidwatch was designed as content for an alliance of 18 players. If you go in with 18, there will actually be a higher rate of reward than any other content in FFXI."

I've only done it with 18. If he means "reward" as any piece of crap S/E decides to throw in the box (dark steel ingot), then yes, I get 5 "rewards" each time I do it. If he means something worthwhile getting, he's full of crap.

[Olor]

I'm betting 99% of the people reading this thread are just skipping over your posts because they are so huge.

I only skip posts that are brainless, malicious or riddled with errors. Sparthos' posts have none of those qualities.

Crikes I read stuff here to pass the time, so I love long posts.

[Sparthos]

I'm betting 99% of the people reading this thread are just skipping over your posts because they are so huge.

They're free to. Im not holding a gun to anyone's head. :P


Sparthos, I think you're attributing a lot of thought-out malice towards things that are the result of thoughtless incompetence. Not that the motivation changes the end result, but it's still ridiculous to think that the Development Bros were cackling madly and drinking the blood of infants from the skulls of toddlers while planning out Sandworm or designating Entropy a (horrible) fTP value.

The problem is that this incompetence has been going on for years. How many years do you need before thoughtless incompetence becomes malice even if that isn't the intention? It's pretty clear me that some people within the staff just don't care to deal with outsiders thoughts be that for some cultural or personal reasons or perhaps it's just pesky company policy.

It reflects poorly on the company.

Make no mistake, I don't think the devs are evil, bad or maligned individuals and given the chance to meet them I'd probably laugh, smile and take pics with the staff but that doesn't change the fact that the "you're gonna eat those peas and freakin' like it" mentality has been destructive to the game. I've been a fan of SE for years and they get alot of things right (storylines, music, visuals) but boy are they dense on the customer service front and it is wrecking them.

SE had me sold that they'd changed their ways when Abyssea happened but it seems like celebrations were premature and the game is slowly going back to the old ways. I think most people can agree that the simple DO NOT WANT meme sums it up handily.

[Xellith]

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w13/Xellith/FFXILOGSalpha.jpg

This is the kinda thing that makes Shinryu dissapoint.

[Dart]

its like the chinese, just won't die

[Nynja]

Whats all this shit about Brew ruining abyssea? If you dont want to use Brews, dont use them. Some people got bored of doing the same monotonous 5-15 minute fight 50 times over. If someone wants to spend 1.4m cruor for 7 brews and knock off 50 mobs in 30 minutes instead of 50 mobs over 6 hours, big deal. If you could brew Fafhogg after your 10th+++++++++ kill, you know you would. The fight doesnt change.


I can 3box Dragua easy, I've done it, first time was annoying, second time I got used to it, 3rd and 4th and 5th was "k...this is starting to just waste time now for no apparent reason". So I brewed the rest of them down that I needed. Does that mean I'm a shitty player? No, it means I have too much cruor and would rather brew the remaining 45 Draguas down in 15 min instead of 6 hours. Same with Shinryu...I can kill it without Brew, but why bother? I can 3box KO 3 or 4 Shin's in Blunt time with Brew, or I can do one without brew, and possibly wipe because of stupid luck factors (I'm looking at you apoc ray).

[Meyi]

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w13/Xellith/FFXILOGSalpha.jpg

This is the kinda thing that makes Shinryu dissapoint.

Why can I only like this once?!

[Arcon]

Edit:
Again, I must apologize for my wall of text. I actually tried to keep it short, but this was the best I could come up with. I'm sorry.


Ah the old ad hominem attacks when you can't defend your points, guaranteed to happen in every forum discussion or your money back.

Did you only read that sentence of the post? Because right after that I went on to defend said points. I keep up an argumentative discussion and attack you personally at the same time. And ad hominem attacks aren't pointless. People point out other people's ad hominem attacks to assume immediate superiority in an argument, which, in itself is actually an ad hominem attack. However, our discussion is largely about a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. Many of the things we claim none of us can actually confirm, like what the development team thinks. Theoretically you could be right. Theoretically they could be a secret subsect of the Illuminati trying to dominate a part of the world (the JMMORPG-playing part). I cannot absolutely deny that. But in matters of opinion, attacking someone's credibility and exposing flaws in their personality is exactly what shows the extent of their judgement. I'm saying you're a conspiracy nut, and I'm telling you why. Because every example you give, you use it to describe malicious intent by the developers. Not once did you assume otherwise, or even see why it's out of their realm of influence. That means you're trying to put them in one box that fits your mentality, which means you're more likely to read the same pattern into different situations. Which means, you're reasoning is flawed. Which means you can't be believed when you say this bullshit. Booyah.


