How to fix pld as tank??

[Ritsuka]

I think one good idea a frined told me sense i never realy did level pld myself but they suggest giving pld its own version of pervoke. Make it stronger then war's that would prob let it take hate more effectly

[Tsukino_Kaji]

Voke wont matter when the DD he's trying to keep hate off of has max hate as well.

[darkvision]

SE already stated that PLD will never get its own provoke type ability

[Arcon]

How to fix pld as tank??

PLD isn't broken.

[Tamoa]

PLD isn't broken.

This.

Pld just isn't as effective a tank as it used to be due to DDs having become extremely powerful. Especially in abyssea obviously. A provoke ability for pld isn't going to fix that at all. It's also not even needed as tank for most things these days.

[Zerich]

Have all of the DD's pull back on their WS' and DMG, have SATA return, and only nuke on MB's!

Fixed!

[Sonshou]

I think PLD need job ability or spell to hate reset.

Monsters are doing this to mess up with PLD tanks, so why can't PLD take this matter in their own hands?

No matter how much enmity increase for PLD, as long as DD hitting hard, it turn back into the old cycle. and THey cannot possibly make PLD a better DD, becoz it is how they define PLD.

Then a better way to make PLD better is to let PLD hold the power to reset hate for their own advantage. No matter how much accumulate enmity the DD put on the mob, if PLD can wipe them all at their will, they can take control back.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Monsters being cheap is fine because the computer is a cheating bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComputerIsACheatingBastard).

I don't think I should have to explain why your idea is kinda.. broken if a Pld was able to never lose hate ever.

[Deadvinta]

Paladins can be fixed by having its class exclusively raise the cap in enmity generation, along with having an ability like enmity douse to be used on allies. Some harsh drop in enmity from an ally, maybe ten minute recast.

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Paladins can be fixed by having its class exclusively raise the cap in enmity generation, along with having an ability like enmity douse to be used on allies. Some harsh drop in enmity from an ally, maybe ten minute recast.

Then the job becomes broken.. It basically would allow PLD to always tank, while the DD's have little to fear of dying outside of AoE. This is not the way it should be.

[saevel]

Honestly they should get their own enmity transfer abilities like THF does.

Anyhow, it's extremely dishonestly to talk about hate cap without also talking about the DIFFERENT hate caps. There are two hate metrics that are added together to determine who has enmity. CE is the hate you get from damage and caps at 10000, it's ridiculously easy to cap and only goes down when you take damage. VE is the hate generated by abilities like provoke and some spells. VE has the same cap as CE but goes down at a rate of 60 units per second. Since every can cap CE easily, VE should be where tanking is focused on. PLD should get a job trait that lowers VE decay rate along with a set of abilities that give periodic VE generation in excess of the decay rate.

[Greatguardian]

CE is ridiculously easy to cap compared to VE? On Paladin?

lol.

Practically any WS or JA will cap VE after one or two uses, and it's extraordinarily easy to maintain VE via melee swings.

On the flipside, Paladin has no half-decent CE generating abilities. That is, unless you consider Flash's average 240 and maximum 360 CE per 23 seconds "good".

CE is primarily generated through damage. Damage is not something PLD excels at. Thus, CE is not something PLD excels at. It can cap it, sure, who the hell can't cap Enmity? But it's certainly not a class exclusive thing - it's harder to deal with CE on Paladin than any other melee job.

Also, Provoke is net negative Enmity. Stop asking for it.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Then the job becomes broken..

Wouldn't be the first!

[Alderin]

PLD is fine. Build an Ochain.

For all the people about to Q.Q "awwz but i shouldn't have to build an empyrean for my job to be useless."

Wake up, unless you're a mage job - end game content as it is pretty much requires some form of end game weapon.

You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.

[Arcon]

You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.

Not sure who you party with, but no. And building an Ochain is still a bitch. Either way, no.

[Kriegsgott]

PLD: i'm hungry !
"Insert PLD Ability Name Here" - Consumes the Enmity of Party Members at the cost of TP/MP/HP whatever
PLD: tasty!

(recast 3-5-10min?)

[Brolic]

PLD is fine. Build an Ochain.

For all the people about to Q.Q "awwz but i shouldn't have to build an empyrean for my job to be useless."

Wake up, unless you're a mage job - end game content as it is pretty much requires some form of end game weapon.

You get invited to VW as a Widowmaker WAR? Hell no you won't, they will pick the Ukon WAR standing next to you.
i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars

[KoKoMonsta]

Ya, i agree with the idea of raising hate cap for PLD exclusively... While DDs are able to reach 100% hate cap, PLD should be able to boost up to 110%, its not a huge margain but if would help with hate control and still allow DDs to pull hate. Big problem is, as PLD takes dmg, hate is slowly decreasing; so if cap was increased to 110%, taking dmg would be more suddly and allow pld more time to get hate w/o dropping below 100% while dds are maxed out at 100%. SE can implement that throw merits, like a Job trait you can merit. It could be a meritable job trait similar to overwhelm, where once u merit it it remains active all times.

Ex: Merit catagory 3 - "Escutcheon" Potential emnity cap is raised by 2% with each merit implanted.

So if you can use 5/5 merits, it can increase to 110%.

PLD isnt broken, but more like most DD's dont take in consideration of hate control. Seems like DDs forgot uses of /thf and mages starting nukes with lower tier rather than spammin T5 spells from start of a fight. Hate control doesnt always come from the pld.. but the ppl around him, thats why emn is so seperate from hate. Not truely factual but just my opinion lol

[Arcon]

i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars

Not completely, but it's a good start. Shield Mastery allows PLD to gain TP rapidly with Ochain, and Chant du Cygne or Requiescat will be able to put out good ish numbers. That way, PLD will be able to gain both VE and CE fast enough, and not only that, but by taking very little damage they'll also lose little enmity.


Ya, i agree with the idea of raising hate cap for PLD exclusively... While DDs are able to reach 100% hate cap, PLD should be able to boost up to 110%, its not a huge margain but if would help with hate control and still allow DDs to pull hate.

Wrong, DDs wouldn't be able to pull hate, unless PLD takes massive damage to take out a good portion of its CE. Apart from that PLD would keep hate indefinitely. Raising hate cap is no solution.

