The DD Balancing Game

[Selzak]

First of all, these new categories were a great idea. I'd like to open up discussion about what each DD job 'means' in terms of of strengths and weaknesses, and hopefully create a positive effect on game balance with this effort.

I'll include my views later, because I don't think it'd be fair to have my personal opinions in the OP since that might insinuate that my opinions are the general consensus of everyone.

EX:
What should a DRK be, and how can it get there?
Why would your ideas help DRK?
Would it be fair for DRK to be able to be capable of these things?

It would be lovely if we could have an objective thread that focuses on the goal of having a balanced game where all jobs are uniquely capable of fitting different roles within the DD spectrum.

[Kaida]

I dunno, somekind of WS that uses MP?

[Selzak]

I dunno, somekind of WS that uses MP?
That's actually an awesome idea for DRK...although possibly overpowered.

It would probably have to be more like an MP-based Ability than a WS. Like Zeid's Abyssal Strike. Or maybe an ability that consumes MP to boost WS damage (applied when WS is used).

Interesting idea.


I didn't mean to talk exclusively about DRK by the way, that was just an example of how a post might look.


I think another DD with a lot of room for creativity is DRG. It might be cool if wyverns had a couple more interesting breaths (or even randomly did a more powerful breath every so often).

[Brolic]

merited job trait that causes souleater drain mp instead of hp so this new crap scythe ws can be worth something

[Selzak]

Since we're still on DRK:

A trait that randomly triggers a weakened Blood Weapon effect on melee attacks would fit well. (like 5% unmerited)

Also, Quick Magic as a trait (activating occasionally) would be very helpful for DRK's casting problems. I think PLD and DRK should both have this trait, but PLD discussion doesn't belong here I suppose.


Important to note; I don't think DRK needs much in the way of melee damage, I'd rather it get utility boosts from here out. It doesn't have to deal the most damage but it should be able to bring something unique to the table if not. There are tons of interesting Undead-type spells and abilities to think about, I feel like SE has really dropped the ball with this job.

[Draco]

I very much enjoy the spirit of this thread and really I think this is how the game should be approached - with so many dd jobs, the focus should be on how each job performs the damage role as opposed to being ranked largely by damage. Years ago when we hunted IT+ mobs and had balanced parties with sc's and whatnot, the idea of each job having its specific dd role was very much relevant, but with the general shift towards tp burn setups its really boiled down to nothing more than a damage-survival consideration.

I shall focus on Dragoon, obviously being the best job in the game. :D


I think a DRG should be the 'safe' DD, as in the DD that won't strain the party's hate dynamics and doesn't need excessive healing. Its damage (and thus enmity) is split between the DRG and the wyvern, it has enmity shedding jumps in addition to spirit version enmity avoidance, and the ability to avoid high damage aoe attacks with super jump. Combine this with the addition of a free heal every minute for the DRG or a party member and you have a fairly clear role.

There are currently a few problems with this though, but 2 overwhelming ones standout:
-Utsusemi(Seigan+Third eye to a lesser degree). Who needs to be a low maintenance DD when anyone can go all out and effectively tank the mob until someone else takes it?
-TP. Even if you can damage the mob without taxing party resources, you're still feeding the mob TP and making the fight more difficult, hence the tank on mob only + mages approach to small manning everything.

Its rather daunting to think about how DRG can uniquely address these issues to fulfill this safe dd role without changing underlying game balance. Really I think these two things play a large part in an attempt to give any DD job a specific role beyond simply being the dd of x dps value. Every job is the same paper cannon behind a damage avoidance ability trying to kill the mob before their rampant tp feeding gets them killed.

You have hate transfer abilities such as the ones Thief has...Long gone are the days of first voke, sa+ta on tank, heh.
You have subtle blow traits that a number of jobs get, DRG wyvern included.
These abilities don't really change much for the jobs that have them and I don't think it would be entirely fair to have DRG start to infringe upon the THF role.

Really I'm just musing a bit to spur discussion, I don't have a very solid answer for this one. Possibly some type of 'Jump Stance' for lack of a better name. A 5 minute duration/5 minute cooldown ability that reduces the cooldown of jump abilities while adjusting their damage/range/enmity/tp generation in some fashion that controls the balance. The trade off being you are unable to attack as normal. The vision for this ability would be to basically transform DRG into a mid range nuker of sorts for mobs that normally you would not let a dd on. So instead of meleeing it as normal, the DRG takes up a position somewhere near the mage line and hits the mob(likely a NM in this scenario) with high damage/low tp jump attacks in a somewhat similar fashion to magical nukes... or hell, the old run in, ws, run out style - just more sustained and less running.

In terms of raw damage, this method would no doubt be less damaging than standard melee+ws fighting, but it would give DRG the ability to damage very dangerous mobs in accordance with its safe dd role. I think it would be fair as this would not put DRG above any other DD's in terms of actual damage ability, it would just increase the range of targets that a DRG would be useful against - which fits the basic idea of a safe dd.

[Kensagaku]

I'll help get this ball rolling, as this looks like an interesting thread. I'm gonna use my favorite DD and my very first job: DRG! Yes, lolDRG, the DD that's rarely seen anymore. :|

Truth be told, DRG used to be an upper-tier DD for a while. Technically, in terms of damage, it still is. But comparative to the number of procs that other "main" jobs (NIN, WAR, MNK) get in Abyssea, it tends to be left out more often than not. Outside, it's not a bad job, but Drakesbane suffers against, for example, mobs like the T3s on the Jeuno/Zilart Voidwatch Path. I tell you, seeing a 300-400 damage Drakesbane really hurt, especially since spamming Wheeling Thrust for 600-800 was more effective. This is with Sole Sushi and my current WS set (See here (http://www.ffxiah.com/item-sets/221069)), which has a fair amount of accuracy in it yet Drakes still misses a few important hits.

