[dev1049] Stardiver Polearm WS

[Amador]

Hello,

I've been doing a lot of testing regarding this WS on the test server and I ran across a number of other threads when they stated, that we are actually able to submit feedback and recommend certain changes be made to the weapon skills if need be.

After much much much testing, I've come to the conclusion that this weapon skill requires a boost in power.

To our current knowledge this WS is: 100% STR Modifier, along with a .75 or .85 fTP modifier on first hit.

I believe that even an adjustment of making it 1.0 or 1.25 Modifier would make this Weapon Skill really worthwhile.

This is the first weapon skill in a long time that Dragoon has gotten that is able to actually be used and used well in practicality. It provides a substantial boost to Crit Rate through it's debuff of lowering the enemies critical hit evasion.

It's sad to view and compare a WS like this against something like Drakesbane, and see that Drakesbane still pulls ahead. Strengthening this won't weaken Drakesbane by any means and users who own Ryunohige will still benefit even more so from it.

However, for those of us who have been playing a while... I myself, am tired of seeing Drakesbane. It's a WS that is nearly 5 years old. It needs to be replaced by something, even if it's a marginal replacement.

So, my feed back is. The WS is amazing, I love how it looks I am content with what it can provide, but I want it to provide more.

I want the fTP on first hit to be raised, and or for the Critical Evasion debuff be changed from it's current 5-10% to 15% static, nah I'll go for broke. I want both. ^-^

Please?

[Alhanelem]

in other words, it's actually good enough.

[Foldypaws]

in other words, it's actually good enough.

A bunch of other jobs are getting WS that are better than the stuff they already had, and I don't think DRG is dominating parses like WAR or MNK and so only deserve a sidegrade.

It's not the weakest of the new WS, but it's definitely only mediocre.

[Amador]

in other words, it's actually good enough.

No not really.

You can find my testing here: http://www.ffxiah.com/forum/topic/27166/stardiver-testing/

This is what the test server is for, it's to comment and speak up when something isn't as it should be and to give the devs feed back for it.

Being good enough as is still means that it'll more than likely simply be a Sekkanoki addition, to continue spamming Drakesbane. That's pretty lame given how amazing this WS looks. It'd be a wasted resource for it to simply be second best.

Drakesbane will continue to destroy it within Abyssea, understandably so. Outside of Abyssea I would like for it to pack more of a punch. .75 fTP is really terrible. Very low. The only thing that saves it currently from not being terrible is the simple fact that it's 100% STR WSC.

Even a .25 fTP increase or .50 would make this WS shine.

It doesn't break the game, it simply leaves the Mythic to excel with Drakesbane. People without Mythic can excel with this.

[Amador]

A bunch of other jobs are getting WS that are better than the stuff they already had, and I don't think DRG is dominating parses like WAR or MNK and so only deserve a sidegrade.

It's not the weakest of the new WS, but it's definitely only mediocre.

Worded perfectly, that really is the reality of it all. Dragoon received a WS that simply marginally makes Drakesbane better. Which under certain circumstances will render the use of Stardriver to nil. Making it DPS damaging and a bad choice of WS.

Current testing does show that the majority of other weapon skills are in fact, very strong. Why shouldn't ours be too?

[Atomic_Skull]

It's a WS that is nearly 7 years old.


... wut?

[Tagrineth]

Uh... TAU was released in 2006, so TAU as a whole is only 5 years old, and Nyzul wasn't released immediately. I think it was almost a year before they added Nyzul. Were the weapon skills released immediately with Nyzul? I think they were. So Drakesbane is more like 4 years old.

[Amador]

Well thank you for that fine correction, but it doesn't mean the weapon skills and the content wasn't already there. It was simply unlocked over time.

So that aside, alright, 2006 still nearly 6 year difference. Let's say it was a year, 5 year difference. It's still 5 freaking years of the same WS. Point and case? What's the difference between 6 or even 7 years compared to 5 at this point? I'll make the corrections as need be though!

As for the time line if it was in fact: ToAU Expansion -> Nyzul.

2006 - ToAU
2007 - Nyzul so, not a 4 year difference since they did release everything Nyzul related when they released Nyzul.
2008-2010 - Einherjar -> The rest of ToAU -> Odin/Alexander
2011-2012 - Nyzul II Revamp


Now... any creative criticism, personal experience with this weapon skill, rebuttal and or sound evidence to show that this WS is fine as it is due to some special findings?

[Alhanelem]

It's fine. So it's not jaw droppingly amazing. So what?

What I'm more interested to know is it's SC properties. does it fill any hole in what polearm is able to provide?

Weapon skills were not designed the same way as spells - e.g. they weren't designed to all become obsolete as soon as you got the next one. They were designed either to excel in different situations, or at least cover different skillchain possibilities. Some vary more wildly in damage in others (crit WS), others are more stable. Some deal magic damge, others don't. Some have additional effects (most/all of the new ones do I think?) and trade off some damage for it. Only the first few WS learned are generally completely inferior (even then, that's not totally true- for some jobs the first WS you learn is stronger in damage than several learned after it)

I'll honestly be suprised if some of the better WS don't get nerfed prior to the official release of the update. Some of them are ridiculously good compared to older ones (e.g. staff, club), and deservedly so considering the previous options, but I'm predicting these to be nerfed....

Don't get me wrong. I won't mind it at all if the polearm WS were to be buffed. I guess just color me bugged by the subtly demanding nature of your post.

[Amador]

It's fine. So it's not jaw droppingly amazing. So what?

What I'm more interested to know is it's SC properties. does it fill any hole in what polearm is able to provide?

Weapon skills were not designed the same way as spells - e.g. they weren't designed to all become obsolete as soon as you got the next one. They were designed either to excel in different situations, or at least cover different skillchain possibilities. Some vary more wildly in damage in others (crit WS), others are more stable. Some deal magic damge, others don't. Some have additional effects (most/all of the new ones do I think?) and trade off some damage for it. Only the first few WS learned are generally completely inferior (even then, that's not totally true- for some jobs the first WS you learn is stronger in damage than several learned after it)

I'll honestly be suprised if some of the better WS don't get nerfed prior to the official release of the update. Some of them are ridiculously good compared to older ones (e.g. staff, club), and deservedly so considering the previous options, but I'm predicting these to be nerfed....

Let's go by the bolds.

So what? The test server and these forums are meant to provide feed back to the dev team in order to better provide us with a good product. Which is something we all buy every month. These weapon skills which are in testing, are all getting feedback, not just Stardiver. This is my feed back towards the WS so that the dev can analyze their data and come to a conclusion.