[Alderin]

Not sure who you party with, but no. And building an Ochain is still a bitch. Either way, no.

Hmmm... That was my point exactly?


i didnt realize ochains kept mobs off vere mnks or ukko wars

They deflect them like a mirror yo... Didn't say that though - Enmity issues are a complete different kettle of fish.

I will admit, I am guilty of originally reading the title and assumed this was going to be one of those "fix PLD so I can tank without building an empyrean or relic" threads that we got riddled with. So I do semi-retract my original post after reading this thread a little more.


PLD enmity is an issue and always will be with the current hate system. I believe the only real solution would be to completely remove non-decaying enmity and give all enmity some way to decay over time (say if a Ukon war hits the hate cap, their previous "non decay enmity" would start to decay. Basically meaning that if a DD really wants to lose hate, best way would be to disengage and wait while their enmity starts to deplete. If enmity was totally shared amoung the alliance on a percentage basis, without a non-decay variable then it would allow a PLD to hold hate better.

Lets assume we have 4 jobs already on a hate list - with equal share of 25% PLD / WAR / WHM / BLM.. As the PLD keeps building hate, the enmity towards the other 3 would decrease (PLD gets to say 30%, so the WAR, WHM, BLM slowly deplete at an even rate. If say the WAR decided to start zerging, the other 3 job's enmity would start to decay. The advantage of a PLD at this rate would be the ability to effectively "steal" the Warrior's hate by decaying it once the WAR disengages or slows it's damage.

I am not entirely sure if this is kind of what is already in place, but the fact that there is an actual "hate cap" that no one player can have more non-decay enmity then another is beyond me... I say remove non-decay enmity and base it purely on decaying enmity. I am no programmer - nor do I know how enmity is really "modelled" but removing non-decay enmity makes more sense to me.

Anyway that is how to "improve" PLD's ability to hold hate in my eyes.

[Rorald]

Simple suggestion to losing hate as pld cure the dd especially the 1 with most hate, then provoke/flash or whatever ability like sentinel. Hate does reset alot on certain monsters but it's not hard to get it back.

[Alerith]

Simple suggestion to losing hate as pld cure the dd especially the 1 with most hate, then provoke/flash or whatever ability like sentinel. Hate does reset alot on certain monsters but it's not hard to get it back.

The problem is that once you all reach the cap, the mob is going to be spinning like a top as it faces each person who has capped hate.

Once this happens, PLD practically becomes a burden on the party because not only are you not fully tanking the mob, but you also aren't dealing any good damage.

Damage mitigation and survivability have never been the issue. PLD is honestly not broken. The issue has been that PLD don't have the damage output to make them appealing for a larger group. Unless your DD are willing to hold back, you aren't going to be a successful tank, through no fault of your own.

My suggestion is to follow the voidwatch trend. Keep introducing mobs and NMs that will utterly destroy any DD that tries to tank it, and MAKE people hold back so that PLD can do it's job.

[Neisan_Quetz]

That would have been the case, then SE screwed even that up by giving an alternative, and refreshing temps on weakness procs.

[Greatguardian]

That would have been the case, then SE screwed even that up by giving an alternative, and refreshing temps on weakness procs.

Pretty much. I "tank" Voidwatch NMs on COR half the time since job doesn't really matter when you're riding >9,000 temps and Fanatic's.

[Kriegsgott]

My suggestion is to follow the voidwatch trend. Keep introducing mobs and NMs that will utterly destroy any DD that tries to tank it, and MAKE people hold back so that PLD can do it's job.

like the good old sky days i'm up for it!

[Alkimi]

Monsters being cheap is fine because the computer is a cheating bastard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheComputerIsACheatingBastard).

I don't think I should have to explain why your idea is kinda.. broken if a Pld was able to never lose hate ever.

Perhaps not 'Never lose hate' but some sort of resistance or immunity to hate reset would actually prove useful against newer mobs that like to be a dick.

[Rorald]

Pld Can do good numbers with excaliber and Almace if you have the right gear swaps. I see many pld weaponskill without gear swapping doing crap damage and losing hate instantly to a dd. I myself and Awsome have never had too many issues with losing hate. When we do, it is only for like 2-3 seconds then mob is back on us. Then again we played pld for like 8-9+ years and know the in and out of the job, not to mention Aegis and Ochain make the fights extremely easy.

[Brolic]

Pld Can do good numbers with excaliber and Almace if you have the right gear swaps. I see many pld weaponskill without gear swapping doing crap damage and losing hate instantly to a dd. I myself and Awsome have never had too many issues with losing hate. When we do, it is only for like 2-3 seconds then mob is back on us. Then again we played pld for like 8-9+ years and know the in and out of the job, not to mention Aegis and Ochain make the fights extremely easy.


i was with you till you said excalibur

[Greatguardian]

Excal really isn't that bad, to be honest. It never was. KOR is just shit. Vorpal spamming can still be pretty solid and the add effects add up.

[Brolic]

i know, just having a go at Rorald, he's actually one of the best plds across all servers.

[Ritsuka]

Ya that might work but your thinking ppl know how to play there job which almost all don't anymore lol

[Nightfyre]

My suggestion is to follow the voidwatch trend. Keep introducing mobs and NMs that will utterly destroy any DD that tries to tank it, and MAKE people hold back so that PLD can do it's job.
Never happened.

[Tsukino_Kaji]

My suggestion is to follow the voidwatch trend. Keep introducing mobs and NMs that will utterly destroy any DD that tries to tank it, and MAKE people hold back so that PLD can do it's job.Mnk dose pretty well on a lot of them actualy.

Is what you do is take teh hate off of cure IV, lower it's cost a little, then give pld a trait that gives it more hate for curing.

[Khajit]

Eh. Pld has it's own little niche now. It's there for when you don't actually want to kill the monster. Or at least before stupid procs are landed.Using anything else might accidentally result in people beating the monster.

[Brolic]

actually pld's niche is for new mobs till people figure out a quick and easy way to kill it.

[Khajit]

The "quick and easy way to kill it" has a suspiciously high tendency to be the exact same way it was for the mobs before so i seriously doubt that counts.

[Babekeke]

The quick and easy way to kill it often results in not getting full procs. Which noone wants in VW with the awful drop rate.

[Khajit]

The quick and easy way to kill it often results in not getting full procs. Which noone wants in VW with the awful drop rate.