What I'd like to see is for DRG to truly become a top-tier DD again. One of its biggest damage-dealing capabilities is the ability to deal a lot of damage with weapon skills and attacks while being able to shed hate quite quickly. Super Jump, and now the hateless Soul/Spirit Jumps for your TP gaining are all ways of keeping hate off of you. You can also substitute Soul Jump for High Jump if you need a little extra enmity loss. DRG is also a fairly self-sufficient DD using a good Healing Breath set, especially with how survivable our wyvern has become lately (Though Pil still eats him in 2-3 TP moves!).

The problem with being a low-hate DD now is that it's easy to cap enmity for just about any melee job. You wouldn't be surprised if hate swings off of the tank onto you with a single hit and then right back on your tank's next move, and as a result the ability to shed hate isn't as vital because it's not hard to take hate off of the tank for any DD, not just DRG. It's good for your own survivability, but it really takes away from the original purpose of keeping hate solely on your tank(s). As a result DRG has lost its niche in a way as a DD who can do incredible damage without fear of peeling hate away from the tank at a bad time. We pretty much are unique now only through jumping for TP and we have a wyvern whose usefulness is questionable. Breaths are of limited use for Voidwatch because they like to stick with 1-2 weak elements (mine liked Flame Breath on Pil, for example, when it was Thunder Breath for proc), and Healing Breath is only good until your wyvern starts croaking from TP moves and your once-per-three-minutes Spirit Link isn't quite enough to keep them going.

I'm not really sure how to improve this, however, to make DRG more of a unique job. I'd like to see some ease on the breaths - for example, use a menu like Quick Draw where you select Smiting Breath -> Specific Breath rather than Smiting Breath and pray you get lucky - as well as some improvements like Healing Breath IV (which I heard was coming?). But more than those breaths I'd like to see the DRG's unique role come back in being a reduced-hate DD. What do you think are some ideas to offer this?

[Deadvinta]

Since we're still on DRK:

A trait that randomly triggers a weakened Blood Weapon effect on melee attacks would fit well. (like 5% unmerited)

Also, Quick Magic as a trait (activating occasionally) would be very helpful for DRK's casting problems. I think PLD and DRK should both have this trait, but PLD discussion doesn't belong here I suppose.


Important to note; I don't think DRK needs much in the way of melee damage, I'd rather it get utility boosts from here out. It doesn't have to deal the most damage but it should be able to bring something unique to the table if not. There are tons of interesting Undead-type spells and abilities to think about, I feel like SE has really dropped the ball with this job.

Paladins can fit into DD spectrum, neither on the top nor the bottom. They're either on-par or just below Dark Knights with Great Sword proficiency and, even though it's worthless these days, get their own, exclusive weaponskill for Sword.

[Draco]

The problem with being a low-hate DD now is that it's easy to cap enmity for just about any melee job. You wouldn't be surprised if hate swings off of the tank onto you with a single hit and then right back on your tank's next move, and as a result the ability to shed hate isn't as vital because it's not hard to take hate off of the tank for any DD, not just DRG. It's good for your own survivability, but it really takes away from the original purpose of keeping hate solely on your tank(s).

I think you hit a crucial point here, though its a game balance issue, I think it may need to be addressed in general. Damage output these days just outpaces efforts of tank jobs to really control hate through any means other than damage.

The idea of having more control over the wyvern, being able to specifically pick breaths is an interesting one. Could take it further and have the ability to have it attack and disengage independently of you, both would help with being a reduced-hate dd by allowing us to more effectively damage without putting more hate on ourselves.

Not sure if we should have more control over our wyverns than say a bst or pup has over their companion though. SMNs are able to select specific actions because summoning is literally all they can do, but we all have melee to go along with it.

[Saiken253]

Speaking of SMN~!

SMN is another job that I love very much, but with the level cap increased from 75, it really has fallen behind im comparison to other jobs outside of solo situations. Imo, 1 BIG thing that could really help SMNs is individual CDs of each Bloodpact. Now I know what all of you are instantly thinking, "OMG! They can just spam all their BPs now! HAX!" here's the thing. BLMs can spam all their spells and do a LOT of damage then instantly wipe their hate. SMNs would be somewhat similar in that respect, they would spend all their MP using their BPs, which means they'd have to use a few abilities to regain their lost MP.

Yes I know SMNs now have refresh and convert now alongside Elemental Siphon, but those only go so far. Plus, SMNs only really have 3 damaging BPs each pet at most, the rest is utility for the most part. Also, 2 of those 3 damaging BPs are reliant on our pet's TP, which IF we're spamming our offensive moves, it won't be quite as good as saving our pet's TP. Yes we have Mana Cede, but that's once every 5min and we sacrifice 100mp to use it, which drains our mana reserves even faster(it may not seem like a lot, but it can really mean the difference, especially if out pet's ability is interrupted in some fashion, which still uses up our pet's TP).

And I know what people can do if this does come into light: Save up TP in our pet, use our Merit BP for our pet, Mana Cede, Use the T4 nuke(which can still do considerable damage, but not as powerful as a decently geared blm), then the level 70BP(predator claws and the like), then keep doing merit > lvl70 > T4; but again, that's using up a LOT of mp and not doing as much damage as a BLM. And we come to my next point: SMNs are basically like DRGs in this respect, we're the safe DD Mage. We're supposed to do damage, albeit not quite as much as a BLM or SCH, but we don't draw any hate to us.