If quoting the truth makes me paranoid, I embrace it because what I state happens to be the truth.

No, you state your interpretation of the truth. You don't just state what's wrong and that the development team didn't do anything about it (which is often false, as in the matter of Salvage and kings, for example, both of which got adjusted despite what you claim), but you go one step further and declare it to be malicious intent on their part:


Stop making excuses for what was clearly a conscious decision by the devs to ignore botting and backstabbing.

Yeah, clearly...

Anyway, most of your post I basically already replied to in my previous one (see Salvage, kings, Dynamis), you just seemed to have put your fingers in your ears and started singing. One more thing I'd like to reply to, though, which I didn't address before:


With years of watching kings, the devs came to a conscious decision to design Dark Ixion/Sandworm the way they did with tons of knowledge that this was a bad idea all around and still they proceeded. I call that deliberately choosing to create a system that was designed to encouraging botting, drama and grief.

You can feel free to retort though.

Retort: They saw one of the most competitive "events" with a large player involvement with many sought-after items and though since it's so well camped, maybe people wanted more of it? Hint: Many people still do. Current king adjustments have been widely criticized and several threads about adding new world spawns were already created. It is something that many people actually want. Maybe not the casual majority, but that's why none of that was required. Dark Ixion didn't drop anything that couldn't be sold, same as the NMs from the Sandworm's Doomvoid areas.

I'm not saying it helped with the botting aspect, of course it didn't. World spawns will always be susceptible to botting. But people still want to do it, because some people like having to stand ready and wait for up to three hours for a NM to pop. As ridiculous as that may sound to you, who are you to deny them that?


And you're good at hurling insults rather than defending your points.

As I mentioned before, I do both. I admit sometimes it's a character flaw of mine. It takes a lot to grind my shit, but some people just bring it out in me. Congratulations.


You seem to continuously miss my point. SE had numerous opportunities to destroy the festering infection that was 3kings. Not create alternatives or sidegrade/downgrades - completely freakin' eradicate it. Yet what did they do?

First of all, I already mentioned that kings and HNMs in general had flaws. I explicitely excluded it from the things about oldXI I was talking about several times (like, at the very beginning of my previous post). I'm not sure why you're still going on about those. Especially because you're wrong. Because, secondly, why should they eradicate it when clearly many people didn't want that? You want to impose your opinion of gameplay on others so badly that you're looking for a scapegoat when it doesn't happen, or when the development team doesn't share your opinion. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to influence quite a bit of your personality. You assume your opinion is better than other people's. It's why you extrapolate these ideas from certain aspects of the game and exaggerate them to a point that they have no connections to reality. Like when you said that "Abyssea was universally lauded", which is completely untrue. You see some people agreeing with you, and you make it a factual statement. This would also nicely explain your paranoia.

Let me take an example from today to prove my point:



Sorry, but if someone says that one of the biggest game developers in the world deliberately and maliciously try to frustrate their paying customerbase, you're just full of it. You're just a conspiracy nut and nothing else.

Really? How about we take an example from today to prove my point.

DRKs have asked for Entropy to be boosted to make Scythe viable again in todays 2011 FFXI landscape. A fair point as Entropy is rather underwhelming and comes too close to Guillotine in damage. The DEV response?


• Scythe Weapon Skill “Entropy”
We will be making adjustments so that the amount of MP recovered will be within a range.
There will be cases where the MP recovered will be higher or possibly lower than now, but we are planning to adjust this so that the average will not change by much.

Oh look, MP adjustments no one asked for rather than addressing the core issues. Don't worry, it'll be tweaked somewhere in 2013.