That's only if you suck unless you're talking about t1 city mobs. Synchronotic blitz bonuses and EV procs make it ridiculously easy to get capped while killing asap in a pickup. Even without the ev procs i've been seeing pickups capping easily while killing fairly fast.

[zataz]

heres a idea why not for example say hate cap is 30 why not just up it for pld to 40 so as long as the pld does his job hate could not be pulled off him

[Arcon]

heres a idea why not for example say hate cap is 30 why not just up it for pld to 40 so as long as the pld does his job hate could not be pulled off him

Exactly, no one at all could pull hate off the PLD. What's the point of that?

[JeremyCarbuncle]

Here is how my Linkshell has been doing things lately...
PLD > voke, flash, 2k WS.
before the pld swings his sword a second time.
BLMS nuke for 8k
melees WS for 5k+
and then
WHM expends all mp on melee and BLMs
all the melee and blms die
PLD holds monster for while with only his cures.
Wipe.....

So why did we wipe...? cuz the pld is broke?

No and yes.
No because the DD and BLMs are acting like a bunch of valkrum dunes flunkies.
Yes because zerging from start to finish is just how people play, and SE needs to compensate PLD for that fact.

[Neisan_Quetz]

There is just... so much wrong... in that post...

[SpankWustler]

So why did we wipe...?

Because based on the numbers you provide for the Black Mages, you're apparently using an alliance format and a Paladin tank for stuff in Abyssea. The malevolent God who rules over Final Fantasy XI is justly and rightly punishing you for doing such a vile thing.

Because if it's something in Voidwatch instead, none of those actions made a !! appear over the monster's head and people forgot to drink their Fanatic's Drinks in the first place.

[JeremyCarbuncle]

Lol I agree but If using a PLD to tank for anything is wrong in the eyes of Square Enix,
then they need to scrap thear whole developement team.

just fire the whole lot of them.

[Ophannus]

Give PLD a provoke type ability that's similar to the Ballista version(forces the opponent to target you for a set duration). Could be 10-15 seconds with a 1min recast, locks hate on you regardless of enmity.

[Tildarus]

This.

Pld just isn't as effective a tank as it used to be due to DDs having become extremely powerful. Especially in abyssea obviously. A provoke ability for pld isn't going to fix that at all. It's also not even needed as tank for most things these days.

I know this thread is a little necro, but this is why PLD is broke. PLD is not even needed. Why have the job in the game at all?

DDer with temp items, atmas and a decent WHM can tank just fine. The thing is DDer have their own version of tank in an indirect way, it's called kill it before it kills you and a PLD can take a long time to kill even EP mobs without good gear. THF on the other hand I just go out and burn mobs and rarely if ever get hit.

[Agerknux]

Give PLD a provoke type ability that's similar to the Ballista version(forces the opponent to target you for a set duration). Could be 10-15 seconds with a 1min recast, locks hate on you regardless of enmity.

Why do people keep suggesting this? This won't make pld any more relevant.

[Feliciaa]

Lower PLDs overall damage resistance and greatly increase it's DD output. Pure Turtle tanking sounds great on paper but it does not work in MMOs.

[Unleashhell]

Lower PLDs overall damage resistance and greatly increase it's DD output. Pure Turtle tanking sounds great on paper but it does not work in MMOs.

....... Did you really just say that?

[Unleashhell]

PLD doesn't need anything else, what PLD needs are people that actually know how to play it, and utilize the job abilities correctly. I see PLD that blow their load using almost all their job abilities at the start of a fight, then have nothing for minutes past that and loose hate immediately. Learn to space out some of your job abilities and you should be able to hold hate very well. Merits also make a difference, as well as gear swaps.

PLD has enough offensive weapons that can be utilized (Excalibur, Almace, Burtang), and none of those are not hard to obtain these days. Burtgang is just time consuming because of all the requirements, it is not HARD to get. If you are going to be lazy with your gear and efforts, don't expect sympathy from people when you cant do your job as a PLD.

Aegis and Ochain are also not hard to obtain. Before people say Ochain is hard, its not. Its time consuming because of the Colorless Souls part. Getting colorful abyssites and tier 3 VNMs is not hard, its time consuming, there is a difference. Azdaja is also not hard at all and can be low manned very easily. I would suggest putting the time into getting one or both of these shields. If you are serious about PLD, your focus should be on getting both of these shields because each help in different situations. The new AH shields as well as VW shields are also other options.

So please people stop posting about PLD being broke, its not. Learn about Haste, Enmity, and gear swaps for various weaponskills and situations and people shouldn't have all these issues with PLD being broke.

[Feliciaa]

With PLD's current damage resistance via gear,JAs, and spells it has very high survivability. That's why I think it would be best to lower it's overall damage resistance and give it more DD potential.

Excalibur, Almace, Burtang are all very nice swords to have. However, DD now output soo much damage compared to PLD that it's impossible for them to maintain hate. Most DD can pull hate from a PLD in 2 WSs or the DD have to greatly hold back which should not be the case.

Granted DD should not be able to go all out without pulling hate but PLD should do enough damage that the game moves away from: DD run in WS > DD run away > DD run in WS

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Excalibur, Almace, Burtang... Aegis and Ochain

FGSFDS
/sigh

[Unleashhell]

FGSFDS
/sigh

Let me guess... those are hard to get?

[Arcon]

Let me guess... those are hard to get?

Yes. Also, your post was largely garbage. Burtgang is not, in any way, shape or form a DD weapon. Excalibur can be good, but it's also far from best. And none of them are easy to get. Yes, it is time consuming. Extremely time consuming. The same as it always was. None of it was ever hard to get, so why didn't you just say "oh just get an aegis" at 75? In this case, time equals effort, because you have to be on the lookout for currency or alexandrite all the time while farming Dynamis or Salvage daily (preferably both) and then find more time to camp VNMs and get people to help you with Azdaja, and if you're stuck duoing like I am, then it is fucking hard. The VNM part was easy compared to it.

Your post basically said "you're a noob if you don't wanna invest one year of your life farming daily to obtain these items so you can play your job properly".