SC properties Stardiver and all the other Weaponskills seem to have very low level Weapon Skill properties and in Stardivers case it at best does Gravitation. Soil Gorget affects its. Etc etc.

They were designed either to excel in different situations Correct. My point in all this is to state that while Stardiver is a good 2nd best to Drakesbane, it's functionality will be limited greatly. In other words, it's hardly going to get any use at all.

The nature of the type of WS that it is implies it so, it's a non crit WS for one. Meaning? Won't be used in Abyssea, ever. Outside of testing. On anything that matters, while it may provide a decent average, Drakesbane will still spike higher. In Voidwatch, through the use of Champion's Tonic and through the use of a SINGLE and or periodic Stardiver, you'll still continue to spam Drakesbane.

I'm predicting these to be nerfed I really hope not, these WS's are gorgeous, and to have invested so much time and work into making them look as amazing as they do to turning around and making them completely worthless will be a mistake.

If you have access to the test sever, or if you want to review my data on the testing I did, you'll see that the WS could do more. Maybe it will in the future through better gear, etc. However, it'd be nice if it was released with a little more punch as is.

I actually want to use this WS, I want something fresh. It's not about "being okay with it". It's about actually testing, reviewing and thinking tactfully how you'd apply this in a given situation on 11. My bone with it, is that it probably won't get much use out of it.

No one wants to use something just because it's pretty, we want things to be effective, and to give us an edge.

[Alhanelem]

I made some changes while you were posting. To be clear, I'm NOT against tuning the WS up. When I read your post I felt at first like it was a "god dang it I want to be the strongest" type of post. That was presumptuous of me. I do however, think the WS is "not bad" as it is now and is something of an option for DRG and a great option for the other jobs.

The club WS by all accounts i've heard (I haven't tried it yet myself) is crazy good. I can almost see PLD getting it if there's a club with stats they like on it.

The staff WS, yeah no one cares, but it's still MILES above any WS before it, and it has a cool additional effect. In my testing (on SMN) it was quite literally twice as powerful as retribution (and that was with only 3/5 merits) at 100%. MNK might even be able to have some fun with it (though i doubt it would go into regular use) and Hundred Staves :p.

Some of these are just so unexpectedly good that I almost expect them to be taken away :(

[Amador]

Which is why I would expect Polearm WS to be stronger, not weaker than or below par a WS like Drakesbane. It's disappointing to see that. As you stated, a lot of these new WS's beat out and or match their Empyrean Counterparts. Which is pretty big on it's own, but some don't.

Unless the idea of this WS is that it beats out lolCamlann's Torment, if that's the case then even Skewer outside of Abyssea beats that. All in all, through my testing I found that while the WS was decent, it still didn't do enough to warrant a consistent use of it. Which meant back to Drakesbane, because to me that's just meh at this point. It's been too long. I'm already starting to see new gear being released that will further improve upon Drakesbane on a ridiculous level.

Where is that going to leave something like Stardiver? More like Stardust at that point.Where is that going to leave any type of practicality for self skill chains or actual tactics outside of constant trigger happy spam?

I'm all for new gear, I'm all for new content. But as I stated in another post, these weapon skills are clearly meant to be strong, so why not? Leave the Mythic to do it's job and beef Drakesbane by 15%, it doesn't mean this WS has to remain 20% weaker just because it'll hurt the 1% Mythic Population out there.

We're the 99% damnz it. OCCUPY WHITEGATE.

[hiko]

stardriver is the strongest polearm WS







for sam!


I'm all for new gear, I'm all for new content. But as I stated in another post, these weapon skills are clearly meant to be strong, so why not? Leave the Mythic to do it's job and beef Drakesbane by 15%, it doesn't mean this WS has to remain 20% weaker just because it'll hurt the 1% Mythic Population out there.

you're wrong here, having a WS better than mythic one doesn't hurt mythic owner but boost them even more (especially drg and sam) mythicWS for oa2-3 aftermatch then spam stronger WS for 3min

[Malamasala]

The staff WS, yeah no one cares, but it's still MILES above any WS before it, and it has a cool additional effect. In my testing (on SMN) it was quite literally twice as powerful as retribution (and that was with only 3/5 merits) at 100%.

It should be miles above past WSes since they were sucktastic. I hope they boost the staff WS so it can actually start catching up to all the other weapons in the game.

[Amador]

you're wrong here, having a WS better than mythic one doesn't hurt mythic owner but boost them even more (especially drg and sam) mythicWS for oa2-3 aftermatch then spam stronger WS for 3min


It in no way makes the 1% Mythic Population. Non-sense aside, Ryunohige currently is the most devastating weapon Dragoon has in it's arsenal should it care to invest in it.

Bolstering Drakesbane by 15% DAMAGE alone. Occasionally attacking TWICE or THRICE at a 40/40/20 Ratio. Being able to process it's Twice/Thrice attack rate on Weapon Skills.

How does making Stardiver stronger influence anything Ryunohige Drakesbane gives? It doesn't because Ryunohige as a weapon is ridiculously over powered for what it is and gives. No one in their right mind would care to use anything other than Drakesbane as is by having Drakesbane for the simple fact of how much stronger it becomes with Ryunohige, so that statement is completely false!

Now if the idea is to focus and mitigate based on Relics/Mythics/Empyreans. Drakesbane has already taken care of writing Relic/Empyrean out of the show for Polearm for a long time now. Will continue to do so, because Relic and Empyrean Polearm lack balance.

Now as far as Staff Weapon Skill is concerned or Club for that matter, or most of the other ones. It's exactly like that, they're meant to beat out their competition, at this point. Is there a specific and key reason as to why Stardiver shouldn't? It doesn't hinder the use of other WS, and if the idea is to focus on that then the Dev team needs to focus on Relic/Empyrean and realize that Skewer, and Penta Thrust alone have been able to out do those for years.

[Dragonlord]

Using stardiver at the start of a fight is going to cause more damage through the added effect than the difference between it and drakesbane. So technically this WS already beats drakes in party situations.

The dev team mentioned with he release of drakes that they intentionally boosted the WS bc they felt drg needed a great WS. And it is still one of the best WS in this game.

Club and staff new WS are better than the previous because the others aren't much good to begin with (aside from hexa strike but that is main job specific). So those weapons deserve to finally have a good WS. Now drg has 2 WS that it can rotate between depending on the situation, this WS is fine by me. (Of course i won't complain if they boost stardiver either, i just don't think its necessary)

[Amador]

Using stardiver at the start of a fight is going to cause more damage through the added effect than the difference between it and drakesbane. So technically this WS already beats drakes in party situations.