Perfect example. No one asked for MP adjustments, yet that is what we get. You used this as an example to retort my statement that the developers wouldn't deliberately and maliciously try to frustrate their paying customerbase. How do you know that? How do you know they're not just stupid and don't get it? They saw people bitching about it, so they thought they'll adjust it, and the result was less than spectacular. They could have done this for any reason. They could have done it because they all play Impact casting DRKs. They could have done it, because none of them plays DRK and they assume MP plays a vital role to the job. They could have done this because they realize perfectly well that that's not what people asked for, but simply didn't want to give Scythe a great WS, but instead wanted people to use this situationally, when they're low on MP and actually need it.

I'm not saying either of these reasons makes much sense. But they all make a lot more sense than trying to read malicious intent into their actions. Yet, you choose the one that is most unlikely. How is that? Why would a company do that, deliberately try to alienate their playerbase? Do you think they get a kick out of it? I don't get it.


The problem is that this incompetence has been going on for years. How many years do you need before thoughtless incompetence becomes malice even if that isn't the intention?

Never. Period. Malice is defined as intention. If there's no malicious intention, it isn't malice. Ever.


It's pretty clear me that some people within the staff just don't care to deal with outsiders thoughts be that for some cultural or personal reasons or perhaps it's just pesky company policy.

Clear to you, we've established that. It's a psychological trait of conspiracy nuts to read patterns and intentions into every occasions that are unconnected. Completely normal.


It reflects poorly on the company.

No argument there. It's why SE's most loyal players are their hardest critics.


Make no mistake, I don't think the devs are evil, bad or maligned individuals and given the chance to meet them I'd probably laugh, smile and take pics with the staff but that doesn't change the fact that the "you're gonna eat those peas and freakin' like it" mentality has been destructive to the game.

Then you're a hypocrite. Painting them evil in absolutely every post, saying they don't care about players, they willingly push botting and RMT behaviour, yet you wanna be friends with them? Unless you admit being part of the botting/RMT group, that hardly makes sense.


SE had me sold that they'd changed their ways when Abyssea happened but it seems like celebrations were premature and the game is slowly going back to the old ways. I think most people can agree that the simple DO NOT WANT meme sums it up handily.

And after fifty fucking pages you still don't get it. The problem I have with you is that you (along with Runespider, and a few select "special" others) make it sound like SE read statistics showing that people universally like Abyssea (which is bullshit in itself, Abyssea has been criticized on all fronts, permanently and thoroughly ever since the forums were created) and then decided "No! We can't have happy customers! Let's make everything deliberately bad!"

I'm not trying to make you look stupid (right now). Seriously. This is actually the feeling I get when I'm reading your posts. You sound exactly like a guy standing on a cardboard box at a street corner shouting to the masses about how the government is keeping Roswell a secret, when in reality we've been trading with aliens for fifty years already and they brought us internet porn, and we could have had that thirty years sooner but the government wanted to see us suffer and make money off of us by selling their crappy magazines and VHS tapes. Can you see why it's hard for me to take you seriously?

[Krashport]

I can 3box Dragua easy, I've done it, first time was annoying, second time I got used to it, 3rd and 4th and 5th was "k...this is starting to just waste time now for no apparent reason". I guess some people just like playing with themselves and this is who SE is catering to. Final Fantasy XI is becoming more of an offline game that we're paying for. @Nynja I'm not saying your wrong playing the way you do, But whatever happened to /shouting or making/joining a linkshell why ya "Need" so many accounts?

[MarkovChain]

Abyssea ruined the game, now they can't release better gear. They have to do shit like VW that drops items that look like upgrades but in reality are downgrades.

[Runespider]

Thing I don't get is they complain how easy etc it is but until a year or so ago? they were making it easier with every update, +2 dropping off far more nms, more ??? for emp nms, cheap brews, continuing increased level caps with no changes to aby NMs.

The really sad part about this thread is that in the aby years there would of been an official response when it took off this way and possibly action (maybe even actually changing the drop system in VW and taking players words onboard for future content) under the new management system it will flat out ignored and they will carry on with the same mindset that made 14 a worldwide joke. VW will have some minor changes but they will never add a point system or anything that people really want purely because it's content akin to Kings (content that keeps people doing it for years due to crappy drop systems). I really don't think it will work that way this time though, it's already getting harder to fill alliances to do them.

VW is just like old kings, players begging for changes at every possible chance and Tanaka (at the vanafests) laughing off any and all suggestions and just adding more of em.