Also, nothing wrong with blowing your abilities at the start. PLD still has trouble capping CE quickly, unlike other jobs, and Sentinel enhances enmity gain. What other abilities do you wanna keep for later? The only useful ones to keep for certain situations are Rampart and possibly Shield Bash. Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, Sentinel, Divine Emblem and Sepulcher you can use at any time, so why not use them at start? None of them will help you with regaining enmity in case you lost it, and the sooner you use them the sooner they'll be available again.

[Camiie]

Aegis and Ochain are also not hard to obtain.

If one needs a legendary class weapon/shield to even attempt to fill a job's primary role, then that job is broken in the worst possible way. The difficulty in obtaining them is irrelevant. Despite how things have turned out these shields are not intended for everyone, so they should not be in any way required to do one's job effectively.

[Vivivivi]

Have all of the DD's pull back on their WS' and DMG, have SATA return, and only nuke on MB's!

Fixed!

Agree 100%

Often times it is not the fault of the PLD for loosing hate, but of the DDers or Nukers for just full attacking on everything. I see this often in pickup groups, but rarely in parties formed with friends. Thief works to keep enmity on the Paladin, DDers keep a watchful eye on enmity generation and TP feed, and Mages buff/enfeeble, and strike with a nuke at the right time.

Aside from a few specific NMs with hate resets, rarely does the Paladin actually loose the hate, and for those particular NMs, we generally don't use a Paladin as a tank XD

Don't hate the game, hate the players!

[Vivivivi]

If one needs a legendary class weapon/shield to even attempt to fill a job's primary role, then that job is broken in the worst possible way. The difficulty in obtaining them is irrelevant. Despite how things have turned out these shields are not intended for everyone, so they should not be in any way required to do one's job effectively.

Aegis and Ochain are only really requirements for some end-game content, I've seen Paladins without these do just fine in places like Dynamis and Abyssea who now how to play the job, and have otherwise good gear and shield skill. Also, in Abyssea you have atma to offset the lack of these two shields.

[Zerich]

Agree 100%

Often times it is not the fault of the PLD for loosing hate, but of the DDers or Nukers for just full attacking on everything. I see this often in pickup groups, but rarely in parties formed with friends. Thief works to keep enmity on the Paladin, DDers keep a watchful eye on enmity generation and TP feed, and Mages buff/enfeeble, and strike with a nuke at the right time.

Aside from a few specific NMs with hate resets, rarely does the Paladin actually loose the hate, and for those particular NMs, we generally don't use a Paladin as a tank XD

Don't hate the game, hate the players!

As much as this would help PLD become more than an add-holder for current end-game events, it's just not as reasonable of a strategy to use when you're stunning and zerging the NM to paste.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Agree 100%

Often times it is not the fault of the PLD for loosing hate, but of the DDers or Nukers for just full attacking on everything. I see this often in pickup groups, but rarely in parties formed with friends. Thief works to keep enmity on the Paladin, DDers keep a watchful eye on enmity generation and TP feed, and Mages buff/enfeeble, and strike with a nuke at the right time.

Aside from a few specific NMs with hate resets, rarely does the Paladin actually loose the hate, and for those particular NMs, we generally don't use a Paladin as a tank XD

Don't hate the game, hate the players!

You have no clue how enmity works.


Aegis and Ochain are only really requirements for some end-game content, I've seen Paladins without these do just fine in places like Dynamis and Abyssea who now how to play the job, and have otherwise good gear and shield skill. Also, in Abyssea you have atma to offset the lack of these two shields.

You really have no clue what you are talking about, listing 2 events where pld isn't seriously needed for pretty much anything.

[hiko]

how to fix pld as tank?
step 1: fix damage enmity!
step 2: add mobs where you need a tank!(unzergable, high dmg/attack speed/accuracy)

[Unleashhell]

Yes. Also, your post was largely garbage. Burtgang is not, in any way, shape or form a DD weapon. Excalibur can be good, but it's also far from best. And none of them are easy to get. Yes, it is time consuming. Extremely time consuming. The same as it always was. None of it was ever hard to get, so why didn't you just say "oh just get an aegis" at 75? In this case, time equals effort, because you have to be on the lookout for currency or alexandrite all the time while farming Dynamis or Salvage daily (preferably both) and then find more time to camp VNMs and get people to help you with Azdaja, and if you're stuck duoing like I am, then it is fucking hard. The VNM part was easy compared to it.

Your post basically said "you're a noob if you don't wanna invest one year of your life farming daily to obtain these items so you can play your job properly".

Also, nothing wrong with blowing your abilities at the start. PLD still has trouble capping CE quickly, unlike other jobs, and Sentinel enhances enmity gain. What other abilities do you wanna keep for later? The only useful ones to keep for certain situations are Rampart and possibly Shield Bash. Berserk, Aggressor, Warcry, Sentinel, Divine Emblem and Sepulcher you can use at any time, so why not use them at start? None of them will help you with regaining enmity in case you lost it, and the sooner you use them the sooner they'll be available again.


Relics are not hard to get these days at all. You actually think farming dynamis daily for a relic is hard? BSTs have been doing it solo since the revamp and still pull 250-400 coins per day. You going to tell me that farming for 1-2 months in dynamis on EP mobs is hard? Doing trials and vnm's then doing Bria and Sobek is hard? Really????

Its sad to see people say these things are hard to get these days when they continue to use the excuse time = hard.

Your level 99.... If level 75 content is still too hard for you guys you might want to go play another job....or another game. Seriously level 75 content should not be hard for you guys. I'm not trying to be harsh but seriously none of this stuff is hard to get. You can't tell me none of you don't have a couple friends to do ANY of this content with? All of the relics are soloable, friends helping out just makes it go faster. Empyrean's are duoable with a WHM and a DD.

Once again time does not equal hard....

[Neisan_Quetz]

It's less hard and more the fact even with those weapons Pld is still mostly mediocre and only really useful for adds in VW. You're putting even more effort into Pld for it to be less useful than certain jobs that aren't considered pure tanks because pure tanks are not essential for winning many fights (excluding the aforementioned adds/oddball setups).

[Unleashhell]

If one needs a legendary class weapon/shield to even attempt to fill a job's primary role, then that job is broken in the worst possible way. The difficulty in obtaining them is irrelevant. Despite how things have turned out these shields are not intended for everyone, so they should not be in any way required to do one's job effectively.