The dev team mentioned with he release of drakes that they intentionally boosted the WS bc they felt drg needed a great WS. And it is still one of the best WS in this game.

Club and staff new WS are better than the previous because the others aren't much good to begin with (aside from hexa strike but that is main job specific). So those weapons deserve to finally have a good WS. Now drg has 2 WS that it can rotate between depending on the situation, this WS is fine by me. (Of course i won't complain if they boost stardiver either, i just don't think its necessary)

Going by bolds, it won't if you're just damaging your own DPS for the sake of others. 5% Crit is nothing. Oriandori provides a 10-15% we provide a mariginal 5%. So if you have a Ninja in your group, what then? It also lasts 60 seconds.

Are you really going to use a WS that damages your DPS by 5-10% per WS every min? More than likely inclined to say not.

If the Critical Hit Evasion Down -% was = to that of Orianodori then maybe. No, yes, it would be amazing then. However, sadly it isn't.

In regards to Drakesbane, when they first added it, it was actually horrible. Penta Thrust out parsed it every which way. It was so bad, it was speculated it had no bonus to crit rate at all. It was speculated to have a 0% Crit Rate Boost at 100% TP. So they adjusted it, made it better because it got flamed to heck for being so weak.

So, no Drakesbane wasn't released with a planned intention of being AMAZING. It was released as a Mythic WS which was found too weak, and augmented to meet standards.Through player feed back it was made better. Which is what I want to do here, I want to show that 1: this WS isn't all that it could be. 2: It's added effect isn't as great as people believe it is. 3: That it requires a greater boost in damage, and or some type of modification to it's added effect to be worth while.

[Dragonlord]

First on the -crit hit eva, you're comparing a sure proc to a 10% proc chance (numbers based off of bg wiki) and as with all weapon based procs the higher the lv the mob, the less likely it is to proc. Also, another job would beat out nin's damage even with this thing proccing.

Maybe drakes was tweaked, but i remember them saying they "adjusted" drakes, past tense, and people misread it as they were going to improve it.

Drakes actually doesn't have much of a crit bonus in the first place, its been tested between 5-10% at 100%tp.

Ok now, stardiver being a .75 fTP WS, really isn't necessary, just make it 1.0 across the board. Add effect is a little low, and as is, would only be beneficial in a zerg situation. Boosting this WS could bring it back to the table as a top tier DD, which is where it should be.

[Krashport]

ionowhathappeneditwillnotletmedeletethispostwtf.....ohwell

[Krashport]

No one wants to use something just because it's pretty, we want things to be effective, and to give us an edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Kmv3WlKa6U8#t=41s There is nothing wrong w/ pretty! >.>

[Foldypaws]

Yeah, using Mighty Strikes, I just tested Stardiver to be .75 across all 4 hits. That makes this WS worthless.

Needs to be changed to 1 fTP across all 4 hits.

[Dragonlord]

Wait a second, SE is making the subsequent hits on these new WS differ from 1 fTP? Only thing this has been done on in the past is blu multi hit spells. Would you mind posting or linking to the test data?

Edit: found the data post http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings/page98?

[Amador]

First on the -crit hit eva, you're comparing a sure proc to a 10% proc chance (numbers based off of bg wiki) and as with all weapon based procs the higher the lv the mob, the less likely it is to proc. Also, another job would beat out nin's damage even with this thing proccing.

Maybe drakes was tweaked, but i remember them saying they "adjusted" drakes, past tense, and people misread it as they were going to improve it.

Drakes actually doesn't have much of a crit bonus in the first place, its been tested between 5-10% at 100%tp.

Ok now, stardiver being a .75 fTP WS, really isn't necessary, just make it 1.0 across the board. Add effect is a little low, and as is, would only be beneficial in a zerg situation. Boosting this WS could bring it back to the table as a top tier DD, which is where it should be.

Okay, so, no. You're talking about how it's beneficial to use because of the critical hit evasion debuff it can inflict. My point and case was Ninja can do that better. In which case, using Stardiver for that very reason you defended becomes null. Which is again my case and point in saying that either that potency needs to be increased, and or revised into something better.

The whole topic on the idea of the fTP is that it indeed is a bit low. Having an fTP of 1.0 would increase damage enough so that it isn't DPS damaging for us depending on situation, so that if we are in a long fight. It becomes more so beneficial for us to actually care to use Stardiver as opposed to not. At this point, it'll be a situational dependent WS, which is something that would suck, quite frankly.

Giving the WS more use, will increase the use of it, and therefore be a fresh and new change that would actually be fun.

[Amador]

Yeah, using Mighty Strikes, I just tested Stardiver to be .75 across all 4 hits. That makes this WS worthless.

Needs to be changed to 1 fTP across all 4 hits.

Wow what? That's horrible news. It's .75 across all 4 hits? So it's completely different from all other types of Multi Hits? that's really bad... ._.;

So, yeah... Drakesbane reigns supreme yet again... /golf clap SE. BRB as I toss out my 250,000,000G relic out the window, since I actually invested in it before your pretty simplified updates.

This bites, no wonder the use of Elemental Belt/Gorget has such a dramatic effect on it.

Foldy could you by chance test to see if Gorget/Belt applies the fTP to all hits too then since this WS is a bit different?

Ignore that, I just saw your data. Blah.


Ugh. Bad news on Stardiver testing.

All under Mighty Strikes/Berserk/Hasso/Sekkanoki + RCB on Marsh Murre outside of Nashmau. Crits showed that attack was capped. (985)

Using a spear (easiest polearm I could get for WAR). D=34, fSTR=11 -> 45, 185 STR *.85=148 WSC

Without Gorget: 2363,2360,2384

34+148*3*1.11 (crit bonus 3)*1.25(piercing weak)=757 minimum, *3.75=2838 minimum if hits 2-4 were 1.0 fTP. Expected damage from 3.0 fTP between 2271 and 2384, matches what's seen.

With Gorget: 2719,2651,2715,2596

Maximum damage @ 3.1 total fTP = 2.464, cannot be 3.1 total fTP. If 3.4 total fTP, damage expected between 2573 and 2702, (order of operations? fTP slightly above .75?).

With Gorget+DA: 3352,3334,3367. Damage range for 4.25 total fTP is 3217-3378. All DA WS fit within bounds.


tl;dr: Stardiver is almost certainly .75 fTP on all hits, and gorgets/belts apply to all hits.

This WS *needs* to be adjusted or it's worthless.