[Damane]

All I got from this page was brutal is too hard for casuals.

like seriously? its not like its hard to farm some ancient coins solo nowadays oO, besides one can find them in every bazaar

[Damane]

Abyssea ruined the game, now they can't release better gear. They have to do shit like VW that drops items that look like upgrades but in reality are downgrades.

i seriously fail to see how the bodys of VW are downgrades. Achieving 50% cure potency cap on sch is a pritty nice upgrade if you ask me. getting +12 enhancing skill on whm for boost-spells is one too. haveing -8 dmg taken on war body piece replaces every other body piece in your pdt/mdt sets

[Neisan_Quetz]

Pchan logic:

No one is going to ask Sch/Rdm to main heal, so the new cure pot body is useless. PDT body on war is useless since War either shouldn't be tanking so get a real tank, or you should get a daurdabla Brd to EA+Scherzo if you're so scared of dying.

lolabyssea lolbg etc. etc.



like seriously? its not like its hard to farm some ancient coins solo nowadays oO, besides one can find them in every bazaar

That was in response to Mishaa's posts, and it went on for abit from there.

[Hayward]

Abyssea ruined the game, now they can't release better gear. They have to do shit like VW that drops items that look like upgrades but in reality are downgrades.

Anyone with this mentality needs to find the nearest beach/golf course/playground and pound the sand there.

On what logic can you possibly base this argument beyond sheer sour grapes? What, in your minds, is so criminally wrong about someone being able to acquire +2 Empyrean armor without having to sell their firstborn? There's nothing stopping S-E from making better armor. The only thing now is whether the effort:reward ratio matches up to that of Abyssea and Voidwatch falls woefully short of that standard.

There are multiple reasons Abyssea became so popular, and the relative ease of acquiring Empyrean armor, as well as the overall stats of the full sets, is among these reasons. I sincerely believe that your beef, as well as other so-called elites', with this is that your over-inflated status as players was greatly diminished and your superiority complex took a major hit.

[Aarahs]

If you people like Abyssea so much, then stay there. No one is forcing you to move to other content. Are you aware of what the term 'optional' means?

[Neisan_Quetz]

Because it's impossible to finish pretty much everything you want from there. Or care to work on at least.

[Aarahs]

But Abyssea is so amazing! You can get your gear so quickly with minimal drama and XP so quickly! And it's the best gear for each job! Why would you ever want to do something else in the game?

[Greatguardian]

The best gear for each job part is probably the problem.

The Development Bros have never been very good at balancing sidegrade/upgrade gear from multiple events. A body piece from 2003 is still the best in the game, wut.

[Aarahs]

As opposed to WoW where every time they raise the level cap everything before is obsolete? No thanks.

[Sharnak]

If you people like Abyssea so much, then stay there. No one is forcing you to move to other content. Are you aware of what the term 'optional' means?

Just one question - So you glad and fun with VWNM or WoE so much now?

I always feel fail with ppl who catch on wrong spot on topics.
Topic is not about Abyssea itself but it's about how Producer feel about the way of FFXI form now. So you love to see gamble NM, which you need spend days-years to repeat keep doing it for just some item that it's not even goddy? becuse it's just you bad luck enough to not get it? because it all or none.

You really blind with hate that not feeling the dirction of FFXI now heading? And I say everytime i post that i'm not Abby defender, All content have good and bad spot, I just stand on the center and decide it form what happing in the overview of system not just form hate or love. What i want only can "FUN!" form playing game. not tortune form play it.

And again if you think about it "Quit it" Is not choice. It's just last thing you will do if you have no other else ways to do. I prefer to play this game well, why i play it for almost 8 years, I just hope it's can stay fun not just bring more tortune content for player in the bad time. And no any of developer really listen to what player ask. Just "It's not balance" "It's not possible", "It's beyond the limit", "It's will too easy", All word just cover one fact that Developer don't want to push more manpower to maintain this game and not even want to listen to player ask, so they just use most easy choice to develop conent, Put some new NM make it harder to get something then ppl will keep follow it like a dongky follow the carrot on fishrod. You just walk follow it not even can taste a bit of it. Until they satify on your work. Is that the content you want to see?