Our second role is to be a back up <insert role here> for emergencies as well. Many times I have had my pet tank some high tier NMs when we needed to recover or something along those lines. Now I'm not saying that I'm the grandmaster of summoning, but SMN is a job that definitely needs some reworking. As some other SMNs on other forums have said, "SMN keeps getting more tricks up their sleeve, but we can't do anything more than what we could do since level 1".

[Saiken253]

1 last thing that SMN needs is to have Job Traits for their pets. Like Shiva have Magic Attack Bonus and other mage properties, Titan have defense Bonus and critical defense bonus stuff like that. Things that reflect them as summons, their element, and what each of them do. However, I believe all of them should have innate Double Attack/Triple Attack; The primes get it and our pets are definitely much higher level than they are.

[Economizer]

That's actually an awesome idea for DRK...although possibly overpowered.

Not really, just make it ~400 MP per TP and you basically have the effect of Occult Acumen without the casting or extra TP from the effects of Store TP. An insta-cast 400 MP cost spell would be an easy solution I suppose, but what would it do? I think that is part of the problem. Recast delay would easily solve any potential abuse though.


There are currently a few problems with this though, but 2 overwhelming ones standout:

Actually, the problem I see stand out is that mobs spam large AoE spells every chance they get in the name of making it hard. I wish there was a mob that hit hard, fast, but somehow didn't hit Paladins very hard, and only used single target abilities. Would make it much safer to stand near a mob instead of having sixteen people stand as far as possible while still being in casting/ranged attack range.

[Foldypaws]

1 last thing that SMN needs is to have Job Traits for their pets. Like Shiva have Magic Attack Bonus and other mage properties, Titan have defense Bonus and critical defense bonus stuff like that. Things that reflect them as summons, their element, and what each of them do. However, I believe all of them should have innate Double Attack/Triple Attack; The primes get it and our pets are definitely much higher level than they are.

Avatars do have job traits. All the celestials are BLM and have the MAB of a BLM equal to their level. (They probably have Magic Burst Bonus too, but I've not tested it.)

Carby is a WHM and has MDB and Auto-Regen (II).

Pretty sure Fenrir and Diabolos are BLM as well, but I'm not 100% on that.

[Saiken253]

Avatars do have job traits. All the celestials are BLM and have the MAB of a BLM equal to their level. (They probably have Magic Burst Bonus too, but I've not tested it.)

Carby is a WHM and has MDB and Auto-Regen (II).

Pretty sure Fenrir and Diabolos are BLM as well, but I'm not 100% on that.

If they do say have the MAB trait, it's definitely not as strong as a BLM, otherwise my BPs without TP would be doing damage very similar to a BLM. However just more MAB isn't all that SMN needs. Natural pet Double Attack/Triple Attack would be very much welcomed, just to help give our pets more TP for our magic and healing BPs. Also, Summoning Magic should more greatly affect our pets. Such as more ATK, ACC, MAB, MACC, Defense, MDB, Evasion, basically make Summoning Magic be something along the lines of every skill that we use as a character, our pets use; but scale it down a little cause it would indeed be a little too good to say have my near 500 Summoning Magic also count as near 500 Evasion(much higher than even a THF) at lvl95. I'm just trying to think of ideas to help this job come up to speed with the other jobs in a situation outside Soloing so that it becomes more appealing to have in a group again.

[Sutiban]

I think each job should have it's roll as defined by the "Holy Circle" or the other abilities that give people a "resistance" to a certain creature. Paladins get Holy Circle which increases their resistance to undead, DRK's get resistance to Arcana and so on. Those should be the backbone of each job.

DRKs = Pure DPS but lack an "awesome" weapon skill. I think they should be able to tank somewhat(not for this thread) and this job has been neglected through some of the updates. I do like the mp based weapon skill idea because that would force BRD and RDM to refresh them more often.

DRG = spam Drakesbane and can just solo on it's own(thus why we never see it in parties). I would like to see the wyvern grow in size as you level up to a full wyvern(not the size of Shinryu) and do other attacks than breathe and normal round robin.

SAM = pwnage as far as Great Katanas, decent at polearm and also decent at ranged so why can they ONLY use Namas Arrow(if you have relic bow upgraded) without Ranger sub? They can also solo light and darkness skill chains so they're a little OP right now. I'm sorry but when you can use 2 different abilities, not including 2 hr, and do 2 light or darkness sc's...that's kinda OP and no other job can do it(2 light or dark back-to-back...DNC can only self sc once).

THF = having TH as a trigger ability kinda messed up a lot of things. I'm not even sure if TH works with THF as a sub. I remember doing SAM/THF and doing 1k dmg with Tachi: Gekko at lvl 66. Steal and Mug on 5 minute CDs seems kinda high to me and maybe should be at 3 minutes(or less if they're 3 minute CDs now). THF should still be the "maintainer" of enmity.

DNC = Not much in terms of dps. Can self skillchain but I would like to see something new here but i can't put my finger on it. I'm doubting that the steps even do anything to the mob that's being attacked or i just don't notice much in terms of damage or magical damage increase.

PUP = DRG + MNK put together. I've never partied with a good PUP before or they just didn't do much in terms of party balance so i can't say much.

SCH and BLM = I don't play SCH but my BLM can pull enmity with just 1 spell even at the end of the fight so enmity dynamics would definitely need an overhaul.