[Foldypaws]

It does (well, gorget does, I didn't have a matching belt), all my data is on the page Dragonlord linked above.

Even with that, you only get 3.8 fTP using both belt and gorget.

[Spiritreaver]

@Amador-since he's done some testing

Does Stardiver chain with any of the quested/mythic/Empy WSs?

I ask because of the reference to it possibly being a lead in on a sekka WS flurry if /sam. The PC i use for FFXI is out of commission atm so i can't get on the test server to see for myself.

[Dragonlord]

Okay, so, no. You're talking about how it's beneficial to use because of the critical hit evasion debuff it can inflict. My point and case was Ninja can do that better. In which case, using Stardiver for that very reason you defended becomes null. Which is again my case and point in saying that either that potency needs to be increased, and or revised into something better.


Do we even know if these two effects stack or overwrite one another? If they stack, then drg's WS is still adding that -5%, and that nin could be replaced by a higher end DD. So my point is not null, you're still sacrificing a party slot for that nin to try and proc the effect. The effect is stronger, but not necessarily "better" bc they can't proc it immediately, drg's can.

If foldypaws is correct, then this WS is indeed lacking and the total fTP certainly needs to be raised. I'm sure some of the other WS will have the same trend. Not looking good for these lower fTP WSs.

[Amador]

I saw, that's rather disappointing. But, I wonder now though what the benefit of TP Bonus then @200% and so on, if the ftp is carried on to all hits that could be something, but still. Blowing 200% TP on 1 WS instead of on 2 Drakesbane makes it garbage.

DRG doesn't have any TP bonus items like WAR does, and using a TP Bonus Magian Weapon is pointless. I wonder what the scale up ratio is TP for fTP maybe there's something we're not seeing here/ignoring.

Potential fTP increases at 125%, 150%, 200%, 225%, 250%, 275%, 300%. Maybe there's some logical rhyme and reason for this to be this way on the devs side? Or is it really just a design flaw that isn't good on practice and the dev team simply thought it'd be dandy due to a 100% WSC STR Mod?

[Foldypaws]

@Amador-since he's done some testing

Does Stardiver chain with any of the quested/mythic/Empy WSs?

I ask because of the reference to it possibly being a lead in on a sekka WS flurry if /sam. The PC i use for FFXI is out of commission atm so i can't get on the test server to see for myself.

It's Gravitation/Transfixion

Stardiver -> Drakesbane is Gravitation. Makes Darkness with lol Geiskergol.

[Amador]

@Amador-since he's done some testing

Does Stardiver chain with any of the quested/mythic/Empy WSs?

I ask because of the reference to it possibly being a lead in on a sekka WS flurry if /sam. The PC i use for FFXI is out of commission atm so i can't get on the test server to see for myself.

It does however it's nothing worth while. It's something like, Impulse Drive -> Stardive = Gravitation, it doesn't do anything from Drakesbane and I didn't even bother to test it with Geirskogul.
Nice find on what it does with skill chains, but yeah. Stardiver -> Geirskogul lolwut.

@Dragonlord
Effects such as Defense Down do not stack. By that same Rhyme, neither should Critical Hit Evasion -%, I don't know what kind of parties you deal with. However, Ninjas are a huge part of this game whether you choose to accept it or not. They are magnificent damage dealers, and can solo most content currently on the game. Blade: Hi further increases this potential. Almost everything I do has a Ninja involved, and if your group isn't utilizing what Ninja brings to the table quite frankly adjust and fix that because you and your Linkshell are doing it wrong in Tactic Terms.

[Dragonlord]

@Dragonlord
Effects such as Defense Down do not stack.

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Angon

Angon's defense down, dnc's box step, and dia's defense down all stack. I guess it depends if add.eff from weapon and WS count as the same debuff. Probably /shrug

[Foldypaws]

http://ffxi.gamerescape.com/wiki/Angon

Angon's defense down, dnc's box step, and dia's defense down all stack. I guess it depends if add.eff from weapon and WS count as the same debuff. Probably /shrug

That's because Dia inflicts "dia", not Defense down, Box step inflicts "Sluggish Daze", and Angon inflicts "Defense down".

It's all about the name, not the effect. (With the apparent weird exception of cruor buffs and Boost-stats)

Both the katana and the polearm inflict the same named effect, so they wouldn't stack, though both would stack with Feather Step. (Because it inflicts Bewildered Daze, not crit evasion down).

[Amador]

That's because Dia inflicts "dia", not Defense down, Box step inflicts "Sluggish Daze", and Angon inflicts "Defense down".

It's all about the name, not the effect. (With the apparent weird exception of cruor buffs and Boost-stats)

Both the katana and the polearm inflict the same named effect, so they wouldn't stack, though both would stack with Feather Step. (Because it inflicts Bewildered Daze, not crit evasion down).

This.

I'm very curious about TP Bonus having a positive effect on this though, maybe some how @ 125, it becomes 1.0 across the board? But, only means we DRG have to get that is a Moonshade Earring, and or getting 150 in Voidwatch using appropriate Atma... or 200% using Atma of the Smiting Blow, or Magian TP Bonus Lance!

Yet, none of those sidegrade adjustments fix the issue with it. I really really really hope that this entire posting isn't in vain and that they actually care to adjust it, even slightly.

[Spiritreaver]

It's Gravitation/Transfixion

Stardiver -> Drakesbane is Gravitation. Makes Darkness with lol Geiskergol.

Thanks for that.

But now i'm like 'huh?' Some of the seemingly nice ones aside, looks like SE spent an admirable amount of time on the merits WS's animations and a couple sec into the how they would perform.

[Amador]

Thanks for that.

But now i'm like 'huh?' Some of the seemingly nice ones aside, looks like SE spent an admirable amount of time on the merits WS's animations and a couple sec into the how they would perform.

Exactly my point, why waste so much time and resources on this when it's not worth the time and effort? It's kind of just a slap in the face, not just to us but to the Dev team as well. Why invest in something so well animation wise, time wise, when it's only going to be used 10% if not less of the time spent doing x event?

[Sonshou]

No one wants to use something just because it's pretty, we want things to be effective, and to give us an edge.

What does that leaves me? I am those who use a WS just becoz it's pretty. I use Camlann in all situation knowing draksbane do better dmg, I just simply use it becoz it is pretty. Just because utility and damage is all in your head doesn't means everyone is the same.

You can voice your opinion but doesn't mean you have to attack anyone who response to your post. Becoz speaking louder doesn't make you right.