I really donno how long you play this game, how far you go, I play every content in this game. I must say I never found what content is bring me boring so fast like lastest VWNM and WoE. Even the bad abby that you name, I still fun with it for year. not just month.

So last word, If you like both of them so much I pardon you form my opp.

PS. I may want some gear form VWNM WoE But i nv find it's fun to play it., Even now I still feel fun to play sky with ppl even i not want anything form it.

[macross]

I just don't like how brew cost was lowered to 200k, that ruined everything.

It's fine to be gods with atma, just make the monsters harder and more challenging to go along with the stronger buffs you get. Nothing was really hard, that's the mistake. Should have added more rani type difficulty stuff.

As for VW difficulty, you can easily kill the nms low man, your drops just suffer.

[Sparthos]

Did you only read that sentence of the post? Because right after that I went on to defend said points. I keep up an argumentative discussion and attack you personally at the same time. And ad hominem attacks aren't pointless. People point out other people's ad hominem attacks to assume immediate superiority in an argument, which, in itself is actually an ad hominem attack. However, our discussion is largely about a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. Many of the things we claim none of us can actually confirm, like what the development team thinks. Theoretically you could be right. Theoretically they could be a secret subsect of the Illuminati trying to dominate a part of the world (the JMMORPG-playing part). I cannot absolutely deny that. But in matters of opinion, attacking someone's credibility and exposing flaws in their personality is exactly what shows the extent of their judgement. I'm saying you're a conspiracy nut, and I'm telling you why. Because every example you give, you use it to describe malicious intent by the developers. Not once did you assume otherwise, or even see why it's out of their realm of influence. That means you're trying to put them in one box that fits your mentality, which means you're more likely to read the same pattern into different situations. Which means, you're reasoning is flawed. Which means you can't be believed when you say this bullshit. Booyah.

Someones accusing me of not reading when I clearly stated in my last post that the possibility is completely open to me that the devs are bound by cultural or personal limitations that lead to the sheer volume of incompetent/poorly thought out decisions?

Seems like you want to peg me as a fringe lunatic when the reality is that I don't really think the devs are cackling in their offices when they develop content but with the decisions made they might as well do it because it reflects upon the playerbase as yet again SE going against the desires of the customers rather than coming to a compromise.


No, you state your interpretation of the truth. You don't just state what's wrong and that the development team didn't do anything about it (which is often false, as in the matter of Salvage and kings, for example, both of which got adjusted despite what you claim), but you go one step further and declare it to be malicious intent on their part:

In my world how quick you respond to an issue is where you score the points. SE doesn't get applauded for 'fixing' Salvage years after the fact (the initial cell chest was NOT a fix, that had to be put in) or finally making Kings poppable after the gear had finally become irrelevant due to Abyssean loot. They had the heads up for years both events packed terrible drop rates and intense cheating yet it was allowed to stay.

On the Kings decision I'm sticking to my guns that pride is why that system lasted as long as it did. I recall when people on BG really thought if they gave the devs a roadmap to fixing kings that they'd implement it yet they laughed it off when the idea was finally floated to them. How many fanfest questions about kings does it take to figure out something is wrong? Tanaka's outburst during the initial stages of XIV also give us some insight into his method of developing content - namely that he backs his ideas to a fault. Gonna claim incompetence again? The devs aren't deaf, dumb or blind which is what it would have taken to ignore all of the warning signs and concerns put forth by players on BG (through Bercus and ElmerthePointy), by fanfest participants and forum goers on the 'community' platforms.

Incompetence can take you far, but not that far I'm afraid.


Retort: They saw one of the most competitive "events" with a large player involvement with many sought-after items and though since it's so well camped, maybe people wanted more of it? Hint: Many people still do. Current king adjustments have been widely criticized and several threads about adding new world spawns were already created. It is something that many people actually want. Maybe not the casual majority, but that's why none of that was required. Dark Ixion didn't drop anything that couldn't be sold, same as the NMs from the Sandworm's Doomvoid areas.