SMN = depends on how you play. Normaly, i look for a smn/whm to help with healing if i can't find a whm, rdm or sch to heal the party. Most of the time, the SMN doesn't want to party because then they can't use their Avatars. There's still some Avatars that need to be added in order for me to actively play my SMN. I'm talking Phoenix(spelling?) and Bahamut and get rid of the "must use 2hr" for Alex and Odin. If i have a pact with these Avatars, i want to be able to whip them out whenever i want. Make their abilities cost a lot of MP and deal a lot of enmity to the SMN and not Avatar(enmity + for Avatar would then be a lot more helpful to the SMN). Each Avatar needs to be special and i don't mean in terms of Shiva = Ice and Titan = Earth. I mean like Titan = Tank, Carby = heals(i.e. smn casts cure 2 on someone, thus Carby uses Healing Ruby on them without smn going into BPs). Levy = regen/refresh...see where i'm going with this? I don't just mean whatever the Avatar's pressence thing is...make the Avatar much more Special than they really are.

MNK = Accuracy isn't the greatest at lower lvls so might need a boost in that catagory. I'm a firm believer that MNKs should be able to use 2 different fist/claw(h2h) weapons. Think of it from FF4 when you had an Ice Fist on your R-hand and a Flame Fist on your L-hand. This would open up the way for some pretty awesome debuffs from added effects on h2h weapons.(nin's can equip 2 different katanas so think of it like that). Some h2h weapons can have a small "shield" on them that would allow MNKs to tank and/or guard more often(my mnk is 95 and my guard skill is still below 100 so i rarely guard).

NIN = DPS nin would use Innin. I don't know about others but my nin gets enmity really quick standing behind a mob and doing a critical hit every hit add into that doing a ws about ever 10 seconds and now the DPS nin is actually Tanking. Defeats the purpose of using Innin at this point. Innin should have an enmity - effect on it so the nin can focus on elemental spells(if it already does and/or has this, then it needs boosted). San spells don't do any where near the same dmg as Tier 3 BLM spells so they need a slight boost. NIN also has the most Catagory 2 merits to pick from. Sange, Nin Tool Expert, and 6 elemental San spells....need to balance the # of "abilities" in Cat. 2 and/or make the 6 San spells learnable from ra/ex scrolls that need to be quested and add 2-4 more abilities to get from the gap the san spells would make. I wouldn't mind seeing an actual Throwing weaponskill(or a couple) that can be learned via merits....would actually make Sange useful since it would use up the shadows you have left to throw something(up to 5x dmg on ws if you have +2 boots).

Overall Balancing...

I thought some new weapon types would be kinda nice as well. I haven't seen a Flail or a 2h mace yet.

Gear - I really can't say much as far as JSE goes. I think haste+ on most of the AF3 pieces was a little bit overboard.

Server Balancing - Bare with me...

Relic, Mythic, Empy Weapons = As far as the couple of servers i've played on, none of the players(i'm generalizing here) do not help each other out with these unless you're in a Dynamis shell(but chances are, you're helping the LS Leader upgrade his/her weapon). Countless times i've been shouting for help for farming Briareus helms and NO ONE answers me. The sense of helping each other just isn't there anymore and it's turning me away from this game...also why i'm farming ancient currency as bst for relic weapons. That reminds me. The cost of ancient currency has remained the same even though the drop rate has been increased. So, if you're that DPS(or anyone for that matter), I think the amount of currency you need to upgrade Relic, Mythic or Empy should be at least halved, i.e. relic katana requires 400 Byne Bills, 1600 Whiteshells, 6100 Bronzepieces and 10,000 Byne Bills but with them being in half, people may start farming Dynamis again because they can upgrade faster and not spending countless months trying to get to the next stage. Empy weapons are the same way...50 Briareus helms would be 25, then 25 Sobek skins, then say 40 horns(would be 37.5 but good luck getting that half a horn to drop...). I know these special weapons shouldn't be here as far as DD balancing but think of it if you could lock in your weapon....what else would you need to change to increase your DD capabilities?

The book burns and Abyssea Alliance XP parties need to go away, FOR EVER. Yeah, it's a fast way to lvl up but NO ONE is learning what they're supposed to do or how that job is played. Instead of earning your levels, your levels are just being handed to you for being in a party. I could be lvl 30 and be lvl 95 in probably a day if i had the time(or i could be like 60% of everyone that plays and just AFK it). I've been in Abyssea parties and people were like "what's a magic burst? I just did one with Bio2." The game dynamics were bypassed with Abyssea and now it's time to go back to the roots of FFXI. /insert_Player_memory_wipe_here/ and make everyone start over at lvl 1 again without the alliance book burns and what not.

Sorry to put a lot into 1 post but these are things i've been thinking about for a while that i strongly believe(or wished for the relic weapons to cost less to upgrade) would make the game more enjoyable for me. Some people my agree with me, and well, most probably won't(especially the people that have upgrade relics already).

[Saiken253]

I also thought of a way to help PLDs with their DPS. Have something similar to Occult Accumen for their Healing Magic. More TP = more WS = more hate gain. Just a thought.

[Tagrineth]

I actually like the "jump stance" idea for DRG. Especially since - just an FYI for anyone unaware - Jumps do not feed TP. Would make DRG phenomenal for small group combat.

[wish12oz]

I think it would be fun if DRK got occasionally quickens casting time 100%, and got 20 TP for t3 nukes from occult acuman or whatever that gain TP froms pells trait is. You could interlace t3 nukes with melee attacks to increase WS frequency, and spam the new scythe WS for the MP back. It would make DRK handle differently then all the other melee jobs and be set apart as it's own thing.