[Alhanelem]

I have heard that due to the nature of its fTP, that the gorgets (and anything else that "increases WS damage") have a profound impact on this WS (more so than the others because of the way it's set up)

[Dragonlord]

I have heard that due to the nature of its fTP, that the gorgets (and anything else that "increases WS damage") have a profound impact on this WS (more so than the others because of the way it's set up)

As foldy mentioned on page 3, the fTP affects all hits of this WS, adding .4 fTP in total instead of .1

@sonshou: for those who want to complete content efficiently, theyre forced to use the best WS, otherwise you're hurting yourself and those in your group. Also he's not attacking anyone, he's arguing his point, quite well really.

[SpankWustler]

I have heard that due to the nature of its fTP, that the gorgets (and anything else that "increases WS damage") have a profound impact on this WS (more so than the others because of the way it's set up)

This is true, but the end result is still less than 1 fTP a hit. I'd compare it to water having a more positive effect on a burning house than a house in normal condition.


What does that leaves me? I am those who use a WS just becoz it's pretty. I use Camlann in all situation knowing draksbane do better dmg, I just simply use it becoz it is pretty.

If you only care about the aesthetic value of the weaponskill, then whatever effect it has does not matter. Actually, you should rejoice over being perfectly insulated from whatever weird decisions the Development Bros may make as long as the weaponskills look awesome.

[Amador]

What does that leaves me? I am those who use a WS just becoz it's pretty. I use Camlann in all situation knowing draksbane do better dmg, I just simply use it becoz it is pretty. Just because utility and damage is all in your head doesn't means everyone is the same.

You can voice your opinion but doesn't mean you have to attack anyone who response to your post. Becoz speaking louder doesn't make you right.

I... am not attacking anyone. I'm defending my stance on the idea that this Weapon Skill as awesome as it maybe and look, is a wasted resource if it's application is non existent or too limited to effectively matter. I want the weapon skill to be better, so that in your terms we can use pretty weapon skills.

Anyways-

...
...
...

Yeah, anyways.

Alhanelem, the thing is there is barely any gear at all. You realistically have Elemental Gorget, and Belt. That's it. There's nothing else gear wise that provides this to that degree.

Items such as A Moogle Kupo'D Etat helmet for example which provides WS DMG +2%, does not work the same way as +0.2 fTP. (If I'm wrong in this then O.O) but that to my knowledge is correct.

[Dragonlord]

You're correct, anything with WS+ dmg is calculated after the WS's normal formula. The best thing this WS has going for it other than the elemental gorget's/belt's fTP on all hits is the 100% str mod, still not enough to make up for the total 1 fTP lost.

[Javarr]

Was reading over this and remembered the whole RK Lance v. Dark Mezraq arguments back in the day.

Anyway, what I was going to say before I had that random derail is this:

In the same way that people used to say the Dark Mezraq and later on the Mezraq and Thalassocrat were better then any was due to their effect on the target's evasion. The same can be said for Stardriver, due to it's Critical Hit Evasion Down effect. I believe the devs meant this to be a setup WS.

IE: Launch Stardriver > Inflict CHE- on the target > Launch Drakesbane > ??? > Profit

With events coming out of Abyssea (Thank god), we are not going to have the massive +Crit rate anymore, so this will somewhat help to maintain some of that edge. If we can not have the high Crit hit rate, let's bring the mobs down to us instead.

I do have to admit, I was hoping it was gonna be rockin like I've heard some of the others are, but I do think that used properly, this could become a valuable tool. May not crank out the E-peen numbers by itself, but could work to help crank up other numbers instead.

Just my two cents on the matter.

[Amador]

Was reading over thttp://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/17719-dev1049-Stardiver-Polearm-WS/page5his and remembered the whole RK Lance v. Dark Mezraq arguments back in the day.

Anyway, what I was going to say before I had that random derail is this:

In the same way that people used to say the Dark Mezraq and later on the Mezraq and Thalassocrat were better then any was due to their effect on the target's evasion. The same can be said for Stardriver, due to it's Critical Hit Evasion Down effect. I believe the devs meant this to be a setup WS.

IE: Launch Stardriver > Inflict CHE- on the target > Launch Drakesbane > ??? > Profit

With events coming out of Abyssea (Thank god), we are not going to have the massive +Crit rate anymore, so this will somewhat help to maintain some of that edge. If we can not have the high Crit hit rate, let's bring the mobs down to us instead.

I do have to admit, I was hoping it was gonna be rockin like I've heard some of the others are, but I do think that used properly, this could become a valuable tool. May not crank out the E-peen numbers by itself, but could work to help crank up other numbers instead.

Just my two cents on the matter.

There are a few things interestingly wrong in this post let's start with your derail on which was better.

Dark Mezraq, higher base damage and the enfeeble debuff was actually amazing granting -20 Evasion Down on the Enemy.

As well as the rest of the Polearms until Celtine - Valk's Fork was released which replaced them.

Let's talk about Stardiver because you obviously didn't read well enough into what has been said here already.

The Critical Evasion Down Debuff is garbage, it's 5%. A fodder Katana from some NM in Abyssea-Grauberg has the same effect granting 10-15%, we get 5%. Horrid.

Let's talk about Profit, it isn't profit when you buy a Ten Dollar Bill, for Nine Dollars and then convert it for a Ten Dollar Bill for One Dollar. In the case of Stardiver you're going to end up damaging your DPS by much more, having to use the WS on a minute to minute basis just to keep the effect up. It's not worth it. This is being approached the same way people are approaching another VERY similar weapon skill, the new Scythe WS. Same fTP issue.

It needs a boost, that's all that can be said to it.

[SpankWustler]

That would definitely be true if the Critical Hit Evasion Down were significant, but it's only 5% according to quite reliable tests. Other than the plague effect from Shijin Spiral, actually, all of the additional effects from the new weaponskills are lower than one would expect.

Increasing the potency of the additional effect could be a way to make Stardiver see more use, though.

My own suggestion is that they re-name the weaponskill "Stardriver" and change the animation. While the new version will still have a disappointing fTP value, it will now assault monsters with deludes of innuendo and phallic imagery involving giant robots.

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm197/musicalcroc/StarDriver.png

[saevel]

Ok we gotta understand that DRG's got their *real* Emperian WS from Nyzule Isle lol. Drakesbane is a four hit crit WS, its on par with most emperian WS's and better then others. So lets try not to compare Stardiver to Drakesbane, especially that every DRG can get Drakes easily. Stardiver seems to be more for polearm builds on SAM and WAR then for DRG's. And before people start complaining, imagine your Drakesbane was similar to SAM's Rana.