You realize that many of the pro-Kings individuals were the ones willing to do anything to get that claim right? People in situations similar to my own were willing to use every underhanded tactic in order to one-up the competition and well into the period that these mobs were relevant, the cheating had become so blatant and the griefing so obvious that these styles of events should have been nipped in the bud, not intensified after years of opposition. SE often ignores the wishes of the yet on the subject of Kings they miraculously bent a knee to the will of the base? Cmon.

When $1500 bots were being sold just to beat people to a virtual dragon in a virtual tree, someone at SE should have made the connection that the content they were designing was pro-cheating, pro-RMT, anti-fair play and completely flew in the face of the TOS. I mean seriously - you could freakin' spook Dark Ixion so easily that it was almost as if the monster was intentionally designed to create griefing episodes. Sandworm would often not pop, drop nothing (despite having a 6hour window) and had issues using Doomvoid (MMM related or not). These mobs were designed years after the first two batches of world spawns and no one caught that before release?


I'm not saying it helped with the botting aspect, of course it didn't. World spawns will always be susceptible to botting. But people still want to do it, because some people like having to stand ready and wait for up to three hours for a NM to pop. As ridiculous as that may sound to you, who are you to deny them that?

World spawns fly in the face of the terms of service, especially when they are given the prominence the previous batches were which also happens to be the only way the world spawns become successful. Saw anyone caring about Jormungand? Tzee Xicu the Manifest? Hydra? Vrtra? Why? Because the drops sucked.

So you've got a choice here. Develop an HNM with good loot and it becomes camped, botted and turns into Aery 3: The Revenge or you create an HNM with soso/bad loot and it will fail on release because no one cares to waste the time. Seems like the logical decision is to move on from world spawns and onto more balanced ways of presenting content. I get it, most of the base gets it so why shouldn't SE have gotten it? They have more available data and more importantly the means to make changes.


First of all, I already mentioned that kings and HNMs in general had flaws. I explicitely excluded it from the things about oldXI I was talking about several times (like, at the very beginning of my previous post). I'm not sure why you're still going on about those. Especially because you're wrong. Because, secondly, why should they eradicate it when clearly many people didn't want that? You want to impose your opinion of gameplay on others so badly that you're looking for a scapegoat when it doesn't happen, or when the development team doesn't share your opinion. I'm not a psychologist, but it seems to influence quite a bit of your personality. You assume your opinion is better than other people's. It's why you extrapolate these ideas from certain aspects of the game and exaggerate them to a point that they have no connections to reality. Like when you said that "Abyssea was universally lauded", which is completely untrue. You see some people agreeing with you, and you make it a factual statement. This would also nicely explain your paranoia.

Lol. Kings should have been eradicated because it was... *drumroll* damaging the game as a whole. The people enjoying it aren't going to want it to end (they're profiting afterall) but SE should have be the one to realize that the whole game was suffering due to the method of designing everything as a sidegrade to kings gear which also happened to be the hotbed of cheating and RMT behavior. They basically allowed cheaters to be #1 while fair play was relegated to second or third sting gear that was often more difficult to obtain than sitting with the bots on in Aery.

Again I said "Point systems are universally lauded", not Abyssea and I'm willing to bet the Mog House on that.


Perfect example. No one asked for MP adjustments, yet that is what we get. You used this as an example to retort my statement that the developers wouldn't deliberately and maliciously try to frustrate their paying customerbase. How do you know that? How do you know they're not just stupid and don't get it? They saw people bitching about it, so they thought they'll adjust it, and the result was less than spectacular. They could have done this for any reason. They could have done it because they all play Impact casting DRKs. They could have done it, because none of them plays DRK and they assume MP plays a vital role to the job. They could have done this because they realize perfectly well that that's not what people asked for, but simply didn't want to give Scythe a great WS, but instead wanted people to use this situationally, when they're low on MP and actually need it.

Again with the incompetence excuses? How SE perceives DRK is irrelevant to the situation presented to them from the playerbase (NA and JP alike). Entropy needed a boost because it comes too close to being Guillotine/Insurgency with regards to damage was the complaint. If you pried further, DRKs would also tell you that the MP replenishment effect is 'fine' but really makes no sense since casting on DRK is largely ceremonial rather than crucial to the class. Your comments on SE playing DRK in those unorthodox methods would only further my repeatedly made point that they don't play the game and development is done in a vacuum.

That's an embarrassing concession no?