EDIT: you'd probably need to reduce MP cost and increase recast time for this to be effective though.

[Kensagaku]

@Sutiban

I'm sorry, but you lost me several times on this post, especially your description of each job, DRG in particular. Being only a Drakesbane spammer? There's more to the job than that, buddy. Either you haven't played DRG yourself, or you don't play it well. Wyvern growing bigger? Wtf? Lumiere already blocks enough of my camera when he flies in at bad angles, if he gets any bigger I'm gonna have a hard time seeing. Not only that, but I imagine a larger pet is gonna create lag issues if you get it to full wyvern size. I don't know why anyone thinks a bigger wyvern is a good idea... frankly it's a waste of time that developers can use to create new content or better systems.

SMN - Your ideas for upping Avatars is far overpowered too. Avatars already have enough specialties to them, considering they have a native PDT-50%, they're cheap to cast and maintain (a good SMN can still be gaining MP back with an avatar back, I'm currently at +2 MP/tick without weather or Nashira hands even with an avatar out), and they've got a wide variety of abilities, several with utility. The only downside they have is the Blood Pact timer, which makes the utility abilities more likely to be brushed aside in terms of something more powerful. Sure, I'd like to see a bit more strength to their individual hits - right now they're only good for feeding TP outside of blood pacts - but for the most part, they don't need as much of an overhaul in the direction you suggest.

Also, I'm against getting Phoenix/Bahamut. I'd like them, don't get me wrong, but Phoenix was bound to the Far East as I recall, and again if memory serves, wasn't Phoenix reborn in Selh'teus? I highly doubt that we're gonna kill him to get that summoning pact. Bahamut's the Wyrmking as well; I doubt that he's going to stoop to help us. That aside, he's just simply too big. You summon him and he's gonna be a cause of so much lag. At best I could see a sorta ethereal summoning of him for a 2hr blast (I'd love to surprise enemies with a Gigaflare to the face) but rather in the sense of the old Astral Flows - once per BP: Rage and the effect lasts for 3 minutes.

NIN - Like throwing? Please view This thread (http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxi/threads/5423-A-Ninja-without-Throwing...). It has been rehashed several times that throwing would actually take away from a NIN's damage, and why, unless you make an overpowered Shuriken that can do 6x the damage of a regular melee swing. As for Elemental Ninjutsu - with the right builds, they can match T3s from BLM spells, albeit just barely or with difficulty. Namely MAB (there's augmentable gear and All Jobs gear, etc), Ninjutsu skill (which determines damage now), and Futae. The Elemental Wheel was good back when NINs didn't have the DPS that they have now as a means of holding hate while tanking, but right now all casting ninjutsu does is detract from your DPS. Also, Innin does have an emnity- effect to it when you're behind the enemy; you just still stack up hate too easily because hate caps are pathetically easy to reach nowadays.

And as for book burning... god I've heard this argument so many times before. It's not that people burning their job to 95 prevents them from knowing the job. As the statement goes: "Retards will always be retards." I hate the saying because it sounds so aggressive, but it's a true statement. People can EXP or they can burn, and if they can't figure out how to play the job then they're not going to learn it from either method. Most jobs take about an hour to get most of the easy/medium tactics learned, and then it's only EG experience that's going to teach them how to do the advanced stuff. The only thing that slow leveling is good for is new players until they understand the concept of enmity, etc. Skill-ups are nice too but for the most part (I'm looking at you, Enhancing and Healing ;~; ) they aren't too hard to get with an hour or two skilling by yourself.

[Foldypaws]

If they do say have the MAB trait, it's definitely not as strong as a BLM, otherwise my BPs without TP would be doing damage very similar to a BLM. However just more MAB isn't all that SMN needs. Natural pet Double Attack/Triple Attack would be very much welcomed, just to help give our pets more TP for our magic and healing BPs. Also, Summoning Magic should more greatly affect our pets. Such as more ATK, ACC, MAB, MACC, Defense, MDB, Evasion, basically make Summoning Magic be something along the lines of every skill that we use as a character, our pets use; but scale it down a little cause it would indeed be a little too good to say have my near 500 Summoning Magic also count as near 500 Evasion(much higher than even a THF) at lvl95. I'm just trying to think of ideas to help this job come up to speed with the other jobs in a situation outside Soloing so that it becomes more appealing to have in a group again.

It's the same strength as a BLM.

Your BPs without TP don't do the same damage as a BLMs spell for two reasons. 1) BLM wears a bunch of MAB gear and staves, on top of their traits. 2) The BPs aren't spells. They're elemental WS that just happen to share a name with spells.

[Saiken253]

It's the same strength as a BLM.

Your BPs without TP don't do the same damage as a BLMs spell for two reasons. 1) BLM wears a bunch of MAB gear and staves, on top of their traits. 2) The BPs aren't spells. They're elemental WS that just happen to share a name with spells.

they should though(at least atm) simply because we can't fire off our BPs nowhere near as fast as a blm can with their magic. TBH though, I'd be fine with where my damage is right now, I just want more frequent use of my BPs than I do. I.E. give each BP their own cooldown, that will help out SMNs the greatest. I'm not saying my damage is crappy, my merit BPs without tp do 3k+ and full TP they do 4500+(without the set bonus procs which doubles those #s, but i have an extremely well-geared smn) which is similar to a blm. However, BLM can do roughly 5~8 spells in the time it takes for our Bloodpact: Rage to recharge, and then they can just erase their hate. So I think if they aren't going to change the BP system, they should definitely increase our damage, but if they DO change the BP system to each BP has it's own CD, then the damage can stay the same.