[Ophannus]

Amador, you forget these weapon skills are not job specific. So therefore these weapon skills are not meant to replace things like Ukko's Fury, Drakesbane, Stringing Pummel. Stardiver is meant to give Drakesbane-like power to other Polearm wielding jobs or to even the disparity between Drakesbane and all other polearm WS. If Stardiver were a job specific weapon skill, than it would be a different story.

Also, if Stardiver was stronger than Drakesbane, don't you think SAM and WAR would hop on that bandwagon and start using Polearms? I can guarantee that if Stardiver outdamaged Drakesbane, WAR and SAM would make better use of it than DRG since WAR has Berserk/Hasso/Bloodrage/DA and SAM can spam TP like crazy.

[Dragonlord]

Sam and war get nothing near as good polearms as drg, this WS would still be worthless to them. However whm is getting its toes stepped on with realmrazer by pld since they get at least 1 good club.

[saevel]

Sam and war get nothing near as good polearms as drg, this WS would still be worthless to them. However whm is getting its toes stepped on with realmrazer by pld since they get at least 1 good club.

People said that back at 75 and it didn't stop SAM's and WAR's from beating out DRG's back then. SAM has access to the couse's and while their not as good as the lances, their are still a few that are high DMG with 480 delay (Draca couse is 112DMG 480 Delay STR+7). Jobs like SAM do not need to do higher WS damage then a DRG, they'll just increase quantity to compensate. If this WS was better then Drakes Bane, then SAM/WAR + Stardiver would beat out a DRG/SAM with Stardiver every time.

[Byrth]

Wearing Gorget/Belt/TP Bonus Moonshade boosts it back up to about 4 fTP, but I agree that it probably should have been 5-hits if they were going to put this mechanic on it.

Drakes is 4-hits, Crit, and 50% STR. Polearm base damage is substantial.
Stardiver with 140 STR:
127 (WSC) + 146 (Rhongo 95) + 10 (fSTR) = 283 base damage
322*3.93 = 1112 Base Damage*fTP

Drakes with 200 STR:
63 (WSC) + 146 (Rhongo 95) + 10 (fSTR) = 219 base damage
241*4 = 876 Base Damage*fTP

So (in an extreme case), Stardiver has a ~25% base damage lead over Drakes. Drakes has a 20-30% crit rate in WS gear. Crits increase pDIF by between 50 and 100%. As it is, it's hard to argue that Stardiver is an improvement over Drakes except in very strange situations where you're fighting EP monsters with buffs and a low crit rate/Damage. If cRatio drops (high level or high defense targets), then the value of crits goes way up and bridges the gap. If Crit rate or Crit Damage goes up (like in Abyssea), then the value of crits/being able to crit goes way up and bridges the gap.

Overall, it lacks a fifth hit. It also lacks a useful WS property. It should have been Fragmentation.

Edit: I guess it is worth noting that the Weapon Skills category is headed with "Group 1." Assuming that "Group 2" enhances "Group 1," we perhaps shouldn't be so quick to judge.

[Nynja]

However, for those of us who have been playing a while... I myself, am tired of seeing Drakesbane. It's a WS that is nearly 5 years old. It needs to be replaced by something, even if it's a marginal replacement.

Tell that to the war's spamming Raging Rush for 8 years, the Ninja's spamming Jin since RotZ came out, the Thieves spamming DE for 8 years, the MNK's spamming Asuran for 8 years, the SAM's spamming Gekko since RotZ...really, 5 years aint shiet.

[Amador]

Ok we gotta understand that DRG's got their *real* Emperian WS from Nyzule Isle lol. Drakesbane is a four hit crit WS, its on par with most emperian WS's and better then others. So lets try not to compare Stardiver to Drakesbane, especially that every DRG can get Drakes easily. Stardiver seems to be more for polearm builds on SAM and WAR then for DRG's. And before people start complaining, imagine your Drakesbane was similar to SAM's Rana.

Really?

Just FYI Ukko's Fury has the ability to pop 4k-5k on Qilin, and Kaggen type NMS. To compare Ukko's Fury to Drakesbane is an extreme belittling of the weapon skill as a whole.

The reality of it is, for 100 merit points you'd expect something with more bite. For those who actually TESTED the weapon skill, and aren't on here jusy saying: "Well, it's fine because it is and I say it is." without bringing up real hard math and evidence as has been posted that it's simply not up to par.

This is a Thread to look at a WS in which some players have tested, and the feed back we're giving the dev team is that it needs a bigger boost. What's wrong with the feed back? Select people just can't be bothered to view hard numbers and say alright, ok. I see it.



Amador, you forget these weapon skills are not job specific. So therefore these weapon skills are not meant to replace things like Ukko's Fury, Drakesbane, Stringing Pummel. Stardiver is meant to give Drakesbane-like power to other Polearm wielding jobs or to even the disparity between Drakesbane and all other polearm WS. If Stardiver were a job specific weapon skill, than it would be a different story.

Also, if Stardiver was stronger than Drakesbane, don't you think SAM and WAR would hop on that bandwagon and start using Polearms? I can guarantee that if Stardiver outdamaged Drakesbane, WAR and SAM would make better use of it than DRG since WAR has Berserk/Hasso/Bloodrage/DA and SAM can spam TP like crazy.

Have you not been reading the forums, and other test process that have been done on a majority of these weaponskills? Some not only replace, they DESTROY Empyrean/Relic/Mythic. How can you make a baseless argument like that as if you were a Dev and you knew what they intended with these weapon skills?

EVEN if, by that degree, it was meant to give Crit Based Weapon Skills a boost. My argument is simple: THAT IT IS DPS DAMAGING TO DO SO AT THIS POINT AND TIME DUE TO IT'S LACK OF PUNCH AND POTENCY OF IT'S DEBUFF.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Who cares if other jobs got it? It's not as if they have a high damage polearm, none of been released thus far for those two jobs. I like that you mention Berserk, Blood Rage and DA. However, you realize WAR got more nearly all of those new WS's while most jobs can get 2.

From a positive stand point, those jobs are overdue for a useful WS in the polearm department.


Sam and war get nothing near as good polearms as drg, this WS would still be worthless to them. However whm is getting its toes stepped on with realmrazer by pld since they get at least 1 good club.

Uh, what? I think you need to review Club Options.


People said that back at 75 and it didn't stop SAM's and WAR's from beating out DRG's back then. SAM has access to the couse's and while their not as good as the lances, their are still a few that are high DMG with 480 delay (Draca couse is 112DMG 480 Delay STR+7). Jobs like SAM do not need to do higher WS damage then a DRG, they'll just increase quantity to compensate. If this WS was better then Drakes Bane, then SAM/WAR + Stardiver would beat out a DRG/SAM with Stardiver every time.