You don't need to have legendary weapons, but with the ease of getting them why wouldn't someone who takes PLD seriously be going after these items? This OP is how to fix PLD, it doesn't need fixing. People said PLD offensively is poor and needs something to help with DoT, in comes your legendary weapons. Dont want to do one of those your have other options at the AH or magian trial weapons, hell even the WoE weapon people can go after.


The difficulty in obtaining them is irrelevant. People on here seem to think it is. They think time = hard to get.
Time does NOT = hard to get.
Effort does NOT = hard to get

Whats even worse are the people that their main job is 99 PLD and say this stuff is "hard" to get. SE made these legendary weapons easy to get now by leaving the difficulty of old content for level 75 players such as dynamis and Salvage for examples. If SE still wanted these items to be rare, they would have upped the level on ALL mobs in dynamis and increased the level of all mobs in Salvage. They didn't do that. SE wants people to have these weapons. We are playing an MMO, where the general concept is to work together. People have seam to have forgotten that.

[Unleashhell]

It's less hard and more the fact even with those weapons Pld is still mostly mediocre and only really useful for adds in VW. You're putting even more effort into Pld for it to be less useful than certain jobs that aren't considered pure tanks because pure tanks are not essential for winning many fights (excluding the aforementioned adds/oddball setups).

True, but... There are some of us out there that just love their PLD and would like to use it as much as possible. Is it efficient? Not really when everyone just wants things dead fast. But either way, cant fault people that like certain jobs and want to see it be more involved in all aspects of the game.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm not faulting anyone who goes to make their pld the best it can be, what I was guessing the issue many people had is how even with these weapons Pld can't exactly fulfill the role of being a 'tank', with various factors negating the need for a Pld, mainly zerg tactics temp items the current enmity system and/or weak monsters you don't need damage mitigation on the level of a Pld for. That's why Pld is relatively useless outside of holding adds and some odd setups most don't care to look into.

[Arcon]

Once again time does not equal hard....

Yes, it does, making everything you said invalid. Time investment is the only challenge the game has at this point. It's not hard as in difficult, but it is hard as in bothersome. Dynamis isn't hard. Getting a relic is. It requires continuous effort and dedication. You can't just say "Hey, let's get an Aegis!" and you have it. It's not a Widowmaker. You have to wait months and play daily for hours to get it. And that's just for one single item, which will do nothing if you don't get a weapon for it as well. This is not for casual players. A vast majority of casual players, even good and smart players, will not get this. That doesn't make them bad. It just means they're not willing to put the effort in. It's for hardcore players. Hence, hard. As easy as the event itself may be, that has nothing at all to do with the ease of obtaining relics.

[Unleashhell]

Yes, it does, making everything you said invalid. Time investment is the only challenge the game has at this point. It's not hard as in difficult, but it is hard as in bothersome. Dynamis isn't hard. Getting a relic is. It requires continuous effort and dedication. You can't just say "Hey, let's get an Aegis!" and you have it. It's not a Widowmaker. You have to wait months and play daily for hours to get it. And that's just for one single item, which will do nothing if you don't get a weapon for it as well. This is not for casual players. A vast majority of casual players, even good and smart players, will not get this. That doesn't make them bad. It just means they're not willing to put the effort in. It's for hardcore players. Hence, hard. As easy as the event itself may be, that has nothing at all to do with the ease of obtaining relics.

That logic makes no sense what so ever, how is time hard? 2 hours a day doing dynamis is hard? See this is the problem these days with the game, everyone wants everything now. If people have to wait for more then 1 day to get something, its considered hard, and they argue and argue post after post to try and convince people something is hard to get. Its amazing how lazy people are these days. People can log in and play for 1-3 hours and still get something done but no, they would rather sit in their mog house or stand around in Jeuno hoping to get a party for seals and +2 items instead of going out and actually doing something.

For you to say that investing time to get a reward is hard makes everything you say invalid. If you are one of those that can only play for an hour or 2 a day and say that your little time makes things hard for you to get, that doesn't mean the rest of the people are under the same time constraints as you and should be grouped into the same category. If people wanted a relic that badly or and empyrean they should have started them after the dynamis revamp and way back when the 1st or 2nd abyssea add-ons came out. For the amount of time that has passed since those things changed in FFXI, people that are still complaining how hard weapons are to get. If they spent less time complaining on forums and more time investing into actually being productive and working towards getting something done they would have had more then one legendary weapons done by this point.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

That logic makes no sense what so ever, how is time hard?

The answer to that question depends on how much I'm getting paid for my time.

[Arcon]

Stop making this about me, it's not. I have no problems with Dynamis. I made countless Empys with my LS and working on several relics now. But that is how most casual players see it these days. And I'm not talking about hardcore players who play casually, there's a difference. I'm talking about the people who still don't have all their +2 and possibly +1 gear. And despite what people from the casual hardcore scene will have you think, there's a ton of those people. Getting a relic is probably one of the hardest things to do in the game right now (disregarding that it's a still lot easier than it used to be). Whether you choose to not call it hard because it's not difficult, that's up to you. It's still nowhere near a valid suggestion for fixing a job, because it means that a large portion of the playerbase will not be able to properly play the job, period.

[Unleashhell]

Look, people say all the time what suggestions to make PLD more useful. I am giving my own suggestions on how to make the job better. You get one 1 hand people saying make PLD more a DD type, its not meant to be a DD. On the other hand people want hate lock abilities which makes no sense to me. But for those that want more DD output, you have the choice of getting a Relic, Empyrean, Mythic, or WoE weapon to help with hate control along with overall DoT output. Each has its purposes and situations that they are most useful. FFXI is also not FFXI-Abyssea, there is alot more to the game then Abyssea. People are still to this day referring to the game as Abyssea only when Abyssea is a smaller part of the overall game. Take away your Cruor buffs and Atmas and think about what benefits a PLD more, an AH weapon or a legendary weapon?

I'm not here to say I'm right your wrong type of thing, I hate reading those posts. But I am here to say that these things are not hard to make, they are time consuming. Now if you have a decent sized LS and they are cooperative and help each other, you can do Almace in a weekend (camping NMs obviously can be done another time, but you can kill an NM then after for 2 hours). Now people that are in a smaller LS, it might take a few more days or a week if that. Relics do take alot more time and dedication to make, but that aren't hard to do. I have someone in my LS that did dynamis everyday with a WHM and farmed cruor when he was done from exp pts, NMs etc. He did an Aegis from start to finish in 3 weeks. Between using his cruor from Abyssea to NPC items and farming actual currency in dynamis he finished his Aegis. Now I'm not gonna say everyone should do this, or everyone has to do it this way but when I'm saying is there are ways to do relics in a short amount of time. Time and dedication of the individual player is where the reward pays off.