[Foldypaws]

*shrug* I'm just explaining that the mechanics are consistent. Not saying that makes them *good*, or that they shouldn't change, just that they do match up.

I leave my balance complaints for THF and DRG these days >_>

[Saiken253]

heh I would like to see some love for DRG :< i miss my dragon!

[wish12oz]

NIN = DPS nin would use Innin. I don't know about others but my nin gets enmity really quick standing behind a mob and doing a critical hit every hit add into that doing a ws about ever 10 seconds and now the DPS nin is actually Tanking. Defeats the purpose of using Innin at this point. Innin should have an enmity - effect on it so the nin can focus on elemental spells(if it already does and/or has this, then it needs boosted). San spells don't do any where near the same dmg as Tier 3 BLM spells so they need a slight boost. NIN also has the most Catagory 2 merits to pick from. Sange, Nin Tool Expert, and 6 elemental San spells....need to balance the # of "abilities" in Cat. 2 and/or make the 6 San spells learnable from ra/ex scrolls that need to be quested and add 2-4 more abilities to get from the gap the san spells would make. I wouldn't mind seeing an actual Throwing weaponskill(or a couple) that can be learned via merits....would actually make Sange useful since it would use up the shadows you have left to throw something(up to 5x dmg on ws if you have +2 boots).


Oh man, how did I miss making fun of throwing ninjas the first time I replied to this.

Innin actually has a -enmity effect to it, the problem is that every mob in the game is either so weak you can't use Innin, or so strong even with Innin you do crap damage and should of played a different job. The only correct answer to fix Innin, is to allow it's use from the front.

San spells are sort of in the same group as Innin, and suck. You shouldn't be using them except for trying to proc in voidwatch, and I along with most ninjas think we have enough to do and don't want nuking to be made super good, it's fine how it is, if you really want to use it, no one is stopping you, but it's less effective then meleeing.

Ninja has the worst catagory 2 merits to pick from, you're required to put 1 into each san spell for Voidwatch, and sange/throwing is absolutely terrible and not worth using at all, and there is no reasonable way to fix this, so the rest you dump into ninja tool expertise. Higher damage san spells doesn't help anything, so you might as well try and save some gil.

As for why sange/throwing isn't useful:
I've posted the math like 15 times int he ninja forum already, and I don't feel like looking for it again, but you lose damage by throwing, and you also loose damage by using sange as opposed to just meleeing. So don't ask for it to be better, it just isn't happening because of the nature of ranged attacks and how they work. Also, throwing weapon skills cannot be added, SE said so.

I do agree completely with your statement of 'remove san spells from merit catagory2 and give us something useful,' its pretty aggravating that NIN merits (tier 1 and tier 2) are such crap and completely useless.

[rufuslupus]

It's the same strength as a BLM.


replying to clear confusion.

let me 1st remind you about nukes. unlike blms, 1 element is not stronger than the other for summoners. this further contributes to why blms nuke higher. all avatar tier nukes have exactly the same damage output (excluding said mobs resists), and same said for merit magical pacts.

2nd, avatars do not have a magic attack bonus trait. if they do, than it's the same as a drk or a sch. magicial pact damage varies with tp. the tp stands in for the trait. but as you know 1 element is not stronger then the other so even with 300% tp, blms still perform better. if you want the same mab as a blm theres only 1 thing you can do, get nirvana.

in continuing with se's smn tradition of giving smn tier 2 nukes at level 10 and tier 4 nukes at level 60, i think se should give smn tier 6 nukes at level 99.

sure they'll all do the same damage but it will sure make blms jealous. ;)

[Foldypaws]

2nd, avatars do not have a magic attack bonus trait. if they do, than it's the same as a drk or a sch.

No, you're wrong. On two counts. 1: DRK and SCH don't get MAB traits. 2: You can easily test how much MAB avatars have natively by looking at the damage change from adding Avatar MAB merits.

At level 95, adding 5 avatar MAB merits increases magical BP damage by ~ 7% (1.5/1.4), not 10% (1.1/1.). You can verify this with gear with avatar MAB on it as well.

BLM have 40 MAB in traits at 95, just like Avatars.

[rufuslupus]

No, you're wrong. On two counts. 1: DRK and SCH don't get MAB traits.

thx for explaining the joke in that closing sentience.


BLM have 40 MAB in traits at 95, just like Avatars.

but then wouldn't fervor ring that gives ifrit "magic attack bonus" not work then?

your saying that the avatar already has the mab trait without merits, so the trait given by that ring shouldn't be granted because ifrit already has it.

of course if it does stack that just means that se messed up the english translations on avatar bonus granting items. the ring should really say +4 mab.

[TybudX]

Fervor Ring gives Ifrit MAB +2 as far as I know. The wording on the item is confusing and misleading, like many other items.

[Ritsuka]

I dont think drk is under powered there pretty good at damage ppl just dont know how to control there damage lol

[Saiken253]

I dont think drk is under powered there pretty good at damage ppl just dont know how to control there damage lol

We can be very good at damage dealing, but it requires a lot of high-end gear and knowing the job more than in-and-out. Timing your swings so that you keep swinging through your casting animations is 1 example. knowing exactly when you should use certain abilities(looking at you Souleater and lolScarlet Delirium...) as well as, if you want to be considered a good DRK, being able to stun any TP move that needs to be stunned.