I'd be willing to bet outside of Abyssea SAM/WAR will still beat DRG outside of Abyssea with Stardiver regardless. Due to Overwhelm, Berserk, Warcry, and all of those Firing My Laser inbalance Samurai Bleeds. But oh well!


Wearing Gorget/Belt/TP Bonus Moonshade boosts it back up to about 4 fTP, but I agree that it probably should have been 5-hits if they were going to put this mechanic on it.

Drakes is 4-hits, Crit, and 50% STR. Polearm base damage is substantial.
Stardiver with 140 STR:
127 (WSC) + 146 (Rhongo 95) + 10 (fSTR) = 283 base damage
322*3.93 = 1112 Base Damage*fTP

Drakes with 200 STR:
63 (WSC) + 146 (Rhongo 95) + 10 (fSTR) = 219 base damage
241*4 = 876 Base Damage*fTP

So (in an extreme case), Stardiver has a ~25% base damage lead over Drakes. Drakes has a 20-30% crit rate in WS gear. Crits increase pDIF by between 50 and 100%. As it is, it's hard to argue that Stardiver is an improvement over Drakes except in very strange situations where you're fighting EP monsters with buffs and a low crit rate/Damage. If cRatio drops (high level or high defense targets), then the value of crits goes way up and bridges the gap. If Crit rate or Crit Damage goes up (like in Abyssea), then the value of crits/being able to crit goes way up and bridges the gap.

Overall, it lacks a fifth hit. It also lacks a useful WS property. It should have been Fragmentation.

Edit: I guess it is worth noting that the Weapon Skills category is headed with "Group 1." Assuming that "Group 2" enhances "Group 1," we perhaps shouldn't be so quick to judge.

Drakesbane will always get better depending on who you have in your party too.

IE: Blood Rage, let's not forget the +10% Critical Hit Damage on our Lancer's Cuissots +2. Which makes that gap even smaller.


Tell that to the war's spamming Raging Rush for 8 years, the Ninja's spamming Jin since RotZ came out, the Thieves spamming DE for 8 years, the MNK's spamming Asuran for 8 years, the SAM's spamming Gekko since RotZ...really, 5 years aint shiet.

Okay. I'll tell it to the most over powered job in the game, nice Steel Cyclone, nice Raging Rush, nice King's Justice, amazing Ukko's Fury. Oh, wait... Now Ninja is a good one, they have never gotten much, not till recently and that's a good thing, very over due. Thieves did in fact spam DE, and alternated with Sharkbite for SA stacking, then went to Evisceration once that update happened and oh wait, they actually got a useful Relic WS Mercy Stroke, didn't they? MNK held highest DPS for a long time. Dragon Kick, Asuran, and so on. You can't sit there and argue for MNK. You mean the Gekko that was broken for about a month and 2 SAM's could basically 2hr and kill Nidhogg at 75? Oh right.

Baseless argument, you should of stopped at Ninja if you wanted to compare.

Everything aside, this isn't for some type of WS ego boost for DRG, it's to stress the actual use of it. Is Samurai and Warrior going to slap on a Polearm and use it? More than likely not, considering they have had better options for a long time and that list of better items keeps growing.

If you haven't tested, and you aren't showing hard numbers why jump on here to cry about how things are fine, and about how you're so old school you feel this warrants this and that. Go ahead and download the test client, and go run some numbers yourself on enemies. Be it EP, or not.

In the end it's going to be 100 merits for those who wish to get Stardiver. Why is it wrong to be able to compile information before hand that says... "It probably isn't gonna be worth while because of: Data" therefore, "Meh".

Again, this is from the people who have tested the weapon skill and ran the numbers. Would you feel better if the information for it was on Wikipedia or perhaps some other form of fashion?



tl;dr? - Summary -
For those who actually try to argue for the weapon skills sake, the argument is the same: But we get a whole +5% Crit rate increase for 60 seconds!

It's rather disappointing honestly, I'd expect solid responses which actually have some type of information within them. That supports or goes against Stardiver.

The topic is Stardiver testing/potential adjustments and information regarding Stardiver. Enough with the derailing of useless and baseless information that does absolutely nothing.

[Byrth]

It would have been nice if it had been Fragmentation. Even without an extra hit, then you could have gone Stardiver -> Drakes for Light and more reliable Drakes damage.

I'll trade you Exenterator's Fragmentation property for your Gravitation property. All sales final though. No takebacks.

[Amador]

It would have been nice if it had been Fragmentation. Even without an extra hit, then you could have gone Stardiver -> Drakes for Light and more reliable Drakes damage.

I'll trade you Exenterator's Fragmentation property for your Gravitation property. All sales final though. No takebacks.

That's what I'm talking about. See, that alone would increase it's useability.

[Dragonlord]

Uh, what? I think you need to review Club Options.


http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17069/moepapa-mace

[Amador]

http://www.ffxiah.com/item/17069/moepapa-mace

Like I said I no longer want derails, go Wiki White Mage and figure out what they have available for yourself. You're mistaken. That's all.

[Amador]

Spoke to Fitman on Test Server, he's done some testing as well on Stardiver.

fTP 100% = 0.75, 200% = 0.84375(216/256) and 300% = 0.9375.

:|

Meaning that the total fTP of this WS is:
100% = 3.0
200% = 3.375
300% = 3.75

Meaning?

With gorget and belt, as both at this current time are undisputed for this WS

100% = 3.78
200% = 4.155
300% = 4.53

Moonshade Earring +25 TP Bonus, Elemental Gorget, and Elemental Belt

Moonshade alone will raise these numbers by 0.09375 give or take (Revised with Byrth!)

Combined total will be: 0.28875

meaning
100% = 4.155
200% = 4.53
300% = 4.905

Which would be a much, much, much better an powerful upgrade to all of this realistically.

Even more so, if they (hopefully) adjust the fTP to being 1.0 across all 4 hits. Regardless, I guess it's safe to say TP Bonus is a big part of this WS at this time.

[Martel]

Like I said I no longer want derails, go Wiki White Mage and figure out what they have available for yourself. You're mistaken. That's all.