It is my suspicion that if SE had boosted Entropy damage-wise (or made Entropy more potent from test launch) that the MP replenishment issue would have been praised rather than bashed but yet again, SE completely blew it with regards to public relations by releasing a subpar WS and then rubbing salt into the wound by making MP replenishment the sole reason why anyone would use it. Did I mention the INT modifier is just laughable given every other class gets modifiers on-par with the theme of the class?


Then you're a hypocrite. Painting them evil in absolutely every post, saying they don't care about players, they willingly push botting and RMT behaviour, yet you wanna be friends with them? Unless you admit being part of the botting/RMT group, that hardly makes sense.

How does it not make sense? The developers could be great people off the clock and so I see to draw a distinction between criticizing their often baffling job behavior from their personal lives. Unlike the likes of Starcade, I don't think they're inherently evil or desire personal harm to befall them and yes, given the chance I'd shake hands, take pics and chum it up with the devs.

It still wouldn't change my opinion of them as developers for FFXI. It's not hypocrisy, not even close.

[Sparthos]

Oh and since this is a thread on Voidwatch, I'll leave my opinion on how I believe Voidwatch should have been presented. Make no mistake, I don't expect this to ever come to fruition nor do I believe I have all the facts.


SE could have simply created a point system with some amazing reward (make it glow for added obsession) tied to having an assload of points and that would have successfully created a bottleneck sufficient enough for the devs to work on future version updates. If they wanted to make it even more attractive to people, Heavy Metal could also be purchasable with these points and thus turn what is pretty much an unpopular event into something everyone w/could benefit from.

Something like a point spread of:
Dominion point style Armor (w/augments) - Low
Scroll that returns you to Voidwatch NPCs - Low
Some useful Voidwatch KI - Low
Heavy Metal - Low
Dominion point style Weapon (w/augments) - Medium
Heavy Metal Pouch - Medium
Staff/Club/Earring that returns you to Voidwatch NPCs - Medium
Some Rare Gear piece - High
Glowy weapon 1 - Extremely High
Glowy armor 1 - Extremely High
The monsters HQ drop (like Pil's Toci's Harness or Voidwrought's Radiant Mail) - Extremely High
One piece of a ??? Badass set - Highest (<< here's where you squeeze out the grind)

Those ores and logs wouldn't be half as bad if you know beating a few Pil would get you that much closer to finishing the 1500 plates or getting to another goal. The low drop Toci's wouldn't even be so bad if you had a better carrot on that stick to keep you going. You could also spread the points based on region to promote doing different runs to accumulate points in different regions.

The issue of leaders seizing loot would also vanish with everyone receiving their own points.

[Nynja]

I guess some people just like playing with themselves and this is who SE is catering to. Final Fantasy XI is becoming more of an offline game that we're paying for. @Nynja I'm not saying your wrong playing the way you do, But whatever happened to /shouting or making/joining a linkshell why ya "Need" so many accounts?

Because if you want something done right, you do it yourself. I've seen the people who resort to shouts for help...theres a reason they're still shouting for help and I've got my stuff done.

Though I have shouted for certain things...it wasnt help. Doing seals NM's and I only need 1...first I ask in LS if anyone is interested in any that I'm not lotting, then I shout to see if I can reduce the waste. But help...no lol.

[Aarahs]

Just one question - So you glad and fun with VWNM or WoE so much now?

Yes, actually. I do like VWNM and WoE. It's much better than abyssea where 90% of the time I need to turn away from the mob so we can proc. However, I haven't done a ton of those fights yet due to two things; first, I'm a casual player and only have about 4 hours a day I can play. Second, I'm a completionist. I will go through everything until I get all of it I want. Just to give you an example, I'm currently working on dynamis. I'm 96/120 on all relic gear and plan to complete my collection. I also am still working on Nyzul and only about 8/20 on those weapons. When I finish that, I'll move on to captain rank. I could go on, but typing on a phone is a pain.

I will happily grind my way through WoE and VW until I get everything I want. I simply haven't gotten to it yet outside of my linkshell events. Easy gear is easy gear and, as this thread has proven wonderfully, once gear has become easy enough to obtain, you might get excluded if for some reason you don't have it. That's something happening in WoW. They call it gearscore.