But back to the point, it's just so much easier to be a good WAR, SAM, DRG, MNK, or any of the other melee for 2 reasons: They don't have to worry about spells(unless it's for Utsusemi, but that's easy). Then they have extremely favorable WS stat mods and mostly better WS fTP mods(i.e. Guillotine is .875 across the board, Pentathrust is 1 across the board, or Drakesbane, or Raging Rush, or just about any other decent and better WS has better mods than most of what DRK has by comparison). Something that DRK needs is an easier time and less gimmicks, instead of frantically trying to do everything that the job is capable of(while trying to keep impeccable timing to not mess up their DPS swings). The idea behind the DRK was sacrifice for gain, being a Spellsword of sorts and a glass-cannon, but the sacrifices we make aren't proportional(Souleater, for example, may do exactly as it says it does, but we die that much faster instead of killing our mob). However, WAR is a cannon with little downside and can tank with basically no sacrifice. SAM can be as well and can tank. DRG can be a cannon as well, with very little hate gain and can heal fairly well. MNK can be the high-powered machine gun that can tank. Ninja is Ninja, if you're good you're good; if not, learn to be good it's not hard. THF is like ninja, but more damage. BLU is a monster if it spams spells(and is geared well), a very good staple if being conservative. BLM is also a monster than can wipe it's hate then start being conservative. RNG is very powerful and idk why more people don't play it as well as COR(other than the BS prices for ammunition).

Maybe make the gains greater for the sacrifices that DRKs make. not too much, just a little boost would be nice. Some ideas that have recently popped up for DRK seem nice, but they need to be executed correctly.

[Greatguardian]

I want to dual wield guns on Corsair.

That is all.

[Zerich]

SCH and BLM = I don't play SCH but my BLM can pull enmity with just 1 spell even at the end of the fight so enmity dynamics would definitely need an overhaul.



wait, you pull hate with one nuke...





judging you

[Koten]

play sam /thread

[Theytak]

thx for explaining the joke in that closing sentience.



but then wouldn't fervor ring that gives ifrit "magic attack bonus" not work then?

your saying that the avatar already has the mab trait without merits, so the trait given by that ring shouldn't be granted because ifrit already has it.

of course if it does stack that just means that se messed up the english translations on avatar bonus granting items. the ring should really say +4 mab.

...seriously? Isn't fairly common knowledge that every piece of armor in the game that says "magic attack bonus" is just MAB+? I mean, Uggy Pendant doesn't have a +value on it, but no one questions that it gives +MAB to blm...


THF is like ninja, but more damage.

lolwut? Also, no pup? Sure, pup can't keep up with godmodesam or ukon wars, but a good pup can keep up with most of the other DD jobs fairly easily. I mean you included thf. Everyone knows thfs don't do damage. (I'm mostly trolling thfs here, because I feel a sense of camaraderie towards their plight at the hands of the devs, since I'm a pup, and no one ever remembers that pups even exist.)

[Saiken253]

Sorry about the PUP neglect, I like the job myself but, as you said, I forgot about it ; ;(been forever since i've had a chance to play it ._.) but I stand by that fact that you quoted from me haha.

[idx1]

Coming with the new update BLU is able to drain 900+, which a DRK can only hope of doing.

I personally disagree with this as much as I would enjoy the prospect on 99BLU.

IF BLU can drain better than a DRK, then DRK should get something that nobody else can do.

Like....Drain-everything-from-yo-fayce.
HP/MP/TP+str/dex/vit/the works.

Balance the numbers so its not literally 12 spells at once.

But a BLU shouldn't be a better drainer than a DRK.

[Foldypaws]

A BLU can drain 900, once every 5 minutes, at the cost of *not* being able to do every other spell under that JA like double defense, or a 30% defense down + damage, or etc...

In that 5 minutes a DRK with no haste or fastcast gear could cast Drain 5 times and Drain II once. Without hindering their ability to cast any other spell like Absorb-TP or Dread Spikes. If you're not draining at least 150 with Drain, I suggest the problem is not with the job, but with you.

[Deadvinta]

I want to dual wield guns on Corsair.

That is all.

I want to use Cutlasses on Corsair.

That is all.

[Selzak]

A BLU can drain 900, once every 5 minutes, at the cost of *not* being able to do every other spell under that JA like double defense, or a 30% defense down + damage, or etc...

In that 5 minutes a DRK with no haste or fastcast gear could cast Drain 5 times and Drain II once. Without hindering their ability to cast any other spell like Absorb-TP or Dread Spikes. If you're not draining at least 150 with Drain, I suggest the problem is not with the job, but with you.
Coming from a 95DRK (played since 2004) and 95BLU (played since the day it came out), you are wrong. BLU is overpowered, and it seems like SE has been giving away all of the things that DRK begs for but get deemed "overpowered" to BLU for a long time.

The reason? BLU is an easy concept. DRK is more confusing, and they don't care enough about the job to be creative with it. I really think that's what it boils down to.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Aside from giving the defense down effect Drk won't lose to Blu on harder mobs, outside.

There's nothing overpowered about BLU, it suffers from the same shortcomings as any other 1 hander on harder mobs. It's like asking to balance Pld tanking on fodder.

Not to mention using Bloodrake also locks out lolTerror which only lands on fodder anyway.

[idx1]

A BLU can drain 900, once every 5 minutes, at the cost of *not* being able to do every other spell under that JA like double defense, or a 30% defense down + damage, or etc...