<derail>He wasn't talking about WHM club selection. He was referring to PLD encroaching on WHM's traditional territory(Club DD) via the combination of Moepapa mace(that one good Club PLD can wear) and realmrazer. </derail>

<ontopic>It's only -5% crit eva? That's disappointing. I'll probly still merit it fully, but only cause I keep running outta stuff to merit. And cause it's pretty. Hoping for adjustments when this is released on the main servers.</ontopic>

[Amador]

<derail>He wasn't talking about WHM club selection. He was referring to PLD encroaching on WHM's traditional territory(Club DD) via the combination of Moepapa mace(that one good Club PLD can wear) and realmrazer. </derail>

<ontopic>It's only -5% crit eva? That's disappointing. I'll probly still merit it fully, but only cause I keep running outta stuff to merit. And cause it's pretty. Hoping for adjustments when this is released on the main servers.</ontopic>

On topic response: Yes, I ran a couple of samples and crit rate continued to fluctuate quite a bit between 5-7% 9% rarely, so it's more than likely 5%. That or something such as 7%. It'd be nice if it was the latter, but only one sample showed 7% difference in both Wyvern and Dragoon.

[Amador]

I guess I can see why it's not a higher fTP bonus...

@1.0 fTP across the board it would be: 5.155 fTP mod @ 100% TP with Elemental Gorget/Belt. I wish I had a TP Bonus Earring, I feel... as if I haven't tested it fully because I lack one. Hmm.

Oh well I guess. Maybe as Byrth said, they'll allow through more meriting into this WS perhaps raising the Enemy Critical Hit Evasion from 5-7% to 10-15%. We'll see.

[Dragonlord]

Some testing has been done on other WS, it seems the ones with out an fTP lower than 1 don't get gorget/belt's fTP added to all hits. So if SE did change the WS to 1.0 across the board, it would also, most likely, only have first hit affected by fTP. Thus resulting in a total of 4.2 fTP WS.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4920585&viewfull=1#post4920585

Prothescar's testing on tachi: shoha

[scaevola]

I was to understand the only new WS that was much better than the (worthwhile) available Emp/Relic WSes for that job was Shoha. If Stardiver is an incremental improvement on Drakesbane, DRG is no better or worse off than nearly every other job.

Would Stardiver not benefit greatly from the TP Bonus polearm/Moonshade? I haven't seen information on the TP damage scaling but those weapon skills with damage varying by TP have traditionally done insanely well with such weapons, and it's not like non-Mythic DRGs have too many compelling weapon options otherwise.

[Amador]

I was to understand the only new WS that was much better than the (worthwhile) available Emp/Relic WSes for that job was Shoha. If Stardiver is an incremental improvement on Drakesbane, DRG is no better or worse off than nearly every other job.

Would Stardiver not benefit greatly from the TP Bonus polearm/Moonshade? I haven't seen information on the TP damage scaling but those weapon skills with damage varying by TP have traditionally done insanely well with such weapons, and it's not like non-Mythic DRGs have too many compelling weapon options otherwise.


Okay, so going by bolds...

Thing is, currently at a base of 100% TP, with just elemental gorget and belt. It's performance is lacking on EP-DC content. Which implies, that naturally vs NM tier monsters such as Qilin, Kaggen, Pil it'll be even less effective. If the critical evasion down was more potent, it'd be worth the sacrifice in damage as is. However, due to that being so small 5% give or take, it's not worth the over time DPS loss.

What was the point of these amazing ws's if the point is that they're no good in the end? Seems like wasted resources. If the test Server is indeed for us to test, and criticize and say: This could be better, then we and the people in support of threads that ask for a damage boost or utility boost via skill chain properties and or otherwise the additional effect then we're doing the right thing here by asking and stating that it could be better.

Yes Moonshade Earring TP Bonus +25, ATK +4 is a must to make this weapon worth while. You can check one page back to find info on effect of fTP raising equipment.

I don't understand the last bold, are you implying that you feel Mythic DRG's are a norm? If you have a Mythic, congratulations. But it's currently the only weapon that hasn't been turned into Easy Mode to obtain. It's very hard, and very expensive to acquire 30,000 Alexandrite.

However, for those 99% without Mythic any other polearm. Having a utility WS that is actually good would be nice.

[Ophannus]

but it's only 5% according to quite reliable tests.

Where are these tests that show it's 5%?

[Amador]

Some can be found my FF11ah posts. Deducting base wyvern critical hit rate and the rough test of what dex provides to crit rate - current crit rate shows 5-7% with room for slight errors, other previous tests showed 5% and or less than 5%.

All in all, if a admin can please lock this thread. I fear that you may make this WS weaker simply so that it doesn't over shadow Penta Thrust.

Thanks, bye.

[Ophannus]

Link to the data? What was the sample size?

[SpankWustler]

This is what I went by when I quoted 5%. (http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/106679-Test-Server-Findings?p=4920155&viewfull=1#post4920155)

Not totally infallible, but solid. It certainly eliminates any large values. I tried to dig up a link before, but digging through the many pages of a hundred page topic makes my wiener hurt so I gave up on finding it.

[Ophannus]

That is an astoundingly small sample size. He tested what like 10 mobs?

[Ophannus]

His tests showed a 7.3% crit rate boost, it could be 5, it could be 10, it could be 7. Needs a sample size in the order of 10,000+. 49 WS whatever doesn't cut it. Pretty huge margin of error with such a small sample size.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Not really if you're looking at noncrits at capped crit rate.

[Amador]

His tests showed a 7.3% crit rate boost, it could be 5, it could be 10, it could be 7. Needs a sample size in the order of 10,000+. 49 WS whatever doesn't cut it. Pretty huge margin of error with such a small sample size.

Do you even know what you're saying?

Increased WS's wouldn't matter. Simply number of hits after WS was made.

Control tests were done

Meaning: Engage -> WS as first action -> Let your character and Wyvern Swing.

I have more samples than w/e you're quoting at 49, I have extensive sample sizes which show my Wyvern with 200 hits and 4.3% Critical Hit Rate, and my character with 19% Critical Hit Rate on dolls in sky.

About 4-5 tests all with over 200 hits, including pet. So how is the margin for error so vast when you have 2 test subjects?

There's no Rhyme or reason why Wyvern test would show 4.3% Critical Hit Rate when base should be 5% right? Perhaps it was a small sample on that end, pretty horrid luck if you ask me.

All in all, you can't ignore the Crit Rate you gain from dex. You're seeing 7.3% technical, without accounting for the variance dex can give. Which even more so leans it towards 5%, and not 10%.

It's not just me who found a small number, it's other people. NA, JP. All currently agree that it's 5%. Trash is trash man, it'll take a lot to make this weapon skill mean crap especially with the new Nyzul Gear coming out that just bleeds Drakesbane. Face it, short straw is short.