I know that sorta seems off topic but it goes back to my 1st paragraph, where people wanted PLD to have more offensive capabilities. SE made these weapons easy to get. If anything Mythics are way more time consuming over a relic anyday. I feel bad for people even trying to start those nowadays. They are easier to get but require events nobody does anymore (example Einherjar). Trying to keep this post short but that didnt seem to happen. Either way people should not rule out legendary weapons because they are time consuming. They help all jobs, including PLD. Maybe I have too much mindset on people wanting PLD to be their main job instead of a casual job. Either way there are alot of fixes that should be don't but SE will not adjust enmity caps and they have already said they have no plans to adjust that.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

Relic, Empyrean, Mythic, or WoE weapon... But I am here to say that these things are not hard to make, they are time consuming.

Time that could be spent getting "legendary" gear for PLD would be better spent leveling a half-assed BLM (etc). For less than the time and effort that would be spent making PLD "useful," you'll have a job that is in-demand, useful in most (if not all) situations, and will generally get you to where you want to go that much sooner.

It's not just about the time, it's about the return on the investment of that time.

[Unleashhell]

Time that could be spent getting "legendary" gear for PLD would be better spent leveling a half-assed BLM (etc). For less than the time and effort that would be spent making PLD "useful," you'll have a job that is in-demand, useful in most (if not all) situations, and will generally get you to where you want to go that much sooner.

It's not just about the time, it's about the return on the investment of that time.

Depends how much you enjoy PLD. If its your main job that you enjoy the most in FFXI, getting a legendary weapon would not be a waste of time. Its all based on personal preference, to some legendary weapons would be more important then leveling BLM or any other job just cause its "useful" or a bandwagon job. To you its a waste of time, to others it isnt.

[Ziyyigo-Tipyigo]

That might mean something if it weren't easier to get legendary PLD gear while playing as a BLM than as a PLD.

[Demon6324236]

SE will not adjust enmity caps and they have already said they have no plans to adjust that.

End of the thread is here, because this means SE already said...


PLD is a job we no longer care to have used in content we create, as such, your enmity is fucked up, and shall remain as such. We are sorry to all PLDs out there who disagree with this, but we just don't care about your job anymore, or any idea of tanking, we would rather everything be a bunch of zergs and weakness procing. That is all.

So there you have it people, PLD is screwed, its use has been lived out and shall not be brought back due to SE not wanting to change their amazing Enmity system/cap that was flawed since we got our level cap higher than 75...

[InsideOut]

Paladins should embrace their new role as a protector that can cure, cover, and protect the front line damage dealers while being tough enough to hold their own on the front line.

In VoidWatch, their role has been reduced to being the pet holder.

I suggest they try different sub job combinations like /sch to have more of a support role in the 2nd DD party.

[Neisan_Quetz]

You can't be serious

[Alistaire]

SE already stated that PLD will never get its own provoke type ability

What? No they haven't. They even went as far as testing one out. It's still in the game code (type /recast enrage) they just never went through with it, and this was long before they had players testing things so they didn't feel the need to announce they'd given up on it.

[Neisan_Quetz]

In the Paladin forums a provoke like ability was already asked for and the developers responded they wouldn't add one and were looking into other elements to maintain enmity.




We are currently looking into adjustments that will make it possible for paladins to up the amount of enmity they gain in situations where party members’ enmity is steadily rising due to high damage output. However, as was shown in the concept, instead of an ability like Provoke that gives a spike in enmity, we are focusing more on the direction of adding elements that will allow of enmity gain as a part of defense and being able to maintain a high amount of enmity that has been accumulated.
.

They don't seem interested in the original ability either; there's no real reason for pld to get it natively in the first place, it won't fix anything.

Not commenting on enrage because I constantly get an error involving that and Blood Rage.

[Alistaire]

"We are focusing more on the direction of adding elements that will allow enmity gain" is not at all the same thing as saying PLD will never get its own provoke. Especially when a pld-provoke was tested out.

This isn't to say they will get a provoke, obviously "focusing more on the direction" means it's a lot more likely to end up that way but doesn't say they're ruling anything out if the focus in that direction doesn't work out.

Personally I think Enrage should be picked back up, but not as a provoke; have them make it an ability "in the direction" they're talking about going, and/or make it some kind of temporary enmity cap boost.

[Neisan_Quetz]

I'm not sure enrage was meant to be a enmity generating ability. Both versions of it were attacking abilities (one reduced charge time to zero, the other was gabranth's bravery attack and gave him zanshin).

And yes they would have to rework enmity for a new 'provoke' to even be useful, since the old one is already mostly useless.

[Godofgods]

the only way i see pld becomeing a main tank again is by having them deal as much dmg as other main tanks. (thf nin)
Or having situation where tanking a mob requires abilitys that only pld has.

[Mathieu]

A "you must attack me for X seconds regardless of enmity" ability would bypass the enmity issue entirely as long as it isn't ridiculous, like lasts for 10 seconds on a 10 minute cooldown. It fits the class and as long as it is too high to sub or completely gimped as a subjob ability, it would be unique. It shouldn't be sustainable 100% of the time, but it should be a decent chunk of time. Making Cover work 100% of the time would help. The Merit could reduce recharge so that it helps you change who it is on more often. Adding an Accomplice/Collaborator ability would also make a difference. I'm not really sure why they are Thief abilities in the first place. I know Thief is supposed to specialize in hate control, but the original point was to transfer their hate to someone else. One weak variant, I can see, if there was also an alternate skill that transferred part of the Thief's hate to someone else. Giving two abilities to Thief, a class designed to do the exact polar opposite of what they do, is a little silly.

Between all three of those, a Paladin would be able to stop one party member from being attacked, regardless of enmity through Cover. Reduce another party member's enmity (regardless of problems with the system, this would at least temporarily keep them from getting attacked), and be able to temporarily ignore the enmity system entirely. None of this requires any special change to the core system and two of these abilities are already in the game.