In that 5 minutes a DRK with no haste or fastcast gear could cast Drain 5 times and Drain II once. Without hindering their ability to cast any other spell like Absorb-TP or Dread Spikes. If you're not draining at least 150 with Drain, I suggest the problem is not with the job, but with you.

I don't have a DRK.

Anyways, so you're saying a DRK has to be 'working his drains' for 5 minutes straight to 'keep up' with the drain amount that the BLU can do in .01 seconds?

And..we're talking about the DRK that has been draining his whole life yet he couldn't find some sort of way to be better at it.
Blue gets Drain-ga via Blood Saber as well.
DRK can Drain-Attri but BLU got Osmosis as well.

But what I'm trying to discuss is the argument of utility.

Would you rather receive a lump sum of 50,000 dollars, or be paid monthly to reach the same amount?
Sure, you could reduce the delay in which you receive your monthly payments with your fast cast gear and what not, but it will never be that one fat 50,000 paycheck.

It is true with what you said about BLU, if they use Bloodrake, they can't use the other UL spells. However UL spells are pretty situational, and the situation I'm talking about is Drain healing.

Bloodrake can also be skillchained to Darkness, and it also uses a TP modifier that modifies its damage. Used with CA you can pushed well over 900, haven't tried using Efflux with it as I believed I would of over-drained my maxHP.
God knows how much damage/HP you'd get with Azure Lore in effect.
Going off topic.

If DRKs think that DRK can drain just fine as is, then that's that I guess.
I just happened to ask myself "Why am I draining harder than a DRK?"

[Theytak]

DRK should get something that nobody else can do
Drks already complain better than any other job, even lolpretendmeleerdm and whiny smns. thfs don't even complain anymore, I think they've all just given up entirely, lol.

[Metaking]

truth i don't see a lot of blus using bloodrake (a move with-33%def comes to mind as to why) and most drks would probably take offense to being said to only be able to do 150 drain1, well the good ones anyhow >.>;. back on topic tho, bloodrake being a physical move also probably means it can miss.... if your going to compare it to something compare it to relic scythe ws which in 5 mins a drk will have weponskills god knows how many times and daring several thousand more hp. No if anyone has a reason to be mad at blu is drg since we are getting spells that trump agol (tho there still 5 min moves that can miss....)

[Theytak]

Coming with the new update BLU is able to drain 900+, which a DRK can only hope of doing.

I personally disagree with this as much as I would enjoy the prospect on 99BLU.

IF BLU can drain better than a DRK, then DRK should get something that nobody else can do.

Like....Drain-everything-from-yo-fayce.
HP/MP/TP+str/dex/vit/the works.

Balance the numbers so its not literally 12 spells at once.

But a BLU shouldn't be a better drainer than a DRK.


truth i don't see a lot of blus using bloodrake (a move with-33%def comes to mind as to why) and most drks would probably take offense to being said to only be able to do 150 drain1, well the good ones anyhow >.>;. back on topic tho, bloodrake being a physical move also probably means it can miss.... if your going to compare it to something compare it to relic scythe ws which in 5 mins a drk will have weponskills god knows how many times and daring several thousand more hp. No if anyone has a reason to be mad at blu is drg since we are getting spells that trump agol (tho there still 5 min moves that can miss....)

wait what? Someone said drk only drains 150 HP with drain 1? rofl. I break 250~300 HP drains as Pup/Sch in my TP gear, if a drk can't top that with all of their dark magic skill gear and drain enhancing gear, they royally suck.

[Selzak]

wait what? Someone said drk only drains 150 HP with drain 1? rofl. I break 250~300 HP drains as Pup/Sch in my TP gear, if a drk can't top that with all of their dark magic skill gear and drain enhancing gear, they royally suck.
You're draining about as much as anyone is going to Drain regardless of being on DRK or not. The formula is capped and slow to build anyway. Which is sort of the problem. Also, the impact of the spell if very meh at 95. By the way, your post is false by definition since Drain will always randomly be at 50% power. So if you're doing 300HP Drains, your range is actually 150-300HP. This is hard-coded into the formula and no M.Acc can help it.

The main idea here is: Drain and Drain II haven't been able to keep up with levels. Drain II has always been more of a novelty than anything. DRK needs some more useful ways to use its HP, and SE apparently likes BLU a lot more than DRK.

[Neisan_Quetz]

Both drain were uncapped sometime ago after people noticed they still were capped for 75 cap iirc. Their scaling is odd, but this is SE we're talking about. It doesn't help Drk doesn't/can't use dark damage affinity either (whether the hidden effect of dark/pluto's or magian staves). That and having such effect attached to weapons Drk shouldn't/can't use for melee in the first place for obvious reasons.

[Economizer]

It doesn't help Drk doesn't/can't use dark damage affinity either (whether the hidden effect of dark/pluto's or magian staves).

Should be a grip that gives dark affinity as a latent effect that is active when using either a Scythe, Great Sword, or Great Axe. Should also be all elemental affinity shields that cover a combination if not all elements either, but we'll see if SE ever gives us either.

[MissAngie]

Since we're still on DRK:

A trait that randomly triggers a weakened Blood Weapon effect on melee attacks would fit well. (like 5% unmerited)



I totally had this same idea and was discussing this with my bf the other day :)

[Saiken253]

Should be a grip that gives dark affinity as a latent effect that is active when using either a Scythe, Great Sword, or Great Axe. Should also be all elemental affinity shields that cover a combination if not all elements either, but we'll see if SE ever gives us either.

Yes, but DRKs would still use rose/pole/sword or just about any other grip that leans towards melee :<

There needs to be a grip that does something for both, and not something piddly, something significant for both.