Personally, I don't think making Paladin do as much damage as other melee classes is the right way to go. Yeah, it does help in the 2% of game content that is the only thing people play and expect everything to be balanced around. However, what happens when the next batch of endgame content comes out with its own unique mechanics? If Paladin is already in the same ballpark for damage, they could easily invalidate every other melee class in terms of usefulness. Even if they can't hold hate properly, having better mitigation, healing, and utility abilities basically puts them ahead of every other melee class if you get those without sacrificing much damage in the process.

The problem is that the core of the class needs to be fixed. Just trying to patch it to work well enough in one specific situation with special mechanics is going to cause problems down the line, not to mention in all the old content everyone ignores at this point when talking about balance. Paladin is supposed to specialize in holding a monster's attention and damage mitigation. The enmity system is not the only way they have to work with for that. On top of that, the fact Thief gets abilities that are clearly designed for tanks is also an issue. If you look at EQ2, the equivalent to Accomplice and Collaborator is a Paladin ability.

[lllen]

Have all of the DD's pull back on their WS' and DMG, have SATA return, and only nuke on MB's!

Fixed!

Boy, that is so right.

[Jedicrew]

Then the job becomes broken.. It basically would allow PLD to always tank, while the DD's have little to fear of dying outside of AoE. This is not the way it should be.

Well this was the way before tho O.o

[Caketime]

The job designed to tank and hold enmity should not be able to hold enmity. Hilarious argument there.

[Arcon]

The job designed to tank and hold enmity should not be able to hold enmity. Hilarious argument there.

The job designed to tank and hold enmity should not be guaranteed enmity, but they should have to work for it. With that suggestion, PLD would not have try to keep hate on him full time, and that is a bad thing. You don't fix gameplay mechanics by eliminating those mechanics. If cures were broken, you wouldn't fix it by automatically disabling taking damage for the entire party just because a WHM is in the party.

[Caketime]

When every boss uses 30' radial attacks with a hilarious combination of debilitating auras and alternate versions of status effects that can't be cured, any strategy other than "Let's drink fanny tonics and beat this thing stupid!" floats away like trash in the wind.

I understand working to maintain your job's role and wasn't suggesting a super trait or anything silly, but tanking has been phased out by design. Paladin can still take hits like a boss, but all content design for years now has revolved around putting out as much damage as possible before a timer expires, and Pally's more of a marathon runner than a sprinter.

[zaksame]

Provoke has been broken since level 75,too much dmg being dealt to coincide with the small numbers Voke give.

IMO a great idea would be to utilize the Shield Bash that has ALWAYS been far too long a timer.
My idea would be to give the PLD the option to forfeit 100 tp for an added SB,200 tp and gives added SB that stuns for 5 secs and 15% bonus to attack[60 secs] 300 tp gives 7 second stun plus 25% bonus to attack/15% bonus to defense [60 secs]

Aside from that Provoke values need to be updated to coincide with the higher levels and higher damage.

[saevel]

I understand working to maintain your job's role and wasn't suggesting a super trait or anything silly, but tanking has been phased out by design. Paladin can still take hits like a boss, but all content design for years now has revolved around putting out as much damage as possible before a timer expires, and Pally's more of a marathon runner than a sprinter.

What their really wanting is a system where it takes super gear to be able to "tank" and anyone without it would be left out. It's an exclusionary position.

[Mirabelle]

PLD just need a passive trait called absorb enmity.
AE 1 = 10% of other party members enmity from any action is transferred to PLD
AE 2 = 15%
AE 3 = 20%

Its an auto-cover trait that doesn't require positioning and means every melee action gives PLD enmity to keep up hate.
Does it allow other jobs to act without fear? Yes. Do they currently act without fear? Yes.
The only time melee back off currently is in the setting of terrible AoE which isn't altered by PLD being an effective tank. So it wouldn't break the job, but would allow PLD to actually do its job.

In fact you could lessen the AE trait and make some gear that enhances it so the best tanks are working towards an awesome AE build as well as -PDT and -MDT.

[Demon6324236]

What their really wanting is a system where it takes super gear to be able to "tank" and anyone without it would be left out. It's an exclusionary position.Its hard to do it any other way really. Looking at Ochain and Aegis, if you can tank without them, your god with them, if you can not tank without them, you can probably tank with them. If they made it so just anyone could play a decently geared PLD that has no Relic/Emp shield, then someone with a Relic/Emp will be able to do it without even needing to do much. It may suck to know, but Aegis and Ochain are so high above other shields that I think they are part of what hurts tanking the most. Because SE has to deal with people who have these weapons somehow, they have to over power mobs so that the mobs are not weak enough to be made worthless through these means.

[saevel]

Its hard to do it any other way really. Looking at Ochain and Aegis, if you can tank without them, your god with them, if you can not tank without them, you can probably tank with them. If they made it so just anyone could play a decently geared PLD that has no Relic/Emp shield, then someone with a Relic/Emp will be able to do it without even needing to do much. It may suck to know, but Aegis and Ochain are so high above other shields that I think they are part of what hurts tanking the most. Because SE has to deal with people who have these weapons somehow, they have to over power mobs so that the mobs are not weak enough to be made worthless through these means.

That's very poor game design, VERY poor. You can not say "this job is only functional with these high end gears".

Now that being said, those two are not that much more powerful. Aegis is probably the only one that's job defining good and only because it lets you go over the 50% MDT cap. Brochain just has a stupid high block rate for melee hits, the most powerful attacks are stupid aoes which brochain doesn't do much for. In either case tanking is NOT about taking the least possible damage, I'm really tired of people jumping to that conclusion. It's about keeping the monsters attention focused on a predictable target so that it doesn't hit the soft mages in the back. Reducing the damage you take is just a nice bonus and should never take priority over keeping it's attention or even killing it.

[Demon6324236]

Well part of the biggest complaints about tanking right now are AoEs. Were AoEs not a problem, Ochain would be able to reduce damage to stupidly low levels. Yes getting and maintaining hate are the most important thing, but what would that do if the AoE problem is still around? If you allow PLD to hold hate at the same time as eliminating AoEs, you effectively make PLD a god with super weapons if mobs do not hit incredibly hard, hard enough to get through these defenses. If AoEs remain, Ochain does not much good, but at the same time, neither does tanking, if you do not fix hate, same story. If both are fixed and damage is to low, then any Ochain PLD or Aegis PLD worth their shield would be able to survive effortlessly, if damage is to high, no job except Ochain/Aegis PLD can tank.

Its a problem created by these 2 shields which SE can not really solve without a nerf of some sort. While you are correct, and Aegis does much more for a PLD than Ochain, they are both contributing factors, because Aegis is a beast for anything to do with magic, while its great for melee, and Ochain is perfect for melee, but has no effect on magic damage. If some of the new NMs we see in SoA do not use magic, Ochain would be better than Aegis, and its possible that will happen, I myself find it kinda stupid that every type of NM in recent times has been a magic user of some sort no matter the race really. So if we see those, and hate/AoE problems are removed, PLD would become god unless mobs hit to hard for anything else to survive.

That is how I see it at least.

[saevel]

Its a problem created by these 2 shields which SE can not really solve without a nerf of some sort

And yet .... with these stupid "super broken" shields ... we don't use PLDs to tank...

Here's a hint, creation of large chunks of CE virtually eliminate the use of a shield. Aegis / OChain are defensive options on a class that's already built around defense. Them being able to actually hold hate won't be broken as the fight is not determined by how much (or little) damage your tank takes. There will still be AoEs, Level 1 goblin monsters have AoEs so we can be positive that level 110+ NMs will have aoes. There will still be a hate cap and melee's will still reach it and take hate / damage. So ultimately the existence of Aegis / OChain would have zero effect on NM design. It just gives the healer less stress.

Your really seeing the battle system and overall game design from the wrong point of view.

[Demon6324236]

If thats the case from how you make it sound, problems with tanking we have right now will not be fixed anyways, making this entire discussion pointless.

Like I said, problems we have are mainly a tank keeping hate and the mobs spamming nothing but AoEs. If you eliminate those problems then you can see how Ochain and Aegis would be problematic. Saying things like...


And yet .... with these stupid "super broken" shields ... we don't use PLDs to tank...

Is kinda obvious. Duh we don't use PLD to tank, because you cant tank right now, tanking is broken by AoEs and enmity, tanks cant hold hate in a way that allows them to hold the mobs attention away from the army of people beating it with sticks. If it were fixed, a hypothetical situation we are hoping to see in the future, we would also need AoE spam to be eliminated. Am I saying get rid of all of the AoEs? No, I am saying make it so that not every attack is an AoE, which is how it is right now, everything is conal or AoE with varying ranges some of which reach even max casting range. These types of things would have to be stopped. If you stop those 2 problems, PLD becomes unstoppable.

We do not use them now because they are worthless for tanking, because tanking does not exist. You want an example of their power though look no further than the difference of a PLD and any other job tanking adds or NMs in endgame. In Legion people use PLD to super tank, not any other job could tank them really, same thing goes for good old VW on NMs like Morta and Bismarck. Were it possible to supertank against normal mobs while people beat it to death, then you face a true problem of balance. If PLD can not hold hate off DDs, we are no better off then than we are right now.

I know there will still be a hate cap, and people will reach it, but if thats all people will do then the enmity changes are pointless anyways. If we are actually attempting to tank, then PLD will become invincible by compare to anything else. No job in the game comes close to being able to take the same amount of damage as PLD, thats why you can not really compare it.

I wont pretend to know the exact math behind it all, because I have never paid enough attention, but say blocking with Ochain is -75% damage, and you get hit with a TP attack that would hit a WAR in a Capped-PDT set for 800, with Ochain thats 200 damage with Phalanx, ~175. Against a WAR in a normal TP set thats 1600. If the mob hits for 500 on a normal hit, its 250 on a DD in PDT, 75 on an Ochain PLD, and 50 or less while Phalanx is up. So is it over powered and bad design to make mobs hit 1600 on a DD in a TP set? Yes, but its also equally bad design to have a job so strong in defense they are nearly immune to damage by compare to your average job. PLD rules in Physical and Magical, between reduction gear and their shields as well as Phalanx PLD is a near perfect job for defenses.

Can you honestly explain to me why or how PLD would be balanced with these shields if they fixed hate and stopped the current AoE spam we suffer from? I would love to hear a well thought out explanation, but for what you have said so far I think your just counting how it is now, which is not what I'm debating. Tanking how it is now is broken, I know this, but what I am trying to say is the problems these shields would create if the problems with hate were fixed.

[saevel]

Is kinda obvious. Duh we don't use PLD to tank, because you cant tank right now, tanking is broken by AoEs and enmity, tanks cant hold hate in a way that allows them to hold the mobs attention away from the army of people beating it with sticks. If it were fixed, a hypothetical situation we are hoping to see in the future, we would also need AoE spam to be eliminated. Am I saying get rid of all of the AoEs? No, I am saying make it so that not every attack is an AoE, which is how it is right now, everything is conal or AoE with varying ranges some of which reach even max casting range. These types of things would have to be stopped. If you stop those 2 problems, PLD becomes unstoppable.

And therein lies the misunderstanding. PLD is already "unstoppable", their a veritable brick wall. We just don't need a brick wall. If tomorrow a magic wand was waived and PLD could suddenly hold hate again would there be any change in a single event we do now? Absolutely not.

The real "tanks" are melee's with appropriate DT sets or other defensive counter measures. Those "tanks" are able to not only hold hate over the healers, their able to survive the attacks of NMs via very creative application of gear swaps. If the nm is really serious we just use a couple of SCH/BLMs interlocking their stuns to slow it down.

Your misunderstanding is that you thing the defensive ability of a job is what makes it a tank. We could give PLD a JT that gave it a permanent -90% DT naked and they still wouldn't be used. They simply can not dish out enough damage using sword + board to warrant a slot that would otherwise be given to a WAR / DRK / SAM / MNK / ect.. who not only dish's damage but can also mitigate enough damage.

The real culprit is the combination of high levels of MP sustainability and a large assortment of -DT gear. The only time MP ever becomes an issue is in low man events, the one place a PLD is still a viable option, provided they pull their head out their arse and gear properly for it. In party or larger settings the "tanks" only need to reduce damage enough to not die, something that's already within the reach of any dedicated DD.